September 2, 2025 • 46 mins
Michelle Malawer is a money coach for women. She joins The Besties to explore how unresolved financial issues may create barriers to joy and fulfillment in our lives.
She explains that money struggles affect people at all income levels. Her coaching focuses on understanding the stories and mindsets behind money behaviors, not just numerical solutions. Michelle recognizes that financial shame often prevents us from seeking help or having honest conversations about money so she provides a safe space to delve deeper into her clients ideas about money and financial management.
Michelle offers various coaching options including three and six-month packages, money deep dives, and a free money book club for women
Connect with Michelle Malawer on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellemalawer/
Chapter Markers:
0:00
Meet the Black Boomer Besties
1:29
Introducing Money Coach Michelle Malawer
5:15
Angela's Financial Journey Begins
11:14
The Money Mindset Beyond Math
19:25
Breaking Through Money Shame
28:04
From Debt to Freedom
38:17
Transforming Your Relationship with Money
40:17
Connect with Michelle and resources
Book a free coaching consultation with Angie here:
https://calendly.com/rhythmwigs/more-joy-complimentary-consultation
Want behind the scenes content, Join us on Patreon at $5 or $10 level:
https://patreon.com/user?u=83534204
Get Angie’s eBook:
We’re Too Old for This! The Inquisitive Older Woman’s Guide to Joy http://joystrategy.co/ebook
Visit our website www.blackboomerbesties.com
IG: https://www.instagram.com/blackboomerbestiesfrombrooklyn
Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey Ange, hey Les, How's it going?
It is going well.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good Good.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Today is a day Not only is it a day, but we're
bringing you guys somethingspecial because we are starting
a series.
But you want to tell them, or Ishould tell them.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah, I'll tell them.
I'll tell them.
Can you introduce us, who arewe?
Can you introduce us to thepeople?
They know who we are.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I mean, come on, look at these glasses, look at that,
look at that spaceship earmicrophones that they're used to
.
They know we are the Welcome tothe Black Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm Angela and that's Leslie, my best friend of
almost 50 years.
We're two 60-somethingfree-thinking women and we have
decided to live lives with moreboldness and with more joy, and
(01:05):
we invite you to come along withus.
Today we're going to be doing.
This will be the first of amini-series where we are looking
at what is interfering with ourjoy, what has interfered with
our joy, and this week we'regoing to be talking about
finances, which is somethingthat interferes with my joy all
(01:28):
the time.
So we have brought MichelleMalauer.
You guys have heard me talkabout my money coach, money
coach, money coach, money coach,money coach.
This is she.
This is she, and Michelle isyou know.
When I talk about money coach,you know you can have a coach
(01:50):
that teaches you how to makemoney.
Some people call those abusiness coach.
You can have a coach thatteaches you how to manage the
money that you have, not afinancial planner.
We're talking about managingyour money.
And Michelle oh, she wasrecommended by someone.
I'm going to pause there amoment because, listen, y'all
(02:12):
need to get in community withpeople who are going to support
your dreams.
That's true.
I met Michelle through acommunity, the Exodus Summit
community.
There was someone there namedMaya who introduced me to
Michelle, told me a little bitabout what she does, and it was
(02:33):
at a time when I was ready to dothe work the hard, mentally
taxing work of getting my moneytogether, and Michelle was the
perfect person for me.
So, because we like to sharejoy here on this podcast, we're
bringing her to you.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm going to introduce Michelle Malauer, and
what Ange is saying is real.
Ange has conquered, actually, astruggle I would almost call it
a stronghold that she has hadfor decades.
And when we say that she has amoney coach, we're not talking
(03:15):
about those of us who don'tnecessarily have enough money,
about how to make more orwhatever.
It's more about a mindset whichyou're going to learn in a
minute.
So, michelle Malewa, she's amoney coach who helps
high-earning women feel likeadults with their money, build
(03:36):
self-trust and unleash theirimagination to live their best,
well-funded lives.
She believes that womenwielding power with money will
change the world.
Her tagline money confidence forwomen who mean business.
Instead of telling clients whatto do, she digs deep to help
(03:59):
them use their money in a waythat feels right to them their
money in a way that feels rightto them.
With clients ranging from ages30 to 70, michelle has helped
women launch a side business,ask for their fair share in a
divorce settlement and feel moreis possible from life.
(04:20):
Her clients consistently reportfeeling relief, feeling
inspired and gaining extramental bandwidth to focus on
what matters most.
And there's more, but I'm goingto bring to you this lovely
lady and our guest, michelleMalawa.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Welcome.
Thank you so much, Leslie.
Thank you, Angela.
It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It's great to have you, as is pretty common, on our
podcast.
You all know that we speaktruth and we sometimes get into
(05:13):
very vulnerable personal topics.
And I'm prepared to do thatwith this conversation because,
as Michelle's bio laid out,regardless of our education,
regardless of our experiences,you know we're parents, we have
these roles of leadership in ourchurch, at our jobs, in
community.
You could still struggle whenit comes to things having to do
(05:35):
with money, and I will besharing some personal examples
of what Michelle helped me tomove through, what Michelle
helped me to to move through.
And you know when, when Desleyand I talk about joy, we really
want you to understand that joyisn't the happy place.
Joy is the doing what it takesto have sustained, sustained
(06:03):
fulfillment in your life.
And I was lacking that becausethere were some pretty big
financial things that I was notfacing and sometimes, when we
have money, that becomes thecrutch for us.
Not facing money issues right,Because it kind of protects.
(06:27):
So, Michelle, if you can kindof talk about, you know the
types of clients that you seeand some of the things that
really interfere that you helppeople to break through.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah, I've.
I started coaching last yearthe beginning of 2024, and I've
had an array of clients.
So, for example, I've hadclients who make only $40,000
and are also $40,000 in debt.
I've had clients who make$100,000 and have $80,000 in
(07:01):
debt and their friends don'tknow about it the 80k in debt
and their friends don't knowabout it.
And they only discovered mebecause a friend was like would
you like to speak to a moneycoach, having no idea what
they've been through?
Um, and then also, on the otherside, I've worked with women who
have a lot of money.
You know, I've worked withsomeone from a financial company
(07:23):
.
She has a few million and herfinancial advisor said to her
hey, you need to get comfortablespending money, spend $20,000.
No matter what happens to themarket, you're fine, spend this
$20,000.
So with her, we started todesign what would be meaningful
(07:46):
for her to spend it, becauseshe's not very materialistic, so
it's not like she wanted to goget a Gucci purse or something
like that.
So it was more curatingexperiences that were meaningful
to her, like, does she want tothrow a 90th party for her
parents?
Does she want to take them on atrip to Mexico for a family
(08:08):
reunion that would create anexperience, that would create
memories.
And then also, you mentioned thewoman going through a divorce.
I helped her.
She came to me.
Unfortunately, women in societywere conditioned to not ask for
a lot, were conditioned not towant a lot, and she felt bad
(08:32):
asking for 50% of the maritalassets even though she spent 30
years running the home raisingthe kid doing we calculated the
value of her invisible labor.
We calculated the value of herinvisible labor.
It was $4 million, calculatingif they had hired a chauffeur,
if her husband didn't reallyhave a lot of friends.
(08:54):
So she was essentially histherapist.
So I've run the gamut, but Iwould say what I love most is
the unleashing of theimagination.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So let me tell you how that was unleashed for me.
So you all know that I'm makingplans to move abroad.
It's a big, audacious goal andthat's how I move in the world.
I move with big, audaciousgoals.
They command me forward, theyare spirit led.
(09:32):
They become a, not a kind ofshould I do it.
They become a leading yeah,this is what you're going to do,
and, at the end of the day,these types of things take money
(09:53):
, not only money to do them, butmoney and debt become these
albatrosses, these anchors thathold you in place.
And sometimes you do want to dothese exciting things, and
what's stopping you is not thedesire to do them.
What's stopping you is how canI do them when I have this money
(10:16):
on my back, this debt on myback, this not knowing if I have
enough.
This, you know, and I think oneof the things I shared with
Michelle is it was starting tomake me feel like what kind of
adulting, what kind of adult areyou when you can't take care of
(10:37):
things like this?
Right, you keep kicking the candown the you know, down the
lane and not facing it.
But because my joy was leadingme to move abroad and I did not.
(10:58):
I do not want to take a lot ofdebt with me when I move abroad.
When Maya brought Michelle andher services to my attention.
It was like got it.
This is what I need to get outof the way so that I could more
joyfully move abroad.
And so it's real stuff right.
For me it was a big school loan, it was getting my taxes done,
(11:24):
and you know we can talk aboutwhy those things were in the way
, but it's really that they werein the way, Right, and
(11:55):
Michelle's work, I thinkprobably, Michelle.
It was like to get hard, butthere was something that was
compelling me forward, and soyou have to do the hard stuff to
get to that place.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yes, and Angela, I just want to say about that and
Angela, I just want to say aboutthat.
What I really love about thework that I do is a lot of
people have a vision and thenthey have their day-to-day life
and it's how do you marry thetwo, how do you bridge it?
And some people only live inthe vision.
Some people only live in theday-to-day.
(12:35):
But it's going through theday-to-day slog, the actions,
action after action, whileholding the vision.
So it's important to marry bothaspects.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right, right, Absolutely.
And I got to tell you onesecond.
Let me just say Michelle heldmy feet to the fire, right?
She so challenged me to.
You know the things, when yousay it to yourself or when you
meditate or pray about it, youhave this way of framing it and
(13:14):
Michelle was constantly askingme why, and it was really
challenging.
Like I'm like what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Why isn't it obvious?
Isn't it obvious that thosetypes of feelings that you get,
Isn't it obvious, Of course, andshe pushed me through some
(13:38):
really difficult, like I'venever been challenged on this
before, Michelle.
What do you think you are?
What do you mean?
I'm so glad she did that foryou.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Because you do that to me too.
Oh okay, so good, Whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
It doesn't matter whether you have it or not.
This is not about gaining moneyor whether you you kind of feel
like, like you have enough, youcan.
You can have all the money thatyou want to have right and
still have these barriers right.
(14:14):
Or if, if you, if you don't eventhink about them as barriers,
if you think about them cause.
One of my issues was money isthere to be spent for my family.
If my family needs something,I'm going to get it for them.
I didn't have an issue withoverspending on clothes or bags
(14:35):
or that type of thing.
My thing was if there wassomeone in need and I had it,
I'm giving it right, and thatresulted in me not tracking.
I would make fun of Leslie,right?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yes, you did.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
When Leslie had her hoopty.
When Leslie had her hoopty,we've talked about her powder
blue Honda that she used todrive.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Right With the crate in the back that was holding up
the seat.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
The seat didn't work.
There was no grill Right.
I parked it in a garage onetime and went to give the guy a
tip and he gave the tip back.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So the point is but she was always the same person.
So the point is but, but shewas always the same person.
She managed her money at thatpoint in her life in the same
way that she manages it now.
Yeah, and so this has nothingto do with how much money you
have or don't have.
This hat has to do with a block.
And if one other person says tome, it's just math, I know math
, I'm a math person, I'm anengineer, I know math, I'm a
(15:37):
math person, I'm an engineer, Iknow math.
This is not about addition andsubtraction and tracking.
It's about what are the storiesaround money that you have
that's what Michelle helped meto face and look at how are they
interfering with what you wantin your future.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
So, michelle, I have a question Wait.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I have a question so you.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
this is so good, michelle.
You've worked in the financialindustry.
You've worked at E-Trade,morgan Stanley, finra, pimco, so
you have that money numbersbackground.
How did you know that this wasmore than just knowing numbers
that you really had to get intothe head of your clients?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
That's a great question.
I think it's very similar tofood and diets.
We know we need to eat less, weknow we should eat less ice
cream, and I'm still getting theUber Eats of Ben and Jerry's to
my apartment, I know.
So there's a big block, that'sa great analogy.
(16:51):
Yeah, and I realized, you know,my father tried to help me
budget a little bit and he wouldtell me that I'm terrible with
money and it never helped.
And so I realized there'sreally a need for a deep dive
and really understanding someoneand understanding their
(17:12):
motivations and what's drivingthem to do something.
I'll just give you an example.
Angela, you mentionedovergiving to family.
I think many women overgive.
So I would never tell a clientyou know, stop giving this
amount of money to your grownchild.
But I might say who are you ifyou are not subsidizing your
(17:34):
child's rent?
What does paying your child'srent give you?
What does it do for you?
So through the questions, theysee, oh, they have this identity
as being the supporter.
It's actually hurting the childbecause the child is not going
(17:55):
through phases of developmentthat they should go through.
But they just never saw thatbecause they never had the
questions that I was asking them.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, those wretched questions.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, I really put me through the wringer.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
She put me through it and I'm so glad that you did.
I'm so glad I'm a differentperson.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I have to tell you, I'm a different person.
You've always been brave inthat way, you, you, you know I'm
a little less brave.
Well, in many ways, in that Idon't, I kind of run away from
things and I don't face thingsuntil I have to very often, but
I love the way that you justlike dig in and that's really
(18:40):
proud of you in that way.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
She did an amazing job.
I just want to brag for her.
Every session she worked sohard.
She did all the actions.
She contacted whatever entityshe had to contact.
She did what she had to do andat one point she was like
there's no going back becauseshe saw it needed to do whatever
(19:02):
.
Phone numbers, things like that.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
A real coach.
Oh, let me tell you.
Let me tell you, and you betterhave that done before you come
back, like she didn't yell at meor anything like that, but you
just knew that if you just didwhat she said, Right and then
when you start seeing theresults, if you make phone,
calls and they go your way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Exactly.
I used to tell a friend of mine, like stop running away from
the IRS.
Listen, I have gotten on somany payment plans with them.
They are fine people to talk to.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
They're really nice, they work with you.
They're really nice, they workwith you.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And this person would run away.
I'm not calling them, don'tmuddy the waters and don't and
it was like stop it.
You got to stop running fromthese people.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
You can't hide you know, yeah, but.
I think, for some of us, I'mgoing to say, les, that, for
people who are worried more likeme, going to say, les, that for
people who are wired more likeme, who, it's just like Michelle
gave the analogy about the icecream right.
You can tell people that if youwant to lose weight, you have
to stop eating ice cream, but atsome point it's like they know
(20:33):
that they are a size.
They're a bigger size than theywant to be.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
That's not what's helping.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
And that's why you need a coach and I see that in
medicine too.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's like why am I telling people to you know you
need to quit smoking.
You know you need to eat less.
You know I, who has alwaysstruggled with weight, Don't
tell me exactly that.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the part that Michelle
just held my hand.
I knew that she really saw mebecause she allowed me to push
(21:22):
back Right.
There were times when we wouldhave what they call a very
robust dialogue, and a part ofit is that I felt that it was
important for me to tellMichelle what I didn't want also
(21:44):
right.
One of the things that I didn'twant is I didn't want to make
money, just to make money, right, I just don't.
That is not where I am in mylife right now.
Where I am in my life right nowand this is something that
Michelle's working with Michellehelped me to do is to see how
much money do I need to make tolive the way I want to live, and
(22:08):
I'm good and I'm good.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So the fight to make more, more, more, more.
You didn't have that, I didn'thave that, but I had to.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
she had to create space for me to be able to say
that, because a part of whatgets in the way is oh, you're
supposed to have ambition,you're supposed to want more,
you can make more, so why don'tyou?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And those types of things.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And that's not where I am anymore.
Right, I did all of that stuff,all of that hustle, all of that
.
I have lived that life and inthis phase I no longer wanted
that, and so what I hope youguys are hearing is you know,
this type of coaching becomesthis really intimate and also
(22:56):
it's kind of like an easingforward out of a rut that I was
in around these things that wasthat were really in the way of
the joy that I wanted to have,and I know, Michelle, that that
a part of your story is youhaving been in a position where
debt was, was a oh boy.
(23:18):
Was a.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Oh boy, it was terrible.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, share that with us if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah.
So in my 20s I got my firstcredit card when I was about
20-ish, before I went abroad toParis during college.
And there's just somethingabout credit cards.
I always ran them up to thelimit and then I paid them down
a little bit, got to the top,paid it all off.
(23:47):
They would extend my credit andit was just.
It was a terrible cycle, youknow.
There were points where I onlyhad $5 to the limit and I
couldn't get a latte because alatte costs $6.
And I was a severe, severeunder earner.
I had no belief in my earningcapacity All my life.
(24:08):
My father had provided for meand he's like the head of the
household, so I had absorbed thenotion.
You know, I get money from him,I can't provide for myself.
So it was really bad for manyyears and I got to the point
where I was reading a book.
They suggested going to acertain debt recovery program.
(24:30):
I worked that program for 10years.
Every Saturday I went to ameeting and it turned my life
around.
And so now you know I track mynumbers.
I have different categories.
I was able to to pay for incash a three-day stay at a
(24:50):
resort for my five-yearanniversary with my partner.
But life, life is so small whenyou're, when you're burdened
with debt and you feel choked.
You feel there's no way out.
And that's actually why Iprefer working now with people
with lesser debt or who don'tfeel as choked, because it's
(25:13):
very hard to make thattransition from suffocation to
imagination Very difficult.
Wow, it can be done, obviously,but it's a lot of work and a
lot of people aren't ready to doit.
Wow, mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I I think it's fascinating that your personal
experience so moved you that youwant to help people to avoid or
to get out of that situation.
That you were, that you were inright, that you um, it's it, it
(25:53):
it has become your, in a sense,your life's work in your
business to help women out ofsituations.
You could have just gottenhappy and just run off with your
no dead self.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Absolutely, but it's.
It's because I know the senseof powerlessness and I felt
powerless since a young child,as a girl.
It's very easy to feelpowerless as a woman in this
patriarchal society and I hatethat feeling, and so my life's
work is for me to becomepowerful, to help women step
(26:36):
into their power.
So I couldn't just leave it,because I know how terrible it
is and I don't ever want anyoneto feel that way.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right, it's amazing, I tell you.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Let me just tell you a couple of things that are so
poignant about your story Isthat I just heard you say that
you still employ some of themethods that got you out of the
trouble, and you said I track it.
I heard you use the wordtracking and immediately I
(27:12):
thought about weight loss anddieting and something that has
been a lifelong issue andstruggle for me, and I've had
weight loss more recently overthe last couple of years, but I
used to lament that well, I'velost the weight, now I can relax
(27:32):
and what I've realized is thatweight control and healthy
living it's a lifelong thing.
It's not something that's oneand done.
And you, here you are withfinances.
You've conquered the beast Yetand still it's innate in you and
(27:54):
it's part of your regular lifepractice and I really appreciate
that, because what you realize,what I also heard you say, is
that you've maxed out your cards, but then you've paid them off
also, but that wasn't the end ofyour struggle.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Right, right, and also Leslie.
I would say it's a relationship.
I have a relationship with mymoney and it requires daily and
weekly care.
I have a relationship with mypartner.
I'm working on my relationshipwith my food.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I was just going to say me and food.
Right now we're not speakingthat well right now.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I had a great experience.
Actually, one of my firstclients was a chef and weight
loss coach, and so she coachedme on eating and I coached her
on money.
Her name was Melanie and I'lltell you why it worked.
Because she never told me Icouldn't eat my ice cream.
She knew if she told me I wouldbe out and she worked with me.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
And Ange, that's just what you said.
I love the fact that you andMichelle have been able to have
a two-way dialogue.
It's not just her telling youwhat to do, that's right.
You're telling her what worksfor you that's right, and what
best way to get through to you.
And you've been transformed.
I mean, I hear you say I needto look at my money, I'm going
(29:19):
to have a date with my money,and these kind of language like
what are you who?
What did you do with my friend?
Yeah, it's really something.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
It's, it's, it's, it's something, and you know it
put me in such a position offeeling like I have control over
things that I just feltpowerless over.
And that's probably the mostsignificant takeaway is that
(29:57):
sometimes it's a phone call thatyou have to make, and when you
make it is the best time to makethat call, right, even if you
haven't done it in four years.
Today is better than six yearsfrom now.
Right, you make that phone calland you speak to that person.
(30:22):
Right, you make that phone calland you speak to that person.
I never thought that some ofthe contacts that Michelle gave
me, I never thought someonewould actually answer the phone.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's like it's a real person and they really want to
help you, but that's what I wasgoing to say.
I've had experiences where I'mshocked that they're so nice,
like they're not personally outto get me Right, like they're
not mad at me.
You know, people think aboutthings like that.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
You know if you call a creditor.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
You think that they're angry with you.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, they're not angry with you, right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Right, right.
And Angela, I just want to addto that I think what each action
does is it builds on itself,and then, with each action, you
are building your self-esteem,because self-esteem is built on
action.
So every time you make thephone call, every time you track
(31:17):
your numbers, it's a vote foryour identity as a financially a
person who handles theirfinances well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, and I have to use the word shame because it
was such a dominant part of myown kind of sensitivity around
this Right, and it got in theway of me talking about it.
You know, I could talk toLeslie about it.
(31:49):
Leslie is my bestie.
There was still parts of thisthat Leslie doesn't know.
You know, because you know, you, you carry this, this shame,
and when Michelle talks aboutreleasing mental capacity,
that's some of what getsreleased.
Wow, right, if you're kind ofwalking around, you know, you
(32:12):
know that you have this thingthat is in the way.
And so when you talk, when youact like, oh, everything is
great when you're dressed nicelyand you, you know you can, and
you know that there's a stuffthat you're like oh, everything
is great when you're dressednicely and you know that there's
this stuff that you're notdealing with.
It creates a level of shame Atleast it did for me to be
completely honest and you wantedto live a more honest life.
(32:35):
I did.
I'm coming on here talkingabout joy and I got to tell you
when I talk about joy and I andI gotta tell you when I talk
about joy compelling you to dothings, joy compelled me to get
the help I needed so I could dothis.
It was, it was a compelling.
You are a lie if you're nottaking care of this right and
(32:59):
that never sit well with me.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
That doesn't say you can't sleep well, you can't look
at yourself well in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Michelle.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
I have a question.
You are so capable andcomfortable with money
management and financialmanagement.
How, with that level ofconfidence, how do you address a
person that feels so much shamearound it?
You know there's definitely afeeling could be a feeling of a
(33:30):
power differential.
How do you convey that level ofcompassion when you speak to
clients that come to you with somuch shame and baggage?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Leslie, you're saying a client might feel that I'm
above them.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Well sure, and certainly way more capable than
they could ever be.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
That's interesting.
I've never thought about itthat way, but I would say
because I really try to listenmore than I talk.
In general, I try to listenmore and so I people feel heard.
I try very hard not tointerrupt and sometimes,
especially towards the beginning, they just need to go on for 30
(34:17):
minutes about all the thingsthat never happened to me?
no, yeah, all the thing, and Iknow the things that never
happened to me.
No, all the things.
And I know the things have tocome out and I think about the
shame, angela it's.
People don't have a space toair this stuff out, so it gets.
Who can you talk to?
You can't talk to anyone.
Yeah, if you don't have money,it's embarrassing.
(34:39):
If you have money, you feel bad.
You feel bad telling yourfriends who have less.
So everyone needs a space wherethey can be fully honest about
money and I I personally, andthen jelly, you can tell me if
this is incorrect or not but Ifeel like having the space to
fully say the things.
Have someone witness you andnot run and not think you're the
(35:02):
worst, cause you might betelling yourself you're the
things.
Have someone witness you andnot run and not think you're the
worst because you might betelling yourself you're the
worst.
But I just 20 minutes agotalked to another client who has
more debt.
So to me there's nothing to beshameful about.
It's just like you know.
And also I just want to say welive in America, which really
promotes going into debt.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
So it's not even a personal thing.
Yeah yeah, the system isdesigned to keep you in debt,
from advertising credit cards tostudents in college.
I just remember getting myfirst credit card when I was in
college and I know I was notworking at the time, you know.
So I did not have any abilityto pay it back, and you know,
(35:45):
obviously I had been strugglingfor a number of years after that
to speak and just giving youthis, this, this, this space to
be completely vulnerable,without judgment, right, this
(36:09):
nonjudgmental space.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
One thing that I want to say about that is that you,
that you, sometimes the thingthat gets you to really commit
to something is paying for it.
(36:33):
And this just hear me out rightsometimes, when we get things
for free or nominal cost $59.99or whatever it does not keep us
committed.
(36:53):
Oh, if it were that valuable,it would cost more.
Or, you know, I don't care if Idon't show up because it was
free or it was just this, if Ilose the $59, I don't care, I'm
not going to show up.
And even if you do care, butsomething else you gave
something else a priorityinstead of coming to a session,
(37:14):
right, and so a part of what wasreally helpful for me is that
Michelle ain't free, she's notfree, she's good, and a part of
paying for it, it makes youcommit to the transformation
(37:37):
that you are putting yourself onthe journey too right.
You pay for the service it is.
I have to tell you, as God ismy witness, I could have paid 10
(37:59):
times the fee to get the reliefthat I got in working with.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Michelle, I'm just going to be honest with you, oh
like let's wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
It is, it is I know you, yeah, you, you know me and
and you know that, um, you knowwhen I, when I want to do
something, I commit and it wasMichelle did not have an easy
(38:35):
time of it with me by sayingthat is that, um, it was hard
for me to peel back, it was hardfor me to peel back, um, but
(39:04):
she has a way of um allowing meto to to do it in the way that I
did it Right, and I feel likeher services are so personalized
, her way of of of seeing me.
I talk sometimes on thispodcast about people who are
wired differently.
Me and Michelle are wired verydifferently, as you know, know
me and Leslie wired verydifferently, and so I could have
said, oh, um, you know I'mfrustrated.
(39:27):
I'm not gonna do this anymorebecause I don't like the way
that she's asking me questions,but I really and you know this
about I was like, wait a minute,I'm paying her to ask me these
types of questions, like I amliterally in this to be
(39:47):
challenged in this way.
Yeah, If.
I did it myself.
I would be where I am.
That's a brave move.
And I was like I'm literallypaying her to be just who she is
for me.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
And she showed up and she did the damn thing and she
showed me how to do the damnthing and, um, yeah, so very
grateful, very grateful.
Uh, michelle, how do peoplework with you?
What's the best way for them toreach you?
Speaker 3 (40:20):
um, if you can share that and any other things about
your, your services, that youwant to tell our audience about,
sure, they can reach me onlinkedin uh, I believe my handle
will be in the show notes,michelle mallor and just just
message me on linkedin.
Connect with me right now.
That's the only platform that Iuse.
(40:42):
I'll say that, angela, we did.
I think the three-monthcoaching package I have
three-month coaching packages,six months, six months is to
really solidify whatevertransformation you're seeking.
I tend to notice that ifsomeone does three months and
they don't continue, they'restill wobbly, so they'll
(41:06):
backslide.
For clients who already tracktheir money and pretty much have
things in order, I do a moneydeep dive for two hours where I
take a look at your numbers.
I see what you can be doingbetter.
I hope you tell me your dreams.
Maybe we can get there fasterif we just move a few things
around.
And I also have a free moneybook club for women, which I
(41:31):
absolutely love.
You don't need to read the book.
It's every other month or so,and what's great about that is
one.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
You don't have to read the book.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, I give a recap and an overview and then I lead
a discussion in a way where youget excited about the book but
you don't need to read it, andit's really for women who want a
space to feel comfortabletalking about money and to feel
powerful with money.
So it's a space where people gobecause they they can't have
(42:01):
these conversations with theirfriends, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
We need more of that.
We need more people talkingabout money.
You know, money I mean inrelationships it causes problems
, especially when there's anincome disparity.
Especially when there's anincome disparity there's when
with friends, you know there'sif.
If you know, as a physician Imake more than many people, so
(42:30):
it's sometimes it's really hardand I have money issues too.
But it's hard for me to talkabout those issues to people who
have less because I used tothink, like many, it's like
money is the solution to theproblem.
It is not.
It is not.
Yet once you have money, thenyou realize it.
(42:52):
If you don't have it, then youthink money is the.
I always thought that havingmore money was the key.
So I think if we could havenon-judgmental conversations,
just bring these conversationsinto our everyday I'm not
getting paid what I'm worth andthen change is made.
But that all starts with aconversation and knowing how
(43:33):
much your partner, yourcolleague, is making.
Yeah, exactly, and we justdon't do that.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
And also I'll say yes .
And also we need spaces,containers, where there's an
understanding of, yes, it'sacceptable to talk, yes, you can
name your salary, yes, you canname your debt, and the
containers give the permissionand kind of hold the
conversation.
Permission and kind of hold theconversation, because it could
(44:05):
be you want to have an openconversation about money with a
friend who is just not there yet, you know, and then it's not
comfortable or good for eitherone of you, exactly, exactly and
you know you don't, you don'twant to put pressure on on
someone.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
You know if this is kind of your issue, you know,
get a coach get a shot.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
I love the fact that we frame this in a way that this
is can unlock your path to ajoyful life that you want to
live.
Yeah, and you'll see how thisties into the other episodes in
this series about some of thethings that are really keeping
you from getting on that pathMoney and just talking about it,
(44:55):
and the things that yourbarriers in terms of thinking
about money is only one way,that one thing that can prevent
you from living in a more joyfullife.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
So we thank you for being here, Michelle.
I'm so happy to finally havemet you, the guru who changed my
bestie's life.
It's been such a pleasure andis going to pull her closer to
leaving me and moving abroadbefore me.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
You will never be rid of me.
Never be rid of me.
Michelle, thank you for allthat you do.
Thank you for being strong andfor reaching back and helping
those who are still in thestruggle that you no longer have
.
That I no longer have.
I mean, when I talk about theshame that is no longer there I
(45:49):
can so openly talk about.
Look, I'm on a podcast talkingabout my money.
Yeah, that's crazy.
What the hell?
Who?
Speaker 1 (45:59):
knew yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
What the hell.
So I?
Speaker 1 (46:02):
love that you.
Thank you so much angela.
Thank you, leslie, it's beenwonderful to be here and what
I'll also say is my name also ismichelle and we both spell it
properly with two l's properly.
I'll just say thank you again.
And this has been anotherepisode of Black Boomer Besties
(46:24):
from Brooklyn, brooklyn.
Hey Ange, hey Les, How's it going?
It is going well.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good Good.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Today is a day Not only is it a day, but we're
bringing you guys somethingspecial because we are starting
a series.
But you want to tell them, or Ishould tell them.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah, I'll tell them.
I'll tell them.
Can you introduce us, who arewe?
Can you introduce us to thepeople?
They know who we are.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I mean, come on, look at these glasses, look at that,
look at that spaceship earmicrophones that they're used to
.
They know we are the Welcome tothe Black Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm Angela and that's Leslie, my best friend of
almost 50 years.
We're two 60-somethingfree-thinking women and we have
decided to live lives with moreboldness and with more joy, and
(01:05):
we invite you to come along withus.
Today we're going to be doing.
This will be the first of amini-series where we are looking
at what is interfering with ourjoy, what has interfered with
our joy, and this week we'regoing to be talking about
finances, which is somethingthat interferes with my joy all
(01:28):
the time.
So we have brought MichelleMalauer.
You guys have heard me talkabout my money coach, money
coach, money coach, money coach,money coach.
This is she.
This is she, and Michelle isyou know.
When I talk about money coach,you know you can have a coach
(01:50):
that teaches you how to makemoney.
Some people call those abusiness coach.
You can have a coach thatteaches you how to manage the
money that you have, not afinancial planner.
We're talking about managingyour money.
And Michelle oh, she wasrecommended by someone.
I'm going to pause there amoment because, listen, y'all
(02:12):
need to get in community withpeople who are going to support
your dreams.
That's true.
I met Michelle through acommunity, the Exodus Summit
community.
There was someone there namedMaya who introduced me to
Michelle, told me a little bitabout what she does, and it was
(02:33):
at a time when I was ready to dothe work the hard, mentally
taxing work of getting my moneytogether, and Michelle was the
perfect person for me.
So, because we like to sharejoy here on this podcast, we're
bringing her to you.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm going to introduce Michelle Malauer, and
what Ange is saying is real.
Ange has conquered, actually, astruggle I would almost call it
a stronghold that she has hadfor decades.
And when we say that she has amoney coach, we're not talking
(03:15):
about those of us who don'tnecessarily have enough money,
about how to make more orwhatever.
It's more about a mindset whichyou're going to learn in a
minute.
So, michelle Malewa, she's amoney coach who helps
high-earning women feel likeadults with their money, build
(03:36):
self-trust and unleash theirimagination to live their best,
well-funded lives.
She believes that womenwielding power with money will
change the world.
Her tagline money confidence forwomen who mean business.
Instead of telling clients whatto do, she digs deep to help
(03:59):
them use their money in a waythat feels right to them their
money in a way that feels rightto them.
With clients ranging from ages30 to 70, michelle has helped
women launch a side business,ask for their fair share in a
divorce settlement and feel moreis possible from life.
(04:20):
Her clients consistently reportfeeling relief, feeling
inspired and gaining extramental bandwidth to focus on
what matters most.
And there's more, but I'm goingto bring to you this lovely
lady and our guest, michelleMalawa.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Welcome.
Thank you so much, Leslie.
Thank you, Angela.
It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It's great to have you, as is pretty common, on our
podcast.
You all know that we speaktruth and we sometimes get into
(05:13):
very vulnerable personal topics.
And I'm prepared to do thatwith this conversation because,
as Michelle's bio laid out,regardless of our education,
regardless of our experiences,you know we're parents, we have
these roles of leadership in ourchurch, at our jobs, in
community.
You could still struggle whenit comes to things having to do
(05:35):
with money, and I will besharing some personal examples
of what Michelle helped me tomove through, what Michelle
helped me to to move through.
And you know when, when Desleyand I talk about joy, we really
want you to understand that joyisn't the happy place.
Joy is the doing what it takesto have sustained, sustained
(06:03):
fulfillment in your life.
And I was lacking that becausethere were some pretty big
financial things that I was notfacing and sometimes, when we
have money, that becomes thecrutch for us.
Not facing money issues right,Because it kind of protects.
(06:27):
So, Michelle, if you can kindof talk about, you know the
types of clients that you seeand some of the things that
really interfere that you helppeople to break through.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah, I've.
I started coaching last yearthe beginning of 2024, and I've
had an array of clients.
So, for example, I've hadclients who make only $40,000
and are also $40,000 in debt.
I've had clients who make$100,000 and have $80,000 in
(07:01):
debt and their friends don'tknow about it the 80k in debt
and their friends don't knowabout it.
And they only discovered mebecause a friend was like would
you like to speak to a moneycoach, having no idea what
they've been through?
Um, and then also, on the otherside, I've worked with women who
have a lot of money.
You know, I've worked withsomeone from a financial company
(07:23):
.
She has a few million and herfinancial advisor said to her
hey, you need to get comfortablespending money, spend $20,000.
No matter what happens to themarket, you're fine, spend this
$20,000.
So with her, we started todesign what would be meaningful
(07:46):
for her to spend it, becauseshe's not very materialistic, so
it's not like she wanted to goget a Gucci purse or something
like that.
So it was more curatingexperiences that were meaningful
to her, like, does she want tothrow a 90th party for her
parents?
Does she want to take them on atrip to Mexico for a family
(08:08):
reunion that would create anexperience, that would create
memories.
And then also, you mentioned thewoman going through a divorce.
I helped her.
She came to me.
Unfortunately, women in societywere conditioned to not ask for
a lot, were conditioned not towant a lot, and she felt bad
(08:32):
asking for 50% of the maritalassets even though she spent 30
years running the home raisingthe kid doing we calculated the
value of her invisible labor.
We calculated the value of herinvisible labor.
It was $4 million, calculatingif they had hired a chauffeur,
if her husband didn't reallyhave a lot of friends.
(08:54):
So she was essentially histherapist.
So I've run the gamut, but Iwould say what I love most is
the unleashing of theimagination.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So let me tell you how that was unleashed for me.
So you all know that I'm makingplans to move abroad.
It's a big, audacious goal andthat's how I move in the world.
I move with big, audaciousgoals.
They command me forward, theyare spirit led.
(09:32):
They become a, not a kind ofshould I do it.
They become a leading yeah,this is what you're going to do,
and, at the end of the day,these types of things take money
(09:53):
, not only money to do them, butmoney and debt become these
albatrosses, these anchors thathold you in place.
And sometimes you do want to dothese exciting things, and
what's stopping you is not thedesire to do them.
What's stopping you is how canI do them when I have this money
(10:16):
on my back, this debt on myback, this not knowing if I have
enough.
This, you know, and I think oneof the things I shared with
Michelle is it was starting tomake me feel like what kind of
adulting, what kind of adult areyou when you can't take care of
(10:37):
things like this?
Right, you keep kicking the candown the you know, down the
lane and not facing it.
But because my joy was leadingme to move abroad and I did not.
(10:58):
I do not want to take a lot ofdebt with me when I move abroad.
When Maya brought Michelle andher services to my attention.
It was like got it.
This is what I need to get outof the way so that I could more
joyfully move abroad.
And so it's real stuff right.
For me it was a big school loan, it was getting my taxes done,
(11:24):
and you know we can talk aboutwhy those things were in the way
, but it's really that they werein the way, Right, and
(11:55):
Michelle's work, I thinkprobably, Michelle.
It was like to get hard, butthere was something that was
compelling me forward, and soyou have to do the hard stuff to
get to that place.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yes, and Angela, I just want to say about that and
Angela, I just want to say aboutthat.
What I really love about thework that I do is a lot of
people have a vision and thenthey have their day-to-day life
and it's how do you marry thetwo, how do you bridge it?
And some people only live inthe vision.
Some people only live in theday-to-day.
(12:35):
But it's going through theday-to-day slog, the actions,
action after action, whileholding the vision.
So it's important to marry bothaspects.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right, right, Absolutely.
And I got to tell you onesecond.
Let me just say Michelle heldmy feet to the fire, right?
She so challenged me to.
You know the things, when yousay it to yourself or when you
meditate or pray about it, youhave this way of framing it and
(13:14):
Michelle was constantly askingme why, and it was really
challenging.
Like I'm like what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Why isn't it obvious?
Isn't it obvious that thosetypes of feelings that you get,
Isn't it obvious, Of course, andshe pushed me through some
(13:38):
really difficult, like I'venever been challenged on this
before, Michelle.
What do you think you are?
What do you mean?
I'm so glad she did that foryou.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Because you do that to me too.
Oh okay, so good, Whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
It doesn't matter whether you have it or not.
This is not about gaining moneyor whether you you kind of feel
like, like you have enough, youcan.
You can have all the money thatyou want to have right and
still have these barriers right.
(14:14):
Or if, if you, if you don't eventhink about them as barriers,
if you think about them cause.
One of my issues was money isthere to be spent for my family.
If my family needs something,I'm going to get it for them.
I didn't have an issue withoverspending on clothes or bags
(14:35):
or that type of thing.
My thing was if there wassomeone in need and I had it,
I'm giving it right, and thatresulted in me not tracking.
I would make fun of Leslie,right?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yes, you did.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
When Leslie had her hoopty.
When Leslie had her hoopty,we've talked about her powder
blue Honda that she used todrive.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Right With the crate in the back that was holding up
the seat.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
The seat didn't work.
There was no grill Right.
I parked it in a garage onetime and went to give the guy a
tip and he gave the tip back.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So the point is but she was always the same person.
So the point is but, but shewas always the same person.
She managed her money at thatpoint in her life in the same
way that she manages it now.
Yeah, and so this has nothingto do with how much money you
have or don't have.
This hat has to do with a block.
And if one other person says tome, it's just math, I know math
, I'm a math person, I'm anengineer, I know math, I'm a
(15:37):
math person, I'm an engineer, Iknow math.
This is not about addition andsubtraction and tracking.
It's about what are the storiesaround money that you have
that's what Michelle helped meto face and look at how are they
interfering with what you wantin your future.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
So, michelle, I have a question Wait.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I have a question so you.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
this is so good, michelle.
You've worked in the financialindustry.
You've worked at E-Trade,morgan Stanley, finra, pimco, so
you have that money numbersbackground.
How did you know that this wasmore than just knowing numbers
that you really had to get intothe head of your clients?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
That's a great question.
I think it's very similar tofood and diets.
We know we need to eat less, weknow we should eat less ice
cream, and I'm still getting theUber Eats of Ben and Jerry's to
my apartment, I know.
So there's a big block, that'sa great analogy.
(16:51):
Yeah, and I realized, you know,my father tried to help me
budget a little bit and he wouldtell me that I'm terrible with
money and it never helped.
And so I realized there'sreally a need for a deep dive
and really understanding someoneand understanding their
(17:12):
motivations and what's drivingthem to do something.
I'll just give you an example.
Angela, you mentionedovergiving to family.
I think many women overgive.
So I would never tell a clientyou know, stop giving this
amount of money to your grownchild.
But I might say who are you ifyou are not subsidizing your
(17:34):
child's rent?
What does paying your child'srent give you?
What does it do for you?
So through the questions, theysee, oh, they have this identity
as being the supporter.
It's actually hurting the childbecause the child is not going
(17:55):
through phases of developmentthat they should go through.
But they just never saw thatbecause they never had the
questions that I was asking them.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, those wretched questions.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, I really put me through the wringer.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
She put me through it and I'm so glad that you did.
I'm so glad I'm a differentperson.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I have to tell you, I'm a different person.
You've always been brave inthat way, you, you, you know I'm
a little less brave.
Well, in many ways, in that Idon't, I kind of run away from
things and I don't face thingsuntil I have to very often, but
I love the way that you justlike dig in and that's really
(18:40):
proud of you in that way.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
She did an amazing job.
I just want to brag for her.
Every session she worked sohard.
She did all the actions.
She contacted whatever entityshe had to contact.
She did what she had to do andat one point she was like
there's no going back becauseshe saw it needed to do whatever
(19:02):
.
Phone numbers, things like that.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
A real coach.
Oh, let me tell you.
Let me tell you, and you betterhave that done before you come
back, like she didn't yell at meor anything like that, but you
just knew that if you just didwhat she said, Right and then
when you start seeing theresults, if you make phone,
calls and they go your way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Exactly.
I used to tell a friend of mine, like stop running away from
the IRS.
Listen, I have gotten on somany payment plans with them.
They are fine people to talk to.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
They're really nice, they work with you.
They're really nice, they workwith you.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And this person would run away.
I'm not calling them, don'tmuddy the waters and don't and
it was like stop it.
You got to stop running fromthese people.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
You can't hide you know, yeah, but.
I think, for some of us, I'mgoing to say, les, that, for
people who are worried more likeme, going to say, les, that for
people who are wired more likeme, who, it's just like Michelle
gave the analogy about the icecream right.
You can tell people that if youwant to lose weight, you have
to stop eating ice cream, but atsome point it's like they know
(20:33):
that they are a size.
They're a bigger size than theywant to be.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
That's not what's helping.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
And that's why you need a coach and I see that in
medicine too.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's like why am I telling people to you know you
need to quit smoking.
You know you need to eat less.
You know I, who has alwaysstruggled with weight, Don't
tell me exactly that.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the part that Michelle
just held my hand.
I knew that she really saw mebecause she allowed me to push
(21:22):
back Right.
There were times when we wouldhave what they call a very
robust dialogue, and a part ofit is that I felt that it was
important for me to tellMichelle what I didn't want also
(21:44):
right.
One of the things that I didn'twant is I didn't want to make
money, just to make money, right, I just don't.
That is not where I am in mylife right now.
Where I am in my life right nowand this is something that
Michelle's working with Michellehelped me to do is to see how
much money do I need to make tolive the way I want to live, and
(22:08):
I'm good and I'm good.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So the fight to make more, more, more, more.
You didn't have that, I didn'thave that, but I had to.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
she had to create space for me to be able to say
that, because a part of whatgets in the way is oh, you're
supposed to have ambition,you're supposed to want more,
you can make more, so why don'tyou?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And those types of things.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And that's not where I am anymore.
Right, I did all of that stuff,all of that hustle, all of that
.
I have lived that life and inthis phase I no longer wanted
that, and so what I hope youguys are hearing is you know,
this type of coaching becomesthis really intimate and also
(22:56):
it's kind of like an easingforward out of a rut that I was
in around these things that wasthat were really in the way of
the joy that I wanted to have,and I know, Michelle, that that
a part of your story is youhaving been in a position where
debt was, was a oh boy.
(23:18):
Was a.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Oh boy, it was terrible.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, share that with us if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah.
So in my 20s I got my firstcredit card when I was about
20-ish, before I went abroad toParis during college.
And there's just somethingabout credit cards.
I always ran them up to thelimit and then I paid them down
a little bit, got to the top,paid it all off.
(23:47):
They would extend my credit andit was just.
It was a terrible cycle, youknow.
There were points where I onlyhad $5 to the limit and I
couldn't get a latte because alatte costs $6.
And I was a severe, severeunder earner.
I had no belief in my earningcapacity All my life.
(24:08):
My father had provided for meand he's like the head of the
household, so I had absorbed thenotion.
You know, I get money from him,I can't provide for myself.
So it was really bad for manyyears and I got to the point
where I was reading a book.
They suggested going to acertain debt recovery program.
(24:30):
I worked that program for 10years.
Every Saturday I went to ameeting and it turned my life
around.
And so now you know I track mynumbers.
I have different categories.
I was able to to pay for incash a three-day stay at a
(24:50):
resort for my five-yearanniversary with my partner.
But life, life is so small whenyou're, when you're burdened
with debt and you feel choked.
You feel there's no way out.
And that's actually why Iprefer working now with people
with lesser debt or who don'tfeel as choked, because it's
(25:13):
very hard to make thattransition from suffocation to
imagination Very difficult.
Wow, it can be done, obviously,but it's a lot of work and a
lot of people aren't ready to doit.
Wow, mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I I think it's fascinating that your personal
experience so moved you that youwant to help people to avoid or
to get out of that situation.
That you were, that you were inright, that you um, it's it, it
(25:53):
it has become your, in a sense,your life's work in your
business to help women out ofsituations.
You could have just gottenhappy and just run off with your
no dead self.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Absolutely, but it's.
It's because I know the senseof powerlessness and I felt
powerless since a young child,as a girl.
It's very easy to feelpowerless as a woman in this
patriarchal society and I hatethat feeling, and so my life's
work is for me to becomepowerful, to help women step
(26:36):
into their power.
So I couldn't just leave it,because I know how terrible it
is and I don't ever want anyoneto feel that way.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right, it's amazing, I tell you.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Let me just tell you a couple of things that are so
poignant about your story Isthat I just heard you say that
you still employ some of themethods that got you out of the
trouble, and you said I track it.
I heard you use the wordtracking and immediately I
(27:12):
thought about weight loss anddieting and something that has
been a lifelong issue andstruggle for me, and I've had
weight loss more recently overthe last couple of years, but I
used to lament that well, I'velost the weight, now I can relax
(27:32):
and what I've realized is thatweight control and healthy
living it's a lifelong thing.
It's not something that's oneand done.
And you, here you are withfinances.
You've conquered the beast Yetand still it's innate in you and
(27:54):
it's part of your regular lifepractice and I really appreciate
that, because what you realize,what I also heard you say, is
that you've maxed out your cards, but then you've paid them off
also, but that wasn't the end ofyour struggle.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Right, right, and also Leslie.
I would say it's a relationship.
I have a relationship with mymoney and it requires daily and
weekly care.
I have a relationship with mypartner.
I'm working on my relationshipwith my food.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I was just going to say me and food.
Right now we're not speakingthat well right now.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I had a great experience.
Actually, one of my firstclients was a chef and weight
loss coach, and so she coachedme on eating and I coached her
on money.
Her name was Melanie and I'lltell you why it worked.
Because she never told me Icouldn't eat my ice cream.
She knew if she told me I wouldbe out and she worked with me.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
And Ange, that's just what you said.
I love the fact that you andMichelle have been able to have
a two-way dialogue.
It's not just her telling youwhat to do, that's right.
You're telling her what worksfor you that's right, and what
best way to get through to you.
And you've been transformed.
I mean, I hear you say I needto look at my money, I'm going
(29:19):
to have a date with my money,and these kind of language like
what are you who?
What did you do with my friend?
Yeah, it's really something.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
It's, it's, it's, it's something, and you know it
put me in such a position offeeling like I have control over
things that I just feltpowerless over.
And that's probably the mostsignificant takeaway is that
(29:57):
sometimes it's a phone call thatyou have to make, and when you
make it is the best time to makethat call, right, even if you
haven't done it in four years.
Today is better than six yearsfrom now.
Right, you make that phone calland you speak to that person.
(30:22):
Right, you make that phone calland you speak to that person.
I never thought that some ofthe contacts that Michelle gave
me, I never thought someonewould actually answer the phone.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's like it's a real person and they really want to
help you, but that's what I wasgoing to say.
I've had experiences where I'mshocked that they're so nice,
like they're not personally outto get me Right, like they're
not mad at me.
You know, people think aboutthings like that.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
You know if you call a creditor.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
You think that they're angry with you.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, they're not angry with you, right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Right, right.
And Angela, I just want to addto that I think what each action
does is it builds on itself,and then, with each action, you
are building your self-esteem,because self-esteem is built on
action.
So every time you make thephone call, every time you track
(31:17):
your numbers, it's a vote foryour identity as a financially a
person who handles theirfinances well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, and I have to use the word shame because it
was such a dominant part of myown kind of sensitivity around
this Right, and it got in theway of me talking about it.
You know, I could talk toLeslie about it.
(31:49):
Leslie is my bestie.
There was still parts of thisthat Leslie doesn't know.
You know, because you know, you, you carry this, this shame,
and when Michelle talks aboutreleasing mental capacity,
that's some of what getsreleased.
Wow, right, if you're kind ofwalking around, you know, you
(32:12):
know that you have this thingthat is in the way.
And so when you talk, when youact like, oh, everything is
great when you're dressed nicelyand you, you know you can, and
you know that there's a stuffthat you're like oh, everything
is great when you're dressednicely and you know that there's
this stuff that you're notdealing with.
It creates a level of shame Atleast it did for me to be
completely honest and you wantedto live a more honest life.
(32:35):
I did.
I'm coming on here talkingabout joy and I got to tell you
when I talk about joy and I andI gotta tell you when I talk
about joy compelling you to dothings, joy compelled me to get
the help I needed so I could dothis.
It was, it was a compelling.
You are a lie if you're nottaking care of this right and
(32:59):
that never sit well with me.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
That doesn't say you can't sleep well, you can't look
at yourself well in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Michelle.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
I have a question.
You are so capable andcomfortable with money
management and financialmanagement.
How, with that level ofconfidence, how do you address a
person that feels so much shamearound it?
You know there's definitely afeeling could be a feeling of a
(33:30):
power differential.
How do you convey that level ofcompassion when you speak to
clients that come to you with somuch shame and baggage?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Leslie, you're saying a client might feel that I'm
above them.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Well sure, and certainly way more capable than
they could ever be.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
That's interesting.
I've never thought about itthat way, but I would say
because I really try to listenmore than I talk.
In general, I try to listenmore and so I people feel heard.
I try very hard not tointerrupt and sometimes,
especially towards the beginning, they just need to go on for 30
(34:17):
minutes about all the thingsthat never happened to me?
no, yeah, all the thing, and Iknow the things that never
happened to me.
No, all the things.
And I know the things have tocome out and I think about the
shame, angela it's.
People don't have a space toair this stuff out, so it gets.
Who can you talk to?
You can't talk to anyone.
Yeah, if you don't have money,it's embarrassing.
(34:39):
If you have money, you feel bad.
You feel bad telling yourfriends who have less.
So everyone needs a space wherethey can be fully honest about
money and I I personally, andthen jelly, you can tell me if
this is incorrect or not but Ifeel like having the space to
fully say the things.
Have someone witness you andnot run and not think you're the
(35:02):
worst, cause you might betelling yourself you're the
things.
Have someone witness you andnot run and not think you're the
worst because you might betelling yourself you're the
worst.
But I just 20 minutes agotalked to another client who has
more debt.
So to me there's nothing to beshameful about.
It's just like you know.
And also I just want to say welive in America, which really
promotes going into debt.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
So it's not even a personal thing.
Yeah yeah, the system isdesigned to keep you in debt,
from advertising credit cards tostudents in college.
I just remember getting myfirst credit card when I was in
college and I know I was notworking at the time, you know.
So I did not have any abilityto pay it back, and you know,
(35:45):
obviously I had been strugglingfor a number of years after that
to speak and just giving youthis, this, this, this space to
be completely vulnerable,without judgment, right, this
(36:09):
nonjudgmental space.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
One thing that I want to say about that is that you,
that you, sometimes the thingthat gets you to really commit
to something is paying for it.
(36:33):
And this just hear me out rightsometimes, when we get things
for free or nominal cost $59.99or whatever it does not keep us
committed.
(36:53):
Oh, if it were that valuable,it would cost more.
Or, you know, I don't care if Idon't show up because it was
free or it was just this, if Ilose the $59, I don't care, I'm
not going to show up.
And even if you do care, butsomething else you gave
something else a priorityinstead of coming to a session,
(37:14):
right, and so a part of what wasreally helpful for me is that
Michelle ain't free, she's notfree, she's good, and a part of
paying for it, it makes youcommit to the transformation
(37:37):
that you are putting yourself onthe journey too right.
You pay for the service it is.
I have to tell you, as God ismy witness, I could have paid 10
(37:59):
times the fee to get the reliefthat I got in working with.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Michelle, I'm just going to be honest with you, oh
like let's wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
It is, it is I know you, yeah, you, you know me and
and you know that, um, you knowwhen I, when I want to do
something, I commit and it wasMichelle did not have an easy
(38:35):
time of it with me by sayingthat is that, um, it was hard
for me to peel back, it was hardfor me to peel back, um, but
(39:04):
she has a way of um allowing meto to to do it in the way that I
did it Right, and I feel likeher services are so personalized
, her way of of of seeing me.
I talk sometimes on thispodcast about people who are
wired differently.
Me and Michelle are wired verydifferently, as you know, know
me and Leslie wired verydifferently, and so I could have
said, oh, um, you know I'mfrustrated.
(39:27):
I'm not gonna do this anymorebecause I don't like the way
that she's asking me questions,but I really and you know this
about I was like, wait a minute,I'm paying her to ask me these
types of questions, like I amliterally in this to be
(39:47):
challenged in this way.
Yeah, If.
I did it myself.
I would be where I am.
That's a brave move.
And I was like I'm literallypaying her to be just who she is
for me.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
And she showed up and she did the damn thing and she
showed me how to do the damnthing and, um, yeah, so very
grateful, very grateful.
Uh, michelle, how do peoplework with you?
What's the best way for them toreach you?
Speaker 3 (40:20):
um, if you can share that and any other things about
your, your services, that youwant to tell our audience about,
sure, they can reach me onlinkedin uh, I believe my handle
will be in the show notes,michelle mallor and just just
message me on linkedin.
Connect with me right now.
That's the only platform that Iuse.
(40:42):
I'll say that, angela, we did.
I think the three-monthcoaching package I have
three-month coaching packages,six months, six months is to
really solidify whatevertransformation you're seeking.
I tend to notice that ifsomeone does three months and
they don't continue, they'restill wobbly, so they'll
(41:06):
backslide.
For clients who already tracktheir money and pretty much have
things in order, I do a moneydeep dive for two hours where I
take a look at your numbers.
I see what you can be doingbetter.
I hope you tell me your dreams.
Maybe we can get there fasterif we just move a few things
around.
And I also have a free moneybook club for women, which I
(41:31):
absolutely love.
You don't need to read the book.
It's every other month or so,and what's great about that is
one.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
You don't have to read the book.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, I give a recap and an overview and then I lead
a discussion in a way where youget excited about the book but
you don't need to read it, andit's really for women who want a
space to feel comfortabletalking about money and to feel
powerful with money.
So it's a space where people gobecause they they can't have
(42:01):
these conversations with theirfriends, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
We need more of that.
We need more people talkingabout money.
You know, money I mean inrelationships it causes problems
, especially when there's anincome disparity.
Especially when there's anincome disparity there's when
with friends, you know there'sif.
If you know, as a physician Imake more than many people, so
(42:30):
it's sometimes it's really hardand I have money issues too.
But it's hard for me to talkabout those issues to people who
have less because I used tothink, like many, it's like
money is the solution to theproblem.
It is not.
It is not.
Yet once you have money, thenyou realize it.
(42:52):
If you don't have it, then youthink money is the.
I always thought that havingmore money was the key.
So I think if we could havenon-judgmental conversations,
just bring these conversationsinto our everyday I'm not
getting paid what I'm worth andthen change is made.
But that all starts with aconversation and knowing how
(43:33):
much your partner, yourcolleague, is making.
Yeah, exactly, and we justdon't do that.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
And also I'll say yes .
And also we need spaces,containers, where there's an
understanding of, yes, it'sacceptable to talk, yes, you can
name your salary, yes, you canname your debt, and the
containers give the permissionand kind of hold the
conversation.
Permission and kind of hold theconversation, because it could
(44:05):
be you want to have an openconversation about money with a
friend who is just not there yet, you know, and then it's not
comfortable or good for eitherone of you, exactly, exactly and
you know you don't, you don'twant to put pressure on on
someone.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
You know if this is kind of your issue, you know,
get a coach get a shot.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
I love the fact that we frame this in a way that this
is can unlock your path to ajoyful life that you want to
live.
Yeah, and you'll see how thisties into the other episodes in
this series about some of thethings that are really keeping
you from getting on that pathMoney and just talking about it,
(44:55):
and the things that yourbarriers in terms of thinking
about money is only one way,that one thing that can prevent
you from living in a more joyfullife.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
So we thank you for being here, Michelle.
I'm so happy to finally havemet you, the guru who changed my
bestie's life.
It's been such a pleasure andis going to pull her closer to
leaving me and moving abroadbefore me.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
You will never be rid of me.
Never be rid of me.
Michelle, thank you for allthat you do.
Thank you for being strong andfor reaching back and helping
those who are still in thestruggle that you no longer have
.
That I no longer have.
I mean, when I talk about theshame that is no longer there I
(45:49):
can so openly talk about.
Look, I'm on a podcast talkingabout my money.
Yeah, that's crazy.
What the hell?
Who?
Speaker 1 (45:59):
knew yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
What the hell.
So I?
Speaker 1 (46:02):
love that you.
Thank you so much angela.
Thank you, leslie, it's beenwonderful to be here and what
I'll also say is my name also ismichelle and we both spell it
properly with two l's properly.
I'll just say thank you again.
And this has been anotherepisode of Black Boomer Besties
(46:24):
from Brooklyn, brooklyn.
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