October 21, 2025 • 50 mins
The moment someone says you’re “too much,” you face a fork in the road: get smaller or get clearer. We chose clarity. To mark three years of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn, the Besties rebroadcast a past episode where a relationship that ended: not because love was absent, but because the container couldn’t hold who Angie was becoming. What followed was a surprising kind of closure, the kind your body recognizes before your brain does.
If you’re navigating midlife love, boundaries, and reinvention, this conversation offers a grounded roadmap for choosing commitments that don’t ask you to choose yourself last.
Listen, share with a friend who needs this reframe, and if the show resonates, follow, rate, and leave a review so more listeners can find us.
Book a free coaching consultation with Angie here: https://calendly.com/rhythmwigs/more-joy-complimentary-consultation
Want behind the scenes content, Join us on Patreon at $5 or $10 level: https://patreon.com/user?u=83534204
Get Angie’s eBook:
We’re Too Old for This! The Inquisitive Older Woman’s Guide to Joy http://joystrategy.co/ebook
Visit our website www.blackboomerbesties.com
IG: https://www.instagram.com/blackboomerbestiesfrombrooklyn
Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:03):
So old.
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
I can't even believe it.
SPEAKER_04 (00:06):
I can't even.
We're three years old.
I know what I'm telling you.
But Black Boomer Besties fromBrooklyn Podcast.
We're celebrating our third yearanniversary.
We started in October of 2022.
(00:27):
Incredible.
I couldn't even believe at thattime what you got me into.
And here we are over a hundred.
Well over a hundred episodes.
Um revealing about love,friendships, thoughts, yes,
(00:47):
politics a little, a little bit,yes, but personal stuff.
And during looking back oversome of the things, I realize
how much we've grown over thesethree years.
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
In front, in front of everyone.
In front in front of everyone.
SPEAKER_04 (01:04):
So what we've decided to do for the next few
episodes is look back at some ofour oldies but goodies.
See if you still like them, ifthey still look enjoyable, if of
course have changed how I've umfixed my teeth with my invisible
(01:24):
line.
I just kept looking at my teethand I'm like, what the hell?
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
We were all the things, all the things we were
just coming at you raw andnatural.
Um, this particular episode umwas uh over a year ago, maybe a
year and a half ago.
And it was um, among otherthings, me kind of talking about
sharing when I was too much forsomeone, a relationship that I
(01:55):
was in.
And um, it was so interestinglooking at myself, listening to
how I was feeling at that time.
And um yeah, but you're you'regonna see.
Now remember, this was firstaired in uh almost two years
(02:16):
ago.
January.
Yeah, it was probably recordedum at the end of 2022, but it
didn't get published untilJanuary of um 2023, I think,
something like that.
But anyway, it's been a while,and um yeah, so uh whatever
(02:38):
whatever I have to say aboutthat, know that it's been a long
time.
SPEAKER_04 (02:44):
Um have a couple of things behind you, and the other
thing she does well, I'll sayyou do talk about a relationship
that has ended in some of yourinsights about it afterwards,
but you're in a relationship ina loving relationship right now.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
I'm in a beautiful relationship right now.
SPEAKER_04 (03:04):
So I have to ask you, since you've reviewed the
video, yeah, have your feelingsabout that changed?
You know, looking back at it andsaying, you know, would you have
done anything different?
Have you done have you have haveyou gained any more insight?
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
I this is what I recognize.
What I recognize is that man,you are really solid, meaning I
really did my work.
I I processed things in a waythat I am proud because it was
not easy.
It was a very difficult time.
And um I I I did the work.
(03:47):
There was nothing that I wouldum kind of look back and say,
ooh, I I was feeling the onlything, the only thing I have to
admit that I felt a little funnyabout is when you asked me if I
still loved him, and I said no.
(04:09):
And the way that things are now,because you know, I do consider
him a friend now.
We're we're not in touch veryoften at all, but I do consider
him a friend, but absolutely itwasn't the same way that we were
in a relationship before.
Um, I am in love, I am in arelationship, and um, but I do
(04:32):
see him as a friend.
Um we have um kind of moved overto that stage, but it was, man,
that was hard to revisit.
So I hope you guys enjoy it.
This was again, I don't know,the phase in our lives.
We were we were young, we werewe were we were young
(04:53):
podcasters, but we're still hereand we hope to be here for years
to come.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
Hey Les, what's cooking?
SPEAKER_04 (05:08):
Before I get into this, I want to say because our
viewers and listeners may notknow when they see us, you
sitting in a bed, me laying onthe couch.
So I gotta let you all know.
Welcome to another episode ofBlack Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn.
unknown (05:28):
Brooklyn!
SPEAKER_04 (05:29):
Casual edition.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
The casual edition.
SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
You know, this is the first time that I've
recorded our podcast sitting onthe couch, laying on the couch.
I'm like reclined with a coverover me.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I think the the first time I did it reclining in
bed is when we did a live, an IGlive, talking about um talking
about um when we had a live whenwe did the the clitoris 101.
But um casual.
(06:05):
What's that?
I've never before uh recorded umso casual.
Yeah, I know, but it was like weneeded to have this
conversation, and um I kind ofdon't want to, but um but I um I
(06:27):
don't I don't but I'm okay withbeing pushed to, so it's like,
well, if I'm gonna do it, I'mgonna be real, I'm gonna be real
relaxed.
I wish I had an um an adultbeverage.
Like I do.
Oh, you got one?
You got the best drinks, I haveto tell you, make the best, the
best.
(06:48):
What's the one you make with theting?
This is what I'm drinking.
SPEAKER_04 (06:51):
I'm drinking some ting with some gin in it.
Wow.
It was a hit at Monique'sholiday party, too.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
I remember having it, and you know I'm not a fan
of gin, but with the ting, thegin and ting, it's it's very
good.
SPEAKER_04 (07:07):
Another level.
Yes.
So remember we had thisconversation, and I remember
exactly where I was.
I was driving north in theGarden State Parkway, and you
got me, and you were telling meabout a new project that you
(07:28):
were starting.
I don't remember what theproject was, but it was it was
awesome, it was brilliant.
Yes, and as I'm so often in aweof you, I said, I said, who
(07:49):
wouldn't want to be partneredwith you?
Like who wouldn't want whowouldn't want to be around you
just all the time?
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
And so I answered.
I do remember, and I was likeAnd then there was a pregnant
pause.
Should I start the list?
And then I'm like, oh yeah,we're like listen, listen, we're
(08:18):
not for everybody, we are not.
I know I certainly am not.
I certainly am not, but thenyeah, we started talking, and
we're gonna um use the nameTopher because that is um we
both know who we're talkingabout while keeping the um um
(08:40):
keeping appropriate and thatlaunched into a conversation
about tofer that I thought thatwas pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_04 (08:51):
First of all, and I might need to change my glasses
because I feel like I look likeMr.
Magoo.
Look how let me tell you I thinkit's the way that the light
maybe he didn't need glasses.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Mr.
Magoo never looks so good, henever looks so good.
So you're okay.
You're the cool, you're thecoolest Mr.
Magoo I've ever done.
SPEAKER_04 (09:15):
Okay, so I'll leave the glasses on.
Okay, but the light is hittingit in a weird way.
Yeah.
Um you know you and I vibe.
I mean, you and I click.
It's like I get you.
I get you.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
You do.
SPEAKER_04 (09:32):
But sometimes, sometimes I almost get not
overwhelmed, but you're a lot.
I'm a lot.
You're a lot.
I am a lot, and as much as Ifeel you like this, sometimes I
(09:56):
I get a little anxious ornervous around you.
Yeah, and and thinking about it,what happens is some of your
energy, and you have energysometimes like this, right?
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
I do.
SPEAKER_04 (10:15):
And sometimes when that energy hits me and I
embrace it, then I become likethis in a time when maybe I'm
not ready for it.
So I get a little nervous foryou.
Like, is she gonna hold thisoff?
(10:36):
Is she doing too much?
And and when we talk about it,it comes out that um I'm with
you and I'm your number onecheerleader.
Right, but then on your own, youmay pivot from that idea, even
(11:00):
though I was all in, it madesense to me.
I signed off on it, I endorsedit.
It's like, okay, good, this iswhat you're gonna do, or this is
what we're gonna do, perhapswith the podcast or with some
other things that we collaborateon.
Right, but then when you come upwith another idea, then it's
like, oh, okay, wait a minute.
(11:22):
Yeah, wait a minute.
Yeah, and maybe some of thiswhat I'll call tension, which
can be good or bad or neither,but this tension, maybe it comes
from our left brain, right braindifferences.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
I think that's a part of it.
I would go I would go a littledeeper into it, you know,
because I have studied and usedum an apparatus called
instinctive drives, which looksat your natural motivations and
(12:04):
drives and ways of you knowbeing.
And the way that I would frameit in those terms is that I I
use improvise, I use theimprovise um drive very much.
(12:25):
Um so improvise is one of my keydrives, and it's actually
avoiding improvise is one ofyours.
SPEAKER_04 (12:34):
What do you explain that for the people in the back?
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
So, what that means is that I am always thinking
about what's possible, not canwe do it, but how can we do it?
Like, what is the way to get itdone versus not sure if we can
do it?
And you are more on the I'm notsure if we can do it.
(12:58):
Should we really do it?
I don't know, Ange.
And I'm with the yeah, we can.
What do you mean?
Of course we can.
And um there's no um, you know,one better than the other in in
any of this, but I think whatI've learned to do when I
(13:22):
interact with people who aremore um driven like you to avoid
improvise, because you thinkabout you think about the how
and it's important for someonewho's who's driven to improvise
like I am, um to actually getthings done, I want to work with
(13:46):
someone who is more on the how.
But if the person who is morewired on the how and looking at
risks and things like that, theytend to not try really big
audacious things.
SPEAKER_04 (14:03):
So And that's where it comes in because when you
present these big audaciousideas, yeah, and because we
communicate so well, youcommunicate with me and convince
me of how it's gonna happen.
Calm down, Les.
This is what we're gonna do, andthis is how we're gonna do it.
(14:23):
Right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
I'm all in.
Hey, I just wanted to take aquick minute to have you
recognize something that'shappening in this episode.
You'll hear me talking about uminstinctive drives, and I use it
to explain how I'm wired, howLeslie's wired, how we kind of
um can understand each othermore clearly.
(14:45):
Instinctive drives is somethingthat I started using in my
corporate career over 15 yearsago.
It is something that makes youreally clear about your gifts
and your talents and tounderstand your needs.
Not your wants, but your needs.
(15:06):
And you'll notice in thisepisode that I also use it in my
personal life.
It is something that is sopowerful that it is the reason
why I started coaching.
Because it is it has been thisincredible tool that I have used
to create a life filled with joyand fulfillment because I am
(15:30):
super clear about my gifts andmy needs.
I can do that for you.
I don't equivocate about that umthat statement.
I can do that in my coaching foryou.
I've done it over and over andover again, and I started by
doing it for myself.
(15:51):
I work with women who are olderwho are ready to get more
fulfillment in their lives.
And you can um set up a freeconsultation with me, just 30
minutes, and you can see whetherI would be a good coach for you.
So if you feel like you'reready, you're ready, it's time
(16:13):
you spent so much time feelingum undervalued, feeling like
you're doing for others and notfor yourself, feeling like you
have more time spent than timeleft to spend, and you're ready
to make the most of it and tohave more fulfillment.
I can be your coach.
I can help you to do that, toabsolutely do that.
(16:35):
So you will see a link below toschedule a consult with me.
Go ahead and do that and we'llsee.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_04 (16:43):
But then if you say, wait a minute, I got another
idea, or I got a different idea,or I decided I'm putting this on
the back burner, instead, I'mgonna do it this way, then we
start that cycle all over againfor me.
And I'm like, you know me, I'mchange averse.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
I'm like, uh sure.
Well, I think so.
So what happens is that um, andwe've talked about this in
earlier, probably in season one,that I ideate.
I I am an idea generator, and Iideate, and when and I'm really
flexible, which is another oneof my my drives, um, is the um
(17:24):
in um instinctive drive speakand ID speak.
I am um I am an I avoid thecomplete drive, and you um you
you use the complete drive.
So there again, we're opposite.
We're opposite on those lasttwo.
Um and so what that one means isyou like harmony, you like
(17:49):
things to be in a routine, verykind of um sequential, and I
like to have flexibility.
I like to see, okay, I madethese assumptions here, or these
were these were the givens at attime A, but at time B, those
things have changed.
And so I want to adapt to the tothe new situation.
(18:12):
I don't want to just do the oldthing because that's the way
that we have planned, but thingshave changed.
So you're like so um, so thething is that one of the ways
that I've learned to work withpeople who are wired differently
from me is to let them know I'mideating right now.
(18:35):
This is not the time to thinkabout how we're gonna get 50
million things done.
That's not my intention.
And me, I'm the doer.
You're the you're ready to talkabout it.
SPEAKER_04 (18:44):
Let's you're ready to get in gear.
Stop talking about it.
It's like, you know, it's likeeverybody who knows me is like
if I say as soon as we startsaying that's when the plan
starts.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Exactly.
This is what we're gonna do.
And you're like, and that's whyit's so that's why it's so
disruptive for you, is becauseyou're already because I've
already started it.
Yeah, you've already started it,and I'm still trying to decide
which one we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_04 (19:11):
You know what?
That is such a perfect succinctway of characterizing it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's so that's whathappens, and because you layer
on top of it this long-termfriendship and us knowing each
other so well, but not only usknowing each other, but we want
to make each other happy, andwe're very kind of considerate
of the other person.
And so you wanting to be mychampion, show me that you're on
(19:45):
board, and not just show meactually be on board, you may
start absorbing while I'm comingup with ideas versus waiting
until I decide on which one ortwo ideas versus 50 that I
really want to go after.
It's almost like I'm jumping onit too quickly.
You jump on it.
(20:06):
Well, I won't even say twobecause that's kind of
judgmental.
You jump on it faster than Iintend for the for the um actual
execution to begin, right?
So while I'm still thinkingabout which one, you've already
started taking action on as manyof them as possible.
(20:27):
And I also need flexibility.
That's true.
I know it's true.
What do you think?
I'm trapped liver.
This is true.
SPEAKER_04 (20:35):
That's my um I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Right.
Wow.
So but we stretch each other,right?
Because um I stretch you to bemore flexible because if you
hadn't really been stretched, wewould no longer be friends.
You would think that I'm crazyand would have been done with
(21:04):
me.
I would have quit you.
You would have quit me.
You would have quit me.
And like the woman is us.
SPEAKER_04 (21:21):
We would have only like we met in the 10th grade,
we would have just quit eachother in the 11th grade.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Uh and I have a great example of of something
that I want to share too.
And then the the other side isthat once once we get started, I
need flexibility because if Isee a better way of doing it, I
would I'm like, I am not boundby an old way that we thought
(21:48):
would work when there's a moreefficient way to do it.
But also in your case, it couldbe a different idea completely.
It could, but I think whathappens there a lot of times,
Les, is that you and other andpeople who are wired like you,
who have the similar drives thatyou have, is you do not see the
(22:12):
linkages that I see.
So it seems to you like I'mdoing these discrete things that
are disconnected.
And in fact, everything that Ido, I think is connected.
Everything.
SPEAKER_04 (22:24):
So in other words, you can look a little higher up
on the umbrella.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
Yeah.
Or trust me, which is usuallywhat you end up doing, is um is
is is trusting me because youknow, I do stretch you, but I
don't stare you wrong.
SPEAKER_04 (22:42):
But but for me, because I don't innately have as
big a picture as you have, itdoes require me to put together
what I see as disparate umpieces.
Yeah, you know, and then lateron you show me that, hey, you
(23:03):
see the connection, you see thethread.
This was there all along.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Right, right.
Because there's no way that I'mgonna start working on different
things that I don't see aconnection.
Now I may try something and itdoesn't work, and you know,
those types of things, but myplanning is always aligned.
It's it's always aligned in inmy way of thinking because I so
(23:33):
I I'm usually trying to get um Ihate this this term, but I I
haven't thought of a new one.
I'm always trying to kill twobirds with one stone, and so I'm
always um linking things that Ithink we we make one attempt and
we'll check three boxes versusyou do that, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:53):
You do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:55):
So here's here's here's the thing, like getting
back to Topher that was sobecause I said who who wouldn't
want to be with you romanticallyor connected or in your orbit.
Right.
And I said I've got one.
SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
Wait a minute.
Is there one?
Is there one?
Yes.
Well, here's what was reallyinteresting.
Man, this is so I'm thinking ofso many things right now.
So you you know that sorry, thisthing just started to go dark.
SPEAKER_04 (24:40):
Let me okay, that's yeah.
You look the same on my end.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (24:46):
So um in your caftan.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
I love a caftan.
Listen, we're gonna have BlackBoomer Bestie caftans before
this is that this is through.
Just know that.
That's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04 (25:00):
We're gonna have a caftan club.
You heard when you just asked meto put on my caftan, I resisted,
right?
I'm like, I'm not ready for thecaftan yet.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
Caftan, listen, I am not there yet.
It feels so good, it's so silky,and yeah, all the things.
So, okay, there's so manythings, so I'm gonna try to
really focus in so that youunderstand.
So, um, you know that um whenthings kind of came to a head,
(25:33):
what was the reason for thebreakup was that um I was I was
more than he could handle.
I'll say it a different way.
SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Okay.
So I'll just succinctly say thatAnge was in a long-distance
relationship with Topher, andthey connected on a very deep
level from my perspective andcertainly from her from yours.
(26:08):
And it turns out that Toferdecided or decided that he
didn't think that therelationship would have
longevity because it wouldrequire that I would have to
(26:30):
change too much for him.
SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
So let's say, just to make it simple, let's say
that And he did acknowledge thatyou would likely change or want
to change or whatever, right?
Yeah, right, that I couldn't fitinto his box, yeah.
Right, and you insisted that youcould, right?
(26:55):
But hold on.
So I couldn't fit into his box,and so I would really want to
and I would try, but in a fewyears I would realize that I
couldn't, and that's whendissonance was gonna start to
happen, and he wasn't willing totake that chance, right?
And I was devastated.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
(27:16):
Of course I can fit in your box,and I realized after you know,
it took a lot.
This this this was this was oneof the most difficult things
that I've had to process and getto the other side of that he was
(27:38):
right.
SPEAKER_04 (27:41):
That was right.
The problem with that discoveryor revelation was that it didn't
come immediately.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
No, not at all.
SPEAKER_04 (27:54):
We both thought that he was a little nuts with that
decision because you guys weregetting along so well.
But here's some of his history.
He had been in a longer marriagethat um that changed and they
ultimately divorced.
And perhaps we just thought youand I thought that he just was
(28:17):
afraid or not ready or it wastoo soon.
Right, right.
And that he wasn't assessing.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
It had been five, it had been five years, so it
wasn't like a soon thing, but umI initially felt that it was as
they say, some baggage from thepast that came up.
And I And like what are youtalking about?
It's like yeah, yeah, I thoughtthis was my person.
I really, really did.
(28:46):
And what made this um a I'm notjust saying it, I really feel it
thing for me is when I saw thepicture of um I saw some wedding
(29:07):
pictures.
I saw that he had gottenmarried, and I saw I saw his
beautiful wife, and my reactionwas so right because that's so
not me.
SPEAKER_04 (29:22):
You could kind of see from the pictures.
I could see just you know that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
Maybe I'm making some of this up because I don't
know the person, but from what Icould see, it was there.
You go.
I it was it just became like,and so when you when I told you
and you were like, What do youmean?
You're not mad, you're not, I'mlike, no, because I get it, I
saw it.
SPEAKER_04 (29:48):
Like you know how I characterized the the picture.
SPEAKER_01 (29:52):
You remember I said, please don't say it, Les, don't
say it.
But I so um you can say it ifyou want.
SPEAKER_04 (30:03):
No, I'm just saying in gym and then I'll say it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
No, but the thing is, you know, when you see
something and um the way it hitsyou is the real truth.
Clarity.
It's not like and the way it hitme, it was like, oh my God, he
was so right.
Because I may have been that fora little bit, and I might have
(30:30):
wanted to, and it might havebeen just something that um I in
a way kind of sacrificed a partof myself.
I may have been totally willingto do it because you know the
love was so the love was sostrong.
That's what we do, we change.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think that he, first ofall, he knew himself.
(30:54):
So regardless of whether he knewme or not, or whether I was
willing to do it or not, he knewwho he was.
And he knew that he, whether itwas fact or fiction, he knew
that he would have felt that Iwas shutting parts of myself
down.
(31:14):
You know what I mean?
But what you say he knew youmore than you knew you?
No, rem this is a subtlety, sostay here with me.
Yeah, go ahead.
This is a he knew himself.
And he knew how he would havefelt he he knew himself and he
(31:36):
knew how he would have felt umif he had any inkling or if I
said anything that that feltlike it was in that ballpark, he
would have started believingthat because he knew himself.
Does that does that hit?
(31:58):
And that I really okay.
So let's say someone says, um Idon't know if I can think of
anything.
Okay, let's say um he knew whathe could he knew what he could
tolerate and he knew what he hadsensitivities around.
(32:19):
Yeah.
And so he knew if he if he had afeeling that I was um
diminishing um who I was fullyto fit into his box.
If he sensed that, he knew thatit would have been something
(32:40):
that really troubled him.
Ah.
So that's regardless of whetherI was gonna be able to do it or
not.
Because I used to think that,well, he didn't know me.
He, you know, he really didn'tunderstand.
Oh my god, I'm like thinkingthat that is so deep.
Yeah, it it is really deep.
(33:02):
The the the thing that lingersthat I'm almost done with this,
also.
The thing that lingered thelongest is he should have told
me and we could have arrived atthe same place together.
Instead of him getting theresecretly, you know, without
communicating, and then it wasthis abrupt, it was this abrupt
(33:25):
thing for me.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04 (33:28):
But a couple of revelations around that.
I've I concluded that he was aless than virtuous person, you
know, by not being a little moreforthright earlier, you know.
However, in thinking about this,from what I remember of the few
(33:51):
details about the relationshipas it was still going on, was
that he was letting you knowthat he was concerned that your
personhood or your lifestyle maynot be compatible with him.
And you in fact tried to um lethim know that that there were
(34:14):
two, because there were twosides of you, that this is your
entrepreneurial self or your umonline presence or your public
view, whereas the private coreof you was some some someone
different.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (34:33):
So whereas he was telling you of the concerns that
he had, you were trying toexplain to him that that outward
appearance was not who you wereat your core.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Right, right.
Um true.
Here's the thing that um hedidn't believe me.
He he would always say that youdo XYZ with such ease.
There's no way that you don'tyou don't like you know taking
(35:12):
selfies or doing lives orwhatever.
There's no way, or when I wasdoing the Hair Stories project,
you know, did you did youmemorize that?
It's like, yeah, I I know itreally well, and so I can say it
without reading or or whatever,but it took effort to do that.
I make it look easy, but ittakes effort for me to do it.
(35:37):
So um I so he did not believeme, which you know really
bothers me when someone thinksI'm being disingenuous.
That's yeah, that doesn't flyfor too long with me because I
um I hold my honesty in you knowon such a pedestal, just the way
(36:03):
that I was raised.
SPEAKER_04 (36:05):
I I think that it's so nuanced that it in this case
it wasn't necessarily that hewas saying that you were being
dishonest.
Yeah, it was in saying that whatyou don't think that he was just
saying like maybe you just arenot aware.
SPEAKER_01 (36:20):
No, because it wasn't an awareness thing.
It's just like if somebody'stelling you who you are and he's
like, eh, I don't know.
No, no, no, then that that'sthat's not a what's that?
It's like don't tell me who Iam.
Exactly.
Don't tell me who the fuck I am.
Yeah, it was annoying.
(36:41):
It was annoying because umbecause and then and then to
know that he was making allthese decisions based on it.
And trust me, he didn't whateverwhat you just said about he was
kind of giving hints, notreally, because what you know
me.
If I smell something, I'm gonnaask.
(37:03):
I'm not gonna just I'm gonnaask, I'm gonna check in, and I'm
gonna assume that someone'sgonna tell me the truth.
Right.
It's like what's gonna if theysay, Oh, such and this, it's
work or whatever, I'm gonnabelieve you.
SPEAKER_04 (37:19):
I'm like that too.
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Just tell the truth.
SPEAKER_04 (37:23):
Tell me, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
So me extending grace became I was not being
realistic.
Well, I would be realistic ifyou would just tell me.
You don't you don't have to.
If I'm asking you a question,give me the right answer, give
me the true answer.
But at the end of the day, I umI think that he was right that I
(37:51):
would have, he would haveexpected, I think, I'm gonna say
it that way.
He would have expected me tokeep a part of myself turned
down because kind of that wouldhave been what I signed up for.
And and when I say a part ofmyself, for example, I don't
(38:12):
think he would have beencomfortable with me talking
about the clitoris 101 ortalking about um boudoir um
photography or wanting to learnhow to do pole dancing, those
things wouldn't fit into hisbox.
Now, it doesn't mean that Icould have would have any issue
(38:35):
in giving any of those upbecause I do think in
relationships you you know youyou make decisions.
SPEAKER_04 (38:44):
And I think that this was a a show of his love
for you is that he didn't hewouldn't want you to give those
things up.
SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
Yeah, that's very true.
Yeah, right.
But my thing is though, thatwould have been my choice.
Yeah.
And and I think that having beenum uh married and divorced
twice, there's certain thingsthat um I would be so willing to
(39:18):
turn off or turn down or toforego to have a genuine
friendship and um deep intimateconnection with someone.
There are things that I wouldhave been, I would not have felt
it a hardship to turn down.
(39:40):
So I do think it was a mix ofhow he knew himself and what he
felt um would be kind oftriggers for him.
And one of them is that he hewould have um it would have been
a forced thing versus a choicethat I would make.
SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:01):
Right?
Like like coloring my hair, forexample, right?
You know, I color my hair allthe time.
Yeah.
Um he actually thought that Iwould have an issue with not
coloring my hair blue.
I'm like, if the person that Ilove didn't want me to have blue
hair, that wouldn't be somethingthat I would feel, oh, I can do
(40:24):
whatever the hell I want.
It's just not how I'm wired.
Yeah.
But it would be hard for someonelike him to understand that that
would not at in any in any lightbe a hardship for me.
It would be like, you know,because Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
But but but I get I get that position though.
I wouldn't want you get whatposition?
I wouldn't want to be the guywho says to your loved one, I
know you love blue hair, butbecause I don't like it, you
can't have blue hair.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
Yeah, but listen, I know that that's a position.
So let so okay, you stayed atthat position.
Here's a different position.
A different position is I canblue hair means nothing to me.
It it has if in the in thepriorities of life right, right,
(41:19):
right.
Blue hair is in the top 100.
The blue hair is there, but it's105.
Do you know what I mean?
And for me, that's whatcompromise in a relationship is,
and it wouldn't be somethinglike that was in you know, the
the the top 100 things that Iwould want to do that I felt
(41:40):
like it was such a compromise.
But he made that choice for me.
Do you know what I mean?
He he felt just like you did.
I wouldn't want to, but for me,that would be for me to say and
but here's where I said that hereally knows himself because if
(42:01):
he thought that I was giving upsomething that I really cared
about, it would be triggeringfor him.
And maybe he would have a fearthat I would grow tired of him
or whatever.
SPEAKER_04 (42:13):
And who knows, right, when how and when these
issues presented themselves inhis prior relationships of
self-drown.
SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (42:21):
But you know, now we come back to where we started
thinking here.
I am thinking when you came whenyou gave me this, I remember
just driving in the car, andyou're like, and I'm like, wow,
this is I don't even rememberwhat the idea was, but I
remember my reaction to itsaying that that's a great idea,
Ange.
Okay, let's do it or you do itor whatever.
(42:41):
And I'm like, man, who wouldn'twant to be with someone who
thinks in this way, you know,because it was that innovation
or that out there idea that wasjust so appealing that I'm like,
wait a minute.
Right, right.
We are not for everybody, notfor everybody, and guess what?
SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
I'm okay with that.
I'm okay with that.
I'm not for everybody, but I amfor somebody.
That's good, that's good.
I am for somebody, and that Iknow, and it's just you know,
it'll it'll happen.
It'll happen.
SPEAKER_04 (43:26):
So um because you you would think, and and and
I'll I'll say it this way who Iguess you gotta live a little
bit to be able to um to to seethis and realize it.
Like, why wouldn't you wantsomeone who is um kind, godly,
(43:49):
nurturing, idly educated,entrepreneur, entrepreneurial
you know what I mean?
It's like we we we you mentionedticking off boxes.
You would think, like, oh, youknow, if you were to put this on
uh Tinder, people would swiperight.
SPEAKER_02 (44:12):
Whatever.
I don't want to talk about that.
SPEAKER_04 (44:14):
But I'm just you know what I mean?
But and then you when you dig alittle bit deeper, you realize
that we're gonna it's not justabout ticking the boxes and this
and that.
It's that you start reallyaddressing some core issues or
core fears, core concerns,anxieties, your history and who
(44:35):
you are, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (44:38):
Then it gets a little more complicated.
SPEAKER_00 (44:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:42):
Well, as you always say, you gotta dig a little bit
deeper that you can't staysuperficial.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_04 (44:48):
Yeah, um when you mentioned to me about the um
photograph of the wedding, itbecame a little bit clearer to
me as you described how um youknow he wasn't you know your
(45:09):
person.
Or you was you weren't hisperson.
SPEAKER_01 (45:12):
And and therefore we weren't meant for each other.
Um yeah, I was um I have to saythat it was such confirmation
for me, the way that my bodyreacted to seeing the the the
picture because it wasinvoluntary, right?
(45:35):
You see a picture and it'ssomeone that you used to love
and you know, and well, youknow, it was like oh there it
is.
There it is.
He he was he was right.
Um because um you still love youstill love, right?
SPEAKER_04 (45:57):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
No, really, definitely not um in the way
that I used to.
No, I don't no, no, no, I don'tI I wouldn't use the word love.
I don't love him anymore.
I just wish the best for him.
I don't wish him any harm.
Right, right.
Occasionally I I I pray for hisum his joy.
(46:25):
But no, I wouldn't I wouldn'tsay that.
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (46:31):
It's almost like it just um podcast talking about
the the love.
SPEAKER_01 (46:37):
You know, well, I think he caused more pain than
it really than was necessary.
SPEAKER_04 (46:42):
But look how many lessons came from it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
Still so you could learn less.
SPEAKER_04 (46:49):
I believe that the Lord works in a way that um we
get the lessons that aresupposed to have.
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
He does, but it doesn't mean that that you keep
loving someone who's hurt you.
SPEAKER_04 (47:00):
You could you could learn a lesson in Eros love.
SPEAKER_01 (47:03):
I mean No, any kind of love.
Agapo let's let's move intothat.
Well, the thing is, right?
I do agree.
I believe that God allows thingsin your life for the lesson to
be learned.
I don't think that God expectsyou to love the people who teach
(47:23):
you these lessons necessarily.
Because some of these lessonsyou could have one without the
other.
It doesn't have to yeah, yeah,yeah.
I that's true.
Yeah, so um lesson learned.
No, I no longer love him becauseI um I was too open a
(47:49):
communicator for him to notstill for him to kind of go off
on this tangent by himselfwithout letting me know that
this was percolating.
And the coward cowardice.
Yeah, it was cowardly.
Yeah, it was cowardly, Ithought.
Um, and also because um when Iwas surprised by you know, when
(48:19):
he actually told me, he said,Well, if you were paying
attention, you should you shouldknow.
And I thought that was reallyhurtful because I was I was
like, I was so paying attention.
I'm like, that's what grace is,because I believed you.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
When you said it was because ofthis, that, the other, I
believed you.
I didn't hang on and say, nah,he's bullshitting me, he's
(48:41):
blowing smoke.
You know what I mean?
And so for that, I had to kindof put that in the in in in in
its box and yeah, yeah, wish himthe best.
But I I wouldn't say that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Okay.
Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (48:58):
We got each other.
I get you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:00):
I feel sure.
You do.
And even, you know, even whenyou don't get me, you don't
mistreat me.
SPEAKER_05 (49:10):
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (49:13):
That's it.
You just have to be honest,yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_04 (49:18):
Wow, and whatever the end too.
SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
Yeah, whatever you're able to say when you
can't say it anymore, you cansay it months before.
You could get up the you couldget up the courage sooner rather
than later.
Don't go to punk.
Um, avoid a lot of pain.
What's that?
Don't be don't go to punk root.
Don't be a punk.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Don't be a punk.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (49:44):
You know what?
That's a great way to end this.
Don't be a punk.
SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
Brooklyn.
So old.
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
I can't even believe it.
SPEAKER_04 (00:06):
I can't even.
We're three years old.
I know what I'm telling you.
But Black Boomer Besties fromBrooklyn Podcast.
We're celebrating our third yearanniversary.
We started in October of 2022.
(00:27):
Incredible.
I couldn't even believe at thattime what you got me into.
And here we are over a hundred.
Well over a hundred episodes.
Um revealing about love,friendships, thoughts, yes,
(00:47):
politics a little, a little bit,yes, but personal stuff.
And during looking back oversome of the things, I realize
how much we've grown over thesethree years.
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
In front, in front of everyone.
In front in front of everyone.
SPEAKER_04 (01:04):
So what we've decided to do for the next few
episodes is look back at some ofour oldies but goodies.
See if you still like them, ifthey still look enjoyable, if of
course have changed how I've umfixed my teeth with my invisible
(01:24):
line.
I just kept looking at my teethand I'm like, what the hell?
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
We were all the things, all the things we were
just coming at you raw andnatural.
Um, this particular episode umwas uh over a year ago, maybe a
year and a half ago.
And it was um, among otherthings, me kind of talking about
sharing when I was too much forsomeone, a relationship that I
(01:55):
was in.
And um, it was so interestinglooking at myself, listening to
how I was feeling at that time.
And um yeah, but you're you'regonna see.
Now remember, this was firstaired in uh almost two years
(02:16):
ago.
January.
Yeah, it was probably recordedum at the end of 2022, but it
didn't get published untilJanuary of um 2023, I think,
something like that.
But anyway, it's been a while,and um yeah, so uh whatever
(02:38):
whatever I have to say aboutthat, know that it's been a long
time.
SPEAKER_04 (02:44):
Um have a couple of things behind you, and the other
thing she does well, I'll sayyou do talk about a relationship
that has ended in some of yourinsights about it afterwards,
but you're in a relationship ina loving relationship right now.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
I'm in a beautiful relationship right now.
SPEAKER_04 (03:04):
So I have to ask you, since you've reviewed the
video, yeah, have your feelingsabout that changed?
You know, looking back at it andsaying, you know, would you have
done anything different?
Have you done have you have haveyou gained any more insight?
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
I this is what I recognize.
What I recognize is that man,you are really solid, meaning I
really did my work.
I I processed things in a waythat I am proud because it was
not easy.
It was a very difficult time.
And um I I I did the work.
(03:47):
There was nothing that I wouldum kind of look back and say,
ooh, I I was feeling the onlything, the only thing I have to
admit that I felt a little funnyabout is when you asked me if I
still loved him, and I said no.
(04:09):
And the way that things are now,because you know, I do consider
him a friend now.
We're we're not in touch veryoften at all, but I do consider
him a friend, but absolutely itwasn't the same way that we were
in a relationship before.
Um, I am in love, I am in arelationship, and um, but I do
(04:32):
see him as a friend.
Um we have um kind of moved overto that stage, but it was, man,
that was hard to revisit.
So I hope you guys enjoy it.
This was again, I don't know,the phase in our lives.
We were we were young, we werewe were we were young
(04:53):
podcasters, but we're still hereand we hope to be here for years
to come.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
Hey Les, what's cooking?
SPEAKER_04 (05:08):
Before I get into this, I want to say because our
viewers and listeners may notknow when they see us, you
sitting in a bed, me laying onthe couch.
So I gotta let you all know.
Welcome to another episode ofBlack Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn.
unknown (05:28):
Brooklyn!
SPEAKER_04 (05:29):
Casual edition.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
The casual edition.
SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
You know, this is the first time that I've
recorded our podcast sitting onthe couch, laying on the couch.
I'm like reclined with a coverover me.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I think the the first time I did it reclining in
bed is when we did a live, an IGlive, talking about um talking
about um when we had a live whenwe did the the clitoris 101.
But um casual.
(06:05):
What's that?
I've never before uh recorded umso casual.
Yeah, I know, but it was like weneeded to have this
conversation, and um I kind ofdon't want to, but um but I um I
(06:27):
don't I don't but I'm okay withbeing pushed to, so it's like,
well, if I'm gonna do it, I'mgonna be real, I'm gonna be real
relaxed.
I wish I had an um an adultbeverage.
Like I do.
Oh, you got one?
You got the best drinks, I haveto tell you, make the best, the
best.
(06:48):
What's the one you make with theting?
This is what I'm drinking.
SPEAKER_04 (06:51):
I'm drinking some ting with some gin in it.
Wow.
It was a hit at Monique'sholiday party, too.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
I remember having it, and you know I'm not a fan
of gin, but with the ting, thegin and ting, it's it's very
good.
SPEAKER_04 (07:07):
Another level.
Yes.
So remember we had thisconversation, and I remember
exactly where I was.
I was driving north in theGarden State Parkway, and you
got me, and you were telling meabout a new project that you
(07:28):
were starting.
I don't remember what theproject was, but it was it was
awesome, it was brilliant.
Yes, and as I'm so often in aweof you, I said, I said, who
(07:49):
wouldn't want to be partneredwith you?
Like who wouldn't want whowouldn't want to be around you
just all the time?
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
And so I answered.
I do remember, and I was likeAnd then there was a pregnant
pause.
Should I start the list?
And then I'm like, oh yeah,we're like listen, listen, we're
(08:18):
not for everybody, we are not.
I know I certainly am not.
I certainly am not, but thenyeah, we started talking, and
we're gonna um use the nameTopher because that is um we
both know who we're talkingabout while keeping the um um
(08:40):
keeping appropriate and thatlaunched into a conversation
about tofer that I thought thatwas pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_04 (08:51):
First of all, and I might need to change my glasses
because I feel like I look likeMr.
Magoo.
Look how let me tell you I thinkit's the way that the light
maybe he didn't need glasses.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Mr.
Magoo never looks so good, henever looks so good.
So you're okay.
You're the cool, you're thecoolest Mr.
Magoo I've ever done.
SPEAKER_04 (09:15):
Okay, so I'll leave the glasses on.
Okay, but the light is hittingit in a weird way.
Yeah.
Um you know you and I vibe.
I mean, you and I click.
It's like I get you.
I get you.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
You do.
SPEAKER_04 (09:32):
But sometimes, sometimes I almost get not
overwhelmed, but you're a lot.
I'm a lot.
You're a lot.
I am a lot, and as much as Ifeel you like this, sometimes I
(09:56):
I get a little anxious ornervous around you.
Yeah, and and thinking about it,what happens is some of your
energy, and you have energysometimes like this, right?
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
I do.
SPEAKER_04 (10:15):
And sometimes when that energy hits me and I
embrace it, then I become likethis in a time when maybe I'm
not ready for it.
So I get a little nervous foryou.
Like, is she gonna hold thisoff?
(10:36):
Is she doing too much?
And and when we talk about it,it comes out that um I'm with
you and I'm your number onecheerleader.
Right, but then on your own, youmay pivot from that idea, even
(11:00):
though I was all in, it madesense to me.
I signed off on it, I endorsedit.
It's like, okay, good, this iswhat you're gonna do, or this is
what we're gonna do, perhapswith the podcast or with some
other things that we collaborateon.
Right, but then when you come upwith another idea, then it's
like, oh, okay, wait a minute.
(11:22):
Yeah, wait a minute.
Yeah, and maybe some of thiswhat I'll call tension, which
can be good or bad or neither,but this tension, maybe it comes
from our left brain, right braindifferences.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
I think that's a part of it.
I would go I would go a littledeeper into it, you know,
because I have studied and usedum an apparatus called
instinctive drives, which looksat your natural motivations and
(12:04):
drives and ways of you knowbeing.
And the way that I would frameit in those terms is that I I
use improvise, I use theimprovise um drive very much.
(12:25):
Um so improvise is one of my keydrives, and it's actually
avoiding improvise is one ofyours.
SPEAKER_04 (12:34):
What do you explain that for the people in the back?
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
So, what that means is that I am always thinking
about what's possible, not canwe do it, but how can we do it?
Like, what is the way to get itdone versus not sure if we can
do it?
And you are more on the I'm notsure if we can do it.
(12:58):
Should we really do it?
I don't know, Ange.
And I'm with the yeah, we can.
What do you mean?
Of course we can.
And um there's no um, you know,one better than the other in in
any of this, but I think whatI've learned to do when I
(13:22):
interact with people who aremore um driven like you to avoid
improvise, because you thinkabout you think about the how
and it's important for someonewho's who's driven to improvise
like I am, um to actually getthings done, I want to work with
(13:46):
someone who is more on the how.
But if the person who is morewired on the how and looking at
risks and things like that, theytend to not try really big
audacious things.
SPEAKER_04 (14:03):
So And that's where it comes in because when you
present these big audaciousideas, yeah, and because we
communicate so well, youcommunicate with me and convince
me of how it's gonna happen.
Calm down, Les.
This is what we're gonna do, andthis is how we're gonna do it.
(14:23):
Right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
I'm all in.
Hey, I just wanted to take aquick minute to have you
recognize something that'shappening in this episode.
You'll hear me talking about uminstinctive drives, and I use it
to explain how I'm wired, howLeslie's wired, how we kind of
um can understand each othermore clearly.
(14:45):
Instinctive drives is somethingthat I started using in my
corporate career over 15 yearsago.
It is something that makes youreally clear about your gifts
and your talents and tounderstand your needs.
Not your wants, but your needs.
(15:06):
And you'll notice in thisepisode that I also use it in my
personal life.
It is something that is sopowerful that it is the reason
why I started coaching.
Because it is it has been thisincredible tool that I have used
to create a life filled with joyand fulfillment because I am
(15:30):
super clear about my gifts andmy needs.
I can do that for you.
I don't equivocate about that umthat statement.
I can do that in my coaching foryou.
I've done it over and over andover again, and I started by
doing it for myself.
(15:51):
I work with women who are olderwho are ready to get more
fulfillment in their lives.
And you can um set up a freeconsultation with me, just 30
minutes, and you can see whetherI would be a good coach for you.
So if you feel like you'reready, you're ready, it's time
(16:13):
you spent so much time feelingum undervalued, feeling like
you're doing for others and notfor yourself, feeling like you
have more time spent than timeleft to spend, and you're ready
to make the most of it and tohave more fulfillment.
I can be your coach.
I can help you to do that, toabsolutely do that.
(16:35):
So you will see a link below toschedule a consult with me.
Go ahead and do that and we'llsee.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_04 (16:43):
But then if you say, wait a minute, I got another
idea, or I got a different idea,or I decided I'm putting this on
the back burner, instead, I'mgonna do it this way, then we
start that cycle all over againfor me.
And I'm like, you know me, I'mchange averse.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
I'm like, uh sure.
Well, I think so.
So what happens is that um, andwe've talked about this in
earlier, probably in season one,that I ideate.
I I am an idea generator, and Iideate, and when and I'm really
flexible, which is another oneof my my drives, um, is the um
(17:24):
in um instinctive drive speakand ID speak.
I am um I am an I avoid thecomplete drive, and you um you
you use the complete drive.
So there again, we're opposite.
We're opposite on those lasttwo.
Um and so what that one means isyou like harmony, you like
(17:49):
things to be in a routine, verykind of um sequential, and I
like to have flexibility.
I like to see, okay, I madethese assumptions here, or these
were these were the givens at attime A, but at time B, those
things have changed.
And so I want to adapt to the tothe new situation.
(18:12):
I don't want to just do the oldthing because that's the way
that we have planned, but thingshave changed.
So you're like so um, so thething is that one of the ways
that I've learned to work withpeople who are wired differently
from me is to let them know I'mideating right now.
(18:35):
This is not the time to thinkabout how we're gonna get 50
million things done.
That's not my intention.
And me, I'm the doer.
You're the you're ready to talkabout it.
SPEAKER_04 (18:44):
Let's you're ready to get in gear.
Stop talking about it.
It's like, you know, it's likeeverybody who knows me is like
if I say as soon as we startsaying that's when the plan
starts.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Exactly.
This is what we're gonna do.
And you're like, and that's whyit's so that's why it's so
disruptive for you, is becauseyou're already because I've
already started it.
Yeah, you've already started it,and I'm still trying to decide
which one we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_04 (19:11):
You know what?
That is such a perfect succinctway of characterizing it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's so that's whathappens, and because you layer
on top of it this long-termfriendship and us knowing each
other so well, but not only usknowing each other, but we want
to make each other happy, andwe're very kind of considerate
of the other person.
And so you wanting to be mychampion, show me that you're on
(19:45):
board, and not just show meactually be on board, you may
start absorbing while I'm comingup with ideas versus waiting
until I decide on which one ortwo ideas versus 50 that I
really want to go after.
It's almost like I'm jumping onit too quickly.
You jump on it.
(20:06):
Well, I won't even say twobecause that's kind of
judgmental.
You jump on it faster than Iintend for the for the um actual
execution to begin, right?
So while I'm still thinkingabout which one, you've already
started taking action on as manyof them as possible.
(20:27):
And I also need flexibility.
That's true.
I know it's true.
What do you think?
I'm trapped liver.
This is true.
SPEAKER_04 (20:35):
That's my um I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Right.
Wow.
So but we stretch each other,right?
Because um I stretch you to bemore flexible because if you
hadn't really been stretched, wewould no longer be friends.
You would think that I'm crazyand would have been done with
(21:04):
me.
I would have quit you.
You would have quit me.
You would have quit me.
And like the woman is us.
SPEAKER_04 (21:21):
We would have only like we met in the 10th grade,
we would have just quit eachother in the 11th grade.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Uh and I have a great example of of something
that I want to share too.
And then the the other side isthat once once we get started, I
need flexibility because if Isee a better way of doing it, I
would I'm like, I am not boundby an old way that we thought
(21:48):
would work when there's a moreefficient way to do it.
But also in your case, it couldbe a different idea completely.
It could, but I think whathappens there a lot of times,
Les, is that you and other andpeople who are wired like you,
who have the similar drives thatyou have, is you do not see the
(22:12):
linkages that I see.
So it seems to you like I'mdoing these discrete things that
are disconnected.
And in fact, everything that Ido, I think is connected.
Everything.
SPEAKER_04 (22:24):
So in other words, you can look a little higher up
on the umbrella.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
Yeah.
Or trust me, which is usuallywhat you end up doing, is um is
is is trusting me because youknow, I do stretch you, but I
don't stare you wrong.
SPEAKER_04 (22:42):
But but for me, because I don't innately have as
big a picture as you have, itdoes require me to put together
what I see as disparate umpieces.
Yeah, you know, and then lateron you show me that, hey, you
(23:03):
see the connection, you see thethread.
This was there all along.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Right, right.
Because there's no way that I'mgonna start working on different
things that I don't see aconnection.
Now I may try something and itdoesn't work, and you know,
those types of things, but myplanning is always aligned.
It's it's always aligned in inmy way of thinking because I so
(23:33):
I I'm usually trying to get um Ihate this this term, but I I
haven't thought of a new one.
I'm always trying to kill twobirds with one stone, and so I'm
always um linking things that Ithink we we make one attempt and
we'll check three boxes versusyou do that, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:53):
You do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:55):
So here's here's here's the thing, like getting
back to Topher that was sobecause I said who who wouldn't
want to be with you romanticallyor connected or in your orbit.
Right.
And I said I've got one.
SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
Wait a minute.
Is there one?
Is there one?
Yes.
Well, here's what was reallyinteresting.
Man, this is so I'm thinking ofso many things right now.
So you you know that sorry, thisthing just started to go dark.
SPEAKER_04 (24:40):
Let me okay, that's yeah.
You look the same on my end.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (24:46):
So um in your caftan.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
I love a caftan.
Listen, we're gonna have BlackBoomer Bestie caftans before
this is that this is through.
Just know that.
That's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04 (25:00):
We're gonna have a caftan club.
You heard when you just asked meto put on my caftan, I resisted,
right?
I'm like, I'm not ready for thecaftan yet.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
Caftan, listen, I am not there yet.
It feels so good, it's so silky,and yeah, all the things.
So, okay, there's so manythings, so I'm gonna try to
really focus in so that youunderstand.
So, um, you know that um whenthings kind of came to a head,
(25:33):
what was the reason for thebreakup was that um I was I was
more than he could handle.
I'll say it a different way.
SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Okay.
So I'll just succinctly say thatAnge was in a long-distance
relationship with Topher, andthey connected on a very deep
level from my perspective andcertainly from her from yours.
(26:08):
And it turns out that Toferdecided or decided that he
didn't think that therelationship would have
longevity because it wouldrequire that I would have to
(26:30):
change too much for him.
SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
So let's say, just to make it simple, let's say
that And he did acknowledge thatyou would likely change or want
to change or whatever, right?
Yeah, right, that I couldn't fitinto his box, yeah.
Right, and you insisted that youcould, right?
(26:55):
But hold on.
So I couldn't fit into his box,and so I would really want to
and I would try, but in a fewyears I would realize that I
couldn't, and that's whendissonance was gonna start to
happen, and he wasn't willing totake that chance, right?
And I was devastated.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
(27:16):
Of course I can fit in your box,and I realized after you know,
it took a lot.
This this this was this was oneof the most difficult things
that I've had to process and getto the other side of that he was
(27:38):
right.
SPEAKER_04 (27:41):
That was right.
The problem with that discoveryor revelation was that it didn't
come immediately.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
No, not at all.
SPEAKER_04 (27:54):
We both thought that he was a little nuts with that
decision because you guys weregetting along so well.
But here's some of his history.
He had been in a longer marriagethat um that changed and they
ultimately divorced.
And perhaps we just thought youand I thought that he just was
(28:17):
afraid or not ready or it wastoo soon.
Right, right.
And that he wasn't assessing.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
It had been five, it had been five years, so it
wasn't like a soon thing, but umI initially felt that it was as
they say, some baggage from thepast that came up.
And I And like what are youtalking about?
It's like yeah, yeah, I thoughtthis was my person.
I really, really did.
(28:46):
And what made this um a I'm notjust saying it, I really feel it
thing for me is when I saw thepicture of um I saw some wedding
(29:07):
pictures.
I saw that he had gottenmarried, and I saw I saw his
beautiful wife, and my reactionwas so right because that's so
not me.
SPEAKER_04 (29:22):
You could kind of see from the pictures.
I could see just you know that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
Maybe I'm making some of this up because I don't
know the person, but from what Icould see, it was there.
You go.
I it was it just became like,and so when you when I told you
and you were like, What do youmean?
You're not mad, you're not, I'mlike, no, because I get it, I
saw it.
SPEAKER_04 (29:48):
Like you know how I characterized the the picture.
SPEAKER_01 (29:52):
You remember I said, please don't say it, Les, don't
say it.
But I so um you can say it ifyou want.
SPEAKER_04 (30:03):
No, I'm just saying in gym and then I'll say it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
No, but the thing is, you know, when you see
something and um the way it hitsyou is the real truth.
Clarity.
It's not like and the way it hitme, it was like, oh my God, he
was so right.
Because I may have been that fora little bit, and I might have
(30:30):
wanted to, and it might havebeen just something that um I in
a way kind of sacrificed a partof myself.
I may have been totally willingto do it because you know the
love was so the love was sostrong.
That's what we do, we change.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think that he, first ofall, he knew himself.
(30:54):
So regardless of whether he knewme or not, or whether I was
willing to do it or not, he knewwho he was.
And he knew that he, whether itwas fact or fiction, he knew
that he would have felt that Iwas shutting parts of myself
down.
(31:14):
You know what I mean?
But what you say he knew youmore than you knew you?
No, rem this is a subtlety, sostay here with me.
Yeah, go ahead.
This is a he knew himself.
And he knew how he would havefelt he he knew himself and he
(31:36):
knew how he would have felt umif he had any inkling or if I
said anything that that feltlike it was in that ballpark, he
would have started believingthat because he knew himself.
Does that does that hit?
(31:58):
And that I really okay.
So let's say someone says, um Idon't know if I can think of
anything.
Okay, let's say um he knew whathe could he knew what he could
tolerate and he knew what he hadsensitivities around.
(32:19):
Yeah.
And so he knew if he if he had afeeling that I was um
diminishing um who I was fullyto fit into his box.
If he sensed that, he knew thatit would have been something
(32:40):
that really troubled him.
Ah.
So that's regardless of whetherI was gonna be able to do it or
not.
Because I used to think that,well, he didn't know me.
He, you know, he really didn'tunderstand.
Oh my god, I'm like thinkingthat that is so deep.
Yeah, it it is really deep.
(33:02):
The the the thing that lingersthat I'm almost done with this,
also.
The thing that lingered thelongest is he should have told
me and we could have arrived atthe same place together.
Instead of him getting theresecretly, you know, without
communicating, and then it wasthis abrupt, it was this abrupt
(33:25):
thing for me.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04 (33:28):
But a couple of revelations around that.
I've I concluded that he was aless than virtuous person, you
know, by not being a little moreforthright earlier, you know.
However, in thinking about this,from what I remember of the few
(33:51):
details about the relationshipas it was still going on, was
that he was letting you knowthat he was concerned that your
personhood or your lifestyle maynot be compatible with him.
And you in fact tried to um lethim know that that there were
(34:14):
two, because there were twosides of you, that this is your
entrepreneurial self or your umonline presence or your public
view, whereas the private coreof you was some some someone
different.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (34:33):
So whereas he was telling you of the concerns that
he had, you were trying toexplain to him that that outward
appearance was not who you wereat your core.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Right, right.
Um true.
Here's the thing that um hedidn't believe me.
He he would always say that youdo XYZ with such ease.
There's no way that you don'tyou don't like you know taking
(35:12):
selfies or doing lives orwhatever.
There's no way, or when I wasdoing the Hair Stories project,
you know, did you did youmemorize that?
It's like, yeah, I I know itreally well, and so I can say it
without reading or or whatever,but it took effort to do that.
I make it look easy, but ittakes effort for me to do it.
(35:37):
So um I so he did not believeme, which you know really
bothers me when someone thinksI'm being disingenuous.
That's yeah, that doesn't flyfor too long with me because I
um I hold my honesty in you knowon such a pedestal, just the way
(36:03):
that I was raised.
SPEAKER_04 (36:05):
I I think that it's so nuanced that it in this case
it wasn't necessarily that hewas saying that you were being
dishonest.
Yeah, it was in saying that whatyou don't think that he was just
saying like maybe you just arenot aware.
SPEAKER_01 (36:20):
No, because it wasn't an awareness thing.
It's just like if somebody'stelling you who you are and he's
like, eh, I don't know.
No, no, no, then that that'sthat's not a what's that?
It's like don't tell me who Iam.
Exactly.
Don't tell me who the fuck I am.
Yeah, it was annoying.
(36:41):
It was annoying because umbecause and then and then to
know that he was making allthese decisions based on it.
And trust me, he didn't whateverwhat you just said about he was
kind of giving hints, notreally, because what you know
me.
If I smell something, I'm gonnaask.
(37:03):
I'm not gonna just I'm gonnaask, I'm gonna check in, and I'm
gonna assume that someone'sgonna tell me the truth.
Right.
It's like what's gonna if theysay, Oh, such and this, it's
work or whatever, I'm gonnabelieve you.
SPEAKER_04 (37:19):
I'm like that too.
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Just tell the truth.
SPEAKER_04 (37:23):
Tell me, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
So me extending grace became I was not being
realistic.
Well, I would be realistic ifyou would just tell me.
You don't you don't have to.
If I'm asking you a question,give me the right answer, give
me the true answer.
But at the end of the day, I umI think that he was right that I
(37:51):
would have, he would haveexpected, I think, I'm gonna say
it that way.
He would have expected me tokeep a part of myself turned
down because kind of that wouldhave been what I signed up for.
And and when I say a part ofmyself, for example, I don't
(38:12):
think he would have beencomfortable with me talking
about the clitoris 101 ortalking about um boudoir um
photography or wanting to learnhow to do pole dancing, those
things wouldn't fit into hisbox.
Now, it doesn't mean that Icould have would have any issue
(38:35):
in giving any of those upbecause I do think in
relationships you you know youyou make decisions.
SPEAKER_04 (38:44):
And I think that this was a a show of his love
for you is that he didn't hewouldn't want you to give those
things up.
SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
Yeah, that's very true.
Yeah, right.
But my thing is though, thatwould have been my choice.
Yeah.
And and I think that having beenum uh married and divorced
twice, there's certain thingsthat um I would be so willing to
(39:18):
turn off or turn down or toforego to have a genuine
friendship and um deep intimateconnection with someone.
There are things that I wouldhave been, I would not have felt
it a hardship to turn down.
(39:40):
So I do think it was a mix ofhow he knew himself and what he
felt um would be kind oftriggers for him.
And one of them is that he hewould have um it would have been
a forced thing versus a choicethat I would make.
SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:01):
Right?
Like like coloring my hair, forexample, right?
You know, I color my hair allthe time.
Yeah.
Um he actually thought that Iwould have an issue with not
coloring my hair blue.
I'm like, if the person that Ilove didn't want me to have blue
hair, that wouldn't be somethingthat I would feel, oh, I can do
(40:24):
whatever the hell I want.
It's just not how I'm wired.
Yeah.
But it would be hard for someonelike him to understand that that
would not at in any in any lightbe a hardship for me.
It would be like, you know,because Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
But but but I get I get that position though.
I wouldn't want you get whatposition?
I wouldn't want to be the guywho says to your loved one, I
know you love blue hair, butbecause I don't like it, you
can't have blue hair.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
Yeah, but listen, I know that that's a position.
So let so okay, you stayed atthat position.
Here's a different position.
A different position is I canblue hair means nothing to me.
It it has if in the in thepriorities of life right, right,
(41:19):
right.
Blue hair is in the top 100.
The blue hair is there, but it's105.
Do you know what I mean?
And for me, that's whatcompromise in a relationship is,
and it wouldn't be somethinglike that was in you know, the
the the top 100 things that Iwould want to do that I felt
(41:40):
like it was such a compromise.
But he made that choice for me.
Do you know what I mean?
He he felt just like you did.
I wouldn't want to, but for me,that would be for me to say and
but here's where I said that hereally knows himself because if
(42:01):
he thought that I was giving upsomething that I really cared
about, it would be triggeringfor him.
And maybe he would have a fearthat I would grow tired of him
or whatever.
SPEAKER_04 (42:13):
And who knows, right, when how and when these
issues presented themselves inhis prior relationships of
self-drown.
SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (42:21):
But you know, now we come back to where we started
thinking here.
I am thinking when you came whenyou gave me this, I remember
just driving in the car, andyou're like, and I'm like, wow,
this is I don't even rememberwhat the idea was, but I
remember my reaction to itsaying that that's a great idea,
Ange.
Okay, let's do it or you do itor whatever.
(42:41):
And I'm like, man, who wouldn'twant to be with someone who
thinks in this way, you know,because it was that innovation
or that out there idea that wasjust so appealing that I'm like,
wait a minute.
Right, right.
We are not for everybody, notfor everybody, and guess what?
SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
I'm okay with that.
I'm okay with that.
I'm not for everybody, but I amfor somebody.
That's good, that's good.
I am for somebody, and that Iknow, and it's just you know,
it'll it'll happen.
It'll happen.
SPEAKER_04 (43:26):
So um because you you would think, and and and
I'll I'll say it this way who Iguess you gotta live a little
bit to be able to um to to seethis and realize it.
Like, why wouldn't you wantsomeone who is um kind, godly,
(43:49):
nurturing, idly educated,entrepreneur, entrepreneurial
you know what I mean?
It's like we we we you mentionedticking off boxes.
You would think, like, oh, youknow, if you were to put this on
uh Tinder, people would swiperight.
SPEAKER_02 (44:12):
Whatever.
I don't want to talk about that.
SPEAKER_04 (44:14):
But I'm just you know what I mean?
But and then you when you dig alittle bit deeper, you realize
that we're gonna it's not justabout ticking the boxes and this
and that.
It's that you start reallyaddressing some core issues or
core fears, core concerns,anxieties, your history and who
(44:35):
you are, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (44:38):
Then it gets a little more complicated.
SPEAKER_00 (44:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:42):
Well, as you always say, you gotta dig a little bit
deeper that you can't staysuperficial.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_04 (44:48):
Yeah, um when you mentioned to me about the um
photograph of the wedding, itbecame a little bit clearer to
me as you described how um youknow he wasn't you know your
(45:09):
person.
Or you was you weren't hisperson.
SPEAKER_01 (45:12):
And and therefore we weren't meant for each other.
Um yeah, I was um I have to saythat it was such confirmation
for me, the way that my bodyreacted to seeing the the the
picture because it wasinvoluntary, right?
(45:35):
You see a picture and it'ssomeone that you used to love
and you know, and well, youknow, it was like oh there it
is.
There it is.
He he was he was right.
Um because um you still love youstill love, right?
SPEAKER_04 (45:57):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
No, really, definitely not um in the way
that I used to.
No, I don't no, no, no, I don'tI I wouldn't use the word love.
I don't love him anymore.
I just wish the best for him.
I don't wish him any harm.
Right, right.
Occasionally I I I pray for hisum his joy.
(46:25):
But no, I wouldn't I wouldn'tsay that.
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (46:31):
It's almost like it just um podcast talking about
the the love.
SPEAKER_01 (46:37):
You know, well, I think he caused more pain than
it really than was necessary.
SPEAKER_04 (46:42):
But look how many lessons came from it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
Still so you could learn less.
SPEAKER_04 (46:49):
I believe that the Lord works in a way that um we
get the lessons that aresupposed to have.
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
He does, but it doesn't mean that that you keep
loving someone who's hurt you.
SPEAKER_04 (47:00):
You could you could learn a lesson in Eros love.
SPEAKER_01 (47:03):
I mean No, any kind of love.
Agapo let's let's move intothat.
Well, the thing is, right?
I do agree.
I believe that God allows thingsin your life for the lesson to
be learned.
I don't think that God expectsyou to love the people who teach
(47:23):
you these lessons necessarily.
Because some of these lessonsyou could have one without the
other.
It doesn't have to yeah, yeah,yeah.
I that's true.
Yeah, so um lesson learned.
No, I no longer love him becauseI um I was too open a
(47:49):
communicator for him to notstill for him to kind of go off
on this tangent by himselfwithout letting me know that
this was percolating.
And the coward cowardice.
Yeah, it was cowardly.
Yeah, it was cowardly, Ithought.
Um, and also because um when Iwas surprised by you know, when
(48:19):
he actually told me, he said,Well, if you were paying
attention, you should you shouldknow.
And I thought that was reallyhurtful because I was I was
like, I was so paying attention.
I'm like, that's what grace is,because I believed you.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
When you said it was because ofthis, that, the other, I
believed you.
I didn't hang on and say, nah,he's bullshitting me, he's
(48:41):
blowing smoke.
You know what I mean?
And so for that, I had to kindof put that in the in in in in
its box and yeah, yeah, wish himthe best.
But I I wouldn't say that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Okay.
Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (48:58):
We got each other.
I get you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:00):
I feel sure.
You do.
And even, you know, even whenyou don't get me, you don't
mistreat me.
SPEAKER_05 (49:10):
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (49:13):
That's it.
You just have to be honest,yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_04 (49:18):
Wow, and whatever the end too.
SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
Yeah, whatever you're able to say when you
can't say it anymore, you cansay it months before.
You could get up the you couldget up the courage sooner rather
than later.
Don't go to punk.
Um, avoid a lot of pain.
What's that?
Don't be don't go to punk root.
Don't be a punk.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Don't be a punk.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (49:44):
You know what?
That's a great way to end this.
Don't be a punk.
SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
Brooklyn.
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