December 30, 2025 • 51 mins
Angella and Leslie wrestle with how to set boundaries with loved ones without guilt, why the concept of “no contact” is gaining language online, and what healing looks like on both sides of estrangement.
As usual, humor lightens the load and remains an invaluable tool to support resilience and repair as The Besties trade stories, therapy wins, and lessons from recent podcasts from Stephanie Perry and Oprah.
Oprah Explores the Rising Trend of Going No Contact with Your Family
Stephanie Perry Going NO CONTACT with narcissistic mothers | Black women & estrangement at the holidays
Reparenting Coach Dani Ellison
https://www.youtube.com/@daniwentnocontact
Book a free coaching consultation with Angie here:
https://calendly.com/rhythmwigs/more-joy-complimentary-consultation
Want behind the scenes content, Join us on Patreon at $5 or $10 level:
https://patreon.com/user?u=83534204
Get Angie’s eBook:
We’re Too Old for This! The Inquisitive Older Woman’s Guide to Joy http://joystrategy.co/ebook
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Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
You can't do that.
Are you gonna do that?
Yes.
No, because you're anonymousyou're an anonymous guest.
I'm gonna say hey, anonymousguest.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
I'm gonna say okay.
Okay.
Stupid.
One, two, three.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hey Ann.
Hey, anonymous guest.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Good.
Hi folks, welcome to anotherepisode of Black Boomer Besties
from Brooklyn.
I'm Angela.
And um this podcast is usuallystarts with my bestie Leslie of
(00:57):
almost 50 years.
I'll say that we are twofree-thinking black women who
have decided to bring more joyand boldness into our lives, and
we encourage you to join us onour journey as well as starting
or continuing your journey.
However, today I'm joined by ananonymous guest.
(01:18):
And what we're going to betalking about today is something
that has been pretty um, there'sbeen a lot of uh buzz about it
on social media platforms, um,including um our dear friend um
Stephanie Perry, who talks aboutum narcissistic parents and
(01:43):
going no contact.
Her um her uh, I think it was alive that she did, was called
Going No Contact withNarcissistic Mothers.
And there's another one that shetalked about, and that my
anonymous guest and I also umwatched was Oprah Explores the
(02:07):
Rising Trend of Going No Contactwith Your Family, and that is on
the Oprah network.
So um my anonymous guest, I'mhoping that my bestie Leslie
will show herself.
Maybe she can join us.
Um, but for now we have theanonymous guest because this
(02:32):
topic is is is personal.
It's personal, it's dicey, youknow.
As we talked about what we wouldtalk about.
I mean, when we watch thesethese um these uh um shows on on
YouTube, we were immediatelystruck.
As a matter of fact, to behonest, we were talking about it
(02:54):
before we saw these episodes onYouTube because of what's been
going on.
Um there's been a lot of familystuff, and um it comes to a
height typically around theholidays.
And so we were talking aboutthat, and then um I was talking
(03:18):
about it with my anonymous guesthere, and then we found that
there was this conversationgoing on um um on social media
and in particular YouTube, andso I'll jump in right now.
Go ahead and jump in, please.
(03:38):
Anonymous guest.
Can I call you A G?
Sure.
My best friend's calling G.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Okay, G.
What what my voice is muffled?
And the reason my image is notdisplayed.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
But the eyes the eyes are crooked.
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Let me tell you how I did the let me tell you how I
did the eyes.
Okay, how'd you do it?
I just took it.
I took it with my finger.
SPEAKER_06 (04:13):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
On the right eye.
SPEAKER_06 (04:15):
Let me tell you what to do.
SPEAKER_05 (04:19):
I jumped myself in the eye.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
I mean, I jumped myself in the eye.
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
Oh my gosh.
Leslie, you don't even, you'resuch an honorary Jamaican.
You don't even know you don'tknow G.
G, my bad.
You found me.
You don't even realize that jokeis not that joke is not
(04:50):
something that only Jamaicansuse that term, joke, in the way
that your your your anonymousguess was Jamaican.
Just she, oh, sorry.
Listen, my mother would say, um,you take bad thing, make joke.
This is a really serious topic,but so many times we we have to
(05:14):
bring humor into things as a wayof um bracing ourselves for the
kind of emotional onslaught ofof these types of topics.
And honestly, um, you know, someof some of the aspects of our
(05:35):
experiences that we wanted totalk about were coming from
Leslie, right?
And and her experience.
But as I listened to some ofthese um episodes, I realized
that there was definitely stuffvery, very, very different from
Leslie's experience.
But I experienced things on theother side, you know, as a
parent.
(05:56):
And so we're doing this withsome apprehension.
We're gonna try to find thatlevel of discussion where we can
be honest, but we can alsorespect relationships and also
um uh, you know, like be wherewe are in it and not trying, not
(06:20):
trying to be more evolved thanwe actually are in this moment,
right?
Um, so bear with us, we do havestuff that we want to share.
Do you want to start, Les?
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah.
So I've had some discussionswith Ange around how to
effectively yet gently form umboundaries um in communication
(06:56):
with family, loved ones,friends, partners, really the
whole thing.
Um and as we were talking aboutit and some of my more recent
experiences with that and theneed for it, actually, that's
when we came upon these videosum that Ange just referenced,
(07:21):
and we'll put them in the umnotes.
That there are actually, Iwouldn't call it a movement, but
people are really talking aboutthis concept of no contact.
Um and what's surprising isthere no contact with their
family members or no contactwith their parents, and the
(07:42):
discussions around why thathappened and all.
And I'll just say briefly, um,and I guess I'll expand on it a
little bit more.
I recently had um thisconversation with a close family
member that I needed to limit myum contact with them.
(08:12):
At the time I said, you know,there's just too much drama
going on with you, and I neededto pull back.
And what I learned over themonths of really not having too
much contact or speaking to themwas that they were really
offended and hurt, and reallycould not understand what I
(08:36):
meant by that, and minimizedone, um, what I called the
drama, but also couldn'tunderstand my position.
Now, let me just expand on, andyou guys kind of know things
about um what's going on with mein my position, in that I've had
a lot of um the last year or twofor me has have has been very
(09:02):
difficult, stressful,emotionally taxing.
I've um gone through aseparation and divorce.
Um more recently, my son hasbeen quite ill, and that's
taking up a lot of my time andemotional bandwidth.
(09:24):
And as a result, what I havefound is that those situations
and people that have that haveexacerbated my stress and angst
and anxiety, I've decided I needto step back and not speak to
them.
(09:44):
Because what I am is a naturalproblem solver, I take on
people's um issues, I'm am anempath.
But as a result, I didn't have Irealized now I do not have as
much to give, to pour out, tohelp.
(10:07):
I don't have that.
And as a result, because I thatwas the role that I play in
their lives for the most part, Icouldn't play any role in their
life.
So that's really kind of whereit it um where it came with the
discussion.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
And I think Les that um two the two things that kind
of came front and center for meas you spoke is that one is that
you know big ups to you forsaying that, for asserting your
(10:45):
your needs and acknowledgingkind of your um your boundaries,
right?
When when I talk aboutboundaries, I don't mean how do
you block people or what youexpect from other people.
Boundaries for me are what arethe boundaries that you set for
(11:05):
yourself, right?
If you say um the differencethen is don't call me for the
next six months, or I'll onlytalk to you once a month for the
next six months, so don't callme.
But don't call me, that that'son them.
That's not a boundary.
A boundary is I'm not gonna takeyour calls.
(11:29):
So they can call you 50 milliontimes, but have you kind of set
that up for yourself to say,well, I'm only taking one of
those every month, right?
Yeah, so it's it's it's it'ssomething around your behavior.
And so I want to kind ofacknowledge that you had the,
you know, you you unfortunatelycame from your just you know,
(11:52):
lack, like I can't do thisanymore.
But nonetheless, you didn'tghost, you said, I can't do this
right now.
I have all of these things goingon, I can't do this right now,
right?
The other part of it is that umthe expectation is that you have
(12:16):
the the other person should say,I get it.
You know, is there anything Ican do to help?
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
That was my expectation.
That wasn't what I received.
Right, right.
You know, yeah.
And and traditionally, thesethings become a little dicey
because you feel some um family,you there are family
obligations, not just that youfeel it.
(12:44):
I mean, you spend your wholelife um with family members, and
you do have some obligation.
What I think is new and I guessmore progressive is that I'll
speak for me, but it extends toother people as well.
(13:04):
I'm learning more to protectmyself and put myself first.
And I know that saying, youknow, you gotta put your
seatbelt on or your mask onfirst before you help someone
else.
But as a physician, as a healer,as a mom, I'm always willing to
(13:27):
make sacrifices and hurt inorder to spare my loved ones
from that hurt.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
So, Les, a question about that, right?
Um did did you find that it wasonly when you were in this lack,
like I just cannot, that youwere able to say that, or could
you not really have you, butcould you reach this point
without being in this depletedstate?
SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
No, I could not.
Because I think I'm a a a superperson.
Well, then I thank God.
I thank God.
I think I'm an exceptionalperson in that you know how we
are, we push ourselves more thanwe often ought.
(14:21):
And I would have pushed myselfmore if I were emotionally able
to accommodate someone else.
SPEAKER_03 (14:30):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
You know, I do have difficulty saying no.
Yeah, I much rather feel the umthe hurt or the sequele of
putting myself second because Ifeel I can bear that.
(14:53):
Or I am more able to bear that.
Yeah, you know, I've spent manyyears enabling a former partner,
you know, and I this issomething I learned in therapy
because I felt that in spite ofthe other person's let's say um
(15:22):
um emotional immaturity or badbehavior or whatever, I was the
better person so I can take it.
I'm stronger, so I can take it.
So I don't need as muchprotection as that other person,
perhaps.
SPEAKER_03 (15:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:41):
And right now I'm really coming into this time or
phase of not only seeking umself-protection, but I realize
that I deserve that and it's mybirthright.
You know, I know it's what Godwants for me to be also
(16:06):
protected.
Yeah.
And I think just to close thecircle, why I'm so happy in my
current love relationship.
Because I have someone who'svery, very attentive to my
emotional needs.
(16:28):
Yeah, you know, yeah.
So I think perhaps um knowingwhat that feels like, it was a
little more obvious to see whenI wasn't getting that and when I
was being more depleted.
SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Right.
Right, yeah.
So what what we're not gonna dotoday is to kind of go through
everything that that the thatOprah and um Stephanie Perry and
their guests um uh talked about.
We're gonna touch on on a fewthings, but it was these
conversations were really umjust a way for us to to reflect.
(17:08):
Yeah, for example, somethingthat I was saying to to Leslie
in um Danny, Leslie, did youwrite down her her name, her
full name?
I'm gonna I'm gonna pull it up.
I have it right here.
Um Stephanie's guest was um hername is um Danny Ellison,
(17:30):
D-A-N-I-E-L-L-I-S-O-N.
And her platform is calledReparenting Coach for Black,
she's a reparenting coach forblack women.
Um we'll we'll have links tothis in our episode notes, but
um she her comment about theOprah episode was that let me
(17:58):
just stop you for one second.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Yeah, sure.
How about if we uh if you or Iwill just mention her position
in general?
Your Danny's position.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Um well she had a yeah, she had a lot of
positions, but she she is a sheis someone who um uh uh has um
separated herself from I thinkher mother, who um is according
(18:32):
to Danny, a narcissist.
So guess what?
I'm gonna believe her.
Um her mother's a narcissist.
And um through that experience,she is now a coach, um, very
well credentialed, a lot ofexperience um coaching in this
realm.
And if I we hope that you youtake the time to listen to the
(18:53):
episode again, it's called GoingNo Contact with Narcissistic
Mothers on Stephanie Perry's uhpodcast, Stephanie Perry's
platform.
Um, but her position, Danny'sposition, I think what you mean,
Leslie, in terms of the Oprahepisode, is that it was um it
didn't spend enough time or itkind of gave license to parental
(19:21):
behavior, um, negative parentalbehavior, and may have been a um
uh triggering for some children,adult children who have um
experienced that.
And what I said to Leslie is I'mgonna listen to the Oprah
episode to get a fullunderstanding, but I don't have
(19:41):
a say in whether Danny was rightor wrong.
It hasn't been my experience.
I haven't had a parent who was anarcissist.
Um uh, you know, I I have aparent who was other things, but
not um, so I didn't grow up inthat.
And I'm gonna I'm not listeningto what Oprah and her guests had
(20:04):
to say in kind of, well, do Iagree or disagree with what
Danny had to say?
That's not my job.
That's not my I don't evenbecause I don't have any of my
own experience to say this isvalid or invalid.
Valid or invalid.
Yeah.
Basically, how dare I say that?
It's almost like people, and youguys know that I I often bring
(20:27):
in race into theseconversations, not because it's
the same thing or so on, but Ibelieve that race and the way
that we experience race, racismin America, it gives us a lot of
kind of common understanding ofthings.
And um and so it helps us tokind of understand other things
(20:50):
because of that.
So what do I mean by that inthis case?
What I mean is that it's likesomeone who's never experienced
racism looking at something thatdiscusses race and has an
opinion.
You don't get an opinion.
You your position here is tolisten and learn.
It's not to have an opinion onsomething that you've never
(21:13):
experienced.
So I I was sure I was verycareful to listen, to learn and
learn maybe why Danny had thispoint of view, versus um uh
deciding whether I agree ordisagree.
This was this was a listenthing, right?
SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
Yeah, so what I was struck by, first of all, the
whole concept, and it has thisname, you know, um going no
contact.
And obviously it's an extremebehavior or decision that
people, and it could be childrencould make that decision,
parents can make that decision,friends can make that decision,
(21:54):
and whatever.
Right, right.
Um so it takes an extremeexample, but what Danny was
saying in her case was that aperson who has this mental
illness, this condition ofnarcissism, will not change
their barrent behavior.
(22:15):
And as a result, if we as theirchildren continue to go back to
them with an expectation ofimprovement, or that it'll get
better, or it won't hurt as muchthis time, or now they'll center
me instead of centeringthemselves.
(22:37):
This is a um, she wants to alertfolks that this is a mental
condition that will not change.
Right.
So we then have to change eitherour expectations or we protect
ourselves.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
And what I also said to you, Ange, is that this type
of thing is a spectrum.
It goes from um no contact is onone side of it and full access,
and whatever comes with thatfull access is on the other.
But then there's differentlevels of either we can call it
(23:12):
estrangement or involvement orconnection or whatever, right?
You know, and while I never umconsidered in my situations, and
I've had quite a few situationsof no contact, um I don't need
that level of finality, but I amable and more able to discern
(23:36):
the good the timing for contact.
I'm not ready to talk, I don'thave that, um, you know, and
that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
So I heard you really mention two diff two
different spectrums, right?
Um, one of them is um the levelof contact, right?
It's it's um full contact or nocontact and everything in
between.
And the other spectrum waslevels of um of um let's call it
(24:07):
a thing, of mental illness,right?
It could be zero to uhnarcissism, right?
And so those are two differentthings.
You could have um full contactwith a narcissist, zero contact
with a narcissist, you couldhave full contact with someone
who is a wonderful person, butyou've got your issues, or they
(24:32):
you know what I mean.
Um so it's two different things,and the reason why I call those
things out separately is becauseum you may be somewhere on one
of those spectrums, right?
You could um have decided likeyou did in this moment that I'm
(24:56):
not going to I'm going to limitmy contact to this person and
maybe once a month, once everytwo months I'll check in type of
thing, right?
Um I think there's some should Isay it last?
Um I think that in the situationthat you have, there in there is
(25:19):
some narcissist behaviors at atplay.
Um we've known each other a longtime and you know we we we we
know the people and um but theother thing and and I'm I'm
pushing myself to talk aboutthis because I'm gonna say it
now before I um I I pull itback.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Hold that thought from one minute.
Okay.
Um in Danny Ellison's case, it'sum she speaks specifically about
a narcissistic parent.
Yes.
But it could be any mentalillness, not just narcissism, it
could be, you know, bipolardisorder or manic uh or depre or
(26:05):
severe depression orschizophrenia or whatever.
People may pull away from folksfor a multitude of reasons, or
non-diagnosed.
Um, you know, these people justget on your nerves every time
you speak to them.
You know what I mean?
And we all know people like thatthat, you know, don't answer the
(26:26):
phone right now.
I'm busy, you know, they sapyour energy when you hang up the
phone and you feel like, oh mygosh, and you know, it's like on
and on and on.
I have some co-workers likethat.
But um, but um, you know, yeah,yeah.
So yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
So you were gonna say so but what I want to talk
about is also the work that thethe that you have to do, right?
And all of this and kind of theother people and their
behaviors.
I want to kind of talk about thethe work that you you personally
(27:05):
might might have to do, right?
If somebody is annoying you andyou can't, I mean some of that
could be you, right?
It's not only the other person.
So um what happened with me isum there was a point in my life
where um someone that I wasclose to was going through a
(27:28):
very difficult um time, and theyum came out of contact with me.
And it's someone that I that Ilove deeply, yeah, and it was
one of the hardest things that Iever dealt with.
(27:50):
Um and remember, two things,five things can exist at the
same time.
It was an opportunity for me todo reflection that was one of
the greatest gifts that I everexperienced, and it continues,
(28:12):
it has a real long tail.
And some of what you hear metalking about joy and living joy
and setting joy boundaries andletting joy kind of dictate your
life and and and um hold youaccountable and things like that
came out of that experience.
It was a big part of what led meto therapy, um, how I um evolved
(28:39):
as a as a person, how I um juststarted loving myself and having
a lot of self-compassion andputting things like guilt and
shame and responsibility intotheir place, right?
Um, that you can be responsiblefor something and not have guilt
about it.
Imagine you can be responsiblefor something and not have guilt
(29:01):
about it.
You don't have to give up theresponsibility by giving up the
guilt.
You can be responsible, yeah.
I was responsible for that,okay?
And not have guilt.
It's a process, it's a process,but um that being on the other
(29:22):
side of it was for me anopportunity for growth, and by
the grace of God, I took thatopportunity.
I was compelled to take thatopportunity because this
relationship meant so much tome.
And one of the things thatreally helped me to stay in the
doing the work is that I wantedto be ready for when that person
(29:47):
um reengaged.
I didn't want to be the same.
I didn't want to be the same, Iwanted to be better at managing
myself, my ego, um, notcentering my pain.
Um, my pain is there, butknowing that other people
(30:08):
experience pain too.
And, you know, as the song goes,and it's probably biblical,
everybody thinks their burden isthe heaviest.
Everyone thinking that hisburden is the heaviest, as Bob
Marley would say it.
Every we we often think that ourburdens are the heaviest, and
they're yeah, they're they're uhokay, yes, and what does that
(30:30):
mean?
That yeah, right?
You can have a heavy burden andacknowledge someone else's heavy
burden.
It doesn't have to be a race tothe top, a race to the worst, a
race to the do you know what Imean?
Two people can experience heavyshit, and honoring yours does
not mean dishonoring orminimizing theirs.
And that's a lot of what Ilearned.
(30:52):
And so being on the other side,being the um the person who was
um um who was estranged fromsomeone else, not um, and and it
was not initiated by me, led toum something that I'm really
(31:13):
proud of, something um which isdoing a lot of emotional work
that was became required of mebecause I wanted to be this
better person.
And um, and I am, and and so soI can talk about it really
boldly because I know I did thework and the work continues, but
had it not been for this thingthat forced me into this really
(31:37):
uncomfortable, uh, you know, buthere here I am, and and so it's
not about avoiding, and there'swork that you might have to do.
Um, sometimes it's you know,again, it's a it's a it's an
and, right?
Not just an or, but you may haveto decide, yes, that
(32:01):
estrangement is necessary, anddo your own work, right, uh,
around the role that you played.
You may not have initiated, youmay not have made the situation
worse, but you may have been anenabler, for example.
SPEAKER_06 (32:18):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
And and kind of looking at that enabling thing,
because typically what happensis if you're that in that
relationship, you're that inother relationships, right?
What did I say?
You want to put the bag back on?
No.
I beg your pardon.
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
I was just saying, I'm just saying we need to call
in our anonymous guest again.
G?
G, would you like to come back?
No.
You know, what you were saying,I'll tell you, a number of years
ago, it reminded me of a reallypainful part when um um uh uh
(33:07):
Omari was estranged from me.
And I did not initiate it.
It was well over a year.
He um had no contact with me.
And I do remember so vividly howpainful that was for me.
(33:28):
It was a little bit helpfultrying to imagine that although
we had always been close, forhim to separate himself like
that, he must have beensuffering also.
SPEAKER_03 (33:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:45):
But I think the the thing that made it most
difficult for me is that Ididn't know why.
SPEAKER_05 (33:52):
Right.
Right.
And plus he was ill.
SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
And his and he was ill at the time, um, which
compli I'm sure complicatedeverything.
SPEAKER_05 (34:02):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (34:03):
When you don't know why, unlike in your case, you
had an idea of some of themental um processes and the
problems that your person wasgoing through, I had no idea.
Yeah.
So I really was trying to dosome emotional work on myself,
(34:25):
but in a vacuum, in the absenceof a lot of information.
I see.
So I couldn't confirm whether ornot I was in the right direction
or whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (34:34):
You know, I understand.
SPEAKER_00 (34:35):
I just knew, and I came to learn this a decade
later or so, is that if theperson is experienced something
like this, the it's a two-waystreet.
Yeah.
You know, it can't be all, oh,they're crazy and they're a
(34:56):
burden, and you just gotta pull.
It's a dynamic between the twoof you.
Yeah, for sure.
So I love that you recognizethat there were some alterations
you need to make, you needed tomake in terms of therapy and
changing or whatever.
SPEAKER_05 (35:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
I um I came to that a little bit, it took me a
little bit longer, I think, toum make these changes.
SPEAKER_02 (35:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:23):
You know, I I didn't have a choice.
Right.
And um in the last few weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Well, you say you didn't have a choice, but it's
like we always have choices.
You could say, you know, fuckit.
You know, let them come backwhen they're ready.
That's a narcissistic way tothink about it.
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
I get that, but here's what the point that I'm
making and saying it that way isbecause um sometimes life puts
you in a situation where youhave to step up to go deep.
(36:13):
You have to make really, reallyhard decisions, decisions that
on the outside it may look likeyou know, um, you're you're the
worst person, or how could youdo that, or whatever it is.
But you come to realize that youhave to thank God for it.
(36:36):
Because had it not been for thatoh yeah, that oh yeah, that like
groaning pain, like just all theblood comes out of your just,
you know, you can't even speak.
You you just groan when you'repraying.
(36:58):
When you come to realize thatthat is the moment, that moment
of desperation, I'm gonna sayit, of desperation, when you
have to move out of that.
Like, that's what I meant.
I the compelling for me was thatI need to be better because my
(37:24):
love for this person was sodeep.
I had to, I had to, I had to.
What was the alternative?
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Like, what I I I had to do it, and then too, you also
with your faith, yeah, you knowthat when you do the work, he
rewards you.
Yeah, yeah, when you do thework, his will is done.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Yeah, you know, not none of the surface stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (37:58):
Not at all.
And and and this type of thingtakes so much patience.
It does, yeah.
It takes so much patience.
And you know, just in thinkingabout these this topic, I know
quite a few people who areestranged from their children.
(38:19):
Um, I believe it's the childrenthat have um stepped away, gone
no contact with the parents.
I know at least three um womenwho have no contact with their
children.
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Yeah.
I'm gonna say that one of thethings that I noted, I I think
this was in the the the Oprahconversation, they talked about
um uh different generationalgenerational understandings of
trauma and and abuse and harm,right?
Like back in the day, forexample, um when maybe spankings
(39:01):
or or treating your child acertain way was pretty common,
right?
Or um imposing strict rules onyour child so that they show up
a certain way in society, right?
So that you you look good,you're you're you're making the
family look bad, or things likethat, and putting a lot of that
(39:22):
in in one generation, it mighthave been very common, expected.
In this generation, it may benamed um as as abuse and trauma.
It's so obvious.
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Whereas parents would say, wait a minute, I wish
I had the children.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (39:39):
Oh, you're lucky.
You only got sprang with my handand not with the with the um
with the um electrical cord, oryou know, just things like that,
where um things that were commonin the past are not common now.
So that I thought was a reallyinteresting way of kind of
looking at this too.
SPEAKER_00 (39:57):
But one thing that I've Always been well aware of,
and it's really important inthis context is that we can't
negate the experience of thenarrator.
Okay.
You know, it's so common, likeyou know, I said I'm sorry, or
(40:22):
but you you you're doing okaynow, aren't you?
Right.
Or these types of things.
It's like, well, I said I'msorry, and I really didn't mean
it.
SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
Well, you know, intent doesn't take away pain.
Somebody ran over your toe.
Your toe hurts.
They didn't mean to do it, butit's still broken.
It's still broke.
That shit's broke.
So, so you know what I mean?
So it's not the the perpetratordoesn't tell the victim when
(40:53):
they've had enough or when theycan come back.
Indeed.
It shouldn't hurt you so much.
No, but you had enough time.
You had enough time.
But I'm your sister.
Yes.
But I'm your husband.
Right.
I'm your mother.
I'm your father.
You know what I mean?
So you owe me a connection, eventhough it's painful for you.
(41:15):
Yeah.
You know, intentionally or not.
You know?
SPEAKER_03 (41:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
I'm not, there's no blame here.
Right.
I just need to know what I needto do to protect myself at a
time when I'm emotionallyvulnerable.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (41:30):
Right.
unknown (41:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
It can be.
And what I loved about that wasthat every parent, any parent or
friend or loved one shouldapplaud your decision at
self-protection.
Because you don't want them tobe selfish and say, it would be
(41:54):
nice, but I still want you to bewith me, even if you're
suffering.
Like who would want that?
Right.
Right.
Right.
You know, when I it reminds mewhen I separated from my former
spouse, I wish that he wouldfind another partner that is
(42:14):
suitable and makes him happy andlives out his days and cares for
him in the way that he didn'tget from me.
Or he didn't feel he could get.
You know what I mean?
It's like, if I'm not with you,that doesn't mean that I don't
wish you well.
Right.
(42:34):
You know, or I negate the thedifficulty that you say you had
or what have you.
No.
You know, we we still have tovalidate each other's feelings.
And if we love someone, if theysay, you know, I need some
peace, I need a break, I need tomove away, this is not working
for me.
(42:56):
It can it might be painful, butI think that we need to respect
that if we care.
SPEAKER_01 (43:02):
Yeah.
I I think so too.
SPEAKER_00 (43:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
I think it's saying something, you know, to the
other person.
It's saying that you're honoringuh their decision.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:16):
And I feel um bad.
It it it's hurtful that when Ihad the conversation with um my
person, I um they didn'tunderstand my position.
They couldn't understand whyeven the mess that my life has
(43:38):
been lately.
And it's been joyful too, butthe messy parts of it, they
still couldn't understand why Ineeded a break.
SPEAKER_02 (43:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
You know.
SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
So a challenge is coming.
So you mentioned before when inin contrast between my what
happened with me and whathappened with with you, you said
that um but I knew you know whatthe situation was and and you
(44:10):
didn't know.
My question is um for you orthose out there who are um
wanting to or are estranged froma loved one, whether they know,
did you just cut off, did youtell them, do they know what
(44:37):
they did so that they can go dothe work?
Or have you just cut them offand feel so that you don't you
you know, and it no judgment,because it could be that you
have no emotional bandwidth todo that, right?
Yeah, but that is a question.
(44:58):
Let me tell you how to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (44:59):
Have you told them?
Have you told them what I think?
Okay, go what I honestly thinkwhat happens most often is that
person is telling us often andwe're not listening.
Say more.
What I mean is I think inOmari's case, yeah, he likely
(45:25):
was saying many things if I wereable to hear him.
Yes.
But very often we don't hearpeople because we have a certain
dynamic.
SPEAKER_05 (45:38):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
You know, so the dynamic is I tell him what to
do, even though he's a grown-upliving on his own, yes, and his
role is to listen and obey.
SPEAKER_05 (45:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
And perhaps when he no longer wanted to do that,
that's when he knew that Iwouldn't understand.
In other words, we need to givethe other person space to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (46:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:01):
We need to make it not easy, but we need to be
approachable.
SPEAKER_03 (46:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
And let that, you know, it just reminds me of a
situation again in my um myprevious relationship where I
would complain about a certainthing.
You never tell me this, younever tell me this.
And then what I really thoughtabout is like, well, do I make
it safe for him to tell me that?
(46:31):
When he has told me this, whatis my reaction?
SPEAKER_02 (46:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
You know?
So am I really asking fordisclosure?
Am I making it safe for thislevel of disclosure?
And these are difficultconversations.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
And that reaction could be that you start crying.
That is not creating a safe.
That's something I learned.
That's something I learned.
What did I do I didn't mean todo?
That is not the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
What made you bring that up when I was talking
about?
No, you didn't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:09):
That was that was did I do that?
That was definitely me.
Some stuff that I had to grow myass out of.
Like that is not making it aboutyou.
Yeah.
No.
This hurts me so much.
Don't do this to me.
I didn't mean to do that to you.
What?
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
That's not safety.
So listen, remember when I toldyou about, I won't mention his
name, but that he is estrangedfrom his sister.
And what I kept saying to himis, why don't you be the bigger
person and you make up?
(47:51):
Why don't you be the biggerperson?
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
And he has had no contact with this person for a
number of years now.
But I kept saying, such a niceguy, and this, and you be the
bigger person.
I and you pointed out to me thatby telling him and advising him
(48:14):
to do that, you are negating hisfeelings and disrespecting his
emotions and his emotionaltrauma from the hurt and the
relationship.
He too was hurt.
SPEAKER_02 (48:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (48:29):
So why should his hurt be minimized and he should
make up to someone who hurt him?
And likely, and likely he knowswho this person is.
Yeah.
And he would make himself morevulnerable again.
SPEAKER_01 (48:43):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, Les.
I'm still learning.
I'm so glad you took off.
Um, I'm so glad that uh my um uhmy guest went away and and you
joined us.
SPEAKER_00 (49:05):
Because you outed me.
SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
Did me too.
I didn't she's like practicehere.
I didn't practice.
Listen, listen.
Leslie, if you haven't noticed,Leslie is one of the funniest
people that I know, that I know.
I it can be any conversationlike this one, and Leslie can
(49:30):
have me on the floor laughing.
Imagine we come on, we startrecording, I you know, I put on
camera and I see this bag.
SPEAKER_00 (49:43):
But initially the bag didn't have eye holes.
When I'm the eye holes, I saidto myself, I don't know where to
look.
Like, what difference did thatmake?
And then I poked the holes whereI thought my eyeballs and I'm
missing myself in the eye.
(50:05):
I had to push the cardboard, itwas a little thick.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
It was it was a little card stocking.
Oh my gosh.
Anyway, um humorous healththough, right?
Really, really interestingstuff.
Thanks for um for say yes toengaging in this conversation.
I know that you know your stuffis a little more present than
mine right now, but we all gothrough it, right?
(50:30):
We all go through it, and umyeah, so we will put links to
the two YouTube videos that wementioned.
SPEAKER_00 (50:40):
So interesting.
And tell us what you think aboutthis.
This is like is it selfish?
Is it self-protective?
SPEAKER_01 (50:49):
Is it you know yeah.
What are you doing if you're inon either side of this?
Um, what are you what are youdoing?
What are some of the things?
And um, whether any of our storyresonated for you, we'd love to
hear from you.
SPEAKER_00 (51:03):
And until then, this has been go ahead, let's episode
of Black Boomer Besties fromBrooklyn, Brooklyn.
You can't do that.
Are you gonna do that?
Yes.
No, because you're anonymousyou're an anonymous guest.
I'm gonna say hey, anonymousguest.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
I'm gonna say okay.
Okay.
Stupid.
One, two, three.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hey Ann.
Hey, anonymous guest.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Good.
Hi folks, welcome to anotherepisode of Black Boomer Besties
from Brooklyn.
I'm Angela.
And um this podcast is usuallystarts with my bestie Leslie of
(00:57):
almost 50 years.
I'll say that we are twofree-thinking black women who
have decided to bring more joyand boldness into our lives, and
we encourage you to join us onour journey as well as starting
or continuing your journey.
However, today I'm joined by ananonymous guest.
(01:18):
And what we're going to betalking about today is something
that has been pretty um, there'sbeen a lot of uh buzz about it
on social media platforms, um,including um our dear friend um
Stephanie Perry, who talks aboutum narcissistic parents and
(01:43):
going no contact.
Her um her uh, I think it was alive that she did, was called
Going No Contact withNarcissistic Mothers.
And there's another one that shetalked about, and that my
anonymous guest and I also umwatched was Oprah Explores the
(02:07):
Rising Trend of Going No Contactwith Your Family, and that is on
the Oprah network.
So um my anonymous guest, I'mhoping that my bestie Leslie
will show herself.
Maybe she can join us.
Um, but for now we have theanonymous guest because this
(02:32):
topic is is is personal.
It's personal, it's dicey, youknow.
As we talked about what we wouldtalk about.
I mean, when we watch thesethese um these uh um shows on on
YouTube, we were immediatelystruck.
As a matter of fact, to behonest, we were talking about it
(02:54):
before we saw these episodes onYouTube because of what's been
going on.
Um there's been a lot of familystuff, and um it comes to a
height typically around theholidays.
And so we were talking aboutthat, and then um I was talking
(03:18):
about it with my anonymous guesthere, and then we found that
there was this conversationgoing on um um on social media
and in particular YouTube, andso I'll jump in right now.
Go ahead and jump in, please.
(03:38):
Anonymous guest.
Can I call you A G?
Sure.
My best friend's calling G.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Okay, G.
What what my voice is muffled?
And the reason my image is notdisplayed.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
But the eyes the eyes are crooked.
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Let me tell you how I did the let me tell you how I
did the eyes.
Okay, how'd you do it?
I just took it.
I took it with my finger.
SPEAKER_06 (04:13):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
On the right eye.
SPEAKER_06 (04:15):
Let me tell you what to do.
SPEAKER_05 (04:19):
I jumped myself in the eye.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
I mean, I jumped myself in the eye.
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
Oh my gosh.
Leslie, you don't even, you'resuch an honorary Jamaican.
You don't even know you don'tknow G.
G, my bad.
You found me.
You don't even realize that jokeis not that joke is not
(04:50):
something that only Jamaicansuse that term, joke, in the way
that your your your anonymousguess was Jamaican.
Just she, oh, sorry.
Listen, my mother would say, um,you take bad thing, make joke.
This is a really serious topic,but so many times we we have to
(05:14):
bring humor into things as a wayof um bracing ourselves for the
kind of emotional onslaught ofof these types of topics.
And honestly, um, you know, someof some of the aspects of our
(05:35):
experiences that we wanted totalk about were coming from
Leslie, right?
And and her experience.
But as I listened to some ofthese um episodes, I realized
that there was definitely stuffvery, very, very different from
Leslie's experience.
But I experienced things on theother side, you know, as a
parent.
(05:56):
And so we're doing this withsome apprehension.
We're gonna try to find thatlevel of discussion where we can
be honest, but we can alsorespect relationships and also
um uh, you know, like be wherewe are in it and not trying, not
(06:20):
trying to be more evolved thanwe actually are in this moment,
right?
Um, so bear with us, we do havestuff that we want to share.
Do you want to start, Les?
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah.
So I've had some discussionswith Ange around how to
effectively yet gently form umboundaries um in communication
(06:56):
with family, loved ones,friends, partners, really the
whole thing.
Um and as we were talking aboutit and some of my more recent
experiences with that and theneed for it, actually, that's
when we came upon these videosum that Ange just referenced,
(07:21):
and we'll put them in the umnotes.
That there are actually, Iwouldn't call it a movement, but
people are really talking aboutthis concept of no contact.
Um and what's surprising isthere no contact with their
family members or no contactwith their parents, and the
(07:42):
discussions around why thathappened and all.
And I'll just say briefly, um,and I guess I'll expand on it a
little bit more.
I recently had um thisconversation with a close family
member that I needed to limit myum contact with them.
(08:12):
At the time I said, you know,there's just too much drama
going on with you, and I neededto pull back.
And what I learned over themonths of really not having too
much contact or speaking to themwas that they were really
offended and hurt, and reallycould not understand what I
(08:36):
meant by that, and minimizedone, um, what I called the
drama, but also couldn'tunderstand my position.
Now, let me just expand on, andyou guys kind of know things
about um what's going on with mein my position, in that I've had
a lot of um the last year or twofor me has have has been very
(09:02):
difficult, stressful,emotionally taxing.
I've um gone through aseparation and divorce.
Um more recently, my son hasbeen quite ill, and that's
taking up a lot of my time andemotional bandwidth.
(09:24):
And as a result, what I havefound is that those situations
and people that have that haveexacerbated my stress and angst
and anxiety, I've decided I needto step back and not speak to
them.
(09:44):
Because what I am is a naturalproblem solver, I take on
people's um issues, I'm am anempath.
But as a result, I didn't have Irealized now I do not have as
much to give, to pour out, tohelp.
(10:07):
I don't have that.
And as a result, because I thatwas the role that I play in
their lives for the most part, Icouldn't play any role in their
life.
So that's really kind of whereit it um where it came with the
discussion.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
And I think Les that um two the two things that kind
of came front and center for meas you spoke is that one is that
you know big ups to you forsaying that, for asserting your
(10:45):
your needs and acknowledgingkind of your um your boundaries,
right?
When when I talk aboutboundaries, I don't mean how do
you block people or what youexpect from other people.
Boundaries for me are what arethe boundaries that you set for
(11:05):
yourself, right?
If you say um the differencethen is don't call me for the
next six months, or I'll onlytalk to you once a month for the
next six months, so don't callme.
But don't call me, that that'son them.
That's not a boundary.
A boundary is I'm not gonna takeyour calls.
(11:29):
So they can call you 50 milliontimes, but have you kind of set
that up for yourself to say,well, I'm only taking one of
those every month, right?
Yeah, so it's it's it's it'ssomething around your behavior.
And so I want to kind ofacknowledge that you had the,
you know, you you unfortunatelycame from your just you know,
(11:52):
lack, like I can't do thisanymore.
But nonetheless, you didn'tghost, you said, I can't do this
right now.
I have all of these things goingon, I can't do this right now,
right?
The other part of it is that umthe expectation is that you have
(12:16):
the the other person should say,I get it.
You know, is there anything Ican do to help?
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
That was my expectation.
That wasn't what I received.
Right, right.
You know, yeah.
And and traditionally, thesethings become a little dicey
because you feel some um family,you there are family
obligations, not just that youfeel it.
(12:44):
I mean, you spend your wholelife um with family members, and
you do have some obligation.
What I think is new and I guessmore progressive is that I'll
speak for me, but it extends toother people as well.
(13:04):
I'm learning more to protectmyself and put myself first.
And I know that saying, youknow, you gotta put your
seatbelt on or your mask onfirst before you help someone
else.
But as a physician, as a healer,as a mom, I'm always willing to
(13:27):
make sacrifices and hurt inorder to spare my loved ones
from that hurt.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
So, Les, a question about that, right?
Um did did you find that it wasonly when you were in this lack,
like I just cannot, that youwere able to say that, or could
you not really have you, butcould you reach this point
without being in this depletedstate?
SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
No, I could not.
Because I think I'm a a a superperson.
Well, then I thank God.
I thank God.
I think I'm an exceptionalperson in that you know how we
are, we push ourselves more thanwe often ought.
(14:21):
And I would have pushed myselfmore if I were emotionally able
to accommodate someone else.
SPEAKER_03 (14:30):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
You know, I do have difficulty saying no.
Yeah, I much rather feel the umthe hurt or the sequele of
putting myself second because Ifeel I can bear that.
(14:53):
Or I am more able to bear that.
Yeah, you know, I've spent manyyears enabling a former partner,
you know, and I this issomething I learned in therapy
because I felt that in spite ofthe other person's let's say um
(15:22):
um emotional immaturity or badbehavior or whatever, I was the
better person so I can take it.
I'm stronger, so I can take it.
So I don't need as muchprotection as that other person,
perhaps.
SPEAKER_03 (15:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:41):
And right now I'm really coming into this time or
phase of not only seeking umself-protection, but I realize
that I deserve that and it's mybirthright.
You know, I know it's what Godwants for me to be also
(16:06):
protected.
Yeah.
And I think just to close thecircle, why I'm so happy in my
current love relationship.
Because I have someone who'svery, very attentive to my
emotional needs.
(16:28):
Yeah, you know, yeah.
So I think perhaps um knowingwhat that feels like, it was a
little more obvious to see whenI wasn't getting that and when I
was being more depleted.
SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Right.
Right, yeah.
So what what we're not gonna dotoday is to kind of go through
everything that that the thatOprah and um Stephanie Perry and
their guests um uh talked about.
We're gonna touch on on a fewthings, but it was these
conversations were really umjust a way for us to to reflect.
(17:08):
Yeah, for example, somethingthat I was saying to to Leslie
in um Danny, Leslie, did youwrite down her her name, her
full name?
I'm gonna I'm gonna pull it up.
I have it right here.
Um Stephanie's guest was um hername is um Danny Ellison,
(17:30):
D-A-N-I-E-L-L-I-S-O-N.
And her platform is calledReparenting Coach for Black,
she's a reparenting coach forblack women.
Um we'll we'll have links tothis in our episode notes, but
um she her comment about theOprah episode was that let me
(17:58):
just stop you for one second.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Yeah, sure.
How about if we uh if you or Iwill just mention her position
in general?
Your Danny's position.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Um well she had a yeah, she had a lot of
positions, but she she is a sheis someone who um uh uh has um
separated herself from I thinkher mother, who um is according
(18:32):
to Danny, a narcissist.
So guess what?
I'm gonna believe her.
Um her mother's a narcissist.
And um through that experience,she is now a coach, um, very
well credentialed, a lot ofexperience um coaching in this
realm.
And if I we hope that you youtake the time to listen to the
(18:53):
episode again, it's called GoingNo Contact with Narcissistic
Mothers on Stephanie Perry's uhpodcast, Stephanie Perry's
platform.
Um, but her position, Danny'sposition, I think what you mean,
Leslie, in terms of the Oprahepisode, is that it was um it
didn't spend enough time or itkind of gave license to parental
(19:21):
behavior, um, negative parentalbehavior, and may have been a um
uh triggering for some children,adult children who have um
experienced that.
And what I said to Leslie is I'mgonna listen to the Oprah
episode to get a fullunderstanding, but I don't have
(19:41):
a say in whether Danny was rightor wrong.
It hasn't been my experience.
I haven't had a parent who was anarcissist.
Um uh, you know, I I have aparent who was other things, but
not um, so I didn't grow up inthat.
And I'm gonna I'm not listeningto what Oprah and her guests had
(20:04):
to say in kind of, well, do Iagree or disagree with what
Danny had to say?
That's not my job.
That's not my I don't evenbecause I don't have any of my
own experience to say this isvalid or invalid.
Valid or invalid.
Yeah.
Basically, how dare I say that?
It's almost like people, and youguys know that I I often bring
(20:27):
in race into theseconversations, not because it's
the same thing or so on, but Ibelieve that race and the way
that we experience race, racismin America, it gives us a lot of
kind of common understanding ofthings.
And um and so it helps us tokind of understand other things
(20:50):
because of that.
So what do I mean by that inthis case?
What I mean is that it's likesomeone who's never experienced
racism looking at something thatdiscusses race and has an
opinion.
You don't get an opinion.
You your position here is tolisten and learn.
It's not to have an opinion onsomething that you've never
(21:13):
experienced.
So I I was sure I was verycareful to listen, to learn and
learn maybe why Danny had thispoint of view, versus um uh
deciding whether I agree ordisagree.
This was this was a listenthing, right?
SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
Yeah, so what I was struck by, first of all, the
whole concept, and it has thisname, you know, um going no
contact.
And obviously it's an extremebehavior or decision that
people, and it could be childrencould make that decision,
parents can make that decision,friends can make that decision,
(21:54):
and whatever.
Right, right.
Um so it takes an extremeexample, but what Danny was
saying in her case was that aperson who has this mental
illness, this condition ofnarcissism, will not change
their barrent behavior.
(22:15):
And as a result, if we as theirchildren continue to go back to
them with an expectation ofimprovement, or that it'll get
better, or it won't hurt as muchthis time, or now they'll center
me instead of centeringthemselves.
(22:37):
This is a um, she wants to alertfolks that this is a mental
condition that will not change.
Right.
So we then have to change eitherour expectations or we protect
ourselves.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
And what I also said to you, Ange, is that this type
of thing is a spectrum.
It goes from um no contact is onone side of it and full access,
and whatever comes with thatfull access is on the other.
But then there's differentlevels of either we can call it
(23:12):
estrangement or involvement orconnection or whatever, right?
You know, and while I never umconsidered in my situations, and
I've had quite a few situationsof no contact, um I don't need
that level of finality, but I amable and more able to discern
(23:36):
the good the timing for contact.
I'm not ready to talk, I don'thave that, um, you know, and
that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
So I heard you really mention two diff two
different spectrums, right?
Um, one of them is um the levelof contact, right?
It's it's um full contact or nocontact and everything in
between.
And the other spectrum waslevels of um of um let's call it
(24:07):
a thing, of mental illness,right?
It could be zero to uhnarcissism, right?
And so those are two differentthings.
You could have um full contactwith a narcissist, zero contact
with a narcissist, you couldhave full contact with someone
who is a wonderful person, butyou've got your issues, or they
(24:32):
you know what I mean.
Um so it's two different things,and the reason why I call those
things out separately is becauseum you may be somewhere on one
of those spectrums, right?
You could um have decided likeyou did in this moment that I'm
(24:56):
not going to I'm going to limitmy contact to this person and
maybe once a month, once everytwo months I'll check in type of
thing, right?
Um I think there's some should Isay it last?
Um I think that in the situationthat you have, there in there is
(25:19):
some narcissist behaviors at atplay.
Um we've known each other a longtime and you know we we we we
know the people and um but theother thing and and I'm I'm
pushing myself to talk aboutthis because I'm gonna say it
now before I um I I pull itback.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Hold that thought from one minute.
Okay.
Um in Danny Ellison's case, it'sum she speaks specifically about
a narcissistic parent.
Yes.
But it could be any mentalillness, not just narcissism, it
could be, you know, bipolardisorder or manic uh or depre or
(26:05):
severe depression orschizophrenia or whatever.
People may pull away from folksfor a multitude of reasons, or
non-diagnosed.
Um, you know, these people justget on your nerves every time
you speak to them.
You know what I mean?
And we all know people like thatthat, you know, don't answer the
(26:26):
phone right now.
I'm busy, you know, they sapyour energy when you hang up the
phone and you feel like, oh mygosh, and you know, it's like on
and on and on.
I have some co-workers likethat.
But um, but um, you know, yeah,yeah.
So yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
So you were gonna say so but what I want to talk
about is also the work that thethe that you have to do, right?
And all of this and kind of theother people and their
behaviors.
I want to kind of talk about thethe work that you you personally
(27:05):
might might have to do, right?
If somebody is annoying you andyou can't, I mean some of that
could be you, right?
It's not only the other person.
So um what happened with me isum there was a point in my life
where um someone that I wasclose to was going through a
(27:28):
very difficult um time, and theyum came out of contact with me.
And it's someone that I that Ilove deeply, yeah, and it was
one of the hardest things that Iever dealt with.
(27:50):
Um and remember, two things,five things can exist at the
same time.
It was an opportunity for me todo reflection that was one of
the greatest gifts that I everexperienced, and it continues,
(28:12):
it has a real long tail.
And some of what you hear metalking about joy and living joy
and setting joy boundaries andletting joy kind of dictate your
life and and and um hold youaccountable and things like that
came out of that experience.
It was a big part of what led meto therapy, um, how I um evolved
(28:39):
as a as a person, how I um juststarted loving myself and having
a lot of self-compassion andputting things like guilt and
shame and responsibility intotheir place, right?
Um, that you can be responsiblefor something and not have guilt
about it.
Imagine you can be responsiblefor something and not have guilt
(29:01):
about it.
You don't have to give up theresponsibility by giving up the
guilt.
You can be responsible, yeah.
I was responsible for that,okay?
And not have guilt.
It's a process, it's a process,but um that being on the other
(29:22):
side of it was for me anopportunity for growth, and by
the grace of God, I took thatopportunity.
I was compelled to take thatopportunity because this
relationship meant so much tome.
And one of the things thatreally helped me to stay in the
doing the work is that I wantedto be ready for when that person
(29:47):
um reengaged.
I didn't want to be the same.
I didn't want to be the same, Iwanted to be better at managing
myself, my ego, um, notcentering my pain.
Um, my pain is there, butknowing that other people
(30:08):
experience pain too.
And, you know, as the song goes,and it's probably biblical,
everybody thinks their burden isthe heaviest.
Everyone thinking that hisburden is the heaviest, as Bob
Marley would say it.
Every we we often think that ourburdens are the heaviest, and
they're yeah, they're they're uhokay, yes, and what does that
(30:30):
mean?
That yeah, right?
You can have a heavy burden andacknowledge someone else's heavy
burden.
It doesn't have to be a race tothe top, a race to the worst, a
race to the do you know what Imean?
Two people can experience heavyshit, and honoring yours does
not mean dishonoring orminimizing theirs.
And that's a lot of what Ilearned.
(30:52):
And so being on the other side,being the um the person who was
um um who was estranged fromsomeone else, not um, and and it
was not initiated by me, led toum something that I'm really
(31:13):
proud of, something um which isdoing a lot of emotional work
that was became required of mebecause I wanted to be this
better person.
And um, and I am, and and so soI can talk about it really
boldly because I know I did thework and the work continues, but
had it not been for this thingthat forced me into this really
(31:37):
uncomfortable, uh, you know, buthere here I am, and and so it's
not about avoiding, and there'swork that you might have to do.
Um, sometimes it's you know,again, it's a it's a it's an
and, right?
Not just an or, but you may haveto decide, yes, that
(32:01):
estrangement is necessary, anddo your own work, right, uh,
around the role that you played.
You may not have initiated, youmay not have made the situation
worse, but you may have been anenabler, for example.
SPEAKER_06 (32:18):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
And and kind of looking at that enabling thing,
because typically what happensis if you're that in that
relationship, you're that inother relationships, right?
What did I say?
You want to put the bag back on?
No.
I beg your pardon.
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
I was just saying, I'm just saying we need to call
in our anonymous guest again.
G?
G, would you like to come back?
No.
You know, what you were saying,I'll tell you, a number of years
ago, it reminded me of a reallypainful part when um um uh uh
(33:07):
Omari was estranged from me.
And I did not initiate it.
It was well over a year.
He um had no contact with me.
And I do remember so vividly howpainful that was for me.
(33:28):
It was a little bit helpfultrying to imagine that although
we had always been close, forhim to separate himself like
that, he must have beensuffering also.
SPEAKER_03 (33:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:45):
But I think the the thing that made it most
difficult for me is that Ididn't know why.
SPEAKER_05 (33:52):
Right.
Right.
And plus he was ill.
SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
And his and he was ill at the time, um, which
compli I'm sure complicatedeverything.
SPEAKER_05 (34:02):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (34:03):
When you don't know why, unlike in your case, you
had an idea of some of themental um processes and the
problems that your person wasgoing through, I had no idea.
Yeah.
So I really was trying to dosome emotional work on myself,
(34:25):
but in a vacuum, in the absenceof a lot of information.
I see.
So I couldn't confirm whether ornot I was in the right direction
or whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (34:34):
You know, I understand.
SPEAKER_00 (34:35):
I just knew, and I came to learn this a decade
later or so, is that if theperson is experienced something
like this, the it's a two-waystreet.
Yeah.
You know, it can't be all, oh,they're crazy and they're a
(34:56):
burden, and you just gotta pull.
It's a dynamic between the twoof you.
Yeah, for sure.
So I love that you recognizethat there were some alterations
you need to make, you needed tomake in terms of therapy and
changing or whatever.
SPEAKER_05 (35:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
I um I came to that a little bit, it took me a
little bit longer, I think, toum make these changes.
SPEAKER_02 (35:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:23):
You know, I I didn't have a choice.
Right.
And um in the last few weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Well, you say you didn't have a choice, but it's
like we always have choices.
You could say, you know, fuckit.
You know, let them come backwhen they're ready.
That's a narcissistic way tothink about it.
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
I get that, but here's what the point that I'm
making and saying it that way isbecause um sometimes life puts
you in a situation where youhave to step up to go deep.
(36:13):
You have to make really, reallyhard decisions, decisions that
on the outside it may look likeyou know, um, you're you're the
worst person, or how could youdo that, or whatever it is.
But you come to realize that youhave to thank God for it.
(36:36):
Because had it not been for thatoh yeah, that oh yeah, that like
groaning pain, like just all theblood comes out of your just,
you know, you can't even speak.
You you just groan when you'repraying.
(36:58):
When you come to realize thatthat is the moment, that moment
of desperation, I'm gonna sayit, of desperation, when you
have to move out of that.
Like, that's what I meant.
I the compelling for me was thatI need to be better because my
(37:24):
love for this person was sodeep.
I had to, I had to, I had to.
What was the alternative?
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Like, what I I I had to do it, and then too, you also
with your faith, yeah, you knowthat when you do the work, he
rewards you.
Yeah, yeah, when you do thework, his will is done.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Yeah, you know, not none of the surface stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (37:58):
Not at all.
And and and this type of thingtakes so much patience.
It does, yeah.
It takes so much patience.
And you know, just in thinkingabout these this topic, I know
quite a few people who areestranged from their children.
(38:19):
Um, I believe it's the childrenthat have um stepped away, gone
no contact with the parents.
I know at least three um womenwho have no contact with their
children.
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Yeah.
I'm gonna say that one of thethings that I noted, I I think
this was in the the the Oprahconversation, they talked about
um uh different generationalgenerational understandings of
trauma and and abuse and harm,right?
Like back in the day, forexample, um when maybe spankings
(39:01):
or or treating your child acertain way was pretty common,
right?
Or um imposing strict rules onyour child so that they show up
a certain way in society, right?
So that you you look good,you're you're you're making the
family look bad, or things likethat, and putting a lot of that
(39:22):
in in one generation, it mighthave been very common, expected.
In this generation, it may benamed um as as abuse and trauma.
It's so obvious.
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Whereas parents would say, wait a minute, I wish
I had the children.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (39:39):
Oh, you're lucky.
You only got sprang with my handand not with the with the um
with the um electrical cord, oryou know, just things like that,
where um things that were commonin the past are not common now.
So that I thought was a reallyinteresting way of kind of
looking at this too.
SPEAKER_00 (39:57):
But one thing that I've Always been well aware of,
and it's really important inthis context is that we can't
negate the experience of thenarrator.
Okay.
You know, it's so common, likeyou know, I said I'm sorry, or
(40:22):
but you you you're doing okaynow, aren't you?
Right.
Or these types of things.
It's like, well, I said I'msorry, and I really didn't mean
it.
SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
Well, you know, intent doesn't take away pain.
Somebody ran over your toe.
Your toe hurts.
They didn't mean to do it, butit's still broken.
It's still broke.
That shit's broke.
So, so you know what I mean?
So it's not the the perpetratordoesn't tell the victim when
(40:53):
they've had enough or when theycan come back.
Indeed.
It shouldn't hurt you so much.
No, but you had enough time.
You had enough time.
But I'm your sister.
Yes.
But I'm your husband.
Right.
I'm your mother.
I'm your father.
You know what I mean?
So you owe me a connection, eventhough it's painful for you.
(41:15):
Yeah.
You know, intentionally or not.
You know?
SPEAKER_03 (41:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
I'm not, there's no blame here.
Right.
I just need to know what I needto do to protect myself at a
time when I'm emotionallyvulnerable.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (41:30):
Right.
unknown (41:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
It can be.
And what I loved about that wasthat every parent, any parent or
friend or loved one shouldapplaud your decision at
self-protection.
Because you don't want them tobe selfish and say, it would be
(41:54):
nice, but I still want you to bewith me, even if you're
suffering.
Like who would want that?
Right.
Right.
Right.
You know, when I it reminds mewhen I separated from my former
spouse, I wish that he wouldfind another partner that is
(42:14):
suitable and makes him happy andlives out his days and cares for
him in the way that he didn'tget from me.
Or he didn't feel he could get.
You know what I mean?
It's like, if I'm not with you,that doesn't mean that I don't
wish you well.
Right.
(42:34):
You know, or I negate the thedifficulty that you say you had
or what have you.
No.
You know, we we still have tovalidate each other's feelings.
And if we love someone, if theysay, you know, I need some
peace, I need a break, I need tomove away, this is not working
for me.
(42:56):
It can it might be painful, butI think that we need to respect
that if we care.
SPEAKER_01 (43:02):
Yeah.
I I think so too.
SPEAKER_00 (43:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
I think it's saying something, you know, to the
other person.
It's saying that you're honoringuh their decision.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:16):
And I feel um bad.
It it it's hurtful that when Ihad the conversation with um my
person, I um they didn'tunderstand my position.
They couldn't understand whyeven the mess that my life has
(43:38):
been lately.
And it's been joyful too, butthe messy parts of it, they
still couldn't understand why Ineeded a break.
SPEAKER_02 (43:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
You know.
SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
So a challenge is coming.
So you mentioned before when inin contrast between my what
happened with me and whathappened with with you, you said
that um but I knew you know whatthe situation was and and you
(44:10):
didn't know.
My question is um for you orthose out there who are um
wanting to or are estranged froma loved one, whether they know,
did you just cut off, did youtell them, do they know what
(44:37):
they did so that they can go dothe work?
Or have you just cut them offand feel so that you don't you
you know, and it no judgment,because it could be that you
have no emotional bandwidth todo that, right?
Yeah, but that is a question.
(44:58):
Let me tell you how to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (44:59):
Have you told them?
Have you told them what I think?
Okay, go what I honestly thinkwhat happens most often is that
person is telling us often andwe're not listening.
Say more.
What I mean is I think inOmari's case, yeah, he likely
(45:25):
was saying many things if I wereable to hear him.
Yes.
But very often we don't hearpeople because we have a certain
dynamic.
SPEAKER_05 (45:38):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
You know, so the dynamic is I tell him what to
do, even though he's a grown-upliving on his own, yes, and his
role is to listen and obey.
SPEAKER_05 (45:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
And perhaps when he no longer wanted to do that,
that's when he knew that Iwouldn't understand.
In other words, we need to givethe other person space to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (46:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:01):
We need to make it not easy, but we need to be
approachable.
SPEAKER_03 (46:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
And let that, you know, it just reminds me of a
situation again in my um myprevious relationship where I
would complain about a certainthing.
You never tell me this, younever tell me this.
And then what I really thoughtabout is like, well, do I make
it safe for him to tell me that?
(46:31):
When he has told me this, whatis my reaction?
SPEAKER_02 (46:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
You know?
So am I really asking fordisclosure?
Am I making it safe for thislevel of disclosure?
And these are difficultconversations.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
And that reaction could be that you start crying.
That is not creating a safe.
That's something I learned.
That's something I learned.
What did I do I didn't mean todo?
That is not the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
What made you bring that up when I was talking
about?
No, you didn't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:09):
That was that was did I do that?
That was definitely me.
Some stuff that I had to grow myass out of.
Like that is not making it aboutyou.
Yeah.
No.
This hurts me so much.
Don't do this to me.
I didn't mean to do that to you.
What?
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
That's not safety.
So listen, remember when I toldyou about, I won't mention his
name, but that he is estrangedfrom his sister.
And what I kept saying to himis, why don't you be the bigger
person and you make up?
(47:51):
Why don't you be the biggerperson?
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
And he has had no contact with this person for a
number of years now.
But I kept saying, such a niceguy, and this, and you be the
bigger person.
I and you pointed out to me thatby telling him and advising him
(48:14):
to do that, you are negating hisfeelings and disrespecting his
emotions and his emotionaltrauma from the hurt and the
relationship.
He too was hurt.
SPEAKER_02 (48:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (48:29):
So why should his hurt be minimized and he should
make up to someone who hurt him?
And likely, and likely he knowswho this person is.
Yeah.
And he would make himself morevulnerable again.
SPEAKER_01 (48:43):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, Les.
I'm still learning.
I'm so glad you took off.
Um, I'm so glad that uh my um uhmy guest went away and and you
joined us.
SPEAKER_00 (49:05):
Because you outed me.
SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
Did me too.
I didn't she's like practicehere.
I didn't practice.
Listen, listen.
Leslie, if you haven't noticed,Leslie is one of the funniest
people that I know, that I know.
I it can be any conversationlike this one, and Leslie can
(49:30):
have me on the floor laughing.
Imagine we come on, we startrecording, I you know, I put on
camera and I see this bag.
SPEAKER_00 (49:43):
But initially the bag didn't have eye holes.
When I'm the eye holes, I saidto myself, I don't know where to
look.
Like, what difference did thatmake?
And then I poked the holes whereI thought my eyeballs and I'm
missing myself in the eye.
(50:05):
I had to push the cardboard, itwas a little thick.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
It was it was a little card stocking.
Oh my gosh.
Anyway, um humorous healththough, right?
Really, really interestingstuff.
Thanks for um for say yes toengaging in this conversation.
I know that you know your stuffis a little more present than
mine right now, but we all gothrough it, right?
(50:30):
We all go through it, and umyeah, so we will put links to
the two YouTube videos that wementioned.
SPEAKER_00 (50:40):
So interesting.
And tell us what you think aboutthis.
This is like is it selfish?
Is it self-protective?
SPEAKER_01 (50:49):
Is it you know yeah.
What are you doing if you're inon either side of this?
Um, what are you what are youdoing?
What are some of the things?
And um, whether any of our storyresonated for you, we'd love to
hear from you.
SPEAKER_00 (51:03):
And until then, this has been go ahead, let's episode
of Black Boomer Besties fromBrooklyn, Brooklyn.
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