July 15, 2025 • 40 mins
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The Besties talk about joy A LOT! And want to make sure that people are getting its true meaning, and what it’s not, to stay clear of all the toxic positivity out there.
Toxic positivity occurs when people don't allow themselves or others to experience hard emotions, quickly trying to move them to a "positive" place.
Joy requires going through difficulty and sometimes involves setting boundaries or doing hard things for long-term fulfillment, and boy is it worth it!
Links to references:
The Messy Middle | Pastor Desiree Elder | FCBCNYC
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey Ange, Hello Les, how are you?
Hello again, because I just sawyou so good.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So, good, so good.
I was able to touch you forreal.
For real, this summer has been,you know, full of Les.
It's been a very Leslie-fulsummer.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Leslie-ful.
I like that In this country andabroad In this country and
abroad, and there's more tofollow.
Yeah, this has been good, thishas been good.
Good to see you again.
Thank you, so welcome toanother episode of Black Boomer
Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm Anjala and that's Leslie, my best friend of
almost 50 years.
We are two free-thinking60-something-year-old Black
women and we have decided to bemore bold and joyful in our
lives and we invite you to joinus.
Oh, today we're going to betalking about something.
(01:05):
Listen, there are a few thingsthat converge for me and I'm
like Les, this is the topic thisweek.
You know, we're always talkingabout joy on this podcast, on
this channel.
Joy is one of the things thatwe have committed to.
Joy is one of the things thatwe have committed to.
I've written a book which talksabout joy.
(01:27):
I use joy.
I refer to myself as a joystrategist.
I'll talk to you a little bitmore about that later.
But there is something thatkind of bugs me about the way
that people think about joy andhappiness and how it can become
kind of.
(01:47):
The term is like toxic, a toxicpositivity, like when you're,
if there's joy, there shouldn'tbe pain and sorrow and grief and
all of those things.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Like they can't coexist, like they shouldn't
coexist like they shouldn'tcoexist, like joy is all the way
here, but then there's nothingelse.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Exactly, and any other feelings are considered
invalid.
So it was bugging me.
I also heard this broadcast onSunday, two Sundays ago, and it
was a sermon that I heard and,uh it, it just started to
(02:31):
converge into this idea.
So you know, Les, she's like,yes, let's do it.
And so we're doing it.
So we're going to be talkingabout joy and toxic positivity
today.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm feeling rather happy but also joyful right now,
because I had a prettyimportant meeting today.
Yes, you did, and it reallysignified like an end of one
chapter, beginning of anotherchapter.
I'm moving into another stagein my life.
I'm happy.
I'm at the beginning of anotherchapter.
(03:04):
I'm moving into another stagein my life.
I'm happy, I'm feeling joyfuland I'm just Ready to go.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Ready to go.
It's called we're Too Old forthis, and it's a book that gets
us to think about joy in a newway, and I want to read a little
bit about what joy is and whatjoy isn't.
You'll see why joy is sodifferent than happy.
(03:44):
So, I'll just read a few linesfrom my book.
It says desire more joy.
As you read further, and fromnow on I encourage you to hold
this expanded view of joy.
Joy is a deep well offulfillment.
(04:04):
It is more firm, foundationaland fierce than happiness.
It's a body of work dedicatedto your authenticity, the real
you, your liberation, the freeyou, and courage, the actualized
you.
And the last thing I'll sayhere, because it goes on it is a
(04:30):
tree that keeps you rootedthrough life's challenges.
This is what joy means in theway that Leslie and I talk about
it, and I hope you canunderstand how different that is
from happy, which is wonderful.
We're not knocking happy.
(04:50):
We never want to knock happy.
We just want to call out thedifference between joy and
happiness, because joy requiresthat we go through difficulty,
because sometimes joy will saythat relationship isn't right
(05:11):
for you.
Joy will say you need to setsome boundaries.
Joy will say do this hard thingso that you can live in a place
of joy for an extended periodof time, of joy for an extended
period of time.
So joy is this very kind ofserious concept, even though
it's this beautiful, light wordthat we throw around all the
(05:33):
time.
I wanted to just give it itsdue in this conversation.
Exactly, and it's respect,right.
So I mentioned that we want totalk about toxic positivity, and
what that really means is thatyou understand what positivity
(05:56):
is.
Everything is happy.
It becomes toxic when you donot allow people to experience
the hard parts of life.
When you quickly want to movesomeone who is in grief to, you
(06:17):
know everything happens for apurpose.
He's in a better place.
He's in a better place and youdon't want to to.
It's almost like you're doingit for yourself.
You don't want to experiencethe negative emotion, so you're
telling the person who'sgrieving to move on quickly from
this.
(06:38):
The state right and it's anoverdoing of that.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
But what I also think when I because I'm guilty of it
we all are you know wantingyour someone you care deeply
about.
I don't want to see my lovedones in pain.
Yes, so when I see them in pain, I do, I make comments, hoping
that they get through thatpainful period onto the next
(07:04):
thing.
So consoling them through it,right.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So I wonder, because some of the words that I heard
you say were I wanted them.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I don't want them to feel I and.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I don't want to see my.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
you know, it's me, me , me, You're right.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yes, and so we're hoping that this episode will
get you to start thinking aboutthese things a little more
deeply.
If you remember I think it waslast week, maybe it was the week
before our episode it was aboutfriendships and Leslie shared
(07:49):
with you a conversation that wehad where I was not considering
the timing Right, and that is apart of how you can manage.
This toxic positivity thing isfor you to think about timing.
It may be an appropriate thingto say, but when?
(08:11):
When is the right time to sayit Is the time to say it.
When you just heard from afriend that you know their
parent is ill or that they justlost the job, is that the first
thing you say to them?
Probably, you know.
It's just that.
I just want you to be sensitiveto these things and to think a
(08:35):
little more deeply, because youknow, leslie and I are deep
thinkers over here.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
We don't overthink a little more deeply than others
listen one of us who isinfluencing the other.
You got to catch me on a goodday for me to get really deep.
I love being superficial.
You know how our currentpresident said I love the
uneducated.
You know, I love being asuperficial thinker.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, I wanted to do a couple of things right.
I want you to think about thefact that.
Think about a situation, les,that you might have been in,
where you did exactly what youjust described you wanted to
console, and the way youconsoled was to put a positive
(09:24):
spin on it.
Can you think of any situationlike that?
Actually, you don't have to godeep.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I'm kind of convicted in one respect, and either you
were in the car or I wasspeaking to.
You were in the car.
You were in the car when thishappened and I love the fact
that you make complicated thingsso crystal clear to me.
Okay, and I think I'm open toit because I was telling you
(09:53):
about a friend who was somewhatestranged from someone close to
them, right, and he describeshow I think they may have had an
(10:17):
postures or attempts toreconcile, but the other person
really wasn't having it.
So, you know, he kind of walkedaway and said oh well, you know
, whatever it's lost.
I, on the other hand, I said tohim, I said why don't you be
the better guy?
Why don't you be the biggerperson?
(10:40):
That's a great example, and youlet's say that you're a little
deeper than they are, or you'rea little, you know, more in
tuned with your feelings, orwhatever, or why don't you set
yourself up as an example?
Why don't you continue to makeefforts at reconciliation and be
(11:02):
the bigger guy and put itbehind you, keep going back,
keep going back.
You know, and I thought thatthat was such a reasonable thing
to advise.
You know, but you then turnedit around, as you always do.
For goodness sake, why don'tyou just let me sit in it, Just
(11:23):
let me sit in my wisdom?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Just let me live.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Just let me live for God's sakes.
And here you are.
But Les, on the other hand,here you are.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Consider this.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Consider this and I'm like too soon.
I was just patting myself onthe back for the breakthrough.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Isn't that good, ash, isn't that good?
Hi, friend, it's Angella.
I hope you're enjoying theepisode.
Listen.
Did you know that the BlackBoomer Besties from Brooklyn
podcast began when I decidedthat I wanted to do something
bold and joyful in my life?
(12:07):
I help older women create morejoyful living and more
joy-filled money-making in theirnext chapter.
So if you're at what I call thewhat's next phase of life empty
nesting, retiring, perhapsdivorcing and you want some help
(12:30):
, you know that joy is somethingthat you seek.
Allow me to be your coach.
You can book a freeconsultation with me.
You will get a free copy of myebook we're too old for this and
you'll see whether my coachingis just right for you.
I will leave a link below tomake it super easy for you, and
(12:54):
I look forward to speaking withyou.
Oh, I forgot to mention thatI'm only taking on five new
clients each quarter.
That, my dear, is a joyboundary that I've set for
myself and I'm going to beteaching you oh, so many
boundaries that you can createin your life to protect your joy
(13:14):
.
Go ahead and schedule thatconsultation and we'll talk more
about it.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So what you said to me, though, first of all, my
friend, he wasn't having it.
He was like you know, I'm done,I'm done.
But what you also said to meand I was presenting this to you
as I think he was being alittle rigid and unreasonable,
yeah, yeah.
And what you said to me is,like Les, in what you're saying
(13:48):
and suggesting to him, in youreffort, you're discounting his
feelings, you're discounting theamount of emotional distress
that he was put through in thisincident by you, with this
positivity and everything'sgreat and you'll be the bigger
guy and whatever.
You are not validating his hurtor his pain by asking him to so
(14:19):
quickly give it up and abandonit.
And it was so crystal clear withthat that here I am.
You know the ah, put a bright,you know you could be the bigger
guy.
Oh, get over it, it's okay,it's okay.
But you know what he's tellingme.
It's not okay with me, right?
And I wasn't really respectingthat by telling him to abandon
(14:44):
that.
It's almost like when someonehurts you and hurts you, let's
just say, and they say to youget over it.
I said, I'm sorry, get over it.
You know, I'm sorry, get overit.
You know, it's like can we justmove on?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Can we?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
move on.
You know, we see that insociety a lot.
We see it in culture, we see itin racism, we see it in other
things.
You know it's like wait aminute, no, we can't.
If you tell me I must move onand get over it, then you don't
understand the impact in my pain.
(15:19):
And when you said that to me,doggone it I was in such a
lively conversation.
I was so good, but I reallypaused and I understood
completely what you meant.
(15:40):
Yeah, and I no longer pushed forhim to make an effort like that
.
Instead, I turned and turned myposture into.
You know, I understand how thismust be.
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah howthis must be.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, you know the thing isit's like this is not like, uh,
about you know, being perfectand getting it right all the
time.
It's, it's really just anawareness that we're we're
creating here for you, hopefully, um, to read the room a little
bit, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
to kind of um, be more mindful of the how others
may take your words, right,that's what it is, because
remember, and when we're, whenI'll say for speak for myself,
when I'm reading the room, right, unfortunately I'm coming
(16:33):
through leslie lens, yeah it'sme centered and yeah, do that's
what human beings do.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
It's a, it's almost like a protect, a protective
thing.
You know what I mean.
To think that we're the center,but but we know that that we're
not.
And, depending on who we'reworking with, some of this
learning that I got to kind ofmove me to understanding these
ideas a little bit better isthrough my children, right.
(17:01):
In particular, I remember twothings.
I'll just mention one of themwhere they had to remind me that
(17:21):
the way I experienced and kindof got over my divorce from
their dad is very different thantheir experience and how they
got over it, their experienceand how they got over it.
So me kind of getting to thepoint where I've moved on, or
(17:42):
you know, I'm kind of seeinglife without him and so on and
so on, and moving in that wayand speaking in that way and
expecting that they're going tokind of have that same, that's
that transformation, in the sametiming as me.
It was like not good parenting,right there, right To, to, to,
(18:03):
not.
In essence, what I was doing ispulling them along to where I
was instead of allowing them togrieve the loss of the life that
we had.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know what I mean, andyou, know, I went through that
exact same thing with Omarirecently where I had to step
back and I say, not only did Ileave a marriage, but Omari lost
a father figure to him.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Right, you know a significant person in his life,
exactly you know, and it didn'teven occur to me.
You know a significant personin his life, exactly, you know,
and it didn't even occur to me,you know to consider how he was
experiencing my loss.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Pain, grief you know Right, yeah, right yeah, and I
love the fact that he was therefor me and he never said you
know, mom, I'm hurting too.
You know that's really not whohe is, but I had to come to that
realization and I apologized tohim.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Ooh Les, I love that.
Well, I couldn't know how tosay I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
every decade or so, all right, what year is this?
What year is this?
All right, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I'm good You've already told on yourself that
you don't apologize with ease.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
No, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You've already told on yourself.
So, I wanted to kind of saythat some of what the toxic
positivity does is it createsshame, right, because you're
telling the other person thatthere's something wrong with
them.
Their emotions don't count.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
It causes guilt.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well, what's wrong with me if I can't get over it?
Right, Something must be wrongwith me if I can't get over it
Right.
Something must be wrong with meand, as I said before, it's
those words that you offer withgood intent.
They, a lot of times, are tohelp you, not to help the other
(20:10):
person because you're ready tomove on you figure like I'm a
drop this positive bomb on themand it's ready to move on.
You figure like I'm going todrop this positive bomb on them
and it's going to take away, andthen I, and then I don't have
to be there for them, then Idon't have to console them,
because but then I get to checkit off my list.
That's the better thing.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I know I can speak for myself and that's not my
motivation.
What it is is I don't wantloved ones suffering and in pain
.
Yeah, yeah you know, so if youdo this, this, this, yeah,
things will get better.
Why?
Don't you get over it so thatyou can feel joyful again.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Right, but I'm going to tilt that a little bit
because we're not far off.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Right, one time was a little sinister.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
You're saying that you want.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, wow.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
You're saying that you want to help them and so on.
Consider that it is a sell foryou.
Listen.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
No, I understand.
You're right about that.
Listen to this.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
We know that these positive emotions feel good,
right.
We also know that negativeemotions are also a part of life
and they are also helpful.
We were given feelings of fearso we could run away from a bear
that's chasing us.
(21:52):
Our body, our physiologyresponds to fear, right.
Negative emotions are for ourgood, and to like not or to want
us to move out of it tooquickly, to want people to move
out of those feelings tooquickly, is where we run into
trouble, because what we'recommunicating really is that
(22:14):
when you feel that way, there'ssomething wrong with you.
Yes, that is what I mean, andthat creates a sense of well,
why can't I get over this?
I should be over this already.
You know what I mean.
Something's wrong with me.
This person took that time.
They go into hiding.
I don't want people to see mesad.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
So I'm going to go over there and be sad by myself
when what they?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
really want is friendship and community.
You know what I'm saying.
So I don't mean that theintention is bad.
Not at all.
I don't mean that the intentionis bad.
I mean that the effect on theother person.
You should consider that thatcould be.
And here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to give you all somealternatives, okay.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, but before you do that, what I just want to say
is that this is something thatyou know that I've struggled
with and this is something thatyou've tried to help me get
through.
You know, I am this very blackand white.
I want to.
If something negative or badhappens and as life, you know,
(23:23):
does I want to let me hurry upthrough it so I can get to the
other end.
I know that things happen for areason.
I do know that I always learnfrom adverse circumstances that
I've been.
I know that.
I also know what it feels liketo look at something in the rear
(23:47):
view mirror and have that painand angst behind you.
But you even recentlyencouraged me.
You know it's like, but youeven recently encouraged me.
You know it's like don't try torush through.
You got to what.
What is the words that you say?
You got to feel the feels.
You got to feels the feels, andI don't like that.
(24:08):
Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
So I wouldn't mind being a little numb through and
then it's like ta-da here I am.
Life is good again.
I'm serious about that.
I know you are.
You know I struggle with that.
(24:40):
Don't sit in.
And I'm going to quote whatPastor Desiree, elder of FCBC,
said.
This isn't a term that shecoined, but she used it in her
sermon.
We'll put a link to it.
The messy middle right, the.
You need to sit sometimesinstead of rushing, because
you're rushing and you'remissing the lesson of the messy
(25:02):
middle.
You don't like the mess, I getthat.
The mess isn't something thatyou like the mess is something
that you respect and allow it todo its work.
And allow it to do its workRight.
And so the allowing people tofeel these feels causes them to
(25:23):
not suppress right, to not hide,to not pretend to not, you know
, want to make you happy.
You can imagine, as a parent,how many times your children are
withholding things or notwanting to upset you.
Or you know you have this, this, this kind of um, it's, it's a
(25:46):
privilege of your position thatyou have as a parent with your
children that you're like I'mjust, you're just you, but to
them you're like, right underGod, you know what I mean.
And so a lot of the times theywill withhold because they don't
(26:06):
want you to be upset or theywant you know, they see that
you're in a happy place and theywant, they don't want to
disturb that and those types ofthings.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So again, that's another thing I've experienced.
It's just awareness.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Exactly, it's just an awareness, so I'm going to um,
so I'm listening From it.
(26:43):
Could?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
be worse to I'm here no matter what?
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
So those from.
They're so cliched and so oftenused that it's hard to even
change the language to conveymore of the message that you're
(27:06):
pointing us to.
Yeah, we have to pay it andthank you for this.
This is helpful, so go ahead,you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yes, and this is the thing.
These are the nuances, right.
When we talk about joy, thesenuances matter Every time, like
Leslie just said, you feel, oh,it's just that thing, right.
You see something posted onFacebook and someone is going
through a rough time and youimmediately want to say
something positive.
Just give it a minute.
(27:36):
Just think about what differentcould you say, for example,
from things happen for a reasonto.
That must be really hard.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Why is it that I've said all the froms, I've never
said the twos?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
What the heck, Leslie ?
Okay, so let me continue.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Sorry, go ahead.
I know this is serious.
I cannot.
I'm just feeling convicted.
We all are Les.
Go ahead.
I know this is serious, Icannot.
Before I get out, I'm justfeeling convicted.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's we all are.
Les, listen, listen this againawareness is the start of every
change right.
From failure isn't an option toyour feelings are valid.
I don't know if you can hearwe're getting a thunderstorm
here yeah.
(28:37):
From happiness is a choice.
I've seen that hashtagHappiness is a choice.
To the middle is messy.
It's little shifts.
It's these little shifts and Ithink, like the key thing is to
(29:01):
just hold a second, uncenteryourself.
And I'm not saying you do thison purpose, I'm saying that if
you, if you consider that itwill help you, you Okay, right,
okay, uncenter yourself and sayhow can I be there for this
(29:23):
person and not kind of layerthis way too soon positivity on
them?
How can you give them a momentto sit in what they're feeling?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So yeah, or not even positivity.
I remember.
See, now I can't even tellsomeone who's suffered you know
will announce a death or whathave you.
Yeah, I can't say I'm sorry foryour loss anymore because you
we had that conversation aboutthat and it's like, well, I am
(29:56):
sorry if I feel bad, that theyand you're like there, you go
again.
This is not about them.
You are expressing your sorrow,right, yes, when they need
something that would fulfill andfortify them, they don't want
to know about my sorrow.
(30:18):
At that time they got their own.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
They don't want to know what you feel sorry about.
Yes, it's.
How can you help?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
them.
So you know what I say.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Instead, if there's anything, I can do for you,
please let me know.
I'm just saying, you see, thisis.
Maybe I'll send her this youjust put a sad, a sad emoji my
mom would say you take my joke,you take my joke.
(30:50):
This is, this is, this is not.
It's not a leslie.
You can get me to laugh throughanything.
That's not a Leslie you can getme to laugh through anything.
That's all I have to say youcan get me to laugh through
anything I know.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
And this is more serious than I'm making- it.
It's just that I'm laughingbecause there's a little level
of discomfort in me.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yes, of course, of course, and you know this, this
idea.
I'm glad you brought up the oneabout how we respond to
people's sorrow, online,typically, or in person.
Yeah, you know my condolences.
There's nothing wrong withsaying I'm sorry for your loss,
(31:27):
yeah, might it be a little moremeaningful because you're sorry
for the loss, and then you kindof move on right, think about
what you might say to God, whatyou might say to God on their
behalf, and say that instead,like you wouldn't say to God, oh
(31:54):
, I'm sorry for their loss, youwould say God, please bless them
, help them, encourage themthrough their time of trouble.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Right, that Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Because those are true things that we do feel,
absolutely, absolutely.
We are just not using the wordsor tapping into the real
emotion behind those absolutelyI'm sorry that's helpful.
You know what listen.
You're a keeper, you're gonnado, it's not working doggone
(32:28):
keeper I told you you were offprobation for a reason I am, I'm
, I'm so locked in now, yeah,but that's real, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
It is, you're welcome and, again, it's a process.
We're hoping that by bringingthis to your attention, you can
make these small shifts thatmake all the difference.
And there you make these shiftsfor a period of time and it
becomes your new normal.
These shifts for a period oftime and it becomes your new
(32:59):
normal.
I don't say, I don't say youknow, I'm sorry, I don't use
that language anymore, I don'tdo it anymore.
I used to do it all the time.
I don't do it anymore becauseit became a habit.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, it became a habit and I think it's so
habitual that people actuallywill probably hear it like that.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
So it just becomes part of the noise when it's not.
That's not your intent, that'snot where your heart is Exactly
and that's not what you want toconvey.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That's a great point Exactly.
Can I just mention something?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
about this messy middle part.
I know and you know people whoknow me and my personality I'm
not only am I black and white,but I am, I guess, impatient.
In many ways I'm very resultsoriented yes, results oriented.
(33:55):
So what makes me uncomfortableon the journey is that I want to
get there and I want to thenlive there.
So I want to move from here tohere and forget all that fluff
in the middle, because I'maction oriented and I want to
(34:16):
see results quickly.
I mean, that could be why I'man anesthesiologist, we're in
the OR and I want to see aneffect of any medication I give
right now.
I'm not an internist.
I don't have time for thepatient to come back in 12 weeks
and tell me how it went.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Right, you know, you're aligned.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's a matter of yeah , there is a lot of avoidance in
there, you know, avoiding thestress or the distress of the,
you know, the journey, thejourney, you know.
But it also is that quitenaturally so I want to see the
(34:58):
result of my efforts as quicklyas possible.
Sure, and I guess it might looklike impatience in some way or
avoidance of that pain of thetravails in the journey or
whatever it could be.
Yeah, but again, I do recognizethat there is benefit and so
(35:23):
much good education from lookingback yep, yep, it is, it is
You're missing.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
You're missing some things.
And it doesn't mean, les, thatsomeone who's wired like you
that this requires a big changein you.
This isn't about these wide.
I used to be someone who wasblack and white and now, nope,
(36:05):
now everything is gray for meand it's no.
And don't expect that ofyourself.
Don't expect that of yourselfbecause you, being that way, is
also, um, a really wonderfulthing.
You're a wonderfulanesthesiologist.
You, you know what I mean.
You, you are results oriented.
(36:25):
You, you do um, uh, you plan A,b, c, d, e, f G.
Plan a, b, c, d, e, f g beforeyou go into the operating room.
Yeah right, um.
So these, these ways of being,is not to um, you know, kind of
um, um, oh, I want to changethis way about me.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
It's just about awareness, it's just about
awareness and making theselittle things.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
You know.
There used to be this show Iused to watch where oh boy.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Is it British?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
No, okay, I'm not going to go into it deeply.
But you know you have thesepeople in your life who someone
will say, oh my God, that'samazing.
And then you have other peoplelike, yes, all right.
And you know those two are thesame because usually that other
person will say nothing.
And when they say, yeah, it'sall right.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That means it's big for them.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
So when you, the way that you're wired when you do
these things, people will noticebecause it's big with them.
They're used to you showing upthis other way and then they
know that you took the time tomake this little change on their
behalf.
So it's not about trying tolike typically when I, when I,
you know, bring these things,it's not in any way these, um,
(37:50):
you know, changing oneself.
Fundamentally, it's just anawareness, so you can tweak,
just an awareness, so you cantweak.
So we can, so we can tweak.
We all listen.
I'm a, I'm a tweet, I willtweak.
I'm a tweaker.
You're a tweaker, I'm a tweaker, I'm a tweaker.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned that about
the excited and some people andwhatever, because Rick is like
that, like, um, if this is hisexcited face, right, or this is,
let's just say this is hisnormal face and then like, if
something really great happens,this is his excited face and I'm
(38:35):
like, isn't this wonderful?
And you know me, isn't thisgreat?
Wait, I got something great foryou.
Listen, check this out.
And he's like, yeah, it's great, you know it's like.
I'm like, oh, that's yourexcited face that's exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Anyway, guys, thanks forlistening.
We hope this was helpful, andum just creates a little shift.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
We just need little shifts to bring more joy in just
little shifts and and I'm sorryfor making so many jokes and
stuff I think this was my, uh,my nervousness talking and, and
you know, it's like how?
I know she's talking about me,sounds like somebody I know, um,
but this is not something thatyou, a conversation that you and
(39:32):
I.
We have these conversations allthe time.
You know, it's like you'retelling me les stop trying to
escape where you are, sit in it,you know?
And um, yeah, are you safe overthere with the thunder and all
that?
I know there's been crazy stuffgoing on you okay yeah, um the.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I don't know if this is still the remnant of the
storm that hit um texas, chantalyeah it was in our neighboring
um I heard our neighboring ourneighboring county um yesterday
and there there were a couple ofdeaths, I think.
But I think I'm staying insideand I checked to make sure that
(40:19):
my windows were up.
My car windows were up and myscreen, my sunroof, so it should
be all good, alright, guys.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, thank you for listening.
This has been another episodeof Black Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn, brooklyn.
Hey Ange, Hello Les, how are you?
Hello again, because I just sawyou so good.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So, good, so good.
I was able to touch you forreal.
For real, this summer has been,you know, full of Les.
It's been a very Leslie-fulsummer.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Leslie-ful.
I like that In this country andabroad In this country and
abroad, and there's more tofollow.
Yeah, this has been good, thishas been good.
Good to see you again.
Thank you, so welcome toanother episode of Black Boomer
Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm Anjala and that's Leslie, my best friend of
almost 50 years.
We are two free-thinking60-something-year-old Black
women and we have decided to bemore bold and joyful in our
lives and we invite you to joinus.
Oh, today we're going to betalking about something.
(01:05):
Listen, there are a few thingsthat converge for me and I'm
like Les, this is the topic thisweek.
You know, we're always talkingabout joy on this podcast, on
this channel.
Joy is one of the things thatwe have committed to.
Joy is one of the things thatwe have committed to.
I've written a book which talksabout joy.
(01:27):
I use joy.
I refer to myself as a joystrategist.
I'll talk to you a little bitmore about that later.
But there is something thatkind of bugs me about the way
that people think about joy andhappiness and how it can become
kind of.
(01:47):
The term is like toxic, a toxicpositivity, like when you're,
if there's joy, there shouldn'tbe pain and sorrow and grief and
all of those things.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Like they can't coexist, like they shouldn't
coexist like they shouldn'tcoexist, like joy is all the way
here, but then there's nothingelse.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Exactly, and any other feelings are considered
invalid.
So it was bugging me.
I also heard this broadcast onSunday, two Sundays ago, and it
was a sermon that I heard and,uh it, it just started to
(02:31):
converge into this idea.
So you know, Les, she's like,yes, let's do it.
And so we're doing it.
So we're going to be talkingabout joy and toxic positivity
today.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm feeling rather happy but also joyful right now,
because I had a prettyimportant meeting today.
Yes, you did, and it reallysignified like an end of one
chapter, beginning of anotherchapter.
I'm moving into another stagein my life.
I'm happy.
I'm at the beginning of anotherchapter.
(03:04):
I'm moving into another stagein my life.
I'm happy, I'm feeling joyfuland I'm just Ready to go.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Ready to go.
It's called we're Too Old forthis, and it's a book that gets
us to think about joy in a newway, and I want to read a little
bit about what joy is and whatjoy isn't.
You'll see why joy is sodifferent than happy.
(03:44):
So, I'll just read a few linesfrom my book.
It says desire more joy.
As you read further, and fromnow on I encourage you to hold
this expanded view of joy.
Joy is a deep well offulfillment.
(04:04):
It is more firm, foundationaland fierce than happiness.
It's a body of work dedicatedto your authenticity, the real
you, your liberation, the freeyou, and courage, the actualized
you.
And the last thing I'll sayhere, because it goes on it is a
(04:30):
tree that keeps you rootedthrough life's challenges.
This is what joy means in theway that Leslie and I talk about
it, and I hope you canunderstand how different that is
from happy, which is wonderful.
We're not knocking happy.
(04:50):
We never want to knock happy.
We just want to call out thedifference between joy and
happiness, because joy requiresthat we go through difficulty,
because sometimes joy will saythat relationship isn't right
(05:11):
for you.
Joy will say you need to setsome boundaries.
Joy will say do this hard thingso that you can live in a place
of joy for an extended periodof time, of joy for an extended
period of time.
So joy is this very kind ofserious concept, even though
it's this beautiful, light wordthat we throw around all the
(05:33):
time.
I wanted to just give it itsdue in this conversation.
Exactly, and it's respect,right.
So I mentioned that we want totalk about toxic positivity, and
what that really means is thatyou understand what positivity
(05:56):
is.
Everything is happy.
It becomes toxic when you donot allow people to experience
the hard parts of life.
When you quickly want to movesomeone who is in grief to, you
(06:17):
know everything happens for apurpose.
He's in a better place.
He's in a better place and youdon't want to to.
It's almost like you're doingit for yourself.
You don't want to experiencethe negative emotion, so you're
telling the person who'sgrieving to move on quickly from
this.
(06:38):
The state right and it's anoverdoing of that.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
But what I also think when I because I'm guilty of it
we all are you know wantingyour someone you care deeply
about.
I don't want to see my lovedones in pain.
Yes, so when I see them in pain, I do, I make comments, hoping
that they get through thatpainful period onto the next
(07:04):
thing.
So consoling them through it,right.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So I wonder, because some of the words that I heard
you say were I wanted them.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I don't want them to feel I and.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I don't want to see my.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
you know, it's me, me , me, You're right.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yes, and so we're hoping that this episode will
get you to start thinking aboutthese things a little more
deeply.
If you remember I think it waslast week, maybe it was the week
before our episode it was aboutfriendships and Leslie shared
(07:49):
with you a conversation that wehad where I was not considering
the timing Right, and that is apart of how you can manage.
This toxic positivity thing isfor you to think about timing.
It may be an appropriate thingto say, but when?
(08:11):
When is the right time to sayit Is the time to say it.
When you just heard from afriend that you know their
parent is ill or that they justlost the job, is that the first
thing you say to them?
Probably, you know.
It's just that.
I just want you to be sensitiveto these things and to think a
(08:35):
little more deeply, because youknow, leslie and I are deep
thinkers over here.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
We don't overthink a little more deeply than others
listen one of us who isinfluencing the other.
You got to catch me on a goodday for me to get really deep.
I love being superficial.
You know how our currentpresident said I love the
uneducated.
You know, I love being asuperficial thinker.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, I wanted to do a couple of things right.
I want you to think about thefact that.
Think about a situation, les,that you might have been in,
where you did exactly what youjust described you wanted to
console, and the way youconsoled was to put a positive
(09:24):
spin on it.
Can you think of any situationlike that?
Actually, you don't have to godeep.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I'm kind of convicted in one respect, and either you
were in the car or I wasspeaking to.
You were in the car.
You were in the car when thishappened and I love the fact
that you make complicated thingsso crystal clear to me.
Okay, and I think I'm open toit because I was telling you
(09:53):
about a friend who was somewhatestranged from someone close to
them, right, and he describeshow I think they may have had an
(10:17):
postures or attempts toreconcile, but the other person
really wasn't having it.
So, you know, he kind of walkedaway and said oh well, you know
, whatever it's lost.
I, on the other hand, I said tohim, I said why don't you be
the better guy?
Why don't you be the biggerperson?
(10:40):
That's a great example, and youlet's say that you're a little
deeper than they are, or you'rea little, you know, more in
tuned with your feelings, orwhatever, or why don't you set
yourself up as an example?
Why don't you continue to makeefforts at reconciliation and be
(11:02):
the bigger guy and put itbehind you, keep going back,
keep going back.
You know, and I thought thatthat was such a reasonable thing
to advise.
You know, but you then turnedit around, as you always do.
For goodness sake, why don'tyou just let me sit in it, Just
(11:23):
let me sit in my wisdom?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Just let me live.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Just let me live for God's sakes.
And here you are.
But Les, on the other hand,here you are.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Consider this.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Consider this and I'm like too soon.
I was just patting myself onthe back for the breakthrough.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Isn't that good, ash, isn't that good?
Hi, friend, it's Angella.
I hope you're enjoying theepisode.
Listen.
Did you know that the BlackBoomer Besties from Brooklyn
podcast began when I decidedthat I wanted to do something
bold and joyful in my life?
(12:07):
I help older women create morejoyful living and more
joy-filled money-making in theirnext chapter.
So if you're at what I call thewhat's next phase of life empty
nesting, retiring, perhapsdivorcing and you want some help
(12:30):
, you know that joy is somethingthat you seek.
Allow me to be your coach.
You can book a freeconsultation with me.
You will get a free copy of myebook we're too old for this and
you'll see whether my coachingis just right for you.
I will leave a link below tomake it super easy for you, and
(12:54):
I look forward to speaking withyou.
Oh, I forgot to mention thatI'm only taking on five new
clients each quarter.
That, my dear, is a joyboundary that I've set for
myself and I'm going to beteaching you oh, so many
boundaries that you can createin your life to protect your joy
(13:14):
.
Go ahead and schedule thatconsultation and we'll talk more
about it.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So what you said to me, though, first of all, my
friend, he wasn't having it.
He was like you know, I'm done,I'm done.
But what you also said to meand I was presenting this to you
as I think he was being alittle rigid and unreasonable,
yeah, yeah.
And what you said to me is,like Les, in what you're saying
(13:48):
and suggesting to him, in youreffort, you're discounting his
feelings, you're discounting theamount of emotional distress
that he was put through in thisincident by you, with this
positivity and everything'sgreat and you'll be the bigger
guy and whatever.
You are not validating his hurtor his pain by asking him to so
(14:19):
quickly give it up and abandonit.
And it was so crystal clear withthat that here I am.
You know the ah, put a bright,you know you could be the bigger
guy.
Oh, get over it, it's okay,it's okay.
But you know what he's tellingme.
It's not okay with me, right?
And I wasn't really respectingthat by telling him to abandon
(14:44):
that.
It's almost like when someonehurts you and hurts you, let's
just say, and they say to youget over it.
I said, I'm sorry, get over it.
You know, I'm sorry, get overit.
You know, it's like can we justmove on?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Can we?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
move on.
You know, we see that insociety a lot.
We see it in culture, we see itin racism, we see it in other
things.
You know it's like wait aminute, no, we can't.
If you tell me I must move onand get over it, then you don't
understand the impact in my pain.
(15:19):
And when you said that to me,doggone it I was in such a
lively conversation.
I was so good, but I reallypaused and I understood
completely what you meant.
(15:40):
Yeah, and I no longer pushed forhim to make an effort like that
.
Instead, I turned and turned myposture into.
You know, I understand how thismust be.
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah howthis must be.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, you know the thing isit's like this is not like, uh,
about you know, being perfectand getting it right all the
time.
It's, it's really just anawareness that we're we're
creating here for you, hopefully, um, to read the room a little
bit, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
to kind of um, be more mindful of the how others
may take your words, right,that's what it is, because
remember, and when we're, whenI'll say for speak for myself,
when I'm reading the room, right, unfortunately I'm coming
(16:33):
through leslie lens, yeah it'sme centered and yeah, do that's
what human beings do.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
It's a, it's almost like a protect, a protective
thing.
You know what I mean.
To think that we're the center,but but we know that that we're
not.
And, depending on who we'reworking with, some of this
learning that I got to kind ofmove me to understanding these
ideas a little bit better isthrough my children, right.
(17:01):
In particular, I remember twothings.
I'll just mention one of themwhere they had to remind me that
(17:21):
the way I experienced and kindof got over my divorce from
their dad is very different thantheir experience and how they
got over it, their experienceand how they got over it.
So me kind of getting to thepoint where I've moved on, or
(17:42):
you know, I'm kind of seeinglife without him and so on and
so on, and moving in that wayand speaking in that way and
expecting that they're going tokind of have that same, that's
that transformation, in the sametiming as me.
It was like not good parenting,right there, right To, to, to,
(18:03):
not.
In essence, what I was doing ispulling them along to where I
was instead of allowing them togrieve the loss of the life that
we had.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know what I mean, andyou, know, I went through that
exact same thing with Omarirecently where I had to step
back and I say, not only did Ileave a marriage, but Omari lost
a father figure to him.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Right, you know a significant person in his life,
exactly you know, and it didn'teven occur to me.
You know a significant personin his life, exactly, you know,
and it didn't even occur to me,you know to consider how he was
experiencing my loss.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Pain, grief you know Right, yeah, right yeah, and I
love the fact that he was therefor me and he never said you
know, mom, I'm hurting too.
You know that's really not whohe is, but I had to come to that
realization and I apologized tohim.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Ooh Les, I love that.
Well, I couldn't know how tosay I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
every decade or so, all right, what year is this?
What year is this?
All right, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I'm good You've already told on yourself that
you don't apologize with ease.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
No, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You've already told on yourself.
So, I wanted to kind of saythat some of what the toxic
positivity does is it createsshame, right, because you're
telling the other person thatthere's something wrong with
them.
Their emotions don't count.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
It causes guilt.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well, what's wrong with me if I can't get over it?
Right, Something must be wrongwith me if I can't get over it
Right.
Something must be wrong with meand, as I said before, it's
those words that you offer withgood intent.
They, a lot of times, are tohelp you, not to help the other
(20:10):
person because you're ready tomove on you figure like I'm a
drop this positive bomb on themand it's ready to move on.
You figure like I'm going todrop this positive bomb on them
and it's going to take away, andthen I, and then I don't have
to be there for them, then Idon't have to console them,
because but then I get to checkit off my list.
That's the better thing.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I know I can speak for myself and that's not my
motivation.
What it is is I don't wantloved ones suffering and in pain
.
Yeah, yeah you know, so if youdo this, this, this, yeah,
things will get better.
Why?
Don't you get over it so thatyou can feel joyful again.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Right, but I'm going to tilt that a little bit
because we're not far off.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Right, one time was a little sinister.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
You're saying that you want.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, wow.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
You're saying that you want to help them and so on.
Consider that it is a sell foryou.
Listen.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
No, I understand.
You're right about that.
Listen to this.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
We know that these positive emotions feel good,
right.
We also know that negativeemotions are also a part of life
and they are also helpful.
We were given feelings of fearso we could run away from a bear
that's chasing us.
(21:52):
Our body, our physiologyresponds to fear, right.
Negative emotions are for ourgood, and to like not or to want
us to move out of it tooquickly, to want people to move
out of those feelings tooquickly, is where we run into
trouble, because what we'recommunicating really is that
(22:14):
when you feel that way, there'ssomething wrong with you.
Yes, that is what I mean, andthat creates a sense of well,
why can't I get over this?
I should be over this already.
You know what I mean.
Something's wrong with me.
This person took that time.
They go into hiding.
I don't want people to see mesad.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
So I'm going to go over there and be sad by myself
when what they?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
really want is friendship and community.
You know what I'm saying.
So I don't mean that theintention is bad.
Not at all.
I don't mean that the intentionis bad.
I mean that the effect on theother person.
You should consider that thatcould be.
And here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to give you all somealternatives, okay.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, but before you do that, what I just want to say
is that this is something thatyou know that I've struggled
with and this is something thatyou've tried to help me get
through.
You know, I am this very blackand white.
I want to.
If something negative or badhappens and as life, you know,
(23:23):
does I want to let me hurry upthrough it so I can get to the
other end.
I know that things happen for areason.
I do know that I always learnfrom adverse circumstances that
I've been.
I know that.
I also know what it feels liketo look at something in the rear
(23:47):
view mirror and have that painand angst behind you.
But you even recentlyencouraged me.
You know it's like, but youeven recently encouraged me.
You know it's like don't try torush through.
You got to what.
What is the words that you say?
You got to feel the feels.
You got to feels the feels, andI don't like that.
(24:08):
Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
So I wouldn't mind being a little numb through and
then it's like ta-da here I am.
Life is good again.
I'm serious about that.
I know you are.
You know I struggle with that.
(24:40):
Don't sit in.
And I'm going to quote whatPastor Desiree, elder of FCBC,
said.
This isn't a term that shecoined, but she used it in her
sermon.
We'll put a link to it.
The messy middle right, the.
You need to sit sometimesinstead of rushing, because
you're rushing and you'remissing the lesson of the messy
(25:02):
middle.
You don't like the mess, I getthat.
The mess isn't something thatyou like the mess is something
that you respect and allow it todo its work.
And allow it to do its workRight.
And so the allowing people tofeel these feels causes them to
(25:23):
not suppress right, to not hide,to not pretend to not, you know
, want to make you happy.
You can imagine, as a parent,how many times your children are
withholding things or notwanting to upset you.
Or you know you have this, this, this kind of um, it's, it's a
(25:46):
privilege of your position thatyou have as a parent with your
children that you're like I'mjust, you're just you, but to
them you're like, right underGod, you know what I mean.
And so a lot of the times theywill withhold because they don't
(26:06):
want you to be upset or theywant you know, they see that
you're in a happy place and theywant, they don't want to
disturb that and those types ofthings.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So again, that's another thing I've experienced.
It's just awareness.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Exactly, it's just an awareness, so I'm going to um,
so I'm listening From it.
(26:43):
Could?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
be worse to I'm here no matter what?
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
So those from.
They're so cliched and so oftenused that it's hard to even
change the language to conveymore of the message that you're
(27:06):
pointing us to.
Yeah, we have to pay it andthank you for this.
This is helpful, so go ahead,you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yes, and this is the thing.
These are the nuances, right.
When we talk about joy, thesenuances matter Every time, like
Leslie just said, you feel, oh,it's just that thing, right.
You see something posted onFacebook and someone is going
through a rough time and youimmediately want to say
something positive.
Just give it a minute.
(27:36):
Just think about what differentcould you say, for example,
from things happen for a reasonto.
That must be really hard.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Why is it that I've said all the froms, I've never
said the twos?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
What the heck, Leslie ?
Okay, so let me continue.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Sorry, go ahead.
I know this is serious.
I cannot.
I'm just feeling convicted.
We all are Les.
Go ahead.
I know this is serious, Icannot.
Before I get out, I'm justfeeling convicted.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's we all are.
Les, listen, listen this againawareness is the start of every
change right.
From failure isn't an option toyour feelings are valid.
I don't know if you can hearwe're getting a thunderstorm
here yeah.
(28:37):
From happiness is a choice.
I've seen that hashtagHappiness is a choice.
To the middle is messy.
It's little shifts.
It's these little shifts and Ithink, like the key thing is to
(29:01):
just hold a second, uncenteryourself.
And I'm not saying you do thison purpose, I'm saying that if
you, if you consider that itwill help you, you Okay, right,
okay, uncenter yourself and sayhow can I be there for this
(29:23):
person and not kind of layerthis way too soon positivity on
them?
How can you give them a momentto sit in what they're feeling?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So yeah, or not even positivity.
I remember.
See, now I can't even tellsomeone who's suffered you know
will announce a death or whathave you.
Yeah, I can't say I'm sorry foryour loss anymore because you
we had that conversation aboutthat and it's like, well, I am
(29:56):
sorry if I feel bad, that theyand you're like there, you go
again.
This is not about them.
You are expressing your sorrow,right, yes, when they need
something that would fulfill andfortify them, they don't want
to know about my sorrow.
(30:18):
At that time they got their own.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
They don't want to know what you feel sorry about.
Yes, it's.
How can you help?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
them.
So you know what I say.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Instead, if there's anything, I can do for you,
please let me know.
I'm just saying, you see, thisis.
Maybe I'll send her this youjust put a sad, a sad emoji my
mom would say you take my joke,you take my joke.
(30:50):
This is, this is, this is not.
It's not a leslie.
You can get me to laugh throughanything.
That's not a Leslie you can getme to laugh through anything.
That's all I have to say youcan get me to laugh through
anything I know.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
And this is more serious than I'm making- it.
It's just that I'm laughingbecause there's a little level
of discomfort in me.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yes, of course, of course, and you know this, this
idea.
I'm glad you brought up the oneabout how we respond to
people's sorrow, online,typically, or in person.
Yeah, you know my condolences.
There's nothing wrong withsaying I'm sorry for your loss,
(31:27):
yeah, might it be a little moremeaningful because you're sorry
for the loss, and then you kindof move on right, think about
what you might say to God, whatyou might say to God on their
behalf, and say that instead,like you wouldn't say to God, oh
(31:54):
, I'm sorry for their loss, youwould say God, please bless them
, help them, encourage themthrough their time of trouble.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Right, that Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Because those are true things that we do feel,
absolutely, absolutely.
We are just not using the wordsor tapping into the real
emotion behind those absolutelyI'm sorry that's helpful.
You know what listen.
You're a keeper, you're gonnado, it's not working doggone
(32:28):
keeper I told you you were offprobation for a reason I am, I'm
, I'm so locked in now, yeah,but that's real, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
It is, you're welcome and, again, it's a process.
We're hoping that by bringingthis to your attention, you can
make these small shifts thatmake all the difference.
And there you make these shiftsfor a period of time and it
becomes your new normal.
These shifts for a period oftime and it becomes your new
(32:59):
normal.
I don't say, I don't say youknow, I'm sorry, I don't use
that language anymore, I don'tdo it anymore.
I used to do it all the time.
I don't do it anymore becauseit became a habit.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, it became a habit and I think it's so
habitual that people actuallywill probably hear it like that.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
So it just becomes part of the noise when it's not.
That's not your intent, that'snot where your heart is Exactly
and that's not what you want toconvey.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That's a great point Exactly.
Can I just mention something?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
about this messy middle part.
I know and you know people whoknow me and my personality I'm
not only am I black and white,but I am, I guess, impatient.
In many ways I'm very resultsoriented yes, results oriented.
(33:55):
So what makes me uncomfortableon the journey is that I want to
get there and I want to thenlive there.
So I want to move from here tohere and forget all that fluff
in the middle, because I'maction oriented and I want to
(34:16):
see results quickly.
I mean, that could be why I'man anesthesiologist, we're in
the OR and I want to see aneffect of any medication I give
right now.
I'm not an internist.
I don't have time for thepatient to come back in 12 weeks
and tell me how it went.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Right, you know, you're aligned.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's a matter of yeah , there is a lot of avoidance in
there, you know, avoiding thestress or the distress of the,
you know, the journey, thejourney, you know.
But it also is that quitenaturally so I want to see the
(34:58):
result of my efforts as quicklyas possible.
Sure, and I guess it might looklike impatience in some way or
avoidance of that pain of thetravails in the journey or
whatever it could be.
Yeah, but again, I do recognizethat there is benefit and so
(35:23):
much good education from lookingback yep, yep, it is, it is
You're missing.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
You're missing some things.
And it doesn't mean, les, thatsomeone who's wired like you
that this requires a big changein you.
This isn't about these wide.
I used to be someone who wasblack and white and now, nope,
(36:05):
now everything is gray for meand it's no.
And don't expect that ofyourself.
Don't expect that of yourselfbecause you, being that way, is
also, um, a really wonderfulthing.
You're a wonderfulanesthesiologist.
You, you know what I mean.
You, you are results oriented.
(36:25):
You, you do um, uh, you plan A,b, c, d, e, f G.
Plan a, b, c, d, e, f g beforeyou go into the operating room.
Yeah right, um.
So these, these ways of being,is not to um, you know, kind of
um, um, oh, I want to changethis way about me.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
It's just about awareness, it's just about
awareness and making theselittle things.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
You know.
There used to be this show Iused to watch where oh boy.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Is it British?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
No, okay, I'm not going to go into it deeply.
But you know you have thesepeople in your life who someone
will say, oh my God, that'samazing.
And then you have other peoplelike, yes, all right.
And you know those two are thesame because usually that other
person will say nothing.
And when they say, yeah, it'sall right.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That means it's big for them.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
So when you, the way that you're wired when you do
these things, people will noticebecause it's big with them.
They're used to you showing upthis other way and then they
know that you took the time tomake this little change on their
behalf.
So it's not about trying tolike typically when I, when I,
you know, bring these things,it's not in any way these, um,
(37:50):
you know, changing oneself.
Fundamentally, it's just anawareness, so you can tweak,
just an awareness, so you cantweak.
So we can, so we can tweak.
We all listen.
I'm a, I'm a tweet, I willtweak.
I'm a tweaker.
You're a tweaker, I'm a tweaker, I'm a tweaker.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned that about
the excited and some people andwhatever, because Rick is like
that, like, um, if this is hisexcited face, right, or this is,
let's just say this is hisnormal face and then like, if
something really great happens,this is his excited face and I'm
(38:35):
like, isn't this wonderful?
And you know me, isn't thisgreat?
Wait, I got something great foryou.
Listen, check this out.
And he's like, yeah, it's great, you know it's like.
I'm like, oh, that's yourexcited face that's exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Anyway, guys, thanks forlistening.
We hope this was helpful, andum just creates a little shift.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
We just need little shifts to bring more joy in just
little shifts and and I'm sorryfor making so many jokes and
stuff I think this was my, uh,my nervousness talking and, and
you know, it's like how?
I know she's talking about me,sounds like somebody I know, um,
but this is not something thatyou, a conversation that you and
(39:32):
I.
We have these conversations allthe time.
You know, it's like you'retelling me les stop trying to
escape where you are, sit in it,you know?
And um, yeah, are you safe overthere with the thunder and all
that?
I know there's been crazy stuffgoing on you okay yeah, um the.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I don't know if this is still the remnant of the
storm that hit um texas, chantalyeah it was in our neighboring
um I heard our neighboring ourneighboring county um yesterday
and there there were a couple ofdeaths, I think.
But I think I'm staying insideand I checked to make sure that
(40:19):
my windows were up.
My car windows were up and myscreen, my sunroof, so it should
be all good, alright, guys.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, thank you for listening.
This has been another episodeof Black Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn, brooklyn.
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