April 15, 2025 • 40 mins
Leslie shares a recent experience of being the only Black person at two separate events—a Staten Island sports bar and a New Jersey fundraiser with over 300 attendees. This prompts a revealing conversation about racial segregation in America and the imbalance of cultural immersion between white and Black Americans.
• Black Americans constantly "swim in white waters" while white Americans rarely need to navigate Black spaces
• The myth of equivalence in self-segregation ignores power dynamics and demographic realities
• White people with only one Black friend often make that person the spokesperson for all Black people
• Discomfort in conversations about race should be embraced rather than avoided as it's where growth happens
• Black professionals often face different expectations and must "over-perform" to receive equal respect
• Discomfort in conversations about race should be embraced rather than avoided as it's where growth happens
https://onbeing.org/programs/robin-diangelo-and-resmaa-menakem-towards-a-framework-for-repair/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey Ant.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey Les, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
It's going, it's going.
Actually, it's not a complaint.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I am rejoicing in the absence of a toothache,
toothache.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I went to the dentist today and I told her that you
shared that with me and she'slike yes.
Indeed yes, indeed.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yes, indeed hey everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We are back for another episode of Black Boomer
Besties from Brooklyn.
I'm Angella and that's Leslie,my best friend of almost 50
years.
You know who we are.
We are two free-thinking60-something-year-old Black
women and we go deep inconversations and we like to
share joy, we like to share newperspectives, and so and these
(00:52):
conversations come out of juststuff that Les and I talk about
on the regular right, like inthe car driving to work, Les,
it's that kind of thing.
So here's what happened theother day.
The other day, leslie went totwo events.
I think they were either on thesame weekend or yeah, they were
(01:12):
on the same weekend.
Same weekend Saturday andSunday, and she noticed that she
was one of, or the only blackperson in the room of hundreds
of people, and so we startedtalking about that of being the
(01:33):
only in these rooms being inpredominantly white spaces, and
so she had some opinions, I hadsome opinions and we're like no,
stop talking about it, we'regoing to record.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So we're going to bring it to you.
Fresh.
We're bringing it to you.
Fresh is in a band, a popularband that plays all around the
city and other places.
So I had the opportunity to golisten to his band in Staten
Island.
I live in New Jersey, so I wentto the.
(02:18):
It was.
It turned out it was a sportsbar with a stage and what have
you packed place.
So I got there in the eveningand what was a little odd was
that when I walked in, someoneit's a sports bar, right and
(02:39):
someone said can I help you?
And I said no, you know, I'mmeeting a bunch of friends here.
And he said so, do you see them?
And I looked around and then Isaw them and I sat down.
So as the evening went on, Ikind of looked around and I
would say there were a couplehundred people in the bar.
You know, some at the bar, somesitting at tables listening to
(03:04):
the band and drinking andwhatever.
And I said you know what?
I am the only melanated personin this building.
I said it was a revelation.
I said you know, I'm the onlyblack person in this place.
(03:25):
Now, I live in the Northeast,I'm not in Iowa or someplace
where there are fewerpopulations
or percentages of black folks.
So I thought, here I am in NewYork City on a Saturday night in
a bar and the only person Okay,tuck that away.
(03:47):
I had a great time, the bandwas great and it was lovely
getting together with my friends, and all of that Okay.
The next day I went to afundraiser for a close friend's
social service organization.
(04:08):
This was in New Jersey and itwas very well attended.
There were well over 300 people, probably about, I'd say, 330
people, with headliner,comedians and whatever.
It was a great event.
I looked around and again, whenI thought I was the only Black
(04:34):
person in the entire place, Iactually saw one other, another
(05:13):
African-American woman.
So there were two of us out of300 and plus people.
And it got me to thinking.
I said, ange, you know, I don'toften think of it like that,
but we are a very segregatedcountry.
And I said I wonder if havemany friends who are white and
(05:35):
people not just workacquaintances, because that's
usually where people find knowpeople of the other race.
But I have very close friends,people that I love, actually,
who are white and I said Iwonder if I'm their only black
friend.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
You know, and she also said well, it's really the
same thing on both sides.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And I said oh, that is what I said.
I said you know, but if youthink about it, in our spaces
also, they're usually only blackpeople and only white, so it's
the same on both sides.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, people, and only white.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So it's the same on both sides.
Yeah, and I and I heard the carscreech.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You're like les.
One of the reasons why I hitthe brakes on that is because we
often say things like that andthen we keep going and and we
don't investigate is that reallytrue?
If it's true, why is it true?
(06:54):
Are the why's the same right?
We just kind of are okay withsaying that, moving on thinking
about a few examples, move on,and those are the things that I
like to dig at.
Those are the things that I liketo dig at those are the things
that I like to you know, it'slike really, because those are
the things and ways of thinkingthat happen in your life, that
(07:15):
that if you, that you don'tspend time thinking about, it's
just like, oh, that's the way itis.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And it's like is it really?
Is that a false equivalence?
Does it really?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
have to right and why .
Why is it so?
And I so.
So it was that, because it wasone of those things.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I had to have this conversation that I hadn't
anticipated, but then I stopped.
I said you know what this seemslike a podcast episode, so
let's stop talking about it it's.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It's funny because it just hit on so many things I
thought about when I was at Penn.
Um, that year I was this is theUniversity of Pennsylvania.
It was, um, uh, the year that Ienrolled, that was 1980.
(08:02):
Of the, I think, 8 000 peoplein the undergraduate class that
year, there were 400 blackpeople and I remembered so
that's five percent.
That's 5%.
(08:25):
Yeah, a small number and it's ahuge, huge university.
And I remember going to anon-campus event I don't remember
what was going on or whateverand I heard someone who was
white talk about the fact thatblack, the black students
(08:48):
self-segregate in the lunchroom,like we only sit with other
black people in the lunchroom,and I thought it was really odd
because Even back then, at 18years old, even back then you
did what you did with me.
I've always been that way and Ithought it was odd, because you
(09:14):
know something like that and onthe surface that may seem true,
but when you think about it, why?
If this is a kind of anobservable fact, then why is it
so there were so few of us?
Right, one thing is that therewere so few of us For us to find
(09:35):
some sense of normalcy andbelonging and, you know, some
commonality in this hugeuniversity.
Was that is that?
Is that wrong is?
Should that be?
Look, and and the person whosaid this saw this as a negative
by the way, let me just saythat, right, it was a critical
(09:57):
thing, it was yes it was acritical comment right um um.
Who was she eating?
Lunch with I I, I don't know,because this was not even this
wasn't.
Yeah, this wasn't at the lunch.
This was some conversation yeahit was the group setting and
someone stood up and said thisright, okay, so that was one
(10:18):
thing, right.
I mean, you know, in this, inthis large university, undergrad
, you have so few people.
I know, in my school, I went tothe engineering school there
were five black engineeringstudents in our year, right, and
we were not in the same.
I did mechanical, you know,there was civil and whatever,
(10:41):
biomedical, and all of that.
Anyway, there were five of us.
So the one, all of that, anyway, there were five of us.
So, so the one thing is that.
Another thing is that it's soeasy to see, like you wouldn't
be able to look in a room andsay, oh, why are all those
people from Iowa sittingtogether?
You know, because they happento be white and they were their
self segregating, because it'sonly people.
(11:01):
Yeah, yeah so so being being uma something that is observable,
being a color or whatever, orgender that is observable, you
can say something like that andnever have to self-reflect,
you'd never get to self-reflect.
You could say look at whatthey're doing right.
And the other thing that Ithought of is kind of like what
(11:28):
you said who were they sittingwith, and was it our
responsibility to go and findthem?
Was it our responsibility tokind of, hey, we should be
sitting together here.
Could it just be a group offriends?
And did you scrutinize anyother groups there to say, oh,
(11:51):
how come they're only sittingwith that?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
it was a group of friends christians sitting
together.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It was a group of friends sitting together right
and so it became this thing,that um, and as I remember it
was kind of this thing uh,around, you know um, um ways of
creating community at, on campusand so on.
It was like a dig and so thatkind of fired in my brain
because I remember that as beingso like because this is me
(12:19):
coming from Brooklyn, but notonly coming from Brooklyn,
brooklyn being very, verydiverse, coming from a high
school, brooklyn tech, that wasvery diverse and I never really
saw it as, oh, look at you guysdoing this, that is weird.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So anyway, I and right in our days in Brooklyn
Tech, we were eating lunch witheverybody.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Eating lunch with everybody.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know it was everybody in our, Whether you
were in the football team or onthe track team or on the swim
team Okay Group or in AP Calc itwas.
Yes, it's, it's true.
The science head said over herethe people who you know used to
sit in the center.
Yeah, yeah, it was not, wowyeah.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So I just really wanted to kind of noodle at that
a little bit, this idea aboutwhether there is equivalence
even if you can say, yeah, youare the only, you only have one
white friend that, um, inamerica we are a minority, right
(13:35):
, um, we are global majority, um, but in america we are a
minority group, and so we livein, and just think of it, in
circles.
There's a big circle, yeah, ofwhite.
There's a smaller circle ofblack people, african,
descendedcended people.
We swim in, we swim in.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
We swim in the white water, exactly.
And how can we not be touchedby the water that we swim in?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
We just are, and they don't have to come into our
world, right, but we are alwaysin their world.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah, we're always in their world.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
We're always in their world.
There are very few places thatwe can go, because it's on TV,
it's the movie choices that wehave, it's the you know anytime.
It's like three black movies.
Oh, everything is equal, really.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Why?
Why the office is so blackRight black people have money.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Look at these movie stars.
Okay, there are 10 of them.
It's like what?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
yeah, yeah but that reminds me that reminds me of
the conversation that I broughtup.
Also, you know, as a result ofthis I said now, I think that if
more people, if more whitepeople had intimacies with black
(15:06):
people, their black friends,whole new idea about who we are
yeah what we stand for and notjust the oh, but you're one of
the good ones right, but thatidea I had a colleague, um, who
said to me um, he and I feltfree enough to speak about
(15:30):
issues of of race and andculture and religion and things
like that, and I said somethingabout being a black woman, in
addition to being a black womanphysician in addition to being a
black woman, physician,anesthesiologist, et cetera.
And he said oh, but I don't seeyou as black.
Oh, I don't see you as black,and I'm like really so then you
(15:56):
don't see me, because how couldyou say that you not in his case
, but in other cases with myfriends?
How could you say you love meif you and I think in general,
when others stand tocharacterize people that they
(16:22):
don't really know?
That's why so many get it wrong.
That's right, exactly that'swhy so many get it wrong.
Because if this, person does notsee me as a black woman
physician, then he has no ideawhat it took for me to become
(16:43):
and who I had to become, tobecome a black woman physician,
right, right, and then the role,perhaps, that I live in, my
household, in my family, in mycommunity, and how that might
differ from his role in hiscommunity.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Right and all the things.
Yeah, all the things.
It's so interesting because wewere talking about the fact that
we are likely the only Blackfriend, that some of our white
friends have Right, and a longtime ago we had a conversation
(17:28):
about the idea of a single story, right.
And so you know you see a groupof people through a single lens
, right, Whatever you see peoplewho live in the country or in
Iowa, or whatever you see peoplethrough this single lens.
And so whenever you only haveone, you tend to see just that
(17:56):
that person becomes thedefinition of that group of
people right and that person'sopinions become the whole
group's opinions, and then tooon that one person.
It's a lot of pressure yeah,it's a lot of pressure and guess
what they get things wrong.
(18:16):
I let me see if I want to talkabout this I do talk about this.
I haven't heard the story I, Ium have a friend, um, who has a
friend who is white and they hadan experience at um their
adopted daughter, who is black,to get their hair braided Right
(18:42):
and they did not have a goodexperience.
It was painful, the processitself was painful, there was
tears and my friend, I think,misinterpreted what happened,
right um, she misinterpreted,she, she, she interpreted it and
(19:04):
told her white friend it mighthave been because the, the
child's mother, was white andthey had some animosity towards
the child because the child iswhite right I mean the child is
black child because the child iswhite.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Right, I mean the child is black, and then the
parent is white.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
My point of view, this other black person was who
is used to getting their hairdone on a regular by people, who
is in the hair industry.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
But we grew up with getting our hair done being very
painful.
I remember having to sleep inthose doggone pink rollers.
Exactly and every morning Iwoke up with my head indented
and headaches Pink rollers, andthen we all have the experience
of the hot combs and the burnsand the this and getting your
(19:53):
hair braided and it's too tightand you're like People telling
you your hair is too hard andthat's why they have to pull so
hard.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
People telling you it's hitting you with a comb
because you move when they'retrying to get a straight part
Hair in black culture hair ispain Hair is a pain Getting your
hair done.
The culture of hair has a paingetting your hair done the
culture of hair yeah, has a painelement and so I might have
explained something verydifferently to this white friend
(20:21):
.
if she had me as her friend also, and she has this perspective
now, I would think which isunfortunate, right, Because she
might have left with thisperspective that this is what
happens and this is why and forme, because hair culture is such
(20:44):
a part of being a Black woman,I always wonder that's why it
came to me and this happened acouple years ago, that's why it
came to me right now is I alwayswonder to what extent that
black child has been negativelyaffected because this kind of
single or this person, yourblack person to go to your black
person to go to.
(21:04):
The one might have given youthat impression and of course
she knows she speaks.
She speaks of, she speaks ofthe black experience.
That that might've been a verykind of detrimental thing in
that, in that experience, so orshe could have been correct in
her assessment of thatparticular time If you have no
(21:26):
other things to measure it byExactly.
If you don't know anybody, ifyou just have that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
One black friend didn't Charlie.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Brown have that one black friend.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Didn't charlie brown have that one black friend?
Um, but when?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
you only have the one at least he wasn't the dirty
one or else, or or stymie wasn'tstymie the the black leslie,
how old are you?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
oh my gosh wasn't daffy duck, black leslie no.
So what I'm saying is you can'thelp, no, I can't help myself,
no.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So what I'm saying is you can't help yourself.
No, I can't help myself.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I can't, but what I'm saying is it comes back to what
that episode and what we talkabout in terms of diversifying
your community and yourexperiences.
And I know that diversity is abad word these days because some
crazy people made it a bad word, but we only stand to benefit
(22:25):
when we have the ability to getother perspectives and not just
our own narrow focus Right.
And I just remember when I wasat the function with the large,
with a large number of people,the fundraiser, a lady was
behind me and she says, oh, howare you affiliated here?
(22:51):
And I said, oh, I'm goodfriends with my good friend and
colleague such and such.
He's on the board here.
And she's like, oh, okay, andwhat do you do?
Clean up the place.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And I said oh no, I don't do anything.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I'm just a guest here and she says no, no't do
anything.
I'm just a guest here and shesays no, no.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
What do you do?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
for work.
And I said why do you ask?
And she says oh, because youmentioned that he was your
colleague.
And I said oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
We're both physicians and you know whatever and you
could have been whatever, youcould have been in the mailroom
or you could have been, I don'tknow.
You know that stuff makes mereally like not.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Well, I was going to say I could have been in the
mailroom, but not at that pricepoint of the ticket.
Those weren't mail, it wasn't aroom full of mailroom employees
.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
They wouldn't have spent their money that way, but
anyway.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, it just makes me think.
And I live in.
I started to say we, but I livein the Northeast, I'm in New
Jersey, I'm in New York, I grewup in New York and whatever.
We are such a segregatedpopulation, self-segregating, a
segregated populationSelf-segregating.
Most of our churches, sundaymorning, they've always said you
(24:23):
know, that's the mostsegregated time of day Sunday
mornings when people go to theirchurch and people go to theirs
Although I'm a member of achurch that's very diverse.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
You know, and I was, but no more.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't know.
I think that people it's theirloss.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
It's their loss.
I think it is, and I thinkthat-.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
And it can become ours, but I think it's their
loss, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Okay, so I have a podcast episode that I've had in
a you know, in my browser on myphone.
Don't judge me, but I have,like I don't know, maybe 180
something windows in my phone.
(25:20):
Do not judge me.
And this podcast episode it'san unbeing um podcast episode.
It's probably like in the likein the 10th position on my phone
and I keep it because I'veshared it with many people.
I've shared it with um, one ofmy white friends actually, and
um, I sometimes we, we've been alittle, a lot distant, um, uh,
(25:45):
just, I usually hear from herand I don't, and I've noticed
some things like I've reachedout a few times and I really do
need to see if she's okay, butanyway it's about that episode.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Lose my number, but I do.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
But I do.
I do want to mention it herebecause I sent it to you,
because when you told me thatthis happened, I was like Les,
you got to listen to this andsee how you feel about this
episode.
It's on being with ChrisSittipit you may be familiar
with that one and the episode itwent.
(26:23):
The original air date was July9th of 2020.
I've had it for a while and itwas the name of it is Towards a
Framework for Repair, and it was.
The two guests were RobinD'Angelo and Risma Manikim and
(27:10):
they basically talk about waysthat what is in America around
race's.
The one that coined the, theterm white fragility.
It was her book of that namethat that idea of um and this is
this is me putting my myunderstanding of it is the idea
that the how this issue makeswhite people feel should, the
(27:35):
fact that white people areuncomfortable having these types
of conversations and andtalking about race without us
being in it saying, oh, this iswhat race is.
I'm like you.
Y'all created this.
You don't need us to figure itout and you don't need us to
always kind of put ourselves ina position of deep, deep, deep,
(27:57):
deep, deep vulnerability, deepharm, deep, deep fear and all of
that by coming to us to say oh,tell us what we're doing wrong.
You know, and so they had areally, really interesting
(28:18):
conversation and the part that Ireally wanted Leslie to listen
to.
the whole episode is reallyfascinating, but one of the
things that Resmaa Mannequintalked about and I really have
tried to do it since I learnedabout this how we have to, as
(28:40):
Black people, get comfortablewith leaving our black friends,
loved ones, our white friendsand loved ones in the place of
discomfort, before kind ofrunning and saying oh, I didn't.
Or avoiding conversationsbecause we don't want them to
feel bad it is that feeling bad.
It is that discomfort thatchange happens in that place and
(29:03):
if we're so quick to want tokind of pacify, you know, I'm
wondering if that's kind of whatwas showing up for my friend
who's like oh, don't feel, youknow, it's not you, it's them,
or I'm not going to tell youthis.
You know, a friend gave me abook once and it was a book
about a young black man being umkilled by police and the fall
(29:28):
out from that and you know it,it became a movie and I avoided
the movie on purpose becausethat could be my sons.
You know, I, I, there arecertain things for for some
people it's entertainment, forother people, like me, as a
mother of black sons.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's like I don't want to see that on the screen?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I don't.
And so she gave me this book,as you know, as a way of
acknowledging that I'm listening.
You know, this is a story thatreally I took the time to listen
to this thing, but for me I hadto let her know that, her
giving me that as a hey.
(30:10):
You know, like when your cat ordog brings you a rodent, like,
hey, look what I got.
It's like, look what I broughtyou.
And I did, because we're reallyclose.
I told her that I couldn't evenopen the book.
Wow.
I couldn't even open the bookbecause it created so much angst
(30:33):
and feelings of yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Did she understand that?
Do you believe that?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
your reaction?
I think she probably did, but Ithink also what might have
happened.
And um, um, they talk aboutthis.
Robin d'angelo and um rismatalked about the fact that when
you feel like there's nothingyou can do, I can never get this
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
So then you just shrink and you just shrink
nothing.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I'll do the best I can, or I do nothing, right,
right, and that's how itperpetuates, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
That reminds me of during one of the recent
political campaigns and when Ivoiced from my heart that I was
afraid of this person being putinto high office and my white
friend said, like how ridiculous, what do you have to fear?
(31:30):
And I literally had to go deepand explain and just off the top
of my head I really listed someof those reasons why I was
viscerally afraid afraid in myheart and in my body, and one I
(31:51):
don't think they understood itand maybe they did, but it might
have been so painful for themthat they really either didn't
mention it to me anymore orreally they downplayed it.
And I walked away from that andI've mentioned it a few times
because I still feel it.
How could you love me anddownplay my fears and my?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
feelings.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, you know if you tell me you're afraid of
heights.
Whether or not that's mypersonal fear.
If I love you, I have tounderstand and I'm not going to
expose you to things that makeyou so afraid, or try to protect
(32:40):
you.
I'll try to protect you from it.
You know if I care about you.
Otherwise, let's go to the topof the Empire State Building.
Come on, it's nothing.
Come on.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And walk on the glass .
It's nothing.
You're being silly.
That's not real.
You know it's a level ofsensitivity.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I think that one, the fact that we can't have these
discussions and they turn intowhat people say I don't want to
have an argument or I don't,you're not supposed to talk
about that, you're not supposedto.
That's why we've been talkingabout it, or two separate sides
have been talking about it.
Some people more than othershave been talking about it, but
(33:20):
separately, for hundreds ofyears, yeah, yeah.
And now we're not allowed totalk about it.
Because now it's being erasedfrom websites.
It's being closed from historyFrom research, everything.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
You can't read it.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
The books are being taken away.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Museums are being wiped whitewashed.
Yeah, it's real, guys, it'sreal.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It's real, guys, it's real.
It's that level of discomfortand it is said we don't want
people to feel uncomfortableabout it, and hence no one will
hear it, no one is allowed totalk about it in good company.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yet that discomfort and pain is the greatest agent
of change.
It's the only time that we canreally exercise that muscle.
You know how painful exerciseis the first couple of weeks
when you yeah, you want to stopright, you get sore.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
yeah, yeah, but then after that the muscles get used
to it Right and you kind of likehow you look and you can have
that conversation without thatnauseous feeling in your stomach
, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, and this idea that it is your discomfort is
paramount.
Yeah, someone else's discomfort, someone else's pain, someone
else's loss, someone else's youknow's loss, someone else's you
know um, just um tragedy is notas important as you, being
(34:51):
uncomfortable talking about ituncomfortable because you're the
center of the universe.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
So often my issues are life and death.
Yeah, I mean, I can name names.
I can get stories and this.
And that I mean I grew up wheremy parent had to give me the
talk and I had to give my blacksons and nephews the talk, or
the one you were talking about,um your friend in the hospital?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
yeah right, and what could have happened?
To her if you weren't there andhow they were expecting to, how
they expected her to die.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
That was what they expected, because that's what
happens.
Black people yeah, they getthese ailments and they die.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And we're, we, don't we?
It's not a it's not a big thing, it's not anything that we, we
scramble to to avoid.
It's just what happens.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
And who could understand that experience and
the fear that I had visiting herin the hospital without my
explaining that to them, ifthat's not, their life.
They go to hospitals to gethealed.
Exactly, they go to hospitalsand the doctor takes care of
them and I've noticed it's thesame type of thing when I did my
(36:04):
medical missionary work aroundthe world where hospitals it's
not the same as traditionalhospitals.
Here in the States People wereafraid to go to hospitals
because that's where people wentto die.
You know, and here we are wherethis hospital was mimicking
third world, what we call thirdworld hospitals and mindsets.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
You know people in this particular hospital, I
suppose, is where someone withher pathology went to die, you
know and that wasn't veryunusual well in my world, so
yeah, not on my watch yeah yeah,you know yeah, so, anyway,
(36:50):
interesting isn't it?
Yeah, and, and you know, it'slike, what's the takeaway?
The takeaway that I would say,and then you can go less, is
like, um, be curious about thosethings that we say and we,
those things that we believe areso.
Just because, just because it'sso, it's easy to kind of move
(37:12):
on.
Yeah, that is, and then youmove on.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
It's like is that really?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
so is that really so?
I gotta tell you one quickthing, right like I was in a
meeting when I was in corporateand someone who was black who
was in HR said well, you know,managers hire people who look
like that.
And I'm like, really Blackmanagers, don't?
(37:40):
I mean?
And I say that because blackmanagers have to think, if I
hire this person who looks likeme, they're going to think.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I only hired her because she's black.
And then we get into this wholething in our head about this.
And so they don't, they aremore likely to say they don't,
because they have to show thatthey are more fair and balanced
and whatever it doesn't, it's'slike that's not really what, are
you what?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
and so always kind of those things that just, oh,
this is so because it's so, orthis is so because it's so in
the white world.
You always have to think aboutthat twice thrice because it's
typically not so or the reasonsthat it's so, are very different
and so just kind of groupingthem.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
The same is not really valid so that's my long
takeaway and I'll give you anexample also that I just thought
about in in medicine, you know,because black physicians are
are so few a number, we often,when we encounter, um, white
patients, we may have to overperform or over explain, wow, or
(38:53):
it's almost as though you'reexpected.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yes, to show your credentials and show you know
why you, whatever you know and,of course, many times I've been,
you know, mistaken.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Oh, nurse, oh this can you?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
get the doctor you know that type of thing right
right right, but it's alwaysthere, and and my colleague who
said he doesn't see me as black.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
well then, how could he understand why I'm
interacting with this patient inthe way that I am?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yes, right, right, right.
Or why his patient may see youdifferently or may not give you
the same level of respect asthey give him.
Yeah, or why there's lesstolerance.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
You know, in my world for certain things than in
other people's.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
I mean, we can go on and on.
You know how much time we got,how much time we got, you're the
timekeeper, but anyway no,we're here Just something to
think about.
And I thought I found it veryinteresting.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Did you guys find this interesting?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I hope so Give us some comments.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Let us know.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Let's hear from you.
Let's hear from you.
You're always going to get foodfor thought here at the Black
Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
There you go, brooklyn, all right have a good
night, Bye guys.
Hey Ant.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey Les, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
It's going, it's going.
Actually, it's not a complaint.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I am rejoicing in the absence of a toothache,
toothache.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I went to the dentist today and I told her that you
shared that with me and she'slike yes.
Indeed yes, indeed.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yes, indeed hey everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We are back for another episode of Black Boomer
Besties from Brooklyn.
I'm Angella and that's Leslie,my best friend of almost 50
years.
You know who we are.
We are two free-thinking60-something-year-old Black
women and we go deep inconversations and we like to
share joy, we like to share newperspectives, and so and these
(00:52):
conversations come out of juststuff that Les and I talk about
on the regular right, like inthe car driving to work, Les,
it's that kind of thing.
So here's what happened theother day.
The other day, leslie went totwo events.
I think they were either on thesame weekend or yeah, they were
(01:12):
on the same weekend.
Same weekend Saturday andSunday, and she noticed that she
was one of, or the only blackperson in the room of hundreds
of people, and so we startedtalking about that of being the
(01:33):
only in these rooms being inpredominantly white spaces, and
so she had some opinions, I hadsome opinions and we're like no,
stop talking about it, we'regoing to record.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So we're going to bring it to you.
Fresh.
We're bringing it to you.
Fresh is in a band, a popularband that plays all around the
city and other places.
So I had the opportunity to golisten to his band in Staten
Island.
I live in New Jersey, so I wentto the.
(02:18):
It was.
It turned out it was a sportsbar with a stage and what have
you packed place.
So I got there in the eveningand what was a little odd was
that when I walked in, someoneit's a sports bar, right and
(02:39):
someone said can I help you?
And I said no, you know, I'mmeeting a bunch of friends here.
And he said so, do you see them?
And I looked around and then Isaw them and I sat down.
So as the evening went on, Ikind of looked around and I
would say there were a couplehundred people in the bar.
You know, some at the bar, somesitting at tables listening to
(03:04):
the band and drinking andwhatever.
And I said you know what?
I am the only melanated personin this building.
I said it was a revelation.
I said you know, I'm the onlyblack person in this place.
(03:25):
Now, I live in the Northeast,I'm not in Iowa or someplace
where there are fewerpopulations
or percentages of black folks.
So I thought, here I am in NewYork City on a Saturday night in
a bar and the only person Okay,tuck that away.
(03:47):
I had a great time, the bandwas great and it was lovely
getting together with my friends, and all of that Okay.
The next day I went to afundraiser for a close friend's
social service organization.
(04:08):
This was in New Jersey and itwas very well attended.
There were well over 300 people, probably about, I'd say, 330
people, with headliner,comedians and whatever.
It was a great event.
I looked around and again, whenI thought I was the only Black
(04:34):
person in the entire place, Iactually saw one other, another
(05:13):
African-American woman.
So there were two of us out of300 and plus people.
And it got me to thinking.
I said, ange, you know, I don'toften think of it like that,
but we are a very segregatedcountry.
And I said I wonder if havemany friends who are white and
(05:35):
people not just workacquaintances, because that's
usually where people find knowpeople of the other race.
But I have very close friends,people that I love, actually,
who are white and I said Iwonder if I'm their only black
friend.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
You know, and she also said well, it's really the
same thing on both sides.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And I said oh, that is what I said.
I said you know, but if youthink about it, in our spaces
also, they're usually only blackpeople and only white, so it's
the same on both sides.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, people, and only white.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So it's the same on both sides.
Yeah, and I and I heard the carscreech.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You're like les.
One of the reasons why I hitthe brakes on that is because we
often say things like that andthen we keep going and and we
don't investigate is that reallytrue?
If it's true, why is it true?
(06:54):
Are the why's the same right?
We just kind of are okay withsaying that, moving on thinking
about a few examples, move on,and those are the things that I
like to dig at.
Those are the things that I liketo dig at those are the things
that I like to you know, it'slike really, because those are
the things and ways of thinkingthat happen in your life, that
(07:15):
that if you, that you don'tspend time thinking about, it's
just like, oh, that's the way itis.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And it's like is it really?
Is that a false equivalence?
Does it really?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
have to right and why .
Why is it so?
And I so.
So it was that, because it wasone of those things.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I had to have this conversation that I hadn't
anticipated, but then I stopped.
I said you know what this seemslike a podcast episode, so
let's stop talking about it it's.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It's funny because it just hit on so many things I
thought about when I was at Penn.
Um, that year I was this is theUniversity of Pennsylvania.
It was, um, uh, the year that Ienrolled, that was 1980.
(08:02):
Of the, I think, 8 000 peoplein the undergraduate class that
year, there were 400 blackpeople and I remembered so
that's five percent.
That's 5%.
(08:25):
Yeah, a small number and it's ahuge, huge university.
And I remember going to anon-campus event I don't remember
what was going on or whateverand I heard someone who was
white talk about the fact thatblack, the black students
(08:48):
self-segregate in the lunchroom,like we only sit with other
black people in the lunchroom,and I thought it was really odd
because Even back then, at 18years old, even back then you
did what you did with me.
I've always been that way and Ithought it was odd, because you
(09:14):
know something like that and onthe surface that may seem true,
but when you think about it, why?
If this is a kind of anobservable fact, then why is it
so there were so few of us?
Right, one thing is that therewere so few of us For us to find
(09:35):
some sense of normalcy andbelonging and, you know, some
commonality in this hugeuniversity.
Was that is that?
Is that wrong is?
Should that be?
Look, and and the person whosaid this saw this as a negative
by the way, let me just saythat, right, it was a critical
(09:57):
thing, it was yes it was acritical comment right um um.
Who was she eating?
Lunch with I I, I don't know,because this was not even this
wasn't.
Yeah, this wasn't at the lunch.
This was some conversation yeahit was the group setting and
someone stood up and said thisright, okay, so that was one
(10:18):
thing, right.
I mean, you know, in this, inthis large university, undergrad
, you have so few people.
I know, in my school, I went tothe engineering school there
were five black engineeringstudents in our year, right, and
we were not in the same.
I did mechanical, you know,there was civil and whatever,
(10:41):
biomedical, and all of that.
Anyway, there were five of us.
So the one, all of that, anyway, there were five of us.
So, so the one thing is that.
Another thing is that it's soeasy to see, like you wouldn't
be able to look in a room andsay, oh, why are all those
people from Iowa sittingtogether?
You know, because they happento be white and they were their
self segregating, because it'sonly people.
(11:01):
Yeah, yeah so so being being uma something that is observable,
being a color or whatever, orgender that is observable, you
can say something like that andnever have to self-reflect,
you'd never get to self-reflect.
You could say look at whatthey're doing right.
And the other thing that Ithought of is kind of like what
(11:28):
you said who were they sittingwith, and was it our
responsibility to go and findthem?
Was it our responsibility tokind of, hey, we should be
sitting together here.
Could it just be a group offriends?
And did you scrutinize anyother groups there to say, oh,
(11:51):
how come they're only sittingwith that?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
it was a group of friends christians sitting
together.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It was a group of friends sitting together right
and so it became this thing,that um, and as I remember it
was kind of this thing uh,around, you know um, um ways of
creating community at, on campusand so on.
It was like a dig and so thatkind of fired in my brain
because I remember that as beingso like because this is me
(12:19):
coming from Brooklyn, but notonly coming from Brooklyn,
brooklyn being very, verydiverse, coming from a high
school, brooklyn tech, that wasvery diverse and I never really
saw it as, oh, look at you guysdoing this, that is weird.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So anyway, I and right in our days in Brooklyn
Tech, we were eating lunch witheverybody.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Eating lunch with everybody.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know it was everybody in our, Whether you
were in the football team or onthe track team or on the swim
team Okay Group or in AP Calc itwas.
Yes, it's, it's true.
The science head said over herethe people who you know used to
sit in the center.
Yeah, yeah, it was not, wowyeah.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So I just really wanted to kind of noodle at that
a little bit, this idea aboutwhether there is equivalence
even if you can say, yeah, youare the only, you only have one
white friend that, um, inamerica we are a minority, right
(13:35):
, um, we are global majority, um, but in america we are a
minority group, and so we livein, and just think of it, in
circles.
There's a big circle, yeah, ofwhite.
There's a smaller circle ofblack people, african,
descendedcended people.
We swim in, we swim in.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
We swim in the white water, exactly.
And how can we not be touchedby the water that we swim in?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
We just are, and they don't have to come into our
world, right, but we are alwaysin their world.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah, we're always in their world.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
We're always in their world.
There are very few places thatwe can go, because it's on TV,
it's the movie choices that wehave, it's the you know anytime.
It's like three black movies.
Oh, everything is equal, really.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Why?
Why the office is so blackRight black people have money.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Look at these movie stars.
Okay, there are 10 of them.
It's like what?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
yeah, yeah but that reminds me that reminds me of
the conversation that I broughtup.
Also, you know, as a result ofthis I said now, I think that if
more people, if more whitepeople had intimacies with black
(15:06):
people, their black friends,whole new idea about who we are
yeah what we stand for and notjust the oh, but you're one of
the good ones right, but thatidea I had a colleague, um, who
said to me um, he and I feltfree enough to speak about
(15:30):
issues of of race and andculture and religion and things
like that, and I said somethingabout being a black woman, in
addition to being a black womanphysician in addition to being a
black woman, physician,anesthesiologist, et cetera.
And he said oh, but I don't seeyou as black.
Oh, I don't see you as black,and I'm like really so then you
(15:56):
don't see me, because how couldyou say that you not in his case
, but in other cases with myfriends?
How could you say you love meif you and I think in general,
when others stand tocharacterize people that they
(16:22):
don't really know?
That's why so many get it wrong.
That's right, exactly that'swhy so many get it wrong.
Because if this, person does notsee me as a black woman
physician, then he has no ideawhat it took for me to become
(16:43):
and who I had to become, tobecome a black woman physician,
right, right, and then the role,perhaps, that I live in, my
household, in my family, in mycommunity, and how that might
differ from his role in hiscommunity.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Right and all the things.
Yeah, all the things.
It's so interesting because wewere talking about the fact that
we are likely the only Blackfriend, that some of our white
friends have Right, and a longtime ago we had a conversation
(17:28):
about the idea of a single story, right.
And so you know you see a groupof people through a single lens
, right, Whatever you see peoplewho live in the country or in
Iowa, or whatever you see peoplethrough this single lens.
And so whenever you only haveone, you tend to see just that
(17:56):
that person becomes thedefinition of that group of
people right and that person'sopinions become the whole
group's opinions, and then tooon that one person.
It's a lot of pressure yeah,it's a lot of pressure and guess
what they get things wrong.
(18:16):
I let me see if I want to talkabout this I do talk about this.
I haven't heard the story I, Ium have a friend, um, who has a
friend who is white and they hadan experience at um their
adopted daughter, who is black,to get their hair braided Right
(18:42):
and they did not have a goodexperience.
It was painful, the processitself was painful, there was
tears and my friend, I think,misinterpreted what happened,
right um, she misinterpreted,she, she, she interpreted it and
(19:04):
told her white friend it mighthave been because the, the
child's mother, was white andthey had some animosity towards
the child because the child iswhite right I mean the child is
black child because the child iswhite.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Right, I mean the child is black, and then the
parent is white.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
My point of view, this other black person was who
is used to getting their hairdone on a regular by people, who
is in the hair industry.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
But we grew up with getting our hair done being very
painful.
I remember having to sleep inthose doggone pink rollers.
Exactly and every morning Iwoke up with my head indented
and headaches Pink rollers, andthen we all have the experience
of the hot combs and the burnsand the this and getting your
(19:53):
hair braided and it's too tightand you're like People telling
you your hair is too hard andthat's why they have to pull so
hard.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
People telling you it's hitting you with a comb
because you move when they'retrying to get a straight part
Hair in black culture hair ispain Hair is a pain Getting your
hair done.
The culture of hair has a paingetting your hair done the
culture of hair yeah, has a painelement and so I might have
explained something verydifferently to this white friend
(20:21):
.
if she had me as her friend also, and she has this perspective
now, I would think which isunfortunate, right, Because she
might have left with thisperspective that this is what
happens and this is why and forme, because hair culture is such
(20:44):
a part of being a Black woman,I always wonder that's why it
came to me and this happened acouple years ago, that's why it
came to me right now is I alwayswonder to what extent that
black child has been negativelyaffected because this kind of
single or this person, yourblack person to go to your black
person to go to.
(21:04):
The one might have given youthat impression and of course
she knows she speaks.
She speaks of, she speaks ofthe black experience.
That that might've been a verykind of detrimental thing in
that, in that experience, so orshe could have been correct in
her assessment of thatparticular time If you have no
(21:26):
other things to measure it byExactly.
If you don't know anybody, ifyou just have that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
One black friend didn't Charlie.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Brown have that one black friend.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Didn't charlie brown have that one black friend?
Um, but when?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
you only have the one at least he wasn't the dirty
one or else, or or stymie wasn'tstymie the the black leslie,
how old are you?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
oh my gosh wasn't daffy duck, black leslie no.
So what I'm saying is you can'thelp, no, I can't help myself,
no.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So what I'm saying is you can't help yourself.
No, I can't help myself.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I can't, but what I'm saying is it comes back to what
that episode and what we talkabout in terms of diversifying
your community and yourexperiences.
And I know that diversity is abad word these days because some
crazy people made it a bad word, but we only stand to benefit
(22:25):
when we have the ability to getother perspectives and not just
our own narrow focus Right.
And I just remember when I wasat the function with the large,
with a large number of people,the fundraiser, a lady was
behind me and she says, oh, howare you affiliated here?
(22:51):
And I said, oh, I'm goodfriends with my good friend and
colleague such and such.
He's on the board here.
And she's like, oh, okay, andwhat do you do?
Clean up the place.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And I said oh no, I don't do anything.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I'm just a guest here and she says no, no't do
anything.
I'm just a guest here and shesays no, no.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
What do you do?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
for work.
And I said why do you ask?
And she says oh, because youmentioned that he was your
colleague.
And I said oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
We're both physicians and you know whatever and you
could have been whatever, youcould have been in the mailroom
or you could have been, I don'tknow.
You know that stuff makes mereally like not.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Well, I was going to say I could have been in the
mailroom, but not at that pricepoint of the ticket.
Those weren't mail, it wasn't aroom full of mailroom employees
.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
They wouldn't have spent their money that way, but
anyway.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, it just makes me think.
And I live in.
I started to say we, but I livein the Northeast, I'm in New
Jersey, I'm in New York, I grewup in New York and whatever.
We are such a segregatedpopulation, self-segregating, a
segregated populationSelf-segregating.
Most of our churches, sundaymorning, they've always said you
(24:23):
know, that's the mostsegregated time of day Sunday
mornings when people go to theirchurch and people go to theirs
Although I'm a member of achurch that's very diverse.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
You know, and I was, but no more.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't know.
I think that people it's theirloss.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
It's their loss.
I think it is, and I thinkthat-.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
And it can become ours, but I think it's their
loss, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Okay, so I have a podcast episode that I've had in
a you know, in my browser on myphone.
Don't judge me, but I have,like I don't know, maybe 180
something windows in my phone.
(25:20):
Do not judge me.
And this podcast episode it'san unbeing um podcast episode.
It's probably like in the likein the 10th position on my phone
and I keep it because I'veshared it with many people.
I've shared it with um, one ofmy white friends actually, and
um, I sometimes we, we've been alittle, a lot distant, um, uh,
(25:45):
just, I usually hear from herand I don't, and I've noticed
some things like I've reachedout a few times and I really do
need to see if she's okay, butanyway it's about that episode.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Lose my number, but I do.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
But I do.
I do want to mention it herebecause I sent it to you,
because when you told me thatthis happened, I was like Les,
you got to listen to this andsee how you feel about this
episode.
It's on being with ChrisSittipit you may be familiar
with that one and the episode itwent.
(26:23):
The original air date was July9th of 2020.
I've had it for a while and itwas the name of it is Towards a
Framework for Repair, and it was.
The two guests were RobinD'Angelo and Risma Manikim and
(27:10):
they basically talk about waysthat what is in America around
race's.
The one that coined the, theterm white fragility.
It was her book of that namethat that idea of um and this is
this is me putting my myunderstanding of it is the idea
that the how this issue makeswhite people feel should, the
(27:35):
fact that white people areuncomfortable having these types
of conversations and andtalking about race without us
being in it saying, oh, this iswhat race is.
I'm like you.
Y'all created this.
You don't need us to figure itout and you don't need us to
always kind of put ourselves ina position of deep, deep, deep,
(27:57):
deep, deep vulnerability, deepharm, deep, deep fear and all of
that by coming to us to say oh,tell us what we're doing wrong.
You know, and so they had areally, really interesting
(28:18):
conversation and the part that Ireally wanted Leslie to listen
to.
the whole episode is reallyfascinating, but one of the
things that Resmaa Mannequintalked about and I really have
tried to do it since I learnedabout this how we have to, as
(28:40):
Black people, get comfortablewith leaving our black friends,
loved ones, our white friendsand loved ones in the place of
discomfort, before kind ofrunning and saying oh, I didn't.
Or avoiding conversationsbecause we don't want them to
feel bad it is that feeling bad.
It is that discomfort thatchange happens in that place and
(29:03):
if we're so quick to want tokind of pacify, you know, I'm
wondering if that's kind of whatwas showing up for my friend
who's like oh, don't feel, youknow, it's not you, it's them,
or I'm not going to tell youthis.
You know, a friend gave me abook once and it was a book
about a young black man being umkilled by police and the fall
(29:28):
out from that and you know it,it became a movie and I avoided
the movie on purpose becausethat could be my sons.
You know, I, I, there arecertain things for for some
people it's entertainment, forother people, like me, as a
mother of black sons.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's like I don't want to see that on the screen?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I don't.
And so she gave me this book,as you know, as a way of
acknowledging that I'm listening.
You know, this is a story thatreally I took the time to listen
to this thing, but for me I hadto let her know that, her
giving me that as a hey.
(30:10):
You know, like when your cat ordog brings you a rodent, like,
hey, look what I got.
It's like, look what I broughtyou.
And I did, because we're reallyclose.
I told her that I couldn't evenopen the book.
Wow.
I couldn't even open the bookbecause it created so much angst
(30:33):
and feelings of yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Did she understand that?
Do you believe that?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
your reaction?
I think she probably did, but Ithink also what might have
happened.
And um, um, they talk aboutthis.
Robin d'angelo and um rismatalked about the fact that when
you feel like there's nothingyou can do, I can never get this
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
So then you just shrink and you just shrink
nothing.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I'll do the best I can, or I do nothing, right,
right, and that's how itperpetuates, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
That reminds me of during one of the recent
political campaigns and when Ivoiced from my heart that I was
afraid of this person being putinto high office and my white
friend said, like how ridiculous, what do you have to fear?
(31:30):
And I literally had to go deepand explain and just off the top
of my head I really listed someof those reasons why I was
viscerally afraid afraid in myheart and in my body, and one I
(31:51):
don't think they understood itand maybe they did, but it might
have been so painful for themthat they really either didn't
mention it to me anymore orreally they downplayed it.
And I walked away from that andI've mentioned it a few times
because I still feel it.
How could you love me anddownplay my fears and my?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
feelings.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, you know if you tell me you're afraid of
heights.
Whether or not that's mypersonal fear.
If I love you, I have tounderstand and I'm not going to
expose you to things that makeyou so afraid, or try to protect
(32:40):
you.
I'll try to protect you from it.
You know if I care about you.
Otherwise, let's go to the topof the Empire State Building.
Come on, it's nothing.
Come on.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And walk on the glass .
It's nothing.
You're being silly.
That's not real.
You know it's a level ofsensitivity.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I think that one, the fact that we can't have these
discussions and they turn intowhat people say I don't want to
have an argument or I don't,you're not supposed to talk
about that, you're not supposedto.
That's why we've been talkingabout it, or two separate sides
have been talking about it.
Some people more than othershave been talking about it, but
(33:20):
separately, for hundreds ofyears, yeah, yeah.
And now we're not allowed totalk about it.
Because now it's being erasedfrom websites.
It's being closed from historyFrom research, everything.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
You can't read it.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
The books are being taken away.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Museums are being wiped whitewashed.
Yeah, it's real, guys, it'sreal.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It's real, guys, it's real.
It's that level of discomfortand it is said we don't want
people to feel uncomfortableabout it, and hence no one will
hear it, no one is allowed totalk about it in good company.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yet that discomfort and pain is the greatest agent
of change.
It's the only time that we canreally exercise that muscle.
You know how painful exerciseis the first couple of weeks
when you yeah, you want to stopright, you get sore.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
yeah, yeah, but then after that the muscles get used
to it Right and you kind of likehow you look and you can have
that conversation without thatnauseous feeling in your stomach
, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, and this idea that it is your discomfort is
paramount.
Yeah, someone else's discomfort, someone else's pain, someone
else's loss, someone else's youknow's loss, someone else's you
know um, just um tragedy is notas important as you, being
(34:51):
uncomfortable talking about ituncomfortable because you're the
center of the universe.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
So often my issues are life and death.
Yeah, I mean, I can name names.
I can get stories and this.
And that I mean I grew up wheremy parent had to give me the
talk and I had to give my blacksons and nephews the talk, or
the one you were talking about,um your friend in the hospital?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
yeah right, and what could have happened?
To her if you weren't there andhow they were expecting to, how
they expected her to die.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
That was what they expected, because that's what
happens.
Black people yeah, they getthese ailments and they die.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And we're, we, don't we?
It's not a it's not a big thing, it's not anything that we, we
scramble to to avoid.
It's just what happens.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
And who could understand that experience and
the fear that I had visiting herin the hospital without my
explaining that to them, ifthat's not, their life.
They go to hospitals to gethealed.
Exactly, they go to hospitalsand the doctor takes care of
them and I've noticed it's thesame type of thing when I did my
(36:04):
medical missionary work aroundthe world where hospitals it's
not the same as traditionalhospitals.
Here in the States People wereafraid to go to hospitals
because that's where people wentto die.
You know, and here we are wherethis hospital was mimicking
third world, what we call thirdworld hospitals and mindsets.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
You know people in this particular hospital, I
suppose, is where someone withher pathology went to die, you
know and that wasn't veryunusual well in my world, so
yeah, not on my watch yeah yeah,you know yeah, so, anyway,
(36:50):
interesting isn't it?
Yeah, and, and you know, it'slike, what's the takeaway?
The takeaway that I would say,and then you can go less, is
like, um, be curious about thosethings that we say and we,
those things that we believe areso.
Just because, just because it'sso, it's easy to kind of move
(37:12):
on.
Yeah, that is, and then youmove on.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
It's like is that really?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
so is that really so?
I gotta tell you one quickthing, right like I was in a
meeting when I was in corporateand someone who was black who
was in HR said well, you know,managers hire people who look
like that.
And I'm like, really Blackmanagers, don't?
(37:40):
I mean?
And I say that because blackmanagers have to think, if I
hire this person who looks likeme, they're going to think.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I only hired her because she's black.
And then we get into this wholething in our head about this.
And so they don't, they aremore likely to say they don't,
because they have to show thatthey are more fair and balanced
and whatever it doesn't, it's'slike that's not really what, are
you what?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
and so always kind of those things that just, oh,
this is so because it's so, orthis is so because it's so in
the white world.
You always have to think aboutthat twice thrice because it's
typically not so or the reasonsthat it's so, are very different
and so just kind of groupingthem.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
The same is not really valid so that's my long
takeaway and I'll give you anexample also that I just thought
about in in medicine, you know,because black physicians are
are so few a number, we often,when we encounter, um, white
patients, we may have to overperform or over explain, wow, or
(38:53):
it's almost as though you'reexpected.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yes, to show your credentials and show you know
why you, whatever you know and,of course, many times I've been,
you know, mistaken.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Oh, nurse, oh this can you?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
get the doctor you know that type of thing right
right right, but it's alwaysthere, and and my colleague who
said he doesn't see me as black.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
well then, how could he understand why I'm
interacting with this patient inthe way that I am?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yes, right, right, right.
Or why his patient may see youdifferently or may not give you
the same level of respect asthey give him.
Yeah, or why there's lesstolerance.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
You know, in my world for certain things than in
other people's.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
I mean, we can go on and on.
You know how much time we got,how much time we got, you're the
timekeeper, but anyway no,we're here Just something to
think about.
And I thought I found it veryinteresting.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Did you guys find this interesting?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I hope so Give us some comments.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Let us know.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Let's hear from you.
Let's hear from you.
You're always going to get foodfor thought here at the Black
Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
There you go, brooklyn, all right have a good
night, Bye guys.
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