June 17, 2025 • 48 mins
Inspired by Rachel Martin's "Wild Card" podcast, this week, The Besties tackle questions they've never publicly addressed before, creating moments of both profound insight and lighthearted humor.
The episode unfolds with vulnerability as they explore, out loud, deeply personal remembrances like when they first realized their parents weren't infallible beings, when they first felt deep pride in themselves, and what beliefs they no longer hold.
What makes this exchange special is how they navigate these vulnerable territories—pushing each other toward growth while honoring boundaries, demonstrating the beautiful complexity of deep friendship between two sixty-something Black women who've witnessed each other's evolution through decades of life's challenges.
Their willingness to question long-held beliefs and share these journeys invites listeners to examine their own life perspectives and the relationships that have shaped them
References mentioned:
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510379/wild-card-with-rachel-martin
Here’s a wonderful conversation with Wanda Sykes:
Wanda Sykes on why fear isn't a big deal, coming out when she was ready and her new stand-up special
Get Angie’s eBook:
We’re Too Old for This Shit! The Inquisitive Older Woman’s Guide to Joy http://joystrategy.co/ebook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey Ange, hey Liz, how are you babe?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So many things Good answer.
So many things, so many thingsDitto.
But, I love the fact that we'reback in these United States,
both of us Somewhat united.
These disjointed states.
Let's just say we're back inthe States.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I don't want to be a liar.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
We're back in the States, yes, and I guess we got
to like get ease back into thehubbub of these Americas, that's
right.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
These Americas Because there are other Americas
.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, because we were in Central America.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
We were in Central America, correct.
But, we're back.
We're back in Estados Unidos.
Sí, sí, that's right, we areback.
Yeah, and it's good to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It is good to be back , but I noticed you spoke
Spanish.
You said those two words inSpanish.
However, when we were abroad,when I asked you to order in
Spanish, you're like I'm toohungry, Give me an English menu.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Listen, by that time I had moved into the hangry
state and you were expecting toomuch of me.
Too much of me.
I almost said something.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
But was it going to be in English or Spanish?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It was going to be in not too pleasant English.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Exactly, exactly.
I don't want to know thosewords in Spanish.
Excuse my French.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Excuse, excuse my cousin, excuse my cousin.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So let me start by saying welcome to another
episode of Black Boomer Bestiesfrom Brooklyn.
If you guys know us, you knowthat we're always laughing, I
mean especially today.
You know we just we're justhappy to talk to each other
because we've been talkingthrough WhatsApp.
I came back about two weeksbefore she did so it's like my
(02:05):
pal is not here in the States.
Where is she?
That didn't stop us fromtalking all the time, but you
know, it's a little bit better,Maybe every other day, instead
of three times a day.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Welcome.
I'm Angela and that's Leslie,my best friend of almost 50
years.
That's five zero.
We are two free thinking, 60something year old women who
have decided we have committedto live our lives more boldly
(02:39):
and more joyfully, and we inviteyou to come along with us today
, and we invite you to comealong with us Today we're going
to be asking ourselves some deepquestions.
Leslie struggles with this, ohmy God.
I not so much, but she has comea long way and I'm going to say
(03:01):
this podcast has brought her along way and it was her idea and
it was my idea.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Why the hell do I bring up these crazy?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
ideas.
This is what you do.
This is what you do.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I'm like what the who said this you.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You and I said great idea, Liz, let's do it and then
it was like okay here we are,we're going to be asking
ourselves questions and that getus to think deeply right, and
to share those with you.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I'm a public radio listener and.
I came across a new podcastslash radio show called Wild
Wild Card with Rachel Martin,and what it is?
It's an interview show ofartists, musicians and creatives
(03:56):
.
And well, it has a twist.
And the twist to me was veryintriguing because, while I
don't personally like going toodeep in my thoughts, I like
listening to other people.
It's kind of like my voyeurism,I get off on it.
So this show, wild Card, I'mgoing to read it.
(04:17):
It says it rips up the typicalinterview script and invites
guests to answer questionsthey've never been asked before
about life's biggest questions.
So, you kind of have to go deepand I, knowing I was a little
(04:38):
uncomfortable with it and youknow that's just who I am, but I
said I'm not going to.
Each time I listen to thepodcast or the radio show, I
write down some of the questions.
I'm like, oh, this is good,this is good.
And then I'm like, ange, weshould do this.
I'm not going to look at thequestions again.
Obviously I wrote them, but awhile ago, I'm not going to look
at it again.
And then I'm like when I even,ange, when I started talking to
(05:01):
you about it, didn't I?
I was standing up and I waslike Leslie what did you do?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You went from excitement to dread.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'm like what could go wrong?
And then I'm like, but you'renot into this stuff, you don't
like this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So I don't know Yet here we are and we're going to
do it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And that reminds me I think back in one of our prior
seasons.
It could have been season threeor four, I don't recall.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Because we're at season 13 now, so it's been a
while yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So we also did a question and answer yeah,
whatever.
And I remember in fact weprobably did it a few times and
I remember one of the questionsI'm like I'm not answering, that
I'm not answering.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
And we don't like push each other to do things
that we just absolutely don'twant to do, of course, but we do
push each other to go beyondour comfort, right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
OK, so let's say I don't want to go to number five.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
No, no, no, Leslie you push me.
I'm speaking generally.
Now I'm not talking aboutquestions five.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I'm talking about level five.
Oh yes, so you don't push metill I break, no, but you push
me till I want to break.
I push you till you bend.
All right, so you get me to alevel 3.75 out of five If I want
to be, and I'm comfortable attwo, but then I thank you for it
(06:49):
.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Shoot that scared me.
I'm good, that was my ringlight dying, but we're going to
keep it moving.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
This is what happens.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
No, but I know that it's on those edges that
learning happens right, you haveyour safe and they're right on
the outer fringes of your safecomfort zone.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
You put that so eloquently.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's where learning happens, and I want that for you
, and you want that for me, andwe want that for y'all who are
listening.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's true, it's true.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Let's do it.
Let's do it, let's stop talkingabout a rip off the bandaid.
What are the questions Now?
You have the questions I don't,so you get, you get a.
You can pick my questions Idon't know, okay, and pick your
own.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's okay, we're gonna know we're gonna pick,
we're to say the same thing, butyou may need to go first,
because I often need a littlemore time than you do to come up
with answers.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I don't know if I like that we're both answering
the same thing, but anyway,let's just jump in.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I didn't write down very many of the questions.
That's fine.
We just need.
It's fine, and will you forgiveme if I defer?
Okay, I'm going to do my best.
I'm going to do my best.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'm going to do my best.
Do your best.
I'll get you after the show.
So you know just, you ain'tgoing to totally escape it.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'm just saying as a child, when did you first
realize that your parents didn'thave all the answers?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Whoa.
Okay, I'll say the first thingthat comes to mind.
All right, and I'm thinking ofsomething as well, but it's yeah
, I remember distinctly freshmanyear in college is when I
(08:41):
realized that my mother was awhole woman all by herself, and
not just my mother or, you know,not just me and my siblings'
mother.
That's when I realized that, ohshit, I never saw her fully
(09:05):
until freshman year of collegeand I can't recall in this
moment what created that shiftfor me, but I remember it like
it was yesterday.
I remember the apartment I wasin because I was living off
campus.
I remember the apartment I wasin because I was living off
campus and I remember it was aconversation either with her or
(09:28):
one of my friends or my sisteror something.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
In-person conversation.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
No, no, it was on the phone and I remember it was
like a flood, it was like aclick happened and I was like,
oh, wow.
And I just started thinkingabout all the things, and most
(09:57):
of them were all the ways that Idid not fully see my mother and
didn't see that her vision was.
Was the shit Like like what shewanted in life?
And the way that she wassetting things up, setting me up
, setting my siblings up, thethe things that she talked about
(10:21):
getting, that I just kind ofignored or just I just didn't
see her as a visionary, as thevisionary that she was, wow, and
I also never until then saw heras a woman who had, you know,
(10:44):
had loved, loved partners, lovedher husband, was devastated by
her husband.
You know those types of thingslike a real person.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Like a real person until freshman year.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's so interesting that you say that and wow.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I'll give you my answer, but my answer is gonna
be so ridiculous.
See you go.
So you, you do that deep shitand me I'm like way up there on
in in the sky I'll just skimaround the edges.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
No, but seriously, that that was, that was when,
and, and out of it, I think,came some regret.
For sure, but out of it I'llkind of bring it to um how,
towards the end of my mother'slife, um, my mother died of um
(11:37):
Alzheimer's or dementia becausethey hadn't diagnosed the
particular you know umAlzheimer's in particular.
I love you said that, like youknow that most people in
particular.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love that you said that.
Like you know that most peopledon't know that there are
20-something different types ofdementia.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So dementia is flowers and Alzheimer's is a
daisy, like my Panamaniandaisies Anyway.
So when I was caring for her,when she didn't know who I was,
and I think that thatrealization that I came to when
(12:17):
I was, you know, 18 or 19,helped me to care for her and to
kind of release her from why ismy mother acting this way?
Why is my mother so different?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
And you saw her in her own individual personhood
yes.
Oh my gosh, that's so profoundAnge.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I'm telling you, I'm telling you.
And I was able to.
I can remember this is the lastthing I'm going to say I can
remember bathing my mother oneday and I'd taken the leave of
absence from work because Ireally wanted to slow down to
her pace and I remember bathingher and just taking the time to
(13:04):
feel her like, touch her skinand remember all the things you
know skin.
I remember all the things youknow.
And so I think if I hadn'treached that, that point of
seeing her as a whole person inmy youth, I would have, it would
have been a very differentexperience that I had with her
as she came to the end of herlife.
So Wow.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
There's so much to unpack.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Oh, the comment on that, listen, don't unpack me.
Don't unpack me, just receiveit.
I'm just kidding.
You didn't say anything aboutunpacking, you just said I had
to answer.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So you want me to say uh-huh, no, really Ooh,
interesting Amazing.
Amazing.
That's a note, go ahead.
So there's so much.
I remember about that time whenmom was sick, just visiting her
and caring for her and one ofthe things that I'll never
forget.
She said to me she didn't knowwho you were.
(14:01):
She didn't know who I waseither, and I would ask you know
, like mom, do you know me or doyou know me?
And she's like no, but I knowyou love me.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah.
Remember, she said that it waslike I don't know, but I know
you love me.
Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I just said like, wow , that's pretty deep.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I think if you came to that realization in freshman
year when you were a lateteenager you had the benefit on
my own individuality and it wasa little more, all about me and
my desire to separate from mymother, and you know, so I was
more self-focused thanconsidering her as anything
other than my mother.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And only after perhaps, I became a mother and
even after that did I considerwhat her spans of young
adulthood, motherhood and all ofthat must?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
have been like Right, you know, but it came to all of
that must have been like Right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
You know, but it came to me much later than you.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, okay, are you going to answer the same
question?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I'm going to answer the same question, but it's
going to be laughable, it'sgoing to become part of the skit
, of the snippet, because it'sso ridiculous.
It wasn't my parents, I'm goingto say my caretaker, but I
remember one Christmas Eve, youknow.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Les, can I ask you to read the question again?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yes, as a child, when did you first realize that your
parents didn't have all theanswers?
Christmas was a big deal for usas children, right, and I'm
sure I believed in Santa Claus,you know, and I just remember.
(16:21):
You know it was a big deal,like my aunts and my grandmother
and all.
They would all come to thehouse and I don't know why.
I didn't know why they would beat the house Christmas Eve.
But we were in the bed and hadto go to sleep or whatever.
And I remember being awake inthe middle of the night or at
whatever time it seemed like themiddle of the night to me and I
(16:42):
heard my aunt say here's thisgift.
Wrap this gift over here andput it under the tree.
Oh snap, and I was in the bed.
Like what you mean?
It doesn't come through thechimney, what so?
So her big mouth yelling acrossthe room when your ass was
(17:10):
supposed to be sleeping.
My bubble was like and that wasthe end of my childhood.
Oh, no, Stop it, stop it.
You know, when you no longerbelieve in the Tooth Fairy or
Santa Claus, you might as wellget married.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You didn't say that you might as well get married.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
You're so funny.
So yeah, that was mysuperficial answer.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Okay, listen, what's all this judgment?
I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Oh, okay, well, you wait till you hear the next
question.
Oh, okay, well, you wait tillyou hear the next question.
If you think that's judgment,wait till.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I hear the random question.
I wrote.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
But it was random.
I didn't look at it ahead oftime.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You ready?
I'm ready.
Who's answering first?
You?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Okay, whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
You know, because you're easier than I am.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Just go right ahead, babe.
When was the first time youremember feeling proud of
yourself?
Oh, boy, and when was the lasttime?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Oh snap, okay, Okay, okay.
The first time that I canremember feeling proud of myself
was when I made first clarinetin junior high school for
graduation.
(18:43):
What, yes?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
First of all, I've known you a gazillion years and
I don't remember ever knowingthat you played clarinet.
I played clarinet, but Icertainly wasn't first, second
or probably third clarinet.
I was fucking around chewing onthe reed.
(19:09):
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
What?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Wow, yes, that's awesome, it was an elementary
school.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It was junior high school, so middle school 258.
Sorry, jhs 258.
And actually here's the thing Iwas valedictorian.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, I was valedictorian and I was
valedictorian.
I don't think I knew thateither.
I mean, I knew you were kind ofbright.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I was valedictorian, but notice, that's not what I
said I was most proud of, I know, is that I was first clarinet
for that graduation ceremony.
I made it to first clarinet forthat.
(20:02):
Mr Steinwinder, yeah, I thinkhe was our music teacher, a big,
tall, uh, just kind man teacherand, um, some of my closest
friends at the time were in bandalso and I, yeah, I felt so
(20:26):
proud of that because, you know,playing an instrument it's just
, it was, it was new.
I had to practice a lot.
My mother god bless her shebought a clarinet for me, a used
clarinet.
When she saw that I wascommitted and that was another
kind of mommy saw that I, Ireally wanted this and so,
(20:46):
instead of kind of rentingwhatever she, she bought me one
and I can still remember thesmell of the case, yep, and so
that was the first time that Ican remember just being really
really proud of myself, and whenwas the last time?
The last time was a few weeksago.
(21:07):
A few weeks ago, when I was inPanama and realized that I was
doing something that I justdreamt about and that my family,
my bestie, saw me and was therewith me.
(21:30):
And were there with me Becauseover the period of time that I
was there, as you know, thefirst part of the trip was you
and my sons, and then myfirstborn, and then my sister
and my niece.
So I was on this thing where Iwas just talking about it,
thinking about it, and then Iwas actually there and I was
(21:51):
proud of myself for the followthrough, for being um.
I am proud of myself because itwas just complete obedience to
this, to this um, to thisleading that I was given.
And you know, you have allthese internal yeah and did it
(22:18):
anyway and was there.
And while I was there, I reallyfelt it.
I really felt like, wow, andyou, you, you're, you're doing
the talk about this.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, Remember a couple of times we're like look
around, look where we are it waslike can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So yeah, so that's it .
Speaker 2 (22:36):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay, your turn.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I'm having difficulty with the first time stuff and
say one of the things I used tobe very proud of was one of my
escapes because there were threeof us.
One of the escapes I know Itold you this story was I used
(23:00):
to go to Nana's house and it wasa big deal when you would go by
yourself and your siblingsdidn't come with you.
It was kind of like yourspecial time with my grandmother
and great-grandmother.
So Nana, both of them actuallywould sew.
So I would go there and sew andmake clothes and I remember I
would make clothes and wear themto school.
(23:21):
That I used to be really proudof.
Because I just remember twothings about this shirt I loved
it because I really put a lot ofwork into it, but it had a
pattern on it animals andthere's two things and I wore
this thing to junior highregularly because I loved it
(23:43):
Good for you I cut the patternupside down, so the animals were
upside down they weren't rightside up, right, right, right so
what?
and at that point I didn't knowhow to make buttonholes so I
didn't put any buttons on itokay and I think I would use a
(24:04):
safety pin and, oh my gosh,whatever, but I was proud of the
fact that I was wearing clothesthat I created and Nana showed
me how to sew.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Right, nice so that was an early.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Another thing that happened many a number of years
ago.
That I don't want to lose thefeeling, yeah, but I was always
proud of my fidelity and myfaithfulness to my marriage and
my commitment to my marriage.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Right, wow, you know, I mean we all know, now I'm no
longer married, but it was areal.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It is a real sense of pride for myself that the
commitment and the seriousnesswith which I, you know, put into
it.
You know, for many reasons itdidn't you know whatever, but I
still can say there are twopeople involved.
There were two, yes, but butyeah, I, it's still something
(25:06):
that I know in my heart.
You know that.
You know that, that that's onesource of pride, and I think the
last source of pride, time whenI was proud of myself was just
today.
You know, I had six patientstoday.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
And Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Is that typical?
Yeah, it's typical, it'stypical.
But one patient, actually two.
In particular, I'm proud ofmyself when they tell me that I
made their experience different.
Oh nice Because I know as ananesthesiologist, that I can
make them comfortable, put themto sleep, because otherwise they
(25:47):
wouldn't have the procedure orwhat have you put them to sleep
because otherwise they wouldn'thave the procedure, or what?
Have you, but yeah, when theygo from, I'm so afraid, I'm so
afraid to thank you.
You really made a difference,because many people are
satisfied, and then they leaveyeah, but the people who?
Verbally tell you that you madea difference.
I felt proud today and I heardthat twice, beautiful.
(26:07):
Yeah, so that was the last timeI felt proud today, yay go you
this one is, but I'm just gonnago like no judgment no, that's
right, yeah, that's right.
When do you feel most like anoutsider?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Oh wow, leslie Pass no.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I almost want to pass .
Well, I'm going to think of it.
While you think of it, you wantme to skip it and we come back
to it.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, maybe Because I know what I want to say, but I
don't know if I want to say it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I see, I see I don't even know what I want to say,
but I don't know if I want tosay it.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I see, I see I don't even know what I want to say.
Maybe we'll come back to it.
I'm going to push myself, butmaybe we'll come back to it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Okay, I need to just get up and get my book right
there with the other questions.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Hold, please, hold please, and I'll think about
whether I want to answer becausesomething else, something
another answer came and I wantto check myself to see whether I
want to do the second answerbecause I'm running from the
first one, or whether it's legit.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
But you're brave, you do bold things.
I do, and I also choose when Iwant to do them and when you're
brave, you do bold things.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I do, and I also choose when I want to do them
and when I don't want to do them, because it's my prerogative.
What you got.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
What's a belief that you chose to let go of?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Oh easy, really, Really easy, really Easy.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Okay spill it.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I chose to let go of the first and, I believe, the
wrong way that I was taughtabout homosexuality.
I chose to let go of that andyou were a part of that actually
(28:24):
.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Really how so.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I don't even know if you know this, there was
Gosh.
This was decades ago.
There was, and it was profoundbecause it affected me as a
(28:52):
parent and then me personally asan extension of that right, and
it affected my relationshipwith, with god and how I saw
what I because I, okay, so thisone is big, okay, so you, you,
(29:17):
you know me like during highschool, whatever I was like more
a majority Right, and what Imean by that is not in the kind
of, you know, like proselytizingfire and brimstone or in the in
(29:47):
and out type of thing.
But you and my friends wouldcome to me and I'm thinking
about doing this.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I still do that.
I did that yesterday, so youhave not let go of that.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
it was good, it was kind of like well, you may want,
you do you still do so this was.
This was me in high school,right, um, and so I had these
really rigid rules around things, and they were a set of
(30:29):
principles that I had.
It doesn't mean, listen, thisis not about perfect, these are
the rules.
I broke them, I you know allthe things, but I had these kind
of codes of ethics that I usedright Okay, as we all do, but
yeah.
Okay, well, some of us I hope weall do but and I became, those
(30:54):
became peppered more and more asI grew in my faith right,
because I didn't really practicea faith as such in high school,
but as I became a mom and so on.
And you, on the other hand, hadslack.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Base.
Low and big, wanted Just yousee Lego base low and wanton
just you see Lego you, on theother hand, lawless, looking for
trouble, no, no, no.
You on the other hand.
(31:40):
That's why Mr Reiner said toher mother what he did, and we
were shocked that your mom letyou hang out with me.
I was trouble from way back.
You know how they say.
I knew she was trouble.
That's what my former husbandsaid.
I knew what you were up to.
I've known all along.
(32:01):
I knew you were up to no good.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
No, but all of that is funny.
But that is not what I mean.
What I mean is that you had abroader way of seeing things
right than I did at that timeand you.
There was something going onpolitically.
(32:25):
I don't recall that, but yousaid something and it started to
crack the shell for me.
You said you can't legislatelove.
You said that and it started tocrack open because it's like no,
you can't, because you can't,it's, it's, it's this, it's just
(32:49):
two different realms and um,and I remember this is going to
be funny and I'm not going to gointo this too deeply because
I'm not trying to get people tounderstand I just want to say
what happened.
I just want to say whathappened.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
And we don't have too much time left.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Okay, so listen, you know I go deep.
So so you know, we were part ofa Bible study, Leslie and I and
other other friends, and wewere the last three of us
standing.
We were in it for like yeah,over 10 years, right.
(33:27):
And so one time, leslie, I didsomething and leslie's kind of
curse to me was you taxcollector collector.
I can't remember what it was,but it was her way of, you know
(33:48):
right.
So it was like instead of sayingyou MF, she said you tax
collector.
And that was another thing inmy kind of weird unicorn framing
.
It was like, oh my gosh, it'slike you know, I get it.
(34:08):
There were these rules at thattime around certain things.
Now it's silly to call someonea tax collector and think that
that's going to hurt them in anyway, but in those days that was
the worst thing you could be.
And I'm going to kind of closeit there.
(34:28):
But that thing, that for me wasanother shift in the kind of
norms of the day versus now andthat was another kind of shell
opening up more for me.
I can go into it at anothertime, but I'm just saying that
these things happen andfortunately they happened and my
(34:54):
shifting started to reallyreally because when I don't
understand things and when youknow it's like, oh, the Bible
says and that if I can't findthe love in it, then I know it's
not of Christ.
Right, it's like I'm lookingfor the love.
If I can't find the love in it,then I look deeper.
And it allowed me to lookdeeper and deeper, and deeper
(35:15):
and it allowed me to become abetter mother to my children and
it allowed me to be a better,you know person to others and it
allowed me to be more of myself.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
And allowed you to know the word a little bit
better.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Oh, that for sure.
That part too, of course.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
You know what does this really mean?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
How has it become adulterated, in real life and in
practice Exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I couldn't have said it better and you know it allows
me like to be very open andtalking to other believers about
this, because it's kind of likeyou know, those who know better
do better.
My responsibility, since Godput me on that journey to where
I am.
Now that I and I understand howit was before, I was on that
(36:08):
journey Right and so I couldbridge for people, and I try to
take advantage of that wheneverI can.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And I think that people I know that people come
to knowledge when they're readyfor it.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,you know yeah, hear wow, I can't
believe you got me to talkabout that yeah, and all I did
was ask a question, but this oneand all I did was be honest to
(36:34):
you know, the first thing thatcame to me so I'm gonna say what
is a belief I chose to let goof.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I no longer believe that love relationships are
everlasting.
I don't believe in soulmatesanymore.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Ooh, snap, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I I almost you know don't believe like oh, snap, say
more.
I almost you know, don'tbelieve like I love you forever.
Oh, this is you know when youknow, and often, when people are
like, oh, we're getting married, I'm like, okay, do it if you
(37:27):
want to.
Oh, my goodness.
So I don't believe that you can.
I don't believe in love forever, happily, ever after love.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Wow, you don't believe it's possible, or you
don't believe that that is thegoat.
That is the goal.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I almost don't believe it's possible, but it
could be, because I kind ofthink when they say two people
you cleave into one person.
I don't know that it's evenpossible to let yourself go, Let
the self of who you are to letthat go, and then another person
(38:12):
has to do the same.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And I know with my personal experience, it was
almost like a million littlecuts, you know, until we found
ourselves at the opposite end ofthe spectrum, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, right.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
So, and you know, the beginnings and the makings were
like wonderful, it seemed, itseemed.
You know.
I can look back and say, youknow, the foundation wasn't
asings were like wonderful it's,it seemed, it seemed, you know.
I can look back and say youknow, the foundation wasn't as
strong as I thought it was, butthen I would say like, whose
foundation is?
You know, met very many peopleget married, um and coupled when
(38:54):
they're in their low twentiesand things like that.
It's like many twenties, somethings don't even know who they
are.
I don't really know who I wasuntil I was late thirties.
You know.
You know because I spent thoseearly years being a mom.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Right, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
so just like you say you saw your mother as a woman.
I didn't see myself as a womanuntil, uh, I finished doing some
of the busy work of mothering.
Okay, and then I got right intothe busy work of medical school
and then I got you know what Imean.
So I do you got to sit.
But what I'm saying is that I'mnot sure that human beings have
(39:32):
that capacity for that singleperson love forever, I think I.
I know that there are peoplethat do it and it's wonderful,
you know it's like oh, I justcelebrate my capacity, or does
that mean there is a capacity?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Well, I'm going to say it's.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I know.
No, I think the unicorns can doit, but but statistics say most
people cannot.
If they're honest, you know wemay.
You know I stayed in myrelationship, you know, when we
lived almost separately in a way.
So I'm not talking about thatkind of existence.
(40:10):
You can stay married, Sure, youknow I'm talking about devoted
and loving and connected forthat amount of time, I'm not
sure, but right now I'm prettycynical, uh-uh.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Wow, and are you okay with being cynical, or that's
something you want to challenge?
Speaker 2 (40:30):
No, I think it's something that I want to
challenge because, you know,right now I'm in a loving
relationship.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yes so.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
I don't want to go into or even in the back of my
mind say this shit ain't gonnalast.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Okay, this into or even in the back of my mind, say
this shit ain't gonna last.
Okay, this is.
So is this?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
a.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So this is a so is this a therapy?
Is this a therapy for blackgirls moment?
Is that what's what's?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
well, yeah, I think it's it's.
It's certainly something thatI'm gonna bring up to my my
black therapist.
Yeah, but um, I had to answerthe question yeah, so that is a
belief.
I chose to let go of thathappily ever after.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Belief is no longer part of my world wow, okay, I
think this is a place of realdiscovery for you, you know so
what?
Yeah, that you can, that youcan say that very clearly,
because that's when you canstart looking at that right well
(41:29):
, that's true.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, you know how I talk about christmas, right?
I'm like, ah, christmas, youknow.
And it's the same thing.
When I have people say they'regetting married, I'm like, okay,
we should talk, but if you know, like I know, oh my goodness,
(41:50):
you know.
But I'm not bitter I'm just, Iguess still hurt, you know still
reeling a little bit from along-term marriage and divorce
and all of that Right right, Allreasonable.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Maybe the skin marks that are still you know I'm
still living through those burn.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Could be, could be those burn.
But what do you think aboutthat?
Happily ever after.
Well, here's the thing At 63, Idon't know how long my ever
after is, so it could happen forme.
It could be, you know, thatcould work for me right, but if
I were 23 or 33, I don't knowwell, I think I mean because,
(42:37):
think about, I was in a long, Iwas in a long-term relationship.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, I know, even before you were married, you
were in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, I at this point and I'm 62, yes, still younger
than you I do believe it'spossible.
I believe it's possible in therelationship that I'm in.
(43:11):
I believe it's possible Ibelieve it's possible, in the
relationship that I'm in and Iwould go beyond that and say
that that is the relationshipthat I'm going to have of what I
didn't have for so long, andbecause I'm really clear now
about what I need, what I want,what I'm not going to give up,
(43:33):
what I'm going to say and notsay what I'm going to figure out
.
You know the way I'm going tospeak to my partner, the way
that I expect to hear back, allof those things I'm so clear
about now, you know, addressingmy ego, finding language to talk
(43:53):
to myself, know what my judgesays to me.
My judge Judy, when, when she'sshowing up, and my judge Judy,
when, when she's showing up, andum, and I have skills that I
that I expect that I'll put intopractice now skills that I
never had before.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
It's a two-way street , though in what way?
You can come with your wholeevolved self yes but you also
have to have a partner that canmatch that and is willing and
able.
Not just willing, because youknow, as my partner, yes.
(44:43):
But we didn't.
We weren't able to meet in away that worked for both of us.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'll say it that way yeah Well, so I'll finish my
thought about my thing and thenI'll make a quick comment on you
.
So one thing is that I'm ablenow to choose the partner, to
recognize the partner that willbe willing to match me, Not
(45:14):
being the same as me, but beingable to having parity in these
things.
Having done their work.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
I get it.
So they become the shiny pennythat you look at and you're like
you over there, not just heyeeny meeny miny moe yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
So your choices are more informed.
Oh my gosh, night and day, wow.
Night and day, night and dayLike it, and day, night and day
Like it's, so Wow.
Wow, you're very clear aboutthat I could have this and you
know it's fairly new, but I'malso 62 and there are things
(45:57):
that you know the years that youhave left versus the years that
you've already lived.
You, you, you commit indifferent ways and you, you move
in different or you can.
And I got to say this I've donemy work, I'm still doing my
work, but I'm going to, I'mgoing to say with without um,
(46:19):
with with uh, um,self-compassion and with
humility, but also assertingthat I've done a lot of work on
myself and how I see the worldand so on, and I'm reaping the
fruits of that, by the grace ofGod.
Do you know what I?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
mean, I got a question for you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Can you do my work for me?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
You know I would, if I could babe.
Can you do my work?
Pal, I just need a favor, canyou do my work?
Oh, I'll pay.
Oh my gosh, uh no, and yeah,yeah.
So were you gonna say anythingmore about that?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
because then, well, I was just gonna say that you,
you, you are too, you, um, youknow you're doing your work too.
I think you know theserecognitions, that you have the
intensity of the things, thatyou feel those are areas of
exploration for you.
Now, right, and you're facingthose things and you're calling
them out.
I think that's a really healthyplace that you're in for now,
(47:35):
saying, ok, why do I feel thisway?
When do I feel this way?
You know all of those, that'sthe work can happen and you're
ready and I'm so excited aboutthat.
It's what I've been praying for.
One of the things that I prayconsistently for you is for you
to reach this point, so I'mexcited.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
That wasn't so painful.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Okay, you survived.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
All right Sitting here talking about Santa Claus.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
You're still able to smile.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
You don't feel wounded?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I hope no.
That was a good one.
Thank you, les.
Thanks for coming up with thisidea.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
All right.
Well, thank you for listening,folks, and I would love for you
to leave comments and don'tforget to press like and
subscribe, and thanks forlistening.
This has been another episodeof Black Boomer.
Besties from Brooklyn, brooklyn.
Hey Ange, hey Liz, how are you babe?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So many things Good answer.
So many things, so many thingsDitto.
But, I love the fact that we'reback in these United States,
both of us Somewhat united.
These disjointed states.
Let's just say we're back inthe States.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I don't want to be a liar.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
We're back in the States, yes, and I guess we got
to like get ease back into thehubbub of these Americas, that's
right.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
These Americas Because there are other Americas
.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, because we were in Central America.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
We were in Central America, correct.
But, we're back.
We're back in Estados Unidos.
Sí, sí, that's right, we areback.
Yeah, and it's good to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It is good to be back , but I noticed you spoke
Spanish.
You said those two words inSpanish.
However, when we were abroad,when I asked you to order in
Spanish, you're like I'm toohungry, Give me an English menu.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Listen, by that time I had moved into the hangry
state and you were expecting toomuch of me.
Too much of me.
I almost said something.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
But was it going to be in English or Spanish?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It was going to be in not too pleasant English.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Exactly, exactly.
I don't want to know thosewords in Spanish.
Excuse my French.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Excuse, excuse my cousin, excuse my cousin.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So let me start by saying welcome to another
episode of Black Boomer Bestiesfrom Brooklyn.
If you guys know us, you knowthat we're always laughing, I
mean especially today.
You know we just we're justhappy to talk to each other
because we've been talkingthrough WhatsApp.
I came back about two weeksbefore she did so it's like my
(02:05):
pal is not here in the States.
Where is she?
That didn't stop us fromtalking all the time, but you
know, it's a little bit better,Maybe every other day, instead
of three times a day.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Welcome.
I'm Angela and that's Leslie,my best friend of almost 50
years.
That's five zero.
We are two free thinking, 60something year old women who
have decided we have committedto live our lives more boldly
(02:39):
and more joyfully, and we inviteyou to come along with us today
, and we invite you to comealong with us Today we're going
to be asking ourselves some deepquestions.
Leslie struggles with this, ohmy God.
I not so much, but she has comea long way and I'm going to say
(03:01):
this podcast has brought her along way and it was her idea and
it was my idea.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Why the hell do I bring up these crazy?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
ideas.
This is what you do.
This is what you do.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I'm like what the who said this you.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You and I said great idea, Liz, let's do it and then
it was like okay here we are,we're going to be asking
ourselves questions and that getus to think deeply right, and
to share those with you.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I'm a public radio listener and.
I came across a new podcastslash radio show called Wild
Wild Card with Rachel Martin,and what it is?
It's an interview show ofartists, musicians and creatives
(03:56):
.
And well, it has a twist.
And the twist to me was veryintriguing because, while I
don't personally like going toodeep in my thoughts, I like
listening to other people.
It's kind of like my voyeurism,I get off on it.
So this show, wild Card, I'mgoing to read it.
(04:17):
It says it rips up the typicalinterview script and invites
guests to answer questionsthey've never been asked before
about life's biggest questions.
So, you kind of have to go deepand I, knowing I was a little
(04:38):
uncomfortable with it and youknow that's just who I am, but I
said I'm not going to.
Each time I listen to thepodcast or the radio show, I
write down some of the questions.
I'm like, oh, this is good,this is good.
And then I'm like, ange, weshould do this.
I'm not going to look at thequestions again.
Obviously I wrote them, but awhile ago, I'm not going to look
at it again.
And then I'm like when I even,ange, when I started talking to
(05:01):
you about it, didn't I?
I was standing up and I waslike Leslie what did you do?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You went from excitement to dread.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'm like what could go wrong?
And then I'm like, but you'renot into this stuff, you don't
like this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So I don't know Yet here we are and we're going to
do it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And that reminds me I think back in one of our prior
seasons.
It could have been season threeor four, I don't recall.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Because we're at season 13 now, so it's been a
while yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So we also did a question and answer yeah,
whatever.
And I remember in fact weprobably did it a few times and
I remember one of the questionsI'm like I'm not answering, that
I'm not answering.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
And we don't like push each other to do things
that we just absolutely don'twant to do, of course, but we do
push each other to go beyondour comfort, right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
OK, so let's say I don't want to go to number five.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
No, no, no, Leslie you push me.
I'm speaking generally.
Now I'm not talking aboutquestions five.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I'm talking about level five.
Oh yes, so you don't push metill I break, no, but you push
me till I want to break.
I push you till you bend.
All right, so you get me to alevel 3.75 out of five If I want
to be, and I'm comfortable attwo, but then I thank you for it
(06:49):
.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Shoot that scared me.
I'm good, that was my ringlight dying, but we're going to
keep it moving.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
This is what happens.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
No, but I know that it's on those edges that
learning happens right, you haveyour safe and they're right on
the outer fringes of your safecomfort zone.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
You put that so eloquently.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's where learning happens, and I want that for you
, and you want that for me, andwe want that for y'all who are
listening.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's true, it's true.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Let's do it.
Let's do it, let's stop talkingabout a rip off the bandaid.
What are the questions Now?
You have the questions I don't,so you get, you get a.
You can pick my questions Idon't know, okay, and pick your
own.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's okay, we're gonna know we're gonna pick,
we're to say the same thing, butyou may need to go first,
because I often need a littlemore time than you do to come up
with answers.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I don't know if I like that we're both answering
the same thing, but anyway,let's just jump in.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I didn't write down very many of the questions.
That's fine.
We just need.
It's fine, and will you forgiveme if I defer?
Okay, I'm going to do my best.
I'm going to do my best.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'm going to do my best.
Do your best.
I'll get you after the show.
So you know just, you ain'tgoing to totally escape it.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'm just saying as a child, when did you first
realize that your parents didn'thave all the answers?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Whoa.
Okay, I'll say the first thingthat comes to mind.
All right, and I'm thinking ofsomething as well, but it's yeah
, I remember distinctly freshmanyear in college is when I
(08:41):
realized that my mother was awhole woman all by herself, and
not just my mother or, you know,not just me and my siblings'
mother.
That's when I realized that, ohshit, I never saw her fully
(09:05):
until freshman year of collegeand I can't recall in this
moment what created that shiftfor me, but I remember it like
it was yesterday.
I remember the apartment I wasin because I was living off
campus.
I remember the apartment I wasin because I was living off
campus and I remember it was aconversation either with her or
(09:28):
one of my friends or my sisteror something.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
In-person conversation.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
No, no, it was on the phone and I remember it was
like a flood, it was like aclick happened and I was like,
oh, wow.
And I just started thinkingabout all the things, and most
(09:57):
of them were all the ways that Idid not fully see my mother and
didn't see that her vision was.
Was the shit Like like what shewanted in life?
And the way that she wassetting things up, setting me up
, setting my siblings up, thethe things that she talked about
(10:21):
getting, that I just kind ofignored or just I just didn't
see her as a visionary, as thevisionary that she was, wow, and
I also never until then saw heras a woman who had, you know,
(10:44):
had loved, loved partners, lovedher husband, was devastated by
her husband.
You know those types of thingslike a real person.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Like a real person until freshman year.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's so interesting that you say that and wow.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I'll give you my answer, but my answer is gonna
be so ridiculous.
See you go.
So you, you do that deep shitand me I'm like way up there on
in in the sky I'll just skimaround the edges.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
No, but seriously, that that was, that was when,
and, and out of it, I think,came some regret.
For sure, but out of it I'llkind of bring it to um how,
towards the end of my mother'slife, um, my mother died of um
(11:37):
Alzheimer's or dementia becausethey hadn't diagnosed the
particular you know umAlzheimer's in particular.
I love you said that, like youknow that most people in
particular.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love that you said that.
Like you know that most peopledon't know that there are
20-something different types ofdementia.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So dementia is flowers and Alzheimer's is a
daisy, like my Panamaniandaisies Anyway.
So when I was caring for her,when she didn't know who I was,
and I think that thatrealization that I came to when
(12:17):
I was, you know, 18 or 19,helped me to care for her and to
kind of release her from why ismy mother acting this way?
Why is my mother so different?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
And you saw her in her own individual personhood
yes.
Oh my gosh, that's so profoundAnge.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I'm telling you, I'm telling you.
And I was able to.
I can remember this is the lastthing I'm going to say I can
remember bathing my mother oneday and I'd taken the leave of
absence from work because Ireally wanted to slow down to
her pace and I remember bathingher and just taking the time to
(13:04):
feel her like, touch her skinand remember all the things you
know skin.
I remember all the things youknow.
And so I think if I hadn'treached that, that point of
seeing her as a whole person inmy youth, I would have, it would
have been a very differentexperience that I had with her
as she came to the end of herlife.
So Wow.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
There's so much to unpack.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Oh, the comment on that, listen, don't unpack me.
Don't unpack me, just receiveit.
I'm just kidding.
You didn't say anything aboutunpacking, you just said I had
to answer.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So you want me to say uh-huh, no, really Ooh,
interesting Amazing.
Amazing.
That's a note, go ahead.
So there's so much.
I remember about that time whenmom was sick, just visiting her
and caring for her and one ofthe things that I'll never
forget.
She said to me she didn't knowwho you were.
(14:01):
She didn't know who I waseither, and I would ask you know
, like mom, do you know me or doyou know me?
And she's like no, but I knowyou love me.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah.
Remember, she said that it waslike I don't know, but I know
you love me.
Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I just said like, wow , that's pretty deep.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I think if you came to that realization in freshman
year when you were a lateteenager you had the benefit on
my own individuality and it wasa little more, all about me and
my desire to separate from mymother, and you know, so I was
more self-focused thanconsidering her as anything
other than my mother.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And only after perhaps, I became a mother and
even after that did I considerwhat her spans of young
adulthood, motherhood and all ofthat must?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
have been like Right, you know, but it came to all of
that must have been like Right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
You know, but it came to me much later than you.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, okay, are you going to answer the same
question?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I'm going to answer the same question, but it's
going to be laughable, it'sgoing to become part of the skit
, of the snippet, because it'sso ridiculous.
It wasn't my parents, I'm goingto say my caretaker, but I
remember one Christmas Eve, youknow.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Les, can I ask you to read the question again?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yes, as a child, when did you first realize that your
parents didn't have all theanswers?
Christmas was a big deal for usas children, right, and I'm
sure I believed in Santa Claus,you know, and I just remember.
(16:21):
You know it was a big deal,like my aunts and my grandmother
and all.
They would all come to thehouse and I don't know why.
I didn't know why they would beat the house Christmas Eve.
But we were in the bed and hadto go to sleep or whatever.
And I remember being awake inthe middle of the night or at
whatever time it seemed like themiddle of the night to me and I
(16:42):
heard my aunt say here's thisgift.
Wrap this gift over here andput it under the tree.
Oh snap, and I was in the bed.
Like what you mean?
It doesn't come through thechimney, what so?
So her big mouth yelling acrossthe room when your ass was
(17:10):
supposed to be sleeping.
My bubble was like and that wasthe end of my childhood.
Oh, no, Stop it, stop it.
You know, when you no longerbelieve in the Tooth Fairy or
Santa Claus, you might as wellget married.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You didn't say that you might as well get married.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
You're so funny.
So yeah, that was mysuperficial answer.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Okay, listen, what's all this judgment?
I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Oh, okay, well, you wait till you hear the next
question.
Oh, okay, well, you wait tillyou hear the next question.
If you think that's judgment,wait till.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I hear the random question.
I wrote.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
But it was random.
I didn't look at it ahead oftime.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You ready?
I'm ready.
Who's answering first?
You?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Okay, whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
You know, because you're easier than I am.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Just go right ahead, babe.
When was the first time youremember feeling proud of
yourself?
Oh, boy, and when was the lasttime?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Oh snap, okay, Okay, okay.
The first time that I canremember feeling proud of myself
was when I made first clarinetin junior high school for
graduation.
(18:43):
What, yes?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
First of all, I've known you a gazillion years and
I don't remember ever knowingthat you played clarinet.
I played clarinet, but Icertainly wasn't first, second
or probably third clarinet.
I was fucking around chewing onthe reed.
(19:09):
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
What?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Wow, yes, that's awesome, it was an elementary
school.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It was junior high school, so middle school 258.
Sorry, jhs 258.
And actually here's the thing Iwas valedictorian.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, I was valedictorian and I was
valedictorian.
I don't think I knew thateither.
I mean, I knew you were kind ofbright.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I was valedictorian, but notice, that's not what I
said I was most proud of, I know, is that I was first clarinet
for that graduation ceremony.
I made it to first clarinet forthat.
(20:02):
Mr Steinwinder, yeah, I thinkhe was our music teacher, a big,
tall, uh, just kind man teacherand, um, some of my closest
friends at the time were in bandalso and I, yeah, I felt so
(20:26):
proud of that because, you know,playing an instrument it's just
, it was, it was new.
I had to practice a lot.
My mother god bless her shebought a clarinet for me, a used
clarinet.
When she saw that I wascommitted and that was another
kind of mommy saw that I, Ireally wanted this and so,
(20:46):
instead of kind of rentingwhatever she, she bought me one
and I can still remember thesmell of the case, yep, and so
that was the first time that Ican remember just being really
really proud of myself, and whenwas the last time?
The last time was a few weeksago.
(21:07):
A few weeks ago, when I was inPanama and realized that I was
doing something that I justdreamt about and that my family,
my bestie, saw me and was therewith me.
(21:30):
And were there with me Becauseover the period of time that I
was there, as you know, thefirst part of the trip was you
and my sons, and then myfirstborn, and then my sister
and my niece.
So I was on this thing where Iwas just talking about it,
thinking about it, and then Iwas actually there and I was
(21:51):
proud of myself for the followthrough, for being um.
I am proud of myself because itwas just complete obedience to
this, to this um, to thisleading that I was given.
And you know, you have allthese internal yeah and did it
(22:18):
anyway and was there.
And while I was there, I reallyfelt it.
I really felt like, wow, andyou, you, you're, you're doing
the talk about this.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, Remember a couple of times we're like look
around, look where we are it waslike can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So yeah, so that's it .
Speaker 2 (22:36):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay, your turn.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I'm having difficulty with the first time stuff and
say one of the things I used tobe very proud of was one of my
escapes because there were threeof us.
One of the escapes I know Itold you this story was I used
(23:00):
to go to Nana's house and it wasa big deal when you would go by
yourself and your siblingsdidn't come with you.
It was kind of like yourspecial time with my grandmother
and great-grandmother.
So Nana, both of them actuallywould sew.
So I would go there and sew andmake clothes and I remember I
would make clothes and wear themto school.
(23:21):
That I used to be really proudof.
Because I just remember twothings about this shirt I loved
it because I really put a lot ofwork into it, but it had a
pattern on it animals andthere's two things and I wore
this thing to junior highregularly because I loved it
(23:43):
Good for you I cut the patternupside down, so the animals were
upside down they weren't rightside up, right, right, right so
what?
and at that point I didn't knowhow to make buttonholes so I
didn't put any buttons on itokay and I think I would use a
(24:04):
safety pin and, oh my gosh,whatever, but I was proud of the
fact that I was wearing clothesthat I created and Nana showed
me how to sew.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Right, nice so that was an early.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Another thing that happened many a number of years
ago.
That I don't want to lose thefeeling, yeah, but I was always
proud of my fidelity and myfaithfulness to my marriage and
my commitment to my marriage.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Right, wow, you know, I mean we all know, now I'm no
longer married, but it was areal.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It is a real sense of pride for myself that the
commitment and the seriousnesswith which I, you know, put into
it.
You know, for many reasons itdidn't you know whatever, but I
still can say there are twopeople involved.
There were two, yes, but butyeah, I, it's still something
(25:06):
that I know in my heart.
You know that.
You know that, that that's onesource of pride, and I think the
last source of pride, time whenI was proud of myself was just
today.
You know, I had six patientstoday.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
And Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Is that typical?
Yeah, it's typical, it'stypical.
But one patient, actually two.
In particular, I'm proud ofmyself when they tell me that I
made their experience different.
Oh nice Because I know as ananesthesiologist, that I can
make them comfortable, put themto sleep, because otherwise they
(25:47):
wouldn't have the procedure orwhat have you put them to sleep
because otherwise they wouldn'thave the procedure, or what?
Have you, but yeah, when theygo from, I'm so afraid, I'm so
afraid to thank you.
You really made a difference,because many people are
satisfied, and then they leaveyeah, but the people who?
Verbally tell you that you madea difference.
I felt proud today and I heardthat twice, beautiful.
(26:07):
Yeah, so that was the last timeI felt proud today, yay go you
this one is, but I'm just gonnago like no judgment no, that's
right, yeah, that's right.
When do you feel most like anoutsider?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Oh wow, leslie Pass no.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I almost want to pass .
Well, I'm going to think of it.
While you think of it, you wantme to skip it and we come back
to it.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, maybe Because I know what I want to say, but I
don't know if I want to say it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I see, I see I don't even know what I want to say,
but I don't know if I want tosay it.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I see, I see I don't even know what I want to say.
Maybe we'll come back to it.
I'm going to push myself, butmaybe we'll come back to it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Okay, I need to just get up and get my book right
there with the other questions.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Hold, please, hold please, and I'll think about
whether I want to answer becausesomething else, something
another answer came and I wantto check myself to see whether I
want to do the second answerbecause I'm running from the
first one, or whether it's legit.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
But you're brave, you do bold things.
I do, and I also choose when Iwant to do them and when you're
brave, you do bold things.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I do, and I also choose when I want to do them
and when I don't want to do them, because it's my prerogative.
What you got.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
What's a belief that you chose to let go of?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Oh easy, really, Really easy, really Easy.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Okay spill it.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I chose to let go of the first and, I believe, the
wrong way that I was taughtabout homosexuality.
I chose to let go of that andyou were a part of that actually
(28:24):
.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Really how so.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I don't even know if you know this, there was
Gosh.
This was decades ago.
There was, and it was profoundbecause it affected me as a
(28:52):
parent and then me personally asan extension of that right, and
it affected my relationshipwith, with god and how I saw
what I because I, okay, so thisone is big, okay, so you, you,
(29:17):
you know me like during highschool, whatever I was like more
a majority Right, and what Imean by that is not in the kind
of, you know, like proselytizingfire and brimstone or in the in
(29:47):
and out type of thing.
But you and my friends wouldcome to me and I'm thinking
about doing this.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I still do that.
I did that yesterday, so youhave not let go of that.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
it was good, it was kind of like well, you may want,
you do you still do so this was.
This was me in high school,right, um, and so I had these
really rigid rules around things, and they were a set of
(30:29):
principles that I had.
It doesn't mean, listen, thisis not about perfect, these are
the rules.
I broke them, I you know allthe things, but I had these kind
of codes of ethics that I usedright Okay, as we all do, but
yeah.
Okay, well, some of us I hope weall do but and I became, those
(30:54):
became peppered more and more asI grew in my faith right,
because I didn't really practicea faith as such in high school,
but as I became a mom and so on.
And you, on the other hand, hadslack.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Base.
Low and big, wanted Just yousee Lego base low and wanton
just you see Lego you, on theother hand, lawless, looking for
trouble, no, no, no.
You on the other hand.
(31:40):
That's why Mr Reiner said toher mother what he did, and we
were shocked that your mom letyou hang out with me.
I was trouble from way back.
You know how they say.
I knew she was trouble.
That's what my former husbandsaid.
I knew what you were up to.
I've known all along.
(32:01):
I knew you were up to no good.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
No, but all of that is funny.
But that is not what I mean.
What I mean is that you had abroader way of seeing things
right than I did at that timeand you.
There was something going onpolitically.
(32:25):
I don't recall that, but yousaid something and it started to
crack the shell for me.
You said you can't legislatelove.
You said that and it started tocrack open because it's like no,
you can't, because you can't,it's, it's, it's this, it's just
(32:49):
two different realms and um,and I remember this is going to
be funny and I'm not going to gointo this too deeply because
I'm not trying to get people tounderstand I just want to say
what happened.
I just want to say whathappened.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
And we don't have too much time left.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Okay, so listen, you know I go deep.
So so you know, we were part ofa Bible study, Leslie and I and
other other friends, and wewere the last three of us
standing.
We were in it for like yeah,over 10 years, right.
(33:27):
And so one time, leslie, I didsomething and leslie's kind of
curse to me was you taxcollector collector.
I can't remember what it was,but it was her way of, you know
(33:48):
right.
So it was like instead of sayingyou MF, she said you tax
collector.
And that was another thing inmy kind of weird unicorn framing
.
It was like, oh my gosh, it'slike you know, I get it.
(34:08):
There were these rules at thattime around certain things.
Now it's silly to call someonea tax collector and think that
that's going to hurt them in anyway, but in those days that was
the worst thing you could be.
And I'm going to kind of closeit there.
(34:28):
But that thing, that for me wasanother shift in the kind of
norms of the day versus now andthat was another kind of shell
opening up more for me.
I can go into it at anothertime, but I'm just saying that
these things happen andfortunately they happened and my
(34:54):
shifting started to reallyreally because when I don't
understand things and when youknow it's like, oh, the Bible
says and that if I can't findthe love in it, then I know it's
not of Christ.
Right, it's like I'm lookingfor the love.
If I can't find the love in it,then I look deeper.
And it allowed me to lookdeeper and deeper, and deeper
(35:15):
and it allowed me to become abetter mother to my children and
it allowed me to be a better,you know person to others and it
allowed me to be more of myself.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
And allowed you to know the word a little bit
better.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Oh, that for sure.
That part too, of course.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
You know what does this really mean?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
How has it become adulterated, in real life and in
practice Exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I couldn't have said it better and you know it allows
me like to be very open andtalking to other believers about
this, because it's kind of likeyou know, those who know better
do better.
My responsibility, since Godput me on that journey to where
I am.
Now that I and I understand howit was before, I was on that
(36:08):
journey Right and so I couldbridge for people, and I try to
take advantage of that wheneverI can.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And I think that people I know that people come
to knowledge when they're readyfor it.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,you know yeah, hear wow, I can't
believe you got me to talkabout that yeah, and all I did
was ask a question, but this oneand all I did was be honest to
(36:34):
you know, the first thing thatcame to me so I'm gonna say what
is a belief I chose to let goof.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I no longer believe that love relationships are
everlasting.
I don't believe in soulmatesanymore.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Ooh, snap, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I I almost you know don't believe like oh, snap, say
more.
I almost you know, don'tbelieve like I love you forever.
Oh, this is you know when youknow, and often, when people are
like, oh, we're getting married, I'm like, okay, do it if you
(37:27):
want to.
Oh, my goodness.
So I don't believe that you can.
I don't believe in love forever, happily, ever after love.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Wow, you don't believe it's possible, or you
don't believe that that is thegoat.
That is the goal.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I almost don't believe it's possible, but it
could be, because I kind ofthink when they say two people
you cleave into one person.
I don't know that it's evenpossible to let yourself go, Let
the self of who you are to letthat go, and then another person
(38:12):
has to do the same.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And I know with my personal experience, it was
almost like a million littlecuts, you know, until we found
ourselves at the opposite end ofthe spectrum, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, right.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
So, and you know, the beginnings and the makings were
like wonderful, it seemed, itseemed.
You know.
I can look back and say, youknow, the foundation wasn't
asings were like wonderful it's,it seemed, it seemed, you know.
I can look back and say youknow, the foundation wasn't as
strong as I thought it was, butthen I would say like, whose
foundation is?
You know, met very many peopleget married, um and coupled when
(38:54):
they're in their low twentiesand things like that.
It's like many twenties, somethings don't even know who they
are.
I don't really know who I wasuntil I was late thirties.
You know.
You know because I spent thoseearly years being a mom.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Right, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
so just like you say you saw your mother as a woman.
I didn't see myself as a womanuntil, uh, I finished doing some
of the busy work of mothering.
Okay, and then I got right intothe busy work of medical school
and then I got you know what Imean.
So I do you got to sit.
But what I'm saying is that I'mnot sure that human beings have
(39:32):
that capacity for that singleperson love forever, I think I.
I know that there are peoplethat do it and it's wonderful,
you know it's like oh, I justcelebrate my capacity, or does
that mean there is a capacity?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Well, I'm going to say it's.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I know.
No, I think the unicorns can doit, but but statistics say most
people cannot.
If they're honest, you know wemay.
You know I stayed in myrelationship, you know, when we
lived almost separately in a way.
So I'm not talking about thatkind of existence.
(40:10):
You can stay married, Sure, youknow I'm talking about devoted
and loving and connected forthat amount of time, I'm not
sure, but right now I'm prettycynical, uh-uh.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Wow, and are you okay with being cynical, or that's
something you want to challenge?
Speaker 2 (40:30):
No, I think it's something that I want to
challenge because, you know,right now I'm in a loving
relationship.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yes so.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
I don't want to go into or even in the back of my
mind say this shit ain't gonnalast.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Okay, this into or even in the back of my mind, say
this shit ain't gonna last.
Okay, this is.
So is this?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
a.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So this is a so is this a therapy?
Is this a therapy for blackgirls moment?
Is that what's what's?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
well, yeah, I think it's it's.
It's certainly something thatI'm gonna bring up to my my
black therapist.
Yeah, but um, I had to answerthe question yeah, so that is a
belief.
I chose to let go of thathappily ever after.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Belief is no longer part of my world wow, okay, I
think this is a place of realdiscovery for you, you know so
what?
Yeah, that you can, that youcan say that very clearly,
because that's when you canstart looking at that right well
(41:29):
, that's true.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, you know how I talk about christmas, right?
I'm like, ah, christmas, youknow.
And it's the same thing.
When I have people say they'regetting married, I'm like, okay,
we should talk, but if you know, like I know, oh my goodness,
(41:50):
you know.
But I'm not bitter I'm just, Iguess still hurt, you know still
reeling a little bit from along-term marriage and divorce
and all of that Right right, Allreasonable.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Maybe the skin marks that are still you know I'm
still living through those burn.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Could be, could be those burn.
But what do you think aboutthat?
Happily ever after.
Well, here's the thing At 63, Idon't know how long my ever
after is, so it could happen forme.
It could be, you know, thatcould work for me right, but if
I were 23 or 33, I don't knowwell, I think I mean because,
(42:37):
think about, I was in a long, Iwas in a long-term relationship.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, I know, even before you were married, you
were in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, I at this point and I'm 62, yes, still younger
than you I do believe it'spossible.
I believe it's possible in therelationship that I'm in.
(43:11):
I believe it's possible Ibelieve it's possible, in the
relationship that I'm in and Iwould go beyond that and say
that that is the relationshipthat I'm going to have of what I
didn't have for so long, andbecause I'm really clear now
about what I need, what I want,what I'm not going to give up,
(43:33):
what I'm going to say and notsay what I'm going to figure out
.
You know the way I'm going tospeak to my partner, the way
that I expect to hear back, allof those things I'm so clear
about now, you know, addressingmy ego, finding language to talk
(43:53):
to myself, know what my judgesays to me.
My judge Judy, when, when she'sshowing up, and my judge Judy,
when, when she's showing up, andum, and I have skills that I
that I expect that I'll put intopractice now skills that I
never had before.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
It's a two-way street , though in what way?
You can come with your wholeevolved self yes but you also
have to have a partner that canmatch that and is willing and
able.
Not just willing, because youknow, as my partner, yes.
(44:43):
But we didn't.
We weren't able to meet in away that worked for both of us.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'll say it that way yeah Well, so I'll finish my
thought about my thing and thenI'll make a quick comment on you
.
So one thing is that I'm ablenow to choose the partner, to
recognize the partner that willbe willing to match me, Not
(45:14):
being the same as me, but beingable to having parity in these
things.
Having done their work.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
I get it.
So they become the shiny pennythat you look at and you're like
you over there, not just heyeeny meeny miny moe yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
So your choices are more informed.
Oh my gosh, night and day, wow.
Night and day, night and dayLike it, and day, night and day
Like it's, so Wow.
Wow, you're very clear aboutthat I could have this and you
know it's fairly new, but I'malso 62 and there are things
(45:57):
that you know the years that youhave left versus the years that
you've already lived.
You, you, you commit indifferent ways and you, you move
in different or you can.
And I got to say this I've donemy work, I'm still doing my
work, but I'm going to, I'mgoing to say with without um,
(46:19):
with with uh, um,self-compassion and with
humility, but also assertingthat I've done a lot of work on
myself and how I see the worldand so on, and I'm reaping the
fruits of that, by the grace ofGod.
Do you know what I?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
mean, I got a question for you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Can you do my work for me?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
You know I would, if I could babe.
Can you do my work?
Pal, I just need a favor, canyou do my work?
Oh, I'll pay.
Oh my gosh, uh no, and yeah,yeah.
So were you gonna say anythingmore about that?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
because then, well, I was just gonna say that you,
you, you are too, you, um, youknow you're doing your work too.
I think you know theserecognitions, that you have the
intensity of the things, thatyou feel those are areas of
exploration for you.
Now, right, and you're facingthose things and you're calling
them out.
I think that's a really healthyplace that you're in for now,
(47:35):
saying, ok, why do I feel thisway?
When do I feel this way?
You know all of those, that'sthe work can happen and you're
ready and I'm so excited aboutthat.
It's what I've been praying for.
One of the things that I prayconsistently for you is for you
to reach this point, so I'mexcited.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
That wasn't so painful.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Okay, you survived.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
All right Sitting here talking about Santa Claus.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
You're still able to smile.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
You don't feel wounded?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I hope no.
That was a good one.
Thank you, les.
Thanks for coming up with thisidea.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
All right.
Well, thank you for listening,folks, and I would love for you
to leave comments and don'tforget to press like and
subscribe, and thanks forlistening.
This has been another episodeof Black Boomer.
Besties from Brooklyn, brooklyn.
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