130 | The Trickster Element: Linking UFOs, High Strangeness & Bigfoot - w/ Paranorm Girl Podcast - Black Cat Report | UFOs, Cryptids, True Crime & Paranormal

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Your pen goes missing just when you need it.
A lighter disappears into the ether when you just had it in
your pocket. Your favorite horse breaks its
leg in the last leg of a race. You're about to pay that mob
boss what you owe him from betting on the horse race, and
you reach in and there's a hole in your pocket.
Your money fell out and just like your horse, your leg is now

(00:23):
broken. But just like the last time,
you'll head back to the track because rent is due and you'll
never learn. After all, you still have one
other leg that works because younever heard the tales of the
tricksters. I didn't see you there.
It all started early this morning.
From hunting ghosts to Bigfoot UFOs.

(00:44):
Cryptids, true crime, paranormal, and more I.
Always wanted to see AUFO. Oh I was.
I was researching for your entertainment.
That's Bigfoot's cat. He basically wrote the book on
Monarch. We aren't really comedians.
What if Buddha did cocaine? The Addams family on meth.
This is the Black Cat report. See you on the other side.

(01:06):
Good evening and welcome to thisspecial episode mash up of the
Black Cat Report and Paranorm Girl podcasts.
I am ecstatic today because I get to introduce two people I
deeply respect, love, and think are probably some of the best
people to ever walk this Flat Earth.
First off, I'm going to introduce the pleasing and

(01:30):
handsome, capricious in behavior, cunning and guileful
Gil. Hello, thank you for such a a
warm and wonderful introduction.And it is my most pleasureful
ecstasy to introduce the enchanting in movement, the

(01:51):
beautifully beguiling in speech,the divinely mesmerizing
Kristen. Well, thank you, Joey, and thank
you Gil and Joey for doing this collab.
I've really been excited about this and this subject in
particular to dig into it with you guys.
I am so glad we did this. Yeah, hell yeah.

(02:12):
Kristen is the sole host, writer, producer, marketer,
owner and general all around badass of Paranormal Girl
podcast. And if you haven't followed yet,
now's the time to do it. Just do it.
It's real easy. Just hit, follow, like, and
subscribe on the Paranorm Girl Podcast wherever you're
listening to this, right? Yeah, thanks.

(02:34):
You just do everything. Me and Gil separate everything
we do. So it's like, all right, you're
basically double, but quadruple the double of me and Gil.
Yeah, but it's, hey, it's, it's worth it to do it the way that
you guys do it because I'm actually 25 and I, I, I doubled
in age. Just my I, I wake up feeling

(02:56):
like I run, run over by a truck every morning.
It's a lot. It's it's, it's a lot for one
person. But thank you.
I appreciate that. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, we're gathering here as a
special mash up today because wegot intrigued by the idea of
trickster gods and the idea of tricksters in general from a
past episode Gil himself had researched and narrated for the

(03:20):
wonderfully amazing El Pombero. And if you haven't listened to
that episode yet, it is episode 127.
You can take a listen right now.Well, a little later, but now
for today, we brought Kristen onto discuss the Trickster God and

(03:41):
Goddess or spirit phenomenon. We'll be going through a few of
the tricksters themselves and maybe at the end comparing and
contrasting their role and even some of their likenesses across
eras and locations. Tricksters in themselves, what I
like to call outlaws, and I wantto see if you guys can go along
with me on this, right? So let's see.

(04:02):
I feel like they're outlaws because in a sense they just
stayed right outside the societal norms and societal
laws, and they're constantly pushing boundaries to see if
they can bend OR break those boundaries, just like Gil did
back in the day and still does today.

(04:22):
OK, no, I'm not supposed. To say that no.
You know. Gil Gil with two LS.
Gil with two LS. You know, if, if I were to say
that you were any trickster, I would say you would probably be
Loki. Just it's an easy, easy one to
do. It's because, and that's why I

(04:42):
used the description of Loki to describe you in the intro.
Because I felt like, thank you so much.
I feel, I feel honored. I'm more of a pan man.
But that's just me, you know? But Loki's I I accept Loki.
Loki's awesome. Yeah, Loki's the shit.
I just something about Pan. I don't know, maybe it's because

(05:04):
like my arch nemesis is goats that I just kind of have this
like, you know, but that's that's how you manifest your
tricks. Your spirit is you kind of have
to love and appreciate somethingthat you hate.
You know what I'm saying? Like it has to be both ends.
Oh. That's right, you hate goats.
That came up in the last. Fucking hate them, Brinkley.
Fucking hate them. Yeah, not a fan, not a fan, but

(05:27):
I appreciate it. Hair and food, That would be my
nemesis. That's it.
I don't. I don't know how that trickster
trickster would like hair and. Food or hair in food?
Hair in food how does it always find its way into food it's.
Kristen's spiritual entity is a 711 a food selection do.

(05:51):
They have 711 and where you are.Me.
No, no, that was gosh, I haven'tseen a 711 since I was in
California actually. Do they have the come and goes
out there? No, we've got the what's it
called? No new new news.
No, no's. I don't know.

(06:12):
There's a weird, weird 1 sounds poo poos.
I can't remember. I think it's poo poos.
It's a chain. I feel like it's poo poos.
I'm gonna call it poo poos. And they do have hair in their
in their hot dogs and. It it's not like it's not like
face hair or like face hair or it's a mystery.
It's a mystery. You know chest hair that's on

(06:32):
there, Yeah. Does it matter at that point?
Yeah. Yeah, it's just.
Not good. We'll say, Joey, just cuz I'm,
I'm excited about what you're saying about going with the
outlaw thing. That is goddamn near universal
when it comes to tricksters in terms of always, almost always

(06:52):
being a symbol of rebellion and whatever country they're in.
So when revolutions, insurrections, things like that
pop off, it's super common for resistance groups to adapt the
the imagery of tricksters and like as a role in society.

(07:13):
They almost always question likethe establishment of authority
and push boundaries. So it's like being super profane
and being very immature, but also being wise at the same time
and like incredibly knowledgeable, but sounding like
a moron. You know, again, you know,
that's a goal that I have for myself.

(07:35):
But and like just slowly start sprouting goat legs below the
camera. But does anybody else want to
play flute? But no, it's they tricksters are

(07:56):
awesome. Tricksters are awesome.
I don't know. I'm excited to get into this.
Do we? I'm, I'm very fucking stoked.
I I've been like, for weeks, ever since Kristen first brought
up the idea during our during our premiere of Elbow Barrel
Christian. You know, you messaged me like,
I'm gonna do a collab episode with you about tricksters.
Jesus Christ. Hell yeah.
How soon can we do it? You know, I've just been like,

(08:17):
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I'm stoked, buddy. I'm stoked to get in.
Yeah. Can we start?
Do you wanna start with something?
Throw us a bone, Joey, and then we'll launch off there, cuz I
think all three of us are gonna be attacking this in different
ways. So yeah, I can try to get into
the evolution. Yeah.

(08:38):
Yeah. Why don't you kick us off?
Well, give me a minute. Oh, well, OK, while you're,
while you're doing that. Yeah.
El Palmbero, that was that was such a neat moment that I that I
was like, Oh my God, we got to do a trickster episode because
El Palmbero listening to you guys go through this episode and
I'm not going to give anything away because everybody needs to
go watch it. Episode one O 2 One O 7.

(08:59):
It's recent. It's very.
It's the only one that says El Pom Baro.
The title is kidnapped by a crypted El Pom Baro.
Yeah. It's very, very recent.
Just go take a look at their channel.
But listening to this description of this creature,
which I'd never heard of, I I didn't know what El Pom Baro was
listening to this description, it was like, Oh my God, that
sounds so familiar. What is with this pattern?

(09:21):
Like it sounds just like Bigfootto me, like, and and it was
matching these like, like pattern for pattern.
And I was like, Oh my gosh. And then I started thinking and
I was like, you know, I've equated, people have equated
Bigfoot to it. It, it does some weird things
that that falls in line with thetrickster.
And Oh my gosh, what if, what ifEl Palombaro is Bigfoot?

(09:44):
What if they're all what what's going on?
Is this a trickster? We got to do it.
So that's where I'm coming from.Yeah.
We're going to investigate Explorer.
I 100% want to go to so say they're all related, right?
I want to go to a trickster wedding.
Holy shit. Can you imagine that after party

(10:06):
all the tricksters hanging out together?
Yes, they're just like and and with these vows, I say divorce
surprise motherfucker. It's just like, oh, it was a
divorce the whole time. You got us.
Or what if they just all played tricks on you because you're the
only non trickster so like everybody ganged up on you.

(10:30):
I mean you're a trickster for sure in real life.
Like if you if there was an embodiment of a spirit, it would
be you. But what if they all ganged up
on you? You know, how would that?
How would? You love it?
Yeah, I would. I would love it.
I would absolutely love it. And also Donut in our chat
pointed out an excellent idea saying or made a great point

(10:51):
saying I would go to a Tricksterbonfire masquerade which Jesus
Christ if I had enough friends locally we would have one of
those. We're getting so bohemian, man.
Yeah. Hey, Jaden.
Welcome all. Well, tricksters in themselves

(11:12):
genuinely could be really cunning, or in some stories be
very, very, very, very, very, very, very gullible.
Take for example, the story of Laverna, who was the Roman
goddess of thieves, cheats, liars and fraudsters.
Laverna promised a priest who was selling his estate that in
exchange for the estate she would build a temple on the
land, but instead Laverna sold everything on the estate and of

(11:36):
course did not build a temple. When the priest went back to
look for Laverna, she was gone, and when she did it to another
person, those victims, Laverna'strickery, came and asked the
gods for help. The gods brought Laverna before
them and asked why she did not uphold the agreement.

(11:56):
Laverner made her body disappear, leaving only her head
and yelled Behold me, I swore mybody but body have I none?
And the gods got really confusedbecause Yoda and Star Wars had
not been released yet after that.
Yeah yeah sorry, not supposed tomake jokes when I'm writing the

(12:20):
script but I try anyways. It was.
Good. It was good.
Good job. Well, on the other side of it,
they could also be very gullibleand the trick was always ending
on them. That coyote spirit of the Hopi
was generally viewed as the gullible trickster.
The coyote was getting into manyadventures which end up serving

(12:42):
as moral teachings for either social interaction or etiquette.
And just as we said above, the trickster would be kind of
outside the societal norms in order to kind of establish the
boundary between what is acceptable and what is not.
And a lot of the indigenous tribes use tricksters.
Instead of saying that their morality is bad, they'd use it

(13:02):
to say that they're like, to teach lessons and that they're
above. So we don't really understand
what they're doing. Like basically like a God
looking down on us. Coyote itself would get tricked
and defeated by the animals thatwould interact with due to its
greediness, recklessness or its disobedience.
Right? So that's kind of what coyote

(13:22):
would happen. There is also some stories of
the coyote being the the non gullible one being the tricker,
but it's not as prevalent as theas the Hopi versions of it.
Here's Do you mind if I point out a little fun fact?
Coyotes. So I was actually being, you

(13:45):
know, I went down a rabbit hole the other day learning about
coyotes. And there's a fun little thing
that they do. So over, you know, thousands of
years of living incredibly closeto humans and like human
settlements and stuff, but neverquite allowing themselves to
become domesticated, they've picked up a lot of very

(14:09):
interesting tricks. And this is actually a survival
tip for folks because coyotes, fun fact, are in every single
city within the United States. You might not see them.
They exist. They live in packs, they run
around neighborhoods. Coyotes like go look up the
territory of coyotes and it's cities that you would not

(14:30):
expect. Like, LA has like a huge problem
with coyotes right now, like in downtown, like they're
everywhere. But with that, with them being
so close and so far classic trickster behavior, they they've
learned to do a couple of things.
And these are warning signs for you.
Seriously. Like, I'm not even making a joke

(14:51):
here. So they'll pretend to be
domesticated. They'll pretend to be all cute
and like loving up against you in order to lead you to a spot
where they will literally attackyou and try to kill you or eat
you. So they woke up and be like, oh,
hi. Oh, oh, yes, I do love when you

(15:13):
rub my hunch. Yeah.
Oh my God, chin scratches. It's been so long.
Hey, hey, do you want to come over here?
I found something cool. And then it'll just murder your
ass. So that's one trick that they
are known for doing to people. So this is like an actual, if
you're out at the park or you'reout and you're like, oh, it's
oh, God, it's a coyote. And then you're like, oh, wait,
oh, it's acting so cute. Oh it must be somebody's pet.

(15:35):
Don't fall for that shit. Seriously, this is a survival
tip. Another thing they'll do is
pretend to be injured and play on people's sympathy in order to
injure the person. So like I'm just saying.
Very fitting for a trickster too.
Like like that's solid survival advice.

(15:56):
If you're out in the woods and you're like, it's a coyote, just
like wait a second, notorious tricksters.
I'm not falling for that shit but I will give you some chin
scratches but not too many like.Humanity recognizes this type of
behavior so easily and like it. It is an archetype like Young,
you know, pegged it as one one of the archetypes, but it is

(16:18):
also so fitting too. That was this the the Cherokee
Coyote was was Cherokees trickster Hopi I'm.
Sorry, yeah, I mean it was pretty much most of the most of
the southern. Was it?
Southern indigenous tribes. But OK, yeah, it was it's just
so, so fitting for them to put this, this archetype, this

(16:41):
character onto that particular creature because they recognized
that behavior. They recognized it.
It was already, Yeah, the trickster was already there that
that thought of that, that set of behaviors.
Yeah. Interesting.
And I wonder how much, you know,has Joey goes through the
stories that he's about to deliver.

(17:01):
I wonder how many of these things kind of, you know, is it
the chicken or the egg kind of thing?
Is it a recognition of a trickster like entity being
essence, whatever. There's there's a million terms
for it. Is there a recognition of that?
And then in order to teach children about that, you say,

(17:23):
look at the coyote and look at this because it's so common for
folks to compare stuff that it might be complex, you know, but
has a broader, you know, an overarching moral or like lesson
to it to compare it to somethingin nature, right?
Like we have phrases like that all the time, you know, the

(17:43):
Thunder before the storm or likewhere there's smoke, there's
fire. We're like, we do these types of
things to come with these these analogies all the time.
And I wonder how many times it'slike, oh, the coyote became the
trickster, the trickster God or the trickster God that everybody
was aware of just really fit with the behavior.

(18:05):
And it was a great way to kind of teach folks and like,
basically kill two birds with one stone where you're like,
yeah, also watch out for him. But also there's this God out
there that you need to be careful about.
Like, I don't know. Or to help people conceptualize
that that God. Yeah, go ahead, Joey.
And you, Kristen, you, you mentioned Jung Yin, like the

(18:28):
theory behind it. You know, I just, he was old
when he came up these things. So why did they call him Carl
Jung? Jayden got you on that, Jayden,
Jayden earlier said. Impossible challenge.
Joey goes 30 seconds without saying a joke.

(18:49):
I lost. Thank you for the challenge.
OK. Joey.
Yeah, you know what? Got to add some laughter to
myself. Keep them coming.
No, keep them. Coming.
Joey's just over there, like somebody's got to make me laugh.
You just did good job. That was a nice one.
Kristen made me laugh earlier. She had a good one.

(19:11):
So all righty, let's hop right in.
Scoreboard got goddesses and. Spirits, keep them coming.
Yeah, so the first trickster we're going to talk about today
is Veilis. Which Veilis?
I don't know if you guys know who Veilis is.
VELESK chose this one because there isn't actually a whole lot

(19:33):
written about Veilis, and most of it is actually just from
spoken tales. Veilis, the God, serves as a
duality between societies, right?
So the earliest written reference to Veyless was in the
Ruse Byzantine Treaty OF971AD, in which signers swore by
Veyless's name, kind of like howwe swear on the Bible and God's

(19:56):
name when we testify in court. Veyless was associated with the
Rososlavic area of Europe, whichis basically where modern day
Slovakia, Romania, Ukraine, and southwestern Russia.
So it's in that Baltic area, youknow that little area.
Down there. The best place to buy an AK47
from. Got it.
Yeah, exactly. Bayless supplies and delivers.

(20:19):
Why do you know that? Go on.
Yeah, next story. I'm kidding.
That was literally the whole story.
The AK. So abrupt.
He was the AK47. I was just getting sucked in
Bayless. So all right, so with Bayless,
so we're in the Slovakian like regions and stuff.

(20:43):
And you said, folks, were they signed this treaty or this
trustees or whatever, like they,they signed it to his name.
And so they were like swearing an oath or they were basically
saying like it was their generation's version of being
like on God. Like that's what was happening
here. So this, this had to be like
pretty widely, widely accepted for this to make it into pseudo

(21:08):
legal documents at the time. Is there any, were you able to
find any depictions like early coins or like say like Shields
or something like that? Like anything associated with
'cause like, if it's that there was a few, I feel like it'd be
popping up some symbolically, you know?
There was a few early depictions.

(21:30):
This is also, if we think about it, it's just before
Christianity hits Russia in thatarea.
So it's just before that Christianity was brought over
there. So this is paganism.
This is their their style of paganism and witch gods because
there's a bunch of gods. Veyless is a is one of the many,
as you know, as we talk about every other culture around this

(21:53):
time has similar, has a bunch ofgods basically describing how
they understand what's going on in the world.
And that's another part about, you know, the trickster gods.
It's a, it's an ability to let them understand what's going on
in the world. Now the duality of Valus is that
Valus is also associated as wellas being a trickster, but

(22:18):
associated with poetry and wisdom, and as well as being the
Lord of waters, ocean, seas, ships and whirlpools.
Bayliss is also the hunter and protector of cattle, which is
just add another, you know, little star to Bayliss's name.
Little title. We had the most random gods back
in the day, like you were the gods of cats and missing socks.

(22:44):
Yeah, yeah. They just needed to put
something in it to fill the hole.
They they write and they're like, man, almost got to the end
of the page. Yeah, and and the.
You are the God of running out of room at the end of a page and
having to write really tiny at an upward angle.

(23:06):
Yeah, yeah. Well, on the other side of this,
he is also the God of the underworld.
So basically he's in the Christian terms he's the devil,
or in the Greek terms he's Hades.
So. God of burgers and burning.
Yeah, right. Yeah, I like it.
As Valles is the God of the underworld is more of the normal

(23:27):
trickster we're kind of used to hearing about right?
Not the God of poetry, Wisdom Lord of waters, more of the God
of the underworld. Using trickery he would drag
souls down to the underworld after they had passed away.
And depictions of Valles vary a lot amongst the culture amongst
the little tiny regions in Russo, Byzantine area,

(23:49):
differentiated and the vault like the small, the Yugoslavia,
Serb, Slovenia area, I think it's not Slovenia, Slovakia
area, all little different little things about it.
Some of them depicted as him just being a bald human male,
sometimes with like bull horns on his head.
Actually, if you want to think of it, he had kind of had the

(24:10):
bull horns, like trying to thinkof the God that had bull horns.
Like minitars or? Yeah, like kind of like a
minotaur, I guess, right, With abald head.
OK, OK, All I'm picturing right now, I mean a.
Lot of things have have horns, yeah.

(24:31):
That's right. It's not not one guy that I can
think of. It's a lot of.
All I'm picturing is movie nightlast night with Corp police.
Yeah. The the chief who had the poor
giant horns. Yeah, yeah.
And the creationist side of the story because it's really

(24:52):
there's, you know, most of thesetricksters have a two sides of
it, different sides of how they were created.
The creationist side of the story, he's shown as a huge
dragon lying in nest of black wool or black fleece beneath the
World Tree. And Gill, you know, is part of
the, you know of the, what is it?

(25:13):
Protector of cattle and everything around sheep, goats
as well. Seeing that this dragon killed a
bunch of goats probably makes you happy.
Yeah, I'm on. I'm generally on the trickster
side. This makes sense.
This is Valus and his his evolution.
They turned him into a dragon. Like this is part of the

(25:34):
evolution here. It's just different cultures.
Different cultures view him in different ways and how they
created, how one of them was like he's a creator.
And we'll see this in the indigenous stories too.
One of them says that he's a creator and another one's just
like, no, he's just like a fat, bald horned human, you know,

(25:55):
like, like he's one of he's one of us, you know, like thinking
of it like it's. Just fat, bald and horny.
Yeah, yeah. OK, Yeah.
I would say that he is almost the literal amalgamation of Loki
and Hades mixed together from Greek and Norse mythology
because like Hades he was throwndown into the underworld after

(26:18):
trying to kidnap the Mokash. The goddess of summer who is
also is a lot of name dropping here.
The consort of Perun who is basically Odin if we I'm trying
to compare so people can understand like how who they are
in the story. Perun is Odin, right?
The the leader you know. And actually Perun is also the

(26:39):
God of Thunder, which is the same thing.
So it's like. Real confusing.
Real. Yeah.
They're not too super far from each other and I imagine the
Vikings and came down a little bit.
I don't know, maybe it's around this time, maybe a little
earlier. I don't know.
I don't know time periods anymore, but time isn't real.

(27:00):
Well, but they basically battle underneath a huge oak tree and
Perun, the God of Thunder wins and casts him down into the
underworld. So this is like the origin story
of how he becomes the boss of the underworld.
You know, he goes, eh, you know,give me some mozzadella, you

(27:21):
know, And then he becomes mob boss of the underworld.
Makes sense This tracks. Yeah, sorry, I've been watching
The Sopranos and I'm kind of just, you know, getting into my
roots. Never seen it.
I got I still got to I got to watch it.
Never seen even 1. Well, it's just a lot of sex, a
lot of boobs, because he's always in a strip club.

(27:44):
Yeah. And then he's killing people.
Cool. And then he's in therapy.
So it's like that again, duality, you know, you see this
duality of him. Like you just watch him in
therapy and the next scene he's at a strip club and the next
he's having sex with some randomgirl that you just came on the
screen randomly. And then you're like, cool, this
is a he. Just does it over and over and

(28:05):
over again. Just a yeah, vicious circle.
And isn't that how we all live? That's life, baby.
I need to get out more. So did Bayless, so, right, So

(28:26):
you got Bayless with various different depictions across the
regions. I would imagine that these
depictions kind of got muddled up, mixed up, maybe altered from
being fairly uniform after Christianity came in and made
talk or, you know, any, any sortof representation, right?

(28:50):
Well, I mean, this is just what has happened, a million million
at one time, sadly, as Christians came in, did their
best to just slash and burn people's cultures, right?
And then use the ashes as fertilizer for their own mutated
versions of Christianity depending on the region.

(29:10):
So there might have been other gods would be my first take cuz
there might have been other gods.
And then overtime generationally, since people can
really talk with their neighborscuz they might get snitched on
and you know, reported to the tothe Christian police.
You know, these things get thesethings get mixed up overtime.
Like, families might call them Bayliss, but then at the same

(29:33):
time, nobody's openly talked about Bayliss and twenty, 30-40
years. And so they kind of, they become
these little niche stories and then all of a sudden it just
starts adapting and filling in roles everywhere.
And then before you know it, youhave the God of cats and missing
socks. Like at the end of the day, you
do. And are we are are you

(29:54):
presenting this right now as as it was this like the earliest
kind of depiction or concept of like a trickster God that that
there is that's on record? There at the there have been
through time. This is the earliest that I
could find as a with a lot of information.

(30:19):
I would say with enough information to put in part of an
episode, I guess is the way to say it.
A lot of them, again, like this is one of those that's passed
down through. A lot of them are just passed
down through stories and withouta lot of written evidence, it's
hard. Like you just said, it's hard to
not go well. Was this repurposed?

(30:41):
And they started as one thing, but then you start seeing them
rotated into different, like, you know, this one has like 7
different responsibilities is what I'll call the things.
Yes. They just get so many
responsibilities, tricks. That's why they get so tricky.
But it's the earliest I could find with decent enough

(31:02):
information to to understand like, OK, this is a a person.
Veyless did also even extend himself into today.
And just like Gil was talking about and he just feels like he
reads my scripts and then just goes, you know what?
He reads my mind because Veylesswas repurposed to be either got

(31:22):
repurposed to two different things, but to be either the
devil, which he kinda, it was a little bit of trickster ish,
which if we look in Christian iconography, most of the
trickster gods turn into the devil.
Christianity kind of goes, this is devilish behavior, right?
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's interesting

(31:45):
because Satan, or if we considerthe devil and Satan to be the
same Satan, that was actually a note I made earlier today.
Satan is like a famous trickster, matches tons of the
traits of this entity. Whatever, whatever this thing
is, this concept, that's Satan, baby.

(32:06):
So Veilis became the devil, OK. Yeah, what's crazy too is that
when Vladimir the Great brought Christianity to Russia, which is
not too far after the first written, you know, written
signing, it was, I think it was 971.
Let me make sure because 971 I was correct.

(32:27):
Vladimir the Great brought Christianity to Russia in 988.
He created and kind of mirrored Veilis with the idea of a St.
St. Vasily who was depicted in
Russian iconography surrounded by sheeps, cows and goats, which
is the he's a leader of the cattle, you know, of hunting and

(32:49):
protecting. So kind of like they took both
sides of it, you know, and we'relike, let's Christianity went,
OK, here's the good sides, let'stake that, and here's the bad
side. We're just going to slash them
and use them. Yeah, and that Christian Co
opting is just that's just conversion one O one that.

(33:09):
That was across. Every, yeah, every crusade,
yeah. Just like Co opt the hell out of
whatever the hell is there. Like anything that's deeply
rooted or could be kind of twisted.
And it's just like, yeah, we're just going to Co opt this and
it's going to be the Christianity's local flavor, you
know? Once you start reading into
that, it's just like this momentover and over again.

(33:32):
Like, are you fucking kidding me?
Seriously. Because it's so like once you
can see like, oh, this was the old version and then this is the
Christian version. It's like, oh, come, come on.
Like you couldn't even change the one that you couldn't change
it enough that I wouldn't recognize it.
Like, but you don't know that until you till you look, till
you look at it. Christ might be the greatest
trickster of all, That's all. I'm saying, man, I was just

(33:54):
about to say that it's true. To add to this, right?
So we use the phrase put someoneout to pasture, right.
You know, we're putting an animal, put a person out the
pasture. They're retiring or I don't
know, in the end of it, you're going to die.
I don't know. It's it's don't really use it as
going to die, but use it as you're retiring nowadays.

(34:17):
Well, yeah, Remember the idea that he was the protector of
cattle and protector and the hunter of cattle.
So in the Slavic and Baltic Russo area during that time, it
literally means somewhere you goafter death because when they
died, they went out to pasture, didn't say out to pasture.
It's like out to the fields. I picture it as, you know, in

(34:41):
Gladiator, that scene when Marcus Aurelius is dying and he
dreams of walking through the fields of grain and the pasture,
meeting his wife and kids again.That's kind of the idea that
this Valus would, would put forth is that you're going out
to pasture with the animals, which is like living and and
like, it's a beautiful afterlife.
Even though he was the God of the underworld, it wasn't like a

(35:02):
fiery brimstone underworld like we think of like Christianity
has brought to us. Well, OK.
Thank you for for lifting the valus on that.
Well, we're going to drop into our second trickster for today,

(35:23):
walking past Gill's nice little pun.
We're going to travel just a bitsouthwest to go down to the
continent of Africa, specifically in the country of
Ghana, where the trickster Ananzi originated.
Ananzi, the name itself. Yeah.
Yeah. Ananzi, the name itself was
derived from the akin. Akin.

(35:44):
I think it's akin word for spider.
I want to apologize for all of the things that I'm pronouncing
incorrectly. I've looked them up not as.
Anasasi, it's hard. The akin akin on, on, on, on
Nanzi. I think it's a Nanzi there.
I think it's an an an Ansanzi too.
That's there. There's different pronounced

(36:04):
pronunciations for all of these gods from different areas.
Poltergeist potato. It's the same thing.
Yeah, yeah. Go go with your gut, Joey.
Yeah, it's funny looking at all of these tricksters and then
like we talked about with the culture and how much they like
change over the different cultures, their names change the

(36:25):
tiniest of bits because you know, different languages of
course to in smaller regions. So you're just like, I don't
know what to call you. I'll call you what I saw you on
Google and the most that that came up the most in the Google
hit. So I feel like that's the the
best way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
So a Nazi Anansi yes. OK, OK, I was just reading.

(36:49):
I I assumed it was a she. I might be wrong but I was just
reading about this God and it's it's like a giant spider.
Giant spider, that's one of the ways it's it's it's depicted.
Why? Why have a God that's a spider?
Why choose that? It it's, I would say it's not

(37:12):
OK. So this is semantics, right?
So it's a Nazi in a lot of stories is not a God.
It's like AI would say more of aspirit.
It's like a in between and they they say it in, in a lot of the
stories, it's the in between between the gods and people.
And so it's like the mixture. It was like a messenger in a lot

(37:33):
of ways. It does God like things, which
is very interesting in some of the stuff I've read and some
obviously some of the stories cause it's a million different
little culture, little regions around there having tiny bit
different stories. Some of them had it as a God,
some of them, most of them had it as just like a messenger
between, even though it was likea spider, you know?

(37:55):
Right, right. OK.
But it was between like the God,this level between the gods and
then humanity, like like an Angel or the jinn.
Yeah, if you've ever read the Cimarillion, it's getting real
nerdy here. There's the top, which is the
why can't I remember the name? Man Way.

(38:15):
And the Man Way is basically thetop of it.
And then you go down and right beneath that is the Mayor, which
is like Gandalf, Saruman and stuff like that.
So like the second level, they're the Istar, which is the
Wizards. The second level of it, they're,
you know, kind of there. So that's what I would say.
Ananzi is like a second level, like you said, the gin like

(38:37):
right below the angels. It's kind of what Ananzi is.
Some like Caboz had just said, some stories depict Ananzi as a
spider. The spider in this term has a
human face, which is just like, oh, I don't like that that.
Just makes it weirder. Some of them have them with a

(38:58):
human, like just as a human normal with eight legs.
So like some of the depictions of them have 8 legs and it's
just like what is that? Or like it didn't explain and it
didn't show pictures if the legswere human legs, IF8 legs or if
there were spiders of eight legs.
You know what I mean? Like spider spindly legs.

(39:19):
Or if it was human legs and it just looked really, really wack
and crazy. That was an Angel.
They all looked crazy. The creepiest of them?
Biblically correct angels are more, not any better.
Well, one of the stories associated with the nonzi, and
probably perhaps the most well known story is a story that a

(39:42):
nonzi itself allowed us to have.This makes sense a little later.
That sounds weird. PR team.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they're good marketers.
So before time, the distant way,back in the day, there were no
stories, right? This is a interesting concept.

(40:04):
Yeah, this is the concept. OK, we're we're dealing with the
concept of that. You were stating a matter of
fact. I was like, what?
Mind blown. It's like the it's like the if
the tree falls in the forest as as if anyone's there on to hear
it. No stories if you can't tell
them which. Makes sense?
All the stories at the time wereowned by the sky God Naomi

(40:28):
Ananze Jonesing. I added that word in myself for
some stories. Decided to try and buy the
stories from Naomi, but Naomi laughed.
Naomi is the sky God for the Akon people.
Basically like the big cheese. You know the big over over top,
the Odin so to speak of everybody here.

(40:50):
Mm hmm. Well Nanze said he would pay
anything. So now I'm a kind of joking gave
Ananze for near impossible tasks, right.
And so this is also kind of likeother stories as well.
They have many impossible tasks,kind of like all the what I say,

(41:12):
all the old like Brothers Grimm stories back in the day too.
You have all these tasks you have to do well.
Nancy would have to catch four of the most dangerous creatures
in the world. The Onini, the Python, don't
know if I said that correctly. Mamboro Hornets.
And if you know Hornets, impossible to catch Osebo the

(41:34):
leopard and the fairy Mimotia. So a lot of sorry again, a lot
of hard words. Anansi agreed but the Naomi made
another demand. Anonse would have to bring his
mother Yanisia with with him to do this.
Just like wow cool bring your mom you're not cool enough

(41:56):
you're not good enough. So Anonse did what any other
good person would do and asked his wife to come along too and
help. Let's make this longer story
shorter cuz it is a very long story and I don't want to go
through all of it here. Ananze used trickery and guile
to capture each of the four creatures and brought them back

(42:18):
to Naomi. And then Naomi said, well you
did that so I can't say no. Was laughing about it basically
like I just, I didn't even believe you're going to do that.
Here's the stories. And now the theory behind it is
that now we can all enjoy all ofthe stories and that is one of
the miss the folklore behind Ananze.

(42:39):
OK. OK, so Ananzi is considered like
kind of like a trickster entity because of the way that they
attack their their assignments like their what they were
supposed to their tasks. Oh, OK, OK.
Yeah. So the task basically was like

(43:00):
would go to the to the Hornets and was like, hey, Hornets, it's
it's about to rain. And they were all out, you know,
flying around as Hornets do, attacking people and was like,
hey, this is about to rain. I got a place for you guys to
go. Like you can come.
I have this little thing said like a pot.
It was some kind of pot and was like, you guys can stay in here,
like in this pot until it finishes raining and hurry.

(43:22):
Yeah, they're like, oh God, it'sgoing to rain.
And so they got in there. He's like, gotcha.
You know, like his wife's just in the background with tinfoil
like whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, The best team
ever. Yeah, real power couple adding

(43:43):
into this because this started in Ghana, right?
And this started in that area ofthe world once the African slave
trade pretty much started to wreak havoc on the tribes in
that area. They used some of the tales as a
nonzi to develop their own ideals.
And this is exactly what Gil wassaying earlier with resistance,
because so many people were being taken as slaves that

(44:04):
allowed them a blueprint for theidea of resistance.
And Gil just, you know, threw, threw, threw it out there 'cause
he's a, he's a genius with this,with knowing how this script is
written. Which then leads Ananze to the
aforementioned idea that Ananze is an outlaw, which I'm coming
back to because I just bring allthese trickster gods back to be

(44:25):
an outlaws. Ananze allowed African American
people who were taken as slaves to dream of turning the tables
on their oppressors by using cunning and trickery the same
way that Ananze did in the the four trials.
Even if some of the physical part of revolting didn't always
happen, it did happen as well and they used those.

(44:47):
I think it gave them sort of an other world to go to just to get
by as well. It wasn't just a physical, it
was also a mental part of tricksters that allowed them to
use it. They would also use it as real
life applications to understand their behavior.
Basically using behaviors to to start to get like, what is it

(45:08):
called to gain the upper hand inthe plantation power structure?
And I didn't make that up. That was actually written about
in a book. Try to find the actual person
who wrote that. I'm not smart enough to think of
that, but it's true. Sorry, this was written by

(45:29):
Nevermind. What am I doing A.
Guy. A guy a a really smart guy.
Dude, yeah. I'll I'll list it.
This be a Nazi? Yeah.
Nazi's PR team this is. So this this brings up.

(45:50):
You kind of just touched on a point in a general sense that I
had written down here, somethingthat I did want to kind of talk
over a little bit like tricksters, trickster entities,
trickster spirits, guns, what have you.

(46:10):
But there there's a handful of things that they kind of like
universally can get applied to them where it's like there's a a
few outliers where it's like this trickster entity over here
doesn't have that or isn't knownfor that.
But for the most part, there is like, I would say like a good 70
to 85% like fitting description for most tricksters across

(46:32):
cultures, centuries and just like experiences, human
experience, right? Like it feels like everybody
everywhere, no matter how connected they are, kind of all
settle on these same 7580% of similarities when it comes to
tricksters. One of those, one of those
things, one of those hallmarks is being a shapeshifter that

(46:55):
just across the board, right? Sometimes the shape shifters,
they the essence with the powersthat they have, right, The
abilities, it can be full on like, you know, they can shape
shift into anything that can sound like anyone that can
imitate anything. It's just complete copy and
paste of whatever they're tryingto to imitate or become.

(47:19):
Other times it'll be tricksters where they can transform into,
you know, birds and frogs specifically, you know, but
generally speaking, shape shifter is a thing.
And I think that it's, it's fascinating too, because going
back to the cultural level, right, in terms of how societies
adopt in times of need, right? Tricksters, right?

(47:44):
In terms of we're going to take a different lesson from that.
We're going to stop fearing it and we're going to start
embracing certain qualities, right tricksters themselves as
entities. They shape shift within
society's eyes. And it's so fucking fascinating
to see that right where it's like you have this external

(48:05):
entity, but the actual lessons go from we should fear them to
we should use them to impose fear on our enemies.
Hey, the trick and like how theyYeah.
And it's it's. What?
What it is they? Literally they shape shift their

(48:27):
own status, right, which is so fucking fascinating to me
because we there's this concept of like it is external, it is
real. It is, you know, living,
breathing, walking, transitioning through
dimensions, what have you, But also as as I don't know, an
ideology as a belief system, right?

(48:49):
It just everything just kind of like shifts with them.
And it's, I fucking love that because literally it went from
being like, hey, it's a part of the creation story and it's a
part of this and it's it's bad and it's not, you know, we
should kind of be worried about it to being like, this is how
we're going to oppose the slave trade, right?

(49:10):
And fucking love that. Tricksters are so fucking cool
man. I love, I love that ability as
well. I've said that before talking
about tricksters in the past that it's like it when when you
were talking about it in regardsto an entity, some something
that is real in an entity, not aconcept, not an ideology.

(49:31):
This entity, it doesn't seem to have a form, a face, a name.
And I have said this before too.It becomes what you need to see
it, it, it shows itself to you in the way that you are going to
be able to see it. And that has a lot to do with
the person and the perceiver as well.

(49:54):
But you know, just this idea that maybe maybe it doesn't,
maybe it doesn't have like, likewe can't, I can't describe to
you what, what 1 looks like because it's, it's it, its, its
whole existence is shape shifting.
I don't know, like it's, it's bopped from 1, you know,
fairies, aliens, Bigfoot, like on, you know, on and on and on

(50:16):
and down the line used to be gods like down the line.
Like is it? I don't know, is it like a
concept, a concept that has become something that's real,
but it doesn't have a body to call home.
That's where my brain went. That's an interesting, that's an
interesting thought. It ties into much bigger theory,

(50:37):
but yeah, that fascinates me that something that could very
much. What's the I'm drawing a blank
here? This just came up in a recent
interview that you did. It's not an Agricore, it's a
tulpa. Tulpa.

(50:58):
Yeah. Tulpas, so are they, you know,
if we want to go the route of defending tricksters existing
and not just being a tool, not just capital J on just being a
tool of social expression and existence and explanation,
right, but actual entities, right.
And in our understanding of it has a conscious and that's kind

(51:19):
of where it ends with being ableto describe them.
You know, are they are they Tolpas?
Are they regional Tolpas, right.And atopa being a thought form.
I I just realized I never explained that to folks.
Sorry. Atopa being more or less enough
of a an emotional and mental commitment by humans, or I guess

(51:45):
I've never heard it applied to other animals, but by humans
that bring something manifests an actual conscious entity into
existence. And it's it's a thought form.
It's a thing that's been createdstrictly because of people's
beliefs, right? Almost kind of like how we value
money. If anything, it's kind of a

(52:07):
really messed up that's a. Very abstracted but simple
groupthink. So so groupthink is going to
create your aggregor. Thank you.
The the single person is going to create the tulpa or servitor.
But The thing is, like I after my recent talk with Dave Zilla,
who who's he's a practicing witch and he's also very much

(52:27):
into AI and he created his own Aggregor with the help of AI.
Like I do believe these to be very real, like thinking of
being into being into reality. I think they are real.
And that's interesting. You picked out Tulpa
specifically because out of all of the thought forms tulpa is
going to be, the more the the more likely out of all of them

(52:50):
to kind of separate from its creator and become its own
thing. Thinking for itself, making
decisions for itself and causingsome havoc, causing some chaos.
Which is interesting. Could be.
Was it the first person on earthand they got lonely so they made
themselves a friend and the trickster's been here ever

(53:12):
since. Could be.
We went so deep you guys, I love.
It. Well, adding into a lot of that,
and I think taking it from the physical realm to more of the
cultural realm, for which, you know, I did a lot of the study
into the cultural realm and the idea that most of the African

(53:36):
tribes created their trickster God as animals.
You know, and if you look at Europe's trickster gods, they're
most in general human being like, you know, human being with
like Loki, who had the other, who's the Hermes?
Hermes is Brea. Travel or something?

(53:58):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're, but they're
all very human like and a lot ofthe African tribes have a lot of
animals, you know, and from stuff that I've read, just the
idea behind the tricksters feeling like they're part of the
people that they come from and that they're like against some
sort of. I think a lot of this move

(54:21):
towards it more when the slave trade happened is that the
animals became more parts of their lives because again, like
we talked about their resistanceand that these animals were
became very cunning and very like smart, very clever on ways
to like fight in different ways.And then with with, you know,
the Europeans, they're just like, oh, what?

(54:42):
They're humans. They're just like us.
We're over top. And they're more of like in, I
don't know, trying to explain this idea that I was having that
a lot of Europeans don't have, that we use, I guess, the human
as a archetype. Comparatively, Native Americans
also use a lot more animals as well as in their spirits.

(55:04):
And there's too. So I was just wondering if there
there could be some kind of connection between those two?
I think that comes with the general bastardization that
comes with Christianity as a whole.
So 1 of Christianity's early tenants, like it's it's very
early foundational tenants is toseparate people as much as

(55:27):
possible from nature and to get humans to see themselves as
separate from the animal Kingdom, right?
Like that's like standard, like you are unique, you are blah,
blah, blah. I mean, go back to the Bible and
it's like God gave man dominion over all things, right?
And separating, separating out the human from the animal, where

(55:52):
most of the world, I would say most of the same world, never
saw ourselves as separate from animals.
Yes, we fit in with them and we have our own little, our own
little fancy dance and communication.
But at the same time, like we recognize ourselves as like we
eat, sleep, fucking shit, you know, like this is we are the

(56:13):
same as every other living thingthat we can see.
And we're all inherently connected to one another, which
so when you get into like battling paganism, very broad
stance, right? When you get into battling
paganism, you have to differentiate yourself, right?

(56:35):
When it comes to that literal war that was taking place,
right? And one of those things is to
say, no, no, no, I'm human. I'm better than all this other
shit. I own all this other shit.
I have rights to all this other shit.
I can do whatever the hell I want to it, which justifies a
whole host of atrocities for thousands of years.

(56:57):
But that was a part of the weaponization of the Christian
doctrine as a whole. So I mean, to kind of get back a
little bit to what you were saying at the beginning of your
thoughts, Joey, you know, the, the Christian Bible is full of
examples. Sorry, I'm forgetting some, but
I, I hope folks that are in the chat who paid more attention in

(57:19):
Sunday school than I did can bring them up.
But it's full of examples of angels working as tricksters,
right? Like a, that is a literal thing.
That is a literal thing is like,oh, they went up and they did
this and they tried to convince him of this and they da da, da,
da and this and that and the other.
And then for like kind of the big moves on things, it's, it's

(57:41):
Satan, it's the devil, it's the fallen Angel, it's Lucifer
popping up. That's he, he's making the big
moves, you know, But there's angels popping and there's like,
look at the story of Job, for instance, right.
Like within Christianity where the devil's like, oh, look at
that guy over there. He's real into it.
But his life's been so fucking easy.
I bet he would give up on you ifhe made it hard.

(58:03):
God fell for a trickster. God thought he's just started
torturing Job and doing the worst possible things to him.
He's like, yeah, see, he still believes me in the Satan's.
Like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It kind of seems like he's
slipping and he's just like, well, that fucking kills kids.
And he seems like, Oh my God, you actually did that.
I mean, you, Oh my, you, you actually did that.

(58:25):
Like that's some classic trickster shit.
Like you are, you are outsmarting the Almighty, which
is something that tricksters do in all these creation stories
are a lot of them where it's like you have Loki outsmarting,
you know, like Odin and shit andlike coming in just being like,
aha, you're the wisest. Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.

(58:45):
And like tricks them. Oh my God, it is.
Classic in in Christian like people who like who who really
get into the theology and like the history of Christianity and
the history of the devil versus Satan versus Lucifer or
whatever. Like a a Satan, a Satan was it
was an Angel being used as a tool by God, right to be put

(59:09):
into positions to challenge his believers to to put them in
positions to have to choose likeabsolutely like ultimate
trickster. I love that you went there.
You know, you know when, when, when God was like freaking
torturing Job, Satan was just looking.
I'm like, damn, did he do that? Did he make him do I?

(59:31):
Wouldn't even do that. That's shitty.
That's pretty shitty. That's pretty.
Old Did he just put raisins in the tuna salad?
G Oh God. Instead of grapes.
What is going on here? You guys ready for the good
news? Yeah.

(59:51):
So. Yeah, Anansi still is a
trickster got today and Hoodoo and they use it.
They use them as like help Ananze Ananze.
You can beckon Ananze to help you become a better storyteller.
You can become a better performing artist, stand up
comedian, writer, producer, any kind of performance artist,

(01:00:14):
musician. Cow.
All for the small fee and tell me if this sounds familiar.
Gil and Kristen for treats, liquor, cigarettes or even just
some stories, songs or jokes. Just like our little buddy down
in a Pumbero, South America. Yeah, see.

(01:00:36):
Damn it, Pumbero, you get arounda.
Nazi has Pumbero also. I need more a Nazi in my life.
Yeah, just bring out some treats, liquor, like some
smokes, pretty much just literally a Nazi's, just like
quick Kristen smokes, smokes. I got you a Nazi slash El pom

(01:00:57):
baro. Honestly, my front porch
constantly. I'm just trying to summon every
goddamn entity that's out there because like I constantly, you
know, I, I don't sleep that much.
I'll be up till 3:00 in the morning.
I'm drinking a beer. I'm lazy.
I'll just like leave half a beeron my front porch with like a
bunch of cigarette butts. Pretty much just like asking for
it, you know it's. Basically how you summon fairies

(01:01:19):
as well. And El Pom Baro and the Nazi
and, you know, just. And all just all of them, just.
Lonely. Well, fairies.
In general, they're. Tricksters, right?
Fairies. Themselves are tricksters.
Yes, yes they are. Absolutely, 100% yeah.
And. They lived a trick.

(01:01:40):
They're such. Little shits.
Sorry, I didn't know such cutie pies.
There's something. I'm glad I'm taking this and I'm
running with it. You brought up fairies something
it's tricksters are fascinating.Just I know I've said that
40,000 times and we're an hour and a half or whatever into this

(01:02:02):
episode hour and 5 minutes into this episode.
But you know something that fairies are known for that so
many other tricksters are known for, including a bone barrel is
Why did you say Gil has bears? I do have bears the the bear

(01:02:24):
that lives next to me. His name is Luffy.
Seeing the videos. Yeah, I think barely, but, but
barely keeping it together, no. So it's Tricksters, along with
being able to shapeshift, also have a notorious reputation for

(01:02:45):
warping people's perception, right.
Their perception of specificallytheir perception of time.
So making things feel very, very, very fast, making things
feel very, very, very slow. Or it feels like, you know, it
only took 10 seconds, but actually you were gone for five
hours or you were gone for five hours, but it felt like 10

(01:03:07):
years, Right. Yeah this is.
It's such a classic effect of tricksters and fairies are known
for this, specifically of doing shit like this to you.
People with their encounters with Bigfoot have experienced
similar shit. 100% El Pombero does this exact same shit

(01:03:28):
entirely and probably most famously, at least in my mind,
aliens. Aliens do this shit like a
motherfucker. They love to shit on time, they
love to screw people's perception of time.
Even the argument about aliens existing plays a role of can we
travel faster than light? Like even the argument around

(01:03:50):
their legitimacy comes down to our perception of time and
arguing with it. Which the best argument about
aliens being able to visit is that they're able to bend time
and space and travel here. Yes, this is just a modern
argument for a trickster. And I'm not saying it's not
legitimate. I want to clarify that because

(01:04:11):
it's really easy when we externalize things away from our
our general English speaking culture, which I'm assuming most
folks listening to this are a part of the English speaking
culture, right? It's really easy to externalize
things as far away in the past or foreign.
And we kind of like label it as goofy and strange, but we're not
coming with the subtleties of being raised within the culture,

(01:04:33):
right? We're hearing three paragraph
highlights. We don't understand how
significant it is. And it's the same way that
anybody hearing about aliens mocks and laughs at the concept
of aliens. And they're like, Oh yeah,
that's stupid. I can't believe you believe in
that. It's because they actually
haven't taken time to dig into it and recognize that
legitimacy, right? Or at least the potential

(01:04:54):
legitimacy. But for this audience, for these
audiences, I should say, all of our arguments, our most advanced
arguments, the ones that are being presented to Congress
right now, are based around trickster mythology.

(01:05:17):
It's literally the bending of perception of time and space
that goes with it. It's shape shifting down to the
actual craft itself. It's being able to imitate
things, appeared in certain areas even.
And this is what's so fucking great, something tricksters are

(01:05:38):
known for throughout time. And you know, it's in that 7580%
of all of them bracket is advancing society by pushing, by
pushing norms, thoughts and impressions and concepts around
trying to understand UFO technology.

(01:05:59):
It literally pushes our understanding of science and
what we research and try to develop. 100 fucking percent.
We are, we are no different thanfolks who, you know, look at the
Anassi or or look at the Valles or whatever.
We, we are no fucking different.And I think that that is so
important to kind of slap ourselves.

(01:06:19):
At least that's what I try to dowhen it comes to like El Pom
Baro and other things where it'slike, I don't wanna get up on my
high horse and be like, well, it's like, no, I don't have the
intricate knowledge. I'm not on that social level.
And this is the same shit. It's everywhere.
It's fucking everywhere. I don't know, that's my rant on
that subject, but it's. That was awesome.
I loved everywhere we went with that.

(01:06:41):
That's so fucking cool. Yeah, yes.
And that's that. That goes along with kind of how
how I have been thinking about it.
And I think I think you and I probably arrived at the same
place, but coming from differentends.
Like I wasn't introduced to the trickster concept until my my
season on UFOs and aliens and talking to somebody about

(01:07:04):
abduction and they introduced this to me.
I was like, what does that mean?You like aliens are like this
trickster entity. What does that mean?
And just going from there, realizing that all these
subjects passed, all of these paranormal entities that I have
talked about and never thought the wiser.
They match, they match, they match.
Especially ones that go back in time like fairies.

(01:07:26):
That hooked me because that takes the concept of aliens and
UFOs and it gives it historical depth.
I, I can't see a difference between the stories of fairies
and their abductions and their bending of time and their
abilities and what is taking place in modern day abduction
accounts. I do not see the difference
anymore. I think they are the same thing.

(01:07:48):
So and then being able to movingforward tie that into Bigfoot
accounts and like Bigfoot, yeah,it's, it's split down the middle
between your, your flesh and blood apers and then the woo.
But the woo side, when you look at the woo stories time and time
and time again, it is matching the pattern.
It fits with the same pattern that aliens fit that with the

(01:08:11):
same pattern that fairies fit ofthese, these trickster behaviors
and traits. So that's how I came to it.
I, I came from it from the history point, like I just found
that that sucked me. And I was like, there's
something here, There's something here that can explain.
Let the. It's the tie that binds.
What if fairy rings are just landing spots?

(01:08:33):
Anyways, sorry, I just wanted to.
I love this happiness that thesethese connections are coming you
guys. Honestly, nerds.
No, I love it. The shit's fascinating, like.
It is. It is.
I'm taking it Joey. Another thing too tricksters are
also really fucking notorious. They're in that that eight

(01:08:56):
tenths 9/10 I I forget where I'mat with my percentage examples
here, but the the majority of tricksters are also advocates,
proponents and violent defenders.
Sometimes of nature. Basically, you disrespect nature
will disrespect you. That's a constant thing.
What did every single UFO abductee come back and say with

(01:09:22):
their messages about what alienswere trying to tell them?
Seriously go find a single fucking abductee anywhere and
ask them it's y'all are going tofuck up with nuclear weapons.
Stop harming the planet, you're poisoning everything.
Y'all need to chill the fuck out.
We're trying to have peace here.Respect the Earth like it's the

(01:09:44):
same shit. It is the same shit down to
another trickster classic which is fucking up travellers,
misdirecting travellers, people getting abducted out of their
cars, people getting abducted oncamping trips, people getting
abducted on trip. It's the exact same thing 100%.

(01:10:06):
There is no difference between somebody out there on a wagon
who gets fooled by a ferry or some shit, or on a horse that
gets fooled by a ferry or some shit versus a semi truck driver
on a on a road in the middle of the night who just all of a
sudden is like what the hell just happened and only remembers
a bright light. There is no difference between
these two experiences. For the human right it's and a

(01:10:30):
lot of times they come back saying the same shit.
Hey, we should really stop fucking things up over and over
again. I'd just like to interject real
quick and just give a shout out to our sponsor, Kwazga's
shutters and Blinds. If you don't want us to abduct
you, just shut your blinds and. I feel official slogan.

(01:10:54):
Sometimes you need blinds. That's all that's that's it.
Keep going, keep going. Congratulations on on your
sponsor guys. Yeah, thank you.
They've been with us since episode 10, Episode 11.
Until the AI pass. I'm sorry.
Yeah, Yeah, that's right. You know, I was just reading the

(01:11:14):
last Trickster God, wondering ifI should go into it or if we
should just go ahead into our talking points because you guys
are crushing it already. Should I go ahead?
I think. Wait, I don't know.
I've been covering my talking points throughout, so OK however
you guys want to swing it I. Think.
I think you should save it and Ithink we should hover it in the
behind the scenes and. Post it.

(01:11:35):
There we go, it sounds. Good.
Various patreons. What?
Y'all expected a full episode? Guess what?
It's a trickster episode. You were never gonna get it.
But also guess what? Guess what?
You heard Patreon. You thought you had to pay.
You know, we all have free membership opportunities, and we
got the links in our show notes.Thank you very much.

(01:11:58):
So we just want a better way to communicate because if you've
made it this far in the episode,you obviously care for our
rambling. Either you're rage listening,
pleasure listening or pleasure rage listening.
If it's anything else, I don't want to hear what you're doing.
Yeah, so obviously you give a fuck.
And we'd love for you to give a fuck on a regular basis by

(01:12:21):
staying connected to us at our various patrons.
Paranorm girl, find her on Patreon.
Black Airport, find us on Patreon.
It's all there. But Speaking of that Long ranch,
you know what I would like to dowith it?
Another thing, tricksters are known for invisibility.
All right? We haven't even touched on that
shit. Yeah, tricksters aren't.

(01:12:42):
They cannot just shape shift andbecome anything that they want.
They can also completely become invisible like aliens.
This is Bigfoot right across theboard.
Damn, you just delivered that with some eyes like you saw,
like you seemed. It I've been ready to fight for

(01:13:03):
Bigfoot this. Whole unseen, Ted.
Nobody's fighting you. No Bigfoot.
Why do you think Bigfoot is encrypted?
Or is it not encrypted and is more of a trickster?
Why do you? Think Well, I think they just.
Lay it on me, lay it on. Us the concept of Bigfoot
itself, it is encrypted. It is encrypted yeah.
I am not saying one side or the other is I will say that the ape

(01:13:25):
only side they do have a shit ton of proof.
They have so much proof, more than enough proof, a mountain.
But I've spoken to some or an erotica novel.
I, I, I've spoken to enough people on the other side of the
aisle and listen to their stories and listen to what drew

(01:13:46):
me. What draws me into that side is
the pattern and that it's consistent across the board.
And so I, I, you know, I'm not going to be close minded to
that. I still need to dig even further
into it. I am open to it.
Yeah. I'm not necessarily on the side
that it is absolutely this trickster thing.
But I do want to keep pushing itout there, putting it out there

(01:14:08):
into the universe that, you know, look at this, look at
this. It matches.
It matches. It belongs here.
That's all. Yeah.
So if I can add this to maybe what you both are kind of
putting forth in this cause GAILis, is real staunch and adding
into this that hey, maybe aliensare tricksters, you know, maybe

(01:14:32):
tricksters are aliens. Maybe it's a mixture, you know,
maybe go ahead. You can correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not wrong. Cool.
I'll keep going. And Kristen, you're, you're
talking about how, you know, cryptids and or or at least
Bigfoot in this other area, which in some people say flesh

(01:14:53):
and blood, some people say it could be an idea more than
anything, a trickster that maybethese tricksters are from.
Can I posit this to go a little deeper?
Are from another realm of existence, you know, and they
talk about angels being that youknow, and that may be another

(01:15:13):
dimension that we don't know of.Absolutely, yeah.
Because they obviously they, they don't abide by that's,
that's the main distinction between us and them is while
they they can be physical and exist in this physical
dimension, they don't always, they don't abide by the same

(01:15:35):
rules. So yeah, I, I, I think it's, you
know, suffice it to say, I thinkthey are in from another
dimension, another place, something.
Well into into my thoughts behind it.
I wonder like where where I I think of it and the idea of how
I come through tricksters. Is it is it a physical being?

(01:15:59):
You know cuz we always ask this too.
It's like, and, and with different cultures and just
studying the different, the different trickster gods and
goddesses and spirits in the different cultures is that in
some cultures it seems like there is a physical being in
presence. You know, with, with with the

(01:16:20):
indigenous. They talk about the coyote being
that and a coyote is a physical being, just like Gil talking
about it earlier. Did the is the, you know,
chicken or the egg? Was the coyote just the, you
know, just the exact descriptionof the trickster God or did the
trickster God inhabit the coyoteto give it those, those
characteristics? And that's kind of how I think

(01:16:42):
of it. Or is it just like, you know,
with, I guess I, you know, in Norse mythology, they actually
thought they were real. They they thought that the gods
were up on, you know, looking down on them.
One quick, easy note here. Wiley Coyote, right?
Wiley Coyote, what's completely made-up is a caricature, right?

(01:17:05):
Has a whole set of history, has a whole set of stories.
Culturally, pretty, pretty well understood.
I would say like 7 out of 10 folks are going to describe
Wiley Coyote the exact same way If you're talking to anybody in
North America, right? Anybody that's been raised in
North America, they're going to explain Wiley Coyote the same
way based off of loosely literalfucking coyotes.

(01:17:30):
So take this, however, just because Wiley Coyote if, if
coyotes went extinct and human history got wiped out, at least
the long memory of it and the bones were all destroyed and
they're like, oh, they had this character and look at the
depictions of him and da da, da,da, da.
And this is how most folks described him over here.
Some folks described him over here.

(01:17:51):
There might be an argument for whether or not Wiley, you know,
coyotes were real basically because they were like, well,
no, look at obviously, like, youknow, he was in these fights
with their brother. There's no there's no possible
way there was an animal throwingdynamite like this is insane.
You know, like, so we have to look at history, especially when

(01:18:11):
you're getting back into like 900 something AD right where
it's just like you started off by saying, yeah, I could barely
find shit on them. Yeah, we don't have shit on
them. But there were people getting
together to sign Underoath with their name.
This was culturally understood, culturally relevant in that way.
It was that was significant across different regions, right.

(01:18:36):
But it begs the question, so Wiley Coyote is not literally
real, just a, a symbology of representation of caricature,
right? Coyotes are real.
The cultural memory is real, right?
That culture memory can get faded and changes on person to
person. What does that mean for gods

(01:19:01):
just in general, right? So does that mean that again,
which came first, the chicken orthe egg?
I think that that has a lot to do with just our place in time
and realization because we're able to at this point in
history, in 2000 years, I don't think we will be able to at this
point in history, we're able to say coyotes existed before Wiley

(01:19:24):
Coyote. Right.
But in 2000 years, people might look back and be like, I don't
know, it's still debated on whether or not there was a wild
canine running around. Like they might literally say
that. And just how we look at like,
you know, this crazy bird Dragons that or you know, the
spiders with human arms and legsand shit like that.

(01:19:47):
Like these. We have to look at it the same
fucking way. I don't know.
I just don't think humans have gotten any smarter or Dumber
throughout history. I think we've pretty much
coasted on the same level of stupidity.
Which which goes to show in the fact that we have to keep
relearning the same historical lessons like in the 1930s.

(01:20:09):
But now in America, that's it's,it's a different story.
I I think, yeah. But it's this is hard to fucking
it's tricksters, man. Tricksters are fucking
tricksters all the way around because they're they're
inherent. Nature says you can't prove me,
bitch, but everybody talks aboutme like you ain't got a photo of

(01:20:34):
me, but everybody can describe me.
You don't know what I can do, but everyone knows what I've
done and it's just like God damnTrickster.
I have no name, but everyone hasa name for me.
It's just like, stop it. Stop it over everything about
it. This, this came up with El Pom

(01:20:55):
Baro where it's like it drove mefucking insane again.
Please folks, anybody near to me, anybody that loves me, reach
out to me. I'm in need of help.
Don't let me look into tricksters again because I go
insane. I'm too literal of a person when
it comes to research and I had to literally flip to fucking
tabloids to the sensational clickbait articles in order to

(01:21:18):
research tricksters because in the true trickster fashion, the
most illegitimate thing was the most legitimate thing.
And like, which was like a five days after the episode was
supposed to be released. I'm like, I understand what I
should do now because the historical records fucking
sucked and they all disagreed with each other.

(01:21:39):
Slash. The sources weren't reliable
because it was a bunch of fucking Christians coming in and
being like, I don't know, Craig said it was Brown.
Whatever. Anyways, we killed him.
Like it was all bullshit. You know, it was hard to.
I was like, I don't want to listen to this guy.
He killed Craig. I love Craig.
So the. Best.
But to in order to get this understanding of something that

(01:22:00):
everybody knows about but isn't well documented, I had to go
into click bait articles, which are great for having one very
strong quote that they just expand upon afterwards.
And there's a bunch of bullshit added to it.
And that was the only way I could get direct quotes from
folks within this culture, within the society where folks

(01:22:23):
experience, live with and understand El Pombero.
And I was like, you fuck El Pombero, you son of a bitch.
The trust the worst thing in order to find the most legit
evidence, which is the brilliance of tricksters, right?
Just as a as a goddamn whole. And this comes down, this comes
back to to throw it back to Chris, this comes back to

(01:22:44):
Bigfoot. Every Bigfoot, every Bigfoot
nerd, bigfooter, if you will, loves good casting of a
Bigfootprint. Yes, every every one of them
does every this is, you know, safe to say universal, yet

(01:23:07):
they're interdimensional right yet they're they're shifting
between dimensions, but they're living in physical traces.
This goes back to the trickster,you know, just existence where
it's just like the even within the culture, it's this desperate
need to show physical evidence while acknowledging this extra

(01:23:28):
temporal type of like existence around things where she's like
we've got the footprints we you know everybody sends off hair
samples, but you never really hear about them afterwards.
But but there's always this fight for for the physical, but
complete lack of physical at thesame time.

(01:23:48):
Well, that, and that's where you're, yeah, you run in your,
into your dividing line there. And that just goes back into
people desperately trying to conceptualize things and stick
them into a box so that I can understand it with my stupid
human brain. And that's where you run into
the line that divides like, you know, the the footprints,
they're awesome. The people that are on that

(01:24:10):
eight only side. It is a physical creature, duh.
It is a physical creature. It's totally it's it's an
undiscovered 8. It's a descendant of what's the
word Gigantopithecus? I don't know.
It's a little harder to explain that physical footprint if
you're on the other on on the woo side, just that they're

(01:24:31):
physical while they're here. They abide by our rules while
they're here. It's.
Fun to think about, right? On our reality while they're
here. Yep, Yep, they.
Shout it and dip the fuck out real quick.
You know it's you know, in the same way I could say the word
lion. But what is a lion symbolize?

(01:24:56):
A lion. Royalty, Royalty.
Nobility just. Wisdom.
Yeah, respect as long for the upper class.
Purridge strength, right? Yeah, strength, Things like
that. These are completely understood.
Lions still exist. And just because we have this
shared, agreed upon like symbology behind it doesn't mean

(01:25:17):
that lions don't exist. The same way that we have a
shared understanding of a cartoon doesn't mean coyotes
don't exist, you know? And tricksters play this exact
spot, which is so perfect for them.
There's that thing that's alwaysgoing to get away but be right
in front of you, you know? Skirts, motherfuckers.

(01:25:37):
I love them so much. I think I'd get a tattoo of
Trickster, but I don't know whatto get I.
Think El Pombero for sure. I think the idea.
A large mole. You need to go to a
dermatologist. It is that a tattoo of two
partially deflated basketball and basketball stuffed.

(01:25:58):
Into each other. Black pillow case.
Why yes, it is. Yes, it is.
You know, you know me. I always think of the idea of
like, and when we talk about thephysical, just like with Bigfoot
and like if we talk about tricksters in general and that
the cultural part of it is that I would love so much.

(01:26:18):
And I think a lot of people would love to go back into that
like time period with that culture and be like, do you, is
this a physical thing in your life every day?
And for some of it, I imagine they'll say it mattered to us.
It might not be physical, but itmight just be just as real
because of the way that these stories or the way that these

(01:26:41):
things affect how we live our lives every day.
You know, like you talked about pushing up against the
boundaries of life and dependingon which culture, which area of
the world, some of them have different ways of how they view
their tricksters. Like we talked about, I'm trying
not to talk about the indigenouspeoples one, because we'll talk
about that in the the behind thescenes.

(01:27:03):
But exactly. So there's your note to follow
us to get the behind the scenes too.
But talking about like Veylis and that it was more of like not
really bad, but it still wasn't looked on as good.
You know, Veylis wasn't like a great theme.
But then we talked about like Ananzi, you know, Ananzi.

(01:27:27):
And Ananzi was like became like almost like a champion of the
people, you know, and that it was also part of it.
So I think it just changed how tricksters are viewed as how
real they are is where who's viewing them.
And just like you guys talked about your tulpas is the same
idea is that if you view them more as real, you can create

(01:27:49):
that identity into reality, but if you view it as less real, it
goes away. I mean, it's just the idea of
freaking, you know, believe in me, believe in me.
You know, like Tinkerbell, when you're trying to believe in
Tinkerbell, to believe in her, you got it.
To keep her real, you got to believe in her.
You know, Santa Claus, you know,if you watch elf, you know, that
believability to get him to fly.So it's like I think of that

(01:28:10):
idea is it just depends on the culture, how real life it is,
you know, and putting it into animals makes it even more real
because then because we don't really know what animals are
thinking in general, nobody has come up with the moment of
animal translator. So being able to translate what

(01:28:32):
an animal not yet, but getting there about what an animal's
thinking so you can inject what your thoughts are onto that
animal or your characteristics, even if they have some similar
characteristics. Like we talked about the coyote.
So I always think about the ideaof like how real something is
depends on the culture that's creating it or viewing it, you

(01:28:54):
know? And for me, that's such a cool
thing to see is like, it just matters in their everyday life
compared to ours. So it'd be amazing to go back
and be like, how real are these stories that you're telling?
Like, let's talk about the indigenous people.
How real are these stories you're talking about?
Like you're telling your kids over a campfire like this, you

(01:29:15):
know, came in and stole a coyote's like you can't think of
the exact story at the moment, not reading it, but came and
basically stole the coyotes likefood and tricked him.
How real was that? Did you see a coyote and that
happened? You're just like, Dang, that's
pretty tricky. That's a tricky coyote.
Came and took my baby, yeah. Dinga came and took my baby, so

(01:29:37):
I always like that idea is that Seinfeld for the win is that
it's just real compared to the culture that you look at, you
know? Right.
Yeah. But at the same time, we never,
we never fucking know if it's applying symbology to something
that exists. It don't.

(01:29:59):
Because we're not there. Sorry, you know, I didn't mean
to cut you off, but I was I. Was just going to add on to
that, that it's what's real seems to be whatever the group
of people is entirely focused onwhat's important to them,
whether symbol, symbol logicallyor or ideologically or or in

(01:30:20):
their physical world, what's what's the most important thing
to them? What do they focus on?
You know, interesting. To see there about that behind
the scenes, oh. Girl, girl, there was a story
which I'm I'm going to tell behind the scenes as well, but
we'll, we'll give them a little teaser.
Painted Rock. I seem to recall the story at

(01:30:41):
Painted Rock and I feel so bad Icannot remember the tribe.
Dee, if you're in the chat, helpme out.
There was this human origin story about how humanity was
actually created. And there are these paintings on
on the Rock and you can still see them today of a daddy
Bigfoot, a mommy Bigfoot and their little baby Bigfoot.

(01:31:04):
And it's just it, it goes through this whole story about
how the old animals got togetherto create humans.
And I do recall there's something to do with a oh,
goodnight, Alex, something to dowith a coyote in that story
being part of that creation process.
So I'll I'll tell that backstage.

(01:31:25):
It seems like that the Painted Rock tribe was probably in
Arizona in the Southwest. No, I wanted to say it's, it's
it's in the north. It's in the northwest.
Oh, gosh, Dwayne, help me. It's in the Northwest somewhere.
Or California. Shoot, I'm looking to look it up

(01:31:45):
right now. Yeah, please look it up.
Yeah. The painted, painted rock.
And it's crying, crying Bigfoot.Damn.
Central Texas. Because they're sad.
They're sad. I think they ghosted.
I mean, I feel like it was probably many tribes that they
have a bunch of. I'm just looking at painted
rocks. In general, but.

(01:32:07):
I'm going way off just. Painting off all the painted
rocks, I'm just. Finding rocks with googly eyes.
Like Texas, apparently. It's, it's been a long time
since I read that story, so yeah, I blame my old brain, but
yeah. 25 year old brain. Whole 25 years, yeah.

(01:32:29):
Any final thoughts? Did we want to take it backstage
for the rest of our chat? Take it backstage.
Yeah, I think K boost that we got a.
Where is it? A bit of stuff.
You crushed it. You did a great.
Job. This episode thank you so much
seriously you really did and andthank you to us.

(01:32:51):
Thank you K boost you're killingit from paranorm girl pod and me
and Gil are black cat report. We are just hello normally here.
This is what we do. We, you know what we do like
each other sometimes. Quite a bit.
Yeah, just a bit. But hey, booze, do you want to

(01:33:13):
give them some of your info? Sure, you can find and follow
the show on all socials at Paranorm Girl Pod across the
board. You can also catch biweekly
episodes of the show on all listening platforms and catch
all episodes of the show on YouTube in video format, YouTube

(01:33:37):
and sometimes Twitch. Hell yeah.
Gil, you want to give us our information for KB Sherry?
Black Cat Report, it's pretty, pretty easy to find us.
There's not a lot of thing. If you're finding literal
reports of Black Cats, that's not us.

(01:33:58):
But the podcast dedicated to paranormal, true crime, strange
history and of course UFOs. That's us.
And we do a show once a week, supposed to be on Sundays.
But ever since the Time Traveller series, we did.

(01:34:19):
What is time? Yeah, but find us pretty much
anywhere. And if you don't find us
somewhere, reach out to us contact at black cat dot report
and we'll send you a free sticker.
We got a running bounty on that.So we do.
And K boost. All right.
Thank you for having us on. Your channel?
Yeah. Oh, and thank you guys for

(01:34:40):
coming on my show. This was awesome.
You should collab more often. 100 cents.
We should, yeah. I don't know if you want to
thank the Patreon listeners or not.
Yes. You can think yours.
We'll, we'll just switch. Them up.
No, no, no. Go for it.
No, no. All right.
I don't have my list. Well, we'll thank them with the

(01:35:02):
exclusive content that's coming up next.
By the way, hit us up on patreonpatreon.com/i'm assuming
Paranorm Girl. It might be something else.
I guarantee you it's the only one coming up for Paranorm Girl
and patreon.com/blackcat Report.It also might be something else.

(01:35:22):
This is a Trickster episode. Haven't you learned anything?
But the point is, type it in, you'll find us.
And if you don't find us, how the hell did you find this
video? We love you all, Bye.

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130 | The Trickster Element: Linking UFOs, High Strangeness & Bigfoot - w/ Paranorm Girl Podcast

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}130 | The Trickster Element: Linking UFOs, High Strangeness & Bigfoot - w/ Paranorm Girl Podcast