130 | The Trickster Element: Linking UFOs, High Strangeness & Bigfoot - w/ Paranorm Girl Podcast - Black Cat Report | UFOs, Cryptids, True Crime & Paranormal

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Your pen goes missing just when you need it.
A lighter disappears into the ether when you just had it in
your pocket. Your favorite horse breaks its
leg in the last leg of a race. You're about to pay that mob
boss what you owe him from betting on the horse race and
you reach in and there's a hole in your pocket.
Your money fell out and just like your horse, your leg is now

(00:23):
broken. But just like the last time,
you'll head back to the track because rent is due and you'll
never learn. After all, you still have one
other leg that works. Because you never heard the
tales of the tricksters. Good evening and welcome to this

(01:09):
special episode mashup of Black Cat Report and Paranormal Girl
Podcast. I am ecstatic today because I
get to introduce two people I deeply respect, love, and think
are probably some of the best people to ever walk this flat
earth. First off, I'm going to
introduce the pleasing and handsome, capricious in

(01:32):
behavior, cunning and guileful Gil.
Hello. Thank you for such a warm and
wonderful introduction. And it is my most pleasureful
ecstasy to introduce the enchanting in movement, the
beautiful, beautifully beguilingin speech, the divinely

(01:54):
mesmerizing Kristen. Well, thank you, Joey and thank
you, Gil and Joey for doing thiscollab.
I've really been excited about this and this subject in
particular. To dig into it with you guys, I
am so glad we did this. Yeah.
Hell yeah. Kristen is the sole host,
writer, producer, marketer, owner and general all around

(02:17):
badass of Paranormal Podcast. And if you haven't followed yet,
now's the time to do it. Just do it.
It's real easy. Just hit, follow like and
subscribe on the paranormal podcast wherever you're
listening to this, right? Thanks, man.
Yeah, thanks. You just do everything.
Me and Gil separate everything we do.
So it's like you're basically double but quadruple the double

(02:42):
of me and Gilbert. Yeah, but it's that eight.
It's. It's worth it to do it the way
that you guys do it because I'm actually 25 and I, I, I doubled
in age. Just my.
I, I wake up feeling like I've run.
Run over by a truck every morning.
It's a lot, it's, it's, it's a lot for one person.

(03:03):
But thank you. I appreciate that.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we're gathering here as a
special mashup today because we got intrigued by the idea of
trickster gods and the idea of tricksters in general from a
past episode. Gil himself had researched and
narrated for the wonderfully amazing El Palmbero.

(03:23):
And if you haven't listened to that episode yet, it is episode
127. You can take a listen right now.
Well, a little later. But now for today, we brought
Kristen on to discuss the trickter God and goddess or
spirit phenomenon. We'll be going through a few of

(03:44):
the tricksters themselves and maybe at the end comparing and
contrasting their role and even some of their likenesses across
eras and locations. Tricksters in themselves, what I
like to call outlaws. And I want to see if you guys
can go along with me on this. Right?
So let's. I feel like they're outlaws
because in a sense, they just stayed right outside of societal

(04:08):
norms and societal laws, and they're constantly pushing
boundaries to see if they can bend or break those boundaries,
just like Gil did back in the day and still does today.
Okay. No, I'm not supposed to say
that. No.

(04:28):
Gil with two Ls. Gil with two Ls.
You know, if, if I were to say that you were any trickster, I
would say you would probably be Loki.
Just. It's an easy, easy one to do.
It's because. And that's why I use the
description of Loki to describe you in the intro.
Because I felt like, thank you so much.

(04:49):
I feel, I feel honored. I'm more of a Pan man, but
that's just me, you know? But Loki's, I, I accept Loki.
Loki's awesome grace. Yeah.
Loki's the shit. I just.
Something about Pan, I don't know, maybe it's cause, like, my
arch nemesis is goats that I just kind of have this, like,
you know, but that's, that's howyou manifest your trickster

(05:11):
spirit, is you kind of have to love and appreciate something
that you hate. You know what I'm saying?
Like, it has to be both ends. Oh, that's right.
You hate goats. That came up in the last
episode. Fucking hate them, sprinkle.
Hate them. Yeah.
Not a fan. Not a fan.
But I appreciate it. Hair and food.
That would be my nemesis. That's it.

(05:31):
I don't I don't know how that. Trickster.
Trickster. You don't like hair and food or
hair in food? Hair in food.
How does it always find its way into food?
It's Kristen's spiritual entity.Is a 711 a food selection?

(05:51):
Do they have 711 and where you are?
Me? No, no, that was.
Gosh, I haven't seen a 711 sinceI was in California actually.
Do they have the come and goes out there?
No, we've got the. What's it called?
No, new. New news.
No no's. I don't know.

(06:12):
There's a weird, weird one. Sounds Poo poos.
I can't remember. I think it's poopoos.
It's a chain. I feel like it's poo poos.
I'm gonna call it Poo Poos. And they do have hair in their.
In their hot dogs. And it's not like.
It's not like face hair or like face hair or, you know, top head
hair. It's a mystery, you know, chest
hair that's on there. Yeah.

(06:33):
Doesn't matter at that point. Yeah, yeah.
It's just not good. We'll say, Joey, just because
I'm. I'm excited about what you're
saying about going with the outlaw thing.
That is goddamn near universal when it comes to tricksters in
terms of always, almost always being a symbol of rebellion in

(06:54):
whatever country they're in. So when revolutions,
insurrections, things like that pop off.
It's super common for resistancegroups to adapt the imagery of
tricksters and like, as a role in society, they almost always
question, like, the establishment of authority and

(07:17):
push boundaries. So it's like being super profane
and being very immature, but also being wise at the same
time. And, like, incredibly
knowledgeable, but sounding likea moron, you know, again, you
know, that's a goal that I have for myself.
But. Your way.

(07:43):
Just slowly start sprouting goatlegs below the camera.
But does anybody else want to play flute?
But no, it's. They.
Tricksters are awesome. Tricksters are awesome.
I don't know. I'm excited to get into this,
Joey. I'm very fucking stoked.
I've been like, for weeks, ever since Kristen first brought up

(08:05):
the idea during our premiere of El Bombero.
Kristen, you know, you messaged you like, I'm going to do a
collab episode with you about tricksters.
Jesus Christ. Hell yeah.
How soon can we do it? You know, I've just been like,
yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I'm stoked, buddy. I'M stoked to get in.
Yeah. Can we start?
Do you want to start with something?

(08:27):
Throw us a bone, Joey. And then.
And then we'll launch off there because I think all three of us
are going to be attacking this in different ways.
So. Yeah, I can get into the
evolution. Yeah, yeah.
Why don't you kick us off? Well, give me a minute.
Oh, well, okay. While you're.
While you're doing that. Yeah.
El Palmero, that was. That was such a neat moment

(08:47):
that, that I was like, oh, my God, we got to do a trickster
episode. Because El Pambero, listening to
you guys go through this episode, and I'm not going to
give anything away because everybody needs to go watch it.
Episode 102, 107, it's recent, is very.
The only one that says Elimbero.The title is kidnapped by a
cryptid Alpine barrel. Yeah, Very, very recent.

(09:08):
Just go take a look at their channel.
But listening to this description of this creature,
which I'd never heard of, I didn't know what El Palmembero
was. Listening to this description,
it was like, oh, my God, that sounds so familiar.
What is with this pattern? Like, it sounds just like
Bigfoot to me. Like, and it was matching these
like, like pattern for patterns.And I was like, oh, my gosh.

(09:31):
And then I started thinking and I was like, you know, I've
equated. People have equated Bigfoot to.
It does some weird things that. That falls in line with the
trickster. And oh, my gosh, what if.
What if El Pombero is Bigfoot? What if they're all, what.
What's going on? Is this a trickster?
We gotta do it. So that's where I'm coming from.
Yeah. We're gonna Investigate,

(09:51):
explore. I 100% want to go to.
So say they're all related. Right.
I want to go to a trickster wedding.
Holy. Can you imagine that?
After party, all the tricksters hanging out.
Yes. They're just like.

(10:12):
And. And with these vows, I say,
divorce, surprise. Just like, oh, it was a divorce
the whole time you got us. Or what if they just all played
tricks on you because you're theonly non trickster?
So, like, everybody ganged up onyou.
I mean, you're a trickster for sure.
In real life, like, if you. If there was an embodiment of a

(10:35):
spirit, it would be you. But what if they all ganged up
on you? You know?
How would that. How would you love it?
Yeah, I would. I would love it.
I would absolutely love it. And also, Donut in our chat
pointed out an excellent idea saying, or made a great point
saying, I would go to a trickster bonfire, masquera,
which. Jesus Christ, if I had enough

(10:57):
friends locally, we would have one of those.
We're getting so bohemian, man. Yeah.
Hell yeah. Hey, Jaden.
Welcome, all. Well, tricksters in themselves
genuinely could be really cunning or in some stories, be
very, very, very, very, very, very gullible.

(11:19):
Take, for example, the story of Laverna, who was the Roman
goddess of the thieves, cheats, liars and fraudsters.
Laverna promised a priest who was selling his estate that in
exchange for the estate, she would build a temple on the
land. But instead, Laverna sold
everything on the estate and of course, did not build a temple.
When the priest went back to look for Laverna, she was gone.

(11:42):
And when she did it to another person, those victims, Laverna's
trickery came and asked the godsfor help.
The gods brought Laverne before them and asked why she did not
uphold the agreement. Laverner made her body
disappear, leaving only her head, and yelled, behold me.
I swore my body, but body have Inone.

(12:06):
And the gods got really confusedbecause Yoda and Star wars had
not been released yet after that.
Yeah, yeah, sorry. Not supposed to make jokes when
I'm writing the script, but I try anyways.
It was good. It was good.
Good job, Good job. Well, on the other side of it,

(12:29):
they could also be very gullible, and the trick was
always ending on them. The coyote spirit of the Hopi
was generally viewed as the gullible trickster.
The coyote was getting into manyadventures which end up serving
as moral teachings for either social interaction or etiquette.
And just as we said above, the trickster would be kind of
outside the societal norms in order to kind of establish the

(12:52):
boundary between what is acceptable and what is not.
And a lot of the indigenous tribes use tricksters.
Instead of saying that their morality is bad, they'd use it
to say that they're like to teach lessons and that they're
above. So we don't really understand
what they're doing. Like, basically like a God
looking down on us. Coyote itself would get tricked

(13:13):
and defeated by the animals thatwould interact with due to its
greediness, recklessness, or itsdisobedience.
Right. So that's kind of what coyote
would happen. There is also some stories of
the coyote being the. The non gullible one being the
tricker, but it's not as prevalent as the.
As the Hopi versions of it. Well, there's do you mind if I

(13:38):
point out a little fun fact? Coyotes.
So I was actually, you know, I went down a rabbit hole the
other day learning about coyotes, and there's a fun
little thing that they do. So over, you know, thousands of
years of living incredibly closeto humans and like, human

(14:01):
settlements and stuff, but neverclose quite allowing themselves
to become domesticated, they've picked up a lot of very
interesting tricks. And this is actually a survival
tip for folks because coyotes, fun fact, are in every single
city within the United States. You might not see them.
They exist. They live in packs, they run

(14:24):
around neighborhoods. Coyotes, like, go look up the
territory of coyotes. And it's cities that you would
not expect. Like, LA has like a huge problem
with coyotes right now. Like in downtown.
Like, they're everywhere. But with that, with them being
so close and so far, classic trickster behavior, they.

(14:44):
They've learned to do a couple of things, and these are warning
signs for you. Seriously.
Like, I'm not even making a jokehere.
So they'll pretend to be domesticated.
They'll pretend to be all cute and, like, loving up against you
in order to lead you to a spot where they will literally attack

(15:04):
you and try to kill you or eat you.
So they will go up and be like, oh, hi.
Oh. Oh, yes, I do love when you rub
my haunch. Yeah.
Oh, my God. Chin scratches.
It's been so long. Hey.
Hey. Do you want to come over here?
I found something cool. And then they'll just murder
your ass. So that's one trick that they
are known for doing to people. So this is like an actual.

(15:27):
If you're out at the park or you're out, and you're like, oh,
God, it's a coyote. And then you're like, oh, wait.
Oh, it's acting so cute. Oh, it must be somebody's pet.
Don't fall for that shit. Seriously, this is a survival
tip. Another thing they'll do is
pretend to be injured and play on people's sympathy in order to
injure the person. So, like, just saying, very

(15:50):
fitting for a trickster too. Like, that's solid survival
advice. If you're out in the woods and
you're like, yeah, it's a coyote.
Just like, wait a second. Notorious tricksters.
I'm not falling for that shit, but I will give you some chin
scratches, but not too many, right?
Humanity recognizes this type ofbehavior so easily.

(16:10):
And, like, it is an archetype. Like Jung, you know, pegged it
as one of the archetypes. But it is also so fitting Too.
That was this. The.
The Cherokee coyote was. Was Cherokees trickster.
Hopi. I'm sorry.
Yeah. I mean, it was pretty much most
of the. Most of the Southern.

(16:32):
Southern indigenous tribes, but okay.
Yeah, it was. It's just so, so fitting for
them to put this. This archetype, this character
onto that particular creature because they recognize that
behavior. They.
It was already. Yeah, the trickster was already
there. That.
That thought of that. That set of behaviors.

(16:53):
Yeah. Interesting.
And I wonder how much, you know,as Joey goes through the stories
that he's about to deliver, I wonder how many of these things
kind of, you know, is it the chicken or the egg kind of
thing? Is it a recognition of a
trickster like entity being essence, whatever?

(17:14):
There's. There's a million terms for it.
Is there a recognition of that? And then in order to teach
children about that, you say, look at the coyote and look at
this. Because it's so common for folks
to compare stuff that it might be complex, you know, but has a
broader, you know, an overarching moral or, like,

(17:37):
lesson to it, to compare it to something in nature.
Right. Like, we have phrases like that
all the time. You know, the thunder before the
storm, or like, where there's smoke, there's fire.
Like, we do these types of things become of these.
These analogies all the time. And I wonder how many times it's
like, oh, the coyote became the trickster, the trickster God or

(17:59):
the trickster God that everybodywas aware of.
Just really fit with the behavior.
And it was a great way to kind of teach folks and, like,
basically killed two birds with one stone, where you're like,
yeah, also watch out for them. But also there's this God out
there that you need to be careful about, like, I don't
know. Or to help people conceptualize

(18:20):
that. That God.
Yeah, go ahead, Joy. And you, Kristen, you.
You mentioned Jungian, like, thetheory behind it.
You know, he was old when he came up these things.
So why did they call him Carl Jung?
Jaden got you on that. Jaden.

(18:42):
Jaden earlier said, impossible challenge.
Joey goes 30 seconds without saying a joke.
I lost. Thank you for the challenge.
Okay, Joey. Yeah, you know what?
Gotta add some laughter to myself.
Keep them coming. No, keep them coming.
Joey's just over there. Like, somebody's got to make me

(19:04):
laugh. You just did.
Good job, Gift. That was a nice one.
Kristen made me laugh earlier. She had a good one.
So, alrighty, let's hop right into trickster gods, goddesses
and spirits. Keep them coming.
Yeah. So the first trickster we're
going to talk about today is Velis, which Velis.

(19:24):
I don't know if you guys know who Bayless is.
V E L E S. Okay.
Chose this one because there isn't actually a whole lot
written about Velas and most of it is actually just from spoken
tales. Valis, the God, serves as a
duality between societies. Right.

(19:44):
So the earliest written reference to Velas was in the
Rus Byzantine treaty of 971 AD in which siners swore by Velas's
name. Kind of like how we swear on the
Bible in God's name when we testify in court.
Velas was associated with the Russo Slavic area of Europe,
which is basically where modern day Slovakia, Romania, Ukraine

(20:05):
and southwestern Russia. So it's in that Baltic area, you
know that little area down there.
The best place to buy an AK47 from.
Yeah, exactly. Velas supplies and delivers.
Why do you know that? Go on.
Yeah, Next story. I'm kidding.

(20:29):
That was literally the whole story.
The ak. So abrupt.
He was. The ak.
I was just getting sucked in to Velis.
So. All right, so with Bayless, so
we're in the Slovakian, like, regions and stuff.
And you said, folks were. They signed this treaty or this
trustees or whatever, like they,they signed it to his name.

(20:49):
And so they were like swearing an oath or they were basically
saying like it was their generation's version of being
like, on God. Like that's what was happening
here. So this, this had to be like
pretty widely, widely accepted for this to make it into pseudo
legal documents at the time. Is there any.

(21:11):
Were you able to find any depictions, like early coins or
like, say like shields or something like that?
Like anything associated with. Because, like, if it's that big,
there was a feel, I feel like it'd be popping up some
symbolically. You know, there was a few early
depictions. This is also, if we think about

(21:31):
it, it's just before Christianity hits Russia in that
area. So it's just before that
Christianity was brought over there.
So this is paganism. This is their.
Their style of paganism. And which gods?
Because there's a bunch of gods.Bayless is a.
Is one of the many. As you know, as we talk about,
every other culture around this time has similar.

(21:55):
Has a bunch of gods basically describing how they understand
what's going on in the world. And that's another part about,
you know, the trickster gods. It's.
It's an ability to let them understand what's going on in
the world. Mm.
Now, the duality of Velas is that Velas is also associated,
as well as being a trickster, but associated with poetry and

(22:19):
wisdom. And as well as being the lord of
waters, ocean seas, ships and whirlpools, Bayless is also the
hunter and protector of cattle, which is just add another, you
know, little star to Bayless's name.
Little title. We had the most random gods back
in the day. Like, you are the gods of cats

(22:42):
and missing socks. Yeah, yeah.
Needed to put something in it tofill the hole.
They write and they're like, man, I almost got to the end of
the page. Yeah.
And the leader. You are the God of running out
of room at the end of a page andhaving to write really tiny at
an upward angle. Yeah, yeah.

(23:07):
Well, on the other side of this,he is also the God of the
underworld. So basically he's.
In the Christian terms, he's thedevil, or in the Greek terms,
he's Hades. So the God of burgers and
burning. Okay, yeah, right.
Yeah, I like it. As Veli's is the God of the
underworld is more of the normaltrickster we're kind of used to

(23:28):
hearing about. Right.
Not the God of poetry, wisdom, lord of waters, more of the God
of the underworld. Using trickery, he would drag
souls down to the underworld after they had passed away.
And depictions of Alis vary a lot amongst the culture.
Amongst the little tiny regions in Russo Byzantine area,
differentiated in the Balt. Like the small west, the

(23:53):
Yugoslavia Serb Slovenia area. I think it's not Slovenia,
Slovakia area. All little different things
about it. Some of them depicted as him
just being a bald human male sometimes with like bull horns
on his head. Actually, if you want to think
of it, he kind of had the bull horns, like trying to think of

(24:14):
the God that had bullhorns. Like minotaurs or.
Yeah, like kind of like a minotaur, I guess.
Right. With a bald head.
Okay, okay. All I'm picturing right now, I
mean. A lot of things have.
Have horns. Yeah, right.
It's not just one guy that I canthink of.

(24:34):
It's a lot of. All I'm picturing is movie night
last night with police. Yeah.
The. The chief who had the four giant
horns. Yeah, yeah.
Well. And the creationist side of the
story, because it's really. There's.
You know, most of these tricksters have two sides of it,

(24:56):
different sides of how they werecreated.
The craes ness side of the story, he is shown as a huge
dragon lying in nest of black wool or black fleece beneath the
world tree. And gill, you know, is part of
the you know, of the. What is it?
Protector of cattle. And everything around sheep.

(25:16):
Goats as well. Seeing that this dragon killed a
bunch of goats probably makes you happy.
Yeah, I'm on. I'm generally on the trickster
side. This makes sense.
This is VALIS and his. His evolution.
They turned him into a dragon. Like, this is part of the
evolution here. It's just different cultures.

(25:37):
Oh, okay, gotcha. Different cultures view him in
different ways and how they created, how.
One of them was like, he's a creator.
And we'll see this in the indigenous stories too.
One of them says that he's a creator, and another one's just
like, no, he's just like a fat, bald, horned human.
You know, like. Like, he's one of.
He's one of us. You know, like, thinking of it,

(25:59):
like. Just fat, bald, and horny.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Yeah. I would say that he is almost
the literal amalgamation of Lokiand Hades mixed together from
Greek and Norse mythology. Because, like Hades, he was
thrown down into the underworld after trying to kidnap the

(26:19):
Mokash, the goddess of summer, who is also.
There's a lot of name dropping here.
The consort of Parun, who is basically Odin.
If we. I'm trying to compare so people
can understand, like, how. Who they are in the story.
Perun is Odin. Right.
The. The leader, you know, and
actually Perun is also the God of thunder, which is.

(26:40):
It's the same thing. So it's like real confusing.
Real. Yeah.
They're not too super far from each other.
And I imagine the Vikings and came down a little bit.
I don't know, maybe around this time, maybe a little earlier.
I don't know. I don't know.
Time periods anymore, but time isn't real.
Well, yeah. They basically battle underneath

(27:06):
a huge oak tree, and Perun, the God of thunder, wins and casts
him down into the underworld. So this is like the origin story
of how he becomes the boss of the underworld.
You know, he goes, you know, give me some mozzarella.
You know, and then he becomes mob boss of the underworld.
Makes sense. This tracks.

(27:27):
Yeah, Sorry. I've been watching the Sopranos
and I'm kind of just you know, getting into my roots.
Never seen it. I got.
I still got to. I got to watch it.
Never seen even one. Well, it's just a lot of sex, a
lot of boobs. Because he's always in a strip
club. Yeah.
And then he's killing people. Cool.

(27:47):
And then he's in therapy. So it's like that.
Again, duality, you know, you see this duality of him.
Like, you just watch him in therapy and the next scene he's
at a strip club, and the next he's having sex with some random
girl that you just came on the screen randomly and then you're
like, cool. This is a.
He just does it over and over and over again.
Just a vicious circle. And isn't that how we all live?

(28:12):
That's life, baby. I need to get out more.
So did Velas. Right.
So you got Bayless with various different depictions across the
regions. I would imagine that these

(28:34):
depictions kind of got muddled up, mixed up, maybe altered from
being fairly uniform after Christianity came in and made
talk or, you know, any sort of representation.
Right. Well, I mean, this is just what
has happened a million, million and one time, sadly, as

(28:54):
Christians came in, did their best to just slash and burn
people's cultures, right. And then use the ashes as
fertilizer for their own mutatedversions of Christianity,
depending on the region. So there might have been other
gods would be. My first take is there might

(29:15):
have been other gods. And then over time,
generationally, since people canreally talk with their neighbors
because they might get snitched on and, you know, reported to
the. To the Christian police.
You know, these things get. These things get mixed up over
time. Like families might call them
veils, but then at the same time, nobody's openly talked
about Veilis and 20, 30, 40 years.

(29:38):
And so they kind of become theselittle niche stories.
And then all of a sudden it juststarts adapting and filling in
roles everywhere. And then before you know it, you
have the God of cats and missingsocks.
Like, at the end of the day, youdo.
And are we. Are.
Are you presenting this right now as.
As it was this like the earliestkind of depiction or concept of

(30:01):
like a trickster God that. That there is.
That's on record there at the. There have been through time.
This is the earliest that I could find as a.
With a lot of information. I would say with enough
information to put in part of anepisode, I guess, is the way to

(30:23):
say it. A lot of them, again, like, this
is one of those that's passed down through.
A lot of them are just passed down through stories and without
a lot of written evidence. It's hard, like you just said,
it's hard to not go, well, was this repurposed?
And they started as one thing, but then you start seeing them

(30:45):
rotated into different. Like, you know, this one has
like seven different responsibilities is what I'll
call the things. Yes, they just get so many
responsibilities. Tricksters.
That's why they get so tricky. But it's the earliest I could
find with decent enough information to understand like,
okay, this is a person. Velas did also even extend

(31:10):
himself into today. And just like Gil was talking
about, and he just feels like hereads my scripts and then just
goes, you know what? He reads my mind.
Because Velas was repurposed to be either.
He got repurposed to two different things, but to be
either the devil, which he kind of, it was a little bit of
trickster ish, which if we look in Christian iconography, most

(31:32):
of the trickster gods turn into the devil.
Christianity kind of goes, this is devilish behavior, right?
Yeah. Well, yeah, that's interesting
because Satan, or if we considerthe devil and Satan to be the
same. That was actually a note I made

(31:54):
earlier today. Satan is like a famous
trickster. Matches tons of the traits of
this entity, whatever, whatever this thing is, this concept.
That's Satan, baby. So veilish became the devil.
Okay. Yeah.
What's crazy too is that when Vladimir the Great brought

(32:14):
Christianity to Russia, which isnot too far after the first
written, you know, written signing, it was, I think it was
971. Let me make sure, because 971 I
was correct. Vladimir the Great brought
Christianity to Russia in 988. He created and kind of mirrored

(32:34):
Velis with the idea of a saint, Saint Vasily, who was depicted
in Russian iconography surrounded by sheep's cows and
goats, which is the. He's a leader of the cattle, you
know, of hunting and protecting.So kind of like they took both
sides of it, you know, and we'relike, let's.

(32:55):
Christianity went, okay, here's the good sides, let's take that
and here's the bad side. We're just gonna slash them and
use them. Yeah.
And that Christian co opting is just, that's just conversion
101. That was across everything.
Yeah. Every crusade.
Yeah. Just like co op the hell out of

(33:15):
whatever the hell's there. Like anything that's deeply
rooted or it could be kind of twisted.
It's just like, yeah, we're justgonna co op this.
And it's going to be the Christianity's local flavor.
Once you start reading into that, it's just like this moment
over and over again. Like, are you fucking kidding
me? Seriously?
Because it's so like once you can see like, oh, this was the

(33:38):
old version and then this is theChristian version, it's like,
oh, come, come on. Like you couldn't even change
the one thing you couldn't change.
It Enough that I wouldn't recognize it, like.
But you don't know that until you.
Until you look. Until you look at it.
Christ might be the greatest trickster of all.
That's all I'm saying. Ah, man, I was just about to say
that. It's true.
To add to this, right? So we use the phrase put someone

(34:02):
out to pasture, right? You know, you're putting an
animal. Put a person out the pasture,
they're retiring or, I don't know, in the end of it, you're
going to die. I don't know.
It's. Don't really use it as going to
die, but use it as you're retiring nowadays.
Well, yeah. Remember the idea that he was
the protector of cattle and Protector and the hunter of

(34:23):
cattle. So in the Slavic and Baltic
Russo area during that time, it literally means somewhere you go
after death, because when they died, they went out to pasture
and say, out to pasture. It's like out to the fields.
I picture it as, you know, in Gladiator, that scene when
Marcus Aurelius is dying and he dreams of walking through the

(34:45):
fields of grain in the pasture, meeting his wife and kids again.
That's kind of the idea that this VALIS would.
Would put forth, is that you're going out to pasture with the
animals, which is like, living and like, it's a beautiful
afterlife. Even though he was the God of
the underworld, it wasn't like afiery brimstone underworld like
we think of, like Christianity has brought to us.

(35:07):
Well, okay. Well, thank you for lifting the
Bayless on that. Yeah.
Well, we're gonna drop into our second trickster for today.
Walking past Gill's nice little pun.
We're gonna travel just a bit southwest to go down to the

(35:29):
continent of Africa, specifically in the country of
Ghana, where the trickster Anansi originated.
Anansi. The name itself.
Yeah, yeah. Anansi.
The name itself was derived fromthe actual Akin Aiken.
I think it's Akin word for spider.
I want to apologize for all of the things that I'm pronouncing
incorrectly. I've looked them up.

(35:51):
Not as Anasazi. It's hard.
The Akin Aiken on. On a.
On Anansi. I think it's Anansi.
I think it's an too that's. There's different pronounce
pronunciations for all of these gods from different areas.
Poltergeist, potato. It's the same thing.

(36:12):
Yeah, yeah. Go.
Go with your gut, Joey. Yeah.
It's funny looking at all of these tricksters and then like,
we talked about with the cultureand how much they, like, change
over the different cultures, their names change the tiniest
of bits because, you know, different languages, of course,
to. In smaller regions.
So you're just like, I don't know what to call you.

(36:34):
I'll call you what I saw you on Google.
And the most that came up, the most in the Google hits.
So I feel like that's the. The best way to go.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please.So.
Anansi. Anansi.
Anansi. Yes.
Okay. Okay.
I was just reading. I.
I assumed it was a she. I might be wrong, but I was just
reading about this God, and it's.

(36:56):
It's like a giant spider. Giant spider.
That's one of the ways it's. It's.
It's depicted. Mm.
Why. Why have a God that's a spider?
Why choose that? It.
It's. I would say it's not.
Okay, so this is semantics, right?
So it's. Anansi in a lot of stories is

(37:18):
not a God. It's like a.
I would say more of a spirit. It's like a in between.
And they. They say it in.
In a lot of the stories, it's the in between.
Between the gods and. And people.
And so it's like the mixture. It was like a messenger in a lot
of ways. It does godlike things, which is
very interesting in some of the stuff I've read.

(37:38):
And some. Obviously some of the stories,
because it's a million differentlittle culture, little regions
around there having tiny bit different stories.
Some of them had it as a God. Some of most of them had it as
just like a messenger, between. Even though it was like a
spider, you know? Right, right.
Okay. But it was between, like the
God, this level between the godsand then humanity.

(38:00):
Like. Like an angel or the gin.
Yeah. Okay.
If you've ever read the Silmarillion, that's getting
real nerdy here. There's the top, which is the
why can't I remember the name Man Way.
And the Man Way is basically thetop of it.
And then you go down and right beneath that is the Mayor, which

(38:22):
is like Gandalf, Saruman, and stuff like that.
So, like, the second level, they're the Istar, which is the
wizards, the second level of it,they're, you know, kind of
there. So that's what I would say.
Anansi is like a second level, like you said, the Djinn, like
right below the angels. Okay.
That's kind of what Anansi is. Some, like Qbiz had Just said

(38:43):
some stories depict Anansi as a spider.
The spider in this term has a human face, which is just like,
oh, I don't like that. That just makes it weirder.
Some of them have them with a human, like, just as a human
normal with eight legs. So like some of the depictions

(39:05):
of them have eight legs. And it's just like, what is
that? Or like it didn't explain and it
didn't show pictures if the legswere human legs of eight legs or
if they were spiders of eight legs.
You know, I mean, like spider spindly legs or if it was human
legs. And it just looked really,
really whack and crazy. That was an angel.
They all looked crazy. The creepiest of them.

(39:28):
Biblically correct angels were not any better.
Well, one of the stories associated with Anansi, and
probably perhaps the most well known story, is a story that
Anansi itself allowed us to have.
This makes sense a little later.That sounds weird.
PR team. Yeah, exactly.

(39:50):
Yeah, they're good marketers. So before time, the distant way
back in the day, there were no stories.
Right. This is a.
Interesting concept. Yeah, this is the concept.
Okay. We're dealing with the concept.
I thought you were stating a matter of fact.
I was like, what? Mind blown.

(40:12):
It's like the. It's like the.
The tree falls in the forest is.If no one's around to hear it.
No stories if you can't tell them.
All the stories at the time wereowned by the sky God, Naomi.
Ananse Jonesing. I added that word in myself for
some stories. Decided to try and buy the

(40:35):
stories from Naomi. But Naomi laughed.
Naomi is the sky God for the Akon people.
Basically like the big cheese, you know, the big over, over
top, the Odin, so to speak, of everybody.
Yeah, well, Nanse said he would pay anything.

(40:58):
So Naomi kind of joking, gave Ananse four near impossible
tasks. Right.
And so this is also kind of likeother stories as well.
They have many impossible tasks.Kind of like all the.
What I say, all the old, like Brothers Grimm stories back in
the day too. You have all these tasks you
have to do. Mm.

(41:18):
Well, Nancy would have to catch four of the most dangerous
creatures in the world. The oninni, the python.
Don't know if I said that correctly.
Mumboro hornets and if you know,hornets impossible to catch.
Osebo the leopard and the fairy Memotia.
So a lot of. Sorry, again, a lot of hard

(41:41):
words. Anansi agreed.
But the Nyame made another demand.
Ananse would have to bring his mother Yanisia with.
With him to do this just like, wow, cool.
Bring your mom. You're not cool enough.
You're not good enough. So ananse did what any other
good person would do and asked his wife to come along too, and

(42:03):
help. Well, to make this longer story
shorter, because it is a very long story, and I don't want to
go through all of it here. Ananza used trickery and guile
to capture each of the four creatures and brought them back
to nyame. And then nyame said, well, you
did that, so I can't say no. Was laughing about it,

(42:25):
basically, like, I didn't even believe you were going to do
that. Here's the stories.
And now the theory behind it is that now we can all enjoy all of
the stories. And that is one of the myths,
the folklore behind anansi. Okay, okay.
So anansi is considered like, kind of like a trickster entity

(42:46):
because of the way that they attacked their.
Their assignments, like what they were supposed.
Their tasks. Oh, okay.
Okay. Yeah.
So the task basically was like. Would go to the.
To the hornets and was like, hey, hornets, it's about to
rain. And they were all out, you know,

(43:06):
flying around as hornets do, attacking people, and was like,
hey, this about to rain. I got a place for you guys to
go. Like, you can come.
I have this little thing said, like, a pot.
It was some kind of pot and was like, you guys can stay in here,
like, in this pot until it finishes raining.
Yeah. They're like, oh, God, it's
gonna rain. And so they got in there.
He's like, gotcha. Okay.

(43:27):
His wife's just in the background with tinfoil.
Like. The best team ever.
Yeah. Real power couple adding into
this. Because this started in Ghana,
right? And this started in that area of

(43:48):
the world. Once the African slave trade
pretty much started to wreak havoc on the tribes in that
area, they used some of the tales as a nazi to develop their
own ideals. And this is exactly what Gil was
saying earlier with resistance. Because so many people were
being taken as slaves, it allowed them a blueprint for the
idea of resistance. And Gil just, you know, threw,

(44:10):
threw, threw it out there because he's a.
He's a genius with this, with knowing how this script is
written. Which then leads ananse to the
aforementioned idea that ananse is an outlaw, which I'm coming
back to because I just bring allthese trickster gods back to
being outlaws. Ananse allowed African American
people who were taken as slaves to dream of turning the tables

(44:33):
on their oppressors by using cunning and trickery the same
way that Ananse did in the the four trials.
Even if some of the physical part of revolting didn't always
happen, it did happen as well. And they used those.
I think it gave them sort of an other world to go to just to get
by as well. It wasn't just a physical, it
was also a mental part of tricksters that allowed them to

(44:56):
use it. They would also use it as real
life applications to understand their behavior.
Basically using behaviors to, tostart to get like, what is it
called to gain the upper hand inthe plantation power structure.
And I didn't make that up. That was actually written about
in a book. Try to find the actual person

(45:18):
who wrote that. I'm not smart enough to think of
that, but it's true. Sorry, this was written by.
Nevermind. What am I doing?
A guy. A guy.
A really smart guy. Dude.
I'll list it in the. NANSI's PR team.

(45:45):
This is so this, this brings up.You kind of just touched on a
point in a general sense that I had written down here, something
that I did want to kind of talk over a little bit like
tricksters, trickster entities, trickster spirits, gones, what

(46:06):
have you. But there's a handful of things
that they kind of like universally can get applied to
them where it's like, there's a few outliers where it's like
this trickster entity over here doesn't have that or isn't known
for that. But for the most part there is

(46:26):
like, I would say like a good 70to 85% like fitting description
for most tricksters across cultures, centuries and just
like experiences, human experience, right?
Like it feels like everybody, everywhere, no matter how
connected they are, kind of all set on these same 75, 80% of

(46:46):
similarities when it comes to tricksters.
One of that's one of those things, one of those hallmarks
is being a shapeshifter that just across the board, right?
Sometimes the shape shifters, the essence or the powers that
they have, right? The abilities, it can be full on

(47:06):
like, you know, they can shapeshift into anything, they
can sound like anyone, they can imitate anything.
It's just complete copy and paste of whatever they're trying
to imitate or become. Other times it'll be tricksters
where they, they can transform into, you know, birds and frogs
specifically, you know, but generally speaking, shapeshifter

(47:28):
is a thing. And I think that it's, it's
fascinating too because going back to the cultural level,
right, in terms of how societiesadopt in times of need, right?
Tricksters, right, in terms of we're going to take a different
lesson from that. We're going to stop fearing it

(47:48):
and we're going to start embracing certain qualities,
right? Tricksters themselves as
entities, they shapeshift withinsociety's eyes.
And it's so fucking fascinating to see that, right?
Where it's like you have this external entity.
But the actual lessons go from we should fear them to we should

(48:14):
use them to impose fear on our enemies.
Hey, how they. Yeah, and it's what, what it is
literally, right? They shape shift their own
status, right? Which is so fascinating to me
because we. There's this concept of like it

(48:34):
is external, it is real, it is, you know, living, breathing,
walking, transitioning through dimensions, what have you.
But also as, as a, I don't know,an ideology, as a belief system,
right? It just, everything just kind of
like shifts with them and it's. I fucking love that because

(48:54):
literally it went from being like, hey, it's a part of the
creation story and it's a part of this and it's, it's bad and
it's not, you know, we should kind of be worried about it to
being like this is how we're going to oppose the slave trade,
right? And love that.
Tricksters are so cool, man. I love, I love that ability as

(49:17):
well. I've said that before, talking
about tricksters in the past, that it's like when, when you
are talking about it in regards to an entity, some, something
that is real and an entity, not a concept, not an ideology.
This entity, it doesn't seem to have a form, a face, a name.

(49:38):
And I have said this before too.It becomes what you need to see
it. It shows itself to you in the
way that you are going to be able to see it.
And that has a lot to do with the person and the perceiver as
well. But you know, just this idea
that maybe, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it doesn't have like.

(49:59):
Like we can't. I can't describe to you what
what one looks like because its whole existence is shape
shifting. I don't know.
It's bopped from one. Fairies, aliens, Bigfoot, on and
on and on down the line. Used to be gods down the line.
I don't know. Is it a concept that has become

(50:24):
something that's real, but it doesn't have a body to call
home? H.
That's where my brain went. That's an interesting, that's an
interesting thought. It ties into much bigger theory.
But yeah, that fascinates me that something that could very
much. What's the.

(50:46):
I'm drawing a blank here. This just came up in a recent
interview that you did. It's not an aggregor, it's a
tulpa. Tulpa.
Yeah, tulpas. So are they.
You know, if we want to go the route of defending tricksters
existing and not just being a tool, not just capital J on just

(51:08):
being a tool of social expression and existence and
explanation. Right.
But actual entities. Right.
And in our understanding of it has a conscious.
And that's kind of where it endswith being able to describe
them. You know, are they.
Are they tulpas? Are they regional Tulpas.
Right. And a tulpa being a thought

(51:29):
form. I just realized I never
explained that to folks. Sorry.
A tulpa being more or less enough of a.
An emotional and mental commitment by humans, I guess
I've never heard it apply to other animals, but by humans
that brings something manifests an actual conscious entity into

(51:54):
existence. And it's.
It's a thought form. It's a thing that's been created
strictly because of people's beliefs.
Right. Almost kind of like how we value
money. If anything, it's kind of a
really messed up. That's a very.
That would be an aggregator abstract created by simple group
think. So.
So group think is going to create your egregore.
Thank you. The single person is going to

(52:17):
create the tulpa or servitor. But the thing is like I after my
recent talk with Dave Zilla, who's.
He's a practicing witch and he'salso very much into AI and he
created his own egregore with the help of AI Like I do believe
these to be very real, like thinking of being into being
into reality. I think they are real.

(52:40):
And that's interesting you picked out Tulpa specifically
because out of all of the thought forms, Tulpa is going to
be the more likely out of all ofthem to kind of separate from
its creator and become its own thing, thinking for itself,
making decisions for itself and causing some havoc, causing some

(53:01):
chaos, which is interesting. Could be.
Was it the first person on earthand they got lonely so they made
themselves a friend and the trickster has been here ever
since. Could be.
We went so deep, you guys. I love it.
Well, adding into a lot of that and I think taking it from the

(53:26):
physical realm to more of the cultural realm for which, you
know, I did a lot of the study into the cultural realm and the
idea that most of the African tribes created their trickster
God as animals, you know, and ifyou look at Europe's trickster
gods, they're most, in general, human being, like, you know,

(53:47):
human being with like Loki, who had the other.
Who's the Hermes? Hermes is brea.
Was it a travel or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they're all very human, like.
And a lot of the African tribes have a lot of animals, you know,
and from stuff that I've read, just the idea behind the

(54:09):
tricksters feeling like they're part of the people that they
come from and that they're like against some sort of.
I think a lot of this move towards it more when the slave
trade happened is that the animals became more parts of
their lives because again, like,we talked about their resistance

(54:30):
and that these animals were. Became very cunning and very
like, smart, very clever on waysto like, fight in different
ways. And then with.
With, you know, the Europeans, they're just like, oh, they're
humans. They're just like us, we're over
top. And they're more of like an.
I don't know, trying to explain this idea that I was having that
a lot of Europeans don't have that we use, I guess, the human

(54:55):
as a archetype, comparatively. Native Americans also use a lot
more animals as well as in theirspirits and theirs too.
So I was just wondering if there, there could be some kind
of connection between those two.I think that comes with the
general bastardization that comes with Christianity as a

(55:17):
whole. So one of Christianity's early
tenets, like, it's very early foundational tenets, is to
separate people as much as possible from nature and to get
humans to see themselves as separate from the animal
kingdom. Right?
Like, that's like standard. Like, you are unique, you are

(55:39):
blah, blah, blah. I mean, go back to the Bible and
it's like God gave man dominion over all things.
Yeah, right. And separating, separating out
the human from the animal, wheremost of the world, I would say
most of the sane world never sawourselves as separate from

(56:00):
animals. Yes, we fit in with them and we
have our own little. Our own little fancy dance and
communication. But at the same time, like, we
recognize ourselves as like, we eat, sleep, fucking shit, you
know, like, this is. We are the same as every other
living thing that we can see. And we're all inherently
connected to one another, which.So when you get into like

(56:22):
battling paganism, very broad stance, right?
When you get into battling paganism, you have to
differentiate yourself, right. When it comes to that literal
war that was taking place, right?
And one of those things is to say, no, no, I'm human, I'M

(56:44):
better than all this other shit.I own all this other shit.
I have rights to all this other shit.
I can do whatever the hell I want to, which justifies a whole
host of atrocities for thousandsof years.
But that was a part of the weaponization of the Christian
doctrine as a whole. So, I mean, to kind of get back

(57:06):
a little bit to what you were saying at the beginning of your
thoughts. Joey, you know, the.
The Christian Bible is full of examples.
Sorry I'm forgetting some, but Ihope folks that are in the chat
who paid more attention in Sunday school than I did can
bring them up. But it's full of examples of
angels working as tricksters, right?

(57:27):
Like, that is a literal thing. That is a literal thing, is
like, oh, they went up and they did this and they tried to
convince them of this and they dah, dah, dah, dah, and this and
that and the other. And then for like, kind of the
big moves on things, it's. It's Satan, it's the devil, it's
the fallen angel, it's Lucifer popping up.
He. He's making the big moves, you

(57:48):
know, but there's angels poppingin.
There's like, look at the story of Job, for instance, right?
Like within Christianity, where the Devil's like, oh, look at
that guy over there. He's real into it, but his
life's been so fucking easy. I bet he would give up on you if
he made it hard. God fell for a trickster.
God fell. He just started torturing Job
doing the worst possible. He's like, yeah, see, he still

(58:12):
believes me. And Satan's like, yeah, yeah.
I don't know. It kind of seems like he's
slipping and he's just like, well, that's fucking kills kids.
Satan's like, oh, my God, you actually did that.
I mean, you. Oh, my.
You. You actually did that.
Like, that's some classic trickster shit.
You are. You are outsmarting the
Almighty, which is something that tricksters do in all these

(58:34):
creation stories, or a lot of them, where it's like you have
Loki outsmarting, you know, likeOdin and shit.
And like coming in, just being like, aha, you're the wisest.
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. And like tricks them into, like,
this. Is classic in, in Christian,
like, people who, like, who. Who really get into the theology

(58:54):
and, like, the history of Christianity and the history of
the Devil versus Satan versus Lucifer or whatever.
Like a, A Satan, A Satan was. It was an angel being used as a
tool by God, right? To be put into positions, to
Challenge his believers to put them in positions to have to

(59:16):
choose, like, absolutely, like, ultimate trickster.
I love that you went there. You know, when God was like,
freaking torturing job. Satan was looking.
I'm like, ugh, damn. Did he do that?
Did he make him do that? Wouldn't even do that.
That's shitty. That's pretty shitty.
Did he just put raisins in the tuna salad?

(59:42):
Ge God instead of grapes? What is going on here?
You guys ready for the good news?
Yeah. So, yeah, Anansi still is a
trickster God today in hoodoo. And they use it.
They use them as, like, help. Anansi.

(01:00:02):
Anansi. You can beckon Anansi to help
you become a better storyteller.You can become a better
performing artist, stand up comedian, writer, producer, any
kind of performance artist, musician, cow.
All for the small fee. And tell me if this sounds
familiar. Gil and Kristen for treats,

(01:00:24):
liquor, cigarettes, or even justsome story, songs or jokes.
Just like our little buddy down in a pomero.
Yeah, See? Damn it, Barrow, you get around.
Nancy is Palmeira. Also.
I need more Anansi in my life. Mm.

(01:00:45):
Yeah, just bring out some treats, liquor, like, some
smokes. Pretty much just literally.
Anansi is just like, quick christen.
Smokes, smokes. I got you.
Anansi slash El Pambero. Honestly, my front porch
constantly. I'm just trying to summon every
goddamn entity that's out there because, like, I constantly, you

(01:01:05):
know, I don't sleep much. I'll be up till three in the
morning. I'm drinking a beer.
I'm lazy. I'll just, like, leave half a
beer on my front porch with, like, a bunch of cigarette
butts. I'm pretty much just, like,
asking for. It, you know, it's basically how
you summon fairies as well. And Eldero and Ananzi and, you

(01:01:25):
know, just. And all.
Just all of them. Well, fairies in general for
tricksters. Right?
Fairies themselves. Yes, they are absolutely. 100%.
Yeah. They live to trick.
There's such little shits. Sorry.
Such cutie pies. There's something.

(01:01:48):
I'm glad I'm taking this on. I'm running with it.
You brought up fairies, something.
Tricksters are fascinating. Just.
I know. I've said that 40,000 times.
And we're an hour and a half or whatever into this episode.
Hour and five minutes into this episode.
But you know something that fairies are known for that so

(01:02:13):
many other tricksters are known for, including Opal and Barrel
is Donut. Why did you say Gil has bears?
I do have bears. The Bear that lives next to me,
his name is Luffy. Seen the videos?
Yeah, but. But barely keeping it together.

(01:02:38):
No. So it's.
Tricksters, along with being able to shapeshift, also have a
notorious reputation for warpingpeople's perception.
Right? Their perception of.
Specifically their perception oftime.
So making things feel very, very, very fast, Making things
feel very, very, very slow, or it feels like, you know, it only

(01:03:01):
took 10 seconds, but actually you were gone for five hours, or
you were gone for five hours, but it felt like 10 years.
Right? Yeah.
This is such a classic effect oftricksters and fairies are known
for this. Specifically of doing shit like
this to you. People with their encounters
with Bigfoot have experienced similar shit 100%.

(01:03:24):
El Pombero does this exact same shit entirely, and probably most
famously, at least in my mind. Aliens.
Aliens do this shit like a motherfucker.
They love to shit on time. They love to screw up people's
perception of time. Even the argument about aliens
existing plays a role of can we travel faster than light?

(01:03:48):
Like even the argument around their legitimacy.
Legitimacy comes down to our perception of time and arguing
with it. Which the best argument about
aliens being able to visit is that they're able to bend time
and space and travel here. Yes.
This is just a modern argument for a trickster.
And I'm not saying it's not legitimate.

(01:04:09):
I want to clarify that because it's really easy when we
externalize things away from our.
Our general English speaking culture, which I'm assuming most
folks listening to this are partof the English speaking culture.
Right. It's really easy to externalize
things as far away in the past or foreign.
And we kind of like label it as goofy and strange.

(01:04:30):
But we are not coming with the subtleties of being raised
within the culture. Right.
We're hearing three paragraph highlights.
We don't understand how significant it is.
And it's the same way that anybody hearing about aliens
mocks and laughs at the concept of aliens, and they're like, oh,
yeah, that's stupid. I can't believe you believe in
that. It's because they actually
haven't taken time to dig into it and recognize that

(01:04:52):
legitimacy. Right?
Or at least the potential legitimacy.
But for this audience, for theseaudiences, I should say all of
our arguments, our most advancedarguments, the ones that are
being presented to Congress right now, are based around

(01:05:15):
trickster mythology. It's literally the bending of
perception of time and space that goes with it.
It's shape shifting down to the actual craft itself.
It's being able to imitate things appeared in certain areas
even. And this is what's so fucking

(01:05:35):
great. Something tricksters are known
for throughout time. And, you know, it's in that 75,
80% of all of them. Brack is advancing society by
pushing, by pushing norms, thoughts and impressions and
concepts around trying to understand UFO technology

(01:05:58):
literally pushes our understanding of science and
what we research and try to develop. 100 fucking percent.
We are, we are no different thanfolks who, you know, look at the
anasi or look at valis or whatever.
We, we are no fucking different.And I think that that is so
important to kind of slap ourselves.

(01:06:18):
At least that's what I try to dowhen it comes to like up and
barrel and other things where it's like, I don't want to get
up on my high horse and be like,well, it's like, no, I don't
have the intricate knowledge. I'm not on that social level.
And this is the same shit. It's everywhere.
It's fucking everywhere. I don't know.
That's my rant on that subject. But it's.
That was awesome. I loved everywhere we went with

(01:06:41):
that. That's so cool.
Yeah. Yes.
And that's. That, that, that goes along with
kind of how, how I have been thinking about it and I think, I
think you and I probably arrivedat the same place, but coming
from different ends. Like, I wasn't introduced to the
trickster concept until my, my season on UFOs and aliens and

(01:07:02):
talking to somebody about abduction and they introduced
this to me. I was like, what, what does that
mean? Like, aliens are like this
trickster entity. What does that mean?
And just going from there, realizing that all these
subjects, past all of these paranormal entities that I have
talked about and never thought the wiser.
They match, they match, they match.
Especially ones that go back in time, like fairies.

(01:07:25):
That hooked me because that takes the concept of aliens and
UFOs and it gives it historical depth.
I can't see a difference betweenthe stories of fairies and their
abductions and their bending of time and their abilities and
what is taking place in modern day abduction accounts.
I do not see the difference anymore.

(01:07:46):
I think they are the same thing.And then being able to, moving
forward, tie that into Bigfoot accounts and like Bigfoot, it's
split down the middle between your flesh and blood apers and.
And then the woo. But the woo side, when you look
at the woo stories time and timeand time again, it is matching

(01:08:06):
the pattern. It fits with the same pattern
that aliens fit with the same pattern that fairies fit of
these, these Trickster behaviorsand traits.
So that's how I came to it. I came from it.
From the history point. Like I just found that.
That sucked me in. I was like, there's something
here. There's something here that can
explain. It's the tie that binds.

(01:08:29):
What if fairy rings are just landing spots?
Anyways, sorry. I just wanted to say I love.
This happiness that these. These connections are getting
you guys. Honestly.
Nerds. Oh no.
The shit's fascinating like it is.

(01:08:49):
I'm taking it. Joey.
Another thing too do it. Tricksters are also really
notorious. They're in that.
That 8, 10, 9, 10. I forget where I'm at with my
percentage examples here. But the.
The majority of tricksters are also advocates, proponents, and
violent defenders sometimes of nature.

(01:09:09):
Basically, you disrespect naturewill disrespect you.
That's a constant thing. What did every single UFO
abductee come back and say with their messages about what aliens
were trying to tell them? Seriously, go find a single
fucking abductee anywhere and ask them.

(01:09:31):
It's. Y' all are gonna fuck up with
nuclear weapons. Stop harming the planet.
You're poisoning everything. Y' all need to chill the out.
We're trying to have peace here.Respect the earth.
Like it's the same shit. It is the same shit.
Down to another trickster classic which is fucking up

(01:09:51):
travelers. Misdirecting travelers.
People getting abducted out of their cars, people getting
abducted on camping trips. People getting abducted on trip.
It's the exact same thing. 100%.There is no difference between
somebody out there on a wagon who gets fooled by a ferry or
some shit, or on a horse that gets fooled by a ferry or some

(01:10:14):
shit versus a semi truck driver on a.
On a road in the middle of the night who just all of a sudden
is like, what the hell just happened?
And only remembers a bright light.
There is no difference between these two experiences.
Agreed. For the human right.
It's. And a lot of times they come
back saying the same shit. Hey, we should really stop
fucking things up. Exactly.

(01:10:37):
Over again. I just like to interject real
quick and just give a shout out to our sponsor, Quasgos Shutters
and blinds. If you don't want us to abduct
you, just shut your blinds. And I feel official slogan.
Sometimes you need blinds. That's all.
That's. That's it.

(01:10:58):
Keep going. Congratulations on.
On your sponsor, guys. Thank you.
They've been with us. Episode 10 Episode 11 until the
AI oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. You know, I was just reading the
last trickster God. Wondering if I should go into it
or if we should just go ahead into our talking points because

(01:11:18):
you guys are crushing it already.
Should I go ahead? I think.
Wait. I don't know.
I've been covering my talking points throughout, so.
Okay. However you guys want to swing
it. I think you should save it and I
think we should cover it in the behind the scenes and post it.
Sounds good. Various Patreons.
What y' all expected a full episode?

(01:11:40):
Guess what? It's a trickster episode.
You were never gonna get it. But also, guess what?
Guess what? You heard Patreon.
You thought you had to pay. You know, we all have free
membership opportunities and we got the links in our show notes,
thank you very much. So we just want a better way to

(01:12:00):
communicate because if you've made it this far in the episode,
you obviously care for our rambling.
Either your rage listening pleasure listening or pleasure
rage listening. If it's anything else, I don't
want to hear what you're doing. Yeah.
So obviously you give a fuck andwe'd love for you to give a fuck
on a regular basis by staying connected to us at our various

(01:12:23):
Patreons. Paranormgirl.
Find her on Patreon. Black Cat report.
Find us on Patreon. It's all there.
But speaking of that long rant, you know what I would like to do
with it? Another thing.
Tricksters are known for invisibility.
All right, we haven't even touched on that shit.
Tricksters are not. They cannot just shape shift and

(01:12:45):
like become anything that they want.
They can also completely become invisible, like aliens.
This is Bigfoot right across theboard.
Damn. You just delivered that with
some eyes. Like you saw.
Like you seemed it. I've been ready to fight for
Bigfoot. This whole life unseen.

(01:13:06):
Nobody's fighting you. Why do you think Bigfoot is a
cryptid? Or is it not a Cryptid and is
more of a trickster? Why do you think?
Well, I think. Lay it on me.
The concept of Bigfoot itself. It is a cryptid.
It is a cryptid. Yeah.
I am not saying one side or the other is.
I will say that the ape only side.
They do have a shit ton of proof.

(01:13:28):
They have so much proof. More than enough proof.
A mountain. But I've spoken to some people.
Or an erotica novel. I've spoken to enough people on
the other side of the aisle and listened to their stories and
listened to what draws me into that side is the pattern and

(01:13:49):
that it's consistent across the board.
And so I'm not going to be closeminded to that.
I still need to dig even furtherinto it.
I am open to it. Yeah.
I'm not necessarily on the side that it is absolutely this
trickster thing but I do want tokeep pushing it out there,
putting it out there into the universe that, you know, look at

(01:14:11):
this, look at this. It matches, it matches.
It belongs here. That's all.
Yeah. So if I can add this to maybe
what you both are kind of putting forth in this because
Gill is, is real staunch and adding into this that hey, maybe
aliens are tricksters, you know,maybe tricksters are aliens.

(01:14:33):
Maybe it's a mixture, you know, maybe.
Go ahead. You can correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not wrong. Cool.
I'll keep going. And Kristen, you're talking
about how, you know, cryptids and or at least Bigfoot in this
other area which in some people say flesh and blood, some people

(01:14:55):
say it could be an idea more than anything a trickster that
maybe these tricksters are from.Can I posit this to go a little
deeper? Are from another realm of
existence, you know, and they talk about angels being that,
you know, and that may be another dimension that we don't

(01:15:15):
know of. Absolutely.
Yeah. Because they obviously they
don't abide by. That's, that's the main
distinction between us and them is while they, they can be
physical and exist in this physical dimension, they don't
always, they don't abide by the same rules.

(01:15:36):
Yeah. So yeah, I, I think it's, you
know, suffice it to say I think they are from another dimension,
another place. Something well into, into my
thoughts behind it. I wonder like where, where I, I
think of it and the idea of how I come through tricksters is it,

(01:15:57):
is it a physical being? You know, because we always ask
this too. It's like in.
With different cultures and juststudying the different, the
different trickster gods and goddesses and spirits in the
different cultures is that in some cultures it seems like
there is a physical being in presence, you know, with, with,

(01:16:19):
with the indigenous. They talk about the coyote being
that and a coyote is a physical being.
Just like Gil talking about earlier.
Did the, is the, you know, chicken or the egg?
Was the coyote just the, you know, just the exact description
of the trickster God or did the trickster God inhabit the coyote
to give it those, those characteristics and that's kind

(01:16:41):
of how I think of it. Or is it just like, you know,
with. I guess, you know, in Norse
mythology they actually thought they were real.
They thought that the gods Were up on, you know, looking down on
them. One quick, easy note here.
Wiley Coyote, right? Wiley Coyote is completely made

(01:17:01):
up, is a caricature, right? Has a whole set of history, has
a whole set of stories. Culturally, pretty, pretty well
understood. I would say, like 7 out of 10
folks are going to describe Wiley Coyote the exact same way.
If you're talking to anybody in North America, right?
Anybody that's been raised in North America, they're going to

(01:17:22):
explain Wiley Coyote the same way, based off of loosely
literal fucking coyotes. So take this.
Just because Wile E. Coyote, if, if coyotes went
extinct and human history got wiped out, at least the long
memory of it and the bones were all destroyed and they're like,

(01:17:43):
oh, they had this character. And look at the depictions of
him and da, da, da, da, da. And this is how most folks
described him over here. Some folks described him over
here. There might be an argument for
whether or not Wiley, you know, coyotes were real, basically
because they were like, well, no, look at obviously, like, you
know, he was in these fights with the rotor.
They're no, there's no possible way there was an animal throwing

(01:18:04):
dynamite. Like, this is insane.
You know, like. So we have to look at history.
Especially when you're getting back into like 900 something ad
right, where it's just like, youstarted off by saying, yeah, I
could barely find shit on them. Yeah, we don't have shit on
them. But there were people getting
together to sign under oath withtheir name.

(01:18:26):
This was culturally understood, culturally relevant in that way.
It was. That was significant across
different regions, right? But it begs the question, so
Wile E. Coyote is not literally real,
just a symbology, a representation, a caricature,
right? Coyotes are real.

(01:18:48):
The cultural memory is real. Right?
That culture memory can get faded and changes on person to
person. What does that mean for gods?
Just in general, right? So does that mean that again,
which came first, the chicken orthe egg?

(01:19:08):
I think that that has a lot to do with just our place in time
and realization. Because we're able to at this
point in history, in 2000 years,I don't think we will be able to
at this point in history. We're able to say coyotes
existed before Wiley Coyote, right?
But in 2000 years, people might look back and be like, I don't

(01:19:31):
know, it's still debated on whether or not there was a wild
canine running around. Like, they might literally say
that. And just how we look at, like,
you know, this crazy bird dragons, or, you know, the
spiders with human arms, legs and shit like that, like these
we have to look at it the same fucking way.

(01:19:51):
I don't know. I just don't think humans have
gotten any smarter or dumber throughout history.
I think we've pretty much coasted on the same level of
stupidity, which. Which goes to show in the fact
that we have to keep relearning the same historical lessons,
like in the 1930s, but now in America, that's a different

(01:20:13):
story, I think. Yeah, but it's.
This is hard to fucking. It's tricksters, man.
Tricksters are fucking tricksters all the way around
because their. Their inherent nature says, you
can't prove me, but everybody talks about me.
Like, you ain't got a photo of me, but everybody can describe

(01:20:36):
me. You don't know what I can do,
but everyone knows what I've done.
And it's just like, God damn, trickster.
I have no name, but everyone hasa name for me.
It's just like, stop it. Stop it already.
Everything about it. This.
This came up with El Pombero, where it's like, it drove me

(01:20:57):
fucking insane again. Please, folks, anybody near to
me, anybody that loves me, reachout to me.
I'm in need of help. Don't let me look into
tricksters again because I go insane.
I'm too literal of a person whenit comes to research.
And I had to literally flip to fucking tabloids, to the
sensational clickbait articles in order to research tricksters,

(01:21:19):
because in the true trickster fashion, the most illegitimate
thing was the most legitimate thing.
And like. Which was like a five days after
the episode was supposed to be released, I'm like, I understand
what I should do now because thehistorical records fucking
sucked. And they all disagreed with each
other. Slash, the sources weren't

(01:21:40):
reliable because it was a bunch of fucking Christians coming in
and being like, I don't know. Craig said it was brown.
Whatever. Anyways, we killed him.
Like, it was all bullshit, you know, it was hard to.
I was like, I don't want to listen to this guy.
He killed Craig. I love Craig, so the best.
But in order to get this understanding of something that
everybody knows about but isn't well documented, I had to go

(01:22:04):
into clickbait articles, which are great for having one very
strong quote that they just expand upon afterwards and
there's a bunch of bullshit added to it.
And that was the only way I could get direct quotes from
folks within this culture, within the society where folks
experience, live with, and understand El Pombero.

(01:22:25):
And I was like, you fucking El Pombero, you son of a bitch.
The Trust the worst thing in order to find the most legit
evidence, which is the brilliance of tricksters.
Right. Just as a, as a goddamn hole.
And this comes down, this comes back to, to throw it back to
Chris. This comes back to Bigfoot.
Every Bigfoot. Every Bigfoot nerd big footer if

(01:22:50):
you will, loves good casting of a big footprint.
Oh yes. Every, every one of them does
every that. This is, you know, safe to say
universal. Yet they're interdimensional.
Right. Yet they're, they're shifting

(01:23:12):
between dimensions but they're leaving physical traces.
This goes back to the trickster,you know, just existence where
it's just like that even within the culture.
It's this desperate need to showphysical evidence while
acknowledging this extra temporal type of like existence
around things where she's like, we've got the footprints.

(01:23:34):
We, you know, everybody sends off hair samples but you never
really hear about them afterwards.
But, but there's always this fight for, for the physical, but
complete lack of physical at thesame time.
Well that, and that's where you're.
Yeah, you run in your, into yourdividing line there.
And that just goes back into people desperately trying to

(01:23:56):
conceptualize things and stick them into a box so that I can
understand it with my stupid human brain.
And that's where you. The line that divides like, you
know, the, the footprints, they're awesome.
The people that are on that eight only side.
It is a physical creature. Duh.
It is a physical creature. It's totally.
It's an undiscovered ape. It's a descendant of.

(01:24:20):
What's the word? Gigantopithecus.
I don't know. It's a little harder to explain
that physical footprint if you're on the other.
On the woo side. Just that they're physical while
they're here. They abide by our rules while
they're here. Trickster guns.
Fun to think about, right? On our reality while they're

(01:24:41):
here. Yep, yep.
And dip the out real quick. You know, it's, you know, in the
same way I could say the word lion, but what does a lion
symbolize? A lion?
Royalty. Royalty, Nobility, wisdom,
respect, Aslan upper class, Courage, strength.

(01:25:04):
Right, Strength. Things like that.
These are completely understood.Lions still exist.
Just because we have this sharedagreed upon symbology behind it
doesn't mean that lions don't exist.
The same way that we have a shared understanding of a
cartoon doesn't mean coyotes don't exist.
You know, and tricksters play this exact spot which is so

(01:25:27):
perfect for them. That thing that's always Going
to get away, but be right in front of you.
You know, I love them so much. I think get a tattoo of a
trickster, but I don't know whatto get.
I think El Palmembera for sure. I think the idea, large molecule

(01:25:51):
dermatologist. Is that a tattoo of two
partially deflated basketball stuffed into each other black
pillowcase. Why, yes, it is.
Yes, it is. You know.
You know me, I always think of the idea of like, and when we
talk about the physical, just like with Bigfoot and like, if

(01:26:12):
we talk about tricksters in general and that that the
cultural part of it is that I would love so much and I think a
lot of people would love to go back into that like time period
with that culture and be like, do you.
Is this a physical thing in yourlife every day?
And for some of it, I imagine they'll say it mattered to us.

(01:26:34):
It might not be physical, but itmight just be just as real
because of the way that these stories or the way that these
things affect, affect how we live our lives every day.
You know, like you talked about pushing up against the
boundaries of life and dependingon which culture, which area of
the world. Some of them have different ways
of how they view their tricksters.

(01:26:54):
Like we talked about trying not to talk about the indigenous
peoples one, because we'll talk about that in the.
The behind the scenes, but exactly.
So there's your note to follow us to get the behind the scenes
too. But talking about like Velas and
that it was more of like, not really bad, but it still wasn't

(01:27:16):
looked on as good. You know, Velas wasn't like a
great theme. But then we talked about like
Anansi, you know, Anansi. And Anansi was like, became like
almost like a champion of the people, you know, and that it
was also part of it. So I think it just change how

(01:27:37):
tricksters are viewed is how real they are is where who's
viewing them. And just like you guys talked
about your tulpas is the same idea is that if you view them
more as real, you can create that identity into reality.
But if you view it as less real,it goes away.
I mean, just idea of freaking, you know, believe in me, believe

(01:27:57):
in me. You know, like Tinkerbell.
When you're trying to believe inTinkerbell to believe in her,
you got it. To keep her real, you got to
believe in her. You know, Santa Claus, you know,
if you watch Elf, that believability to get him to fly.
So it's like I think of that idea is it just depends on the
culture, how real life it is, you know, and putting it into

(01:28:18):
animals makes it even more real.Because then.
Because we don't really know what animals are thinking in
general. Like, nobody has come up with
the moment of an animal translator.
So being able to translate what an animal.
Not yet, but getting there aboutwhat an animal is thinking.
So you can inject what your thoughts are onto that animal or

(01:28:41):
your characteristics, even if they have some similar
characteristics. Like, we talk about the coyote.
So I always think about the ideaof, like, how real something is
depends on the culture that's creating it or viewing it, you
know? And for me, that's such a cool
thing to see, is, like, it just matters in their everyday life
compared to ours. So it would be amazing to go

(01:29:03):
back and be like, how real are these stories that you're
telling? Like, as well, let's talk about
the indigenous people. How real are these stories
you're talking about? Like, you're telling your kids
over a campfire like this, you know, came in and stole a
coyote's. Like, can't think of the exact
story at the moment, not readingit, but came in, basically stole

(01:29:24):
the coyotes, like, food and tricked him.
How real was that? Did you see a coyote?
And that happened. You're just like, dang, that's
pretty tricky. That's a tricky coyote.
My baby. Yeah.
Dinga came and took my baby. So I always like that idea.
Is that Seinfeld for the win? Is that it's just real compared
to the culture that you look at,you know?

(01:29:47):
Right. Yeah.
But at the same time, we never. We never know if it's applying
symbology to something that exists.
We don't, because we're not there.
Sorry, you know, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I was.
I was just going to add on to that that it's what's real seems

(01:30:08):
to be whatever. The group of people is entirely
focused on what's important to them, whether symbologically or
ideologically or in their physical world.
What's the most important thing to them?
What do they focus on? Interesting to see.

(01:30:28):
I'll fight you about that. Behind the scenes.
Oh, girl. Girl.
There was a story which I'm going to tell behind the scenes
as well, but we'll give them a little teaser.
Painted Rock. I seem to recall the story at
Painted Rock, and I feel so bad I cannot remember the tribe.
Dee, if you're in the chat, helpme out.
There was this human origin story about how humanity was

(01:30:52):
actually created. And there Are these paintings
on. On the rock.
And you could still see them today of a daddy Bigfoot, a
mommy Bigfoot and their little baby Bigfoot.
And it's just. It goes through this whole story
about how the all animals got together to create humans.
And I do recall there's something to do with a.

(01:31:14):
Oh, good night, Alex. Something to do with a coyote in
that story being part of that creation process.
So I'll tell that backstage. It seems like that the Painted
Rock tribe was probably in Arizona, in the southwest.
No, I wanted to say it's in the north.

(01:31:35):
It's in the northwest. Oh, gosh, Dwayne, help me.
It's in the northwest somewhere or California.
Shoot, I'm looking it up right now.
Yeah, please look it up. Yeah, the painted, Painted Rock.
And it's crying. Crying Bigfoot.
Damn. Central Texas, they're sad.

(01:31:57):
They're sad in Texas. I mean, I feel like it was
probably many tribes that they have a bunch of.
I'm just looking at painted rocks in general.
I'm going way off now. All the painted rocks.
Finding rocks with googly eyes. Like apparently it's.
It's been a long time since I read that story.
So. Yeah, I blame my old brain, but.

(01:32:22):
Yeah, 25 year old brain. Whole 25 years.
Yeah. Any final thoughts?
Did we want to take it backstagefor the rest of.
I think we should. Our chat.
We should take it backstage. Yeah.
Yeah, I think we're cool with that.
We gotta. Where is it?
You crushed it. You did a great job this

(01:32:43):
episode. Thank you so much.
Seriously. You really did.
And, and yeah. Thank you to us.
Thank you. Cables.
You're killing it. From paranorm Girl Pod and me
and Gil are. Black Cat Report.
We are just. Hello.
Normally here. This is what we do.
We, you know, what we do like each other sometimes quite a

(01:33:08):
bit. Yeah, there's a bit.
But. Hey, Booze, do you want to give
them some of your info? Sure.
You can find and follow the showon all socials at
ParanormGirlPod across the board.
You can also catch bi weekly episodes of the show on all

(01:33:30):
listening platforms and catch all episodes of the show on
YouTube in video format. YouTube and sometimes Twitch.
Hell yeah. Gil, you want to give us our
information for capers? Sure.
Black Cat Report. It's pretty, pretty easy to find

(01:33:52):
us. There's not a lot of things if
you're finding literal reports of black cats.
That's not us, but the podcast dedicated to paranormal true
crime, strange history and of course oofos.
That's us. And we do a show once a week.

(01:34:13):
Supposed to be on Sundays, but ever since the Time Traveler
series we did, what is time? Yeah, but find us pretty much
anywhere. And if you don't find us
somewhere, reach out to us. Contact, and we'll send you a
free sticker. We got a running bounty on that,
so we do. Kaboos.

(01:34:35):
Thank you for having us on your channel.
Yeah. Oh, and thank you guys for
coming on my show. This was awesome.
You should collab more often. We should.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't know if you want to thank the Patreon listeners or
not. Yes, you can thank yours.
We'll. We'll just switch them up.

(01:34:56):
No, no, no. Go for it.
No, no. All right.
I don't have my list. Well, we'll thank them with the
exclusive content that's coming up next.
By the way, hit us up on Patreon.
Patreon.com forward slash. I'm assuming Paranormgirl.
It might be something else. I guarantee you it's the only
one coming up for paranormgirl and patreon.com blackcatreport

(01:35:20):
it also might be something else.This is a Trickster episode.
Haven't you learned anything? But point is, type it in.
You'll find us. And if you don't find us, how
the hell did you find this video?
We love you all. Bye.

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130 | The Trickster Element: Linking UFOs, High Strangeness & Bigfoot - w/ Paranorm Girl Podcast

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}130 | The Trickster Element: Linking UFOs, High Strangeness & Bigfoot - w/ Paranorm Girl Podcast