June 16, 2022 • 41 mins
In this explosive episode of Black Family Table Talk, we cut to the bone examining the cause of anti-Blackness in our culture. Dr. Jill Wener is our courageous guest. She is the co-creator of a self-study course called Conscious Anti-Racism: Tools for Self Discovery, Accountability, and Meaningful Change. (Take 15% off with promo code: BFTT15)
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Episode Transcript
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Dr. Wener (00:00):
By trading in aspects of our own culture are what
(00:05):
makes us individuals and whatmakes us unique. By trading that
in to get access to whiteness,because the definition of
whiteness has expanded overtime, for convenience,
basically. By trading that andwe kind of -she calls it a soul
death, like we have to trade inpart of our soul to get access
to this whiteness thing and itjust blew my mind when she
(00:27):
talked about that.
Tony (00:30):
Welcome to season seven of Black Family Table Talk. We are
your host, Toni and Tony. Joinus on our journey to discover
ways to build a strong blackfamily.
Toni Henson (00:39):
This season is sponsored by ABTF travels. Join
us as we travel each year beyondborders off the beaten path, to
immerse ourselves in culturesthat celebrate our Pan African
heritage. Each journey isspecially curated to provide you
with what promises to be abucket list transformative
(01:03):
experience.
Tony (01:04):
I can't wait until we go again. In the meantime, we have
a very special guest joining usat the kitchen table this week.
Listen up.
Toni Henson (01:16):
Welcome to Black Family Table Talk. Dr. Wener. We
are excited to have you.
Tony (01:24):
Yes, we are.
Dr. Wener (01:25):
You can call me Jill.
I put the MD up there justbecause sometimes people care
but I don't actually care. See?
Toni Henson (01:32):
Well, you have a very interesting background. I
was very intrigued and wanted toget you on the show because
normally, we have people whohave experience the trauma of
living while black in the UnitedStates. So I wanted to get a
different perspective and getyour take on anti racism and
(01:56):
this movement that you have sobravely, courageously been
working to counter act. So tellus how you got started in your
journey to combat racism in theUS?
Dr. Wener (02:10):
Well, first off, thank you for having me, I did
have to double check. I waslike, do know that I'm white,
right? So I do appreciate youhaving me on the show. I have a
lifetime of whiteness, like Icertainly didn't like lived my
whole life the way that I wish Ihad. I don't think I was like
(02:31):
the worst that could be but Iwas your typical, liberal, well
intending white person whodidn't think they were racist.
That's me to a tee. So when Ihear people saying that, I know
you and I continue to be that,obviously. I think for me, when
it really, really started was in2016, I wrote a blog post
(02:55):
because I had done my meditationteacher training. I thought I
had all the spiritual wisdom tooffer people. I was like, we're
gonna be okay, I promise. It gota lot of really great response
but then a friend of mine, who'sa sociologist, actually, a white
woman, sent me a message thatsaid, Hey, I thought you might
(03:16):
want to read this article. Ithink your blog post is really
privileged. And the name of thearticle was dear white people,
please stop telling me it'sgonna be okay. That was
literally the name of my, myblog post. So I had an extremely
defensive reaction to myself,just because we were on
Messenger, and I think I wasactually out of the country at
(03:37):
the time, but I was like, Who isshe? Why did she think? I'm not
racist! What does she mean? Allof that. But then I was like,
Well, I don't want to be that.
Whether she's saying, I didn'tknow the term "privilege". I
obviously lived it. So I knewit. But I didn't know what like
specifically that it was calledthat and how it played out. I
started reading and I realizedthat she was totally right. And
so I just started learning andreading and reading and
(03:59):
learning. For a really longtime, it was a personal journey.
I never thought I'd be teachingpeople about it and think I had
necessarily anything to teach.
Then I went on an allies andaction ally ship retreat in
(04:19):
2019, led by Leslie Mac, andPaige Ingram. And it was
basically lots of amazingworkshops, and then meeting
amongst each other andstruggling and learning and then
struggling again, and thenlearning and doing all of that.
And as we're going through wewere talking about the
(04:40):
characteristics of whitesupremacy culture, that worked
by Team Oakland and KennethJones and how we recognize it in
our bodies. I'm sorry, thatwasn't how we did, it was how do
you recognize that in your life?
How do you recognize things likedefensiveness, perfectionism and
the right to comfort and all ofthese. Like characteristics of
this culture that we all live inand are impacted in different
(05:01):
ways. For me, I was like, I'm ameditation teacher and a tapping
practitioner. So I'm all aboutthe mind and body connection.
And I feel like to some success,use these tools to help me
process the way those come up inme. So when I'm defensive, I may
get defensive but then I'm alsogoing to kind of connect with
that and use it as a moment tolearn. So I don't always get it
right at all. But I kind of hadthis aha moment with the
(05:24):
guidance of the women leadingthe retreat. Maybe I can teach
white people to use some toolsto lean into this discomfort, to
not shut down. And that's how Ibegan. That's how conscious anti
racism began. And it didn'treally flourish until I met my
partner, who's a black woman,Dr. Misha Clairborne, another
(05:45):
physician, and we kind of putour experiences and expertise
and energy together, and that iswhat eventually became the
conscious anti racism that wehave today. Long answer.
Tony (06:01):
No. Very good answer.
Could you give us a little bitabout your background? I
understand you're a medicaldoctor. You practice internal
medicine and you did that for 10years? Are you still doing that?
Dr. Wener (06:16):
No, I actually left in 2015 unintentionally, but I
And now you're into theconscious health meditation and
went into teacher training inIndia for a few months and had
the opportunity to live overseasin China. And then by the time I
tapping and rest technique. Now,when you started doing that, did
had been out for six plusmonths, I had another skill that
I could actually do. I decidednot to go back. It didn't feel
like it resonated.
(06:47):
that kind of lead into exposingyou to anti racism, or that was
separate.
It felt separate at the time. Ithink actually looking back,
there's a whole host of the waysthat whiteness shows up in the
(07:07):
wellness, space and culturalappropriation and toxic
positivity and all sorts ofstuff. So I think that it is
very intimately tied into thesystem of white supremacism and
racism. But at the time, I wasjust like, we're all the
typical, we're all one thing. Iwouldn't think I was at, I was
(07:28):
never like, an All Lives Matterperson. That wasn't me. But
certainly, we're all connected,but not actually connecting. So
I think on some levels, it gaveme the tools to do the deeper
work, but on some levels thatalso initially kind of separated
me because I was like, I'mmaking the world a better place.
I'm a meditation teacher. So andas a doctor, I don't think any
(07:50):
doctor is gonna be like, Yeah,but issue with racism, like, the
system is so broken, and I don'teven think we realize how
indoctrinated we are. I don'tthink I saw that at the time.
The meditation and the tapping,absolutely helped me kind of
process stress in a differentway. So that when I started to
(08:10):
realize that there was an issuethat I needed to contend with
personally and out in the world,I was able to regulate myself,
and I was able to do it in ahopefully, productive way. But I
think sometimes if we hideourselves in wellness practices,
as white people, we can pretendlike everything is fine, and
(08:33):
that we don't have a problem. SoI think the answer to your
question is, yes, and no, Iguess.
Toni Henson (08:40):
It's interesting that you talk about toxic
positivity. Can you elaborate onthat term? That's the first time
Dr. Wener (08:48):
Oh, yeah. It's such a good term. It's the blanketing
I've ever heard it.
over of negative emotions, witheverything should be okay, let's
all just focus on what's happyand positive, without honoring
lived experience. So there'sdefinitely room in this world
(09:08):
for affirmations. And there'sdefinitely room in this world
for thinking positive of coursebut if someone comes to me and
says, Oh, I'll just this oneexample is popping into my head.
So I have one of my tappingclients who was working through
being abused as a child -molested by a family member, and
(09:29):
she's going through it and I wastrying to be like, Well, but you
chose this life and you learnedand you learn the lessons from
it that you needed to learn. Shewas like, Nah, I'm not accepting
that, I did not choose this. Ithink that the toxic positivity
is this need to like, find alesson and everything and, and
kind of not honor people's pain.
I think it happens in all alldifferent places, and all
(09:53):
different ways, and it's reallyrampant in the wellness
community. I think it stems froma discomfort with people's pain,
and an unwillingness to sit withthat, and not having the skills
or the tools or theunderstanding to do that.
Toni Henson (10:12):
Where's the hope?
Because Trayvon Martin wasassassinated in 2012. And I
dedicated my life to comfortingand healing African Americans.
And I do that in several ways. Istarted the a theatre festival,
so that we can tell our storiesand heal because I truly believe
(10:32):
in the end the power of ourhealing. And, we started this
podcast in 2020, and our ownstruggles to stay together as a
married couple with all of theexternal influences that we have
and the struggles that we havewith raising children. So I
stopped trying to teach whitefolks about our pain, and kind
(10:57):
of got free from that and justkind of threw my hands up and
said, Okay, it's not gettingbetter the hostility is toxic.
So where's the hope?
Dr. Wener (11:12):
I think it's a great question. And I want to just
thank you for sharing yourexperience, and your purpose and
your why and recognizing theneed to separate yourself for
your own self care. I thinkthat's important. A lot of white
people don't get that, that wecan happen dangerous, even just
(11:36):
existing. I think the hope isthe more we learn about trauma,
and maybe, the more we learnabout trauma, the more we
realize that trauma can be heal.
And trauma shows up in differentplaces, in different ways, with
different people. And if we can,in some way start to heal our
nation's trauma. There's likeindividual trauma, there's
(11:58):
nations trauma, there's, andthere's people doing amazing
work, there's people doingCymatics and trauma work, and a
lot of that. And so I think thatthe collective consciousness as
as it's like, spiraling out ofcontrol into horribleness, it's
also growing and expanding. Ifeel like, my hope is that the
people doing amazing work, thework that you're doing, and the
(12:19):
theater that you're doing, andthat will continue to give
people places to heal and sharetheir stories. And then when
people start to understand, Hey,there's, there's work that needs
to be done that can somehowtriumph. I do feel a little
hopeless right now, just becauseso many bad things, macro, bad
things keep happening, like overand over and over again. But I
(12:40):
do feel like I'm in communitywith a lot of really incredible
people who are not only blackpeople doing this work. I feel
there is community in that way.
I think we have to just, wewhite people be really willing
to get uncomfortable, and justget in there and let our egos
(13:00):
go. That's hard to do when youhaven't had to do that. When you
haven't had that, to build thatresilience. So I don't know if
that build any hope. But I thinkthere's a lot of amazing things
in this world. And I'm just kindof seeing like the response to
the Supreme Court about to turnover Roe v. Wade, and, and the
(13:24):
reproductive justice communitycoming together and, and
community care. It's bringingout the best in a lot of ways
and I think without hope we wedon't have much, so I feel like
things have to change. And Ihope that they will.
Tony (13:42):
While I was excited about the work that you're doing, and
through working with yourpatients, by anti racism, you
talk about meditation, and I'mjust curious to know, what are
you your thoughts on how racismaffects black people differently
than affects white people? Andare there any common
(14:05):
similarities between the twogroups? Or we're in two
different worlds and there's noconnection?
Dr. Wener (14:13):
That's a really good question. And I want to answer
it carefully. I think thatthere's no way for white people
to understand the livedexperience of what black people
experience. I can read about it.
I can have friendships andrelationships and talk to people
in here and were in witness itbut I can't know what it's like.
On that extent, I'm never gonnaknow.
Tony (14:33):
I don't want it from that perspective. I want it from a
white person's perspective.
Racism affect both of us. Sowhat's the damage done to white
folks? It's obvious what blackfolks are going through. Is it
just a mindset? Is it just whiteprivilege? It's a byproduct of
it. Or is there a mental state?
Dr. Wener (14:57):
Yeah, I think it's destroying everything. I think
racism is absolutely harmingwhite people in a different way.
While I don't have the livedexperience of it, I can see and
there's a wonderful book calledThe Some of uU by Heather McGee,
that talks about the way thatbecause of racism, white people
have suffered predatory loans,home mortgages, health, health
(15:21):
care - refusal to expanduniversal health care because of
not wanting to give Black peopleaccess. It's underneath
everything. Reproductive rights,student loans, public schools,
all of it is was designed bywhite people to keep their own
(15:42):
privilege, keep their own thingsand keep other people out,
whoever they perceive isdifferent. But it ends up coming
back and harming them. So it itharms us, not just on those kind
of practical levels, but I thinkit destroys our souls. I don't
even want to say a little bit, Ithink a lot. And Ruby Sales is a
(16:04):
incredible activist and shetaught me, not directly to me,
but that by trading in aspectsof our own culture, or what
makes us individuals, and whatmakes us unique, by trading that
in to get access to whiteness,because the definition of
whiteness has expanded overtime, for convenience,
(16:25):
basically. By trading that in,we kind of, she calls it a soul
death, we have to trade in partof our soul to get access to
this whiteness thing. And itjust blew my mind when she
talked about that. So I thinkthat we all suffer, and we are
all impacted by it. And I thinkit's going to take a lot more
(16:48):
awakening to really for whitepeople to really see it. It's
almost like doubling downagainst everything that's being
shown of how harmful it is. It'slike no, I have to cling to this
mindset. I don't want to comeoff like I'm better than other
white people. I'm not.
Tony (17:05):
How does racism manifests itself and your life and white
people's life? I mean, is thatwhere the fear comes from? Why
is there fear? Why is there needto always squash the gains of
black people? Your privilege,you have enough. Well, you have
(17:27):
the opportunity. Not that whitefolks don't have struggles. We
all know it different struggles.
But it seems like there's acollective effort to stop the
progress of black people. Isthat connection to your work to
why that is?
Dr. Wener (17:46):
Yeah. The way that has made sense for me is if you
think about the culture thatupholds racism, so not just
racism itself, but like whitesupremacy culture. The culture
of defensiveness andperfectionism, and there's all
these different characteristicsthat's what I was mentioning
before that work by time open.
Like individualism, right tocomfort. I like this belief that
(18:07):
I have the God given right to becomfortable at all times. If I
think about the culture thatpervades our whole country, is
that and so that culture ofwhite supremacy culture is going
to impact us all in a differentway. But it's going to make
white people think that theyshould be comfortable all the
time, it's going to make whitepeople think that there's a
(18:31):
certain way to do things my way,like this way that is around us.
It's because it's a systemicthing, it's what we're all
raised in it. But we all take itin different ways. As a white
girl, looking at the news andlooking at who's riding the bus
versus who's not riding the busin my neighborhood and, and
seeing the way black people areportrayed in the media and
(18:54):
seeing only white people aroundme at my private school. All of
that, that's going to ingrain inme in a certain way that is it
needs to be disrupted. Until westart disrupting all the
different messages that peopleare receiving, it's not just at
home, it's everywhere. So thereisn't an ingrained, like
implicitly and explicitly taughtsuperiority. That's absolutely
(19:17):
wrong. But it's kind of what'staught. I think that has to be
disrupted. Because white peopleare scared like we're the scary
ones. We're the ones that causeharm yet there's this somehow
belief that, Oh, I'm going to beafraid of the black person
walking on the street, whichdoesn't make any sense. But it's
so ingrained in the culture thatit's hard for white people who
(19:41):
are saying, Oh, I'm not impactedby race, not seeing that they
are absolutely 100% impacted byrace. So I think if you're not
on the receiving end of it, it'sharder to be aware that it's
happening. And that's wherehopefully, some of the work that
I do with Dr. Maisha, bringingawareness to people, that this
is what it looks like. And it'sin all of us. It is not a thing
(20:04):
to point fingers at otherpeople. My hope is that because
most white people aren't goingto be like, consciously like,
Oh, I want to keep black peopledown. But the behaviors in the
system that we participate in tothat. We have to see the bigger
picture and also the role thatwe're playing in it, even if
it's not something a lot ofpeople say, Oh, well, I'm don't
(20:28):
tell racist jokes, or I don't dothese things, therefore, I'm not
part of the system. And I thinkwe are.
Toni Henson (20:37):
I think there are some behaviors that white people
need to be more aware of. Andeven though they may have the
self perception, there arethings like microaggressions.
That's all a part of theoppression, that's all a part of
(20:58):
racism. Even the lack, or theinability to acknowledge when
somebody identifies as black. Ihave a very robust social media
following. And the festival iscalled the Atlanta Black Theatre
Festival, not a day goes bywhere someone white does not
(21:21):
post. I guess, they thinkthey're clever by saying, Oh,
no, I think I want to go to theWhite Theatre Festival, or
calling the festival racist. Soeven just identifying as black
comes with its own set ofhostilities, how do you move
through that because I'm noteven engaging it anymore. I just
(21:44):
delete it. i How do you movethrough that. It's easy for me
to say because my husband's incorporate America, and he
engages with it, and he's thestrongest person I know. My
children are in theseenvironments but I had to
protect after the insurrection,I left the country because I
(22:04):
could not take it. I guess it'smore of a comment but what do
you do when you can't evenidentify as black. And I know
your work is, you're an ally andan empathizer. So I get your
position, but I am. Can yourespond?
Dr. Wener (22:24):
Absolutely. Again, thank you for sharing what
you've been through and I justwant to honor and acknowledge
everything that you're sayingand all of your experiences. I
think a lot of times there'slike No, you're not experiencing
that, or Oh, you're playing therace card And you're not. I just
want to say that, I think on amicro level, I think if White
(22:49):
people can learn, and it's notjust white people, I think other
non black people of color,there's work to be done by
everybody in terms of antiblackness. I think if we can
learn to let be like, Okay, Ihave this lived experience me as
Jill, like I am a white woman. Iam Jewish woman. So I've
experienced some degree ofsomething. Also there's a whole
(23:14):
other, there's black people whohave this experience, and
there's people who have allthese different experiences.
None of it makes my experienceany less valid, or any less
painful. And my experiencedoesn't need to compare. It
doesn't have to be a, I knowwhat you're talking about
because I've had someone calledme a name when I was 10. I think
(23:35):
that if we can help peopleunderstand that, they can have
their their pain and theirexperience, and that doesn't
mean that we understand and italso doesn't mean that giving
people space to be who they arewithout having to explain
themselves, that that's notracism, that's survival,
(23:57):
thriving. That's what's neededwhen white people start to
realize that the whiteness isthe norm and that there is a
need for separate spaces - Ithink that hopefully will be a
sign towards progress.
But I think there's so much ofmine, like this has to be mine
and I have to keep all the thepower or the money or the
whatever else. I have to feelsome sense of betterness - I
(24:23):
meaning the global I, not justme. If I give up, if someone
else gets something, then I'mgiving away something rather
than let's bring all of us up.
And also realizing that likewhat whiteness has always been
is not something to aspire to.
Like there's this whole myth isthat, we've got it figured out
(24:46):
and like people should want tobe like us. No. I mean, I'm not
saying Oh, there's good whitepeople. I'm not saying that but
there's like whiteness versusthere's obviously people of all
races who are wonderful peoplebut whiteness itself is like
myth that it's not real. Andit's real, because it's
experienced, but it's not right.
And so I just think that givingyourself the space to care for
(25:13):
yourself. And if you need toleave the country, or if you
need to do what you need to doto have peace and joy in your
day and connect with your familyand your job, and then do that,
and deleting the comments ratherthan engaging in them - that's
an act of resistance. And forwhite people listening, when
(25:34):
they hear someone saying, Oh,this or that happened because of
race. Not just give them thebenefit of the doubt, but to
believe them immediately, andhonor that and name that, I
think, will go a long way, atleast on a day to day level. I
don't know how much that helpsthe system just yet but I think
that we all have the right to gothrough our day feeling valued.
(25:55):
Most people learn whatmicroaggressions are and what
they are, and why. Not just Oh,I shouldn't say that because I
was told by some politicallycorrect person that I'm not
supposed to say that. Butactually understanding the
impact of that behavior on aliving human being, then maybe
that's steps in the rightdirection, where you can go to
(26:19):
work and feel safe. It's likethe bare minimum. It's
ridiculous that we even have tobe talking about it but you
should be able to go to work andfeel safe and valued and you can
contribute and people want youto. Did I answer your question,
I feel like I'm rambling at thispoint.
Toni Henson (26:39):
You're making a lot of sense and I don't think that
we have enough of these candidconversations because this takes
courage to have these types ofconversations, even if we
disagree. A lot of folks don'twant to have them. So I applaud
you, Jill for wanting to atleast have the conversation, not
(27:01):
only wanting to have theconversation, but the want to
put your life's work into tryingto make it better, because I
really do believe that ourhealing begins outside of the
black community. It startsthere. But I also think that
simultaneously, we have work todo to counter all of the trauma
(27:25):
that we've experienced over thelast 400 years. So we do a trip
to Ghana, every year, my husbandand I, where we take people back
to connect to their roots. Andwe do naming ceremonies and
healing ceremonies last year, 37people have signed up for this
(27:46):
year. And we were going to dountil nobody wants to go
anymore. We think it's a hugepart of taking back our
narrative and understanding fromwhere we came. So how can people
take advantage of the work thatyou do and was it designed for?
Dr. Wener (28:05):
So I first off, I just want to say your trip to
Ghana sounds amazing. And Ithink I'm just kind of comparing
that to like medical missionwork, like the whole like white
savior thing. Returning backthere, it was such a connection
and a reclaiming. I loveeverything about what you're
doing with that. So the coursethat I created with Dr.
(28:29):
Clairborne, initially, wedesigned it for white people to
develop resilience, to build thetools to get uncomfortable,
because these are all going tobe uncomfortable. I'm getting
much better at beinguncomfortable. And there's still
times where I'm just but that'swhere I know I'm in the right
place. So how can we sit inthat? How can we lean into that
discomfort rather than shuttingdown or getting defensive? Or
(28:51):
doing all the things that you'veexperienced? And how do we like
behave ourselves? How do wecomport ourselves and like not
do the micro aggressions andbecome aware of what those are
and communication skill. Sothat's what started but what we
realize along the way is the fewthings - first off, the tools
that we teach are helpful foreverybody. So self compassion is
(29:13):
one of the things in there,tapping, which is the emotional
freedom technique, which is I'ma practitioner in that, that's
been incredible. It's a toolthat I use in multiracial spaces
to like, when the works gettingreally intense, we use tapping
to kind of help ourselves withthe overwhelming and the despair
that can go along with it. And alot of these tools can be used
(29:36):
for self care in the same waythat you're deciding who you're
going to comment, reply tocomments, and if who you're
going to engage with, it'sanother form of self care. So
these tools can be used for selfcare and they can also one of
the one of the millions of greatthings that Maisha contributes
is how it's been internalizedfor her. So how this culture,
(29:57):
the system of racism hasimpacted her in how she sees
herself and how to startdismantling that. So how
perfectionism might show up inher parenting. How only one
right way. Do you want tocomment?
Toni Henson (30:16):
I do. As a person of African descent, living in
America, I have observedextremely harsh parenting, out
of the fear of letting ourchildren loose in a world that
(30:39):
has zero tolerance for mistakes.
It is emotionally crippling tosee it, and to do it, and we've
been guilty of it. And it isprobably the most painful part
of being black in America.
Dr. Wener (30:56):
Thank you for sharing that. That has come up around
perfectionism a lot. I hear alot of that, the way it's
internalized, and also thatunattainable standard that you
can try and try and never getto. That perfectionism really
strikes a chord with people alot. So kind of getting back to
the course, it allows, I thinkit names for black folks and
(31:19):
other people of color, butparticularly for black people
like it names like, Oh, that'swhat that was, I've experienced.
So that was a thing, that wasn'tjust me inventing it. That's why
and that's how it showed up andhere's what I can do to kind of
realize it and not perpetuate itin a way from my own place of
trauma. So I think we've, we'veredesigned the course recently,
(31:44):
to really try to reflect toexplicitly say, Okay, if you are
a white person, it can help youwith this. If you are in another
other identities, here's how itmay help you, here's what it may
offer to you. I think it's stillprimarily, it's an anti racism
course so it's primarily goingto be directed for for people
who need to learn the most aboutracism, which is white people to
(32:06):
in order to like dismantle it inthemselves. But we wanted anyone
taking the course to feel likethey're heard and that they're
part of the process, and thatthey can get something out of
it, and to not have it kind ofre traumatize them, if they're
taking the course as part of aworkplace training, that there's
a place for them, as well. Andit's not just a white center
(32:27):
thing, but it's for everybody.
Toni Henson (32:29):
Now is it self study?
Dr. Wener (32:33):
Yeah. So it's self study, it's online, pre
recorded, and for people whowant to bring it to their
workplace. We do have grouppricing and stuff and we also do
some facilitation, if there's agroup that wants to do it. So
included in the big group,Maisha and I will do a
facilitated zoom call where wecan help people take a deeper
(32:53):
dive into some of the skillsthat we teach or any of the
other stuff in there as well.
Tony (32:58):
Thank you so much, Jill, it's been very insightful. The
information you provided, it'svery encouraging that you and
your partner are doing thiswork. And I wish you guys all
success, and continue doing whatyou're doing.
Dr. Wener (33:13):
Thank you for having me on and for asking the tough
questions. I know I couldn'tanswer all of them. But I hope
that this dialogue continues,and thank you for allowing me
into your space. Honestly, Ifeel honored that you would even
consider having the conversationwith me.
Tony (33:31):
Well, the way I look at it, the work has to be done. We
can't keep ignoring each other.
It would self destructive we do,we want to coexist in this world
society in this country. Somework has to be done. And it's
unfortunate that this countryhas decided to just let bygones
be bygones and not addressed theissue. Just imagine, and I know
(33:54):
a lot of folks that get overslavery, get over it. But if if
you if you were a slave back in1865, and someone said, you're
free, you're free to go, nocounseling, no food, no
clothing, you just free to go.
And we're still living with theresults of that treatment. Just
(34:19):
you're on your own and wanderaround. And then we have to deal
with all the other things thattry to put you back in your
place - vagrancy laws, Jim Crowlaws, truancy laws - all kinds
of stuff that put you back inprison and make you another
slave again, and we had toovercome all of that. And it's
(34:40):
only been a little over 150years, what we talking about. We
have some successes, but thedehumanization of black people
as really taking its toll. Blackfolks have to recognize that and
we also have to free ourselvesfrom that trauma as we live in
(35:02):
this space. We just asked thatsome consideration be given this
a long way up from slavery tocorner phrase, big Gregory. But
it seems that the task is soenormous that nothing can can be
done. That's why I reallyappreciate you taking the time.
Because the damage that's beendone to us, we're dealing with
(35:26):
ourselves. It will be great ifwe had a country that could take
the lead and say, Look, this isa problem. How can we work this
out? And without disapairing,that it's a handout to blacks,
that's going to irritate makewhite folks upset. Because
racism has affected everybody.
There's something there'ssomething in there for whites to
(35:48):
get to, I don't know what whatthat is shaped like what it
looks like. But through thisjourney, we all been suffering
through it. And it comes out indifferent ways. It comes out and
white supremacy, it comes outand white nationalism, it comes
out and fear and hate, speakingfrom a right person's
(36:08):
perspective, and that's onlyjust me looking at it from the
outside looking in. I reallydon't know. Some type of
counseling or meditate, we needsomething for both groups to go
through to come out on the otherside of this without thinking if
I get a gain, it's taken awayfrom you. But if we can come to
the understanding that mentallyand socially, racism has
(36:34):
affected everybody, and we haveto come to some common ground
and everybody has to say, Hey,let's work at this. I'm sorry
for getting on a soapbox. Icould go on and on and off.
Dr. Wener (36:51):
I can listen all day.
I totally agree. I know, we werekind of like, wrapping up, but
but I feel like the experienceof white people, I think you
asked me this. I think it'sracism is so bad. Oh my god,
it's so horrible that it's goingon out there. And there's the
racism is bad, we should be fun.
But there's a I think a lot oftimes a lack of looking inside
(37:15):
of how we're contributing and Ithink that's maybe what
perpetuates. I don't want tolike center whiteness here. I
think most white people aregoing to say that racism is
horrible, and they want everyoneto have the same rights, and
they want all of that. And theracism is out there. It is this
problem out in a different placethat I think is that and
therefore I don't have any workto do. And I think that that's
(37:37):
probably the experience, atleast most white people that I'm
that I interact, are going tohave. A denial of bias, like a
denial of, Oh, I have the fear,Oh, I have the this thought. It
sucks to say that. And it sucksto acknowledge that to myself
that Oh my god, I might bescared of a black man's walking
towards me on the street. But ifwe pretend it's not there, then
(38:01):
nothing gets better. But if Ican say, Oh, look at that, like
I'm having this fear response.
Isn't that ridiculous? There'snothing for me to be scared of
but honoring, acknowledging thatI'm having it, I think that's by
getting in that uncomfortablestuff. Talking about the stuff
that we don't have the feelings,that we don't want to talk about
the biases that we don't want totalk about. That's how we bring
it to a lot of it's at thesurface, obviously, but like,
(38:24):
that's how we bring it to thesurface in ourselves, and then
start to see how it'sinteracting in my life, how it's
controlling me in ways that I'mnot even aware of. So everything
you're saying, yes, I feel likethat intergenerational trauma.
Slavery, it's got a differentname today, I guess. But it's
(38:45):
still very much impacting and Ithink for people to think it's
not that we've moved pastanything, I think is harmful and
ignorant and everything, like,it's not just not understanding
it's actually harmful. So Ithank you for your soapbox. And
I thank you for sharing. Again,for allowing me to be part of
(39:08):
this conversation with you. I'lltalk to you all day long. So if
you ever want me to talk toanybody or be a part of anything
you're doing I would be.
Toni Henson (39:17):
Thank you, Dr. Jill Wener. The course is called
Conscious Anti-racism (39:23):
Tools for self discovery, Acountability
and Meaningful change. It is foranybody who wants to heal and
live in an anti racist world. Wethank you so much for being part
of the Black Family Table Talktoday. That's what's up!
Tony (39:52):
That concludes this week's talk. We hope you found some
tools to add to your strongblack family toolbox. And be
sure to sign up for freesubscription at
BlackFamilyTableTalk.com forspecial discounts and product
offers reserved exclusively foryou.
Toni Henson (40:10):
Don't forget to tell a friend about our weekly
podcasts and blogs available onApple Pod, Google, Pandora,
Spotify, and everywhere podcastsare heard. Under Section 107 of
the Copyright Act 1976.
allowance is made for fair usefor purposes such as criticism,
comment, news reporting,teaching, scholarship and
(40:30):
research. fair use is a usepermitted by a copyright statute
that may otherwise beinfringing. The news and
opinions expressed on blackfamily tabletop do not
necessarily reflect variousplatform hosts. All topics are
for entertainment purposes onlydiscretion to strongly advise
and all commentary is allegedThis is a Micah six eight media
(40:52):
LLC production.
By trading in aspects of our own culture are what
(00:05):
makes us individuals and whatmakes us unique. By trading that
in to get access to whiteness,because the definition of
whiteness has expanded overtime, for convenience,
basically. By trading that andwe kind of -she calls it a soul
death, like we have to trade inpart of our soul to get access
to this whiteness thing and itjust blew my mind when she
(00:27):
talked about that.
Tony (00:30):
Welcome to season seven of Black Family Table Talk. We are
your host, Toni and Tony. Joinus on our journey to discover
ways to build a strong blackfamily.
Toni Henson (00:39):
This season is sponsored by ABTF travels. Join
us as we travel each year beyondborders off the beaten path, to
immerse ourselves in culturesthat celebrate our Pan African
heritage. Each journey isspecially curated to provide you
with what promises to be abucket list transformative
(01:03):
experience.
Tony (01:04):
I can't wait until we go again. In the meantime, we have
a very special guest joining usat the kitchen table this week.
Listen up.
Toni Henson (01:16):
Welcome to Black Family Table Talk. Dr. Wener. We
are excited to have you.
Tony (01:24):
Yes, we are.
Dr. Wener (01:25):
You can call me Jill.
I put the MD up there justbecause sometimes people care
but I don't actually care. See?
Toni Henson (01:32):
Well, you have a very interesting background. I
was very intrigued and wanted toget you on the show because
normally, we have people whohave experience the trauma of
living while black in the UnitedStates. So I wanted to get a
different perspective and getyour take on anti racism and
(01:56):
this movement that you have sobravely, courageously been
working to counter act. So tellus how you got started in your
journey to combat racism in theUS?
Dr. Wener (02:10):
Well, first off, thank you for having me, I did
have to double check. I waslike, do know that I'm white,
right? So I do appreciate youhaving me on the show. I have a
lifetime of whiteness, like Icertainly didn't like lived my
whole life the way that I wish Ihad. I don't think I was like
(02:31):
the worst that could be but Iwas your typical, liberal, well
intending white person whodidn't think they were racist.
That's me to a tee. So when Ihear people saying that, I know
you and I continue to be that,obviously. I think for me, when
it really, really started was in2016, I wrote a blog post
(02:55):
because I had done my meditationteacher training. I thought I
had all the spiritual wisdom tooffer people. I was like, we're
gonna be okay, I promise. It gota lot of really great response
but then a friend of mine, who'sa sociologist, actually, a white
woman, sent me a message thatsaid, Hey, I thought you might
(03:16):
want to read this article. Ithink your blog post is really
privileged. And the name of thearticle was dear white people,
please stop telling me it'sgonna be okay. That was
literally the name of my, myblog post. So I had an extremely
defensive reaction to myself,just because we were on
Messenger, and I think I wasactually out of the country at
(03:37):
the time, but I was like, Who isshe? Why did she think? I'm not
racist! What does she mean? Allof that. But then I was like,
Well, I don't want to be that.
Whether she's saying, I didn'tknow the term "privilege". I
obviously lived it. So I knewit. But I didn't know what like
specifically that it was calledthat and how it played out. I
started reading and I realizedthat she was totally right. And
so I just started learning andreading and reading and
(03:59):
learning. For a really longtime, it was a personal journey.
I never thought I'd be teachingpeople about it and think I had
necessarily anything to teach.
Then I went on an allies andaction ally ship retreat in
(04:19):
2019, led by Leslie Mac, andPaige Ingram. And it was
basically lots of amazingworkshops, and then meeting
amongst each other andstruggling and learning and then
struggling again, and thenlearning and doing all of that.
And as we're going through wewere talking about the
(04:40):
characteristics of whitesupremacy culture, that worked
by Team Oakland and KennethJones and how we recognize it in
our bodies. I'm sorry, thatwasn't how we did, it was how do
you recognize that in your life?
How do you recognize things likedefensiveness, perfectionism and
the right to comfort and all ofthese. Like characteristics of
this culture that we all live inand are impacted in different
(05:01):
ways. For me, I was like, I'm ameditation teacher and a tapping
practitioner. So I'm all aboutthe mind and body connection.
And I feel like to some success,use these tools to help me
process the way those come up inme. So when I'm defensive, I may
get defensive but then I'm alsogoing to kind of connect with
that and use it as a moment tolearn. So I don't always get it
right at all. But I kind of hadthis aha moment with the
(05:24):
guidance of the women leadingthe retreat. Maybe I can teach
white people to use some toolsto lean into this discomfort, to
not shut down. And that's how Ibegan. That's how conscious anti
racism began. And it didn'treally flourish until I met my
partner, who's a black woman,Dr. Misha Clairborne, another
(05:45):
physician, and we kind of putour experiences and expertise
and energy together, and that iswhat eventually became the
conscious anti racism that wehave today. Long answer.
Tony (06:01):
No. Very good answer.
Could you give us a little bitabout your background? I
understand you're a medicaldoctor. You practice internal
medicine and you did that for 10years? Are you still doing that?
Dr. Wener (06:16):
No, I actually left in 2015 unintentionally, but I
And now you're into theconscious health meditation and
went into teacher training inIndia for a few months and had
the opportunity to live overseasin China. And then by the time I
tapping and rest technique. Now,when you started doing that, did
had been out for six plusmonths, I had another skill that
I could actually do. I decidednot to go back. It didn't feel
like it resonated.
(06:47):
that kind of lead into exposingyou to anti racism, or that was
separate.
It felt separate at the time. Ithink actually looking back,
there's a whole host of the waysthat whiteness shows up in the
(07:07):
wellness, space and culturalappropriation and toxic
positivity and all sorts ofstuff. So I think that it is
very intimately tied into thesystem of white supremacism and
racism. But at the time, I wasjust like, we're all the
typical, we're all one thing. Iwouldn't think I was at, I was
(07:28):
never like, an All Lives Matterperson. That wasn't me. But
certainly, we're all connected,but not actually connecting. So
I think on some levels, it gaveme the tools to do the deeper
work, but on some levels thatalso initially kind of separated
me because I was like, I'mmaking the world a better place.
I'm a meditation teacher. So andas a doctor, I don't think any
(07:50):
doctor is gonna be like, Yeah,but issue with racism, like, the
system is so broken, and I don'teven think we realize how
indoctrinated we are. I don'tthink I saw that at the time.
The meditation and the tapping,absolutely helped me kind of
process stress in a differentway. So that when I started to
(08:10):
realize that there was an issuethat I needed to contend with
personally and out in the world,I was able to regulate myself,
and I was able to do it in ahopefully, productive way. But I
think sometimes if we hideourselves in wellness practices,
as white people, we can pretendlike everything is fine, and
(08:33):
that we don't have a problem. SoI think the answer to your
question is, yes, and no, Iguess.
Toni Henson (08:40):
It's interesting that you talk about toxic
positivity. Can you elaborate onthat term? That's the first time
Dr. Wener (08:48):
Oh, yeah. It's such a good term. It's the blanketing
I've ever heard it.
over of negative emotions, witheverything should be okay, let's
all just focus on what's happyand positive, without honoring
lived experience. So there'sdefinitely room in this world
(09:08):
for affirmations. And there'sdefinitely room in this world
for thinking positive of coursebut if someone comes to me and
says, Oh, I'll just this oneexample is popping into my head.
So I have one of my tappingclients who was working through
being abused as a child -molested by a family member, and
(09:29):
she's going through it and I wastrying to be like, Well, but you
chose this life and you learnedand you learn the lessons from
it that you needed to learn. Shewas like, Nah, I'm not accepting
that, I did not choose this. Ithink that the toxic positivity
is this need to like, find alesson and everything and, and
kind of not honor people's pain.
I think it happens in all alldifferent places, and all
(09:53):
different ways, and it's reallyrampant in the wellness
community. I think it stems froma discomfort with people's pain,
and an unwillingness to sit withthat, and not having the skills
or the tools or theunderstanding to do that.
Toni Henson (10:12):
Where's the hope?
Because Trayvon Martin wasassassinated in 2012. And I
dedicated my life to comfortingand healing African Americans.
And I do that in several ways. Istarted the a theatre festival,
so that we can tell our storiesand heal because I truly believe
(10:32):
in the end the power of ourhealing. And, we started this
podcast in 2020, and our ownstruggles to stay together as a
married couple with all of theexternal influences that we have
and the struggles that we havewith raising children. So I
stopped trying to teach whitefolks about our pain, and kind
(10:57):
of got free from that and justkind of threw my hands up and
said, Okay, it's not gettingbetter the hostility is toxic.
So where's the hope?
Dr. Wener (11:12):
I think it's a great question. And I want to just
thank you for sharing yourexperience, and your purpose and
your why and recognizing theneed to separate yourself for
your own self care. I thinkthat's important. A lot of white
people don't get that, that wecan happen dangerous, even just
(11:36):
existing. I think the hope isthe more we learn about trauma,
and maybe, the more we learnabout trauma, the more we
realize that trauma can be heal.
And trauma shows up in differentplaces, in different ways, with
different people. And if we can,in some way start to heal our
nation's trauma. There's likeindividual trauma, there's
(11:58):
nations trauma, there's, andthere's people doing amazing
work, there's people doingCymatics and trauma work, and a
lot of that. And so I think thatthe collective consciousness as
as it's like, spiraling out ofcontrol into horribleness, it's
also growing and expanding. Ifeel like, my hope is that the
people doing amazing work, thework that you're doing, and the
(12:19):
theater that you're doing, andthat will continue to give
people places to heal and sharetheir stories. And then when
people start to understand, Hey,there's, there's work that needs
to be done that can somehowtriumph. I do feel a little
hopeless right now, just becauseso many bad things, macro, bad
things keep happening, like overand over and over again. But I
(12:40):
do feel like I'm in communitywith a lot of really incredible
people who are not only blackpeople doing this work. I feel
there is community in that way.
I think we have to just, wewhite people be really willing
to get uncomfortable, and justget in there and let our egos
(13:00):
go. That's hard to do when youhaven't had to do that. When you
haven't had that, to build thatresilience. So I don't know if
that build any hope. But I thinkthere's a lot of amazing things
in this world. And I'm just kindof seeing like the response to
the Supreme Court about to turnover Roe v. Wade, and, and the
(13:24):
reproductive justice communitycoming together and, and
community care. It's bringingout the best in a lot of ways
and I think without hope we wedon't have much, so I feel like
things have to change. And Ihope that they will.
Tony (13:42):
While I was excited about the work that you're doing, and
through working with yourpatients, by anti racism, you
talk about meditation, and I'mjust curious to know, what are
you your thoughts on how racismaffects black people differently
than affects white people? Andare there any common
(14:05):
similarities between the twogroups? Or we're in two
different worlds and there's noconnection?
Dr. Wener (14:13):
That's a really good question. And I want to answer
it carefully. I think thatthere's no way for white people
to understand the livedexperience of what black people
experience. I can read about it.
I can have friendships andrelationships and talk to people
in here and were in witness itbut I can't know what it's like.
On that extent, I'm never gonnaknow.
Tony (14:33):
I don't want it from that perspective. I want it from a
white person's perspective.
Racism affect both of us. Sowhat's the damage done to white
folks? It's obvious what blackfolks are going through. Is it
just a mindset? Is it just whiteprivilege? It's a byproduct of
it. Or is there a mental state?
Dr. Wener (14:57):
Yeah, I think it's destroying everything. I think
racism is absolutely harmingwhite people in a different way.
While I don't have the livedexperience of it, I can see and
there's a wonderful book calledThe Some of uU by Heather McGee,
that talks about the way thatbecause of racism, white people
have suffered predatory loans,home mortgages, health, health
(15:21):
care - refusal to expanduniversal health care because of
not wanting to give Black peopleaccess. It's underneath
everything. Reproductive rights,student loans, public schools,
all of it is was designed bywhite people to keep their own
(15:42):
privilege, keep their own thingsand keep other people out,
whoever they perceive isdifferent. But it ends up coming
back and harming them. So it itharms us, not just on those kind
of practical levels, but I thinkit destroys our souls. I don't
even want to say a little bit, Ithink a lot. And Ruby Sales is a
(16:04):
incredible activist and shetaught me, not directly to me,
but that by trading in aspectsof our own culture, or what
makes us individuals, and whatmakes us unique, by trading that
in to get access to whiteness,because the definition of
whiteness has expanded overtime, for convenience,
(16:25):
basically. By trading that in,we kind of, she calls it a soul
death, we have to trade in partof our soul to get access to
this whiteness thing. And itjust blew my mind when she
talked about that. So I thinkthat we all suffer, and we are
all impacted by it. And I thinkit's going to take a lot more
(16:48):
awakening to really for whitepeople to really see it. It's
almost like doubling downagainst everything that's being
shown of how harmful it is. It'slike no, I have to cling to this
mindset. I don't want to comeoff like I'm better than other
white people. I'm not.
Tony (17:05):
How does racism manifests itself and your life and white
people's life? I mean, is thatwhere the fear comes from? Why
is there fear? Why is there needto always squash the gains of
black people? Your privilege,you have enough. Well, you have
(17:27):
the opportunity. Not that whitefolks don't have struggles. We
all know it different struggles.
But it seems like there's acollective effort to stop the
progress of black people. Isthat connection to your work to
why that is?
Dr. Wener (17:46):
Yeah. The way that has made sense for me is if you
think about the culture thatupholds racism, so not just
racism itself, but like whitesupremacy culture. The culture
of defensiveness andperfectionism, and there's all
these different characteristicsthat's what I was mentioning
before that work by time open.
Like individualism, right tocomfort. I like this belief that
(18:07):
I have the God given right to becomfortable at all times. If I
think about the culture thatpervades our whole country, is
that and so that culture ofwhite supremacy culture is going
to impact us all in a differentway. But it's going to make
white people think that theyshould be comfortable all the
time, it's going to make whitepeople think that there's a
(18:31):
certain way to do things my way,like this way that is around us.
It's because it's a systemicthing, it's what we're all
raised in it. But we all take itin different ways. As a white
girl, looking at the news andlooking at who's riding the bus
versus who's not riding the busin my neighborhood and, and
seeing the way black people areportrayed in the media and
(18:54):
seeing only white people aroundme at my private school. All of
that, that's going to ingrain inme in a certain way that is it
needs to be disrupted. Until westart disrupting all the
different messages that peopleare receiving, it's not just at
home, it's everywhere. So thereisn't an ingrained, like
implicitly and explicitly taughtsuperiority. That's absolutely
(19:17):
wrong. But it's kind of what'staught. I think that has to be
disrupted. Because white peopleare scared like we're the scary
ones. We're the ones that causeharm yet there's this somehow
belief that, Oh, I'm going to beafraid of the black person
walking on the street, whichdoesn't make any sense. But it's
so ingrained in the culture thatit's hard for white people who
(19:41):
are saying, Oh, I'm not impactedby race, not seeing that they
are absolutely 100% impacted byrace. So I think if you're not
on the receiving end of it, it'sharder to be aware that it's
happening. And that's wherehopefully, some of the work that
I do with Dr. Maisha, bringingawareness to people, that this
is what it looks like. And it'sin all of us. It is not a thing
(20:04):
to point fingers at otherpeople. My hope is that because
most white people aren't goingto be like, consciously like,
Oh, I want to keep black peopledown. But the behaviors in the
system that we participate in tothat. We have to see the bigger
picture and also the role thatwe're playing in it, even if
it's not something a lot ofpeople say, Oh, well, I'm don't
(20:28):
tell racist jokes, or I don't dothese things, therefore, I'm not
part of the system. And I thinkwe are.
Toni Henson (20:37):
I think there are some behaviors that white people
need to be more aware of. Andeven though they may have the
self perception, there arethings like microaggressions.
That's all a part of theoppression, that's all a part of
(20:58):
racism. Even the lack, or theinability to acknowledge when
somebody identifies as black. Ihave a very robust social media
following. And the festival iscalled the Atlanta Black Theatre
Festival, not a day goes bywhere someone white does not
(21:21):
post. I guess, they thinkthey're clever by saying, Oh,
no, I think I want to go to theWhite Theatre Festival, or
calling the festival racist. Soeven just identifying as black
comes with its own set ofhostilities, how do you move
through that because I'm noteven engaging it anymore. I just
(21:44):
delete it. i How do you movethrough that. It's easy for me
to say because my husband's incorporate America, and he
engages with it, and he's thestrongest person I know. My
children are in theseenvironments but I had to
protect after the insurrection,I left the country because I
(22:04):
could not take it. I guess it'smore of a comment but what do
you do when you can't evenidentify as black. And I know
your work is, you're an ally andan empathizer. So I get your
position, but I am. Can yourespond?
Dr. Wener (22:24):
Absolutely. Again, thank you for sharing what
you've been through and I justwant to honor and acknowledge
everything that you're sayingand all of your experiences. I
think a lot of times there'slike No, you're not experiencing
that, or Oh, you're playing therace card And you're not. I just
want to say that, I think on amicro level, I think if White
(22:49):
people can learn, and it's notjust white people, I think other
non black people of color,there's work to be done by
everybody in terms of antiblackness. I think if we can
learn to let be like, Okay, Ihave this lived experience me as
Jill, like I am a white woman. Iam Jewish woman. So I've
experienced some degree ofsomething. Also there's a whole
(23:14):
other, there's black people whohave this experience, and
there's people who have allthese different experiences.
None of it makes my experienceany less valid, or any less
painful. And my experiencedoesn't need to compare. It
doesn't have to be a, I knowwhat you're talking about
because I've had someone calledme a name when I was 10. I think
(23:35):
that if we can help peopleunderstand that, they can have
their their pain and theirexperience, and that doesn't
mean that we understand and italso doesn't mean that giving
people space to be who they arewithout having to explain
themselves, that that's notracism, that's survival,
(23:57):
thriving. That's what's neededwhen white people start to
realize that the whiteness isthe norm and that there is a
need for separate spaces - Ithink that hopefully will be a
sign towards progress.
But I think there's so much ofmine, like this has to be mine
and I have to keep all the thepower or the money or the
whatever else. I have to feelsome sense of betterness - I
(24:23):
meaning the global I, not justme. If I give up, if someone
else gets something, then I'mgiving away something rather
than let's bring all of us up.
And also realizing that likewhat whiteness has always been
is not something to aspire to.
Like there's this whole myth isthat, we've got it figured out
(24:46):
and like people should want tobe like us. No. I mean, I'm not
saying Oh, there's good whitepeople. I'm not saying that but
there's like whiteness versusthere's obviously people of all
races who are wonderful peoplebut whiteness itself is like
myth that it's not real. Andit's real, because it's
experienced, but it's not right.
And so I just think that givingyourself the space to care for
(25:13):
yourself. And if you need toleave the country, or if you
need to do what you need to doto have peace and joy in your
day and connect with your familyand your job, and then do that,
and deleting the comments ratherthan engaging in them - that's
an act of resistance. And forwhite people listening, when
(25:34):
they hear someone saying, Oh,this or that happened because of
race. Not just give them thebenefit of the doubt, but to
believe them immediately, andhonor that and name that, I
think, will go a long way, atleast on a day to day level. I
don't know how much that helpsthe system just yet but I think
that we all have the right to gothrough our day feeling valued.
(25:55):
Most people learn whatmicroaggressions are and what
they are, and why. Not just Oh,I shouldn't say that because I
was told by some politicallycorrect person that I'm not
supposed to say that. Butactually understanding the
impact of that behavior on aliving human being, then maybe
that's steps in the rightdirection, where you can go to
(26:19):
work and feel safe. It's likethe bare minimum. It's
ridiculous that we even have tobe talking about it but you
should be able to go to work andfeel safe and valued and you can
contribute and people want youto. Did I answer your question,
I feel like I'm rambling at thispoint.
Toni Henson (26:39):
You're making a lot of sense and I don't think that
we have enough of these candidconversations because this takes
courage to have these types ofconversations, even if we
disagree. A lot of folks don'twant to have them. So I applaud
you, Jill for wanting to atleast have the conversation, not
(27:01):
only wanting to have theconversation, but the want to
put your life's work into tryingto make it better, because I
really do believe that ourhealing begins outside of the
black community. It startsthere. But I also think that
simultaneously, we have work todo to counter all of the trauma
(27:25):
that we've experienced over thelast 400 years. So we do a trip
to Ghana, every year, my husbandand I, where we take people back
to connect to their roots. Andwe do naming ceremonies and
healing ceremonies last year, 37people have signed up for this
(27:46):
year. And we were going to dountil nobody wants to go
anymore. We think it's a hugepart of taking back our
narrative and understanding fromwhere we came. So how can people
take advantage of the work thatyou do and was it designed for?
Dr. Wener (28:05):
So I first off, I just want to say your trip to
Ghana sounds amazing. And Ithink I'm just kind of comparing
that to like medical missionwork, like the whole like white
savior thing. Returning backthere, it was such a connection
and a reclaiming. I loveeverything about what you're
doing with that. So the coursethat I created with Dr.
(28:29):
Clairborne, initially, wedesigned it for white people to
develop resilience, to build thetools to get uncomfortable,
because these are all going tobe uncomfortable. I'm getting
much better at beinguncomfortable. And there's still
times where I'm just but that'swhere I know I'm in the right
place. So how can we sit inthat? How can we lean into that
discomfort rather than shuttingdown or getting defensive? Or
(28:51):
doing all the things that you'veexperienced? And how do we like
behave ourselves? How do wecomport ourselves and like not
do the micro aggressions andbecome aware of what those are
and communication skill. Sothat's what started but what we
realize along the way is the fewthings - first off, the tools
that we teach are helpful foreverybody. So self compassion is
(29:13):
one of the things in there,tapping, which is the emotional
freedom technique, which is I'ma practitioner in that, that's
been incredible. It's a toolthat I use in multiracial spaces
to like, when the works gettingreally intense, we use tapping
to kind of help ourselves withthe overwhelming and the despair
that can go along with it. And alot of these tools can be used
(29:36):
for self care in the same waythat you're deciding who you're
going to comment, reply tocomments, and if who you're
going to engage with, it'sanother form of self care. So
these tools can be used for selfcare and they can also one of
the one of the millions of greatthings that Maisha contributes
is how it's been internalizedfor her. So how this culture,
(29:57):
the system of racism hasimpacted her in how she sees
herself and how to startdismantling that. So how
perfectionism might show up inher parenting. How only one
right way. Do you want tocomment?
Toni Henson (30:16):
I do. As a person of African descent, living in
America, I have observedextremely harsh parenting, out
of the fear of letting ourchildren loose in a world that
(30:39):
has zero tolerance for mistakes.
It is emotionally crippling tosee it, and to do it, and we've
been guilty of it. And it isprobably the most painful part
of being black in America.
Dr. Wener (30:56):
Thank you for sharing that. That has come up around
perfectionism a lot. I hear alot of that, the way it's
internalized, and also thatunattainable standard that you
can try and try and never getto. That perfectionism really
strikes a chord with people alot. So kind of getting back to
the course, it allows, I thinkit names for black folks and
(31:19):
other people of color, butparticularly for black people
like it names like, Oh, that'swhat that was, I've experienced.
So that was a thing, that wasn'tjust me inventing it. That's why
and that's how it showed up andhere's what I can do to kind of
realize it and not perpetuate itin a way from my own place of
trauma. So I think we've, we'veredesigned the course recently,
(31:44):
to really try to reflect toexplicitly say, Okay, if you are
a white person, it can help youwith this. If you are in another
other identities, here's how itmay help you, here's what it may
offer to you. I think it's stillprimarily, it's an anti racism
course so it's primarily goingto be directed for for people
who need to learn the most aboutracism, which is white people to
(32:06):
in order to like dismantle it inthemselves. But we wanted anyone
taking the course to feel likethey're heard and that they're
part of the process, and thatthey can get something out of
it, and to not have it kind ofre traumatize them, if they're
taking the course as part of aworkplace training, that there's
a place for them, as well. Andit's not just a white center
(32:27):
thing, but it's for everybody.
Toni Henson (32:29):
Now is it self study?
Dr. Wener (32:33):
Yeah. So it's self study, it's online, pre
recorded, and for people whowant to bring it to their
workplace. We do have grouppricing and stuff and we also do
some facilitation, if there's agroup that wants to do it. So
included in the big group,Maisha and I will do a
facilitated zoom call where wecan help people take a deeper
(32:53):
dive into some of the skillsthat we teach or any of the
other stuff in there as well.
Tony (32:58):
Thank you so much, Jill, it's been very insightful. The
information you provided, it'svery encouraging that you and
your partner are doing thiswork. And I wish you guys all
success, and continue doing whatyou're doing.
Dr. Wener (33:13):
Thank you for having me on and for asking the tough
questions. I know I couldn'tanswer all of them. But I hope
that this dialogue continues,and thank you for allowing me
into your space. Honestly, Ifeel honored that you would even
consider having the conversationwith me.
Tony (33:31):
Well, the way I look at it, the work has to be done. We
can't keep ignoring each other.
It would self destructive we do,we want to coexist in this world
society in this country. Somework has to be done. And it's
unfortunate that this countryhas decided to just let bygones
be bygones and not addressed theissue. Just imagine, and I know
(33:54):
a lot of folks that get overslavery, get over it. But if if
you if you were a slave back in1865, and someone said, you're
free, you're free to go, nocounseling, no food, no
clothing, you just free to go.
And we're still living with theresults of that treatment. Just
(34:19):
you're on your own and wanderaround. And then we have to deal
with all the other things thattry to put you back in your
place - vagrancy laws, Jim Crowlaws, truancy laws - all kinds
of stuff that put you back inprison and make you another
slave again, and we had toovercome all of that. And it's
(34:40):
only been a little over 150years, what we talking about. We
have some successes, but thedehumanization of black people
as really taking its toll. Blackfolks have to recognize that and
we also have to free ourselvesfrom that trauma as we live in
(35:02):
this space. We just asked thatsome consideration be given this
a long way up from slavery tocorner phrase, big Gregory. But
it seems that the task is soenormous that nothing can can be
done. That's why I reallyappreciate you taking the time.
Because the damage that's beendone to us, we're dealing with
(35:26):
ourselves. It will be great ifwe had a country that could take
the lead and say, Look, this isa problem. How can we work this
out? And without disapairing,that it's a handout to blacks,
that's going to irritate makewhite folks upset. Because
racism has affected everybody.
There's something there'ssomething in there for whites to
(35:48):
get to, I don't know what whatthat is shaped like what it
looks like. But through thisjourney, we all been suffering
through it. And it comes out indifferent ways. It comes out and
white supremacy, it comes outand white nationalism, it comes
out and fear and hate, speakingfrom a right person's
(36:08):
perspective, and that's onlyjust me looking at it from the
outside looking in. I reallydon't know. Some type of
counseling or meditate, we needsomething for both groups to go
through to come out on the otherside of this without thinking if
I get a gain, it's taken awayfrom you. But if we can come to
the understanding that mentallyand socially, racism has
(36:34):
affected everybody, and we haveto come to some common ground
and everybody has to say, Hey,let's work at this. I'm sorry
for getting on a soapbox. Icould go on and on and off.
Dr. Wener (36:51):
I can listen all day.
I totally agree. I know, we werekind of like, wrapping up, but
but I feel like the experienceof white people, I think you
asked me this. I think it'sracism is so bad. Oh my god,
it's so horrible that it's goingon out there. And there's the
racism is bad, we should be fun.
But there's a I think a lot oftimes a lack of looking inside
(37:15):
of how we're contributing and Ithink that's maybe what
perpetuates. I don't want tolike center whiteness here. I
think most white people aregoing to say that racism is
horrible, and they want everyoneto have the same rights, and
they want all of that. And theracism is out there. It is this
problem out in a different placethat I think is that and
therefore I don't have any workto do. And I think that that's
(37:37):
probably the experience, atleast most white people that I'm
that I interact, are going tohave. A denial of bias, like a
denial of, Oh, I have the fear,Oh, I have the this thought. It
sucks to say that. And it sucksto acknowledge that to myself
that Oh my god, I might bescared of a black man's walking
towards me on the street. But ifwe pretend it's not there, then
(38:01):
nothing gets better. But if Ican say, Oh, look at that, like
I'm having this fear response.
Isn't that ridiculous? There'snothing for me to be scared of
but honoring, acknowledging thatI'm having it, I think that's by
getting in that uncomfortablestuff. Talking about the stuff
that we don't have the feelings,that we don't want to talk about
the biases that we don't want totalk about. That's how we bring
it to a lot of it's at thesurface, obviously, but like,
(38:24):
that's how we bring it to thesurface in ourselves, and then
start to see how it'sinteracting in my life, how it's
controlling me in ways that I'mnot even aware of. So everything
you're saying, yes, I feel likethat intergenerational trauma.
Slavery, it's got a differentname today, I guess. But it's
(38:45):
still very much impacting and Ithink for people to think it's
not that we've moved pastanything, I think is harmful and
ignorant and everything, like,it's not just not understanding
it's actually harmful. So Ithank you for your soapbox. And
I thank you for sharing. Again,for allowing me to be part of
(39:08):
this conversation with you. I'lltalk to you all day long. So if
you ever want me to talk toanybody or be a part of anything
you're doing I would be.
Toni Henson (39:17):
Thank you, Dr. Jill Wener. The course is called
Conscious Anti-racism (39:23):
Tools for self discovery, Acountability
and Meaningful change. It is foranybody who wants to heal and
live in an anti racist world. Wethank you so much for being part
of the Black Family Table Talktoday. That's what's up!
Tony (39:52):
That concludes this week's talk. We hope you found some
tools to add to your strongblack family toolbox. And be
sure to sign up for freesubscription at
BlackFamilyTableTalk.com forspecial discounts and product
offers reserved exclusively foryou.
Toni Henson (40:10):
Don't forget to tell a friend about our weekly
podcasts and blogs available onApple Pod, Google, Pandora,
Spotify, and everywhere podcastsare heard. Under Section 107 of
the Copyright Act 1976.
allowance is made for fair usefor purposes such as criticism,
comment, news reporting,teaching, scholarship and
(40:30):
research. fair use is a usepermitted by a copyright statute
that may otherwise beinfringing. The news and
opinions expressed on blackfamily tabletop do not
necessarily reflect variousplatform hosts. All topics are
for entertainment purposes onlydiscretion to strongly advise
and all commentary is allegedThis is a Micah six eight media
(40:52):
LLC production.
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