Short and Shivery

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
cus
low
Hello and welcome to Black Magic Treehouse, the podcast where we like our stories the

(00:40):
same way we like our romantic partners, short and shivery.
My name is Jose and I am but one of your hosts and I'm joined up here in the treehouse with
my esteemed colleague, Mr. Don't Call Me Sugar, Eric.
How you doing, Eric?

(01:00):
Hey, I'm great.
I've never told anybody not to call me sugar.
Oh, shit.
Well, there goes that.
Inaccurate nickname is what I say.
I wonder how accurate it was for all the people who purportedly touted that as their nickname

(01:22):
slash middle name slash whatever you might want to call it.
It's like how many people like can we get this on the record exactly how many people
have called you sugar either explicitly or implicitly?
Can we give a citation on that?
I was going through as I am want to do I was going through old yearbooks on archive.org

(01:47):
the other day and I was saving little ones.
I was saving some pages from it because I thought they were pretty funny.
Would you let this is a let me see.
This has nothing to do with the book.
That's a good time as any but hell no.
But this is the podcast of tangents.

(02:07):
This is from the 1972 South Windsor Connecticut High School yearbook and this is maybe my
favorite entry in the I don't remember doing this in my high school yearbook even senior
year.
But I assume some schools to do this where they have like the person's name and then
it'll be like ambition pet peeve favorite saying what extracurricular things they're

(02:32):
in.
And my favorite was one Audrey Nelson ambition.
Kami Pinko pet peeve daughters of the American Revolution and her favorite saying is a kind
of anticlimactic because my favorite part was the ambition part but favorite saying
well you only live twice.

(02:52):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Not quite as thematically consistent with the first two selections.
But wow it's fun to read through these and just and they printed that.
Yeah but she for some reason she did not show up on picture day so she was on the page of
like all the seniors not pictured and then it has all of their information.

(03:17):
But it's fun to read through all of your books or even modern ones I guess and kind of imagine
like the characters that these people would be in you know the fear street high school
book of their life.
All right.
Yeah I don't recall doing that or I should say seeing that either in my senior year yearbook.

(03:40):
In fact I did us like a low key anarchist move where I did not get my senior picture
taken but I showed up like some kind of hideous meme throughout various pages of the actual

(04:01):
yearbook just like slinking my way through the shadows stuffing cafeteria rolls into
my face and I like that.
I like the air of mystery I think that it generated it's like who was this person.
You know I'm only known as a caption I'm not known as a senior proper in my senior year

(04:22):
yearbook so you know I guess you could on the one hand it's like oh that's sad I don't
have a nice picture you know or memories but I kind of like the way it all turned out in
the end.
I'll say.
Yeah you will say.
So anyway I did very much enjoy that tangent so thank you.

(04:44):
I would say it was short and just a bit shivery to bring it on back to the topic of today's
episode and speaking of you know perhaps shadowy folkloric figures our book slash series although
we're just focusing on the first one in the series spoiler alert is a series that started

(05:06):
with a volume entitled short and shivery 30 chilling tales and this is a book of folklore
folks these are not original stories or not in the kind of garish goofy vein of a fright
time or scary stories for sleepovers or what have you this is digging around in historical

(05:31):
archives musty dusty volumes of forgotten lore and picking out the creepiest ones and
refashioning them for a middle grade audience.
So before I get into my whole thing with this topic Eric just to clarify before we proceed

(05:54):
was this anything that you had previously heard of or were at all aware of and if not
what maybe just give us a little taste of a terrifying taste to quote the last volume
of the series and I feel like we touched on this before maybe so hopefully we're not retreat

(06:15):
retreading on too much ground here what books of folklore do you recall pouring over in
your youth.
Well going through it I read the first one and a couple of the stories were familiar
to me I think just from other sources folktale books that I would pour over that's a good

(06:39):
question there was a time that I got interested in fairy tales which I may have said this
on the are you afraid of the dark episode already was because of that episode where
Bobcat Goldthwait was the Sandman I know I said that because you did your Bobcat Goldthwait
impression I'll pause for you to do it again.
Hello that's my Bobcat Goldthwait impression you know when you just like bump into him

(07:04):
on the street.
It's like he's here in the room with us right now yeah so that in that.
Hi I'm Bobcat Goldthwait.
In that episode they talk about it wasn't really the story itself so much as like in
the preamble they are like talking about how like I don't even remember if they name a
specific fairy tale or if the writers just made this up but they're talking about a fairy

(07:26):
tale where like because you know Frank or whoever is like fairy tales those are for
babies and then one of the other you know Betty Anne or whatever is like no there's
that one where the guy chops up the children with an axe and then he likes spreads the
blood all over the prince's lips so that when the everybody wakes up in the morning they

(07:50):
think the prince ate the children in the night and that kind of stuff so that kind of opened
up a whole world for me of scary fairy tales and I remember going down like I remember
a volume that I had not previously paid attention to as a tough boy who didn't want to read
girly stuff we had a volume in the basement a big thick collection of fairy tales with

(08:13):
a picture of Little Red Riding Hood and on the cover being you know seduced by the big
bad wolf I mean you know being a maybe seduced isn't the right word because I don't want
people to think it was like a bestiality book or something but being way late there's a
a Freudian case for that yeah I read a whole book about what was that called I read a whole

(08:39):
book about like the various permutations of Little Red Riding Hood over the years and
like what they say about you know where we're at with feminism and things like that and
how the story has been twisted and and recontextualized over the years that was an interesting book
if you're interested in fairy tales but for folk tales specifically obviously there was

(09:00):
scary stories to tell in the dark was usually a collection of like different folkloric sources
I don't really remember too many specific ones I mean I guess urban legends are kind
of a form of folklore we've talked about those on the show before too and then I feel like
I remember more stuff in like college like there was a book I went to Columbia College

(09:25):
in Chicago which had Chicago has the Harold Washington Library it's like seven stories
tall and I didn't like my roommates so I would just kind of go hang out there sometimes
for like a full day I remember they had a book called the Screaming Ghost and Other
Stories by Karl Carmer which had a permutation of one of the stories that is in short and

(09:48):
shivery the end well that's that is both like a really cool title for a book and a really
cool name for an Arthur Karl Carmer I like that yeah what it had really good cool illustrations
to if you ever find a copy of it oh yeah what vintage was that book like was it an older

(10:15):
volume it was from fairly recent not that it was probably like 50s or 60s I would guess
not having it in front of me to check oh okay oh nice yeah I noticed I don't know how much
I read through these as a kid when I first got this book which I'll get into in a little

(10:36):
bit but the author of the short and shivery series or I should say the folklorist the
retailer Robert D Sansussi or Suchi I'm not sure how you pronounce it but I always said
Sansussi he includes very detailed story notes or should say source notes at the back of

(11:00):
every volume explaining which volumes of folklore he obtained these stories from and it is interesting
like I said as an adult I don't know if I would have my eyes would have glazed over
these as a kid but it is kind of neat seeing how for some stories when he initially came

(11:24):
across them like there's one Native American story here the hunter in the haunted forest
it's interesting with that one in the source notes it says that it was essentially three
very brief anecdotes more or less unrelated to each other that he came across in a volume

(11:47):
of lore and then he just kind of strung them together into one cohesive narrative and he
talks about in other places how sometimes he like tightens up the pacing to just heighten
the drama so you know these are true retellings and that they're not just reshorting them

(12:08):
for a younger audience and you know paring the language down in some ways these are actually
fairly literate retellings when you compare them to say scary stories to tell in the dark
and in fact it's kind of funny because I remember reading an interview with Alvin Schwartz where

(12:31):
he didn't make mention of any particular author or you know books but in my mind just because
I knew of both of them I couldn't help but feel like it was a it was a pointed criticism
of you know short and shivery maybe in particular or books like it in general where he was explaining

(12:53):
that his whole purpose and setting the stories down the way he did and scary in the scary
stories trilogy was that they were so pared down that they could be easily remembered and
easily retold at gatherings like you know summer camp or sleepovers and he kind of made

(13:16):
a jab at these you know the retellings like you see in short and shivery that are very
literate he's basically I wish I could you know get the maybe the more the more specifics
of what he was saying down better but the spirit of his words was like you know that's
a waste of energy you know and kids I don't know if he went so far as to say that the

(13:38):
you know kids wouldn't necessarily even enjoy it in the same way that they need just kind
of like a nice swift sharp shock of you know once you know basically once upon a time you
know Tom was a farmer and he lived next to a witch and then one day he visited the witch

(14:00):
like you would see in scary stories of Tell in the Dark so I know I just kind of like
weave through maybe three different points there but taking a pit stop at that last one
that I made I'm curious to get your feelings on in general Robert D. Sansusie's I guess
you'd say aesthetic style like what how did you feel reading through this you said you

(14:23):
read the entirety of this book what was what was your kind of take on that in particular
in light of some of the comments that just shared about from Mr. the late departed Mr.
Schwartz.
It's funny to think of Alvin Schwartz as just a real person I know who was just walking
around I like to think that he like every single anecdote that he told whether it was

(14:47):
scary or not he would end it by like and then the dry cleaner lost my ticket.
And then turn to one of your friends and say ah people are like I can't handle coming to
these data parties anymore.

(15:10):
Calm down Alvin Alvin.
And yeah what you what you think.
I don't know that I had too much well I guess I would say I did sort of feel like the literary
style of who wrote this.

(15:30):
Robert D. Sansusie.
Yeah there were some stories particularly the ones that took place in the American South
where I was like I kind of wish that this was still written in like the vernacular that
would have given it a bit more flavor.
His writing style.
That's interesting you say that.
Why is that?

(15:51):
Well the the first volume Short and Shivery I feel like I didn't through the stories that
I reread for this recording and what I remember of the other stories.
I don't recall that any of them did that.
Well and you know you're saying so yourself you read through the whole book and you didn't

(16:13):
see anything like that.
However the second volume more Short and Shivery.
Starts off one of the first stories is from Haiti.
It's called The Duppy and it does something that I don't recall any of the other ones
that I read doing and I'm not sure if I enjoyed that because let's see.

(16:39):
So Jubal is the name of the boy our hero in this story and his aunt passes away and when
the characters speak to each other like the members of his family speak to each other
it's it's in vernacular which I find interesting because yeah exactly all through Short and

(17:01):
Shivery you know we go from like Russia to the American South as you said England.
I mean that kind of goes without saying colonial America and you know yeah there isn't any
like there there's no apostrophes ending words earlier than they would normally to denote

(17:23):
oh we must be in this place but that's not the case in The Duppy because we have some
dialogue that starts off you know Jubal is coming to his mother to ask you know The Duppy
what what is this what is this piece of folklore what's that Duppy he asked his mother something
you don't never want to meet up with she told him something that can take hold of you if

(17:48):
you're not careful or if you don't believe it a ghost but not a ghost his father said
everyone have evil in him but when he alive his brain and his heart control that evil
after the spirit go away that evil part be left behind if it don't have nothing to keep
it from doing whatever it want it go out into the world where do terrible things sound like

(18:16):
an Adam Sandler character so yeah I mean maybe we pretty much all the people at the zoo are

(18:36):
very nice penguin that was my you know I don't know what was worse me attempting to read
that and you know like a Haitian patois or just the fact that it was written in that
way I mean I I think I gave justice I think I did it justice and the sense that it was

(19:00):
like well sure that's slightly painful to read and now it was slightly painful for everyone
to listen to yeah I'm glad I didn't read that volume it is a little strange to make that
choice to not do vernacular on any of the stories that come from white people and yeah
and then suddenly make the jump when you're in Haiti it's like I feel like this would

(19:25):
just make it more authentic and really put people in the in you know give a sense of
the place like I'm looking through the sagua or the segua I don't know I'm sorry from
the first volume I'm just kind of skimming through it you know this is this is 19 yeah

(19:46):
this is 1987 guys so we're still italicizing you know the Spanish words just to let people
know when they're not seeing English so senior don't folks in San Jose know what the segua
is she is a demon and heaven keep you from meeting her on the road yeah so you know pretty
straightforward guys it's just written the way you would hear it in that language if

(20:10):
you were speaking that language so again it's like mr. Sansousi did we really have to change
it when we went to Haiti and it's funny because in his introduction to the second volume he's
like oh I was you know excited to be able to get the chance to do this because that
means I was able to bring stories that I wasn't able to get into the first volume and give

(20:33):
them their chance in the sun and it's like well if this was one of them maybe we should
have just left it where it was at least in this particular in this particular retelling
but you know I don't want to I don't want to be too hard on him just based on that one

(20:55):
example that I said I have more bad stuff to say oh cool cool but no I don't want to
be too hard on him and that light anyway I don't know to what extent that same thing
happened either through the rest of volume two or in the remaining two volumes of the
series hopefully it didn't and if it did you know hopefully it was just for like anthropologically

(21:22):
accurate reasons but I feel kind of dirty just saying that so I just hope that it didn't
happen too much again so anywho so yeah that's that's my retort to your desire that some
of the stories were maybe written a bit more vernacular it's like well here's how it could
have gone and here's how it did go be careful what you wish for exactly but thankfully none

(21:50):
of that happens in the first volume which is going to be take up the width and breadth
of our review for this episode so we showed you we lifted the veil we showed you the the
screaming whores that lay on the other side but now we're going to drop that curtain and
walk slowly and silently back to the volume at hand don't worry gentle listener we got

(22:15):
you we got your back yep moonwalk right back to volume one so anyway what were we talking
about well I was going to say considering that you brought up Alvin Schwartz I was going
to say that my main I feel like every time we do these episodes I'm always like these
are books for children I shouldn't be so hard on them all the time but at the same time

(22:38):
I I'm an excessively negative person so my main takeaway from these books oh hey there
you go my main takeaway is that I think comparing these two scary stories to tell them the dark
series which I would have been reading at the same age that I would get a book like
this out from the library had I seen it these stories by comparison feel very neutered if

(23:07):
I can say that without offending all of the dogs and cats out there and it may have just
been I was curious what your take on that was because I was wondering if I was projecting
a little bit unfairly and I'll tell you why the first story in volume one is the robber
bridegroom which is adapted from a grim fairy tale and the story just to summarize the story

(23:33):
real quick the robber bridegroom is about there's a poor miller who lives in the forest
with his daughter his ambition his life is or his one remaining hope in life is I hope
my daughter marries up so that she can you know have a better life than I can give her
as a poor miller and then a guy happens on by bombing around in his very fine clothing

(23:58):
you know clothing of the finest materials a gentleman's clothing and he's like hey
man your daughter is hot can I marry her and the miller's like you look like you're rich
go right ahead so the woman the daughter goes back to this the guy's den I forget she must
go there without him because she gets there and she meets a maid who lives there like

(24:20):
an old lady and the lady's like doing all this housework and stuff and the lady is sees
her and she's like don't trust this guy he's a murderer and a thief and he leads a whole
band of murderers and thieves he's not rich that stuff he's wearing he stole from people
and then she tells the daughter like go go hide behind those barrels and you'll see all

(24:41):
the proof you need that this guy is not who he says he is so the daughter hides behind
these barrels and in the grim fairy tale what happens is she witnesses the band of marauders
coming home with a young maiden and they proceed to murder her and chop her up into little
pieces in this story I think what happens is that they just come home and they're like

(25:06):
look at all this gold we stole and they put it in like a treasure chest or whatever so
she's like aha they are thieves and then anyway the end of the story is like and then we invite
them to a dinner at my dad's house we say we're gonna feed them and then they sit down
and I forget what the exact mechanism there's some trap at the end where they she reveals

(25:28):
everybody like they're murderers and thieves let me scroll through the book and see if
I can remember it yeah what I think it was a ring right a ring from
the previous victim because oh right made a habit of yes you are correct yeah and then

(25:50):
okay so she recounts the story of what happened but she tells it as if she saw it in a dream
and then the thief is like silence how dare you say that and then yeah she shows everybody
the ring and then the guests at this banquet all sees him and turn him over to the king's

(26:11):
soldiers and they hang him for a time anyway that's the story of the robber right room
but the point of divergence there is that in one version which is the grim version there's
a horrible murderer where a young woman is hacked up to pieces and in this version that
gets removed completely so I think it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth that I may
have unfairly projected onto some of the following stories like you know what did you cut out

(26:35):
of this one to see my mortal enemy San Suzy yeah how do you feel about that yeah I do
think that's fair because as we said also just real quick by comparison the the Alvin

(26:56):
Schwartz stories never pulled their punches with regard to gore they were very much like
no and then this guy got dragged along the ground until his feet burned off and he just
had bloody stumps the end good night kids yeah exactly and that's you know and speaking
of fairy tales I think that's why in addition of course to Stephen Gammill's brain melting

(27:26):
illustrations and paintings for that book I think that's why to Schwartz's credit and
going along with his you know folklorist philosophy that I quoted inadequately from that interview
before I do think he has a point not just for the purposes of being able to share these

(27:49):
stories and retell them with ease or relative ease but something that I think is a special
quality of the original fairy tales Grim or otherwise is that you know it's funny you
see on the internet all the time the you know it's like every couple months or years we

(28:11):
have this realization again that oh my god the original grim fairy tales were some sick
stuff here's a list of 13 of their craziest moments and it all sounds pretty horrible
but the thing that I think really powers them forward the thing that I think really sticks

(28:33):
with people is not necessarily the fact that they're gorefest and the traditional sense
of them or the thinking of them I feel like they're very much akin to something like the
Texas Chainsaw Massacre where you're kind of filling in a lot more than you realize

(28:55):
you are because especially in the fairy tales I don't think it's necessarily that I think
it's a combination it's partly the incident it's the thing that is happening but I think
you know 60 to 70 percent of the power or the effect the power of the effect that's

(29:15):
happening on you is also the delivery and it's the same delivery that Schwartz had in
scary stories of Telling the Dark where it's just very almost matter of fact it's very
blunt and then it just moves on to the next order of business and that's what I think
really gets people and I think that's what really riles them up or impacts them with

(29:41):
the fairy tales it's not just that oh my god you know in the juniper tree the you know
the stepson or the wicked stepmother lures her stepson to look at the bottom of the treasure
you know the trunk to get you know the gold or the fruit or whatever it is and he looks
in and then she slams the lid down and his head comes off and you know it's like wow

(30:04):
that's very shocking but it's not like it's going into extreme detail and saying oh the
rusty lid sliced through his you know neck and the blood was pouring everywhere they
just literally described the incident in the barest terms more or less that oh you know

(30:24):
she closed the lid and his head came off and then she disposed of the body and threw it
in the stew and you know it's like it's just within two sentences but the fact that it's
so brief it's like whoa you know really grabs you by surprise and your mind the gears in
your mind start working through those two sentences and like I said filling in a lot

(30:46):
more than I think people realize and they end up thinking that oh my god the you know
the fairy tales were these blood-drenched fables and and parables but really it was
just that they were very blunt and they were very direct about you know the good and the
bad things that happen to heroes and villains alike.

(31:11):
What say you to that?
Yeah and it kind of also operates on the tales from the crypt covers you know like I remember
hearing that William Gaines you know when they were doing the whole thing about like
the seduction of the innocent can we sell these comic books you know all that that craze

(31:32):
they had the cover that they held up with the woman's like severed head being held up
in frame and like you can see behind like her headless body on the floor and they were
like do you think this cover is in bad taste and he was like no I don't think so well what
would make it in bad taste well if you saw the blood dripping out of her neck I think

(31:53):
it's kind of operates on that same where it's like seeing the aftermath of a thing or seeing
a kind of you know technically bloodless version of something happen is like it does kind of
soften it in a weird way because I was thinking of okay so you remember the story of Harold

(32:15):
from scariest stories the town of the dark now I feel like I remember hearing an audio
book that changed some of the stories around so my memory of the way that the Harold story
ends is that they come across like the neighbors or something see Harold stretching out like
you know some kind of leather thing or whatever and then they realize as they get closer that

(32:39):
it's a bloody human skin and it used to belong to the guy who whatever was tormenting her
I really don't remember anything else about the story is that the way that it ended in
the book so it's two guys they build hair the Harold scarecrow and you know give it
the name of another farmer that they don't care for they're both tormenting it Harold

(33:04):
starts kind of bubbling and bumping around the farmhouse and they're like this is weird
we're gonna leave now and then one of them on the way down the road realizes oh no our
milking stool we left it back at the house this was before you know I guess they installed

(33:28):
a Walmart where they could get as many milking stools as they wanted so they're like wow
we need to get that back so one of the farmers goes back the other guys waiting for him on
the road oh gee so-and-so is taking a long time let me go see if everything's alright
and as he's walking towards the house he sees Harold up on the roof and I think yeah it

(33:50):
says it pretty directly that you know he was just simply stretching a bloody human skin
across you know the thatched roof right yeah yeah so I think that's that's kind of how
you can get away with it is like you don't have the descriptions of like Harold you know
getting a knife and slitting the guy's throat and like peeling all the skin off of the skeleton

(34:11):
it's just sort of like you come in on the aftermath and that's sort of like softens
it enough to where it's like can we let kids read this yeah sure why not why not
we're not sharing all the gory details just a little itty-bit of them but getting back

(34:32):
to your question I think it is a fair assessment of short and chivalry the stories therein
that Robert D San Suzy Suzy's approach and Alan Schwartz's approach are pretty much polar
opposites you get very much a feeling of you know I hate to keep going back to the descriptor

(34:57):
of literary but you know that's how these stories are told you know they have their
fair share of adjectives a lot of characters are fleshed out and given personalities in
to a degree that they certainly were not and you know works like Schwartz's where sometimes

(35:18):
you were lucky if you even got a name you know sometimes it was just the boy met the
man and then the boy went to the house this in I actually reread one of the ones I reread
for the recording was sans Susie's retelling of what's known and Schwartz's first book

(35:43):
as a girl who stood on a grave here it's called scared to death which you know speaking of
critiques it's like really that's what you call the story it's kind of a twist ending
when but hey whatever but yeah going back to what you were saying about oh the American
South sans Susie's retelling takes place in the American South I think they say it's like

(36:08):
ten or so years after the Civil War and yeah there's like the opening scene and you know
the girl who stood on a grave where in almost all of Schwartz's retellings the time and
place is usually very ambiguous you can't quite get a feel for is this like the recent

(36:30):
past or is this the distant past you know I think it's like at a sleepover or some kind
of like you know a young person's party and scary stories to tell in the dark here it's
a ball taking place at a palatial southern plantation and it's you know this coquettish

(36:52):
18 year old know-it-all who is our our protagonist and it goes into a whole thing about how you
know she's the the jewel of the evening all eyes turn to her she's got a bit of us you
know a bit of sass to her and she's got her eyes on this one tall dark guy but he's has

(37:16):
a fiance and there's like a whole interplay between these three of like oh you know mr.
tall dark and handsome was in a carriage with his sweetheart passing the cemetery and oh
the horses got upset we think they saw a ghost oh my lord it was I do declare was the most

(37:37):
frightening thing that has ever happened to me and you know the heroine is like oh well
you know I think that only happens to people who believe in ghosts in the first place oh
well if you're so brave miss know-it-all why don't you go out there tonight and here take
this goblin headed cane and stick it in the ground to prove to us you were there oh will

(38:01):
anybody escort me to the cemetery and all the guys were like oh we're not brave enough
for that sorry you're hot but we're not brave enough for that and she's like well fine I'm
gonna take this cane and you can all see it in the daylight when you have enough bravery
to go to the cemetery so that's like it was like a whole expansive opening scene just

(38:24):
to get us to they dared her to go to the cemetery and just stick a cane into the ground and
I guess it depends on you know your your preferences as a reader as a kid and I haven't even gotten
to how I came into possession of this book not that it's super important but it's a

(38:45):
little bit of a story in its own right but if you were like me and I guess like me back
then in the past and like me now a certain part of me does appreciate that it is you
know fun to read to a certain extent you know sans Susie's taking a little bit of creative

(39:06):
and dramatic license and judging up what could be you know a very staid retelling where it's
just placeholder characters and especially in something like this that has been well
at the time of the writing 1987 that was like five years after the first scary stories of
Tell in the Dark so it might not have been as familiar then as it was now but in any

(39:33):
case you know making the argument that say a lot of people still knew that story in one
form or another it is kind of neat that he said it in a specific time and place and he
really you know gave it a dramatist persona I that maybe other retellings didn't so I

(39:56):
do appreciate that I do appreciate you know the descriptive nature of a lot of these stories
it really does make you feel like you're reading a narrative proper rather than just you know
stumbling across this stuff on some internet listicle that's just giving you the major
beats and it's like and there you go that's the story now go away it is nice that it's

(40:22):
kind of contained within a mini drama of its own right but I don't know how you feel about
that and that light it's literary it's literary cool it's literar literally really cool yeah

(40:43):
yep yeah should we talk about some of this specific well it is funny folklore wise these
stories are kind of repetitive like there are some stories where it's like this is the
same story shape just across two different cultures with two different you know boogie

(41:07):
boogie man and more whatever and there's a lot I noticed while I was reading or maybe
was reminded of like how much these stories were being told not just as entertainment
but also as like to try and tell kids you know this is the correct way to be and this
is the incorrect way to be especially girls I don't want to be too woke about it but there's

(41:33):
a lot of stories about girls being like not the optimal kind of girl as far as men are
concerned and getting punished probably with death for it where's the day and when we need
her for this segment I know right yeah you're right though and I didn't I didn't really
realize that about how how often the ladies are punished in these stories which is kind

(41:58):
of the opposite of you know what you might see you know going back to like tales from
the crypt or you know easy comics in general they certainly had their share of villainesses
but more often than not I think it was you know these CADs and these you know roguish
males as opposed to you know the softer sex but yeah here it's like you know what they

(42:24):
suck they can't get anything right they're too selfish they're you know that's well I
guess that's really the biggest and they're just too selfish too selfish too lazy yeah
too much of a flirt you know all that kind of stuff yeah do you want to talk about any

(42:47):
but do you have any larger points to make I was gonna ask if you wanted to get into
any of the specific stories that stood out to you yeah I think that was my largest point
of distinction with this volume or volumes just that that particular aesthetic approach
to the the telling of the stories so yeah we can dive into some of these bad boys proper

(43:12):
and individually yeah I feel kind of bad because dived into one of them I don't want to get
on is it sansa sees I don't want to get on his case and Susie I don't want to just be
like who's a terrible writer but honestly most of the stories that I remembered that

(43:33):
stood out to me are ones that's like oh this is familiar I've read this before and less
because of like the way that he told them I'm sorry if you're listening sansa see I
don't mean to be too much of a dick about it well as far as that point is concerned
I will let you know that he passed away a number of years ago so anyway it's funny that

(43:56):
you you know mentioned that stuff about the robber bridegroom because that's one of the
stories that I remember the most vividly from this book and maybe that was just by dent
of the fact that it's the first one just to very very quickly backtrack to my personal
history which short and shivery this book and my copy is now free of its paperback cover

(44:23):
I think this just happened today actually I don't recall this coming across this before
but yeah the pages are completely independent of the paperback cover now but this book was
my final direct purchase from the scholastic book fair when I was in elementary school

(44:46):
this was the one and only book that I purchased in fifth grade I remember I can still picture
the room I can picture the time of the day it was like the family night when we went
in the evening it was like in the like technology room you know it was staged in there like just
behind the the media center and I remember just standing there amidst the shelves looking

(45:14):
around and this book was on the bottom shelf of one of the shelves and it just like it
was you know that like cheesy romantic cliche where two people's eyes lock I looked across
the room and I saw this cover staring at me from the bottom of that shelf blue cover Katherine

(45:35):
Colville illustration the big orange Halloweeny font short and shivery and the second I saw
those words you know I'm my dumb joke opening this episode oh you know we it's the same
where we prefer our romantic partners but honestly folks when I saw those words nothing

(45:56):
could have connected to me more immediately than seeing the pairing short and shivery
and I made a beeline across the room and I snatched up that book and my mom purchased
it for me and that was it that was the start of my relationship with this book it was just

(46:19):
like an immediate note of recognition and admiration a charming tale in its own right
and yeah I tore through this thing in the days that followed during fifth grade and
yeah I remember like I don't know it's it does it does seem funny now looking back on

(46:40):
it and hearing your criticism of the first story it's like oh I don't know it kind of
creeped me out you know as a fifth grader you know just just hearing the the very minimal
description that oh yeah they're a band of thieves and murderers but just the whole premise
of this entrapped woman being down below in the cellar while she hears these marauding

(47:04):
jerks upstairs stomping around getting drunk demanding you know the robber bridegroom is
where's my bro where's my bride to be you know it's it did come across as kind of scary
to me you know if it actually did retain the scene of some poor other nameless maiden being

(47:25):
chopped up to pieces it probably would have just been that much more frightening but yeah
I always had fun memories of that one I guess just because it was also so unique compared
to the other stories like there's that whole plot point of the parrot that's hanging around
and you know like I don't even remember it's like you know talking in annoying rhymes and

(47:52):
the old woman herself she you know is a previous victim basically of the robber bridegroom
who blinded her and has since kept her as his housekeeper so yeah that detail was also
very scary to me in of itself I didn't need you know any gory details it's like god that
sounds freaking horrifying just the idea of like these apparently unstoppable killers who

(48:21):
you know would think nothing of blinding somebody or you know yeah abducting countless others
and all this other stuff so it is funny that you were like eh wet fart it cheated yeah
well do you want me to calm you down Jose with a hilarious parrot related joke oh sure

(48:45):
please do so there's an old lady and she buys a parrot and I think there's I'm just like
how I can't recap these stories very well I'm also very bad at telling jokes because
I don't remember the details oh perfect I think the pet shop owner says you know something
along the lines like this parrot has an attitude I don't know if you want him and she's like

(49:07):
don't worry I can handle it and so she keeps like talking to the parrot and every time
she talks to the parrot the parrot's like fuck you and she's like hey don't talk to
me that way and he's like fuck you and she's like if you keep talking to that way I'm gonna
put you in the freezer and he goes fuck you so she puts him in the freezer and she waits

(49:28):
for five minutes and then she opens up the freezer and she says have you learned your
lesson and the parrot says what did the chicken do that's good so I'm looking at the table
of contents clean tidy ending there might be now that you shared that you got you got

(49:50):
my mind whirring in a whole nother direction now okay now I have to ask the question were
you at all familiar and I believe I still have the URL right were you at all familiar
with humor org was that something that that I recall that you ever trawled around now

(50:11):
I remember looking through that in like sixth grade and it had like a collection of jokes
like that that I thought were just really charming I love I love story jokes like that
but it also had like really random stuff like 15 funny things to do at the supermarket and

(50:34):
or you know at like Walmart and I remember one of them it was just you know it's stuff
like you see so commonly now but back then it was like wow there's a site that specializes
in this kind of stupid stuff but one of them was oh hide in one of the clothing racks and
as somebody passes by start shouting pick me pick me yeah I don't remember that site

(50:57):
but I remember when I was in junior high there was like an email list that I was a part of
that would send me basically that type of content like you know probably once a week
or whatever yeah there was one and then I my way of making friends freshman year was
to like collect all these into a word document and then print it out and then I just brought

(51:20):
it to school and we shared it at the lunch table nice that's exactly the kind of thing
that I would have done yeah and then the next year that friend group had completely splintered
apart in horrible acrimonious agony but you know we'll always have joke chain letter time

(51:43):
yeah they can't take that away from us wow well thanks for that that diverting path just
like perhaps one of the ones that are made and might have taken in the Robert Bridegroom
so I guess you could count that as me talking about one story specifically and we don't

(52:05):
necessarily have to go in order but what's what's one that kind of caught your attention
well speaking of ones that I was familiar with at least the shape of I'm going through
the table of contents and a lot of them like just from the title I'm like I don't even
remember which one that was possibly because most of this book I read earlier this morning

(52:27):
and I was just trying to get through the last like hundred pages just to say I read it but
there's for all the good that that did yeah well what nobody listens to this anyway so
it's okay yeah who cares I don't know we got like 50 followers on Instagram which is nice
but whatever yeah I assume that's all you're doing because I have no idea how you get a

(52:52):
following on Instagram I am just following people whose pages look cool and somehow that
like yeah I was surprised by this is turning into another mid episode self-promotion inadvertently
I swear but yeah I was like surprised how the fry time post got like 16 likes it's like

(53:12):
wow and that's like super small potatoes compared to some of these other pages that we're following
but you know we're a new kid on the block so that's a really nice thing to see and especially
know that other people remember this stuff and appreciate it but yeah some of the people
who are following us it's like I don't recall bumping into you at all so I'm gonna take

(53:34):
that as like just organic growth and that's really cool thanks for being here so anyway
here's how you tell the difference between me and Jose on Instagram writing under the
black magic tree house account if it's a really funny comment it's me oh thank you thank you
for in much the same way that the fairy tales leave out the details and let the reader do

(53:57):
the thinking for themselves you just did the same for our listeners really appreciate that
I think my comments are funny I actually don't see what comments you leave until I get a
notification that somebody liked or responded to it so you could be leaving a trail of hilarity
in your wake like breadcrumbs that I'm just not privy to breadcrumbs bringing it back

(54:21):
the witch cat is one that I enjoyed but like I said that was one that I was already kind
of familiar with because this one's from Virginia and it feels like kind of a variant on the
story that is his name W Earl Brown the guy who created the Waltons and started out on
the Twilight Zone doing Earl Hamner jr. oh that's right who's W Earl Brown good question

(54:49):
pause while I google it the Walton's oh that's the actor who plays um Kenney in scream kind
of a similar type I guess yes Earl Hamner jr. who wrote a lot of very bad episodes of
the Twilight Zone I think sci-fi was just oh I'm so glad I'm but yeah so glad I'm not

(55:12):
the only one who thinks sorry but yeah did he did he write the bewitching pool the last
episode oh my god my sis my sister liked that episode and I'm like what is the matter with
that one of the worst it was a bad I don't think it's as bad as the it's called like

(55:36):
black leather jackets or whatever which is about a gang of Fonzies who are actually like
aliens who want to take over the world or something but it is a bad I don't think I
actually watch that one yeah I don't think I ever actually watch that one because I'm
like I can't bring myself I know what I'm getting into yeah it's pretty terrible but
anyway he did write maybe one of two like good hour long episodes is he wrote a one

(56:03):
called I don't remember if it's called just like just spell or like the tale of just spell
or whatever but that's where I'm just about what's her name from Forbidden Planet is like
a southern bell who wants to put a love spell on somebody or something anyway it's this
the same kind of tale Francis stars in and Francis planet what oh thank you Rocky Horror

(56:30):
Rocky Horror Picture Show all right anyway that's that coming to my aid it's not exactly
that story but it's you know similar it's about a witch lady and then she's seducing
some guy and then also simultaneous to that Alma Alma chickens are getting eaten oh no
that's how they sound in Virginia I wonder if these two things are related and then chops

(56:54):
off the attacking hides out in the barn chops off the cat's paw and then finds the witch
lady you know dead with her hand cut off next door or whatever so I always enjoy that kind
of thing like I know that's the most cliched thing in horror is like chopping off a hand
and then like who's missing a hand now and it's always a lady but I enjoy that that trope

(57:19):
I think it's a lot of fun yeah I think I remember a different story from folklore I mean a different
folkloric story recounted in a different volume that I have fond memories of reading in elementary

(57:40):
school called ask the bones are you familiar with that one nope that's a really good one
I feel like it's you know well possible source material for a future episode but just to
put a pin in it here I think that one is a good marriage a good middle ground between
what sans Susie's doing here and you know like the Schwartz approach where it it's literary

(58:06):
but it I feel like some of the stories I reread in short and shivery in spite of the title
of the volume they sometimes feel a little over long it's like mmm I feel like you know
we could have trimmed this down a bit the ones in acts the bone acts the bones feel

(58:32):
just right like they got that Goldilocks amount of detail but not at the not at the risk of
dampening the story at all and and those stories don't feel like they're playing it safe but
don't want to spoil a totally different book way ahead of the game crap what were we talking

(58:56):
about werewolves are where creatures get their hands paws cut off yeah there was this there
was a story in there that I want that I say what one Jesus that I want to say came from
the Middle East that I remember having a similar ending where it's like an old woman like by
the fireplace and she's just gone like her you know her hand chopped off and she's like

(59:21):
hissing like how dare you find out that it was me yeah and it's it is fun you know for
as a hack need as it is it's it's a good time it's it still delivers on on the visceral
punch yeah but yeah the witch cat so yeah that's one that's familiar that may be familiar

(59:48):
to you if you've read volumes of this kind of lore before they're scared to death which
is the girl who stood on the grave there's the midnight mass of the dead which was also
covered in a volume of scary stories to tell in the dark I didn't reread that one in short

(01:00:09):
and chivalry but I do appreciate that story where it kind of has that dawning sense of
horror that it's not just oh I'm going to the spooky graveyard at night and I bump into
a ghost the cool thing about that one is you know the woman in the story believes you know
she's just oh this is just my usual morning routine of going to mass but now I'm going

(01:00:33):
to the one on midnight on this particular day you know I want to say it takes place
around Christmas time but then she has that dawning sense of horror where she realizes
some of these people I'm seeing I haven't seen in quite a long time some of these because
they're dead yep who are these people who are these people and they try to it's my

(01:01:00):
Seinfeld impersonation yeah the death waltz I think is a oh your one yeah I wanted to
talk about that one because yeah that one was very familiar to me but I remember because
I didn't read these books but I remember one when I was a kid that I'm pretty sure was

(01:01:21):
not like a western one because this one takes place in Fort Union was it New Mexico yeah
yeah but I remember yeah that's one where a guy is really in love with a lady she seems
kind of indifferent to him but for some reason it was very strange the way it played out

(01:01:41):
because he was like professing her love to her and she was like ho hum I don't care about
you basically but then he was like I'm gonna go into battle what if I die and she's like
oh don't worry I swear I won't marry anybody else and he's like okay great now I can go
war in in a peaceful mindset and then you know he does get killed or at least goes missing

(01:02:04):
she does get remarried a very you know inappropriately short amount of time later she marries some
other guy corpse of Frank what's his name like Frank center or something corpse person
with an axe gashed to the forehead and then the band like or orchestra or whatever like
seemingly possessed and unaware of what they're doing starts playing like a slow dirge that

(01:02:29):
he waltzes you know she feels compelled to waltz with his corpse and then by the end
of the waltz she's dead in his arms and he lays her down and he goes and they find his
corpse later you know single axe gashed in his head murdered by Apaches and so I guess
when I say war what I mean is I have to go participate in the genocide now goodbye be

(01:02:54):
back soon BRB but anyway yes I remember reading a story that was very similar that that stuck
in my head for decades I have no idea what it was from and I don't think it was like
a Cowboys and Indians type story like that I feel like it was like older because I feel
like what happened to the guy in that story was that he got like his carriage went over

(01:03:18):
a cliff or something but the scene that I remember really vividly is like yeah okay
do you know what I'm talking about so I guess I could have just asked you I don't know this
was yeah geez get with the program when you said that I realized yes I don't know I imagined

(01:03:40):
that the folklore variant preceded the story because the story that I recall is by E. Nesbitt
and it's called John Charrington's wedding and it's in the dark descent anthology is
where I encountered it and when I read it I'm like oh this is like that one story from
folklore where he promises to come back and then he does as a corpse and it's a whole

(01:04:05):
big thing so yeah I don't know if E. Nesbitt that was their refashioning of the you know
the folkloric story or you know chicken or the egg I imagine that's how it went but and
maybe that's probably not even the one you're talking about but when you said story I'm
like wait there is a story like a you know a short story proper that an author wrote

(01:04:28):
that's very much like this and that's the one that comes to my mind I wonder yeah because
the only other detail that I remember is yeah I remember the doors bursting open in the
banquet hall when she gets remarried but what I remember is like a pool of blood like spreads
on the front of her wedding dress and then she like falls over dead is the image that

(01:04:50):
I remember so clearly it is just a variation on this that somebody else retold in some
other collection but I have no idea what collection that was in yeah that's the thing with these
things in both horror and melodrama I love horrible deaths at a wedding especially if
it's the bride needless to say well there we go again female getting punished as always

(01:05:18):
yeah just looking through to see if there was anything familiar um lavender one of
the last few stories in the book yes is pretty much with just extra details I'm trying to
think of what the heck it's called and scary stories of tell in the dark but it's the vanishing

(01:05:41):
hitchhiker folks you know you see it countless times and all kinds of books like this so
lavender is the vanishing hitchhiker we all know that one yeah yeah that one is that's
the one I was referencing that I said I came across in the screaming ghost in other stories

(01:06:02):
and and also I remember being told on do you remember that show haunted history kind of
I don't think I ever really watched it myself but I'm aware of it yeah I watched that one
every so often that was a show that was like probably late 90s or early 2000s on the history
channel was just like telling different ghost stories from you know every episode would

(01:06:24):
be about a different city or whatever and that one was I think that was haunted New
York maybe but yeah they had a folklorist guy on I don't think it was this mr. Sansusie
but they had a guy on to tell that specific variant it could have been hey who knows and
yeah so he told that story and that was one of my like you know before ASMR was a thing

(01:06:48):
I had that clip from YouTube that I would play over and over again because it was like
a nice relaxing ghost story about two boys picking up a hitchhiking girl she's wearing
a lavender dress so she says just call me lavender and then yeah they show up at her
house the next day because one of them gives her his jacket because she's cold and then

(01:07:09):
the lady's like that's my daughter she's dead and then they go out to the graveyard and
they see in this version the jacket was like neatly folded on top of her grave but I remember
the jacket being you know placed on the gravestone like across the shoulders if you will of the
headstone headstone anyway you can move on oh no no worries I can understand why that

(01:07:37):
story in particular would kind of feel calming because it's not overly horrifying it's it
is kind of calming in a way it's like well we've had this eerie encounter but it's almost
like a good samaritan story you know yep feel like there was something else I was gonna
say oh no I was just gonna comment you know on how you said oh yeah haunted history was

(01:08:01):
your jam back in the day back in my day I was more of a scariest places on earth kid
was that the one on fox family yep sitting on the couch in the middle of a sunny afternoon
just being terrified by Zelda Rubenstein's voice yes I remember that too oh good good

(01:08:22):
times 13 nights of Halloween that that was our thing so interestingly there are two entries
in the first short and chivalry that are actually adaptations of literature in the same way as the
great illustrated classics whose name I kept forgetting and changing in the Freitime episode

(01:08:46):
I know we have the adventure of the Germans yeah thanks the adventure of the German students
which is from a tale by Washington Irving a very unnerving story if you read the original I can
attest to this adaptation as far as what mr. Sansousi left out what a very unnerving unnerving

(01:09:15):
your choice of words not mine Wow that's Wow that's pretty that's a deep cut right there
nice job nice job and then the other one is whoo a story from Nathaniel Hawthorne his most
terrifying Lady Eleanor's mantle of course I say that very facetiously I do remember that being

(01:09:42):
like in my original reading in fifth grade of these stories I got to the end of that one I'm
like that was dumb it's like oh she's old now who cares yeah I know I just read this book but can
you refresh my memory which story that is it's the one where and kind of the same sense of the

(01:10:06):
character from scare to death very haughty you know young thing lady Eleanor is of a similar
disposition and position in life she's like this rich lady very beautiful very narcissistic
and I think it's a suitor that she's turned down time and again who basically ends up cursing her

(01:10:33):
he's like you know what you may have all the beauty in the world but inside you're nothing
nothing and if it wasn't yeah if it wasn't for this mantle that you wear or you know I don't know
he says something about the mantle and basically she you know it's like a Dorian Gray kind of a
thing where by the end of it she's like poor and penniless and like I'm trying to remember like

(01:11:00):
what the supernatural element is because it basically sounds like time has just passed but
I think it must it must it must happen in a sped up way because at the story's end where like the
suitor is claiming his victory like I guess he's the same age so yeah I don't really remember what
happens but it's like yep that's the big finish like oh she's old and decrepit now ha shows her

(01:11:24):
and I was just you know at my desk in fifth grade like boo who cares I do remember that lady
Eleanor's mantle and then the one directly after that so is maybe my favorite story of the collection
the soldier and the vampire a Russian folktale oh yeah I that was the first one I reread that

(01:11:51):
probably is my favorite in this collection that's the one I like go to every time I pick up this
book it's a great one I'll let you I'll let you run us through it yeah I think I've said before
on this podcast I'm really charmed by like pre I don't know where the cutoff would be maybe like

(01:12:12):
pre and rice vampire mythology maybe even earlier than that but I love stories from back before it
was a thing that like vampires would get burned up by sunlight like pre film pre kind of modern
novel vampire mythology is really interesting to me and I can't explain exactly why but this one

(01:12:35):
is about god I'm having trouble remembering any details again we're in Russia it's a guy is a
soldier he's going home from war he stops at like an inn or a tavern or something and the guy who
owns it is he's like I gotta get home to the place where I live and the guy's like no don't

(01:12:56):
walk through this land at night you'll run into trouble there's a vampire around these parts but
he's a wizard he was an evil wizard in life and then he died and he comes back to life or back
to undeath as a vampire do loo-doo-doo I've seen enough in war said the soldier I've seen evil

(01:13:18):
enough in war meeting a monster won't be so bad bleepity-blopity and he goes home and doesn't see
the vampire at all he's like I guess I'm home free but then his sister is dying she got visited by
the wizard she sleeps the sleep that will end in death tomorrow night when the creature uses her
life to escape his grave once more he's like why didn't you destroy it they're like yeah we don't

(01:13:43):
know where he is so then the soldier is like walking around by the graveyard just hoping he'll
meet this vampire he meets a shadowy figure on the road he pretends to be a wizard himself so that
this guy will think of him as a compatriot and not a victim and he asked like how do you do this

(01:14:05):
whole blood thing wizard guy and the guys like I'll show you doopie-doo-boo-boo they go into a
clearing back to his grave I don't know why they take him back to the grave I don't think it has
anything to do with because the wizard just says well what I do is I drink from this flask this is

(01:14:25):
the girl's blood he takes out a small flask of blood and he's like this is her life and if I
drink it tomorrow at dawn then she'll die and I'll get her life and I'll keep living on boopity-boppity
yeah and then he's like I know you're not a vampire like me cuz you're asking too many questions and
then they fight the soldier is swinging his blade around cuz it says something about like you know

(01:14:49):
the only thing that can keep a monster at bay is cold steel they fight until the dawn comes up
light of dawn touches the tips of the tallest trees vampire falls lifeless to the ground
soldier grabs the flask of blood builds a pyre and then all these little insects and snakes and

(01:15:13):
lizards and toads and such start crawling away and soldier remembers I have to kill every single
one of these or else the vampire can escape if even one of these things gets away so he burns
all the things and then he takes the blood back brings his sister back to life and the village
was never troubled by the vampire again and with wedding bells of her and her fiance not her and

(01:15:35):
her brother yeah to clarify finally yeah thank you yeah wedding bells just like the end of
Dracula 1931 version yeah I think to maybe answer part of your question at least with my own

(01:15:56):
reasonings I also think vampire lore of a particular vintage is really charming what I like about it is
that it's such a smorgasbord you know like vampires can do anything they can be anything they are
repelled by just about everything it's very specific how you have to dispatch them you know

(01:16:23):
has to be a steak made from poplar or ash or you know whatever and then you have to chop their
head off and then you have to burn them and make sure like the story says make sure you get all the
different parts and throw them into the fire and scattered their ashes to the four winds it's also
like very detailed and yeah it's just like there's so many things going on here like yeah you know

(01:16:49):
the vampires can transform themselves into anything this story puts me in mind of another
bit of folklore that I read right around the same time actually I think I had a book of ghost
stories that was just called ghosts that was edited by Marvin Kay and one of the entries was I believe

(01:17:15):
it was called a court treat or excuse me a quartet of strange things by Bernhardt J.
Hurwood who was basically a precursor to Alvin Schwartz and Robert D. Sansusie because he
published a number of books of creepy scary folklore that from what I've heard and seen were

(01:17:41):
ostensibly for kids you know in that 1970s 1960s 1970s way it's it's hard it's hard to you know see
now in hindsight it's like were these supposed to be for kids because they look like they could have
just as easily been for adults like the delineation was not as clear back then for for certain works

(01:18:03):
as it is now but I guess this was like a sampler from maybe one of his books that was reprinted
and in this ghost anthology and one of the entries from the court quartet of strange things it's
funny I think Robert D. Sansusie actually retold two of the four in later volumes and it's kind

(01:18:32):
of funny because I'm saying oh this one reminds me of one of them because it's also a vampire
story it's are you familiar with the name the Croglin Grange vampire? Nope. No? Okay yep the
Croglin Grange vampire it's kind of a similar story where it's like yeah this wizened you know

(01:18:56):
desiccated corpse of a vampire that is plaguing this one family he's like creeping in through the
window at night stealing the lifeblood of the youngest sister adult sister of the family and
it's her two brothers who are desperately trying to vanquish this undead foe but just like yeah

(01:19:18):
the general grottiness of the vampire is is a quality from both stories that that I always
liked because yeah he's completely unromantic he's like smells of damp earth and mold and he's
streaked with dirt and you know he's got like scraggly nails and teeth he's just the complete

(01:19:42):
antithesis of you know your byronic romantic vampire yeah and you know refreshing in light
of that oh man we totally forgot to mention tailipo that's another super familiar one I don't know
if I forgot so much as I just didn't care much about it didn't care that's a great story I like

(01:20:09):
the form better when it's the guy where's who's got my bloody toe or whatever well I mean yeah
that's the golden arm but yeah tailipo is so I mean it's so strange at least for the fact that
like the supernatural perpetrator is completely whacked out it's like an escapee from dr. morose

(01:20:35):
house of pain you know it's got like a fox face but a monkey body and it kills all the old man's
hunting dogs and then it creeps into his room and jumps on his chest and basically tears its tail
out of his stomach I mean it's well to be fair like that did happen in other golden arm variants

(01:20:58):
sure and people ate the thing that the the monster was coming back for so I guess it's not super
unique but I always thought it was fairly chilling but yeah you go you go ahead with your thing well
real quick I just wanted to talk about the green mist which is interesting because it's not even

(01:21:22):
really scary it's about yeah it's I'm not gonna do as long a recap as I did for the vampire one
but basically just about a girl who is really sick and her mom's worried that she's dying
and then it's like winter and her mom's like wait for the green mist and from the title I thought

(01:21:42):
green mist was going to be like it's got all kinds of horrible spirits in or something but green mist
is basically just like it turns the land from winter to spring you know so then the green mist
and then the girl says something along the lines of like if I could be uh shoot let me look it up
because I forget what she exactly wants to live as long as see if I can help you out okay oh if I

(01:22:09):
could only live as long as one of the cowslips or cowslips right that grow by the door each spring
I swear I'd be content hush now child hush her mother cautioned you don't know whom I'd hear you
say such a thing because the old woman knew that there were always bogeys around wicked goblins

(01:22:30):
who made mischief and grief for their human neighbors it's funny and thinking back on the
story I always thought it was fairies I thought it was the we folk who made her wish come true
but I guess it's bogeys excuse me yeah I mean it's not something that the fairies wouldn't do but
exactly yeah she seems to get better with the advent of spring but she has this what seems like

(01:22:56):
perhaps a superstitious idea that like if anybody does anything to those cowslips now I'll die too
like my life is tied to those so her mom's all like okay I won't touch them and cowslips apparently
are fragrant yellow blossoms for anybody who's just picturing like cowslips blooming out of a

(01:23:17):
stem of or something but yeah that one ends with a guy who means well a guy who wants to make her
a crown of flowers but of course he picks the cowslips and so he brings them to the girl and
she's like you've killed me and she falls over dead so that one's a melancholy one more than a
scary one but uh maybe just because it was kind of a change of pace that one stood out to me

(01:23:44):
now you talk about whatever you want to talk about oh cool that's how this works that's how a
conversation works thank you um that is admittedly another one that you know as a dumb fifth grade
boy I was like boo bogeys and flowers this story sucks yeah I probably would have been the same way

(01:24:09):
if I read this as a younger as a in a younger man's clothes but I didn't so that's my opinion
yeah well and I guess you know it has shaded my uh my opinion of it because I never really have
gone back to reread that one just like I didn't go back to reread it for this episode um but just

(01:24:31):
a few others to close this out uh I really appreciate the inclusion of some of these um
because even though Eric mentioned how there's a lot of carryover um a lot of tropes
tropes that show up in one variation or another throughout these stories especially when it's like

(01:24:55):
a story that's predicated on the writing of a wrong um you know those kind of all have the
same tenor to them the same kind of arc um but some of these are pretty interesting um I really
liked Billy Mosby's night ride uh just because I always appreciate some New England witchcraft

(01:25:18):
yeah that one was a good one although I was picturing
it's definitely picturing Bill Cosby the whole time instead of Bill Mosby
which did not enhance the story really
oh my god yeah Billy Mosby in the story is a young lad

(01:25:41):
who gets uh um it who gets voluntold to uh basically well it's funny it's the uh the
warlock at the center of the story Francis Wolcott who has an amazing name and I love how Robert D.
Sansousi refers to him by his full name like every time we see him it's like said Francis Wolcott

(01:26:07):
it's like we know you've already told us who he was and then what and then do you know what Francis
Wolcott did well he picked up Bill Mosby Bill Cosby by his suspenders and threw him on the back
of that horse um but yeah I love New England witchcraft um and you know even though this

(01:26:30):
this isn't um the story of Washington Irving's that Robert D. Sansousi adapted it feels very
much like a Washington Irving story and the devil in Tom Walker mold which is you know also um a bit
of a an illusion because hey guess what folks in a in another volume of Short and Shivery

(01:26:54):
Robert D. Sansousi adapted the devil in Tom Walker um but yeah I love um I love stories of New England
witchcraft that to me they have this rambunctious quality to them um I know this has been like
brought up in essays before about how like horror slash ghost stories slash supernaturalism

(01:27:19):
in like Britain you know the UK versus America um the I feel like you know maybe the introduction
to the dark descent brought this up or maybe it was American supernatural tales it was one of those
damn things but talking about the relative youth of America as a country compared to you know the

(01:27:42):
British Isles uh and how they have a lot more antiquity uh it's always like these spirits
rattling around in chains um you know things like that runes you know going into the more folk horror
vibe uh whereas in America it's like well we kind of had to build our own there wasn't much here

(01:28:04):
already you know we were too busy committing our own uh you know historical horrors at the time
for us to rely on to rely on them for the sources of our fictional hauntings um so I I always
appreciate stories that have that kind of rough-and-tumble early America quality to them and here

(01:28:28):
yeah Bill Billy Mosby is a young boy he goes on a night ride um this is just totally charming
Francis Wolcott the warlock conjures 13 night riders from hell from basically these little bales
of hay or oat straw I think it's called um and yeah Billy Mosby gets thrown on a horse and the

(01:28:52):
night rider the creepy detail too um when the night rider's horse gallops across the countryside
it's completely silent I thought that was kind of an eerie touch it's like oh that's that's weird too
picture sure I thought so I didn't care about this story until the end which I thought was nice and

(01:29:14):
creepy uh well I mean yeah it is nice and creepy but I think what precedes it is pretty interesting
um well whatever okay folks you know I like you want to ride this horse how about I super glue
you to this horse there what a warlock oh my god magical powers he's he's
he's he's hellishly magnetized to the horse you know I mean that's like something out of a nightmare

(01:29:41):
I guess some of us are just immune to those kinds of scares but uh yeah no I thought that was super
charming and then yeah basically a night rider slash satan himself comes to claim Francis Wolcott
the warlock at the end of the story and Billy sees his face in a flash of lightning and

(01:30:05):
you know his face is the color of raw meat and he has two eyes like burning coals and there's a great
stench of sulfur so you know all of that good stuff in that their story um two stories I'll kind
of encapsulate I'll lump them together um is knuckle of e and boneless I thought those were

(01:30:28):
really interesting it insofar as they're very different monsters than what you see
in your typical book of scary folklore for kids uh knuckle of e speaking of horses apparently looks
like a rider upon a horse like when you see its shadow or its silhouette but then you come to

(01:30:50):
find out that it's like this big stinking gob of a aquatic mammal of some kind and it's got like
two different you know the the rider part and the the horse looking part or like it almost sounds
like they're two uh parts of the monster's body that act independently of each other and it's got

(01:31:11):
like yellow skin and black blood that courses through its throbbing veins um yeah yeah it's
really disgusting um I think it also said that the human head is like three times bigger than
a normal human head or something like that yeah like I could not get a handle on the proportions

(01:31:32):
or just what this thing looked like it's just a mess um and it is kind of funny for all of like
those gross horrifying descriptions the you know the way the monster actually acts in the story is
kind of like very non-threatening uh to a degree because you know somebody comes across it on a

(01:31:54):
road and it's just kind of like flippering behind him you know kind of like a leopard seal on land
like oh like I don't think Robert Deese and Susie actually says anything like that but for some
reason that's the image I had stuck in my head that this guy's trying to like ignore this
abomination behind them and Knuckleavie's just behind him like oh oh oh I'm gonna get you

(01:32:24):
and the guy's like no I'm not gonna look at you I'm gonna jump into this lake over here and
Knuckleavie's just trying to get him with its weird gross bulbous flipper like no
oh get get home back here get on back here now so it's like equal parts um hilarious and horrifying
uh and the monster in boneless is more or less the same thing it's basically a big old blob

(01:32:52):
that uh nobody no two people can agree on what it looks like and I thought that was kind of an
eerie touch because there's one moment where a farmer thinks he's killed the thing or it
hit by throwing an axe at it and uh like him and three two or three buddies are in the process of
burying it and even as like they're all standing around you know the the ditch the pit together

(01:33:15):
burying this thing none of them can agree what they see I thought that was almost kind of like
a bit of a cosmic horror vibe popping up in you know uh antiquated folklore was which was kind
of unexpected totally yeah and uh like some people see it as like a human with white flesh

(01:33:37):
some people just see it as a blob um and yeah I think both of them like they they get all uppity
once you start praying or using the name of the lord they're like don't do that it hurts my non
ears you know whatever um I wrote yeah so anyway boneless and knuckle of e really weird and then um

(01:34:02):
slightly more traditional it's not the last story but the second to last story I thought
was a lot of fun you know we've mentioned I've mentioned before that every now and then um
I guess it just depends on my disposition or the type of the type of story being told but I like
usually when uh you add a little a little adventure to the horror stew so the second to last story is

(01:34:29):
the goblin spider um which I guess you could say is reminiscent to me of like you know the the ancient
myths or epics of uh Greek mythology like Jason and the Argonauts where it's basically a hero
traveling to a desolate location and they have to do battle with a giant horrendous beast in this

(01:34:55):
case it's a goblin spider that's like all white and gross and it bleeds white blood um but I thought
it was cool because immediately preceding like the final confrontation with the goblin spider
with the goblin spider like a whole host of crazy ass Japanese demons come out and uh it's like a

(01:35:18):
celebrity death match between uh the samurai and his his assistant yeah and all these crazy uh
demons that warrant nothing more than like a quick description is this the one where there's like a
woman and then her like like a beautiful woman but then like her neck gets really yeah this one very
much reminded me of like various uh Chinese and Japanese horror movies that I've seen over the

(01:35:44):
years like um I can't remember what it was called but there was one that I watched a while ago it
was this is a Japanese story but it was a Chinese but it had all that like you know necks elongating
and stuff like that it very it very much feels like yeah that like um kind of like uh mixing like

(01:36:05):
kung fu cinematography and energy where everything's like really whipping by and happening really
quickly with like really weird gore horror effects for these folklore creatures um yeah so this story
is like I see where and again not to say that Chinese and Japanese are like the same but like

(01:36:27):
you can kind of see the roots of like where that filmmaking style might have come from with the
with the energy with which a folklore like this would have been told I think yeah that's a great
point um I don't know if I'm pronouncing this right because I don't speak Mandarin I don't even
know what language this was in um but it's Mo, M-O, aka the Boxers Omen so check that one out if you

(01:36:54):
haven't seen that yet it's really crazy I feel like I've heard of that one um speaking of uh Steven
Gamble as you did earlier what did you think of the illustrations from this volume which are from
Catherine Coville and Jacqueline Rogers I'm familiar with Catherine Coville as a function of

(01:37:15):
she illustrated a lot of Bruce Coville's books I remember she had a very distinctive style I
remember always fixating on the noses in Bruce Coville's books the illustrations like there's
just something weirdly kind of like gnomish almost about the noses that she draws they're like very
or Santa Clausy they're like very like W.C. Fields kind of noses like very ruddy and round

(01:37:41):
uh but I'm not familiar with Jacqueline Rogers I have to look back at some of these now
so I don't know if these were done in collaboration or if it was like a switch
off like one illustrator did this one and then another illustrator did that one
oh see I'm looking at um where do you see Jacqueline Rogers name listed because the
title page just says illustrated by Catherine Coville oh okay I am read maybe maybe Jacqueline

(01:38:06):
Rogers did the second volume because I am looking at one that is a combination of the first two
short and shivery books so maybe all the ones in the first volume are Catherine Coville
and all the ones in the second volume are uh Jacqueline Rogers yeah I think that's right um
I I like Catherine Coville's style um this is the thing that frustrates me about um art is that I

(01:38:33):
wish I was more well versed in it to speak at least halfway not even eloquently but just
like knowledgeable about it you know outside of just I like the way she draws the pictures
um that's yeah that's about the best I can do yeah there are some cool illustrations I would say

(01:38:54):
again I guess if I'm being mean to Sanssouci I can maybe be a little mean to Catherine Coville um
I don't know that I find her style that sure particularly well suited to horror specifically
yeah it feels like the kind of illustrations you would get when they you know want to redo

(01:39:14):
illustrations in a book because they thought the originals were too scary or something
which again I feel like that's a mean thing to say what did come across my mind actually was um
as I looked through some of these I'm like these don't feel entirely dissimilar to what you might
actually see in a great illustrated classic like kind of like what you're saying you know a bit

(01:39:37):
on the sanitized side yeah um you know like this fearsome werewolf that just looks like a big old
good boy lolling its tongue on the sled like yeah yeah that one almost made me laugh out loud
when I was picturing this awful terrible slavering demon wolf chasing after this guy in his sled and

(01:39:59):
then yeah you turn the page and it's like oh who's a good boy who's a good boy oh I am oh the good
boy me and knuckle of e yeah oh man if I think it's maybe a good thing that she didn't illustrate
knuckle of e or boneless what we would have gotten yeah one can only imagine again you know no no no

(01:40:23):
offense Catherine um I think her style fits kind of the the stately feel of Robert D.
Sansouci's retellings of some of these like you know it's a good fit for some of them but yeah
some of the more maybe rambunctious stories you know needed a little needed a little something

(01:40:48):
to zhuzh them up um yeah but yeah it's not a knock against her as an artist in general because she
is obviously quite accomplished yeah I'm not trying to say she's untalented I think her best
illustrations right in this book for me are the ones that are for the more kind of melancholy
stories they work a little bit better for that uh for those like um and I'll put a couple of

(01:41:10):
these up on our Instagram for people who want to check that out and see what her style was
the one for uh the adventure of the German student which is like kind of a love story with the ghost
has like a the woman in black you know hugging herself in the rain at the bottom of the
I guess it's not gallows if there's a guillotine instead of a hangman's noose but you know the

(01:41:34):
executioner platform or whatever and then I would still call them gallows yeah she has a good
haunted look about her it's just not like a creepy style really yep that's the one right right yeah
yeah not garish at all just um manicured like uh yeah and like when you look at um the German
student and that illustration and even um the uh you know the woman just from the perspective

(01:42:00):
that it's uh the distance in the in the illustration you know they almost kind of look
like cute little doll people yeah um and it's so it's so funny looking at the um oh gosh whatever
they're called you know the socks that he's wearing you know with his buckled shoes for

(01:42:23):
some reason you know what this made me think of I went through a president phase as a kid
like in third grade where I just became really interested in the lives of the presidents and you
know to a certain degree other historical figures um I loved as a kid the uh books by David Adler

(01:42:46):
a picture book of George Washington a picture book of Thomas Jefferson do you do you recall any of
those by the name not by name let me look it up that's what this makes me think of like kind of
very docile illustrations um you know especially yeah like the the pony you know the ponytail hair

(01:43:10):
and everything that's especially like what the illustration to the German student makes me think
of those books I read as a kid I came up with a book this has David Adler's name nowhere on it so
I'm not sure what the connection is here but it's the legend of Naranja and it's uh an orange with

(01:43:34):
leaves it's an orange in um an orange in running shoes that's jogging with leaves for hair
that I think is meant to evoke Donald Trump oh my god wow Brave Books has partnered with Andrew

(01:43:55):
Gamberski and Anna Paulina Luna to write the legend of Naranja a Christian children's book
that teaches kids about the importance of doing the right thing okay so it might be Donald Trump
yes definitely not the one I read as a kid I can tell you that for sure go one of the users reviews
is um I feel moved to say go orange man and thanks for giving us your all

(01:44:20):
I'm trying to see if this is canonically supposed to be is this textually meant to look like Donald
Trump or okay here's a one-star review political propaganda propaganda disguised as a children's
book a malicious attempt to get children whose minds are not mature enough to consider the bias
of the author to believe the 2020 election was stolen this kind of indoctrination takes place

(01:44:43):
in North Korea and China I am shocked to find it in the USA okay so yes this is
that's so funny I honestly thought this was going to be a book like the Stinky Cheese Man
or something like a satire making fun of Donald Trump through this like little tropicana guy with
this crazy hair but it's supposed to be venerating to Donald Trump but it's making him a literal orange

(01:45:13):
yeah wow this is like that that uh that bit you see in comedy sometimes where like I know they
did it in the producers where you see Nathan Lane turn to the the jury of all the old bitties at
one point he's like don't help me it's like that thing it's like Donald Trump he just turns to the

(01:45:34):
authors like don't help me please stop all right a picture book of George Washington the paths we
trod yeah sorry for that uh I have no idea why that came up when I looked up David Adler um but
I found a picture book of George Washington and no it still does not look familiar to me so
there you go okay yeah they were kind of ubiquitous in my media centers growing up

(01:46:01):
but anyway yeah just the kind of same feeling if not necessarily the same aesthetic or the same
stylistic choices I don't know I just get the same vibe of like docility if that's the right word I
might have just made it up anyway um yeah so uh you know this book was a pretty big part of my

(01:46:23):
upbringing um I remember re-reading it a lot and um you know I think it has its its good traits I
I do want to um oh gee I don't know if I can do it in any way that wouldn't lead to me just
repeating myself um I just appreciate it I appreciated what Robert D. D. San Sucey set

(01:46:47):
out to do and kind of building these like bits and scraps of folklore up into proper narratives
with you know for a short story like a three-act structure like I thought if that's what he set
out to do he achieved it well in this volume and whether you know each individual story is to your

(01:47:08):
liking that's just you know the gamble you you place with any anthology um but overall I'd say
this is a this is a worthy addition to the pantheon if we can even call it that of scary folklore
books for kids so thanks Mr. San Sucey rest in peace and I appreciate you yeah I guess I the most

(01:47:31):
valuable thing about it to me is the fact that it gathers all of these various tales from different
sources and puts them in one I could see myself getting this book out of the library when I was
a kid and then maybe like trying to trace some of the more interesting tales back to their source
and then like proceeding from there to learn more about you know like oh I'd like to read more

(01:47:52):
Russian folk tales or whatever maybe I would then go get a book about that um so you know in terms
of like as a content aggregator I'll give uh San Sucey a pass that I did not give you know the fat
Jew or whatever that what was that do you remember that account there was some kind of drama around

(01:48:13):
him anyway maybe I should cut this out because I'm fairly sure his name was like hold on I'm
gonna google it again to see if I'm remembering this incorrectly oh the fat Jewish I'm sorry
yeah there was some controversy with him he was like a content aggregator who maybe wasn't citing
his sources properly or something anyway it doesn't matter but he was a real guy I'm not just creating

(01:48:37):
a slur over here he called himself the fat Jew it wasn't we're so relieved to know that uh yeah so
anyway um hey do you want to yell at me our email address is blackmagictreehousepod at gmail.com
you can come find me on the Facebook uh group that we have black magic tree house

(01:49:02):
podcast probably I feel like it'll come up if you type in black magic tree house we have an
Instagram where I always post the covers of the books we talk about sometimes AI generated covers
for if we don't have a cover for a topic that we are talking about um I know somebody who follows

(01:49:23):
us I remember seeing a post was very against AI so sorry it's only because we don't get paid for
this podcast and we can't pay somebody to come up with artwork for us that I sometimes use AI just
to get the job done um I think that's all of our things right sorry I didn't have an original
drawing to go with evil mirror we had to do what we could yeah yeah I would I would say that does

(01:49:50):
it for short and shivery today and you know this episode is not very short maybe shivery I know
just at the two hour mark now oh goodness the paths we trod in these things sometimes my my word
but uh yes please do reach out to us we'd love to hear from you any uh books of folklore or

(01:50:15):
bits of folklore that you read remembered from your childhood that you'd like to share with us
um write to us in the email write to us on instagram I said all this already yeah you
did I was just you know I don't know well I don't know lasagna I don't know
um do you know what Dwight H Colby aka Whitey from the 1972 class of South Windsor Connecticut

(01:50:47):
high school's favorite saying was
it's advice that I think we can all was Dwight H Colby's favorite saying Stokitt

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