April 30, 2025 • 39 mins
This week, we’re revisiting one of our most powerful and thought-provoking yarns—with the legendary Uncle Bruce Pascoe. A proud Bunurong, Tasmanian, and Yuin man, Uncle Bruce is a celebrated author, historian, and farmer, best known for his groundbreaking book Dark Emu. In this episode, we dive deep into the truth-telling of our past, and the future we can create through Indigenous knowledge, self-determination, and sustainable land practices.
Uncle Bruce shares stories of resilience, the revival of traditional Aboriginal agriculture, and the importance of defining ourselves—on our own terms. From revitalising native grains on his farm to pushing back against systemic racism and the myth of the ‘hunter-gatherer’, this conversation is as inspiring as it is urgent.
Whether this is your first listen or a return to a favourite, this yarn reminds us why truth-telling and cultural knowledge must be at the heart of Australia’s journey forward.
Recommendations throughout this episode:
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Books by Bruce Pascoe:
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Dark Emu – Black Seeds: Agriculture or Accident?
https://www.magabala.com/products/dark-emu -
Young Dark Emu – A Truer History
https://www.magabala.com/products/young-dark-emu -
Loving Country: A Guide to Sacred Australia (co-authored with Vicky Shukuroglou)
https://www.hardiegrant.com/au/publishing/bookfinder/book/loving-country-by-bruce-pascoe/9781741176483
Agricultural & Cultural Projects:
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Black Duck Foods – Indigenous social enterprise reviving traditional food systems
https://blackduckfoods.com.au
Educational Resources:
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First Australians – SBS Documentary Series
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/first-australians -
Dark Emu Study Guide – Reading Australia
https://readingaustralia.com.au/books/dark-emu/ -
AIATSIS Map of Indigenous Australia
https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/map-indigenous-australia
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Website: www.blackmagicwoman.com.au
Follow us on Instagram - @blackmagicwomanpodcast
The Black Magic Woman Podcast is hosted by Mundanara Bayles and is an uplifting conversational style program featuring mainly Aboriginal guests and explores issues of importance to Aboriginal people and communities. Mundanara is guided
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Black Cast, Unite our voices. Black Magic Woman Podcast acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land we have recorded this
episode on. We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land
where you, the listener of viewer, are tuning in from.
We would like to pay our respects to our elders
past and present and acknowledge that this always was Aboriginal
(00:25):
land and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to the
Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bail. I'd like to
begin this podcast by acknowledging the traditional owners here on
the Sunshine Coast where I am today, the gubby gubby
(00:47):
and cubby cubby people here at beautiful cool and Beach,
a beautiful part of the world. I'd also like to
extend my acknowledgment to traditional owners right across this country
from wherever this podcast has been listened to. It's always
a pleasure to have your company. And the person that
I'm yearning to today, deadly fellow that I had the
(01:09):
pleasure of meeting actually last year, someone that I had
heard of and heard my dad speak to and also
heard my dad interview on the radio. And you know,
a person that I would consider an uncle to me
in terms of the respect and the relationship that my
dad had with you. So I just want to say
uncle Bruce Pasco, thank you so much for taking time
(01:33):
out of your busy life to be on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Oh well, it's a pleasure and an honor. Yes, a
good week to be talking on radio too, it sure is. Yeah.
I'm a you and Budlong Tasmonian man. I live on
you in the country, very southern end of you and country,
but I'm traveling up to Melbourne at the moment and
(01:56):
I've stopped on the side of the highway of the
western edge of gunn Ony Country and I'm very happy
who have been able to talk to community today various
parts of the country. And you know, it's pretty important
for us because my community is working on the farm.
(02:19):
I've got a little farm on the Wide Gras River
in Victoria and that's the part of our une lands
and we employee local you and people on the farm
to grow our traditional foods. And there's a huge movement
(02:40):
of young Australians, both non Aboriginal and Aboriginal who are
interested in this sustainable and regenerative agriculture. When Europeans ignored
our history, they also ignored our agriculture and our plants
and injured mather earth. You know, the injury to mather
(03:02):
earth is evident every time the fish die in the
Murray Darling basin, every time the coral bleaches and Queensland,
every time our soil blows away in the malley and
you know, near Birdsville and places like that. You know,
it's because of bad agricultural practice, prove failure to acknowledge
(03:27):
original people's methods, and so we're trying to do something
about up there. And I've been forming to people today
from various parts of the countries who are involved in
trying to reverse those bad practices, and they're all Aboriginal.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
How deadly is that?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
The thrilled for me that Aboriginal people are so involved
in this regenerative movement because we can restore our culture
this way and restore our pride, but also be a
practical assistance to the communities, because instead of being employed
(04:09):
by government to do nothing, will be involved in growing
out traditional foods. You know, it seems that government love
Aboriginal people being unemployed because they train the hell out
of us and give us no job.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
You know, I don't know how many blackfellows have got certificates,
every certificate.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You can think of, Uncle right, the biggest food driving steamrollers,
you know, and we haven't got a steam roller down here.
So the have unemployed people, but they've all got steam
rollers certificates. You know. It's ridiculous. And the government talks
about closing gaps and stuff like that, but really the
(04:50):
only way to do it is make sure that Aborginal
people are part of society, are not deliberately kept out.
We don't want to be trained for training sakes. We
want a job, and if we've been training for that job,
then give a choice. But also make sure that educational
opportunities are available to us when our kids are young.
(05:10):
Of course they wait until they're unemployed in thirty five.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Of course, I think when I go back to hearing
my dad on radio, it was always always talking about
self determination. We need to be self determined and self governed,
And now I can see what he was talking about.
You know, when our mob have employment and they could
put food on the table and they're looking after their family,
(05:36):
that changes the narrative in that family, in that community.
But they're part of something much bigger than just going
to work. When they're doing stuff that actually makes them
feel good that they're contributing to society, that they're reinvigorating
their culture, their connection to country, their health and well being. Like,
(05:57):
I'm just thinking of some of the foods that you
might harvest. I heard that you've got kangaroo grass, which
is like a nourishing super food, you know, an alternative
to wheat.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, there's a lot of those foods that were growing.
You know, we're grown four or five different grasses converting
them all into flour. They're all gluten free. During COVID,
my daughter and her family had to stay on the
farm and my daughter was breaking a loc of bread
every second day from our flour and pleading it too.
(06:35):
Were kids by grandkids, and you know, we felt really
good about it. Not only we were learning our culture,
but we were growing up our kids as well. And
it was very important for Australia to learn that these
old groins were chosen for a reason because they're so healthy,
(06:58):
and they weren't chosen by accident. They were deliberately chosen
by the old because of their health giving properties. And
they don't need any more water than the the sky delivers.
What Mother Earth receives from Father Sky, and our tubers
(07:19):
are the same. They're perennials. So you don't need to
plow the land, you don't need to add extra water,
you don't need to put on fertilizer, you don't need
to put on pesticide and herbicide. So if farmers start
growing these, and hopefully a proportion of those farmers will
be our people, then we will be repairing the earth.
(07:45):
What average of people don't often have is land, so
that was taken away from us. So don't talk about
close in the gap. Talk about give it a bit
of land back to blackfellows so we can become independent.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I think that sounds good.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yep, Yeah, Well that's what Tiger was all always on about,
you know, us being independed, and so you know, I
really always enjoyed talking to him because he was a
very positive man. He didn't want to bitch a moment.
He wanted to get on with life, and he wanted
(08:20):
us all to get on with our lives. And here
was an inspiration to us.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Sure I was.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And I always always go back to when I'm sitting
here in a studio with a microphone in front of me, thinking,
I never ever thought that this would be what I do.
Even though I don't do this for my full time,
you know, full time job. This is my passion. My
passion is about how do we get other abishntage on
(08:47):
to people's right, How do we give them a voice.
How do we kind of amplify their voices so that
people not only in this country, uncle, We've got a
global audience now with this podcast. How can we share
our culture, our history, our knowledge, our experience, our inventions,
(09:10):
you know, just share our deadliness with the rest.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Of the world.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And that's what I enjoy doing and speaking to people
like yourself to just understand, you know, despite being a
black fella and despite all of the odds that are
against us, how do we draw from our strength? And
that's what my dad really kind of pushed with us
young people. You know, eight daughters, you know them old
people went through the fights and went through those struggles
(09:35):
for us to have what we have today. So how
can we draw from our strengths and not from our weaknesses.
And in terms of closing gap, I love the fact
that you mentioned that because I work in an industry where,
you know, everyone's talking about closing the gap. I always
always say to people, and this comes directly from my
old people, any mayor in Anililla, we're not all victims,
(09:56):
you know, We're we're owners and runners of country. We
ran an entire country for tens of thousands of years
without any outside interference, without a need for armies, police
and prisons, and we never invaded our neighbors. Uncle, We
ran this country. We might not have always had peace,
(10:18):
but it's not about living in peace. It's about how
do you have a stable, efficient society, stability and efficiency
that's going to last you tens of thousands of years.
How do you live in harmony and balance with the land,
you know, And that's what we need to do. That's
what we need to go back to when you think
about the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, there, we we had good government. Our people were
wise governors, and I had worked out a really good law,
l Ori, of how people ought to behave in respect
to the earth, not about ourselves, not about the inter
relationships between people necessarily, but about how we related to
(11:02):
the earth. And you know, that's why I think that
none abridging society, this is out on. So if we
can bring back our own culture, respect, our own culture,
each that culture to our kids and support them in
their learning, keep them at school. Look, don't worry about
(11:22):
getting a wide education, because it's an education and we
could build on top of that education. Because you do
the wide education, then you do your law as well.
You're twice educated, end up with two degrees and they're complementary.
And we can change wide education anyway. You know, we
can make sure that our history is included in But
(11:45):
if we can do that, we're going to help the
rest of Australia as well stop being such a racist country.
You know, I really hate that about my country. Then
it's a racist country. But when Aubriagal people are killed
in jail and nobody gives them cares about it, then
that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Systemic, systemic racism.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
My uncle in New South Wales glad it's perergically and
wanted to change one word in the national anthem to
get rid of young. You know, we are young and free.
She wanted to get rid of young and make it
one we are one and free. You know, just that
timey little change and the National Party went ape. You know, oh,
(12:27):
you know that's disrespectful to our ancestors. Our disrespectful is
it to our ancestors? Of course we have to change
the minds of those people.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Of course, what about I saw yesterday there when you're
thinking about government or parliament, I saw a tweet there
I think might have been from Lydia Thorpe talking about
the Liberal Party and I think it was one nation.
Both voted for the Aberginal flag not to be raised
in Nadock week in parliament. They both agreed, like seriously,
(13:02):
But that's where we're right when you think about politics,
and that's that is.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Look, the rest of Australia is leaving them, mum behind
of course, you know I shouldn't obsess about pulling hands
and I can't remember this guy's name today, the new
South Wales plumimenteering. You know, we're leaving them behind. The dinosaurs,
you know, of course our great great grandkids will be
picking up their bones and wondering who they were. You know,
(13:27):
there's this old fossils because you know, the rest of Australia,
young Australia. I'm sure it will soon be a majority
voice in supporting the Aboriginal people. And I think times
are changing. So make sure your kids and your grandkids
(13:47):
are educated because you don't want to miss the boat.
You know, we've been dispossessed once. We don't want to
be dispossessed twice because we have missed the boat of education,
and our kids can't get jobs and things like that,
because kids will always need education, because white tide is
not going away. N that's the society we live in.
(14:09):
This system in one form or another, will be here.
Let's get on top of it. Let's change it, let's
make it out.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Well, that's a dad, you say, say you got to
learn them white fellow, learn that white follow way. Go
in there, go to those schools, Go and get a
good education if you want to go to university, or
go and get a job, but make sure you come
back to the community and you bring what you learned.
You bring it back to the community. That's what my
dad used to say, that you've got to learn both ways,
(14:36):
both words abrage and the world murrayworld, and you've got
to learn the western world, that white follow world. And
I always think, uncle, when I talk to everyday people,
especially the corporates that come and do black cart training,
we're talking about these two worlds. At Abersinal people are
navigating or even code switching, right, code switching. We're in
Aghbra's and the world. Next minute we're talking to white
(14:57):
files from the White Fellow world. We're going between these
two worlds at any given time, But how do we
She pushed the two worlds closer together so people from
both worlds have a good understanding of each other. And
that's one of my objectives. Like you said, we've got
to know that White Fellow world right, this Western society
that we now live in today. Otherwise we're going to
(15:19):
get left behind and we're already playing catch up.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, if we don't get on the front foot and
get ready, we'll still be talking about closing the gap
one hundred years time.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
That'll be. That's probably my worst fear is the fact
that more likely my children will be doing the work
that I'm doing today. My dad did this work. My
grandmother did it till she passed away. Annie Lilla, my
grandmother's sister, my business partner, she's eighty and she only
just recently uncle. She said, oh, I'm hanging up the boots,
(15:53):
my girl. I don't want to be doing this work
at eighty. I'm thirty seven, and I really do hope
that all Astra All Australians start to do their own research.
Just as if you're going to go to China on
a holiday. You learn about the country. You learn about
(16:13):
the dos that do not, what's polite, how to say
please and thank you, or maybe how to order it,
you know, a meal in the local language. As you
travel around, you kind of research that people need to
do when engaging with our mob when coming into our communities.
How do you conduct yourself as a visitor because you're
(16:33):
on somebody else's country. Whether you agree or not, you're
a visitor on somebody else's country and you should be
conducting yourself in that manner.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I've just got a new book out called Loving Country,
which is about Aboriginal tourism. You know the tourist operations
that Aboriginal people have started up in Australia. Definitely that
both Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australians can visit different parts
of the country and go on a tour with Aboriginal people,
(17:15):
so that money goes into that community. But also learn
those stories and do what your science is. Be respectful,
learn what you need to do to be respectful, how
you behave yourself on that country. So that you're not
offending local people and their ancestors. And you know, I
think that our communities are going to benefit a lot
(17:39):
from tourism because there's a huge international audience for knowledge
of Aboriginal culture and life. It's not so big in Australia,
but it will grow definitely, and it's going to grow
this summer because Australians can't go to Bali anymore. You know,
if they're going to have a holiday, they're going to
have it in Australia. And it's domestic beyond Aboriginal.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yep, that domestic market yep.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So you know, communities can take advantage of this economically,
but also it's a way of controlling the experience and
controlling the behavior of visitors to your land.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, so there's some amazing resources out there. You just
named your new book, but I actually want to now
talk about what you're well known for. And I know
that you've been teaching history in schools I heard from
from a long time ago. You've been in that education
space and writing books and exploring our history as Aboriginal
(18:40):
people in this country, in particular when it comes to agriculture.
So dark em you black Seeds agriculture or accident. You know,
has attracted considerable attention, you know, for your discussion around
land management practices in Australia, But prior to colonization, can
you talk to our listeners or share with our listeners
(19:02):
how dark em you come about?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Ah, Look, it started in anger, and you know I
had to. I had to control that because that's what
my mother and grandmother would have insisted on. No, you're
getting angry, you know, you've got to do something positive.
But I did feel angry because when I was I
(19:26):
was very ignorant of my own culture, incredibly ignorant, and
I was directed, who get a better understanding of that
culture and history by you know, the same people that
I was asking about my family, And I said, well,
you know, you can't just talk about your family, You've
(19:48):
got to talk about all the families and what happened.
And that led me to writing a book about the
Contact period war in Australia and from that I then
found all this information about what the so called Australian
explorers saw. Now, these explorers are revered, you know, they're
(20:13):
more revered than prime ministers and Donald Bradman. You know,
what they saw was seemed to be the gospel truth.
And what many of them wrote about was our bridgettal
people growing, irrigating, harvesting, threshing, converting grains and interurbors into
food products, making flour, the first people in the world
(20:37):
to bake bread sixty five thousand years ago. And you know,
I got angry because I was singing, how come I
never learned that our people made bread sixty five thousand
years ago? What geography teacher, what history teacher, what English
teacher decided that this was information an Australian kid, regardless
(21:01):
of whether they're white or black, should be denied. Who
decided that this wasn't interesting? You know? You know when
I did history and geography, I was learning about white
fellows in wool, white fellows in gold, white fellas, and
wheat white fellows and government. I didn't learn we were.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Left out of it completely right, as our original people
and what we did and how we were, you know,
managing the land was left out.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Of all of that. Yeah, and these are things that
aren't just interesting, they're valuable because we're failing to get
enough water to water these exotic introduced crops now like
bloody cotton and rice and things like that. I mean
when I say rice, I mean the European, the Asian rice. Yep,
(21:52):
not our rice, because our rice grew in our conditions.
But we're expending a lot of water on these exotic
crops in Australia when we had our own crops. And
if those pig headed pioneers had looked around to see
what our people were actually doing, they would have seen
that we were growing myrnon in one single field between
(22:16):
Melbourne and Adelaide, that the Abaginal grain belt was three
times as big as the current Australian wheat belt. All
those things which should have been ringing bells in their
ears and flashing red lights in their face, they this
is what this country is good at. These people have
been at it for one hundred thousand years. They know
(22:38):
what they're doing. Instead of that they get the race there. Yes,
we acknowledge our ways, because if they did, they would
have had to have said to themselves the invasion is illegal, of.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Course, of course. But when I think about uncle, the
fact that we had agriculture, right, I hear it a lot,
and I only heard it just recently. Honey Mary, an
amazing elder and academic political scientists, right. Ani Mari done
a session today and sha Alway says, oh, look, you've
got these racists. I still want to say that Aberiginal
people were so backwards that you didn't even discover the wheel.
(23:15):
Ani Mary said, there's a logical reason why we didn't
discover the wheel. You only need the wheel when you
have large scale agriculture, because then you need to cut
that agriculture that produce from one place to another place,
and then it needs to be sorted, it needs to
be counted, and that's when writing comes into play. So
(23:38):
we did not have writing. Writing took off in the
Middle East, in China and in India and those other
ancient countries. The land is so old, it's the driest
continent on the planet. We've lived through two ice ages.
We knew the land so well that we knew what
we could grow and what we could sustain, what the
land could sustain. And I think that's what people don't understand,
(24:01):
is that, you know, if we wanted to have smaller
scale agriculture, then we could, but there were some places
where we couldn't grow certain things. How can we get
when you think about a lot of our farmers, I
see them on the news every now and again, and
I'm always feeling a bit sorry for him. You know,
you go for these poor fellows, they've had a drought
(24:22):
for four years and all and all of their you know,
their cattle or sheep, whatever they've got, you know, don't
look don't look like they've had a feed for a while.
But how do we get them to realize right that
whatever they're trying to grow on farm? You know, over
all these years that you've had to go and all
(24:42):
these generations, and the fact that we're still having droughts,
you know, what are we going to do? How can
we get them to see, Okay, maybe you need to
change the way you're doing things.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Well, it's not going to be rocket science. It's going
to be pocket science. Because those fellows are going broke.
You know, they lurched from one drought to another, you know,
one blade on their crop to another, and you know,
because they're the wrong crops in the wrong country.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
You know, I was listening to a fellow last year
and he said, oh, I've just.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Plowed me land all me you know, only soils blowing
away or be soiled blowing up against me. Fence and
poor fellow me, poor fellow meat. And you know he is,
I know where his farm is. It's on the coast.
It is sand. It's one hundred percent sand. Our people
(25:40):
never plowed that. We're grou things in it.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
But we never expose that soil to the sun because
it blows away, you know, and it's you know, if
you can't, you know, think through your heart, then think
through your pocket. Realize you're going broken, that you've got
to change things. Have a look around, swallow your pride,
look at aboriginal farming practice and learn. And you know,
(26:06):
people say, oh, you didn't invent the wheel. No, well,
we didn't have a bullock and we didn't have a
horse exactly a cart behind. The kangaroos are very bloody, dangerously.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And we didn't enslave our people right, yeah, right to
do the work for us because we had no domestictable animals.
And that's really important that people understand the history of
this country. Then they'll make sense of that's why.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
They always yea. And we never had unemployment either because
everybody worked and everybody worked together, you know. But so
Thomas Mitchell talked about the vastness of that plane of
mono that grew between Melbourne and Adelaide. It's a massive
area of land devoted to that crop, crossed about four
(26:51):
language groups. Everybody had to cooperate in making that that cross.
Everybody had to cooperate in weeding it, because that's what
people did. They weeded out the wattle and eucalypse so
that they could soil could devote its energy to our food.
And we worked real hard at our mom in order
(27:13):
to get this food. You know, we weren't waves to anyone.
We just dug in, you know, we put in for
our community. And that when we loved it. And all
that stopped when our women went out into those plastures
of myrnon tubers and orchards and grasses and were shot
(27:37):
because white fellows said this is my land. When it stopped.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And I think that's what people need to understand the impacts,
the impact of colonialism, the fact that Aberaginal people right
across this country were taken from their lands. The ones
that survived the invasion, the ones that survived the massacres,
the ones that survived the poisoning of the water holes,
(28:05):
the ones that survived the smallpox epidemic. Right they did
so much to white bus out and we survived that.
And then they rounded us up and put us onto
missions and reserves to protect us because we were seen
as a race that was nearly extinct. That comes from Tyndale,
that Aberaginal language map, that anthropologist Tyndale who talked about
(28:27):
you know, Aboriginal people in the nineteen thirties were nearly extinct,
so being rounded up and put onto missions and reserves,
which were no different a reserve heat in Queensland, like
Palm Island, like Sherbourg, Warabinda, Yarraba, they were no different
to a concentration camp. The cruelty, the inhumane treatment, the abuse,
(28:49):
you know the fact that they took children from their
parents and sent young girls like my nan out to
work as a ten year old, a little black slave,
a domestic at ten. And this is what people need
to understand, this history of our country and the impacts
of colonialism and how it's disrupted our culture.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, my own family moved between Adelaide, Melbourne and Lunceston.
Every three or four years. They would get up and
move to one, you know, one of those sites of
one of those districts, and you know, I was always
wondering why were they so restless. They weren't restless. They're
(29:31):
running away.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
They're on the move, the on the move.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, and you know people are still doing that today,
abiding their kids from welfare. Still doing it today, you know,
because you know, I know, you know a number of
kids who are living in motel rooms have been taken
away from their parents and they're living in motel rooms.
(29:56):
That's the best the government can do. You know, thirteen
forteen year old kids living alone in a motile room.
So it's a repudiation of the whole society. There are
some of our kids have to be protected from our
own parents, no denying that, but what motel room?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Come on, you know, when you think about it, Uncle,
we're talking about the fact that there was a government
policy in place, you know, when my mum was little,
during her kind of generation, you know, where there was
a policy to actually forcibly remove abisinal children, especially if
they had European heritage. So my grandfather was an irishman.
My mum had red hair and freckles, you know, looked
(30:38):
as Irish as they come. She was a black woman
from Redfern, from the block. You know, she knew nothing
about her Irish ancestry because she was raised in an
institution the Stolen Generation back then when they took over
one hundred thousand children. They're removing Aboriginal children at a
rate that's much higher than they was during those times
(31:00):
when there was a policy in place. I'd just done
some research around on this that for sixty percent of
the Abriiginal children in our home care in New South Wales,
I think sixty are Aboriginal children. That's just New South Wales.
It's much higher than that in Western Australia, at ten
(31:21):
ten Aboriginal children in our home care compared to one.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
The rate is increasing, so the gap isn't closing, it's widening,
you know, And we have to call government to account
for this. But we also have to take some responsibility ourselves.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Of course, we have to be independent and say we're
not going to put up with this. We're not going
to do this anymore. We are not going to play
your game, you know. You know, we're not going to
go and stay on the doll So that every time
the government changes their mind, we have to line up
in a queue like in a concentration camp and sign
(31:59):
a new four that's a horrible lie. You know, we
should demand, you know, and refuse to cooperate. You know,
because our old people were never unemployed. Our old people
were never uneducated, you know, because the law insisted that
everybody got fed, everybody had an education, everybody had a
(32:20):
house somewhere to live and stayed with their family. Only
extended family, you know, where people that have several mothers,
several fathers, you know, a really well organized society different
to this one, but not worse, certainly not worse. No, no, no,
And you know we need to go back and admire
(32:44):
those principles and not accept the definition that is given
to us by white authorities. You know, they like to
call us hunters and gatherers. We did hunt, We did gather.
I still do it all the all the brothers and sisters.
We still go down, get bimbla prawn. You know, we're
still hunting in gathering. But we also grew. And the
(33:08):
reason they don't want to talk about what we grew
because that says that we were managing the land and
growing food, and that means that the colony is illegal.
I don't want to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Well, that anthropological definition, uncle, you know, that hunter gatherer
struggling to survive in a halsh cruel world. You know,
primitive hunter gatherer society has been the anthropological definition for
how long? And that's up to us now as absent
people like yourself and the books that you're publishing and
the work that you're doing, that we need to take
(33:43):
back that power of definition, start defining who we are,
where we come from, and what we're all about.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
We need to define ourselves and use our own words.
Who define ourselves too deadly?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Nowhere is it all?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Look?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I know that you don't have much time to go,
but all I want to say really quickly is that
maybe truth telling might be at the heart of all
of this. If we can come together and acknowledge the
true history of this country, maybe we can reset that
relationship and start from scratch again.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, I think you know, it was very positive in
South Africa. There's still a lot of problems there. But
you don't solve a two hundred yew problem in teen years.
You solve a two hundred new problem in two hundred years.
And you know that's how long we've got to wait.
So it's not not me, not my daughter, not my grandkids,
all their kids. It's great, great great grannies are going
(34:35):
to have to keep working, keep insisting on our on
our independence and our identity and our law too deadly.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
And it's a good way to say thank you. And
I know that you've got to run, but I just
want to say really quickly that it's been an absolute
pleasure to just have a little bit of time to
share the work that you're doing. And you know, keep
going with all the work that you do. And I
can't wait to see dark Emu the documentary. Good thank
you Uncle, Appreciating, No Worries, Happy n eight OK week
(35:09):
for yarn soon And that was the Deadly. Bruce Pascoe
In a member of the wather Wrong Aboriginal Cooperative of
Southern Australia. An award winning Australian writer, editor and anthologist.
His works have been published nationally and internationally and has
won several national literary competitions. He has combined writing fiction
(35:32):
and nonfiction with a career as a successful publisher and
has been the director of the Australian Studies Project for
the Commonwealth Schools Commission. He's also worked as a teacher, farmer, fisherman, barman, farm,
fence contractor, lecturer, Aboriginal language researcher, archaeological site worker and editor,
and also appeared in the SBSTV program First Australians. That's
(35:56):
a documentary that I think everyone should be watching if
you haven't already, First Australians and a shout out there
to SBS for the deadly world that you fellows are
doing as well. His book exploring the History of Aboriginal Agriculture,
Dark Emu, Black Seeds Agriculture or Accident, has attracted considerable
attention for its discussion of land management practices in Australia
(36:20):
prior to colonization, which we yarned about. You know, the
work that he's been doing in the agriculture space, in
farming and revitalizing some of our traditional food sources. You
know that we're nourishing like superfoods and the right plants
to be farming in the right country. So important to
understand the knowledge that our old people have passed down
(36:42):
over tens of thousands of years, so much to yarn about,
so much that this deadly fellow's doing. Not enough time
in the day to get him here and to keep
talking about all of the other things that he's doing
and writing. But I just want to say really quickly,
if you haven't read dark Emu, go on buy yourself
a copy, get online download it, Listen to the audiobook
(37:03):
Young dark em You for young people, dark em You
in the classroom for teachers, and then hopefully in twenty
twenty one we'll be able to see on the big
screen dark EMU the documentary. On that note, I hope
you've enjoyed this yarn with the deadly Uncle Bruce Pasco,
someone that I speak about every single day when I
(37:24):
deliver cultural education training and when I think about it,
we're trying to share with people who live in this
country and call this place home. We're trying to share
with you how we lived here, what we did, how
we did things, and how you can learn from us.
Dark em You unpack some of those early journals about
(37:47):
what those first explorers come across when they've seen us.
Those journals have been in the archives for a very
long time, and it's just interesting that it took someone
like Uncle Bruce Pasco to go and dig for these
journals to actually find some of the these early recordings
and evidence of how Aboriginal people weren't just wandering around
(38:09):
the land. We weren't primitive, uncivilized savages, you know, just
hunters and gatherers. And like I said, that adds apological
definition that's been in place since time, you know, then
first white Fellows came on the first fleet. We need
to take back that power of definition, and we need
to define who we are and where we come from
(38:31):
and what our culture is about. And I love the
fact that dark Emium is just one of those resources
that hopefully not just change your perspective, that you might
have a bit more appreciation for the beautiful country that
you now call home. So on that note, until next time,
(38:52):
take care of you. If you'd like any more on
today's guest, please visit our show notes in the episode description.
A big shout out to all you Deadly Mind and
allies who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast.
Your feedback means the world. You can rate and review
the podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to
(39:14):
our socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line.
We'd love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman
podcast is produced by Clint Curtis.
Black Cast, Unite our voices. Black Magic Woman Podcast acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land we have recorded this
episode on. We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land
where you, the listener of viewer, are tuning in from.
We would like to pay our respects to our elders
past and present and acknowledge that this always was Aboriginal
(00:25):
land and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to the
Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bail. I'd like to
begin this podcast by acknowledging the traditional owners here on
the Sunshine Coast where I am today, the gubby gubby
(00:47):
and cubby cubby people here at beautiful cool and Beach,
a beautiful part of the world. I'd also like to
extend my acknowledgment to traditional owners right across this country
from wherever this podcast has been listened to. It's always
a pleasure to have your company. And the person that
I'm yearning to today, deadly fellow that I had the
(01:09):
pleasure of meeting actually last year, someone that I had
heard of and heard my dad speak to and also
heard my dad interview on the radio. And you know,
a person that I would consider an uncle to me
in terms of the respect and the relationship that my
dad had with you. So I just want to say
uncle Bruce Pasco, thank you so much for taking time
(01:33):
out of your busy life to be on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Oh well, it's a pleasure and an honor. Yes, a
good week to be talking on radio too, it sure is. Yeah.
I'm a you and Budlong Tasmonian man. I live on
you in the country, very southern end of you and country,
but I'm traveling up to Melbourne at the moment and
(01:56):
I've stopped on the side of the highway of the
western edge of gunn Ony Country and I'm very happy
who have been able to talk to community today various
parts of the country. And you know, it's pretty important
for us because my community is working on the farm.
(02:19):
I've got a little farm on the Wide Gras River
in Victoria and that's the part of our une lands
and we employee local you and people on the farm
to grow our traditional foods. And there's a huge movement
(02:40):
of young Australians, both non Aboriginal and Aboriginal who are
interested in this sustainable and regenerative agriculture. When Europeans ignored
our history, they also ignored our agriculture and our plants
and injured mather earth. You know, the injury to mather
(03:02):
earth is evident every time the fish die in the
Murray Darling basin, every time the coral bleaches and Queensland,
every time our soil blows away in the malley and
you know, near Birdsville and places like that. You know,
it's because of bad agricultural practice, prove failure to acknowledge
(03:27):
original people's methods, and so we're trying to do something
about up there. And I've been forming to people today
from various parts of the countries who are involved in
trying to reverse those bad practices, and they're all Aboriginal.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
How deadly is that?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
The thrilled for me that Aboriginal people are so involved
in this regenerative movement because we can restore our culture
this way and restore our pride, but also be a
practical assistance to the communities, because instead of being employed
(04:09):
by government to do nothing, will be involved in growing
out traditional foods. You know, it seems that government love
Aboriginal people being unemployed because they train the hell out
of us and give us no job.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
You know, I don't know how many blackfellows have got certificates,
every certificate.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You can think of, Uncle right, the biggest food driving steamrollers,
you know, and we haven't got a steam roller down here.
So the have unemployed people, but they've all got steam
rollers certificates. You know. It's ridiculous. And the government talks
about closing gaps and stuff like that, but really the
(04:50):
only way to do it is make sure that Aborginal
people are part of society, are not deliberately kept out.
We don't want to be trained for training sakes. We
want a job, and if we've been training for that job,
then give a choice. But also make sure that educational
opportunities are available to us when our kids are young.
(05:10):
Of course they wait until they're unemployed in thirty five.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Of course, I think when I go back to hearing
my dad on radio, it was always always talking about
self determination. We need to be self determined and self governed,
And now I can see what he was talking about.
You know, when our mob have employment and they could
put food on the table and they're looking after their family,
(05:36):
that changes the narrative in that family, in that community.
But they're part of something much bigger than just going
to work. When they're doing stuff that actually makes them
feel good that they're contributing to society, that they're reinvigorating
their culture, their connection to country, their health and well being. Like,
(05:57):
I'm just thinking of some of the foods that you
might harvest. I heard that you've got kangaroo grass, which
is like a nourishing super food, you know, an alternative
to wheat.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, there's a lot of those foods that were growing.
You know, we're grown four or five different grasses converting
them all into flour. They're all gluten free. During COVID,
my daughter and her family had to stay on the
farm and my daughter was breaking a loc of bread
every second day from our flour and pleading it too.
(06:35):
Were kids by grandkids, and you know, we felt really
good about it. Not only we were learning our culture,
but we were growing up our kids as well. And
it was very important for Australia to learn that these
old groins were chosen for a reason because they're so healthy,
(06:58):
and they weren't chosen by accident. They were deliberately chosen
by the old because of their health giving properties. And
they don't need any more water than the the sky delivers.
What Mother Earth receives from Father Sky, and our tubers
(07:19):
are the same. They're perennials. So you don't need to
plow the land, you don't need to add extra water,
you don't need to put on fertilizer, you don't need
to put on pesticide and herbicide. So if farmers start
growing these, and hopefully a proportion of those farmers will
be our people, then we will be repairing the earth.
(07:45):
What average of people don't often have is land, so
that was taken away from us. So don't talk about
close in the gap. Talk about give it a bit
of land back to blackfellows so we can become independent.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I think that sounds good.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yep, Yeah, Well that's what Tiger was all always on about,
you know, us being independed, and so you know, I
really always enjoyed talking to him because he was a
very positive man. He didn't want to bitch a moment.
He wanted to get on with life, and he wanted
(08:20):
us all to get on with our lives. And here
was an inspiration to us.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Sure I was.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And I always always go back to when I'm sitting
here in a studio with a microphone in front of me, thinking,
I never ever thought that this would be what I do.
Even though I don't do this for my full time,
you know, full time job. This is my passion. My
passion is about how do we get other abishntage on
(08:47):
to people's right, How do we give them a voice.
How do we kind of amplify their voices so that
people not only in this country, uncle, We've got a
global audience now with this podcast. How can we share
our culture, our history, our knowledge, our experience, our inventions,
(09:10):
you know, just share our deadliness with the rest.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Of the world.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And that's what I enjoy doing and speaking to people
like yourself to just understand, you know, despite being a
black fella and despite all of the odds that are
against us, how do we draw from our strength? And
that's what my dad really kind of pushed with us
young people. You know, eight daughters, you know them old
people went through the fights and went through those struggles
(09:35):
for us to have what we have today. So how
can we draw from our strengths and not from our weaknesses.
And in terms of closing gap, I love the fact
that you mentioned that because I work in an industry where,
you know, everyone's talking about closing the gap. I always
always say to people, and this comes directly from my
old people, any mayor in Anililla, we're not all victims,
(09:56):
you know, We're we're owners and runners of country. We
ran an entire country for tens of thousands of years
without any outside interference, without a need for armies, police
and prisons, and we never invaded our neighbors. Uncle, We
ran this country. We might not have always had peace,
(10:18):
but it's not about living in peace. It's about how
do you have a stable, efficient society, stability and efficiency
that's going to last you tens of thousands of years.
How do you live in harmony and balance with the land,
you know, And that's what we need to do. That's
what we need to go back to when you think
about the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, there, we we had good government. Our people were
wise governors, and I had worked out a really good law,
l Ori, of how people ought to behave in respect
to the earth, not about ourselves, not about the inter
relationships between people necessarily, but about how we related to
(11:02):
the earth. And you know, that's why I think that
none abridging society, this is out on. So if we
can bring back our own culture, respect, our own culture,
each that culture to our kids and support them in
their learning, keep them at school. Look, don't worry about
(11:22):
getting a wide education, because it's an education and we
could build on top of that education. Because you do
the wide education, then you do your law as well.
You're twice educated, end up with two degrees and they're complementary.
And we can change wide education anyway. You know, we
can make sure that our history is included in But
(11:45):
if we can do that, we're going to help the
rest of Australia as well stop being such a racist country.
You know, I really hate that about my country. Then
it's a racist country. But when Aubriagal people are killed
in jail and nobody gives them cares about it, then
that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Systemic, systemic racism.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
My uncle in New South Wales glad it's perergically and
wanted to change one word in the national anthem to
get rid of young. You know, we are young and free.
She wanted to get rid of young and make it
one we are one and free. You know, just that
timey little change and the National Party went ape. You know, oh,
(12:27):
you know that's disrespectful to our ancestors. Our disrespectful is
it to our ancestors? Of course we have to change
the minds of those people.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Of course, what about I saw yesterday there when you're
thinking about government or parliament, I saw a tweet there
I think might have been from Lydia Thorpe talking about
the Liberal Party and I think it was one nation.
Both voted for the Aberginal flag not to be raised
in Nadock week in parliament. They both agreed, like seriously,
(13:02):
But that's where we're right when you think about politics,
and that's that is.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Look, the rest of Australia is leaving them, mum behind
of course, you know I shouldn't obsess about pulling hands
and I can't remember this guy's name today, the new
South Wales plumimenteering. You know, we're leaving them behind. The dinosaurs,
you know, of course our great great grandkids will be
picking up their bones and wondering who they were. You know,
(13:27):
there's this old fossils because you know, the rest of Australia,
young Australia. I'm sure it will soon be a majority
voice in supporting the Aboriginal people. And I think times
are changing. So make sure your kids and your grandkids
(13:47):
are educated because you don't want to miss the boat.
You know, we've been dispossessed once. We don't want to
be dispossessed twice because we have missed the boat of education,
and our kids can't get jobs and things like that,
because kids will always need education, because white tide is
not going away. N that's the society we live in.
(14:09):
This system in one form or another, will be here.
Let's get on top of it. Let's change it, let's
make it out.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Well, that's a dad, you say, say you got to
learn them white fellow, learn that white follow way. Go
in there, go to those schools, Go and get a
good education if you want to go to university, or
go and get a job, but make sure you come
back to the community and you bring what you learned.
You bring it back to the community. That's what my
dad used to say, that you've got to learn both ways,
(14:36):
both words abrage and the world murrayworld, and you've got
to learn the western world, that white follow world. And
I always think, uncle, when I talk to everyday people,
especially the corporates that come and do black cart training,
we're talking about these two worlds. At Abersinal people are
navigating or even code switching, right, code switching. We're in
Aghbra's and the world. Next minute we're talking to white
(14:57):
files from the White Fellow world. We're going between these
two worlds at any given time, But how do we
She pushed the two worlds closer together so people from
both worlds have a good understanding of each other. And
that's one of my objectives. Like you said, we've got
to know that White Fellow world right, this Western society
that we now live in today. Otherwise we're going to
(15:19):
get left behind and we're already playing catch up.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, if we don't get on the front foot and
get ready, we'll still be talking about closing the gap
one hundred years time.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
That'll be. That's probably my worst fear is the fact
that more likely my children will be doing the work
that I'm doing today. My dad did this work. My
grandmother did it till she passed away. Annie Lilla, my
grandmother's sister, my business partner, she's eighty and she only
just recently uncle. She said, oh, I'm hanging up the boots,
(15:53):
my girl. I don't want to be doing this work
at eighty. I'm thirty seven, and I really do hope
that all Astra All Australians start to do their own research.
Just as if you're going to go to China on
a holiday. You learn about the country. You learn about
(16:13):
the dos that do not, what's polite, how to say
please and thank you, or maybe how to order it,
you know, a meal in the local language. As you
travel around, you kind of research that people need to
do when engaging with our mob when coming into our communities.
How do you conduct yourself as a visitor because you're
(16:33):
on somebody else's country. Whether you agree or not, you're
a visitor on somebody else's country and you should be
conducting yourself in that manner.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I've just got a new book out called Loving Country,
which is about Aboriginal tourism. You know the tourist operations
that Aboriginal people have started up in Australia. Definitely that
both Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australians can visit different parts
of the country and go on a tour with Aboriginal people,
(17:15):
so that money goes into that community. But also learn
those stories and do what your science is. Be respectful,
learn what you need to do to be respectful, how
you behave yourself on that country. So that you're not
offending local people and their ancestors. And you know, I
think that our communities are going to benefit a lot
(17:39):
from tourism because there's a huge international audience for knowledge
of Aboriginal culture and life. It's not so big in Australia,
but it will grow definitely, and it's going to grow
this summer because Australians can't go to Bali anymore. You know,
if they're going to have a holiday, they're going to
have it in Australia. And it's domestic beyond Aboriginal.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yep, that domestic market yep.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So you know, communities can take advantage of this economically,
but also it's a way of controlling the experience and
controlling the behavior of visitors to your land.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, so there's some amazing resources out there. You just
named your new book, but I actually want to now
talk about what you're well known for. And I know
that you've been teaching history in schools I heard from
from a long time ago. You've been in that education
space and writing books and exploring our history as Aboriginal
(18:40):
people in this country, in particular when it comes to agriculture.
So dark em you black Seeds agriculture or accident. You know,
has attracted considerable attention, you know, for your discussion around
land management practices in Australia, But prior to colonization, can
you talk to our listeners or share with our listeners
(19:02):
how dark em you come about?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Ah, Look, it started in anger, and you know I
had to. I had to control that because that's what
my mother and grandmother would have insisted on. No, you're
getting angry, you know, you've got to do something positive.
But I did feel angry because when I was I
(19:26):
was very ignorant of my own culture, incredibly ignorant, and
I was directed, who get a better understanding of that
culture and history by you know, the same people that
I was asking about my family, And I said, well,
you know, you can't just talk about your family, You've
(19:48):
got to talk about all the families and what happened.
And that led me to writing a book about the
Contact period war in Australia and from that I then
found all this information about what the so called Australian
explorers saw. Now, these explorers are revered, you know, they're
(20:13):
more revered than prime ministers and Donald Bradman. You know,
what they saw was seemed to be the gospel truth.
And what many of them wrote about was our bridgettal
people growing, irrigating, harvesting, threshing, converting grains and interurbors into
food products, making flour, the first people in the world
(20:37):
to bake bread sixty five thousand years ago. And you know,
I got angry because I was singing, how come I
never learned that our people made bread sixty five thousand
years ago? What geography teacher, what history teacher, what English
teacher decided that this was information an Australian kid, regardless
(21:01):
of whether they're white or black, should be denied. Who
decided that this wasn't interesting? You know? You know when
I did history and geography, I was learning about white
fellows in wool, white fellows in gold, white fellas, and
wheat white fellows and government. I didn't learn we were.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Left out of it completely right, as our original people
and what we did and how we were, you know,
managing the land was left out.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Of all of that. Yeah, and these are things that
aren't just interesting, they're valuable because we're failing to get
enough water to water these exotic introduced crops now like
bloody cotton and rice and things like that. I mean
when I say rice, I mean the European, the Asian rice. Yep,
(21:52):
not our rice, because our rice grew in our conditions.
But we're expending a lot of water on these exotic
crops in Australia when we had our own crops. And
if those pig headed pioneers had looked around to see
what our people were actually doing, they would have seen
that we were growing myrnon in one single field between
(22:16):
Melbourne and Adelaide, that the Abaginal grain belt was three
times as big as the current Australian wheat belt. All
those things which should have been ringing bells in their
ears and flashing red lights in their face, they this
is what this country is good at. These people have
been at it for one hundred thousand years. They know
(22:38):
what they're doing. Instead of that they get the race there. Yes,
we acknowledge our ways, because if they did, they would
have had to have said to themselves the invasion is illegal, of.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Course, of course. But when I think about uncle, the
fact that we had agriculture, right, I hear it a lot,
and I only heard it just recently. Honey Mary, an
amazing elder and academic political scientists, right. Ani Mari done
a session today and sha Alway says, oh, look, you've
got these racists. I still want to say that Aberiginal
people were so backwards that you didn't even discover the wheel.
(23:15):
Ani Mary said, there's a logical reason why we didn't
discover the wheel. You only need the wheel when you
have large scale agriculture, because then you need to cut
that agriculture that produce from one place to another place,
and then it needs to be sorted, it needs to
be counted, and that's when writing comes into play. So
(23:38):
we did not have writing. Writing took off in the
Middle East, in China and in India and those other
ancient countries. The land is so old, it's the driest
continent on the planet. We've lived through two ice ages.
We knew the land so well that we knew what
we could grow and what we could sustain, what the
land could sustain. And I think that's what people don't understand,
(24:01):
is that, you know, if we wanted to have smaller
scale agriculture, then we could, but there were some places
where we couldn't grow certain things. How can we get
when you think about a lot of our farmers, I
see them on the news every now and again, and
I'm always feeling a bit sorry for him. You know,
you go for these poor fellows, they've had a drought
(24:22):
for four years and all and all of their you know,
their cattle or sheep, whatever they've got, you know, don't
look don't look like they've had a feed for a while.
But how do we get them to realize right that
whatever they're trying to grow on farm? You know, over
all these years that you've had to go and all
(24:42):
these generations, and the fact that we're still having droughts,
you know, what are we going to do? How can
we get them to see, Okay, maybe you need to
change the way you're doing things.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Well, it's not going to be rocket science. It's going
to be pocket science. Because those fellows are going broke.
You know, they lurched from one drought to another, you know,
one blade on their crop to another, and you know,
because they're the wrong crops in the wrong country.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
You know, I was listening to a fellow last year
and he said, oh, I've just.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Plowed me land all me you know, only soils blowing
away or be soiled blowing up against me. Fence and
poor fellow me, poor fellow meat. And you know he is,
I know where his farm is. It's on the coast.
It is sand. It's one hundred percent sand. Our people
(25:40):
never plowed that. We're grou things in it.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
But we never expose that soil to the sun because
it blows away, you know, and it's you know, if
you can't, you know, think through your heart, then think
through your pocket. Realize you're going broken, that you've got
to change things. Have a look around, swallow your pride,
look at aboriginal farming practice and learn. And you know,
(26:06):
people say, oh, you didn't invent the wheel. No, well,
we didn't have a bullock and we didn't have a
horse exactly a cart behind. The kangaroos are very bloody, dangerously.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And we didn't enslave our people right, yeah, right to
do the work for us because we had no domestictable animals.
And that's really important that people understand the history of
this country. Then they'll make sense of that's why.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
They always yea. And we never had unemployment either because
everybody worked and everybody worked together, you know. But so
Thomas Mitchell talked about the vastness of that plane of
mono that grew between Melbourne and Adelaide. It's a massive
area of land devoted to that crop, crossed about four
(26:51):
language groups. Everybody had to cooperate in making that that cross.
Everybody had to cooperate in weeding it, because that's what
people did. They weeded out the wattle and eucalypse so
that they could soil could devote its energy to our food.
And we worked real hard at our mom in order
(27:13):
to get this food. You know, we weren't waves to anyone.
We just dug in, you know, we put in for
our community. And that when we loved it. And all
that stopped when our women went out into those plastures
of myrnon tubers and orchards and grasses and were shot
(27:37):
because white fellows said this is my land. When it stopped.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And I think that's what people need to understand the impacts,
the impact of colonialism, the fact that Aberaginal people right
across this country were taken from their lands. The ones
that survived the invasion, the ones that survived the massacres,
the ones that survived the poisoning of the water holes,
(28:05):
the ones that survived the smallpox epidemic. Right they did
so much to white bus out and we survived that.
And then they rounded us up and put us onto
missions and reserves to protect us because we were seen
as a race that was nearly extinct. That comes from Tyndale,
that Aberaginal language map, that anthropologist Tyndale who talked about
(28:27):
you know, Aboriginal people in the nineteen thirties were nearly extinct,
so being rounded up and put onto missions and reserves,
which were no different a reserve heat in Queensland, like
Palm Island, like Sherbourg, Warabinda, Yarraba, they were no different
to a concentration camp. The cruelty, the inhumane treatment, the abuse,
(28:49):
you know the fact that they took children from their
parents and sent young girls like my nan out to
work as a ten year old, a little black slave,
a domestic at ten. And this is what people need
to understand, this history of our country and the impacts
of colonialism and how it's disrupted our culture.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, my own family moved between Adelaide, Melbourne and Lunceston.
Every three or four years. They would get up and
move to one, you know, one of those sites of
one of those districts, and you know, I was always
wondering why were they so restless. They weren't restless. They're
(29:31):
running away.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
They're on the move, the on the move.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, and you know people are still doing that today,
abiding their kids from welfare. Still doing it today, you know,
because you know, I know, you know a number of
kids who are living in motel rooms have been taken
away from their parents and they're living in motel rooms.
(29:56):
That's the best the government can do. You know, thirteen
forteen year old kids living alone in a motile room.
So it's a repudiation of the whole society. There are
some of our kids have to be protected from our
own parents, no denying that, but what motel room?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Come on, you know, when you think about it, Uncle,
we're talking about the fact that there was a government
policy in place, you know, when my mum was little,
during her kind of generation, you know, where there was
a policy to actually forcibly remove abisinal children, especially if
they had European heritage. So my grandfather was an irishman.
My mum had red hair and freckles, you know, looked
(30:38):
as Irish as they come. She was a black woman
from Redfern, from the block. You know, she knew nothing
about her Irish ancestry because she was raised in an
institution the Stolen Generation back then when they took over
one hundred thousand children. They're removing Aboriginal children at a
rate that's much higher than they was during those times
(31:00):
when there was a policy in place. I'd just done
some research around on this that for sixty percent of
the Abriiginal children in our home care in New South Wales,
I think sixty are Aboriginal children. That's just New South Wales.
It's much higher than that in Western Australia, at ten
(31:21):
ten Aboriginal children in our home care compared to one.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
The rate is increasing, so the gap isn't closing, it's widening,
you know, And we have to call government to account
for this. But we also have to take some responsibility ourselves.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Of course, we have to be independent and say we're
not going to put up with this. We're not going
to do this anymore. We are not going to play
your game, you know. You know, we're not going to
go and stay on the doll So that every time
the government changes their mind, we have to line up
in a queue like in a concentration camp and sign
(31:59):
a new four that's a horrible lie. You know, we
should demand, you know, and refuse to cooperate. You know,
because our old people were never unemployed. Our old people
were never uneducated, you know, because the law insisted that
everybody got fed, everybody had an education, everybody had a
(32:20):
house somewhere to live and stayed with their family. Only
extended family, you know, where people that have several mothers,
several fathers, you know, a really well organized society different
to this one, but not worse, certainly not worse. No, no, no,
And you know we need to go back and admire
(32:44):
those principles and not accept the definition that is given
to us by white authorities. You know, they like to
call us hunters and gatherers. We did hunt, We did gather.
I still do it all the all the brothers and sisters.
We still go down, get bimbla prawn. You know, we're
still hunting in gathering. But we also grew. And the
(33:08):
reason they don't want to talk about what we grew
because that says that we were managing the land and
growing food, and that means that the colony is illegal.
I don't want to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Well, that anthropological definition, uncle, you know, that hunter gatherer
struggling to survive in a halsh cruel world. You know,
primitive hunter gatherer society has been the anthropological definition for
how long? And that's up to us now as absent
people like yourself and the books that you're publishing and
the work that you're doing, that we need to take
(33:43):
back that power of definition, start defining who we are,
where we come from, and what we're all about.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
We need to define ourselves and use our own words.
Who define ourselves too deadly?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Nowhere is it all?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Look?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I know that you don't have much time to go,
but all I want to say really quickly is that
maybe truth telling might be at the heart of all
of this. If we can come together and acknowledge the
true history of this country, maybe we can reset that
relationship and start from scratch again.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, I think you know, it was very positive in
South Africa. There's still a lot of problems there. But
you don't solve a two hundred yew problem in teen years.
You solve a two hundred new problem in two hundred years.
And you know that's how long we've got to wait.
So it's not not me, not my daughter, not my grandkids,
all their kids. It's great, great great grannies are going
(34:35):
to have to keep working, keep insisting on our on
our independence and our identity and our law too deadly.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
And it's a good way to say thank you. And
I know that you've got to run, but I just
want to say really quickly that it's been an absolute
pleasure to just have a little bit of time to
share the work that you're doing. And you know, keep
going with all the work that you do. And I
can't wait to see dark Emu the documentary. Good thank
you Uncle, Appreciating, No Worries, Happy n eight OK week
(35:09):
for yarn soon And that was the Deadly. Bruce Pascoe
In a member of the wather Wrong Aboriginal Cooperative of
Southern Australia. An award winning Australian writer, editor and anthologist.
His works have been published nationally and internationally and has
won several national literary competitions. He has combined writing fiction
(35:32):
and nonfiction with a career as a successful publisher and
has been the director of the Australian Studies Project for
the Commonwealth Schools Commission. He's also worked as a teacher, farmer, fisherman, barman, farm,
fence contractor, lecturer, Aboriginal language researcher, archaeological site worker and editor,
and also appeared in the SBSTV program First Australians. That's
(35:56):
a documentary that I think everyone should be watching if
you haven't already, First Australians and a shout out there
to SBS for the deadly world that you fellows are
doing as well. His book exploring the History of Aboriginal Agriculture,
Dark Emu, Black Seeds Agriculture or Accident, has attracted considerable
attention for its discussion of land management practices in Australia
(36:20):
prior to colonization, which we yarned about. You know, the
work that he's been doing in the agriculture space, in
farming and revitalizing some of our traditional food sources. You
know that we're nourishing like superfoods and the right plants
to be farming in the right country. So important to
understand the knowledge that our old people have passed down
(36:42):
over tens of thousands of years, so much to yarn about,
so much that this deadly fellow's doing. Not enough time
in the day to get him here and to keep
talking about all of the other things that he's doing
and writing. But I just want to say really quickly,
if you haven't read dark Emu, go on buy yourself
a copy, get online download it, Listen to the audiobook
(37:03):
Young dark em You for young people, dark em You
in the classroom for teachers, and then hopefully in twenty
twenty one we'll be able to see on the big
screen dark EMU the documentary. On that note, I hope
you've enjoyed this yarn with the deadly Uncle Bruce Pasco,
someone that I speak about every single day when I
(37:24):
deliver cultural education training and when I think about it,
we're trying to share with people who live in this
country and call this place home. We're trying to share
with you how we lived here, what we did, how
we did things, and how you can learn from us.
Dark em You unpack some of those early journals about
(37:47):
what those first explorers come across when they've seen us.
Those journals have been in the archives for a very
long time, and it's just interesting that it took someone
like Uncle Bruce Pasco to go and dig for these
journals to actually find some of the these early recordings
and evidence of how Aboriginal people weren't just wandering around
(38:09):
the land. We weren't primitive, uncivilized savages, you know, just
hunters and gatherers. And like I said, that adds apological
definition that's been in place since time, you know, then
first white Fellows came on the first fleet. We need
to take back that power of definition, and we need
to define who we are and where we come from
(38:31):
and what our culture is about. And I love the
fact that dark Emium is just one of those resources
that hopefully not just change your perspective, that you might
have a bit more appreciation for the beautiful country that
you now call home. So on that note, until next time,
(38:52):
take care of you. If you'd like any more on
today's guest, please visit our show notes in the episode description.
A big shout out to all you Deadly Mind and
allies who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast.
Your feedback means the world. You can rate and review
the podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to
(39:14):
our socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line.
We'd love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman
podcast is produced by Clint Curtis.
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