April 22, 2025 • 26 mins
This special replay takes us back to one of the very first episodes of the Black Magic Woman Podcast, originally recorded in 2020. Uncle Mick Gooda—respected Gungalu and Yiman man, former Social Justice Commissioner, and long-time advocate for our mob—joins Mundanara for a powerful yarn about truth-telling, sovereignty, the history of missions like Taroom and Purga, and the legacy of community-driven education through the Murri School.
In a time when COVID-19 was redefining how we stayed connected, this episode reminded us of our resilience and adaptability—and those lessons still ring true today.
We’re working hard behind the scenes to bring you new and exciting weekly episodes, so thanks for sticking with us while we get back into the swing of things.
Recommendations throughout this episode:
https://www.referendumcouncil.org.au/council/mick-gooda.html
Website: www.blackmagicwoman.com.au
Follow us on Instagram - @blackmagicwomanpodcast
The Black Magic Woman Podcast is hosted by Mundanara Bayles and is an uplifting conversational style program featuring mainly Aboriginal guests and explores issues of importance to Aboriginal people and communities. Mundanara is guided by Aboriginal Terms of Reference and focusses more on who people are rather than on what they do.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast, Londonara Bail.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
When you look at our mob, everyone thought we were
just going to die out. What will happen?
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Probably the most adaptable people on the planet and did
emergence of the huminality again that I find thone, Richard
be why to be whitely white?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Look at ways to cost saved so that at the
end of the day your door is still.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Open water Molly and thanks for joining. You're listening to
Mondonara Bales. And my guest today is Uncle met Gooda.
And before we start, Uncle Meck, it's important you know
that first and foremost we follow proper protocol and acknowledge
the traditional owners of the land that we're gathering on today.
(00:47):
And I'm on Kubby Cubby Country also known as Gubby
Gubby Country here on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, and
I also want to acknowledge elders past and present and
over your.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Uncle same Mondonari, I'm a Gungloo man. On my mother's side,
I think we're same. Move on that side, me and
you and we are. And on my dad's side, I'm Yeman.
So my people were really concentrated in central Queensland we
(01:22):
didn't venture far outside that area. But at the moment
I'm in Marlingali country down past Perga Mission on a
farm overlooking the Limestone Ridges.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Socperga Mission is in Queensland right just outside of it.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
In Queensland, it's outside ipswhich it was. It was one
of the first missions in Queensland. Perga. Lots of people
got taken into Perga from all around, same as my
grandfather was in the Tarum Mission back in nineteen twenty
six and the government decided they're going to build a
(02:01):
damn and they shifted people out of t Room Mission
into Cherburg and then half the mob went to Shecherburg.
Half the other mob walked about two hundred and fifty
kilometers and to where Warrebinder is now. And when they
got to war a Binder, my people people are still
living on country then, so we've got big connections through
(02:25):
that part of the country. But Berger was like Tarroom Mission.
They brought people from all over northern New South Wales
our way out west of Queensland into both Perga and
to Room missions, so they were really big missions back
in the day.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Uncle.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I just saw a book recently that I'll have to
give you about Turrum Mission.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I'd love to see it.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, it's got all of the there's all of this
evidence in this book from an archaeologist and from some
you know Murray Fellers, Yeah, talking about the history of
Turum Mission, and they've done this kind of aerial imaging
of their land and where there's oh Murray Fellers had
(03:10):
identified where certain things were built. The aerial image actually
was not even a meter away from where they said
things were and this has gone back seventy years ago.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Uncle.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah. Well I went out there for the room for
the the Yeman Determination Native Total Determination and Marcia Langton's
also Yemen, and her daughter Ruby was there. So the
play people are on the property where the mission was talking.
Ruby and I out to have a look and there's
(03:43):
not much out there now, but you got you know,
as soon as you get there, you get that eerie
feeling that you sort of get me go and you
know you're belonging somewhere because that's my dad's side Yeman.
So but it was really interesting. I was there for
that determination and and the biggest mobile Blackfellows you know,
(04:06):
from all over central Queensland and further Afield were there.
And when the judge got up and said, I'm not
here to give you a native title. And everyone's face dropped,
you know it, and we were looking at each other
and he said, I can't give you something you've owned
for thousands of years. All I'm doing today is recognizing
your ownership and Australian law, which was really powerful. You know,
(04:30):
it's not not it's not something government can give us.
It's like sovereignty. You know, people say, oh, we want
government to give us sovereignty. If you're trying to do that,
you're looking up the wrong You're looking in the wrong direction.
We assert sovereignty. We don't wait for people to give
it to us. So I thought that it was a
really interesting comment by the by the but by the
(04:53):
justice reeves that that that determination and and and and
like all mobs across Australia, we have a pretty sad
history there. There was massacre out that way, there were
reprisals that went on for like forty years. If you
were obriginal in those areas, you just got shot back
(05:13):
in the day. So sad, sad places.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, well, that uncle in that book that I just saw,
brother Adam Bray, you probably come across Adam. He's a
Gungaloo man as well. Yeah, yeah, he actually gave me
this book. I ran into him randomly on the Gold
Coast for the was there for the Indigenous All Stars game,
and brother Walker towards me nine o'clock at night after
(05:37):
having dinner somewhere at Southport. He said where you stay
and I said here, Mareton And next minute in the
morning he came down and gave me this book about
to rum Mission and uncle.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I'd love to see it.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Oh, look, I've got a copy for you.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I went out and took a copy to any Little
straight away and all of the family names are in
that in that book. But yeah, what also was there
on this it's now it's cattle property, right, was a
whole lot of remains Skealita remains. So obviously that was
either a massacre site where all those bodies were either
(06:14):
dumped or buried, or that was the graveyard.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Either way, there.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Was There was a story from the Murray's from that
area who were telling stories that have been passed down
right yep, and it just matched up with exactly what
they were saying when the aerial imaging came over.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I'd believe that. I'd absolutely believe that because Adam
Adam was actually with Ruby and I that day. We
went to look at the property, the old mission. But
you never guess. We were sitting there and they were
cutting trees down. I said, what's going on? They said, well,
after nearly one hundred years, they've finally going to build
a dam out here. So you know, Queensland has this
(06:59):
history of moving Aboriginal people to build things and then
they don't do it. So the dam to room and
of course the big port they were going to build it.
Martpoune shifted all them people back in the nineteen sixties,
you know, and burned the place down and then never
(07:21):
built the port.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
It's all there, isn't an Uncle.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's still there. I was up there just before Christmas
at Marpoune. Sad place, you know when you feel the history,
but sad in one way, but also shows the resilience
of our more. You know, they're not given up. They're
sitting there. And if it's reminding the rest of Australia
what happened, good, because we need reminding.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
And when you talk about resilience, Uncle, you know, when
I it just brings me back to this current climate,
current situation that we're in today in this country, which
is this COVID nineteen and Uncle you being on the
board of Murray School. You know, in the history of
Murray School with our family, you know, Uncle Ross Watson,
(08:12):
my grandmother's brother, was the founder of the Murray School
and until recently, you know, dad was still chair of
the Murray School. And I'm a past student. I graduated
at the Murray School in nineteen ninety four. In year seven,
there was about eleven not even eleven kids, Uncle, there
(08:32):
might have been about six of us in grade seven
that graduated. And you know, for me, there's probably twenty
five kids in the school at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
So for me to.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Be a past student of the school and also be
on the board, it's an absolute honor that's been part
of our family's legacy and it's I guess I just
want to say to people that are listening to this
podcast that there's all these different directions that this yarn
can go into, but the first thing that I wanted
(09:05):
to mention is that we have reconnected in terms of
me and you reconnected because we're both on the board
of the Murray School. In light of what's going on today.
I just thought you'd be a perfect person to have
a yarn with.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well, well, we have a few connections. One is our mob,
Gungloo Mob. The second is that Murray School. But thirdlymen,
I'm remembering being interviewed by your dad lots of times
when I was when I was, you know, at the
Corportive Research Center for Abraaginal Health, and then I joined
(09:40):
the Human Rights Commission, So like your dad was one
of the great advocates and would get us on to
a whole range of people on these programs to you know,
to make sure how I'm all about. There were as
informed as they could be about what was happening. So
I think I think it's it's sort of that similar
tree we talked about, you know, and the family connections
(10:02):
and all that. You know, we all sort of joined
together and say it's a small world, but our worll
is different to that. We have these connections all through
our generations and this is just this is the latest
iteration you and I on the Murray's School board. I
know our student. It's just great.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
And here with COVID nineteen, you know black Card, the
business that I run with with my grandmother's sister, Annie
Lilla Watson, and the other elders involved, Annie Mary Graham
and uncle Charlie Watson. I've been kind of I guess
it's not been forced into a position of trying to
reinvent our services or reinvent our business. But to me,
(10:44):
starting this podcast was about doing exactly I guess what
Dad was doing. How do we engage with our mob
and how do we share stories of resilience and stories
that might be challenging but so inspiring. So for all
of the tough times at the moment that we're facing
(11:04):
and that we will continue to face for who knows
how long, how do we stay positive, how do we
get through these times? And how do we I guess,
inspire and lift each other so that we can get
through this together.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I'm so glad to see you doing this because it's original.
People have this oral history and we love telling stories,
and we get messages through stories. You know, before you know,
I know when I was growing up, listen to mom
and dad and my nan and grandfather talking and aunties
and uncles, and when I look back now, they weren't
(11:41):
just stories. They're actually telling you lessons, They're giving you
lessons through those stories. And I think the medium may
have changed. We're using twenty first century media like podcasts,
but the concept's exactly the same. It's getting the message
out talking to people. And I sort of agree with
(12:04):
this fellow from America. He wrote about business and he
challenged Darwin's theory of evolution and survival of the fittest
and the strongest and the smartest, and his view was
the people who are the most adaptable survive. And when
you look at our mob, we have adapted. Yeah, everyone
(12:25):
thought we were just going to die out, but we haven't.
Were the fastest growing cohort within the Australian community right now,
so we're adapting and we're just I'd love to see
how you're adapting this now to getting the message out
with lots of stories and the story of what we're
going through right now. We've never seen anything like this
(12:46):
in our time and we will survive this. We will adapt,
We'll get on. We will make sure the Murray School
operates as an outreach service. If they close schools down,
we'll keep connected with our students, will keep connected with
the stuff from or keep connected with our families. It'll
be just a different way of doing it.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Mm hmm, Well I wanted to say that, you know,
you and I have had many yarns, you know, offline
and during board meetings and whatever, but we've had many
yarns about how we could, how we could do more
in our community, how we can support our community, how
we can I guess partner with other service providers like
the medical Services and the Institute by Yui and people
(13:28):
like that.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
So in terms of this.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Current situation, uncle, we were having a yarn before and
you're talking about some of the young kids that are
in these boarding schools.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Can you share some of the story with life.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Well, there hasn't been in Queensland, at least closing down
our schools, but up North, I'm aware of boarding schools
with the majority of whom are Aberaginal toss rate onness
students and parents wanted them home straight away, which is understandable.
The Prime Minister made a sayment on Sunday night saying
(14:06):
we're not closing schools, but if parents are uncomfortable with
their kids being at school, take them home, look after them.
And I think that's what the mob up north wanted
to do. But you know, same with bureaucracy there, there
was problems getting their flights back and all that, but
again that's now back on track. So these things are
(14:27):
happening right now as we speak, and I understand, you
can understand how parents are worried about their kids right
in the middle of this pandemic, and they want them
home and and that's why it's going to happen, and
that's why we'll operate at the Morrow School.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I saw something come through from our principle this morning
and it was a PowerPoint, which is really deadly.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You know, it's great, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
The communication it's constant that we're getting these updates as
aboard right and what our deputies are doing. Can you
share some information about that.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Well, last week we had a meeting it looked like
there was a move to close the school down. I
talked to all the board members. We went there with
a view that and set it to all the staff
that our main concern was our students and our staff,
that they're they're they're Without those, we don't have school,
(15:23):
and we will we will make the decisions in the
best interests of both the students and the staff. But
we've got to make fully informed decisions about where we are,
and there was a bit of a move to close
the school, but we said, no, no, there's let's work
(15:45):
on this because there's risks of kids, our children being
at school, but there's also risks of them not being
at school, and we've got to manage those risks. And
I've got no doubt somewhere in the near future they
will close the schools. But when they do, the Murray's
is going to be in a better position than most.
(16:07):
We have some things that are really positive for us
to keep the connection going. For instance, ninety percent of
our kids are picked up by buses, so we've got
buses from the school visiting houses and homes twice a day,
pick up kids in the morning, drop them off in
the afternoon. So we used to connecting with houses and
(16:27):
households and homes and parents and carers. We know that
soon as that happens, we can reach out and let
our parents know and our cares know exactly what's happening
straight away. If we have to close the school, we'll
be able to get out there. We now had a
long conversation today with the Catholic Education Commission because with
(16:49):
their schools, they're in the same position as us. They'll
probably close shortly when the government makes a call, but
they're both of us are thinking about not actually closing
the school, but transitioning to it from a learning environment
at a school to a learning environment at home. And
how do we actually do that? And like you said,
(17:11):
our deputies have done a wonderful job getting packages together
that we can deliver. We're looking at maybe some sort
of it solutions, like if we have to dip into
our savings and buy make sure kids have got tablets
and if they don't have internet, pre load them with lessons.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I was just about to say that, sorry to cut
you off. I was just about to say, you know,
in terms of the digital divine with Aboriginal Antarishat Islander
communities and families, not every black fellow has a laptop
or a computer at home or a parent that has
access to devices and iPads and whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And then even before you mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
On the internetable exactly. So here we are in terms
of the Murray School. For people that are not familiar
with the Murray Schools location, it's in a case the
o Ridge in Brisbane here in Queensland, and it's one
of very few Aboriginal schools that that are run independently
in this country that are operated by community. You know,
(18:17):
there's a board that you know that runs this school.
So in terms of the school, and like you said,
dipping into savings to make sure that our kids have
access to technologies that they can keep on engaging with
their learning. This is this is new for us, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Oh, totally new and and we know we might have
to look around to get devices for our children and
our households. And if they don't, like I said, if
they don't have access to internet, we can pre load
lessons on tablets or laptops or whatever we end up with,
and then then there would have to be connection with
(18:55):
the teachers still save even though our view is that
even if the school closes to students, it doesn't shut
down altogether because we expect our teachers and the teachers
are absolutely up for this to keep the connection going
with our students and families. So it's just another of
those cases mandon Nara where I said we were the
(19:16):
most adaptable people. We will adapt to this, of.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Course, we will add and just talking about the education
and trying to set up this kind of outreach service
and making sure that the home environment is supported with
technology and devices. If Corporate Australia is listening to this podcast,
you know in terms of donating devices or some I
(19:42):
don't know what it is, but I'm just thinking for people.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Like Google that might be listening.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
You know that you know, Black can't engages with many
corporate clients that we roll out our training to. Is
there a message there for Corporate Australia to get involved
and to support our school, to support Aberaginal people and
communities in the Aboriginal business sector.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
What's your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Uncle, Well, look, I think this is a crisis like
we've never lived before. There's going to be just reading today,
there's going to be a million people unemployed. You look
at quite as dayly twenty thousand people. If we've closed
all sporting venues down, those people and a lot of
our my abusic casual work at those venues, that's no
(20:26):
longer possible. They're closing down hotels and cafes and restaurants.
If there's opportunities to do things a little bit differently
and you need extra sets of hands, think about the
Aboriginal Toyis Rate Onland Community Reach out to people like
(20:47):
the Murray School and the organizations in your area to
see what's going on, because we're certainly thinking about that
Monday and now are you. And I've had the discussion
of if in this outreach program we need extra extra people,
we're going to put them on because not only do
we outreach to our kids, but we actually provide employment
(21:09):
for someone. If we need extra people in the family
support unit that we run at the school because the
overwhelming need, we'll do that. So I think that's what
we've got to do. We've got to commit to not
only providing the services, but in providing the service, if
you need to employ someone, do it straight away. You're
(21:29):
giving people an opportunity not to. I went past Ipswich
yesterday and it was so sad to see this line
outside the Social services or whatever they sendle Link office.
You know, by the way, I think they could do
treat people a bit with a bit more dignity than
that they have a big line outside where everyone can
see them. That's not treating people with dignity. Having them
(21:53):
line up out on the street waiting to go into
the central Link office.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Scenes you might see and maybe in America.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Right yeah, yeah, it's it's shocking. I was taken back
really and I think, you know, people just we just
need to think a bit about the humanity of what
we're doing. But but if if, if you know, we're
we're in contact. I know b HP looking at devices
for kids in our situation. So we've made contact with
(22:21):
b h P about that. They're also looking at how
they actually can pull the other corporates together or the
corporates are coming together talk about how they can help
in in the remote areas as well, you know, so
so so you know, this is a chance for Australians
to stand up and look after those that are less
(22:44):
needy than than than you and and and if you know,
it can't be the dollar driving everything. This is this
is desperate times and we need desperate measures to make
sure we all get through this.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Of course, all.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right, so uncle, in terms of with Corp Australia, with government,
we're not for profit organizations and all the others in
between that have a reconciliation action plan. You know what
I say to people and what I am saying, and
this is a clear message now to the rest of Australia.
If you've got deliverables, then now's the time to deliver
(23:18):
on those. If you've got targets to achieve, then now's
the time to hit the targets and to reach the
targets instead of thinking, oh, okay, let's just see what
the next couple of weeks, the next couple of months
look like.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Manda naa, I think what we need to do and
get the message across and all of us, Blackfellow said
of the corporate world and the government world with things
like wraps, We're going to measure you how you deal
and deal with this in the hard times, not in
the good times. It's easy to do all the right
things when everything is nice and peachy. It's the reality
(23:55):
right now, and we will measure and we'll remember help
people deal with this crisis as a test of their
commitment to what they say they're going to do in
their wraps. So this is the time now to stand up.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And Uncle is saying that, you know, in terms of
building relations you know now it's critical.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right, absolutely critical.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Put these relationships into action, and hopefully we'll look back
from here and hopefully, you know, we will have strengthened
relationships with each other. You know, on an individual level,
on a business level, but also on a society level.
So on that note, I just want to say uncle,
you know it's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege
(24:40):
to yarn with you and to have you on my show,
and I look forward to seeing what we do over
the coming days. Even things are changing by the hour.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Right absolutely they're changing. But I think we as usual
will do the right thing. We'll live up to the
lead your dad and all your family what the vision
was for the Murray School and we'll lead the way
to Deadly Well.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Thank you very much, Uncle mecan in my father's language,
one and Molly, thank you till next time. And that
was Uncle meck Gooder, who was the former Aboriginal and
torrest Rate Islander Social Justice Commissioner of the Australian Human
Rights Commission from about two thousand and nine to twenty sixteen.
He was also the co Commissioner of the Royal Commissioner
(25:29):
with the Protection and Attention of Children in a Northern
Territory and also currently the chair of the Murray School
Board in Brisbane. And my next guest on Black Magic
Woman is Deadly Brother Leroy Wilkinson Martin, who's a dynamic
and innovative people and culture manager with a demonstrated history
of working in the nonprofit organization management industry and has
(25:52):
a deadly business called Dira dh Iara.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
That's all for now. I hope you can join me
next time. Black Magic form
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast, Londonara Bail.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
When you look at our mob, everyone thought we were
just going to die out. What will happen?
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Probably the most adaptable people on the planet and did
emergence of the huminality again that I find thone, Richard
be why to be whitely white?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Look at ways to cost saved so that at the
end of the day your door is still.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Open water Molly and thanks for joining. You're listening to
Mondonara Bales. And my guest today is Uncle met Gooda.
And before we start, Uncle Meck, it's important you know
that first and foremost we follow proper protocol and acknowledge
the traditional owners of the land that we're gathering on today.
(00:47):
And I'm on Kubby Cubby Country also known as Gubby
Gubby Country here on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, and
I also want to acknowledge elders past and present and
over your.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Uncle same Mondonari, I'm a Gungloo man. On my mother's side,
I think we're same. Move on that side, me and
you and we are. And on my dad's side, I'm Yeman.
So my people were really concentrated in central Queensland we
(01:22):
didn't venture far outside that area. But at the moment
I'm in Marlingali country down past Perga Mission on a
farm overlooking the Limestone Ridges.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Socperga Mission is in Queensland right just outside of it.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
In Queensland, it's outside ipswhich it was. It was one
of the first missions in Queensland. Perga. Lots of people
got taken into Perga from all around, same as my
grandfather was in the Tarum Mission back in nineteen twenty
six and the government decided they're going to build a
(02:01):
damn and they shifted people out of t Room Mission
into Cherburg and then half the mob went to Shecherburg.
Half the other mob walked about two hundred and fifty
kilometers and to where Warrebinder is now. And when they
got to war a Binder, my people people are still
living on country then, so we've got big connections through
(02:25):
that part of the country. But Berger was like Tarroom Mission.
They brought people from all over northern New South Wales
our way out west of Queensland into both Perga and
to Room missions, so they were really big missions back
in the day.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Uncle.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I just saw a book recently that I'll have to
give you about Turrum Mission.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I'd love to see it.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, it's got all of the there's all of this
evidence in this book from an archaeologist and from some
you know Murray Fellers, Yeah, talking about the history of
Turum Mission, and they've done this kind of aerial imaging
of their land and where there's oh Murray Fellers had
(03:10):
identified where certain things were built. The aerial image actually
was not even a meter away from where they said
things were and this has gone back seventy years ago.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Uncle.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah. Well I went out there for the room for
the the Yeman Determination Native Total Determination and Marcia Langton's
also Yemen, and her daughter Ruby was there. So the
play people are on the property where the mission was talking.
Ruby and I out to have a look and there's
(03:43):
not much out there now, but you got you know,
as soon as you get there, you get that eerie
feeling that you sort of get me go and you
know you're belonging somewhere because that's my dad's side Yeman.
So but it was really interesting. I was there for
that determination and and the biggest mobile Blackfellows you know,
(04:06):
from all over central Queensland and further Afield were there.
And when the judge got up and said, I'm not
here to give you a native title. And everyone's face dropped,
you know it, and we were looking at each other
and he said, I can't give you something you've owned
for thousands of years. All I'm doing today is recognizing
your ownership and Australian law, which was really powerful. You know,
(04:30):
it's not not it's not something government can give us.
It's like sovereignty. You know, people say, oh, we want
government to give us sovereignty. If you're trying to do that,
you're looking up the wrong You're looking in the wrong direction.
We assert sovereignty. We don't wait for people to give
it to us. So I thought that it was a
really interesting comment by the by the but by the
(04:53):
justice reeves that that that determination and and and and
like all mobs across Australia, we have a pretty sad
history there. There was massacre out that way, there were
reprisals that went on for like forty years. If you
were obriginal in those areas, you just got shot back
(05:13):
in the day. So sad, sad places.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, well, that uncle in that book that I just saw,
brother Adam Bray, you probably come across Adam. He's a
Gungaloo man as well. Yeah, yeah, he actually gave me
this book. I ran into him randomly on the Gold
Coast for the was there for the Indigenous All Stars game,
and brother Walker towards me nine o'clock at night after
(05:37):
having dinner somewhere at Southport. He said where you stay
and I said here, Mareton And next minute in the
morning he came down and gave me this book about
to rum Mission and uncle.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I'd love to see it.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Oh, look, I've got a copy for you.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I went out and took a copy to any Little
straight away and all of the family names are in
that in that book. But yeah, what also was there
on this it's now it's cattle property, right, was a
whole lot of remains Skealita remains. So obviously that was
either a massacre site where all those bodies were either
(06:14):
dumped or buried, or that was the graveyard.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Either way, there.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Was There was a story from the Murray's from that
area who were telling stories that have been passed down
right yep, and it just matched up with exactly what
they were saying when the aerial imaging came over.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I'd believe that. I'd absolutely believe that because Adam
Adam was actually with Ruby and I that day. We
went to look at the property, the old mission. But
you never guess. We were sitting there and they were
cutting trees down. I said, what's going on? They said, well,
after nearly one hundred years, they've finally going to build
a dam out here. So you know, Queensland has this
(06:59):
history of moving Aboriginal people to build things and then
they don't do it. So the dam to room and
of course the big port they were going to build it.
Martpoune shifted all them people back in the nineteen sixties,
you know, and burned the place down and then never
(07:21):
built the port.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
It's all there, isn't an Uncle.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's still there. I was up there just before Christmas
at Marpoune. Sad place, you know when you feel the history,
but sad in one way, but also shows the resilience
of our more. You know, they're not given up. They're
sitting there. And if it's reminding the rest of Australia
what happened, good, because we need reminding.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
And when you talk about resilience, Uncle, you know, when
I it just brings me back to this current climate,
current situation that we're in today in this country, which
is this COVID nineteen and Uncle you being on the
board of Murray School. You know, in the history of
Murray School with our family, you know, Uncle Ross Watson,
(08:12):
my grandmother's brother, was the founder of the Murray School
and until recently, you know, dad was still chair of
the Murray School. And I'm a past student. I graduated
at the Murray School in nineteen ninety four. In year seven,
there was about eleven not even eleven kids, Uncle, there
(08:32):
might have been about six of us in grade seven
that graduated. And you know, for me, there's probably twenty
five kids in the school at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
So for me to.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Be a past student of the school and also be
on the board, it's an absolute honor that's been part
of our family's legacy and it's I guess I just
want to say to people that are listening to this
podcast that there's all these different directions that this yarn
can go into, but the first thing that I wanted
(09:05):
to mention is that we have reconnected in terms of
me and you reconnected because we're both on the board
of the Murray School. In light of what's going on today.
I just thought you'd be a perfect person to have
a yarn with.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well, well, we have a few connections. One is our mob,
Gungloo Mob. The second is that Murray School. But thirdlymen,
I'm remembering being interviewed by your dad lots of times
when I was when I was, you know, at the
Corportive Research Center for Abraaginal Health, and then I joined
(09:40):
the Human Rights Commission, So like your dad was one
of the great advocates and would get us on to
a whole range of people on these programs to you know,
to make sure how I'm all about. There were as
informed as they could be about what was happening. So
I think I think it's it's sort of that similar
tree we talked about, you know, and the family connections
(10:02):
and all that. You know, we all sort of joined
together and say it's a small world, but our worll
is different to that. We have these connections all through
our generations and this is just this is the latest
iteration you and I on the Murray's School board. I
know our student. It's just great.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
And here with COVID nineteen, you know black Card, the
business that I run with with my grandmother's sister, Annie
Lilla Watson, and the other elders involved, Annie Mary Graham
and uncle Charlie Watson. I've been kind of I guess
it's not been forced into a position of trying to
reinvent our services or reinvent our business. But to me,
(10:44):
starting this podcast was about doing exactly I guess what
Dad was doing. How do we engage with our mob
and how do we share stories of resilience and stories
that might be challenging but so inspiring. So for all
of the tough times at the moment that we're facing
(11:04):
and that we will continue to face for who knows
how long, how do we stay positive, how do we
get through these times? And how do we I guess,
inspire and lift each other so that we can get
through this together.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I'm so glad to see you doing this because it's original.
People have this oral history and we love telling stories,
and we get messages through stories. You know, before you know,
I know when I was growing up, listen to mom
and dad and my nan and grandfather talking and aunties
and uncles, and when I look back now, they weren't
(11:41):
just stories. They're actually telling you lessons, They're giving you
lessons through those stories. And I think the medium may
have changed. We're using twenty first century media like podcasts,
but the concept's exactly the same. It's getting the message
out talking to people. And I sort of agree with
(12:04):
this fellow from America. He wrote about business and he
challenged Darwin's theory of evolution and survival of the fittest
and the strongest and the smartest, and his view was
the people who are the most adaptable survive. And when
you look at our mob, we have adapted. Yeah, everyone
(12:25):
thought we were just going to die out, but we haven't.
Were the fastest growing cohort within the Australian community right now,
so we're adapting and we're just I'd love to see
how you're adapting this now to getting the message out
with lots of stories and the story of what we're
going through right now. We've never seen anything like this
(12:46):
in our time and we will survive this. We will adapt,
We'll get on. We will make sure the Murray School
operates as an outreach service. If they close schools down,
we'll keep connected with our students, will keep connected with
the stuff from or keep connected with our families. It'll
be just a different way of doing it.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Mm hmm, Well I wanted to say that, you know,
you and I have had many yarns, you know, offline
and during board meetings and whatever, but we've had many
yarns about how we could, how we could do more
in our community, how we can support our community, how
we can I guess partner with other service providers like
the medical Services and the Institute by Yui and people
(13:28):
like that.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
So in terms of this.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Current situation, uncle, we were having a yarn before and
you're talking about some of the young kids that are
in these boarding schools.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Can you share some of the story with life.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Well, there hasn't been in Queensland, at least closing down
our schools, but up North, I'm aware of boarding schools
with the majority of whom are Aberaginal toss rate onness
students and parents wanted them home straight away, which is understandable.
The Prime Minister made a sayment on Sunday night saying
(14:06):
we're not closing schools, but if parents are uncomfortable with
their kids being at school, take them home, look after them.
And I think that's what the mob up north wanted
to do. But you know, same with bureaucracy there, there
was problems getting their flights back and all that, but
again that's now back on track. So these things are
(14:27):
happening right now as we speak, and I understand, you
can understand how parents are worried about their kids right
in the middle of this pandemic, and they want them
home and and that's why it's going to happen, and
that's why we'll operate at the Morrow School.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I saw something come through from our principle this morning
and it was a PowerPoint, which is really deadly.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You know, it's great, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
The communication it's constant that we're getting these updates as
aboard right and what our deputies are doing. Can you
share some information about that.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Well, last week we had a meeting it looked like
there was a move to close the school down. I
talked to all the board members. We went there with
a view that and set it to all the staff
that our main concern was our students and our staff,
that they're they're they're Without those, we don't have school,
(15:23):
and we will we will make the decisions in the
best interests of both the students and the staff. But
we've got to make fully informed decisions about where we are,
and there was a bit of a move to close
the school, but we said, no, no, there's let's work
(15:45):
on this because there's risks of kids, our children being
at school, but there's also risks of them not being
at school, and we've got to manage those risks. And
I've got no doubt somewhere in the near future they
will close the schools. But when they do, the Murray's
is going to be in a better position than most.
(16:07):
We have some things that are really positive for us
to keep the connection going. For instance, ninety percent of
our kids are picked up by buses, so we've got
buses from the school visiting houses and homes twice a day,
pick up kids in the morning, drop them off in
the afternoon. So we used to connecting with houses and
(16:27):
households and homes and parents and carers. We know that
soon as that happens, we can reach out and let
our parents know and our cares know exactly what's happening
straight away. If we have to close the school, we'll
be able to get out there. We now had a
long conversation today with the Catholic Education Commission because with
(16:49):
their schools, they're in the same position as us. They'll
probably close shortly when the government makes a call, but
they're both of us are thinking about not actually closing
the school, but transitioning to it from a learning environment
at a school to a learning environment at home. And
how do we actually do that? And like you said,
(17:11):
our deputies have done a wonderful job getting packages together
that we can deliver. We're looking at maybe some sort
of it solutions, like if we have to dip into
our savings and buy make sure kids have got tablets
and if they don't have internet, pre load them with lessons.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I was just about to say that, sorry to cut
you off. I was just about to say, you know,
in terms of the digital divine with Aboriginal Antarishat Islander
communities and families, not every black fellow has a laptop
or a computer at home or a parent that has
access to devices and iPads and whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And then even before you mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
On the internetable exactly. So here we are in terms
of the Murray School. For people that are not familiar
with the Murray Schools location, it's in a case the
o Ridge in Brisbane here in Queensland, and it's one
of very few Aboriginal schools that that are run independently
in this country that are operated by community. You know,
(18:17):
there's a board that you know that runs this school.
So in terms of the school, and like you said,
dipping into savings to make sure that our kids have
access to technologies that they can keep on engaging with
their learning. This is this is new for us, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Oh, totally new and and we know we might have
to look around to get devices for our children and
our households. And if they don't, like I said, if
they don't have access to internet, we can pre load
lessons on tablets or laptops or whatever we end up with,
and then then there would have to be connection with
(18:55):
the teachers still save even though our view is that
even if the school closes to students, it doesn't shut
down altogether because we expect our teachers and the teachers
are absolutely up for this to keep the connection going
with our students and families. So it's just another of
those cases mandon Nara where I said we were the
(19:16):
most adaptable people. We will adapt to this, of.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Course, we will add and just talking about the education
and trying to set up this kind of outreach service
and making sure that the home environment is supported with
technology and devices. If Corporate Australia is listening to this podcast,
you know in terms of donating devices or some I
(19:42):
don't know what it is, but I'm just thinking for people.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Like Google that might be listening.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
You know that you know, Black can't engages with many
corporate clients that we roll out our training to. Is
there a message there for Corporate Australia to get involved
and to support our school, to support Aberaginal people and
communities in the Aboriginal business sector.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
What's your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Uncle, Well, look, I think this is a crisis like
we've never lived before. There's going to be just reading today,
there's going to be a million people unemployed. You look
at quite as dayly twenty thousand people. If we've closed
all sporting venues down, those people and a lot of
our my abusic casual work at those venues, that's no
(20:26):
longer possible. They're closing down hotels and cafes and restaurants.
If there's opportunities to do things a little bit differently
and you need extra sets of hands, think about the
Aboriginal Toyis Rate Onland Community Reach out to people like
(20:47):
the Murray School and the organizations in your area to
see what's going on, because we're certainly thinking about that
Monday and now are you. And I've had the discussion
of if in this outreach program we need extra extra people,
we're going to put them on because not only do
we outreach to our kids, but we actually provide employment
(21:09):
for someone. If we need extra people in the family
support unit that we run at the school because the
overwhelming need, we'll do that. So I think that's what
we've got to do. We've got to commit to not
only providing the services, but in providing the service, if
you need to employ someone, do it straight away. You're
(21:29):
giving people an opportunity not to. I went past Ipswich
yesterday and it was so sad to see this line
outside the Social services or whatever they sendle Link office.
You know, by the way, I think they could do
treat people a bit with a bit more dignity than
that they have a big line outside where everyone can
see them. That's not treating people with dignity. Having them
(21:53):
line up out on the street waiting to go into
the central Link office.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Scenes you might see and maybe in America.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Right yeah, yeah, it's it's shocking. I was taken back
really and I think, you know, people just we just
need to think a bit about the humanity of what
we're doing. But but if if, if you know, we're
we're in contact. I know b HP looking at devices
for kids in our situation. So we've made contact with
(22:21):
b h P about that. They're also looking at how
they actually can pull the other corporates together or the
corporates are coming together talk about how they can help
in in the remote areas as well, you know, so
so so you know, this is a chance for Australians
to stand up and look after those that are less
(22:44):
needy than than than you and and and if you know,
it can't be the dollar driving everything. This is this
is desperate times and we need desperate measures to make
sure we all get through this.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Of course, all.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right, so uncle, in terms of with Corp Australia, with government,
we're not for profit organizations and all the others in
between that have a reconciliation action plan. You know what
I say to people and what I am saying, and
this is a clear message now to the rest of Australia.
If you've got deliverables, then now's the time to deliver
(23:18):
on those. If you've got targets to achieve, then now's
the time to hit the targets and to reach the
targets instead of thinking, oh, okay, let's just see what
the next couple of weeks, the next couple of months
look like.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Manda naa, I think what we need to do and
get the message across and all of us, Blackfellow said
of the corporate world and the government world with things
like wraps, We're going to measure you how you deal
and deal with this in the hard times, not in
the good times. It's easy to do all the right
things when everything is nice and peachy. It's the reality
(23:55):
right now, and we will measure and we'll remember help
people deal with this crisis as a test of their
commitment to what they say they're going to do in
their wraps. So this is the time now to stand up.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And Uncle is saying that, you know, in terms of
building relations you know now it's critical.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right, absolutely critical.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Put these relationships into action, and hopefully we'll look back
from here and hopefully, you know, we will have strengthened
relationships with each other. You know, on an individual level,
on a business level, but also on a society level.
So on that note, I just want to say uncle,
you know it's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege
(24:40):
to yarn with you and to have you on my show,
and I look forward to seeing what we do over
the coming days. Even things are changing by the hour.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Right absolutely they're changing. But I think we as usual
will do the right thing. We'll live up to the
lead your dad and all your family what the vision
was for the Murray School and we'll lead the way
to Deadly Well.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Thank you very much, Uncle mecan in my father's language,
one and Molly, thank you till next time. And that
was Uncle meck Gooder, who was the former Aboriginal and
torrest Rate Islander Social Justice Commissioner of the Australian Human
Rights Commission from about two thousand and nine to twenty sixteen.
He was also the co Commissioner of the Royal Commissioner
(25:29):
with the Protection and Attention of Children in a Northern
Territory and also currently the chair of the Murray School
Board in Brisbane. And my next guest on Black Magic
Woman is Deadly Brother Leroy Wilkinson Martin, who's a dynamic
and innovative people and culture manager with a demonstrated history
of working in the nonprofit organization management industry and has
(25:52):
a deadly business called Dira dh Iara.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
That's all for now. I hope you can join me
next time. Black Magic form
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