February 11, 2025 • 31 mins
This episode of the Black Magic Woman Podcast is a little different—we’ve switched things up! Instead of me hosting, I’m in the guest seat while my sister Kate Russell takes over the mic to interview me.
We yarn about my journey—personally and professionally—from growing up in a family deeply connected to media and activism to creating the Black Magic Woman Podcast and building BlackCard, a business that has been helping organisations engage meaningfully with First Nations people and culture.
I also talk about the role Supply Nation has played in BlackCard’s growth, from those early days of hustling and cold calling to landing our first major contracts. I share the challenges and opportunities for Indigenous businesses, the importance of relationships in business, and how mob can make the most of networks like Supply Nation.
We also dive into lessons I’ve learned along the way, my experience working with major brands, and a recent moment where I helped guide Jamie Oliver through cultural accountability.
This is something I’ve never done before—sharing my own story in this way. So if you’ve ever wondered about the person behind the mic and how BlackCard became what it is today, this one’s for you. I hope you enjoy it!
Links & Resources:
BlackCard Official Website: https://www.theblackcard.com.au/
BlackCard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/theblackcard/
Supply Nation Official Website: https://supplynation.org.au/
📺 Jamie Oliver & Cultural Accountability
Exclusive Interview with Nerelda Jacobs on 10 News: https://10play.com.au/news (Search “Jamie Oliver First Nations interview”)
Website: www.blackmagicwoman.com.au
Follow us on Instagram - @blackmagicwomanpodcast
The Black Magic Woman Podcast is hosted by Mundanara Bayles and is an uplifting conversational style program featuring mainly Aboriginal guests and explores issues of importance to Aboriginal people and communities. Mundanara is guided by Aboriginal Terms of Reference and focusses more on who people are rather than on what they do.
If you enjoyed this episode, please ‘Subscribe’ on Apple Podcasts or ‘Follow’ on your Spotify app and tell your friends and family about us! If you’d like to contact us, please email, info@blackmagicwoman.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Black cast, Unite our voices. Black Magic Women Podcast acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land we have recorded this
episode on. We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land
where you, the listener or viewer, are tuning in from.
We would like to pay our respects to our elders
past and present and acknowledged that this always was Aboriginal
(00:25):
land and always will be Aboriginal Land. Welcome to the
Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandinara Baales. Hello all you
morbn Welcome to another episode of the one and only
Black Magic Women Podcast. I am going to do something different.
(00:49):
If you've been following my journey, it's only been about
four years this podcast journey. I've always had yarns with
people from all walks of lives, and not always First
Nations either, So don't think that this podcast is just
me talking to my own mob in my community, because
it's not. It started that way, and then I realized
that there was more people in my kind of network
(01:12):
and community that were doing pretty deadly things that I
thought everyone else needed to know about. And that's how
we opened up the kind of space for non mob
or non First Stations peoples. I also flipped it so
that the conversations were more personal than business. I always
(01:32):
kind of I don't know, it's I think it's the
thing with being a human being is we kind of
look for connecting with other humans and belonging, and sometimes
you feel like you don't really know people, especially in
the workplace. So in our culture, relationships are everything, and
investing in relationships are really important, and business usually takes
(01:56):
care of itself. So I've been having deadly yards with
deadly people and it's been going really good. Today's going
to be again something that we haven't done before. I'm
going to hand over now and I'm going to become
the guest on this episode. So I've got a sister,
Kate Russell, who's going to jump behind the microphone and
(02:20):
basically have a yarn with me. We did talk about this,
and this is while we're here to out. We talked
about it on a team's meeting and it was like,
why don't you talk to me about my journey because
most of the time I'm yearning with people about their journey,
and I might add some of my experiences in that
(02:41):
I feel, you know, I need to share in that moment,
but me just yearning about some of the things that
I've done or achieved, or my business journey whatever it
is podcast journey. There's not actually a yarn out there.
So Kate has agreed no pressure, agreed to, you know,
(03:01):
interview me, ask me some question. But it is something different.
But I'm really excited and I can't wait for you
use to hear this, so let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I mean, you're being very brave, and I think this
whole process police speaks to my need to be in
control more than anything else. So now you mentioned about
opening up Monda Narra. You have accomplished so much, both
personally and professionally, and consistently. You always seem to have
such good energy and passion. Is it easy to put
(03:34):
yourself out there and open up so consistently.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
At the start of my business journey, my aunt Lela
and my aunt Mayor and uncle Charlie said to me
that we're going to asks our participants to share their stories.
And I was like, Oh, how are they going to
do that? Oh, We're going to give them questions and
ask them who they are, where they come from, how
are their ancestors if they know do they know the
(03:59):
traditional owners, do they have children? And my my kind
of you know, when into government when I was seventeen,
done a lot in not for profit, non government child
support agency. I have never actually been in a professional
setting where people talk openly about themselves. So when Aunt
(04:20):
Lila said at the Black Car training, we're going to
get people to come and share their story. So the
first hour and a half and I'm like, people are
coming to the workshop to hear from us, not from
the other participants. So I'll be honest with you. Only
since doing Black Card, I was a participant for a
long time, and then I became a facilitator and obviously
(04:41):
now I'm the CEO. But it was my Aunt Lawy
that taught me that we need to consolidate what abersual
terms of references as blackfellows, and then to be conscious
of when we're being drawn over into white terms of reference.
So when I walk into spaces, I'm conscious of the
fact whether I'm operating on w terms or optional terms,
(05:05):
we're navigating the Aboriginal word of the Western world. So
it's easy to put myself out there in my own
community because you know, I'm part of the community. There's familiarity,
and I've grown up with these people or even from
in other communities. We just connect right as mob well
with non Aboriginal people that don't know me. It's not
(05:26):
that easy, all right. It looks easy now, but it
took me a long time to feel confident and comfortable
in my own skin and to be proud of my identity.
It took me a long time. So now I can
do it quite easily. But I've had a lot of
practice and a lot of guidance from my deadly elders.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I mean, that does surprise me a little bit because
I know you're a little bit about your story because
you've shared it with me, and also because you are
somewhat prolific in the black business space, and you come
across as so proud, as so confident, and so comfortable,
and you share so freely, coming from this big, beautiful, black,
well known family. I think it's going to make a
(06:09):
lot of people out there feel better about the doubts
that they have or about the challenges that they have.
Because if Mondonnaa Baales hasn't always been as confident, well
there's hope for the rest of us yet. But you
spoke about black Card and it's been so successful. Media
is an incredibly competitive field and there's so much to
choose from, So why choose to focus in on media?
(06:33):
And you were sharing before that, you know, you didn't
even like podcasts originally, you hated the sound of your
own voice. So what was the transition to diversify and
create Black Magic Woman.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Well, my grandmother started or founded Corey Radio back in
the seventies in Redfern. Her name was Marien Watson and
she was just amazing, you know, she just kind of
she got us as little as kids. She got us
to dream big and to think big and nothing was
(07:08):
ever unachievable like my grand just she was you know,
made us believe in ourselves and that was my early
foundations as a young Corey girl growing up in Redford
had a staunch grandmother and mum and dad, but my
grand was pretty deadly right media and radio. That my
dad went into radio. My grandmother's brother, the late uncle
(07:29):
Ross Watson, started Murray Country Triple A in Brisbane. It's
a big shout out to the mob there in westn
So I've been I've been brought up in media. I've
been in radio stations all of my life. Right, did
I ever think that I could switch into media and
(07:50):
do business, or do consulting and run two businesses. No,
but that's what Covid did. Covid had a lot of
people that were in business. I had a lot of
us stop and reflect. Some of us were able to
at our business models and some have never been able
to bounce back. I was really lucky that I had
(08:11):
media background. I used to be a radio trainer at
Triple A Training and I started three and FOURIGN Media,
So I had a skill set that I fell back
on during a time where my business made no money.
So when you think about it and how Black Fillows are,
we're doing everything. We're hustling. We are natural hustlers, we
(08:33):
natural born hustlers. So did I think Black Magic Women
would continue after Lockdown?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Did I think Black Magic Women could be on iHeartRadio? No?
And did I think I could launch a network now
to bring all of our mob along on this incredible journey. No.
So this was not my vision. I had no desire
to go into media after twenty years ago of being
in radio. No desire at all. And I still I
(09:05):
don't realize I still don't know the full I don't
realize the full potential of what we can do in
this space because there's not many of us out there
in media. There's a few black journalists, there's a few
black follows that are podcasting. That we're a minority within
a minority in the media landscape, and Australia it's pretty white.
(09:27):
So I'm quite proud that black follows for the first
time can see what's possible to actually participate in mainstream media.
That's what I'm really proud of. I'm really proud that
Black Magical Man has been able to kind of carve
a path for us to go. Hey, community radio awesome,
(09:51):
I've grown up in community radio, But how can we
mix it with the rest commercial radio and the revenue potential,
which is sustainability. If you want to be in business,
you need to look at you how can you make money.
It's not going to be a business where you can
you know, a podcast, you can't quit your job tomorrow.
(10:12):
There's not a lot of money to be made unless
you've got three million downloads a month. So yeah, I
think there's a lot of growth that needs to happen
for this media network to be financially viable. So my
black card business supports the growth of this side hustle.
(10:32):
So I've made it work and they complement each other
because if you've seen some of the partnerships on Black
Magic Women, they're actually my clients at the Black Cart
that have wanted and have, you know, maybe deliverables in
their ram. They've wanted to be better at engaging with
our mob. And here's a black podcast or a platform
(10:55):
now where mob are already listening, and we want more
people to listen than not mob as well. So we've
got an opportunity now to really kind of I don't know,
get into the houses and homes and minds of a
lot of Australians and let them see us for who
we actually are, not what they think we are. So
(11:17):
people are getting to know us and that's what I
love as well.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I think it's a very well integrated business model. But
looking around this room, seeing your branding, seeing you, seeing
all this tech, I'm not sure you can call this
a side hustle anymore. I think this might be at
the very least a co hustle. And recently you've had
an experience that, at least to me, seems like you've
been able to merge Black Card and Black Magic woman
(11:44):
and the skill sets even further, you were instrumental in
turning some negativity and frustration on a cultural experience and
a very bad reputational experience for a media personality into
a positive outcome. Are you able to tell us anything
about that?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Definitely. I've got to just give a little bit of
a shout out because there were a few other people
in the background making some noise. And you have every
right to call people out and hold people or organizations accountable.
And I'm that's what we do as black fathers, and
we hold each other accountable as well. So Sharon Davis,
(12:23):
Anita Heiss, Nerelda Jacobs, my sister, Sawan Hunter. There was
all these people online that I was watching while I
was in New Zealand on holiday in the beautiful land
of the long White Cloud, Old Tina. When I flew
back in the country, I got a phone call from
one of my clients. How's that? So I delivered training
(12:44):
to a lot of big pr and creative agencies in
Australia and globally, and one of those agencies look after
Jamie Oliver, and he rang me and he's like, Mondonara,
how was your holidays? I'm like I got back last night.
It was like, all right, look, I'm just going to
just tell you I need to support. You might not
(13:04):
be able to help me, but you might be able
to point me in the right direction. And basically it
was you know, Jamie has done a children's book and
it has some negative and not even true stereotypes of
First Nations people in his children's book. I said, okay,
well I haven't read the book, but I definitely know
who Jamie Oliver is. So that day, I'm not joking.
(13:28):
That day we had locked in a two hour black
card session for Jamie Oliver and his team the very
next morning, So eight am the next morning, I don't
know much about what's going on except for what's on
LinkedIn and social media. So I get on the cour
and there I am Hi Jamie, and my husband comes
over and my kids and it was pretty surreal done
(13:50):
this two hour session. And then I had an invitation
to come to Sydney to go to an awards that
was the following day, so I flew in a couple
of hours later, when I had dinner and a few
drinks with Jamie his and I really got to know
Jamie in like four hours it was only four hours
that I spent with him and his team and two
(14:11):
hours online, and in that moment I realized that our
culture and our approach, which is relational, he just needed
to do the training maybe six months before. So how
could we get Jamie Oliver to come and yarn with
Nealda and do a sit down interview where he could actually,
(14:35):
in his own words, tell the world what went wrong
and what happened because the media release and pulling the
books from eighty six countries around the world didn't really
give the mob what they wanted. They wanted him to
be more accountable and they wanted to hear from him
whilst he was in our country, so that was what
(14:57):
was important. So doing some pr work, but really importantly
it was me building a relationship and me being guided
by abasinal terms and using our approaches that Jamie and
his team then felt comfortable to do an interview with Nerelda,
an exclusive on Channel ten, and I loved Norelda's approach
because she's an abishal woman. Our culture is not about
(15:21):
humiliating people and making people feel no good. Everybody at
some stage is going to, you know, do the wrong thing,
make the wrong decisions, kiss people off, but we can
always go back and kind of, you know, learn from
some of those mistakes. So I was really pleased to
see this all fold out. First, I was like, I
(15:43):
don't know if I could put black Card's name. I
don't want to tell anyone my sisters that are out
there calling him out publicly, are they now going to
think any less of me? I went through a lot
of thinking and reflecting and yarns with my aunt Lalla
on whether or not we want to talk about this publicly,
because not every client you work with is out there
(16:05):
on LinkedIn. Oh, and now we don't really tell everyone
what we do. So that experience and for people all
around the world to hear first about Jamie's views and
background of that book, but they actually got to see
a deadly Aboriginal woman, a journalist handle that interview with
(16:26):
so much respect and care and it was so genuine
that and I told Nerelda this, My respect for her
was a lot of us are inspired by people like
Norelda that's out there thirty years in journalism and stuff right,
pretty deadly. I don't think I could do that. But
(16:46):
how we handled that situation as a collective. Our old
people would be really happy with us, but we've got
to kind of we've got to show the rest of
the world that there's another way to deal with conflict.
There's another way, you know, you don't have to to
make somebody just keep on bashing him over the head
(17:07):
for doing the wrong thing. So we've got another Ally,
we've got somebody who shone a light on First Nations
people and history, someone with a big following like him
put a spotlight on this country, and we're going to
take advantage of that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Well said, and I completely agree with your approach. I
think if we can treat each other with kindness and
respect and understanding and seek to understand how did this happen,
where is he coming from, everyone is going to be
much more receptive to the learnings that the oldest continuing
culture has to share with them. And speaking of Norelda,
(17:46):
she's a deadly woman, so much respect for her, and
she does have so much to share. But so do
you. You've been in business for a while now, so if
I put back on my supply nation hat, what are
some of the suggestions that you might have for how
indigenous owned businesses can make the most of Supply Nation
and conversely, what can corporate, government and other organizations do
(18:08):
to support the sector.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
For our MOB. I'll be honest with this. When we
started with the Supply Nation, we didn't even have the
fifty thousand dollars in the bank yet. That's how new
our business was. And we had a MoU from QT
saying we've got fifty thousand dollars of work. The contract
has been drawn up, but this is what black Card
is going to do, and this is what q QT
(18:36):
is going to do. I took that as part of
my application process. That's how bad we wanted to get
this get We wanted to be part of a community,
and we needed to be part of a network and
we needed support and there was nothing at the time,
to be honest with you, I looked around and there
was nothing that I could join and be part of
(18:57):
that was going to elevate us and really get us
out there into mainstream societies. So we got that MoU.
We just got approval. Oh, we've never done this before,
you haven't got the money in the bank yet, but
they got that and they accepted it. So that was
I was really appreciative that they kind of, you know,
It wasn't that they changed. They went outside the box.
(19:21):
And if they didn't, right, if they didn't, we wouldn't
have got our first contract with Common Moth Bank because
when we did get a knock on the door from Combank,
because I reached out to come off bank on the phone.
When we became part of Supply Nation, I utilized the
database and I ran people, and I introduced myself and Blackheart,
(19:42):
and that's how relationships and businesses and contracts started to
come to fruition. There was no kind of you know,
just go to an e vent and things are going
to happen. It was it was hustling. Get on the phone,
do some cold calling, introduce yourself and see if I
can get a meeting with people. So the fact that
I had no business skills, no business background or acumen.
(20:05):
I hadn't been a university, and I had no desire
to be in business, I started an organization for my elders.
They're in their seventies and they just wanted somebody younger
with energy. That's what will tell you, oh, you had
a lot of energy. I'm like, that's the person that's
going to help us run this business. So I was
their CEO on Senlink, and I was still breastfeeding my babies,
(20:28):
working part time at the Institute for Indigenous Health Deadly Choices,
and I was studying nutritional medicine because I thought I
was going to be a doctor. So I had no
desire to be in business, and I did not think
i'd be here eleven years later. But all of the
you know, the skills that we've learned, and the values
within our culture and how we connect and engage and
(20:52):
how we navigate our own community and then navigating the
white follow world. I didn't realize I had all these skills.
So to go into business without the business background, we
kind of, you know, we did some pretty deadly things
without having a business plan, without having any money in
the bank, without having any support or any mentals to say, oh,
(21:17):
you should do this or you should think about that.
I built our first website. Now this is black Fellows
just being resourceful and trying to do what you can
with what you've got. So I built our first website.
I try to do all the social media. I was
a receptionist. I don't all the admin, and I even
(21:37):
did all of the accounting. I was startying on a
Saturday at the Institute for Accounting in Stone's Corner or
Mountcravad and Brisbane on a Saturday, I was doing search
for an accounting so I really was trying to do
every part of the business on my own because we
had no money. So look, you know, for black fellows
that are either struggling or not even struggling, but you're
(22:00):
doing all right, I want you to think about what
about the rest of the community. Are there people around
you that now you can share or they can leverage
off your relationships? Who can you introduce them to? And
that's probably been one of the things that I talk
to corporates about is when you invest in me, I'm
investing into my whole community. And I'll show you that
(22:24):
how I churn up every day, how I amplify voices,
whether it's people on my podcast or what I choose
to share on my LinkedIn and try and kind of
share other people's successes and stuff. So for our mob
to get into business to even be supply Nation certified,
there is a lot of work that you need to
(22:45):
do that You've got to do the groundwork. It's not
going to be easy. It took us only two years
to get our first contract with combat two years and
I was going on to the connect you know, but
you know, we're doing everything that we could possibly do.
But things weren't just happening overnight. It took time. And
and Anila always said to me, if we just build relationships,
(23:09):
we don't have to sell anyone anything. Now, when you
walk into a room and whether you're Aboriginal or non aboriginal,
start your meeting with your introduction. That's more personal. See
what you have in common with each other, build that relationship,
and then talk about the business. And I think that's
why Black Card has become more successful in terms of
(23:33):
we don't we don't often put in I don't even
know what they're called. When you need a procure, it's
like a tender, a tender. I don't even know what
they're called because I don't do it. It's not part
of our standard business. So that's a good place to
be in. So if we're not competing for business, then
how have I gotten to this point? And I share
everything with everyone. Anyone that rings me in ass me,
(23:56):
how do you do this? What do you do? Can
you introduce me? I'm like, fair enough, let's go getting
on a black card workshop for our own mob and
seeing how I deliver bank Do you want to learn
how to use zoom? Do you want me to help
you how to be more interactive, more engaging with utilizing teams.
I do as much as I can with the time
that I have to try and give back to our mob,
(24:19):
and I try and connect with as many corporates that
I've delivered training to so that they could pick up
the phone and say, hey, mandanare can we have yarn?
And that's because I've taken the time to build a relationship.
So don't always think the money is going to come.
Don't always think that things are just going to appear.
Because you're working really hard. You'll really appreciate when some
(24:45):
of those projects or conversations do turn into a business opportunity,
But don't get disappointed if it doesn't happen. You know
how they say when you're going for a job, when
ten doors close, one will open. That's very similar in business.
Network network network builds your relationships and be amongst people
(25:06):
that are doing the same thing because they're the people
that are going to support you, especially when you're starting
to feel like this isn't for you.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Very wise words and I think it's important that you've
pointed out the importance of relationships because we have been
doing business in one way, shape or form for sixty
thousand years. It is a superior way of doing business
in my mind. To talk to people, build the relationship,
build the trust, have a yarn.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, you've got to make time for it, though, and
people don't have time. So don't feel especially for our mom,
don't feel like you can't stop a meeting, and just say,
in our culture, you know, human relationships come first. And
I just feel more comfortable if we started it a
little different. Can I just share a little bit about
(25:54):
myself and I'll hand over to you. Our culture, I
think is much more superior our knowledge. Our governance system,
I feel is a lot more superior than Western governance
and knowledge because it's all about conflict and who's in power.
We're black, follows a very different society, very different way
(26:16):
of doing business. So don't see each other as competitors.
And this is a message to every black fellow in business,
and if you're a deadly black woman in business as well,
don't see other women as competitors. We need to work
together because it's part of our culture, how we collaborate,
and how we come together in terms of the collective.
(26:36):
So use our knowledge and our approach even in business,
and you'll be much more I'm telling you now, not
just successful. You're going to feel like you're doing things
the right way. When we follow our way and our
culture and our values and our principles. Yeah, you feel
(26:57):
good about what you're doing and how you're doing things.
We try and navigate the white fellow world and you're
operating on white terms, you start to feel a little
bit either uncomfortable or not as confident. That's a reminder, right,
go back to our way and we get better outcomes.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I feel like we've just had a little insight into
some of the Black Card training as well.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Literally, the Black Card training is the Elders, right, it's
their university courses that they developed at the University of
Queensland and taught over three entire semesters to undergrad and
post grade students. That knowledge forms the foundations of our training.
So it's a university level education. It's strength based. It
(27:41):
talks about our knowledge that comes from this land and
that's what we should be operating from, especially as blackfellows.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It's something to fill everyone with pride to be the
beneficiary of this knowledge of our elders and how you're
doing such important work passing that on not only to
the next generation but to non average in Australia through
the work that you do and your generosity in sharing that.
And now that you've just said that people can call you.
I mean, I'm worried for you, and I'm worried for
(28:12):
the phone calls that you're going.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
To Laylor, get ready, get ready for the phone. Yeah, well,
LinkedIn LinkedIn. If you're not on LinkedIn, then you know,
reach out to me. I'll help you with your profile
because LinkedIn is so important, so important to have a
good LinkedIn profile. And I spent money with a LinkedIn expert.
(28:35):
There's twenty five in the world right that you can
go to and they tell you everything about LinkedIn and
they're not cheap. But it was the best couple of
grand that I spent on investing in my LinkedIn profile
and training and understanding hashtags on LinkedIn. The first three
hashtags are picked up in whatever it's called the algorithm.
(28:56):
The algorithm right first three hashtags. If you go hashtag indigenous,
there's about one hundred followers. So if you go hashtag education,
there's nine million followers. Hashtag leadership, twenty million followers. Hashtag business,
hashtag women not hashtag indigenous, hashtag truth telling, hashtag culture.
(29:18):
Forget those hashtags on LinkedIn. It's not going to get
your post in people's feeds, So little things like that,
I get quite passionate about LinkedIn, So hit me up,
connect and stay in touch.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Well, thank you so much Mondaar for letting me be
in the driver's seat. I've been very privileged to know
you before this interview and get to hear some of
your story. But I think it's good that we've got
to turn the tables and you got to share your experiences,
your knowledge, and your wisdom with your audience who get
to see a different side of you for a change.
So thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Well, thank you Kate for taking up the opportunity. I
didn't know how it was going to go. But Kate,
have you done media before?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Well, bless and natural, just jump straight in. Well, this
is our way we are. I said beforehand, like this
is going to be easy. We're possible.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
You don't overthink it just because there's microphones and lights
and you, yes, you need a Deadly producer as well.
That's how the magic happens at black Magic Commen. So
thank you Kate for just being being open to a
different It's not even opportunity, it's being open to coming
and doing doing it differently. So thank you. Pleasure love it.
(30:36):
If you'd like any more info on today's guest, please
visit our show notes in the episode description. A big
shout out to all you Deadly Mob and allies who
continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your feedback
means the world. You can rate and review the podcast
on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our socials
(30:57):
and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd love
to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman podcast is
produced by Clint Curtis
Speaker 2 (31:14):
HM
Black cast, Unite our voices. Black Magic Women Podcast acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land we have recorded this
episode on. We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land
where you, the listener or viewer, are tuning in from.
We would like to pay our respects to our elders
past and present and acknowledged that this always was Aboriginal
(00:25):
land and always will be Aboriginal Land. Welcome to the
Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandinara Baales. Hello all you
morbn Welcome to another episode of the one and only
Black Magic Women Podcast. I am going to do something different.
(00:49):
If you've been following my journey, it's only been about
four years this podcast journey. I've always had yarns with
people from all walks of lives, and not always First
Nations either, So don't think that this podcast is just
me talking to my own mob in my community, because
it's not. It started that way, and then I realized
that there was more people in my kind of network
(01:12):
and community that were doing pretty deadly things that I
thought everyone else needed to know about. And that's how
we opened up the kind of space for non mob
or non First Stations peoples. I also flipped it so
that the conversations were more personal than business. I always
(01:32):
kind of I don't know, it's I think it's the
thing with being a human being is we kind of
look for connecting with other humans and belonging, and sometimes
you feel like you don't really know people, especially in
the workplace. So in our culture, relationships are everything, and
investing in relationships are really important, and business usually takes
(01:56):
care of itself. So I've been having deadly yards with
deadly people and it's been going really good. Today's going
to be again something that we haven't done before. I'm
going to hand over now and I'm going to become
the guest on this episode. So I've got a sister,
Kate Russell, who's going to jump behind the microphone and
(02:20):
basically have a yarn with me. We did talk about this,
and this is while we're here to out. We talked
about it on a team's meeting and it was like,
why don't you talk to me about my journey because
most of the time I'm yearning with people about their journey,
and I might add some of my experiences in that
(02:41):
I feel, you know, I need to share in that moment,
but me just yearning about some of the things that
I've done or achieved, or my business journey whatever it
is podcast journey. There's not actually a yarn out there.
So Kate has agreed no pressure, agreed to, you know,
(03:01):
interview me, ask me some question. But it is something different.
But I'm really excited and I can't wait for you
use to hear this, so let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I mean, you're being very brave, and I think this
whole process police speaks to my need to be in
control more than anything else. So now you mentioned about
opening up Monda Narra. You have accomplished so much, both
personally and professionally, and consistently. You always seem to have
such good energy and passion. Is it easy to put
(03:34):
yourself out there and open up so consistently.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
At the start of my business journey, my aunt Lela
and my aunt Mayor and uncle Charlie said to me
that we're going to asks our participants to share their stories.
And I was like, Oh, how are they going to
do that? Oh, We're going to give them questions and
ask them who they are, where they come from, how
are their ancestors if they know do they know the
(03:59):
traditional owners, do they have children? And my my kind
of you know, when into government when I was seventeen,
done a lot in not for profit, non government child
support agency. I have never actually been in a professional
setting where people talk openly about themselves. So when Aunt
(04:20):
Lila said at the Black Car training, we're going to
get people to come and share their story. So the
first hour and a half and I'm like, people are
coming to the workshop to hear from us, not from
the other participants. So I'll be honest with you. Only
since doing Black Card, I was a participant for a
long time, and then I became a facilitator and obviously
(04:41):
now I'm the CEO. But it was my Aunt Lawy
that taught me that we need to consolidate what abersual
terms of references as blackfellows, and then to be conscious
of when we're being drawn over into white terms of reference.
So when I walk into spaces, I'm conscious of the
fact whether I'm operating on w terms or optional terms,
(05:05):
we're navigating the Aboriginal word of the Western world. So
it's easy to put myself out there in my own
community because you know, I'm part of the community. There's familiarity,
and I've grown up with these people or even from
in other communities. We just connect right as mob well
with non Aboriginal people that don't know me. It's not
(05:26):
that easy, all right. It looks easy now, but it
took me a long time to feel confident and comfortable
in my own skin and to be proud of my identity.
It took me a long time. So now I can
do it quite easily. But I've had a lot of
practice and a lot of guidance from my deadly elders.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I mean, that does surprise me a little bit because
I know you're a little bit about your story because
you've shared it with me, and also because you are
somewhat prolific in the black business space, and you come
across as so proud, as so confident, and so comfortable,
and you share so freely, coming from this big, beautiful, black,
well known family. I think it's going to make a
(06:09):
lot of people out there feel better about the doubts
that they have or about the challenges that they have.
Because if Mondonnaa Baales hasn't always been as confident, well
there's hope for the rest of us yet. But you
spoke about black Card and it's been so successful. Media
is an incredibly competitive field and there's so much to
choose from, So why choose to focus in on media?
(06:33):
And you were sharing before that, you know, you didn't
even like podcasts originally, you hated the sound of your
own voice. So what was the transition to diversify and
create Black Magic Woman.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Well, my grandmother started or founded Corey Radio back in
the seventies in Redfern. Her name was Marien Watson and
she was just amazing, you know, she just kind of
she got us as little as kids. She got us
to dream big and to think big and nothing was
(07:08):
ever unachievable like my grand just she was you know,
made us believe in ourselves and that was my early
foundations as a young Corey girl growing up in Redford
had a staunch grandmother and mum and dad, but my
grand was pretty deadly right media and radio. That my
dad went into radio. My grandmother's brother, the late uncle
(07:29):
Ross Watson, started Murray Country Triple A in Brisbane. It's
a big shout out to the mob there in westn
So I've been I've been brought up in media. I've
been in radio stations all of my life. Right, did
I ever think that I could switch into media and
(07:50):
do business, or do consulting and run two businesses. No,
but that's what Covid did. Covid had a lot of
people that were in business. I had a lot of
us stop and reflect. Some of us were able to
at our business models and some have never been able
to bounce back. I was really lucky that I had
(08:11):
media background. I used to be a radio trainer at
Triple A Training and I started three and FOURIGN Media,
So I had a skill set that I fell back
on during a time where my business made no money.
So when you think about it and how Black Fillows are,
we're doing everything. We're hustling. We are natural hustlers, we
(08:33):
natural born hustlers. So did I think Black Magic Women
would continue after Lockdown?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Did I think Black Magic Women could be on iHeartRadio? No?
And did I think I could launch a network now
to bring all of our mob along on this incredible journey. No.
So this was not my vision. I had no desire
to go into media after twenty years ago of being
in radio. No desire at all. And I still I
(09:05):
don't realize I still don't know the full I don't
realize the full potential of what we can do in
this space because there's not many of us out there
in media. There's a few black journalists, there's a few
black follows that are podcasting. That we're a minority within
a minority in the media landscape, and Australia it's pretty white.
(09:27):
So I'm quite proud that black follows for the first
time can see what's possible to actually participate in mainstream media.
That's what I'm really proud of. I'm really proud that
Black Magical Man has been able to kind of carve
a path for us to go. Hey, community radio awesome,
(09:51):
I've grown up in community radio, But how can we
mix it with the rest commercial radio and the revenue potential,
which is sustainability. If you want to be in business,
you need to look at you how can you make money.
It's not going to be a business where you can
you know, a podcast, you can't quit your job tomorrow.
(10:12):
There's not a lot of money to be made unless
you've got three million downloads a month. So yeah, I
think there's a lot of growth that needs to happen
for this media network to be financially viable. So my
black card business supports the growth of this side hustle.
(10:32):
So I've made it work and they complement each other
because if you've seen some of the partnerships on Black
Magic Women, they're actually my clients at the Black Cart
that have wanted and have, you know, maybe deliverables in
their ram. They've wanted to be better at engaging with
our mob. And here's a black podcast or a platform
(10:55):
now where mob are already listening, and we want more
people to listen than not mob as well. So we've
got an opportunity now to really kind of I don't know,
get into the houses and homes and minds of a
lot of Australians and let them see us for who
we actually are, not what they think we are. So
(11:17):
people are getting to know us and that's what I
love as well.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I think it's a very well integrated business model. But
looking around this room, seeing your branding, seeing you, seeing
all this tech, I'm not sure you can call this
a side hustle anymore. I think this might be at
the very least a co hustle. And recently you've had
an experience that, at least to me, seems like you've
been able to merge Black Card and Black Magic woman
(11:44):
and the skill sets even further, you were instrumental in
turning some negativity and frustration on a cultural experience and
a very bad reputational experience for a media personality into
a positive outcome. Are you able to tell us anything
about that?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Definitely. I've got to just give a little bit of
a shout out because there were a few other people
in the background making some noise. And you have every
right to call people out and hold people or organizations accountable.
And I'm that's what we do as black fathers, and
we hold each other accountable as well. So Sharon Davis,
(12:23):
Anita Heiss, Nerelda Jacobs, my sister, Sawan Hunter. There was
all these people online that I was watching while I
was in New Zealand on holiday in the beautiful land
of the long White Cloud, Old Tina. When I flew
back in the country, I got a phone call from
one of my clients. How's that? So I delivered training
(12:44):
to a lot of big pr and creative agencies in
Australia and globally, and one of those agencies look after
Jamie Oliver, and he rang me and he's like, Mondonara,
how was your holidays? I'm like I got back last night.
It was like, all right, look, I'm just going to
just tell you I need to support. You might not
(13:04):
be able to help me, but you might be able
to point me in the right direction. And basically it
was you know, Jamie has done a children's book and
it has some negative and not even true stereotypes of
First Nations people in his children's book. I said, okay,
well I haven't read the book, but I definitely know
who Jamie Oliver is. So that day, I'm not joking.
(13:28):
That day we had locked in a two hour black
card session for Jamie Oliver and his team the very
next morning, So eight am the next morning, I don't
know much about what's going on except for what's on
LinkedIn and social media. So I get on the cour
and there I am Hi Jamie, and my husband comes
over and my kids and it was pretty surreal done
(13:50):
this two hour session. And then I had an invitation
to come to Sydney to go to an awards that
was the following day, so I flew in a couple
of hours later, when I had dinner and a few
drinks with Jamie his and I really got to know
Jamie in like four hours it was only four hours
that I spent with him and his team and two
(14:11):
hours online, and in that moment I realized that our
culture and our approach, which is relational, he just needed
to do the training maybe six months before. So how
could we get Jamie Oliver to come and yarn with
Nealda and do a sit down interview where he could actually,
(14:35):
in his own words, tell the world what went wrong
and what happened because the media release and pulling the
books from eighty six countries around the world didn't really
give the mob what they wanted. They wanted him to
be more accountable and they wanted to hear from him
whilst he was in our country, so that was what
(14:57):
was important. So doing some pr work, but really importantly
it was me building a relationship and me being guided
by abasinal terms and using our approaches that Jamie and
his team then felt comfortable to do an interview with Nerelda,
an exclusive on Channel ten, and I loved Norelda's approach
because she's an abishal woman. Our culture is not about
(15:21):
humiliating people and making people feel no good. Everybody at
some stage is going to, you know, do the wrong thing,
make the wrong decisions, kiss people off, but we can
always go back and kind of, you know, learn from
some of those mistakes. So I was really pleased to
see this all fold out. First, I was like, I
(15:43):
don't know if I could put black Card's name. I
don't want to tell anyone my sisters that are out
there calling him out publicly, are they now going to
think any less of me? I went through a lot
of thinking and reflecting and yarns with my aunt Lalla
on whether or not we want to talk about this publicly,
because not every client you work with is out there
(16:05):
on LinkedIn. Oh, and now we don't really tell everyone
what we do. So that experience and for people all
around the world to hear first about Jamie's views and
background of that book, but they actually got to see
a deadly Aboriginal woman, a journalist handle that interview with
(16:26):
so much respect and care and it was so genuine
that and I told Nerelda this, My respect for her
was a lot of us are inspired by people like
Norelda that's out there thirty years in journalism and stuff right,
pretty deadly. I don't think I could do that. But
(16:46):
how we handled that situation as a collective. Our old
people would be really happy with us, but we've got
to kind of we've got to show the rest of
the world that there's another way to deal with conflict.
There's another way, you know, you don't have to to
make somebody just keep on bashing him over the head
(17:07):
for doing the wrong thing. So we've got another Ally,
we've got somebody who shone a light on First Nations
people and history, someone with a big following like him
put a spotlight on this country, and we're going to
take advantage of that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Well said, and I completely agree with your approach. I
think if we can treat each other with kindness and
respect and understanding and seek to understand how did this happen,
where is he coming from, everyone is going to be
much more receptive to the learnings that the oldest continuing
culture has to share with them. And speaking of Norelda,
(17:46):
she's a deadly woman, so much respect for her, and
she does have so much to share. But so do
you. You've been in business for a while now, so if
I put back on my supply nation hat, what are
some of the suggestions that you might have for how
indigenous owned businesses can make the most of Supply Nation
and conversely, what can corporate, government and other organizations do
(18:08):
to support the sector.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
For our MOB. I'll be honest with this. When we
started with the Supply Nation, we didn't even have the
fifty thousand dollars in the bank yet. That's how new
our business was. And we had a MoU from QT
saying we've got fifty thousand dollars of work. The contract
has been drawn up, but this is what black Card
is going to do, and this is what q QT
(18:36):
is going to do. I took that as part of
my application process. That's how bad we wanted to get
this get We wanted to be part of a community,
and we needed to be part of a network and
we needed support and there was nothing at the time,
to be honest with you, I looked around and there
was nothing that I could join and be part of
(18:57):
that was going to elevate us and really get us
out there into mainstream societies. So we got that MoU.
We just got approval. Oh, we've never done this before,
you haven't got the money in the bank yet, but
they got that and they accepted it. So that was
I was really appreciative that they kind of, you know,
It wasn't that they changed. They went outside the box.
(19:21):
And if they didn't, right, if they didn't, we wouldn't
have got our first contract with Common Moth Bank because
when we did get a knock on the door from Combank,
because I reached out to come off bank on the phone.
When we became part of Supply Nation, I utilized the
database and I ran people, and I introduced myself and Blackheart,
(19:42):
and that's how relationships and businesses and contracts started to
come to fruition. There was no kind of you know,
just go to an e vent and things are going
to happen. It was it was hustling. Get on the phone,
do some cold calling, introduce yourself and see if I
can get a meeting with people. So the fact that
I had no business skills, no business background or acumen.
(20:05):
I hadn't been a university, and I had no desire
to be in business, I started an organization for my elders.
They're in their seventies and they just wanted somebody younger
with energy. That's what will tell you, oh, you had
a lot of energy. I'm like, that's the person that's
going to help us run this business. So I was
their CEO on Senlink, and I was still breastfeeding my babies,
(20:28):
working part time at the Institute for Indigenous Health Deadly Choices,
and I was studying nutritional medicine because I thought I
was going to be a doctor. So I had no
desire to be in business, and I did not think
i'd be here eleven years later. But all of the
you know, the skills that we've learned, and the values
within our culture and how we connect and engage and
(20:52):
how we navigate our own community and then navigating the
white follow world. I didn't realize I had all these skills.
So to go into business without the business background, we
kind of, you know, we did some pretty deadly things
without having a business plan, without having any money in
the bank, without having any support or any mentals to say, oh,
(21:17):
you should do this or you should think about that.
I built our first website. Now this is black Fellows
just being resourceful and trying to do what you can
with what you've got. So I built our first website.
I try to do all the social media. I was
a receptionist. I don't all the admin, and I even
(21:37):
did all of the accounting. I was startying on a
Saturday at the Institute for Accounting in Stone's Corner or
Mountcravad and Brisbane on a Saturday, I was doing search
for an accounting so I really was trying to do
every part of the business on my own because we
had no money. So look, you know, for black fellows
that are either struggling or not even struggling, but you're
(22:00):
doing all right, I want you to think about what
about the rest of the community. Are there people around
you that now you can share or they can leverage
off your relationships? Who can you introduce them to? And
that's probably been one of the things that I talk
to corporates about is when you invest in me, I'm
investing into my whole community. And I'll show you that
(22:24):
how I churn up every day, how I amplify voices,
whether it's people on my podcast or what I choose
to share on my LinkedIn and try and kind of
share other people's successes and stuff. So for our mob
to get into business to even be supply Nation certified,
there is a lot of work that you need to
(22:45):
do that You've got to do the groundwork. It's not
going to be easy. It took us only two years
to get our first contract with combat two years and
I was going on to the connect you know, but
you know, we're doing everything that we could possibly do.
But things weren't just happening overnight. It took time. And
and Anila always said to me, if we just build relationships,
(23:09):
we don't have to sell anyone anything. Now, when you
walk into a room and whether you're Aboriginal or non aboriginal,
start your meeting with your introduction. That's more personal. See
what you have in common with each other, build that relationship,
and then talk about the business. And I think that's
why Black Card has become more successful in terms of
(23:33):
we don't we don't often put in I don't even
know what they're called. When you need a procure, it's
like a tender, a tender. I don't even know what
they're called because I don't do it. It's not part
of our standard business. So that's a good place to
be in. So if we're not competing for business, then
how have I gotten to this point? And I share
everything with everyone. Anyone that rings me in ass me,
(23:56):
how do you do this? What do you do? Can
you introduce me? I'm like, fair enough, let's go getting
on a black card workshop for our own mob and
seeing how I deliver bank Do you want to learn
how to use zoom? Do you want me to help
you how to be more interactive, more engaging with utilizing teams.
I do as much as I can with the time
that I have to try and give back to our mob,
(24:19):
and I try and connect with as many corporates that
I've delivered training to so that they could pick up
the phone and say, hey, mandanare can we have yarn?
And that's because I've taken the time to build a relationship.
So don't always think the money is going to come.
Don't always think that things are just going to appear.
Because you're working really hard. You'll really appreciate when some
(24:45):
of those projects or conversations do turn into a business opportunity,
But don't get disappointed if it doesn't happen. You know
how they say when you're going for a job, when
ten doors close, one will open. That's very similar in business.
Network network network builds your relationships and be amongst people
(25:06):
that are doing the same thing because they're the people
that are going to support you, especially when you're starting
to feel like this isn't for you.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Very wise words and I think it's important that you've
pointed out the importance of relationships because we have been
doing business in one way, shape or form for sixty
thousand years. It is a superior way of doing business
in my mind. To talk to people, build the relationship,
build the trust, have a yarn.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, you've got to make time for it, though, and
people don't have time. So don't feel especially for our mom,
don't feel like you can't stop a meeting, and just say,
in our culture, you know, human relationships come first. And
I just feel more comfortable if we started it a
little different. Can I just share a little bit about
(25:54):
myself and I'll hand over to you. Our culture, I
think is much more superior our knowledge. Our governance system,
I feel is a lot more superior than Western governance
and knowledge because it's all about conflict and who's in power.
We're black, follows a very different society, very different way
(26:16):
of doing business. So don't see each other as competitors.
And this is a message to every black fellow in business,
and if you're a deadly black woman in business as well,
don't see other women as competitors. We need to work
together because it's part of our culture, how we collaborate,
and how we come together in terms of the collective.
(26:36):
So use our knowledge and our approach even in business,
and you'll be much more I'm telling you now, not
just successful. You're going to feel like you're doing things
the right way. When we follow our way and our
culture and our values and our principles. Yeah, you feel
(26:57):
good about what you're doing and how you're doing things.
We try and navigate the white fellow world and you're
operating on white terms, you start to feel a little
bit either uncomfortable or not as confident. That's a reminder, right,
go back to our way and we get better outcomes.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I feel like we've just had a little insight into
some of the Black Card training as well.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Literally, the Black Card training is the Elders, right, it's
their university courses that they developed at the University of
Queensland and taught over three entire semesters to undergrad and
post grade students. That knowledge forms the foundations of our training.
So it's a university level education. It's strength based. It
(27:41):
talks about our knowledge that comes from this land and
that's what we should be operating from, especially as blackfellows.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It's something to fill everyone with pride to be the
beneficiary of this knowledge of our elders and how you're
doing such important work passing that on not only to
the next generation but to non average in Australia through
the work that you do and your generosity in sharing that.
And now that you've just said that people can call you.
I mean, I'm worried for you, and I'm worried for
(28:12):
the phone calls that you're going.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
To Laylor, get ready, get ready for the phone. Yeah, well,
LinkedIn LinkedIn. If you're not on LinkedIn, then you know,
reach out to me. I'll help you with your profile
because LinkedIn is so important, so important to have a
good LinkedIn profile. And I spent money with a LinkedIn expert.
(28:35):
There's twenty five in the world right that you can
go to and they tell you everything about LinkedIn and
they're not cheap. But it was the best couple of
grand that I spent on investing in my LinkedIn profile
and training and understanding hashtags on LinkedIn. The first three
hashtags are picked up in whatever it's called the algorithm.
(28:56):
The algorithm right first three hashtags. If you go hashtag indigenous,
there's about one hundred followers. So if you go hashtag education,
there's nine million followers. Hashtag leadership, twenty million followers. Hashtag business,
hashtag women not hashtag indigenous, hashtag truth telling, hashtag culture.
(29:18):
Forget those hashtags on LinkedIn. It's not going to get
your post in people's feeds, So little things like that,
I get quite passionate about LinkedIn, So hit me up,
connect and stay in touch.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Well, thank you so much Mondaar for letting me be
in the driver's seat. I've been very privileged to know
you before this interview and get to hear some of
your story. But I think it's good that we've got
to turn the tables and you got to share your experiences,
your knowledge, and your wisdom with your audience who get
to see a different side of you for a change.
So thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Well, thank you Kate for taking up the opportunity. I
didn't know how it was going to go. But Kate,
have you done media before?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Well, bless and natural, just jump straight in. Well, this
is our way we are. I said beforehand, like this
is going to be easy. We're possible.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
You don't overthink it just because there's microphones and lights
and you, yes, you need a Deadly producer as well.
That's how the magic happens at black Magic Commen. So
thank you Kate for just being being open to a
different It's not even opportunity, it's being open to coming
and doing doing it differently. So thank you. Pleasure love it.
(30:36):
If you'd like any more info on today's guest, please
visit our show notes in the episode description. A big
shout out to all you Deadly Mob and allies who
continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your feedback
means the world. You can rate and review the podcast
on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our socials
(30:57):
and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd love
to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman podcast is
produced by Clint Curtis
Speaker 2 (31:14):
HM
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