Have you ever wondered how societal norms of modesty and beauty shape our thoughts, feelings, and even our interactions? I sat down with the brilliant Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons, and together we unpacked the concept of 'transactional modesty' that she developed in response to the backlash Ciara received for her outfit choice. This episode promises an in-depth discussion on the societal implications of our appearance and behavior, encouraging you to question your personal preferences and their origins.
We also ventured into the concerning trend of adultification, particularly regarding black girls. This phenomenon, where children are seen and treated as adults, brings dangerous implications, and we discuss this in the context of safety in relationships and how we dress. We emphasize the need for comprehensive sex education and the importance of restorative justice in holding adults accountable.
By exploring how these concepts are uniquely applied and enforced in different racial contexts, we aim to provide a fresh perspective on these pressing issues. So, tune in for an enlightening episode that will challenge your perceptions and inspire you to think differently about modesty, beauty, safety, and liberation issues.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
TaReon Jael (00:02):
Welcome to the Black Woman in Bloom podcast, a
semi-monthly podcast designed touplift, encourage and empower
Black women by exploringwellness topics that promote
self-care and mindfulness.
I'm your host, TaReon Jael, acertified health educator and
medical lab scientist.
(00:22):
For more information, pleasevisit blackwomaninbloomcom.
While I hope you enjoylistening to and learning from
the podcast, please rememberthat it is not a substitute for
a relationship with a licensedhealth care provider.
Hello and welcome to Episode 31.
(00:45):
As promised, I'm back with abrand new episode after taking a
short break from the podcast torest and recharge.
For this episode, I had thepleasure of interviewing Dr
Candice Nicole Hargons.
Dr Candice Nicole Hargons is anaward-winning associate
(01:09):
professor of counselingpsychology at the University of
Kentucky, where she studiessexual wellness and liberation.
She hosts Fuck the System, asexual liberation podcast, and
How to Love a Human, aliberation podcast that asks
people with multiplemarginalized identities what the
(01:31):
world would be like if it lovedthem.
She's published over 50research articles and has been
featured in the Huffington Post,the APA Monitor, Good
Housekeeping, Women's Health,Blavity, Cosmopolitan and The
New York Times.
It's been a while since I'veinterviewed anyone, so it was
(01:54):
refreshing and fun to have DrHargons on the podcast.
She truly is a wealth ofknowledge, and the work she does
around sexual liberation formarginalized folks is necessary
and so important.
During our conversation wediscuss some topics like
transactional modesty, bodyliberation and more.
(02:15):
I hope you enjoy ourconversation as much as I did.
Let's get into my discussionwith Dr Candice Nicole Hargons.
Dr Candice, I'm wondering ifyou could just kind of introduce
us to the topic oftransactional modesty and just
kind of what that is and kind ofjust get us going this morning.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (02:37):
Yes, okay, so I came up with the
term.
When Sierra wore that beautifuland sheer dress and so many
people had stuff to say about itnegative stuff to say about it,
specifically because she was amarried woman, she was a
(02:57):
Christian woman, she was amother I was like what is this
I've been sitting with, why wecall some black girls fast and
the way we label and policeblack girls and women's
sexualities.
And I was like what do we thinkshe did to transgress these
ideas of motherhood and wifehoodand Christianity and wearing
(03:21):
this dress?
And so the concept oftransactional modesty really
speaks to this idea that if youportray a certain standard of
womanhood a really small, narrowwindow of acceptability,
respectability and you do thatbecause it brokers you access to
(03:41):
the husband and to kids and toa secure life and all of these
things And that women whotransgress that standard don't
deserve it.
They aren't worthy of it.
So the women who have upheldthe standard and feel like I've
gotten the things that I deservebased on this, feel especially
affronted when they see a womanwho's not upholding that same
(04:03):
standard have access to the samethings.
I think it pisses people off AndI was like why are people so
mad right now.
What about this?
anger some people and notothers, and so that's where the
term came from, and so I put itout there on Instagram and I was
just kind of playing aroundwith him.
People were like yes, yes, andthen they talk.
(04:26):
You know, some folks talkedabout how they used to buy into
that and kind of let it go, andsome folks are like no, this is
real, it's real in my community.
TaReon Jael (04:34):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It's really interesting thatyou came up with this and you
were playing with this idea oflike, well, what is this thing
right?
And especially the part aboutthis idea of oh, it's somebody's
wife, it's somebody's mother.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (04:59):
It's like if you were just
unattached then maybe, but nowyou got to represent your family
And to do that you have to haveyour nipples and like what
covered in the certain way.
TaReon Jael (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, and I don't know if this could just be
my perception, but it seemswhen it, when it's black women
that seem to really get thosecriticisms of that.
A lot of times we hear ittowards black girls, black women
(05:34):
, but especially within our owncommunity.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (05:39):
Yeah , there's definitely a
racialized, racist component toit.
I don't think it's exclusive toour communities.
I think most communities policewomen, sexualities and
expression of their sexuality.
So there's a Madonna horrorcomplex version in every culture
, every racial culture.
(05:59):
But I think because I'm in theblack community, i'm attuned to
how we talk to each other, howwe regard each other, and so I
can name what those labels areand with a little bit more
precision, and I care more abouthow we treat each other than
how other communities treat eachother at this stage in my life.
(06:19):
So that's where that centeringblack women's experiences comes
from for me.
TaReon Jael (06:25):
Okay, i appreciate you saying that and clarifying
that for me.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (06:28):
Yeah , Because I don't think we're
unique in that way.
I think that there is a racistcomponent to it in that other
cultures think they get topolice black women, sexualities
and expression, whereas itdoesn't go the other way because
of the way we organize ourhumanity.
TaReon Jael (06:49):
Okay, okay.
So this definitely brings tomind right now Janelle Monae's
new album, the Age of Pleasure,and leading up to promoting the
album, and we've really justbeen seeing her evolution as an
artist and as a woman, or well,she uses a gender expansive
(07:13):
person?
Yeah, She's using more, yeah,gender expansive and she's
identifying as non-binary rightnow.
It's just for to me been verybeautiful to watch and just
seeing her be so liberated inthat, and definitely I've been
(07:36):
hearing a lot of conversationabout oh well, and she's even
spoken about this on interviewsthat she's done how, when she
used to wear a suit, peoplewould say would try to use her
as this example of, oh, this ishow a woman should dress.
She's covered and she did notlike that.
(07:58):
She said no, you know, this ismy way of honoring my parents
the uniform and this.
I feel sexy, i feel fly in this.
And now that she said, you knowshe tweeted titties out for the
next 15 years And she's likeall of those versions of that,
(08:22):
this is us, all of theseversions, whether we're in a
suit, whether we have ourtitties out, she said this is us
and this is The Age of Pleasure.
Oh, that's Yes.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (08:37):
I'm living for it.
I am living for, i'm living forblack women assuming dynamism
like that.
We get to be multifaceted inmany different things in our
lifetimes And sometimes thatdoes look like you know suits,
and sometimes that looks like abeautiful pair of breasts that
(08:58):
you want on display And whenthey're no longer what society
deems beautiful like.
I love the imagery she had ofher and her aunt or an elder
black woman Yes no-transcriptWhose breasts sagged and they
were chilling and vibing andit's like both of those breasts
(09:19):
should be on display.
It wasn't.
It wasn't just like they haveto be perfectly perky, you know.
So I like, i love that nuance,like if it's gonna be for the
next 15 years, 15 year later,but you know.
TaReon Jael (09:33):
Oh, that's true, isn't it?
It's just and just like it.
Just embracing all of that, andin an interview that they did
recently, they also said I.
Of course they worded it sobeautifully.
It was something along thelines of I'm no longer dimming
(09:57):
my light or dimming myself tomake others comfortable.
And just the and you could justsee the liberation, just the
freedom.
I was just wondering if youcould just kind of speak on just
that the liberation for blackfolk, you know, black women,
(10:19):
black black, non binary.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (10:25):
I think that we are so worthy of
the liberation we desire, butsome of us have had our radical
imaginations compromised, and sowe can't even imagine
liberation until someone showsus what it could potentially
look like.
From their estimation, theirliberation was in both the suit
(10:49):
and in, you know, in a more like, physically exposed, like.
Both could be liberated, and Isee it the same way, and so it's
for me about self definition,as opposed to assuming that
stereotypes society imposes onblack people have to define you
or you have to react to them allthe time.
It's about autonomy and agency,being able to say this is what
(11:16):
feels right for me right now.
Being able to entrust your bodyand your intuition and your
wisdom, being able to challengenorms that maybe have been
familiar but no longer serve you.
So those components areliberating for me.
That's what I when I think aboutsexual liberation, but when I
think about collective andglobal liberation, they're
(11:38):
they're tied together in thatway, and so for black people
women, films, gender expansivefolk, non binary folk, men like
I really think that we allshould take a moment.
Sometimes you just need to takea pause and determine who you
want to be, and sometimes itdoes align with what your
community or your friends oryour family seeing you or want
you to be, But sometimes itdoesn't.
And are you willing to take therisk, you know, to lose a
little bit of that socialcapital or clout for a little
(12:00):
while, to find yourself and tofind yourself?
Yeah, that's really beautiful.
I love that.
You, you know, gave some, gavesome terms to to think about and
gave some language.
TaReon Jael (12:27):
Yeah, or just expanding and being able to
explore that.
I've been thinking a lot aboutself expression When you
mentioned that sometimes the waywe like to present does align
(12:47):
with our society or culture andsometimes that's comfortable for
us or that's that's our true.
I love the movie The Woman Kingand I think about this scene
it's pretty much in the middleof the movie where Malik he
(13:08):
comes to the the Kings Palaceand he sees Naoui and they're
talking through the palm lineand he asks yes may I come in?
and she says no, you know, nomen are allowed past the palm
(13:29):
line.
And she asks are foreign menallowed to look upon the Kings
women?
and Malik says well, in Brazil,because he's from Brazil.
He says well, in Brazil, womencover their bodies with long,
long sleeves and long skirts.
(13:50):
And Naoui says, well, how dothey run?
you know it's not the bestexample, but to me it kind of
speaks to.
You know, for Naoui and and theAgoji women, they dress in this
way, you know it's functionalyeah, it's functional, right,
(14:11):
because where they live, theclimate it's hot, and then
they're warriors, they fight,they need to be able to run and
jump and do all these things andthen, whereas for Malik, in
Brazil, maybe the women are notrunning you know, but it's also
still hot and in Victoriandresses we're not hitting like
(14:32):
that's.
That's where I start thinking,okay, so I wonder is it, was it
a component of, you know,catholicism?
but I just I think of thatscene and she says well, how do
they run?
you know?
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (14:47):
and it was so curious, it wasn't
even judgmental, it was like huhwell, how are you all supposed
to figure out that part?
but I think if we approachourselves and our, our customs,
our traditions, our norms withthat type of curiosity, we give
ourselves permission to rethinkit.
(15:08):
Like for me some days I show upas a professor and I'm in
sweats.
My intellectual capacityremains the same if I'm in a
suit or if I'm in sweats, and soyou know that that's just how I
want to be represented today,how I want to represent today,
and a lot of my colleagues dothat.
And so when I think about likethese standards of
(15:29):
professionalism or thesestandards of beauty, these
standards of modesty, people say, well, you shouldn't wear
bonnets to your doctor'sappointments and stuff like that
.
And it's like, okay, everybodygets to have preferences, but
are you willing to examine them,even if you keep the same
preference after that?
(15:50):
could you potentially examinewhere it may come from, how you
got that idea, what it means toyou and why it means that to you
?
TaReon Jael (15:58):
I like that you said to you know, be willing to
examine.
Because in preparation for ourinterview, i I started thinking
like well for myself, like howdo I like to?
you know, i kind of do thisanyway.
I just I kind of overthinkthings.
It's the scientist in me.
(16:21):
I start like, well, why do Ilike to wear this and not that?
because so.
So, doc, dr Candace, so in oneone instance, if I'm home, i
might like to wear, just youknow, a little wrinkly t-shirt
and some booty shorts, you know,and be like ease of dancing in
(16:42):
my booty shorts, you know, andjust dance around, or just
because I'm comfortable, i'm athome and then as soon as I'm I
say, oh, i need to, i need to goto the store, i'm going to
change for me personally yeahbut I know there are plenty of
folks, plenty of women, who willgrab their keys, their purse
(17:07):
and put on their Gucci slidesand go to the store in their
t-shirt and their booty shortsand not give it a second thought
yep and so I thought about well, oh, my god, you know this.
Where does it come from?
is it?
was it what I saw where I wasraised?
I started just examining thatand just thinking about that and
then also thinking about how Irelate to others, mm-hmm.
(17:33):
So if I'm out and about and Ido see another person, another
black woman or man, and andthey're in there, you know their
booty shorts and their Guccislides and their bonnet what,
what do I?
what are my thoughts?
how do I how?
what is do I say in my mind?
(17:54):
about that person or myselfwhat story do you tell?
yeah, and I started thinkingokay, well, oh, my goodness,
like, where does that come from?
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (18:03):
you know, mm-hmm, and and the thing
is so for you and tell in thestory.
I really appreciate thevulnerability in that, because I
think a lot of us have momentswhere we're like I'm judging,
where is the judgment comingfrom?
TaReon Jael (18:19):
yes, mm-hmm yeah, and it's like, and but when it?
but then I thought past thatit's like okay, well, i'm
judging, but here's the thing islike first of all, they're
human, just like me, andespecially if I see another
black woman, another woman ofcolor, another person of color,
(18:41):
and we're in these black bodies.
So, whether I'm in t-shirt andjeans, or they're in a tee, a
t-shirt and booty shorts, therethere could be instances where
we may encounter folks who,regardless of how we're dressed,
that's right regardless of howwe're behaving, whether I'm
(19:02):
quiet and soft spoken or whetherthey're loud or you know
demonstrative expressive, theystill they see.
What they see is a black womanyep, and no matter how we're
dressed, if that person hastheir, their issues, whether
(19:25):
it's sexism, racism, classism,whatever is them, mm-hmm, they
will treat us the second yep.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (19:35):
So it's kind of like I just started
thinking about I had all thesethoughts yeah have lots of
thoughts and lots of feelings,but you get your good net,
something about thattransactional modesty piece,
because a lot of times themessaging we get around it is
that it's protective.
You know it's protective to bemodest And when, in fact, the
(19:56):
way you described it is the wayI experience it and observe it
Not usually.
No, we would hope that it wouldbe, but it isn't.
And so, since it isn't and werecognize that, if we're honest,
then why are we upholding thatstandard?
Like, if we think that a womanshould be more protected if
(20:19):
she's modest, that's problematicas fuck.
Like, if you know, like it'slike, hmm well, she had pants on
today and the other girl hadbooty shorts on, so she deserved
protection and she didn't fromviolence, from sexual assault,
from harassment.
We really and that was one ofthe questions I asked because
somebody was like upset with thedialogue They were like no, you
(20:43):
need to be dressed this way andthis way.
And I was like they were likebecause then you be regarded as
a sex worker.
Or I was like do you think sexworkers deserve protection?
Cause I do.
Do you think that they deservecare and love?
And the person did not answerthe question.
I mean and I think that gets tothe heart of a lot of us feel
(21:03):
like care, love, respect,attention, protection are
reserved only for people whouphold certain standards, and
some people do like to act onthat.
But most people are going totreat you the way they want to
treat you violently or not,based on their stuff, whatever
they're dealing with.
TaReon Jael (21:25):
So my question is where do you think it came from,
Just this notion of if I dressthis way, I'll be protected from
, like you said, the, theviolent.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (21:43):
I think.
So you know how, when you're inan experience that's oppressive
, your brain has to come up withsome ideas about how to save
yourself or how to survive.
Regardless of whether they'retrue, sometimes it's a little
bit of magical thinking to feellike you have some control over
(22:04):
a situation over which you donot have control, and so I think
some ways it's anunderstandable coping mechanism
with oppression to to exhibit atype of perfectionism where it's
like there are all of thesethings that I can do to maybe
help myself be better protected,and society's messaging
(22:27):
legitimizes some of them.
So it's not like we were crazyand just making up stuff.
Like the messaging in societyis that there is a standard to
get to for success, forprotection, for worthiness.
But some people are just borninto stuff Like you think about
wealth.
People are like you need to cutyour hair or you need to wear
(22:47):
your hair in this way for wealth.
You know to move up theprofessional ladder.
Some people are born intonepotism and they're going to
move up the professional ladderregardless of what their hair
looks like or regardless, and sowe we begin to make these
associations that are not causal.
It's like if I act more like awhite person and if I you know
if I embody more misogynisticideas or if I like all of these
(23:14):
things, because that's whatwe're observing in the power
structure, you're like there's acorrelation there And it's like
, no, that's just how people whodominate other people act And
it's not necessarily going toafford you the things that
you're looking for.
And when it does, on those rareoccasions and it reinforces it,
then you know folks can upholdthat like see how that worked.
(23:35):
But usually it's not workingAnd I think if we were honest
about how often it works versushow often it does not work, we
probably would have a betterhandle on how we release some of
it.
So I think it's anunderstandable reaction to
oppression And it's not one thatcontinues to serve us or maybe
(23:56):
has ever served us.
Maybe it's been harmful in someways that we need to consider.
TaReon Jael (24:26):
Now let's get back into the interview.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (24:31):
Well , i was curious of what you came
up with.
So when you did examine, like,oh, where does this idea about
why I like to wear, you know whyI like to put on pants, which
is for me totally understandable, but where did you have any
insight into where it came from?
TaReon Jael (24:50):
I was never like told you need to wear this or
that, but for me, especiallyduring teenage years, I was very
uncomfortable in my body andhaving like any like any of my
shape show, it was just like nowhich I think a lot of us during
(25:15):
that that I adolescent time.
That's kind of calm, kind ofcommon, just the way our right,
the way our brains arereconfiguring.
I felt, and sometimes still dofeel, safer by mm-hmm, by being
covered.
Especially where I live rightnow it's, it's predominantly
(25:37):
white.
When I go in spaces I have topresent a certain way to feel
safe.
Like I'll look at my clothesand I'm like, oh, if I wear this
and I'm going to the mall, whatcould happen?
my legs are out?
what if some like?
(25:58):
what if somebody says something?
what if some men say something?
and even to this, even kind oflike adds to kind of what people
were saying about Sierra islike if I'm with my husband, if
I'm out and about with myhusband, then I'll feel more
(26:20):
comfortable wearing my dresslike like, oh well, if I'm with
him, people might, might look,but nobody's gonna be like hey
right right, baby, you know cuzthey're gonna recognize his
authority yeah, and it's reallyinteresting because it's like,
(26:42):
well, he's my husband, he's notmy overseer, you know, it's like
he's my husband.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (26:50):
You know, i, i wear, and I like to
think, oh, i wear what I want towear, but when, when really,
it's like, well, i do, but Istill give consideration for,
yeah, where I'm going to go, whoI'm going to be, around the
setting, the vibe and I thinkthose are important
(27:14):
considerations, right, and sosometimes folks think I'm saying
just go to opposite or extremeends and it's like, no, you do
still get to consider all ofthose pieces and your safety,
your sense of safety, isimportant in this, and so if you
know certain things that youwear help you to feel more safe.
I don't have any judgment forthat, but when we start to
(27:37):
police and survey each other andmake judgments about each
other's worth based on that likeyou don't deserve a good life
if you're wearing booty shortsversus pants or a dress, it's
like I'm and people make thoseleaps.
It's like those are the leapsthat I'm trying to eradicate,
because I think that we can do alot better and have a lot more
(28:00):
compassion and care for eachother when you talk about
worthiness, and I remember I wasan undergrad, okay, and I
remember I was sitting with somefriends, guys and girls, and
this was back.
TaReon Jael (28:17):
This was before our Kelly was you know, muted or
deleted or canceled, whatever hewas, and but there was
conversation about what he wasdoing with underage girls and I
remember saying to my friendslike wait a minute, you know
(28:38):
he's wrong.
Like he's a grown man, theseare girls, you know he should be
.
He should be held accountable,he should be like why are?
we still supporting him and whyare we putting this?
at that time there was thisconversation of like these are
fast hailed girls and so no, itwasn't said at the time.
(29:04):
But now that I'm thinking backon it, it was kind of like were
these girls worthy of protectionfrom him?
and I even had a friend saymm-hmm, who was from Chicago,
say, well, i've known some ofthe girls, or I've known people
(29:29):
who've known the girls, and thisgirl, that girl, they were fast
, and so it was almost like saidlike, oh well, she's fast or
they're fast.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (29:42):
So this so they got what they got
what they deserve.
TaReon Jael (29:45):
And I remember thinking what, being confused
because I was like they're girls, he's a grown man it's.
It's wrong.
It's just wrong.
Yeah, and and I I didn't havethe language at the time to or
(30:07):
just the assertiveness either toquestion and say well, because
they were these.
Quote-unquote fast girls.
They didn't deserve protectionfrom, yeah, this grown man.
And it just makes me thinkabout how, how far we're coming
(30:32):
also, how the steps we need tostill take, mm-hmm when you hit,
when you tell that story.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (30:40):
It hits home for me one because I
was a fast girl, so I I embracedthat as an aspect of my
identity because I was alwayscurious about sex and precocious
, and I made my sexual debut at14.
Like I, i made, i made thedecisions that I felt like I
wanted to make, though, and itwasn't with grown ass men, it
(31:02):
was with peers, and so had I inthat age, made, even made, a
decision that I wanted to bewith an adult male.
The community's responsibility,and that adult males
responsibility, was to tell meno, to say absolutely not.
(31:23):
You're not at the age ofconsent to make this decision.
You know, like this is not,this is not something that we
play with.
This is something that you, youdon't, you don't want to do,
and this is something that I amnot going to do because I'm not
a predator, and that is theconversation that I think a lot
of us avoid having.
What was the community aroundthem?
(31:46):
What was their responsibilityto those girls?
What was our Kelly's team'sresponsibility?
What was our Kelly's grown-assresponsibility?
to say no and not elicit orsolicit attention from girls,
from girls, from children.
And Then how does that like mapon to the adultification of
(32:10):
black girls.
It was like you're not even atthe age of consent, your
prefrontal cortex isn't fullydeveloped, so no, you cannot
consent to having a sexualexperience with a grown adult
male.
You can consent to a sexualexploration with peers and Even
in that case, what questionsshould we be asking?
(32:31):
what type of sex educationshould we have so that Girls
around that age can makeinformed decisions?
So we we missed the mark on somany things on comprehensive sex
ed for generations of people,on sexual violence prevention
and sexual predation Preventionin our communities all
(32:53):
communities, but just you know Icare most about the black
community, so that's what I'mspeaking to.
We miss the opportunity to haverestorative justice and to hold
adults responsible for adultdecisions.
When we blame black girls andwomen, it's such like we do such
scapegoating When in fact we'revery vulnerable in our society
(33:14):
and in our communities.
And I think that the type ofmental gymnastics you got to
make to come up with well,they're fast, so they deserved
sexual violence.
Like, how do you sleep?
TaReon Jael (33:28):
well, i don't know and I like that you listed out
the different steps that we cantake.
I really enjoyed you sharingyour expertise and Just laying
out, you know, explaining thedifferent concepts and laying
out solutions.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargon (33:49):
Thank you so much for having me.
Welcome to the Black Woman in Bloom podcast, a
semi-monthly podcast designed touplift, encourage and empower
Black women by exploringwellness topics that promote
self-care and mindfulness.
I'm your host, TaReon Jael, acertified health educator and
medical lab scientist.
(00:22):
For more information, pleasevisit blackwomaninbloomcom.
While I hope you enjoylistening to and learning from
the podcast, please rememberthat it is not a substitute for
a relationship with a licensedhealth care provider.
Hello and welcome to Episode 31.
(00:45):
As promised, I'm back with abrand new episode after taking a
short break from the podcast torest and recharge.
For this episode, I had thepleasure of interviewing Dr
Candice Nicole Hargons.
Dr Candice Nicole Hargons is anaward-winning associate
(01:09):
professor of counselingpsychology at the University of
Kentucky, where she studiessexual wellness and liberation.
She hosts Fuck the System, asexual liberation podcast, and
How to Love a Human, aliberation podcast that asks
people with multiplemarginalized identities what the
(01:31):
world would be like if it lovedthem.
She's published over 50research articles and has been
featured in the Huffington Post,the APA Monitor, Good
Housekeeping, Women's Health,Blavity, Cosmopolitan and The
New York Times.
It's been a while since I'veinterviewed anyone, so it was
(01:54):
refreshing and fun to have DrHargons on the podcast.
She truly is a wealth ofknowledge, and the work she does
around sexual liberation formarginalized folks is necessary
and so important.
During our conversation wediscuss some topics like
transactional modesty, bodyliberation and more.
(02:15):
I hope you enjoy ourconversation as much as I did.
Let's get into my discussionwith Dr Candice Nicole Hargons.
Dr Candice, I'm wondering ifyou could just kind of introduce
us to the topic oftransactional modesty and just
kind of what that is and kind ofjust get us going this morning.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (02:37):
Yes, okay, so I came up with the
term.
When Sierra wore that beautifuland sheer dress and so many
people had stuff to say about itnegative stuff to say about it,
specifically because she was amarried woman, she was a
(02:57):
Christian woman, she was amother I was like what is this
I've been sitting with, why wecall some black girls fast and
the way we label and policeblack girls and women's
sexualities.
And I was like what do we thinkshe did to transgress these
ideas of motherhood and wifehoodand Christianity and wearing
(03:21):
this dress?
And so the concept oftransactional modesty really
speaks to this idea that if youportray a certain standard of
womanhood a really small, narrowwindow of acceptability,
respectability and you do thatbecause it brokers you access to
(03:41):
the husband and to kids and toa secure life and all of these
things And that women whotransgress that standard don't
deserve it.
They aren't worthy of it.
So the women who have upheldthe standard and feel like I've
gotten the things that I deservebased on this, feel especially
affronted when they see a womanwho's not upholding that same
(04:03):
standard have access to the samethings.
I think it pisses people off AndI was like why are people so
mad right now.
What about this?
anger some people and notothers, and so that's where the
term came from, and so I put itout there on Instagram and I was
just kind of playing aroundwith him.
People were like yes, yes, andthen they talk.
(04:26):
You know, some folks talkedabout how they used to buy into
that and kind of let it go, andsome folks are like no, this is
real, it's real in my community.
TaReon Jael (04:34):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It's really interesting thatyou came up with this and you
were playing with this idea oflike, well, what is this thing
right?
And especially the part aboutthis idea of oh, it's somebody's
wife, it's somebody's mother.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (04:59):
It's like if you were just
unattached then maybe, but nowyou got to represent your family
And to do that you have to haveyour nipples and like what
covered in the certain way.
TaReon Jael (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, and I don't know if this could just be
my perception, but it seemswhen it, when it's black women
that seem to really get thosecriticisms of that.
A lot of times we hear ittowards black girls, black women
(05:34):
, but especially within our owncommunity.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (05:39):
Yeah , there's definitely a
racialized, racist component toit.
I don't think it's exclusive toour communities.
I think most communities policewomen, sexualities and
expression of their sexuality.
So there's a Madonna horrorcomplex version in every culture
, every racial culture.
(05:59):
But I think because I'm in theblack community, i'm attuned to
how we talk to each other, howwe regard each other, and so I
can name what those labels areand with a little bit more
precision, and I care more abouthow we treat each other than
how other communities treat eachother at this stage in my life.
(06:19):
So that's where that centeringblack women's experiences comes
from for me.
TaReon Jael (06:25):
Okay, i appreciate you saying that and clarifying
that for me.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (06:28):
Yeah , Because I don't think we're
unique in that way.
I think that there is a racistcomponent to it in that other
cultures think they get topolice black women, sexualities
and expression, whereas itdoesn't go the other way because
of the way we organize ourhumanity.
TaReon Jael (06:49):
Okay, okay.
So this definitely brings tomind right now Janelle Monae's
new album, the Age of Pleasure,and leading up to promoting the
album, and we've really justbeen seeing her evolution as an
artist and as a woman, or well,she uses a gender expansive
(07:13):
person?
Yeah, She's using more, yeah,gender expansive and she's
identifying as non-binary rightnow.
It's just for to me been verybeautiful to watch and just
seeing her be so liberated inthat, and definitely I've been
(07:36):
hearing a lot of conversationabout oh well, and she's even
spoken about this on interviewsthat she's done how, when she
used to wear a suit, peoplewould say would try to use her
as this example of, oh, this ishow a woman should dress.
She's covered and she did notlike that.
(07:58):
She said no, you know, this ismy way of honoring my parents
the uniform and this.
I feel sexy, i feel fly in this.
And now that she said, you knowshe tweeted titties out for the
next 15 years And she's likeall of those versions of that,
(08:22):
this is us, all of theseversions, whether we're in a
suit, whether we have ourtitties out, she said this is us
and this is The Age of Pleasure.
Oh, that's Yes.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (08:37):
I'm living for it.
I am living for, i'm living forblack women assuming dynamism
like that.
We get to be multifaceted inmany different things in our
lifetimes And sometimes thatdoes look like you know suits,
and sometimes that looks like abeautiful pair of breasts that
(08:58):
you want on display And whenthey're no longer what society
deems beautiful like.
I love the imagery she had ofher and her aunt or an elder
black woman Yes no-transcriptWhose breasts sagged and they
were chilling and vibing andit's like both of those breasts
(09:19):
should be on display.
It wasn't.
It wasn't just like they haveto be perfectly perky, you know.
So I like, i love that nuance,like if it's gonna be for the
next 15 years, 15 year later,but you know.
TaReon Jael (09:33):
Oh, that's true, isn't it?
It's just and just like it.
Just embracing all of that, andin an interview that they did
recently, they also said I.
Of course they worded it sobeautifully.
It was something along thelines of I'm no longer dimming
(09:57):
my light or dimming myself tomake others comfortable.
And just the and you could justsee the liberation, just the
freedom.
I was just wondering if youcould just kind of speak on just
that the liberation for blackfolk, you know, black women,
(10:19):
black black, non binary.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (10:25):
I think that we are so worthy of
the liberation we desire, butsome of us have had our radical
imaginations compromised, and sowe can't even imagine
liberation until someone showsus what it could potentially
look like.
From their estimation, theirliberation was in both the suit
(10:49):
and in, you know, in a more like, physically exposed, like.
Both could be liberated, and Isee it the same way, and so it's
for me about self definition,as opposed to assuming that
stereotypes society imposes onblack people have to define you
or you have to react to them allthe time.
It's about autonomy and agency,being able to say this is what
(11:16):
feels right for me right now.
Being able to entrust your bodyand your intuition and your
wisdom, being able to challengenorms that maybe have been
familiar but no longer serve you.
So those components areliberating for me.
That's what I when I think aboutsexual liberation, but when I
think about collective andglobal liberation, they're
(11:38):
they're tied together in thatway, and so for black people
women, films, gender expansivefolk, non binary folk, men like
I really think that we allshould take a moment.
Sometimes you just need to takea pause and determine who you
want to be, and sometimes itdoes align with what your
community or your friends oryour family seeing you or want
you to be, But sometimes itdoesn't.
And are you willing to take therisk, you know, to lose a
little bit of that socialcapital or clout for a little
(12:00):
while, to find yourself and tofind yourself?
Yeah, that's really beautiful.
I love that.
You, you know, gave some, gavesome terms to to think about and
gave some language.
TaReon Jael (12:27):
Yeah, or just expanding and being able to
explore that.
I've been thinking a lot aboutself expression When you
mentioned that sometimes the waywe like to present does align
(12:47):
with our society or culture andsometimes that's comfortable for
us or that's that's our true.
I love the movie The Woman Kingand I think about this scene
it's pretty much in the middleof the movie where Malik he
(13:08):
comes to the the Kings Palaceand he sees Naoui and they're
talking through the palm lineand he asks yes may I come in?
and she says no, you know, nomen are allowed past the palm
(13:29):
line.
And she asks are foreign menallowed to look upon the Kings
women?
and Malik says well, in Brazil,because he's from Brazil.
He says well, in Brazil, womencover their bodies with long,
long sleeves and long skirts.
(13:50):
And Naoui says, well, how dothey run?
you know it's not the bestexample, but to me it kind of
speaks to.
You know, for Naoui and and theAgoji women, they dress in this
way, you know it's functionalyeah, it's functional, right,
(14:11):
because where they live, theclimate it's hot, and then
they're warriors, they fight,they need to be able to run and
jump and do all these things andthen, whereas for Malik, in
Brazil, maybe the women are notrunning you know, but it's also
still hot and in Victoriandresses we're not hitting like
(14:32):
that's.
That's where I start thinking,okay, so I wonder is it, was it
a component of, you know,catholicism?
but I just I think of thatscene and she says well, how do
they run?
you know?
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (14:47):
and it was so curious, it wasn't
even judgmental, it was like huhwell, how are you all supposed
to figure out that part?
but I think if we approachourselves and our, our customs,
our traditions, our norms withthat type of curiosity, we give
ourselves permission to rethinkit.
(15:08):
Like for me some days I show upas a professor and I'm in
sweats.
My intellectual capacityremains the same if I'm in a
suit or if I'm in sweats, and soyou know that that's just how I
want to be represented today,how I want to represent today,
and a lot of my colleagues dothat.
And so when I think about likethese standards of
(15:29):
professionalism or thesestandards of beauty, these
standards of modesty, people say, well, you shouldn't wear
bonnets to your doctor'sappointments and stuff like that
.
And it's like, okay, everybodygets to have preferences, but
are you willing to examine them,even if you keep the same
preference after that?
(15:50):
could you potentially examinewhere it may come from, how you
got that idea, what it means toyou and why it means that to you
?
TaReon Jael (15:58):
I like that you said to you know, be willing to
examine.
Because in preparation for ourinterview, i I started thinking
like well for myself, like howdo I like to?
you know, i kind of do thisanyway.
I just I kind of overthinkthings.
It's the scientist in me.
(16:21):
I start like, well, why do Ilike to wear this and not that?
because so.
So, doc, dr Candace, so in oneone instance, if I'm home, i
might like to wear, just youknow, a little wrinkly t-shirt
and some booty shorts, you know,and be like ease of dancing in
(16:42):
my booty shorts, you know, andjust dance around, or just
because I'm comfortable, i'm athome and then as soon as I'm I
say, oh, i need to, i need to goto the store, i'm going to
change for me personally yeahbut I know there are plenty of
folks, plenty of women, who willgrab their keys, their purse
(17:07):
and put on their Gucci slidesand go to the store in their
t-shirt and their booty shortsand not give it a second thought
yep and so I thought about well, oh, my god, you know this.
Where does it come from?
is it?
was it what I saw where I wasraised?
I started just examining thatand just thinking about that and
then also thinking about how Irelate to others, mm-hmm.
(17:33):
So if I'm out and about and Ido see another person, another
black woman or man, and andthey're in there, you know their
booty shorts and their Guccislides and their bonnet what,
what do I?
what are my thoughts?
how do I how?
what is do I say in my mind?
(17:54):
about that person or myselfwhat story do you tell?
yeah, and I started thinkingokay, well, oh, my goodness,
like, where does that come from?
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (18:03):
you know, mm-hmm, and and the thing
is so for you and tell in thestory.
I really appreciate thevulnerability in that, because I
think a lot of us have momentswhere we're like I'm judging,
where is the judgment comingfrom?
TaReon Jael (18:19):
yes, mm-hmm yeah, and it's like, and but when it?
but then I thought past thatit's like okay, well, i'm
judging, but here's the thing islike first of all, they're
human, just like me, andespecially if I see another
black woman, another woman ofcolor, another person of color,
(18:41):
and we're in these black bodies.
So, whether I'm in t-shirt andjeans, or they're in a tee, a
t-shirt and booty shorts, therethere could be instances where
we may encounter folks who,regardless of how we're dressed,
that's right regardless of howwe're behaving, whether I'm
(19:02):
quiet and soft spoken or whetherthey're loud or you know
demonstrative expressive, theystill they see.
What they see is a black womanyep, and no matter how we're
dressed, if that person hastheir, their issues, whether
(19:25):
it's sexism, racism, classism,whatever is them, mm-hmm, they
will treat us the second yep.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (19:35):
So it's kind of like I just started
thinking about I had all thesethoughts yeah have lots of
thoughts and lots of feelings,but you get your good net,
something about thattransactional modesty piece,
because a lot of times themessaging we get around it is
that it's protective.
You know it's protective to bemodest And when, in fact, the
(19:56):
way you described it is the wayI experience it and observe it
Not usually.
No, we would hope that it wouldbe, but it isn't.
And so, since it isn't and werecognize that, if we're honest,
then why are we upholding thatstandard?
Like, if we think that a womanshould be more protected if
(20:19):
she's modest, that's problematicas fuck.
Like, if you know, like it'slike, hmm well, she had pants on
today and the other girl hadbooty shorts on, so she deserved
protection and she didn't fromviolence, from sexual assault,
from harassment.
We really and that was one ofthe questions I asked because
somebody was like upset with thedialogue They were like no, you
(20:43):
need to be dressed this way andthis way.
And I was like they were likebecause then you be regarded as
a sex worker.
Or I was like do you think sexworkers deserve protection?
Cause I do.
Do you think that they deservecare and love?
And the person did not answerthe question.
I mean and I think that gets tothe heart of a lot of us feel
(21:03):
like care, love, respect,attention, protection are
reserved only for people whouphold certain standards, and
some people do like to act onthat.
But most people are going totreat you the way they want to
treat you violently or not,based on their stuff, whatever
they're dealing with.
TaReon Jael (21:25):
So my question is where do you think it came from,
Just this notion of if I dressthis way, I'll be protected from
, like you said, the, theviolent.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (21:43):
I think.
So you know how, when you're inan experience that's oppressive
, your brain has to come up withsome ideas about how to save
yourself or how to survive.
Regardless of whether they'retrue, sometimes it's a little
bit of magical thinking to feellike you have some control over
(22:04):
a situation over which you donot have control, and so I think
some ways it's anunderstandable coping mechanism
with oppression to to exhibit atype of perfectionism where it's
like there are all of thesethings that I can do to maybe
help myself be better protected,and society's messaging
(22:27):
legitimizes some of them.
So it's not like we were crazyand just making up stuff.
Like the messaging in societyis that there is a standard to
get to for success, forprotection, for worthiness.
But some people are just borninto stuff Like you think about
wealth.
People are like you need to cutyour hair or you need to wear
(22:47):
your hair in this way for wealth.
You know to move up theprofessional ladder.
Some people are born intonepotism and they're going to
move up the professional ladderregardless of what their hair
looks like or regardless, and sowe we begin to make these
associations that are not causal.
It's like if I act more like awhite person and if I you know
if I embody more misogynisticideas or if I like all of these
(23:14):
things, because that's whatwe're observing in the power
structure, you're like there's acorrelation there And it's like
, no, that's just how people whodominate other people act And
it's not necessarily going toafford you the things that
you're looking for.
And when it does, on those rareoccasions and it reinforces it,
then you know folks can upholdthat like see how that worked.
(23:35):
But usually it's not workingAnd I think if we were honest
about how often it works versushow often it does not work, we
probably would have a betterhandle on how we release some of
it.
So I think it's anunderstandable reaction to
oppression And it's not one thatcontinues to serve us or maybe
(23:56):
has ever served us.
Maybe it's been harmful in someways that we need to consider.
TaReon Jael (24:26):
Now let's get back into the interview.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (24:31):
Well , i was curious of what you came
up with.
So when you did examine, like,oh, where does this idea about
why I like to wear, you know whyI like to put on pants, which
is for me totally understandable, but where did you have any
insight into where it came from?
TaReon Jael (24:50):
I was never like told you need to wear this or
that, but for me, especiallyduring teenage years, I was very
uncomfortable in my body andhaving like any like any of my
shape show, it was just like nowhich I think a lot of us during
(25:15):
that that I adolescent time.
That's kind of calm, kind ofcommon, just the way our right,
the way our brains arereconfiguring.
I felt, and sometimes still dofeel, safer by mm-hmm, by being
covered.
Especially where I live rightnow it's, it's predominantly
(25:37):
white.
When I go in spaces I have topresent a certain way to feel
safe.
Like I'll look at my clothesand I'm like, oh, if I wear this
and I'm going to the mall, whatcould happen?
my legs are out?
what if some like?
(25:58):
what if somebody says something?
what if some men say something?
and even to this, even kind oflike adds to kind of what people
were saying about Sierra islike if I'm with my husband, if
I'm out and about with myhusband, then I'll feel more
(26:20):
comfortable wearing my dresslike like, oh well, if I'm with
him, people might, might look,but nobody's gonna be like hey
right right, baby, you know cuzthey're gonna recognize his
authority yeah, and it's reallyinteresting because it's like,
(26:42):
well, he's my husband, he's notmy overseer, you know, it's like
he's my husband.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (26:50):
You know, i, i wear, and I like to
think, oh, i wear what I want towear, but when, when really,
it's like, well, i do, but Istill give consideration for,
yeah, where I'm going to go, whoI'm going to be, around the
setting, the vibe and I thinkthose are important
(27:14):
considerations, right, and sosometimes folks think I'm saying
just go to opposite or extremeends and it's like, no, you do
still get to consider all ofthose pieces and your safety,
your sense of safety, isimportant in this, and so if you
know certain things that youwear help you to feel more safe.
I don't have any judgment forthat, but when we start to
(27:37):
police and survey each other andmake judgments about each
other's worth based on that likeyou don't deserve a good life
if you're wearing booty shortsversus pants or a dress, it's
like I'm and people make thoseleaps.
It's like those are the leapsthat I'm trying to eradicate,
because I think that we can do alot better and have a lot more
(28:00):
compassion and care for eachother when you talk about
worthiness, and I remember I wasan undergrad, okay, and I
remember I was sitting with somefriends, guys and girls, and
this was back.
TaReon Jael (28:17):
This was before our Kelly was you know, muted or
deleted or canceled, whatever hewas, and but there was
conversation about what he wasdoing with underage girls and I
remember saying to my friendslike wait a minute, you know
(28:38):
he's wrong.
Like he's a grown man, theseare girls, you know he should be
.
He should be held accountable,he should be like why are?
we still supporting him and whyare we putting this?
at that time there was thisconversation of like these are
fast hailed girls and so no, itwasn't said at the time.
(29:04):
But now that I'm thinking backon it, it was kind of like were
these girls worthy of protectionfrom him?
and I even had a friend saymm-hmm, who was from Chicago,
say, well, i've known some ofthe girls, or I've known people
(29:29):
who've known the girls, and thisgirl, that girl, they were fast
, and so it was almost like saidlike, oh well, she's fast or
they're fast.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (29:42):
So this so they got what they got
what they deserve.
TaReon Jael (29:45):
And I remember thinking what, being confused
because I was like they're girls, he's a grown man it's.
It's wrong.
It's just wrong.
Yeah, and and I I didn't havethe language at the time to or
(30:07):
just the assertiveness either toquestion and say well, because
they were these.
Quote-unquote fast girls.
They didn't deserve protectionfrom, yeah, this grown man.
And it just makes me thinkabout how, how far we're coming
(30:32):
also, how the steps we need tostill take, mm-hmm when you hit,
when you tell that story.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons (30:40):
It hits home for me one because I
was a fast girl, so I I embracedthat as an aspect of my
identity because I was alwayscurious about sex and precocious
, and I made my sexual debut at14.
Like I, i made, i made thedecisions that I felt like I
wanted to make, though, and itwasn't with grown ass men, it
(31:02):
was with peers, and so had I inthat age, made, even made, a
decision that I wanted to bewith an adult male.
The community's responsibility,and that adult males
responsibility, was to tell meno, to say absolutely not.
(31:23):
You're not at the age ofconsent to make this decision.
You know, like this is not,this is not something that we
play with.
This is something that you, youdon't, you don't want to do,
and this is something that I amnot going to do because I'm not
a predator, and that is theconversation that I think a lot
of us avoid having.
What was the community aroundthem?
(31:46):
What was their responsibilityto those girls?
What was our Kelly's team'sresponsibility?
What was our Kelly's grown-assresponsibility?
to say no and not elicit orsolicit attention from girls,
from girls, from children.
And Then how does that like mapon to the adultification of
(32:10):
black girls.
It was like you're not even atthe age of consent, your
prefrontal cortex isn't fullydeveloped, so no, you cannot
consent to having a sexualexperience with a grown adult
male.
You can consent to a sexualexploration with peers and Even
in that case, what questionsshould we be asking?
(32:31):
what type of sex educationshould we have so that Girls
around that age can makeinformed decisions?
So we we missed the mark on somany things on comprehensive sex
ed for generations of people,on sexual violence prevention
and sexual predation Preventionin our communities all
(32:53):
communities, but just you know Icare most about the black
community, so that's what I'mspeaking to.
We miss the opportunity to haverestorative justice and to hold
adults responsible for adultdecisions.
When we blame black girls andwomen, it's such like we do such
scapegoating When in fact we'revery vulnerable in our society
(33:14):
and in our communities.
And I think that the type ofmental gymnastics you got to
make to come up with well,they're fast, so they deserved
sexual violence.
Like, how do you sleep?
TaReon Jael (33:28):
well, i don't know and I like that you listed out
the different steps that we cantake.
I really enjoyed you sharingyour expertise and Just laying
out, you know, explaining thedifferent concepts and laying
out solutions.
Dr. Candice Nicole Hargon (33:49):
Thank you so much for having me.
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