December 8, 2024 • 33 mins
In this captivating episode of Bleeding Daylight, host Rodney Olsen sits down with Craig Dehut, co-founder of Appian Media, to explore the transformative power of digital storytelling in bringing biblical narratives to life. Since 2015, Craig and his team have been on a mission to create high-quality, historically accurate media content that helps viewers reimagine and reconnect with biblical stories. Through projects like "Following the Messiah," "Searching for a King," and "Out of Egypt," Appian Media has developed documentaries that not only showcase biblical locations but also aim to deepen viewers' understanding and faith.
The conversation delves into the evolving landscape of faith-based media, highlighting how technological advancements have democratized content creation and opened new avenues for digital evangelism. Craig passionately discusses the importance of using modern media tools to engage audiences, particularly younger generations, and to help people see biblical narratives as real historical events. From using smartphones to capture authentic moments to exploring future possibilities like 360-degree video and virtual reality experiences, Craig encourages Christians to embrace creativity and storytelling as powerful means of sharing the Gospel. As a non-profit organization, Appian Media relies on donations and a commitment to making their content freely available, inviting listeners to join their mission of bringing biblical stories to life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome, I'm so pleased you're here.
Bleeding Daylight is on social media platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky and others.
(00:28):
Links are at bleedingdaylight.net, where you'll also find dozens of other episodes.
It used to be that quality media creation was something only available to very few.
The costs and expertise involved made it unattainable for most.
Now, the tools to create amazing amounts of content are in our hands.
(00:51):
Today's guest is making the most of the changing media landscape.
Today, I'm joined by Craig Dehut, co-founder of Appian Media.
Since 2015, Craig and his team have been on a mission to bring biblical locations and stories to life through stunning cinematography and meticulous attention to historical accuracy.
(01:20):
With many years of experience in video production, Craig has helped lead Appian Media to reach millions worldwide through their award-winning series, podcasts and educational content.
Craig, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thanks for having me.
Can you give me a bit of a snapshot of some of the projects that your media company has been able to bring to life?
(01:42):
Sure.
In 2016, we began a series that we call Following the Messiah, and that involved two trips to Israel, two years in a row, to create a 10-episode series that follows Jesus from birth in Bethlehem to his death and resurrection in Jerusalem.
That has become our easily most recognizable series.
(02:04):
Following that, we did a series back in Israel called Searching for a King, and that followed the first kings of the nation of Israel, King Saul and David and Solomon.
And that one delved into much more into the biblical archaeology.
Can we trust the biblical text?
Is there evidence for those things?
We then changed countries and did a series on the seven churches of Revelation.
(02:27):
So those are in modern-day Turkey.
We call that Trial and Triumph.
That was a joy.
We also visited several other places around the world and interviewed Christians who are encountering similar challenges as to the things described in Revelation.
Just this spring, we released a series called Out of Egypt.
That involved the story of the Exodus.
(02:48):
We visited Egypt and Jordan and tracked a potential route that the Israelites could have taken as they came out of Egypt into the promised land of Canaan.
We've also done some children's series using similar material from some of those same trips, but written more for preschool-level kids.
(03:08):
Podcasts and other web series.
So yeah, we've been blessed to have created quite a bit of content since 2016.
And on one hand, you have an almost endless list of stories that you could tell from the Bible.
Yet, at the same time, you're dealing with words that Jesus followers would say, God inspired, God breathed.
Do you feel a tension in doing justice to the intent of those stories?
(03:33):
Yes, that is always the challenge.
We do understand.
In fact, one of our team members, Barry, will say there aren't five or ten stories that we could tell with Appian Media.
There's about 500 stories that we could do.
But you are absolutely right.
It's a challenge.
We want to make sure that we aren't just creating for entertainment's sake, that we are adequately representing the word to the best of our limited abilities.
(03:58):
That takes a lot of time and a lot of prayerful consideration as we write the stories and as we edit them together, trying as best we can to represent the source material.
Certainly, when we look back at cinema and how stories from the Scripture have been portrayed, there's a fair bit of creative license that people have taken, putting words into people's mouths.
(04:20):
I guess it's a matter of saying we don't want to go down that track.
But of course, with not every element that is recorded in Scripture, as you were saying, talking about the trip out of Egypt, you had to say this is one of the possible ways that it could have gone rather than just say this is definitely what happened.
Yes, we do understand.
(04:41):
Ours is more of a documentary style.
Unlike projects like The Chosen or other narrative feature films that you would see in theaters, we aren't writing scripts for actors to portray biblical characters.
Not to say that we would never do that, but at least at this point, we're not having to consider what would Jesus say in this moment.
(05:02):
These are real individuals going to the real places and talking to individuals.
But even then, we have to speculate at times.
You read the Gospels, and there's just large chunks of time that we aren't given information.
I wonder what happened between the time that Jesus was 12 to a grown man beginning his ministry.
(05:23):
We do allow for some speculation.
We do allow for us to consider what might be.
But we're always very careful, even with the locations, to say, we know definitively most of the time we can have strong evidence for a location or strong evidence for a particular event happening in that area.
But we always just want to be careful.
(05:44):
We're human.
We want to make sure that if there's any question, go back to the Word.
It's going to give you the information that you need.
It seems like a very lofty goal that you have.
What was it that actually sparked the idea to put this media company together and go out and do some of these amazing projects?
It was a desire for something that we wished we could find, which was at the time, specifically, Stuart Peck, our other co-founder, was teaching a Bible class at the time, specifically for high school students.
(06:16):
He's like, I'm having trouble engaging these kids.
They're coming into class, and we're telling them to put away all their media, put away their phones, even though that's how most of them are learning during the day.
And we're saying, we've got these maps that we can show you, and we've got the Word, and the Word is important, and the Word is essential.
But he's like, I'm trying to engage them using the media.
(06:38):
At the time, Stuart was working as a field producer, and he just couldn't find what he was looking for online.
Video that was well-made, with high production value that would keep the kids' attention, video that was biblically accurate and historically accurate, and then free.
Stuart was like, I just want to go on YouTube and find something that meets these criteria so that I can show five minutes of it in my Bible class.
(07:02):
And we talked about it for a good bit, met several times, and finally it was Stuart who was like, how hard could it possibly be for us to go over there and make it ourselves?
Thankfully, we didn't know the actual answer to that question.
We would have talked ourselves out of it, but we did.
We got a team of about six or seven of us together and launched a Kickstarter campaign, actually, for that first project.
(07:25):
Took a trip to Israel the following year to start following Messiah.
And now we can, and we do, use that content in our Bible classes, in our home Bible studies with our kids in small groups, and not just for high schoolers.
We were finding people of all ages, young and old, who appreciate seeing the visuals of the text.
(07:46):
And that's been exciting, especially to hear from teachers who were saying, my kids just were not tracking with me, but I can show a five-minute piece of video and I've got their attention, and now we're reading the book and they understand this is what that place looks like.
This is what that meant when they walked from this place to this place.
This is what a storm on the Sea of Galilee would have been.
(08:07):
It's thrilling to hear stories like that.
In a lot of historical documentaries, we see the facts as they were.
We get presented with this is what happened at the time, and we can look back, and that can inform us for today of this is how things happened back then.
The uniqueness of telling biblical stories is, of course, that you not only tell the historical story, but you get to introduce people to the central character of those stories in Jesus.
(08:39):
And I guess that's something that is just really empowering for you as a filmmaker.
Absolutely.
There have been people who have come to us and said, I binge-watched all your content.
That's great.
It's getting harder for people to do that.
You'd have to commit about a day.
But our goal isn't really to get them to binge-watch the content.
(09:00):
It's for, just as you said, for them to be introduced to the central character.
We want them to grow closer to God and to grow closer to God's Son.
We want them to appreciate and to love and to follow Jesus.
We believe, and we've seen it, where they can consume the content, get back into the word, and re-engage is a word that we use a lot.
(09:20):
Re-engage their imaginations as they're reading the text, because we want them to know Jesus better, and we want them to allow Him to change them.
And we think our videos and our media can do that.
I'm interested in some of the responses that you've had, because I do know that in some areas of the Church there has been this tendency to think, well, we can't fully trust the Bible, but we want the intent of it rather than what's in there.
(09:47):
Have you found people that have actually watched some of the content and suddenly come to the realization, this is real?
What is written in those pages wasn't just a made-up story to illustrate something, but these things actually happened.
Yeah, and that is a great question.
Obviously, most of the people watching our content are people who already, to some degree, believe the Bible or believe in God.
(10:10):
We also find that people who would consider themselves agnostic or even atheist would watch this content.
Maybe they're just interested in travel.
Maybe they're just interested in history of the Middle East.
But our content has had that effect, and we hear people use words like reliable and relevant, that when the Bible mentions this city was next to this city, and for 200 years they looked and looked and no one could find, but lo and behold, there's evidence that that city is exactly where the Bible says.
(10:44):
It helps reinforce the trust they have in some of the more substantial parts of the Bible.
Jesus really did raise from the dead, and there's evidence to that in the culture and in the history of that time.
It's so encouraging to hear people.
Growing up reading the Bible, I grew up in a family that believed in God.
(11:05):
I was taught it from a young age, and I can understand the tendency of some to treat it like a story, like a children's story.
Once upon a time, there was a man named Jesus in a land far away.
Our hope is that as they watch this content, and as they consume more stuff like this, that they realize, no, it's a real land, and he was a real person, and these events really did happen.
(11:29):
This was something that struck us.
I had never traveled to Israel prior to us doing something like this.
It is astonishing to me how the vast majority of the people, at least that we interacted with over there, do not deny the historical account that a man named Jesus lived in the first century.
Now, they will disagree over who he really was and what he really taught, but rarely will they attempt to deny that he actually existed, because the evidence over there is so profound and so obvious.
(12:02):
It is more of a tendency, at least those of us here in America or in other countries, where they kind of disregard that out of hand.
He's probably like a legend that grew over time.
Well, no.
You go to the land, you talk to the people, and you look at their history.
Very few people deny it.
Now let's talk about was he actually who he said he was.
(12:23):
That's what our series attempted to do.
You already went to these other lands with the idea that there's an authenticity to it and that these are actually true facts, but was there something that even clicked in you once you got there?
Was there some kind of even a spiritual experience of actually walking those paths where Jesus would have walked or where some of those other stories in Scripture actually happened?
(12:50):
Yes.
I'd say it happens multiple times each trip.
While most of the time we can say, here's the general area, rarely can we say, Jesus was right here.
Yet there are a couple of areas where you can say, look, Jesus was a Jewish man.
(13:11):
He went up to the temple multiple times a year to sacrifice, and we can be fairly confident here that these are steps he would have taken up to get up onto Temple Mount.
I remember, and I actually shot a video.
I just grabbed my cell phone and shot a video while I was kind of feeling this.
Jesus walked on these steps.
(13:31):
He was here.
What would that have meant?
Not only was he here as an adult during his ministry, but he was here as a child going with his parents, getting lost in Jerusalem.
You have these moments.
I remember standing outside of Jericho.
There's no denying they absolutely know where that city was.
It's actually one of the longest, if not the longest, perpetually inhabited cities in history.
(13:55):
You see the walls.
You know where the city was contained.
Then you talk about this is obviously predating Jesus, but Joshua and the walls of Jericho.
To stand outside that city and go, this is where God did that.
This is where the people did this ridiculous thing and walked around the walls and ended up capturing the city.
(14:16):
Then the challenge for us is I'm feeling this in this moment.
How do we somehow bottle that up, capture that in video, and try to bring that back to people who may not be able to walk those steps themselves, but we're trying to get them to share that same feeling and that same understanding with what we produce?
(14:38):
I love the fact you mentioned there that you pulled out your cell phone and started just taking video.
I'm very aware that while what you're doing is of the highest level
and you're wanting to create something that is excellent in quality
and there's absolutely a place for that,
we've never been in a time before where there's more access for people to use creative media in various ways,
(15:04):
whether that be the sort of equipment that you're using to present something beautifully filmed,
beautifully shot, beautifully presented, right down to someone doing something on their cell phone.
Do you think that Christians have fully understood the opportunity that lies there in the use of creative media?
I'm trying to help them understand it.
(15:26):
It is wild.
I graduated from film school back in 2007.
Back then, we were excited about the fact that our phones could take photos.
And they were bad photos.
But none of us even dreamed that you could record video on it.
Well, now the phones that we're using, we're recording 4K or higher.
(15:48):
There are apps that you can edit right in the phone, which for someone who started editing with two VCRs, it's mind boggling to me.
And it's true, we do take professional gear over there and make sure that we're shooting as high quality production value as we can.
But in our latest project out of Egypt, there were moments where they would not allow us to bring our large cameras in.
(16:12):
It was just going to cause too much of a ruckus.
And so we brought in phones.
And we hooked up a microphone to the phones.
There are moments where, look, this moment is happening, and we're just going to capture it.
And if that's on a phone or GoPro or whatever we've got, it got incorporated into the final piece.
And so trying to encourage Christians, anyone interested in pursuing this field, I do a lot of training and teaching, especially high school and college age.
(16:40):
And I have a series of courses about digital storytelling using just a phone.
And the types of things that we are able to create now, shooting and editing with nothing but a phone, there really is no more excuse.
I do understand 20 or 30 years ago, people wanted to create content for Christ and help people strengthen their faith.
(17:02):
They didn't have access.
The gear that you had to use to create something like that was expensive.
Hollywood controlled most of it.
And now you pull it out of your pocket and create what you can.
And eventually upgrade to something more and upgrade to something more.
The tools are now accessible.
They're affordable, readily available.
(17:23):
And I'm a strong advocate of encouraging people to use what they have and tell the stories.
There's a lot of value in studying the Scripture, going through verse by verse and pulling out what's in there because there's such a richness.
But sometimes we do forget the fact that the Scripture is made up of a story.
And there's a story of Jesus from day one right through.
(17:45):
It's woven throughout.
So there is story in there and smaller stories within, even the way that Jesus would tell parables to get a point across.
And I guess what you're doing is just doing a very similar thing in using what's available to us now in telling stories.
So while a story used to be told in one way, people are used to hearing stories in a very different way.
(18:09):
Do you think we have fully embraced that yet and understood that this is a tool that can be used to bring people to Jesus?
I hope that we do, and I have been so encouraged, especially since coming out of film school.
You know, it's been almost a couple of decades now where at least the circles that I was in, we used to kind of think, I've got to make a major motion picture for theatrical release.
(18:34):
That's how I'm going to make a faith-based film.
I'm old enough to remember, because again, this hadn't occurred until near the time I was coming out of school, but like YouTube is not that old.
YouTube hasn't been around for that long.
And so we weren't in a habit of creating videos of smaller lengths and putting them on the internet.
(18:55):
You either got theatrical release or a home video, or you got it on television.
And now, yes, we have created some feature length documentaries, but most of our content we break up into smaller pieces.
I'm even having to, and I guess this makes me an old man, I'm not sure yet, but embrace the vertical video and the short form.
(19:17):
Sometimes a story can be told in 60 seconds or 90 seconds, and it's shot this way instead of this way.
I still struggle with that a little bit.
But the point is, there are a variety of ways that people learn.
There are a variety of ways that people consume information and want to learn new things.
(19:38):
We are trying to embrace as many of those as we can that fits into our mission.
It is an encouraging thing to see people consume it and learn things, even if it's just, hey, I've got your attention for just a couple of minutes while you're scrolling through the rest of your feed, or maybe I've got you in a theater and you are watching a feature length.
However we can get you invested in the overarching story of the Bible, that's what we're out to do.
(20:05):
What has most surprised you?
In projects that you've been putting together, what was the thing that you least expected that came out of the blue that just amazed you?
Multiple times a trip.
There are things where you do a lot of planning.
We do months and months of planning.
We've got a fixer on the ground, someone local who's securing film permits, and we've got schedules and tight schedules, and yet there's always moments where it's like, we didn't plan this, but this thing is happening.
(20:35):
Let's capture that.
Sometimes it's as simple as we were driving away from a handmade brick-making business out in rural Egypt, and we had done a scene where we're making bricks, and as we're driving away, we spot a family.
They're baking bread in this handcrafted oven that they've made, and we just, hey, we've got 30 minutes.
(21:00):
Let's stop.
Let's talk to these people.
Let's shoot a quick scene, make sure obviously it's okay with them, and just capturing those moments as they happen.
There have been events like when we were in Israel and shooting.
In Bethlehem, there is what's called the Church of the Nativity, and in the basement of that church is a place that's very likely where Jesus was born, and you can't see the cave anymore.
(21:24):
It's a structure.
You're in a building in a basement, and it is normally hundreds of people are kind of waiting in line to go down into that basement, and they spend a couple of minutes praying and worshiping, and then they come up again.
We had permission to shoot a scene there, but we had no idea how we were going to pull that off.
Our guide was able to talk to enough people and work things out where they said they're going to do some cleaning down here, and then there's going to be a five-minute break, and we will hold the crowds back for you, and you've got five minutes down in that basement.
(21:54):
That was fantastic.
By the time we were done, there were at least 100 people waiting for us to finish that started to actually pour in there while we were still shooting.
Just events like that where people are so gracious and kind and usually very accommodating, and we're always surprised with the extra things that we're allowed to capture.
We just have to be ready for them when they do.
(22:15):
Of course, it's not just going back to the original locations of stories, but actually starting to get into the mindset of perhaps the culture and of the original hearers of Scripture that helps us unlock some of the things that previously we've read in one way, and suddenly we can understand in a very different way.
(22:36):
Have there been times where that's even happened to you, that you've gone expecting one thing and found, actually, the original hearers would have seen this Scripture very differently?
Yes, absolutely.
That is one of our main goals.
We're trying to catch modern readers up, the original recipients, especially when you consider the Gospels.
(22:57):
They would have understood the language, they would have known the geography, and they would have understood the history and the culture at that time.
Most of us don't.
We have to be taught it.
We've got to be caught back up.
What was it like to live under Roman occupation?
What was it like to fish on the Sea of Galilee?
I'd say that's a great example of me.
(23:17):
When I say the sea, I think it's another word for the ocean.
Most of the time it is, but not with the Sea of Galilee.
It's a large lake.
In fact, compared to some here in the U.S., it's a small lake.
It is a small enough body of water that on most days you can absolutely stand on one side and clearly see the entirety of this lake.
(23:39):
It absolutely changed the way I envisioned the storm on the Sea of Galilee.
Can you imagine?
You're stuck in that boat, you're stuck in that storm, and on a clear day you'd be able to see every shoreline.
But now you're in the midst of a storm, and you can't get there.
The apostles could not get there.
(24:00):
We were able to take a boat out on that body of water.
You've got to do that any time you go to Israel.
You can sit on that boat, and you can say there's Capernaum over there.
I can see this site over there.
There's the land of the Gerasenes over there.
You can see it all from one vantage point, which is just incredible and very different than what I had formulated in my mind.
(24:23):
You've mentioned a range of different things that are going on, such as the fact that it used to be, if you were going to create a film, it would be something that you would watch in the cinema these days.
Perhaps not so much that you can create different sorts of content.
Even the fact that with a phone that we can take that and turn it the wrong way, many of us would believe, and shoot video that way.
(24:48):
I'm wondering, have you thought of, what is the future of faith-based media?
If these are the things that are happening now, where do you see the future of all of this?
It's an exciting thing to consider, because all I have to do is think back 20 years ago, what were we thinking about?
Most of us were not thinking about anything like this.
(25:08):
When I think of the future, I'm already very interested in 360 degree video.
There are cameras that can actually capture in all directions.
You would use that type of camera for mostly VR or AR.
While we have not yet produced anything exclusively for that, I'm excited to consider the possibility where people could put that on and surround themselves with and actually walk in among a space.
(25:40):
That technology isn't there yet.
You shoot a 360 degree camera and you still are at the mercy of the camera operator.
You're only going to be able to look around from where that camera is, but how could you, and maybe this is through photogrammetry or other things, how can you create the space in VR and just let the people walk around?
(26:04):
We did that a little bit when we visited Capernaum one year and I took a 360 camera, kind of put it up on a selfie stick and walked around with it.
It's on our YouTube channel.
You could pull your phone out and you can look around, which is neat, but I'm excited for can you create an actual environment of the whole space, perhaps even have individuals in various spots that will talk to you and tell you about what you're looking for.
(26:32):
Basically create a digital tour of the space.
That would be exciting and then that would even lend itself towards potentially even recreating biblical events.
There are exciting slash terrifying things that are happening with AI and things that you can generate out of just text prompts, which is interesting.
(26:53):
We haven't really delved much into that.
I'm excited for the tools that are being developed.
The Bible is a book that should ignite visuals in our mind.
Our imagination should become engaged.
The types of tools that we can use to help with that, honestly, I can only guess what 20 years from now will look like.
(27:14):
I can imagine that there will be some people that are listening at the moment who they have had their imagination sparked and they think this could be amazing.
We know that sometimes the church is left behind when technology moves on, but we have the opportunity to be right at the forefront of it at the moment.
What would you say to someone who has had their imagination sparked by this conversation and thinks, I need to be there because this is a way to lead even more people to Jesus?
(27:44):
My encouragement to people who are thinking of using media in some kind to evangelize, we call it digital evangelism, just get started.
Don't think it has to be a feature-length documentary, and that's what I'm going to work towards.
Start with something small.
Maybe it's starting with the phone you've got in your pocket, and tell a story.
(28:06):
Tell it well.
Make sure it's well-researched and informative and helpful and biblical.
And those first few projects probably aren't going to be great.
They're just not, and that's the nature of the thing.
But you learn from each one.
You try again.
You learn some more.
You work with people who are farther along that path than you are, and just get creating.
(28:28):
I think for many, many years, Christians have just been afraid to get started because they look in the industry and they're like, that's so well done.
I don't have that kind of skill set.
And so we talk ourselves out of doing anything at all.
And I don't think that ought to be.
Hollywood, on the whole, does some high-quality stuff, but you look at the first 30 or 40 years of what Hollywood did, and it's terrible.
(28:54):
But they were learning and experimenting and honing the craft and inventing the craft.
We shouldn't be upset if it's going to take a few years for us to figure out how to use it.
Nowadays, I hate to even say this, because I had to pay these student loans off, but film school is almost unnecessary to some degree where there's so much that we can learn online.
(29:18):
There's so many tools and resources and people that we can connect with, even live sessions with industry professionals online, that you can learn the craft and learn the tools and just get creating.
Partner yourselves with other people who are in the space doing it and get started.
That's really how Appian Media began and we're excited to continue.
(29:38):
And it does sound like there's some great content for people to view and to consider that you have.
Where is the easiest place for people to find your content and find out more about what you are doing?
Probably the easiest place is just to go to appianmedia.org appianmedia.org or you can look up Appian Media on YouTube.
(30:01):
We've got a growing channel there and we're excited that all of the content that we produce, from the major series to the podcasts that we do to even a bunch of behind the scenes are available for free right there on our channel.
That's a goal of ours to make our content as readily available as we can and so we look for other distributing partners.
(30:23):
We want that content to be where people are looking for content.
Those are the two main sources but you'll you'll find them in a variety of others.
I guess that also begs the question, I know that you said that for your first project it was a bit of a Kickstarter thing and getting people behind it.
How are you funding this?
If you're making all this content available free of charge, it's not cheap to travel with good gear and then putting everything together at the end of it as well which is a massive project.
(30:51):
How are you funding this at the moment?
Appian Media is a non-profit organization and that began in year one.
We very quickly realized that there were enough people interested in this type of content that they were willing to financially support it on the front end and so that has been our goal that it's really just individuals that believe in the mission and want more of this content and so we will do fundraising events.
(31:18):
You can learn more about this on our website but over the course of most years people just donate on a monthly basis or on a one-time basis either towards a specific project or just towards the mission in general.
I talked to fellow professionals who are seeking investment and funding and hoping that that theatrical release pays off all their investors.
(31:40):
Ours is a very different model where we raise the vast majority of the funds on the front end, take the trip, do the production and then yes it is about an eight to ten sometimes twelve month period of post-production.
I do a good bit of that as the principal editor but there are other people involved in the writing and in the coloring and sound and that's all primarily paid for through donations.
(32:04):
Obviously now through ad revenue, through YouTube and other distributing partners and through the sell of workbooks.
We do produce these high-quality printed workbooks that have QR codes throughout each lesson where people can scan and get the video associated with that lesson.
A variety of wells to draw from and it's our mission to continue to make it available for free.
(32:26):
And the thing that excites me about that is if someone has been listening and their imagination has been sparked but they still say I will never be someone that is behind a camera or editing or any of those things, I wish there was a way to be involved.
There obviously is.
If you see a value in what's going on here and obviously it is very valuable then there's a way that people can contribute and see more of this produced.
(32:53):
And I will pop a link in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can both find your content but also find ways to support what it is that you're doing.
So Craig I just want to say thanks it's been a fascinating conversation and I'm sure that there's going to be many people that are going to be interested in in where the journey goes from here but thank you for your time on Bleeding Daylight.
(33:17):
Oh thank you so much for having me it's been a joy.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes please visit bleedingdaylight.net
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome, I'm so pleased you're here.
Bleeding Daylight is on social media platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky and others.
(00:28):
Links are at bleedingdaylight.net, where you'll also find dozens of other episodes.
It used to be that quality media creation was something only available to very few.
The costs and expertise involved made it unattainable for most.
Now, the tools to create amazing amounts of content are in our hands.
(00:51):
Today's guest is making the most of the changing media landscape.
Today, I'm joined by Craig Dehut, co-founder of Appian Media.
Since 2015, Craig and his team have been on a mission to bring biblical locations and stories to life through stunning cinematography and meticulous attention to historical accuracy.
(01:20):
With many years of experience in video production, Craig has helped lead Appian Media to reach millions worldwide through their award-winning series, podcasts and educational content.
Craig, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thanks for having me.
Can you give me a bit of a snapshot of some of the projects that your media company has been able to bring to life?
(01:42):
Sure.
In 2016, we began a series that we call Following the Messiah, and that involved two trips to Israel, two years in a row, to create a 10-episode series that follows Jesus from birth in Bethlehem to his death and resurrection in Jerusalem.
That has become our easily most recognizable series.
(02:04):
Following that, we did a series back in Israel called Searching for a King, and that followed the first kings of the nation of Israel, King Saul and David and Solomon.
And that one delved into much more into the biblical archaeology.
Can we trust the biblical text?
Is there evidence for those things?
We then changed countries and did a series on the seven churches of Revelation.
(02:27):
So those are in modern-day Turkey.
We call that Trial and Triumph.
That was a joy.
We also visited several other places around the world and interviewed Christians who are encountering similar challenges as to the things described in Revelation.
Just this spring, we released a series called Out of Egypt.
That involved the story of the Exodus.
(02:48):
We visited Egypt and Jordan and tracked a potential route that the Israelites could have taken as they came out of Egypt into the promised land of Canaan.
We've also done some children's series using similar material from some of those same trips, but written more for preschool-level kids.
(03:08):
Podcasts and other web series.
So yeah, we've been blessed to have created quite a bit of content since 2016.
And on one hand, you have an almost endless list of stories that you could tell from the Bible.
Yet, at the same time, you're dealing with words that Jesus followers would say, God inspired, God breathed.
Do you feel a tension in doing justice to the intent of those stories?
(03:33):
Yes, that is always the challenge.
We do understand.
In fact, one of our team members, Barry, will say there aren't five or ten stories that we could tell with Appian Media.
There's about 500 stories that we could do.
But you are absolutely right.
It's a challenge.
We want to make sure that we aren't just creating for entertainment's sake, that we are adequately representing the word to the best of our limited abilities.
(03:58):
That takes a lot of time and a lot of prayerful consideration as we write the stories and as we edit them together, trying as best we can to represent the source material.
Certainly, when we look back at cinema and how stories from the Scripture have been portrayed, there's a fair bit of creative license that people have taken, putting words into people's mouths.
(04:20):
I guess it's a matter of saying we don't want to go down that track.
But of course, with not every element that is recorded in Scripture, as you were saying, talking about the trip out of Egypt, you had to say this is one of the possible ways that it could have gone rather than just say this is definitely what happened.
Yes, we do understand.
(04:41):
Ours is more of a documentary style.
Unlike projects like The Chosen or other narrative feature films that you would see in theaters, we aren't writing scripts for actors to portray biblical characters.
Not to say that we would never do that, but at least at this point, we're not having to consider what would Jesus say in this moment.
(05:02):
These are real individuals going to the real places and talking to individuals.
But even then, we have to speculate at times.
You read the Gospels, and there's just large chunks of time that we aren't given information.
I wonder what happened between the time that Jesus was 12 to a grown man beginning his ministry.
(05:23):
We do allow for some speculation.
We do allow for us to consider what might be.
But we're always very careful, even with the locations, to say, we know definitively most of the time we can have strong evidence for a location or strong evidence for a particular event happening in that area.
But we always just want to be careful.
(05:44):
We're human.
We want to make sure that if there's any question, go back to the Word.
It's going to give you the information that you need.
It seems like a very lofty goal that you have.
What was it that actually sparked the idea to put this media company together and go out and do some of these amazing projects?
It was a desire for something that we wished we could find, which was at the time, specifically, Stuart Peck, our other co-founder, was teaching a Bible class at the time, specifically for high school students.
(06:16):
He's like, I'm having trouble engaging these kids.
They're coming into class, and we're telling them to put away all their media, put away their phones, even though that's how most of them are learning during the day.
And we're saying, we've got these maps that we can show you, and we've got the Word, and the Word is important, and the Word is essential.
But he's like, I'm trying to engage them using the media.
(06:38):
At the time, Stuart was working as a field producer, and he just couldn't find what he was looking for online.
Video that was well-made, with high production value that would keep the kids' attention, video that was biblically accurate and historically accurate, and then free.
Stuart was like, I just want to go on YouTube and find something that meets these criteria so that I can show five minutes of it in my Bible class.
(07:02):
And we talked about it for a good bit, met several times, and finally it was Stuart who was like, how hard could it possibly be for us to go over there and make it ourselves?
Thankfully, we didn't know the actual answer to that question.
We would have talked ourselves out of it, but we did.
We got a team of about six or seven of us together and launched a Kickstarter campaign, actually, for that first project.
(07:25):
Took a trip to Israel the following year to start following Messiah.
And now we can, and we do, use that content in our Bible classes, in our home Bible studies with our kids in small groups, and not just for high schoolers.
We were finding people of all ages, young and old, who appreciate seeing the visuals of the text.
(07:46):
And that's been exciting, especially to hear from teachers who were saying, my kids just were not tracking with me, but I can show a five-minute piece of video and I've got their attention, and now we're reading the book and they understand this is what that place looks like.
This is what that meant when they walked from this place to this place.
This is what a storm on the Sea of Galilee would have been.
(08:07):
It's thrilling to hear stories like that.
In a lot of historical documentaries, we see the facts as they were.
We get presented with this is what happened at the time, and we can look back, and that can inform us for today of this is how things happened back then.
The uniqueness of telling biblical stories is, of course, that you not only tell the historical story, but you get to introduce people to the central character of those stories in Jesus.
(08:39):
And I guess that's something that is just really empowering for you as a filmmaker.
Absolutely.
There have been people who have come to us and said, I binge-watched all your content.
That's great.
It's getting harder for people to do that.
You'd have to commit about a day.
But our goal isn't really to get them to binge-watch the content.
(09:00):
It's for, just as you said, for them to be introduced to the central character.
We want them to grow closer to God and to grow closer to God's Son.
We want them to appreciate and to love and to follow Jesus.
We believe, and we've seen it, where they can consume the content, get back into the word, and re-engage is a word that we use a lot.
(09:20):
Re-engage their imaginations as they're reading the text, because we want them to know Jesus better, and we want them to allow Him to change them.
And we think our videos and our media can do that.
I'm interested in some of the responses that you've had, because I do know that in some areas of the Church there has been this tendency to think, well, we can't fully trust the Bible, but we want the intent of it rather than what's in there.
(09:47):
Have you found people that have actually watched some of the content and suddenly come to the realization, this is real?
What is written in those pages wasn't just a made-up story to illustrate something, but these things actually happened.
Yeah, and that is a great question.
Obviously, most of the people watching our content are people who already, to some degree, believe the Bible or believe in God.
(10:10):
We also find that people who would consider themselves agnostic or even atheist would watch this content.
Maybe they're just interested in travel.
Maybe they're just interested in history of the Middle East.
But our content has had that effect, and we hear people use words like reliable and relevant, that when the Bible mentions this city was next to this city, and for 200 years they looked and looked and no one could find, but lo and behold, there's evidence that that city is exactly where the Bible says.
(10:44):
It helps reinforce the trust they have in some of the more substantial parts of the Bible.
Jesus really did raise from the dead, and there's evidence to that in the culture and in the history of that time.
It's so encouraging to hear people.
Growing up reading the Bible, I grew up in a family that believed in God.
(11:05):
I was taught it from a young age, and I can understand the tendency of some to treat it like a story, like a children's story.
Once upon a time, there was a man named Jesus in a land far away.
Our hope is that as they watch this content, and as they consume more stuff like this, that they realize, no, it's a real land, and he was a real person, and these events really did happen.
(11:29):
This was something that struck us.
I had never traveled to Israel prior to us doing something like this.
It is astonishing to me how the vast majority of the people, at least that we interacted with over there, do not deny the historical account that a man named Jesus lived in the first century.
Now, they will disagree over who he really was and what he really taught, but rarely will they attempt to deny that he actually existed, because the evidence over there is so profound and so obvious.
(12:02):
It is more of a tendency, at least those of us here in America or in other countries, where they kind of disregard that out of hand.
He's probably like a legend that grew over time.
Well, no.
You go to the land, you talk to the people, and you look at their history.
Very few people deny it.
Now let's talk about was he actually who he said he was.
(12:23):
That's what our series attempted to do.
You already went to these other lands with the idea that there's an authenticity to it and that these are actually true facts, but was there something that even clicked in you once you got there?
Was there some kind of even a spiritual experience of actually walking those paths where Jesus would have walked or where some of those other stories in Scripture actually happened?
(12:50):
Yes.
I'd say it happens multiple times each trip.
While most of the time we can say, here's the general area, rarely can we say, Jesus was right here.
Yet there are a couple of areas where you can say, look, Jesus was a Jewish man.
(13:11):
He went up to the temple multiple times a year to sacrifice, and we can be fairly confident here that these are steps he would have taken up to get up onto Temple Mount.
I remember, and I actually shot a video.
I just grabbed my cell phone and shot a video while I was kind of feeling this.
Jesus walked on these steps.
(13:31):
He was here.
What would that have meant?
Not only was he here as an adult during his ministry, but he was here as a child going with his parents, getting lost in Jerusalem.
You have these moments.
I remember standing outside of Jericho.
There's no denying they absolutely know where that city was.
It's actually one of the longest, if not the longest, perpetually inhabited cities in history.
(13:55):
You see the walls.
You know where the city was contained.
Then you talk about this is obviously predating Jesus, but Joshua and the walls of Jericho.
To stand outside that city and go, this is where God did that.
This is where the people did this ridiculous thing and walked around the walls and ended up capturing the city.
(14:16):
Then the challenge for us is I'm feeling this in this moment.
How do we somehow bottle that up, capture that in video, and try to bring that back to people who may not be able to walk those steps themselves, but we're trying to get them to share that same feeling and that same understanding with what we produce?
(14:38):
I love the fact you mentioned there that you pulled out your cell phone and started just taking video.
I'm very aware that while what you're doing is of the highest level
and you're wanting to create something that is excellent in quality
and there's absolutely a place for that,
we've never been in a time before where there's more access for people to use creative media in various ways,
(15:04):
whether that be the sort of equipment that you're using to present something beautifully filmed,
beautifully shot, beautifully presented, right down to someone doing something on their cell phone.
Do you think that Christians have fully understood the opportunity that lies there in the use of creative media?
I'm trying to help them understand it.
(15:26):
It is wild.
I graduated from film school back in 2007.
Back then, we were excited about the fact that our phones could take photos.
And they were bad photos.
But none of us even dreamed that you could record video on it.
Well, now the phones that we're using, we're recording 4K or higher.
(15:48):
There are apps that you can edit right in the phone, which for someone who started editing with two VCRs, it's mind boggling to me.
And it's true, we do take professional gear over there and make sure that we're shooting as high quality production value as we can.
But in our latest project out of Egypt, there were moments where they would not allow us to bring our large cameras in.
(16:12):
It was just going to cause too much of a ruckus.
And so we brought in phones.
And we hooked up a microphone to the phones.
There are moments where, look, this moment is happening, and we're just going to capture it.
And if that's on a phone or GoPro or whatever we've got, it got incorporated into the final piece.
And so trying to encourage Christians, anyone interested in pursuing this field, I do a lot of training and teaching, especially high school and college age.
(16:40):
And I have a series of courses about digital storytelling using just a phone.
And the types of things that we are able to create now, shooting and editing with nothing but a phone, there really is no more excuse.
I do understand 20 or 30 years ago, people wanted to create content for Christ and help people strengthen their faith.
(17:02):
They didn't have access.
The gear that you had to use to create something like that was expensive.
Hollywood controlled most of it.
And now you pull it out of your pocket and create what you can.
And eventually upgrade to something more and upgrade to something more.
The tools are now accessible.
They're affordable, readily available.
(17:23):
And I'm a strong advocate of encouraging people to use what they have and tell the stories.
There's a lot of value in studying the Scripture, going through verse by verse and pulling out what's in there because there's such a richness.
But sometimes we do forget the fact that the Scripture is made up of a story.
And there's a story of Jesus from day one right through.
(17:45):
It's woven throughout.
So there is story in there and smaller stories within, even the way that Jesus would tell parables to get a point across.
And I guess what you're doing is just doing a very similar thing in using what's available to us now in telling stories.
So while a story used to be told in one way, people are used to hearing stories in a very different way.
(18:09):
Do you think we have fully embraced that yet and understood that this is a tool that can be used to bring people to Jesus?
I hope that we do, and I have been so encouraged, especially since coming out of film school.
You know, it's been almost a couple of decades now where at least the circles that I was in, we used to kind of think, I've got to make a major motion picture for theatrical release.
(18:34):
That's how I'm going to make a faith-based film.
I'm old enough to remember, because again, this hadn't occurred until near the time I was coming out of school, but like YouTube is not that old.
YouTube hasn't been around for that long.
And so we weren't in a habit of creating videos of smaller lengths and putting them on the internet.
(18:55):
You either got theatrical release or a home video, or you got it on television.
And now, yes, we have created some feature length documentaries, but most of our content we break up into smaller pieces.
I'm even having to, and I guess this makes me an old man, I'm not sure yet, but embrace the vertical video and the short form.
(19:17):
Sometimes a story can be told in 60 seconds or 90 seconds, and it's shot this way instead of this way.
I still struggle with that a little bit.
But the point is, there are a variety of ways that people learn.
There are a variety of ways that people consume information and want to learn new things.
(19:38):
We are trying to embrace as many of those as we can that fits into our mission.
It is an encouraging thing to see people consume it and learn things, even if it's just, hey, I've got your attention for just a couple of minutes while you're scrolling through the rest of your feed, or maybe I've got you in a theater and you are watching a feature length.
However we can get you invested in the overarching story of the Bible, that's what we're out to do.
(20:05):
What has most surprised you?
In projects that you've been putting together, what was the thing that you least expected that came out of the blue that just amazed you?
Multiple times a trip.
There are things where you do a lot of planning.
We do months and months of planning.
We've got a fixer on the ground, someone local who's securing film permits, and we've got schedules and tight schedules, and yet there's always moments where it's like, we didn't plan this, but this thing is happening.
(20:35):
Let's capture that.
Sometimes it's as simple as we were driving away from a handmade brick-making business out in rural Egypt, and we had done a scene where we're making bricks, and as we're driving away, we spot a family.
They're baking bread in this handcrafted oven that they've made, and we just, hey, we've got 30 minutes.
(21:00):
Let's stop.
Let's talk to these people.
Let's shoot a quick scene, make sure obviously it's okay with them, and just capturing those moments as they happen.
There have been events like when we were in Israel and shooting.
In Bethlehem, there is what's called the Church of the Nativity, and in the basement of that church is a place that's very likely where Jesus was born, and you can't see the cave anymore.
(21:24):
It's a structure.
You're in a building in a basement, and it is normally hundreds of people are kind of waiting in line to go down into that basement, and they spend a couple of minutes praying and worshiping, and then they come up again.
We had permission to shoot a scene there, but we had no idea how we were going to pull that off.
Our guide was able to talk to enough people and work things out where they said they're going to do some cleaning down here, and then there's going to be a five-minute break, and we will hold the crowds back for you, and you've got five minutes down in that basement.
(21:54):
That was fantastic.
By the time we were done, there were at least 100 people waiting for us to finish that started to actually pour in there while we were still shooting.
Just events like that where people are so gracious and kind and usually very accommodating, and we're always surprised with the extra things that we're allowed to capture.
We just have to be ready for them when they do.
(22:15):
Of course, it's not just going back to the original locations of stories, but actually starting to get into the mindset of perhaps the culture and of the original hearers of Scripture that helps us unlock some of the things that previously we've read in one way, and suddenly we can understand in a very different way.
(22:36):
Have there been times where that's even happened to you, that you've gone expecting one thing and found, actually, the original hearers would have seen this Scripture very differently?
Yes, absolutely.
That is one of our main goals.
We're trying to catch modern readers up, the original recipients, especially when you consider the Gospels.
(22:57):
They would have understood the language, they would have known the geography, and they would have understood the history and the culture at that time.
Most of us don't.
We have to be taught it.
We've got to be caught back up.
What was it like to live under Roman occupation?
What was it like to fish on the Sea of Galilee?
I'd say that's a great example of me.
(23:17):
When I say the sea, I think it's another word for the ocean.
Most of the time it is, but not with the Sea of Galilee.
It's a large lake.
In fact, compared to some here in the U.S., it's a small lake.
It is a small enough body of water that on most days you can absolutely stand on one side and clearly see the entirety of this lake.
(23:39):
It absolutely changed the way I envisioned the storm on the Sea of Galilee.
Can you imagine?
You're stuck in that boat, you're stuck in that storm, and on a clear day you'd be able to see every shoreline.
But now you're in the midst of a storm, and you can't get there.
The apostles could not get there.
(24:00):
We were able to take a boat out on that body of water.
You've got to do that any time you go to Israel.
You can sit on that boat, and you can say there's Capernaum over there.
I can see this site over there.
There's the land of the Gerasenes over there.
You can see it all from one vantage point, which is just incredible and very different than what I had formulated in my mind.
(24:23):
You've mentioned a range of different things that are going on, such as the fact that it used to be, if you were going to create a film, it would be something that you would watch in the cinema these days.
Perhaps not so much that you can create different sorts of content.
Even the fact that with a phone that we can take that and turn it the wrong way, many of us would believe, and shoot video that way.
(24:48):
I'm wondering, have you thought of, what is the future of faith-based media?
If these are the things that are happening now, where do you see the future of all of this?
It's an exciting thing to consider, because all I have to do is think back 20 years ago, what were we thinking about?
Most of us were not thinking about anything like this.
(25:08):
When I think of the future, I'm already very interested in 360 degree video.
There are cameras that can actually capture in all directions.
You would use that type of camera for mostly VR or AR.
While we have not yet produced anything exclusively for that, I'm excited to consider the possibility where people could put that on and surround themselves with and actually walk in among a space.
(25:40):
That technology isn't there yet.
You shoot a 360 degree camera and you still are at the mercy of the camera operator.
You're only going to be able to look around from where that camera is, but how could you, and maybe this is through photogrammetry or other things, how can you create the space in VR and just let the people walk around?
(26:04):
We did that a little bit when we visited Capernaum one year and I took a 360 camera, kind of put it up on a selfie stick and walked around with it.
It's on our YouTube channel.
You could pull your phone out and you can look around, which is neat, but I'm excited for can you create an actual environment of the whole space, perhaps even have individuals in various spots that will talk to you and tell you about what you're looking for.
(26:32):
Basically create a digital tour of the space.
That would be exciting and then that would even lend itself towards potentially even recreating biblical events.
There are exciting slash terrifying things that are happening with AI and things that you can generate out of just text prompts, which is interesting.
(26:53):
We haven't really delved much into that.
I'm excited for the tools that are being developed.
The Bible is a book that should ignite visuals in our mind.
Our imagination should become engaged.
The types of tools that we can use to help with that, honestly, I can only guess what 20 years from now will look like.
(27:14):
I can imagine that there will be some people that are listening at the moment who they have had their imagination sparked and they think this could be amazing.
We know that sometimes the church is left behind when technology moves on, but we have the opportunity to be right at the forefront of it at the moment.
What would you say to someone who has had their imagination sparked by this conversation and thinks, I need to be there because this is a way to lead even more people to Jesus?
(27:44):
My encouragement to people who are thinking of using media in some kind to evangelize, we call it digital evangelism, just get started.
Don't think it has to be a feature-length documentary, and that's what I'm going to work towards.
Start with something small.
Maybe it's starting with the phone you've got in your pocket, and tell a story.
(28:06):
Tell it well.
Make sure it's well-researched and informative and helpful and biblical.
And those first few projects probably aren't going to be great.
They're just not, and that's the nature of the thing.
But you learn from each one.
You try again.
You learn some more.
You work with people who are farther along that path than you are, and just get creating.
(28:28):
I think for many, many years, Christians have just been afraid to get started because they look in the industry and they're like, that's so well done.
I don't have that kind of skill set.
And so we talk ourselves out of doing anything at all.
And I don't think that ought to be.
Hollywood, on the whole, does some high-quality stuff, but you look at the first 30 or 40 years of what Hollywood did, and it's terrible.
(28:54):
But they were learning and experimenting and honing the craft and inventing the craft.
We shouldn't be upset if it's going to take a few years for us to figure out how to use it.
Nowadays, I hate to even say this, because I had to pay these student loans off, but film school is almost unnecessary to some degree where there's so much that we can learn online.
(29:18):
There's so many tools and resources and people that we can connect with, even live sessions with industry professionals online, that you can learn the craft and learn the tools and just get creating.
Partner yourselves with other people who are in the space doing it and get started.
That's really how Appian Media began and we're excited to continue.
(29:38):
And it does sound like there's some great content for people to view and to consider that you have.
Where is the easiest place for people to find your content and find out more about what you are doing?
Probably the easiest place is just to go to appianmedia.org appianmedia.org or you can look up Appian Media on YouTube.
(30:01):
We've got a growing channel there and we're excited that all of the content that we produce, from the major series to the podcasts that we do to even a bunch of behind the scenes are available for free right there on our channel.
That's a goal of ours to make our content as readily available as we can and so we look for other distributing partners.
(30:23):
We want that content to be where people are looking for content.
Those are the two main sources but you'll you'll find them in a variety of others.
I guess that also begs the question, I know that you said that for your first project it was a bit of a Kickstarter thing and getting people behind it.
How are you funding this?
If you're making all this content available free of charge, it's not cheap to travel with good gear and then putting everything together at the end of it as well which is a massive project.
(30:51):
How are you funding this at the moment?
Appian Media is a non-profit organization and that began in year one.
We very quickly realized that there were enough people interested in this type of content that they were willing to financially support it on the front end and so that has been our goal that it's really just individuals that believe in the mission and want more of this content and so we will do fundraising events.
(31:18):
You can learn more about this on our website but over the course of most years people just donate on a monthly basis or on a one-time basis either towards a specific project or just towards the mission in general.
I talked to fellow professionals who are seeking investment and funding and hoping that that theatrical release pays off all their investors.
(31:40):
Ours is a very different model where we raise the vast majority of the funds on the front end, take the trip, do the production and then yes it is about an eight to ten sometimes twelve month period of post-production.
I do a good bit of that as the principal editor but there are other people involved in the writing and in the coloring and sound and that's all primarily paid for through donations.
(32:04):
Obviously now through ad revenue, through YouTube and other distributing partners and through the sell of workbooks.
We do produce these high-quality printed workbooks that have QR codes throughout each lesson where people can scan and get the video associated with that lesson.
A variety of wells to draw from and it's our mission to continue to make it available for free.
(32:26):
And the thing that excites me about that is if someone has been listening and their imagination has been sparked but they still say I will never be someone that is behind a camera or editing or any of those things, I wish there was a way to be involved.
There obviously is.
If you see a value in what's going on here and obviously it is very valuable then there's a way that people can contribute and see more of this produced.
(32:53):
And I will pop a link in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can both find your content but also find ways to support what it is that you're doing.
So Craig I just want to say thanks it's been a fascinating conversation and I'm sure that there's going to be many people that are going to be interested in in where the journey goes from here but thank you for your time on Bleeding Daylight.
(33:17):
Oh thank you so much for having me it's been a joy.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes please visit bleedingdaylight.net
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