December 7, 2025 • 30 mins
After losing her husband Luke to cancer in 2020, Michelle Bader Ebersole transformed her devastating grief into a lifeline for thousands of widows around the world. In this deeply moving conversation, Michelle shares her journey from standing on the metaphorical train tracks of anticipatory grief to building a thriving ministry that spans 121 countries. She offers practical wisdom on what to say (and what never to say) to someone who's grieving, debunks the myth of grief stages, and explains why talking about our loved ones who've passed is so precious to the bereaved.
Michelle's story is one of remarkable resilience and purpose. Through her podcast Widowed Too Soon, her book Widow Goals, and widow support groups in over 30 cities, she's creating communities where people don't just survive loss, they learn to thrive again. Whether you've experienced loss yourself or want to better support those who have, Michelle's insights on navigating grief, serving others, and finding hope after heartbreak will change the way you understand bereavement forever.
Bleeding Daylight is a Christian podcast of hope and transformation hosted by Rodney Olsen, featuring inspiring Christian testimonies and stories of faith in action.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Hello, I'm so pleased to welcome you to today's episode.
Hundreds more inspiring episodes are waiting for you now at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:31):
Please share Bleeding Daylight with people you know so they can be inspired too.
Most weddings contain the vow, till death do us part.
So what happens when that parting does happen?
How do we navigate a world when we lose the person we love?
Today's guest has helped thousands of people through that difficult season.
(00:54):
She has practical advice for those facing loss, as well as those of us wanting to demonstrate care for others.
Today I'm honoured to welcome someone whose story is both heartbreaking and incredibly inspiring.
(01:15):
After losing her husband Luke in 2020, Michelle Bader Ebersole turned her own devastating grief into a lifeline for thousands of others walking the same painful road.
She's the voice behind the Widowed Too Soon podcast, author of Widow Goals, and founder of a non-profit that's building widow support groups in over 30 cities.
(01:38):
Michelle's work isn't just about surviving loss, it's about finding joy, purpose and community on the other side of tragedy.
Michelle, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
We are constantly in life, trying to find certainty in an uncertain world, but some life events can send us spinning quite out of control.
(01:59):
Can you take me back to the days before you lost Luke?
What was life like before your world changed forever?
Yes, to understand it, he was sick for 16 and a half out of 17 years of our marriage.
So at a very young age, when Luke and I had first gotten married, he was 25.
He was diagnosed with a very rare bone cancer and ended up having his leg amputated.
(02:23):
He went through chemo and that didn't work, so he had his leg amputated.
And then the cancer was gone for 13 years.
So we always celebrate his amputation day as his cancer-free day.
But then it came back, and this time, the second time, we had three kids.
The first time we were just pregnant with our first.
So it was much different going through it with three kids.
(02:45):
We had to explain to them that he had cancer, but that we were going to do chemo and do everything that we could.
And this time it was in his lungs, and it was terminal.
There was nothing we could do.
We really prepared our kids, and we talked about that Daddy will be healed.
It may be on earth, but it may be in heaven.
That was kind of what we prayed every night.
God, heal Daddy.
(03:05):
We pray that it's on earth, but we know that it could be in heaven.
He continued to go downhill.
This was May of 2020, so the world is in COVID and all kinds of things happening.
But we can also look at that as a blessing as far as the time, because all the kids were home from school and were able to be together.
He died from cancer May 23, 2020.
(03:29):
Our whole married life, so 17 years, he was sick with something.
It wasn't just cancer.
He had pancreatitis, diabetes, cirrhosis, a lot of things.
Right before he died was very difficult.
I was preparing my kids that their dad was going to die, and doing the best.
We were really all about making memories and doing everything we could to just really enjoy that quality time.
(03:51):
I tell people, when you know someone's going to die, it's anticipatory grief.
It's like standing on a train track, knowing the train is coming.
You're just kind of bracing yourself.
That's what it felt like right before he died, is just knowing this was going to happen.
There was nothing I could do about it.
Crying out to God, like, No, you got the wrong person.
I can't do this.
I can't do this.
But knowing I was going to have to do it.
(04:11):
It was a very, very trying time.
That's just putting it lightly, to be facing this.
My kids were 12, 14, and 15, and to really be facing that their dad was going to die.
I told his hospice nurse, we were pretty close, and I told her, I'm prepared.
I've got this.
She's like, no.
No matter how much you think you're prepared, you're not going to be prepared.
(04:34):
And the moment that he took his last breath, I was not prepared.
I mean, there's something that happens when you watch the soul leave someone's body, and it's just something you cannot prepare for.
I did pretty good.
God gave me the supernatural peace as he was dying.
The kids were able to talk to him.
We were all together.
And after the kids left their room, that's when I lost it.
(04:55):
It was just me and my mom and his body, and I just laid with his body and just poured out tears from a total broken heart.
And wailed.
The kids later told me they really heard it.
I didn't know that.
And just didn't even know which way was up and down.
It's like being in this complete dark tunnel after he died.
So it was a pretty awful place to be.
(05:18):
And all I wanted to know as a young widow, I was 41, is does this get better?
Is this going to get any better?
Thankfully, I had met a few widows, and I called them all and was like, please tell me it gets better.
And they're like, yes, it does.
That's really where a lot of what I do was born, because I want widows to know it's not always going to hurt as bad as it does in the beginning, and that God doesn't waste any pain, and he can make something beautiful.
(05:47):
He is so good at taking ashes and turning them into beauty and turning mourning into dancing.
You're going through your own grief.
You know what's coming.
You're in that in-between stage of knowing what's around the corner and yet not fully prepared for it as much as you tried to.
I'm just wondering in that time, because obviously you're talking to a lot of widows and helping them with their own grief, but the people that surround us often will try and say very well-meaning things, will try and give us well-meaning advice, but sometimes it's difficult.
(06:22):
I imagine there were some of those people around you at that time who were trying to give you comfort, and yet what they were saying was just not bringing comfort at all.
Yes, there's a lot of that, and so I try to do education now on what not to say and what to say.
In fact, I have a whole chapter in my book about that, and I was actually sharing in my Bible study this morning some of these.
(06:45):
The worst thing you can do is say at least.
At least you had this many years.
At least this.
At least this.
It minimizes the person's grief.
Or the other big one is I understand how you feel.
No matter what comes after that, it's usually I understand how you feel.
I'm divorced.
I understand how you feel.
I lost someone.
(07:05):
Even if I have lost a spouse, I cannot understand when another person feels like we have different stories.
What I tell people is let's listen to their heart, not their words.
They mean well.
They just don't have any education on what to say.
The biggest pet peeve that most widows have is when people say, I understand I'm divorced.
And, yes, I know that divorce is a very horrible, difficult thing, but it is not the same thing, especially if you have kids, because they still have both parents.
(07:34):
And so that's one that I really don't like when people say to me.
There's so many.
The best thing that you can do instead of saying I understand how you feel, say I don't understand how you feel, but I'm here to listen.
And then just be quiet and let them talk.
Let them do whatever they need to do.
So the best thing is to not say you get it because you don't get it, but just listen.
(07:57):
That's all we want is for our friends and family to listen.
So, yes, I definitely got a lot of that.
I got people right away saying, oh, you're young.
You can date again, which was true.
I am remarried, but I didn't want to hear it at that moment.
It wasn't helpful.
The grief recovery method, which is something I've been trained in, talks about how there are things that are intellectually true, but they're not helpful at all.
(08:23):
They're not going to help somebody, especially saying he's in a better place.
Well, yes, we do believe that.
I know Luke's in heaven, but that doesn't help what I'm feeling.
At least he's not in pain, you know, all of those things.
I just recommend people mostly say I don't get it, but I'm here to listen.
So, yeah, I got a lot of that.
And I work with a lot of people that get all kinds of things.
You mentioned about that whole process of going through grief, and we've been told for years about the things that we experience going through grief.
(08:51):
Does that actually hold water, those stages?
Is that going to be the way that most people experience grief?
That is such a great question.
This is another thing I like to educate people on.
No, okay.
So, Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross invented the stages of grief.
She invented them for the people dying, not for those grieving.
And so, somewhere along the line, kind of like the game of telephone, it got changed to where people think that they're supposed to go through all these stages.
(09:18):
I did until it was pretty early in my journey.
I learned this on TikTok or somewhere.
Wait, this isn't true.
And then I researched it more that you may go through some of those, but you do not have to go through anger, denial, all of them.
And so, what it did for me and for the people I work with, it gives you relief.
Oh, there's nothing wrong with me because I didn't go through a lot of anger.
(09:40):
I didn't go through denial.
I'm like, there's something wrong with me.
I'm not grieving correct.
So, when I learned that that wasn't true, it was such a relief.
So, I like to say instead, grief comes in waves, not stages.
It will come out of nowhere.
A song, a picture, anything can throw you into grief.
And in the beginning, the waves last a long time.
(10:02):
And as you get healing, the waves still come.
I'm five years out.
I still get waves, but they're much shorter.
I'm good a lot faster than I was in the beginning.
But that is one of the biggest misconceptions, that there are stages in grief.
And so, I like to educate people on that, that there's not.
So, great question.
How were all the firsts for you in that first year after Luke's passing?
(10:26):
The first birthday without him, the first Christmas without him, the first birthdays for your kids without him.
How difficult were they?
I imagine they brought certain waves of grief.
Yes.
I think the first year is the hardest.
Some people say it's the second, but for me, it was definitely the first year.
So, he died right before Father's Day.
So, that was three weeks after he died, two or three weeks.
(10:49):
So, that was extremely difficult for myself and my kids, then going into the summer holidays and all of that.
But I'll tell you the hardest ones, it was actually, you know, a few months.
We were in October, and we would always go to a pumpkin patch together.
So, the first holiday, I was like, we're doing everything the same.
So, we tried it, and it was a disaster.
(11:11):
Number one, my kids were getting older and didn't love it as much.
But number two, his absence was felt so strongly because it was a place we used to go.
So, then I decided, I'm going to do things differently for the other holidays.
I'm going to go at Christmas time.
We're not going to the same tree farm.
We're going somewhere different.
And that really helped me to do something different.
And also for Thanksgiving, I was, I can't do that this year.
(11:33):
I can't sit down at a table without him.
So, we went to Great Wolf Lodge, which is like a hotel that has water slides and all the stuff that my kids got to do.
What I like to tell people is to include some of the old traditions, but definitely some of the new.
You've got to combine them.
Something that we do every Christmas now is we share a memory about Luke.
(11:54):
My kids do, and I do, and that's something we've incorporated.
The old tradition was we had Cinnabons every Christmas morning.
We still do that, so that's the old tradition.
But now, we talk about Luke, and we talk about Christmas memories with him and our favorite memories.
Birthdays were very hard.
So, my son turned 16 about a month and a half after his dad died.
(12:16):
Very difficult, but again, we did something different.
We went out of town, and we were visiting friends.
And something really special is Luke had picked out gifts for all the kids for their next birthdays.
And so, that was super, super special.
So, when Hayden turned 16, he had a gold chain that Luke used to wear when he was a teenager.
And Hayden's 21 now, and he still wears it every day.
So, that was really, really special.
(12:37):
But yeah, holidays are hard.
Birthdays are really, really hard.
For me, the two biggest days are our would-be anniversary day and also the anniversary of his death.
Those are the two hardest ones because no one remembers.
Because unless they put in their calendar, that's just random dates.
It's not like a holiday everyone knows.
And so, I do have friends that after the first year of being disappointed, I ask them to please put it in their calendar so that they would remember the day he died, my anniversary.
(13:06):
And I've got some friends that do.
And just for an example of how grief still stays with you, I am remarried for about two and a half years.
And it was my would-be anniversary with Luke, my first husband, but I was happily married with Joel a year.
But I was still having grief.
And how I like to explain that, when you have one child and you think, I'll never love another child as much, but you have another one and your heart expands, that is how it is when you have a late husband and you get married again.
(13:31):
You can love two people at once.
That's a little bit about holidays.
For me, they've gotten a lot easier over the years, but it's all the milestones that Luke is missing.
He died before all of my kids graduated high school, so I've gone through two graduations.
We'll have another one this year.
Driving, all the big ones, going to college, there's going to be weddings, all of that stuff.
(13:52):
And so that's, I think, where I carry the biggest grief is for my kids, for sure.
And you touched on there this idea of letting your friends know, hey, can you pop this in your diary?
I'd like you to sort of just say something on these anniversaries that mostly go by.
How important is it for us if we lose someone to be able to take control of that grief and let others know, hey, this is something that's going to be helpful for me.
(14:18):
How important is it that we do that rather than just sitting back and thinking, oh, no one noticed?
It's very important to be proactive in your grief.
I learned by mistake that I didn't let everyone know.
So I recommend if you do lose someone, know that people are probably going to forget.
So ask people to put it in their calendar and remember.
(14:40):
So they get Google alerts or however they do their calendar.
They get alerts every year.
I try to do that.
If somebody loses someone, put it in my calendar because I'm not going to remember.
To me, it's going to be another regular day.
But to them, it's the day their world stopped.
And so it's so important that we remember those days and reach out, even if it's just a little text thinking of you today.
(15:00):
It's hard for me now because I literally know hundreds and hundreds of widows, so I don't remember all of them personally, but it's really important.
Actually, I did do something for widows so that I could reach more.
I have an email system where they put in the dates, all these big dates, and I'll send them a video and I pray for them on the video.
And so I have found a way to reach more, but I don't always personally remember everybody's anniversaries and all of that.
(15:23):
But it is so, so important because one of the biggest problems being widowed is feeling all alone.
You can just feel like nobody gets this.
None of my friends had been through it.
I now have friends that are widowed, but at that time, I mean, I know a few people, but in my close circle, no one had been widowed and they were all still married.
You can just feel really, really alone.
(15:44):
And so it's important that we reach out.
I talk about in my book, chapter two is called call on your tribe, and it's about letting people know what you need.
Then I also like to educate people that if you're the one loving someone, you know, that's lost someone.
Don't ever say, let me know if there's anything you need.
That's one of the worst things you can say because we don't know what we need.
The best thing you can do is be assertive and be like, I'm going to bring you a meal.
(16:05):
I'm going to take your kids.
I'm going to do this.
My best friend, Joe, five hours came over.
I mean, she just did everything.
I didn't have to ask her anything.
And that's what we need when we're grieving is people who step up and are like, okay, I'm going to help you.
I'm going to do this.
Before I was widowed, I didn't know any of these things.
One of my biggest things is grief education and educating people how hard it is when you're widowed.
(16:26):
So you've now set up these support groups for widows.
You've written your book, as you mentioned, Widow Goals, Steps to Finding Peace When You Lose Your Spouse, also the podcast Widowed Too Soon.
When was it, how far down your grieving journey did you decide, I need to turn this into something that is going to support others who are facing the unknown of widowhood?
(16:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I would say like around six months, I was starting to feel better and I was like, I want to use this for something.
So actually the very first thing I think before the podcast, I started my book, but I put it down for years and I'm actually glad I did because I didn't know nearly what I learned in the last five years.
And so I had the idea first of the book Widow Goals.
(17:12):
I was 11 months out when I started the podcast Widowed Too Soon.
It was myself and a widower.
And the reason we started it is because we were in all of these Facebook groups with widows and widowers and we saw them turning to all the wrong things.
And we were like, they need Jesus.
So we need to start a podcast where we can give people hope.
It's been going for four years now.
(17:33):
I just felt like if I had to go through this, I'm going to help other people.
And it's been one of the most rewarding things ever, being able to pour into people.
So first came a little bit of the book, then the podcast, and then the nonprofit.
I searched for widow groups everywhere and there was none, none in churches.
There was nothing.
(17:53):
This is so common, unfortunately.
And so I started my own.
And so Widow Goals, my nonprofit was born.
And the first thing we actually did is I got addresses of widows in my area.
My daughter and I delivered baskets on Mother's Day.
That was one of the very first things we did because Mother's Day is actually well, because a lot of times it's your husband, not the kids who actually do things for you.
(18:14):
And then from there, we started getting together and we've now been going three years where we just go to different people's houses every month.
It's just the third Monday of every month.
I've been able to build this widow's community.
And then I had friends in other cities who said, I want to try this.
So I taught them what to do.
And then it was kind of just blew up.
And we went all over the world.
(18:35):
Well, mostly us and then two in Canada.
And I just taught them what I knew about how to lead a group.
As far as my book, the five year anniversary was on May 23rd of 25.
And I was like, you know what?
It's time for me to finish my book.
And I want to do this in honor of Luke.
So I really buckled down and started writing, got an editor, all of that stuff.
(18:55):
And I wanted to create goals, things that people could easily do.
They could read the book in any order.
And also when I say widows, I mean widowers as well.
It's, it means the same thing in my community of widows.
It's a biblical perspective on everything.
Chapter one is get out of bed.
So I start with something simple.
It's hard in the beginning.
There's call on your tribe, have an eternal purpose, know that it's okay to be angry with God.
(19:19):
And then the chapter that has had the most impact on people from what people tell me is know that you were chosen.
And this was based on an experience I had about two months after Luke died.
I was at a grief retreat and God gave me this vision.
And it was basically, he placed a crown on my head and said, I'm proud of you.
And I chose you out of all the people in the world.
(19:39):
I chose you to be Luke's wife and walk with him into his death.
It changed my entire perspective.
Before that, I used to say, am I being punished?
Why did my husband die?
This isn't fair.
I don't get it.
And then it changed everything.
And so in this chapter, I try to reframe it for everyone.
This is actually a gift that you were with them for the rest of their life.
And what a privilege.
(20:01):
My passion right now is getting a program into churches because it is, unfortunately, the place where widows feel the most alone because it's geared for families.
At least here in the US, we don't have a lot of groups for widows.
So what I have now is my book and my workbook and a leader's guide.
And I want to get that into churches across the world.
(20:23):
So there's a support system for widows.
When you're a brand new widow, here's a group, and we're actually going to be going through a book that's going to help you.
We go through all the education about grief.
God mentions widows 103 times in the Bible, yet so few churches have a ministry.
So that's my big passion.
Of course, not everyone is going to start a nonprofit.
(20:45):
Not everyone is going to write a book or a study guide for people.
Not everyone is going to start a podcast.
But how helpful is it to actually, at the right time, further down the track, turn around and say, I need to be serving others.
I need to be giving out, not just sitting in my grief.
Oh, that's so important.
(21:06):
It's actually one of the biggest steps in healing is when you're pouring into other people.
I mean, I attribute a lot of my healing to the fact that I did start pretty early in my journey.
You know, yes, in the very beginning, you're just surviving.
Like you can't do anything.
But as time goes by and you are starting to feel healthier, you don't have to start a group and write a book.
(21:27):
Just reach out to anyone you know, who's widowed.
They will come across your path.
Now that you're widowed, people are going to tell you when someone else is widowed, take them to coffee.
My ministry probably wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have met my good friend, Stacey Campbell weights.
So she was actually widowed twice by the time she was 40.
She reached out to me on social media.
She lived in my area.
(21:47):
She'd heard of me and said, let's go to coffee.
And she poured into me and she's a big part of everything that I do with my ministry.
And if it hadn't been for that one person, these hundreds of maybe, you know, over thousands of people wouldn't have been touched.
It's so important because when you're widowed, you feel all alone.
So for someone to reach out and say, Hey, like I would love to get together with you and talk about my experience and listen to yours.
(22:10):
That means so much.
And where it doesn't even have to be in the widow community, like serve anywhere, go to your church and volunteer.
It's going to help you get your eyes off of yourself and onto someone else, which is so good for our healing.
And so I highly recommend when you feel like you can handle, not just taking care of yourself, but helping other people.
(22:31):
I highly recommend serving.
In fact, the motto of my nonprofit is widows, helping widows, not only survive, but thrive.
God didn't allow us to be here after our husband's deaths or wife's death to just sit here and survive.
Cause some people, they say it on my Facebook groups.
They say like, I just want to die.
I'm just living until I'm dead and I can join him.
(22:52):
You're still here for a reason.
If you are still breathing, you're here for a reason.
And it's not just to survive.
It's to thrive.
And so that's my goal is to help people really see that and to start living life again.
Because in the beginning, you don't feel like living life.
You feel like you have no purpose.
Your whole identity's changed.
You're no longer married in an instant.
You're not married.
It's so strange.
It's such a hard time, but I really want people to know that God's got a purpose.
(23:15):
If you're alive and you're listening to this, this is for all listeners.
God has a purpose for your life.
No matter what's going on in your life, like there's still more to come.
For those who have not lost someone and don't understand this grief, there is sometimes this misconception that it's best not to talk about the person who has passed.
(23:35):
Just don't mention it because we don't want to bring those things up.
And yet, if we have lost someone, we know we're thinking about them anyway.
And it almost feels harsh that people around don't want to acknowledge them.
How important is it that we do actually speak at the right time and sometimes asking permission to speak about the person who has passed?
(23:55):
It's so important.
It is the most precious thing.
If people say, Hey, I have this memory of Luke.
They're like treasures when you only have a limited amount of memories and someone comes to you and they share a memory they have with them or a picture or whatever.
But we want to talk about it.
This happened to me.
I ran into an acquaintance right after Luke died and she didn't say anything.
(24:17):
So I just said it.
I don't know if you know, but Luke died and she's like, Oh yeah, I'm so sorry.
But what happens is people, they don't want to upset us or they're just so scared of the reaction.
They don't say anything, but really we have to get out of that way of being scared of what someone's going to think and say it like it means so much if somebody says something about your spouse.
(24:37):
And so don't be afraid to say it.
They might cry.
They might not, but they love it.
We love it to talk about our spouses.
And so that's another huge myth out there is that you shouldn't say anything and walk on eggshells.
No, we want to talk about our spouse.
And so normalize that, you know, that's something I did in my home right away.
What would daddy think about this?
(24:59):
What do you think daddy?
And we, we, it's a lot less now, but it's even normalized with Joel.
Like he's good with us talking about Luke.
It's really, really important that the person who lost a loved one, whether it's a spouse, a parent, a sibling, a child, anything that you allow them the space to talk about them.
They want to.
So yes, I'm very passionate about that as well.
(25:21):
You've done so much in this world of reaching out to other people through the podcast, through the book, through your nonprofit group.
I'm sure that you've had lots of people come to you and say, this has been an absolute lifesaver for me.
This has changed my life.
Are there perhaps a couple of stories of those people that have come to you and said, Michelle, this is the impact that you and your ministry has had for me.
(25:47):
Yeah, I've actually had a couple instances over the years where people said they wanted to end their life until they listened to my podcast or one girl said until she read my book to me, that was the biggest.
Okay.
I'm in the right place.
God's using me.
And the, both of them, like I said, one was podcast.
One was a book and it was a, both the same thing.
(26:09):
Like I felt alone until I knew that, you know, these things that happened to you and others in the community.
And I found your community.
I also have a really large widow community on Facebook.
Yeah.
Those things are huge.
I've had several people tell me that they have binge listened to all the episodes within a couple of months and there's 200 of them and how that is the only thing or one of the only things that helped them through it.
(26:33):
I am in awe.
It's not me.
I'm a vessel for God.
And this is where he placed me.
I never in a million years thought this was going to be what I did.
I'm have my master's in education.
I was an elementary teacher, but after Luke died, I went back for a little bit, but I was like, this isn't it anymore.
Now I'm able to do full-time ministry for widows.
And I think it's the most amazing thing to be able to do that.
(26:54):
But yeah, I'm humbled when I hear stories and I still don't fully understand the impact, but we're in 121 countries and it's just been amazing to get to meet people all over the world who say that this ministry has helped them so much.
And then as I'm watching more and more groups pop up and then they're meeting people and they're meeting people and it's, it's kind of like a domino effect.
(27:17):
We pour into people and they pour into other people.
And that's how we're able to be these vessels for God.
Just like I was talking about my friend, Stacy, who reached out to me, then our lives touch somebody else's who touch someone else's and we're able to like complete the things that God wants us to do.
So yeah, it's been an amazing journey for sure.
You've mentioned a few times that you've remarried, which is absolutely wonderful.
(27:39):
And it's great that you're able to continue to go forward.
But I know that when someone's spouse passes away, there's this idea in the community, in the wider community.
And I certainly hear it within the church of, you know, oh, that's a bit soon or actually they should wait a little bit longer.
Is that something that comes up for a lot of people who have been widowed where there is this thought of, oh no, that's too soon.
(28:02):
Or, okay, now is the time.
And how do we go through that?
Because it must put a lot of guilt on the person who is just wanting to reach out and continue to live.
Right.
It happens so much.
It's very sad.
For me, it wasn't actually anyone I knew who said that.
I do have a large following on TikTok.
And it was people that I didn't know.
(28:23):
And there were things like, you must not have loved your husband.
You know, all kinds of things.
Because I started dating Joel 18 months after Luke.
Society just doesn't understand it.
And so really, people should not give any judgments.
There's the two things that widows tell me that they face.
It's either they start dating someone and everybody goes, that's way too soon, you shouldn't do that.
(28:43):
Or it's been a year and everyone's pushing them to date and they're like, I'm not ready.
I would say to outside people, please do not tell a person, a widow or widower, like they should date or they shouldn't date.
Just let them figure it out.
There is a lot of guilt when you start dating again in the very, very beginning.
It feels weird.
Like I was with Luke for 17 years.
So being with someone else felt like you're cheating in the beginning.
(29:05):
Like it feels very strange, but you have to let go of that.
You've obviously done so much in this space, as you say, over 200 episodes of the podcast.
The book is available.
People are able to join the not-for-profit groups and be able to, to get help that way.
What is the easiest way for people to find you if they want to connect and want to hear the podcast or read the book?
(29:29):
What's the easiest way for people to find you?
Yes.
Widowgoals.org.
That pretty much has everything.
It has the cities where we have the groups.
It has a link to my podcast, my book, my emails, Michelle at widowgoals.org, which is on the website.
So that's probably the best place.
We also have, if someone is listening and they're widowed, Widowed Too Soon Community.
(29:53):
If you just search in Widowed Too Soon Community on Facebook, we have over 13,000 people.
It's a very active community and the books are on Amazon as well.
And those links are in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net, so you can head there and grab them if you miss them.
But Michelle, I want to say thank you for what you're doing.
Thank you for the many people that you've been able to walk alongside and thank you especially today for spending some time on Bleeding Daylight.
(30:21):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
[♪ music playing ♪
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Hello, I'm so pleased to welcome you to today's episode.
Hundreds more inspiring episodes are waiting for you now at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:31):
Please share Bleeding Daylight with people you know so they can be inspired too.
Most weddings contain the vow, till death do us part.
So what happens when that parting does happen?
How do we navigate a world when we lose the person we love?
Today's guest has helped thousands of people through that difficult season.
(00:54):
She has practical advice for those facing loss, as well as those of us wanting to demonstrate care for others.
Today I'm honoured to welcome someone whose story is both heartbreaking and incredibly inspiring.
(01:15):
After losing her husband Luke in 2020, Michelle Bader Ebersole turned her own devastating grief into a lifeline for thousands of others walking the same painful road.
She's the voice behind the Widowed Too Soon podcast, author of Widow Goals, and founder of a non-profit that's building widow support groups in over 30 cities.
(01:38):
Michelle's work isn't just about surviving loss, it's about finding joy, purpose and community on the other side of tragedy.
Michelle, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
We are constantly in life, trying to find certainty in an uncertain world, but some life events can send us spinning quite out of control.
(01:59):
Can you take me back to the days before you lost Luke?
What was life like before your world changed forever?
Yes, to understand it, he was sick for 16 and a half out of 17 years of our marriage.
So at a very young age, when Luke and I had first gotten married, he was 25.
He was diagnosed with a very rare bone cancer and ended up having his leg amputated.
(02:23):
He went through chemo and that didn't work, so he had his leg amputated.
And then the cancer was gone for 13 years.
So we always celebrate his amputation day as his cancer-free day.
But then it came back, and this time, the second time, we had three kids.
The first time we were just pregnant with our first.
So it was much different going through it with three kids.
(02:45):
We had to explain to them that he had cancer, but that we were going to do chemo and do everything that we could.
And this time it was in his lungs, and it was terminal.
There was nothing we could do.
We really prepared our kids, and we talked about that Daddy will be healed.
It may be on earth, but it may be in heaven.
That was kind of what we prayed every night.
God, heal Daddy.
(03:05):
We pray that it's on earth, but we know that it could be in heaven.
He continued to go downhill.
This was May of 2020, so the world is in COVID and all kinds of things happening.
But we can also look at that as a blessing as far as the time, because all the kids were home from school and were able to be together.
He died from cancer May 23, 2020.
(03:29):
Our whole married life, so 17 years, he was sick with something.
It wasn't just cancer.
He had pancreatitis, diabetes, cirrhosis, a lot of things.
Right before he died was very difficult.
I was preparing my kids that their dad was going to die, and doing the best.
We were really all about making memories and doing everything we could to just really enjoy that quality time.
(03:51):
I tell people, when you know someone's going to die, it's anticipatory grief.
It's like standing on a train track, knowing the train is coming.
You're just kind of bracing yourself.
That's what it felt like right before he died, is just knowing this was going to happen.
There was nothing I could do about it.
Crying out to God, like, No, you got the wrong person.
I can't do this.
I can't do this.
But knowing I was going to have to do it.
(04:11):
It was a very, very trying time.
That's just putting it lightly, to be facing this.
My kids were 12, 14, and 15, and to really be facing that their dad was going to die.
I told his hospice nurse, we were pretty close, and I told her, I'm prepared.
I've got this.
She's like, no.
No matter how much you think you're prepared, you're not going to be prepared.
(04:34):
And the moment that he took his last breath, I was not prepared.
I mean, there's something that happens when you watch the soul leave someone's body, and it's just something you cannot prepare for.
I did pretty good.
God gave me the supernatural peace as he was dying.
The kids were able to talk to him.
We were all together.
And after the kids left their room, that's when I lost it.
(04:55):
It was just me and my mom and his body, and I just laid with his body and just poured out tears from a total broken heart.
And wailed.
The kids later told me they really heard it.
I didn't know that.
And just didn't even know which way was up and down.
It's like being in this complete dark tunnel after he died.
So it was a pretty awful place to be.
(05:18):
And all I wanted to know as a young widow, I was 41, is does this get better?
Is this going to get any better?
Thankfully, I had met a few widows, and I called them all and was like, please tell me it gets better.
And they're like, yes, it does.
That's really where a lot of what I do was born, because I want widows to know it's not always going to hurt as bad as it does in the beginning, and that God doesn't waste any pain, and he can make something beautiful.
(05:47):
He is so good at taking ashes and turning them into beauty and turning mourning into dancing.
You're going through your own grief.
You know what's coming.
You're in that in-between stage of knowing what's around the corner and yet not fully prepared for it as much as you tried to.
I'm just wondering in that time, because obviously you're talking to a lot of widows and helping them with their own grief, but the people that surround us often will try and say very well-meaning things, will try and give us well-meaning advice, but sometimes it's difficult.
(06:22):
I imagine there were some of those people around you at that time who were trying to give you comfort, and yet what they were saying was just not bringing comfort at all.
Yes, there's a lot of that, and so I try to do education now on what not to say and what to say.
In fact, I have a whole chapter in my book about that, and I was actually sharing in my Bible study this morning some of these.
(06:45):
The worst thing you can do is say at least.
At least you had this many years.
At least this.
At least this.
It minimizes the person's grief.
Or the other big one is I understand how you feel.
No matter what comes after that, it's usually I understand how you feel.
I'm divorced.
I understand how you feel.
I lost someone.
(07:05):
Even if I have lost a spouse, I cannot understand when another person feels like we have different stories.
What I tell people is let's listen to their heart, not their words.
They mean well.
They just don't have any education on what to say.
The biggest pet peeve that most widows have is when people say, I understand I'm divorced.
And, yes, I know that divorce is a very horrible, difficult thing, but it is not the same thing, especially if you have kids, because they still have both parents.
(07:34):
And so that's one that I really don't like when people say to me.
There's so many.
The best thing that you can do instead of saying I understand how you feel, say I don't understand how you feel, but I'm here to listen.
And then just be quiet and let them talk.
Let them do whatever they need to do.
So the best thing is to not say you get it because you don't get it, but just listen.
(07:57):
That's all we want is for our friends and family to listen.
So, yes, I definitely got a lot of that.
I got people right away saying, oh, you're young.
You can date again, which was true.
I am remarried, but I didn't want to hear it at that moment.
It wasn't helpful.
The grief recovery method, which is something I've been trained in, talks about how there are things that are intellectually true, but they're not helpful at all.
(08:23):
They're not going to help somebody, especially saying he's in a better place.
Well, yes, we do believe that.
I know Luke's in heaven, but that doesn't help what I'm feeling.
At least he's not in pain, you know, all of those things.
I just recommend people mostly say I don't get it, but I'm here to listen.
So, yeah, I got a lot of that.
And I work with a lot of people that get all kinds of things.
You mentioned about that whole process of going through grief, and we've been told for years about the things that we experience going through grief.
(08:51):
Does that actually hold water, those stages?
Is that going to be the way that most people experience grief?
That is such a great question.
This is another thing I like to educate people on.
No, okay.
So, Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross invented the stages of grief.
She invented them for the people dying, not for those grieving.
And so, somewhere along the line, kind of like the game of telephone, it got changed to where people think that they're supposed to go through all these stages.
(09:18):
I did until it was pretty early in my journey.
I learned this on TikTok or somewhere.
Wait, this isn't true.
And then I researched it more that you may go through some of those, but you do not have to go through anger, denial, all of them.
And so, what it did for me and for the people I work with, it gives you relief.
Oh, there's nothing wrong with me because I didn't go through a lot of anger.
(09:40):
I didn't go through denial.
I'm like, there's something wrong with me.
I'm not grieving correct.
So, when I learned that that wasn't true, it was such a relief.
So, I like to say instead, grief comes in waves, not stages.
It will come out of nowhere.
A song, a picture, anything can throw you into grief.
And in the beginning, the waves last a long time.
(10:02):
And as you get healing, the waves still come.
I'm five years out.
I still get waves, but they're much shorter.
I'm good a lot faster than I was in the beginning.
But that is one of the biggest misconceptions, that there are stages in grief.
And so, I like to educate people on that, that there's not.
So, great question.
How were all the firsts for you in that first year after Luke's passing?
(10:26):
The first birthday without him, the first Christmas without him, the first birthdays for your kids without him.
How difficult were they?
I imagine they brought certain waves of grief.
Yes.
I think the first year is the hardest.
Some people say it's the second, but for me, it was definitely the first year.
So, he died right before Father's Day.
So, that was three weeks after he died, two or three weeks.
(10:49):
So, that was extremely difficult for myself and my kids, then going into the summer holidays and all of that.
But I'll tell you the hardest ones, it was actually, you know, a few months.
We were in October, and we would always go to a pumpkin patch together.
So, the first holiday, I was like, we're doing everything the same.
So, we tried it, and it was a disaster.
(11:11):
Number one, my kids were getting older and didn't love it as much.
But number two, his absence was felt so strongly because it was a place we used to go.
So, then I decided, I'm going to do things differently for the other holidays.
I'm going to go at Christmas time.
We're not going to the same tree farm.
We're going somewhere different.
And that really helped me to do something different.
And also for Thanksgiving, I was, I can't do that this year.
(11:33):
I can't sit down at a table without him.
So, we went to Great Wolf Lodge, which is like a hotel that has water slides and all the stuff that my kids got to do.
What I like to tell people is to include some of the old traditions, but definitely some of the new.
You've got to combine them.
Something that we do every Christmas now is we share a memory about Luke.
(11:54):
My kids do, and I do, and that's something we've incorporated.
The old tradition was we had Cinnabons every Christmas morning.
We still do that, so that's the old tradition.
But now, we talk about Luke, and we talk about Christmas memories with him and our favorite memories.
Birthdays were very hard.
So, my son turned 16 about a month and a half after his dad died.
(12:16):
Very difficult, but again, we did something different.
We went out of town, and we were visiting friends.
And something really special is Luke had picked out gifts for all the kids for their next birthdays.
And so, that was super, super special.
So, when Hayden turned 16, he had a gold chain that Luke used to wear when he was a teenager.
And Hayden's 21 now, and he still wears it every day.
So, that was really, really special.
(12:37):
But yeah, holidays are hard.
Birthdays are really, really hard.
For me, the two biggest days are our would-be anniversary day and also the anniversary of his death.
Those are the two hardest ones because no one remembers.
Because unless they put in their calendar, that's just random dates.
It's not like a holiday everyone knows.
And so, I do have friends that after the first year of being disappointed, I ask them to please put it in their calendar so that they would remember the day he died, my anniversary.
(13:06):
And I've got some friends that do.
And just for an example of how grief still stays with you, I am remarried for about two and a half years.
And it was my would-be anniversary with Luke, my first husband, but I was happily married with Joel a year.
But I was still having grief.
And how I like to explain that, when you have one child and you think, I'll never love another child as much, but you have another one and your heart expands, that is how it is when you have a late husband and you get married again.
(13:31):
You can love two people at once.
That's a little bit about holidays.
For me, they've gotten a lot easier over the years, but it's all the milestones that Luke is missing.
He died before all of my kids graduated high school, so I've gone through two graduations.
We'll have another one this year.
Driving, all the big ones, going to college, there's going to be weddings, all of that stuff.
(13:52):
And so that's, I think, where I carry the biggest grief is for my kids, for sure.
And you touched on there this idea of letting your friends know, hey, can you pop this in your diary?
I'd like you to sort of just say something on these anniversaries that mostly go by.
How important is it for us if we lose someone to be able to take control of that grief and let others know, hey, this is something that's going to be helpful for me.
(14:18):
How important is it that we do that rather than just sitting back and thinking, oh, no one noticed?
It's very important to be proactive in your grief.
I learned by mistake that I didn't let everyone know.
So I recommend if you do lose someone, know that people are probably going to forget.
So ask people to put it in their calendar and remember.
(14:40):
So they get Google alerts or however they do their calendar.
They get alerts every year.
I try to do that.
If somebody loses someone, put it in my calendar because I'm not going to remember.
To me, it's going to be another regular day.
But to them, it's the day their world stopped.
And so it's so important that we remember those days and reach out, even if it's just a little text thinking of you today.
(15:00):
It's hard for me now because I literally know hundreds and hundreds of widows, so I don't remember all of them personally, but it's really important.
Actually, I did do something for widows so that I could reach more.
I have an email system where they put in the dates, all these big dates, and I'll send them a video and I pray for them on the video.
And so I have found a way to reach more, but I don't always personally remember everybody's anniversaries and all of that.
(15:23):
But it is so, so important because one of the biggest problems being widowed is feeling all alone.
You can just feel like nobody gets this.
None of my friends had been through it.
I now have friends that are widowed, but at that time, I mean, I know a few people, but in my close circle, no one had been widowed and they were all still married.
You can just feel really, really alone.
(15:44):
And so it's important that we reach out.
I talk about in my book, chapter two is called call on your tribe, and it's about letting people know what you need.
Then I also like to educate people that if you're the one loving someone, you know, that's lost someone.
Don't ever say, let me know if there's anything you need.
That's one of the worst things you can say because we don't know what we need.
The best thing you can do is be assertive and be like, I'm going to bring you a meal.
(16:05):
I'm going to take your kids.
I'm going to do this.
My best friend, Joe, five hours came over.
I mean, she just did everything.
I didn't have to ask her anything.
And that's what we need when we're grieving is people who step up and are like, okay, I'm going to help you.
I'm going to do this.
Before I was widowed, I didn't know any of these things.
One of my biggest things is grief education and educating people how hard it is when you're widowed.
(16:26):
So you've now set up these support groups for widows.
You've written your book, as you mentioned, Widow Goals, Steps to Finding Peace When You Lose Your Spouse, also the podcast Widowed Too Soon.
When was it, how far down your grieving journey did you decide, I need to turn this into something that is going to support others who are facing the unknown of widowhood?
(16:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I would say like around six months, I was starting to feel better and I was like, I want to use this for something.
So actually the very first thing I think before the podcast, I started my book, but I put it down for years and I'm actually glad I did because I didn't know nearly what I learned in the last five years.
And so I had the idea first of the book Widow Goals.
(17:12):
I was 11 months out when I started the podcast Widowed Too Soon.
It was myself and a widower.
And the reason we started it is because we were in all of these Facebook groups with widows and widowers and we saw them turning to all the wrong things.
And we were like, they need Jesus.
So we need to start a podcast where we can give people hope.
It's been going for four years now.
(17:33):
I just felt like if I had to go through this, I'm going to help other people.
And it's been one of the most rewarding things ever, being able to pour into people.
So first came a little bit of the book, then the podcast, and then the nonprofit.
I searched for widow groups everywhere and there was none, none in churches.
There was nothing.
(17:53):
This is so common, unfortunately.
And so I started my own.
And so Widow Goals, my nonprofit was born.
And the first thing we actually did is I got addresses of widows in my area.
My daughter and I delivered baskets on Mother's Day.
That was one of the very first things we did because Mother's Day is actually well, because a lot of times it's your husband, not the kids who actually do things for you.
(18:14):
And then from there, we started getting together and we've now been going three years where we just go to different people's houses every month.
It's just the third Monday of every month.
I've been able to build this widow's community.
And then I had friends in other cities who said, I want to try this.
So I taught them what to do.
And then it was kind of just blew up.
And we went all over the world.
(18:35):
Well, mostly us and then two in Canada.
And I just taught them what I knew about how to lead a group.
As far as my book, the five year anniversary was on May 23rd of 25.
And I was like, you know what?
It's time for me to finish my book.
And I want to do this in honor of Luke.
So I really buckled down and started writing, got an editor, all of that stuff.
(18:55):
And I wanted to create goals, things that people could easily do.
They could read the book in any order.
And also when I say widows, I mean widowers as well.
It's, it means the same thing in my community of widows.
It's a biblical perspective on everything.
Chapter one is get out of bed.
So I start with something simple.
It's hard in the beginning.
There's call on your tribe, have an eternal purpose, know that it's okay to be angry with God.
(19:19):
And then the chapter that has had the most impact on people from what people tell me is know that you were chosen.
And this was based on an experience I had about two months after Luke died.
I was at a grief retreat and God gave me this vision.
And it was basically, he placed a crown on my head and said, I'm proud of you.
And I chose you out of all the people in the world.
(19:39):
I chose you to be Luke's wife and walk with him into his death.
It changed my entire perspective.
Before that, I used to say, am I being punished?
Why did my husband die?
This isn't fair.
I don't get it.
And then it changed everything.
And so in this chapter, I try to reframe it for everyone.
This is actually a gift that you were with them for the rest of their life.
And what a privilege.
(20:01):
My passion right now is getting a program into churches because it is, unfortunately, the place where widows feel the most alone because it's geared for families.
At least here in the US, we don't have a lot of groups for widows.
So what I have now is my book and my workbook and a leader's guide.
And I want to get that into churches across the world.
(20:23):
So there's a support system for widows.
When you're a brand new widow, here's a group, and we're actually going to be going through a book that's going to help you.
We go through all the education about grief.
God mentions widows 103 times in the Bible, yet so few churches have a ministry.
So that's my big passion.
Of course, not everyone is going to start a nonprofit.
(20:45):
Not everyone is going to write a book or a study guide for people.
Not everyone is going to start a podcast.
But how helpful is it to actually, at the right time, further down the track, turn around and say, I need to be serving others.
I need to be giving out, not just sitting in my grief.
Oh, that's so important.
(21:06):
It's actually one of the biggest steps in healing is when you're pouring into other people.
I mean, I attribute a lot of my healing to the fact that I did start pretty early in my journey.
You know, yes, in the very beginning, you're just surviving.
Like you can't do anything.
But as time goes by and you are starting to feel healthier, you don't have to start a group and write a book.
(21:27):
Just reach out to anyone you know, who's widowed.
They will come across your path.
Now that you're widowed, people are going to tell you when someone else is widowed, take them to coffee.
My ministry probably wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have met my good friend, Stacey Campbell weights.
So she was actually widowed twice by the time she was 40.
She reached out to me on social media.
She lived in my area.
(21:47):
She'd heard of me and said, let's go to coffee.
And she poured into me and she's a big part of everything that I do with my ministry.
And if it hadn't been for that one person, these hundreds of maybe, you know, over thousands of people wouldn't have been touched.
It's so important because when you're widowed, you feel all alone.
So for someone to reach out and say, Hey, like I would love to get together with you and talk about my experience and listen to yours.
(22:10):
That means so much.
And where it doesn't even have to be in the widow community, like serve anywhere, go to your church and volunteer.
It's going to help you get your eyes off of yourself and onto someone else, which is so good for our healing.
And so I highly recommend when you feel like you can handle, not just taking care of yourself, but helping other people.
(22:31):
I highly recommend serving.
In fact, the motto of my nonprofit is widows, helping widows, not only survive, but thrive.
God didn't allow us to be here after our husband's deaths or wife's death to just sit here and survive.
Cause some people, they say it on my Facebook groups.
They say like, I just want to die.
I'm just living until I'm dead and I can join him.
(22:52):
You're still here for a reason.
If you are still breathing, you're here for a reason.
And it's not just to survive.
It's to thrive.
And so that's my goal is to help people really see that and to start living life again.
Because in the beginning, you don't feel like living life.
You feel like you have no purpose.
Your whole identity's changed.
You're no longer married in an instant.
You're not married.
It's so strange.
It's such a hard time, but I really want people to know that God's got a purpose.
(23:15):
If you're alive and you're listening to this, this is for all listeners.
God has a purpose for your life.
No matter what's going on in your life, like there's still more to come.
For those who have not lost someone and don't understand this grief, there is sometimes this misconception that it's best not to talk about the person who has passed.
(23:35):
Just don't mention it because we don't want to bring those things up.
And yet, if we have lost someone, we know we're thinking about them anyway.
And it almost feels harsh that people around don't want to acknowledge them.
How important is it that we do actually speak at the right time and sometimes asking permission to speak about the person who has passed?
(23:55):
It's so important.
It is the most precious thing.
If people say, Hey, I have this memory of Luke.
They're like treasures when you only have a limited amount of memories and someone comes to you and they share a memory they have with them or a picture or whatever.
But we want to talk about it.
This happened to me.
I ran into an acquaintance right after Luke died and she didn't say anything.
(24:17):
So I just said it.
I don't know if you know, but Luke died and she's like, Oh yeah, I'm so sorry.
But what happens is people, they don't want to upset us or they're just so scared of the reaction.
They don't say anything, but really we have to get out of that way of being scared of what someone's going to think and say it like it means so much if somebody says something about your spouse.
(24:37):
And so don't be afraid to say it.
They might cry.
They might not, but they love it.
We love it to talk about our spouses.
And so that's another huge myth out there is that you shouldn't say anything and walk on eggshells.
No, we want to talk about our spouse.
And so normalize that, you know, that's something I did in my home right away.
What would daddy think about this?
(24:59):
What do you think daddy?
And we, we, it's a lot less now, but it's even normalized with Joel.
Like he's good with us talking about Luke.
It's really, really important that the person who lost a loved one, whether it's a spouse, a parent, a sibling, a child, anything that you allow them the space to talk about them.
They want to.
So yes, I'm very passionate about that as well.
(25:21):
You've done so much in this world of reaching out to other people through the podcast, through the book, through your nonprofit group.
I'm sure that you've had lots of people come to you and say, this has been an absolute lifesaver for me.
This has changed my life.
Are there perhaps a couple of stories of those people that have come to you and said, Michelle, this is the impact that you and your ministry has had for me.
(25:47):
Yeah, I've actually had a couple instances over the years where people said they wanted to end their life until they listened to my podcast or one girl said until she read my book to me, that was the biggest.
Okay.
I'm in the right place.
God's using me.
And the, both of them, like I said, one was podcast.
One was a book and it was a, both the same thing.
(26:09):
Like I felt alone until I knew that, you know, these things that happened to you and others in the community.
And I found your community.
I also have a really large widow community on Facebook.
Yeah.
Those things are huge.
I've had several people tell me that they have binge listened to all the episodes within a couple of months and there's 200 of them and how that is the only thing or one of the only things that helped them through it.
(26:33):
I am in awe.
It's not me.
I'm a vessel for God.
And this is where he placed me.
I never in a million years thought this was going to be what I did.
I'm have my master's in education.
I was an elementary teacher, but after Luke died, I went back for a little bit, but I was like, this isn't it anymore.
Now I'm able to do full-time ministry for widows.
And I think it's the most amazing thing to be able to do that.
(26:54):
But yeah, I'm humbled when I hear stories and I still don't fully understand the impact, but we're in 121 countries and it's just been amazing to get to meet people all over the world who say that this ministry has helped them so much.
And then as I'm watching more and more groups pop up and then they're meeting people and they're meeting people and it's, it's kind of like a domino effect.
(27:17):
We pour into people and they pour into other people.
And that's how we're able to be these vessels for God.
Just like I was talking about my friend, Stacy, who reached out to me, then our lives touch somebody else's who touch someone else's and we're able to like complete the things that God wants us to do.
So yeah, it's been an amazing journey for sure.
You've mentioned a few times that you've remarried, which is absolutely wonderful.
(27:39):
And it's great that you're able to continue to go forward.
But I know that when someone's spouse passes away, there's this idea in the community, in the wider community.
And I certainly hear it within the church of, you know, oh, that's a bit soon or actually they should wait a little bit longer.
Is that something that comes up for a lot of people who have been widowed where there is this thought of, oh no, that's too soon.
(28:02):
Or, okay, now is the time.
And how do we go through that?
Because it must put a lot of guilt on the person who is just wanting to reach out and continue to live.
Right.
It happens so much.
It's very sad.
For me, it wasn't actually anyone I knew who said that.
I do have a large following on TikTok.
And it was people that I didn't know.
(28:23):
And there were things like, you must not have loved your husband.
You know, all kinds of things.
Because I started dating Joel 18 months after Luke.
Society just doesn't understand it.
And so really, people should not give any judgments.
There's the two things that widows tell me that they face.
It's either they start dating someone and everybody goes, that's way too soon, you shouldn't do that.
(28:43):
Or it's been a year and everyone's pushing them to date and they're like, I'm not ready.
I would say to outside people, please do not tell a person, a widow or widower, like they should date or they shouldn't date.
Just let them figure it out.
There is a lot of guilt when you start dating again in the very, very beginning.
It feels weird.
Like I was with Luke for 17 years.
So being with someone else felt like you're cheating in the beginning.
(29:05):
Like it feels very strange, but you have to let go of that.
You've obviously done so much in this space, as you say, over 200 episodes of the podcast.
The book is available.
People are able to join the not-for-profit groups and be able to, to get help that way.
What is the easiest way for people to find you if they want to connect and want to hear the podcast or read the book?
(29:29):
What's the easiest way for people to find you?
Yes.
Widowgoals.org.
That pretty much has everything.
It has the cities where we have the groups.
It has a link to my podcast, my book, my emails, Michelle at widowgoals.org, which is on the website.
So that's probably the best place.
We also have, if someone is listening and they're widowed, Widowed Too Soon Community.
(29:53):
If you just search in Widowed Too Soon Community on Facebook, we have over 13,000 people.
It's a very active community and the books are on Amazon as well.
And those links are in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net, so you can head there and grab them if you miss them.
But Michelle, I want to say thank you for what you're doing.
Thank you for the many people that you've been able to walk alongside and thank you especially today for spending some time on Bleeding Daylight.
(30:21):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
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