October 26, 2025 • 34 mins
In this powerful conversation, Stacey Womack shares her 25-year journey helping survivors of domestic violence through Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services (ARMS). What began as an unexpected calling has grown into a ministry that has brought healing to over 55,000 women. Stacey opens up about the many forms abuse can take beyond physical violence, why churches often struggle to address this issue, and how faith communities can better support survivors. She also discusses the challenging but hopeful work of helping abusers change their behavior patterns.
This episode explores the complex dynamics of abusive relationships, including why survivors often return to familiar patterns and how belief systems perpetuate abuse. Stacey shares inspiring stories of transformation, both from women who have reclaimed their lives and men who have learned what love truly means. Whether you're a survivor, know someone in an abusive relationship, or are a faith leader wanting to better serve your community, this conversation offers practical wisdom, hope, and resources for creating lasting change.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome and thank you for taking the time to listen to today's episode.
There are hundreds more inspiring episodes available now at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:30):
Please take the time to share Bleeding Daylight with others.
Today's topic is a difficult one, but if it's not something that affects you directly, it's almost certain that it is touching the lives of people you know.
It's often hidden, so you may not even know who those people are.
(00:50):
Despite the discomfort, it's a conversation that we really do need to have.
I'm so excited to have Stacey Womack with me today.
For over 25 years, Stacey has been pouring her heart into helping survivors of domestic violence through her organisation Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, or ARMS. What started as a small, passionate mission in 1997 has grown into something truly beautiful, bringing healing and hope to over 45,000 women.
(01:29):
Stacey's approach combines faith-based healing with incredibly practical wisdom, and as the author of On the Front Lines of Abuse, she's sharing strategies that are genuinely changing lives.
Stacey, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much.
There's no doubt that the help you're providing is so very needed, but I'm wondering where the desire to work in such a space first began for you.
(01:54):
I'm a pastor's kid, so I grew up in the church, and I met my husband young and started a family right away.
In the midst of raising them and homeschooling, God began to speak to me about ministry beyond my family, and I really had no idea what He was calling me to.
I spent a couple of years seeking, and this was the door He opened for me, which was unusual because I am not a survivor of domestic violence.
(02:15):
I actually knew very little about domestic abuse when I started.
It really came out of my heart to be obedient to God and what God was calling me to do.
As you started to look into this area, I guess there were many things that would have surprised you that are these days unfortunately commonplace, but what were the initial steps into that space for you like?
(02:36):
My only touch with domestic violence prior to this was that my sister had married a pastor who was abusive, although being a good Christian woman, you don't talk about your husband.
And so she came to us eleven years after she married and told us she was leading him.
Unfortunately, I gave her some very unhelpful, typical kind of advice because I didn't know what I was dealing with.
(02:57):
When I stepped into this, I really had a lot of learning and growing to work on, and I guess that one of the things that really surprised me was as I began to lead a group in my own church, to have so many women who look like the perfect family involved in ministry coming up to me privately and telling me this was going on in their home.
(03:20):
I was very shocked to find out how prevalent this is, not just in the secular community, but in the faith community as well.
I think most people don't realize that abuse is not about any specific behavior like hitting.
It's about the misuse of any behavior to gain power and control.
Yeah, I want to explore a lot more of exactly what does constitute abuse in a moment, but I suppose you've touched on a couple of things there with the fact that it is still prevalent within church communities, and yet you gave that wrong advice all those years ago.
(03:56):
And I suppose that that has been the case for many years, that people in churches have given well-meaning advice, but it has been harmful.
Do you think there's a resistance in churches to look at the issue because it is so difficult?
There's a couple things.
I think there's this belief that it's not happening in my church.
(04:16):
We run into that a lot since we do a lot of trainings with pastors in the faith community.
And so if it's not a problem in their church, then there's no reason to get trained around it or really learn about it.
And then as I did trainings, there was a lot of fear, especially for smaller churches, about the division it would create within the church, because people who use abusive behaviors are very manipulative, and they're very good at convincing others that, first off, their wife is the problem.
(04:42):
And then second off, if the pastor tries to create safety for her, that the church is the problem, the pastor is the problem.
And so they can convince the entire community, and then you have this division.
So I've had pastors tell me, I'm afraid of kind of opening that can of worms.
I told them, but it's already there.
And what would Jesus do?
(05:04):
What would Jesus do in this situation?
I don't think it's because people don't care.
I really think it's because there's a lack of education.
Suppose we should say at the outset that abuse can come in many forms and from many people.
And we know that there have been cases of women who have abused men.
But what we're talking about is the fact that it is overwhelmingly men abusing against women.
(05:31):
And we need to cite that.
There's no whataboutery in this case.
That is the fact.
And as you say, abuse can take various forms.
What we immediately go to in our minds is that physical abuse.
But how else can abuse be happening in a home?
So we talk about it in eight categories.
(05:52):
Verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, property, spiritual, and animal.
Psychological is often called emotional abuse.
And for the women that we serve now, over 55,000 women, they would tell us that psychological abuse is the worst form of abuse because it can look like normal conflict, but it's really not.
And it's really hard to explain to anybody, but it still brings death to the person.
(06:15):
So there's that, the crazy-making-the-mind games, mental coercion, the stalking behaviors goes in this, the isolation goes in this.
And verbal is kind of considered normal.
Everybody does some verbal abuse.
I mean, abuse is just sin, you know?
So we've all done this.
But when someone's using a pattern of behaviors in multiple areas, if they don't ever have to be physical and still get their way, then they won't be.
(06:40):
So maybe they just have to slam doors or punch a wall or throw a phone or whatever it may be, or they control the finances or they use scripture against their partner.
Whatever it may be, the abuse just means the misuse of.
So anything can be misused to try to gain power and control or punish another person.
(07:00):
So even if there is not that physical behavior, there's still that inherent threat in the way that someone might talk to someone else or their behavior, as you say, slamming doors, building that atmosphere of tension within the home.
I'm wondering if there are many of the women that you work with who take a long time to come forward because there's this sense of, oh yes, but he never hit me.
(07:26):
Yes.
And not realizing that actually this could be destroying your life and your quality of life even more than if there was physical abuse present.
Some of the women say, I wish he would hit me so people would understand I'm being abused, but you're right.
Most people so narrowly define abuse that they wouldn't call themselves victims and actually most women who experienced abuse would never use that word.
(07:50):
They would never call themselves a victim unless they had gone to a class where they've got some language around that.
That does become a stumbling block.
And even for some women who have experienced physical violence, because their abuser has said things to them like, if you don't go to the hospital, it's not really domestic violence.
Or if I don't break a bone, it's not really domestic violence.
(08:10):
And so she becomes convinced that she's not actually being abused or they tell her that all relationships are like this, especially for the men who marry women very young, who have sometimes a big age difference.
So they have some ability to control even more so that way.
So it's really messy and complicated issue.
(08:31):
There's no one quick answer to this.
Our women's recovery group is our biggest program that we offer nationally and internationally, but we also work with men and women who use abusive behaviors.
So we have groups for them as well.
So we kind of work the whole gamut of people, whether they're in the abuse or they're doing the abuse.
When you're in a position to start explaining what abuse actually is in a setting, as you say, if a woman has come along to a class and suddenly recognizes herself in that, it must be incredibly difficult for that woman to suddenly admit to herself, I'm in an abusive relationship after trying to, I guess, deny that for years and everything's okay, everything's okay.
(09:16):
There would be a mixture of relief, but also, oh no, now I need to do something about it.
What's generally the response you get from women who come to that place of realizing this is not normal?
A lot of the women come to us because they've gotten to that place of going, they've tried everything else.
They've tried couples counseling, which doesn't work when it's domestic abuse.
(09:38):
It's a completely different situation, should be handled completely different.
But I understand why they would do that.
I would try to, because we don't get into a relationship to see it end.
What's probably more common is that they come into group and we start talking about all the different forms of abuse.
They were thinking it really wasn't that bad.
And then when we go through all these types of abuse in detail, they are like, oh my gosh, I've experienced all the forms of abuse that you've just gone through.
(10:06):
That's very hard to hear, but the groups are set up to be also very encouraging and very safe.
So the trauma-informed, before trauma-informed was a word out there, God knew what he was doing when he developed this.
It's just a safe place to hear that this isn't their fault, that they have value and it's appropriate to set boundaries.
(10:26):
And this is what God thinks about it.
And this is what God feels about their experience and has heartbreaks for them.
While you can't find the word abuse much in the Bible, the word that would be used would be oppression, because domestic abuse is really about oppression.
You mentioned that you also work with the men and sometimes the women who are doing the abusing.
(10:48):
That must be difficult for you.
Having seen the pain that it has brought for so many of the women that you work with to actually turn around and start working with someone who has caused that pain, but of course there's sin involved as well there that has caused this.
How difficult is it to turn around and attempt to love that person who you know has caused so much pain?
(11:12):
Well, you know, when we started and we were just doing the women's group and the women's recovery group, her journey, that was just growing leaps and bounds.
I thought, well, gosh, we're helping them.
What are we doing for the men who are abusing abuse?
So my husband and I began training to do that work in our state here in Oregon.
I have four sons.
(11:34):
I always feel like when they come in and I do their intake with them, I'm always thinking someone's been praying for them.
There's a reason why they're sitting in front of me.
God is giving them another opportunity to make change where they didn't get to before.
And you're right, it is hard work to do, but there's this, oh gosh, it's just such a blessing when you begin to see little breakthrough and little light bulbs going on off of guys.
(11:58):
And the guys grow in self-respect because they don't really like themselves, even though they're all very narcissistic and thinking about themselves, very selfish, self-centered.
As we teach them, what does love look like in practical terms?
How did Jesus model living out what love looks like?
How did he do that?
For the men who choose to do the very, very hard work because they have to look at themselves, they have to admit to all the horrible things they've done and how it affected those closest to them.
(12:27):
And then they work on changing belief systems that gave them permission to behave that way.
So maybe he saw her as his enemy.
He needs to see her as his ally.
Maybe he thought when she gave a suggestion that she was attacking his authority or something like that.
So we work on those underlying belief systems.
Since we've been doing this work for almost 28 years now, and I've been working with men since 2001 and they're male-female co-facilitated, my husband and I've done a lot of co-facilitating together.
(12:56):
It's just really an amazing thing.
You would think it would be really horrible, but they're people too and God has a plan for them.
If they choose not to change, then there's a consequence for that.
And it also helps the women to know, who are really hoping he will change when he comes to the program, it helps her to know whether or not she should stay or whether she should actually end the relationship, which is a very difficult decision, especially in the faith community that has taught us that divorce is never an option.
(13:27):
I don't think that God sees abuse as an adult issue.
I think he sees it as a child abuse issue.
We are his children and if our children were abused and beaten and they came home from school crying, we wouldn't think twice to go down to that school and find out who's doing that and what were they going to do to stop it.
And if they didn't stop it, we would remove our child from that situation.
(13:49):
So why would we think that a God who loves us more than our own children not want to do the same thing for us?
Now I just got to say in the midst of this though, that God is a God of reconciliation and he wants us to be people of reconciliation and I want that too, but we cannot change another person and may not change ourself enough to fix the relationship.
(14:10):
That person who is using those behaviors based on their belief systems has to make the change.
No matter how hard a victim of abuse tries, she cannot shift her behaviors to change him.
When we're talking about this sort of abuse, there are attitudes and beliefs on behalf of the abuser that would cause them to think that this is acceptable.
(14:33):
But I imagine it's even more complex than that.
What are the triggers that you have seen or what are the beliefs that people bring to a relationship that cause them to think that this is okay?
All of us have a lifetime to pick up our beliefs about relationships, God, all kinds of things.
And socially there's a lot of socialization from men that says you need to be strong, you need to be tough, you need to be in charge, and if you're not willing to do what you need to do to be in charge, you're not being a real man.
(15:06):
So even young boys at an early age learn that if they don't conform to male norms, that they'll be bullied, that they'll be picked on.
We start addressing beliefs around, I'm the man, so I'm smarter, I'm more important, where I say goes, I'm the boss.
All those kinds of things would be the types of beliefs that we work on.
(15:27):
Oftentimes the men just believe that she's literally just doing things to irritate him purposely when really that's not the case.
The women, when they're expressing themselves, even when they're doing it incorrectly, are really trying to help him understand how his behavior is impacting her and her desire to see the relationship grow healthy.
She may not know how to do that either, but she's trying to help that process even if she's not doing it correctly.
(15:51):
Now I mentioned that you've been helping in this space for 25 years, and so I'm sure that you would have seen your fair share of heartbreak, but also those stories of hope when women can be made whole again, and I'm sure that it takes quite some time.
Is there a story or two of women that you've seen come through to first of all understand what's going on for them, but then to realize who they are as someone made in God's image and as God's child?
(16:21):
Absolutely.
We have so many stories like that.
The first woman who shared at our first fundraiser, she shared her testimony.
She had separated from her husband, but fully intended to go back because it's very normal for these women to leave multiple times because they're trying to help him understand how it's impacting her, hoping it will change.
She came to this group and for the first time realized, oh my gosh, this really is what I'm dealing with, and she went through the group three different times.
(16:45):
It's 15 weeks long, but the women can join in any time and continue coming as long as they want to.
When she spoke at our banquet, she talked about even her childhood abuse.
Her brother used to sexually abuse her and bring his friends to abuse her.
She goes, they have this lesson called the F word, and the F word is forgiveness.
She goes, I really don't like that lesson, but she goes, after going through it three times, she goes, I was able to be in the same room with my brother without feeling any negative feelings towards him.
(17:12):
That's freedom.
And we have so many women who come in so broken and then they move out of the abuse and it's messy and it's hard.
And we watch them go back to school and become counselors and become nurses and CPAs and district attorney victim assistants.
We just watch this over and over again.
(17:33):
I've literally watched women come in and they look like they're physically dying.
They're thin, they're pale, they have no life in them, they don't look up, they don't speak.
And then I've just watched them come back to life and it's just this most amazing thing.
A lot of our leaders are women who were at one time participants of the program and then years later are at a healthy, stable place and able to go through our training and learn to become a leader for us.
(18:01):
We have leaders who've led for decades because we watch these women change right before our very eyes.
We do this in pregnancy centers, Union Gospel Rescue missions.
I have centers that come to me and they'll say, Stacy, we're three weeks into the lessons and the change in the women is so phenomenal.
That's why I think that even though it's a tough topic, there's so much hope in the work we do and we're actually seeing people change that it keeps us going.
(18:28):
And I think that even though working with men and women who use abusive behavior is difficult for those of us who do that, seeing those ones who do make the changes is what gives us that hope to continue doing this work because we've had some men do some amazing work and some women do some amazing work who have grown up in abuse and have used it.
(18:48):
It's very cyclical.
I would say 95 percent of our men grew up in homes where there was some level of abuse going on.
And it seems that there are patterns that need to be broken.
We are all familiar hearing of women who have married someone who has been either abusive or maybe caught up in alcoholism.
They've left that person and then they found someone who follows a similar pattern.
(19:11):
And you mentioned that lady who first came and realized what she was going through and there was abuse even in her growing up from her brother.
Have you done any work on what it is that causes us as humans to go back to the very thing that hurts us, to the very type of person that is going to abuse us or harm us in the same way?
(19:34):
Again, it's like what we know.
It feels normal to us even though I've had so many men and women say, even though I didn't like it and I've had a lot of men say, I promised myself I would never do that.
And yet it was the only tools that were given to them.
So they find themselves using the same tools that may not look exactly like their father or their mother did when they were growing up, but it's still the same belief systems and patterns and all that.
(20:00):
There's so many reasons why we are all, I think, inherently selfish and want our own way.
I think that's something that we all struggle with to some extent, but there is a lot of things that lead to that.
And I think that even for our women who get involved with abusive people, they would say, I dated like one healthy guy, but it felt odd.
(20:22):
It didn't feel right.
So they end up dating men who were like what they grew up with because it felt normal to them, even though they didn't like it, even though they knew it wasn't okay.
They would never know how to put that into words.
Why do they keep bonding themselves in these situations?
We're helping them break that cycle and gain an understanding.
And I've even had a woman in our intervention program who, she had been horribly abused in her first relationship, violent abuse.
(20:49):
And the second relationship, she was dating a healthy guy and she got arrested.
And the police had given her multiple times to step away, but she would not.
And so she came to us and as she worked on things, things calmed down in her relationship.
And she goes, I'm thinking about breaking up with him.
And I'm like, why?
And she goes, I don't know.
It just kind of feels kind of boring.
(21:11):
Cause she was used to like creating this like conflict.
Then you make up, then you know you loved.
I told her to hang in there that you got to kind of get over that hump of what felt normal to you before to create a new normal.
And she did.
And they eventually married and they have a child and they're doing well.
She almost stepped away from this one healthy man that she had in her life.
And I guess that's it.
(21:32):
It's breaking those patterns, even when it doesn't feel right.
And the overwhelming message is that change is possible, that there is a way forward.
Is that why you wrote On the Front Lines of Abuse, that you're wanting to share this message, that change is possible, that there can be a better future?
Absolutely.
It's really written to the entire community.
(21:55):
For people like me, like when I didn't know anything about it, I go through the types of abuse and the cycle of abuse in depth.
And so it's kind of like one of my trainings.
And then I talk to those who are experiencing abuse, what they can do.
I talk to those who may be using abuse and what they can do, what the general faith community can do, and then what faith leaders can do to help.
Because faith leaders or clergy are the number one place people go for help with this issue, but they've been the least helpful because they're not trained in it.
(22:23):
Not because again, they're not caring people.
My hope in this is that it would equip people to better handle this.
And it's such a little book.
It's an easy book to read.
Pastors are like, this is perfect, Stacey.
It's not so thick.
It's going to take me a long time to read.
And I had one pastor say, I had some ideas, but this gave me so many more.
I had a woman who I was doing a podcast with who is a survivor of abuse.
(22:47):
And she goes, reading her book brought a whole new level of healing to me because it just affirmed the experience that she had.
I'm wondering for those who are in a relationship where there might be abuse, and even some of the things that we've said to this point have triggered something for them to think, maybe what I'm experiencing is not normal.
(23:08):
What would your first words to them be to find help?
Obviously they could just call us, but we do have a website, abuserecovery.org.
And on there, we have like an evaluation of how healthy is your relationship.
It's kind of a checklist to see whether or not you're experiencing some things that would be signs of being in an abusive relationship.
(23:28):
If it's just one thing, see, we've all done something abusive.
We've all said something we shouldn't have said.
But if there's multiple things and it's become a pattern in the relationship, that's a real sign, okay, I do need to take some steps forward.
For our women's recovery program, we have it virtually and in person.
And so if we're not in their area, they can call in and just get the information.
(23:49):
They don't have to give us their real name.
There's no cost, there's no intake, and they can join immediately.
They don't have to wait to week one.
This way we're serving people even more internationally than we had before, because we have actually the program translated into six languages.
For those who are displaying abusive behavior, as we say, predominantly men, but for anyone who is abusing someone else and is willing to change, because I guess that's the first thing to decide, I need to start to change, or I don't like the person I've become, what would your initial thoughts be for them?
(24:26):
Is that still the same thing, to go to that site and to have a look and go through that process?
Yeah, or they could call and have a conversation with us.
Most of the men come to us because there's an outside influence saying you have to.
Very few of our men come because, oh, I have a problem.
Actually, they don't believe they're the problem, they believe their partner is the problem.
(24:48):
They come because their wives say they need to come.
Their wives are at a point of saying, I'm done.
Unless you get some help, I'm done.
We have men who come through the Community Corrections and through the Department of Human Services, that type of thing.
I would tell these men and women who call and say, hey, I think I'm using some of these behaviors, I would applaud them and say, I'm so proud of you for being courageous enough to come forward and start working on this because it's going to make a difference.
(25:17):
If you're willing to do the work, it's going to make a difference.
So they can call us, have a conversation, they could read the book.
We have all kinds of things on the websites.
We have blogs, we have testimonies of men and women who've gone through the intervention program as well.
We just want them to know that we care about people.
One of our men who just completed, he wrote up his testimony for us and he said, if I could describe the men's program, which is called Mankind, he goes, if I could describe Mankind in one word, it would be love.
(25:45):
Learning to love the way Jesus loves and love yourself and love others and do it in a correct way.
We as an organization truly care about those we're serving.
I feel like if you don't care about those people you're serving, you don't really have a right to speak into their life.
If I was a guy and I came into the program and I just felt like I was a number to you, I would just figure out what to say, not to say, and just do that and not gain anything.
(26:13):
If you know I care about you, you're more likely to accept the words that I share with you.
That's what we want them to know, is that we truly want to see them not just complete, but be successful and sustain the changes that they've made.
I suppose one of the more difficult situations to be in for some people is having a friend or a loved one, and they suspect that they are in some form of abusive relationship, whether that is physical abuse, emotional abuse, coercive control, and just not knowing quite what to do.
(26:46):
They know that if they try and step in, especially if there is coercive abuse, then the abusive partner is just going to separate that relationship and there's no opportunity to continue to speak into that person's life.
So what do we do?
How do we deal with that?
Because we want to bring healing, but it is fraught with danger, isn't it?
It is, and not just physical danger, emotional danger.
(27:09):
You don't want to say anything to the abuser.
You want to privately speak to the person, say, hey, what they just did to you, from what I've read about this, that's abusive behavior.
And they may not accept that.
They may go, no, no, no, you don't understand.
And they may even be angry at you for saying it, but you planted a seed.
But you just let them know I'm here for you.
(27:30):
I'm here for you when you're ready.
If you need help, my door is always open.
I have two daughters, and both my daughters married men who were abusive, and one was a pastor.
Here I am in the midst of doing this work, and this happened.
It was very difficult watching them and my grandchildren go through this.
They're both out of those relationships now, but a lot of damage has been done in the process.
(27:53):
I tell parents, if you want to continue having a relationship, you got to be really careful.
Even for her, she's going to defend him to the end, because she has to in order to maintain safety for herself in the relationship.
And oftentimes abusers will move them away from their families and even convince her that her family doesn't care about her, and do things like that to isolate her from her family.
(28:19):
We did everything we could just to try to keep the peace and be a safe landing place if they needed it.
I don't think we should downplay the fact that prayer matters, and prayer has power, and that God would change this other person too.
Not just praying for our child who's experiencing abuse, but praying for their partners.
(28:40):
Ultimately, the best thing would be is if he could get the help that he needs so that the whole family could heal together.
And I suppose that there's an added difficulty for a lot of women in that their husband or their partner may be the one who is bringing home most of the household funds, has the assets such as a house or whatever in their name, and there's this sense of, if I do something about it, if I lose this relationship, I lose my security, I'm out on the street.
(29:11):
How do we help someone realize that there is a way forward, even if an abusive partner wants to bring that force upon them?
That's what's so great about her journey.
And this says her journey, so it doesn't really say what it's about.
They can say they're going to a women's Bible study on emotional healing.
We can work with these women before they become homeless so that they can begin to safety plan and figure out what is out there.
(29:37):
But a lot of women, especially in the beginning stages, they remove all their options.
They think there's no way, there's absolutely no way, because there's no way to financially make it.
I have nowhere to go.
But God has a plan for them.
It is messy.
We would be lying to anybody if we told them it isn't messy.
But going through that initial stages are very messy.
(29:57):
We want to help her to see what options she has, look for the resources in the community, help her to find those resources.
Sometimes I say, just go and ask.
You don't have to do anything, you know, because they don't really want the relationships to end.
They just want the abuse to end.
Just helping them to be educated, gain that information.
(30:18):
In her journey, our leaders are not to give advice or not to tell them to leave or to stay.
We're just there to walk alongside them in their journey of discovering what is God calling them to do in their own personal situation.
So there's no pressure.
It's not even a process-based group.
The women don't have to talk at all in the group if they don't want to.
But we hit different topics that women who've experienced abuse face.
(30:39):
And I imagine someone being abused, if this pattern continues for any length of time, they can start to believe, well, this is my lot.
This is all I deserve.
This is the sort of person I am.
How difficult is it to help them see that, no, God says something different about who you are.
God says that you are precious, and we can see that in Scripture.
(31:03):
I guess it's easy enough to make that head knowledge, but how do you get that to drop into the heart of someone who has been told again and again you're worthless?
You know, that's such a great question, because that's exactly what her journey does.
We focus on their value over and over again.
And one of the most common things that we hear from women who complete the program is they say, now I don't just know that God loves me and I have value, now I believe it.
(31:28):
And when you believe you have value, you make different choices.
You start setting boundaries and following through with the consequences of those boundaries.
It's very hard to get out of abuse without the support of others, and that's why her journey is such a safe place to go and just be a part of a community, a small community of women who know what you're going through and understand what you're going through and who will pray with you.
(31:51):
That's something we do in group too, is we pray for everybody.
I think that is such a key.
I grew up in the church, and so I always knew that God loved me, I had value, but it took difficult things and God showing me His faithfulness in that for me to move it from head to heart knowledge to where I went from loving God to being in love with God.
(32:12):
And a lot of times the hard things are what bring us closer to God when we let Him do this.
I'm a very efficient person.
I like efficiency.
So I love the fact that God doesn't waste anything that we go through, no matter how dark it feels, how difficult or impossible it feels.
God doesn't waste those times.
When we're in the dark, He's there with us.
(32:34):
Our whole program is based on Psalms 23.
We have three parts, which starts with through the valley, past the shadows, and into God's light.
And that's what we're walking these women through, is they're in the dark when they come to us.
So how do we bring them past those shadows and into God's light so they can learn to live the way God intended them to live life abundantly?
(32:55):
No place in the Bible does it say, I've come that you might survive life.
It says, I've come that you may have abundant life.
That's our hope for the women, is that they'll learn that this is God's plan for them, to take what was bad and use it for good.
Stacey, there is a link to your website on the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can find you easily.
(33:15):
They can get a copy of the book on the front lines of abuse as well, and they can be in touch with you through that website.
I want to thank you for the work that you're doing.
Thank you for the time that you've spent with me today.
It's been a great conversation.
So thank you for spending time today on Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
(33:36):
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome and thank you for taking the time to listen to today's episode.
There are hundreds more inspiring episodes available now at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:30):
Please take the time to share Bleeding Daylight with others.
Today's topic is a difficult one, but if it's not something that affects you directly, it's almost certain that it is touching the lives of people you know.
It's often hidden, so you may not even know who those people are.
(00:50):
Despite the discomfort, it's a conversation that we really do need to have.
I'm so excited to have Stacey Womack with me today.
For over 25 years, Stacey has been pouring her heart into helping survivors of domestic violence through her organisation Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, or ARMS. What started as a small, passionate mission in 1997 has grown into something truly beautiful, bringing healing and hope to over 45,000 women.
(01:29):
Stacey's approach combines faith-based healing with incredibly practical wisdom, and as the author of On the Front Lines of Abuse, she's sharing strategies that are genuinely changing lives.
Stacey, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much.
There's no doubt that the help you're providing is so very needed, but I'm wondering where the desire to work in such a space first began for you.
(01:54):
I'm a pastor's kid, so I grew up in the church, and I met my husband young and started a family right away.
In the midst of raising them and homeschooling, God began to speak to me about ministry beyond my family, and I really had no idea what He was calling me to.
I spent a couple of years seeking, and this was the door He opened for me, which was unusual because I am not a survivor of domestic violence.
(02:15):
I actually knew very little about domestic abuse when I started.
It really came out of my heart to be obedient to God and what God was calling me to do.
As you started to look into this area, I guess there were many things that would have surprised you that are these days unfortunately commonplace, but what were the initial steps into that space for you like?
(02:36):
My only touch with domestic violence prior to this was that my sister had married a pastor who was abusive, although being a good Christian woman, you don't talk about your husband.
And so she came to us eleven years after she married and told us she was leading him.
Unfortunately, I gave her some very unhelpful, typical kind of advice because I didn't know what I was dealing with.
(02:57):
When I stepped into this, I really had a lot of learning and growing to work on, and I guess that one of the things that really surprised me was as I began to lead a group in my own church, to have so many women who look like the perfect family involved in ministry coming up to me privately and telling me this was going on in their home.
(03:20):
I was very shocked to find out how prevalent this is, not just in the secular community, but in the faith community as well.
I think most people don't realize that abuse is not about any specific behavior like hitting.
It's about the misuse of any behavior to gain power and control.
Yeah, I want to explore a lot more of exactly what does constitute abuse in a moment, but I suppose you've touched on a couple of things there with the fact that it is still prevalent within church communities, and yet you gave that wrong advice all those years ago.
(03:56):
And I suppose that that has been the case for many years, that people in churches have given well-meaning advice, but it has been harmful.
Do you think there's a resistance in churches to look at the issue because it is so difficult?
There's a couple things.
I think there's this belief that it's not happening in my church.
(04:16):
We run into that a lot since we do a lot of trainings with pastors in the faith community.
And so if it's not a problem in their church, then there's no reason to get trained around it or really learn about it.
And then as I did trainings, there was a lot of fear, especially for smaller churches, about the division it would create within the church, because people who use abusive behaviors are very manipulative, and they're very good at convincing others that, first off, their wife is the problem.
(04:42):
And then second off, if the pastor tries to create safety for her, that the church is the problem, the pastor is the problem.
And so they can convince the entire community, and then you have this division.
So I've had pastors tell me, I'm afraid of kind of opening that can of worms.
I told them, but it's already there.
And what would Jesus do?
(05:04):
What would Jesus do in this situation?
I don't think it's because people don't care.
I really think it's because there's a lack of education.
Suppose we should say at the outset that abuse can come in many forms and from many people.
And we know that there have been cases of women who have abused men.
But what we're talking about is the fact that it is overwhelmingly men abusing against women.
(05:31):
And we need to cite that.
There's no whataboutery in this case.
That is the fact.
And as you say, abuse can take various forms.
What we immediately go to in our minds is that physical abuse.
But how else can abuse be happening in a home?
So we talk about it in eight categories.
(05:52):
Verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, property, spiritual, and animal.
Psychological is often called emotional abuse.
And for the women that we serve now, over 55,000 women, they would tell us that psychological abuse is the worst form of abuse because it can look like normal conflict, but it's really not.
And it's really hard to explain to anybody, but it still brings death to the person.
(06:15):
So there's that, the crazy-making-the-mind games, mental coercion, the stalking behaviors goes in this, the isolation goes in this.
And verbal is kind of considered normal.
Everybody does some verbal abuse.
I mean, abuse is just sin, you know?
So we've all done this.
But when someone's using a pattern of behaviors in multiple areas, if they don't ever have to be physical and still get their way, then they won't be.
(06:40):
So maybe they just have to slam doors or punch a wall or throw a phone or whatever it may be, or they control the finances or they use scripture against their partner.
Whatever it may be, the abuse just means the misuse of.
So anything can be misused to try to gain power and control or punish another person.
(07:00):
So even if there is not that physical behavior, there's still that inherent threat in the way that someone might talk to someone else or their behavior, as you say, slamming doors, building that atmosphere of tension within the home.
I'm wondering if there are many of the women that you work with who take a long time to come forward because there's this sense of, oh yes, but he never hit me.
(07:26):
Yes.
And not realizing that actually this could be destroying your life and your quality of life even more than if there was physical abuse present.
Some of the women say, I wish he would hit me so people would understand I'm being abused, but you're right.
Most people so narrowly define abuse that they wouldn't call themselves victims and actually most women who experienced abuse would never use that word.
(07:50):
They would never call themselves a victim unless they had gone to a class where they've got some language around that.
That does become a stumbling block.
And even for some women who have experienced physical violence, because their abuser has said things to them like, if you don't go to the hospital, it's not really domestic violence.
Or if I don't break a bone, it's not really domestic violence.
(08:10):
And so she becomes convinced that she's not actually being abused or they tell her that all relationships are like this, especially for the men who marry women very young, who have sometimes a big age difference.
So they have some ability to control even more so that way.
So it's really messy and complicated issue.
(08:31):
There's no one quick answer to this.
Our women's recovery group is our biggest program that we offer nationally and internationally, but we also work with men and women who use abusive behaviors.
So we have groups for them as well.
So we kind of work the whole gamut of people, whether they're in the abuse or they're doing the abuse.
When you're in a position to start explaining what abuse actually is in a setting, as you say, if a woman has come along to a class and suddenly recognizes herself in that, it must be incredibly difficult for that woman to suddenly admit to herself, I'm in an abusive relationship after trying to, I guess, deny that for years and everything's okay, everything's okay.
(09:16):
There would be a mixture of relief, but also, oh no, now I need to do something about it.
What's generally the response you get from women who come to that place of realizing this is not normal?
A lot of the women come to us because they've gotten to that place of going, they've tried everything else.
They've tried couples counseling, which doesn't work when it's domestic abuse.
(09:38):
It's a completely different situation, should be handled completely different.
But I understand why they would do that.
I would try to, because we don't get into a relationship to see it end.
What's probably more common is that they come into group and we start talking about all the different forms of abuse.
They were thinking it really wasn't that bad.
And then when we go through all these types of abuse in detail, they are like, oh my gosh, I've experienced all the forms of abuse that you've just gone through.
(10:06):
That's very hard to hear, but the groups are set up to be also very encouraging and very safe.
So the trauma-informed, before trauma-informed was a word out there, God knew what he was doing when he developed this.
It's just a safe place to hear that this isn't their fault, that they have value and it's appropriate to set boundaries.
(10:26):
And this is what God thinks about it.
And this is what God feels about their experience and has heartbreaks for them.
While you can't find the word abuse much in the Bible, the word that would be used would be oppression, because domestic abuse is really about oppression.
You mentioned that you also work with the men and sometimes the women who are doing the abusing.
(10:48):
That must be difficult for you.
Having seen the pain that it has brought for so many of the women that you work with to actually turn around and start working with someone who has caused that pain, but of course there's sin involved as well there that has caused this.
How difficult is it to turn around and attempt to love that person who you know has caused so much pain?
(11:12):
Well, you know, when we started and we were just doing the women's group and the women's recovery group, her journey, that was just growing leaps and bounds.
I thought, well, gosh, we're helping them.
What are we doing for the men who are abusing abuse?
So my husband and I began training to do that work in our state here in Oregon.
I have four sons.
(11:34):
I always feel like when they come in and I do their intake with them, I'm always thinking someone's been praying for them.
There's a reason why they're sitting in front of me.
God is giving them another opportunity to make change where they didn't get to before.
And you're right, it is hard work to do, but there's this, oh gosh, it's just such a blessing when you begin to see little breakthrough and little light bulbs going on off of guys.
(11:58):
And the guys grow in self-respect because they don't really like themselves, even though they're all very narcissistic and thinking about themselves, very selfish, self-centered.
As we teach them, what does love look like in practical terms?
How did Jesus model living out what love looks like?
How did he do that?
For the men who choose to do the very, very hard work because they have to look at themselves, they have to admit to all the horrible things they've done and how it affected those closest to them.
(12:27):
And then they work on changing belief systems that gave them permission to behave that way.
So maybe he saw her as his enemy.
He needs to see her as his ally.
Maybe he thought when she gave a suggestion that she was attacking his authority or something like that.
So we work on those underlying belief systems.
Since we've been doing this work for almost 28 years now, and I've been working with men since 2001 and they're male-female co-facilitated, my husband and I've done a lot of co-facilitating together.
(12:56):
It's just really an amazing thing.
You would think it would be really horrible, but they're people too and God has a plan for them.
If they choose not to change, then there's a consequence for that.
And it also helps the women to know, who are really hoping he will change when he comes to the program, it helps her to know whether or not she should stay or whether she should actually end the relationship, which is a very difficult decision, especially in the faith community that has taught us that divorce is never an option.
(13:27):
I don't think that God sees abuse as an adult issue.
I think he sees it as a child abuse issue.
We are his children and if our children were abused and beaten and they came home from school crying, we wouldn't think twice to go down to that school and find out who's doing that and what were they going to do to stop it.
And if they didn't stop it, we would remove our child from that situation.
(13:49):
So why would we think that a God who loves us more than our own children not want to do the same thing for us?
Now I just got to say in the midst of this though, that God is a God of reconciliation and he wants us to be people of reconciliation and I want that too, but we cannot change another person and may not change ourself enough to fix the relationship.
(14:10):
That person who is using those behaviors based on their belief systems has to make the change.
No matter how hard a victim of abuse tries, she cannot shift her behaviors to change him.
When we're talking about this sort of abuse, there are attitudes and beliefs on behalf of the abuser that would cause them to think that this is acceptable.
(14:33):
But I imagine it's even more complex than that.
What are the triggers that you have seen or what are the beliefs that people bring to a relationship that cause them to think that this is okay?
All of us have a lifetime to pick up our beliefs about relationships, God, all kinds of things.
And socially there's a lot of socialization from men that says you need to be strong, you need to be tough, you need to be in charge, and if you're not willing to do what you need to do to be in charge, you're not being a real man.
(15:06):
So even young boys at an early age learn that if they don't conform to male norms, that they'll be bullied, that they'll be picked on.
We start addressing beliefs around, I'm the man, so I'm smarter, I'm more important, where I say goes, I'm the boss.
All those kinds of things would be the types of beliefs that we work on.
(15:27):
Oftentimes the men just believe that she's literally just doing things to irritate him purposely when really that's not the case.
The women, when they're expressing themselves, even when they're doing it incorrectly, are really trying to help him understand how his behavior is impacting her and her desire to see the relationship grow healthy.
She may not know how to do that either, but she's trying to help that process even if she's not doing it correctly.
(15:51):
Now I mentioned that you've been helping in this space for 25 years, and so I'm sure that you would have seen your fair share of heartbreak, but also those stories of hope when women can be made whole again, and I'm sure that it takes quite some time.
Is there a story or two of women that you've seen come through to first of all understand what's going on for them, but then to realize who they are as someone made in God's image and as God's child?
(16:21):
Absolutely.
We have so many stories like that.
The first woman who shared at our first fundraiser, she shared her testimony.
She had separated from her husband, but fully intended to go back because it's very normal for these women to leave multiple times because they're trying to help him understand how it's impacting her, hoping it will change.
She came to this group and for the first time realized, oh my gosh, this really is what I'm dealing with, and she went through the group three different times.
(16:45):
It's 15 weeks long, but the women can join in any time and continue coming as long as they want to.
When she spoke at our banquet, she talked about even her childhood abuse.
Her brother used to sexually abuse her and bring his friends to abuse her.
She goes, they have this lesson called the F word, and the F word is forgiveness.
She goes, I really don't like that lesson, but she goes, after going through it three times, she goes, I was able to be in the same room with my brother without feeling any negative feelings towards him.
(17:12):
That's freedom.
And we have so many women who come in so broken and then they move out of the abuse and it's messy and it's hard.
And we watch them go back to school and become counselors and become nurses and CPAs and district attorney victim assistants.
We just watch this over and over again.
(17:33):
I've literally watched women come in and they look like they're physically dying.
They're thin, they're pale, they have no life in them, they don't look up, they don't speak.
And then I've just watched them come back to life and it's just this most amazing thing.
A lot of our leaders are women who were at one time participants of the program and then years later are at a healthy, stable place and able to go through our training and learn to become a leader for us.
(18:01):
We have leaders who've led for decades because we watch these women change right before our very eyes.
We do this in pregnancy centers, Union Gospel Rescue missions.
I have centers that come to me and they'll say, Stacy, we're three weeks into the lessons and the change in the women is so phenomenal.
That's why I think that even though it's a tough topic, there's so much hope in the work we do and we're actually seeing people change that it keeps us going.
(18:28):
And I think that even though working with men and women who use abusive behavior is difficult for those of us who do that, seeing those ones who do make the changes is what gives us that hope to continue doing this work because we've had some men do some amazing work and some women do some amazing work who have grown up in abuse and have used it.
(18:48):
It's very cyclical.
I would say 95 percent of our men grew up in homes where there was some level of abuse going on.
And it seems that there are patterns that need to be broken.
We are all familiar hearing of women who have married someone who has been either abusive or maybe caught up in alcoholism.
They've left that person and then they found someone who follows a similar pattern.
(19:11):
And you mentioned that lady who first came and realized what she was going through and there was abuse even in her growing up from her brother.
Have you done any work on what it is that causes us as humans to go back to the very thing that hurts us, to the very type of person that is going to abuse us or harm us in the same way?
(19:34):
Again, it's like what we know.
It feels normal to us even though I've had so many men and women say, even though I didn't like it and I've had a lot of men say, I promised myself I would never do that.
And yet it was the only tools that were given to them.
So they find themselves using the same tools that may not look exactly like their father or their mother did when they were growing up, but it's still the same belief systems and patterns and all that.
(20:00):
There's so many reasons why we are all, I think, inherently selfish and want our own way.
I think that's something that we all struggle with to some extent, but there is a lot of things that lead to that.
And I think that even for our women who get involved with abusive people, they would say, I dated like one healthy guy, but it felt odd.
(20:22):
It didn't feel right.
So they end up dating men who were like what they grew up with because it felt normal to them, even though they didn't like it, even though they knew it wasn't okay.
They would never know how to put that into words.
Why do they keep bonding themselves in these situations?
We're helping them break that cycle and gain an understanding.
And I've even had a woman in our intervention program who, she had been horribly abused in her first relationship, violent abuse.
(20:49):
And the second relationship, she was dating a healthy guy and she got arrested.
And the police had given her multiple times to step away, but she would not.
And so she came to us and as she worked on things, things calmed down in her relationship.
And she goes, I'm thinking about breaking up with him.
And I'm like, why?
And she goes, I don't know.
It just kind of feels kind of boring.
(21:11):
Cause she was used to like creating this like conflict.
Then you make up, then you know you loved.
I told her to hang in there that you got to kind of get over that hump of what felt normal to you before to create a new normal.
And she did.
And they eventually married and they have a child and they're doing well.
She almost stepped away from this one healthy man that she had in her life.
And I guess that's it.
(21:32):
It's breaking those patterns, even when it doesn't feel right.
And the overwhelming message is that change is possible, that there is a way forward.
Is that why you wrote On the Front Lines of Abuse, that you're wanting to share this message, that change is possible, that there can be a better future?
Absolutely.
It's really written to the entire community.
(21:55):
For people like me, like when I didn't know anything about it, I go through the types of abuse and the cycle of abuse in depth.
And so it's kind of like one of my trainings.
And then I talk to those who are experiencing abuse, what they can do.
I talk to those who may be using abuse and what they can do, what the general faith community can do, and then what faith leaders can do to help.
Because faith leaders or clergy are the number one place people go for help with this issue, but they've been the least helpful because they're not trained in it.
(22:23):
Not because again, they're not caring people.
My hope in this is that it would equip people to better handle this.
And it's such a little book.
It's an easy book to read.
Pastors are like, this is perfect, Stacey.
It's not so thick.
It's going to take me a long time to read.
And I had one pastor say, I had some ideas, but this gave me so many more.
I had a woman who I was doing a podcast with who is a survivor of abuse.
(22:47):
And she goes, reading her book brought a whole new level of healing to me because it just affirmed the experience that she had.
I'm wondering for those who are in a relationship where there might be abuse, and even some of the things that we've said to this point have triggered something for them to think, maybe what I'm experiencing is not normal.
(23:08):
What would your first words to them be to find help?
Obviously they could just call us, but we do have a website, abuserecovery.org.
And on there, we have like an evaluation of how healthy is your relationship.
It's kind of a checklist to see whether or not you're experiencing some things that would be signs of being in an abusive relationship.
(23:28):
If it's just one thing, see, we've all done something abusive.
We've all said something we shouldn't have said.
But if there's multiple things and it's become a pattern in the relationship, that's a real sign, okay, I do need to take some steps forward.
For our women's recovery program, we have it virtually and in person.
And so if we're not in their area, they can call in and just get the information.
(23:49):
They don't have to give us their real name.
There's no cost, there's no intake, and they can join immediately.
They don't have to wait to week one.
This way we're serving people even more internationally than we had before, because we have actually the program translated into six languages.
For those who are displaying abusive behavior, as we say, predominantly men, but for anyone who is abusing someone else and is willing to change, because I guess that's the first thing to decide, I need to start to change, or I don't like the person I've become, what would your initial thoughts be for them?
(24:26):
Is that still the same thing, to go to that site and to have a look and go through that process?
Yeah, or they could call and have a conversation with us.
Most of the men come to us because there's an outside influence saying you have to.
Very few of our men come because, oh, I have a problem.
Actually, they don't believe they're the problem, they believe their partner is the problem.
(24:48):
They come because their wives say they need to come.
Their wives are at a point of saying, I'm done.
Unless you get some help, I'm done.
We have men who come through the Community Corrections and through the Department of Human Services, that type of thing.
I would tell these men and women who call and say, hey, I think I'm using some of these behaviors, I would applaud them and say, I'm so proud of you for being courageous enough to come forward and start working on this because it's going to make a difference.
(25:17):
If you're willing to do the work, it's going to make a difference.
So they can call us, have a conversation, they could read the book.
We have all kinds of things on the websites.
We have blogs, we have testimonies of men and women who've gone through the intervention program as well.
We just want them to know that we care about people.
One of our men who just completed, he wrote up his testimony for us and he said, if I could describe the men's program, which is called Mankind, he goes, if I could describe Mankind in one word, it would be love.
(25:45):
Learning to love the way Jesus loves and love yourself and love others and do it in a correct way.
We as an organization truly care about those we're serving.
I feel like if you don't care about those people you're serving, you don't really have a right to speak into their life.
If I was a guy and I came into the program and I just felt like I was a number to you, I would just figure out what to say, not to say, and just do that and not gain anything.
(26:13):
If you know I care about you, you're more likely to accept the words that I share with you.
That's what we want them to know, is that we truly want to see them not just complete, but be successful and sustain the changes that they've made.
I suppose one of the more difficult situations to be in for some people is having a friend or a loved one, and they suspect that they are in some form of abusive relationship, whether that is physical abuse, emotional abuse, coercive control, and just not knowing quite what to do.
(26:46):
They know that if they try and step in, especially if there is coercive abuse, then the abusive partner is just going to separate that relationship and there's no opportunity to continue to speak into that person's life.
So what do we do?
How do we deal with that?
Because we want to bring healing, but it is fraught with danger, isn't it?
It is, and not just physical danger, emotional danger.
(27:09):
You don't want to say anything to the abuser.
You want to privately speak to the person, say, hey, what they just did to you, from what I've read about this, that's abusive behavior.
And they may not accept that.
They may go, no, no, no, you don't understand.
And they may even be angry at you for saying it, but you planted a seed.
But you just let them know I'm here for you.
(27:30):
I'm here for you when you're ready.
If you need help, my door is always open.
I have two daughters, and both my daughters married men who were abusive, and one was a pastor.
Here I am in the midst of doing this work, and this happened.
It was very difficult watching them and my grandchildren go through this.
They're both out of those relationships now, but a lot of damage has been done in the process.
(27:53):
I tell parents, if you want to continue having a relationship, you got to be really careful.
Even for her, she's going to defend him to the end, because she has to in order to maintain safety for herself in the relationship.
And oftentimes abusers will move them away from their families and even convince her that her family doesn't care about her, and do things like that to isolate her from her family.
(28:19):
We did everything we could just to try to keep the peace and be a safe landing place if they needed it.
I don't think we should downplay the fact that prayer matters, and prayer has power, and that God would change this other person too.
Not just praying for our child who's experiencing abuse, but praying for their partners.
(28:40):
Ultimately, the best thing would be is if he could get the help that he needs so that the whole family could heal together.
And I suppose that there's an added difficulty for a lot of women in that their husband or their partner may be the one who is bringing home most of the household funds, has the assets such as a house or whatever in their name, and there's this sense of, if I do something about it, if I lose this relationship, I lose my security, I'm out on the street.
(29:11):
How do we help someone realize that there is a way forward, even if an abusive partner wants to bring that force upon them?
That's what's so great about her journey.
And this says her journey, so it doesn't really say what it's about.
They can say they're going to a women's Bible study on emotional healing.
We can work with these women before they become homeless so that they can begin to safety plan and figure out what is out there.
(29:37):
But a lot of women, especially in the beginning stages, they remove all their options.
They think there's no way, there's absolutely no way, because there's no way to financially make it.
I have nowhere to go.
But God has a plan for them.
It is messy.
We would be lying to anybody if we told them it isn't messy.
But going through that initial stages are very messy.
(29:57):
We want to help her to see what options she has, look for the resources in the community, help her to find those resources.
Sometimes I say, just go and ask.
You don't have to do anything, you know, because they don't really want the relationships to end.
They just want the abuse to end.
Just helping them to be educated, gain that information.
(30:18):
In her journey, our leaders are not to give advice or not to tell them to leave or to stay.
We're just there to walk alongside them in their journey of discovering what is God calling them to do in their own personal situation.
So there's no pressure.
It's not even a process-based group.
The women don't have to talk at all in the group if they don't want to.
But we hit different topics that women who've experienced abuse face.
(30:39):
And I imagine someone being abused, if this pattern continues for any length of time, they can start to believe, well, this is my lot.
This is all I deserve.
This is the sort of person I am.
How difficult is it to help them see that, no, God says something different about who you are.
God says that you are precious, and we can see that in Scripture.
(31:03):
I guess it's easy enough to make that head knowledge, but how do you get that to drop into the heart of someone who has been told again and again you're worthless?
You know, that's such a great question, because that's exactly what her journey does.
We focus on their value over and over again.
And one of the most common things that we hear from women who complete the program is they say, now I don't just know that God loves me and I have value, now I believe it.
(31:28):
And when you believe you have value, you make different choices.
You start setting boundaries and following through with the consequences of those boundaries.
It's very hard to get out of abuse without the support of others, and that's why her journey is such a safe place to go and just be a part of a community, a small community of women who know what you're going through and understand what you're going through and who will pray with you.
(31:51):
That's something we do in group too, is we pray for everybody.
I think that is such a key.
I grew up in the church, and so I always knew that God loved me, I had value, but it took difficult things and God showing me His faithfulness in that for me to move it from head to heart knowledge to where I went from loving God to being in love with God.
(32:12):
And a lot of times the hard things are what bring us closer to God when we let Him do this.
I'm a very efficient person.
I like efficiency.
So I love the fact that God doesn't waste anything that we go through, no matter how dark it feels, how difficult or impossible it feels.
God doesn't waste those times.
When we're in the dark, He's there with us.
(32:34):
Our whole program is based on Psalms 23.
We have three parts, which starts with through the valley, past the shadows, and into God's light.
And that's what we're walking these women through, is they're in the dark when they come to us.
So how do we bring them past those shadows and into God's light so they can learn to live the way God intended them to live life abundantly?
(32:55):
No place in the Bible does it say, I've come that you might survive life.
It says, I've come that you may have abundant life.
That's our hope for the women, is that they'll learn that this is God's plan for them, to take what was bad and use it for good.
Stacey, there is a link to your website on the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can find you easily.
(33:15):
They can get a copy of the book on the front lines of abuse as well, and they can be in touch with you through that website.
I want to thank you for the work that you're doing.
Thank you for the time that you've spent with me today.
It's been a great conversation.
So thank you for spending time today on Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
(33:36):
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
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