November 30, 2025 • 27 mins
In this powerful episode, Steve Rotermund shares his journey from childhood abandonment and abuse to discovering his true identity in Christ. After years of ministry, battling co-dependency, and walking away from God, Steve found transformation through Christian counselling that addressed not just behaviour but identity. His honest account of planting a church while his wife struggled with addiction, feeling like God merely tolerated him despite helping others, and finally discovering the difference between being an adoptive son and a spiritual son will resonate with anyone who's felt stuck in religious performance.
Steve now leads Walk Right Ministries, offering a fresh approach to recovery that focuses on identity in Christ rather than behaviour modification alone. Through his book "God's Imperfect Plan is Perfect" and online community, he helps others move beyond Sunday Christianity into genuine relationship with God. This conversation challenges listeners to engage deeply with Scripture, understand their union with Christ, and discover the abundant life available right now, not just in the afterlife.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Hello, I'm so pleased to welcome you to today's episode.
Hundreds more inspiring episodes are waiting for you now at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:29):
Please share Bleeding Daylight with people you know, so they can be inspired too.
It's said that a leopard can't change its spots, that while we might try to look different, we can't alter the core of who we are.
For many people who have suffered trauma, that's become a devastating reality.
But what if it's all a lie, and real transformation is possible?
(00:54):
Today's guest not only talks about his own transformation, but the invitation for everyone to experience radical change.
Today's guest has walked through some of life's deepest valleys.
Abandonment, abuse, addiction, and the weight of codependency, yet somehow found his way back to light.
(01:20):
Steve Rotermund's story isn't just about surviving, it's about discovering who you really are when everything else falls away.
From the heights of business success to the lowest points of despair, from walking away from faith to finding it again in the most unexpected moment, Steve's journey has led him to create WalkRight Ministries, and a fresh approach to recovery that centers on identity in Christ.
(01:47):
Steve, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honored to be here on your show.
While many people encounter brokenness in various ways throughout their lives, your life was marked by loss at a very early age.
Tell me about what you faced as a young boy.
Yeah, I was abandoned by my real mother at the age of four.
(02:08):
My father, growing up off and on, was an alcoholic.
Loved me the best he could, but unfortunately through a lot of, you're not going to amount to anything, you're worthless, and giving me that less-than feeling we're already born with, he just added to it.
At the age of six, I was sexually molested in a construction trailer by a neighbor for a season.
(02:30):
Already having that less-than feeling, he told us that, hey, you're going to get in a lot of trouble if we tell anybody.
So, knowing how my dad was and how much trouble I knew that I would get in, I didn't say a word, and I didn't say a word to anybody until I was in Christian counseling 40 years later.
And when you look at those markers on your life in those very early days, I suppose we only know what we know.
(02:56):
So, was it all those years later in Christian counseling that you realized that that kind of upbringing is not what we would term as normal?
Because that would have just been what you would have expected, because that's all you had ever experienced.
Correct.
Even beyond that, I married a lady and thought it was heavenly bliss, and she ended up being a drug addict herself.
(03:20):
Couldn't face her demons and puts a whole skew of things in an already lost identity, if I could put it that way.
When I'm in counseling later, looking back on all that, it's why I actually wrote a book called God's Imperfect Plan is Perfect.
It connects all those dots where God was.
(03:41):
We think that God's got this great plan for us.
We're going to live in a yellow house, and we're going to have a dog named Boomer, and we're going to have three kids, and we're going to work at the accounting firm that we want to work at.
What happens when you got a blue house, and your wife wants a cat, and you're working at the gas station?
You're like, okay, well, God's not very nice to me, and his plan kind of sucked for me.
(04:05):
I didn't choose to have any of those items happen to me, but they did.
It was finally getting freed and connecting all those dots through counseling that I saw that he was there, and this was part of an ultimate plan of restoration.
There were steps along the way during your life where you came to faith in Christ, but I guess not having that understanding, you were coming to a God that you didn't quite understand, and no one can fully understand God, obviously, but you would have had a very skewed idea of who God was in those early days of faith, wouldn't you?
(04:43):
Yes.
As many of us do that have some kind of trauma in our lives, we view our heavenly father as we did our earthly father.
I thought he tolerates me, but he's out here just waiting for me to mess up so he can bring his anger towards me.
That wasn't the case.
I came forward at the age of 21, found the Lord, and he awoken me to the fact that he's real and he's here.
(05:06):
In early nineties, I don't know if you remember the Promise Keepers.
Yeah.
That men's movement.
I went to one of those and just became involved in promise keepers and traveling around helping them and come home, and I'd be like, man, I'm going to preach like this someday.
I'm going to change people's lives like this one day, and then life happens.
You turn and self-centeredness takes over and you start, oh, my business has taken off.
(05:30):
I'm going to go make money, and then I'll get back to God when I have time.
It's just because our idea of who he is is skewed from the beginning.
Where that skewing is actually informs what we're involved in, and as you mentioned, that time with promise keepers.
Now, promise keepers was a great idea of men being able to keep each other accountable, ensuring that our walk with the Lord continues well, but I guess coming from your perspective, it probably seemed more like, actually, I have to perform.
(06:02):
I have to do the right things rather than I want to serve God, and therefore, I want to stay accountable.
So, you would have even come to a movement like promise keepers from a very different perspective of trying to live up to the expectation of the angry God just in the same way as you try to live up to the expectation of your angry dad.
(06:24):
Yes, exactly the same.
I always relate people back to the fall of Adam and Eve.
What happened?
I believe they lost their identity in who they were, who they were created to be.
As we move forward and had that handed down to us and then add our own trauma and then our own mistakes that we make, we make bad choices that have bad consequences.
All that gets played into how you picture God.
(06:46):
Are you shameful?
Are you afraid to approach him?
I got called into ministry in later part of my life, and I became a pastor, became a children's pastor, ended up being a Christian counselor, helped other people, and went out and planted a church and started a church all while my wife was an addict.
Now, I loved helping people and telling them about Jesus, but I still at that point in my life felt like he didn't care about me and he didn't like me.
(07:13):
I was selling stuff I didn't believe in.
You know, you get to that point to where you just start questioning everything.
And it was just so shameful and so hurtful to watch my wife pass out, nodding off in the front row of the church I planted that I just, I had to hand it over to another church.
Her and I took off.
I quit ministry.
I walked away from God and just was so shameful.
(07:37):
And I'm like, if you're not going to handle this or take care of this and fix this, I will.
And that's where my codependency just blew up.
There seems to be a common thread through this.
I've certainly heard from many people and that is, I understand the scriptures.
I understand that God loves everyone, but probably not me.
Or at best, as you've said, he tolerates me.
(08:00):
Why do you think it is that we don't fully accept what we see in others?
We accept that God loves people, that he lavishes his love on everyone, but I'm different and he can't love me.
Why do you think that is?
Because the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy.
You could go to church every Sunday.
(08:20):
You could be in ministry.
You could pray.
The devil doesn't mind that you do all that.
He knows he's already lost and he doesn't care that you love God.
But if he can keep you from shining and he can keep you from loving and keep you in that less than situation, he wins.
Just to be blunt, that's why we have so many people in church that still aren't transformed.
(08:42):
I came to know the Lord in 91.
Well, in 2000, I was still a jerk.
I'd still call my wife and belittle her because of the addiction.
And I'd take my anger out on my kids because I didn't know how to handle the emotions.
I mean, I wasn't transformed, not one single bit, but I had that ticket in my pocket.
And oftentimes we just see it like that.
(09:03):
We have got our ticket to something in the afterlife, not recognizing that scripture calls us to live an abundant life right here and now.
Where was the moment that you started to see that things could be different?
A friend of mine talked me into going to a Christian counselor.
And I was like, I don't need a Christian counselor.
(09:23):
I've got this.
I'll fix her.
He was like, no, you need to really go.
So I, I went, it's a funny story because in the first 15 minutes I was there, he was like, you're part of the problem.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, I'm paying you.
And what are we talking about here?
Cause I hired you to help me tell my wife how wrong she was.
(09:44):
And I was going to be the savior and hero for fixing her.
And you were going to help me.
He's like, no, you're codependent.
You're just as bad off as she is.
Wow.
And so I started to study codependency.
What that was after I left that day, I was never going to go back.
And when I started connecting all the dots of my relationships, I was like, wow, this guy's right on.
And I went back and a few weeks later he said, you need to find your identity in Jesus Christ.
(10:11):
And I said, what?
I said, I was a pastor for years.
I know who Jesus is.
And he's like, no, he's like, you need to find your identity.
And we went down that road and that journey.
It's basically moving from the adoptive son feeling to a spiritual son.
Before I felt, Hey, I kind of live here, but can I get a milk from the refrigerator?
(10:33):
Is that okay?
Father to where now it's like, Hey dad, I'm going to get some milk.
You want some?
Because it's just a mindset.
It's a mind shift.
We hear all the phrases, the churchy phrases all the time.
It's a change of mind.
It's a stepping out.
It's a renewal of who you are.
And I didn't know that until we started going down that road.
(10:55):
And then it hit me when it says, John 14, nine and 10 in that day, you know that I'm in the father, the father's in me and we're living this life in you.
And once I realized it was a union that God wasn't over here, Jesus was sneaking me in the back door.
Cause I smelled and the Holy spirit is floating around everywhere.
(11:19):
Like my Butler, when I realized that he just intertwines in every single part of our day, my life started to change.
And that was the point that I realized that this was real and I was loved and I was good enough and I was Holy and righteous and blameless in his eyes.
And he didn't look at any of my past as a failure on me.
(11:43):
He just loved me for where I was and who I am.
I'm sure you'd be the first to admit that the job isn't done yet.
That God is still working in your life to take you to newer and newer understandings of who you are in him.
But I'm sure that there are people listening at the moment thinking, Hey, yeah, I've, I've been in church for years too.
(12:04):
And I still have that feeling.
So this must give people enormous hope to know that there is transformation, no matter how long you've been around church, no matter how long you've been around faith, that there is something else.
And it's not from any program or anything like that.
It is simply from understanding who the scriptures say that we are.
(12:25):
What are the first steps that people can take to start fully understanding that?
Read the Bible yourself.
Don't just go off to what the pastor says and put the Bible down and then pick it up next Sunday.
When you go to church to read those verses again, read the Bible, let the spirit speak to you.
There's all kinds of golden nuggets in there.
(12:45):
Even as a pastor and going through a theology school, some of the stuff that I read now, we would never touch on and preach from a pulpit, the union, the non-behavior modification, because we want to put people in place to keep them coming back and to keep them getting better, which is good.
Don't get me wrong, but free is free.
(13:07):
You're right.
I can sit here and wait to go to heaven and never be transformed.
And heaven's going to be a great place.
Don't get me wrong, but didn't Jesus come and say the kingdoms now?
And aren't we supposed to blend heaven and earth now in that abundant life and that living waters and that all that?
(13:27):
Unfortunately, we're just not preaching that today.
So start with your Bible.
Just read your Bible and let him open your eyes of your heart.
There has been research done that says that if we interact, not just reading, but interacting with our scripture once or twice or even three times a week, it's not really going to have much in effect, but four times or more a week.
(13:50):
And God starts using that in a way that radically changes our behavior.
And I would imagine that many people that have been around church for many years know that to be the case and yet are still not engaging with the scriptures on a daily basis or four or five or six times a week.
(14:12):
Why do you think we're so resistant to reading the scriptures when we know what good it will do us?
I think number one is you have to have the ability to want to.
And I think we have come to this place of lax or just lax about what the word says.
And we just trust the preacher preaching to us and we've said the prayer.
(14:36):
So we feel secure.
We feel like he doesn't judge us so we can just sit back and take this right out.
That's reason number one.
Reason number two is that wrong feeling of him.
Some people are shameful to go read the Bible because they're afraid to try to get closer because they feel that they're going to even be more shamed and pushed away even further or how they feel.
(14:57):
I think those are two of the biggest reasons.
In your case, there are some obvious traumas in your life that had caused the disconnect, the wrong understanding of God.
But I would imagine that there are many, many people who have suffered a trauma that isn't quite so obvious that still gives them a wrong impression of God.
(15:20):
And I know that the answer is to read scripture, get a better understanding of God, but it's more than just reading.
It is that engaging.
How do we start to go beyond reading words on a page and making that come alive in our life?
It's having that relationship.
And I'm not talking the relationship where you have an hour and a half on a Sunday and maybe 15 second prayer before dinner and maybe a 15 second prayer before bed.
(15:50):
We have to move beyond that.
We have to actually work in a relationship.
I assume you're married.
Yes.
Yeah.
I'm married too.
How great of a relationship would you have with your wife?
You saw her on Sunday for two hours and maybe 30 seconds, you talked to her on the phone.
It wouldn't be a really deep and connecting relationship, would it?
So what words are coming off a may not be getting from the spirit at that point.
(16:12):
You can get through prayer in quiet time.
We used to think prayer was, Oh God, can you give me this?
Can you get me through the day?
Can you do this?
Can I have this protect all this stuff?
And it's like, wait a minute, we got an inheritance.
We don't need travel mercies.
We don't need more protected.
Right?
So what is prayer life then?
It's father.
Thank you for loving me.
(16:34):
Thank you that you look at me blameless.
You start speaking those truths of who he created you to be.
That's the communion he wants.
That's the prayers.
And then of course you can ask him for things that he's put on your heart that you want.
I find most of my time connecting with father is journaling.
I'll journal every single day.
(16:54):
Oh, I try to do it every day.
I'll ask questions.
Father, what can you tell me today about this?
And sometimes he answers me.
Sometimes he doesn't.
But when he doesn't, I don't just stop there.
I go, okay, let's talk to Steve as if Jesus was talking to Steve.
And then you just say something positive that is in the Bible.
(17:15):
And that really ignites that relationship.
It's just hard to take that step.
I'm not a guy that goes to work out at the gym, but I know that, you know, my weakness is a cheeseburger, but I know that if you want to work out and have a strong body, you have to really work hard at it.
I'm telling you, the relationship with God is the same way.
(17:37):
He's already there fully committed.
We have to move into that moment to be fully committed as well.
We are commanded in scripture that we are to share the good news of Jesus Christ with others, that we are to disciple the nations.
Do you think that often we don't really do a lot in that area because we're not convinced ourselves that it is good news, that we haven't come into that relationship understanding who we are, who God is.
(18:05):
And so if we're not convinced it's good news, we're not going to share that good news with others.
Correct.
We think it's the job of the leaders at the church.
That's their job.
They're here to teach us and disciple us.
No, you're supposed to go love on the person at the gas station every single day that you're in there to a point to where they're like, what is so different about you?
(18:29):
Well, let me tell you why.
Let me tell you about Jesus because he thinks you're awesome.
That's creating the start of disciples.
And obviously you started home with your kids and your family and you, you move out, you know, I don't know if you have neighbors that you talk to, but it's all our responsibility.
And it's a matter of, again, going back to that understanding of why we're here.
(18:54):
Why are we here?
Is it to get out of here?
Why are we so, why are we in such a hurry to get out of here?
We're here to love and be light.
That's it.
That's all that Jesus said.
Love God with everything you got and then let that love transform you so you love your neighbor as much as you love yourself now.
Simple.
We make it so complicated.
You have put your experiences to work for others in helping others with walk right ministries.
(19:21):
Tell me a little about walk right ministries.
After he told me to write a book, he said, all that journaling, all that pain, why don't you go ahead and write a book?
And I don't think I wrote a book to be a number one seller.
I think I wrote a book to heal that seven year old, six year old child that was molested in that shack.
I think it was the final chapter for me.
(19:43):
Although it's a great story.
God's imperfect plan is perfect.
It is perfect.
We may not think of it, but now that we can look back on it, it is.
So that started the ministry and I didn't felt led to go back to pastoring and leading a church.
I felt more led into one-on-one discipleship, loving on people, getting people unstuck.
(20:06):
So that's why I went to school for coaching, Christian coaching.
I'm involved at celebrate recovery at my church and I'm involved heavily with that.
And I sat in a parking lot one night just praying and cause I just, you know, celebrate recovery is really good.
Don't get me wrong.
But I pray afterwards and be like, man, these people are stuck.
(20:26):
They're just still stuck.
And he says, why don't you create an online community, a 12 step program that just is fully alive.
So I created a 12 step program and the identity of who you are.
It doesn't pound you with the behavior modification.
You have to stop what you're doing and surrender to God, which is great.
(20:48):
Don't get me wrong.
But let's work on what transforms the inside.
So you want to stop doing what you're doing because we can stop three days, three months, three years, but eventually we're going to go right back to it because we didn't change what was inside.
That's where that came from.
So now I've got the community.
I go around and speak and try to speak at recovery groups and try to speak at churches about everything that we've talked about.
(21:13):
And then I just started a podcast myself.
I don't interview anybody.
It's just a story of maybe my life or somebody I know related to the Bible.
And it's just a 13, 15 minute devotional.
I just launched all of this and we'll see where God wants to take it.
I fully believe that I don't step into anything now unless he's ahead of me.
(21:34):
When you get all those green lights, you go.
It's not going to be self-centered this time.
What's been the response to your book?
God's imperfect plan is perfect for those who have had the opportunity to read it.
What's the feedback being?
Most people are like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know you never went through that.
And it's like, well, yeah, it's not something you post and he keep all that hidden.
(21:59):
The thing I talk about is the kingdom here and now and the transforming.
That's the eye opening part that people are getting to.
When you realize that we were made before the foundations of the earth and had a relationship and then lost that idea of the relationship through Adam and Eve.
(22:19):
And then coming back to know that it was all reconciled by the blood of Jesus.
Why are we still sitting in the old self?
The Bible talks about it all in the new Testament.
Get out of the old self, get into the new self, the new life.
You don't have to wear this old skin anymore.
It's been taken care of, but we'd like to wear the old jacket still.
(22:40):
But that's the biggest response I'm getting.
I think that's the key too.
We know of people that have been telling their same testimony story and testimonies are absolutely powerful, but they've been telling their same testimony story for year after year after year, but it's not actually leading people towards something new.
And that's your intent with the book.
(23:01):
It's like, this is what I've been through.
Here is the testimony of the trauma that I experienced, but more importantly, I've come through and here are the ways that you can as well.
That must be such a relief for people to start to realize that there is a way forward, that there is a different way of knowing God.
(23:24):
And it's not a secret that you're trying to say it's Jesus and, but you're saying this is about Jesus and it's right there plainly in the scriptures.
That's your story, isn't it?
Yeah.
Get out of the way.
We want to get in the way.
Why do you think there's 44,000 denominations?
Because we want to be right on everything and we disagree and we do everything against what the Bible says to do.
(23:48):
Can you imagine if everybody was on the same page, how different the world would be?
You just got to get out of the way.
Just start with reading the Bible.
Once you find one golden nugget that the spirit lays on your heart, you go searching around for more and you get more and more.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I never knew this was in here.
I never knew this was in here.
(24:09):
I just read over it.
You say that Walk Right Ministries is an online platform.
So that's good news because we know that this podcast is going out to dozens of countries.
It means that people, wherever they are in the world, if they're listening and thinking, I want to find what Steve has found, they have that opportunity.
(24:30):
They can actually connect with you through the website and the links to that are in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net.
I guess that would be your encouragement to people to, first of all, connect with you.
I know that your main encouragement is get into the scriptures because God will speak to you.
But if people are feeling stuck and they need that person to walk alongside, you have the opportunity to do that through that ministry, don't you?
(24:56):
Yes.
You can look at the coaching aspect.
You can just reach out and send me an email.
I'll be more than happy to reply to you.
The community's on there.
If you want me to come speak that maybe you're excited about this and you want everybody to hear about it, then find that on the page as well.
But the community is probably the foundation because an online community is not about me.
(25:18):
I explain it this way.
I'm the host of the party and I want everybody to come into this community and love on each other.
And they're having such a great time that I can go upstairs and just go to bed.
I just happen to facilitate the step studies, the live events, the stuff in the devotions and stuff like that.
But they can progress through all the lessons themselves, the step studies, the principles, the video lessons, all that themselves, and then speak to other people and connect with other people that have the same issues they have.
(25:47):
And then they can disciple each other and grow each other.
And I'm just feeding them nuggets here and there.
The book God's Imperfect Plan is Perfect is available in the usual places such as Amazon.
And I'm sure that there's a link to it on your website as well so that people can grab a copy of it.
We've only just really scratched the surface of your whole story, but it's more an invitation for people to encounter God, for people to find their own identity in Christ rather than in their past, in the things that they may have suffered or experienced.
(26:22):
Steve, I just want to say thank you for what you're doing in allowing people to discover who they are, who Christ is, and their identity there.
And thank you so much for spending some time with us today on Bleeding Daylight.
I am honored to be here.
I've listened to the show, which sent me down a rabbit hole to watch you preaching.
(26:44):
And man, can you throw that word out.
So kudos to you.
You're a blessed man.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
(27:10):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Hello, I'm so pleased to welcome you to today's episode.
Hundreds more inspiring episodes are waiting for you now at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:29):
Please share Bleeding Daylight with people you know, so they can be inspired too.
It's said that a leopard can't change its spots, that while we might try to look different, we can't alter the core of who we are.
For many people who have suffered trauma, that's become a devastating reality.
But what if it's all a lie, and real transformation is possible?
(00:54):
Today's guest not only talks about his own transformation, but the invitation for everyone to experience radical change.
Today's guest has walked through some of life's deepest valleys.
Abandonment, abuse, addiction, and the weight of codependency, yet somehow found his way back to light.
(01:20):
Steve Rotermund's story isn't just about surviving, it's about discovering who you really are when everything else falls away.
From the heights of business success to the lowest points of despair, from walking away from faith to finding it again in the most unexpected moment, Steve's journey has led him to create WalkRight Ministries, and a fresh approach to recovery that centers on identity in Christ.
(01:47):
Steve, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honored to be here on your show.
While many people encounter brokenness in various ways throughout their lives, your life was marked by loss at a very early age.
Tell me about what you faced as a young boy.
Yeah, I was abandoned by my real mother at the age of four.
(02:08):
My father, growing up off and on, was an alcoholic.
Loved me the best he could, but unfortunately through a lot of, you're not going to amount to anything, you're worthless, and giving me that less-than feeling we're already born with, he just added to it.
At the age of six, I was sexually molested in a construction trailer by a neighbor for a season.
(02:30):
Already having that less-than feeling, he told us that, hey, you're going to get in a lot of trouble if we tell anybody.
So, knowing how my dad was and how much trouble I knew that I would get in, I didn't say a word, and I didn't say a word to anybody until I was in Christian counseling 40 years later.
And when you look at those markers on your life in those very early days, I suppose we only know what we know.
(02:56):
So, was it all those years later in Christian counseling that you realized that that kind of upbringing is not what we would term as normal?
Because that would have just been what you would have expected, because that's all you had ever experienced.
Correct.
Even beyond that, I married a lady and thought it was heavenly bliss, and she ended up being a drug addict herself.
(03:20):
Couldn't face her demons and puts a whole skew of things in an already lost identity, if I could put it that way.
When I'm in counseling later, looking back on all that, it's why I actually wrote a book called God's Imperfect Plan is Perfect.
It connects all those dots where God was.
(03:41):
We think that God's got this great plan for us.
We're going to live in a yellow house, and we're going to have a dog named Boomer, and we're going to have three kids, and we're going to work at the accounting firm that we want to work at.
What happens when you got a blue house, and your wife wants a cat, and you're working at the gas station?
You're like, okay, well, God's not very nice to me, and his plan kind of sucked for me.
(04:05):
I didn't choose to have any of those items happen to me, but they did.
It was finally getting freed and connecting all those dots through counseling that I saw that he was there, and this was part of an ultimate plan of restoration.
There were steps along the way during your life where you came to faith in Christ, but I guess not having that understanding, you were coming to a God that you didn't quite understand, and no one can fully understand God, obviously, but you would have had a very skewed idea of who God was in those early days of faith, wouldn't you?
(04:43):
Yes.
As many of us do that have some kind of trauma in our lives, we view our heavenly father as we did our earthly father.
I thought he tolerates me, but he's out here just waiting for me to mess up so he can bring his anger towards me.
That wasn't the case.
I came forward at the age of 21, found the Lord, and he awoken me to the fact that he's real and he's here.
(05:06):
In early nineties, I don't know if you remember the Promise Keepers.
Yeah.
That men's movement.
I went to one of those and just became involved in promise keepers and traveling around helping them and come home, and I'd be like, man, I'm going to preach like this someday.
I'm going to change people's lives like this one day, and then life happens.
You turn and self-centeredness takes over and you start, oh, my business has taken off.
(05:30):
I'm going to go make money, and then I'll get back to God when I have time.
It's just because our idea of who he is is skewed from the beginning.
Where that skewing is actually informs what we're involved in, and as you mentioned, that time with promise keepers.
Now, promise keepers was a great idea of men being able to keep each other accountable, ensuring that our walk with the Lord continues well, but I guess coming from your perspective, it probably seemed more like, actually, I have to perform.
(06:02):
I have to do the right things rather than I want to serve God, and therefore, I want to stay accountable.
So, you would have even come to a movement like promise keepers from a very different perspective of trying to live up to the expectation of the angry God just in the same way as you try to live up to the expectation of your angry dad.
(06:24):
Yes, exactly the same.
I always relate people back to the fall of Adam and Eve.
What happened?
I believe they lost their identity in who they were, who they were created to be.
As we move forward and had that handed down to us and then add our own trauma and then our own mistakes that we make, we make bad choices that have bad consequences.
All that gets played into how you picture God.
(06:46):
Are you shameful?
Are you afraid to approach him?
I got called into ministry in later part of my life, and I became a pastor, became a children's pastor, ended up being a Christian counselor, helped other people, and went out and planted a church and started a church all while my wife was an addict.
Now, I loved helping people and telling them about Jesus, but I still at that point in my life felt like he didn't care about me and he didn't like me.
(07:13):
I was selling stuff I didn't believe in.
You know, you get to that point to where you just start questioning everything.
And it was just so shameful and so hurtful to watch my wife pass out, nodding off in the front row of the church I planted that I just, I had to hand it over to another church.
Her and I took off.
I quit ministry.
I walked away from God and just was so shameful.
(07:37):
And I'm like, if you're not going to handle this or take care of this and fix this, I will.
And that's where my codependency just blew up.
There seems to be a common thread through this.
I've certainly heard from many people and that is, I understand the scriptures.
I understand that God loves everyone, but probably not me.
Or at best, as you've said, he tolerates me.
(08:00):
Why do you think it is that we don't fully accept what we see in others?
We accept that God loves people, that he lavishes his love on everyone, but I'm different and he can't love me.
Why do you think that is?
Because the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy.
You could go to church every Sunday.
(08:20):
You could be in ministry.
You could pray.
The devil doesn't mind that you do all that.
He knows he's already lost and he doesn't care that you love God.
But if he can keep you from shining and he can keep you from loving and keep you in that less than situation, he wins.
Just to be blunt, that's why we have so many people in church that still aren't transformed.
(08:42):
I came to know the Lord in 91.
Well, in 2000, I was still a jerk.
I'd still call my wife and belittle her because of the addiction.
And I'd take my anger out on my kids because I didn't know how to handle the emotions.
I mean, I wasn't transformed, not one single bit, but I had that ticket in my pocket.
And oftentimes we just see it like that.
(09:03):
We have got our ticket to something in the afterlife, not recognizing that scripture calls us to live an abundant life right here and now.
Where was the moment that you started to see that things could be different?
A friend of mine talked me into going to a Christian counselor.
And I was like, I don't need a Christian counselor.
(09:23):
I've got this.
I'll fix her.
He was like, no, you need to really go.
So I, I went, it's a funny story because in the first 15 minutes I was there, he was like, you're part of the problem.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, I'm paying you.
And what are we talking about here?
Cause I hired you to help me tell my wife how wrong she was.
(09:44):
And I was going to be the savior and hero for fixing her.
And you were going to help me.
He's like, no, you're codependent.
You're just as bad off as she is.
Wow.
And so I started to study codependency.
What that was after I left that day, I was never going to go back.
And when I started connecting all the dots of my relationships, I was like, wow, this guy's right on.
And I went back and a few weeks later he said, you need to find your identity in Jesus Christ.
(10:11):
And I said, what?
I said, I was a pastor for years.
I know who Jesus is.
And he's like, no, he's like, you need to find your identity.
And we went down that road and that journey.
It's basically moving from the adoptive son feeling to a spiritual son.
Before I felt, Hey, I kind of live here, but can I get a milk from the refrigerator?
(10:33):
Is that okay?
Father to where now it's like, Hey dad, I'm going to get some milk.
You want some?
Because it's just a mindset.
It's a mind shift.
We hear all the phrases, the churchy phrases all the time.
It's a change of mind.
It's a stepping out.
It's a renewal of who you are.
And I didn't know that until we started going down that road.
(10:55):
And then it hit me when it says, John 14, nine and 10 in that day, you know that I'm in the father, the father's in me and we're living this life in you.
And once I realized it was a union that God wasn't over here, Jesus was sneaking me in the back door.
Cause I smelled and the Holy spirit is floating around everywhere.
(11:19):
Like my Butler, when I realized that he just intertwines in every single part of our day, my life started to change.
And that was the point that I realized that this was real and I was loved and I was good enough and I was Holy and righteous and blameless in his eyes.
And he didn't look at any of my past as a failure on me.
(11:43):
He just loved me for where I was and who I am.
I'm sure you'd be the first to admit that the job isn't done yet.
That God is still working in your life to take you to newer and newer understandings of who you are in him.
But I'm sure that there are people listening at the moment thinking, Hey, yeah, I've, I've been in church for years too.
(12:04):
And I still have that feeling.
So this must give people enormous hope to know that there is transformation, no matter how long you've been around church, no matter how long you've been around faith, that there is something else.
And it's not from any program or anything like that.
It is simply from understanding who the scriptures say that we are.
(12:25):
What are the first steps that people can take to start fully understanding that?
Read the Bible yourself.
Don't just go off to what the pastor says and put the Bible down and then pick it up next Sunday.
When you go to church to read those verses again, read the Bible, let the spirit speak to you.
There's all kinds of golden nuggets in there.
(12:45):
Even as a pastor and going through a theology school, some of the stuff that I read now, we would never touch on and preach from a pulpit, the union, the non-behavior modification, because we want to put people in place to keep them coming back and to keep them getting better, which is good.
Don't get me wrong, but free is free.
(13:07):
You're right.
I can sit here and wait to go to heaven and never be transformed.
And heaven's going to be a great place.
Don't get me wrong, but didn't Jesus come and say the kingdoms now?
And aren't we supposed to blend heaven and earth now in that abundant life and that living waters and that all that?
(13:27):
Unfortunately, we're just not preaching that today.
So start with your Bible.
Just read your Bible and let him open your eyes of your heart.
There has been research done that says that if we interact, not just reading, but interacting with our scripture once or twice or even three times a week, it's not really going to have much in effect, but four times or more a week.
(13:50):
And God starts using that in a way that radically changes our behavior.
And I would imagine that many people that have been around church for many years know that to be the case and yet are still not engaging with the scriptures on a daily basis or four or five or six times a week.
(14:12):
Why do you think we're so resistant to reading the scriptures when we know what good it will do us?
I think number one is you have to have the ability to want to.
And I think we have come to this place of lax or just lax about what the word says.
And we just trust the preacher preaching to us and we've said the prayer.
(14:36):
So we feel secure.
We feel like he doesn't judge us so we can just sit back and take this right out.
That's reason number one.
Reason number two is that wrong feeling of him.
Some people are shameful to go read the Bible because they're afraid to try to get closer because they feel that they're going to even be more shamed and pushed away even further or how they feel.
(14:57):
I think those are two of the biggest reasons.
In your case, there are some obvious traumas in your life that had caused the disconnect, the wrong understanding of God.
But I would imagine that there are many, many people who have suffered a trauma that isn't quite so obvious that still gives them a wrong impression of God.
(15:20):
And I know that the answer is to read scripture, get a better understanding of God, but it's more than just reading.
It is that engaging.
How do we start to go beyond reading words on a page and making that come alive in our life?
It's having that relationship.
And I'm not talking the relationship where you have an hour and a half on a Sunday and maybe 15 second prayer before dinner and maybe a 15 second prayer before bed.
(15:50):
We have to move beyond that.
We have to actually work in a relationship.
I assume you're married.
Yes.
Yeah.
I'm married too.
How great of a relationship would you have with your wife?
You saw her on Sunday for two hours and maybe 30 seconds, you talked to her on the phone.
It wouldn't be a really deep and connecting relationship, would it?
So what words are coming off a may not be getting from the spirit at that point.
(16:12):
You can get through prayer in quiet time.
We used to think prayer was, Oh God, can you give me this?
Can you get me through the day?
Can you do this?
Can I have this protect all this stuff?
And it's like, wait a minute, we got an inheritance.
We don't need travel mercies.
We don't need more protected.
Right?
So what is prayer life then?
It's father.
Thank you for loving me.
(16:34):
Thank you that you look at me blameless.
You start speaking those truths of who he created you to be.
That's the communion he wants.
That's the prayers.
And then of course you can ask him for things that he's put on your heart that you want.
I find most of my time connecting with father is journaling.
I'll journal every single day.
(16:54):
Oh, I try to do it every day.
I'll ask questions.
Father, what can you tell me today about this?
And sometimes he answers me.
Sometimes he doesn't.
But when he doesn't, I don't just stop there.
I go, okay, let's talk to Steve as if Jesus was talking to Steve.
And then you just say something positive that is in the Bible.
(17:15):
And that really ignites that relationship.
It's just hard to take that step.
I'm not a guy that goes to work out at the gym, but I know that, you know, my weakness is a cheeseburger, but I know that if you want to work out and have a strong body, you have to really work hard at it.
I'm telling you, the relationship with God is the same way.
(17:37):
He's already there fully committed.
We have to move into that moment to be fully committed as well.
We are commanded in scripture that we are to share the good news of Jesus Christ with others, that we are to disciple the nations.
Do you think that often we don't really do a lot in that area because we're not convinced ourselves that it is good news, that we haven't come into that relationship understanding who we are, who God is.
(18:05):
And so if we're not convinced it's good news, we're not going to share that good news with others.
Correct.
We think it's the job of the leaders at the church.
That's their job.
They're here to teach us and disciple us.
No, you're supposed to go love on the person at the gas station every single day that you're in there to a point to where they're like, what is so different about you?
(18:29):
Well, let me tell you why.
Let me tell you about Jesus because he thinks you're awesome.
That's creating the start of disciples.
And obviously you started home with your kids and your family and you, you move out, you know, I don't know if you have neighbors that you talk to, but it's all our responsibility.
And it's a matter of, again, going back to that understanding of why we're here.
(18:54):
Why are we here?
Is it to get out of here?
Why are we so, why are we in such a hurry to get out of here?
We're here to love and be light.
That's it.
That's all that Jesus said.
Love God with everything you got and then let that love transform you so you love your neighbor as much as you love yourself now.
Simple.
We make it so complicated.
You have put your experiences to work for others in helping others with walk right ministries.
(19:21):
Tell me a little about walk right ministries.
After he told me to write a book, he said, all that journaling, all that pain, why don't you go ahead and write a book?
And I don't think I wrote a book to be a number one seller.
I think I wrote a book to heal that seven year old, six year old child that was molested in that shack.
I think it was the final chapter for me.
(19:43):
Although it's a great story.
God's imperfect plan is perfect.
It is perfect.
We may not think of it, but now that we can look back on it, it is.
So that started the ministry and I didn't felt led to go back to pastoring and leading a church.
I felt more led into one-on-one discipleship, loving on people, getting people unstuck.
(20:06):
So that's why I went to school for coaching, Christian coaching.
I'm involved at celebrate recovery at my church and I'm involved heavily with that.
And I sat in a parking lot one night just praying and cause I just, you know, celebrate recovery is really good.
Don't get me wrong.
But I pray afterwards and be like, man, these people are stuck.
(20:26):
They're just still stuck.
And he says, why don't you create an online community, a 12 step program that just is fully alive.
So I created a 12 step program and the identity of who you are.
It doesn't pound you with the behavior modification.
You have to stop what you're doing and surrender to God, which is great.
(20:48):
Don't get me wrong.
But let's work on what transforms the inside.
So you want to stop doing what you're doing because we can stop three days, three months, three years, but eventually we're going to go right back to it because we didn't change what was inside.
That's where that came from.
So now I've got the community.
I go around and speak and try to speak at recovery groups and try to speak at churches about everything that we've talked about.
(21:13):
And then I just started a podcast myself.
I don't interview anybody.
It's just a story of maybe my life or somebody I know related to the Bible.
And it's just a 13, 15 minute devotional.
I just launched all of this and we'll see where God wants to take it.
I fully believe that I don't step into anything now unless he's ahead of me.
(21:34):
When you get all those green lights, you go.
It's not going to be self-centered this time.
What's been the response to your book?
God's imperfect plan is perfect for those who have had the opportunity to read it.
What's the feedback being?
Most people are like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know you never went through that.
And it's like, well, yeah, it's not something you post and he keep all that hidden.
(21:59):
The thing I talk about is the kingdom here and now and the transforming.
That's the eye opening part that people are getting to.
When you realize that we were made before the foundations of the earth and had a relationship and then lost that idea of the relationship through Adam and Eve.
(22:19):
And then coming back to know that it was all reconciled by the blood of Jesus.
Why are we still sitting in the old self?
The Bible talks about it all in the new Testament.
Get out of the old self, get into the new self, the new life.
You don't have to wear this old skin anymore.
It's been taken care of, but we'd like to wear the old jacket still.
(22:40):
But that's the biggest response I'm getting.
I think that's the key too.
We know of people that have been telling their same testimony story and testimonies are absolutely powerful, but they've been telling their same testimony story for year after year after year, but it's not actually leading people towards something new.
And that's your intent with the book.
(23:01):
It's like, this is what I've been through.
Here is the testimony of the trauma that I experienced, but more importantly, I've come through and here are the ways that you can as well.
That must be such a relief for people to start to realize that there is a way forward, that there is a different way of knowing God.
(23:24):
And it's not a secret that you're trying to say it's Jesus and, but you're saying this is about Jesus and it's right there plainly in the scriptures.
That's your story, isn't it?
Yeah.
Get out of the way.
We want to get in the way.
Why do you think there's 44,000 denominations?
Because we want to be right on everything and we disagree and we do everything against what the Bible says to do.
(23:48):
Can you imagine if everybody was on the same page, how different the world would be?
You just got to get out of the way.
Just start with reading the Bible.
Once you find one golden nugget that the spirit lays on your heart, you go searching around for more and you get more and more.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I never knew this was in here.
I never knew this was in here.
(24:09):
I just read over it.
You say that Walk Right Ministries is an online platform.
So that's good news because we know that this podcast is going out to dozens of countries.
It means that people, wherever they are in the world, if they're listening and thinking, I want to find what Steve has found, they have that opportunity.
(24:30):
They can actually connect with you through the website and the links to that are in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net.
I guess that would be your encouragement to people to, first of all, connect with you.
I know that your main encouragement is get into the scriptures because God will speak to you.
But if people are feeling stuck and they need that person to walk alongside, you have the opportunity to do that through that ministry, don't you?
(24:56):
Yes.
You can look at the coaching aspect.
You can just reach out and send me an email.
I'll be more than happy to reply to you.
The community's on there.
If you want me to come speak that maybe you're excited about this and you want everybody to hear about it, then find that on the page as well.
But the community is probably the foundation because an online community is not about me.
(25:18):
I explain it this way.
I'm the host of the party and I want everybody to come into this community and love on each other.
And they're having such a great time that I can go upstairs and just go to bed.
I just happen to facilitate the step studies, the live events, the stuff in the devotions and stuff like that.
But they can progress through all the lessons themselves, the step studies, the principles, the video lessons, all that themselves, and then speak to other people and connect with other people that have the same issues they have.
(25:47):
And then they can disciple each other and grow each other.
And I'm just feeding them nuggets here and there.
The book God's Imperfect Plan is Perfect is available in the usual places such as Amazon.
And I'm sure that there's a link to it on your website as well so that people can grab a copy of it.
We've only just really scratched the surface of your whole story, but it's more an invitation for people to encounter God, for people to find their own identity in Christ rather than in their past, in the things that they may have suffered or experienced.
(26:22):
Steve, I just want to say thank you for what you're doing in allowing people to discover who they are, who Christ is, and their identity there.
And thank you so much for spending some time with us today on Bleeding Daylight.
I am honored to be here.
I've listened to the show, which sent me down a rabbit hole to watch you preaching.
(26:44):
And man, can you throw that word out.
So kudos to you.
You're a blessed man.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
(27:10):
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