September 28, 2023 • 41 mins
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Ever felt crushed beneath the weight of unrealistic expectations? Have you been caught up in the dichotomy of being 'sexy' without being 'sexual', of embodying 'feminine features' without flaunting them? Welcome back to All Our Little Messes, where today we're unpacking the burdensome impact of purity culture on women, especially in Christian and Catholic societies. Recounting personal experiences, we shed light on the suffocating standards of modesty and elegance imposed on us, along with the confounding rules set out by the book 'Dressing with Dignity'.
As we venture deeper, we confront the distressing repercussions of enforced gender norms on women's physical and emotional well-being. The expectation for wives to be constantly sexually available, and the pressure of maintaining a balance between seductive yet modest leads to problems like pain during sex and vaginismus. We challenge the distorted representation of 'biblical womanhood', which perpetuates the belief that women should be meek, submissive, and restricted to home-making, further emphasizing the dire need for change.
Our journey doesn't end there. We scrutinize 'biblical manhood' and the warped dynamics it cultivates within marriage. Let's question the belief that women should submit unquestioningly to their husbands, a belief that not only belittles women but also warps the very essence of marriage: mutual submission and sacrificial love. This episode is a call to start essential conversations, to redefine what being a good Christian or Catholic woman means, and to encourage women to embrace their true, authentic selves. Tune in, and together, let's untangle the mess one thread at a time.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:32):
This is episode 10 and I can'tbelieve we made it into the
double digits.
This is crazy.
It happened so fast.
I kind of wondered if I'd makeit this far, to be perfectly
honest, but here we are and I amso grateful for all of your
guys' support and it reallymeans a lot that I've actually
been able to make it this far,and it's because of you guys for
(00:55):
sure.
I'd also like to give a shoutout to the patrons on my Patreon
who have also lent theirfinancial support.
I really appreciate you guysand it means a lot that you're
there.
Today we're going to be talkingabout how purity culture has
(01:17):
twisted the image of what a goodor a perfect woman is in
Christian and Catholic society.
I have actually had personalexperience with this kind of
mentality, just through littlethings that people would say
(01:40):
about the women around them.
Of course, there's also theculture that I was brought up in
and how they treated women andhow they talked about women and
things like that.
One of the biggest things thatwas really harped on when it
(02:04):
came to what a good woman waswas the fact that you have to
present yourself a certain way.
You have to be sexy, but youcannot be sexual Meaning.
(02:27):
You have to be sexuallyattractive to the men around you
, but you couldn't be sosexually attractive as to tempt
them.
You always had to dress in away that made a man wonder if
there was something more todiscover about you and your body
(02:49):
.
Essentially, you had to hide it, hide your body, hide the fact
that you're female, but youcan't hide it too much, because
then you fall into the realm ofshabby or I'm not.
There was this term that I wasalways told whenever I would
(03:14):
pick out an outfit or somethinglike that elegantly dressed.
I actually remember a girls campthat I went on when I was nine
years old and they had thislittle skit that they put on
towards the end of the girlscamp.
It was two weeks long, it wasinsanely long, and there was
(03:35):
this huge number of girls there.
There probably must have beenlike 50 to 60 of us at least, it
was absolutely enormous.
I remember this skit that theyput on and they were basically
trying to teach us girls what weshould or should not wear.
They had the camp counselorsdress up as certain types of
(04:03):
women.
We had a hippie woman.
We had a woman who just putwhatever on.
We had one woman who didn'tknow how to dress for her body
type.
We had one woman who wasimmodestly dressed and then we
had the perfect woman.
She came out wearing a shirtthat was baggy, but not too
(04:25):
baggy.
The sleeves were to her elbows.
Her skirt sat at her hips, justright where you could tell she
had hips, but it didn't hug herhips so that you didn't stare at
them.
It was the appropriate lengthof eight inches below your knees
.
It was definitely pushed thatwe were supposed to dress this
(04:49):
way.
If we dressed this way, then wewere elegant.
The character was actuallycalled Miss Elegance.
That has always stuck in mymind, for whatever reason.
I have very few memories of mychildhood when I actually stop
and think about it, but forwhatever reason, that's just one
of those memories that hasreally stuck out to me was Miss
Elegance.
(05:09):
There was always thisstereotype of a woman and how
she must be dressed.
There was also a book calledDressing with Dignity that was
always pushed.
It was written by a woman whowas part of the religious group
(05:31):
I grew up in.
Her name was Colleen Hammondand she actually got her start
in.
I think she was like a weathernews anchor I think is what she
was but she wore pants, she woreeveryday normal clothes, and I
think it was through herconversion story that she really
(05:55):
changed how she dressed and herbook really focused on again.
Like the title was dressingwith dignity, so dressing in a
dignified way.
But it went much further thanthat.
Like the message was that youhad to dress modestly, but it
(06:16):
wasn't just modestly.
She was a certain type ofclothing to her, so you had to
have sleeves of a certain length.
You couldn't have your shirtcollar, for instance, couldn't
be any lower than two fingersbelow the pit of your throat,
(06:37):
skirts had to be a certainlength and it even went down to
the types of material that awoman could wear.
She had all of these tests thatwomen would have to go through
in order to determine if a shirtor a skirt or whatever was
appropriate essentially, and soI grew up with that and because
(07:05):
of that, there's always thishyper focus and I've mentioned
this in a couple of otherpodcast episodes on purity
culture.
There's always this hyper focuson dressing a certain way so as
we don't draw too muchattention to ourselves and don't
draw too much attention to ourbutt, too much attention to my
(07:26):
boobs, too much attention to mywaist.
But at the same time, I wasalso told that we should
accentuate our waist because itwas a feminine feature.
And looking back on that, it'svery ironic to me that they
would say something like weshould accentuate our waist
(07:46):
because it's a feminine feature,because so is our butt and our
breasts.
They are also a femininefeature.
They are what lends us tofemininity.
That is what indicates to theworld around us that we are
female, and so the idea that wecan only accentuate certain
aspects of our female psyche isjust insane to me.
(08:11):
Certain parts of it are okayfor people to see, but other
parts are sinful for people tosee and looking back, it's just
ironic and it makes no sense tome.
That was what people reallypushed and people really tried
(08:31):
to live by, and it was verydamaging growing up in that,
because you always felt like itwas never good enough.
Even now, to this day, I willhyperanalyze outfits that I'm
wearing if I have to be around acertain group of people or a
(08:54):
certain type of person that Iknow is going to that I know
thinks this way.
So, yeah, it definitely changesyour mindset to grow up like
that.
Another aspect of the good womanwas the fact that she, when she
(09:16):
gets married she, or actuallybefore I should address this.
I should actually also addressthe idea of submission.
Actually, a good woman isalways submissive, and she's not
just submissive to her husbandand her dad, she's also
submissive to the authority ofall men in her life.
(09:41):
To a certain extent, I feellike it wasn't necessarily a
conscious thing that I wasraised with, but through
subconscious messaging andthings I was taught growing up,
I had this subconscious ideathat I had to submit to the men
(10:02):
in my life simply because oftheir God-given position of
authority and because they hadthis quote unquote God-given
position of authority.
They knew better, so I had tosubmit to them.
If they said no, we have to doit a certain way.
I had to take a step back.
I couldn't voice my opinionbecause a man had said no, this
(10:25):
is the way we're going to dothings and so like.
That also was very difficult forme and actually a lot of girls
I knew growing up, because whenyou're given talents and things
by God and then told that you'renot allowed to use them because
(10:46):
it isn't your place, it isn'tyour place to go to college, it
isn't your place to work outsidethe home, even before marriage,
it isn't your place to have anykind of higher education.
I was even told that womenshould never have been given the
right to vote.
It was messaging like that thatbasically hammered into my
(11:11):
brain this subconscious messagethat women were almost like a
second class citizen.
But at the same time, I wasalso told things like women have
a higher dignity than menbecause men have to go out into
the world and conquer it, butwomen get to stay home and we
(11:34):
have a higher relationship withGod because we create life.
So women have a higher dignity,but you're not allowed to do
all these things because mensaid so, because when it really
came down to it, like all ofthis submissiveness that these
people pushed for isn't actuallybiblical, but they really
pushed for it as the genderroles.
(11:57):
This is the way it's supposed tobe.
This is the way God intended itand it's actually not the way
God intended it at all.
I mean, if you actually readthe Bible and read the book of
Ephesians and read the epistlesand you read collisions and you
read the book of Genesis like,this is not the way God intended
(12:20):
the relationship between a manand a woman at all.
But these people really pushedfor a woman to submit to a man,
not just in marriage but inliterally all aspects of life,
and that also because she'sraised and slash trained from a
(12:40):
very young age to think that themen in her life have authority
over her.
That also bleeds over into hermarriage and that bleeds over
into the sexual relationship.
So a good woman is alwayssexually available to her
husband 24, seven and alwayswith a smile.
And that is something thatyou'll see in a lot of
(13:01):
traditionalist circles withinCatholicism.
That's something you're goingto see in like fundamentalist
Christianity.
I've mentioned this before.
You know groups like FLDS, theIVLP groups like that.
Within Christianity, withinCatholicism, you'll see groups
like the SSPX, the CMRI groupslike that, and they really push
(13:22):
for submission and marriage andthen also like a woman always,
she cannot deny her husband everand so being so, the fact that
she has to be sexually available24, seven, with a smile,
(13:43):
without the option of eversaying no for any reason
whatsoever, in of itself isextremely damaging and extremely
wrong.
But when you couple thatmessage with the message of
modesty and she has to be sexual, but not sexual, she has to be
sexy her brand but her brand issexy can't lead a man into sin,
(14:05):
but also has to make a manwonder if there's something more
to discover.
So that's gonna make herfearful of her own sexuality and
constantly in this state oflike fight or flight around it
essentially, and so that's goingto bleed over into her marriage
.
And so when she gets married,all of a sudden she has to
switch like click a switch fromhide my sexuality.
(14:29):
Sexuality is a sin.
I can't be attractive, or Ican't be too attractive to being
like a sex goddess and beingsexually available 24, seven,
all the time for this man, andthat has to happen within his
base of 24 hours when you getmarried.
And that kind of switch hasactually led to a lot of
(14:59):
physical problems and within,within women, like you actually
see, there have been increasedrates of, you know, pain and sex
and vaginismus.
I always, I always forget howto pronounce that.
I've heard it pronouncedprobably 50 times in my life,
but I always forget how topronounce it.
(15:19):
But the jinnit, whatever.
I'm sure you guys know what I'mtalking about anyways.
So even if the sexual experienceis a painful one, she, she's
silent and she just gets throughit because she cannot deny her
husband, because she has thismarital duty to give him sex and
(15:40):
she cannot deny him.
And so they're, they're themessaging around.
It turns into what that.
What that does is it turns sexnot into a gift of self and this
, this beautiful redactment andrenewal of our marriage vows,
(16:00):
but it turns it into anobligation, like, oh, I have to
do this, I don't want to do this, but I have to do it.
I have to get through itbecause if I don't I'm
committing a sin.
So you're not actually giving agift of yourself at all when
this happens and it really, itreally cheapens, you know, the
(16:25):
sexual intimacy between a manand a woman when this happens
and so, like that, that idea ofalways being sexually available
to your husband 24-7, itcheapens it, it really cheap.
And sexual intimacy becauseyou're not given the choice to
give that gift of yourselfbecause you have to give it.
(16:50):
You have no choice in thematter.
Your choice has been taken awayand so it's.
It's.
It's sad, it's like it'sactually heartbreaking actually
when I think about all of thewomen I I know who have had.
I've had conversations withthem and actually gone into
arguments with them and they'relike 100% sold on the idea that
(17:13):
they have no choice, that theyhave when their husband says now
they have to and they have no,they.
They can't say no if you knowthey're in pain.
They can't say no if theylegitimately have a headache.
I know everybody laughs, so Ihave a headache.
What if you actually do?
What if you actually are sick?
(17:34):
What if you actually areexhausted because you've been?
You know you have five toddlersand you didn't get to bed until
midnight but your husband wantsto go, but you've been going
since 5 am because your four orfive year old got up at 5 am and
wouldn't go back to sleep.
So you're running off of threehours of sleep because you also
have a newborn that was up everytwo hours all night long.
You still don't have a choice.
(17:56):
These women have no choice.
They have to give it to theirhusbands, and so it's very
damaging to to be raised withthat.
You know, sexy, not sexual andyou know don't tempt the men.
And then you know, have to flipthat switch when you get
married and all of a sudden besexually available 24-7, pain or
(18:20):
no pain, no matter what.
It twists sexuality withinmarriage and it cheapens it into
something really truly ugly.
In my mind it's an obligationand that is not what God
intended for sexual intimacywith marriage, like God intended
(18:41):
sexual intimacy to be unitiveand procreative.
And this renewal of, like Isaid before, this renewal of our
wedding vows and when we getmarried, like we freely for most
of us at any rate, we freelychoose to say I do, I do commit
(19:08):
to this person and so when you,you know, when you have sex, it
should mirror that, it shouldthe sexual intimacy of you know
the marital act should mirrorthat and you should be freely
saying I do every single timeand you shouldn't feel like you
(19:28):
have to.
If you feel like you have to,there's something wrong and you
should be able to say to yourhusband no, this isn't right, I
don't like this, something'swrong, we need to stop.
But for a lot of women raised inthis purity culture and this,
this culture of submission and,you know, dressing a certain way
(19:50):
and modesty and all this, theycan't say no and so, like I said
it, it cheapens it and likethis, the, the idea of you know
submission in, in you know theirsexual lives, is it bleeds over
also into you know takingresponsibility for, for the sins
(20:13):
of certain types of sins that aman may commit around her.
So, outside of marriage, thatwould look like she's walking
down the street and a man seesher and you know she's after her
, she's responsible because hesaw her and for whatever reason,
(20:40):
based off of what she lookedlike, he was tempted and so that
was her fault, even though shehas no idea what just happened.
She has no idea she could bewearing a nun's habit.
He sees her, he's tempted, shedid something Is the messaging
behind this.
And so a lot of girls againgrow up with like I and I myself
(21:05):
in one of those screw velocityis is huge.
Like I said I mentioned earlier, I will take days to plan an
outfit If I'm going aroundcertain types of people because
that that screw velocity is justhardwired into you, because you
(21:27):
have to dress a certain way andyou can't.
Nothing could be too tight,nothing could be too low,
nothing could be too short.
Sleeves can't be too shortbecause if you do, then you're
going to be accused of temptingmen.
You know, just on and on and onand on.
And if you do attempt a manthen you are responsible for his
sin.
I've literally been told Iwould be punished in hell for
(21:50):
the sin of a man if he wastempted by me.
He was not responsible, I was.
And so that also, thatmessaging also please open to
marriage.
We can actually also apply thatmarriage, because a woman will
be accused of, you know, notbeing submissive enough, not
being obedient enough, notpraying for him enough If a man,
(22:14):
you know, develops a pornaddiction or if he's I've heard
of cases of you know, a manbeing abusive, like physically,
verbally, mentally abusive tohis wife and his son, to his
wife and his family and the wifegoing to elders in her church
or to the priest of her churchand begging for help.
(22:35):
Because a lot of times thesewomen have no recourse or they
haven't been taught that they dohave resources and they do have
recourse to the law and thingslike that.
They haven't been taught that.
They've been taught to go totheir elders.
So they go to the elders of thechurch begging for help and
these women are told no, no, no,no, no, no.
This isn't him, this is you.
You're not being submissiveenough, you're not being
(22:58):
obedient enough, you'reundermining his authority.
You aren't, you know,submitting to him in the bedroom
, you aren't praying hard enough, things like that.
And so they're basically taughtthat every action of the man in
their life is their fault.
He has a pornography addictionbecause I didn't give it to him
(23:20):
enough, I was too tired, Ididn't give him sex, and so he
had no choice but to, you know,watch porn.
I wasn't submissive enough, sohe had no choice but to become
angry with me and slap me, or,you know, slap one of the kids,
(23:40):
or whatever may have happened.
He had no choice but to youknow, verbally berate me in
front of my children, thingslike that.
So it was.
It's never the man, it's thewoman, it's the wife not being
submissive enough.
And like all of this messagingall comes down to you know how
pretty culture twists the imageof what a good Christian woman
(24:03):
actually actually is.
And you know another, anotherthing that I've noticed being
pushed and I've seen it pushedvery, very heavily, especially
within the last couple of years,like during COVID, and like the
last three to four years, andit really got bad during COVID.
(24:23):
But everyone, like theseinfluencers on Instagram and on
Twitter, especially more X, asit's called now are always
talking about a woman's Godgiven role of keeper at home and
how we cannot step outside ofthose bounds.
(24:44):
Because if we step outside ofthose bounds, then you know
we're going to be cursed and andyou know we're stepping outside
of the umbrella of authority,which apparently I had no idea
was even used outside of certaindenominations.
But, like I can, I startedresearching, like where the
umbrella of authority was.
It's everywhere, the idea ofthe umbrella of authority.
(25:06):
But these women, if they youknow they step outside of their
keeper, you know the role ofkeeper at home then they're not.
They're not fulfilling theirrole of biblical womanhood,
because their idea of biblicalwomanhood is basically barefoot,
pregnant in the kitchen.
Like, you cannot be a biblicalwoman if you do anything else.
(25:28):
If you have a calling to me,even be.
I had one woman suggest to methat even if a woman had a
calling To be a midwife, whichis like one of.
I mean and I feel like anybodywould say this it is one of the
most feminine jobs a woman canpossibly hold.
I mean, you're literallyhelping other women bring life
(25:52):
into this world, you're helpingother women give birth.
It is one of the most feminineand intimate jobs you could
possibly have.
I had a woman suggest to methat if a, you know, a wife went
and became trained as a midwife, she was failing in her duty to
(26:12):
be a keeper at home.
So we can't even be midwives,we can't even be nurses, even if
we have no children at home,none.
This woman firmly believed thatwomen had to stay home because
that was and I'm quoting herhere that was our place.
(26:35):
We had no place outside of thehome, according to her, because
we had to be submissive and meek.
What was it?
She told me?
We had to be submissive.
It was in an email, but we haveto be submissive, meek, and it
was like gentle of tongue orsomething like that.
And so, according to her, inher mind, if you know, we became
(26:59):
a midwife.
God forbid if we were midwife,apparently, when.
Then?
We're not going to be meek andmild of tongue anymore, and it
just it blew my mind.
It blew my mind.
She suggested that, you know, weshouldn't do that because there
were other women that weregoing to reject God's teachings
(27:20):
and that we should just leavethe rebellion of women to them
and try to teach them biblicalwomanhood.
And when I asked her, who was,you know, going to be midwife?
Because also this woman, alsothis woman also told me that we
shouldn't be going to thedoctors, we should learn, like
(27:41):
herbal remedies and stuff likethat.
But then she turns around andsays, you know, so women
shouldn't go to the doctor, butwe can't be midwives.
And if women can't be midwives,then who are we to go to to
give birth?
Because then our only option isgo to the doctor, but we can't
go to the doctor either,according to her.
(28:01):
So it was like they talkedthemselves in circles.
They don't know what they want.
Honestly, when you actuallywent in, really blows down to it
.
But yeah, that's like that'sthe, that's the image of the
good woman, you know, sexy, notsexual.
She has to be sexuallyavailable to her husband 24,
seven.
She has to submit to, you know,men in all areas of her life
(28:25):
and she has to submit to all menin her life.
We're talking like olderbrothers, fathers, husbands, you
know, church elders, the randomman on the street who thinks
his opinion is more importantthan hers.
She takes responsibility fortheir sin if they claim to have
been tempted by her.
She's, you know, the keeper athome, without question, even if
she has no responsibilities athome, she's not allowed to step
(28:46):
outside of that role.
She submits to her husband andall things.
When it comes to submitting toher husband and all things, this
is where it gets funny, she.
So there's certain, there'scertain types of submission.
I've, I've noticed.
So you have the, you have themarriages that are called
complementary and marriages.
(29:07):
So those marriages are thestereotypical aphesians I think
it's aphesians 22, 24, 5, 24through 25, where it says why
submit to your husband as untothe Lord and all things?
And those, those women, are thecomplementary and marriages.
(29:31):
They're, they're part of thecomplementary and thing where,
you know, they're sometimesallowed to have an opinion and
voice that opinion to theirhusbands, but ultimately, he has
, he has the final say in thehousehold.
And I, I know a lot of womenwho talk about this.
(29:54):
They talk about how, yeah, myhusband has the final say.
And it was only a couple yearsago that I was talking to my
husband about that and I waslike, you know, it's never made
sense to me because, like, ifyou're allowed to have an
opinion, but then he can turnaround and, you know, make a
decision completely contrary toyour opinion, does your opinion
(30:18):
even matter?
And if your opinion doesn'tmatter, then why bother having
it in the first place?
What's the point?
What's the point of having anopinion if you know there's such
a power imbalance that he canturn around and just negate that
, that opinion or what you thinkshould happen, you know, just
at the drop of a pat, justbecause he thinks he knows
(30:39):
better, because he knows better.
And so that was.
That was just.
It seemed very odd to me.
And then you have theegalitarian marriages where it's
more, it's modeled more afterthe entire chapter, ephesians 22
(30:59):
, where it talks about mutualsubmission.
It talks about wife submittingto your husbands and it also
talks about husbands loving yourwives, as Christ loved and died
for the church, giving himselfup for her, basically commanding
both men and women tosacrificially submit and love
(31:21):
each other.
And what I found reallybeautiful was like in this
collection of verses it startsoff with submit one to another.
And then St Paul goes into thedetails of how we are to submit
to each other, and so hebasically is giving men and
(31:46):
women both like this mission inin marriage and how to basically
he just gave us a blueprint ona gold platter of how to have a
successful Christian, biblicalmarriage.
And I've heard a lot of peopledescribe that as an egalitarian
marriage or like a partnershipwhere you know you make mutual
(32:06):
decisions.
I've heard people practice thisby basically whoever has the
most experience in whateverthey're trying to decide makes
the you know decision.
But I mean, I do feel likethere's definitely still a place
for, like you know, biblical,biblical manhood.
(32:28):
Like, for example, like I'mCatholic, so we pray the rosary
a lot and I like my husband tolead the rosary Like I don't
mind leading it if he doesn'twant to lead it, but I honestly
like prefer to defer to him inthose areas.
Like you know you lead therosary.
(32:50):
Or for, you know, drivingsomewhere you drive, I like him,
you know taking the lead inlike religious things.
You know where we're going togo to mass, things like that.
Now, like if I had a realproblem with you know where we
were going to church, weobviously wouldn't go there,
(33:11):
because he would never put me ina position where I felt so
uncomfortable, especially in anarea of, like my faith, things
like that.
And that ties right back intomutual submission and
sacrificial love, where Isacrifice.
I am sacrificing my pride forhim and letting him lead in
(33:37):
areas where I feel like I wantto lead, but I feel like it
would be better for the familyif he did, and he does the same
to me, he does the same for me,he will defer and submit.
If you want to say that, hewill submit to me in areas where
(33:59):
I might have more expertise,such as you know potty training
or child rearing, or you knowcooking or just you know things
like that, things where Iobviously have more talents or
areas of expertise.
Money management, like I'mbetter at budgeting than he does
, than he is, so I actuallymanage the family budget, things
(34:23):
like that.
And so, like you know, this ideaof a woman having to submit to
her husband in all things is inmy mind and, like I have done,
I've done years of research onthis and I know there's going to
be a lot of people that listento this and have a huge problem
(34:43):
with this last part of thisepisode, but I firmly, 100%
believe that this idea that awoman must submit to her husband
in all things, without question, and that man has to, you know,
be a priest, and priest andsomething else it's this weird
(35:04):
term that people use but priestof his household is such a
twisting of scripture because itbasically lowers women to
property, in my mind, tochildren, because you're
supposed to guide and disciplineyour wife.
I mean, once you start downthat road, where do you stop?
(35:24):
She was also given talents anda mind by God and she is every
bit as worthy as you are.
Why would you treat her anyless?
And so, yeah, I'm a hugebeliever in, you know, mutual
(35:46):
submission and marriage and,like, my husband and I have had
hours and hours and hours andhours of discussion over this,
talking about St Paul's lettersand because, when we first got
married, we both came fromfamilies where they pushed, you
know, wives submit to yourhusbands.
(36:07):
It was a thing, and we bothstruggled with the concept, but
at the same time, like wethought that was how marriage
was supposed to be wives had tosubmit to their husbands, and so
, because of that, our marriagewas very, very rocky in the
beginning because, like I wantedto live that but it felt so
wrong to me.
Like I just it felt wrong andhe wanted to live that as well,
(36:32):
but at the same time he didn'tbelieve in it and it felt wrong
to him.
And so like, yeah, it caused alot of problems and so we had to
like really look into and likeread all the marriage books and
like really dig into the Bibleand like try to figure out and
like talk to priests and talk topeople and try to figure out,
(36:52):
like what God actually intendedfor marriage.
Because, like what we had beentaught was just it was so wrong
and like the image again of youknow, a perfect, the good and
perfect submissive woman andwife that we had been taught
just felt wrong.
And so, like it was mainly mehe'd done a huge journey when it
(37:18):
comes to like purity, cultureand everything.
He kind of already like figuredout what he believed and what
he thought was right.
But I had to like reallydisentangle myself from that
idea because I'd already kind ofstarted to but at the same time
I still really struggled withlike guilt and shame and
(37:38):
scrupulosity and overthinkingeverything.
Like I was scared of everythingand like what if I'm wrong?
What if I'm stepping outside ofthe bounds of what God wants?
And what if I really amtempting every man around me?
What if I am responsible?
What if, you know, by puttingon this shirt or this pair of
(37:58):
jeans, I'm being too sexy, orwhatever the thing was like.
What if I'm showing off toomuch, or maybe I should be?
I remember the beginning.
I was like, oh shoot, maybe Ishouldn't be wearing these.
I was wearing a set of raingear and then anybody who's ever
seen like rain pants, raincoats, nose help, big ugly and
(38:20):
baggy they are, they're just themost hideous things.
You look like you're wearinglike tarps, they're horrible.
And I remember thinking maybe Ishould wear a skirt over this,
and then like stopping and beinglike wait a minute, what, why
would I wear a skirt?
This is ridiculous, what am Ithinking?
And so it was like that kind of, that kind of upbringing, that
(38:44):
kind of thinking like just seepsinto your mind.
But that was the image of agood woman, christian woman,
that was perpetuated inperiodical.
So that's the image that ispresented to you and it's
incredibly damaging and it'sextremely hard to move away from
(39:07):
, but I feel like it needs to betalked about more.
People need to talk about this,people need to write about it,
they need to read about it, theyneed to study it, they need to
understand that this is not whatGod wants for women at all.
Thank you guys very much forlistening to this episode of All
(39:29):
Our Little Messes.
Before I close up, I wanted toremind you all I do have a blog.
I write two to three times aweek on different aspects of
Christianity, catholicism, life,politics, all kinds of things.
Right now I've got a shortseries on purity culture and
(39:49):
like sex education with childrenwithin purity culture going on.
So I will include a link in thepodcast description.
So to the mailing list.
So if anybody would like to getthose automatically delivered to
their inbox every week, theycan just sign up for that
underneath.
So please feel free.
(40:11):
If you're listening on Apple orSpotify, please leave me a
review and any comments andthank you guys very much.
I'll see you guys next week.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of All Our Little
Messes.
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(40:33):
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(40:56):
updates and insights thatmirror podcast topics.
Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:32):
This is episode 10 and I can'tbelieve we made it into the
double digits.
This is crazy.
It happened so fast.
I kind of wondered if I'd makeit this far, to be perfectly
honest, but here we are and I amso grateful for all of your
guys' support and it reallymeans a lot that I've actually
been able to make it this far,and it's because of you guys for
(00:55):
sure.
I'd also like to give a shoutout to the patrons on my Patreon
who have also lent theirfinancial support.
I really appreciate you guysand it means a lot that you're
there.
Today we're going to be talkingabout how purity culture has
(01:17):
twisted the image of what a goodor a perfect woman is in
Christian and Catholic society.
I have actually had personalexperience with this kind of
mentality, just through littlethings that people would say
(01:40):
about the women around them.
Of course, there's also theculture that I was brought up in
and how they treated women andhow they talked about women and
things like that.
One of the biggest things thatwas really harped on when it
(02:04):
came to what a good woman waswas the fact that you have to
present yourself a certain way.
You have to be sexy, but youcannot be sexual Meaning.
(02:27):
You have to be sexuallyattractive to the men around you
, but you couldn't be sosexually attractive as to tempt
them.
You always had to dress in away that made a man wonder if
there was something more todiscover about you and your body
(02:49):
.
Essentially, you had to hide it, hide your body, hide the fact
that you're female, but youcan't hide it too much, because
then you fall into the realm ofshabby or I'm not.
There was this term that I wasalways told whenever I would
(03:14):
pick out an outfit or somethinglike that elegantly dressed.
I actually remember a girls campthat I went on when I was nine
years old and they had thislittle skit that they put on
towards the end of the girlscamp.
It was two weeks long, it wasinsanely long, and there was
(03:35):
this huge number of girls there.
There probably must have beenlike 50 to 60 of us at least, it
was absolutely enormous.
I remember this skit that theyput on and they were basically
trying to teach us girls what weshould or should not wear.
They had the camp counselorsdress up as certain types of
(04:03):
women.
We had a hippie woman.
We had a woman who just putwhatever on.
We had one woman who didn'tknow how to dress for her body
type.
We had one woman who wasimmodestly dressed and then we
had the perfect woman.
She came out wearing a shirtthat was baggy, but not too
(04:25):
baggy.
The sleeves were to her elbows.
Her skirt sat at her hips, justright where you could tell she
had hips, but it didn't hug herhips so that you didn't stare at
them.
It was the appropriate lengthof eight inches below your knees
.
It was definitely pushed thatwe were supposed to dress this
(04:49):
way.
If we dressed this way, then wewere elegant.
The character was actuallycalled Miss Elegance.
That has always stuck in mymind, for whatever reason.
I have very few memories of mychildhood when I actually stop
and think about it, but forwhatever reason, that's just one
of those memories that hasreally stuck out to me was Miss
Elegance.
(05:09):
There was always thisstereotype of a woman and how
she must be dressed.
There was also a book calledDressing with Dignity that was
always pushed.
It was written by a woman whowas part of the religious group
(05:31):
I grew up in.
Her name was Colleen Hammondand she actually got her start
in.
I think she was like a weathernews anchor I think is what she
was but she wore pants, she woreeveryday normal clothes, and I
think it was through herconversion story that she really
(05:55):
changed how she dressed and herbook really focused on again.
Like the title was dressingwith dignity, so dressing in a
dignified way.
But it went much further thanthat.
Like the message was that youhad to dress modestly, but it
(06:16):
wasn't just modestly.
She was a certain type ofclothing to her, so you had to
have sleeves of a certain length.
You couldn't have your shirtcollar, for instance, couldn't
be any lower than two fingersbelow the pit of your throat,
(06:37):
skirts had to be a certainlength and it even went down to
the types of material that awoman could wear.
She had all of these tests thatwomen would have to go through
in order to determine if a shirtor a skirt or whatever was
appropriate essentially, and soI grew up with that and because
(07:05):
of that, there's always thishyper focus and I've mentioned
this in a couple of otherpodcast episodes on purity
culture.
There's always this hyper focuson dressing a certain way so as
we don't draw too muchattention to ourselves and don't
draw too much attention to ourbutt, too much attention to my
(07:26):
boobs, too much attention to mywaist.
But at the same time, I wasalso told that we should
accentuate our waist because itwas a feminine feature.
And looking back on that, it'svery ironic to me that they
would say something like weshould accentuate our waist
(07:46):
because it's a feminine feature,because so is our butt and our
breasts.
They are also a femininefeature.
They are what lends us tofemininity.
That is what indicates to theworld around us that we are
female, and so the idea that wecan only accentuate certain
aspects of our female psyche isjust insane to me.
(08:11):
Certain parts of it are okayfor people to see, but other
parts are sinful for people tosee and looking back, it's just
ironic and it makes no sense tome.
That was what people reallypushed and people really tried
(08:31):
to live by, and it was verydamaging growing up in that,
because you always felt like itwas never good enough.
Even now, to this day, I willhyperanalyze outfits that I'm
wearing if I have to be around acertain group of people or a
(08:54):
certain type of person that Iknow is going to that I know
thinks this way.
So, yeah, it definitely changesyour mindset to grow up like
that.
Another aspect of the good womanwas the fact that she, when she
(09:16):
gets married she, or actuallybefore I should address this.
I should actually also addressthe idea of submission.
Actually, a good woman isalways submissive, and she's not
just submissive to her husbandand her dad, she's also
submissive to the authority ofall men in her life.
(09:41):
To a certain extent, I feellike it wasn't necessarily a
conscious thing that I wasraised with, but through
subconscious messaging andthings I was taught growing up,
I had this subconscious ideathat I had to submit to the men
(10:02):
in my life simply because oftheir God-given position of
authority and because they hadthis quote unquote God-given
position of authority.
They knew better, so I had tosubmit to them.
If they said no, we have to doit a certain way.
I had to take a step back.
I couldn't voice my opinionbecause a man had said no, this
(10:25):
is the way we're going to dothings and so like.
That also was very difficult forme and actually a lot of girls
I knew growing up, because whenyou're given talents and things
by God and then told that you'renot allowed to use them because
(10:46):
it isn't your place, it isn'tyour place to go to college, it
isn't your place to work outsidethe home, even before marriage,
it isn't your place to have anykind of higher education.
I was even told that womenshould never have been given the
right to vote.
It was messaging like that thatbasically hammered into my
(11:11):
brain this subconscious messagethat women were almost like a
second class citizen.
But at the same time, I wasalso told things like women have
a higher dignity than menbecause men have to go out into
the world and conquer it, butwomen get to stay home and we
(11:34):
have a higher relationship withGod because we create life.
So women have a higher dignity,but you're not allowed to do
all these things because mensaid so, because when it really
came down to it, like all ofthis submissiveness that these
people pushed for isn't actuallybiblical, but they really
pushed for it as the genderroles.
(11:57):
This is the way it's supposed tobe.
This is the way God intended itand it's actually not the way
God intended it at all.
I mean, if you actually readthe Bible and read the book of
Ephesians and read the epistlesand you read collisions and you
read the book of Genesis like,this is not the way God intended
(12:20):
the relationship between a manand a woman at all.
But these people really pushedfor a woman to submit to a man,
not just in marriage but inliterally all aspects of life,
and that also because she'sraised and slash trained from a
(12:40):
very young age to think that themen in her life have authority
over her.
That also bleeds over into hermarriage and that bleeds over
into the sexual relationship.
So a good woman is alwayssexually available to her
husband 24, seven and alwayswith a smile.
And that is something thatyou'll see in a lot of
(13:01):
traditionalist circles withinCatholicism.
That's something you're goingto see in like fundamentalist
Christianity.
I've mentioned this before.
You know groups like FLDS, theIVLP groups like that.
Within Christianity, withinCatholicism, you'll see groups
like the SSPX, the CMRI groupslike that, and they really push
(13:22):
for submission and marriage andthen also like a woman always,
she cannot deny her husband everand so being so, the fact that
she has to be sexually available24, seven, with a smile,
(13:43):
without the option of eversaying no for any reason
whatsoever, in of itself isextremely damaging and extremely
wrong.
But when you couple thatmessage with the message of
modesty and she has to be sexual, but not sexual, she has to be
sexy her brand but her brand issexy can't lead a man into sin,
(14:05):
but also has to make a manwonder if there's something more
to discover.
So that's gonna make herfearful of her own sexuality and
constantly in this state oflike fight or flight around it
essentially, and so that's goingto bleed over into her marriage
.
And so when she gets married,all of a sudden she has to
switch like click a switch fromhide my sexuality.
(14:29):
Sexuality is a sin.
I can't be attractive, or Ican't be too attractive to being
like a sex goddess and beingsexually available 24, seven,
all the time for this man, andthat has to happen within his
base of 24 hours when you getmarried.
And that kind of switch hasactually led to a lot of
(14:59):
physical problems and within,within women, like you actually
see, there have been increasedrates of, you know, pain and sex
and vaginismus.
I always, I always forget howto pronounce that.
I've heard it pronouncedprobably 50 times in my life,
but I always forget how topronounce it.
(15:19):
But the jinnit, whatever.
I'm sure you guys know what I'mtalking about anyways.
So even if the sexual experienceis a painful one, she, she's
silent and she just gets throughit because she cannot deny her
husband, because she has thismarital duty to give him sex and
(15:40):
she cannot deny him.
And so they're, they're themessaging around.
It turns into what that.
What that does is it turns sexnot into a gift of self and this
, this beautiful redactment andrenewal of our marriage vows,
(16:00):
but it turns it into anobligation, like, oh, I have to
do this, I don't want to do this, but I have to do it.
I have to get through itbecause if I don't I'm
committing a sin.
So you're not actually giving agift of yourself at all when
this happens and it really, itreally cheapens, you know, the
(16:25):
sexual intimacy between a manand a woman when this happens
and so, like that, that idea ofalways being sexually available
to your husband 24-7, itcheapens it, it really cheap.
And sexual intimacy becauseyou're not given the choice to
give that gift of yourselfbecause you have to give it.
(16:50):
You have no choice in thematter.
Your choice has been taken awayand so it's.
It's.
It's sad, it's like it'sactually heartbreaking actually
when I think about all of thewomen I I know who have had.
I've had conversations withthem and actually gone into
arguments with them and they'relike 100% sold on the idea that
(17:13):
they have no choice, that theyhave when their husband says now
they have to and they have no,they.
They can't say no if you knowthey're in pain.
They can't say no if theylegitimately have a headache.
I know everybody laughs, so Ihave a headache.
What if you actually do?
What if you actually are sick?
(17:34):
What if you actually areexhausted because you've been?
You know you have five toddlersand you didn't get to bed until
midnight but your husband wantsto go, but you've been going
since 5 am because your four orfive year old got up at 5 am and
wouldn't go back to sleep.
So you're running off of threehours of sleep because you also
have a newborn that was up everytwo hours all night long.
You still don't have a choice.
(17:56):
These women have no choice.
They have to give it to theirhusbands, and so it's very
damaging to to be raised withthat.
You know, sexy, not sexual andyou know don't tempt the men.
And then you know, have to flipthat switch when you get
married and all of a sudden besexually available 24-7, pain or
(18:20):
no pain, no matter what.
It twists sexuality withinmarriage and it cheapens it into
something really truly ugly.
In my mind it's an obligationand that is not what God
intended for sexual intimacywith marriage, like God intended
(18:41):
sexual intimacy to be unitiveand procreative.
And this renewal of, like Isaid before, this renewal of our
wedding vows and when we getmarried, like we freely for most
of us at any rate, we freelychoose to say I do, I do commit
(19:08):
to this person and so when you,you know, when you have sex, it
should mirror that, it shouldthe sexual intimacy of you know
the marital act should mirrorthat and you should be freely
saying I do every single timeand you shouldn't feel like you
(19:28):
have to.
If you feel like you have to,there's something wrong and you
should be able to say to yourhusband no, this isn't right, I
don't like this, something'swrong, we need to stop.
But for a lot of women raised inthis purity culture and this,
this culture of submission and,you know, dressing a certain way
(19:50):
and modesty and all this, theycan't say no and so, like I said
it, it cheapens it and likethis, the, the idea of you know
submission in, in you know theirsexual lives, is it bleeds over
also into you know takingresponsibility for, for the sins
(20:13):
of certain types of sins that aman may commit around her.
So, outside of marriage, thatwould look like she's walking
down the street and a man seesher and you know she's after her
, she's responsible because hesaw her and for whatever reason,
(20:40):
based off of what she lookedlike, he was tempted and so that
was her fault, even though shehas no idea what just happened.
She has no idea she could bewearing a nun's habit.
He sees her, he's tempted, shedid something Is the messaging
behind this.
And so a lot of girls againgrow up with like I and I myself
(21:05):
in one of those screw velocityis is huge.
Like I said I mentioned earlier, I will take days to plan an
outfit If I'm going aroundcertain types of people because
that that screw velocity is justhardwired into you, because you
(21:27):
have to dress a certain way andyou can't.
Nothing could be too tight,nothing could be too low,
nothing could be too short.
Sleeves can't be too shortbecause if you do, then you're
going to be accused of temptingmen.
You know, just on and on and onand on.
And if you do attempt a manthen you are responsible for his
sin.
I've literally been told Iwould be punished in hell for
(21:50):
the sin of a man if he wastempted by me.
He was not responsible, I was.
And so that also, thatmessaging also please open to
marriage.
We can actually also apply thatmarriage, because a woman will
be accused of, you know, notbeing submissive enough, not
being obedient enough, notpraying for him enough If a man,
(22:14):
you know, develops a pornaddiction or if he's I've heard
of cases of you know, a manbeing abusive, like physically,
verbally, mentally abusive tohis wife and his son, to his
wife and his family and the wifegoing to elders in her church
or to the priest of her churchand begging for help.
(22:35):
Because a lot of times thesewomen have no recourse or they
haven't been taught that they dohave resources and they do have
recourse to the law and thingslike that.
They haven't been taught that.
They've been taught to go totheir elders.
So they go to the elders of thechurch begging for help and
these women are told no, no, no,no, no, no.
This isn't him, this is you.
You're not being submissiveenough, you're not being
(22:58):
obedient enough, you'reundermining his authority.
You aren't, you know,submitting to him in the bedroom
, you aren't praying hard enough, things like that.
And so they're basically taughtthat every action of the man in
their life is their fault.
He has a pornography addictionbecause I didn't give it to him
(23:20):
enough, I was too tired, Ididn't give him sex, and so he
had no choice but to, you know,watch porn.
I wasn't submissive enough, sohe had no choice but to become
angry with me and slap me, or,you know, slap one of the kids,
(23:40):
or whatever may have happened.
He had no choice but to youknow, verbally berate me in
front of my children, thingslike that.
So it was.
It's never the man, it's thewoman, it's the wife not being
submissive enough.
And like all of this messagingall comes down to you know how
pretty culture twists the imageof what a good Christian woman
(24:03):
actually actually is.
And you know another, anotherthing that I've noticed being
pushed and I've seen it pushedvery, very heavily, especially
within the last couple of years,like during COVID, and like the
last three to four years, andit really got bad during COVID.
(24:23):
But everyone, like theseinfluencers on Instagram and on
Twitter, especially more X, asit's called now are always
talking about a woman's Godgiven role of keeper at home and
how we cannot step outside ofthose bounds.
(24:44):
Because if we step outside ofthose bounds, then you know
we're going to be cursed and andyou know we're stepping outside
of the umbrella of authority,which apparently I had no idea
was even used outside of certaindenominations.
But, like I can, I startedresearching, like where the
umbrella of authority was.
It's everywhere, the idea ofthe umbrella of authority.
(25:06):
But these women, if they youknow they step outside of their
keeper, you know the role ofkeeper at home then they're not.
They're not fulfilling theirrole of biblical womanhood,
because their idea of biblicalwomanhood is basically barefoot,
pregnant in the kitchen.
Like, you cannot be a biblicalwoman if you do anything else.
(25:28):
If you have a calling to me,even be.
I had one woman suggest to methat even if a woman had a
calling To be a midwife, whichis like one of.
I mean and I feel like anybodywould say this it is one of the
most feminine jobs a woman canpossibly hold.
I mean, you're literallyhelping other women bring life
(25:52):
into this world, you're helpingother women give birth.
It is one of the most feminineand intimate jobs you could
possibly have.
I had a woman suggest to methat if a, you know, a wife went
and became trained as a midwife, she was failing in her duty to
(26:12):
be a keeper at home.
So we can't even be midwives,we can't even be nurses, even if
we have no children at home,none.
This woman firmly believed thatwomen had to stay home because
that was and I'm quoting herhere that was our place.
(26:35):
We had no place outside of thehome, according to her, because
we had to be submissive and meek.
What was it?
She told me?
We had to be submissive.
It was in an email, but we haveto be submissive, meek, and it
was like gentle of tongue orsomething like that.
And so, according to her, inher mind, if you know, we became
(26:59):
a midwife.
God forbid if we were midwife,apparently, when.
Then?
We're not going to be meek andmild of tongue anymore, and it
just it blew my mind.
It blew my mind.
She suggested that, you know, weshouldn't do that because there
were other women that weregoing to reject God's teachings
(27:20):
and that we should just leavethe rebellion of women to them
and try to teach them biblicalwomanhood.
And when I asked her, who was,you know, going to be midwife?
Because also this woman, alsothis woman also told me that we
shouldn't be going to thedoctors, we should learn, like
(27:41):
herbal remedies and stuff likethat.
But then she turns around andsays, you know, so women
shouldn't go to the doctor, butwe can't be midwives.
And if women can't be midwives,then who are we to go to to
give birth?
Because then our only option isgo to the doctor, but we can't
go to the doctor either,according to her.
(28:01):
So it was like they talkedthemselves in circles.
They don't know what they want.
Honestly, when you actuallywent in, really blows down to it
.
But yeah, that's like that'sthe, that's the image of the
good woman, you know, sexy, notsexual.
She has to be sexuallyavailable to her husband 24,
seven.
She has to submit to, you know,men in all areas of her life
(28:25):
and she has to submit to all menin her life.
We're talking like olderbrothers, fathers, husbands, you
know, church elders, the randomman on the street who thinks
his opinion is more importantthan hers.
She takes responsibility fortheir sin if they claim to have
been tempted by her.
She's, you know, the keeper athome, without question, even if
she has no responsibilities athome, she's not allowed to step
(28:46):
outside of that role.
She submits to her husband andall things.
When it comes to submitting toher husband and all things, this
is where it gets funny, she.
So there's certain, there'scertain types of submission.
I've, I've noticed.
So you have the, you have themarriages that are called
complementary and marriages.
(29:07):
So those marriages are thestereotypical aphesians I think
it's aphesians 22, 24, 5, 24through 25, where it says why
submit to your husband as untothe Lord and all things?
And those, those women, are thecomplementary and marriages.
(29:31):
They're, they're part of thecomplementary and thing where,
you know, they're sometimesallowed to have an opinion and
voice that opinion to theirhusbands, but ultimately, he has
, he has the final say in thehousehold.
And I, I know a lot of womenwho talk about this.
(29:54):
They talk about how, yeah, myhusband has the final say.
And it was only a couple yearsago that I was talking to my
husband about that and I waslike, you know, it's never made
sense to me because, like, ifyou're allowed to have an
opinion, but then he can turnaround and, you know, make a
decision completely contrary toyour opinion, does your opinion
(30:18):
even matter?
And if your opinion doesn'tmatter, then why bother having
it in the first place?
What's the point?
What's the point of having anopinion if you know there's such
a power imbalance that he canturn around and just negate that
, that opinion or what you thinkshould happen, you know, just
at the drop of a pat, justbecause he thinks he knows
(30:39):
better, because he knows better.
And so that was.
That was just.
It seemed very odd to me.
And then you have theegalitarian marriages where it's
more, it's modeled more afterthe entire chapter, ephesians 22
(30:59):
, where it talks about mutualsubmission.
It talks about wife submittingto your husbands and it also
talks about husbands loving yourwives, as Christ loved and died
for the church, giving himselfup for her, basically commanding
both men and women tosacrificially submit and love
(31:21):
each other.
And what I found reallybeautiful was like in this
collection of verses it startsoff with submit one to another.
And then St Paul goes into thedetails of how we are to submit
to each other, and so hebasically is giving men and
(31:46):
women both like this mission inin marriage and how to basically
he just gave us a blueprint ona gold platter of how to have a
successful Christian, biblicalmarriage.
And I've heard a lot of peopledescribe that as an egalitarian
marriage or like a partnershipwhere you know you make mutual
(32:06):
decisions.
I've heard people practice thisby basically whoever has the
most experience in whateverthey're trying to decide makes
the you know decision.
But I mean, I do feel likethere's definitely still a place
for, like you know, biblical,biblical manhood.
(32:28):
Like, for example, like I'mCatholic, so we pray the rosary
a lot and I like my husband tolead the rosary Like I don't
mind leading it if he doesn'twant to lead it, but I honestly
like prefer to defer to him inthose areas.
Like you know you lead therosary.
(32:50):
Or for, you know, drivingsomewhere you drive, I like him,
you know taking the lead inlike religious things.
You know where we're going togo to mass, things like that.
Now, like if I had a realproblem with you know where we
were going to church, weobviously wouldn't go there,
(33:11):
because he would never put me ina position where I felt so
uncomfortable, especially in anarea of, like my faith, things
like that.
And that ties right back intomutual submission and
sacrificial love, where Isacrifice.
I am sacrificing my pride forhim and letting him lead in
(33:37):
areas where I feel like I wantto lead, but I feel like it
would be better for the familyif he did, and he does the same
to me, he does the same for me,he will defer and submit.
If you want to say that, hewill submit to me in areas where
(33:59):
I might have more expertise,such as you know potty training
or child rearing, or you knowcooking or just you know things
like that, things where Iobviously have more talents or
areas of expertise.
Money management, like I'mbetter at budgeting than he does
, than he is, so I actuallymanage the family budget, things
(34:23):
like that.
And so, like you know, this ideaof a woman having to submit to
her husband in all things is inmy mind and, like I have done,
I've done years of research onthis and I know there's going to
be a lot of people that listento this and have a huge problem
(34:43):
with this last part of thisepisode, but I firmly, 100%
believe that this idea that awoman must submit to her husband
in all things, without question, and that man has to, you know,
be a priest, and priest andsomething else it's this weird
(35:04):
term that people use but priestof his household is such a
twisting of scripture because itbasically lowers women to
property, in my mind, tochildren, because you're
supposed to guide and disciplineyour wife.
I mean, once you start downthat road, where do you stop?
(35:24):
She was also given talents anda mind by God and she is every
bit as worthy as you are.
Why would you treat her anyless?
And so, yeah, I'm a hugebeliever in, you know, mutual
(35:46):
submission and marriage and,like, my husband and I have had
hours and hours and hours andhours of discussion over this,
talking about St Paul's lettersand because, when we first got
married, we both came fromfamilies where they pushed, you
know, wives submit to yourhusbands.
(36:07):
It was a thing, and we bothstruggled with the concept, but
at the same time, like wethought that was how marriage
was supposed to be wives had tosubmit to their husbands, and so
, because of that, our marriagewas very, very rocky in the
beginning because, like I wantedto live that but it felt so
wrong to me.
Like I just it felt wrong andhe wanted to live that as well,
(36:32):
but at the same time he didn'tbelieve in it and it felt wrong
to him.
And so like, yeah, it caused alot of problems and so we had to
like really look into and likeread all the marriage books and
like really dig into the Bibleand like try to figure out and
like talk to priests and talk topeople and try to figure out,
(36:52):
like what God actually intendedfor marriage.
Because, like what we had beentaught was just it was so wrong
and like the image again of youknow, a perfect, the good and
perfect submissive woman andwife that we had been taught
just felt wrong.
And so, like it was mainly mehe'd done a huge journey when it
(37:18):
comes to like purity, cultureand everything.
He kind of already like figuredout what he believed and what
he thought was right.
But I had to like reallydisentangle myself from that
idea because I'd already kind ofstarted to but at the same time
I still really struggled withlike guilt and shame and
(37:38):
scrupulosity and overthinkingeverything.
Like I was scared of everythingand like what if I'm wrong?
What if I'm stepping outside ofthe bounds of what God wants?
And what if I really amtempting every man around me?
What if I am responsible?
What if, you know, by puttingon this shirt or this pair of
(37:58):
jeans, I'm being too sexy, orwhatever the thing was like.
What if I'm showing off toomuch, or maybe I should be?
I remember the beginning.
I was like, oh shoot, maybe Ishouldn't be wearing these.
I was wearing a set of raingear and then anybody who's ever
seen like rain pants, raincoats, nose help, big ugly and
(38:20):
baggy they are, they're just themost hideous things.
You look like you're wearinglike tarps, they're horrible.
And I remember thinking maybe Ishould wear a skirt over this,
and then like stopping and beinglike wait a minute, what, why
would I wear a skirt?
This is ridiculous, what am Ithinking?
And so it was like that kind of, that kind of upbringing, that
(38:44):
kind of thinking like just seepsinto your mind.
But that was the image of agood woman, christian woman,
that was perpetuated inperiodical.
So that's the image that ispresented to you and it's
incredibly damaging and it'sextremely hard to move away from
(39:07):
, but I feel like it needs to betalked about more.
People need to talk about this,people need to write about it,
they need to read about it, theyneed to study it, they need to
understand that this is not whatGod wants for women at all.
Thank you guys very much forlistening to this episode of All
(39:29):
Our Little Messes.
Before I close up, I wanted toremind you all I do have a blog.
I write two to three times aweek on different aspects of
Christianity, catholicism, life,politics, all kinds of things.
Right now I've got a shortseries on purity culture and
(39:49):
like sex education with childrenwithin purity culture going on.
So I will include a link in thepodcast description.
So to the mailing list.
So if anybody would like to getthose automatically delivered to
their inbox every week, theycan just sign up for that
underneath.
So please feel free.
(40:11):
If you're listening on Apple orSpotify, please leave me a
review and any comments andthank you guys very much.
I'll see you guys next week.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of All Our Little
Messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
(40:33):
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Patreon for amazing
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(40:56):
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