October 5, 2023 • 25 mins
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Ever been told that submission in marriage means blind obedience and servitude? I once bought into this narrative, feeling stifled, unheard, and misrepresented in my marriage. But that's not the true biblical definition of submission. Join me as I debunk this myth, drawing from both personal experiences and the teachings I grew up with. We'll journey together through Ephesians 5:21-25, challenging the distorted narratives often plastered on Christian marriage platforms. Plus, I'll take a moment to share why Father Mike Schmitz's video on biblical submission is a must-watch.
Biblical submission in marriage – it's a controversial concept that has been twisted to mean one-sided servitude, particularly for women. But, we're here to set the record straight. Listen in as we dissect the harmful repercussions of misinterpreting this biblical principle. I share my own path from passive acceptance to active questioning, leading to a deeper understanding of biblical teachings. This isn't merely about debunking long-held beliefs; it's an invitation to unlearn, relearn, and create healthier interpretations that respect both men and women. Prepare for a riveting discussion set to challenge the status quo of biblical submission and marriage.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:32):
Today we're going to be talkingabout biblical submission and
marriage.
This is going to be a littlebit of a shorter podcast.
This week, I realize I've beengoing over like 45 minutes,
sometimes up to an hour when Iget going, so I'm going to try
to shorten this one down toaround 30 minutes or so.
So, yeah, let's just get rightinto it.
(00:55):
So I believe, like from what Ihave seen in my life and you
know I've only been around forlike 30 years here, so I haven't
been around very long comparedto some but from what I've seen
and like understood in Christianand Catholic society is that
(01:15):
you know the idea of biblicalsubmission and marriage is very
distorted and twisted, and whatI mean by that is that they take
Ephesians 5, and that's verses21 through 24 or 21 through 25,
depending and they try toshorten them or compact them
(01:39):
down into just the verse thattalks about women's submission
and marriage and they completelyignore, or just, you know,
glass over the parts of thoseverses that really point towards
mutual submission and marriage.
And so I kind of wanted toaddress that because, like I
(02:05):
have done a couple interviewsthis week, when I first came
back from a wedding and likeduring the wedding the pastor
there was talking about duringlike the homily he was talking
about like the wife's submissionand marriage and the way he
phrased it was just like veryshocking to me.
Like he phrased it assubjugation and obedience.
(02:29):
It wasn't even submission, itwas subjugation and obedience,
like likening that therelationship between a husband
and wife to that of like a childand parent.
And it was just so strange tome and like it honestly made me
a little angry Like I actuallyalmost got up and just like
walked out until after thehomily was over, just was like
(02:53):
this is ridiculous, but thatunderstanding and that phrasing
of submission within marriage isactually not all that uncommon.
And like the more I look intoit, the more I see that like
people view submission, awoman's submission in marriage
(03:14):
towards her husband, as a formof obedience and I feel like
Christians and Catholics need toreally move away from that
understanding, because it is notthe biblical understanding of,
you know, submission in marriageat all and there are actually
like quite a few articles outthere.
There's some really good videosand podcasts on like the true
(03:36):
biblical definition ofsubmission in marriage.
One video I would actuallydefinitely recommend people
watch is the video by FatherMike Schmitz.
It's on the Ascension PresentsYouTube channel but he talks
about the actual like biblicaldefinition of it and I thought
(04:02):
I'll link it.
I'll link it below for you guysto watch yourselves, but it was
just so beautiful for me and itlike it cleared up so much for
me because, like when my husbandand I first got married, like
we really struggled, because Ihave been raised with obedience
and all things, like a wife issupposed to obey her husband in
(04:24):
all things, and there was noroom for questions, there was no
room for discussion.
Basically what he says goesessentially and so that
understanding of submission,like in that, that aspect of it
(04:46):
and the fact that you know Ithought that meant that you know
when a husband says we're gonnago eat here, I wasn't allowed
to question it, even though Ihave my own separate wants,
needs, desires.
I, because I was a woman andbecause I was a wife, I had to
(05:07):
basically silence those needsand silence those wants and
pretend they didn't existbecause, you know, the husband
said, no, this is where I wantto go.
And like I saw that as, like Ihonestly saw that as like this
holy expression of humility andand respect within marriage and
(05:30):
like, for the longest time, likeit bothered me and I felt that
it was wrong, but I couldn'tquite pinpoint why.
And from about the time I was,you know, 1718, around the time,
like my parents startedrealizing basically, oh, she's
gonna, you know, be old enoughto get married soon, I was given
(05:52):
books to read that really kindof went into that whole culture
there where, you know, the womansubmits to the man kind of
thing.
A woman is of the weaker sex,the woman is of lower
understanding, she is.
This is something that I see onTwitter.
(06:13):
You know, all those incels notincel, yeah, incel those incels
and those, those so-calledChristian marriage accounts and
stuff where they talk aboutwomen having basically like a
weaker understanding and they,you know, they really base that
on the fact that that Eve wastempted by the snake and she,
(06:40):
you know, fell to his temptationWithout even realizing that
Adam did the same thing.
Like we're just gonna skip overthat part because it's all
Eve's fault, right?
So, like I, my, my wholeunderstanding of womanhood and
being a good wife was based onwoman being weak and woman
(07:07):
needing to be obedient.
And so that understandingcoupled with, like my, my
personality, which I have a veryI have a very strong
personality, and I have beentold that I'm very overwhelming
I come across very overwhelmingsometimes because, like I don't
know how to be tactful sometimes.
(07:29):
So, like, when I'm thinkingsomething, sometimes it just
comes out and that's actuallysomething I'm working on with my
therapist and you know, likelearning to be more socially
aware and like moreunderstanding of people and
things like that.
But like it was very difficultfor me to reconcile that because
, like I, I these books liketried to teach me how to
(07:56):
basically manipulate a man intodoing something that I wanted,
while making him think it washis idea all along.
And I don't work like that,like if I think something or I
want something, or I want to gosomewhere, or I want to do
(08:18):
something, I just say it hey,babe, I want to do this.
Hey, babe, what do you thinkabout this, honey, I think we
should go do this, and I don'tknow how to like, manipulate,
and so this idea of womanhoodthat I was presented with was
(08:41):
just so strange to me.
But they were presenting it asa way to be successfully
submissive while also gettingyour own way.
And it was just so weird to me.
But, you know, doing it theother way, just being direct and
saying, hey, this is what Iwant, was seen as being somehow
(09:05):
not submissive, and you know youwere being the, the nagging
wife, and you know your husbandwould need to chastise you or
whatever, the, whatever thewords, the words that they use
are now.
So, yeah, it was very difficultfor me to reconcile those
things and so I started doinglike it wasn't when my husband
(09:29):
and I got married.
Like I had an idea that in myhead that he and I had a very
different marriage.
That was like that for mostpeople and that it was somehow
not right because we viewedourselves as partners and we
(09:51):
worked together to do things andwe were a team, we made
decisions together.
It wasn't.
He didn't just, like you know,march into my life and be like,
okay, so I'm the boss now andyou know what I say goes Like he
saw me as an unequal person andI had opinions and like I
voiced them and he welcomed themand we had discussions and so,
(10:14):
like that, coupled with what myunderstanding of what a Catholic
marriage should be, was verydifficult because like I almost
felt that we were doingsomething wrong.
Like our marriage was wrongbecause it wasn't what I had
been told we should have,because he didn't order me
(10:36):
around and lay down the law andI didn't have to be submissive
and he didn't demand sex all thetime.
And look, when I said no, itwas no, it wasn't.
Oh, you have to submit to mebecause I'm your husband and I
said so it was just okay andmoving on with my life kind of
(10:57):
thing.
She doesn't want to do it rightnow and so, like I, it was
difficult but like the more Istarted to study and read and
like actually go into thescriptures surrounding
submission within the Bible, themore I started to understand
that, like what I have beentaught was not biblical at all,
(11:21):
because what I had been taughtcompletely isolated and like
removed some of the mostimportant parts of those verses.
And it was really sad when Iactually found that out because,
(11:42):
like those verses are, I mean,I feel like they should be the
found that they are thefoundation of every marriage.
They should be the foundation ofevery marriage and but they try
to make the foundation of everymarriage wives, submit
(12:03):
yourselves unto your husbands asunto the Lord.
They try to make that thefoundation, when in fact the
entire foundation is submityourselves one to another in the
fear of God.
And then, and that, that, rightthere, that verse, verse that's
Ephesians 5, 21, that is thefoundation of a Catholic and
(12:28):
Christian marriage Submityourselves one to another in the
fear of God.
And then, after that, the, youknow, st Paul goes into and like
, lays out and details what thatmeans for the wife and for the
husband, and like the, thedetail that he goes into is
(12:54):
actually really beautiful.
So it says wives, submityourselves unto your own
husbands as unto the Lord, forthe husband is the head of the
wife, even as Christ is the headof the church and he is the
savior of the body.
Therefore, as the church issubject unto Christ, so let the
wives be to their own husbandsand everything.
So, christ, you know, he cameto earth, he founded his church
(13:16):
and the church is subject toChrist, but at the same time it
is also an extension of Christ,and so he founded.
It, is an expression of thefaith that he gave us.
So, when you know, it says thatthe husband is the head of the
(13:43):
wife, even as Christ is the headof the church.
He's the savior of the body.
That, like to me, that meant andlike, and I've had, like,
multiple church sourcesconfirmed this when I was
reading it and like, the more Ithought about it, like it
started to make more sense to me.
If the husband does somethingto harm the church, to harm the
(14:07):
wife, he is harming himself,like the Christ would never do
anything, and he does not doanything to harm the church.
In fact, he, he does everythingfor the church.
His entire existence on earth,when he became man and died, was
in service to the church.
(14:29):
He gave everything to thechurch and so, and that kind of
leads me into the next versewhere it says husbands, love
your wives, even as Christ alsoloved the church and gave
himself up for it.
And and that is that is verybeautiful to me, because Christ
(14:49):
died for the church.
And that is like to me, that iswhat husbands are called to do.
They are called to die tothemselves, die to their own
desires, in service of theirwife and in service of their
families, and so that kind ofplays into the whole mutual
(15:10):
submission thing.
Yes, wives, submit yourselvesunto your husbands as unto the
Lord.
And then the husbands arecalled to sacrificially die to
themselves in service of theirwives.
And so we are called.
We are both called to this likebeautiful sacrificial love and
(15:30):
mutual sacrifice and in serviceto one another.
And that is just so oftenskipped over in Christian and
Catholic society and within.
You know, you go to marriageclasses or whatever, and it's
always, you know, submission ofthe wife, submission of the wife
(15:52):
and the leadership of thehusband and stuff, and they
don't actually talk about howwe're supposed to mutually
submit to each other.
We're supposed to die toourselves in service of our
spouse, and it goes both ways.
You can't have like asuccessful Christian marriage
and a successful biblicalmarriage if only one spouse is
(16:15):
fulfilling the mission given tothem by God.
And I mean, yes, wives arecalled to submit to their
husbands.
And that kind of like leadsinto my next point here.
So, like Christ gave husbands,he says husbands, love your
wives as Christ loved the churchand gave himself up for it.
And so, right there, he giveshusbands a mission to
(16:39):
sacrificially die to themselvesand basically lay down their
lives, if necessary, in a sense,for their wives.
And in order and this is likethe beautiful thing to me is
like, in order for wives tosuccessfully carry out their
mission, their submission, whichis, you know, the mission that
(17:02):
they've been given underneaththeir husbands, they've been
given a mission directly byChrist, a mission to live out
directly under the husbands,which is, like you know, the
submission.
In order for us to live outthat mission, the husband has to
first fulfill his, because hisit was given, he was given his
mission first, and then we aregiven his, our mission,
(17:26):
underneath his.
And so it is almost impossiblefor us to to, you know, submit
to our husbands as unto the Lordif he is not also doing the
same.
It's impossible.
Like they have to.
The two missions mustcomplement each other,
essentially, like they have tocoexist.
(17:46):
And so, like I read thesestories of these, these marriage
counselor, christian marriagecounselors, and pastors and
priests and people like that,who are basically telling wives,
you know, the reason why yourmarriage is failing is because
you're not submitting enough andwithout ever giving any thought
to maybe the husband isn'tsubmitting enough, maybe he
(18:08):
isn't sacrificially living hislife Because their first, their
first thought is the wife has tosubmit.
And if only the wife and I'veactually had people tell me this
.
I've I've had discussions withpeople and it just blows my mind
that they would actually saythese things out loud.
But I've had people actuallysay that if the wife loves and
(18:33):
respects her husband enough andsubmits to him enough, then
everything else just falls intoplace Because he will be so
grateful for that submissionthat he will do whatever it
takes to make her happy.
And that is the biggest load ofbull I have ever heard, because
I can't tell you how manymarriages I've seen where the
(18:55):
wife is bending over backwardstrying to serve her husband and
submit to him and he is justwalking all over it.
He is walking all over herdesire to have a biblical
marriage and, to you know, liveout her submission, and it
doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
That is not a biblical marriage.
(19:16):
Again, she is not living outher submission because she can't
, because he is not living outhis mission, and so they have to
both be living out theirmission in order for it to be a
successful marriage and for themto actually compliment each
other.
The biblical, like a truebiblical marriage is supposed to
(19:40):
mirror the relationship betweenChrist and the church and it's
the Christ and the church likeit's a what's the word they use?
I'm going to say goodness, theword is escaping me.
But they peacefully, they helpeach other, they co-exist.
Christ died for the church andyou know the church serves
(20:04):
Christ Like it's a mutual giveand take relationship.
And so you know you can't haveone spouse just serving the
other as like a servant or aslave, and you know the other
just expecting the servitude asis his do, as is his right as
(20:28):
king of the house, as I'veactually heard, king of the
household.
And so, like that idea ofsubmission, you know, basically
the only submission in the houseneeds to be from the wife, it
really needs to go, because itis not biblical at all and in
fact it's extremely damaging andharmful, especially for women,
(20:54):
because we bear the brunt ofthat.
And not only that, it's veryit's also damaging for men
because, like, it lowers wellwhat it lowers?
Our expectations.
You know it lowers society'sexpectations of what men should
be giving in a relationship butat the same time it lowers men's
(21:16):
expectations of themselves.
And so, you know, you go into amarriage, you go into a
relationship having these reallylow expectations of yourselves,
when you know the Bible and StPaul say and they know that you
are capable of so much more thanthat, like you are capable of
(21:37):
every bit of a servant's heart,as your wife is, and you should
be giving that to her instead ofexpecting all of the work to
come from her.
And then you know having anattitude about it when you don't
feel like you are getting, youknow your due.
And so there's actually a coupleother verses.
(21:58):
I'm not going to really go intothose too much.
There's collisions, there's acouple of versions of verses in
one collision.
There's a couple of verses inthe book of Genesis, but the
biggest ones that Christians andCatholics really seem to focus
on is Ephesians 5.
And so that's what I reallywanted to focus on and talk
(22:22):
about today, and I actually hadanother completely different
podcast planned for today.
But after the wedding I went totoday, like in the sermon I
heard the homily, I heard I wasjust like sitting there and I
was thinking about it and I wasjust like, oh my gosh, I need to
talk about this because it'snot talked about enough.
(22:45):
It's not talked about enough.
I mean there's a couple, youknow you'll hear podcasts here
and there talking about it, butfor the most part, I mean you've
got, you know, john Piper andJoshua Harris and all these you
know these big name pastors andthese books out there talking
about, you know, biblicalsubmission of the woman and
(23:07):
completely twisting andmisconstruing what the Bible is
trying to say, and there needsto be more people saying
something.
And so, yeah, I just reallywanted to come on here and like
talk about that, because, likethose messages have been so
harmful in my own life and likeI was able to get out from under
(23:31):
them, you know, pretty early oninto my marriage and so like I
can't even imagine what it wouldbe like for a woman to be
living in that for, you know,anywhere from 20 to 50 years.
I mean I've heard of marriagesthat are like this, that you
know, last up to 50 years,because that was what they were
raised with and that was whatsociety was like when they got
(23:53):
married and that's what theythink is right and biblical and
so it needs to be talked aboutand people need to have a better
understanding of the Bible andwhat biblical submission in
marriage actually is.
(24:14):
Thank you guys very much fortuning into this episode of All
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(24:40):
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(25:05):
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Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:32):
Today we're going to be talkingabout biblical submission and
marriage.
This is going to be a littlebit of a shorter podcast.
This week, I realize I've beengoing over like 45 minutes,
sometimes up to an hour when Iget going, so I'm going to try
to shorten this one down toaround 30 minutes or so.
So, yeah, let's just get rightinto it.
(00:55):
So I believe, like from what Ihave seen in my life and you
know I've only been around forlike 30 years here, so I haven't
been around very long comparedto some but from what I've seen
and like understood in Christianand Catholic society is that
(01:15):
you know the idea of biblicalsubmission and marriage is very
distorted and twisted, and whatI mean by that is that they take
Ephesians 5, and that's verses21 through 24 or 21 through 25,
depending and they try toshorten them or compact them
(01:39):
down into just the verse thattalks about women's submission
and marriage and they completelyignore, or just, you know,
glass over the parts of thoseverses that really point towards
mutual submission and marriage.
And so I kind of wanted toaddress that because, like I
(02:05):
have done a couple interviewsthis week, when I first came
back from a wedding and likeduring the wedding the pastor
there was talking about duringlike the homily he was talking
about like the wife's submissionand marriage and the way he
phrased it was just like veryshocking to me.
Like he phrased it assubjugation and obedience.
(02:29):
It wasn't even submission, itwas subjugation and obedience,
like likening that therelationship between a husband
and wife to that of like a childand parent.
And it was just so strange tome and like it honestly made me
a little angry Like I actuallyalmost got up and just like
walked out until after thehomily was over, just was like
(02:53):
this is ridiculous, but thatunderstanding and that phrasing
of submission within marriage isactually not all that uncommon.
And like the more I look intoit, the more I see that like
people view submission, awoman's submission in marriage
(03:14):
towards her husband, as a formof obedience and I feel like
Christians and Catholics need toreally move away from that
understanding, because it is notthe biblical understanding of,
you know, submission in marriageat all and there are actually
like quite a few articles outthere.
There's some really good videosand podcasts on like the true
(03:36):
biblical definition ofsubmission in marriage.
One video I would actuallydefinitely recommend people
watch is the video by FatherMike Schmitz.
It's on the Ascension PresentsYouTube channel but he talks
about the actual like biblicaldefinition of it and I thought
(04:02):
I'll link it.
I'll link it below for you guysto watch yourselves, but it was
just so beautiful for me and itlike it cleared up so much for
me because, like when my husbandand I first got married, like
we really struggled, because Ihave been raised with obedience
and all things, like a wife issupposed to obey her husband in
(04:24):
all things, and there was noroom for questions, there was no
room for discussion.
Basically what he says goesessentially and so that
understanding of submission,like in that, that aspect of it
(04:46):
and the fact that you know Ithought that meant that you know
when a husband says we're gonnago eat here, I wasn't allowed
to question it, even though Ihave my own separate wants,
needs, desires.
I, because I was a woman andbecause I was a wife, I had to
(05:07):
basically silence those needsand silence those wants and
pretend they didn't existbecause, you know, the husband
said, no, this is where I wantto go.
And like I saw that as, like Ihonestly saw that as like this
holy expression of humility andand respect within marriage and
(05:30):
like, for the longest time, likeit bothered me and I felt that
it was wrong, but I couldn'tquite pinpoint why.
And from about the time I was,you know, 1718, around the time,
like my parents startedrealizing basically, oh, she's
gonna, you know, be old enoughto get married soon, I was given
(05:52):
books to read that really kindof went into that whole culture
there where, you know, the womansubmits to the man kind of
thing.
A woman is of the weaker sex,the woman is of lower
understanding, she is.
This is something that I see onTwitter.
(06:13):
You know, all those incels notincel, yeah, incel those incels
and those, those so-calledChristian marriage accounts and
stuff where they talk aboutwomen having basically like a
weaker understanding and they,you know, they really base that
on the fact that that Eve wastempted by the snake and she,
(06:40):
you know, fell to his temptationWithout even realizing that
Adam did the same thing.
Like we're just gonna skip overthat part because it's all
Eve's fault, right?
So, like I, my, my wholeunderstanding of womanhood and
being a good wife was based onwoman being weak and woman
(07:07):
needing to be obedient.
And so that understandingcoupled with, like my, my
personality, which I have a veryI have a very strong
personality, and I have beentold that I'm very overwhelming
I come across very overwhelmingsometimes because, like I don't
know how to be tactful sometimes.
(07:29):
So, like, when I'm thinkingsomething, sometimes it just
comes out and that's actuallysomething I'm working on with my
therapist and you know, likelearning to be more socially
aware and like moreunderstanding of people and
things like that.
But like it was very difficultfor me to reconcile that because
, like I, I these books liketried to teach me how to
(07:56):
basically manipulate a man intodoing something that I wanted,
while making him think it washis idea all along.
And I don't work like that,like if I think something or I
want something, or I want to gosomewhere, or I want to do
(08:18):
something, I just say it hey,babe, I want to do this.
Hey, babe, what do you thinkabout this, honey, I think we
should go do this, and I don'tknow how to like, manipulate,
and so this idea of womanhoodthat I was presented with was
(08:41):
just so strange to me.
But they were presenting it asa way to be successfully
submissive while also gettingyour own way.
And it was just so weird to me.
But, you know, doing it theother way, just being direct and
saying, hey, this is what Iwant, was seen as being somehow
(09:05):
not submissive, and you know youwere being the, the nagging
wife, and you know your husbandwould need to chastise you or
whatever, the, whatever thewords, the words that they use
are now.
So, yeah, it was very difficultfor me to reconcile those
things and so I started doinglike it wasn't when my husband
(09:29):
and I got married.
Like I had an idea that in myhead that he and I had a very
different marriage.
That was like that for mostpeople and that it was somehow
not right because we viewedourselves as partners and we
(09:51):
worked together to do things andwe were a team, we made
decisions together.
It wasn't.
He didn't just, like you know,march into my life and be like,
okay, so I'm the boss now andyou know what I say goes Like he
saw me as an unequal person andI had opinions and like I
voiced them and he welcomed themand we had discussions and so,
(10:14):
like that, coupled with what myunderstanding of what a Catholic
marriage should be, was verydifficult because like I almost
felt that we were doingsomething wrong.
Like our marriage was wrongbecause it wasn't what I had
been told we should have,because he didn't order me
(10:36):
around and lay down the law andI didn't have to be submissive
and he didn't demand sex all thetime.
And look, when I said no, itwas no, it wasn't.
Oh, you have to submit to mebecause I'm your husband and I
said so it was just okay andmoving on with my life kind of
(10:57):
thing.
She doesn't want to do it rightnow and so, like I, it was
difficult but like the more Istarted to study and read and
like actually go into thescriptures surrounding
submission within the Bible, themore I started to understand
that, like what I have beentaught was not biblical at all,
(11:21):
because what I had been taughtcompletely isolated and like
removed some of the mostimportant parts of those verses.
And it was really sad when Iactually found that out because,
(11:42):
like those verses are, I mean,I feel like they should be the
found that they are thefoundation of every marriage.
They should be the foundation ofevery marriage and but they try
to make the foundation of everymarriage wives, submit
(12:03):
yourselves unto your husbands asunto the Lord.
They try to make that thefoundation, when in fact the
entire foundation is submityourselves one to another in the
fear of God.
And then, and that, that, rightthere, that verse, verse that's
Ephesians 5, 21, that is thefoundation of a Catholic and
(12:28):
Christian marriage Submityourselves one to another in the
fear of God.
And then, after that, the, youknow, st Paul goes into and like
, lays out and details what thatmeans for the wife and for the
husband, and like the, thedetail that he goes into is
(12:54):
actually really beautiful.
So it says wives, submityourselves unto your own
husbands as unto the Lord, forthe husband is the head of the
wife, even as Christ is the headof the church and he is the
savior of the body.
Therefore, as the church issubject unto Christ, so let the
wives be to their own husbandsand everything.
So, christ, you know, he cameto earth, he founded his church
(13:16):
and the church is subject toChrist, but at the same time it
is also an extension of Christ,and so he founded.
It, is an expression of thefaith that he gave us.
So, when you know, it says thatthe husband is the head of the
(13:43):
wife, even as Christ is the headof the church.
He's the savior of the body.
That, like to me, that meant andlike, and I've had, like,
multiple church sourcesconfirmed this when I was
reading it and like, the more Ithought about it, like it
started to make more sense to me.
If the husband does somethingto harm the church, to harm the
(14:07):
wife, he is harming himself,like the Christ would never do
anything, and he does not doanything to harm the church.
In fact, he, he does everythingfor the church.
His entire existence on earth,when he became man and died, was
in service to the church.
(14:29):
He gave everything to thechurch and so, and that kind of
leads me into the next versewhere it says husbands, love
your wives, even as Christ alsoloved the church and gave
himself up for it.
And and that is that is verybeautiful to me, because Christ
(14:49):
died for the church.
And that is like to me, that iswhat husbands are called to do.
They are called to die tothemselves, die to their own
desires, in service of theirwife and in service of their
families, and so that kind ofplays into the whole mutual
(15:10):
submission thing.
Yes, wives, submit yourselvesunto your husbands as unto the
Lord.
And then the husbands arecalled to sacrificially die to
themselves in service of theirwives.
And so we are called.
We are both called to this likebeautiful sacrificial love and
(15:30):
mutual sacrifice and in serviceto one another.
And that is just so oftenskipped over in Christian and
Catholic society and within.
You know, you go to marriageclasses or whatever, and it's
always, you know, submission ofthe wife, submission of the wife
(15:52):
and the leadership of thehusband and stuff, and they
don't actually talk about howwe're supposed to mutually
submit to each other.
We're supposed to die toourselves in service of our
spouse, and it goes both ways.
You can't have like asuccessful Christian marriage
and a successful biblicalmarriage if only one spouse is
(16:15):
fulfilling the mission given tothem by God.
And I mean, yes, wives arecalled to submit to their
husbands.
And that kind of like leadsinto my next point here.
So, like Christ gave husbands,he says husbands, love your
wives as Christ loved the churchand gave himself up for it.
And so, right there, he giveshusbands a mission to
(16:39):
sacrificially die to themselvesand basically lay down their
lives, if necessary, in a sense,for their wives.
And in order and this is likethe beautiful thing to me is
like, in order for wives tosuccessfully carry out their
mission, their submission, whichis, you know, the mission that
(17:02):
they've been given underneaththeir husbands, they've been
given a mission directly byChrist, a mission to live out
directly under the husbands,which is, like you know, the
submission.
In order for us to live outthat mission, the husband has to
first fulfill his, because hisit was given, he was given his
mission first, and then we aregiven his, our mission,
(17:26):
underneath his.
And so it is almost impossiblefor us to to, you know, submit
to our husbands as unto the Lordif he is not also doing the
same.
It's impossible.
Like they have to.
The two missions mustcomplement each other,
essentially, like they have tocoexist.
(17:46):
And so, like I read thesestories of these, these marriage
counselor, christian marriagecounselors, and pastors and
priests and people like that,who are basically telling wives,
you know, the reason why yourmarriage is failing is because
you're not submitting enough andwithout ever giving any thought
to maybe the husband isn'tsubmitting enough, maybe he
(18:08):
isn't sacrificially living hislife Because their first, their
first thought is the wife has tosubmit.
And if only the wife and I'veactually had people tell me this
.
I've I've had discussions withpeople and it just blows my mind
that they would actually saythese things out loud.
But I've had people actuallysay that if the wife loves and
(18:33):
respects her husband enough andsubmits to him enough, then
everything else just falls intoplace Because he will be so
grateful for that submissionthat he will do whatever it
takes to make her happy.
And that is the biggest load ofbull I have ever heard, because
I can't tell you how manymarriages I've seen where the
(18:55):
wife is bending over backwardstrying to serve her husband and
submit to him and he is justwalking all over it.
He is walking all over herdesire to have a biblical
marriage and, to you know, liveout her submission, and it
doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
That is not a biblical marriage.
(19:16):
Again, she is not living outher submission because she can't
, because he is not living outhis mission, and so they have to
both be living out theirmission in order for it to be a
successful marriage and for themto actually compliment each
other.
The biblical, like a truebiblical marriage is supposed to
(19:40):
mirror the relationship betweenChrist and the church and it's
the Christ and the church likeit's a what's the word they use?
I'm going to say goodness, theword is escaping me.
But they peacefully, they helpeach other, they co-exist.
Christ died for the church andyou know the church serves
(20:04):
Christ Like it's a mutual giveand take relationship.
And so you know you can't haveone spouse just serving the
other as like a servant or aslave, and you know the other
just expecting the servitude asis his do, as is his right as
(20:28):
king of the house, as I'veactually heard, king of the
household.
And so, like that idea ofsubmission, you know, basically
the only submission in the houseneeds to be from the wife, it
really needs to go, because itis not biblical at all and in
fact it's extremely damaging andharmful, especially for women,
(20:54):
because we bear the brunt ofthat.
And not only that, it's veryit's also damaging for men
because, like, it lowers wellwhat it lowers?
Our expectations.
You know it lowers society'sexpectations of what men should
be giving in a relationship butat the same time it lowers men's
(21:16):
expectations of themselves.
And so, you know, you go into amarriage, you go into a
relationship having these reallylow expectations of yourselves,
when you know the Bible and StPaul say and they know that you
are capable of so much more thanthat, like you are capable of
(21:37):
every bit of a servant's heart,as your wife is, and you should
be giving that to her instead ofexpecting all of the work to
come from her.
And then you know having anattitude about it when you don't
feel like you are getting, youknow your due.
And so there's actually a coupleother verses.
(21:58):
I'm not going to really go intothose too much.
There's collisions, there's acouple of versions of verses in
one collision.
There's a couple of verses inthe book of Genesis, but the
biggest ones that Christians andCatholics really seem to focus
on is Ephesians 5.
And so that's what I reallywanted to focus on and talk
(22:22):
about today, and I actually hadanother completely different
podcast planned for today.
But after the wedding I went totoday, like in the sermon I
heard the homily, I heard I wasjust like sitting there and I
was thinking about it and I wasjust like, oh my gosh, I need to
talk about this because it'snot talked about enough.
(22:45):
It's not talked about enough.
I mean there's a couple, youknow you'll hear podcasts here
and there talking about it, butfor the most part, I mean you've
got, you know, john Piper andJoshua Harris and all these you
know these big name pastors andthese books out there talking
about, you know, biblicalsubmission of the woman and
(23:07):
completely twisting andmisconstruing what the Bible is
trying to say, and there needsto be more people saying
something.
And so, yeah, I just reallywanted to come on here and like
talk about that, because, likethose messages have been so
harmful in my own life and likeI was able to get out from under
(23:31):
them, you know, pretty early oninto my marriage and so like I
can't even imagine what it wouldbe like for a woman to be
living in that for, you know,anywhere from 20 to 50 years.
I mean I've heard of marriagesthat are like this, that you
know, last up to 50 years,because that was what they were
raised with and that was whatsociety was like when they got
(23:53):
married and that's what theythink is right and biblical and
so it needs to be talked aboutand people need to have a better
understanding of the Bible andwhat biblical submission in
marriage actually is.
(24:14):
Thank you guys very much fortuning into this episode of All
Our Little Messes Today.
Before I close up, I wanted toremind you guys to give me a
follow on Instagram and onFacebook.
I try to post little snippets.
I have a couple people that Ido market products for and
(24:40):
things, so it's mainly just likeChristian and Catholic content
and I also talk about marriageand parenting and sometimes I
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So be sure to give me a followand I will see you guys all next
week.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of All Our Little
(25:05):
Messes.
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