October 12, 2023 • 28 mins
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What if the sexual dynamics of your marriage were fundamentally flawed? Would you be brave enough to confront the issue and find a better path? Join us as we unmask the damaging concept of obligation sex in Christian and Catholic marriages, a mindset rooted deeply in purity culture that pressures women into being sexual commodities.
We're not here to point fingers, but to challenge norms and initiate change. We explore the controversial interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7:5 and how it’s been manipulated to suggest that women are mandated to satisfy their husbands sexually, invariably stripping women of their autonomy and dignity. The impact goes beyond the bedroom, affecting relationships and personal confidence, as women grapple with guilt, shame, and expectations that are at odds with their own desires.
In this journey of enlightenment, we explore the repercussions of obligation sex, and the unhealthy power dynamics it cultivates within a marriage. Tune in as we underscore the importance of communication, respect, and shared experience in fostering a truly intimate bond. It's time to rewrite the narrative, shaking off harmful stereotypes, respecting boundaries and embracing healthier, more balanced relationships. This episode is a step towards empowering women to reclaim their bodies and their rights, and encouraging couples to cultivate mutual understanding and consent.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:33):
Today we're going to be talkingabout something that I feel is
it is starting to become more ofa focal point in Christian
influencers and things like that, but I feel it needs to be
talked about more, and I havemyself experienced, I would say,
(00:56):
some of the aspects of thisbelief and this mindset.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about obligation sex today
and its impacts on Christian andCatholic marriages, and also
where it came from.
Like it's from what I have seenand what I've read inside of,
(01:22):
like marriage books that I wasgiven when I got married and
things like that it really seemsto be a direct result of purity
culture and just like a naturalprogression from purity culture
into marriage.
And so, yeah, I just wanted totalk about that.
While we're, you know,continuing on our series about
(01:45):
purity culture, I wanted toaddress the obligation sex
within marriages because, again,like purity culture doesn't
cease to exist after we getmarried.
There are just the just certainteachings around purity culture
just change for us, essentiallythose of us that are married,
and so obligation sex is justone of those teachings.
(02:08):
And so, basically, whatobligation sex is is we?
It's actually based on 1Corinthians 7.5, where it says
do not deprive each other exceptby, perhaps by, mutual consent.
And so a lot of Christians, youknow, and Catholics especially,
(02:33):
more of the Catholics of themore traditional mindset and
more fundamentalist Christians,they take that as do not deprive
your husband, because there'sjust generally accepted belief
that women do not need or enjoysex.
And so when we see that verse,a lot of people take that as do
(03:00):
not deprive your husbands.
And so we're taught, like girlsare taught kind of indirectly,
subconsciously, about theobligation to satisfy your
husbands.
We're kind of taught thatconcept from a very young age
without ever being reallyexplicit about it, and it's
(03:24):
through very, very subtle thingswithin purity culture.
You know just the thing likemessaging like you know, boys
think about sex every sevenminutes, or something like that.
I was always told that menthink about sex every seven
minutes, or that we have todress a certain way in order to
(03:50):
protect boys, because they'reconstantly thinking about sex,
or that we have to protectourselves from boys because you
know they, kids, can't helpthemselves, right?
And so there's thissubconscious messaging, from the
time we're very, very young,that boys need sex and that
(04:12):
we're the gatekeepers to it.
And so then, when we getmarried, then all of a sudden
this sex is allowed and we'resupposed to, we're just supposed
to give it to them.
And so this, you know, teachingthat we are, you know, the
(04:32):
gatekeepers to sexual morality,one subconsciously also does
teach us that our bodies, one,are sinful, they're inherently
sinful, and also that they'renot, they're not our own, our
bodies are not our own, andbecause, you know, someone is
(04:54):
always trying to take it from us.
So after marriage, after we'vebeen taught our entire lives
that our bodies, subconsciously,our bodies, do not belong to us
, and so we grow up thinking ourbodies are sinful, we must hide
(05:17):
them, someone's always tryingto take them because you know,
it's, it's there, is that kindof thing.
And then we get married and weare told in all of these
marriage books and I could, Icould actually name quite a few
where I've read this Love andrespect every man's battle.
(05:38):
You have the series of booksfor his eyes, only for her eyes,
only.
A lot of these books All say,or created to be, as help me,
that's also a really big onewhen it comes to this.
They all say the same thing Menneed sex and basically women
(05:59):
are there to provide it, and sowe Women become a commodity
After marriage and our bodiesare, you know, our bodies are
there to be used for ourhusbands, because our husbands
need sex and we are there toprovide it essentially.
And so Through that, throughthat messaging, we are taught
(06:22):
that our bodies do not belong tous.
And you know more than that,like they'll, they'll start
using, you know, one Corinthiansto justify that position, and
you know, if you're saying nofor any reason, basically you're
(06:42):
depriving your husbands, andwhich is really, it's really sad
because, like it, it strips awoman of her her bodily autonomy
in marriage, like it strips herof of her dignity, and it just,
it's so Harmful and cheapeningand degrading to be told that
(07:09):
your husband needs sex and youwere there to provide that
sexual pleasure, not, not thathe is giving a gift of himself
to you and you are giving a giftyourself to him and and sharing
in this incredibly closeemotional and physical bond.
No, you, he has a need and youhave to provide it, and that's
(07:35):
all that sex is, and so you cannever say no.
You can never say no becauseyou know one Corinthians says do
not deprive each other, and ifyou say no, you're depriving him
of this, of this need that heis.
You know, he is, you knowyou're obligated to provide.
He is entitled to it, he'sentitled to your body, and so
(07:59):
Like and I, I believe Imentioned this, you know, in an
earlier podcast episode where,in you know, the early days of
my marriage, I, I Never said nobecause I had been raised with
that mentality of you can't sayno.
Like, all of the books I wasgiven after I got married all
told me that I could never sayno to my husband, and I believed
(08:24):
it because they also said, andlike I had, I had other Married
women like, affirm this, they itwas sinful, I would be sinning,
I would be committing a?
I mortal sin if I Deprived myhusband so if he asked for it or
if he, like you know, a sectionthat showed any kind of sexual
(08:47):
advances or anything like that,and I Said, no, I'm not
interested, I was.
I was sinning against him andagainst God and against myself,
and so it really, sex was hardsometimes, a lot of times, for
me because, you know, I, duringthat first year, especially
(09:09):
First, like two years ofmarriage, like you know, I was
pregnant and then after that Ihad the second year, I had my
first child, and so I waslearning how to navigate
motherhood for the first timeand, like navigating, you know,
learning how to breastfeed andlike all of my first child had
some medical problems, and so IWas navigating all of these,
(09:32):
these medical problems andthings.
And then, on top of that, Ialso had this messaging of, you
know, whenever your husbandneeds it, you have to say yes.
And there was also, you knowthis, this shame attached to
Talking about that.
Like I was I felt guilty overnot wanting to have sex
(09:52):
sometimes and Wanting to say no,and like I felt like that was
bad, like I, I had to Want it atall times when he said it, I
had to want it even though I wastired or or I felt sick, or I
was just absolutely touched outbecause I had a, you know, a
(10:12):
nine month old baby that justneeded me all the time.
I Could never just say no, I'mtired.
Can we, you know?
Can we do it tomorrow instead?
And so I, I, I felt like Icouldn't express that to him
either because again, there waslike so much shame and guilt
attached to that, because I feltlike even you know, wanting to
(10:35):
say no, even though I wasn'teven wanting to say no, was
sinful, and so, like it took ittook me years, honestly, to move
past that and like be able toshare with him hey, this is
what's going on.
Like I Don't always want tohave sex and like he was shocked
(10:56):
because he thought I did.
But I had been raised andhardwired to be that way, to be
the, to be the willing,submissive Wife at all times,
you know, ready for sex withthis mile, whenever he wants it,
always be sexually available,and you know, and the obligation
(11:18):
, sex, and it went even beyondthat.
I mean, I Felt like if I toldhim no, then, you know, because
men think about sex every sevenminutes and that's all they want
and that's why they get marriedand I, I get.
I had a.
I had a man tell me that theonly reason why a man gets
(11:39):
married is so he can have sexand Like, even though my husband
would tell me Multiple timesthat that is not why he got
married to me, like that is notwhy he married me, I had a
really, really hard timebelieving it.
Like it was very difficult forme to believe it because, like
(12:00):
again, I had been hardwired tothink that the only thing a man
cared about, the only thing boyscared about was, was sex and
what I looked like and what Icould give them.
And so I Like, I that whole,that whole culture surrounding
(12:21):
you know, men needing sex, andthen you know women are never
allowed to say no.
Like I felt.
Like If I did say no because ofthis, this huge need, supposed
need that he has for sex at alltimes, if I said no, he would,
you know, start watching porn orHe'd cheat on me.
(12:42):
He goes to someone else for hissexual satisfaction.
Like these were actual,legitimate thoughts that were
running through my head all thetime.
And so and it took me a verylong time to to get over that
and and to understand that likeit's okay, we are, we actually
(13:04):
are allowed to say no.
You know me saying no for anight is not depriving my
husband and be not only thatWomen are allowed, like the
whole messaging behindobligation sex and the fact that
you know it's it's Sex, is thisthing that men need and women
(13:28):
can provide.
The whole method, like themessaging behind that is just so
Harmful and messed up to mebecause it basically turns men
Into like these, these animalsthat just, you know, just can't
help themselves and they justhave, like this, this primal,
this need that they just cannotcontrol, they can't, they can't
(13:51):
control themselves, and turnswomen into, like this, this
Commodity or objects or sexualobjects to be used by men
whenever they have this urge,right, and it completely ignores
the fact and it feeds back into, you know, the idea in purity
culture that women do not needor enjoy sex.
(14:14):
It feeds back into that ideathat women do not need or enjoy
sex and that couldn't be furtherfrom the truth.
I mean, the way that men andwomen approach sex is definitely
very, very different.
Like the way women approach sexis very emotional, like we have
a very emotional approach to it, we have to be emotionally
(14:38):
connected, emotionally fulfilled, like there's so many facets to
it before we can have, like atruly enjoyable sexual
experience.
And so, yeah, like.
The ways that men and womenapproach sex is very different,
but that does not mean that justbecause we approach sex
(14:59):
differently than men, that doesnot mean that we do not enjoy it
, and that is like the messagingbehind obligation sex is that
we have to provide it at thedrop of a hat, without any
effort for fulfillment on ourhusbands parts.
And so it becomes this job,this chore on our to-do list
(15:27):
Every day that we just check offhim.
Oh shoot, I forgot.
I have to do a load of laundryand then after that I have to
have sex with my husband andthen I need to remember to do
the dishes.
And it's just like this whole,it's a long list of laws, right,
when, in fact and it's not,it's something that we dread and
(15:49):
we never look forward to.
Like I couldn't even imaginethat.
Like I personally hate doinglaundry.
It is like the worst to me.
I, if I could, I would put itoff forever.
I cannot imagine putting likenow.
(16:09):
I can't, I cannot imagineputting sex on my to-do list for
the day and treating it andthinking of it as this thing
that I had to do.
I couldn't put it off, but Ijust, you know, I needed to do
it and get it over with, likethat load of laundry that I just
have to do.
It's just so weird to me butunfortunately a lot of women in
(16:34):
Christianity and within likeCatholic cultures, you know,
view sex that way.
And it really comes back tothis whole idea, that this whole
idea of obligation sex and thatwhere men are entitled to us
and men are entitled to ourbodies.
And you know, when you read,when you read the whole verse of
(17:01):
1 Corinthians 7-5, it nevermentions, explicitly mentions,
either men or women.
It's actually talking aboutboth of them and I thought that
was very interesting because it,to me, it shows that it is a
need for both the husband andthe wife, not just the husband,
(17:25):
and so it is both of our jobs toapproach the sexual
relationship and fulfill eachother's needs.
Like my husband has, you know,he has more physical needs and
and he also, he also hasemotionally.
You know he's a human being, sohe also has emotional needs as
(17:46):
well.
And so you know, and especiallywhen you're, you know within,
you know when you're, whenyou're married, sex becomes a
very emotional thing.
It's how you know a marriedcouple, like a healthy married
couple, emotionally connects.
But Especially, that'sespecially true for a woman like
(18:07):
she has to feel safe, she hasto be feel taken care of, she
has to be Emotionally fulfilled.
She needs to feel heard andunderstood and like like her
husband actually cares about her.
And if that, that emotionalconnection with her husband,
that spiritual connection Ishould call it, actually, if
(18:27):
that connection with her husbandisn't there, then sex really
did.
It's an, it's an obligation,it's a chore, it's just
something that she needs tocheck off on her to-do list and
it doesn't Fulfill, you know,the biblical requirements of sex
.
Like one Corinthians sevens five, says do not deprive each other
(18:48):
, except perhaps by mutualconsent and for a time, so that
you may devote yourselves toprayer.
Then Then come together againso that Satan will not tempt you
because of your lack ofself-control.
He's talking to both of us andyou know, while women may have,
(19:08):
you know we're not, we're notgoing necessarily going to be
tempted sexually, but if we donot come together with our
husbands and Both of us, youknow, take care of each other in
the ways that we need, thenSatan will tempt us in our
(19:29):
unique ways and so like he willtempt us emotionally If we
cannot get that emotionalconnection that we need in order
to fulfill, fulfilled duringsex.
If we cannot get that, thenwe're going to seek it elsewhere
, because women really do needthat emotional connection, like
it's just it's, it's in ournatures, we need it and so if we
(19:52):
cannot get that from ourhusbands, we are going to seek
it elsewhere, through you know,friends or you know worst-case
scenario, god forbid.
You know outside of, you knowthe bounds of marriage and so
like this, this verse is veryimportant, but I feel like
people really Misconstrued tomean the wife cannot deprive the
(20:17):
husband and that's all it isabout, and just so.
Not about that.
It is about more than just sexand and I feel like people
people need to really read andstudy that verse and Try to come
to a better understanding, inmy opinion, because I feel like
(20:37):
a lot of problems could beavoided, especially in the early
years of marriage.
If you know, this was actuallysomething that was talked about
in marriage classes and stuffwhich I mean.
I actually can't speak toMarriage counseling and marriage
classes nowadays because themarriage counseling I was
provided with before I gotmarried was Very, very minimal.
(20:59):
It was a three-hour crash coursethe day before I got married by
a priest who did not even endup marrying us and, basically,
when it came to one Corinthianseven, five like, the Counseling
and advice I receivedsurrounding that was don't say
(21:23):
no, you can't deprive him you,so you can't say no, and that
was my marriage advice when itcame to sex.
And so it was, which you knowfurther, I had a priest telling
me and you can't say no, so I itfurther like solidified in my
mind that it was a sin and Iwould be, you know, causing us
(21:47):
both to sin if I ever said noand so, like very rarely what I
do it like I would have to be,you know, basically dying in
order for me to say no.
Like I remember after my firstchild, you know, traditionally
you're supposed to wait sixweeks, right?
You're supposed to wait sixweeks to make sure your body's
(22:09):
healed and to make sure thatthere is not any risk for
infection and all that stuff,right after you have a child.
I did not do that.
Neither one of us really weretold about the whole six-week
thing and I didn't even reallythink about it.
And so it was.
It wasn't too soon, but it wasfairly soon after childbirth, we
(22:32):
were talking about it and heasked, and I didn't really feel
comfortable because I had justbeen out giving birth and I was
just like dead tired all thetime.
But again, you can't say no, nois never an answer.
Like you can't, it's not evensomething that should enter your
mind.
So it's like, oh, yes, ofcourse.
(22:53):
And you know, looking back andI'm just like, oh, my goodness,
like both of us had such atwisted understanding of healthy
boundaries in marriage at thatpoint and like I didn't have an
understanding of what I was andwasn't allowed to do biblically.
(23:15):
And so I yeah again.
Like I felt like if I ever saidno for any reason, I was, you
know, committing a sin and Iwould have to confess it,
confess the sin, and so it was.
Yeah, it was like growing uplike that was just, and going
into marriage like that was justso harmful and so emotionally
(23:37):
exhausting all the time and itreally it twisted my idea of
what healthy, you know, ahealthy sex life in a marriage
should be like.
And like, the more I've talkedto to women in within
Christianity and withinCatholicism, like traditional
Catholicism, I find that it'sactually a very common
(24:01):
occurrence like this is very,very common for girls to be
raised with this idea that wecan't say no, it is a sin to say
no, our bodies do not belong tous, we have no rights over them
at all, like none, zero, not aever, even after childbirth, and
(24:27):
so, and that creates, you know,whole hosts of other problems
which we can get into laterpodcast.
But yeah, it just it's so, it'sso sad and it's it's just so
harmful and it's creating.
(24:48):
It's created really thisepidemic of marriages where
there's, like this power dynamicthat really, oftentimes, you
know, the husband isn't evenwhere exists because, again,
like I mentioned earlier, a wifefeels shame and guilt, that she
(25:12):
has these feelings of, you know, being feeling obligated to to
have sex with her husband whenshe doesn't want to.
She feels shame and guilt, thatit's a chore and she doesn't
want it and but she won't talkabout it and so, like there's
again there's like this, justthis odd power dynamic that
(25:36):
neither one of them is reallyaware exists within the marriage
and it's it really, it affectsthe marriage in all areas, not
just in, you know, the sexualrelationship, but it affects
them in all areas and, like, inorder for a marriage to be, you
know, truly healthy.
(25:56):
You need to be able tocommunicate those kinds of
feelings to your husband and youneed to be.
You need to know that you knowyou're going to be hard and
you're going to be emotionallysafe and, like.
A woman needs that.
And in a lot of cases, a womandoesn't know that when she's
raised with you know theobligation sex message, and when
(26:18):
she's raised with impurityculture, she's taught that her
voice does not matter and herbody is not her own, and so she
never feels like she canactually speak up and say I
don't like this and I I wantthis to change.
And so, like I feel like ourfirst steps to break out of this
(26:44):
cycle of you know obligationsex and you know purity culture
is to start teaching our girlsthat you do have a voice.
If someone you know just likebasic things, like you know if
someone is touching you that youdon't like, even if it's just a
hug or or just you know theyjust want to give you a hug,
(27:05):
it's okay to say no because yourbody is your own.
No is a complete sentence, nois an answer, even when you're
married.
And that starts with teachingour girls from a very young age
and I'm talking young toddlers,as you know as young as when
(27:26):
they start talking, learning howto speak.
Start teaching them you knowbodily autonomy and how to say
no and that their bodies aretheir own, and teach them
healthy boundaries.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of All Our Little Messes
(27:48):
.
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(28:10):
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Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:33):
Today we're going to be talkingabout something that I feel is
it is starting to become more ofa focal point in Christian
influencers and things like that, but I feel it needs to be
talked about more, and I havemyself experienced, I would say,
(00:56):
some of the aspects of thisbelief and this mindset.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about obligation sex today
and its impacts on Christian andCatholic marriages, and also
where it came from.
Like it's from what I have seenand what I've read inside of,
(01:22):
like marriage books that I wasgiven when I got married and
things like that it really seemsto be a direct result of purity
culture and just like a naturalprogression from purity culture
into marriage.
And so, yeah, I just wanted totalk about that.
While we're, you know,continuing on our series about
(01:45):
purity culture, I wanted toaddress the obligation sex
within marriages because, again,like purity culture doesn't
cease to exist after we getmarried.
There are just the just certainteachings around purity culture
just change for us, essentiallythose of us that are married,
and so obligation sex is justone of those teachings.
(02:08):
And so, basically, whatobligation sex is is we?
It's actually based on 1Corinthians 7.5, where it says
do not deprive each other exceptby, perhaps by, mutual consent.
And so a lot of Christians, youknow, and Catholics especially,
(02:33):
more of the Catholics of themore traditional mindset and
more fundamentalist Christians,they take that as do not deprive
your husband, because there'sjust generally accepted belief
that women do not need or enjoysex.
And so when we see that verse,a lot of people take that as do
(03:00):
not deprive your husbands.
And so we're taught, like girlsare taught kind of indirectly,
subconsciously, about theobligation to satisfy your
husbands.
We're kind of taught thatconcept from a very young age
without ever being reallyexplicit about it, and it's
(03:24):
through very, very subtle thingswithin purity culture.
You know just the thing likemessaging like you know, boys
think about sex every sevenminutes, or something like that.
I was always told that menthink about sex every seven
minutes, or that we have todress a certain way in order to
(03:50):
protect boys, because they'reconstantly thinking about sex,
or that we have to protectourselves from boys because you
know they, kids, can't helpthemselves, right?
And so there's thissubconscious messaging, from the
time we're very, very young,that boys need sex and that
(04:12):
we're the gatekeepers to it.
And so then, when we getmarried, then all of a sudden
this sex is allowed and we'resupposed to, we're just supposed
to give it to them.
And so this, you know, teachingthat we are, you know, the
(04:32):
gatekeepers to sexual morality,one subconsciously also does
teach us that our bodies, one,are sinful, they're inherently
sinful, and also that they'renot, they're not our own, our
bodies are not our own, andbecause, you know, someone is
(04:54):
always trying to take it from us.
So after marriage, after we'vebeen taught our entire lives
that our bodies, subconsciously,our bodies, do not belong to us
, and so we grow up thinking ourbodies are sinful, we must hide
(05:17):
them, someone's always tryingto take them because you know,
it's, it's there, is that kindof thing.
And then we get married and weare told in all of these
marriage books and I could, Icould actually name quite a few
where I've read this Love andrespect every man's battle.
(05:38):
You have the series of booksfor his eyes, only for her eyes,
only.
A lot of these books All say,or created to be, as help me,
that's also a really big onewhen it comes to this.
They all say the same thing Menneed sex and basically women
(05:59):
are there to provide it, and sowe Women become a commodity
After marriage and our bodiesare, you know, our bodies are
there to be used for ourhusbands, because our husbands
need sex and we are there toprovide it essentially.
And so Through that, throughthat messaging, we are taught
(06:22):
that our bodies do not belong tous.
And you know more than that,like they'll, they'll start
using, you know, one Corinthiansto justify that position, and
you know, if you're saying nofor any reason, basically you're
(06:42):
depriving your husbands, andwhich is really, it's really sad
because, like it, it strips awoman of her her bodily autonomy
in marriage, like it strips herof of her dignity, and it just,
it's so Harmful and cheapeningand degrading to be told that
(07:09):
your husband needs sex and youwere there to provide that
sexual pleasure, not, not thathe is giving a gift of himself
to you and you are giving a giftyourself to him and and sharing
in this incredibly closeemotional and physical bond.
No, you, he has a need and youhave to provide it, and that's
(07:35):
all that sex is, and so you cannever say no.
You can never say no becauseyou know one Corinthians says do
not deprive each other, and ifyou say no, you're depriving him
of this, of this need that heis.
You know, he is, you knowyou're obligated to provide.
He is entitled to it, he'sentitled to your body, and so
(07:59):
Like and I, I believe Imentioned this, you know, in an
earlier podcast episode where,in you know, the early days of
my marriage, I, I Never said nobecause I had been raised with
that mentality of you can't sayno.
Like, all of the books I wasgiven after I got married all
told me that I could never sayno to my husband, and I believed
(08:24):
it because they also said, andlike I had, I had other Married
women like, affirm this, they itwas sinful, I would be sinning,
I would be committing a?
I mortal sin if I Deprived myhusband so if he asked for it or
if he, like you know, a sectionthat showed any kind of sexual
(08:47):
advances or anything like that,and I Said, no, I'm not
interested, I was.
I was sinning against him andagainst God and against myself,
and so it really, sex was hardsometimes, a lot of times, for
me because, you know, I, duringthat first year, especially
(09:09):
First, like two years ofmarriage, like you know, I was
pregnant and then after that Ihad the second year, I had my
first child, and so I waslearning how to navigate
motherhood for the first timeand, like navigating, you know,
learning how to breastfeed andlike all of my first child had
some medical problems, and so IWas navigating all of these,
(09:32):
these medical problems andthings.
And then, on top of that, Ialso had this messaging of, you
know, whenever your husbandneeds it, you have to say yes.
And there was also, you knowthis, this shame attached to
Talking about that.
Like I was I felt guilty overnot wanting to have sex
(09:52):
sometimes and Wanting to say no,and like I felt like that was
bad, like I, I had to Want it atall times when he said it, I
had to want it even though I wastired or or I felt sick, or I
was just absolutely touched outbecause I had a, you know, a
(10:12):
nine month old baby that justneeded me all the time.
I Could never just say no, I'mtired.
Can we, you know?
Can we do it tomorrow instead?
And so I, I, I felt like Icouldn't express that to him
either because again, there waslike so much shame and guilt
attached to that, because I feltlike even you know, wanting to
(10:35):
say no, even though I wasn'teven wanting to say no, was
sinful, and so, like it took ittook me years, honestly, to move
past that and like be able toshare with him hey, this is
what's going on.
Like I Don't always want tohave sex and like he was shocked
(10:56):
because he thought I did.
But I had been raised andhardwired to be that way, to be
the, to be the willing,submissive Wife at all times,
you know, ready for sex withthis mile, whenever he wants it,
always be sexually available,and you know, and the obligation
(11:18):
, sex, and it went even beyondthat.
I mean, I Felt like if I toldhim no, then, you know, because
men think about sex every sevenminutes and that's all they want
and that's why they get marriedand I, I get.
I had a.
I had a man tell me that theonly reason why a man gets
(11:39):
married is so he can have sexand Like, even though my husband
would tell me Multiple timesthat that is not why he got
married to me, like that is notwhy he married me, I had a
really, really hard timebelieving it.
Like it was very difficult forme to believe it because, like
(12:00):
again, I had been hardwired tothink that the only thing a man
cared about, the only thing boyscared about was, was sex and
what I looked like and what Icould give them.
And so I Like, I that whole,that whole culture surrounding
(12:21):
you know, men needing sex, andthen you know women are never
allowed to say no.
Like I felt.
Like If I did say no because ofthis, this huge need, supposed
need that he has for sex at alltimes, if I said no, he would,
you know, start watching porn orHe'd cheat on me.
(12:42):
He goes to someone else for hissexual satisfaction.
Like these were actual,legitimate thoughts that were
running through my head all thetime.
And so and it took me a verylong time to to get over that
and and to understand that likeit's okay, we are, we actually
(13:04):
are allowed to say no.
You know me saying no for anight is not depriving my
husband and be not only thatWomen are allowed, like the
whole messaging behindobligation sex and the fact that
you know it's it's Sex, is thisthing that men need and women
(13:28):
can provide.
The whole method, like themessaging behind that is just so
Harmful and messed up to mebecause it basically turns men
Into like these, these animalsthat just, you know, just can't
help themselves and they justhave, like this, this primal,
this need that they just cannotcontrol, they can't, they can't
(13:51):
control themselves, and turnswomen into, like this, this
Commodity or objects or sexualobjects to be used by men
whenever they have this urge,right, and it completely ignores
the fact and it feeds back into, you know, the idea in purity
culture that women do not needor enjoy sex.
(14:14):
It feeds back into that ideathat women do not need or enjoy
sex and that couldn't be furtherfrom the truth.
I mean, the way that men andwomen approach sex is definitely
very, very different.
Like the way women approach sexis very emotional, like we have
a very emotional approach to it, we have to be emotionally
(14:38):
connected, emotionally fulfilled, like there's so many facets to
it before we can have, like atruly enjoyable sexual
experience.
And so, yeah, like.
The ways that men and womenapproach sex is very different,
but that does not mean that justbecause we approach sex
(14:59):
differently than men, that doesnot mean that we do not enjoy it
, and that is like the messagingbehind obligation sex is that
we have to provide it at thedrop of a hat, without any
effort for fulfillment on ourhusbands parts.
And so it becomes this job,this chore on our to-do list
(15:27):
Every day that we just check offhim.
Oh shoot, I forgot.
I have to do a load of laundryand then after that I have to
have sex with my husband andthen I need to remember to do
the dishes.
And it's just like this whole,it's a long list of laws, right,
when, in fact and it's not,it's something that we dread and
(15:49):
we never look forward to.
Like I couldn't even imaginethat.
Like I personally hate doinglaundry.
It is like the worst to me.
I, if I could, I would put itoff forever.
I cannot imagine putting likenow.
(16:09):
I can't, I cannot imagineputting sex on my to-do list for
the day and treating it andthinking of it as this thing
that I had to do.
I couldn't put it off, but Ijust, you know, I needed to do
it and get it over with, likethat load of laundry that I just
have to do.
It's just so weird to me butunfortunately a lot of women in
(16:34):
Christianity and within likeCatholic cultures, you know,
view sex that way.
And it really comes back tothis whole idea, that this whole
idea of obligation sex and thatwhere men are entitled to us
and men are entitled to ourbodies.
And you know, when you read,when you read the whole verse of
(17:01):
1 Corinthians 7-5, it nevermentions, explicitly mentions,
either men or women.
It's actually talking aboutboth of them and I thought that
was very interesting because it,to me, it shows that it is a
need for both the husband andthe wife, not just the husband,
(17:25):
and so it is both of our jobs toapproach the sexual
relationship and fulfill eachother's needs.
Like my husband has, you know,he has more physical needs and
and he also, he also hasemotionally.
You know he's a human being, sohe also has emotional needs as
(17:46):
well.
And so you know, and especiallywhen you're, you know within,
you know when you're, whenyou're married, sex becomes a
very emotional thing.
It's how you know a marriedcouple, like a healthy married
couple, emotionally connects.
But Especially, that'sespecially true for a woman like
(18:07):
she has to feel safe, she hasto be feel taken care of, she
has to be Emotionally fulfilled.
She needs to feel heard andunderstood and like like her
husband actually cares about her.
And if that, that emotionalconnection with her husband,
that spiritual connection Ishould call it, actually, if
(18:27):
that connection with her husbandisn't there, then sex really
did.
It's an, it's an obligation,it's a chore, it's just
something that she needs tocheck off on her to-do list and
it doesn't Fulfill, you know,the biblical requirements of sex
.
Like one Corinthians sevens five, says do not deprive each other
(18:48):
, except perhaps by mutualconsent and for a time, so that
you may devote yourselves toprayer.
Then Then come together againso that Satan will not tempt you
because of your lack ofself-control.
He's talking to both of us andyou know, while women may have,
(19:08):
you know we're not, we're notgoing necessarily going to be
tempted sexually, but if we donot come together with our
husbands and Both of us, youknow, take care of each other in
the ways that we need, thenSatan will tempt us in our
(19:29):
unique ways and so like he willtempt us emotionally If we
cannot get that emotionalconnection that we need in order
to fulfill, fulfilled duringsex.
If we cannot get that, thenwe're going to seek it elsewhere
, because women really do needthat emotional connection, like
it's just it's, it's in ournatures, we need it and so if we
(19:52):
cannot get that from ourhusbands, we are going to seek
it elsewhere, through you know,friends or you know worst-case
scenario, god forbid.
You know outside of, you knowthe bounds of marriage and so
like this, this verse is veryimportant, but I feel like
people really Misconstrued tomean the wife cannot deprive the
(20:17):
husband and that's all it isabout, and just so.
Not about that.
It is about more than just sexand and I feel like people
people need to really read andstudy that verse and Try to come
to a better understanding, inmy opinion, because I feel like
(20:37):
a lot of problems could beavoided, especially in the early
years of marriage.
If you know, this was actuallysomething that was talked about
in marriage classes and stuffwhich I mean.
I actually can't speak toMarriage counseling and marriage
classes nowadays because themarriage counseling I was
provided with before I gotmarried was Very, very minimal.
(20:59):
It was a three-hour crash coursethe day before I got married by
a priest who did not even endup marrying us and, basically,
when it came to one Corinthianseven, five like, the Counseling
and advice I receivedsurrounding that was don't say
(21:23):
no, you can't deprive him you,so you can't say no, and that
was my marriage advice when itcame to sex.
And so it was, which you knowfurther, I had a priest telling
me and you can't say no, so I itfurther like solidified in my
mind that it was a sin and Iwould be, you know, causing us
(21:47):
both to sin if I ever said noand so, like very rarely what I
do it like I would have to be,you know, basically dying in
order for me to say no.
Like I remember after my firstchild, you know, traditionally
you're supposed to wait sixweeks, right?
You're supposed to wait sixweeks to make sure your body's
(22:09):
healed and to make sure thatthere is not any risk for
infection and all that stuff,right after you have a child.
I did not do that.
Neither one of us really weretold about the whole six-week
thing and I didn't even reallythink about it.
And so it was.
It wasn't too soon, but it wasfairly soon after childbirth, we
(22:32):
were talking about it and heasked, and I didn't really feel
comfortable because I had justbeen out giving birth and I was
just like dead tired all thetime.
But again, you can't say no, nois never an answer.
Like you can't, it's not evensomething that should enter your
mind.
So it's like, oh, yes, ofcourse.
(22:53):
And you know, looking back andI'm just like, oh, my goodness,
like both of us had such atwisted understanding of healthy
boundaries in marriage at thatpoint and like I didn't have an
understanding of what I was andwasn't allowed to do biblically.
(23:15):
And so I yeah again.
Like I felt like if I ever saidno for any reason, I was, you
know, committing a sin and Iwould have to confess it,
confess the sin, and so it was.
Yeah, it was like growing uplike that was just, and going
into marriage like that was justso harmful and so emotionally
(23:37):
exhausting all the time and itreally it twisted my idea of
what healthy, you know, ahealthy sex life in a marriage
should be like.
And like, the more I've talkedto to women in within
Christianity and withinCatholicism, like traditional
Catholicism, I find that it'sactually a very common
(24:01):
occurrence like this is very,very common for girls to be
raised with this idea that wecan't say no, it is a sin to say
no, our bodies do not belong tous, we have no rights over them
at all, like none, zero, not aever, even after childbirth, and
(24:27):
so, and that creates, you know,whole hosts of other problems
which we can get into laterpodcast.
But yeah, it just it's so, it'sso sad and it's it's just so
harmful and it's creating.
(24:48):
It's created really thisepidemic of marriages where
there's, like this power dynamicthat really, oftentimes, you
know, the husband isn't evenwhere exists because, again,
like I mentioned earlier, a wifefeels shame and guilt, that she
(25:12):
has these feelings of, you know, being feeling obligated to to
have sex with her husband whenshe doesn't want to.
She feels shame and guilt, thatit's a chore and she doesn't
want it and but she won't talkabout it and so, like there's
again there's like this, justthis odd power dynamic that
(25:36):
neither one of them is reallyaware exists within the marriage
and it's it really, it affectsthe marriage in all areas, not
just in, you know, the sexualrelationship, but it affects
them in all areas and, like, inorder for a marriage to be, you
know, truly healthy.
(25:56):
You need to be able tocommunicate those kinds of
feelings to your husband and youneed to be.
You need to know that you knowyou're going to be hard and
you're going to be emotionallysafe and, like.
A woman needs that.
And in a lot of cases, a womandoesn't know that when she's
raised with you know theobligation sex message, and when
(26:18):
she's raised with impurityculture, she's taught that her
voice does not matter and herbody is not her own, and so she
never feels like she canactually speak up and say I
don't like this and I I wantthis to change.
And so, like I feel like ourfirst steps to break out of this
(26:44):
cycle of you know obligationsex and you know purity culture
is to start teaching our girlsthat you do have a voice.
If someone you know just likebasic things, like you know if
someone is touching you that youdon't like, even if it's just a
hug or or just you know theyjust want to give you a hug,
(27:05):
it's okay to say no because yourbody is your own.
No is a complete sentence, nois an answer, even when you're
married.
And that starts with teachingour girls from a very young age
and I'm talking young toddlers,as you know as young as when
(27:26):
they start talking, learning howto speak.
Start teaching them you knowbodily autonomy and how to say
no and that their bodies aretheir own, and teach them
healthy boundaries.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of All Our Little Messes
(27:48):
.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
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(28:10):
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