October 26, 2023 • 26 mins
Send me a text and let me know what you thought of this episode!
You ever wonder how a book can drastically impact one's life? Join me as I recount my personal journey with the controversial book 'How to Train Up a Child'. This exploration dives head-first into the realm of corporal punishment and the cultural acceptance found among some Christian and Catholic households. Discover how the evolution of this book through its various editions echoes society's shifting mindset towards child discipline. More importantly, hear about the moment I realized that I couldn't use the principles from this book when I had my own children, and how that sparked a change in my perspective on child rearing.
Fasten your seatbelts as we take a hard look at the messages 'How to Train Up a Child' sends to our most impressionable minds - young children. Prepare for an honest examination of the potentially damaging effects of corporal punishment, and the contradictions this book presents, such as its stance on using the 'rod' for both training and discipline. I'll take you through the complexities a baby might face when subjected to this form of discipline, considering their cognitive development (or lack thereof) in understanding their actions. This is an unfiltered, candid exploration of a sensitive topic that continues to stir the pot in modern parenting circles. Are you ready for this raw ride?
If you like this show and believe in its message, please consider supporting our Patreon. For as little as $3/month, get access to behind the scenes content, early access to podcast episodes and more!
Send any questions or comments to allourlittlemesses@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you guys!
Subscribe to the newsletter here to get periodic updates on blog posts and more!
Buy Me a Coffee!
If you liked this episode, consider buying me a coffee! It'll help keep me awake during late night editing sessions. Thank you!
Follow me on Instagram and Facebook for behind the scenes content and everyday posts about parenting and marriage.
Sounds from Zapsplat.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello, welcome back to All OurLittle Messes.
(00:32):
This week we're going to betalking a little bit more about
corporal punishment and the book, especially the book how to
Train Deeper Child.
I spoke a little bit about theimpact of the book on my life
and just the big role it playedon my upbringing and things like
(00:53):
that.
I talked a little bit aboutthat during the first couple
episodes of this podcast andthen I kind of took a break from
it because it was.
It's honestly hard to talkabout.
It's just a very harsh way totreat a child and like I've come
so far from that belief systemthat now, when I look at it from
(01:18):
the outside, it's honestly justit's very sad and it kind of
gives me a sort of a mini mentalbreakdown just to even really
talk about it sometimes, justbecause it's just so abusive in
my mind to treat another humanbeing this way and to make
(01:40):
excuses for it, simply becausethey're smaller than you and
weaker than you.
So yeah, I just wanted to talka little bit about that book and
about the whole culture aroundit, and I actually have.
I was lucky enough to trackdown a first edition of the book
to train a child, because theymay.
(02:05):
So they've issued severaleditions I think they're on
either the fourth or fifthedition at this point and the
first edition has a lot ofthings in it that they removed
in later editions just becausethey weren't as in my mind.
I feel like they just removedthem because they weren't
politically correct enough toinclude in later editions and
(02:28):
they were getting a lot ofbacklash for some of the stuff
they said.
They had to find a gentler wayto say the things that they were
trying to say, and so theycouldn't be as direct.
So, but yeah, I was luckyenough to track down a first
edition of the book and thethings I was reading it just.
I mean, I first read the bookwhen I was probably 12 or 13
(02:50):
years old and I was given thebook to read so that I would
know how to discipline myyounger siblings is what is the
reason I was given.
So the book has had a verycentral place in my life when it
(03:12):
came to discipline and childbearing and things like that.
It was, like, you know, theauthority that was kind of
followed there.
And so, yeah, I read the bookand I was, you know, encouraged
to use the principles in thatbook when I was discipline,
disciplining, slash, babysittingmy younger siblings from you
(03:36):
know as early on as I think itwas.
Again, I was like 12 or 13years old when I was given the
book to read and then I was alsogiven the books no Greater Joy,
which is like a small bookseries.
They have no Greater Joy bookone and they have a book too as
well.
And no Greater Joy is also thename of the author's ministry.
(03:56):
I guess they, you could saythey call it no Greater Joy
Ministries.
It's Michael and Debbie Pearlis the name of the authors of
these books.
So like how I understood childbearing and discipline was
influenced from a very young ageby these people and by these
(04:18):
books and like I grew upthinking and believing that
these principles were the way togo, this was just how you raise
kids and it wasn't like itwasn't based on any kind of
Christian or Catholic doctrine,it wasn't based on the Bible at
all.
It was just, you know,something I haven't taught to
believe and so I just I neverquestioned it until I had my own
(04:41):
kids.
And I mean, like before I hadmy own children, my husband and
I talked about child raising alot when we were dating and like
our whole thing was, you know,spanking isn't necessarily bad,
but it should be, you know alast case, you know a worst case
(05:03):
scenario, kind of thing.
It's just like you know, it'sthe last thing you do.
And so when we got married, itwas you know, we're gonna try
everything else and if nothingelse works, then I guess we'll
have to spend the kid, kind ofthing.
So that was kind of what we hadin place when we got married.
And then when we actually hadour, our first child, our son, I
(05:26):
was just like, oh my gosh, Ican't, I can't do this, I can't
do this.
So that's kind of when westarted to change things.
So I was like I can't, I can'tapply this.
This is a.
This feels so sick, this feelsso wrong.
So that was when we we startedto change things is when we had
our own kids.
But yeah, I just want to talkabout the book a little bit,
(05:49):
because it has a very Big place.
It's a very central place in inchild rearing, within
fundamentalist christianity andwithin traditional catholicism
too.
Um, people are big supportersof these books.
I Don't remember a householdGrowing up that you know we were
(06:14):
friends with.
I didn't have a copy of thisbook and so you know it was just
a way of life almost.
It was just, you know, acceptedand this is what you do.
This is how you raise your kidsif you want them to be, you
know, upstanding citizens, ifyou want them to be good people
(06:36):
and it was actually kind of Ajoke, it became like a joke or
or the borderline joke.
You know, if someone saw someoneelse being, you know, their
kids were being bratty inwalmart or whatever it was oh,
they don't spank their kids orthey don't discipline their kids
(06:57):
because, again, within thisculture, they use Different
words.
So that you have to soften,because you know the reality.
The reality of this culture Isthat you are hitting your kids.
You are hitting your kids andyou can look at it any way you
(07:19):
want to, but when it comes downto it, you are hitting your kids
and so, in order to To justifythat and soften that reality.
And within your own mind, you,we, you know we change the
language right, so we would usewords like discipline or train
(07:41):
or spank, things like that To tochange the reality of the fact
that we are hitting our own kids.
And so, you know, we'd seeSomeone in walmart with, you
know, a child that was being atoddler and was having a
difficult time learning how tomanage their own emotions,
(08:03):
because, again, they're atoddler and they haven't been
taught that skill or they'restill learning that skill.
And the automatic assumption wasoh, you know, that kid is a
brat because he doesn't getspanked.
And so it became like this Uh,I am a better parent Because I
(08:25):
spanked my kids, kind of thing.
So, and it wasn't necessarily adirect, like you know, when you
say a comment like that is notnecessarily, you know, a
reflection on On the child, it'sa reflection on the parents,
right?
So you have a bratty kid.
You don't discipline your kid.
Without knowing Anycircumstances surrounding that
(08:48):
parents life, what their day hasbeen like, what their beliefs
are, whether or not they dodiscipline their kid, whether or
not their kid is, you know,autistic or ADHD or anything
like that, you justautomatically assume, oh, that
parent doesn't spank their kids,they are a bad parent, they
don't love their children.
That was another one.
If you don't spank your kids,you don't love your kids.
(09:09):
I was told that a lot.
I do this because I love you,or this hurts me more than it
hurts you, which is kind ofironic to think about it,
because, like you know, I reallydoubt this is hurting you more
than it's hurting me because,like Dude, this doesn't feel
good.
But yeah, that was, that waskind of like the whole culture
(09:29):
surrounding is.
You know it changed it and itchanged the change, the language
surrounding this bit, thehitting and and you know I do
this because I'm a good parentkind of thing.
So you have to make yourselffeel better about what you're
doing before you start doing it,otherwise you won't be able to
(09:51):
get through it because it isabuse and it is sick and it is
wrong.
So you have to change thereality, otherwise you just
cannot do it.
So that was Kind of like,that's kind of like the, I would
say, the foundation of theculture really surrounding the
surrounding this book and likethe biggest, I feel like one of
(10:16):
the most common words You'regoing to find in this book.
There's.
The three of the most commonwords I've ever found I found in
this book was training,discipline and the rod and that
they they use.
So they like to say that thewords training, discipline,
(10:37):
chastisement and spanking areall different things but they'll
use them interchangeablythroughout the entire book.
One thing that I came acrossthat was really messed up to me
(10:57):
and just kind of sick was achapter that was written by
Debbie Pearl talking about howshe would train her children.
She called it Blanket.
It was like Blanket time.
The Duggers used this method aswell and they would basically
(11:23):
set the baby because again,these are all babies that
they're doing this to.
So the youngest instance Ifound in this first edition of
the book was four months old,where they used a 12 inch long,
quarter inch in diameter willowbranch to spank their four month
(11:44):
old baby for trying to climbthe stairs.
So as young as four months old,they were hitting their kids
with willow branches forexploring their environment that
the parents had failed to childproof.
(12:06):
So, going back to what I wastalking about before, they would
set up these trainingenvironments, essentially
setting the child up for failure, setting the baby up to be
spanked.
So they would set up thistraining environment.
(12:27):
They would like lay out ablanket, put the baby on the
blanket and put a toy just outof reach, and then they tell the
baby no again.
We're starting at like four tosix months old when they're
doing this and when the baby,who does not understand the
concept of the word no and stillwon't understand the concept of
the word no after the trainingsession, if we want to call it
that would the child would reachfor the toy because it's
(12:49):
something interesting, she'sexploring her environment, she's
trying to understand the worldaround her, so she reaches for
the toy and immediately getsspanked.
And they called this trainingand they really hammered down on
(13:09):
the fact in the book.
They really hammered down onthe fact that this was not
considered spanking.
This was not spanking, this wasnot discipline, this was
training.
And so I actually shouldprobably pull up that quote and
(13:29):
read it to you guys, because itwas actually kind of shocking to
come up with it, like to comeacross this, because I was just
like what in the world ishappening.
So here's the expert or excerptfrom the book.
There is much satisfaction intraining up a child.
It is easy and challenging.
(13:51):
When my children were able tocrawl in the case of one role
around the room, I set uptraining sessions.
Try it yourself.
Place an appealing object wherethey can reach it, maybe in a
no-no corner or on an applejuice table.
That's what they would call thecoffee table in this house.
I guess they call it the applejuice table when they spy it and
(14:13):
make a dive for it, because youknow, four month old, six month
old babies dive for objects.
When they spy it and make adive for it and a convoy say no,
don't touch it, they willalready be familiar with the no
and I'm not sure how they wouldbe familiar with the no at four
to six months old.
They will pause, look at you inwonder and then turn around and
(14:37):
grab it, switch their hand andsimultaneously say no.
Remember you are notdisciplining, you are training.
Once spat with a little switchis enough, they will again pull
back their hand and consider therelationship between the object
, their desire, the command andthe little reinforcing pain.
It may take several times, butif you are consistent they will
(15:01):
learn to consistently obey, evenin your absence.
And what I find very interestingabout this whole paragraph is
that elsewhere in the book theytalk about how a child actually
have a screenshot of that one aswell.
They assume the child hasenough intellectual development
(15:29):
to make rational decisions andhave, you know, logical thought.
Six months old, you knowconsidering the relationship
between the word no, consideringwhat the word no means.
It's like, it's like no, theydon't have.
It's insane to me, and likeeven in this paragraph here.
(15:51):
If you are the principalcaretaker of your child, your
heart will be able to discernthe world from his perspective.
When the child believes it iswrong, it is wrong.
Where there is moralunderstanding and he disobeys,
he should be punished with therod.
Where there is lack ofunderstanding of the moral
quality of his actions, heshould be trained and
(16:11):
conditioned.
Sometimes the you, the rod, isused in training.
More will be said about thislater.
So they already say that thereis a lack of understanding about
the moral quality of hisactions.
There's a lack of understandingin the child.
They have the.
They do not have the ability tothink rationally and logically
(16:32):
about their actions or even theactions of those around them.
But let me pull this up here inthis paragraph.
You're the first one, I, I, youknow, I read to you.
They claim that a six-month-oldbaby has the ability to consider
(16:54):
the relationship between theobject, their desire, the
command and the littlereinforcing pain, and that's
just insane to me.
They're not.
They're not thinking about therelationship between anything.
They don't have theintellectual development to do
that.
Yet they are very well whenwe're that young, we're, we're
(17:18):
creatures that run solely oninstinct.
Okay, we don't have the abilityto think of, you know, to think
rational thought like that.
And so when you hit a baby thatyoung, their bodies and their
brains automatically are goinginto fight or flight.
The only thing that ishappening is that in their brain
(17:40):
is survival mode.
That is it.
Their bodies are flooded withcortisol, okay, and that is the
only thing that is happening.
There is no rational thoughtgoing on.
They're not considering therelationship between anything.
The only thing that might behappening inside of their minds
(18:01):
or bodies at that time is whocreated the pain that was just
inflicted on their body.
And instead of seeing you, asyou know, the person who, who
comforted them and fed them andloved them and who was their
safety, now they're going to seeyou and because of the cortisol
(18:24):
flooding their bodies and thereaction inside of their brains
and the fight and flight reflexthat their bodies automatically
went into.
That relationship has now beenchanged.
Instead of being their safety,you are now also a source of
their pain, and they are goingto subconsciously know that.
And so they haven't, you know,learned to know.
(18:46):
They've just learned to fearyou at four months old.
And like this is something thatthese people, you know they
actually encourage, and I just,I don't, I don't understand, I
really don't understand thatkind of mentality at all.
So, yeah, they, they.
(19:10):
And again, like you could see inthat paragraph as well, and
within the and in the otherparagraph I read to you, they
use the words training anddiscipline interchangeably to
mean the same exact thing.
And yet throughout the bookthey'll also claim that training
and discipline are twodifferent things, like they'll
claim that if you start trainingearly, then you won't need to
(19:31):
discipline.
But then they also, later on inthe book, claim that the rod
can be used for both trainingand discipline, which kind of
implies that there is nodifference between the two, for
at least in these people's minds.
And so I mean just the amountof contradiction and and
(19:55):
reaching that these people do tojustify their behavior and
actions towards their ownoffspring is just mind-blowing
to me, like it's just, it's ahuge stretch in so many ways and
it's it's really, it's justreally messed up, you know, and
(20:18):
like I said, like when I firstread the paragraph where they
were talking about using aswitch, a willow branch, on a
baby as young as four months old, the situation, I guess, was
she was trying to climb thestairs and she didn't.
She was an early crawler,apparently tried to climb the
(20:41):
stairs, like try to go up one ofthe steps, and mom yelled no,
and the baby looked at her andthen kept going.
And so she said that she had tobreak the defiance from the
child's will, and so she, shegave her a switch with with it
(21:01):
wasn't a willow branch, no, no,this was a willow branch in this
case.
Yes, she used the willow branchon the back of the baby's legs,
the four month old's legs, tobreak the defiance, to break the
child's will, because obviouslywhen she looked at her she was
just you know, and thencontinued she was just being
defiant, had you know, nothingto do with the fact that she's
(21:22):
four months old and doesn'tunderstand anything about the
world around her, beyond whereher food comes from, and yeah,
so she switched her with awillow branch and called it
training, even though, again,like they use that word, you
(21:45):
know training and disciplineinterchangeably.
So this wasn't a trainingsession in there.
This case it would have been adiscipline because she had
already, you know, performed theaction without being set up.
She'd already performed the youknow the action that they
didn't like.
So this would have beentechnically disciplined.
(22:05):
But you know we can't call itdiscipline because discipline
and form and soul, just you know, don't sound very good together
apparently.
So you know we're gonna call ittraining, we're training the
four month old and just thestretch and and the length they
went to to justify hitting thatfour month old baby in this book
(22:28):
was just absolutely sickening.
Like I felt sick to my stomachwhen I read this and like I feel
, like I think I think I read alater edition of the book the
first time I read it, because Idon't remember any of this, this
situation in the edition I read, and again, of course, I was
(22:49):
like 12 years old, so this waslike 15 plus years ago at this
point now, and so I I mean, andagain it probably wouldn't have
stuck in my mind anyways,because at that point in my life
I mean, I completely andtotally bought into the hole.
You have to spank kids in orderto have good kids and if you
(23:10):
don't spank your kids, you won'thave good kids.
If you don't spank your kids,you hate your kids.
That was another thing that wastold.
You know, told to me was youhate your kids if you don't
spank them.
Obviously you hate them becausethen they won't behave.
And what I find Hilarious aboutthat is that, you know, I don't
spank my kids and my kidsbehave just fine.
(23:32):
And you know that we have ahealthy emotional attachment and
it's, you know, just a normalparent child relationship.
As far as I could tell, I amstill learning, so I can't, you
know, pretend that I'm a perfectparent, because I am not, but
any stretch of the imagination,but it's just.
You know, it's funny to mebecause you know it's entirely
(23:55):
possible to raise a childwithout hitting them.
But these people will go aroundsaying, you know, he who hates
his son, you know, spares therod or something like that,
without even realizing what thatmeans.
And so yeah, they'll, you know,use a switch or a rod, as they
call it on a child.
(24:15):
I was young, this four monthsold, and call it training and
think it's okay and thenencourage other other parents to
do the same and it's really,really sick and it's really
messed up.
So I wanted to do a couple, acouple episodes on this, because
it's going to take a coupleepisodes to get through this
(24:37):
book.
I barely scratched the surface.
I mean, I barely scratched thesurface on their blanket
training and things like thatand they.
They focus also really heavilyon breaking a child's will and
and you know how, how childrenshow willfulness at just you
know, being a newborn Only beinga newborn you know a child has
(25:00):
the ability to show willfulnessand defiance as young as being a
newborn.
So, yeah, I'll be.
I'll be talking a lot aboutabout this book here in the next
couple episodes and also howthis book influences other parts
of fundamentalist Christianityand traditional Catholicism.
So I hope you guys will tune inevery week and don't forget to
(25:23):
hit that follow button andDownload my episodes every week
so that you guys can getnotifications when I have any
episode come out, because theycome out every single Thursday
at 5 am Brighten early so youguys can listen to it on your
morning commute to work.
So I will talk to you guys allnext week.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of all our little
(25:51):
messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson patreon for amazing
exclusive perks, including earlyaccess to podcast episodes and
bonus episodes every month.
We've also recently added asupport group for all of our
(26:13):
paid patrons.
You can check us out onFacebook and Instagram for daily
updates and insights thatmirror podcast topics.
Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
You
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello, welcome back to All OurLittle Messes.
(00:32):
This week we're going to betalking a little bit more about
corporal punishment and the book, especially the book how to
Train Deeper Child.
I spoke a little bit about theimpact of the book on my life
and just the big role it playedon my upbringing and things like
(00:53):
that.
I talked a little bit aboutthat during the first couple
episodes of this podcast andthen I kind of took a break from
it because it was.
It's honestly hard to talkabout.
It's just a very harsh way totreat a child and like I've come
so far from that belief systemthat now, when I look at it from
(01:18):
the outside, it's honestly justit's very sad and it kind of
gives me a sort of a mini mentalbreakdown just to even really
talk about it sometimes, justbecause it's just so abusive in
my mind to treat another humanbeing this way and to make
(01:40):
excuses for it, simply becausethey're smaller than you and
weaker than you.
So yeah, I just wanted to talka little bit about that book and
about the whole culture aroundit, and I actually have.
I was lucky enough to trackdown a first edition of the book
to train a child, because theymay.
(02:05):
So they've issued severaleditions I think they're on
either the fourth or fifthedition at this point and the
first edition has a lot ofthings in it that they removed
in later editions just becausethey weren't as in my mind.
I feel like they just removedthem because they weren't
politically correct enough toinclude in later editions and
(02:28):
they were getting a lot ofbacklash for some of the stuff
they said.
They had to find a gentler wayto say the things that they were
trying to say, and so theycouldn't be as direct.
So, but yeah, I was luckyenough to track down a first
edition of the book and thethings I was reading it just.
I mean, I first read the bookwhen I was probably 12 or 13
(02:50):
years old and I was given thebook to read so that I would
know how to discipline myyounger siblings is what is the
reason I was given.
So the book has had a verycentral place in my life when it
(03:12):
came to discipline and childbearing and things like that.
It was, like, you know, theauthority that was kind of
followed there.
And so, yeah, I read the bookand I was, you know, encouraged
to use the principles in thatbook when I was discipline,
disciplining, slash, babysittingmy younger siblings from you
(03:36):
know as early on as I think itwas.
Again, I was like 12 or 13years old when I was given the
book to read and then I was alsogiven the books no Greater Joy,
which is like a small bookseries.
They have no Greater Joy bookone and they have a book too as
well.
And no Greater Joy is also thename of the author's ministry.
(03:56):
I guess they, you could saythey call it no Greater Joy
Ministries.
It's Michael and Debbie Pearlis the name of the authors of
these books.
So like how I understood childbearing and discipline was
influenced from a very young ageby these people and by these
(04:18):
books and like I grew upthinking and believing that
these principles were the way togo, this was just how you raise
kids and it wasn't like itwasn't based on any kind of
Christian or Catholic doctrine,it wasn't based on the Bible at
all.
It was just, you know,something I haven't taught to
believe and so I just I neverquestioned it until I had my own
(04:41):
kids.
And I mean, like before I hadmy own children, my husband and
I talked about child raising alot when we were dating and like
our whole thing was, you know,spanking isn't necessarily bad,
but it should be, you know alast case, you know a worst case
(05:03):
scenario, kind of thing.
It's just like you know, it'sthe last thing you do.
And so when we got married, itwas you know, we're gonna try
everything else and if nothingelse works, then I guess we'll
have to spend the kid, kind ofthing.
So that was kind of what we hadin place when we got married.
And then when we actually hadour, our first child, our son, I
(05:26):
was just like, oh my gosh, Ican't, I can't do this, I can't
do this.
So that's kind of when westarted to change things.
So I was like I can't, I can'tapply this.
This is a.
This feels so sick, this feelsso wrong.
So that was when we we startedto change things is when we had
our own kids.
But yeah, I just want to talkabout the book a little bit,
(05:49):
because it has a very Big place.
It's a very central place in inchild rearing, within
fundamentalist christianity andwithin traditional catholicism
too.
Um, people are big supportersof these books.
I Don't remember a householdGrowing up that you know we were
(06:14):
friends with.
I didn't have a copy of thisbook and so you know it was just
a way of life almost.
It was just, you know, acceptedand this is what you do.
This is how you raise your kidsif you want them to be, you
know, upstanding citizens, ifyou want them to be good people
(06:36):
and it was actually kind of Ajoke, it became like a joke or
or the borderline joke.
You know, if someone saw someoneelse being, you know, their
kids were being bratty inwalmart or whatever it was oh,
they don't spank their kids orthey don't discipline their kids
(06:57):
because, again, within thisculture, they use Different
words.
So that you have to soften,because you know the reality.
The reality of this culture Isthat you are hitting your kids.
You are hitting your kids andyou can look at it any way you
(07:19):
want to, but when it comes downto it, you are hitting your kids
and so, in order to To justifythat and soften that reality.
And within your own mind, you,we, you know we change the
language right, so we would usewords like discipline or train
(07:41):
or spank, things like that To tochange the reality of the fact
that we are hitting our own kids.
And so, you know, we'd seeSomeone in walmart with, you
know, a child that was being atoddler and was having a
difficult time learning how tomanage their own emotions,
(08:03):
because, again, they're atoddler and they haven't been
taught that skill or they'restill learning that skill.
And the automatic assumption wasoh, you know, that kid is a
brat because he doesn't getspanked.
And so it became like this Uh,I am a better parent Because I
(08:25):
spanked my kids, kind of thing.
So, and it wasn't necessarily adirect, like you know, when you
say a comment like that is notnecessarily, you know, a
reflection on On the child, it'sa reflection on the parents,
right?
So you have a bratty kid.
You don't discipline your kid.
Without knowing Anycircumstances surrounding that
(08:48):
parents life, what their day hasbeen like, what their beliefs
are, whether or not they dodiscipline their kid, whether or
not their kid is, you know,autistic or ADHD or anything
like that, you justautomatically assume, oh, that
parent doesn't spank their kids,they are a bad parent, they
don't love their children.
That was another one.
If you don't spank your kids,you don't love your kids.
(09:09):
I was told that a lot.
I do this because I love you,or this hurts me more than it
hurts you, which is kind ofironic to think about it,
because, like you know, I reallydoubt this is hurting you more
than it's hurting me because,like Dude, this doesn't feel
good.
But yeah, that was, that waskind of like the whole culture
(09:29):
surrounding is.
You know it changed it and itchanged the change, the language
surrounding this bit, thehitting and and you know I do
this because I'm a good parentkind of thing.
So you have to make yourselffeel better about what you're
doing before you start doing it,otherwise you won't be able to
(09:51):
get through it because it isabuse and it is sick and it is
wrong.
So you have to change thereality, otherwise you just
cannot do it.
So that was Kind of like,that's kind of like the, I would
say, the foundation of theculture really surrounding the
surrounding this book and likethe biggest, I feel like one of
(10:16):
the most common words You'regoing to find in this book.
There's.
The three of the most commonwords I've ever found I found in
this book was training,discipline and the rod and that
they they use.
So they like to say that thewords training, discipline,
(10:37):
chastisement and spanking areall different things but they'll
use them interchangeablythroughout the entire book.
One thing that I came acrossthat was really messed up to me
(10:57):
and just kind of sick was achapter that was written by
Debbie Pearl talking about howshe would train her children.
She called it Blanket.
It was like Blanket time.
The Duggers used this method aswell and they would basically
(11:23):
set the baby because again,these are all babies that
they're doing this to.
So the youngest instance Ifound in this first edition of
the book was four months old,where they used a 12 inch long,
quarter inch in diameter willowbranch to spank their four month
(11:44):
old baby for trying to climbthe stairs.
So as young as four months old,they were hitting their kids
with willow branches forexploring their environment that
the parents had failed to childproof.
(12:06):
So, going back to what I wastalking about before, they would
set up these trainingenvironments, essentially
setting the child up for failure, setting the baby up to be
spanked.
So they would set up thistraining environment.
(12:27):
They would like lay out ablanket, put the baby on the
blanket and put a toy just outof reach, and then they tell the
baby no again.
We're starting at like four tosix months old when they're
doing this and when the baby,who does not understand the
concept of the word no and stillwon't understand the concept of
the word no after the trainingsession, if we want to call it
that would the child would reachfor the toy because it's
(12:49):
something interesting, she'sexploring her environment, she's
trying to understand the worldaround her, so she reaches for
the toy and immediately getsspanked.
And they called this trainingand they really hammered down on
(13:09):
the fact in the book.
They really hammered down onthe fact that this was not
considered spanking.
This was not spanking, this wasnot discipline, this was
training.
And so I actually shouldprobably pull up that quote and
(13:29):
read it to you guys, because itwas actually kind of shocking to
come up with it, like to comeacross this, because I was just
like what in the world ishappening.
So here's the expert or excerptfrom the book.
There is much satisfaction intraining up a child.
It is easy and challenging.
(13:51):
When my children were able tocrawl in the case of one role
around the room, I set uptraining sessions.
Try it yourself.
Place an appealing object wherethey can reach it, maybe in a
no-no corner or on an applejuice table.
That's what they would call thecoffee table in this house.
I guess they call it the applejuice table when they spy it and
(14:13):
make a dive for it, because youknow, four month old, six month
old babies dive for objects.
When they spy it and make adive for it and a convoy say no,
don't touch it, they willalready be familiar with the no
and I'm not sure how they wouldbe familiar with the no at four
to six months old.
They will pause, look at you inwonder and then turn around and
(14:37):
grab it, switch their hand andsimultaneously say no.
Remember you are notdisciplining, you are training.
Once spat with a little switchis enough, they will again pull
back their hand and consider therelationship between the object
, their desire, the command andthe little reinforcing pain.
It may take several times, butif you are consistent they will
(15:01):
learn to consistently obey, evenin your absence.
And what I find very interestingabout this whole paragraph is
that elsewhere in the book theytalk about how a child actually
have a screenshot of that one aswell.
They assume the child hasenough intellectual development
(15:29):
to make rational decisions andhave, you know, logical thought.
Six months old, you knowconsidering the relationship
between the word no, consideringwhat the word no means.
It's like, it's like no, theydon't have.
It's insane to me, and likeeven in this paragraph here.
(15:51):
If you are the principalcaretaker of your child, your
heart will be able to discernthe world from his perspective.
When the child believes it iswrong, it is wrong.
Where there is moralunderstanding and he disobeys,
he should be punished with therod.
Where there is lack ofunderstanding of the moral
quality of his actions, heshould be trained and
(16:11):
conditioned.
Sometimes the you, the rod, isused in training.
More will be said about thislater.
So they already say that thereis a lack of understanding about
the moral quality of hisactions.
There's a lack of understandingin the child.
They have the.
They do not have the ability tothink rationally and logically
(16:32):
about their actions or even theactions of those around them.
But let me pull this up here inthis paragraph.
You're the first one, I, I, youknow, I read to you.
They claim that a six-month-oldbaby has the ability to consider
(16:54):
the relationship between theobject, their desire, the
command and the littlereinforcing pain, and that's
just insane to me.
They're not.
They're not thinking about therelationship between anything.
They don't have theintellectual development to do
that.
Yet they are very well whenwe're that young, we're, we're
(17:18):
creatures that run solely oninstinct.
Okay, we don't have the abilityto think of, you know, to think
rational thought like that.
And so when you hit a baby thatyoung, their bodies and their
brains automatically are goinginto fight or flight.
The only thing that ishappening is that in their brain
(17:40):
is survival mode.
That is it.
Their bodies are flooded withcortisol, okay, and that is the
only thing that is happening.
There is no rational thoughtgoing on.
They're not considering therelationship between anything.
The only thing that might behappening inside of their minds
(18:01):
or bodies at that time is whocreated the pain that was just
inflicted on their body.
And instead of seeing you, asyou know, the person who, who
comforted them and fed them andloved them and who was their
safety, now they're going to seeyou and because of the cortisol
(18:24):
flooding their bodies and thereaction inside of their brains
and the fight and flight reflexthat their bodies automatically
went into.
That relationship has now beenchanged.
Instead of being their safety,you are now also a source of
their pain, and they are goingto subconsciously know that.
And so they haven't, you know,learned to know.
(18:46):
They've just learned to fearyou at four months old.
And like this is something thatthese people, you know they
actually encourage, and I just,I don't, I don't understand, I
really don't understand thatkind of mentality at all.
So, yeah, they, they.
(19:10):
And again, like you could see inthat paragraph as well, and
within the and in the otherparagraph I read to you, they
use the words training anddiscipline interchangeably to
mean the same exact thing.
And yet throughout the bookthey'll also claim that training
and discipline are twodifferent things, like they'll
claim that if you start trainingearly, then you won't need to
(19:31):
discipline.
But then they also, later on inthe book, claim that the rod
can be used for both trainingand discipline, which kind of
implies that there is nodifference between the two, for
at least in these people's minds.
And so I mean just the amountof contradiction and and
(19:55):
reaching that these people do tojustify their behavior and
actions towards their ownoffspring is just mind-blowing
to me, like it's just, it's ahuge stretch in so many ways and
it's it's really, it's justreally messed up, you know, and
(20:18):
like I said, like when I firstread the paragraph where they
were talking about using aswitch, a willow branch, on a
baby as young as four months old, the situation, I guess, was
she was trying to climb thestairs and she didn't.
She was an early crawler,apparently tried to climb the
(20:41):
stairs, like try to go up one ofthe steps, and mom yelled no,
and the baby looked at her andthen kept going.
And so she said that she had tobreak the defiance from the
child's will, and so she, shegave her a switch with with it
(21:01):
wasn't a willow branch, no, no,this was a willow branch in this
case.
Yes, she used the willow branchon the back of the baby's legs,
the four month old's legs, tobreak the defiance, to break the
child's will, because obviouslywhen she looked at her she was
just you know, and thencontinued she was just being
defiant, had you know, nothingto do with the fact that she's
(21:22):
four months old and doesn'tunderstand anything about the
world around her, beyond whereher food comes from, and yeah,
so she switched her with awillow branch and called it
training, even though, again,like they use that word, you
(21:45):
know training and disciplineinterchangeably.
So this wasn't a trainingsession in there.
This case it would have been adiscipline because she had
already, you know, performed theaction without being set up.
She'd already performed the youknow the action that they
didn't like.
So this would have beentechnically disciplined.
(22:05):
But you know we can't call itdiscipline because discipline
and form and soul, just you know, don't sound very good together
apparently.
So you know we're gonna call ittraining, we're training the
four month old and just thestretch and and the length they
went to to justify hitting thatfour month old baby in this book
(22:28):
was just absolutely sickening.
Like I felt sick to my stomachwhen I read this and like I feel
, like I think I think I read alater edition of the book the
first time I read it, because Idon't remember any of this, this
situation in the edition I read, and again, of course, I was
(22:49):
like 12 years old, so this waslike 15 plus years ago at this
point now, and so I I mean, andagain it probably wouldn't have
stuck in my mind anyways,because at that point in my life
I mean, I completely andtotally bought into the hole.
You have to spank kids in orderto have good kids and if you
(23:10):
don't spank your kids, you won'thave good kids.
If you don't spank your kids,you hate your kids.
That was another thing that wastold.
You know, told to me was youhate your kids if you don't
spank them.
Obviously you hate them becausethen they won't behave.
And what I find Hilarious aboutthat is that, you know, I don't
spank my kids and my kidsbehave just fine.
(23:32):
And you know that we have ahealthy emotional attachment and
it's, you know, just a normalparent child relationship.
As far as I could tell, I amstill learning, so I can't, you
know, pretend that I'm a perfectparent, because I am not, but
any stretch of the imagination,but it's just.
You know, it's funny to mebecause you know it's entirely
(23:55):
possible to raise a childwithout hitting them.
But these people will go aroundsaying, you know, he who hates
his son, you know, spares therod or something like that,
without even realizing what thatmeans.
And so yeah, they'll, you know,use a switch or a rod, as they
call it on a child.
(24:15):
I was young, this four monthsold, and call it training and
think it's okay and thenencourage other other parents to
do the same and it's really,really sick and it's really
messed up.
So I wanted to do a couple, acouple episodes on this, because
it's going to take a coupleepisodes to get through this
(24:37):
book.
I barely scratched the surface.
I mean, I barely scratched thesurface on their blanket
training and things like thatand they.
They focus also really heavilyon breaking a child's will and
and you know how, how childrenshow willfulness at just you
know, being a newborn Only beinga newborn you know a child has
(25:00):
the ability to show willfulnessand defiance as young as being a
newborn.
So, yeah, I'll be.
I'll be talking a lot aboutabout this book here in the next
couple episodes and also howthis book influences other parts
of fundamentalist Christianityand traditional Catholicism.
So I hope you guys will tune inevery week and don't forget to
(25:23):
hit that follow button andDownload my episodes every week
so that you guys can getnotifications when I have any
episode come out, because theycome out every single Thursday
at 5 am Brighten early so youguys can listen to it on your
morning commute to work.
So I will talk to you guys allnext week.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of all our little
(25:51):
messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson patreon for amazing
exclusive perks, including earlyaccess to podcast episodes and
bonus episodes every month.
We've also recently added asupport group for all of our
(26:13):
paid patrons.
You can check us out onFacebook and Instagram for daily
updates and insights thatmirror podcast topics.
Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
You
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!