August 10, 2023 • 32 mins
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Opening your Bible to interpret the scripture can take you on a remarkable journey. But what happens when well-meaning advice like "spare the rod, spoil the child" gets lost in translation? We're on a mission to shed light on biblical parenting, giving it the deep dive it truly deserves.
We tackle the origins of the phrase "spare the rod" and tear down misconceptions about its meaning. Get ready to unlearn what you know about the 'rod' in the Bible as we reveal the true meaning of the word 'shabbat'. We analyze verses like Proverbs 13:24, Psalm 23:4 and Exodus 21:20, giving you a fresh perspective on how the rod was used in biblical times. But it's not all about discipline; Jesus taught about not provoking our children to anger and we're here to discuss the implications of these teachings on our parenting styles.
The episode concludes with a hard look at the questionable parenting methods suggested in some books and the risks they pose. We champion the cause of being a Christ-like parent, encouraging and disciplining our children with love and understanding. Biblical parenting is a journey, and we're here to guide you every step of the way. Tune in for an enlightening discussion that will transform your perspective on parenting.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to all our little messes.
A podcast focused on healingthrough intentional
conversations about parenting,relationships, religion, and
more.
I am your host Veronica Winrod,and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to all of our little messes
(00:31):
.
This is season one episodethree, and today we'll be
talking about the biblicalbackground in gentle parenting.
I like to
Speaker 2 (00:40):
start off by talking about why I feel like
Speaker 1 (00:43):
the concept of true biblical parenting needs to be
talked about in Christiancircles.
There is a couple verses in thebible that particular
Christians like to use as theirfoundation.
To justify their method ofparenting.
And just a little bit ofresearch shows that that is not
(01:06):
a very strong foundation to basetheir parenting on or base
their biblical their parentingdecisions on, their opinions on.
So,
Speaker 2 (01:18):
also, I feel like you know, saying things like
spirit, the god's boy, thechild, and saying that it's
Speaker 1 (01:25):
a biblical thing.
And, you know, saying that infront of your young children,
really sets them up to have thisthis false foundation of what
the Bible actually stands for.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that we we actually
study and read and find out whatthose verses actually meant and
(01:47):
how they're actually truthfullysupposed to be applied to our
parenting decisions and notjust, you know, fly by the seat
of our pants because you know,mister Stone and so, reverend,
so and so, father, so, and sofrom wherever said so.
Like, we really need toresearch this stuff for
ourselves so that our childrendon't have a twisted idea of of
(02:11):
scripture.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So I'd like to with that being said,
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'd like to go into the history of the phrase that a
lot of people seem to use and Alot of people seem to believe
is biblically based.
The phrase, spare the rod,spoil the child.
Now, I I grew up hearing thatphrase a lot.
It was in a lot of theparenting books that my family
(02:37):
had me read I I heard it fromteachers.
I heard it from various, youknow, priests.
And I heard it from like my ownparents and just like their
friends.
It was it was everywhere, andit was just a generally
accepted, oh, it's in
Speaker 2 (02:53):
the bible, spare the rods, boiler child, it's in the
bible.
And I I never questioned itactually until about a year and
a half, two years ago.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
When I was just scrolling through Instagram one
day, and I came across thisbiblical parenting page.
I don't actually even rememberthe name of the page anymore or
tell you guys, but I came acrossthis page that this account
that said that spare the rodspoil the child was not a
biblical phrase at all, and Ijust thought no way.
(03:27):
Like, there's just no way.
And they said that it came froma soterical poem written in the
sixteen hundreds.
And so I started researchingthe phrase, spare the rods by
the child.
And what I found justabsolutely shocked me, like, It
was it
Speaker 2 (03:47):
was it was it was it was almost scandalous.
Like, I couldn't believeChristians were taking this
phrase and applying it to tosmall children, to how they were
disciplining small childrenbecause, like, after reading
where this phrase actually camefrom, like, I was just I was
shocked.
You guys, like, it was I I Iwanted to laugh.
(04:09):
Like, I'm almost laughing rightnow.
Just thinking about thisbecause it's so it's just
absolutely ludicrous that thishas happened and has been
happening for the last four anda half centuries now.
Like, It's absolutely insane tome.
So the origin of the phrasewhere the rods spoil a child is
(04:29):
actually from a seventeenthcentury poem about a sexual
relationship between a widow, aprotestant, not a protestant,
sorry, a a
Speaker 1 (04:44):
prostitute.
And a man named Houdibros.
The name of the poem isHoudibros.
I believe I
Speaker 2 (04:52):
am pronouncing that right.
I could be wrong, but the poemwas written by a man named
Samuel Butler, and this wasduring a time when England was
kind of being taken over bypuritans and they're very
Speaker 1 (05:10):
purchanical ideas about sexual relationships and
things like that.
So he wrote this poem inmockery of of their practices.
And in that poem, It's it'sbasically about various it has a
(05:31):
couple verses in there aboutvarious sexual fetishes, but One
verse in particular is actuallywhere the phrase spare the
rock's bowler child comes from.
And it reads, what medicineelse can cure the fits of lovers
when they lose their wits.
Love is a boy by poet styled,then spare the rod and spoil the
child.
(05:51):
So in this verse, they take thelove, the sexual relationship
between these two lovers, thisman and this woman, in
particular, the the widow andHouda Ross.
And basically, they usespanking, and they espouse it as
(06:13):
a method to cure therelationship.
Should the relationship startto fail?
That the love is a boy by poetstyle.
So the love, the relationshipbetween them, is a boy, then
spare the rod.
Spoil the child.
So if you spare the rodspanking in the relationship,
then the child love will spoil.
(06:35):
So in order to save yourrelationship, you needed to
introduce spanking into it.
So they for whatever reason,parents in this time period
conveniently forgot about thewhole concept and point behind
(06:56):
the poem and behind this thisverse in particular, and they
really latched on to spare therods by the child.
So When the last This poem wasactually published in three
parts, and the last part waspublished in sixteen seventy
eight.
And it really became popular inthe sixteen sixties on.
(07:16):
The sixteen eighties is whenpeople started latching under
this quote and like spousing itas, you know, the biblical basis
for a corporal discipline inthe home.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And I say corporal discipline in the home, I'm not
talking just against, you know,just with children.
I'm talking about with, youknow, with your wife too.
Because that and that has awhole other phrase they call
that domestic discipline.
And that was also commonly used.
This phrase was actuallycommonly used to justify
domestic discipline against your
Speaker 1 (07:47):
wife.
So the actual
Speaker 2 (07:54):
viable verse that I believe, you know, if you're
gonna if you're gonna use youknow, the bible to justify
spanking in your home, then I Ifeel like people need to stop
quoting, spare the rods, spoilthe child.
I mean, just afterunderstanding it's it's basis, I
(08:16):
I feel I find it a little bitcreepy to use a poem on, you
know, written in mockery ofsexual fetishes.
As justification for spanking achild.
Like, I I find that slightlycreepy that this has been going
on for four and a half centuriesnow.
And nobody's really blinking aneye about it.
(08:39):
Like, nobody's I mean, you lookat it.
You can look it up online.
Like, it's everywhere.
There's articles and studiesand all kinds of stuff by, you
know, university professors andbible experts and everything
else, you know, that are writtenon this.
But in fundamentalist Christiancircles, In, like, traditional
religious circles, nobody talksabout this.
(09:02):
And I find that a little bitconcerning that Nobody's talking
about the fact that we're usinga sexual poem to justify
speaking her children like,that's That's a little bit sick
and twisted.
So that needs to obviously stopso that we
Speaker 1 (09:20):
can actually get back to true.
Biblical parenting.
And if I
Speaker 2 (09:26):
mean, if you're gonna if you're gonna use the bible
to justify speaking your child,then I feel proverbs thirteen
twenty four needs to be the onethat you're gonna start quoting.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
If you're gonna start quoting anything, you need to
start quoting thirteen Proverbsthirteen twenty four, which
actually says, he that spareshis rod, hateth his son, but he
that lovelth him chases intohim, be times.
And so a lot of people actuallytake the word rod in that verse
(09:57):
and actually in it's it's allthroughout Proverbs and the Old
Testament in particular.
The word rod being used in conconjunction with child
discipline.
And so a lot of people havetaken that to mean you need to
use an actual literal instrumentagainst your children when
disciplining them.
(10:17):
And there, you know, there'sthere's countless books out
there written in support of thismethod of parenting.
And I'm sure a lot of you haveprobably heard of these books.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
They actually became a little bit notorious over the
past couple months because ofthe release of that
Speaker 1 (10:37):
that documentary, shiny, happy people have written
about IBLP and the Duggies.
But
Speaker 2 (10:46):
the book to train up
Speaker 1 (10:47):
a child written by Mike and Debbie Pearl is one of
the I I feel like it's one of
Speaker 2 (10:53):
the biggest and most well known books put out there
in support of spanking childrenand they use they use the bible
a lot throughout that book to tojustify their method of
parenting.
And one of their favorites isproverbs thirteen twenty four.
And what I what I find
Speaker 1 (11:17):
interesting is they don't actually use a rod So
they're they're very much about,you know, following the bible
literally.
Like, we have to follow thebible literally.
But
Speaker 2 (11:32):
In Proverbs, Proverbs was basically written
Speaker 1 (11:35):
by King Solomon as a guide book or a rulebook.
From my understanding, it waswritten as a rulebook for one of
his teenage sons.
Like this is a set of rules.
This is a set of disciplines tofollow.
And if you follow these, youwill have success in life with
basically the gist of the bookof Proverbs.
(11:58):
And so
Speaker 2 (12:02):
where was it going with this?
I will have to say I'm sorryabout that.
And a little disclaimer as Irecord you know, future episodes
for about the next six, sevenmonths.
I am currently pregnant, sopregnancy brain has has
definitely set in So if I if Ihave a random pause halfway
(12:23):
through, it's probably becauseI've lost my train
Speaker 1 (12:26):
of thought and I just my yeah.
My brain lately.
Anyways, so proverbs, the
Speaker 2 (12:32):
book of proverbs was written as a guidebook.
From my understanding,
Speaker 1 (12:37):
it was written as a guidebook by King Salman for one
of his teenage sons.
It was written as a set ofdisciplines for his children.
And so a lot of these thingsLike, he would write, there was
one one verse in particular,where he wrote that
Speaker 2 (12:57):
If you're a glutton, you should put a knife to your
throat.
So it is better to killyourself.
And put a knife to your throatand kill yourself, then it is to
be a glutton.
So if we were to take a lot of
Speaker 1 (13:09):
the book of proverbs in the literal sense, than
anyone who falls to
Speaker 2 (13:15):
the sin of overeating at any point needs to put a
knife to their throat and killthemselves.
If we're going to follow itliterally without even trying to
have a basic understanding of
Speaker 1 (13:26):
what the book of Proverbs is actually trying to
say, then we need to killourselves.
Now, obviously, we all knowthat to put our knife to
Speaker 2 (13:35):
our throat and kill ourselves is, you know, a major
sin against God.
That's we we do not haveguardianship over our own lives.
God has control over that.
So it's a sin for us to takeour own life.
Now people, but people in spiteof this, people still take that
verse, he that's birth, hisrod, heeded his son, but he that
loveth him Chasanith him betimes.
(13:56):
They take that literally tomean that if your child sins
against you or against god, thenyou have to beat him with the
rod.
You work.
You cannot spare the rod.
You have to beat him with therod.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And so obviously, that's, you know, that's led to
a a culture of a lot ofChristians
Speaker 2 (14:22):
using corporal punishment and and believing
that they're, you know, actuallyfollowing the bible, which, you
know, kudos to them.
Like, you know, we're supposedto.
We're supposed to follow theBible.
Like, we're supposed to do whatwe think God wants us to do.
But in this case, like, I feellike it's a very very severe
misunderstanding of what KingSolomon was actually trying to
(14:42):
say, and that's not imminent.
That's not entirely everybodyelse's fault either because, you
know, when the Bible was
Speaker 1 (14:47):
translated, A lot was lost in translation.
I mean, we had the bible inthree different languages before
it was translated finally intoLatin and then from Latin.
Into English and, you know, thevarious vernacular languages.
So a lot is lost intranslation, and so, like,
sometimes in order to understandwhat the Bible is actually
(15:08):
trying to say, we have to goback to the the original
language that it was written inand see what that word was and
how it best translates into, youknow, translates into our
current vernacular language thatwe're using.
So in this case, English.
And in English, so in in theword in the original Hebrew that
(15:30):
the book of Proverbs waswritten and the word rod was
Shabbat, which translatedloosely into the rod the Shepard
used to herd count, correct, ordiagnose, like medically
diagnose his sheep.
And it's very, very importantto note here that it was never
ever used to beat or harm thesheep in any way.
(15:54):
The only time the rod was everused in a violent way was to
beat away intruders, wolves.
They talk about lions in thebible, the the shepherd beating
away lions.
I'm assuming in this case theypop hopefully be talking about,
like, mountain lions and stufflike that.
But it was never you cannotfind an instance in the bible
(16:18):
where it talks about the rod orstaff being used to beat the
sheep ever, ever.
It always talks aboutcomforting the sheep, protecting
the sheep, correcting the sheep.
It never talks about beatingthe sheep.
And so, like, with ourunderstanding of the word
(16:40):
shabbat, meaning rod that theshepherd used to hurt his sheep.
Like, without understanding, itwould be it it's kind of
laughable to think about thesheep trusting a shepherd or
trusting an object when it'sbeing used to, you know,
diagnose a skin problem, forinstance, because
Speaker 2 (17:03):
they would use the crook at
Speaker 1 (17:04):
the end of it to, like, lift the wool.
And then, you know, to see ifthere was any skin problems.
Like, it's kind of laughable tothink about the shepherd using
the same tool he used to beatthe sheep to also medically
diagnose the sheep.
And the sheep being, you know,an animal with no deductive
reasoning.
It's kind of if it was used toharm him, that sheep would run
(17:26):
away from it.
And obviously, that didn'thappen.
So the word was actually theword the same the same
translation, same word Shaba wasactually also used in Psalm
twenty three verse four, whichis like one of the most popular
(17:47):
and famous bible verses.
It is, you know, one of themost famous, but one one phrase
of that was they read.
They read a nice staff.
They comfort me.
So like, I would just pose aquestion.
How can an object that is usedto be your child, also be a
(18:10):
source of comfort to your child.
Like, if if I used if I used awooden spoon on my child
Speaker 2 (18:22):
to to spank him with it,
Speaker 1 (18:25):
he's probably not going to use it as a source of
comfort when he's sad.
It's not a comforting thing.
So how is the staff?
How can we say that I ride anice staff?
They comfort me?
And then also turn around andsay, he that spares his rod,
hateth his son.
Like, I I feel like the two thetwo understandings that we had
(18:48):
the current understanding thatparents have don't match.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And like, I feel like we've the parents really need
Speaker 1 (18:55):
to dive into what this all means.
And they actually have severalthere's several several verses
Throughout the Old Testament inparticular, Exodus twenty
one:twenty.
If a man smite his servant orhis maid with a rod, and he die
under his hand, he shall besurely punished.
So we see here in this versethat the rod was a heavy enough
(19:19):
instrument
Speaker 2 (19:21):
in the bible that it was capable of killing a person.
And I got into actually rightinto the book of exodus.
It was actually written intothe book of exodus that if you
killed someone using your rod orstaff, you were to be
Speaker 1 (19:35):
punished.
Because it was a heavy enoughinstrument.
So how can we, you know,justify using a rod to, you
know, discipline our childrenknowing that it also has the
potential to kill them.
Like, the the two do not theydon't correlate they don't match
up.
Like, it's not it's notsomething that we can honestly
(19:57):
even contemplate or think about.
Like, it shouldn't even be athought in our mind.
So we just feel like a verybasic basic understanding of the
word shawbot, which was rod.
The shepherd used it to herdhis sheep.
He used it to count his sheep.
He used it To correct theirdirection, he used it to
(20:17):
diagnose and heal his sheep.
It was never used to beat orharm the sheep.
So with that understanding ofthe word Shabbat, which means
rod in original Hebrew in thebible, Just from a basic
understanding of that, we cansee that they are not speaking
of an actual literal spanking orbeating of a small child.
(20:40):
Like, they are not speaking ofthat.
They are speaking of discipline.
He that spieth disciplinehateth his son, but he that
lubeth him chasoneth him behind.
So we corrected them because welove them.
We correct their direction, butwe do not do it through
physical violence against it.
(21:03):
We do not do it with withcorporal punishment.
That is not something that Ibelieve is is biblically based
at all.
And, like, we really need tostudy the bible in order to
understand that.
And as parents,
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I think we all have a duty.
Like, if we're going
Speaker 1 (21:21):
to use the bibles to justify our parenting decisions,
we we need to read the bible.
And understand what it'ssaying, and we need to research
this, to understand what it'sactually saying.
Otherwise, you're you're justquoting what somebody else said,
and that's not that's not okay.
That's not okay to just, youknow, quote what Joe Smith down
(21:41):
the road said, oh, Joe Smithsaid, you know, spare the rods,
spoil the child, and he saidit's biblical.
So therefore, no, that's not.
That's that's not enough.
Like, we we need to actually weneed
Speaker 2 (21:52):
to actually look into this.
We need to actually
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah.
We need to look into what we'rebeing told.
Like, we just can't take it forgranted anymore.
Another verse that I'd like tobring up is Saint Paul in
Collegium's chapter three versetwenty one said, do not provoke
your child your children toanger unless they be discouraged
.
And in the original Greek thatthis was written in, it was also
(22:22):
often understood to be brokenin spirit.
So discouraged also could meanbroken in spirit.
So provoking our children toanger and beating them down all
the time was spoken against bySaint Paul because it could lead
(22:43):
to a child being broken inspirit.
And, you know, the use of a rodis an actual literal beating
down and I I would say ninetyfive percent of the time it will
lead a child to anger.
Your child will be angry at youin one way or another.
Even if they hide it from you,they will be angry at at the,
(23:07):
you know, the injustice of of itall.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And, like, even even Jesus spoke out about you
Speaker 1 (23:16):
know, driving our children to anger and and
scandalizing them by ourtreatment of them.
In Luke seventeen too, he saidit were better for him that a
millstone were hanged about hisneck and he cast into the sea,
then he should scandalize one ofthese little ones.
And that that is a very veryheavy verse for us because he's
(23:38):
literally saying that it wouldbe better if we were dead.
Then we should hurt orscandalize or in any other way
hurt the face of one of hischildren, one of the children
that he's given us to to guardand to disciple through life.
So Like, we have to be veryvery careful with how we raise
(24:01):
our kids and we have to be veryvery careful with how we apply
the bible and how we just, youknow, rapidly cast around bible
verses, oh, the bible says, youknow, we have to spank them with
a rod.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And so, you know, we have literal is that we cut off
of trees in in
Speaker 1 (24:16):
a lot of cases, I've actually heard of parents doing
this, or in to train up a child,they go into they actually
suggest that parents use alength of plumber the plumbers
piping no greater than a quarterinch in diameter.
And they suggest that you usethat to spank your kids with.
(24:41):
And there have been severalseveral people that actually
tested it on themselves.
They bought it.
They tested it on themselves.
Before they use it on theirchildren because they're like,
there's just no way this is notgonna hurt them and they said it
was a very light spot.
And they left welts onthemselves.
So all of these these parentingbooks using this these verses
(25:08):
to justify spanking and corporalpunishment and children
Speaker 2 (25:14):
seriously leading Christians, other Christians
astray.
Like, it is a very seriousproblem.
And I will be getting I Iactually will be
Speaker 1 (25:24):
getting into those books next week and next week's
episode because Like, I grew upwith those books, and I
Speaker 2 (25:32):
grew up around people that had read those books.
And I I never thought twiceabout them.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
It was just, you know, that was just the way you
raise your kids.
That was the way we do it.
Right?
And this book was like aguidebook for that.
And like now that I've actuallyresearched the bible verses
that these people use, andactually gone into the theology
that they base this on.
Like, there's just it there'sso many so many problems.
I'm actually currently goingthrough to train up a child and
(25:57):
the no greater joy series withthe highlighter.
Like, highlighting all of thesethings, like, that are just so
very problematic where they takethe bible and they twist it to
fit a certain narrative.
And it's
Speaker 2 (26:11):
a huge
Speaker 1 (26:12):
problem.
And it's one that definitelyneeds to be talked about more.
Like, we are not we are calledto encourage our children and to
chasten them with with the rodof correction.
K?
With the rod of correction not,chasing them with a rod of
correction or called to chasingthem with the rod of correction,
(26:34):
which we as we already haveseen, translates into discipline
.
And we're not called to beatthem with the literal rod or or
apply any kind of of physicalpunishment on our children.
And so, like I said, we all ofus as parents like, the second
(26:58):
the second we we become awarethat we that God has called us
to be parents.
The second we become aware ofthis, like, It is our job to
research and to know the bible.
And to know what it is that Godis calling all of us as parents
to do.
(27:18):
He's calling us to disciple hischildren.
He's calling us to guide hischildren.
He is calling us to to helpthem, not to provoke them to
anger, not to scandalize them,not to anger them so much that
they we cause them to lose theirfaith little by little and to
break their spirit.
Like, we're we're called toherd them towards him or cow to
(27:42):
diagnose any, you know,spiritual or physical problems
that they have or called to healthem.
Recall to actually disciplinethem and discipline it means to
teach.
Recall to teach them.
We're not called.
The bible does not call us tobeat our children with a rod.
(28:03):
It is it is simply not in thereand like we we really need to
move towards that that kind ofunderstanding.
Of of grace and gentleness withour children.
Like, Jesus had so much lovefor little children.
He was so gentle with them.
And, like, one of my biggestone of my biggest things that
(28:28):
really drove me towards thismethod of parenting was the
thought, like, I would askmyself if I could see actually
see Jesus spanking my two yearold son.
Like, if I can't see Jesusspanking or raising a hand
against one of the children, hischildren, like, What am I doing
(28:51):
?
Why am I doing this?
And so, like, if if we can'tsee god doing this to in one of
his children, then we are weshould not do it either because
we are all called to be Christlike as much as is humanly
possible.
We are called to follow alonghis path.
I am the way the truth and thelife.
(29:12):
We are literally called tofollow him, and so we have to do
our ultimate, very best to dothat.
And as parents, our vocation isto follow him, as parents,
like, we we need to do our bestto follow the Bible.
And there's there's so manywords of wisdom.
There's so much truth in theBible when it comes to parenting
(29:33):
.
I mean, it's absolutely chalkfull of it once you start
looking for it.
It's absolutely unbelievablebecause it is such a huge part
of the world.
Like the family is the backboneof society.
And so it's honestly not allthat surprising if you think
about it.
You know, that the bible wouldbe just full of of guidance for
(29:58):
parents to follow because we wereally do shape the world with
how we raise our kids.
And so if we want to make theworld a better place, then that
starts with with us having anactual bounce and true
understanding of what Christ istrying to teach us.
(30:18):
Thank you so much for listeningin on this episode.
However, brief it was, thisepisode on my understanding of
biblical parenting and how I canapply it to my life and just
the little bits of research I'vedone I was going to go into a
(30:41):
little bit about the differentChristian parenting books that
I've come across in my researchinto this, but I think I'm gonna
save that for the next episodebefore this episode gets a
little too long for you guys.
So next week, I will be goinginto different books like to
train up a child, no greater joy.
Just different books
Speaker 2 (30:59):
that basically justify spanking within a a
family and that use the bible tojustify it.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And so I'll just be kind of going into a brief
breakdown
Speaker 2 (31:13):
of that.
So tune in next Thursday for anepisode on that, and I will see
you guys all next week.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of all our
little messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Patreon.
For amazing exclusive perks,including early access to
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(31:46):
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Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you next week.
Hello, and welcome to all our little messes.
A podcast focused on healingthrough intentional
conversations about parenting,relationships, religion, and
more.
I am your host Veronica Winrod,and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to all of our little messes
(00:31):
.
This is season one episodethree, and today we'll be
talking about the biblicalbackground in gentle parenting.
I like to
Speaker 2 (00:40):
start off by talking about why I feel like
Speaker 1 (00:43):
the concept of true biblical parenting needs to be
talked about in Christiancircles.
There is a couple verses in thebible that particular
Christians like to use as theirfoundation.
To justify their method ofparenting.
And just a little bit ofresearch shows that that is not
(01:06):
a very strong foundation to basetheir parenting on or base
their biblical their parentingdecisions on, their opinions on.
So,
Speaker 2 (01:18):
also, I feel like you know, saying things like
spirit, the god's boy, thechild, and saying that it's
Speaker 1 (01:25):
a biblical thing.
And, you know, saying that infront of your young children,
really sets them up to have thisthis false foundation of what
the Bible actually stands for.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that we we actually
study and read and find out whatthose verses actually meant and
(01:47):
how they're actually truthfullysupposed to be applied to our
parenting decisions and notjust, you know, fly by the seat
of our pants because you know,mister Stone and so, reverend,
so and so, father, so, and sofrom wherever said so.
Like, we really need toresearch this stuff for
ourselves so that our childrendon't have a twisted idea of of
(02:11):
scripture.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So I'd like to with that being said,
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'd like to go into the history of the phrase that a
lot of people seem to use and Alot of people seem to believe
is biblically based.
The phrase, spare the rod,spoil the child.
Now, I I grew up hearing thatphrase a lot.
It was in a lot of theparenting books that my family
(02:37):
had me read I I heard it fromteachers.
I heard it from various, youknow, priests.
And I heard it from like my ownparents and just like their
friends.
It was it was everywhere, andit was just a generally
accepted, oh, it's in
Speaker 2 (02:53):
the bible, spare the rods, boiler child, it's in the
bible.
And I I never questioned itactually until about a year and
a half, two years ago.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
When I was just scrolling through Instagram one
day, and I came across thisbiblical parenting page.
I don't actually even rememberthe name of the page anymore or
tell you guys, but I came acrossthis page that this account
that said that spare the rodspoil the child was not a
biblical phrase at all, and Ijust thought no way.
(03:27):
Like, there's just no way.
And they said that it came froma soterical poem written in the
sixteen hundreds.
And so I started researchingthe phrase, spare the rods by
the child.
And what I found justabsolutely shocked me, like, It
was it
Speaker 2 (03:47):
was it was it was it was almost scandalous.
Like, I couldn't believeChristians were taking this
phrase and applying it to tosmall children, to how they were
disciplining small childrenbecause, like, after reading
where this phrase actually camefrom, like, I was just I was
shocked.
You guys, like, it was I I Iwanted to laugh.
(04:09):
Like, I'm almost laughing rightnow.
Just thinking about thisbecause it's so it's just
absolutely ludicrous that thishas happened and has been
happening for the last four anda half centuries now.
Like, It's absolutely insane tome.
So the origin of the phrasewhere the rods spoil a child is
(04:29):
actually from a seventeenthcentury poem about a sexual
relationship between a widow, aprotestant, not a protestant,
sorry, a a
Speaker 1 (04:44):
prostitute.
And a man named Houdibros.
The name of the poem isHoudibros.
I believe I
Speaker 2 (04:52):
am pronouncing that right.
I could be wrong, but the poemwas written by a man named
Samuel Butler, and this wasduring a time when England was
kind of being taken over bypuritans and they're very
Speaker 1 (05:10):
purchanical ideas about sexual relationships and
things like that.
So he wrote this poem inmockery of of their practices.
And in that poem, It's it'sbasically about various it has a
(05:31):
couple verses in there aboutvarious sexual fetishes, but One
verse in particular is actuallywhere the phrase spare the
rock's bowler child comes from.
And it reads, what medicineelse can cure the fits of lovers
when they lose their wits.
Love is a boy by poet styled,then spare the rod and spoil the
child.
(05:51):
So in this verse, they take thelove, the sexual relationship
between these two lovers, thisman and this woman, in
particular, the the widow andHouda Ross.
And basically, they usespanking, and they espouse it as
(06:13):
a method to cure therelationship.
Should the relationship startto fail?
That the love is a boy by poetstyle.
So the love, the relationshipbetween them, is a boy, then
spare the rod.
Spoil the child.
So if you spare the rodspanking in the relationship,
then the child love will spoil.
(06:35):
So in order to save yourrelationship, you needed to
introduce spanking into it.
So they for whatever reason,parents in this time period
conveniently forgot about thewhole concept and point behind
(06:56):
the poem and behind this thisverse in particular, and they
really latched on to spare therods by the child.
So When the last This poem wasactually published in three
parts, and the last part waspublished in sixteen seventy
eight.
And it really became popular inthe sixteen sixties on.
(07:16):
The sixteen eighties is whenpeople started latching under
this quote and like spousing itas, you know, the biblical basis
for a corporal discipline inthe home.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And I say corporal discipline in the home, I'm not
talking just against, you know,just with children.
I'm talking about with, youknow, with your wife too.
Because that and that has awhole other phrase they call
that domestic discipline.
And that was also commonly used.
This phrase was actuallycommonly used to justify
domestic discipline against your
Speaker 1 (07:47):
wife.
So the actual
Speaker 2 (07:54):
viable verse that I believe, you know, if you're
gonna if you're gonna use youknow, the bible to justify
spanking in your home, then I Ifeel like people need to stop
quoting, spare the rods, spoilthe child.
I mean, just afterunderstanding it's it's basis, I
(08:16):
I feel I find it a little bitcreepy to use a poem on, you
know, written in mockery ofsexual fetishes.
As justification for spanking achild.
Like, I I find that slightlycreepy that this has been going
on for four and a half centuriesnow.
And nobody's really blinking aneye about it.
(08:39):
Like, nobody's I mean, you lookat it.
You can look it up online.
Like, it's everywhere.
There's articles and studiesand all kinds of stuff by, you
know, university professors andbible experts and everything
else, you know, that are writtenon this.
But in fundamentalist Christiancircles, In, like, traditional
religious circles, nobody talksabout this.
(09:02):
And I find that a little bitconcerning that Nobody's talking
about the fact that we're usinga sexual poem to justify
speaking her children like,that's That's a little bit sick
and twisted.
So that needs to obviously stopso that we
Speaker 1 (09:20):
can actually get back to true.
Biblical parenting.
And if I
Speaker 2 (09:26):
mean, if you're gonna if you're gonna use the bible
to justify speaking your child,then I feel proverbs thirteen
twenty four needs to be the onethat you're gonna start quoting.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
If you're gonna start quoting anything, you need to
start quoting thirteen Proverbsthirteen twenty four, which
actually says, he that spareshis rod, hateth his son, but he
that lovelth him chases intohim, be times.
And so a lot of people actuallytake the word rod in that verse
(09:57):
and actually in it's it's allthroughout Proverbs and the Old
Testament in particular.
The word rod being used in conconjunction with child
discipline.
And so a lot of people havetaken that to mean you need to
use an actual literal instrumentagainst your children when
disciplining them.
(10:17):
And there, you know, there'sthere's countless books out
there written in support of thismethod of parenting.
And I'm sure a lot of you haveprobably heard of these books.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
They actually became a little bit notorious over the
past couple months because ofthe release of that
Speaker 1 (10:37):
that documentary, shiny, happy people have written
about IBLP and the Duggies.
But
Speaker 2 (10:46):
the book to train up
Speaker 1 (10:47):
a child written by Mike and Debbie Pearl is one of
the I I feel like it's one of
Speaker 2 (10:53):
the biggest and most well known books put out there
in support of spanking childrenand they use they use the bible
a lot throughout that book to tojustify their method of
parenting.
And one of their favorites isproverbs thirteen twenty four.
And what I what I find
Speaker 1 (11:17):
interesting is they don't actually use a rod So
they're they're very much about,you know, following the bible
literally.
Like, we have to follow thebible literally.
But
Speaker 2 (11:32):
In Proverbs, Proverbs was basically written
Speaker 1 (11:35):
by King Solomon as a guide book or a rulebook.
From my understanding, it waswritten as a rulebook for one of
his teenage sons.
Like this is a set of rules.
This is a set of disciplines tofollow.
And if you follow these, youwill have success in life with
basically the gist of the bookof Proverbs.
(11:58):
And so
Speaker 2 (12:02):
where was it going with this?
I will have to say I'm sorryabout that.
And a little disclaimer as Irecord you know, future episodes
for about the next six, sevenmonths.
I am currently pregnant, sopregnancy brain has has
definitely set in So if I if Ihave a random pause halfway
(12:23):
through, it's probably becauseI've lost my train
Speaker 1 (12:26):
of thought and I just my yeah.
My brain lately.
Anyways, so proverbs, the
Speaker 2 (12:32):
book of proverbs was written as a guidebook.
From my understanding,
Speaker 1 (12:37):
it was written as a guidebook by King Salman for one
of his teenage sons.
It was written as a set ofdisciplines for his children.
And so a lot of these thingsLike, he would write, there was
one one verse in particular,where he wrote that
Speaker 2 (12:57):
If you're a glutton, you should put a knife to your
throat.
So it is better to killyourself.
And put a knife to your throatand kill yourself, then it is to
be a glutton.
So if we were to take a lot of
Speaker 1 (13:09):
the book of proverbs in the literal sense, than
anyone who falls to
Speaker 2 (13:15):
the sin of overeating at any point needs to put a
knife to their throat and killthemselves.
If we're going to follow itliterally without even trying to
have a basic understanding of
Speaker 1 (13:26):
what the book of Proverbs is actually trying to
say, then we need to killourselves.
Now, obviously, we all knowthat to put our knife to
Speaker 2 (13:35):
our throat and kill ourselves is, you know, a major
sin against God.
That's we we do not haveguardianship over our own lives.
God has control over that.
So it's a sin for us to takeour own life.
Now people, but people in spiteof this, people still take that
verse, he that's birth, hisrod, heeded his son, but he that
loveth him Chasanith him betimes.
(13:56):
They take that literally tomean that if your child sins
against you or against god, thenyou have to beat him with the
rod.
You work.
You cannot spare the rod.
You have to beat him with therod.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And so obviously, that's, you know, that's led to
a a culture of a lot ofChristians
Speaker 2 (14:22):
using corporal punishment and and believing
that they're, you know, actuallyfollowing the bible, which, you
know, kudos to them.
Like, you know, we're supposedto.
We're supposed to follow theBible.
Like, we're supposed to do whatwe think God wants us to do.
But in this case, like, I feellike it's a very very severe
misunderstanding of what KingSolomon was actually trying to
(14:42):
say, and that's not imminent.
That's not entirely everybodyelse's fault either because, you
know, when the Bible was
Speaker 1 (14:47):
translated, A lot was lost in translation.
I mean, we had the bible inthree different languages before
it was translated finally intoLatin and then from Latin.
Into English and, you know, thevarious vernacular languages.
So a lot is lost intranslation, and so, like,
sometimes in order to understandwhat the Bible is actually
(15:08):
trying to say, we have to goback to the the original
language that it was written inand see what that word was and
how it best translates into, youknow, translates into our
current vernacular language thatwe're using.
So in this case, English.
And in English, so in in theword in the original Hebrew that
(15:30):
the book of Proverbs waswritten and the word rod was
Shabbat, which translatedloosely into the rod the Shepard
used to herd count, correct, ordiagnose, like medically
diagnose his sheep.
And it's very, very importantto note here that it was never
ever used to beat or harm thesheep in any way.
(15:54):
The only time the rod was everused in a violent way was to
beat away intruders, wolves.
They talk about lions in thebible, the the shepherd beating
away lions.
I'm assuming in this case theypop hopefully be talking about,
like, mountain lions and stufflike that.
But it was never you cannotfind an instance in the bible
(16:18):
where it talks about the rod orstaff being used to beat the
sheep ever, ever.
It always talks aboutcomforting the sheep, protecting
the sheep, correcting the sheep.
It never talks about beatingthe sheep.
And so, like, with ourunderstanding of the word
(16:40):
shabbat, meaning rod that theshepherd used to hurt his sheep.
Like, without understanding, itwould be it it's kind of
laughable to think about thesheep trusting a shepherd or
trusting an object when it'sbeing used to, you know,
diagnose a skin problem, forinstance, because
Speaker 2 (17:03):
they would use the crook at
Speaker 1 (17:04):
the end of it to, like, lift the wool.
And then, you know, to see ifthere was any skin problems.
Like, it's kind of laughable tothink about the shepherd using
the same tool he used to beatthe sheep to also medically
diagnose the sheep.
And the sheep being, you know,an animal with no deductive
reasoning.
It's kind of if it was used toharm him, that sheep would run
(17:26):
away from it.
And obviously, that didn'thappen.
So the word was actually theword the same the same
translation, same word Shaba wasactually also used in Psalm
twenty three verse four, whichis like one of the most popular
(17:47):
and famous bible verses.
It is, you know, one of themost famous, but one one phrase
of that was they read.
They read a nice staff.
They comfort me.
So like, I would just pose aquestion.
How can an object that is usedto be your child, also be a
(18:10):
source of comfort to your child.
Like, if if I used if I used awooden spoon on my child
Speaker 2 (18:22):
to to spank him with it,
Speaker 1 (18:25):
he's probably not going to use it as a source of
comfort when he's sad.
It's not a comforting thing.
So how is the staff?
How can we say that I ride anice staff?
They comfort me?
And then also turn around andsay, he that spares his rod,
hateth his son.
Like, I I feel like the two thetwo understandings that we had
(18:48):
the current understanding thatparents have don't match.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And like, I feel like we've the parents really need
Speaker 1 (18:55):
to dive into what this all means.
And they actually have severalthere's several several verses
Throughout the Old Testament inparticular, Exodus twenty
one:twenty.
If a man smite his servant orhis maid with a rod, and he die
under his hand, he shall besurely punished.
So we see here in this versethat the rod was a heavy enough
(19:19):
instrument
Speaker 2 (19:21):
in the bible that it was capable of killing a person.
And I got into actually rightinto the book of exodus.
It was actually written intothe book of exodus that if you
killed someone using your rod orstaff, you were to be
Speaker 1 (19:35):
punished.
Because it was a heavy enoughinstrument.
So how can we, you know,justify using a rod to, you
know, discipline our childrenknowing that it also has the
potential to kill them.
Like, the the two do not theydon't correlate they don't match
up.
Like, it's not it's notsomething that we can honestly
(19:57):
even contemplate or think about.
Like, it shouldn't even be athought in our mind.
So we just feel like a verybasic basic understanding of the
word shawbot, which was rod.
The shepherd used it to herdhis sheep.
He used it to count his sheep.
He used it To correct theirdirection, he used it to
(20:17):
diagnose and heal his sheep.
It was never used to beat orharm the sheep.
So with that understanding ofthe word Shabbat, which means
rod in original Hebrew in thebible, Just from a basic
understanding of that, we cansee that they are not speaking
of an actual literal spanking orbeating of a small child.
(20:40):
Like, they are not speaking ofthat.
They are speaking of discipline.
He that spieth disciplinehateth his son, but he that
lubeth him chasoneth him behind.
So we corrected them because welove them.
We correct their direction, butwe do not do it through
physical violence against it.
(21:03):
We do not do it with withcorporal punishment.
That is not something that Ibelieve is is biblically based
at all.
And, like, we really need tostudy the bible in order to
understand that.
And as parents,
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I think we all have a duty.
Like, if we're going
Speaker 1 (21:21):
to use the bibles to justify our parenting decisions,
we we need to read the bible.
And understand what it'ssaying, and we need to research
this, to understand what it'sactually saying.
Otherwise, you're you're justquoting what somebody else said,
and that's not that's not okay.
That's not okay to just, youknow, quote what Joe Smith down
(21:41):
the road said, oh, Joe Smithsaid, you know, spare the rods,
spoil the child, and he saidit's biblical.
So therefore, no, that's not.
That's that's not enough.
Like, we we need to actually weneed
Speaker 2 (21:52):
to actually look into this.
We need to actually
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah.
We need to look into what we'rebeing told.
Like, we just can't take it forgranted anymore.
Another verse that I'd like tobring up is Saint Paul in
Collegium's chapter three versetwenty one said, do not provoke
your child your children toanger unless they be discouraged
.
And in the original Greek thatthis was written in, it was also
(22:22):
often understood to be brokenin spirit.
So discouraged also could meanbroken in spirit.
So provoking our children toanger and beating them down all
the time was spoken against bySaint Paul because it could lead
(22:43):
to a child being broken inspirit.
And, you know, the use of a rodis an actual literal beating
down and I I would say ninetyfive percent of the time it will
lead a child to anger.
Your child will be angry at youin one way or another.
Even if they hide it from you,they will be angry at at the,
(23:07):
you know, the injustice of of itall.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And, like, even even Jesus spoke out about you
Speaker 1 (23:16):
know, driving our children to anger and and
scandalizing them by ourtreatment of them.
In Luke seventeen too, he saidit were better for him that a
millstone were hanged about hisneck and he cast into the sea,
then he should scandalize one ofthese little ones.
And that that is a very veryheavy verse for us because he's
(23:38):
literally saying that it wouldbe better if we were dead.
Then we should hurt orscandalize or in any other way
hurt the face of one of hischildren, one of the children
that he's given us to to guardand to disciple through life.
So Like, we have to be veryvery careful with how we raise
(24:01):
our kids and we have to be veryvery careful with how we apply
the bible and how we just, youknow, rapidly cast around bible
verses, oh, the bible says, youknow, we have to spank them with
a rod.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And so, you know, we have literal is that we cut off
of trees in in
Speaker 1 (24:16):
a lot of cases, I've actually heard of parents doing
this, or in to train up a child,they go into they actually
suggest that parents use alength of plumber the plumbers
piping no greater than a quarterinch in diameter.
And they suggest that you usethat to spank your kids with.
(24:41):
And there have been severalseveral people that actually
tested it on themselves.
They bought it.
They tested it on themselves.
Before they use it on theirchildren because they're like,
there's just no way this is notgonna hurt them and they said it
was a very light spot.
And they left welts onthemselves.
So all of these these parentingbooks using this these verses
(25:08):
to justify spanking and corporalpunishment and children
Speaker 2 (25:14):
seriously leading Christians, other Christians
astray.
Like, it is a very seriousproblem.
And I will be getting I Iactually will be
Speaker 1 (25:24):
getting into those books next week and next week's
episode because Like, I grew upwith those books, and I
Speaker 2 (25:32):
grew up around people that had read those books.
And I I never thought twiceabout them.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
It was just, you know, that was just the way you
raise your kids.
That was the way we do it.
Right?
And this book was like aguidebook for that.
And like now that I've actuallyresearched the bible verses
that these people use, andactually gone into the theology
that they base this on.
Like, there's just it there'sso many so many problems.
I'm actually currently goingthrough to train up a child and
(25:57):
the no greater joy series withthe highlighter.
Like, highlighting all of thesethings, like, that are just so
very problematic where they takethe bible and they twist it to
fit a certain narrative.
And it's
Speaker 2 (26:11):
a huge
Speaker 1 (26:12):
problem.
And it's one that definitelyneeds to be talked about more.
Like, we are not we are calledto encourage our children and to
chasten them with with the rodof correction.
K?
With the rod of correction not,chasing them with a rod of
correction or called to chasingthem with the rod of correction,
(26:34):
which we as we already haveseen, translates into discipline
.
And we're not called to beatthem with the literal rod or or
apply any kind of of physicalpunishment on our children.
And so, like I said, we all ofus as parents like, the second
(26:58):
the second we we become awarethat we that God has called us
to be parents.
The second we become aware ofthis, like, It is our job to
research and to know the bible.
And to know what it is that Godis calling all of us as parents
to do.
(27:18):
He's calling us to disciple hischildren.
He's calling us to guide hischildren.
He is calling us to to helpthem, not to provoke them to
anger, not to scandalize them,not to anger them so much that
they we cause them to lose theirfaith little by little and to
break their spirit.
Like, we're we're called toherd them towards him or cow to
(27:42):
diagnose any, you know,spiritual or physical problems
that they have or called to healthem.
Recall to actually disciplinethem and discipline it means to
teach.
Recall to teach them.
We're not called.
The bible does not call us tobeat our children with a rod.
(28:03):
It is it is simply not in thereand like we we really need to
move towards that that kind ofunderstanding.
Of of grace and gentleness withour children.
Like, Jesus had so much lovefor little children.
He was so gentle with them.
And, like, one of my biggestone of my biggest things that
(28:28):
really drove me towards thismethod of parenting was the
thought, like, I would askmyself if I could see actually
see Jesus spanking my two yearold son.
Like, if I can't see Jesusspanking or raising a hand
against one of the children, hischildren, like, What am I doing
(28:51):
?
Why am I doing this?
And so, like, if if we can'tsee god doing this to in one of
his children, then we are weshould not do it either because
we are all called to be Christlike as much as is humanly
possible.
We are called to follow alonghis path.
I am the way the truth and thelife.
(29:12):
We are literally called tofollow him, and so we have to do
our ultimate, very best to dothat.
And as parents, our vocation isto follow him, as parents,
like, we we need to do our bestto follow the Bible.
And there's there's so manywords of wisdom.
There's so much truth in theBible when it comes to parenting
(29:33):
.
I mean, it's absolutely chalkfull of it once you start
looking for it.
It's absolutely unbelievablebecause it is such a huge part
of the world.
Like the family is the backboneof society.
And so it's honestly not allthat surprising if you think
about it.
You know, that the bible wouldbe just full of of guidance for
(29:58):
parents to follow because we wereally do shape the world with
how we raise our kids.
And so if we want to make theworld a better place, then that
starts with with us having anactual bounce and true
understanding of what Christ istrying to teach us.
(30:18):
Thank you so much for listeningin on this episode.
However, brief it was, thisepisode on my understanding of
biblical parenting and how I canapply it to my life and just
the little bits of research I'vedone I was going to go into a
(30:41):
little bit about the differentChristian parenting books that
I've come across in my researchinto this, but I think I'm gonna
save that for the next episodebefore this episode gets a
little too long for you guys.
So next week, I will be goinginto different books like to
train up a child, no greater joy.
Just different books
Speaker 2 (30:59):
that basically justify spanking within a a
family and that use the bible tojustify it.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And so I'll just be kind of going into a brief
breakdown
Speaker 2 (31:13):
of that.
So tune in next Thursday for anepisode on that, and I will see
you guys all next week.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of all our
little messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Patreon.
For amazing exclusive perks,including early access to
podcast episodes and bonusepisodes every month.
(31:46):
We've also recently added asupport group for all of our
paid patrons.
You could check us out onFacebook and Instagram for daily
updates and insights thatmirror podcast topics.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you next week.
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