Send me a text and let me know what you thought of this episode!
Depression, much like the weather, can be unpredictable and devastating. But unlike the weather, we often choose not to discuss it openly, especially when it comes to postpartum depression. This installment of All Our Little Messes is about shining light on this often neglected issue. Our guest, Katelyn, a respected parent educator and brave mother, opens up about her personal experiences with postpartum and clinical depression to help us understand the importance of breaking the silence.
Postpartum depression is a rising tide, surging in alarming rates among new mothers. Yet, it is poorly reported and handled, leaving many women feeling isolated. Unfortunately, the pandemic has only fueled this crisis. On this episode, we scratch beneath the surface of the societal stigmas and lack of support that contribute to this mental health concern. We also delve into the contrast between postpartum care in the United States and countries like South Korea.
We scrutinize the shortfalls of western medicine and its treatment for mental health issues, particularly the worrying trend of prescribing addictive medications to expectant mothers. The food industry's impact on mental health and the long-lasting effects of a mother's mental health on her child are also put under the microscope. However, it's not all gloom and doom. We explore practical ways to seek support for postpartum and clinical depression, emphasizing the need for home visits, counseling, proper nutrition, and adequate sleep. Ultimately, this episode is about creating awareness, offering solutions, and spreading the message that no one is alone in their struggle with depression.
If you like this show and believe in its message, please consider supporting our Patreon. For as little as $3/month, get access to behind the scenes content, early access to podcast episodes and more!
Send any questions or comments to allourlittlemesses@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you guys!
Subscribe to the newsletter here to get periodic updates on blog posts and more!
Buy Me a Coffee!
If you liked this episode, consider buying me a coffee! It'll help keep me awake during late night editing sessions. Thank you!
Follow me on Instagram and Facebook for behind the scenes content and everyday posts about parenting and marriage.
Sounds from Zapsplat.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:34):
This is episode number seven, Ibelieve, and today we're going
to be talking about the rates ofpostpartum and clinical
depression in women and why theyare such a big problem and why
the numbers seem to be on therise.
And to kind of help with thatdiscussion, today I have someone
(00:55):
who has had personal experiencewith that and has seen a lot of
that kind of thing in thecommunity Caitlin, why don't you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Yes, my name is Caitlin.
I am a mother to a six-year-old, I am a parent educator in the
community and my background isin education.
I have an associate's in earlychildhood education and I have a
(01:28):
bachelor's in elementaryeducation and my job is a parent
educator, with parents asteachers.
Yes, yeah, so it's been areally great ride to educate in
a different way than Ioriginally thought for
elementary.
So I have a ton of experiencewith mental health because I
(01:54):
struggled with it and it's beendefinitely interesting to see
how the other generations havereacted in my family alone to my
mental health struggles.
So, yeah, and I've been throughit, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, and did you have like so when you first
realized that you were havingmental health problems?
Was this something that wasrelated to birth, like a
postpartum thing, or was it justsituational, like an
environmental thing?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know, I think it's been situational, mostly
After having my son.
I definitely think I struggled,but I think it wasn't
postpartum depression.
It was more that I was in sucha horrible relationship at the
time in a marriage that I wasstuck in and I found out that I
(02:53):
was being cheated on.
I think it was probably sixmonths into our marriage and I
had a little baby, and so ourrelationship was fresh and
having a baby was fresh, and Ialso was 22 years old, so I was
fairly young and I didn't havesupport that I think a new
(03:18):
mother should have.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So, yes, it was situational and it gets better
when I'm out of that situation,but at the same time it's still
like underlying Right, right,yeah, yeah, and did you have a
hard time like talking to peopleabout it and actually, like you
know, not only allowingyourself to face that you have,
might have depression problems,but was it also something that
(03:42):
you guys, that you had to have,that you had problems with with
the people around you?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah.
So my mom has always been supergreat for me to talk to because
she struggles with depressionand anxiety.
But when I, when it's come totalking to say my grandma about
it, that was rough because she'slike, you know, just pull up
your bootstraps and like, dolike.
(04:09):
We had five kids and she hadlike foster kids.
Oh my goodness, she was doingall of the things.
No, I was never depressed.
No, I never felt down.
No, I always had it.
I had.
She was super mom.
She was super mom, yeah and I.
I don't think that was truebecause I know her history and I
know what she's gone through,and so that generational gap is.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Well, and like also, the super mom thing to me is I
feel like we can say 90% of thetime is a facade, like it's a
fake it until you make it,because you can't let people
know that you're failing and soyou have to put on the face and
you have to pretend that youhave it all together.
And that kind of just likefeeds right back into this whole
(04:54):
stigma surrounding postpartumdepression and clinical
depression and women.
And why it's so under reportedis because women have to have it
all together at all points,like we cannot fail, we're not
allowed to fail.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
I've definitely seen that,especially in parents that I
work with they.
They don't have that support,they don't have that person to
talk to and they also think it'snormal.
Oh, this is just, you know,normal what I'm going through
and postpartum depression is notnormal.
(05:28):
No, it shouldn't be just livedwith.
It should be talked about anddiscussed with different ways
that can help them.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely agree,
and I feel like because becauseit's such a huge problem and the
fact that it's not talked aboutlike you can definitely see
where there's it was so funnywhen I was actually researching
this because I became curiousone day over how big of a
(06:00):
problem depression andpostpartum depression has become
in women.
So I just started researchingit and doing, you know, just
research on numbers and stuff,and they were astronomical Like
I was shocked.
I had no idea it was this by,because when people talk about
postpartum depression, they talkabout it like it's something
(06:23):
very, very few women face.
But the reality is so like theaverage number I could find was
one in seven women experiencepostpartum depression after
birth.
That's huge, yeah, that's huge,and the fact too.
And then, like it, I also foundarticles that were saying that
(06:44):
over 50% of postpartumdepression cases aren't actually
even reported, so that there'sa very good chance that that
number is even higher.
Yeah, we're talking like one inthree or one in four women
possibly.
It's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, and it's not as talked about.
We don't know the signs, youknow, and I know I'm not even
sure what the treatments are.
I mean, obviously you can getdepression type medicine and I'm
a firm believer in counselingbut other than that, like, what
can you do, especially for thosereally hard cases of postpartum
(07:22):
depression that I've heardabout?
That's, the kind of extremethat I've heard about is like
they don't want to be with theirbaby and the lack of attachment
.
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
No, and that's yeah, that's definitely the ones that
you know, that you hear about,make news, but I don't know Like
I've.
Just the fact that they've alsogone up so quickly just in the
past 10 years is also like veryconcerning.
I feel like too like what'scausing these numbers to go up
(07:57):
so quickly and so high.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean what has happened in the last 10
years that is causing thisdepression, not just in our
generation, becausegenerationally yes, our
generation basically, likemillennials and younger, are
more depressed than ever, andwe've had fewer wars, I suppose,
(08:28):
than the boomers generation.
But at the same time, we havethe internet now, so that's one
thing I can think of, yes, yeah,so I mean internet is.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I mean just the basic thing of you know, going on
Instagram or Facebook and justscrolling and then you start
like falling into that pit ofcomparing yourself to others and
then like, oh my goodness, whyhaven't I accomplished this with
my life?
Why am I not like this person?
And then it just like, yeah, itthrows you into this.
So, yeah, I definitely agree,the internet has not been good.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
then, in that case, yeah, yeah, I mean, we have all
the knowledge at our fingertipswith the internet, and yet what
we choose to do, what a lot ofpeople choose to do, is put each
other down, and even with mominfluencers right, we have the
mom influencers who've got itall together and they have all
(09:24):
of their kids dressed matching.
Are they talking about mentalhealth?
No, I don't.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
No no, because they've got it together, they're
super mom, yeah, and they'rejust like beating back into that
hole.
It's easy and I've totally gotthis and I don't need any help,
and yeah, but you know thenumbers.
The numbers say somethingdifferent, as entirely it's.
I mean, they say that 10 to 20percent of new mothers will
(09:54):
experience some type ofdepression.
And we're not just talkingabout, you know, hormone, like
postpartum depression, here.
We're talking about actualclinical depression and that's
10 to 20 percent of new mothersare going to experience some
kind of clinical depressionduring the first two years.
(10:16):
Yeah, and that's that's.
That's insane and it reallydoes boil down to like the lack
of support and the lack ofresources that there are for a
Mothers because, like you saidearlier, like people don't
actually know what Causes andwhat the cure is for this kind
of thing.
Yeah and so, and there's notenough, I feel like there's not
(10:39):
enough resources that areactually looking into this and
so the problem is justcompounding and getting worse.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely is, and you know I
mean women are having to work inthis economy.
You need, yes, incomes just tosurvive, so that's a huge thing.
That's been happening is thatyou know everything is so much
more expensive.
You can't live on just yourhusband or your partner's Right
(11:08):
income, not to mention singlemothers, which I am and I
struggle with, and so I I knowthat situation more intimately
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely agree,
and it was so.
When I was.
When I was doing the researchfor this, I came across this
Report that was released by bluecross, blue shield, and they
found a nearly 30% increase inpostpartum depression rates in
(11:41):
Between 2014 and 2018 so it wasroughly about four, four and a
half years and they did a studyacross 1.8 million pregnancies
and they found a in those fouryears.
They found a nearly 30%increase in postpartum
depression in just those fouryears, versus the previous four
years, and I I don't know whathappened in 2014 to 2018 because
(12:05):
, like when I started thinkingabout it, I was like I don't, we
didn't have anything majorbeyond, like an election.
There was nothing.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Right, I mean definitely, when you compare it
to like 2020 new moms, oh, mygosh Seriously lacked that
support actually.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Depression.
The rates and depressionactually, now that you bring
that up, the rates anddepression during the COVID
pandemic in new moms actuallywent up From previous years.
It went up 15 to 40.7 percentcompared to previous years.
And that is that I canunderstand, because COVID was
just.
Covid was horrible.
I mean you had to be a mom, youhad to be a wife, you had to be
(12:48):
an employee and then they closeddown the school so you had to
be a school teacher.
Then you had moms giving birthin very isolated circumstances
because nobody was allowed to bein the hospital with them and
then, like I mean, giving birthin a hospital can sometimes be a
very clinical experiencealready, and then you throw
COVID restrictions on top ofthat and it's just, yeah, it can
(13:09):
be turned into a very, verytraumatizing birth experience
for anyone which, yeah, a lotlike often will Cycle into
postpartum depression orpostpartum anxiety because of
that.
So, but 15 to 40 percent, likethat's, that's insane, that's
insane, yeah, and I mean thenumbers were already up over
(13:36):
previous years and they'rethey're increasing, they're
increasing, they're increasingas we go on like the numbers are
not falling.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, it's an epidemic.
I mean there's some thingsgoing on and we're not looking
at it In the right way that weshould be.
We're not giving support likein other countries.
I love that they do this, forexample, in Korea I believe it
is North Korea they do apostpartum North Korea or South
Korea?
(14:06):
Oh, I don't know.
I'll have to look it up.
I think North Korea is verynice.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, I think you're right, Okay, kim.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Jong-un.
They have a.
Yeah, it's got to be SouthKorea.
Yeah, they have Postpartum Dula.
I think it's a Koreanpostpartum care.
(14:36):
They Korea has more than 400postpartum centers around the
country where moms and babies gofor one to two weeks after
their hospitals to stay toreceive additional care and help
, and Usually this is agovernment program.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I mean why?
Why isn't America doing this?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Why isn't society, culture, why aren't people doing
this?
See, and that's my thing islike everybody talks about you
know, why isn't the governmentdoing this?
I'm like we shouldn't get to apoint where the government is
forcing the issue because theissue has gotten so bad.
Like we shouldn't get to thatpoint.
Like society needs to bestructured around around
(15:20):
motherhood and the family, andBecause if we aren't, then we're
going to have situations likethis yeah, like they need to
value motherhood and like thework and the sacrifice that we
put in and they don't.
Yeah, yeah, so like if thegovernment has to step in,
(15:40):
that's a problem, that's a bigproblem, because they shouldn't
have to, but yeah, I don't.
That's.
That's very interesting, andyou know it's correct.
Korea is not the only countrythat has stuff like that either.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, I'm sure there's other countries.
I just happen to see a lot ofticktocks lately about this
postpartum culture that theyhave and I think it's it's super
awesome and I know here inAmerica we have postpartum
doulas that do that.
It's just not a governmentprogram and it's not, it's not
talked about.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
It's kind of like well, and then, like the
attitude around just having adoula period is kind of
Hippie-ish, almost like if youhave a doula, you're kind of
considered one of those weirdhippies, which is really
unfortunate, because if peoplereally understood what a doula
was, they would want everymother to have one At their
(16:36):
birth.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
And my mother was a doula and so she helped me
through my birth and it wasincredible.
It was, she was so great.
And you can even have doulasfor grief and loss.
Yeah, when you lose lose yourbaby, they'll help you, hold the
baby and take pictures.
Yeah, doulas are Incredible inall forms, and it's not just for
(17:04):
natural births.
No, she helped me through myepidural, which I didn't want
but I ended up having to get,because that's what happens when
you're in labor for 52 hours.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Oh, my goodness, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
You know I cringe when I thinkabout my eight and a half hours,
52 hours, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
No, a lot of it wasn't active labor, but
regardless I was like in pain,my water had broken.
So my water continued to break,you know, slowly, through that,
those hours, uh-huh, and she,she was like you know what your
uterus is tired, you areexhausted, you cannot push out
(17:46):
this baby on your own, you can'thave it in the water like you
wanted.
And, and you know, shesupported me through that, um,
through that transition, becauseit was very hard for me.
I wanted to stick to my birthplan, so I always recommend
doulas for everybody.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, do it, do it like.
Yeah, I feel like if everybodygot a doula or at least had
someone who was Even just takinga birthing class like if your
partner takes a birthing classso that they go into that
hospital room or they go intothat birth center knowing what
to expect and knowing what kindof support they're going to be
expected to provide, like thatwould be huge.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, I mean it shows a lower c-section rate, less
anxiety, decreased vacuumassisted deliveries and possibly
lower induction rates.
I mean that's what, yeah, evenbirthing class outcomes show.
So that's incredible.
I mean that alone is yeah.
(18:47):
You know, like I said,knowledge is power.
Yeah, yeah.
And to be your own advocate andto have maybe your partner or
your doula help you have anadvocate, because sometimes,
when you're in pain, you can'ttalk.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Actually, that was my experience with my first was I
I went into this with thisglorified idea of how I was
going to give birth and you know, everything was going to 100%
go according to plan.
Nothing was going to gooff-track, I was just gonna go
in there.
So first thing that happenedwas he, his head kind of shifted
(19:23):
right onto my sciatica and Icouldn't walk for two days.
So I was just like, okay,you're getting evicted.
So I was induced and that waslike my first step off of my, my
plan.
But I was like you know, that'sokay, we can get induced, I can
still do this naturally.
Um, they broke my water and itwas 45 minutes after that, after
(19:46):
I started cussing up the nurses, that my husband was just like
Okay, honey, honey, honey.
So he was like trying to likehelp me breathe through them.
But like I, you know thepitocin and the breaking the
water and everything was justlike very intense and coming on
very fast.
And he was actually the onewho's like okay, babe, I know
(20:09):
this is not what you wanted, butseriously, you can't keep doing
this.
Like I had like 15 secondbreaks between contractions.
It was horrible.
He's like you, you need to getan epidural just, and I kept
saying no, no, I don't want one,and he, kind of like, put his
foot down in a way which I ameternally grateful for, by the
way, I just want to put that outthere just very grateful that
(20:31):
he was just like babe, no.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, well, he probably knew you more than you
could know yourself in thatmoment.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I was like in this haze I couldn't even think.
Like, when you're in that zoneof trying to just make it
through the contraction andtrying to breathe through it,
like you can't, it's hard tothink straight.
So, yeah, ended up getting Iget it, getting the epidural and
, yeah, like my entire bodyrelaxed, I was actually able to.
I mean, I could still feel thecontractions because they gave
(20:59):
me what was called a walkingepidural.
Oh, okay, yeah, so I was ableto like still feel them, so that
when it was a you know, it wastime to push, I could still feel
when it was time to push.
So it kind of just took theedge off.
But it was enough to where,like, my body relaxed and like
labor actually progressed and Iwasn't Custing up the nurses
anymore.
So, yeah, that's always theplus.
(21:22):
Yeah, but no, and like I hadn'tI mean I had had experience with
, with birth before then so Ikind of I knew what to expect.
Ish, you can never really know100% how but to expect without
having done it yourself.
But like, looking, looking back, like I definitely the fact
(21:46):
that I isolated myself so muchand Just experienced so much
anxiety surrounding the baby andHis growth and was he eating
enough?
Was he pooping enough?
Was he peeing enough?
Is my, my supply?
Enough is there and like it wasit was down to.
I wonder what the fatpercentage is in my breast milk.
(22:08):
Kind of thing I was obsessing Iwas obsessing about everything.
And so looking back and I'm like, huh, I was definitely
experiencing some like Anxiety,depression, stuff.
There was something going onthere that was not a normal
reaction to birth.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, definitely, but I remember that same thing.
I would wake up it felt likeevery five minutes to check his
breathing, because I was soscared of him Stopping breathing
for some reason, even though wepracticed safe sleep for the
most part.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Well, and I think a big part of that too, as I was
in the hospital, they, thenurses, were just on me all the
time for having him in the bedall the time, and so, like I was
constantly terrified of fallingasleep with him after that
Because I was worried that, youknow, something might happen.
(23:03):
And so, yeah, I was alwayswaking up, checking to see if he
was still breathing.
Yeah, and it, yeah, it gotbetter after about Six, seven
months Is when, like, stuffstarted to finally die down.
But I wasn't like a hundredpercent until about a year old
(23:24):
he started, he was moreindependent, he started weaning
himself off and, like I, wentback to work and Got a taste the
outside world again.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, yeah definitely yeah, and I was isolated
because of the bad relationshipI was in he isolated me so I
just had you know him who Wasn'treally there, right, and I had
my limited knowledge.
I had and I think about I wishthat I had had a parent educator
(24:01):
, mm-hmm.
Or there's the other programthat's also nationwide called
nurse family partnership.
They work with first-time moms,low-income first-time moms, and
I wish I had had one of thoseresources, because then I would
have had somebody outsidetelling me how things are gonna
(24:21):
look and they weigh the baby andthey tell you if you're doing
things right and but yeah, I had.
and then the other piece was Ihad his grandma Kind of telling
me oh, you should put ricecereal in his bottle.
Ah, I know, and that's beenvery controversial and In my
work now with families They'llsay, yeah, we've been adding
(24:44):
rice cereal to the bottle and Iwas like wait, what does your
doctor say about that?
Yeah, the doctor says to do it.
Oh dear, some cases, some casesright, they're saying to do it.
So Specifically with acidreflux, I think is okay, more
where they're saying to do it,but maybe I should start eating
rice cereal.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I've had really horrible acid reflux over the
past week.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, like so I wasgetting a lack of sleep.
I Was isolated because of thesituation I was in.
I had had new baby, I hadalready had existing Depression
on top of that and had been, youknow, during pregnancy, was on
(25:26):
the highest dose of Zoloftpossible during pregnancy, oh my
goodness.
And so, you know, hormonescrashing and having this kind of
outside influence of Hisgrandma hit her generational
ties to it, I mean my mentalhealth suffered.
(25:48):
And then on top of that, whereI was living was very snowy, not
as much, you know, sun, and soI was lacking that vitamin D and
it was just.
It was a rough time.
And I look back and I wish Icould have just given myself a
hug back then and just said it'sokay, you're going to make it
through this, because for awhile I didn't think I was going
(26:11):
to.
And you know, I thankfully Ihad somebody there, a very close
friend, who reached out to meand checked on my mental health,
but it was really only her whowas able to do that with me.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah, Well, and that's also really important.
It's like, actually, you know,having people around, that one
like know you well enough tounderstand that something's
going on, something's wrong andyou know checking on you and not
being those people who are justlike, oh, you just need to pull
yourself up by the bootstrapsand you'll get through this,
(26:48):
it'll be okay.
Just fake it till you make it,which doesn't work.
It doesn't make the problem goaway.
It's like using alcohol or anyother kind of drug.
It doesn't make the problem goaway, it's still there.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, it's still there, and I once heard a really
beautiful quote that saidTrauma is what happens when we
don't have a validating witness.
Thankfully I had a validatingwitness in that, you know, my
close friend was able to say Isee you're going through
something, you're struggling,you are not having a good time
(27:23):
and therefore it didn't turninto a trauma.
But in other cases where thisis happening, where women are
really struggling withpostpartum depression worse than
I had experienced situationally, you know it's a trauma, it's a
you can have birth trauma andyou can certainly have this sort
of postpartum depression traumathat happens when there's not a
(27:47):
validating witness.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, and well, and that's that's something I
think that people need to focuson too is like understanding and
acknowledging why a woman maybe experiencing that, and so
that's like you were very luckythere because you had that.
(28:10):
You had that person who wasthere in your life to
acknowledge the reason why youwere experiencing no mental
health problems, and that's notsomething that a lot of women
have the luxury of, I think,because I mean just just
scrolling through like tick tockor Instagram Reels, youtube
shorts, whatever.
There's so many.
(28:31):
There's been this huge increaseof influencers I've noticed
lately, especially since COVID,talking about the mental load of
motherhood and like howisolated they feel and like how
full of anxiety and depressionthey are over carrying the
mental load of motherhoodbecause everything was, you know
(28:53):
, they're, they're expected tocarry everything and deal with
everything, and on top of that,you have and I, I, I this part
is like really, really hard, butlike the lack of actual focused
healthcare for women, even downto things like our reproductive
(29:16):
health or, you know, our mentalhealth especially, everything
is just treated with a bandaidand they don't have even even in
their healthcare providers.
They don't have somebody therein their life who's actually
willing to get down to the rootof the problem and figure out
why this is happening?
They don't.
(29:36):
They don't have that, they'rejust so.
The bandages are on top of itand like.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
And I think all of Western medicine.
Really it is more of asymptomatic cure and I'm a firm
believer in like.
Our mental health needs to betalked about more and not just
here's a depression med.
Try this, see if it works helps.
I'm a huge advocate forcounseling and therapy and even
(30:06):
my son is in therapy and he, hehas anxiety, which you know I
feel a little bit bad aboutbecause I have anxiety and did I
give that to him and right, youknow that's, that's part of it,
but I had another point to itand it's lost.
All that happens it does.
(30:26):
The train is gone.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Once you get pregnant , your brain just kind of just
leaves yeah, the baby is justyeah, on it's yeah.
No, I mean, like, even when itcomes to you know our health
care system, western medicine,and how they they treat
everything systematically.
I had a friend of mine who hadmajor health problems with her
(30:57):
reproductive health and everysolution to that problem was a
bandaid and it was basically await until she has to go back
into surgery to have it fixedbecause they didn't know what
caused it and they weren't evenbothering to look into what was
(31:20):
causing it.
They weren't willing to do anylabs, they weren't willing to do
any kind of testing.
It was just like oh, you havethis problem that's put you
under for three or four hours,we'll get to the surgery, will
get all that shaved out and sendyou home.
Here's some pain meds.
And because of that, like hermental health struggled, like it
(31:41):
suffered so much.
Because of that, like she, shejust went into this cycle, like
I guess, I guess this is whereI'm at now and I'm never going
to be able to have kids.
I'm never going to have, youknow, a normal cycle.
I'm never going to have I'mable to actually have a normal
relationship with my body, likeher thing was, my body in my
(32:03):
mind hate me.
Oh, and it's so sad because Ihear that a lot.
I actually hear that a lot mybody in my mind hate me and,
like I've had several friendswho had you know different
mental health and you knowphysical problems with, like
reproductive health or whatever,and it's always this attitude
of like my body hates me.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's awful place to be, I
think to experience like thiskind of you know that missing
link of this is supposed to bethe skin I'm in this is I'm
supposed to feel great.
I don't like there's thatdisconnect with that.
But yeah, all of Westernmedicine I think, does that
(32:50):
symptomatically.
And I've been to a nature pathdoctor which, of course, like
our state, medicaid doesn't payfor.
You have to pay out of pocketfor.
Oh my, I have a very sort ofexclusive experience that if
you're able to pay for it, youcan.
(33:11):
So I went one time to a naturepath doctor to kind of figure
out reproductive issues, whatwas going on, also weight issues
, and he was like so tell mewhat's going on in the home,
tell me about your mental health.
I mean, it was wild.
What are you eating?
How many vegetables per day?
Why don't every doctor do that?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
No, they just automatically prescribe
something.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, yeah, instead of Zoloft.
He was like, hey, I want you toreally focus on your you know
vegetable intake, your fruitintake and then making sure
you're getting vitamin D.
Like vitamin D was never athing I realized that I was so
deficient in.
And then he did my labs andrealize like I'm way under my
vitamin D level that I should behaving and hey, maybe life is
(34:02):
really great actually, once I'vegot started getting the proper
vitamin D.
Like maybe love is real.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Now, actually it's funny is being that up because,
like I've always had, I'vealways had iron problems and
every time I go into a doctorthey would want to do infusions.
Yeah, and not not trying tofigure out why I am so anemic,
but just put me on an iron pilland they wanted to do infusions
(34:33):
and that was it.
Or I have I had experiencedreally, really terrible
migraines with this pregnancyand instead of trying to figure
out why I have terriblemigraines, they just, you know,
prescribed me this pill, which Ifound out later was an
extremely addictive medication.
Oh my gosh, I know, and so like.
(34:54):
So they prescribed me this pill.
I was supposed to take it only,it's like once every four hours
or something like that, and soI only had to take like one a
day.
And I had a friend over and shesaw the bottle on the counter
and she read the label.
She's like, oh my gosh, Icannot believe they prescribed
this to you.
And I'm like what, why?
And she's like, well, it's veryaddicting, like why are they
(35:16):
prescribing this to pregnantwomen?
And I was just like huh.
So I brought it up to mymidwife and she was like oh,
it's really not that bad and youknow, it's just kind of they
over, kind of over blew it justto make people scared of it.
But you're fine.
And when I actually starteddoing research on it like couple
medical journals and stuffonline I did, it's a very, a
(35:39):
very addictive substance and Iwas yeah, I was very shocked.
So instead of trying to figureout why I was having you know
migraines, they just, you know,prescribed this very addictive
pain medication and sent me home.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Wow, may I ask what do you?
What medication was it?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Oh, I don't even remember it's pencil and since I
took it, it was a combinationof acetaminophen, caffeine and
something starts with a, b,maybe.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Okay, interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, it was, I can't remember the name of it, but
yeah, I was just kind of whenshe told me that, oh, it's not
that bad.
And then I did the research, Iwas like, oh my goodness, it is
that bad.
And it kind of put the wholeThey'll just throw a band-aid on
it, on everything.
Prescribed it to you while youwere pregnant, while I was
pregnant.
That's wild, I know, and that'slike that's the thing is like I
(36:41):
don't.
So I've started researchingeverything that they've been
telling me to take, and but itwas such a contrast to because
they've also told me to up up mymagnesium intake.
Yeah, instead of putting me ona laxative because it's not
effective, all of these medsthat they're having me take
because of complications duringmy pregnancy, and I have a bunch
(37:01):
of complications, and so one ofthe things I thought they were
going to definitely prescribewas a laxative and it's, as they
told me, my magnesium intake,and I was just like, oh well,
that's new.
Instead of giving me anotherpharmaceutical, you're telling
(37:21):
me that here increase yourvitamins and minerals and that's
incredible Like we are alldeficient in magnesium.
I love magnesium, and I'vesometimes wondered if the mental
health problems in the US,especially among women, is
because of how much our diet haschanged in the past couple of
(37:43):
decades.
Yeah, definitely, our food isso used to be at least it used
to be so nutrient dense, and now, when people actually go and
test it, I forgot what thepercentage was.
I'd have to look it up, butit's very low, which is why they
(38:05):
sell all of these supplementsand you have to take all of
these vitamins on top of thefood you're already eating.
Yeah, and all the additives andpreservatives and everything is
also going to affect theequilibrium in our bodies as
well, and so that's going toaffect our brains and our mental
(38:27):
health and our physical healthand everything, because there's
definitely a very fine, delicatebalance in our bodies and if we
start messing with that, withwhat we put into it, then yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Everything is so processed, so full of salt and
sugar, and I think too, whenthey advertise things, they're
not being truthful.
No, no.
So, yeah, definitely, our foodhas changed and we are less
(39:01):
self-sustainable and morerelying on the quality of
Walmart.
And if you're making enoughmoney.
Sure, you can shop at yourlocal farmer's market, yeah, but
we haven't even really gotteninto the disparity of different
(39:24):
races, different socioeconomicstatus.
I mean that alone.
If you want to look atstatistics for postpartum
depression for women of color, Imean it's higher.
I had seen in an article onmedical news today that
postpartum depression, as youhad said, affects one in, I
(39:49):
think it was six women.
Oh wow.
But for women of color it waseven more, and they can't even
really tell you how much more.
Because there's such a stigmaaround women of color and
talking about mental healthbecause of the different
cultures and the different races, I mean, yeah, and me being
(40:13):
partially a woman of color, I'msome Hispanic and some Jewish,
and so there's kind of a mix.
But beyond that, I mean forblack women, indian, native
American, even the tribal groupsthey're not talking about
(40:37):
mental health and they're notable to access the same support
that even we do.
So that's pretty wild too.
Yeah, yeah, no for sure.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, well, and then it goes beyond that too, because
a lot of these social, likeethnic groups, they don't have
the kind of financial resourcesthat we do and so they're not
able to access health care, evenif they wanted to.
Even if that stigma didn'texist, it would be very
difficult because statisticallythese people are on a, they have
(41:15):
lower income, that's just kindof a thing that happens for some
reason.
But yeah, they don't haveaccess to actual legitimate
health care.
They don't have access to goodfood.
Like you said, our options areWalmart and if we're lucky we
can make it to like a Costco orsomething.
(41:36):
But that's kind of our optionsand Walmart hasn't historically
always had the bestnutritionally balanced food.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, their quality.
You can actually see it.
I saw a picture the other dayof two different beefs.
The color from the Walmart beefwas like this weird shade of
pink that we've also seen, oh Isaw that, yeah, and the color
from the like farm raised beef.
(42:05):
That I don't think it was boughtfrom a store.
I think they had, like, boughtthis from a butcher.
The color was so rich and thetexture was so different, mm-hmm
, oh, my goodness, that is thequality that we don't even know,
and it's more than that too,because I was looking at the
picture and it was the fatratios.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yes, I was looking at the fat ratios and I was like,
oh my goodness, what are theyfeeding these cows?
Yeah, I mean, that's a wholedifferent topic.
I used to be obsessed with thewhole food industry.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, I could talk about it for days too.
I mean, I'm crunchy.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
So yeah, I call myself scrunchy.
See, I am crunchy.
I try to be as organic aspossible, but I am definitely
not above going to Mickey D's.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, and we call it cancer food and we don't go.
But I enjoy my cancer food,caitlin.
I know, I know I have my otherstuff Like my guilty pleasure is
Bath and Body Works scent, butI know that the soy disrupts my
hormones and so I will put it infor like a little bit when a
guest is coming over and thenI'll pull it right back out.
(43:20):
But that is my guilty pleasure,so I'm semi-crunchy.
I guess you could say yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
I'm semi-crunchy.
Well, because we do mostly gainmeat.
But then I buy our chickensfrom Costco and I'm pretty sure
Costco gets their chicken fromTyson.
So, yeah, definitely there yougo.
So I've offset my good gainmeat with my good
(43:50):
hormone-infused chicken breast.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Yep, yeah, pumped full of whatever they pump them
full of, and they're nice andfat.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I had to start buying the chicken breast tenderloins
because the regular chickenbreast was so covered in like
this, like when I defrost it wascovered in like this slime and
this yellow fat and like chunksof like cartilage.
It was just, oh, it was sonasty and I was just like what
have they done to our food?
What have they done to our food?
(44:24):
And like, what is it doing tomy body?
Yeah, and to my brain, yeah,like mm.
Yeah, no, and that's that.
You know, if our food change,if people started and I feel
like they actually are startingto do that, they are starting to
to take a stand, so to speak Ifpeople started actually paying
(44:51):
attention to what they wereputting into their bodies, I
feel like the mental healthcrisis would at least slow down
a little bit.
Yeah, because I mean, I don'tthink we can 100% heal what
we've done to our bodies,because it's it's and like what
we've done to our minds, likeit's on a cellular level at this
point, like it's affectingeverything.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
But definitely, yeah, and you want to talk about
mental health and so it'sinteresting.
Yeah, he just came to visit.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, I always tell people like halfway through
episodes.
Sometimes I'll have my toddlercome out and say hi, and it's
like you know what.
I'm not going to even botherediting this out.
This is a family podcast, likeyou know.
If you have a problem hearingmy toddler ask for a hug or the
dog panting, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, yeah, this is what you're getting.
Yes, yeah.
So when, when a pregnant momand I think this is what
happened to me I experienced somuch depression and anxiety
during pregnancy, it actuallychanges on a cellular level that
child's brain, and so what?
(46:03):
How I've seen it play intoaction for my son is he now has
anxiety.
As a six-year-old he was a crierand I think when you study the
cortisol levels of a child whohad a mother who had a lot of
anxiety versus a child who had amother who did not have anxiety
(46:23):
, their baseline cortisol levelswere heightened than the child
who did not have that.
Oh, they're going into theworld with higher cortisol
levels.
So this is a generational thing.
More mothers who are moreanxious and more depressed leads
into more children who are moreanxious and more depressed, and
(46:46):
on and on.
That goes Wow, yeah, it's.
It's scary to think about howmuch our bodies in pregnancy
affect our babies, but it reallydoes, and that's why they say
when you're pregnant, I mean,try to be as stress-free as
possible, as well as taking your, your prenatals, and and all of
(47:10):
that healthy, nutritious eatingyeah.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yeah, wow, that's.
I did not.
I did not know that, I hadn'teven really thought about that,
actually like how, how it coulddo that.
But that actually does makesense because there's like so
much that passes between themother and the baby in utero.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, and so because I had a heightened cortisol
levels through most of mypregnancy I was constantly
crying, I was constantly worried, I was constantly being berated
and belittled from the personwho was supposed to be loving me
and supporting me, and also wemoved a ton, so moving is a big
(47:51):
stressor.
Also, he came out as a crierand I struggled with
breastfeeding and the crying inturn like flipped my anxiety on
and so I had to wear likeearplugs just to deal with him.
And yeah, he just kind of gottriggered a little bit easier
(48:14):
than than another time, yeah,yeah, yeah, then most kids yeah,
that cortisol piece is is huge.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Wow See, that just kind of goes to show, though,
that like if we had bettersupport for moms and like if
there wasn't such a stigmasurrounding mental health,
especially in women, thiswouldn't be such a big problem.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yeah, agreed, I mean we need more support?
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, we definitely do.
So what would you suggest topeople that are, like you know,
looking to increase the supportin their lives and looking to
you know maybe help fix currentmental health problems that they
might have right now?
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Definitely.
So I would say, if you're amother to children zero to five,
look up parents' teachers.
It's a nationwide program, ahome visiting program.
That's just a little plug.
I fully believe in the outcomesof home visiting.
So look up if it's in your area.
That's number one.
(49:21):
Support is a huge thing.
So find somebody that you trustto talk to, whether that's a
friend, a therapist, a familymember.
You need to start identifyingwho you can talk to and you know
(49:43):
you need to have that trustbuilt Right.
And I would also say gettingsleep is super important.
Oh, my goodness, enough sleep,definitely, for yourself, for
your children.
You know, take the magnesium,let it slowly drift you to sleep
and go to bed.
I mean, you know, but don'tsleep too much.
(50:05):
If you're depressed, how doesthat happen?
So get up on time, have a goodsleep schedule Right, and then
you know, like we said, thatnutrition piece is huge.
So eating healthy foods will,you know, deal you with that
nutritious piece.
(50:26):
You know, are you gettingenough protein?
Are you snacking on like emptyfoods?
And then you know, get out andget out and walk and enjoy
nature.
Don't push yourself to doanything crazy like exercise,
but just to.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
you know a gentle walk.
Don't do like exercise.
Don't ever do anything crazylike exercise.
Yeah, I always tell people thatif you see me running, you
should be running too.
Be worried Be worried, wescared people.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, yeah, but just even a gentle little exercise
and just I would also say toanybody out there you're not
alone, even though it feels likeit, and you be gentle with
yourself and take time foryourself.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, yeah, and counseling.
I would also want to addcounseling, like I had I.
So I struggled.
A couple of years ago I wasreally struggling with just it
all kind of just fell all atonce on top of me during.
It was actually during COVID,coincidentally, so it was during
(51:34):
COVID.
I was working, my husband waswas gone working.
I had a almost two year old, Ihad just had a miscarriage.
There was like all of thesethings that just like fell on
top of me and I had a lot oftrauma from a couple of years
ago that I had gone through,that.
I had actually never really goneto counseling for, like, I'd
(51:56):
started a couple appointmentsand the guy turned out to be
crazy, a quack.
So I quit and I was just likeyou know, therapy is stupid, I
just need to get over myself andmove on.
Well, getting over myself andmoving on ended in a panic
attack underneath my, my workdesk and so I I, my husband was
(52:22):
just like babe, you need, youneed help, like you need to talk
to someone, you need to figureout what's going on, you need to
work through this.
So I actually I went to, Istarted going to therapy and it
was all it was telehealth, itwas all over the phone because,
you know, during the middleCOVID, there was no in person
appointments or anything likethat.
But oh my gosh, like it helpedso much and it could have just
(52:44):
been the therapist, but I only,I was only in therapy for seven
months, I think, and it was anabsolute night and day
difference and like, just how Iapproached life and how I looked
at life and I mean I was I wasso negative before and just you
(53:06):
know, waiting for the other shoeto drop constantly, and just
like I said negative, and likeshe was so helpful when it came
to just giving me tools just tostart my day on a positive note.
Just little things like what amI thankful for today?
Waking up with that justpositive note was just huge.
(53:29):
So yeah, therapy is huge whenit comes to mental health
because, unlike a lot of people,like we've mentioned, we
mentioned earlier in thispodcast like older generations
see therapy as a joke.
Yeah, and I've experienced thatin my own family like when I
would mention going to therapy,it was always like, oh it's, you
(53:51):
know you don't want to go totherapy because you know talking
about it is just going to keepit at the forefront of your mind
at all times.
And you just need to.
You need to bury it and getover it.
It's like, but it's still there.
Your problem is still there andyou haven't faced it and you
haven't fixed it.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
So definitely, yeah, no, definitely I would.
I would recommend going totherapy.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
So yeah, and finding somebody that you trust.
You know like you experiencethat with one therapist.
It just wasn't, wasn't doing itand you have to have a good
relationship with your therapistand and like what they're doing
, but like what they're bringingto the table for you.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, and it's not always going to feel good to it.
Like therapy is not going to beeasy.
It's not easy.
It's definitely hard to likeface those parts of yourself,
but it's so worth it, evenduring the brief time much I
mean I need to go back, butduring the brief time I was in,
like it is so worth it.
(54:50):
So, yeah, I would definitely, Iwould recommend that.
So, yeah, all right.
Well, thank you very much forcoming on, caitlin.
This has been an amazingconversation.
Yes, absolutely yeah, I hope tohave you on again.
This was actually really fun,yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
I was glad to talk more about mental health and I
hope our your viewers can canglean something from it.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of All Our
Little Messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Patreon for amazing
exclusive perks, including earlyaccess to podcast episodes and
bonus episodes every month.
(55:43):
We've also recently added asupport group for all of our
paid patrons.
You could check us out onFacebook and Instagram for daily
updates and insights thatmirror podcast topics.
Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast
focused on healing throughintentional conversations about
parenting, relationships,religion and more.
I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you
here listening in on my thoughtstoday.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome back to AllOur Little Messes.
(00:34):
This is episode number seven, Ibelieve, and today we're going
to be talking about the rates ofpostpartum and clinical
depression in women and why theyare such a big problem and why
the numbers seem to be on therise.
And to kind of help with thatdiscussion, today I have someone
(00:55):
who has had personal experiencewith that and has seen a lot of
that kind of thing in thecommunity Caitlin, why don't you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Yes, my name is Caitlin.
I am a mother to a six-year-old, I am a parent educator in the
community and my background isin education.
I have an associate's in earlychildhood education and I have a
(01:28):
bachelor's in elementaryeducation and my job is a parent
educator, with parents asteachers.
Yes, yeah, so it's been areally great ride to educate in
a different way than Ioriginally thought for
elementary.
So I have a ton of experiencewith mental health because I
(01:54):
struggled with it and it's beendefinitely interesting to see
how the other generations havereacted in my family alone to my
mental health struggles.
So, yeah, and I've been throughit, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, and did you have like so when you first
realized that you were havingmental health problems?
Was this something that wasrelated to birth, like a
postpartum thing, or was it justsituational, like an
environmental thing?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know, I think it's been situational, mostly
After having my son.
I definitely think I struggled,but I think it wasn't
postpartum depression.
It was more that I was in sucha horrible relationship at the
time in a marriage that I wasstuck in and I found out that I
(02:53):
was being cheated on.
I think it was probably sixmonths into our marriage and I
had a little baby, and so ourrelationship was fresh and
having a baby was fresh, and Ialso was 22 years old, so I was
fairly young and I didn't havesupport that I think a new
(03:18):
mother should have.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So, yes, it was situational and it gets better
when I'm out of that situation,but at the same time it's still
like underlying Right, right,yeah, yeah, and did you have a
hard time like talking to peopleabout it and actually, like you
know, not only allowingyourself to face that you have,
might have depression problems,but was it also something that
(03:42):
you guys, that you had to have,that you had problems with with
the people around you?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah.
So my mom has always been supergreat for me to talk to because
she struggles with depressionand anxiety.
But when I, when it's come totalking to say my grandma about
it, that was rough because she'slike, you know, just pull up
your bootstraps and like, dolike.
(04:09):
We had five kids and she hadlike foster kids.
Oh my goodness, she was doingall of the things.
No, I was never depressed.
No, I never felt down.
No, I always had it.
I had.
She was super mom.
She was super mom, yeah and I.
I don't think that was truebecause I know her history and I
know what she's gone through,and so that generational gap is.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Well, and like also, the super mom thing to me is I
feel like we can say 90% of thetime is a facade, like it's a
fake it until you make it,because you can't let people
know that you're failing and soyou have to put on the face and
you have to pretend that youhave it all together.
And that kind of just likefeeds right back into this whole
(04:54):
stigma surrounding postpartumdepression and clinical
depression and women.
And why it's so under reportedis because women have to have it
all together at all points,like we cannot fail, we're not
allowed to fail.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
I've definitely seen that,especially in parents that I
work with they.
They don't have that support,they don't have that person to
talk to and they also think it'snormal.
Oh, this is just, you know,normal what I'm going through
and postpartum depression is notnormal.
(05:28):
No, it shouldn't be just livedwith.
It should be talked about anddiscussed with different ways
that can help them.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely agree,
and I feel like because becauseit's such a huge problem and the
fact that it's not talked aboutlike you can definitely see
where there's it was so funnywhen I was actually researching
this because I became curiousone day over how big of a
(06:00):
problem depression andpostpartum depression has become
in women.
So I just started researchingit and doing, you know, just
research on numbers and stuff,and they were astronomical Like
I was shocked.
I had no idea it was this by,because when people talk about
postpartum depression, they talkabout it like it's something
(06:23):
very, very few women face.
But the reality is so like theaverage number I could find was
one in seven women experiencepostpartum depression after
birth.
That's huge, yeah, that's huge,and the fact too.
And then, like it, I also foundarticles that were saying that
(06:44):
over 50% of postpartumdepression cases aren't actually
even reported, so that there'sa very good chance that that
number is even higher.
Yeah, we're talking like one inthree or one in four women
possibly.
It's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, and it's not as talked about.
We don't know the signs, youknow, and I know I'm not even
sure what the treatments are.
I mean, obviously you can getdepression type medicine and I'm
a firm believer in counselingbut other than that, like, what
can you do, especially for thosereally hard cases of postpartum
(07:22):
depression that I've heardabout?
That's, the kind of extremethat I've heard about is like
they don't want to be with theirbaby and the lack of attachment
.
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
No, and that's yeah, that's definitely the ones that
you know, that you hear about,make news, but I don't know Like
I've.
Just the fact that they've alsogone up so quickly just in the
past 10 years is also like veryconcerning.
I feel like too like what'scausing these numbers to go up
(07:57):
so quickly and so high.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean what has happened in the last 10
years that is causing thisdepression, not just in our
generation, becausegenerationally yes, our
generation basically, likemillennials and younger, are
more depressed than ever, andwe've had fewer wars, I suppose,
(08:28):
than the boomers generation.
But at the same time, we havethe internet now, so that's one
thing I can think of, yes, yeah,so I mean internet is.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I mean just the basic thing of you know, going on
Instagram or Facebook and justscrolling and then you start
like falling into that pit ofcomparing yourself to others and
then like, oh my goodness, whyhaven't I accomplished this with
my life?
Why am I not like this person?
And then it just like, yeah, itthrows you into this.
So, yeah, I definitely agree,the internet has not been good.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
then, in that case, yeah, yeah, I mean, we have all
the knowledge at our fingertipswith the internet, and yet what
we choose to do, what a lot ofpeople choose to do, is put each
other down, and even with mominfluencers right, we have the
mom influencers who've got itall together and they have all
(09:24):
of their kids dressed matching.
Are they talking about mentalhealth?
No, I don't.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
No no, because they've got it together, they're
super mom, yeah, and they'rejust like beating back into that
hole.
It's easy and I've totally gotthis and I don't need any help,
and yeah, but you know thenumbers.
The numbers say somethingdifferent, as entirely it's.
I mean, they say that 10 to 20percent of new mothers will
(09:54):
experience some type ofdepression.
And we're not just talkingabout, you know, hormone, like
postpartum depression, here.
We're talking about actualclinical depression and that's
10 to 20 percent of new mothersare going to experience some
kind of clinical depressionduring the first two years.
(10:16):
Yeah, and that's that's.
That's insane and it reallydoes boil down to like the lack
of support and the lack ofresources that there are for a
Mothers because, like you saidearlier, like people don't
actually know what Causes andwhat the cure is for this kind
of thing.
Yeah and so, and there's notenough, I feel like there's not
(10:39):
enough resources that areactually looking into this and
so the problem is justcompounding and getting worse.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely is, and you know I
mean women are having to work inthis economy.
You need, yes, incomes just tosurvive, so that's a huge thing.
That's been happening is thatyou know everything is so much
more expensive.
You can't live on just yourhusband or your partner's Right
(11:08):
income, not to mention singlemothers, which I am and I
struggle with, and so I I knowthat situation more intimately
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely agree,
and it was so.
When I was.
When I was doing the researchfor this, I came across this
Report that was released by bluecross, blue shield, and they
found a nearly 30% increase inpostpartum depression rates in
(11:41):
Between 2014 and 2018 so it wasroughly about four, four and a
half years and they did a studyacross 1.8 million pregnancies
and they found a in those fouryears.
They found a nearly 30%increase in postpartum
depression in just those fouryears, versus the previous four
years, and I I don't know whathappened in 2014 to 2018 because
(12:05):
, like when I started thinkingabout it, I was like I don't, we
didn't have anything majorbeyond, like an election.
There was nothing.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Right, I mean definitely, when you compare it
to like 2020 new moms, oh, mygosh Seriously lacked that
support actually.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Depression.
The rates and depressionactually, now that you bring
that up, the rates anddepression during the COVID
pandemic in new moms actuallywent up From previous years.
It went up 15 to 40.7 percentcompared to previous years.
And that is that I canunderstand, because COVID was
just.
Covid was horrible.
I mean you had to be a mom, youhad to be a wife, you had to be
(12:48):
an employee and then they closeddown the school so you had to
be a school teacher.
Then you had moms giving birthin very isolated circumstances
because nobody was allowed to bein the hospital with them and
then, like I mean, giving birthin a hospital can sometimes be a
very clinical experiencealready, and then you throw
COVID restrictions on top ofthat and it's just, yeah, it can
(13:09):
be turned into a very, verytraumatizing birth experience
for anyone which, yeah, a lotlike often will Cycle into
postpartum depression orpostpartum anxiety because of
that.
So, but 15 to 40 percent, likethat's, that's insane, that's
insane, yeah, and I mean thenumbers were already up over
(13:36):
previous years and they'rethey're increasing, they're
increasing, they're increasingas we go on like the numbers are
not falling.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, it's an epidemic.
I mean there's some thingsgoing on and we're not looking
at it In the right way that weshould be.
We're not giving support likein other countries.
I love that they do this, forexample, in Korea I believe it
is North Korea they do apostpartum North Korea or South
Korea?
(14:06):
Oh, I don't know.
I'll have to look it up.
I think North Korea is verynice.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, I think you're right, Okay, kim.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Jong-un.
They have a.
Yeah, it's got to be SouthKorea.
Yeah, they have Postpartum Dula.
I think it's a Koreanpostpartum care.
(14:36):
They Korea has more than 400postpartum centers around the
country where moms and babies gofor one to two weeks after
their hospitals to stay toreceive additional care and help
, and Usually this is agovernment program.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I mean why?
Why isn't America doing this?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Why isn't society, culture, why aren't people doing
this?
See, and that's my thing islike everybody talks about you
know, why isn't the governmentdoing this?
I'm like we shouldn't get to apoint where the government is
forcing the issue because theissue has gotten so bad.
Like we shouldn't get to thatpoint.
Like society needs to bestructured around around
(15:20):
motherhood and the family, andBecause if we aren't, then we're
going to have situations likethis yeah, like they need to
value motherhood and like thework and the sacrifice that we
put in and they don't.
Yeah, yeah, so like if thegovernment has to step in,
(15:40):
that's a problem, that's a bigproblem, because they shouldn't
have to, but yeah, I don't.
That's.
That's very interesting, andyou know it's correct.
Korea is not the only countrythat has stuff like that either.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, I'm sure there's other countries.
I just happen to see a lot ofticktocks lately about this
postpartum culture that theyhave and I think it's it's super
awesome and I know here inAmerica we have postpartum
doulas that do that.
It's just not a governmentprogram and it's not, it's not
talked about.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
It's kind of like well, and then, like the
attitude around just having adoula period is kind of
Hippie-ish, almost like if youhave a doula, you're kind of
considered one of those weirdhippies, which is really
unfortunate, because if peoplereally understood what a doula
was, they would want everymother to have one At their
(16:36):
birth.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
And my mother was a doula and so she helped me
through my birth and it wasincredible.
It was, she was so great.
And you can even have doulasfor grief and loss.
Yeah, when you lose lose yourbaby, they'll help you, hold the
baby and take pictures.
Yeah, doulas are Incredible inall forms, and it's not just for
(17:04):
natural births.
No, she helped me through myepidural, which I didn't want
but I ended up having to get,because that's what happens when
you're in labor for 52 hours.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Oh, my goodness, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
You know I cringe when I thinkabout my eight and a half hours,
52 hours, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
No, a lot of it wasn't active labor, but
regardless I was like in pain,my water had broken.
So my water continued to break,you know, slowly, through that,
those hours, uh-huh, and she,she was like you know what your
uterus is tired, you areexhausted, you cannot push out
(17:46):
this baby on your own, you can'thave it in the water like you
wanted.
And, and you know, shesupported me through that, um,
through that transition, becauseit was very hard for me.
I wanted to stick to my birthplan, so I always recommend
doulas for everybody.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, do it, do it like.
Yeah, I feel like if everybodygot a doula or at least had
someone who was Even just takinga birthing class like if your
partner takes a birthing classso that they go into that
hospital room or they go intothat birth center knowing what
to expect and knowing what kindof support they're going to be
expected to provide, like thatwould be huge.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, I mean it shows a lower c-section rate, less
anxiety, decreased vacuumassisted deliveries and possibly
lower induction rates.
I mean that's what, yeah, evenbirthing class outcomes show.
So that's incredible.
I mean that alone is yeah.
(18:47):
You know, like I said,knowledge is power.
Yeah, yeah.
And to be your own advocate andto have maybe your partner or
your doula help you have anadvocate, because sometimes,
when you're in pain, you can'ttalk.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Actually, that was my experience with my first was I
I went into this with thisglorified idea of how I was
going to give birth and you know, everything was going to 100%
go according to plan.
Nothing was going to gooff-track, I was just gonna go
in there.
So first thing that happenedwas he, his head kind of shifted
(19:23):
right onto my sciatica and Icouldn't walk for two days.
So I was just like, okay,you're getting evicted.
So I was induced and that waslike my first step off of my, my
plan.
But I was like you know, that'sokay, we can get induced, I can
still do this naturally.
Um, they broke my water and itwas 45 minutes after that, after
(19:46):
I started cussing up the nurses, that my husband was just like
Okay, honey, honey, honey.
So he was like trying to likehelp me breathe through them.
But like I, you know thepitocin and the breaking the
water and everything was justlike very intense and coming on
very fast.
And he was actually the onewho's like okay, babe, I know
(20:09):
this is not what you wanted, butseriously, you can't keep doing
this.
Like I had like 15 secondbreaks between contractions.
It was horrible.
He's like you, you need to getan epidural just, and I kept
saying no, no, I don't want one,and he, kind of like, put his
foot down in a way which I ameternally grateful for, by the
way, I just want to put that outthere just very grateful that
(20:31):
he was just like babe, no.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, well, he probably knew you more than you
could know yourself in thatmoment.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I was like in this haze I couldn't even think.
Like, when you're in that zoneof trying to just make it
through the contraction andtrying to breathe through it,
like you can't, it's hard tothink straight.
So, yeah, ended up getting Iget it, getting the epidural and
, yeah, like my entire bodyrelaxed, I was actually able to.
I mean, I could still feel thecontractions because they gave
(20:59):
me what was called a walkingepidural.
Oh, okay, yeah, so I was ableto like still feel them, so that
when it was a you know, it wastime to push, I could still feel
when it was time to push.
So it kind of just took theedge off.
But it was enough to where,like, my body relaxed and like
labor actually progressed and Iwasn't Custing up the nurses
anymore.
So, yeah, that's always theplus.
(21:22):
Yeah, but no, and like I hadn'tI mean I had had experience with
, with birth before then so Ikind of I knew what to expect.
Ish, you can never really know100% how but to expect without
having done it yourself.
But like, looking, looking back, like I definitely the fact
(21:46):
that I isolated myself so muchand Just experienced so much
anxiety surrounding the baby andHis growth and was he eating
enough?
Was he pooping enough?
Was he peeing enough?
Is my, my supply?
Enough is there and like it wasit was down to.
I wonder what the fatpercentage is in my breast milk.
(22:08):
Kind of thing I was obsessing Iwas obsessing about everything.
And so looking back and I'm like, huh, I was definitely
experiencing some like Anxiety,depression, stuff.
There was something going onthere that was not a normal
reaction to birth.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, definitely, but I remember that same thing.
I would wake up it felt likeevery five minutes to check his
breathing, because I was soscared of him Stopping breathing
for some reason, even though wepracticed safe sleep for the
most part.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Well, and I think a big part of that too, as I was
in the hospital, they, thenurses, were just on me all the
time for having him in the bedall the time, and so, like I was
constantly terrified of fallingasleep with him after that
Because I was worried that, youknow, something might happen.
(23:03):
And so, yeah, I was alwayswaking up, checking to see if he
was still breathing.
Yeah, and it, yeah, it gotbetter after about Six, seven
months Is when, like, stuffstarted to finally die down.
But I wasn't like a hundredpercent until about a year old
(23:24):
he started, he was moreindependent, he started weaning
himself off and, like I, wentback to work and Got a taste the
outside world again.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, yeah definitely yeah, and I was isolated
because of the bad relationshipI was in he isolated me so I
just had you know him who Wasn'treally there, right, and I had
my limited knowledge.
I had and I think about I wishthat I had had a parent educator
(24:01):
, mm-hmm.
Or there's the other programthat's also nationwide called
nurse family partnership.
They work with first-time moms,low-income first-time moms, and
I wish I had had one of thoseresources, because then I would
have had somebody outsidetelling me how things are gonna
(24:21):
look and they weigh the baby andthey tell you if you're doing
things right and but yeah, I had.
and then the other piece was Ihad his grandma Kind of telling
me oh, you should put ricecereal in his bottle.
Ah, I know, and that's beenvery controversial and In my
work now with families They'llsay, yeah, we've been adding
(24:44):
rice cereal to the bottle and Iwas like wait, what does your
doctor say about that?
Yeah, the doctor says to do it.
Oh dear, some cases, some casesright, they're saying to do it.
So Specifically with acidreflux, I think is okay, more
where they're saying to do it,but maybe I should start eating
rice cereal.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I've had really horrible acid reflux over the
past week.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, like so I wasgetting a lack of sleep.
I Was isolated because of thesituation I was in.
I had had new baby, I hadalready had existing Depression
on top of that and had been, youknow, during pregnancy, was on
(25:26):
the highest dose of Zoloftpossible during pregnancy, oh my
goodness.
And so, you know, hormonescrashing and having this kind of
outside influence of Hisgrandma hit her generational
ties to it, I mean my mentalhealth suffered.
(25:48):
And then on top of that, whereI was living was very snowy, not
as much, you know, sun, and soI was lacking that vitamin D and
it was just.
It was a rough time.
And I look back and I wish Icould have just given myself a
hug back then and just said it'sokay, you're going to make it
through this, because for awhile I didn't think I was going
(26:11):
to.
And you know, I thankfully Ihad somebody there, a very close
friend, who reached out to meand checked on my mental health,
but it was really only her whowas able to do that with me.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah, Well, and that's also really important.
It's like, actually, you know,having people around, that one
like know you well enough tounderstand that something's
going on, something's wrong andyou know checking on you and not
being those people who are justlike, oh, you just need to pull
yourself up by the bootstrapsand you'll get through this,
(26:48):
it'll be okay.
Just fake it till you make it,which doesn't work.
It doesn't make the problem goaway.
It's like using alcohol or anyother kind of drug.
It doesn't make the problem goaway, it's still there.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, it's still there, and I once heard a really
beautiful quote that saidTrauma is what happens when we
don't have a validating witness.
Thankfully I had a validatingwitness in that, you know, my
close friend was able to say Isee you're going through
something, you're struggling,you are not having a good time
(27:23):
and therefore it didn't turninto a trauma.
But in other cases where thisis happening, where women are
really struggling withpostpartum depression worse than
I had experienced situationally, you know it's a trauma, it's a
you can have birth trauma andyou can certainly have this sort
of postpartum depression traumathat happens when there's not a
(27:47):
validating witness.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, and well, and that's that's something I
think that people need to focuson too is like understanding and
acknowledging why a woman maybe experiencing that, and so
that's like you were very luckythere because you had that.
(28:10):
You had that person who wasthere in your life to
acknowledge the reason why youwere experiencing no mental
health problems, and that's notsomething that a lot of women
have the luxury of, I think,because I mean just just
scrolling through like tick tockor Instagram Reels, youtube
shorts, whatever.
There's so many.
(28:31):
There's been this huge increaseof influencers I've noticed
lately, especially since COVID,talking about the mental load of
motherhood and like howisolated they feel and like how
full of anxiety and depressionthey are over carrying the
mental load of motherhoodbecause everything was, you know
(28:53):
, they're, they're expected tocarry everything and deal with
everything, and on top of that,you have and I, I, I this part
is like really, really hard, butlike the lack of actual focused
healthcare for women, even downto things like our reproductive
(29:16):
health or, you know, our mentalhealth especially, everything
is just treated with a bandaidand they don't have even even in
their healthcare providers.
They don't have somebody therein their life who's actually
willing to get down to the rootof the problem and figure out
why this is happening?
They don't.
(29:36):
They don't have that, they'rejust so.
The bandages are on top of itand like.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
And I think all of Western medicine.
Really it is more of asymptomatic cure and I'm a firm
believer in like.
Our mental health needs to betalked about more and not just
here's a depression med.
Try this, see if it works helps.
I'm a huge advocate forcounseling and therapy and even
(30:06):
my son is in therapy and he, hehas anxiety, which you know I
feel a little bit bad aboutbecause I have anxiety and did I
give that to him and right, youknow that's, that's part of it,
but I had another point to itand it's lost.
All that happens it does.
(30:26):
The train is gone.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Once you get pregnant , your brain just kind of just
leaves yeah, the baby is justyeah, on it's yeah.
No, I mean, like, even when itcomes to you know our health
care system, western medicine,and how they they treat
everything systematically.
I had a friend of mine who hadmajor health problems with her
(30:57):
reproductive health and everysolution to that problem was a
bandaid and it was basically await until she has to go back
into surgery to have it fixedbecause they didn't know what
caused it and they weren't evenbothering to look into what was
(31:20):
causing it.
They weren't willing to do anylabs, they weren't willing to do
any kind of testing.
It was just like oh, you havethis problem that's put you
under for three or four hours,we'll get to the surgery, will
get all that shaved out and sendyou home.
Here's some pain meds.
And because of that, like hermental health struggled, like it
(31:41):
suffered so much.
Because of that, like she, shejust went into this cycle, like
I guess, I guess this is whereI'm at now and I'm never going
to be able to have kids.
I'm never going to have, youknow, a normal cycle.
I'm never going to have I'mable to actually have a normal
relationship with my body, likeher thing was, my body in my
(32:03):
mind hate me.
Oh, and it's so sad because Ihear that a lot.
I actually hear that a lot mybody in my mind hate me and,
like I've had several friendswho had you know different
mental health and you knowphysical problems with, like
reproductive health or whatever,and it's always this attitude
of like my body hates me.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's awful place to be, I
think to experience like thiskind of you know that missing
link of this is supposed to bethe skin I'm in this is I'm
supposed to feel great.
I don't like there's thatdisconnect with that.
But yeah, all of Westernmedicine I think, does that
(32:50):
symptomatically.
And I've been to a nature pathdoctor which, of course, like
our state, medicaid doesn't payfor.
You have to pay out of pocketfor.
Oh my, I have a very sort ofexclusive experience that if
you're able to pay for it, youcan.
(33:11):
So I went one time to a naturepath doctor to kind of figure
out reproductive issues, whatwas going on, also weight issues
, and he was like so tell mewhat's going on in the home,
tell me about your mental health.
I mean, it was wild.
What are you eating?
How many vegetables per day?
Why don't every doctor do that?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
No, they just automatically prescribe
something.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, yeah, instead of Zoloft.
He was like, hey, I want you toreally focus on your you know
vegetable intake, your fruitintake and then making sure
you're getting vitamin D.
Like vitamin D was never athing I realized that I was so
deficient in.
And then he did my labs andrealize like I'm way under my
vitamin D level that I should behaving and hey, maybe life is
(34:02):
really great actually, once I'vegot started getting the proper
vitamin D.
Like maybe love is real.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Now, actually it's funny is being that up because,
like I've always had, I'vealways had iron problems and
every time I go into a doctorthey would want to do infusions.
Yeah, and not not trying tofigure out why I am so anemic,
but just put me on an iron pilland they wanted to do infusions
(34:33):
and that was it.
Or I have I had experiencedreally, really terrible
migraines with this pregnancyand instead of trying to figure
out why I have terriblemigraines, they just, you know,
prescribed me this pill, which Ifound out later was an
extremely addictive medication.
Oh my gosh, I know, and so like.
(34:54):
So they prescribed me this pill.
I was supposed to take it only,it's like once every four hours
or something like that, and soI only had to take like one a
day.
And I had a friend over and shesaw the bottle on the counter
and she read the label.
She's like, oh my gosh, Icannot believe they prescribed
this to you.
And I'm like what, why?
And she's like, well, it's veryaddicting, like why are they
(35:16):
prescribing this to pregnantwomen?
And I was just like huh.
So I brought it up to mymidwife and she was like oh,
it's really not that bad and youknow, it's just kind of they
over, kind of over blew it justto make people scared of it.
But you're fine.
And when I actually starteddoing research on it like couple
medical journals and stuffonline I did, it's a very, a
(35:39):
very addictive substance and Iwas yeah, I was very shocked.
So instead of trying to figureout why I was having you know
migraines, they just, you know,prescribed this very addictive
pain medication and sent me home.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Wow, may I ask what do you?
What medication was it?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Oh, I don't even remember it's pencil and since I
took it, it was a combinationof acetaminophen, caffeine and
something starts with a, b,maybe.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Okay, interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, it was, I can't remember the name of it, but
yeah, I was just kind of whenshe told me that, oh, it's not
that bad.
And then I did the research, Iwas like, oh my goodness, it is
that bad.
And it kind of put the wholeThey'll just throw a band-aid on
it, on everything.
Prescribed it to you while youwere pregnant, while I was
pregnant.
That's wild, I know, and that'slike that's the thing is like I
(36:41):
don't.
So I've started researchingeverything that they've been
telling me to take, and but itwas such a contrast to because
they've also told me to up up mymagnesium intake.
Yeah, instead of putting me ona laxative because it's not
effective, all of these medsthat they're having me take
because of complications duringmy pregnancy, and I have a bunch
(37:01):
of complications, and so one ofthe things I thought they were
going to definitely prescribewas a laxative and it's, as they
told me, my magnesium intake,and I was just like, oh well,
that's new.
Instead of giving me anotherpharmaceutical, you're telling
(37:21):
me that here increase yourvitamins and minerals and that's
incredible Like we are alldeficient in magnesium.
I love magnesium, and I'vesometimes wondered if the mental
health problems in the US,especially among women, is
because of how much our diet haschanged in the past couple of
(37:43):
decades.
Yeah, definitely, our food isso used to be at least it used
to be so nutrient dense, and now, when people actually go and
test it, I forgot what thepercentage was.
I'd have to look it up, butit's very low, which is why they
(38:05):
sell all of these supplementsand you have to take all of
these vitamins on top of thefood you're already eating.
Yeah, and all the additives andpreservatives and everything is
also going to affect theequilibrium in our bodies as
well, and so that's going toaffect our brains and our mental
(38:27):
health and our physical healthand everything, because there's
definitely a very fine, delicatebalance in our bodies and if we
start messing with that, withwhat we put into it, then yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Everything is so processed, so full of salt and
sugar, and I think too, whenthey advertise things, they're
not being truthful.
No, no.
So, yeah, definitely, our foodhas changed and we are less
(39:01):
self-sustainable and morerelying on the quality of
Walmart.
And if you're making enoughmoney.
Sure, you can shop at yourlocal farmer's market, yeah, but
we haven't even really gotteninto the disparity of different
(39:24):
races, different socioeconomicstatus.
I mean that alone.
If you want to look atstatistics for postpartum
depression for women of color, Imean it's higher.
I had seen in an article onmedical news today that
postpartum depression, as youhad said, affects one in, I
(39:49):
think it was six women.
Oh wow.
But for women of color it waseven more, and they can't even
really tell you how much more.
Because there's such a stigmaaround women of color and
talking about mental healthbecause of the different
cultures and the different races, I mean, yeah, and me being
(40:13):
partially a woman of color, I'msome Hispanic and some Jewish,
and so there's kind of a mix.
But beyond that, I mean forblack women, indian, native
American, even the tribal groupsthey're not talking about
(40:37):
mental health and they're notable to access the same support
that even we do.
So that's pretty wild too.
Yeah, yeah, no for sure.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, well, and then it goes beyond that too, because
a lot of these social, likeethnic groups, they don't have
the kind of financial resourcesthat we do and so they're not
able to access health care, evenif they wanted to.
Even if that stigma didn'texist, it would be very
difficult because statisticallythese people are on a, they have
(41:15):
lower income, that's just kindof a thing that happens for some
reason.
But yeah, they don't haveaccess to actual legitimate
health care.
They don't have access to goodfood.
Like you said, our options areWalmart and if we're lucky we
can make it to like a Costco orsomething.
(41:36):
But that's kind of our optionsand Walmart hasn't historically
always had the bestnutritionally balanced food.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, their quality.
You can actually see it.
I saw a picture the other dayof two different beefs.
The color from the Walmart beefwas like this weird shade of
pink that we've also seen, oh Isaw that, yeah, and the color
from the like farm raised beef.
(42:05):
That I don't think it was boughtfrom a store.
I think they had, like, boughtthis from a butcher.
The color was so rich and thetexture was so different, mm-hmm
, oh, my goodness, that is thequality that we don't even know,
and it's more than that too,because I was looking at the
picture and it was the fatratios.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yes, I was looking at the fat ratios and I was like,
oh my goodness, what are theyfeeding these cows?
Yeah, I mean, that's a wholedifferent topic.
I used to be obsessed with thewhole food industry.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, I could talk about it for days too.
I mean, I'm crunchy.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
So yeah, I call myself scrunchy.
See, I am crunchy.
I try to be as organic aspossible, but I am definitely
not above going to Mickey D's.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, and we call it cancer food and we don't go.
But I enjoy my cancer food,caitlin.
I know, I know I have my otherstuff Like my guilty pleasure is
Bath and Body Works scent, butI know that the soy disrupts my
hormones and so I will put it infor like a little bit when a
guest is coming over and thenI'll pull it right back out.
(43:20):
But that is my guilty pleasure,so I'm semi-crunchy.
I guess you could say yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
I'm semi-crunchy.
Well, because we do mostly gainmeat.
But then I buy our chickensfrom Costco and I'm pretty sure
Costco gets their chicken fromTyson.
So, yeah, definitely there yougo.
So I've offset my good gainmeat with my good
(43:50):
hormone-infused chicken breast.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Yep, yeah, pumped full of whatever they pump them
full of, and they're nice andfat.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I had to start buying the chicken breast tenderloins
because the regular chickenbreast was so covered in like
this, like when I defrost it wascovered in like this slime and
this yellow fat and like chunksof like cartilage.
It was just, oh, it was sonasty and I was just like what
have they done to our food?
What have they done to our food?
(44:24):
And like, what is it doing tomy body?
Yeah, and to my brain, yeah,like mm.
Yeah, no, and that's that.
You know, if our food change,if people started and I feel
like they actually are startingto do that, they are starting to
to take a stand, so to speak Ifpeople started actually paying
(44:51):
attention to what they wereputting into their bodies, I
feel like the mental healthcrisis would at least slow down
a little bit.
Yeah, because I mean, I don'tthink we can 100% heal what
we've done to our bodies,because it's it's and like what
we've done to our minds, likeit's on a cellular level at this
point, like it's affectingeverything.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
But definitely, yeah, and you want to talk about
mental health and so it'sinteresting.
Yeah, he just came to visit.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, I always tell people like halfway through
episodes.
Sometimes I'll have my toddlercome out and say hi, and it's
like you know what.
I'm not going to even botherediting this out.
This is a family podcast, likeyou know.
If you have a problem hearingmy toddler ask for a hug or the
dog panting, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, yeah, this is what you're getting.
Yes, yeah.
So when, when a pregnant momand I think this is what
happened to me I experienced somuch depression and anxiety
during pregnancy, it actuallychanges on a cellular level that
child's brain, and so what?
(46:03):
How I've seen it play intoaction for my son is he now has
anxiety.
As a six-year-old he was a crierand I think when you study the
cortisol levels of a child whohad a mother who had a lot of
anxiety versus a child who had amother who did not have anxiety
(46:23):
, their baseline cortisol levelswere heightened than the child
who did not have that.
Oh, they're going into theworld with higher cortisol
levels.
So this is a generational thing.
More mothers who are moreanxious and more depressed leads
into more children who are moreanxious and more depressed, and
(46:46):
on and on.
That goes Wow, yeah, it's.
It's scary to think about howmuch our bodies in pregnancy
affect our babies, but it reallydoes, and that's why they say
when you're pregnant, I mean,try to be as stress-free as
possible, as well as taking your, your prenatals, and and all of
(47:10):
that healthy, nutritious eatingyeah.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yeah, wow, that's.
I did not.
I did not know that, I hadn'teven really thought about that,
actually like how, how it coulddo that.
But that actually does makesense because there's like so
much that passes between themother and the baby in utero.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, and so because I had a heightened cortisol
levels through most of mypregnancy I was constantly
crying, I was constantly worried, I was constantly being berated
and belittled from the personwho was supposed to be loving me
and supporting me, and also wemoved a ton, so moving is a big
(47:51):
stressor.
Also, he came out as a crierand I struggled with
breastfeeding and the crying inturn like flipped my anxiety on
and so I had to wear likeearplugs just to deal with him.
And yeah, he just kind of gottriggered a little bit easier
(48:14):
than than another time, yeah,yeah, yeah, then most kids yeah,
that cortisol piece is is huge.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Wow See, that just kind of goes to show, though,
that like if we had bettersupport for moms and like if
there wasn't such a stigmasurrounding mental health,
especially in women, thiswouldn't be such a big problem.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yeah, agreed, I mean we need more support?
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, we definitely do.
So what would you suggest topeople that are, like you know,
looking to increase the supportin their lives and looking to
you know maybe help fix currentmental health problems that they
might have right now?
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Definitely.
So I would say, if you're amother to children zero to five,
look up parents' teachers.
It's a nationwide program, ahome visiting program.
That's just a little plug.
I fully believe in the outcomesof home visiting.
So look up if it's in your area.
That's number one.
(49:21):
Support is a huge thing.
So find somebody that you trustto talk to, whether that's a
friend, a therapist, a familymember.
You need to start identifyingwho you can talk to and you know
(49:43):
you need to have that trustbuilt Right.
And I would also say gettingsleep is super important.
Oh, my goodness, enough sleep,definitely, for yourself, for
your children.
You know, take the magnesium,let it slowly drift you to sleep
and go to bed.
I mean, you know, but don'tsleep too much.
(50:05):
If you're depressed, how doesthat happen?
So get up on time, have a goodsleep schedule Right, and then
you know, like we said, thatnutrition piece is huge.
So eating healthy foods will,you know, deal you with that
nutritious piece.
(50:26):
You know, are you gettingenough protein?
Are you snacking on like emptyfoods?
And then you know, get out andget out and walk and enjoy
nature.
Don't push yourself to doanything crazy like exercise,
but just to.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
you know a gentle walk.
Don't do like exercise.
Don't ever do anything crazylike exercise.
Yeah, I always tell people thatif you see me running, you
should be running too.
Be worried Be worried, wescared people.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, yeah, but just even a gentle little exercise
and just I would also say toanybody out there you're not
alone, even though it feels likeit, and you be gentle with
yourself and take time foryourself.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, yeah, and counseling.
I would also want to addcounseling, like I had I.
So I struggled.
A couple of years ago I wasreally struggling with just it
all kind of just fell all atonce on top of me during.
It was actually during COVID,coincidentally, so it was during
(51:34):
COVID.
I was working, my husband waswas gone working.
I had a almost two year old, Ihad just had a miscarriage.
There was like all of thesethings that just like fell on
top of me and I had a lot oftrauma from a couple of years
ago that I had gone through,that.
I had actually never really goneto counseling for, like, I'd
(51:56):
started a couple appointmentsand the guy turned out to be
crazy, a quack.
So I quit and I was just likeyou know, therapy is stupid, I
just need to get over myself andmove on.
Well, getting over myself andmoving on ended in a panic
attack underneath my, my workdesk and so I I, my husband was
(52:22):
just like babe, you need, youneed help, like you need to talk
to someone, you need to figureout what's going on, you need to
work through this.
So I actually I went to, Istarted going to therapy and it
was all it was telehealth, itwas all over the phone because,
you know, during the middleCOVID, there was no in person
appointments or anything likethat.
But oh my gosh, like it helpedso much and it could have just
(52:44):
been the therapist, but I only,I was only in therapy for seven
months, I think, and it was anabsolute night and day
difference and like, just how Iapproached life and how I looked
at life and I mean I was I wasso negative before and just you
(53:06):
know, waiting for the other shoeto drop constantly, and just
like I said negative, and likeshe was so helpful when it came
to just giving me tools just tostart my day on a positive note.
Just little things like what amI thankful for today?
Waking up with that justpositive note was just huge.
(53:29):
So yeah, therapy is huge whenit comes to mental health
because, unlike a lot of people,like we've mentioned, we
mentioned earlier in thispodcast like older generations
see therapy as a joke.
Yeah, and I've experienced thatin my own family like when I
would mention going to therapy,it was always like, oh it's, you
(53:51):
know you don't want to go totherapy because you know talking
about it is just going to keepit at the forefront of your mind
at all times.
And you just need to.
You need to bury it and getover it.
It's like, but it's still there.
Your problem is still there andyou haven't faced it and you
haven't fixed it.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
So definitely, yeah, no, definitely I would.
I would recommend going totherapy.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
So yeah, and finding somebody that you trust.
You know like you experiencethat with one therapist.
It just wasn't, wasn't doing itand you have to have a good
relationship with your therapistand and like what they're doing
, but like what they're bringingto the table for you.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, and it's not always going to feel good to it.
Like therapy is not going to beeasy.
It's not easy.
It's definitely hard to likeface those parts of yourself,
but it's so worth it, evenduring the brief time much I
mean I need to go back, butduring the brief time I was in,
like it is so worth it.
(54:50):
So, yeah, I would definitely, Iwould recommend that.
So, yeah, all right.
Well, thank you very much forcoming on, caitlin.
This has been an amazingconversation.
Yes, absolutely yeah, I hope tohave you on again.
This was actually really fun,yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
I was glad to talk more about mental health and I
hope our your viewers can canglean something from it.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of All Our
Little Messes.
Please let us know how much youenjoyed it below and add any
questions you have about thisepisode.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Patreon for amazing
exclusive perks, including earlyaccess to podcast episodes and
bonus episodes every month.
(55:43):
We've also recently added asupport group for all of our
paid patrons.
You could check us out onFacebook and Instagram for daily
updates and insights thatmirror podcast topics.
Thank you for listening andwe'll see you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!