Blind Shots Podcast S5 E15 – We’re going to The Open! A chat with Kieran Clark.

I’m taking my family to the 2024 Open Championship at Royal Troon this month. To prepare for our adventure, I called on long-time friend of the podcast and unofficial Scotland correspondent Kieran Clark to talk about what we can expect to experience, as well as the current state of Scottish golf. Kieran is a St.…

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Hello. Welcome to the Blinds shots podcast, I'm
Murals David Hill. Coming to you from the
Saint Andrews Lynx Club house taking in the
splendid views in all directions but with a
keen interest not only in the q and
the put green next to the old courses
first tee, but also this curious plot of
Hi Valleys,
known as the Saint. Andrews, ladies pudding course.

(00:30):
And this season 5 episode 15.
On Saturday, July 20, I'm going to wake
up early make sure my boys have a
good breakfast
And then as a family, we're all going
down to t to attend the third round
of this year's open championship.
To say I'm excited is the understatement of
the year, much like I built a week
long golf adventure around winning an old course

(00:52):
t time 5 years ago. My wife and
I have spent the past year building a
10 day Scottish adventure, round winning tickets for
the whole family,
in the lottery system for the hundred and
50 second open at royal T.
Strictly speaking, it's a family vacation and decidedly
not a golf trip, but I'm gonna manage
to work in golf around

(01:12):
the edges, the aforementioned Himalayas is putting course
as it's commonly known and hope to try
out the hickory for the first time at
the Mu our old course inside the race
racetrack out to East of Et edinburgh.
As excited, I'm about the trip, I have
so many questions about what to expect, what
to what I'm gonna find in my ancestral
home laying this time around. What what's changed

(01:33):
in 5 years since I've been there. What
can I expect that an an open championship
as opposed to maybe a a Pga or
a regular
tour event?
What's Scotland the summer like? I was there
late fall early the winter last time And
what will be the main differences I, should
expect to notice in Glasgow as opposed to
Edinburgh.

(01:54):
To get a handle on these queries and
calibrate our trip expectations I've called upon friend
of the podcast Kieran Clark for second appearance.
As the blind shots podcast, resident Scottish affiliate,
he and I cover wide swath of topics
from the state of Scottish golf to the
particulars of attending or not attending the open.

(02:14):
Kieran quick with this wit and generous with
this time, which makes him 1 of my
favorite golf conversation lists. I've had this conversation
in the can for longer than I expected.
So there may be a few dated references
to what were then recent events, but I
think the overall tenor and larger topics of
the conversation hold up just fine.
Before we dive into this conversation reminded that

(02:35):
the blind shots podcast is made possible
without commercial interruption or international smuggling, By my
day job is David Hill, realtor with Rec
Aid realtors.
I help people sell their houses and find
their new homes as well as helping investors
and businesses,
with their commercial property needs here in Central
Kentucky. If you have a need or just
some real estate questions. Please reach out. You

(02:57):
can email me at david ill at RHR
dot com. We'll give me a call 8593334517.
And I'll be happy to get a conversation
started with you. R Now, listen close and
try to keep up as I welcome Karen
Clark to the show
to teach me about what to expect on
my open championship.

(03:26):
Well, 1 of the things I wanted to
bring up. I wanted wanna get your opinion
on. I've got... I've got 6 questions. I
don't know if Through them all not.
1, I wanted to... And they're not really
questions. They're are just... I'm gonna tee up
a topic and let you go.
The state... I I wanna do some level
setting on the state of golf. Over in
your neck of the woods. In Scotland and

(03:46):
then the Uk and Ireland more generally Because
here,
let me do the the Us level setting
just for perspective here,
golf is booming like it hasn't done in
probably 10 or 15 years.
Maybe even longer. I mean, there are waiting
list at golf clubs and country clubs
the golf construction business is booming.
My my friends in the architecture and the

(04:08):
building business safe. If you're not busy right
now, there's something wrong. You're never going to
be busy. You need to do something else.
Because they all... All the architects have waiting
list. They're booked. You know, the the 4
gods of modern American Gulf
Bill Mc clay Kid, Gil Hands, Cor all,
Tom Doe. They're all booked 5, 8 years
out. Good luck, you know, getting them to

(04:28):
return your phone call. And that has trickled
down quite a bit all the way to
new people starting out.
You know, we... We've seen inflation in the
business. Obviously, from the golf course side from
the equipment side, that's not getting any
less expensive.
If participation, we've had AAA mild
participation boom that has died kind of stuck

(04:48):
around since Covid.
And III just was reading Derek
latest post that, you know, that that actually
may be affecting
1 of the things affecting Pro golf viewership.
We'll we'll circle all the way back to
that a little later.
And then resort and destination golf is
maybe as popular as it's ever been.

(05:09):
You know, the the far flung, they're they're
developing big businesses, that the dream golf people,
you know, the Kaiser is abandoned dune and
the people,
you know, and even older destinations. It's trickling
down to places like W straits,
you know, Florida is seen...
There's saying if there's not New golf being
built, they're being renovated and they have these

(05:30):
aggressive marketing plans and they're all magically booked.
Like there's you're waitlist listed everywhere.
I have heard tale that it is getting
harder for visitors that that it's spilling over,
this American golf participation boom is spilling over
into international travel that has become a little
harder,

(05:51):
for us
strangers in a new land to find t
times, but, you know, the bigger name courses.
Mh. And Scotland,
and I assume England and and Wales in
Ireland as well,
I know fees have gone up. There's there
are a couple people that follow that pretty
closely of what the the fees are at
those clubs. So
with that being kind of on the American

(06:11):
side,
where is golf in your neighborhood?
I think it's very similar, David. Obviously going
back to the pandemic when it struck in
20 20. Obviously, we had the lockdown downs,
people were stuck at home. And 1 of
the first things you could actually do was
go and play a golf.
When restrictions were began to be lifted. So
I think basically across the board internationally, Gulf

(06:32):
saw would has some presence anyway, saw a
huge boom because people went out played Golf
either for the first time or we're coming
back to the game after many years away.
And that led to, obviously, I huge demand
for Golf club memberships, and much like you
mentioned before they're in America,
waiting lists which for most golf clubs were
no longer a thing here. They came back
and actually quite sizable numbers, which was surprising.

(06:55):
And that sustained itself for a couple years
off a post pandemic and never were kind
of in the what is the new normal
gonna be. And I think the data that
we've seen on golf shape and the stuff
read is relatively encouraging in terms of membership
number
still being very robust.
But of course, the longer term picture, what
will it be as the years go on

(07:16):
because in the past couple of years, much
like in the states and around the world
we've had a first cost of living crisis
in the Uk.
Inflation has been very high, it's coming down
now, but it was very high for a
long time. And when that happens people will
obviously typically
prioritized how they spend their money and Gulf
for some very strange people is not the
most essential of things in life, but for
those people, they've been cutting back. Those parcels.

(07:37):
I know what's wrong with them mate.
So, yeah, That's been a a factor as
well. But this... Despite all of that, and
kind of concerns in the past 18 months
that we might see a decline. It hasn't
really been the case. So most golf clubs
in a really strong position. And you mentioned
as well, the international tourism, and of course,
during Covid, that completely disappeared
altogether overnight, and that was a huge impact.

(07:58):
For a lot of the high end venues
in the Uk obviously that really rely on
that to kinda sustain them. So they had
to find alternative ways to bring people from
Within. This country actually go and visit them.
And, of course, in the past couple of
years now, travels come back to normal, and
that kind of pent up demand was obviously
significant, and obviously where I am in S
Andrews, can see that first firsthand where the

(08:20):
international travel is now, you know, reached a
whole new level and the the record numbers
of interests here, The t times are all
taken up, and you It's actually kinda of
leading to a
interesting little discussion right now because a lot
of the local golfers here in S andres
are kind of concerned.
About the amount of t times are now
being allocated to visitors and specifically

(08:42):
international kind of golf travel companies who spy
t times and sell them off.
And that's actually led to that the past
couple of weeks. An organization has
sprung up out of nowhere.
I will cut 1 day saw in the
newspaper online, there it was, and it's basically,
all of the local links ticket holders as
are called people officer some time who have
right to play the golf courses here. Apparently,

(09:04):
some them have come together,
create a little website,
and are trying to make a case that
the S length trust is no longer fit
for purpose
because it's no longer
actually
fulfilling it's,
declaration when it was founded fifth years ago,
which was to preserve the golf courses
for the local people and others.

(09:25):
And this group's trying to make the case
now The is actually flipped around,
and the focus is now on the other
people not so much local golfers and they're
a little bit unhappy about this.
That's kind of obviously on a side and
obviously, Entire is very unique and it isn't
really representative of most other places in the
country. But I think generally speaking, things are
still encouraging, but where we have an issue

(09:47):
in the Uk right now, David, is the
fact that we're a really, really bad. But
winter of weather. Now. I know you say,
Wack man. It's Scotland, it's England. It's always
gonna be bad, but it's been really, really
bad, like,
record levels of rainfall for the past really
18 months now,
across the Uk. So a lot of golf
courses have been closed for a long time
over winter,
and people will pay their 12 month long

(10:09):
membership fees,
but they haven't able to play very much
over winter, and that's what we're seeing in
our surveys we've done recently, as people are
began to think, well, why should I pay
for 12 months of Golf when I can
only play for 6 or 7 realistically.
And people are beginning to think well. Maybe
I could just step back and just pay
as I play.
They're looking for more flexible membership options there.

(10:31):
And that's potentially a
issue that will rise over the years to
come. So right now, I think things are
very positive still. But for golf clubs and
hit run the Uk. I think they should
look forward. Next 05:10 years and realize that
packs, consumer habits are going change and evolve,
and they have to be ready for that.
And I'm not convinced that too many of
them are because as we all know, I

(10:52):
think Golf is the same all across the
world in this way is that Golf tends
to be probably 05:10 years behind most other
things. In terms of catching up to what
the reality of today is. And I think
that could be a problem going forward. But
for now, David, I would say that play
into 20 24 golf season obviously now in
really kicking off in style. I think things
are still mostly
encouraging in the the the old world if

(11:14):
you like.
Did the... III wanna
think about this Saint. Andrews. Because that's interesting
because I had... I don't know if I'd
read it or just heard it through kind
of podcast that there was
that there was such a rush from the
international crowd to get to...
Let's face it. That's probably affecting what. Maybe
a dozen golf club

(11:34):
courses in the Uk. Like, this this is
a very high end problem. Right? This is
the old course
the honorable company, you know, Car, for probably,
you know, few Door maybe.
Yep.
The... Is it...
Is it just access to the old course
that is driving this or is this trickling

(11:54):
down to the new and the Eden and
and all of the courses that are are
there around Saint. Andrews?
All all of them, and that's exactly that's
a big issue here. And obviously, you mentioned,
like Near field and so on in royal
true, and they're very exclusive golf clubs. That
they're kind of different whereas the issue here
is you have roughly 10000
people to 1 degree or another have the

(12:16):
right so the golf courses here. Whether they
be the students,
whether they be the Golf club members, or
the local people or those further you you
have tickets as well, So around 10000 people
are trying to get regular golf in amongst,
literally thousands of tourists coming in all the
time. And there are 7 golf courses that
are part of the Link trusted As you
know David, and they're all

(12:36):
booked up all the time extremely busy.
Yeah. So even even Eden Course, which is
probably 4 for fifth on the list here,
it's really busy that out as well. Even
the visitors coming here, Can't always get the
t time they want to get.
So everyone's kinda scrambling on for this. And
there is a real concern that perhaps the
links trust and trying to recoup... A lot

(12:57):
of the losses they made during the pandemic,
the height of it certainly, which were significant.
If sold off more of the t times
and what they had before, to the the
Golf travel companies, Nate Pay a high premium
for those. So even the people who come
here
from America from Japan or Europe, who want
to enter the old course ballot or go
and up play the new course or it

(13:18):
might be, even they are finding it hard
to get times because people have paid
big money to get the guarantee
time on the old course.
So, you know, the they have come out
and tried to
cam things down by the offered for next
year. There'll be a greater number of t
times for the ticket holders and some of
the other golf courses. There'll be every second
time on the new course will be guaranteed

(13:39):
for a local golfer if they want it.
But for the old course, certainly, it's a
problem, but as you say as well, is
beginning to trickle down elsewhere. But, of course,
have to remember, and you you've kind of
referenced it there. We are talking about in
this particular case, really a dozen couple of
dozen absolute most high end golf courses is
that, frankly, the average golfer in the Uk

(14:01):
will very really play. Maybe once in a
lifetime kinda I thing because they are becoming
extremely expensive, and that's another issue together in
terms of the green fleet
inflation, whereas as far as I'm concerned golf
plugs including S,
they charge not what they think actually a
reasonable price. They charge what they think they
can get a away with. And it's too
low. It it's too low. You, the the

(14:22):
this this market demonstration says it's too low.
And that's, you know, that's 1 of the
things we've noticed in destination golf is that
pebble beaches into, you know, a thousand dollars
around. Yeah.
You know, the the starting price
at
the most popular courses like Band Dune,
Sand Valley, Those those are starting at 325
dollars.

(14:44):
How many... I mean, what percentage of
you kind of reference it? The gulf between
what I would consider community golf?
Mh. You know, your local course that you
play most versus,
you know, that round. It it... But all
of this new construction that we're seeing here
is all at that hundred and 75 dollars.

(15:04):
So really hundred and 25 pounds, hundred and
50 pounds or more per round. Yep. That
that strikes me as
just you guys being in my my ancestors.
Like that hurts a little bit when
it's almost become too easy to pay that
for the the quality of golf. So it
it seems
that strikes me as something at Scotland, like,
the locals are really gonna revolt over.
Mh.

(15:25):
You know, that that kind of experience. Yeah.
1 another sub strain I wanna pull it
on this.
1 of the things we're seeing here. With...
In addition to this
participation boom that is driving prices and in
rounds.
Another thing we have here is
a housing shortage. People like to say housing

(15:45):
crisis, but it's a big country. We've got
plenty of room to grow. We just don't
have
a lot of housing in places people want
to live. Like, we don't have excess capacity.
They've run into this, my friends in Australia
that they're in the golf podcast game. I
don't know if you follow any of those
guys Rod and Adrian and and down there.
There, you know, there are
there, it's not just private, but a lot

(16:07):
of public courses at risk as towns are
looking at changing green space or, you know,
developers wanna get their hands on on key
real estate. Is that even... Is that part
of the equation there and in
on Great Britain or is... Because it doesn't
strike me as a high growth place as
far as
on the real estate side, which is my
actually day job business. So talk to me

(16:29):
a little bit. Is that a, a factor.
I know you guys don't build as many
new courses But I don't... Are you are
you losing courses outside of, you know, I
know coastal erosion is is kind of a
a real scary subject, but I threw, like,
6 things right there. So pick 1,
go from there.
Okay. So the answer to your question is
that there are concerns about certainly the public

(16:50):
golf courses. Counts council run golf courses by
local authorities. So just in the past a
few months in Scotland alone, we've seen golf
courses in dundee, just very close Andrew's city
there, 12 miles away, and in glasgow
an area around that as well, where the
council have been looking for ways to save
money because has been budget cuts because of
all the cost living pressures and all the

(17:10):
rest of it. And they're looking for ways
to, you know, increase screen space within the
cities.
Try meet obviously, environmental targets and things like
that. And Golf is quite an easy thing
to cut in in their in their minds
anyway because it has this
fortunately, it has this image of being an
an elitist sport,
and it's quite a some politicians think it's

(17:32):
quite an easier thing to kind of target.
And thankfully east, golf of courses have have
been saved in Scotland for the time being
due to the public outcry against them, but
having golf of courses is down in England
in London specifically.
El golf course has been closed down there
in West London. It will closed down in
the summer, despite public outcry there. Because they
want to create these huge public parks within

(17:53):
the city. And And for people people that
don't know. Yeah. But for just for people
that listeners they don't know West London,
that's a pretty Tony area. Right? That's Chelsea
and and as as if you were picking...
Yeah. If... Yeah. Like, it's a nice Nice
area. This is Nice. Yeah Yeah. This isn't
a redevelopment project. No. Not at all. It's
just trying to really

(18:13):
enhance the the green space in the area,
and and
basically, I think it's a big part it's
to try and meet environmental targets as well.
And
so rather than building houses on these golf
courses, A love is taking the golf of
course, and then repurposing it as something else
that basically the whole community
can use. Now it has to be said
a lot of these golf courses perhaps are

(18:34):
not sustainable in terms of how they're being
run and managed.
That's been a problem for a long time
with a lot of kind of council run
golf courses.
When you get the politicians involved and they're
only there for a few years and they're
gone some other guys are in, and all
becomes very inconsistent and very poorly managed.
But, of course, you were talking about high
end golf courses these are so far removed

(18:54):
from that, but they're are more important because
ultimately, these golf courses are the pathway they
get into the game for so many people
and they have been especially in the inner
cities.
And and that's a real issue. You're 1
of my colleagues at Golf, Andrew Pick,
a golf of course, where he lives in
in the middle of England. In a city
called Darby. A Golf of course there was
closed a few years ago by the council

(19:15):
called Ali Street Park and and these a
really big historian and He became very passionate
about this golf course and looked into it.
And he found out in the research that
it was actually designed by the Great Harry
C
back in 19 30.
It was establishes as being the derby or
Golf club. And with 1 of the most
premier golf courses in that area of England.

(19:35):
But then second world war happened, the golf,
of course was discharged. Then after the war,
the currents took it over in 19 48
and kind of ran it from there. And
now it's closed down, and it's been turned
into a natural site for wildlife etcetera. But
this Golf course is a Harry Cult original,
but the local authority refuses to acknowledge this

(19:55):
fact or understands the significance of it. And
and been passionately fighting us for 3 or
4 years now, but sadly,
think it's gonna be 1 of those long
forgotten tails. And
so you have a disconnect between
the the high end golf of courses that
are obviously protected and they flourish all the
rest of it. And, the more traditional golf
clubs that are still doing very well across

(20:16):
the country with the high memberships, but there
is an issue when and the public golf
courses are being threatened and that is certainly
a case in in the Uk, and I
think it's gonna be an issue going forward
as well. And that could be a problem
in the decades to come when it comes
to bringing in new golfers because though... Those
places remain the kind of nucleus for new

(20:36):
players most accessible golf courses you can play.
And if we don't have many of those,
and where do these prospective golfers go? And
that's a concern.
Right. You've got to... Then the the entire
industry is banking on a a superstar to
draw interest in and we're back into the
same cycle that we had
over again, rather than, yeah, kind of sustaining

(20:57):
what we have. It's always tricky. I love
public golf, but it is I play a
lot of public golf, but it is really
tricky when government gets in the entrepreneurial business,
the way that it's it's judged, and they
they treat it differently, and it's outside of
expertise. So, yeah, it's
good luck. Right, we're facing that that here
too.

(21:17):
You know, right now, the numbers The participant
participation numbers are high enough that
everyone likes golf courses.
I had on our...
State park
commissioner a couple of, maybe a month ago,
and he was talking about. He was able
to grab a...
They
pretty sizable budget allocation for this 2 year
cycle to invest in the golf courses because

(21:39):
golf is big right now, and it provides
jobs and tourism and and on and on,
but you know, like you said, in lean
times,
boy, that's an easy thing for them to
say, well, why are we spending x million
dollars at at this course, We could... You
know, it's outside of our core function? Let's
just slash it. Yeah.
1 of the... If not the primary reason,
other than just to catch up. I I

(21:59):
did wanna ask you. So I'm bringing my
family to the open this year. I was
able to get tickets.
Tickets for T.
We had a nice test run last year.
I took the boys.
To an Lp fpga event in Cincinnati, which
was only about an hour away from here.
We had fun, And the, you know, the
the women's tournament was great. They're so engaging

(22:21):
Yeah. It's a very, you know, relaxed atmosphere.
And all of my dad nightmares did not
come true. I did not have to grab
anyone's mouth, you know, or, like, turn them.
They were... They knew when to be still
and when to be quiet.
But as...
And I've been to a major championship I've
been to a Pga here at Val hall.
Val hall is about an hour away. Yeah.
But it's coming up, you know, next month.

(22:43):
And that is
So my only experience with the open is,
obviously from Tv from video.
It looks even a little more
as an ignorant American, it seems like it's
a very
kind of...
I don't know, quiet but a much more
formal environment than kind of the ro beer
soaked,

(23:03):
Pga.
I've only been to the eastern side of
of Scotland. En edinburgh, Saint Andrew's Dundee up
that sort of area. So this will be
our first time. We're we're splitting the trip.
We're gonna spend a little time at En
edinburgh.
In a little time, we're gonna make base
camp in Glasgow.
So as
a pi
visiting a holy land, what can we expect

(23:26):
to find around the open. We're going to
a Saturday round. That's the ticket we have.
So, you know, we we are trying to
plan as best we can, but
As far as here logistics are a huge
thing. You know, they they... You park off
sites and there are buses or tram or
things to get you to the or close
to the golf course when it's a major

(23:46):
event like that.
What is... What can I expect it? You
know, for an open experience at T, which
is, you know, kind of out of the
way. It's out what about it?
I don't know maybe an hour outside of
Glass proper Yeah. Over on the coast.
So it just help me sort of envision
what I'm gonna be looking at trying to
get to around at the open championship.

(24:08):
Well, you have several options because they will
have rail travel running from Glasgow
down to trenton down the coast we're counting
on it. Yeah. And that's a really good
option to have. And that's something that, you'll
really
works really well in the open and certainly
some of the venues in particular. So the
likes of ka.
You have a railway station right there at
the Golf course, You know, trends the same

(24:29):
there. Even last year, at Royal Liverpool cold
down, England, very close to the train station
there as well, people who are actually going
on Liverpool the city out to the Golf
Course at H, which is a fair drive
and quite a lot of rural roads, very
narrow roads and small towns, but the train
ticks out of the equation entirely. So the
the rail shovel is a big thing for
the open these days. They it'll take, you

(24:50):
know, thousands of fans every single day down
from Glasgow
to tune and the golf course isn't far
away from there at all. So that's a
big thing for it as well. Of course
people can drive there too, lots of parking
will be available, of course, as well. But
the open these days has got bigger and
bigger. And that's benefiting the thing that I've
seen in my
lifetime sort of being part of the being

(25:11):
at the open fall the open. From when
I was a kid, it was a little
bit smaller than what it's become now.
And certainly here in S andrew a couple
of years ago when 150
open championship where British open it's something... Like
the call it, I don't really... I doesn't
offend me at all, actually, I'm not 1
of these people that get upset with that.
As long as you enjoy it, you can
call it what you like. And

(25:31):
It's much bigger. The infrastructure around the championship
it was huge though, the hospitality, the stands,
the
merchandise you name it. It's a huge now.
And I think they've borrowed an awful lot
from what they see in the majors over
in the states. I think they've been over
there and watched that and seem right, how
do we commercial us more, and now it's
a huge commercial be steel open championship.

(25:52):
And so it's it's a great day out
to go to it. And obviously, long daylight,
so can spend the whole day there, you
know, t times from the earliest part of
the morning right through to the evening,
And much of it now actually kind of
arranged around Us Tv time. So that's why
it actually finishes quite late on Saturday here.
Almost 9PM, local time. Time actually its.

(26:14):
So it's it's a it's a long, long
day.
Especially the the pace the players play at
these days and it goes on 5 hour
rounds are almost normal now sadly.
So, yeah. It's a huge day out.
And the the infrastructure is great. The organization
around it is really well done as well.
And I think sc a fantastic venue,
kind of an underrated venue in many your

(26:35):
respects as well.
Obviously, when you ask the average person think
to the open of the British open, you'll
think of S andrews, might think of Burke
deal, even Car has kind of info around
the golf course. Mh. But true probably not
so much, and it's a little bit unfair
because it's a really good golf course. A
good viewing course as well. And you'll see
a lot there. And it's a good location

(26:55):
because even though it's in that arrow away
from Glasgow,
is accessible about via the railway and of
course by road as well.
So obviously, when you go to the open,
you go to these generally speaking very small
seaside towns, and they'll have, kind of their
own.
Charm and identity or something people see a
lack of charm depending on here. 1 time
a year actually go to them.
It depends. But, know, trends a nice place,

(27:17):
lovely beach.
Great view across the water, the the fe
of clyde as it's called. You see the
aisle of iron and the desert is, you
know, huge mountains there.
So it's a good location. It's a good
setting,
and a really good golf of course, actually
walk and and explore because as you know,
having been here, Links golf courses on the
seaside side. They aren't tough walks. They aren't

(27:37):
really hell or even that long. So it's
a really good place to actually take kids
too because
you know, it's not gonna tire them out
walking around too much, and you can see
a lot doing it. So I think you're
in for an absolute treat, but, of course,
the bigger thing really is getting to explore.
Glasgow and Edi edinburgh as well and the
area around that. I mean, that is a

(27:58):
a trip in itself. Oh, absolutely. It... It's...
You know, and
I was glad to be able to get
tickets kinda through the lottery. I got in
early. No idea what demand was gonna be.
I was happy that it was true because
it's a... You know, what the true links
And, you know, from the the little bit
I've learned about the course,
it does look like it'll be a fun
walk in a good viewing.

(28:18):
Y, and Il van and Mc
beyond it. You know, those are aspirational for
me. That's part... That's a future trip, so
I can look out over the sea and
say 1 day.
Yeah know, I'm glad there's so much emphasis
on the the public
transport. Because if I had never drive in
Scotland, I'll die a happy man.
That's just not... That's experiencing that is not
something I I know I grew up driving

(28:40):
country roads, but they're different here. Yeah. There's
room there's room for 2 cars on a
country road in the United States.
But my only regret... You know, I I
love the the way we're kinda breaking up
the trip. We're making 10 days out of
it. So we're gonna do the first part
in Edinburgh.
I wish there was
more time to spend

(29:00):
kind of down at t itself, you know,
down. Mh. Those areas of the coast tron
and impressed week just would be, I think,
would be fun to explore. But Yep. You
know, looking at...
We looked at housing, we're, you know, we're
just renting a small flat. In the city,
which was
kept the trip affordable because, you know, around
around the open, anything within driving distance of

(29:21):
troops just talk about inflate... You know, price
gouging and inflation. It... It's really
really kind of eye opening. IIII
didn't
I'm not super... I'm proud of my people
for taking advantage of it over there, but
it was...
It was while to see,
the the trade off on this trip is
that I'm not bringing my golf. Clubs.

(29:41):
It's is a family trip, but
I am not... I am allowed to rent
golf clubs. So I think while the
my wife is is
into Harry Potter and she's gotten the boys
into harry Potter and god bless them. That's
good. So I think they're gonna do a
tour. You kind of
the old areas been edinburgh to to see
some harry potter stuff. I'm just gonna quietly

(30:02):
hop on the train or the bus to
go play muscle barrel old. I'm going to
rent a agrees and Yeah. That that was
like my 1 regret. We chose to to
play leaving links, which I don't have any
regrets about on our kind of getaway date.
Last time I was there instead of coming
back into the city.
So I'm gonna go see that. I'm excited
about that. And
we're maybe spending a day up Saint Andrews,

(30:24):
and I'll give you a heads up if
we are just to see. Yes.
Maybe try to get a
a reservation over on the Himalayas, let the
kids putter around. Mh. Yeah there. They've gotten
into golf, and, you know, I'll tell you
the
golf of course, I went to yesterday. I
actually took the kids to on our president's
day. There's was a school holiday.
Mh. And we happen to have some nice...

(30:44):
It was a nice February day, and we
went down
And there was 1 particular green on this
whole. It it kind of has a lion's
mouth, little bunker and it it's kind of
a double plateau
deal.
And
I think my oldest son took a 13,
and I think my youngest son, I let
him pick up a 4 footer for 15.

(31:04):
And it was the most fun. We're probably
on that hole for 20 minutes, and we
just laughed because they they couldn't put the
ball up the hill. They couldn't go around
and that kind of just wild putting, you
know, yeah. Obviously, not as extreme as a
himalayas course, but we just had so much
fun trying to figure out how to get
ball to do what we wanted.

(31:25):
So if that's available,
you know, I know that'll be July will
be peak season, and it'll be Think it'll
be interested to see kind of the vibes
around the city. I've not been to glasgow,
you know, had a very good experience in
Edinburgh and, obviously, Saint Andres andrew's is always
great. Mh. Is there Now, are there cultural
things I should be aware of just as
AAA
foreign man or foreign land around

(31:46):
you know,
Scotland's other major city.
Nope, hold on. Third your microphone has gone
out.
Me try to mute a few you Funny
being there you are. You're You're back. It
I'm back. Let's sorry.

(32:06):
Yeah. Cut. Thank you. Right Okay. So... Yes.
I would say yeah. There's a dividing line
perceived divide line between Glasgow
at Edinburgh, which is interesting because in reality,
there is only around 40 miles in distance
between them, which for you in Kentucky. That's
nothing at all between 2 cities. That's 1
side of town to the other side of
town. Exactly. And say most places. But here

(32:28):
These 2 cities are so different in terms
of the people, their disposition, even the way
they speak, the accents are remarkably different
and there are subtle differences there where, you
know, glasgow is very much an industrialized city,
and you know, used to have kind of
rough time that it's much improved over the

(32:48):
years has a good vi seats to it
as well. And is
has a real life to it. Whereas Edinburgh
obviously has the most... You know the most
incredible
architecture, and you could walk those streets just
forever, I I love going there, just explore
and just to walk around this... Your imagination
one's wild seen all the old medieval buildings.
And imagining what was there before like, walking

(33:10):
the Royal mile, which is between Hollywood Palace
up to Edi edinburgh Castle,
which you're basically walking through history.
And that's just fantastic. You can go to
places like the grass market. And Edi Edinburgh
is full of all the pubs and so
on. But back in the day, that where
they had the public
executions.
If you go there, there's even a pub
that's called the last drop, which can mean,

(33:32):
of course, well, the last bit of whiskey,
or well,
you've been hung. So so there's a little
cruel pun there. So but it's full of
that wonderful history. So, you your, Glasgow is
a little bit more of today, I would
say, whereas Aaron edinburgh very much of the
past in terms of the history and the
icon of it all. But there are 2

(33:52):
fascinating in places. I mean, you know, glasgow
has always had a it's got a,
kind of energy to underneath the surface where
it's driven, you know, in many respects by
your religion or something historically it was.
These days, it's driven by that's kinda reflected
in the 2 big
football or soccer teams are there. Glasgow rangers

(34:13):
and glasgow Celtic who are huge differences there,
and that's kind of that energy that sees
under the surface. But glass has got a
great history to it as well. It was
obviously back in the day. It was major
shipbuilding
hub. So the world came to Glasgow and
all these ships were built there and they
all went out. And and that was kind
of a big part of glasgow story,

(34:34):
then that industry kind of decline and fell
away. But glass was kind of become this
set or techno technological center,
science,
education as well for the universities there,
and it's a really fun place to explore.
And 1 thing I would recommend is you,
when you go there is get on the
the open top bus tour, go on the
bus tour, and they'll take you around to

(34:57):
because glasgow is a little bit harder to
walker around your edinburgh a great walking city.
I would always say. Glasgow not so much,
but you get on the road is around.
He just taken all different sites, and they'll
describe to you all the stories behind it
all. And it's a fascinating place, but Yeah.
In terms of the cultural differences,
the 2 places feel very distinct despite the

(35:17):
close proximity,
and that's kind of... What's always fascinated me,
you know, in Scotland.
The fact that most of the population, loves
of fitness this a very small area.
But yet there's so many differences between everybody
in terms of their accents and their backgrounds
and their positions and the way they are,
you kind of the
people who've also had the stereotype type people
in glasgow who are much friend.

(35:40):
Than those East coast. That... Yeah. And and
that's probably true. And and I spent part
of my childhood actually living in Glasgow.
So I was originally from the West Coast
and I moved over to the east. So
I kinda have... I'm playing both sides of
the field here. So I can... I'm a
double agent in that that respect.
But I think it's probably true. So I
think you'll find that people in Glasgow are
really friendly

(36:00):
you know,
energetic,
people edinburgh still friendly, but a little bit
more reserved, I would say, overall,
but, again, 2 fantastic places to go and
explore.
I would always favor
Edinburgh from a historical standpoint because I love
the history of all I love this the
buildings in the architecture. But Glasgow thinks a

(36:20):
fun place. It's when I think you'll find
some, you can have hidden gems while you're
there. And, you know, end just walking the
street it's going on the bus going some
of the
restaurants in the evening and the and the
bars and so on. Yeah, that there's a
nice vibe there too. So I think you'll
find them 2 really good hubs to go
and explore, obviously, churn for the open and
your little trip to muscle bra, which I'm

(36:40):
very en of because I've never done. I've
never played the muscle golf course, which I
really should have done because,
I have relatives who live just across the
road from it. And as a child, I
spent quite a lot of holiday time actually
staying there. And went across the road and
walking across the the horse race track around
it.

(37:01):
And the golf of course itself, I never
actually played it. And I haven't been back
there for a long, long time. So that's
also on my list to do. Well, oldest
oldest golfing grounds, you know, in the world,
and, you know, being from Kentucky, you know,
we are horse racing country. We are thorough
brands.
It's you know, the the breeding and the
training and right now, actually, here in April,

(37:21):
it's our spring season, they're running at K,
which is our local track. It's
1 of the... It's probably the most beautiful
American track,
consistently. I mean, there's 1 in San Diego
that is great on opening day, and it's
just to generate the rest of the year
whereas here in Keen, It's it's not quite
royal Ascot, but people dress up, They they
go and have a nice time, kind of

(37:41):
respectfully, it's really...
So, yes, that it combining those 2 for
me. It was just an absolute had to
do it.
You know, thank you for a little bit
of the... You know, in Glasgow, we're staying
close to 1 of the universities, and it
it seems like there's a a lot of...
Like, I'm glad you mentioned the science stuff
because there seemed to be a lot of
museums that would be kind of fun and

(38:02):
and even modern, not... Yet. Less so the
the historic
you know, seats of power like En edinburgh.
So... Yeah. I'm I'm excited
I kinda wanna see the river. I don't
know if there's good public space around the
river,
and Not I staying right downtown, but it's...
I'm looking forward to exploring both those cities.
It differently. I'm glad that are different. What
what we look what they certainly are, for

(38:23):
example, and glasgow, you have the science museum,
which is right down on the river back.
Right. Going there, you can go in there,
explore that place and come out and you're
right on the River clyde.
They also have the Transport museum in Glasgow
as well. We see the evolution transport way
back from the earliest horse carts right through
to, you know, modern technology.

(38:43):
And all that stuff's quite fun too. So
like you say, transport you know, Erin edinburgh
very much. You go there for the headings
and the royal stuff off in all that
business.
Glass is much more of than nitty gritty
everyday, like, everyday man kind of thing. And
I think that's quite fun too.
And, again, going to Muscle, as you say,
you, 1 of... 1 of, if not the
oldest golf courses and on the planet. Of

(39:04):
course, there's also a great deal dispute about
that as to what she is. Or the
sk courts and the this place. I mean,
I think ultimately no 1 can really say
definitively.
If you look at this history of it.
I mean,
yeah, golf kind of... Arguably began in leaf
links in Edinburgh itself, which is now just
public park. No trace of golf whatsoever.

(39:24):
You have muscle bra, we know golfing played
in Tan since at least the early sixteenth
century.
But on the other hand, you have the
city of Perth where I grew up where
had the first ever recorded k... Example of
son buying golf equipment was in 15 o
2,
and that was King James of fourth if
we bought golf clubs there. And if he

(39:46):
bought golf clubs there. Well, they must have
been like golf course. Right? So so... Yeah.
So maybe that is the oldest golf course
in the country. So with the 1 who
can really say for sure.
I think ultimately, what we do know is
is that based that kind of central eastern
segment of Scotland is kind of where it
began. So whether it be muscle
S,
leaf or pair that kind of circle there

(40:08):
in in of middle eastern part of the
country. I think that's kind of a... And
it depends whether you favor
east on our 5 as to what's the
older. That's and, of course, I favor 5.
So I mean, people in east. You they
always say, all, the best thing about 5
is that you can see East logan from
it.
Nothing. So, yeah. I'm a... I'm a little
bit sn here when it comes to these

(40:30):
Logan folk. I mean, they call it Scotland's
Gulf Coast.
Which is a fabulous bit of marketing, Very
clever, very intelligently done. And you can kind
of argue that it is.
I remember writing a piece 1 time.
Basically just trying to in these low people,
which I, you, Hate it admit this, but
I did do it. Was to say the
air shirt on the West Coast might actually

(40:50):
be Scotland's Gulf Coast.
And I feel, oh, no. No. Can't see
that Oh, no. I don't outrageous. Oh, no.
No. No. No. We East Coast are much
better than the west coast No No. But
on the 1 hand, they're probably Right? But...
No 1... No 1 else the highlander anything.
Hey, well, I mean, I I personally think
that the Gulf and the Highlands is the
most underrated in the country.
And to go, where you could even argue
you the bit where I live in 5,

(41:12):
You've got S and you get king's barnes
and Dan barney and Leaving and London Links
all and El and Trail,
that's pretty good as well. So, I mean,
I think basically East Logan go in first
and said, we're Scotland's Gulf Coast. And we...
Then they kind of trademark marked that, and
that was it. No 1 else can really
argue with them. But I think there's a
plenty to enjoy elsewhere where and in inertia,

(41:34):
obviously, you mentioned true, of course, You've get
crest week there. You've all the tri municipal
golf courses as well, other great courses there,
like Western gale and Donald Lengths.
Further so, if you get turmeric, but I
don't mention that so much these days Afraid,
but
get into that. But elsewhere you've got
you, some fantastic courses there too. So I

(41:55):
think Scotland has several different golf course. And
you're gonna...
On your trip 1 by playing muscle bra
and 2 by going to the open, you're
gonna touch both of them I think.
I I love that's the most scottish argument.
I'd... That's happen in perpetuity because no one's
ever going to win it. No. Of course,
no. No. No. You you mentioned these Lot,
and 1 of the things, I know Go

(42:15):
has
what... 1 of the things I'm learning about.
Donald Go has a kid's course that Yeah.
Adults are not allowed on it unless the
child is present.
And I've been looking and in the City
of En edinburgh, there is a small
course,
kind of a junior course,
not far from the city center. I I
need to learn more about it. So that's

(42:36):
1 of the things I'm looking forward if
I can... If I'm allowed,
if the if she who must be obeyed
allows,
brief diversion,
because we're not staying far from it. I
would like to go over and see that.
I think it's a little 1 that Tom
Coin might have mentioned in his book. I
don't know if you're familiar with his his,
a course called Scotland word. Yes.

(42:59):
But there's a a small,
you know, small golfing center,
basically for junior or maybe adults. I don't
know I don't know what... Do you have
any familiarity with with those... I'm not I'm
not too sure I noah. Okay. Yeah. Even
even you're no educating me about Edinburgh, fascinating
now the working out. It's good. I'm have
good back and forth for. And I'm learning
things as well.

(43:19):
As a trip as a golf trip captain,
I I'm 1 of those over planners. I
don't want to be All. I want... I
only want the surprises to be pleasant. So
it's like 1 of those.
So, yes. And, again, not having my golf
clubs with me. I'm looking for all the
golf adjacent stuff that I can find.
But but you mentioned that Himalayas earlier, David,

(43:40):
and and I'll have to also mention Himalayas
is because to me,
you know, that is to me the coolest
bit of golf real estate on the planet
because you have this little golf course that's
the most amazing bit of land
So b laid out, and it's open to
everybody. Well you've played golf before or not,
and you can go down there any day

(44:01):
the week and you'll see people from toddlers
to elderly people all playing together and quite
literally feet away
from what might be the most famous golf
of course on the planet.
And think that is a wonderful thing. It
is. And Karen, that that is what is
being reproduced the fastest here. All of the
big golf resorts, none of them are being

(44:22):
created now without something like that. Band Dune,
you know, they have these huge putting courses
that are all basically copies of the himalayas,
you know, even
Sweden's Cove, which is the the, you know,
America's most popular darling little mine hole golf
course in Rural Tennessee. Its practice green is
basically a himalayas course,

(44:43):
where you can... And as someone who goes
on a lot of golf trips and with
buddies,
you know, spending that last hour or 2
hours of daylight. I I never get bored.
You know, you stand on 1 side and
you pick a new target, and as long
as you don't hit anybody in the ankle,
You know, I can spend hours doing it
because
for me, it's... It it really speaks to

(45:04):
how I like golf. I want to just...
Once the ball gets on the ground, that's
when the game, the sport golf really gets
fun.
And that that little Himalayas course. I mean,
that's the the ground 0 for what has
become a huge part of the movement to
keep people out here, you know, the resorts
are doing it to keep people on ground
to sell them more
drinks to, you know, to just to keep

(45:25):
them on property.
Yeah. But my god is it fun just
to sit down. Again, with my kids. I
can go with my wife. She hasn't swung
a golf club in 10 or 12 years,
but she knows how to putt a ball.
We can have little, you know, little family
competitions and and it is I'm so
I almost hit a ball onto the Himalayas
when I played the old course.

(45:46):
And it's my favorite old course story. So
I may have bored you with this before.
I'll give you the short version. But we're
have we have a great round going.
And we're coming in. We come to the
road hole, and
our fourth. We we were at... We had
a fourth added to our 3 ball, which
was fine. Mh. Nice another american. Nice enough
guy. He was convinced he was gonna hook

(46:06):
the ball all day. So he's 1 of
those that had a had his club face
wide open and and took this crazy swing.
He didn't hit 1 left all day. And
on the road hold with with the jig
right in front of him, he was extra
concerned that he was just gonna hook 1
around it. So he takes a gigantic swing
and hits 1 over the hotel.
Like, even the 1 of the cat in

(46:27):
the group goes. Fuck, me, that's in the
car park. Because you hit it so far
right. And then I had to hit next.
Like... So that's my visual... That I've just
seen.
I hit 1 so far left. I'm about
a foot from being on the new course
that if I had had caught a sprinkler
head or something I might have gotten all
the way to the himalayas. You know, so
far left that my cad, I can see

(46:48):
him kind of scrambling. He's got his yard
book, and he has no idea what to
do, because no one's never in his life
Did he imagine someone was gonna be all
the way, you know, basically playing from over
there. III
asked him if I, if you want me
to shoot it, I had my laser with
me. And without missing a beat because if
you wouldn't mind Dave because he just did
not have time. For that. But seeing that
Him, it was closed when we were there
because it was late October and never getting

(47:09):
frost.
Mh.
There. But that was the 1 thing... 1
of the many things that I've wanted to
get back to San Andres 4. So if
we can get up there, Moon and Reserve,
a himalayas time and it'll probably be the
highlight of the trip because we'll I'll be
playing, you know a little bit absolutely. Yeah.
Actually actually, on that note, 1
horror story for me on that. Was, I
I went down 1 evening. Once summer's evening,

(47:31):
impulsive on my own, and went onto to
the first tea in the old, and it
was... At the last t time. There's no
1 else there. 06:30 in the evening. Is
fantastic. When play the old course by myself.
How cool is this? Oh, man. Last person
to know.
Bolt on the fairway, not a great t
shirt quite far back. Come, okay. Down to
the fairway. Hit 1 ball, slice it away
right onto the Himalayas.

(47:53):
Pose here. K? Hold down again. Do exactly
the same thing again.
2 balls in the himalayas. Hold done again.
3 times
on the Himalayas. An amazing thing was, these
bulls were open 5 yards of each other
on the Himalayas. It was pinpoint accuracy. If
I was actually should throw a blanket over
them. Yeah. Exactly. The honestly, sure of avi

(48:13):
vin couldn't do this. You know, if I
intended to do it it'd be absolute genius,
but no, there we go. So my my
dream round on my own, the old course
ended
end on the first hole an absolute disaster.
But, of course, I didn't keep score after
that and just playing that a great evening.
But, yeah, So people come to me with,
like disaster stories about the old course. I've
got them all covered. I can beat anybody

(48:34):
on that because I've done everything you can
possibly do. I've missed it left. Missed it
right. I top the ball with the ball
on at first the I've and everything. So,
you know, even when I played the old
course in reverse
a few weeks ago for the first time,
I still made a disaster on that first
toll. Every time player. Know. I thought that
time Ripped, we're going to the seventeenth hole
this time get towards 17 green.

(48:56):
Nice t shot,
ball over the burn, short of the green.
But also okay. I'll take that. Usually I'm
in the burn with my approach shop. What
do I do, I'd pop the ball over
the green onto the road makes 6. So
every time play that first hole in whatever
direction it's a un mitigated disaster. It is
an absolute fact dave that I've got a

(49:17):
better
scoring average
on the road hole than what I do
in the first totally the old course. And
that just sounds outrageous, but that is an
absolute fact because I make 6s and sevens
every single template. It's crazy.
Are you just ave avert to stretching or
is this a jitter
situation? Like
just well... I mean, I mean, I mean,
I I can't possibly comment on my lack

(49:38):
of a flat.
That is undoubtedly true,
and there's probably a factor that I refuse
to accept, but it... It's probably true.
I think a lot of it is nerves,
general poor technique, not warming up, not getting
ready to go
and just
more or less being fairly hopeless at golf.

(49:59):
So all these things come together.
And make for,
usual feast of disasters in the old course,
but I still enjoy every time. Your book
on how not to play the old course
is gonna be fabulous. I yeah have to
read it. That... That's what I see the
people just do the opposite. So what I'm
doing. You just Don't copy me, do the
opposite of it. I mean, even actually, you

(50:20):
mentioned that going way left
towards the new course. I was playing the
old last year, it was.
Off the the t, I went so far
left.
I was almost in the the Length club
house. It was ridiculous. Almost behind the first
t of the new.
I made 5 from there. Instead boy.
So I still find the way that, I'm
like a really bad version of Jordan Space.

(50:42):
That appears to be my golfing kind of
Dna, I think. I love it. I... I've
thoroughly enjoyed your write up of getting to
play the the golf course background. 1 of
the things I did wanna bring up was
Yep. If you had any
sort of impression, you know, the the golf
course I played yesterday
is a core golf course. It's not a
link out and back, but it's
wide open enough with, you know, only trees

(51:04):
really around the perimeter and a couple of
stands here and there that, you know, we
stood on 1 t box and we invented
8 holes. In various directions very quickly. It's
like, 1 of those that would be fun.
What surprised you the most going maybe back
around the old course in the clockwise
rotation because that... You know, anyone that's been
there, I was told by many people, you

(51:25):
know, when I when I play the old
course, make sure when you're on the green
to stop and look back, look back at
the fairway way you've just played and you're
gonna be amazed at what you find.
So tell me a little bit about actually
getting into play,
walking that clockwise loop at at the old.
Well, it was really cool. The first time
I'd ever done it, of what to do
it for years. And they made it more

(51:45):
accessible this year, thankfully more days available for
it, so I got a chance to get
in on the ballot, and that was glad
to do so.
And obviously, I've walked the golf course many
times, quite often then a clockwise direction. So
a lot of it felt weirdly familiar to
me. Where and a lot of it made
perfect sense. Some of the holes you played...
Okay. This is logical. We're going here instead

(52:07):
of here. And
just all kind of fit together. Now I
do think the golf course in the the
other routing the... Well, the... 1 we know
today, the anti clockwise layout is superior
to the reverse layer. I think that's probably
why it's been used now for hundred and
50 years mostly
because it is, I think it is superior.
When you're not... We don't... You don't play

(52:27):
holes
like 11 and 14 and 17, especially. You
kinda miss out on something, I think. But
playing the golf of course in the opposite
way, was fascinating, and some of the holes,
I say we're completely logical and they're are
very good. I mean, the part 5 the
fifth we are playing over the fairway down
towards what is a normal fifth green was

(52:47):
really interesting.
And as you'll know how played the course.
When you play the 12 hole
conventionally. You're standing on that tea, looking down
the hill, and the fairway is right there.
You think okay? It's good. I'll stand up
here. Cut my t shirt down the middle.
Thank you very much. And you get there
and realize, oh, no was bunker everywhere. I
couldn't see them. And that's right. The thing.
But you play it the other way around

(53:08):
going up the hill. You're standing on that
tee and you can see all the bunker.
I'm just literally not not seeing them or
seeing them.
Well, yeah. Well, if the challenge is kind
of the same. So you be basically have
to try and almost miss the ferry left
or right, unless you're really pinpoint accurate.
But it's a different visual challenge, where, I
guess, the twelfth normally is a figure is

(53:29):
a kind of the a challenge of the
unexpected
the figure of the unknown whereas on the
way around,
visually, you're... So you can see it all.
And I know this is a blind shots
podcast.
So playing the the 12 normally, okay. I
can't see anything, but that's once you've played
at once, you know what's there and that's
the challenge.
But here, you could see it all and
that had its own obviously,

(53:49):
difficulties itself. But and that was really fun
because you realize
these bunker are are facing the wrong way
from what you normally play. And all all
makes perfect sense. Now, of course, the 1
caveat about it was in my mind, I
think I wrote this in piece was, the
golf course isn't conditioned to be played in
the reverse layer anymore. So but what I

(54:10):
mean by that is, So when you're playing
off that the course normally, you t off
a second or the third or the fourth,
etcetera. You're more or less hitting over, maybe
a hundred yards of rough,
which is fine.
Nothing have no wrong with that. But when
you coming back the way playing towards those
greens from the other direction, You have to
hit over the rough to get to the

(54:30):
green. And as you'll know, Dave, because you've
played here, you wanna play low running shot
on the ground. All of a sudden, you
can't You do that. Yeah Because of the
way the course is conditioned though. So that's
the 1 negative of it. But it absolutely,
you know, I I love the golf course
and I learn something you knew every single
time I play it because you realize it's

(54:50):
1 of the most adaptable golf courses on
the planet because
look 1 day to the next, the pin
position that the flag can be cut 100
yards away from 1 day to the next.
Therefore, you're playing a completely different golf hole.
You've throw the changing wind directions even more
so and play the golf course in the
other direction as well and how logical

(55:11):
much of it was. The were places where
you're playing, like, for example, you're playing off
the 12 t playing over the eleventh green
down to the tenth green, which is, of
course, in a day of health and safety
regulations is a total disaster. Right. Where the
with the footprint, you know, on that vein,
you know, here,
cat foot paths,
you know, unfortunately, are usually just wherever they're

(55:32):
moan.
You know, 1 of the nice things about
links golf is that
everybody walks and so the foot paths are
pretty well worn and they make sense because
it's the shortest distance. Were they in the
wrong place like logistically?
That, you know, the turn where you kind
of go... You're you're done going out and
you make the turn home. Yeah. Yeah. I
can see how that, you know, on the
best of days, that's a air traffic control

(55:52):
It is. Yeah. Concern at the old course.
So
how chaotic was that scene. And well, well,
the moving around the course.
Yeah, we have what the had maybe half
a dozen course marshals out there who would
literally say to you. Stop? That you guys
hit?
You guys go, you guys wait. You guys...
You guys walk over there and they're this

(56:13):
all day.
So... Yeah. I mean, you can see why
they can't really do it anymore. On a
regular basis.
But I think to play the course that
way, it made you appreciate what a unique
piece of land that is and how, you
know, it's fact the can't the way the
old course developed from, you know, the sixteenth
century
to now...
As I say that there's no particular architect

(56:36):
designed that, it just sort of evolves with
time and they made little tweaks here there.
Lot of changes where Made in the 18
fifties, by it was Dave Anderson, who was
a green keeper then and then famously old
tom Morris so of course, kind of the
the kind of... It's as close to Golf
has to a father figure.
They made sizable changes to it. But It's
kinda just evolve with time, but what's fascinating

(56:57):
to me about is is how sophisticated much
of it is as well. The understood risk
reward and bunker placements. Now an idea all,
well, you can take the ball more aggressively
off the tea on this line, and you'll
get the easier shot in, but you can
play it safe off go left usually on
the old course.
Easier t shot, but you always have a
more difficult second shot, and that

(57:19):
sophistication is amazing to me, and this sort
of shows how
innovative these guys must have been back in
the day to. Had a bit of land
and that's what they did buffer. And I
think that's just fantastic and they laid the
template for your modern golf course design,
whether it be the likes of Ken and
court right through to the guys around today.
They're all in somewhere way another influenced by

(57:41):
the old course either paying a h homage
to it. Or kind of reacting against it.
But it's kind of the the genesis of
so much of that. And that's why it's
it's kind of timeless in that respect, and
the more times you play it. The more
you can see these nuances and the the
different shots you can play, and there's shots
you'd play on that golf, of course. But
you're never gonna play anywhere else.

(58:03):
And that's the thing that stands out to
me most of all. So, yeah, playing the
the course in river, was a treat, and
it just further heighten my kind of appreciation
for what it represents.
That's fantastic.
I I could go on with that conversation
all day. So I wanna Okay. I wanna
switch gears.
Yes what that that'll be episode 3. Yeah.

(58:24):
I I wanna get us out a little
over our skis on things.
I don't talk a lot of pro golf
here. Mainly because I don't care about Pro
golf all that much.
It's no feel that way I think. You
I... Well, you know, we are in such
a weird time. I I want to get...
I just... You know, for listeners that may
not pay attention to to pro golf more
than I have. There has been quite a

(58:46):
sc in the Men's game. Mh. You know,
the the
a competitor has come in and started a
rival golf league and it has poached several
of the stars, the biggest stars.
And so the the Pga tour and the
l tour are kind of at who, but
not really, and they all still play the
majors together and, you know, having just done
the masters, you know, you you kinda see...

(59:07):
And there are ardent fans within the golf
space of both. But, you know, this is
this rival golf league is funded by the
public... Largely, the public investment fund of Saudi
Arabia,
which
in America has its own connotation. It yep.
May not be out and out racism,
but, you know, some people are revolt by
it. But

(59:28):
you know, we do have a They troubled
history with the Middle East of the last
25 oh 50 years, you know, since the
Iranian revolution,
09:11,
you know, with the the terrorist attacks,
you know, right now that has all been
re inflamed with the
October seventh Massacre in Israel,
the the, you know, the ongoing conflict in

(59:50):
Gaza. So the idea and, you know, the
Jamal K,
killing that, you know, that has
everybody that's ever touched a keyboard or pen
to paper in the the news business,
was, you know, horrified by that in America,
because he was working as a a Saudi
citizen working for the the Washington post at
the time. So

(01:00:11):
there are
people have sides and divided in their tribes
like they always do, but it it has
been a particular fire point in the Us
and among Us golf fans. I say all
of that just to
to say you've been dealing with this in
in the Uk in football. For better part
of a generation. People have been foreign wealthy,

(01:00:33):
foreign people and now even people that are
government or government adjacent have been buying your
football clubs kind of as trophy purchases and
running them. So talk to me a little
bit about
how professional golf sort of the state of
professional golf fandom is
in in the Uk because that's AII

(01:00:53):
imagine. I like to imagine you're probably thinking
of it differently, but maybe not, you know,
Newcastle had a famous Newcastle football club at
a famous episode recently when I I don't
remember who was gonna buy, but they were
like, yeah hell, yes. Great. New money. Now
we can compete. We can, you know, purchase
better players and we can be, you know,
source of the money be damned.

(01:01:13):
So with that long kind of runway,
what is how is professional golf being viewed.
If it's even... If people even really care
outside of, you know, the open?
I think people have to recognize. And I
think this is the case everywhere is that
Pro golf is a niche within a niche.
People who people who plague golf

(01:01:34):
far exceeds those who actually watch it on
television or other means.
I mean, I think there's something maybe but
maybe there's 30000000 golfers in the United States.
But how many of them will actually watch
the Pga for a week to week, maybe
2000000 at most? Not that not that many
by recent ratings. Yeah. I, indeed, they're they're
declining, of course. That's a big thing, Big
topic of late. So it's a very niche

(01:01:56):
sport within a niche. And that is absolutely
the same case here in the Uk. And
the thing in the Uk is, you know,
our professional golf is just on... Sky sports,
which is a subscription channel. It's not on
regular network television.
So if you you if you don't have
these subscription services,
you can't
seek golf at all on television

(01:02:16):
anymore. In the Uk, which is a real
problem. Even the open is behind the pay
wall as it were,
the masters is exactly the same thing.
So we're to go to decline the viewership
organically by restricting those who can actually see
it, I think.
And what's happened in the past couple of
years with the emergence of Live
and backed by the Saudi public investment on

(01:02:37):
which brings with a a lot of connotation
with. And met very many of the same
ones that you raised there in America, people
are troubled by the idea of a government
buying into a sport and a government that
has a very checkered
record when it comes to human rights and
various other issues that still go
to this day.
And that

(01:02:57):
unnatural people find that very off putting. And
they also find the vast sums of money,
quite this discouraging as well, where guys are
getting literally handed hundreds of millions of dollars
to sign for live, and they pay, they
play for huge purses,
far exceed any event in golf,
and nobody watches.
And, of course, the Pga is racked to

(01:03:19):
this by increasing
processes themselves, offering more money, looking for investment
from various other
organizations in America too.
And what you have is kind of absurd
contradiction where Golf and Tv is is at
the moment, it seems to be as less
popular than has done maybe ever, something for
a long time, but yet, all the players

(01:03:39):
are earning more money never before. So it
seems to completely not make any sense.
But you mentioned the the newcastle united football.
So They're owned by saudi public investment fund
now. And the Chairman of Newcastle united is
the of love Golf. Y Or Ram Rama.
Who was a chairman of the Saudi Public
investment fund. So the Saudi and various various

(01:04:02):
other middle eastern nations up now invested in
sport,
because they're looking for ways to diversify the
economy away from obviously the oil that really
is prop them up now for decades looking
to the future And that gives them off
a huge amount of might invest and they
invest in entertainment whether it be Disney,
other things like that.
Sport,

(01:04:22):
whether it be you... Let's say the the
football teams in in England,
R Indeed in Europe,
there's Paris Saint germ german man in Paris,
they're owned by the tar E.
So you have things like that. And even
Manchester united, the Qatar qatar has tried to
buy into them,
last year, and Manchester City, they're owned by,
Abu dhabi. So you have these nation stakes

(01:04:44):
a huge investment funds moved
pouring money into sport. We're seeing it now
in tennis.
We've had it boxing. We've had it a
formula 1,
and this is kind of becoming a not
just a golf issue, but a sports issue,
but it's funny because it seems to of
caused more of a star in the gulf
world than has other ones,

(01:05:05):
I think that might be because maybe Golf
is kind of conservative
in its own kind of mindset maybe, you
know, people in are inherently more conservative hate
change.
Aren't a great fan of
outside things mess, disrupting things, basically.
But at at from from my perspective, I
I I'm not a fan of at all

(01:05:25):
in terms of what it represents.
I'm an, I think it's diluted
professional golf. All levels.
It's made so many players frankly un unlike,
which is never a good sign for any
sport where people can It's crazy
crazy business model by shrink your audiences
access to the product and making your product

(01:05:45):
more un likable. I don't beg garage to
anybody making more money. Okay. Great. Of course,
but shut the hell up about it. Do
that be greedy private. Don't be greedy. Public.
That Yeah. Just that Yeah. I don't... You
know, they have mer, the little bit of
Pro golf that I will have on when
I need an nap. They have stopped talking
about the size of the purse, You know,
that on the Pga tour side on the
American tour side. Yeah. They got into this

(01:06:07):
vicious cycle, I guess, they're talking trying to
compete by saying, thinking they could out money
the money of the the public investment tour
in every day Was like, oh, this this
put cost this guy by finishing tied for
seventh instead of Solo third. It cost... And
it was just money. My I don't care
what the Fedex cup is worth that has
never motivated me to walk harder or care

(01:06:28):
more. Of course. And, like, it just seemed
this weird it it... This, yeah, this weird
spiral that I just couldn't
can't deal with as a golfing. So I
watch the majors,
you know, I watch the ryder cup, although
the the broadcast on our side. If I
can find a pirate at European feed, I
will watch that because the American broadcast of
the ryder cup is just a 1 long

(01:06:50):
commercial with little golf breaks now and then,
and it is
it is a atrocious view and.
The in that same vein. So that's... The
the men's pro golf game has just been
maul and and
is terrible. The... Eventually, there's got to be
an end, and it it will come out
on the other side. May look very different.
Who knows. Maybe they'll I'll go back to.

(01:07:11):
Question, Dave.
Will people come back and watch after all
of this. That's a the unknown question because
people when you're...
People watch things out of habit, They'll cheer
them because they always watched the golf on
a Sunday.
So stop watching the golf on Sunday and
they've done other things of their life, boy
they actually go back and watch. All these
guys are back together and, especially they don't
really care about them anymore. And and that's

(01:07:33):
a real problem. I I almost think that
the pro golf game in the men's side
is is broken and I just don't really
see it coming back to what it was
before because I think that the product's been
damage to its core,
even if they find the resolution they'll come
back together and all the top players play
together and so on.
I just think there's a lot of will
be tainted. And I just... I just wonder

(01:07:55):
if we'll ever see
enthusiasm for watching Gulf come come back like
it was when tiger was that it's peak.
And I just don't think we have that
transcend bigger anymore, and therefore, I think people
will just find other things to do with
their time, hopefully, actually playing golf.
Yes. There are are many more entertainment options.
Maybe they'll go super. They go all the

(01:08:16):
way back that it'll be the majors.
And then it will be guys playing money
matches at exclusive clubs with Uber wealthy men
standing around, Yeah. Betting on each shot like
they did and in young, Tom's day. Yes
and indeed. You no. It and it will
be... The niche will be even smaller.
The the corollary, kind of the other side
of that coin
And I I wanna get to the the

(01:08:37):
perspective from your side.
In America, right now, women's sports are having
a moment. We had a a very
There's a a young lady that was a
college basketball player that just her career, and
she kind of captivated the imagination.
Was of, you know, very talented. She's gonna
start her professional career has committed to play

(01:08:57):
in the the W nba, which will be
a shot in the arm for that sake.
Nation.
You know, on the Nellie Cord yesterday, just
won her fifth consecutive tournament. I mean, she's
on like the byron, Nelson plan of Adoption
minutes right now is on just a an
unbelievable heater. Right?
But,
you know, the... I'm minutes the women's golf
game on the Lp fpga side has been

(01:09:19):
blessed recently to go play
some iconic venues. Which always help tell the
story. You know, they're playing places that used
to host men's Us opens, and they're they're
playing,
and they've gotten in the the... On... The
the women's open championship. The Win British open.
They have started to crack the code on
some of the older big navy clubs. You
know, the 1 at Ka was absolute can't

(01:09:39):
turn off the Tv watching. Mh. Yeah
And I'm just curious. So I don't know
if that is a uniquely
American thing. Part of it, I think is,
we are... From our side, in in golf,
specifically. We are
we have been blessed with some good American
golf talent. I don't know if it's the
the women's amateur at Augusta. You know, it

(01:10:01):
used to be that
the the stars on the Lp fpga were
all imported. You had the the kind of
Korean revolution and then you had a big
Latin America influences Mexico South America.
And even some in Europe, you had
especially with the
the Scandinavian countries. You know, And and so
people, the the American pet, those those women

(01:10:22):
would come over and play professionally very young
ages, and the American women would kind of
go through the... With with the exception of
the superstars would go through... So kind of
the American version of the Academy system. They
would go to college,
but they would be older they'd be in
their early twenties by the time they got
done unplanned college golf, and they very few
of those people could reach superstar status. You

(01:10:43):
know, they they were going up against women
that have been planned professionally for 10 years
at that point by the time they're ready
to play. Now that has changed a little
bit.
We are producing more,
I guess, kind of zealous we're producing more
American stars
it feels like there's real momentum around women's
golf, like the... Even from the business community

(01:11:03):
seen as the next investment opportunity,
kind of the
completely, the the quintessential undervalued asset because the
broad... It doesn't have good spots in the
broadcast. It's been slow to innovate. It's ripe
for a lot of things to blossom.
Are you
from the European side where should be Led
or just kind of locally to the Uk?

(01:11:24):
Are is the women's golf game or women's
sport going through a a similar phase or
is it just a totally different environment over
there? Kind I think it is going through
a similar phase, but I think at a
lower level. I think that's fair to say
because obviously, most of the the top. British
and European players, they go and play in
United States on the Lp tour. So if

(01:11:45):
we don't have
access to see the top players
play in the Uk and Europe very often.
You know the Still exists, but it's a
very diminished
circuit these days.
Very much a feeder tour for the Lp
rpg in every every respect of the word.
So we will have the same thing there.
I think it's we did have potentially some

(01:12:05):
emerging stars like Charlie Hull and Georgia Hall
won, the British opened a number of years
ago hasn't quite fault that success up. And
I think that's really important because obviously, in
women's golf. It's an even smaller niche within
that niche. This tiny of professional golf. It's
right there. But for to break out of
that, you have to have a super superstar.
And I think America has that now in

(01:12:27):
Nellie cord potentially. Where people are drawn by
when they see 1 of their own do
well. It's that kind of Par
national absolutely. People love to see it. They
they can respect a great foreign talent. But
they don't quite engage with from the same
way. But nellie doing really well and on
the Lp is huge because she can be
at 1 figure that stands above the rest

(01:12:47):
because used to have obviously,
Alex Thompson could've be in that figure. Never
quite...
Moved on that. Right. First success you had.
Michelle We obviously had a unbelievable young career
didn't really
achieve much until she won the Us open,
and then after that, a career can tailed
away, but she could have been that figure.
Never quite became that figure.

(01:13:08):
Nelly can be that figure. And that can
be a real transformative thing for the Lp
fpga and women's golf. Because right now,
if you want to invest in Golf, you
know, the price invest and men's professional goal,
as we've just discussed, is now really high
because the money is outrageous.
And at diminishing returns at that as well.
Whereas like you say, there's kind of potential

(01:13:30):
there in the women's game to try and
grow it and and, you know, and get
visibility for your your products and your in
your your partners and so on. There's definitely
room there for improvement.
But for the... On the sport and on
this side of the pond.
We're seeing an improvement here as well, We're
obviously, we had a few years ago we
had the Emma ride Canada from Britain winning

(01:13:51):
tennis.
And she the Us open. Which is obviously
a huge huge venues. Hasn't quite followed up
though, but it a big deal at the
time. And that kinda happened around the same
time as other women start to achieve things,
The the English national women's football team, they
won the European championship and reached the World
Cup final.
And now we're seeing English women's football or

(01:14:12):
soccer,
flourishing. They have big crowds now. We're seeing
crowds of 40 50000 seeing some of the
gains down in England. And that was unrecognizable
from just a few years ago, would possible
a decade ago. To that point, I'm a
spur fan and on their social media. Know,
they push out their women's academy teams.
Everybody every bit gets as... Seems to get

(01:14:33):
as much airtime as, they're under 21. You
know, the big club is always gonna be
the big club, You know, plant... But they're,
you know, kind of that foundational support. Like,
it's it's not doesn't seem like it's treated
as justin an afterthought,
which is which is interesting. That is now
what it was. Very recently. Yeah. Absolutely. That's
definitely a changing folk. It's funny You mentioned

(01:14:54):
to though because I mentioned obviously, Golf course
in London being closed down by the council.
1 course it was closed down a couple
of years ago. Because is now bought over
by To them, and they want to use
that space to create a women's football academy,
actually. So that's... So they get all types
they some way or another.
So how it does. Yeah. So so yeah
that... That's a changing focus. So I do

(01:15:15):
think that that there is
it's so much untapped potential in women's score.
And I I think perceptions have changed, and
that's first thing has to happen. Now it
requires
little bit of vision, and obviously investments
and drive,
and that's a hard formula to try and
find.
I think
people in America are are much better marketing

(01:15:37):
or sports than we are over here for
the most part, especially niche sports.
And that'll be the next challenge. But you
mentioned obviously, the the women's British open that's
coming here to the old course in August
this year, that'll will be a big as
well. That's a big deal. By the way.
The the the women... You know, I I
mentioned that the women are now accessing kind
of our classic championship courses. By here. Yeah.

(01:15:59):
That has very much not been the k...
My understanding that has not been the case
in Scotland
to this point that that's a relatively recent
phenomenon where the. The women get to play
that the championship links courses.
Well, in the last 5, 6 years, we've
they've been to trim for the first time.
They went to car for the first time.
They went to mu field for the first
time that was quite a big deal, obviously

(01:16:19):
with that club Yes. History. When it comes
to women and members and so on, and
And narrow were back at the old course
for the third time. The first time was
2007
when Arena will show 1, then they were
back in 20 13 in Stacy Lewis 1,
and and and obviously, now this year. That's
a big deal because as we all know,
golf fans, they'll we'll love golf courses. You
people watch the masters because they love Augusta

(01:16:41):
National, You know, that's the big thing. Lost
seeing it. Lost seeing those shots played in
their minds, all the holes they recognize recognized.
That's exactly the same.
These famous chapter venues. So they elevate the
events, and that's something that obviously we've seen
now with the American majors,
and now if the the women's British open
as well, and that is gonna be transformative
and the pressures have gone up to to

(01:17:02):
reflect that and think the interest among the
crowds as well is high,
I'm being at the
the 2017
women's open at King's Barnes, just down the
road from here. And the weather wasn't very
good that week. But the crowds there was
no 1 there watching. It was nobody cared,
and it was really quite sad.
But then you watch
the women's opened the last 2 or 3

(01:17:22):
years. And you mentioned the 1, car in
20 21 that anna a 1.
Had a great crowd at it. Great atmosphere.
Families now go and watch this. You mentioned
going to an event in Cincinnati with your
kids.
It's much more relaxed, family friendly, not quite
hustle and bustle. There isn't a big
hospitality crowd here and this there for a

(01:17:42):
good time. It's very different,
and and that's a huge thing. So I
think there's a lot of encouragement there,
and I'm looking forward to a great event
in August. Women's open here. And I think
there'll be another step that direct direction, but
1 little touch on this it's something out,
actually saw yesterday. So the Ross acts will
hotel just next to the old course, may

(01:18:03):
built an extension there a couple years ago.
The other thing where the the cricket, like
a Hollywood walk of fame basically for the
champions who have 1 here on the ground,
They put the names onto the pavement.
Which is really quite cool, but not just
the open champions, also the women's open champions
here. So you also had... You have Oc
c. You have Stacy Lewis on there amongst

(01:18:24):
tiger school and Jack Nicholas.
And there's there's space they are waiting for
this year's champion to go on it. And
I think even little things like that to
show you that the perception is changing, and
people now don't really see men's and women's
sports being so desperate disparate. And I see
him really is being the same thing, and
that's long over Overdue.

(01:18:44):
That's that's phenomenal. You know, I I tell
people that sometimes they wonder why I follow...
The women's game so much, And it's not
because they play a more relatable game. They
don't. I I couldn't... They certainly don't that
they... There's there's no scratch american, you know,
scratch golfer that's going out and beating a
women's professional, but it's... They they are playing
at places that seem more relatable. Yeah. And,

(01:19:05):
you know, I've got 2 little boys
but for the flip of a, you know,
genetic coin. I could have 2 daughters, and
I would want them to be, you know,
but I I don't wanna have the conversation
to explain, well, you can't do that, because...
But your girl that doesn't... You know, that
that's not part of it anymore. Yeah. You
even mentioned with the the
the Murphy honorable company out, their,

(01:19:26):
being back in the Rnas is good graces
after allowing women to become full members like
that whole thing. It just...
In in the year of our Lord 2024.
That just seems like an absurd conversation because.
Oh, Karen, I've taken more of your time
than I anticipated, but this was 20 it
was long overdue. Thank you so much for
making This. Pleasure. Yes.
I mean, I came in today, David, not

(01:19:48):
knowing where the conversation would lead us to
and we've we covered certainly quite a few
topics...
That's the the the trick of the blind
shots podcast. We just never know it's yeah.

(01:20:08):
Summer weather. You know, we... I luck out
a much trip to Scotland. It rained, it
rained or snowed on us for exactly 3
holes in a week's worth of golf. So
it was fabulous.
You know, you guys are famous for getting
all 4 seasons in the course of the
day over there. I'm planning on
is it
that for the open,

(01:20:30):
is there any way to really plan for
that? I'm planning on maybe bringing Gore pants
for everybody.
Just to keep them like, you know, the
the shoes probably won't make the trip home,
whatever we wear there... If if there's, you
know, bad weather rain, But is there
any words of wisdom or conventional wisdom on...
Or do you just go and just plan
to get soaked and it's part of the

(01:20:51):
experience? I think ultimately, you hope for the
best, but you expect the worst And I
think that's always the way to it. Prepare
for everything, especially, I when, given them the
weather we've had here, as I mentioned in
the podcast
since last summer really, it's been horrendous consistently,
all across the Uk. So we are due
a decent summer, we hope.
Okay. I I'll say that the best time

(01:21:12):
of year for weather consistently here tends to
be
sort of late May, June. That tends to
do the best time of year in July.
Eat get more of the storms start coming
in, and that a little more unpredictable. You
can't get lucky, of course as we have
been fruits for the years of times, but
it's less reliable, but
way as right now,
anything could happen. And I'm hoping that maybe

(01:21:33):
just kind of, like, we've suffered enough recently.
So give us some nice weather in July.
That'd would be quite good. I'll try to
bring it with you. I'll try to bring
it with me. Please do. Please do.
Karen his absolute pleasure.
I hope not to wait 2 years before
we do it again No 1 on tat.
And it works so much better this time
with the... The new laptop as well. Yeah.
I mean you got proud of you. Way

(01:21:54):
to wait invest in yourself.
And about to be fair actually as my
boss bought it for me, so I I
didn't invest anything. I just it that you
you waited him out very good. I... Well,
I mean, to fear... He's been... He was
telling me for 2 or 3 years. I'll
bag in our lap I'll buy when I'm
very stubborn. I'm.
I'll get
it works okay.
A little... You a bit of gas it'll

(01:22:14):
kick in the backside in the morning, it
gets going ahead. No. Eventually I gave up
and just I can't work with us anymore.
So give me that machine you promising for
2 years and eventually you did. So you
This is why Now living in the the
modern age so fantastic
Different experience. When we played with aqua with

(01:22:35):
2 guys, I know, and a single goal
for joined us from a Mexico city.
Alejandro was his name, and it was freezing
that day because had the really cold Wind
North sea. Which she's put an unusual win
for here.
And he must have had a about 4
different sn on and hoods up. Yeah. It
was a real culture shot for him. But
as he said, to, you're you're playing the

(01:22:56):
old course. That's pretty cool, but you're playing
in reverse and very few people instead have
done that. So
pink people turned up thinking, oh, I'm gonna
play the road hole and play this that.
And it's that where the hell Am I
going no because he had to go with
Boy didn't expect to play the course. I
always kinda wondered about that. Like it... You,
they did a good job. Even... With their
social media, they promoted it, promoted the lottery

(01:23:16):
to get into it. But I always wondered,
you know, it used to just be 1
day a year, basically or. At least that's
what it presented. Like, Yeah. If you had
you know, you had gotten, you had reserved
a spot. You had paid for the tour,
and you, you know, you had this whole
thing built up, and you been around Andrews
and you've taken in the town and then
you show up to play the old course.
And they say, well, boys were... You come

(01:23:38):
over here to the by the eighteenth green,
you'll be playing down 18 fairway exactly. Like,
the shock of that would be. I don't
know if if it would have been... Made
it more magical or, I guess it just
depend on your your outlook. If you're a
trophy hunter, you'd been
mad and pissed and if you're just a
golfing and be like, well, this is the
coolest thing Ever I get to play it
backwards.
Well, indeed, I I think he was just

(01:23:58):
happy to play it in any direction because
he came through the the singles ballot with
a start up now.
Now I don't have the the queuing up
on the the first... That's... Yeah. That's a
whole other bit of controversy isn't it? You
know what it is, but it's actually worked
out quite well. I think for them, And
I think it's gone quite successful. So far,
and you know, from time talking people actually
work there. They were glad that change was

(01:24:19):
made because it was getting silly what you
call were literally turning up, but 5PM the
night before,
and they're out there all day,
and the staff would turn up the next
day, and there would be urine bottles and
all things lined there,
Yeah. It was a bit messy and
there there's kind a romantic side of that
idea, but there was a reality to it

(01:24:39):
as well. Perhaps it maybe a little bit
of hand,
and it was not getting any better. So
I think would have done it now.
It it it works effectively enough I think,
that's... Yeah. If if that's the way it
was going. Yes. You have to nip that
in the bud. You cannot turn that into
a a homeless en camp. But actually what
was becoming. I can I mean, literally go
out in there, and people would be there
for you know, again, 5PM night before, and

(01:25:02):
it was just crazy? They're there until 6AM
the next morning.
Yeah. And and they're also concerns. I think
they were worried about female golfers as well,
being out there overnight.
Right. I. Some of these guys drink and
things like that when they're out there as
well, and that was kind of putting too.
So it was...
I think it was inevitable that a change
was gonna happen, And I think it has

(01:25:23):
mostly
as far as I know work well so
far with their... The system basically you go
in now, the day before, and you go
into the ipad and you scan your name,
you put your face in it picture of
you as well.
Proof who you are, and then, literally, when
it's drawn at 5PM,
you'll get an instant notification on your phone,

(01:25:44):
whether you've made it or not.
So
it works quite well, but of course, the
the flip side is, it means people used
to think
if I get early enough.
I'm definitely gonna play,
and that obviously isn't there anymore, and that's
Yeah. Lost something there, but there is no
perfect.
Solution for everything is there so. Something had

(01:26:04):
to a give and take somewhere, I think.
Well, Yeah.
Do you see both sides but... And if
it doesn't work, they'll find something new. It
may... You know. Yeah.
Obviously, it wasn't a leap for to do
it because
has been a big part of the story
for a long time.
And, actually, when you think of guys like
the known only low knowing up and the

(01:26:25):
match of this world, it they talk very
much about the singles less on the old
course. As being a big deal and to
promote with it so much over the year.
So can Lose that
identity
was a big leap for them to actually
make. I think it shows just how
much they felt there was actually a need
to address it because there were concerned people
were actually gonna die out there.

(01:26:46):
It's really cold and it was just exposure.
Yeah. It was just getting silly. And I
say, I just like some of the hotels
actually offered packages.
Where they would actually... You stayed there in
want to queue up. They'd bring you blankets
and some foods
so someone's making money out of any end.
So it was that that's really why it

(01:27:08):
changed. They couldn't that... The trust couldn't couldn't
stand someone else making money off of. But
as usual the case is likes trust afraid.
So, yeah.
That... That's kinda how... That's how Links trust
affords their their are 18 marketing executives and
commercial guys and it's like, What do they
actually do? It sells itself. It's the easiest

(01:27:29):
thing in the world to market?
Then what these guys getting paid, you your
know, big salaries for doing nothing. Mean, it's
just... Yeah. And that's kind of... Why there's
a a local kind of a
revolution if you like vivo or revolutions kind
developing that comes to that.
Did affiliation fees go up this year?
Yes.
Okay. I know that's never a a popular

(01:27:50):
thing.
Yeah. So the... So the, well the links
ticket has always been historically really cheap. And
from residents. So you used to pay... I
think it was, 02:50
hundred pounds a year, so 2 fifth pounds
a year, but then last year the year
before it was, they put it up by
100 pounds.
And then pick up again, thanks 3 70

(01:28:11):
this year, which is still
370
pounds for unlimited
play
on the 7 courses is obviously the greatest
deal in history of, you know, deals.
Right. But the the the kind of the
thinking is now is Yeah. You get that
great deal,
but it's really hard to get a t
time. And that's Right where it's kind of

(01:28:31):
causing a little bit of unrest.
For the... I wonder if maybe
maybe
if Pete actually paid more for the links
tickets.
Could then come to an agreement where maybe
okay, you guys pay double what you pay
now, but we reduce
the t times of it available to the
visitors and try and find a greater balance
there. That's maybe gonna be a solution going

(01:28:53):
forward I wonder, but But yeah. I think
they're a bit short The links trust in
this
website appeared and a survey appeared, un sanctions,
and there it got,
promotion in the local newspapers as well. So
Yeah. That... They've got a fire to put
out effect potentially.
Not the first time because it... They have
a habit of a ant

(01:29:15):
people.
And not that was popular people in this
time. Afraid the links trust.
I would... I I've heard that.
I've heard that that that's even made its
way to the American prep us a little
bit. And the trouble is with... Like any
organization when you have, our revolving door of
executives that come in, and they want to
say, look at us... Just we've raised revenue

(01:29:35):
by this amount with me this profit here
and then they move on somewhere else.
But they can lose the the core what
it was once about, which was there for
the local people and everyone else can play
cheaper rate,
Courses has more than doubled in price to
play in the last 10 years.
Yeah. So it's things like that that people

(01:29:56):
think you what? It's not really what it
should be Get Yes. You can get away
with it, and yes, it's... That's the market
is now dictating, but
maybe as this kind of cradle of the
game,
you should be above that sort of thing.
But as I say, money tends to talk
and afraid that definitely

(01:30:21):
Hey. Thanks for stopping by for this episode
of the Blind shots podcast.
I hadn't and had a hard out due
to a previous commitments right after this interview.
I assure you. Karen and I would've have
gone on for another hour or 2 without
missing a beat. I hope you enjoyed what
you heard here today. I don't know I
feel better about my trip after re listening
to this episode, And I hope you were
at least marginally entertained as well. If you

(01:30:42):
didn't enjoy this episode. I'm sorry. But I'll
try to do better next time.
Until then,
remember to sit up straight, drink lots of
water and as always. When you have the
choice do decide to go for it and
take. Dead.

(01:31:03):
Yeah. I been here. This rooms like 50
shades of Beige. I mean, which is the
constant beige and just, you know, it's not
the most inspiring of environments and the and
you may notice over my shoulder.
Actually a door missing there. Well the door
has actually been detached and because a new
carpets laid down. But unfortunately, the door is
wouldn't close with the new carpets.

(01:31:25):
So I'm waiting for someone to come and
basically shed a little bit off the the
just wood plane in right just exciting that.
So it hasn't nothing yet. So this is
why I've got this, yeah, that was strange
with 2 doors hanging off the wall, but,
yeah, It's all. It's all good. We're taking
care of. Very. Structurally sound and safe. Is
yes.
Sorry are you there? You ul?