Speaking with Power and Authenticity: 'I'm Not Yelling' | BLK Girl Reads Ep. 10 - BLK Girl Reads: A Book Club Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Jann (00:00):
Navigate Corporate America fearlessly.
Explore the data and hear theaccounts of black women in
business who face work throughand rise above workplace
discrimination.
This book offers a blueprint forblack women in business to
tackle a toxic work environmentand assert their rightful place
facing obstacles such asimposter syndrome, a structural
racism, I'm not yelling.

(00:22):
Armed you with knowledge andstrategy needed to succeed in
the face of adversity.
Become a strong black leader,and instill positive chain in
the workplace.
Culture, I'm not yelling, isyour guide to understanding and
implementing changes in humanresource management that promote
diversity and inclusion.
Celebrate the significance ofblack history.
Mom define racism in subtle andaort forms, and emerge as a

(00:43):
beacon of strength andresilience.
All right.
Welcome back to Black Girl ReadsEveryone, as normal.
I'm your host Jan.

Joi (00:52):
And I enjoy the party.
Woo.

Jas (00:58):
And I'm Jasmine.
I'm here as a guest today.

Jann (01:02):
Awesome.
And we're here for our 10th andfinal episode of Season one, and
we're going over, I'm notyelling by Elizabeth Liba.

Joi (01:12):
That was

Jann (01:12):
full title is

Joi (01:13):
Sorry.
Yeah.

Jann (01:15):
full title was, I'm Not Yelling, A Black Woman's Guide
to Navigating the Workplace.

Joi (01:20):
Ooh, look at that beautiful book.

Jann (01:24):
I didn't know you had the physical one.
Joy.
Nice.
It's very pretty.

Jas (01:28):
It is.

Joi (01:29):
I love like the line art.

Jann (01:33):
Joy, do you wanna start us off with the rating then?

Joi (01:36):
Okay.
I give it a four and a halfstar.
Like it is a really good book,but there's something that's
missing there for me that makeit a five star and I'll get into
it later.

Jann (01:51):
Okay.
Sounds good.
Jas, do you wanna give us yourrating?

Jas (01:54):
Yeah, I actually have a similar rating of joy.
I give it a four out of fiveand, um, I, I really like
Elizabeth Le, I follow her onLinkedIn, but I agree there was
something missing from it.
But what was there was awesome.

Jann (02:11):
Okay.
We're all pretty similar.
Then I also give this one a fourand a half star out a five.
Um, And it was more so I thinkabout pacing for me, but I
related so much to everythingshe said in this book with
corporate America that yeah, ithad to be a, a very high rating.
So yeah, very similar ratings.
And I'm gonna go ahead and giveour spoiler alert now because

(02:34):
we're gonna jump into the bookdiscussion and, talk about
everything that's in there.
All right.
So let's start off with ourfirst discussion question.
Our first one is actually justabout the genre nonfiction.
Is this a genre that you guysread often?
will you revisit it if not?

Joi (02:53):
This is something like non-fiction.
It's not my go-to, but latelythere has been a lot of
non-fiction books that have comeout that I had interest in, like
Michelle Obama's books, um, whatwas the other one?
Shoot, what was the other book?
That was, uh, the one by, uh,Viola Davis.
I read that one.

(03:13):
Um,

Jann (03:14):
like memoirs

Joi (03:15):
Spare.
So those, I've been kind of likeinto, but normally nonfiction is
like a, especially not in theVice book, so that was
completely new to me.
So, I really enjoyed it.
I don't know if I'm missingsomething like this is a genre
and I've been missing out on, orif this is just a good book.

Jann (03:32):
Yeah.
So you mentioned a lot ofmemoirs and not like self-help
books.
I think this falls more in theself-help categories.
Um, so those are books you wannaget into and we'll definitely
get into some of those in futureseasons, memoirs especially.
But are there any otherself-help books that you've read
or like find notable?

Joi (03:50):
No, not at all.
No.
That's usually never somethingthat if I have to write it and
I'm like, I'll skip it.

Jann (03:57):
So new territory.
I like that.

Joi (03:59):
Yeah.

Jann (04:02):
You wanna give us like your answer?

Jas (04:04):
Yeah.
So, um, j Janice knows thisabout me, but, uh, self-help is
pretty much like my genre thatlike got me into the world of
reading.
Like this is where I spent a lotof my reading time.
So, um, self, like, I love TheSecret, I love, um, atomic

(04:26):
habits.
Anything that helps you likejust become a better person and,
and adjust your, um, mindset tobe a better person.
And what was nice about thisone?
Which is funny because I feellike this genre is led by a lot
of white men typically.
Like, that's usually who, whorun this space, as in I think a

(04:46):
lot of territories.
Right.
Um, but this one was veryspecial because I liked that
she's getting very specific, notblack men, not women of color,
black women specifically,because there are things that we
go through that no one elseexperiences in the workplace.
Um, so yeah, this is a genre Ienjoy and, I enjoy this even

(05:08):
more because it was so specifiedto me.

Jann (05:12):
Okay.
I like that.
I feel like I fall into themiddle of you guys.
Um, and just a quick story,because Jasmine said that she,
um, spends a lot of her time innonfiction, but it was literally
a hundred percent of her time.
Just a quick little side story Ihad to.
Infiltrate Jasmine's book clubthat she used to be in.

(05:37):
She was in a book club foreverand I had been recommending
fiction books to her for yearsand she never took me up on one
of my recommendations becauseshe didn't like fiction.
I had to infiltrate the bookclub and convince them to read a
book that I recommended to her.
Just for her to read it.

Joi (05:51):
Wow.

Jas (05:52):
Oh my God.
Well, if it makes you feel like

Jann (05:57):
Yeah, I was there.
Yeah, she knew, but you know, Ijust kind of had to force her
hand a little.
Right.
Ja.
It was Red Rising and she lovedit.

Jas (06:05):
I did love it.
It's hard going from one to anew genre.
It's not as hard for me anymore.
Um, because now, like if youlook at my book, all the books I
read, I have fantasy here.
I have Thriller there.
I got self-help here, I gotmemoir there.
But when you're first gettingstarted off, I feel like
everyone kind of stays in theirlane.
Like these are the books I like.
I'm gonna keep reading thesebooks.

(06:26):
Um, so that's why I like, I likethe idea of this like a book
club because it helps you expandyour horizons.

Joi (06:31):
That's so interesting because like, so my thing was
when I read books, it's more ofa form of escapism.
I usually like to escape into abook and you know, see a new
world, see like a new life orwhatever.
Right.
And it's probably why I've beenreading memoirs too, like you're
still escaping to someplace, buta self-help book like this makes
you kind of like internalizethat more.

(06:53):
And I'm just wondering, like,it's funny because jazz, you
said that you used it forself-help.
That's why you read.
So it's like we're reading fortwo completely opposite reasons.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
You know,

Jas (07:05):
It is interesting.
It's hard to balance too,because I do like to grow, but
also I've now adapted to theescapism.
That is a book where I'm notreading something, some type of
fiction.
I'm like, oh, life is so boringwith how like I'm a world to
escape to occasionally.
So Yeah.
I get it.

Jann (07:26):
and this is exactly why I say I feel like I fall in
between you guys on nonfictionand fiction.
Um, all of my time really isspent in fiction.
It's fantasy in particular,fantasy and romance.
Um, And I rarely read self-help.
And if I do with something very,like specific like, um, the four
hour work week when I'm sick ofwork or, um, what is the, a rich

(07:49):
dad, poor dad, when I was intoreal estate, uh, I rarely read
memoirs, but I do like them whenI read them.
But yeah, not often, but I do,I, I've read enough that I feel
like I can't say I'm a beginner,so.

Joi (08:01):
Yeah.
Even with you, Jen, you readdifferent genres of books.
For me, it's just amazing whenyou see like there's books for
everybody.
'cause there's thousands andthousands, millions of books.
So it's almost like, I don'tlike to read.
It's like, you haven't tried it.
There's different avenues.
There's different avenues to godown, man.

Jann (08:19):
Yeah, definitely.
What was Roxanne Gay's bookcalled?

Jas (08:25):
Bad feminist.

Jann (08:26):
Bad Feminist.
That was what it was.
I think that's the only otherself-help book I've read that
was like a black female author.

Joi (08:35):
That should be on the list.
I haven't seen that one.
Maybe I read

Jas (08:38):
one wasn't more like a, it wasn't a self-help, but it was
nonfiction.
It was like short stories oressays.

Jann (08:45):
Yeah.

Joi (08:46):
So it wasn't just her, it was different black women coming
in to contribute to the book.

Jas (08:51):
it was all her, but short stories by Roxanne Gay.
And she's interesting toobecause she's queer, overweight
black woman and she talks aboutall these different elements and
like she has different storiesfor different, you know,
elements of who she is, which isvery cool.

Joi (09:11):
hmm.
That's awesome.
I'm like, I'm just astonished bythe amount of books out there
and the genres.
It's for everybody.

Jas (09:19):
Agree.

Jann (09:22):
Yeah.
So back to this book.
Um, our next question.
So the concept of yelling in thebook extends beyond just raising
one's voice.
How did the author broaden thisdefinition?
How did it impact yourperspective on code switching?
That was what this book isreally about, right?
Like, um, her code switching inthe workplace and how she has

(09:43):
developed professionally andpersonally to kinda overcome the
need to code switch in herprofessional life.
So, Any thoughts to that?

Jas (09:54):
All right.
So when I saw the title of thebook, I had a very emotional
reaction to it because, um, forme, you asked what does yelling
mean in this, in this case.
And for me, the first thing Ithought is how people perceive
you, the assumptions people makeabout you before you even say
anything.
Um, so, you know, I, I knowthat's some people, they'll look

(10:16):
at me and assume things, usuallythe worst, that I'm angry or
that I have an attitude or thatI'm not professional.
Um, just, just a lot ofassumptions being made.
So the fact that she made thetitle that I'm not yelling.
It was just like, is a book forme because I know I have a long
list of assumptions people madeabout me or said about me that

(10:39):
were just untrue.
Not, you know, just completelyfalse and doing it in real time,
pretty much just gaslighting,being gaslit.
Uh, so I appreciated the titlein that regard.
And, um, yeah, just going intothe gaslighting thing, like
that's what it is.
Like you are gast as a blackwoman in the workplace.

(11:00):
And, um, her acknowledging thatin that title, like, it just, it
says so much more.
And you know, I think if you'rea black woman, then it already
resonates with you and bringsback like thoughts and stories
and different experiences thatyou unfortunately have
experienced because you are ablack woman.

Joi (11:20):
Mm-hmm.

Jann (11:21):
What stands out to me about that is it's so rare where
you can say one phrase andrelate to a whole culture.
And as soon this is actually arecommendation from you,
Jasmine, um, this book.
And as soon as you told me, I'mreading this book, it's called,
I'm Not Yelling immediately, Iwas nodding my head like, yes,

(11:42):
mm-hmm.
I know exactly what this isabout.
So yeah, that was interesting.

Joi (11:49):
I actually really like this book and I love the title of it.
And something that I think isinteresting when you say I'm not
yelling is like when you'retalking to black women in the
way that we grow up, it's like,I'm not yelling, I'm just loud,
or I'm just animated, or I talkwith my hands or you know, all
the things you're not supposedto do in a professional setting.

(12:09):
You know, all the things that'slooked down upon.
And then it's like, you know,you have to restrict yourself
when you're in the office or youhave to like, kind of like, you
know, hide your true self fromyour coworkers.
You know, so anything thatrelates to that, we're used to,
that goes with like a a v e, ourexpressions, how loud we are,

(12:30):
how we laugh, you know, it'scrazy how down to how you laugh
when you're like, even on a Zoomcall, that's always, um, looked
at as unprofessional when you'rea black woman.
So, um, even like how we arenow, me with my Afro jazz, with
her head wrapped, Jan, just yourhair pulled back, it would be an
issue with someone probably inthe workplace.

(12:51):
So, um, I really like howmm-hmm.

Jann (12:56):
So I was gonna say, what's interesting is that I find it's
not even just in the workplace.
I find like even in my personallife, if I'm having a
disagreement with someone who isnot black, and um, it's not an
argument necessarily, but ifwe're having a debate about
anything, and if I use my handsor if I get excited, um, they
will use it as a point againstyou.

(13:17):
Like, why are you getting soexcited?
Or, oh my goodness, calm down.
It's not that like, I'm notupset, I'm just talking like,

Joi (13:25):
Or even at a restaurant, they're like, oh, can you tell
those black women to calm downover there?
Like, I don't know if they'regonna fight, or they're just too
loud and they're over therehaving a good time.
You know?
So I can see it.
Yeah, you're right.
In other places other than theworkspace, but

Jann (13:39):
which is the point you brought up in the book that, um,
you see if someone who'snon-black sees a group of black
people interacting, a lot of thetimes they mistake it as
confrontation.

Joi (13:51):
Mm-hmm.

Jann (13:53):
And I'm like, that's just so interesting to me.
Um, interesting is a good word.
Like too, like what do I mean byinteresting?
Is it offensive?
I don't know if I'm offended ornot that people take that as
confrontation.
You know, I'm not exactly surehow to feel like you're, they're
happy.
They're talking at, like they'reanimated when they're talking

(14:14):
and there's nothing wrong withthat.

Jas (14:16):
But if you really break that down, like why would that
bother people?
It it, I think what it comesdown to is black joy is what the
problem is.
Like black people thriving isthe problem.
And like she talked about makingherself smaller because if you
occupy any space where there waswhite people, it's like, how

(14:37):
dare you be comfortable here?
How dare you like, um, you know,be yourself and like bleed
there.
We live in a culture whereunfortunately, Black women
aren't supposed to be the leads.
We're not the princesses.
We are the side character.
And if we go outside of thatnorm, then it's a problem.

(15:00):
And in that same realm, the, theidea of black people, for people
who don't have any blackfriends, is rapport.
We have a hard life.
We're struggling all the time.
We're not thriving at all.
So when we go outside of that,especially in the workplace,
it's, it becomes a problem.

(15:21):
So that's something interesting.
Um, within itself too.
It really makes you wonder aboutlike the psychology and the
history behind some of people's,like, you know, Just why they do
some of the things they do andthey're doing on a subconscious
level, and they're being like,they're in a society where
people are saying, yeah, that'swhat you're supposed to do.

(15:42):
You're supposed to interruptblack people when they're making
too much noise.
That's what you're supposed todo.
You supposed to call the policeon'em when they're congregating
and no one thinks twice.
Like, Hey, that's kind ofracist.
Hey, you probably shouldn't bedoing that.
You know?
Um, so yeah.

Joi (15:58):
only not that, but it's also like when you call the
police, they're gonna take myside, the white side.
'cause I'm the one that'spresentable and Right all the
time.
There's never a doubt of I'mgonna call the police and
they're gonna believe me overyou, so.

Jas (16:13):
Right.

Joi (16:13):
Mm-hmm.

Jas (16:14):
There's audacity there.

Jann (16:17):
which I feel like contributes a lot to like, um,
the white tendency to victim,not victim, to play the victim.
You know, like if you stand upfor yourself and say, Hey,
that's not what's happeninghere.
Like, I'm actually doing whatI'm supposed to do.
If you give any kind ofpushback, here come the tears.

(16:37):
Here come the, okay, well maybeI was wrong, but you're being
too mean about it.
I don't understand why, which isanother point she brought up in
the book, right when she askedsomeone to stop speaking over
her, after he had been doing itmultiple times in a meeting,
everyone looked at her as if shewas the villain.

Joi (16:52):
Um.

Jas (16:52):
Mm-hmm.

Jann (16:53):
know, after that call, her boss called her and said, you
can't speak up for yourself likethat.
That was way too aggressive anddidn't address at all the fact
that she was being cut offmultiple times during the
meeting.

Jas (17:06):
Can I just say like, there are so many occasions you just
gave that example, that story.
There are so many stories shetold where I'm like, Was she
looking in my window like thisexact scenario happened to me.
Like seriously, that exact samething where I was giving a talk
at work in front of a group ofmen who did not like a younger

(17:27):
black women speaking to them andtelling them what their orders
were, which was my job.
And they kept interrupting me,being belligerent, saying rude
things to me.
And when I said, Hey you, youare supposed to just sit back
and listen, like I'm here justdoing my job.
You do your job, we're good.
And I, no one said anything tothese people who were being flat

(17:50):
out disrespectful to me.
But my boss talked to me aboutnot being so combative.
This is the first time anyoneused the word combative in my
language.
And I'm like, do you know me?
Like

Joi (18:01):
Mm-hmm.

Jas (18:02):
combative?
I'm like, did you hear what thisperson was saying to me?
Because.
A couple weeks ago you told methat I shouldn't let people
railroad me in meetings.
Meaning I was in meetings wherepeople kept talking over me
while I'm trying to get my wordsout and I couldn't get anything
out.
And again, they didn't getaddress.
Only I got address for lettingpeople railroad me.

(18:23):
So I said, which is it?
Is it that I'm combative or amI'm being railroaded?
And he is like, well, I guessit's, find a nice medium.
Okay.
Well, I don't know what to tellyou.

Joi (18:33):
Wow, you that's, that's crazy.
It's just, you know, they seethe issue and she said that, she
said, instead of going to theperson that caused the issue,
that made me uncomfortable, theywent back to me and said I was
the issue.
You know, it's crazy.
Um, but, uh, to bring it back alittle bit just to the part

(18:56):
about, I'm not yelling, um, inthe forward.
So when I first got the book andI opened it and I read the
Forward, I was like, hold on,let me just go ahead and get a
highlighter.
'cause I think I'm gonna need tohighlight some stuff.
So there's a few things Ihighlighted in the four just by
Lisa, um, Hurley, which is oneof her friends, right?
And some of the things she saidwas, why are you yelling when

(19:17):
someone asks you?
That is a way to weaponize, aweaponized way to police our
tone, you know, manipulate usand to quiet submission, and
it's meant to mute our voice.
And that hit hard.
I was like, yes, that's exactlywhat it does.
If someone asks you, why are youyelling?
Some people go like, well, I'mnot, I'm just hanging out with
my friends or whatever.
Like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn'trealize I was so loud or I was

(19:39):
bothering you.
You know?
And then what do you do?
You quiet down.
You like, you know what I mean?
Like, it's one thing if you'rein a restaurant and you're
talking, you're kind of loud,but it's like, If you're, like
Jan said, when she was in aposition of going back and forth
with someone and all of a suddenshe's looked at as combative.
You too, Jess.
So I think that's reallyimportant, um, to point out.

(20:01):
So, um, that was just a coupleof, you know, a few things that
I think is that really got meinto the book before I even got
into the book, you know, so Ithink that was, yeah.
So, um, as we go through, I'mgonna look through my
highlights,

Jas (20:18):
Hi.

Joi (20:19):
so, yeah.

Jann (20:21):
Yeah, that story in particular definitely stood out
to me when the boss came backand told her that she was the
issue in that situation.
Um, and it definitely brought meback to my last job that I ended
up quitting.
Um, there was one meeting inparticular about a month to the
day that I quit where I was in ameeting with a project manager.

(20:43):
Um, my co-project manager on theproject where multiple people
have complained to me about her,that she didn't know what she
was doing, that she was talkingtoo much during the meetings
without having anything to say.
Um, and in that particularmoment I was.
Speaking and trying to make apoint of what we had to do next.
And she cut me off to try tomake the point that I was

(21:03):
making, um, and made itcompletely wrong.
It was getting people confused.
So I spoke up and said, um, doyou mind if I just cut in and
like clarify something reallyquick?
And she had done this tomultiple people during the
meeting and I would normally letpeople finish their statement,
but she kept going on andgetting people more and more

(21:25):
confused.
So I had to step up as projectmanager and her response was,
um, no, I would actually like tofinish my point, if you don't
mind.

Joi (21:34):
Wow.

Jann (21:37):
And I got dinged for that.

Joi (21:39):
Wow.

Jann (21:39):
got dinged for that.
She made a complaint and yeah,she made a complaint about me,
about that moment and I got atalking to about that.
And I did not stay there forvery long after.
So, Yeah.

Joi (21:52):
You

Jann (21:52):
And it just kills me that like everyone has been
complaining about this woman andhow she does this, and they want
me to get the project on trackas a project manager, but when I
speak up, it doesn't matter.
You know, there's not much thatyou can do.
that's a defeatist attitude, Iguess.
Like there's a fine

Jas (22:11):
No, I don't think so.
I don't think so.
I think you, oh, go ahead.

Jann (22:17):
I was just gonna say there's a fine balance between
being defeatist and then knowingthat there are forces above you
that's going to try to keep youdown.
But, um, what I like about thisbook a lot is that she has steps
at the end that you can try tomake the situation better.
You know?
But I'm sorry, what were yougonna say?

Jas (22:37):
I was gonna say that you bring up a good point and as far
as like having a system ofsupport when there are
situations where people aretargeting you and treating you
unfairly.
Particularly because you're ablack woman and that's what the
whole, um, d e I initiativeswere supposed to be doing.

(22:58):
And surprise, surprise, like,you know, in 2020 this was a
huge thing.
All the, all the differentcompanies were talking about,
black Lives Matter and we'regonna do more.
We're gonna hire more diverseroles, we're gonna hire these G
E I initiatives, um, people.
And what's interesting is in thelast year, a lot of these, you

(23:19):
see all these people who've beenmass fired.
These are the people who arebeing mass fired because it's no
longer popular, it's no longercute.
And it's about creating thatenvironment of support.
Like your coworkers.
It should have been multiplepeople, not ju just your boss.
There should have been multiplepeople stepping in and saying,
will you let her finish?

(23:40):
Please?
Why do you feel the need tospeak over Janice when she's
speaking?
And you don't do that to anyoneelse?
Why do you feel the need tocontinue to do this?
But.
Because one, some people arecompletely oblivious to the fact
that there is something racisthappening right now.
Then there's the other peoplewho realize there's something
racist happening, but they haveno backbone and they on top of

(24:00):
having no backbone, they don'tknow what to say because they
are so uncomfortable aboutspeaking about race because they
live in this privileged societywhere race doesn't appeal to'em.
Like they don't have toacknowledge that the fact that
they're white.
I just be a person, which mustbe nice.
So I say all of that.

Jann (24:18):
can't relate.
Cannot relate.

Jas (24:20):
Exactly.
I say all of that.
It's not having a defeatistattitude, but there are so many
environments where it is justnot a place where we could
potentially thrive.
And it's because we have thesecultures, they're, they exist
everywhere.
You cannot go to a workplace andnot have it where.
People aren't actively workingagainst it.

(24:40):
If you don't have a system ofpeople actively working against
racism and sexism and otherdifferent, you know, things that
can hold people back, it's goingto happen.
So, yeah, that's it.

Jann (24:53):
Yeah.

Joi (24:53):
That's what, that's something that we touched on
too.
At the end of our last episodewhen we talked about this book,
I was like, you know, it mightseem like it's a podcast geared
towards black women, and it's,but as a white person, as a
black man, you can see differentperspectives and you can work to
be anti-racist or anti-sexist.

(25:13):
And that's a job, you know, youhave to make sure that what
you're doing every day is not amicroaggression.
Say, oh, your hair looks greattoday.
Or like, well, not like that.
Exactly, but you know, it's justlike, oh, you chased your hair
again, or something like that.
You know, like, I didn'trecognize you.
Something like that.
Like, I don't know.
There's different ways to talkto people without.
Offending them even it's byaccident.

(25:35):
That's you're teaching yourself.
That's not making me as a blackwoman when you offend me with a
microaggression at work to nothave to teach you, teach
yourself basically.
And that's when the anti blankcomes in, you know?

Jas (25:49):
Right.

Joi (25:50):
Um, Jan, I was gonna ask you, since everyone knew that
this guy that was cutting youoff, what like happened to other
people?
Did you bring that up in themeeting?
Because he had got dinged forit.
So like, what did they end upsaying?

Jann (26:03):
So it was a consultancy and it was a white woman
actually.
Um, which hurts a little bit,you know, I feel like even when
they're a different race, I feellike, um, women should have each
other's backs in the workplace alittle bit.
But I felt like she was a littleinsecure in her title, in her
role, especially since she wasnew to the company.
Um, but she was with a differentcompany.

(26:25):
Like I said, it was aconsultancy.
So her boss actually spoke up,um, and said, you know, let's
not talk over each other and.
So and so, I'm not gonna say hername.
Go ahead and finish your pointas if she did not interrupt me.
And because they were thecustomer is why it got back to
my boss, because we should bedoing what they want, even
though the project, um, uh, it'sthe responsibility of their

(26:48):
project ultimately falls on us.
It's a very tricky place to

Joi (26:51):
Mm-hmm.
There's a couple of levels oflike different things going on
there, but um, I was going tomention when you said it
happened

Jann (26:58):
someone did speak up.
I'm sorry, someone did speak up,but for her,

Joi (27:02):
right.

Jann (27:03):
she was wounded.

Joi (27:05):
No, yeah.
No, I was just wondering, justbecause like I've spoken out
before, To, um, team members andI've noticed other people
getting spoken over and I, and Iwould go, I wait for them to
finish whoever was speaking andI'd be like, Hey, I've noticed
you are talking over, or like,you're cutting off a lot of
people or so-and-so a lot, it'sinappropriate.

(27:26):
Let her finish her sentence, lether finish her, um, thought and
they'll come to you.
You know, like it's one of thosethings where it's just like, I
think it's great when someoneelse can also be there for you.
'cause something that Liva, I'msorry.
Yeah, Liva, um, mentions in herbook is that it's nice to have a
community of people who can alsobe there for you.
'cause it makes ituncomfortable.

(27:47):
So if you have someone else onyour side, on your team, it's
like, Hey, I don't mind makingyou uncomfortable.
You just made this personuncomfortable how many times?
And you have to stop it and ittracks immediately, you know,
just like, Hey, let's pause thismeeting real quick and, you
know, address this issue so Ican stop.
It's inappropriate, you know,so,

Jann (28:07):
So normally in that situation, I wouldn't, I, I
agree with you.
It should be addressed rightaway.
And I'm used to facilitatingmeetings.
Um, as a project manager,normally the approach that I
take is I wait for them tofinish speaking and then before
we can comment on what theysaid, I will go back to the
person like, okay.
Thank you.
Now, joy, I think you weremaking a point as well.

(28:28):
Do you mind finishing what youwere saying?
You know, and that's how I wouldaddress it, just to like keep
the peace because again, like Ifeel like as a black woman in
the workplace, I have to becareful about what I say to not
come off as combative, but I'malso in a position where I have
to make sure my team is heard.
So that's the way that Inormally address it.

(28:50):
But I commend you if you like,completely like call out the
person who's cutting people off.
'cause normally that just endsin an argument in a unsuccessful
meeting for me.
Um, but I kind of work withadult toddlers sometimes, so,

Joi (29:04):
Well, that's the thing.
I work with regular toddlers,but I, but I also work with the
adults that watch'em and theadults that raise'em.
Um, so it happens in differentlike levels, like how you had a
client and you also have yourcoworkers.
And sometimes it's good to nothave to be a leader because I'd
be like, listen, this isinappropriate.
I'm coming as a coworker, I'mnot even a leader and I'm

(29:26):
noticing this.
So not only are you, um, youknow, being inappropriate,
cutting people off, doingwhatever, and then you as a
leader, you are the one whoshould be doing what I'm doing
right now.
So both you both, you get ittogether, you know,

Jann (29:41):
Go to your corners.

Joi (29:44):
everybody.

Jas (29:47):
I also wanna say I commend you on that joy because one
thing that I, I learned fromthis book that I thought was
very helpful, and it's theopposite of what I've done in my
entire career, is speaking up inreal time.
And I'm a, so I'm a groupperson.
I'm all about making sure, do Ido what's best for the team.

(30:10):
The last thing I wanna do,especially if we're on a tight
deadline, we're behind schedulefor something, is derail this
meeting for somethinginappropriate.
This person said, we don't havethe time or energy.
So a lot of times what I do is Imake a note of the inappropriate
things this person said, andthen I make a point to go talk
to them later on.

(30:30):
And she mentioned why this is abad idea to do, even though like
it's, I feel like it's one ofthe more, um, it's very, I.
Respectful.
I feel like it's one of the morerespectful things to do,
especially if you're dealingwith people who are higher rank
than you.
Um, but what happens is you justopened yourself up to be gaslit,

(30:52):
like to another degree.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've said, Hey, you said
this during the meeting and Ididn't appreciate you making
that comment.
Could you please not do thatanymore?
Oh, what comment?
I didn't say anything like that.
What do you mean?
Are you this easily offended?
Why are you so sensitive?
And it just turns into thiswhole thing.

(31:12):
And like you did this to respecttheir ego and to save them a
little face from sayingsomething stupid during a
meeting while you're trying toget work done.
And I think that's a naturalapproach for anyone who has
like, Common decency and wasn'traised in a freaking barn.
Um, but it comes back to bite usbecause now on top of me having

(31:34):
this uncomfortable situation,now I'm pissed because this
person doesn't even realize whatI just did for them by get
letting'em say face.
But now they're gonna go andtalk to my manager, probably try
to write me up for something andlike now's my word versus
theirs.
And we already know how thatgoes in most, in most scenarios.
So I just thought that was avery interesting approach and it

(31:56):
makes so much sense, but it'snot what I've done in the past.
So I appreciated that, that notein the book.

Joi (32:03):
But to be fair, the culture is changing.
It hasn't always been a momentwhere it's like you can actually
speak out against it.
You know?
It is, hasn't always been amoment go like, Hey, you're
being inappropriate.
They'll just, you know, it'llalways just be, you know, you
just have to suck it up.
And that's why they're sayinglike, work twice as hard to get
half as much.
It's been okay.

(32:23):
You know?
So now that we're in 2023 andthis book was written like maybe
2020, I think she said shestarted writing it.
Things have been graduallychanging from there.
And it, it hasn't been the samesince Covid pretty much, you
know, so because people arepointing it out more and more,

Jann (32:41):
Uh, what I'll say about that particular story too, um,
because I just told you a wholeexample of how I avoid
confrontation while stillgetting my job done, because I'm
just such a, like,non-confrontational person.
It's my instinct to just avoidit, um, which is why it's
whatever, which is, which is whyit's so much more offensive when

(33:02):
people call me confrontational.
Like, you don't know anythingabout me.
Like you haven't tried toobserve anything about me.
You saw my skin color and madean assumption because that is
like the opposite of where I am.
So yeah, super offensive.
Um, but that was one piece ofadvice where I completely
understood where she's comingfrom.
Like, yes, that's exactly whathappens every time, which is why

(33:23):
I just let it go.
And I don't think it's somethingwhere Jasmine, you said they
don't realize what you just didfor them.
It's, I feel like a lot of thetimes they do realize it and
they expect it and theyweaponize that they weaponize
your decency against You Youknow?
And I will say I was sosurprised and one of the reasons
probably why I ended up quittingso much so soon after they

(33:44):
brought that to me, um, to bringit to me after you said, this is
something that you need to dealwith.
And I did that and you're stillmaking this my issue.
You know, like I had neverexperienced that in my job
before.
Because I had been there foralmost a decade and I had built
up my brand, you know, um, tothe point where I was like,

(34:07):
they, everyone knew my workethic.
They knew who I was.
Like there had been multipletimes where someone knew would
come onto a project and try tomake complaints like that
against me, and it never reachedme until end a year, you know,
because my manager wouldimmediately say, no, Janice
would not do that.
This is what you'remisunderstanding.
Like, they would figure it outbefore they ever brought it to

(34:28):
me, you know?

Joi (34:30):
But

Jann (34:30):
Um, and I

Joi (34:31):
manager?
Yeah.
Your manager wasn't there foryou that time.

Jann (34:34):
like he, he was not, no.
And like I said, that job I wasin previously, my brand was so
well built and like myreputation was established to
the point where I didn't have todeal with that, which is
probably a blessing I didn'tappreciate at the time, but it's
also not something that I didn'tlike work very hard for.

Jas (34:52):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.

Jann (34:53):
So, um, yeah, I think.
Going to a new job was like acomplete cultural shock for me.
Even though I was used to codeswitching, I was used to doing
all that stuff.
Um, and it was probably one ofthe things that helped me build
my brand and I shouldn't havehad to do it, but that's where
we were.
Um, just that shock to my systemwhere you told me to do this, I

(35:15):
did this and I'm still wrong,was not something I experienced
before.
So, yeah.
Interesting.

Jas (35:22):
very interesting.
One last thing I want to pointout with Joyce said that things
are changing and the only thingI will say is I've been working
for a decade and I worked for anumber of industries.
I've worked for completelydifferent companies, big, small,
and I say it depends.
It really depends on theorganization, how diverse they

(35:42):
are, and how much they careabout respecting their co, their
coworkers, and the people whowork there.
Um, so I, I like to be carefulabout language, like yeah, race
relations are getting betterbecause when I asked, I remember
having a conversation with mom,and for those of you who don't
know our mom, she was born inthe sixties.

(36:03):
Um, you know, I, I have askedher before, like based on how
things are right now and howthey were where you grew up, you
know, with segregation and, youknow, Martin Luther King Jr.
Was alive while she was alive.
Do you think racism has gottenbetter?
And her answer to me was, it'sgotten different.

(36:25):
She doesn't think it's changedat all.
It's just as racist today as itwas in, we were going through
segregation and trying to figureout laws so that we have basic
rights.
It's just the marketing hasgotten a lot better to make it
seem like things are better.
Um, so yeah, I, I just like tobe careful of language like

(36:46):
that.
'cause it's very much in line.
Like, we had a black presidentracism's over, you know, like
not the case at all.

Joi (36:53):
no.
Um, I wanted to clarifyactually, um, what I meant when
I, when I said things arechanging, I mean, it's changing
in the way that we can voice ouropinions at work more.
You know, we can say that we'reuncomfortable with how we're
being, um, treated.
We can say, Hey, actually amicroaggression, and I would
like to teach you, this is ateachable moment.
You know, like, don't say thatto black women.

(37:13):
You know, don't cut me off.
You know, there's, there was apoint before when you would get
cut off or you would have amicroaggression.
You have to just wipe, you know,throw it over your shoulder, get
over it, you know?
But that's what I

Jann (37:25):
on where you are.

Joi (37:26):
yeah, definitely.

Jann (37:28):
because there, I feel like there is space, like you're
saying, joy to call that outmore often.
Um, but it, it, it depends onwhere you are because.
There are just as many spaceswhere if you call that out,
you're gonna have a target onyour back, which I know she said
a lot during the book.
Um, and she said that luckilysome of her exper, her

(37:48):
experiences have been theopposite, where she didn't have
a target on her back.
Um, and it actually made thingsbetter.
But that's not always gonna bethe case.
And one thing I liked that shesaid in the book is that, um, I
don't know if you guys rememberthe, um, story where she went
into the interview and she woreher afro and they were very
dismissive to her.
Um, the moral of that story,which kind of shocked me was

(38:09):
that she's not gonna careanymore.
I was like, wait, how is that asolution?
Like, you're still gonna go tointerviews and get looked down
upon because of your Afro, butshe just said like, okay, well
that's gonna happen.
I'm not gonna let it affect myinterview.
And if that's the way theychoose to behave, then that's
not the place for me.

Joi (38:26):
Exactly.
You're, you're, you're helpingyourself.
Like, you know what?
Go ahead, go be hateful.
You know, look at me, slide awayand have me wait 30 extra
minutes past my interview timebecause I wanna see how you guys
act before I get in here and domy taxes

Jann (38:41):
you're right.

Joi (38:42):
Um, I do have a quick quote though from, um, this discussion
from my highlighted myhighlights and basically, um, it
says the perpetrator is countingon us to be uncomfortable, um,
feel like we are responsible andfeel too awkward to call them
out on their behaviors.
So, like you said, yeah, likethey're looking, they're hoping

(39:02):
to, you know, that we would begood and go like, okay, that's
fine.
You know, let them go ahead andtalk.
But this is why she says shewants to address the issue
immediately after it occurs, youknow, and make sure that they
know before they forget whathappened, you know, and then
details can change.
Um, and they said she just wantsto make it a, a creative space

(39:23):
for teachable moment.
So, That was something thatreally sat well with me too, you
know,

Jann (39:29):
Yeah.

Joi (39:31):
and why it is important

Jann (39:32):
I, I,

Joi (39:32):
moment.

Jann (39:35):
yeah, I guess I just like to look at it as, you have to be
realistic.
You know, if you wanna call outevery microaggression, I feel
like I do at this point.
Like, I, I wanna call it outwhen it's happening to me.
'cause I have so many stories ofthings that's happened that I
just stay silent about.
And it's like, it makes youbitter after a while, you know?

(39:58):
Um, you just have to realizethat sometimes that is going to
like, have some backlash andsometimes it's not the worst
thing in the world.
Like maybe you're just gettingout of a place that you're not
meant for.
So,

Joi (40:11):
You know, and that's good to know too.
And you know what else?
Something that makes me realizetoo, that I'm a little bit more
comfortable calling things out.
I have a little bit of privilegein the black community.
I'm light skinned, you know?
And like oftentimes I'm notlooked at as, as aggressive, and
I'm like, you know, I'm bigger,I'm cuddly, I'm nice, I'm
friendly.
So when someone is talking downto someone else or saying like,

(40:33):
Hey, why are they yelling ortalking over them?
I use my little bit of privilegethat I have to kind of stick up
for them when they don't,probably don't have that same
privilege as I do.
You know what I mean?
So it's just like when you saylike, Hey white women, we're
looking, we're hoping that youstick up for us.
You know?
Or black men like you are alsopart of the struggle.

(40:56):
Or have a certain struggle.
Use the privilege that you haveas a man, as a white woman, and
stick up for us as well.
You know?
Because even if I could do thatfor other black women, Just like
how I, I want like a skinnyblack woman to stick up for me
when someone's like, Hey, bigbitch.
Like go, like, go where at?
You know?

(41:17):
So it's just one of those thingswe gotta, we can use our own
privilege that we probably haveto help others as well in a
situation.

Jas (41:24):
Good point.
Good point, joy.

Joi (41:28):
Yeah.
Thanks.

Jann (41:30):
since we're kind of on this topic, um, let me go ahead
and ask this question.
So the book explores the idea ofsocietal norms and pressures
that can affect how wecommunicate, um, how can we
challenge these norms and createhealthier communication patterns
in our lives.
So I think that goes along withthe conversation we were talking
about with calling outmicroaggressions when they

(41:51):
happen.
Um, is there anything else thatwe can do that you guys can
think of that'll help us in oursituations that we're dealing
with?

Joi (42:00):
Um, I'm not sure as far as like helping our situations with
dealing with, but something thatI kept.
Coming back to when I wasreading the book was like, you
know, she said she wants to behard, authentic self.
She doesn't want to code switch.
But there's a way that I speakto you guys, my family, and
there's a way that I speak to myhusband.
There's a way I speak to, like,there's different ways you speak

(42:20):
to people, including your workpartners, your coworkers.
But where's the line where it'sactually code switching?
You know, there's things I willsay to you guys.
I wouldn't say the, to theparents of my students, you
know?
Um, so I just, I think that mostof the, the way that I would, I
would like to go aboutcommunication.

(42:41):
It's just like, I'm stillmyself.
I don't feel like I have to puta mask on to talk to you.
But I would say it in a morelike, Hey, you know, um, I don't
know.
It's just, I, I don't know.
I hope you guys are kind ofunderstanding what I'm saying,
but it's just like, I'm not surewhere that line is, you know?

Jann (43:01):
There's a difference between being professional and
code switching.
Like you don't have to curse ifyou're trying to be
professional, but you alsoshouldn't have to change your
accent.

Joi (43:09):
Mm

Jann (43:10):
you should dress well when you're being professional, but
that doesn't mean you have tostraighten your hair to make it
more manageable or presentable.
You know?
Like there, there's definitely aline and I feel like as black
women we're pushed past thatline a lot.
Like if we wear our naturalhair, there's people commenting
on it.
There's people making passiveaggressive comments on it.

(43:31):
Um, yeah.
And there's a thousand examplesof just my hair and the
workplace that I can bring up.
Um, one in particular thatstands out to me is, Um, when
our niece was born, everyone inthe office was asking me about
her because I couldn't stoptalking about her.

(43:52):
She was about three months whenthis happened, and, um, someone
in my office just asked, how'sit going?
And at the time I just said, oh,you know, it's great.
She has a little bit of strangerdanger right now.
Um, and she doesn't recognize meevery time I come over, so I
don't get to hold her as oftenas I like, or something like
that.
And their comment to me was,well, maybe it's because you

(44:12):
change your hair so often shedoesn't know who you are.

Jas (44:16):
Oh my goodness.

Joi (44:17):
Girl.

Jann (44:18):
I'm like, or it could be that she's three months old.
Like, why is that what youthought to tell me?
Like you had that one locked andloaded.
You couldn't wait to saysomething about it.

Jas (44:31):
I, I, I think, yeah, that's something where if you don't
experience it on a regularbasis, I, I feel like a white
person listening to this waslike, I don't understand what's
the problem?
The problem is, the problem is,this is not the only thing
you've heard about your hair atwork.
And I, I'll go as far, I have ahair story too.

(44:53):
My hair story is I wouldstraighten my hair all
throughout, you know, I had arelaxer all, you know, the age
you could have a relaxer allthrough high school and in
college.
When I was living in New York, Ihad an opportunity to say, you
know what, screw this.
I don't, I can't afford to getmy hair done.

(45:14):
I don't have the resources to goout and straighten it all the
time, nor the time because I'mworking.
I have an internship, I haveschool, so I'm gonna wear my
hair curly.
It was the first time in my lifewhere I'm like, I'm just gonna
let it hang out.
And I was told by my job at thetime that my hair was
inappropriate.
And that I was not allowed towear it curly anymore.

(45:37):
I had to straighten my hair formy job.
And mind you, at the same time,there were three other white
girls who had curly natural hairwho were allowed to wear their
hair naturally curly and to backup their, their statements, they
said the same thing to the whitegirls after they said it to me

(45:57):
too.
Like, oh, you guys had tostraighten your hair now too.
Um,

Jann (46:02):
That is insane.

Joi (46:04):
And the wise words of charade for my alleged
housewives, who's gonna pay meboo?
That should cost money and time.
You wanna pay me to go to ablowout bar and get a Brazilian
blowout like, girl, it's nutsthough.
It's like, it almost makes meemotional when they're like,
your natural state is not goodenough.

(46:24):
You know, I,

Jas (46:25):
why wouldn't it?
Why wouldn't it?

Jann (46:28):
I feel like that's closer to like overt racism than like
microaggression, to be honestwith you.
like a microaggression.
like another story that I havehappened to be the same woman in
this office, by the way.
It's, I had just been wearingtwist outs, like not even like
Afro just curly down for months.

(46:50):
Like that's a hairstyle that Ijust got comfortable with.
And the other black women in theoffice went and got braids, like
just single braids.
And she made it a point aftergoing and telling her how much
she likes her hair to godirectly.
I saw her work from her cubicleover the mind to tell me, I
guess you're not the one withthe most interesting hair in the

(47:11):
office anymore.

Joi (47:14):
What,

Jann (47:17):
Like these are microaggressions.
Exactly

Joi (47:21):
There's no way.
I think it's, it's importantalso to note that it is a
cultural thing as well.
Um, for me personally, I neverhad an issue once again, like, I
can't know if you could tell ornot, but my hair, it's ringless.
So like a, like a, um, A three Cor so, right?
Or a four A Um, not a lot ofpeople mentioned my texture of

(47:44):
my hair'cause they, theyconsider acceptable.
But when I cut my hair, um,because I had a lot of split
ins, my hair was a lot longer,even in its curly state, it was
past my shoulders.
When I told my hairdresser, Ilike, Hey, chop the shit off.
It's old, it's raggedy.
I want it to be cut off.
She was like, but it's so longand pretty.
You don't see it that often onblack girls.

(48:06):
And I was like, girl, you're ablack woman first.
You know, stand up, stand upgirl.
Chop this shit off it's hair.
It'll grow back.
You got this long already, it'llcome back.
You know?
Um, I think one of the thingstoo is like internalized racism
is a big issue as well.
So we work with, um, withinourselves, work with our

(48:29):
sisters, and then like we canpush out more when we have more
soldiers on our side to say,Hey, that's not all right.
We have more people to fight forus.
In the other parts of thecommunity,

Jas (48:39):
Agreed.
I wanna get back to the originalquestion Janice asked too in
regard to,'cause we got, youtalk about hair and like that's
a tangent all on its own right.

Jann (48:48):
Yeah.

Jas (48:48):
Um, the question was, what other tactics can we use when it
comes to communication outsideof speaking up when we see a
microaggression and, um, onething that I thought of is
receipts.
Unfortunately, the, the idea isthat you have to work harder,
like, so much harder than yourwhite counterparts.
But I can't tell you how manystories I have where I had

(49:11):
receipts and someone was tryingto come at me because they were
like, oh, I can just treat herany way I want and, and try to
make me out to be a certainperson that I'm not.
I'll give you an example.
So I just wanna preface thiswith, like I said, I worked for
a decade.
I've worked at so many differentcompanies at every single
company I've worked at, with theexception of my current

(49:31):
position.
I have dealt with some type ofracism.
Some people flat out just comingfor me just because I'm a black
woman and people questioningwhether or not I can do my job.
And it, it is very much tied tome being a black woman.
So all that to say is I gotstories for days, like a lot of
this stuff, but about thereceipts.

(49:53):
I had one situation where I hada woman who, she's a white
woman, she's had issues withmultiple people with not doing
what she says she's going to do,and my boss instructed me to
reach out to her and ask her toturn in some documents.
I sent her an email and I said,Hey, here are the documents that

(50:14):
you're missing.
I made it nice and helpful.
I gave her links so she has moredetails of all the things that
she needs to turn in, and I sentit over to her and I copied my
boss on it because, um, that'sthe other part of this.
You go, boss has to have yourback 100%.
And they have to know that theseare some of the things that are
gonna happen because I'm a blackwoman.
Sorry.
She replied to that email.

(50:36):
Actually, she didn't reply tothe email.
She forwarded my email, not tomy boss, but to my boss's boss
and said, I don't like Jasmine'stone.
I think she was very combativein this email.
She's attacking me.
I don't like how she said thisin this, in this email.
And, um, my, she didn't even goto my boss.

(50:57):
So like my boss's boss came toher and said, What is this?
Why is she sending me thisemail?
There's nothing in this emailthat I think is combative or
aggressive or any of thesethings that Jasmine is saying.
And you know, it sounds likeshe's just asking her for this
information.
Can you gimme some background?
Of course, my boss was like,yeah, Jasmine combative, like

(51:19):
you even know this girl.
Like she would never do anythinglike this.
And you know, Jasmine has donethis, she's done this, she's
done this.
And it sucks because like itslows down my job.
It slows down my boss's job thatwe have to, we have to sit back
here and do a whole party forwhy Jasmine is awesome because
someone doesn't like the tone

Joi (51:37):
Mm-hmm.

Jas (51:38):
of the email that I sent that was just direct and saying,
Hey, can you get this donetoday?
And she didn't like that it wascoming from me.
So having someone that has yourback have a receipt saying like,
here's my work that I've done inthe past, when someone.
When someone comes for you andyou know, just doing your job
and not getting caught upbecause I, I guarantee you,

(51:58):
there is someone there who iswaiting for you to slip up.
And once you slip up, they'regonna take that and run with it
and say, this is why she doesn'tneed to be in her job anymore.

Jann (52:10):
so.
Completely agree with everythingyou just said.
And that's called c y a.
That's like 30% of my job as aproject manager is cover your
ass.
Um, meeting notes, extra emails,making sure that everyone who
needs to be copied andunderstands or copied on the
email.
Um, yes, that is a huge part ofbeing a black woman in the

(52:33):
office as well.
Even if you're not a projectmanager, 30% of your job as a
black woman is c y a.

Jas (52:39):
All right.

Joi (52:39):
My thing is too, when you said receipts, jazz, uh,
something I saw on TikTokactually was like, you know,
when you have a verbalaltercation or a verbal
conversation, make sure youemail them and go like, Hey, per
our conversation, I just wantedto make sure that we clarify
these points.
Blank, blank, blank.
This was the issue.
This is what we resolved, thisis what we talked about.
And have them reply so that youhave like a physical copy of

(53:02):
what they said to you in theconversation, just in case it
gets up in, in hr.
So it won't be he said, she saidit is right here documented even
with verbal communication.
So you're right, c y a baby.

Jann (53:17):
And along with c y a and receipts.
Getting back to that question,um, again, um, something that we
can do, I feel like it's a mindchange or a mindset change, you
know, the same way that shesaid, I'm not going to let
people looking down on mebecause I have a Afro affect my
actual interviewing skills.
Um, one thing that she said toowas instead of viewing a job as

(53:40):
a relationship, it's gonna be afriends with benefits.
You know, like as soon as thisno longer serves me, I'm going
to move on.
You know, I'm not gonna stayhere because I owe them this or
I owe them that.
Like, no, this is no longerbenefiting me.
This is not the place for me.
I'm gonna keep going.
Um, and then asking, rather thanasking, do I belong here?

(54:01):
Do I fit in, ask.
Does this place deserve me?
Which I thought was amazing.

Jas (54:07):
that was one of my favorite parts.

Jann (54:09):
Those were two things that stuck out to me, like as far as
like what we can do to changehow we're viewed in the
workplace.
Um, sometimes it's not anythingyou can change, you just have to
change your own mindset.
So,

Joi (54:19):
I love everything that you said and I know I was like kind
of like chuckling over here.
I was thinking like friends withbenefits, like yeah, you hit and
quit that job, girl.

Jann (54:32):
yeah.
Yeah.
So quick question.
Were there any experiences ortopics, um, that identified that
you identified with more thanothers?
And how did you handle thosesimilar situations?
Now, I know we kind of beentalking about that the whole
time, but I just wanted to openthe floor if there's anything,

(54:52):
any particular part of the book.
Yes, Jasmine.

Jas (54:57):
There's one part of it that I feel like this was my biggest
takeaway from the book, and

Jann (55:05):
I wonder if it's gonna be the same as mine.
Go ahead.
I'll let you know.

Jas (55:08):
I'm gonna preface it by talking about another book
really quick, because it wasthis other book for why this
topic became such a big dealwith women in the workplace.
So there's a book I read a longtime ago, lean In.
By, um, Sheryl Sandberg, and itwas a big hit and it was all
about women in the workplace.
And one of the big takeawayseveryone talked about in that

(55:31):
book was imposter syndrome.
And they talked about how

Jann (55:34):
it.
That was the one,

Jas (55:37):
she made that term popular.
She did.
And she said like, you are inthere, in that workplace, like
you deserve to be there.
You need to get outta your ownhead when it comes to imposter
syndrome and do your thing.
But after that book came out,which I still think it was a
great book, but it came from avery narrow place.

(55:57):
She's a white woman who's verysuccessful and she didn't look
at a lot of these concepts froma full lens.
What I loved about whatElizabeth Liva said is like, is
it imposter syndrome or is itthat you're being treated like
an imposter?
I can't remember exactly theterm that she used.

Jann (56:15):
that's exactly the term she used.
She said imposter syndrome isoftentimes imposter treatment,
which was like a light bulbgoing off for me, so I just
wanted to like re reaffirm.
That's exactly the term, but goahead.

Jas (56:29):
Yes.
So that was the part that stoodout to me the most because I,
she talked about her story, likehow she was this boisterous
person in high school, loud,made jokes like she was very
confident in herself and Iresonated with that'cause that's
who I was in high school.
I was very loud and boisterousand I was like cocky and

(56:49):
confident in talking about, ohyeah, I'll do this test in my
sleep.
Because like, I had it, youknow, I knew I was going to
college, I knew I was gonna dowell in college and I did.
But there was something thathappened.
In college where I made myselfsmaller.
And in that time, from that timefor me going to college, to me
working in the workspace wherenow I'm the type of person that

(57:11):
people say, don't let peoplerailroad you in meetings.
That doesn't even make anysense.
How do you go from being thisperson who's not only like
confident and smart and theyknow what they're doing?
'cause someone who can barelyspeak in a meeting because
everyone keeps talking overthem, it doesn't happen that
that's not a natural transitionfor a person to be.

(57:32):
So I really resonated with herwhen she said that.
And she said, are, are, do youhave imposter syndrome or are
people treating you like you'rean outsider?
Like you don't belong there?
And that's really what it isbecause I can go in full of
confidence.
I, okay, I'll tell one morestory.
Like I said, I have one morestory I'll tell you about this.

(57:53):
It was a different job I workedat and I had a woman, a couple
of women actually, who werecomplaining about me to my boss
and to my boss's boss.
I don't like that Jasmine didthis.
I don't like how Jasmine didthat.
And anytime I might have to workwith them and like get
information from them or try towork so we can like figure out

(58:15):
how to solve this problem thatwe're supposed to work on, they
would either ignore my emails orcompletely just, just send like
passive aggressive things in anemail, just not making any
progress or ask me questionslike, why do you need this
anyway?
And.

Jann (58:33):
And then turn around and call you combative.
It's insane to me.
I have so many experiences likethat, but I'm sorry, continue.

Jas (58:41):
So she was just giving me a hard time and my boss said, I'm
just gonna talk to her.
I'm gonna talk to her and figureout what's the problem.
Why does she have a problem withyou?
And my boss, she's a whitewoman, so I felt like she, this
other white woman, thought shecould talk to her and be honest
with her about what her problemwas with me.
And I'm curious'cause I'm allabout feedback.

(59:01):
Like, I need to be a betterperson.
Like, you know, tell me what Ineed to do so I can prove my
job.
She tells my boss, I just, Idon't like how confident Jasmine
is in meetings.
I just, I feel like I don't knowenough when she's asking so many
questions and when she's soengaged in the meetings and

(59:21):
like, it just don't make me feelgood to God.
This woman said this.
Yeah, she says she doesn't likehow confident I am in meetings
and it makes her feel notconfident and like she doesn't
know what to say in meetings.
That's her problem with me,

Joi (59:42):
Instead of improving

Jann (59:43):
know what

Jas (59:46):
So, yeah.

Jann (59:47):
had, I had a story in the chamber about something so
similar to that about Apostatesyndrome, about how like senior
PMs, when I was just startingout, didn't like to listen to my
advice, um, when it came tofinancial spreadsheets or
anything that I was clearlybetter at than them.
Um, and it's because they didn'tlike how confident I was.

(01:00:08):
But I have never experiencedsomeone just outright saying, I
don't like how confident she,like they really are saying the
quiet parts out loud now, aren'tthey?

Joi (01:00:17):
Well, not only that, but there's also a part of the book
where it's like, you know,between men and women, being
confident is a, is a good thingfor men in leadership position.
But as a woman, you look at asarrogant, you know, or looking
down on other people because youthink you know everything.
So that could also be part ofjust plaino sexism as well.

Jann (01:00:37):
Yeah, it definitely is.
Um, it's you, she, Jasmine didsay that it was a white woman,
so I'm sure that was more sorace-based.
But that is something that shebrought up in the book is how
important it is to have asponsor rather than a mentor and
how her sponsor was a white man.
Because when it came todiscussions about performance,
he was the person to speak upand say, um, when they were

(01:01:01):
bashing her about howconfrontational or how she's too
direct or so and so he'll sayno.
Those are actually goodqualities.
They had nothing to say aboutthat because like you said, joy,
like when it comes to a man,being direct is something
that's, a sign of leadership,whereas if it's a black woman,
then she's confrontational.
So yeah, definitely having asponsor.

(01:01:21):
I love that idea because I havea lot of mentors, mostly because
I needed someone to back me upwhen someone complained about
something ridiculous, which Ididn't even internalize as a
racist thing.
I just thought it was me being ayounger woman in a financial
field, but seeing other youngwomen come into the field that
were not black, it became clearto me very quickly that it was a

(01:01:42):
race thing.
Um, but I always had a lot ofmentors just to back me up and I
didn't even consider having asponsor, but I had those
unknowingly, like I never soughtout a sponsor, but luckily I had
one or two that helped me along.

Joi (01:01:55):
So what exactly would be the difference between a sponsor
and a mentor?
Like, like what exactly is thedifference?
Because I'm not picking it up,you know?

Jann (01:02:04):
Do you wanna take it, Jess, or you want me to?

Jas (01:02:07):
I can, I can talk through it.
I, I don't know exactly, I can'tremember what she called a
sponsor versus a mentor, but I.
To me, they're one and the same.
So I know like a sponsor haholds a place of, of, um, power.
So like they have, they can't,you can't have a sponsor and
they on the same level as youbecause like, they're not gonna
get anywhere.
If a VP is attacking you, theycan't do anything to like,

(01:02:30):
protect you from that vp.
Whereas a mentor, like they canbe someone your same age or in
your same job category orwhatever.
For me, like, um, my sponsorshave always been my mentors,
which have always been mybosses.
And this is something that Itell my friends, like, I don't
go into a job role unless myboss is willing to be a mentor

(01:02:52):
for me because I, I think that'sa good way to make sure that
one, I can come to the job 100%as myself, like, I'm gonna come,
sometimes I just wanna shoot theshit and talk to you and see how
things are going.
And other times I'm like,listen, I'm at a loss for words.
I don't know why this person isdoing this.
Like, could you gimme someguidance?
And then some days it's justlike, hey, Um, I, this person is

(01:03:15):
attacking me.
Can you help?
And I feel like that'stechnically, I feel like that's
what your boss should do.
Um, but I like to just make surethat I bring that up upfront
because I, I was surprised tolearn that people don't have
those summer relationships withtheir bosses where they actually
have their back and they're,they have, they're taking you
under their wing.

(01:03:35):
Like, Hey, I wanna see you grow.
I wanna see you develop in yourcareer.
Um, so that, that's what Ithink, Jan, you can clarify for
any of those things.

Jann (01:03:45):
Yeah, the way I understood it, um,'cause that's how I've
gone through jobs as well.
Jazz, like sponsors and mentorswere the same to me.
And I feel like your sponsor canbe a mentor.
The difference with that is likea mentor while still above you.
Like I had a mentor who wasmaybe two levels above me, which
is where she suggested two, twolevels and he showed me a lot
about like, he was sitting on mymeetings, gimme pointers or

(01:04:06):
where I can improve, where I canbe more assertive, um, where I
can help the team along a littlebit.
That's a mentor.
But we had the same bossultimately, you know, like there
was a team of people under thisperson.
Um, and you can be at differentlevels, but I mean as far as pay
or role title, but we're allanswering to him.
So a sponsor should be somebodywho can, um, Talk.

(01:04:31):
Not necessarily just give a goodreview, but be in those
conversations when they'retalking about, um, raises or
promotions and actually haveyour back, because not all your
mentors are gonna be at thatlevel.
So you also need a sponsor,which I had and a VP without me
knowing until it got back to methat he advocated for me.

(01:04:51):
You know?

Joi (01:04:52):
what's some more likely with more power than like?
Like more, more room to be ableto do something about

Jann (01:04:59):
think she talked in the book.
Yeah, in the book she talked tooabout, um, you can have all your
mentors be black women becauseyou need to know how to make it
to where they made it as a blackwoman specifically, but your
sponsor, you might want to be adifferent sex or a different
race because they have morecred, or not credibility, but
kind of, you know, like theirword is like a little bit more

(01:05:20):
heavily weighted than a blackwoman, unfortunately.
So it was just all critiqued.
Yeah, all strategy about how youcan cheat the system of
oppression, pretty much.
So, yeah, that was thedifference

Joi (01:05:35):
Interesting.
Okay.
Um, thank you for not dumbing itdown, but explaining it to me
more.

Jas (01:05:42):
Yeah.
Same for me

Joi (01:05:43):
I appreciate that.
Um, actually bringing it back tothe imposter syndrome, um, I
have a quote that I liked.
Um, in this chapter it says, um,in reality the root of the fraud
feeling is a result ofsystematic bias and exclusion.
And rather than naming thatsociety a k a, the academy found
another way to cover it up andname the experiences of

(01:06:06):
marginalized communities thatplaces blame on the person
rather than the system.
So when you say you haveimposter syndrome, and she said
that her friends are like, youdon't have that.
Stop saying that it's notsomething, it's something you're
internalizing when it's not yourfault.
You know, like you said, youwere treated as an imposter,
that you didn't belong there.
Not that you didn't work yourass off to be there.

(01:06:27):
So it's the same thing whereit's like when in schools where
it's like, oh, you got inbecause of, um, What is it
called?
Uh,

Jann (01:06:34):
action.

Joi (01:06:35):
exactly.
Yeah.
And I was gonna actuallymention, like, when you said
that you were very boisterousand happy and outgoing in high
school, was the race differencesdifferent from your college life
as well?
Like how she was Elizabeth inher school because she said she
was surrounded by a blackcommunity that, so that helped
her and, and supported her, andthen she went to a white college

(01:06:56):
and it was nothing, you know?

Jas (01:06:59):
Yeah, that that pretty much happened with me.
Well, we actually went to aschool that was majority black
for.
More than half of our, our, um,you know, elementary school,
middle school, and it was mylast year of middle school.
We moved to, I'm not gonna sayan all white school, but it was
definitely way more whitepeople, majority white school,

(01:07:21):
but they were still a, a nicebig community of black people
and then other people of color.
So it didn't affect me.
The same way that it did incollege where the percentage of
black people was so much smallercompared to the percentages like
it was in high school.
And for a lot of my classes, Iwas taking a lot of AP classes,

(01:07:44):
I was taking a lot of artclasses.
And unfortunately I didn't see alot of people in those same
classes with me who looked likeme.
Um, so especially dorm livingwas probably the hardest part
because some of the, for a lotof the people I went to college
with, they had never, they hadnever talked to black people.

(01:08:04):
They didn't have any blackfriends and they were just
saying whatever was on theirmind to me.
And it was just like, I couldnot escape it.
I was living in it.
I, there was no safe space forme to just like be myself.
And they're like, Hey, I justexperienced five different
racist things today and thesepeople are none the wiser.

(01:08:25):
Like they're saying racist shitwhile laughing.
Um,

Jann (01:08:29):
it's like, sometimes it's a microaggression, but there was
one time, and I'm sorry, I'm notgonna like keep doing personal
stories.
This guy that was like the classclown, everyone loved him.
You know, like had to be thecenter of attention.
But everyone, no one caredbecause he was lovable.
Um, literally picked up aNational Geographic with the
African tribe on it.

(01:08:50):
Brought it to me in the front ofclass and said, Hey look, your
cousins are on the cover.

Jas (01:08:55):
oh my God.

Joi (01:08:56):
did we fight or like, did you get suspended?

Jann (01:09:00):
Like, how do you,

Jas (01:09:01):
And that's what I will say too, just jumping back into my
story about college.
It's not just the students, itwas also the professors.
I can't tell you how manyclasses I was in where they
bring up race.
I'm like, Jasmine, is that true?
What am I, the race person now?
Like, I'm just black.
I just happen to be here.

(01:09:21):
And now you just, you just outedme and said, Hey, you're
different than everybody else.
Won't you tell us for our ownentertainment and your
uncomfort, your discomfort.
We don't care about yourcomfort.
So all that to say is collegewas really hard, very, very hard
for me at least starting offbefore I, I found my way to the

(01:09:41):
black community and it, I had towork really hard to find it.
You had to be in the blackstudent Union.
You had to like figure out theparties that were happening.
Um, that were specifically forlike sororities or fraternities
or things that were happeninglike that.
And even with that, there was ahuge discrepancy between what
kind of support the blackcommunity received for the same

(01:10:04):
type of events that the whitepeople were receiving.
And it is just like, yeah.
All that to say is you get real,uh, you, you learn quickly to
just shrink, shrink yourself toavoid more ridicule, to avoid
any other things that couldpotentially be damaging.

(01:10:27):
And it's, it's all just toprotect yourself.
It's not something where I'mtrying to like, look good in
front of people.
I just don't wanna hurt anymore.

Joi (01:10:35):
Do you think that, so she mentioned in the book that the
teachers in her high school weredifferent.
They always raised theirstudents up, supported them,
told them that they could dowell.
And when she went to college, itwasn't the same.
Not only'cause it was white, butbecause it was a whole bunch of
more students, you know?
And I'm wondering what is betterfor us as a community, should we
go out into these white spacesto diversify them, even though

(01:10:57):
emotionally, physically, like itcould be traumatic, you know,
trying to, um, navigate thesespaces.
Or would it be better to stickto the HBCUs, stick to places
where it's like more us there,you know, like where you guys
sit with

Jann (01:11:11):
feel like it, it's definitely gonna be a.
Personal decision, you know,because you could just wanna go
into robotics and wanna go tothe best school for robotics.
That's not necessarily gonna beH B E C U, but it could be, you
know, like sometimes you wannamake decisions that aren't based
on race.
Uh, I will say that that is oneof my biggest, like, um, is what

(01:11:34):
is a fomo, but in the past it'snot Fear of missing out, but
feeling like I did miss out.
Like I would definitely go tothe H B C U if I could.
Yeah.
It is not like I regret itnecessarily.
I kind of want both experiences.

Joi (01:11:48):
Yeah.

Jann (01:11:49):
but yeah, I would definitely go, if I could go
back, I would go to A H B C U,but I know that's not gonna be
the solution for everyone, youknow?

Joi (01:11:56):
Right, because eventually you do have to enter some spaces
that's not as diversified, but,um, I feel like we have a way of
finding each other anyway, evenin those spaces to

Jas (01:12:06):
I, I,

Joi (01:12:07):
mm-hmm.

Jas (01:12:07):
yeah, I I hear you Joy.
I honestly, my answer wouldprobably be, I would just get
out of the United States soonerand see the rest of the fricking
world.
I feel like we base so muchstuff on race in the States and
like literally the entire worlddon't do that.
Like, don't it, it not to thedegree that, not to the degree

(01:12:29):
that the United States does it.
Um, like where we have to belike, yeah.
Anyway, I know there's racism inother places.
But like having this traumaticof an experience going because
of your skin color.
Like, yeah, I'm sure you couldstill have traumatic experiences
because of being a woman,because you're a foreigner,

(01:12:49):
because you have a funny accent,because you dress funny.
Like there's so many thingsthat, you know, can make you
stand out and be different.
But I think what's moreimportant is knowing that like,
you can be in a place where it'sokay to be who you are at the
end of the day.
I don't, sometimes that can bean H B C U sometimes that could
be an international college.
That could be at a, in a whiteschool if you know like what

(01:13:11):
your community is and you havethe knowledge.
I, I didn't, I did not have, Iwas not prepared to go into a
white college and deal withpeople who have never had black
friends.
I didn't even know that waspossible.
I had, most of my friends areblack, but I still have people
of different races who are my,how could you go through life?

(01:13:33):
And not have any people of colorwho are your friends.
Like that says a lot

Jann (01:13:37):
I had, if I had a dollar for every person when I got to
college, that told me I was thefirst black person they met.
I swear it happened way toooften.
So, yeah.

Joi (01:13:52):
Can I say though, that you both went to college in Northern
Ohio?
So it is like, not to beexpected, but it's like, huh,
you know, don't really see like,um, Too many people out there,
you know?
Um,

Jas (01:14:06):
grew up in northern Ohio where there was a huge black
community.
Like it's just so

Jann (01:14:12):
Black day camps, everything.

Jas (01:14:14):
Exactly.
We were so black.
Our whole upbringing was soblack and like it went from, we
used to seeing the blacknational anthem every day.
You know, we went.

Jann (01:14:26):
so many people, so many people don't even know there is
a black national anthem.
Was it somebody, and I can'tremember who it was, told me
that someone thought, I believeI could fly by r Kelly was a
blind.

Joi (01:14:40):
It,

Jas (01:14:45):
I mean, in the nineties.

Jann (01:14:49):
In the nineties, it kind of was.

Joi (01:14:53):
it was,

Jann (01:14:57):
Yeah.

Joi (01:14:57):
I was just wondering.
Yeah, I was just wondering justbecause like, Yeah, I was,

Jann (01:15:09):
go ahead, joy, please.

Joi (01:15:11):
I was just wondering because when she said that she
would, um, even reach out to herteachers and they would meet her
with nothing in college, it wasjust kind of shocking.
And I was wondering if thathappened to y'all too.
Like if you even reached out andtried to get closer to your
teachers.
They're like, it don't matter.
You're not supposed to be here.
You're gonna fail out anyway, sowhy waste my time?

Jann (01:15:32):
I've had that experience with some.
Some of my professors, thecomputer science class in
particular, um, I failed thefirst time around because I had
never experienced something likethat before.
And then the second time around,of course I aced it.
Um, but the professor, like, Ithink it, I assumed it was for
everyone.
Like you go to office hours andhe wouldn't be there.

(01:15:54):
You would email him and hewouldn't respond.
Like if you asked him a questionthat he thought was beneath him,
he had an attitude the wholetime answering it.
So I ended up avoiding him andended up failing the class.
Um, so there were some likethat, but I also had a lot of,
of teachers who I was in, um, aart program which was majority,
like 99.9%.

(01:16:16):
Non-black students, like it wasme and two other black students
there, you know?
Um, and whenever I turned in anassignment, it was more so the
professor during critiquesaying, this is good, but it
doesn't really talk about yourexperience, you know, the black
experience.
I'm like, this was an assignmenton light exposure.

(01:16:37):
How black can I make it likenext time I'll take a of fried
chicken.
Will that be better for you?

Joi (01:16:45):
Don't forget the watermelon for a side baby.
I,

Jas (01:16:51):
your, your question, joy, as far as like the teachers, I,
I can speak from guidancecounselors, so I remember in
middle school, middle schoolbefore we moved and middle
school, um, no.
Yeah.
Middle school before we moved,we had a guidance counselor who
saw us out.

(01:17:11):
She found.
Every black person who wasgetting ready to go into high
school, this was in middleschool, and say, Hey, you, I
haven't talked to you yet.
Come to my office at this timeso we can talk about your
colleges.
that.
that was a completely differentexperience.
And then in college, like noguidance counselors taught me

(01:17:31):
how I had to figure out who myguidance counselor was.
And then when I went to them,she was like, and what's funny
is they're both white women.
I'm just gonna throw that outthere.
When I went to the one incollege, I'm like, okay, I just
graduated.
I went to school in New York.
Like I did all theseextracurriculars.
Like I'm mean, I was likeknocking it out of the park.

(01:17:53):
I was expecting her to like do alittle research on me.
I had just threw this massivefashion show that everyone was
talking about at the college.
And when I got to her, she waslike, okay, who are you?
All right, so what do you wannado?
All right, so you can work forthese companies at Columbus, I
guess.

(01:18:14):
And I'm like, okay, like how doI go about finding a job?
Well, here's a link.
Go to Indeed here, go toLinkedIn.
It was 10 minutes.
Like she showed no interest inme.
Like she, she had never met withme before.
She didn't try to schedulesomething else.
It was completely useless.
Very useless.
Honestly, it like it, I thoughtthis whole department is

(01:18:38):
useless.
There's no point in me ever likecoming here.
Why do we even have this?
Like, is this what they're,you're telling me to go to
Indeed and LinkedIn to look fora job?
Like, are you serious?
So yeah, just a very

Jann (01:18:50):
paid for.

Jas (01:18:51):
Yeah, very different.
But then like I said, I had acounselor in middle school.
I'm not even about to go tocollege.
She is seeking out everybodywho's about to go to high school
and be like, listen, here arethe different colleges that have
like different programs thatwill be good for what you're
interested in.
Here are the differentscholarships for, um, being
black and having a 3.5 g pbecause you have good grades.

(01:19:13):
It, yeah, that, I feel likethat's how it should be.

Jann (01:19:16):
I feel like the conversation of having the
difference in students' liveswhen you have counselors and
teachers that are engaged andwant to be there, rather than
people who are like punching inand collecting a paycheck is an
hours long conversation.
Like I can, I can talk aboutthat forever.
Joy.
I am sure you can talk aboutthat forever because that's your

(01:19:38):
field.
Um, I.
But yes, absolutely.
It makes a huge difference.

Joi (01:19:44):
it makes a huge difference.
That's something that I strivefor to be that person.
Like, Hey, you get in here,let's talk.
You know?
But, um, my thing, even workingwith little ones, um, you know,
you can tell the people who arethere for a check, you know,
clock in, clock out, and theones that care, the ones that
decorate the rooms, the onesthat, you know, use a little bit
of their own money to helpeducate the kids further than

(01:20:05):
what the government provides.
You know?
Um, and that's something youshould strive for.
'cause I feel like even in herbooks, she was like, you know,
The difference was night and dayand what's the point of going to
an education field when youdon't wanna educate or, or lift
up the next generation?
Why are you closing doors behindyou that you walk through ins
instead of having it, holding itopen for the kids coming up, you

(01:20:28):
know?
Um, so that's something that'sreally important to me
personally, especially withblack kids coming up that um,
you know, they come frombackgrounds.
I remember she said that sheused to sneak out for lunch and
she would watch these peopleeven though they were in the
ghetto and the hood, you know,they had nice cars and stacks of
money and like, that could neverbe me.
Like, I don't even know how toget from point A to point B.

(01:20:51):
And I feel like that's whereteachers come in and educate,
you know, like, Hey, you can dothis.
You know, I came up from it.
I mean, I'm a teacher inAmerica, you know, I don't have
stacks, but I'm doing prettyokay and I want you to do
better.
You know, this is what I know,this is what I've learned.
Go for, go past me.
I want you to do better thanwhat I did.
You know?
And I think that's veryimportant to someone's being

(01:21:13):
brought up, especially in aplace where it's harder, um, you
know, it's more dangerous orthey don't see the, um,
necessary things you have to doto get to be a lawyer or
whatever you want to do.
Like the sky's the limit.
And I remember when she said toothat, um, a lot of kids were
told, you're never go tocollege.
You're not good enough tograduate high school.
You know?

(01:21:34):
And that it made me think backto when we were growing up and I
was actually shocked.
I was even in high school and Iwas like, Hey, I never heard
that.
You know, you don't go tocollege.
I've always been told we go tocollege after high school.
And when I learned that peopleweren't gonna college after high
school that I graduated with, Iwas like, I didn't know it was
an option not to go.
I remember coming home tellingmom, like, I didn't know there

(01:21:54):
wasn't an option to not go toschool.
And she's like, yeah, it's not,where are you going?
You know?
So it was just the way that itwas constantly ingrained to us,
um, that we're gonna go tocollege, like, you know,
secondary school after highschool.
So, um, I think it's interestingjust the ways that you kind of,
you know, the upbringing reallyhelps.

Jas (01:22:14):
Yeah, for sure.

Jann (01:22:15):
the upbringing and the teachers.
All right guys.
So the last point I wanted tomake was, uh, code switching,
um, leads to burnout.
So that's one of the points inthe book I thought, like was the
biggest takeaway.
I feel like, the fact that youhave to consider that doing all
these, like the code switchingdefinitely makes you feel

(01:22:35):
exhausted, but it actually isleaning to burnout and that, um,
puts a physical strain on you aswell as mental.
I know she talked a lot abouthow she lost her mom at 62, due
to a stroke, which is not old,you know, like, and the biggest
cause of strokes is stress.
So that's definitely somethingthat we all need to look out
for.
Like it's more than just yourprofessional success at risk.

(01:22:58):
it's your actual health and Ifeel like you need to take that
pretty seriously.

Joi (01:23:01):
Mm-hmm.

Jann (01:23:02):
Um, so I definitely wanted to call that out.
And then just one quick questionat the end.
if there was one question thatyou could ask Elizabeth Liba,
um, about her book or just aboutanything, what would it be?

Joi (01:23:14):
Uh, my thing that I kept constantly asking was like, why
LinkedIn?
Every time I, I'm not really,um, familiar with the website.
Uh, I know I have a pagesomewhere, probably two.
I forgot that I had one, but Inever logged in or anything like
that.
I'm like, you know, I'm oldenough to have Facebook, but
also young enough to haveTikTok, you know, so it's just

(01:23:37):
like LinkedIn.
I'm just like, there's Facebook,there's Twitter, there's
Instagram.
What?
It's with LinkedIn in 2020, youknow?
So, um

Jann (01:23:44):
feel like LinkedIn is like definitely a site that people
use when they're working incorporate America.
You know, like it's somethingwhere you can talk about things
that are relevant while alsonetworking.
Um, and that's my short answer,Ja, if you have another like
thought processes to whyLinkedIn?

Jas (01:24:03):
I, I, I agree with that.
I think LinkedIn is, you know,you can try to generate, like
put it by a generation, but it'snot really that.
It's like if you work in acorporate environment, you're on
LinkedIn.
It doesn't matter what age youare.
And what I do, like the factthat she's on LinkedIn, I follow
her on LinkedIn and she has aton of fricking followers, what
she talked about in the book,but she talks about things on

(01:24:25):
LinkedIn that make so many whitepeople uncomfortable.
And my favorite thing is seeingwhat she does in the comments.
And then my favorite thing thatshe does is people will be like,
there'd be a one white person,like, I don't understand Kiwi.
Explain this to me.
And she'll get in there and go,I don't have to explain anything
to you.
Look it up.
It's Google.

(01:24:45):
And I, I love that.
That's her whole.
And then she has a bunch ofother people who are doing the
same thing.
Um, so I love, she lives it,like she has this book and she
talks about all these things,but she is living her truth and
I love that about her.
And she's doing it on LinkedIn.
'cause that's the last place Iwould talk about race because
I'm terrified of soul.

(01:25:06):
Fire me on my, at my job.
Yeah, go ahead.

Jann (01:25:09):
that's why, yeah, that was what I thought you were gonna
get at Joy is why LinkedIn?
Because it's so risky.
Um, because it's supposed to bea professional space and white
people don't consider talkingabout race.
Um, relevant.
Like at all to professionalism,unless they're telling you what
you can't do.
You know?
So I thought that's why you saidwhy LinkedIn?

(01:25:30):
Because it was such a risk toher career.
And she did have that one storywhere she said a white man
reached out to her after sheposted something about how you
should not code switch at workand said, it's dangerous to tell
people this because at work youneed to have a more
professional, um, speech and youcan't, um, pretend like you're
at a ball game and talking shitto

Joi (01:25:52):
cussing and stuff.
Yeah.

Jann (01:25:54):
And her only question was why would you assume code
switching?
Like talking like how I normallytalk is talking trash.

Joi (01:26:01):
Yeah.

Jann (01:26:02):
And the only thing he could say is, I don't know why I
said that.
Like exactly.
It's very internalized.
And that's why I think shepicked LinkedIn because those
conversations need to be, had.

Joi (01:26:11):
Okay.
Because when I was reading it, Iwas like, it's almost like
posting, um, things like that onNextdoor.
Like I just like so unfamiliarwith the space, so I like what?
Like LinkedIn and I was like,can't you reach more people on
Twitter or Facebook or somethinglike that?
But I guess it makes sense.
Um, and if that's the case,yeah.

(01:26:31):
Mm-hmm.

Jas (01:26:33):
My question I have for Elizabeth is, Um, not, well, I
guess it kind of ties back towhy I gave it a four instead of
a five.
And I feel like something that'smissing is, she talks a lot
about how you can control you,right?
Like what you can do in theworkplace.
But I don't think she goes intoa lot about like, what you can

(01:26:54):
do to help your workenvironment.
Like how can you help, like,make your space a better space
outside of like

Jann (01:27:01):
Hmm.

Jas (01:27:01):
leaving, going to another place.
So I would've loved if there waslike more resources, like if I,
if she had maybe a place where Ican go, just download some
sheets.
Like, here you go.
Next time someone says somethingracist here.
Like, just take that burden offof me from having to do that
work.
And maybe just like provide moreguidance, like on how to further

(01:27:22):
educate people around me at myworkplace.

Jann (01:27:26):
Yeah, the only thing I saw mentioned is when she completely
said like, it's not your job toheal a space.
Girl leave.

Jas (01:27:35):
Exactly.

Jann (01:27:36):
That's all I heard her say about that.
But to your point, some peopledon't want to leave.
They want to make the situationbetter, which I feel is not
necessarily our responsibility.
But if that's what you wanna do,it would be nice if there are
more resources, um, available tohelp out with that.

Joi (01:27:51):
Yeah.
I think too that comes across,like, that comes again with the
health issue.
Like if you want to help, makesure you keep your health number
one too.
'cause that's been the highblood pressure and the stress,
you know, all that just kind ofadds up, you know, later down
the line.
Um, yeah.

Jas (01:28:10):
Hey there.
But one thing I will say, thereis a bit of privilege in saying
just leave, right?
Everybody

Jann (01:28:17):
Not everyone's in that position.

Jas (01:28:19):
Yeah, sometimes you don't have a choice.
I've seen some people gothrough, they are going through
emotional abuse on a regularbasis, direct racism, and they
can't leave their job becausethey're tied up in some way, one
way or form.
Um, so yeah, I don't thinkthat's always an option for
everyone.
So for those who it is not anoption, at least not right now,

(01:28:39):
give them the resources orprovide some kind of resources
and make it so that it's morebearable or at the very least,
like what to look for whenyou're job hunting, to know that
they're not going to be racist.
Because I've seen people too,they do the switch, right?
You go into a pos a position,everyone loves you.
They can't stop talking aboutyou.
And then once something happens,like you are the scapegoat, you

(01:29:00):
are the person that everyone hasa problem with, and now like
they're firing you for the sakeof saving someone else's ass.
So yeah, something like that Ithink would be helpful because
it's, it's, it's not exactly theeasiest thing to pinpoint.
There's some things you can pickup on, but like, Yeah, it's not
always a sure thing thatsomething's wrong with the

(01:29:20):
environment.

Joi (01:29:21):
Mm-hmm.

Jann (01:29:23):
What I would like as a resource is for someone to like
really simplify hr because Jass,I know you've and I have had
this conversation where there'ssome things that so overt that
you should report it to hr, butyou're still, or at least I'm
still sort of afraid ofretaliation because HR is
supposed to protect you fromthat.
But what are the signs that HRis actually gonna protect you

(01:29:44):
from that, rather than takingthe company side and like
booting

Joi (01:29:47):
they're there for, right?

Jann (01:29:50):
like, yeah, I would love like a more comprehensive, like,
this is what you should expect.
This is where you should, youuse caution.

Joi (01:29:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, when you said, when shesaid, girl, just leave, but in
parentheses she should havelike, and have a job lined up
first.
Like, you know, have somethingin your back pocket if you can,
you know,

Jann (01:30:16):
So my question to the author would be, what was the
fallout of some of these things?
You know, I feel like the storyin particular that was the most
uncomfortable for me, where shesaid, speak out in the moment.
I just wanna know, like, did didit get worse before it gets
better?
did it immediately get better?
I know that story in particular,the woman said, I'm just

(01:30:38):
stressed out, and she sent heran email.
But what was her relationshiplike with her from then on out?
Was she more passive aggressive,but more slick about it?
Or did she actually change herbehavior?
um, yeah, I would, I would liketo know the fallout and what she
dealt with.
Like, what can you expect if youdo these things, you know?

Joi (01:30:55):
I have another question too.
I wanna know if she does yoga orsomething.
Like how do you get throughthese kind of things?
Like, oh, I wasn't, I was justin a bad mood, like, yeah girl,
so I'm, I'm at work.
Like, I don't take it out onyou, you know?
How does she kind of like, Getin the mindset of like, this is
very, um, offensive and I'mgonna take it professionally.

(01:31:16):
But you know, because I have a,

Jann (01:31:26):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well that was the last question.
Um, any final thoughts thatyou're like dying to get out
before we wrap up?

Joi (01:31:35):
um, I do, I kind of wanna explain why I gave her a four
and a half instead of five.
Um, even though I absolutelylove the book, um, my only thing
about that I will complain aboutis that, um, she kind of.
Brings up the same pointsmultiple times throughout the
book.
Um, like the amount of time shebrought up George Floyd, you

(01:31:56):
know, or, um, you know, justlike the brutality that police
have done and like when she gotarrested.
That's, I have one more questionabout that too, but, um, it's
just like, it seemed like itbounced around a lot in the
stories.
We kind of got repeats of thesame stories and I wish it was
just more like, like a littlebit more like cohesive, like,
oh, this is the story when I gotarrested and it reminded me of

(01:32:16):
like, you know, my parents,like, I can talk and be as like,
you know, as, um, acceptable tothe white community as I want.
They'll still arrest me, they'llstill kill me, you know, I'm
still a black woman, you know.
And then later on, like she'stalking about it again.
Like every time she mentionedGeorge Floyd, my heart skipped a
beat a little bit because I wasstill emotional about that, you

(01:32:37):
know?
So it is just like, okay, I gotit.
You know, like you mentionedhim.
Um, I don't wanna constantlythink about seeing that video
and stuff like when we're.
Um, during, through, throughoutthe book, you know, that was my
major issue with them, just likeI want it to be, this is the
section about George Floyd, thisis the section about like, you

(01:32:57):
know, on code switching, this isthe section about, you know what
I mean?
So I just feel like a lot of thetimes the chapters kind of ran
on when it did need to.

Jas (01:33:05):
I, I agree with that.
And I think too, you said youread memoirs.
I think that's probably why youhad that critique, because
that's one thing I love aboutmemoirs is like they have a
beautiful progression.
Like you would never think thissomeone's real life because they
like got that whole storylinegoing perfectly.
We're like, here's a climax, andlike, real life don't work like
that.
Like your life is like this.
But in the memoir, they got itgoing like this.

(01:33:27):
So, um, yeah, I can see that.

Joi (01:33:31):
My and um

Jann (01:33:31):
was gonna say that's just a symptom of self-help books,
which is why I don't like toread them too often.
Like it has to be specific tolike what I'm dealing with at
the moment because I start seskipping sections if I hear it
too often.
But that's something that theydo.
Like they'll mention one storyat the beginning, at the middle,
and then at the end again, andit's like six stories that you
could have gotten done in halfthe time, but for some reason

(01:33:53):
they keep repeating themselves.
So that's definitely somethingthat bugs me with all self-help
books.

Joi (01:33:58):
Okay.
So it wasn't just me.
I feel like I didn't want topick on her about that Exactly.
It's just like, I didn't care toconstantly read the same, um,
you know, story, you know, andeven when she, um, sometimes it
felt a little bit academic, youknow, with like, um, I love that
she had citations andeverything, but like sometimes I
felt like I was reading an essayfrom, um, a college student and

(01:34:20):
just like, oh, okay.
Like all the statistics.
And it's good to have thestatistic statistics and
background stories and, butlike, I had a whole story about
Oprah, Oprah Winfrey growing up,and a whole story about Michelle
Obama growing up.
And I know those stories.
I love those stories.
I love you're sharing with'em,but like, I feel like I'm here
for self-help and I don't needthe complete history of these
black women as well.
You know what I mean?

Jann (01:34:42):
I actually like that she added those stories in.
I feel like it gave context andjust because a lot of the
conversation around, um, raceand discussion of race is, okay,
this happened to you.
That doesn't mean it's a, likesocietal thing or it's like a
system, like it provided like,okay, these are successful black
women and it has also happenedto them.

(01:35:03):
You know, every single one ofthem have experienced this.
So you can't just say it isspecific to you, you know?

Joi (01:35:08):
But isn't there a way to say, Hey, Michelle Obama went
through this instead of having,uh, a page and a half about her
whole biography.
It was like a summary of thebook that I read above becoming
Michelle, you know, and samething with Oprah.
So I was like, yeah, I like, Ikind of knew this and like, it's
good that you put it in therefor people who didn't read the
book, but, um,

Jann (01:35:29):
That's

Joi (01:35:30):
don't think, I don't feel like it was necessary exactly to
have that much.

Jas (01:35:34):
Spoiler alert.
Yeah.

Joi (01:35:36):
Yeah.
But, um, that's kind of what Iwas

Jann (01:35:38):
I think there's a lot of people who aren't gonna read
those books that they need thebackground.
You know, like a lot of peopleonly know Michelle Obama as the
First Lady.
They don't know anything elseabout her.
So, um, I don't think theynecessarily spoiled anything
about the memoir.
Like, I think you should stillread it, but yeah, I do feel

(01:35:59):
like not everyone's gonna readit.
No, not everyone has.
So it helps.

Joi (01:36:03):
Um, the last question I did wanna ask you guys, um, about
this book was that, um, when shetold the story about her getting
arrested at the conveniencestore over the batteries that
caused 2 49, um, would you guyshave signed that paper and gone
on with your life or what?
Because I don't think I would'vebeen there.
I'm like, I would've actually, Iknow how she gets nervous'cause
I do the same thing.
I get nervous and I like startto fumble and shake a little bit

(01:36:26):
under pressure like that.
I'm like, listen, I got thereceipt.
Let me empty my bag out.
You know?
And when she said she actuallylike went through folders and
like, it was in a notebookbetween pages and they let her,
let her take her time to lookfor it.
I feel like they just, theyjust, um, made it worse quickly
for her and she didn't have thechance to actually find the
receipt, you know?

(01:36:46):
Or when she said, oh, couldn'tyou look at the cameras?
She didn't even say like, to thepolice officers, like, Hey, look
at the cameras.
I didn't even go over there.
You know?
So, um, I don't think I would'vesigned that paper either, but I
feel like if they came to thepoint that they were gonna
arrest me, I'm like, you knowwhat?
Lemme go ahead that paper.
I'm not back here.
Anyway, you.

Jann (01:37:03):
Yeah, I think the complicated part about that is
it seemed like it was a store.
She would have to go to a lotfor school, like a student union
type of store.
So I can see her like saying,oh, I, I have to come here.
Like, I'm not doing that.
I don't know what I would've didin that situation, but, um, I
can say that if she sued thatstore, I would've sued the
police department as well.

(01:37:24):
Like,

Joi (01:37:25):
Yeah,

Jann (01:37:25):
I don't understand why they sued the store and not to
the police department becausethey took their word over hers
without any proof.
Um, and they definitely couldhave asked to look at the
cameras.

Joi (01:37:36):
Right?
And only for 10,000 too.
That's too,

Jann (01:37:41):
well they said too, like, you're not gonna get rich off of
this, but you can make a point.
And yeah, I feel like I'm pettyenough that that 10,000 would've
felt real nice in my bankaccount.

Joi (01:37:51):
I like at least pay a whole semester.
I need a semester at least,please.

Jas (01:37:58):
I, I agree with, I agree with Jan.
I don't know what I would do.
In that situation, I, I feellike I've experienced so many
racist things and like I haveaddressed maybe 50% of the
racist things that happened tome.
And I think a part of that hasto do with what mentality I was
in on that day, or like, um, wasI in a safe space to say

(01:38:22):
anything about this thing thathappened to me?
Um, so yeah, I, I really don'tknow what I would do, um, in
that situation.
Something that I feel like I'vehad a really bad, um, experience
in, in one of my jobs, uh, thatI had to learn to speak up for
myself more.

(01:38:43):
And something that I, I realizethat we do a lot as black women
is when we are treated badly.
We take it for the sake ofkeeping the peace or for the
sake of like not wanna makeother people uncomfortable and
um, or just flat out like notspeaking up when you're not

(01:39:03):
getting the same treatment asthe people who may be paying for
the same thing that you are alsopaying for.
So I think a big lesson for menow is if I feel like I'm being
treated unfairly where I am in aposition where I can speak about
that primarily.
If I'm in a position where it'ssomething I'm paying for or
something I signed up for andit's not something that I could

(01:39:26):
lose my job and my wholewellbeing, then that's something
that I'm definitely going to saysomething about it.
And you know, I've been doingthat more, more and more lately
and it is still hard to do.
I am like anxious every singletime I have to do it.
And you really have to see likewhat type of men, mental state
you're in on that day.

(01:39:48):
To say like, can I, can I bearthis too?
So that would be my fault onthat.

Joi (01:39:54):
That's true.
It takes a lot of effort and alot of like self-control to kind
of get through a situation likethat too.
So I could see that.
Mm-hmm.

Jann (01:40:03):
All right guys.
Normally I would announce thenext book now, but it is the
last episode of the season.
Um, we'll let you know, uh, whenwe're gonna be coming back for
season two.
but in the meantime, jazz, doyou wanna let the people know
where they can find you?

Jas (01:40:17):
Yes, so you can find me on my blog at Blogging Money Life.
We're on Twitter, Instagram,Facebook, um, and of course you
go to our website for our blogand we're also on YouTube watch
our videos where we talk abouthow to grow your blog as well as
our journey when it comes tomoving to Costa Rica.
And you can also check me out onmy other blog, miss Millennia

(01:40:40):
magazine, and you can find us onall the socials as well at Miss
Mill Mag, m i s s m i l l m a g.
And I'll see y'all there.

Joi (01:40:49):
Listen to those credentials.
Look at all that black girlexcellence.
Yes.
Love it.

Jann (01:40:59):
All right, joy, you wanna do our sign off?

Joi (01:41:02):
Yes ma'am.
Lemme get my vocalizationscorrect so you can hear me.
on TikTok and Twitter, we'reblack girl Read Pod, B l K.
So b l k Girl Reads Pod.
And on Instagram, YouTube andFacebook, we're Black Girl Reads
podcast, B l k Girl Readspodcast and we hope to see you

(01:41:25):
guys there and follow and leavea review.
A good one.

Jann (01:41:32):
Leave a review wherever you're listening to this.
If you're watching on YouTube,please like and subscribe.
Um, it really makes a differencefor us.
All right, well thanks everyone,and we'll see you next season.

Joi (01:41:44):
two.

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Speaking with Power and Authenticity: 'I'm Not Yelling' | BLK Girl Reads Ep. 10

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Speaking with Power and Authenticity: 'I'm Not Yelling' | BLK Girl Reads Ep. 10