Marc and Claire Headley share their 20-year journey of relentless harassment from Scientology since escaping the Sea Organization in January 2005. They detail the elaborate surveillance, infiltration tactics, legal threats, and family disconnection policies the Church employs to silence former members who speak out.
• Left Scientology's Sea Org in January 2005 after 15 years inside
• Received "Suppressive Person declares" without their knowledge
• Scientology demanded $163,000 in "freeloader fees" for their freedom
• Private investigators constantly surveilled their home and businesses
• Phone records illegally accessed, trash collected, family connections exploited
• Scientology infiltrated their businesses and attempted to frame them
• Became FBI confidential informants in 2010 investigating human trafficking
• Considered witness protection due to severity of harassment
• Moved to Colorado in 2011 to escape intensity of Los Angeles surveillance
• Continue to face online attacks, hate websites, and periodic surveillance
• Have contributed to major documentaries, books, and legal cases against Scientology
• Despite attacks, they've raised three children while running successful businesses
The more you expose Scientology, the more they will attack you, but these attacks can be weathered. If you're considering leaving Scientology, focus first on rebuilding your life before speaking out.
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YOUTUBE PLAYLISTS:
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey guys, welcome back to the blown for good
channel.
I'm Mark Headley.
I'm joined here today by mybeautiful wife Claire.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey, hey, hey.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Claire, hey, hey, hey , and yeah, we're going to do a
live today, and today is goingto be a little bit different.
We don't really have a specificseries or topic that we're
talking about today, but, asusual, if you want to tell us
where you're coming from in thecomments, we usually like to let
people show up for a fewminutes and then we just call
out where people are tuning infrom, and anyone who comments is
(00:52):
automatically entered to win amerch giveaway.
That we'll do at the end of theshow, and so, yeah, let's go to
the comments and Claire willread these for you guys.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yep, yep, yep, anita.
Hello from the netherlands.
Nice karen ortiz.
Hello from northern california,hi.
Karen kb.
Hi from texas, mary k london.
Hi all from a scorching hotalbuquerque, new mexico.
Yep, it's definitely way hotterin albuquerque than it is in
(01:25):
colorado.
Uh, share.
Hello from the netherlands,also nice, there you go, hello
and we have a lot of netherlandstrevin on.
Good evening from thenetherlands.
Thanks for joining us, trevinon uh, here we go manon, hello
from the netherlands.
wow, way to go, awesome.
(01:46):
Kb dang, netherlands,representing impressive.
Yes, indeed, clara, netherlandsare repping in the chat today.
Yes, and thank you as always,clara, for being our amazing mod
.
We appreciate you.
Um, betsy, sue, just call mebetsy.
Greetings from cameron, northcarolina.
Hey, betsy.
Debbie dallas, texas, nice,lacey b, you're good.
(02:16):
Oh, did we freeze?
Oh, no, we're good.
Hey, yanson helloansen.
Hello from the Netherlands aswell.
Oh my goodness.
Boom Audie Zebra, hi fromMalden, essex, uk.
Awesome Things from Claire'shometown, manchester, uk, boom
(02:39):
Dorte, good evening fromCopenhagen, denmark, nice,
that's awesome.
Juliet, hi from Lancagen,denmark, nice, that's awesome.
Juliet, hi from Lancaster,pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Shout out to PA.
Yes.
I've done a lot of work in PAin the last few years.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yes M Hello from Washington State Hello.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Oh, there's a bunch more here.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
All right, we did that one Yep, yep, yep.
We got that one Yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
We got that.
Oh, look at that.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Love food.
Kitchen beard for good islooking excellent today.
It looks freshly trimmed.
I'm so grateful to have myhubby back.
It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I've been out.
I've been out.
I was in, I was in the South, Iwas in, um, I was in the south,
I was in mississippi andactually it's funny, I was at
one of our clients thatscientology sent a bunch of uh
emails to and they sent apicture of me passed out drunk.
And this is the client that putmy the picture that uh
(03:42):
scientology emailed them of mepassed out on Hollywood
Boulevard.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
From your first birthday out, from getting out
of the Sea Org from May 2005.
Yeah, so it's fair to mentionbecause it's 20 years ago 20
years ago and they put it.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
The client put it up on their notice board and they
said where was this guy when hewas here last?
So, yes, it was a great client,one of my favorite clients
actually and yeah, so it's allgood there.
Okay, I'm trying to think ofhow we want to do this.
We left Scientology in Januaryof 2005.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes, you left January 4th and I left January 24th
January 4th and I left January24th.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yes, and from the time that I left, they were
calling me.
You were calling me on theirbehalf.
My sister called me.
A bunch of people from theplace were calling me and
basically trying to convince meto come back.
I didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh, and David Miscavige specifically had
ordered that you be brought back.
He ordered Jenny DeVocht Linsonto bring you back, which is the
only reason I didn't make myescape sooner, because I had
this vision in my mind that Iwould be escaping.
Meanwhile they would havecaptured you, bringing you back
(05:01):
and I would still never see youagain.
So I had to bide my time.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, so up until you left, they were making.
It seemed like they were makingan earnest attempt to have us
come back and that they'dresolve everything, all of the
things that were going on, andthey were like you didn't do
anything.
It's all good.
This was a hugemisunderstanding and of course,
(05:27):
we're not going to get allexcited because you spent some
money on shipping or eBay feeson all the equipment that you
sold, and at this point I hadbeen sleeping and I had
equipment that they were goingto throw away.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Now, yeah, yeah we, we go.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I go into that detail in my book if anybody wants to
go out to in all the all the insand out of all the nonsense.
But regardless, for essentiallyan entire month you're not
going to be separated from yourwife and never see her again.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
After all big oopsies , Just come on back.
Everything's going to bewonderful.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, so I'm just trying to set this up so people
understand.
These attacks didn't just comeout of anywhere.
No, we were doing our thing andthey were doing their thing.
You left on the 24th, and thenthat's where we'll get into all
of the fun stuff.
So you left on January 24th.
(06:35):
The first thing thatScientology did was well, they
did try to intercept you whenyou escaped.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, they.
They followed me across statelines from California to Nevada
and tried to.
Well, they intercepted me atthe Vegas bus station, so the
only reason that failed isbecause I sat on my purse in the
middle of said bus station.
I would, I would love to beable to talk to somebody that
was there that day other thanthose people, but see what their
(07:05):
, their perspective was on whatwas happening yeah, so that
happened on the 24th and youprobably even didn't get to me
until the 25th, I think yeahright the 25th even the 26th
maybe in the 26th.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Once she arrives, then they send oh sorry, I
skipped one.
Ok, so then they write this SPdeclare suppressive person
declare which you should be ableto see up on the screen there.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, and, and also the very next day after I
escaped is when they called allof my family in Well, hold on OK
sure.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So we haven't done anything.
We haven't and we haven't evencontacted them since the initial
bout where they were trying toget a hold of me and you were
getting a hold of me.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
They didn't even know that you'd escaped, because I
wasn't.
I had had one phone call withmy family in between the time
from when you escaped to when Iescaped, but of course someone
was listening to the call andtold me ahead of time that I was
not allowed to tell my familythat you had escaped, which
ended up being helpful for me inthe end, which you'll learn
(08:15):
about in my book, but whatever.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, Anyway.
So the first attack was themdoing this suppressressive
person declare and similarly,they pulled in my family and
showed them that I had beendeclared and that you had been
declared.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yep and told them that they would never be allowed
to speak to us again.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, and now that's my suppressive person, claire.
That is the actual officialorder from Scientology, and in
here it says that I abandoned, Iabandoned my post and left.
It says that I escaped and itsays that you escaped, okay,
which which kind of comes inhandy later on.
But there's Claire'ssuppressive person.
(09:02):
To Claire and hers was on the27th of January, so just one day
after mine.
Now our families were shown allthese things.
We did not know that these,this existed, that these existed
, and for months after thisScientology we're still in
contact with us, likeeverything's fine.
We just want you to come back.
Yeah, but, but they didn't saythat they had already told our
(09:25):
families that we were declared.
No, no, and the only reasonthat we knew that?
Because, even though ourfamilies and I'm not going to
say who and all that, I don'twant to get them in any more
trouble we might have alreadysaid something, but who knows?
Either way, we were in touchwith some of our family members
and they had told us that wewere declared.
Yeah, even though we had neverbeen told that and we had never
(09:48):
been sent these declare orders.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In fact, to the contrary, I had emailed Kirsten
Catano from OSA about a weekafter we escaped and I said, hey
, we're in Kansas City, notcoming back, what do we have to
do?
Because I still was holding outhope for to somehow be able to
keep contact with our families,and so we actually had an email
(10:14):
from none other than GregWilhair, who was David
Miscavige's right hand man atthe time, that said nope, it's
all on hold.
You just have to come back andget interrogated and do all
their steps and sign theirpaperwork and all that.
So we and Mark never considereddoing that for even one moment,
(10:36):
but I did.
To be fair again, you know Ilove my family.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I was like, yeah, so that's a good point, because
you'll see up on the screen.
Now they sent us thesefreeloader statements.
Now Claire's is ninety sixthousand.
You can see there.
That's what they want you topay them for the courses that
you and any Scientologycounseling you did.
You have to pay for that as oneof the step.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
OK, so one of the steps.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Okay, so one of several steps you also have to
redo all of that is another step.
Yeah, but regardless, in orderfor us to talk to our families
again, we would have had to pay$96,000 for Claire, and then 67,
is that 67?
I can't see it.
It's too tiny.
But um, and now you can see,see claire.
Claire did a lot of scientologytraining and a lot of
scientology counseling and fromlooking at the list of things
(11:35):
that they're charging her for,and I did a lot of like audio
visual, just basic stuff, and Idid very to little.
I mean, they literally have ofscientology counseling.
They have um like fortythousand dollars in the 15 years
(11:56):
that I was in the seahorse, andalso they have all these
intensives of all that was thetom cruise auditing.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I don't know if they're if no, that was all the
interrogations and stuff thatthey did, it was not because
they.
The only reason they didn'tcharge for Tom Cruise's auditing
of you is because that wasstudent auditing, meaning he
wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't, hewas just training.
So you were his guinea pig.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, exactly so, regardless, in order for us to
see our families again, we wouldhave, after being in the Sea
Org for 15 years and justgetting out into the real world
and getting jobs.
Claire, I was fixing computersby the getting paid by the hour.
I think I was making around $50an hour, which was how much I
would make in a whole week if wegot paid.
(12:45):
I was making that much an hour.
Claire was working as a serverat a pizza restaurant and they
wanted us to come up with ahundred and basically $50,000.
That would be one of the firststeps in order for us to speak
with our families again.
We also would have to do.
There's a whole bunch of stepscalled the scientology a to e
steps.
(13:05):
Yeah, um, but regardless.
Um, I wasn't having any of it,um and we had, you know,
obviously.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Just we've been being paid if, if we were lucky, 46 a
week for 15 years.
We had no vehicle, no credit,no savings of any kind.
We had just barely escaped, andnow they're to.
You know the the prospect ofhaving to come up with $150,000
(13:38):
as just one step to ever speakwith our families ever again.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, guys are psychotic.
So I just want I just kind ofwanted to set that up as the
beginning, because then you cansee that we were just basically
doing our thing Right and thenthey were messing with us.
Yep, okay.
So in 2005, that's when most ofthis is happening, the back and
forth, all this good stuffSorry, excuse me, in the middle
(14:07):
of 2005, the South ParkScientology episode comes out.
Yeah, okay, and I watched thatwhole thing and then I asked
Claire is that the real thing?
She says yeah, basically.
I mean they pronounced feet andwrong, but besides that it's
all legit.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Which is a common mistake.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, anyway, before I forget, I have to tell
everybody this I watched aYouTuber.
He does like scandals and kindof scams on YouTube.
That's kind of what he mainlycovers.
And I've been watching this guyfor years, just here and there.
I don't watch every singlevideo, but I've watched a lot of
video.
He has a candy company and hegot scammed and the equipment he
(14:48):
was buying for his candycompany, all kinds of exciting
drama anyway.
But I went on YouTube the otherday and he did a whole episode
about Scientology.
Okay, it's a it's a substantialepisode on Scientology.
But my favorite takeaway hedoes do a lot of good reporting
(15:08):
on Scientology and covering ofdifferent things.
It's it's also a very kind oflike overview of a lot of this
stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
But my favorite thing is he calls David Misk.
He calls him David Miscavige,okay, and I just love that.
I think we just say that fromnow on it's Miscavige, anyway.
So I watched the South Parkthing and then I read all of the
(15:37):
upper levels of Scientology,the OT levels, the operating
fate levels.
These are the confidentiallevels that they make you pay
for, and you could pay basicallyup to a million to $2 million
to get all the way to the topand find out about all the.
That's where you learn aboutthe space cooties and Xenu, lord
Xenu, and all that good stuff.
Yep, okay, and I read aboutthose on a website called
(16:00):
Zinunet, which was being run bythis guy in Norway, andreas
Heldlund.
Anyway, we'll put links to abunch of these things in the
description.
Okay, in January 2006, I startposting on the Internet as blown
for good, because I don't wantthem to know who I am, but I
(16:21):
know that they're eventuallywant them to know who I am, but
I know that they're eventuallygoing to figure out who I am.
So I try to buy myself a littletime and post on the internet
for 2000, from basically, um.
2006 is when that starts.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yep, and meanwhile, at that time, I'm eight months
pregnant with our first son, um,and we've moved back from
Kansas City to Los Angeles andwe're renting a house there, and
yeah, so we're at least on ourway to getting our feet on the
ground, but certainly not in aposition to withstand brutal OSA
(17:01):
attacks, which is another hugereason why you were posting
anonymously.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, okay.
Now, in addition to us justbeing gone and not wanting to go
back to them, shellyMiscavige's sister, suzette, is
living with us.
Yeah, okay.
So Shelly Miscavige's sisterlives in the basically like a
guest house at the house thatwe're renting.
(17:28):
She's staying there as well.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
And her father, shelly Miscavige's father,
barney Barnett, is working forme as the handyman.
When Suzette had him come overto see her one time I talked to
him because I talked to Barneythroughout the 15 years that I
worked at the headquarters, Iworked with Shelley Miscavige's
(17:53):
other sister, clarice, and soBarney would sometimes call to
talk to her and then I wouldanswer the phone and I'd be like
oh, hey, barney, what's up?
Oh, let me see if I can go findClarice.
Okay, so I actually had spokento Barney maybe 10 or 15 times
over the years, just on thephone, and I'd chat with him
(18:14):
while they were trying to findClarice to talk to him.
Okay, so now Suzette is livingwith us.
It's 2006.
We're living in Burbank,california.
Suzette is living with us,Barney is working for me and
they have PIs watching our house, but the private investigators
they don't know who this olddude is, who's doing my handyman
(18:35):
work and he's coming and goingall the time.
Well, at a certain point Ithink they're trying to ambush
Claire or myself and come andspeak to her while Speak to me
while she's away, or whatever.
It's covered in a lot of thespy files when they were doing
this.
And if you want to look forthat, you can go to our channel
(18:56):
and look up the spy files and wego into that in great detail
files and we go into that ingreat detail.
Anyway, so when that ishappening and they're trying to
ambush Claire, some high leveloperatives from the Office of
Special Affairs, scientology'sDirty Tricks Department, they
come to the house and for thefirst time they see this
(19:18):
handyman that's being referredto by the PIs.
And then Kirsten Catano knowsthat that's Shelly Miscavige's
dad.
That's my handyman.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, and to be clear , we didn't know these PIs were
coming to the house.
They would wait until we weregone and they were just kind of
watching who was coming andgoing and identifying anybody
that we were in touch with forthe sake of data collection
anybody?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
that we were in touch with for the sake of data
collection?
Yeah, okay.
So when they find out thatBarney is my handyman, that's
when things start to go verycrazy, because now and also, by
the way, I was talking to Barneyhe would come over and he would
like he painted the house, hefixed the garage, he was doing
all kinds of stuff.
He painted the house, he fixedthe garage, he was doing all
kinds of stuff.
And the reason I was hiring himis because he was essentially
(20:06):
broke and he was not doing wellhealth wise.
And for his birthday he'stelling me that Dave and Shelly
are sending him Scientologylectures for his birthday.
They retail value are severalthousand dollars and I'm like
why don't they just give you thecash?
Why are they?
They have tons of money.
I don't know why they're notjust sharing it with you and
(20:29):
taking care of you.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah.
And so he was already battlingcancer at that point.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, he did have cancer, yeah, and he was not
really doing what he should havebeen doing to not keep having
cancer.
He wasn't.
He was kind of just like I gotno money, I got no time I'm
barely able to support.
He had a woman, a former SeaOrg member, and her child living
(20:54):
with him and he was sort oftaking care of them as well as
himself.
And anyway he comes and tellsme that he got pulled in and
that he made up this wholeelaborate story that I just
contacted him and I he was beingmy handyman.
He didn't know who I was.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
No, no, no, remember he cause he came to the front
door and he said okay, so listen, I got pulled in by OSA and
SecCheck, so I'm just I'm goinggonna tell you the story so that
we have you know everythingaligned so they match he wants
to make.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
He's like I gotta go get interrogated.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Let's make sure the stories and his and his story,
which is what we agreed with him, was the best way to go.
Was that?
Um, so our landlord, who ownedthat house, was not a
scientologist and had nothing todo with Scientology.
We agreed with him.
Yeah, that guy hired you, notus.
You have no idea who thetenants are.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You're just painting the house for the landlord,
which was solid, right, yeah, asmuch as it could be, but anyway
.
So when that happens, I amtelling him everything that's
going on at the base to Barney,so he knows about, well to be
fair.
So when that happens, I amtelling him everything that's
going on at the base to Barney,so he knows he knows about, well
to be fair.
So he had the daughter that wasliving with us, suzette.
He had Shelly Miscavige andthen he had Clarice, and all
(22:14):
three of his daughters were atthe base for years and he didn't
have that much contact withthem besides on the phone.
His youngest daughter had beenkicked out of the sea, org yep,
for more than a year and he hadbeen calling the international
base, scientology base, and theywere just telling him we don't
know where she is like we justcan't get a hold of her, even
(22:35):
though she had been kicked offthe property and they knew she
was in.
They had sent her to new orleansto do her katrina cleanup yeah,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
And she was a very and they were just taking phone
messages from Barney saying oh,we'll give her a message that
you called and you hadn't heardfrom her in.
Yeah, I think about a year.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, if you guys are seeing anything weird happening
on the stream, there's massivebody things in our network right
now that the Internet companycame and they rewired a bunch of
stuff, and whether it's worseor better than before they came
we don't know.
But it says we're good and wecan only do what we can do.
So if it freezes up once in awhile, we're sorry about that.
It's nothing we can control andaccording to our speed tests,
(23:17):
we have a very fast internetright now.
And it's just there's demons,uh, space cooties in there.
Um, okay, back to the story.
We'll zap them after the stream,folks yeah, we, we, there's
nothing we can do.
We did as much as we could dobefore, um, okay.
So, um, this during this timein 2006, um, I was also writing
(23:41):
magazine articles for us andLife and Style and In Touch and
all these different articles andthe journalist would basically
send me pictures and then Iwould just identify the people
in the pictures and then explainwhat wire they would be, in
whatever locations they tookpictures of them, and then they
make a cover story out of thatlocations.
(24:03):
They took pictures of them andthen they make a cover story out
of that.
And that was during the tomcruise and katie holmes kind of
courtship and making babies andhaving babies and all that stuff
.
So, um, okay, and then I'm alsoposting on the internet yeah
okay psychology.
during that time they have piswatching our house full-time.
They had infiltrated Claire'sbusiness and my business by
(24:26):
either having people that knowus report on us or actually
setting up fake clients that,like I, would go to a job and do
an estimate and then sometimesomehow they try to get me into
doing the project and then tryto sue me or say that we didn't
do something right or all thisstuff.
Additionally, we had aScientology spy that used to
(24:49):
work at the internationalheadquarters.
That was not in Scientology andhe very heavily encouraged
Claire to get into the realestate business and that he
could help her get a license andhe could help her do this.
And she did end up getting herlicense and she did end up doing
some real estate projects withthis guy and the reason that
(25:10):
they were doing that was so thatthey could tell they could
basically get basically tryingto frame me.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, they're basically trying to frame Claire
for real estate fraud and thenget her which is funny, because
when he was the the deal that hewas planning to set me up on, I
was like you know what I'm?
I'm not going to do this, I'mI'm too busy with because now I
have you know, our son is born,and so I had a newborn baby.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, I took.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I had taken the, the California realtor exam um in
Fresno when I was born in 2006.
Yeah, I took.
I had taken the the Californiarealtor exam in Fresno when I
was eight months pregnant.
I drove up there, took the exam, drove back Anyhow.
So I just was like you knowwhat you do, you, I don't, I
don't, I'm not going to do thisdeal with you.
And so I did not end up doingany transactions that he was
(26:01):
involved in, even though he wasvery much trying to get me to do
a transaction with him.
I was like, yeah, no, thanks,I'm good.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, and also we kind of suspected that there's
something off with this guy,because he was driving down from
Northern California to meetwith Claire and like be there
for a few hours and then hewould drive back to Northern
California.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I particularly knew him very well at all.
I knew who he was, but it's notlike he was our friend or he
just kind of showed up out ofnowhere.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, adam Parcell was his name.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, now, during that time, they also had all of
our phone records Yep, all ofour phone records, yep.
They had.
Our phones were either tappedor they had gotten into our
Sprint account and haddownloaded all of our phone
history so that they couldreverse engineer who we talked
to if they didn't listen in live.
They were collecting our trashevery week.
(27:02):
This is in 2006, a year afterwe left and I had only been
posting on the internet andwriting a few cover stories for
tabloids.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Okay, and, to be fair , the only reason you even
started posting on the internetin the first place is because
there were crazy stories aboutthings and you're like no, no,
that's not what happened.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
That's right.
That's what I was really tryingto correct the record of what
was on the internet of like hey,I don't know do with
Scientology.
They were actually following meto these different projects and
(27:53):
then they were sending privateinvestigators to my clients
because I was hiring ex-C orgmembers that had escaped from
Scientology.
I was giving them jobs andtrying to help them get back on
their feet, and then they wouldaccuse one of those people of
stealing computer files or this.
And then they'd go to my jobsites and say we're
investigating this person.
(28:14):
We were told he was workinghere and they'd create a big
scene at the site to then try toget my company fired from the
project because we're bringingall this drama to them.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And meanwhile they would constantly send private
investigators to our house,process servers to our house,
constantly send privateinvestigators to our house,
process servers to our house.
They had a private investigatorwho literally every single day,
would walk our neighborhood andwalk and see who was at our
house and and I remember tellingyou, uh, there's, there's this
creepy old dude who walks by ourhouse every day and he had one
(28:47):
of those big old transistorradios on his belt and like he's
got to be from Scientology.
And you were like no, no, it's,he's just an old dude that
lives in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I'm like I don't know , I was trying not to freak you
out, okay.
Anyway also during that time, Imet up and this is like two more
, like maybe 2007, 2008.
I was meeting up with um.
I met up with Jason Begay, whoused to be in Scientology.
We went to Germany, I want tosay in 2008.
(29:20):
Yes, 2008,.
We went to Germany and we didthis conference for this
European delegation of, likegovernment law enforcement for
many, many European countries.
They came to the house and gaveme these flyers.
We can put this back up now,now that I have this.
Oh man, where is it there?
(29:41):
It is.
Oh, what is going on?
They sent this flyer.
They gave Claire this flyer.
They sent this flyer.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
They gave Claire this flyer and they gave this to the
landlord of your businesswarehouse at the time.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, and they gave it to us at the airport when
Jason and I were leaving LAX tofly to Germany, and they gave me
the flyer and I was like, hey,I don't want to disappoint you,
but I don't speak or read German, so this is pretty much not
very helpful, you're featured onthe next page of this.
(30:17):
Oh, I am, let's see, oh look atthat I used to go to the
anonymous protests that werehappening in the early days of
Chanology against Scientology,and they had some pictures of me
at those.
Anyway, they were relentless inthe nonsense.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
They really were.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
And early on, and I think I want to say it was to
intimidate us to stop.
Like you got to stop this.
We're going to go, we're goingto, we're going to mess with you
.
And if you had just leftScientology and you don't really
have a life and you don't haveany way to make money and
everything you, that's a lot ofstress and work just to get on
(31:01):
your feet, yeah, much less withall this stuff happening
everywhere around you on anonstop basis.
I mean, there was one time whenthey followed me with it was at
least two or three differentprivate investigators.
I went to Jason's house.
He lived near the coast inCalifornia and I had I was doing
a bunch of jobs in like SantaMonica and Venice and those
(31:24):
areas and I would go up and seehim sometimes or I'd go help him
with some stuff and then theywould follow.
They would be camped outside ofhis house and then they'd
follow me to another client fromhis house.
So it was pretty much nonstop.
I think that's the last slidein that thing.
Yep, it is all early 2006, 2007, 2008.
(31:59):
In 2009, we worked with well,in a bunch of those periods we
worked with a woman named JanetReitman on an article that she
was doing for Rolling Stone.
Then we also talked to her alot more after that for a book
that she ended up writing calledInside Scientology.
We worked with Lawrence Wrightwhen he was writing the book,
going clear, yeah, we see,called four corners.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No, that one was the Australia one.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Oh, four corners he was Scientology no.
It was the John Sweeney.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yes, was John Sweeney Exactly, I can't remember the.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Scientology and right now Scientology and Me I think
it was called, yeah, scientologyand.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Me yeah, and then the Louis Thoreau documentary.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
My Scientology Movie.
That's right, I did that aswell.
Yep, that was a little bitlater on.
Yep, 2010,.
Well, and then 2009,.
I wrote a book aboutScientology called Blown for
Good Behind the Iron Curtain ofScientology.
And then in that same year, in2009, we actually launched a
lawsuit against Scientology forhuman trafficking, forced
(32:59):
abortions, non-payment of wages,labor law violations yeah labor
law violations, all this stuff.
Yeah, okay, and then in 2010,claire and I became confidential
informants on Scientology forthe FBI.
We were we.
They referred to us, as it'sfunny, because in Scientology,
(33:21):
ci means To as CI1 and CI2,which is confidential informant
one and confidential informanttwo, and there were many other
people that were confidentialinformants, but we just happened
to be one and two.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
And between us, we spent probably what.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Hundreds of hours.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, five days out there at the LA headquarters.
Everything was recorded,documented, like literally
basically went through ourentire life history, every
experience we'd ever had inScientology.
Who was involved?
What happened?
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Where things were.
They had.
They showed us drone, recordeddrone footage of the property,
multiple, multiple sessions.
And we would go through and saythey'd say, okay, where, where?
So they'd say where are allthese people going?
Who's this?
You could see, you could a lotof people you could recognize,
(34:21):
even though this drone isthousands and thousands of feet
above the ground.
They, you could, you could makeout shapes and sizes and people
and what the buildings andwhere they were going.
And so we went through a bunchof that stuff with them for many
years, I want to say probablytwo years at least.
We would speak to them on aregular basis, if not once a
(34:44):
week, once every few weeks, orwe'd go to the office and we'd
do another interview with them.
They would ask us about otherpeople who were out and if they
might be willing to speak andthat sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, and it was during that time that I
especially because we had nowtwo young kids I particularly
was getting really distraught bythe level of intimidation
following the privateinvestigators.
All of this because I was like,how seriously, what do we have
to do to keep our children safeand have our lives back?
(35:17):
And at a certain point we wereactually researching with the
FBI going into their equivalentof witness protection.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, to try to get out of Scientology, to get out
of the attack zone fromScientology.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, because, if you think about it, they had every
Scientology, had literally everypiece of information about our
entire lives.
So, like, even just considersecurity questions for a minute
what's your mother's maiden name?
Where did you go?
Where did you go to school?
What road did you live on?
In third grade, you know theyknew everything.
(35:54):
And after about the fifth timeof finding out that they had
illegally obtained our phonerecords, it was really really
really upsetting and frustratingand everything else.
So one of the agents washelping helping me particularly
look into like okay, well, whatit would look like is you'd get
(36:16):
a new social security number anda new name and this and this
and this and and I'm like, butthen what happens with the, the
three years of credit that we'vebeen working so, so hard?
to build up like we had nothing.
And she was like, yeah, that'sthe downside, that's going to go
down the toilet and we're justlike we can't do that.
(36:36):
Yeah, I had literally alreadyread like four books on how to
build credit.
I know every nitty grittydetail, down to way more than
you would ever want to know,about credit scores.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, anyway, so then the lawsuit ends in 2012.
Colorado right before that, in2011.
And in 2011, they actuallyvideoed us moving, like, while
we had a moving truck and weloaded it up and we were driving
(37:11):
away, they were driving next tous in cars with cameras out the
windows, recording us drivingon the 10 freeway going to
Colorado and moving trucks andour car and our van and all this
stuff.
And the funny thing is is onone of the hate websites
somebody sent to me, they saidthey left in the dead of the
night and I was like we left inthe morning.
(37:33):
You were recording us.
It was 11 am, it was daytime.
What are you talking about?
Anyway?
But regardless of that, when weget to Colorado and the lawsuit
ends shortly after that, that'swhen they start with hate
websites and they start a sitecalled who is Mark Headleycom
(37:54):
and they just put up the mostrandomly crazy nonsense stories
they can find on there.
This whole time I'm talkingabout there, this main guy,
david Miscavige, is beatingpeople up.
Um, um, they're not leave.
Um, there's people, peoplecommitting suicide.
There's all of these thingsthat are happening and they're
saying I'm licking crackers, I'mputting spiders in people's
(38:18):
desk drawers just nonsense.
And also that I was a terror atsix years old.
Like my body, thetans werealready fully taking over and I
was evil at six, even though Iwas in Scientology my entire
life and I worked for them.
I was, I was basically had somereally, really evil body things
(38:39):
and I was a bad person.
Okay, that website is still upto this day.
Right, that was in 2012,.
13 years later.
Is it 13 years?
Do I need to do I know math?
Yeah, 13 years later, theystill have this website up and
it's still talking about melicking crackers and being a
(38:59):
terror at six.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
And and they have one for me too, but mine just
points to yours.
I don't have a separate one,it's just a combination of all
of our stuff together.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
If you ain't got a site, you ain't doing it.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I do I do?
Isn't this the same as yours?
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Anyway, the other thing is that they post things
on Twitter.
They've got a Twitter account.
I don't know, I think it'scalled.
I can't remember what it'scalled, but they tweet things
out Now more recently.
I can't remember what it'scalled, but they tweet things
out.
Now, more recently, they'vebeen going wild.
They have.
They did a Freedom Magazinearticle when Going Clear came
out yes, and they put us on thecover of that.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Which was the comedy there is that you and I were not
in Going.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Clear, not the movie.
No, we were In the movie.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
No, we were in the book.
We were in the book and we werealso.
We were extensively involved inconfirming and corroborating
and all that worked with theresearcher extensively.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
But we're not actually in the movie, but
psychology didn't know who wasgoing to be in the movie.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
That's my point.
So they just assumed thatwhoever was in the book was also
going to be in the movie andthey did the cover based on that
, which was wrong?
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, and one of the reasons we even moved to
Colorado was because, when wewere working in LA, we both have
separate businesses.
Claire has her own company, Ihave my own company, and that's
what we do to make a living forour family.
That's how we support ourselves.
Is we both run our owncompanies.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And even that, by the way, was an intentional
strategy.
If we have two separatebusinesses, that are completely
not connected at all.
Not only will we be better ableto weather the ups and downs of
the economy, but also it willbe harder for Scientology to
destroy both of those.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yeah, and the other reason we both had our own
companies is because everycompany that we would work for
they either would haveengineered the job for us like
one of your first jobs, oh mygosh yeah.
You were working for a gal thatused to be at the base.
You were working with her at acompany.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
As was Suzette Shelley's sister, and literally
I finally figured out OSA wasliterally calling in the office
and getting reports women on,both Suzette and I.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
We knew that we couldn't work for somebody that
we didn't know was going to beloyal to us when Scientology
came, or that wasn't already.
Somebody already there wasn'tworking for Scientology,
reporting on us.
And both of the places that weworked when we first got out in,
when we moved back toCalifornia in 2000, late 2005,
there were spies at both ofthose companies that reported to
Scientology daily or weekly.
So we knew we had to start ourown thing, because Scientology
(41:58):
was literally in every singlething that we tried to do.
They had somebody in there thatwas just either trying to
sabotage us or reporting up onus.
So Scientology could dowhatever, just make nonsense.
So we had to set up our owncompanies.
And then, even when we set upour own companies in Los Angeles
(42:19):
, they were constantly messingwith us because we're right in
the heart of the Scientologynonsense.
They could send somebody tofour different clients on the
same day and they'd all bedifferent people because they
have so many resources in LosAngeles.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah, Like just as a as an example of the nonsense
that would happen.
One time in 2009, Amy Scobieand Matt Pesh came to visit our
house in Burbank, California,and we literally ended up with
an OSA film crew with like boomsticks and camera and everything
else and again in our frontyard in our front yard we have
(42:56):
two little kids.
There are like three and onenow.
Anyway, really frustrating.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, ok, so we moved to Colorado.
When we get to Colorado theyalso have private investigators
watching our house, watching mybusiness and still messing with
us.
But in Colorado they don't putup with a lot of that nonsense.
In California you can get awaywith stalking, because that's
essentially what paparazzi dothey're stalkers.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So if you prosecute, so the rules are less.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Well, they just don't enforce them.
You can follow somebody day andnight and harass them and try
to take pictures of them, andthat's an industry there.
Right, that's how they, that'show they stir up drama and news
stories to then promote a movieor promote a TV show or whatever
they're doing.
And so we moved to Colorado.
(43:50):
When we moved to Colorado Iactually befriended um, a police
officer in Castle Rock, and heread my book and then several
other people in Castle Rockpolice.
They basically knew, um, ifScientology, if there's
something happening, it's mostlikely going to be Scientology.
And very quickly Scientologylearned that that was not going
(44:10):
to be a viable situation forthem in Colorado.
So for the most part theprivate investigator drama kind
of died down or whatever they'redoing, they're not that obvious
.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
It's limited now to just drive by photography yeah.
Yeah, and so they can putupdates on their hate websites
anyway, which is funny becauseour neighbors will not put up
with nonsense on that front.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, we have a lot of.
We have a lot of.
We have a lot of support in ourneighborhood.
Yeah, and pretty much everybodythat knows us in our
neighborhood knows about theScientology stuff.
So there's not from us, butthey found out, yeah, about the
Scientology stuff.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
So there's Not from us, but they found out?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, anyway.
So essentially, from 2005 tonow, scientology has constantly
been attacking us and trying tosabotage our family, sabotage
our businesses, destroy usutterly, destroy us utterly.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Silence us completely .
Speaker 1 (45:11):
They're sending emails and letters and stuff to
my clients and tweeting aboutstuff and and so recently as
april it's non-stop, and I wantto say that in the past few
years it seems to they justamping up as much as they can.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, I mean well, between just talking about
Scientology on a regular basis,my testimony in the Danny
Masterson trial as an expertwitness, the work we do through
the Michael J Render AftermathFoundation, the billboards, you
name it I mean there's a longlist of we're always.
(45:56):
We always have ongoing projects, side projects and guess what
Scientology here?
Speaker 1 (46:03):
let's do it, going for the close up here.
We've got so much more thatwe're working on.
We have so much stuff that weare working on.
Yeah, that's going to beamazing and productive.
Yep, there is a lot of we'vedone.
I mean we've done everything.
We've done TV shows, we've donearticles, we've done YouTube
(46:28):
videos, we've gone on otherchannels.
We've done YouTube videos,we've gone on other channels.
We've tried to do as manydifferent media, platforms and
methods to disseminate theinformation, the true
information on Scientology, andwe've done it consistently.
So we might not always be onYouTube, but we are doing other
(46:50):
things in other mediums.
Youtube's not the end-all,be-all.
I like YouTube because we havefull control over what we do.
Claire and I have participatedin many shows that are amazing,
shows that never see the lightof day.
They get produced and then,right before they get greenlit
to air or go get sold to thisstreaming service or whatever,
(47:13):
scientology sends them a legalletter and then they just hose
the whole thing down and neversees the light of day.
Yeah which is frustrating.
It is frustrating, but at thesame time, when we do YouTube or
when we do X or Facebook, theyhave no control.
So when we do a stream likethis, maybe 5,000 people watch
(47:34):
it, maybe 10,000 people watch it, and maybe it freezes right in
the middle while we're talking.
Whatever happens, we havecontrol over it and it can go
live and they can't really takeit down.
So, and and also I do want tomake this clear point that this
(47:54):
entire time we have had to raiseour family.
We have three young, we havethree boys, and they have been
attacking us while we're tryingto raise a family and run our
businesses.
And all this and as a hobby,expose Scientology as our sort
of after dinner job.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah, Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Anyway.
So I just wanted to give youguys, because a lot of people
are like why I get thesecomments, like why are they
attacking you so much and whyhas this been going on for so
long?
It's because we've been doingthis for since 2005,.
We basically for 20 years we'vebeen um, we're, we've been
doing this work and they arevery not appreciative of it.
(48:41):
And, um, david Miscavige is um,he, he is a a very vindictive
person.
He really really holds a grudgeand he, he, he, really I do
believe he believes thescientology policy of destroy
them utterly.
(49:02):
Yeah, um, and who knows?
They, they, I don't know whatelse they can do, but again,
we've been exposing Scientologyand the practices and the abuse
and they've been telling shitstories about us and just being
chaos monkeys in our life andtrying to not even say.
(49:23):
I don't even think there'sanywhere where they're saying
this stuff didn't happen.
They're just saying these guysare evil, mark and Claire are
just evil people.
They don't say we don't abusepeople, we don't lock people up,
we don't take away people'spassports, we don't intercept
their mail, we, they're notsaying any of that.
They're actually, to thecontrary, they're saying they
have admitted in many cases.
(49:45):
Yeah, we do all that, but it'sbecause we're a religion and
that's our doctrine.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
We're allowed to do that, and let's not forget too,
there were a number of yearswhere they were telling people
leaving Scientology, you cantalk to whoever you want, it
doesn't matter if they'redeclared SP or not, but do not
speak to Mark and Claire.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
So we're going to be doing some more videos sort of
like this that are coming up.
So we're going to be doing somemore videos sort of like this
that are coming up.
We're going to actually betelling the stories of specifics
of things that they did.
We're going to try to do morestuff like that.
We do like doing the lives andanswering questions and stuff
like that, but we also want totell this story that.
(50:34):
But we also want to tell thisstory and really so
Scientologists, or people thatare thinking that are
Scientologists, that arethinking of leaving Scientology,
can see all the specific thingsthat they're doing and in an
effort for them to understandhow they should leave or ways
they could leave, that maybewould be more productive.
Obviously, exposing Scientologyis going to open you up for
(50:57):
attacks from Scientology.
That's in their DNA.
That's how they I don't know.
I just saw the screen wentblack.
Anyway, they are going to messwith us and they're going to
mess with you.
If you expose them, they'relikely going to mess with you.
Yeah, how much they mess withyou is probably directly
(51:19):
proportional to how much youexpose them.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
But nonetheless, it's a storm that can be weathered
and you whoever wants to speakout against Scientology, please
do.
You know it was very lonely inthe early days, I would say,
when we started posting andspeaking out.
There were not a whole lot ofpeople doing that, but anyway,
for everyone who's had thecourage to do so, wonderful.
(51:44):
Even in our case, like thephoto that they sent of Mark
factor in, that was from photothat they sent of Mark factor in
, that was from what 20, 20years ago, 20 years ago photo
from 20 years ago is all thatthey have on Mark.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
So you know it is what it is, guys.
And also I know, um, I knowthere's all sorts of other drama
that's happening on theinternet in all sorts of other
factors, not even have to dowith Scientology.
So to me it's sort of like itis what it is.
If you want to know aboutScientology, we'll tell you
about Scientology.
If you want to know about thedrama that happens in
Scientology, we'll tell youabout that, and we'll try to
(52:24):
help you, as much as possible,navigate what is going to happen
if you leave and certainly whatwill happen if you expose them.
And I wouldn't wish that uponanybody who's first leaving.
Yeah, because when you firstleave, you've got work to do.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, the focus needs to be on getting back on your
feet and recovering from oftendecades or an entire life of
trauma.
A lot of steps that one cantake to just get to where you
(53:02):
know what if you decide to speakout like.
Catherine Olson is a wonderfulexample, and of that, um, we
broke her out in June to 2021.
And when she first got out, shedefinitely was not ready to.
There was, you know, the thefocus was on getting a driver's
license teaching.
There was, you know, the thefocus was on getting a driver's
license teaching her to drive.
(53:23):
You know, getting a resume, allthose really really important
life things.
Um, anyway, there you go, justas an example.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Okay, good, I think we get, I think we did.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I think we covered a lot of ground.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Um, if you want to go and look at whoismarkedleycom,
I don't recommend it, but if youwant to, At least use a VPN you
know bag up before you get inthere.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
Somebody emailed me the other day and they were like
you know you can use a VPN.
I'm like, I know I can use aVPN, but I'm the intended
audience.
Why on earth do I want to gowatch their nonsense it's all
full of lies and it's all fullof lies and watch my family
members speak shit about me?
No, thanks, like it's not.
That's not a fun for a Sunday,it's not fun for any day.
(54:05):
So if I watch it then thenthey've accomplished their
purpose.
So you know, thanks, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Okay, good, should we do a giveaway?
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Okay, let's do a giveaway.
Let me see if I get this workedout.
Oh, look at that, it workedperfectly, okay.
Um, if you've typed a comment,it says there's 60 entries.
I don't know if there's 60comments, but I'm going to go
ahead and draw and uh hopefullyour internet challenges have not
messed with this, but whateverit is, we're doing it.
We're doing it.
(54:38):
We're just going to givesomething away.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
We're going to give.
Whoever wins.
They can just send me an email,claire, at blownforgoodcom, and
tell me what they'd like fromeither.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Bina Beck 33.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Nice, there we go.
Congratulations, bina Beck 33.
Send me an email with what youwould like.
We have all kinds of goodies onthe BFG merch store and on the
sp shopcom.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
Um yeah, so just shoot me an email, awesome, okay
, let's go back to oh, oh, whathappened?
It won't, let me do it there.
It is um, okay, um.
Do we want to do?
Um.
Do we want to answer somecomments?
Yep or we want to read somecomments or whatever other
questions, because it questions,because it, here we go.
Here's one.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Okay Question you go through so much nonsense for
just doing the right thing andexposing Scientology.
Have they generally left yourkids alone or do they get hassle
now too?
Hope they don't.
Yeah, we've had conversationswith our children just to make
sure that they understand that,because you know they.
(55:41):
We've always kept it ageappropriate but to help them
understand that we have to keepthem safe and so forth.
So no, it's been minimal.
In fact, when Leah ReminiScientology in the Aftermath
show came out the aftermath showcame out, conversely we had
(56:03):
teachers reaching out to us,multiple teachers saying
literally we will protect yourchildren and do whatever.
We will call the police ifanyone tries any nonsense, which
was obviously deeply moving andreally meaningful to both of us
.
So yeah, that's my answer.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
KDD question.
If they had stopped you goingto your eye appointment, Claire,
do you think you would havestayed or found another way to
escape?
Ps?
Love my BFG hoodie.
If they had succeeded?
So if I hadn't made it to theeye appointment, I would have
kept trying, but it would havedefinitely gotten harder and
(56:48):
harder because I had already.
They were actually trying tointerrogate me the day before
going to that eye doctorappointment and I didn't know
how long I could hold out on.
You know, when they exert theirmental pressure, it's gets
really, really sticky, to put itmildly.
So I would have kept trying.
If they, if they, had succeededin intercepting me in that Las
(57:10):
Vegas bus station, they wouldhave, I would have been under
lock and key for years.
So I um?
Is this the period where Markhides messages in diapers?
Trevon, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (57:25):
So during this time this is a good one actually Um,
that was in the early like 2006,2007 period when we had young
children.
They were, we knew, I or Ididn't know, but I really,
really suspected that they wereum, were taking our garbage and
they were going through thegarbage.
So I would write random phonenumbers on post-it notes and
(57:46):
then I would put those in withthe dirty diapers that we would
throw away.
And anyway, I did have some fun.
Ok, I'm not.
You know, I'm up for a littlebit of nonsense too.
They don't get to have all thefun.
Speaker 2 (57:57):
Yeah, mark got a real kick out of when we actually
got written confirmation thatthey were collecting our trash.
He thoroughly enjoyed that itwas during our son's diaper
years, and yeah so there wasplenty of poopy diapers that
they would have had to searchthrough.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
So yes, oh, thank you , Tricia, for the super chat.
We appreciate that.
I do want to mention thatanything, any super chats or any
things that you send to us onthe blown for good channel,
those support the channel.
If you get any of the stufflinked in the videos that we do
on our channel for the SP shopthe bobble heads and the SP
(58:37):
bracelets and fake Navy Davydolls.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
Don't be Colty these guys over there.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Those all go to support the aftermath foundation
.
Um, and then, blown for goodbooks and any blown for good
merch branded merch is supportsthe channel.
Um, we have, uh, we have a fewmore questions.
Uh, here we go.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
Okay Comment they say that a person can leave on
their free will but at the sametime, they would tell people not
to talk to you.
That is wired altogether.
Yeah, everything thatscientology says pretty much,
especially when it comes toleaving freely, is complete
garbage and anyone in inscientology currently, past,
(59:19):
future will agree with that.
You cannot just leave.
I think Mike Rinder said itbest the difference between a
cult and a religion is whathappens when you try to leave.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
So yeah, yeah, and they also.
I think that person meant totype weird, not wired, but
anyway.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Weird.
Exactly At what point did eachof you stop believing in the
belief system of Scientology?
Was it long before you left, ordid you only start
deconstructing it afterwards?
You?
Want to answer that first.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
I mean I, when I I don't think I think before I
left I was sort of I kind ofrealized that.
I was sort of I kind ofrealized that, um, I think I
realized that it was a uh a uh ascam because they were being
lied to at the base.
(01:00:09):
And then when I realized thateverybody was being lied to all
Sea Org members, all staffmembers, all Scientologists, I
think when I realized thateveryone was being lied to,
that's when I was sort of like Idon't even care if it's real,
if it's fake.
I didn't know about the spacealiens when I was in Scientology
.
But when we left and then Iwatched the South Park episode
(01:00:31):
and I read all the upper levelmaterials and all that, then I
100% knew, oh, this is justbasically a money making scam.
And then and Claire, I don't, Imean you were trying to get
back in touch with your family.
Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Yeah.
So my answer to that is I wasborn into Scientology.
My mother joined the Corganization when I was four
years old, so I felt what myentire life controlled and
leveraged into that system andhonestly held hostage my love
for my family, my love for Markand knowing that.
So the environment we lived wasnot conducive to critical
(01:01:09):
thinking.
It was pretty much theantithesis.
You couldn't question yourbelief because it came at such
great risk to do so.
So the way that I've looked atit is the moment Scientology
became something I couldconsider.
Do I want to believe this ornot?
I chose not to, and that wasthe moment I escaped.
(01:01:29):
And from that point forward,yes, the the path to
deconstructing all of that hasbeen um a long one.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Awesome.
Okay, I think we'll do a lastfew questions and then we'll
perfect.
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
And Mark just listen to your book on audible.
Thank you for sharing yourexperience with us.
You are both an inspiration.
Claire, I strive for your poiseand persistence.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Wow, thank you, thank you, that's very nice I
appreciate that Glad you enjoyedthe book.
Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Yeah, we did when we did the audible Our bedroom.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
I just set up a little desk in our bedroom and
set up a computer.
It was the only place in thehouse that was really quiet
during the day.
Yeah, and I just cranked it outand it was the first time.
I think I've mentioned thisbefore, but I think it was the
first time I actually read thefinished book.
Yes, cover to cover, because Idid all the.
Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
I worked with the editor and the proof,
proofreading and the front andback matter and all that yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
If you guys want, if you want us to do a book, a
video on how we made the bookand how the book got produced,
Let us know.
Bleep, bloop that in thecomments down there and maybe
we'll do a video on that.
Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Yeah, the making of Blown for Good behind the Iron
Curtain of Scientology.
We've talked about itextensively on other channels,
but we've never done it on thischannel Our stories about,
because there were so many crazythings that happened during
that time too, like leading upto the release of the book and
then shipping the books andanyway, whatever.
There's a lot we could talkabout there if anyone's
(01:03:05):
interested in listening.
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Yeah, I like Rebecca B did a good comment here.
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Geez, if Mark had just gone back to the
Scientology when kindly asked,the planet might've been clear
by now.
Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Sorry, about that, guys, I was not on that
bandwagon Hell no.
Okay, guys, we appreciate youguys tuning in and watching.
Now that I'm back from my tripand I haven't left for another
trip, we might squeeze in a fewmore videos in the next week or
(01:03:40):
two or month or whatever.
And we do have a bunch of othervideos coming out on a bunch of
other channels that we've donestuff with, not even really
Scientology related, just otherchannels.
We're trying to reach out toother channels and other people
and other areas of the interwebs.
Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
Yeah and sorry.
I just wanted to mention foranyone who listens to these
shows on our podcast platform wejust hit 750,000 downloads.
Yay, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
That's pretty good for a podcast.
I mean, people tell me that isgood.
I mean I don't know.
You know 750,000 downloads ofthe podcast.
A lot of not every video thatwe've done on YouTube is a
podcast.
But a lot of the videos that wehave done have proved to be
very popular on on Audible ornot Audible Audible is where the
(01:04:36):
book, but on Spotify and Applepodcast I think Apple podcast is
the biggest um channel ofpodcasts, but pretty much
anywhere where you get yourpodcast you can, you can pull up
the blunt for good uh podcastand um, yeah, I think that's
good.
I think, um, uh, hopefullypeople uh enjoy the videos that
(01:04:57):
we're doing.
We don't really make a lot ofmoney off of the YouTube channel
.
I want to say it to me.
If it pays for itself and itdoesn't cost us money, then I
think that's worthwhile and sofar I think that's pretty much
been the case.
We've got somebody doing shorts.
We hope you guys like theshorts.
That's another thing.
(01:05:18):
Bleep, bloop it down below Ifyou think we should make the
shorts another channel.
I have seen some peoplecomplain they get a ton of
notifications because we'reputting out a few shorts every
day and they don't want to watchthose.
But then we get a lot ofcomments that people love the
shorts because they don't wantto watch an hour video, right,
but they love watching theshorts.
So bleep, bloop it.
That's the only way we can knowGive us some input.
(01:05:39):
Give us some input.
Thank you, we appreciateeverybody watching and
commenting and all that goodstuff.
And if you, if you did do acomment in the chat I liked, on
all the places you can go findstuff I put up.
(01:06:00):
I like to put up comments inthere because it's fun, it's a
fun thing to do.
I like to do that, cool, anywayguys, you want.
Yes, thanks for joining us,until next time.
Bye, thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have hail Xenu Xenu is myhomeboy and BFG branded mouse
(01:06:27):
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content ona regular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book Blown for Good Behind
the Iron Curtain of Scientologyin hardback, kindle and audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast and you can get that on
Apple, spotify or wherever youlisten to podcasts, and if you'd
(01:06:49):
like to watch another video,you can click on this link right
here, or you can click on thisone here, or you can click on
the subscribe button right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.
Hey guys, welcome back to the blown for good
channel.
I'm Mark Headley.
I'm joined here today by mybeautiful wife Claire.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey, hey, hey.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Claire, hey, hey, hey , and yeah, we're going to do a
live today, and today is goingto be a little bit different.
We don't really have a specificseries or topic that we're
talking about today, but, asusual, if you want to tell us
where you're coming from in thecomments, we usually like to let
people show up for a fewminutes and then we just call
out where people are tuning infrom, and anyone who comments is
(00:52):
automatically entered to win amerch giveaway.
That we'll do at the end of theshow, and so, yeah, let's go to
the comments and Claire willread these for you guys.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yep, yep, yep, anita.
Hello from the netherlands.
Nice karen ortiz.
Hello from northern california,hi.
Karen kb.
Hi from texas, mary k london.
Hi all from a scorching hotalbuquerque, new mexico.
Yep, it's definitely way hotterin albuquerque than it is in
(01:25):
colorado.
Uh, share.
Hello from the netherlands,also nice, there you go, hello
and we have a lot of netherlandstrevin on.
Good evening from thenetherlands.
Thanks for joining us, trevinon uh, here we go manon, hello
from the netherlands.
wow, way to go, awesome.
(01:46):
Kb dang, netherlands,representing impressive.
Yes, indeed, clara, netherlandsare repping in the chat today.
Yes, and thank you as always,clara, for being our amazing mod
.
We appreciate you.
Um, betsy, sue, just call mebetsy.
Greetings from cameron, northcarolina.
Hey, betsy.
Debbie dallas, texas, nice,lacey b, you're good.
(02:16):
Oh, did we freeze?
Oh, no, we're good.
Hey, yanson helloansen.
Hello from the Netherlands aswell.
Oh my goodness.
Boom Audie Zebra, hi fromMalden, essex, uk.
Awesome Things from Claire'shometown, manchester, uk, boom
(02:39):
Dorte, good evening fromCopenhagen, denmark, nice,
that's awesome.
Juliet, hi from Lancagen,denmark, nice, that's awesome.
Juliet, hi from Lancaster,pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Shout out to PA.
Yes.
I've done a lot of work in PAin the last few years.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yes M Hello from Washington State Hello.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Oh, there's a bunch more here.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
All right, we did that one Yep, yep, yep.
We got that one Yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
We got that.
Oh, look at that.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Love food.
Kitchen beard for good islooking excellent today.
It looks freshly trimmed.
I'm so grateful to have myhubby back.
It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I've been out.
I've been out.
I was in, I was in the South, Iwas in, um, I was in the south,
I was in mississippi andactually it's funny, I was at
one of our clients thatscientology sent a bunch of uh
emails to and they sent apicture of me passed out drunk.
And this is the client that putmy the picture that uh
(03:42):
scientology emailed them of mepassed out on Hollywood
Boulevard.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
From your first birthday out, from getting out
of the Sea Org from May 2005.
Yeah, so it's fair to mentionbecause it's 20 years ago 20
years ago and they put it.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
The client put it up on their notice board and they
said where was this guy when hewas here last?
So, yes, it was a great client,one of my favorite clients
actually and yeah, so it's allgood there.
Okay, I'm trying to think ofhow we want to do this.
We left Scientology in Januaryof 2005.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes, you left January 4th and I left January 24th
January 4th and I left January24th.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yes, and from the time that I left, they were
calling me.
You were calling me on theirbehalf.
My sister called me.
A bunch of people from theplace were calling me and
basically trying to convince meto come back.
I didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh, and David Miscavige specifically had
ordered that you be brought back.
He ordered Jenny DeVocht Linsonto bring you back, which is the
only reason I didn't make myescape sooner, because I had
this vision in my mind that Iwould be escaping.
Meanwhile they would havecaptured you, bringing you back
(05:01):
and I would still never see youagain.
So I had to bide my time.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, so up until you left, they were making.
It seemed like they were makingan earnest attempt to have us
come back and that they'dresolve everything, all of the
things that were going on, andthey were like you didn't do
anything.
It's all good.
This was a hugemisunderstanding and of course,
(05:27):
we're not going to get allexcited because you spent some
money on shipping or eBay feeson all the equipment that you
sold, and at this point I hadbeen sleeping and I had
equipment that they were goingto throw away.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Now, yeah, yeah we, we go.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I go into that detail in my book if anybody wants to
go out to in all the all the insand out of all the nonsense.
But regardless, for essentiallyan entire month you're not
going to be separated from yourwife and never see her again.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
After all big oopsies , Just come on back.
Everything's going to bewonderful.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, so I'm just trying to set this up so people
understand.
These attacks didn't just comeout of anywhere.
No, we were doing our thing andthey were doing their thing.
You left on the 24th, and thenthat's where we'll get into all
of the fun stuff.
So you left on January 24th.
(06:35):
The first thing thatScientology did was well, they
did try to intercept you whenyou escaped.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, they.
They followed me across statelines from California to Nevada
and tried to.
Well, they intercepted me atthe Vegas bus station, so the
only reason that failed isbecause I sat on my purse in the
middle of said bus station.
I would, I would love to beable to talk to somebody that
was there that day other thanthose people, but see what their
(07:05):
, their perspective was on whatwas happening yeah, so that
happened on the 24th and youprobably even didn't get to me
until the 25th, I think yeahright the 25th even the 26th
maybe in the 26th.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Once she arrives, then they send oh sorry, I
skipped one.
Ok, so then they write this SPdeclare suppressive person
declare which you should be ableto see up on the screen there.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, and, and also the very next day after I
escaped is when they called allof my family in Well, hold on OK
sure.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So we haven't done anything.
We haven't and we haven't evencontacted them since the initial
bout where they were trying toget a hold of me and you were
getting a hold of me.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
They didn't even know that you'd escaped, because I
wasn't.
I had had one phone call withmy family in between the time
from when you escaped to when Iescaped, but of course someone
was listening to the call andtold me ahead of time that I was
not allowed to tell my familythat you had escaped, which
ended up being helpful for me inthe end, which you'll learn
(08:15):
about in my book, but whatever.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, Anyway.
So the first attack was themdoing this suppressressive
person declare and similarly,they pulled in my family and
showed them that I had beendeclared and that you had been
declared.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yep and told them that they would never be allowed
to speak to us again.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, and now that's my suppressive person, claire.
That is the actual officialorder from Scientology, and in
here it says that I abandoned, Iabandoned my post and left.
It says that I escaped and itsays that you escaped, okay,
which which kind of comes inhandy later on.
But there's Claire'ssuppressive person.
(09:02):
To Claire and hers was on the27th of January, so just one day
after mine.
Now our families were shown allthese things.
We did not know that these,this existed, that these existed
, and for months after thisScientology we're still in
contact with us, likeeverything's fine.
We just want you to come back.
Yeah, but, but they didn't saythat they had already told our
(09:25):
families that we were declared.
No, no, and the only reasonthat we knew that?
Because, even though ourfamilies and I'm not going to
say who and all that, I don'twant to get them in any more
trouble we might have alreadysaid something, but who knows?
Either way, we were in touchwith some of our family members
and they had told us that wewere declared.
Yeah, even though we had neverbeen told that and we had never
(09:48):
been sent these declare orders.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In fact, to the contrary, I had emailed Kirsten
Catano from OSA about a weekafter we escaped and I said, hey
, we're in Kansas City, notcoming back, what do we have to
do?
Because I still was holding outhope for to somehow be able to
keep contact with our families,and so we actually had an email
(10:14):
from none other than GregWilhair, who was David
Miscavige's right hand man atthe time, that said nope, it's
all on hold.
You just have to come back andget interrogated and do all
their steps and sign theirpaperwork and all that.
So we and Mark never considereddoing that for even one moment,
(10:36):
but I did.
To be fair again, you know Ilove my family.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I was like, yeah, so that's a good point, because
you'll see up on the screen.
Now they sent us thesefreeloader statements.
Now Claire's is ninety sixthousand.
You can see there.
That's what they want you topay them for the courses that
you and any Scientologycounseling you did.
You have to pay for that as oneof the step.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
OK, so one of the steps.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Okay, so one of several steps you also have to
redo all of that is another step.
Yeah, but regardless, in orderfor us to talk to our families
again, we would have had to pay$96,000 for Claire, and then 67,
is that 67?
I can't see it.
It's too tiny.
But um, and now you can see,see claire.
Claire did a lot of scientologytraining and a lot of
scientology counseling and fromlooking at the list of things
(11:35):
that they're charging her for,and I did a lot of like audio
visual, just basic stuff, and Idid very to little.
I mean, they literally have ofscientology counseling.
They have um like fortythousand dollars in the 15 years
(11:56):
that I was in the seahorse, andalso they have all these
intensives of all that was thetom cruise auditing.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I don't know if they're if no, that was all the
interrogations and stuff thatthey did, it was not because
they.
The only reason they didn'tcharge for Tom Cruise's auditing
of you is because that wasstudent auditing, meaning he
wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't, hewas just training.
So you were his guinea pig.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, exactly so, regardless, in order for us to
see our families again, we wouldhave, after being in the Sea
Org for 15 years and justgetting out into the real world
and getting jobs.
Claire, I was fixing computersby the getting paid by the hour.
I think I was making around $50an hour, which was how much I
would make in a whole week if wegot paid.
(12:45):
I was making that much an hour.
Claire was working as a serverat a pizza restaurant and they
wanted us to come up with ahundred and basically $50,000.
That would be one of the firststeps in order for us to speak
with our families again.
We also would have to do.
There's a whole bunch of stepscalled the scientology a to e
steps.
(13:05):
Yeah, um, but regardless.
Um, I wasn't having any of it,um and we had, you know,
obviously.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Just we've been being paid if, if we were lucky, 46 a
week for 15 years.
We had no vehicle, no credit,no savings of any kind.
We had just barely escaped, andnow they're to.
You know the the prospect ofhaving to come up with $150,000
(13:38):
as just one step to ever speakwith our families ever again.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, guys are psychotic.
So I just want I just kind ofwanted to set that up as the
beginning, because then you cansee that we were just basically
doing our thing Right and thenthey were messing with us.
Yep, okay.
So in 2005, that's when most ofthis is happening, the back and
forth, all this good stuffSorry, excuse me, in the middle
(14:07):
of 2005, the South ParkScientology episode comes out.
Yeah, okay, and I watched thatwhole thing and then I asked
Claire is that the real thing?
She says yeah, basically.
I mean they pronounced feet andwrong, but besides that it's
all legit.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Which is a common mistake.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, anyway, before I forget, I have to tell
everybody this I watched aYouTuber.
He does like scandals and kindof scams on YouTube.
That's kind of what he mainlycovers.
And I've been watching this guyfor years, just here and there.
I don't watch every singlevideo, but I've watched a lot of
video.
He has a candy company and hegot scammed and the equipment he
(14:48):
was buying for his candycompany, all kinds of exciting
drama anyway.
But I went on YouTube the otherday and he did a whole episode
about Scientology.
Okay, it's a it's a substantialepisode on Scientology.
But my favorite takeaway hedoes do a lot of good reporting
(15:08):
on Scientology and covering ofdifferent things.
It's it's also a very kind oflike overview of a lot of this
stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
But my favorite thing is he calls David Misk.
He calls him David Miscavige,okay, and I just love that.
I think we just say that fromnow on it's Miscavige, anyway.
So I watched the South Parkthing and then I read all of the
(15:37):
upper levels of Scientology,the OT levels, the operating
fate levels.
These are the confidentiallevels that they make you pay
for, and you could pay basicallyup to a million to $2 million
to get all the way to the topand find out about all the.
That's where you learn aboutthe space cooties and Xenu, lord
Xenu, and all that good stuff.
Yep, okay, and I read aboutthose on a website called
(16:00):
Zinunet, which was being run bythis guy in Norway, andreas
Heldlund.
Anyway, we'll put links to abunch of these things in the
description.
Okay, in January 2006, I startposting on the Internet as blown
for good, because I don't wantthem to know who I am, but I
(16:21):
know that they're eventuallywant them to know who I am, but
I know that they're eventuallygoing to figure out who I am.
So I try to buy myself a littletime and post on the internet
for 2000, from basically, um.
2006 is when that starts.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yep, and meanwhile, at that time, I'm eight months
pregnant with our first son, um,and we've moved back from
Kansas City to Los Angeles andwe're renting a house there, and
yeah, so we're at least on ourway to getting our feet on the
ground, but certainly not in aposition to withstand brutal OSA
(17:01):
attacks, which is another hugereason why you were posting
anonymously.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, okay.
Now, in addition to us justbeing gone and not wanting to go
back to them, shellyMiscavige's sister, suzette, is
living with us.
Yeah, okay.
So Shelly Miscavige's sisterlives in the basically like a
guest house at the house thatwe're renting.
(17:28):
She's staying there as well.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
And her father, shelly Miscavige's father,
barney Barnett, is working forme as the handyman.
When Suzette had him come overto see her one time I talked to
him because I talked to Barneythroughout the 15 years that I
worked at the headquarters, Iworked with Shelley Miscavige's
(17:53):
other sister, clarice, and soBarney would sometimes call to
talk to her and then I wouldanswer the phone and I'd be like
oh, hey, barney, what's up?
Oh, let me see if I can go findClarice.
Okay, so I actually had spokento Barney maybe 10 or 15 times
over the years, just on thephone, and I'd chat with him
(18:14):
while they were trying to findClarice to talk to him.
Okay, so now Suzette is livingwith us.
It's 2006.
We're living in Burbank,california.
Suzette is living with us,Barney is working for me and
they have PIs watching our house, but the private investigators
they don't know who this olddude is, who's doing my handyman
(18:35):
work and he's coming and goingall the time.
Well, at a certain point Ithink they're trying to ambush
Claire or myself and come andspeak to her while Speak to me
while she's away, or whatever.
It's covered in a lot of thespy files when they were doing
this.
And if you want to look forthat, you can go to our channel
(18:56):
and look up the spy files and wego into that in great detail
files and we go into that ingreat detail.
Anyway, so when that ishappening and they're trying to
ambush Claire, some high leveloperatives from the Office of
Special Affairs, scientology'sDirty Tricks Department, they
come to the house and for thefirst time they see this
(19:18):
handyman that's being referredto by the PIs.
And then Kirsten Catano knowsthat that's Shelly Miscavige's
dad.
That's my handyman.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, and to be clear , we didn't know these PIs were
coming to the house.
They would wait until we weregone and they were just kind of
watching who was coming andgoing and identifying anybody
that we were in touch with forthe sake of data collection
anybody?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
that we were in touch with for the sake of data
collection?
Yeah, okay.
So when they find out thatBarney is my handyman, that's
when things start to go verycrazy, because now and also, by
the way, I was talking to Barneyhe would come over and he would
like he painted the house, hefixed the garage, he was doing
all kinds of stuff.
He painted the house, he fixedthe garage, he was doing all
kinds of stuff.
And the reason I was hiring himis because he was essentially
(20:06):
broke and he was not doing wellhealth wise.
And for his birthday he'stelling me that Dave and Shelly
are sending him Scientologylectures for his birthday.
They retail value are severalthousand dollars and I'm like
why don't they just give you thecash?
Why are they?
They have tons of money.
I don't know why they're notjust sharing it with you and
(20:29):
taking care of you.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah.
And so he was already battlingcancer at that point.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, he did have cancer, yeah, and he was not
really doing what he should havebeen doing to not keep having
cancer.
He wasn't.
He was kind of just like I gotno money, I got no time I'm
barely able to support.
He had a woman, a former SeaOrg member, and her child living
(20:54):
with him and he was sort oftaking care of them as well as
himself.
And anyway he comes and tellsme that he got pulled in and
that he made up this wholeelaborate story that I just
contacted him and I he was beingmy handyman.
He didn't know who I was.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
No, no, no, remember he cause he came to the front
door and he said okay, so listen, I got pulled in by OSA and
SecCheck, so I'm just I'm goinggonna tell you the story so that
we have you know everythingaligned so they match he wants
to make.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
He's like I gotta go get interrogated.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Let's make sure the stories and his and his story,
which is what we agreed with him, was the best way to go.
Was that?
Um, so our landlord, who ownedthat house, was not a
scientologist and had nothing todo with Scientology.
We agreed with him.
Yeah, that guy hired you, notus.
You have no idea who thetenants are.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You're just painting the house for the landlord,
which was solid, right, yeah, asmuch as it could be, but anyway
.
So when that happens, I amtelling him everything that's
going on at the base to Barney,so he knows about, well to be
fair.
So when that happens, I amtelling him everything that's
going on at the base to Barney,so he knows he knows about, well
to be fair.
So he had the daughter that wasliving with us, suzette.
He had Shelly Miscavige andthen he had Clarice, and all
(22:14):
three of his daughters were atthe base for years and he didn't
have that much contact withthem besides on the phone.
His youngest daughter had beenkicked out of the sea, org yep,
for more than a year and he hadbeen calling the international
base, scientology base, and theywere just telling him we don't
know where she is like we justcan't get a hold of her, even
(22:35):
though she had been kicked offthe property and they knew she
was in.
They had sent her to new orleansto do her katrina cleanup yeah,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
And she was a very and they were just taking phone
messages from Barney saying oh,we'll give her a message that
you called and you hadn't heardfrom her in.
Yeah, I think about a year.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, if you guys are seeing anything weird happening
on the stream, there's massivebody things in our network right
now that the Internet companycame and they rewired a bunch of
stuff, and whether it's worseor better than before they came
we don't know.
But it says we're good and wecan only do what we can do.
So if it freezes up once in awhile, we're sorry about that.
It's nothing we can control andaccording to our speed tests,
(23:17):
we have a very fast internetright now.
And it's just there's demons,uh, space cooties in there.
Um, okay, back to the story.
We'll zap them after the stream,folks yeah, we, we, there's
nothing we can do.
We did as much as we could dobefore, um, okay.
So, um, this during this timein 2006, um, I was also writing
(23:41):
magazine articles for us andLife and Style and In Touch and
all these different articles andthe journalist would basically
send me pictures and then Iwould just identify the people
in the pictures and then explainwhat wire they would be, in
whatever locations they tookpictures of them, and then they
make a cover story out of thatlocations.
(24:03):
They took pictures of them andthen they make a cover story out
of that.
And that was during the tomcruise and katie holmes kind of
courtship and making babies andhaving babies and all that stuff
.
So, um, okay, and then I'm alsoposting on the internet yeah
okay psychology.
during that time they have piswatching our house full-time.
They had infiltrated Claire'sbusiness and my business by
(24:26):
either having people that knowus report on us or actually
setting up fake clients that,like I, would go to a job and do
an estimate and then sometimesomehow they try to get me into
doing the project and then tryto sue me or say that we didn't
do something right or all thisstuff.
Additionally, we had aScientology spy that used to
(24:49):
work at the internationalheadquarters.
That was not in Scientology andhe very heavily encouraged
Claire to get into the realestate business and that he
could help her get a license andhe could help her do this.
And she did end up getting herlicense and she did end up doing
some real estate projects withthis guy and the reason that
(25:10):
they were doing that was so thatthey could tell they could
basically get basically tryingto frame me.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, they're basically trying to frame Claire
for real estate fraud and thenget her which is funny, because
when he was the the deal that hewas planning to set me up on, I
was like you know what I'm?
I'm not going to do this, I'mI'm too busy with because now I
have you know, our son is born,and so I had a newborn baby.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, I took.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I had taken the, the California realtor exam um in
Fresno when I was born in 2006.
Yeah, I took.
I had taken the the Californiarealtor exam in Fresno when I
was eight months pregnant.
I drove up there, took the exam, drove back Anyhow.
So I just was like you knowwhat you do, you, I don't, I
don't, I'm not going to do thisdeal with you.
And so I did not end up doingany transactions that he was
(26:01):
involved in, even though he wasvery much trying to get me to do
a transaction with him.
I was like, yeah, no, thanks,I'm good.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, and also we kind of suspected that there's
something off with this guy,because he was driving down from
Northern California to meetwith Claire and like be there
for a few hours and then hewould drive back to Northern
California.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I particularly knew him very well at all.
I knew who he was, but it's notlike he was our friend or he
just kind of showed up out ofnowhere.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, adam Parcell was his name.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, now, during that time, they also had all of
our phone records Yep, all ofour phone records, yep.
They had.
Our phones were either tappedor they had gotten into our
Sprint account and haddownloaded all of our phone
history so that they couldreverse engineer who we talked
to if they didn't listen in live.
They were collecting our trashevery week.
(27:02):
This is in 2006, a year afterwe left and I had only been
posting on the internet andwriting a few cover stories for
tabloids.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Okay, and, to be fair , the only reason you even
started posting on the internetin the first place is because
there were crazy stories aboutthings and you're like no, no,
that's not what happened.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
That's right.
That's what I was really tryingto correct the record of what
was on the internet of like hey,I don't know do with
Scientology.
They were actually following meto these different projects and
(27:53):
then they were sending privateinvestigators to my clients
because I was hiring ex-C orgmembers that had escaped from
Scientology.
I was giving them jobs andtrying to help them get back on
their feet, and then they wouldaccuse one of those people of
stealing computer files or this.
And then they'd go to my jobsites and say we're
investigating this person.
(28:14):
We were told he was workinghere and they'd create a big
scene at the site to then try toget my company fired from the
project because we're bringingall this drama to them.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And meanwhile they would constantly send private
investigators to our house,process servers to our house,
constantly send privateinvestigators to our house,
process servers to our house.
They had a private investigatorwho literally every single day,
would walk our neighborhood andwalk and see who was at our
house and and I remember tellingyou, uh, there's, there's this
creepy old dude who walks by ourhouse every day and he had one
(28:47):
of those big old transistorradios on his belt and like he's
got to be from Scientology.
And you were like no, no, it's,he's just an old dude that
lives in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I'm like I don't know , I was trying not to freak you
out, okay.
Anyway also during that time, Imet up and this is like two more
, like maybe 2007, 2008.
I was meeting up with um.
I met up with Jason Begay, whoused to be in Scientology.
We went to Germany, I want tosay in 2008.
(29:20):
Yes, 2008,.
We went to Germany and we didthis conference for this
European delegation of, likegovernment law enforcement for
many, many European countries.
They came to the house and gaveme these flyers.
We can put this back up now,now that I have this.
Oh man, where is it there?
(29:41):
It is.
Oh, what is going on?
They sent this flyer.
They gave Claire this flyer.
They sent this flyer.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
They gave Claire this flyer and they gave this to the
landlord of your businesswarehouse at the time.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, and they gave it to us at the airport when
Jason and I were leaving LAX tofly to Germany, and they gave me
the flyer and I was like, hey,I don't want to disappoint you,
but I don't speak or read German, so this is pretty much not
very helpful, you're featured onthe next page of this.
(30:17):
Oh, I am, let's see, oh look atthat I used to go to the
anonymous protests that werehappening in the early days of
Chanology against Scientology,and they had some pictures of me
at those.
Anyway, they were relentless inthe nonsense.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
They really were.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
And early on, and I think I want to say it was to
intimidate us to stop.
Like you got to stop this.
We're going to go, we're goingto, we're going to mess with you
.
And if you had just leftScientology and you don't really
have a life and you don't haveany way to make money and
everything you, that's a lot ofstress and work just to get on
(31:01):
your feet, yeah, much less withall this stuff happening
everywhere around you on anonstop basis.
I mean, there was one time whenthey followed me with it was at
least two or three differentprivate investigators.
I went to Jason's house.
He lived near the coast inCalifornia and I had I was doing
a bunch of jobs in like SantaMonica and Venice and those
(31:24):
areas and I would go up and seehim sometimes or I'd go help him
with some stuff and then theywould follow.
They would be camped outside ofhis house and then they'd
follow me to another client fromhis house.
So it was pretty much nonstop.
I think that's the last slidein that thing.
Yep, it is all early 2006, 2007, 2008.
(31:59):
In 2009, we worked with well,in a bunch of those periods we
worked with a woman named JanetReitman on an article that she
was doing for Rolling Stone.
Then we also talked to her alot more after that for a book
that she ended up writing calledInside Scientology.
We worked with Lawrence Wrightwhen he was writing the book,
going clear, yeah, we see,called four corners.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No, that one was the Australia one.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Oh, four corners he was Scientology no.
It was the John Sweeney.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yes, was John Sweeney Exactly, I can't remember the.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Scientology and right now Scientology and Me I think
it was called, yeah, scientologyand.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Me yeah, and then the Louis Thoreau documentary.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
My Scientology Movie.
That's right, I did that aswell.
Yep, that was a little bitlater on.
Yep, 2010,.
Well, and then 2009,.
I wrote a book aboutScientology called Blown for
Good Behind the Iron Curtain ofScientology.
And then in that same year, in2009, we actually launched a
lawsuit against Scientology forhuman trafficking, forced
(32:59):
abortions, non-payment of wages,labor law violations yeah labor
law violations, all this stuff.
Yeah, okay, and then in 2010,claire and I became confidential
informants on Scientology forthe FBI.
We were we.
They referred to us, as it'sfunny, because in Scientology,
(33:21):
ci means To as CI1 and CI2,which is confidential informant
one and confidential informanttwo, and there were many other
people that were confidentialinformants, but we just happened
to be one and two.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
And between us, we spent probably what.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Hundreds of hours.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, five days out there at the LA headquarters.
Everything was recorded,documented, like literally
basically went through ourentire life history, every
experience we'd ever had inScientology.
Who was involved?
What happened?
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Where things were.
They had.
They showed us drone, recordeddrone footage of the property,
multiple, multiple sessions.
And we would go through and saythey'd say, okay, where, where?
So they'd say where are allthese people going?
Who's this?
You could see, you could a lotof people you could recognize,
(34:21):
even though this drone isthousands and thousands of feet
above the ground.
They, you could, you could makeout shapes and sizes and people
and what the buildings andwhere they were going.
And so we went through a bunchof that stuff with them for many
years, I want to say probablytwo years at least.
We would speak to them on aregular basis, if not once a
(34:44):
week, once every few weeks, orwe'd go to the office and we'd
do another interview with them.
They would ask us about otherpeople who were out and if they
might be willing to speak andthat sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, and it was during that time that I
especially because we had nowtwo young kids I particularly
was getting really distraught bythe level of intimidation
following the privateinvestigators.
All of this because I was like,how seriously, what do we have
to do to keep our children safeand have our lives back?
(35:17):
And at a certain point we wereactually researching with the
FBI going into their equivalentof witness protection.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, to try to get out of Scientology, to get out
of the attack zone fromScientology.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, because, if you think about it, they had every
Scientology, had literally everypiece of information about our
entire lives.
So, like, even just considersecurity questions for a minute
what's your mother's maiden name?
Where did you go?
Where did you go to school?
What road did you live on?
In third grade, you know theyknew everything.
(35:54):
And after about the fifth timeof finding out that they had
illegally obtained our phonerecords, it was really really
really upsetting and frustratingand everything else.
So one of the agents washelping helping me particularly
look into like okay, well, whatit would look like is you'd get
(36:16):
a new social security number anda new name and this and this
and this and and I'm like, butthen what happens with the, the
three years of credit that we'vebeen working so, so hard?
to build up like we had nothing.
And she was like, yeah, that'sthe downside, that's going to go
down the toilet and we're justlike we can't do that.
(36:36):
Yeah, I had literally alreadyread like four books on how to
build credit.
I know every nitty grittydetail, down to way more than
you would ever want to know,about credit scores.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, anyway, so then the lawsuit ends in 2012.
Colorado right before that, in2011.
And in 2011, they actuallyvideoed us moving, like, while
we had a moving truck and weloaded it up and we were driving
(37:11):
away, they were driving next tous in cars with cameras out the
windows, recording us drivingon the 10 freeway going to
Colorado and moving trucks andour car and our van and all this
stuff.
And the funny thing is is onone of the hate websites
somebody sent to me, they saidthey left in the dead of the
night and I was like we left inthe morning.
(37:33):
You were recording us.
It was 11 am, it was daytime.
What are you talking about?
Anyway?
But regardless of that, when weget to Colorado and the lawsuit
ends shortly after that, that'swhen they start with hate
websites and they start a sitecalled who is Mark Headleycom
(37:54):
and they just put up the mostrandomly crazy nonsense stories
they can find on there.
This whole time I'm talkingabout there, this main guy,
david Miscavige, is beatingpeople up.
Um, um, they're not leave.
Um, there's people, peoplecommitting suicide.
There's all of these thingsthat are happening and they're
saying I'm licking crackers, I'mputting spiders in people's
(38:18):
desk drawers just nonsense.
And also that I was a terror atsix years old.
Like my body, thetans werealready fully taking over and I
was evil at six, even though Iwas in Scientology my entire
life and I worked for them.
I was, I was basically had somereally, really evil body things
(38:39):
and I was a bad person.
Okay, that website is still upto this day.
Right, that was in 2012,.
13 years later.
Is it 13 years?
Do I need to do I know math?
Yeah, 13 years later, theystill have this website up and
it's still talking about melicking crackers and being a
(38:59):
terror at six.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
And and they have one for me too, but mine just
points to yours.
I don't have a separate one,it's just a combination of all
of our stuff together.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
If you ain't got a site, you ain't doing it.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I do I do?
Isn't this the same as yours?
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Anyway, the other thing is that they post things
on Twitter.
They've got a Twitter account.
I don't know, I think it'scalled.
I can't remember what it'scalled, but they tweet things
out Now more recently.
I can't remember what it'scalled, but they tweet things
out.
Now, more recently, they'vebeen going wild.
They have.
They did a Freedom Magazinearticle when Going Clear came
out yes, and they put us on thecover of that.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Which was the comedy there is that you and I were not
in Going.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Clear, not the movie.
No, we were In the movie.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
No, we were in the book.
We were in the book and we werealso.
We were extensively involved inconfirming and corroborating
and all that worked with theresearcher extensively.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
But we're not actually in the movie, but
psychology didn't know who wasgoing to be in the movie.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
That's my point.
So they just assumed thatwhoever was in the book was also
going to be in the movie andthey did the cover based on that
, which was wrong?
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, and one of the reasons we even moved to
Colorado was because, when wewere working in LA, we both have
separate businesses.
Claire has her own company, Ihave my own company, and that's
what we do to make a living forour family.
That's how we support ourselves.
Is we both run our owncompanies.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And even that, by the way, was an intentional
strategy.
If we have two separatebusinesses, that are completely
not connected at all.
Not only will we be better ableto weather the ups and downs of
the economy, but also it willbe harder for Scientology to
destroy both of those.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yeah, and the other reason we both had our own
companies is because everycompany that we would work for
they either would haveengineered the job for us like
one of your first jobs, oh mygosh yeah.
You were working for a gal thatused to be at the base.
You were working with her at acompany.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
As was Suzette Shelley's sister, and literally
I finally figured out OSA wasliterally calling in the office
and getting reports women on,both Suzette and I.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
We knew that we couldn't work for somebody that
we didn't know was going to beloyal to us when Scientology
came, or that wasn't already.
Somebody already there wasn'tworking for Scientology,
reporting on us.
And both of the places that weworked when we first got out in,
when we moved back toCalifornia in 2000, late 2005,
there were spies at both ofthose companies that reported to
Scientology daily or weekly.
So we knew we had to start ourown thing, because Scientology
(41:58):
was literally in every singlething that we tried to do.
They had somebody in there thatwas just either trying to
sabotage us or reporting up onus.
So Scientology could dowhatever, just make nonsense.
So we had to set up our owncompanies.
And then, even when we set upour own companies in Los Angeles
(42:19):
, they were constantly messingwith us because we're right in
the heart of the Scientologynonsense.
They could send somebody tofour different clients on the
same day and they'd all bedifferent people because they
have so many resources in LosAngeles.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah, Like just as a as an example of the nonsense
that would happen.
One time in 2009, Amy Scobieand Matt Pesh came to visit our
house in Burbank, California,and we literally ended up with
an OSA film crew with like boomsticks and camera and everything
else and again in our frontyard in our front yard we have
(42:56):
two little kids.
There are like three and onenow.
Anyway, really frustrating.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, ok, so we moved to Colorado.
When we get to Colorado theyalso have private investigators
watching our house, watching mybusiness and still messing with
us.
But in Colorado they don't putup with a lot of that nonsense.
In California you can get awaywith stalking, because that's
essentially what paparazzi dothey're stalkers.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So if you prosecute, so the rules are less.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Well, they just don't enforce them.
You can follow somebody day andnight and harass them and try
to take pictures of them, andthat's an industry there.
Right, that's how they, that'show they stir up drama and news
stories to then promote a movieor promote a TV show or whatever
they're doing.
And so we moved to Colorado.
(43:50):
When we moved to Colorado Iactually befriended um, a police
officer in Castle Rock, and heread my book and then several
other people in Castle Rockpolice.
They basically knew, um, ifScientology, if there's
something happening, it's mostlikely going to be Scientology.
And very quickly Scientologylearned that that was not going
(44:10):
to be a viable situation forthem in Colorado.
So for the most part theprivate investigator drama kind
of died down or whatever they'redoing, they're not that obvious
.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
It's limited now to just drive by photography yeah.
Yeah, and so they can putupdates on their hate websites
anyway, which is funny becauseour neighbors will not put up
with nonsense on that front.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, we have a lot of.
We have a lot of.
We have a lot of support in ourneighborhood.
Yeah, and pretty much everybodythat knows us in our
neighborhood knows about theScientology stuff.
So there's not from us, butthey found out, yeah, about the
Scientology stuff.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
So there's Not from us, but they found out?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, anyway.
So essentially, from 2005 tonow, scientology has constantly
been attacking us and trying tosabotage our family, sabotage
our businesses, destroy usutterly, destroy us utterly.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Silence us completely .
Speaker 1 (45:11):
They're sending emails and letters and stuff to
my clients and tweeting aboutstuff and and so recently as
april it's non-stop, and I wantto say that in the past few
years it seems to they justamping up as much as they can.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, I mean well, between just talking about
Scientology on a regular basis,my testimony in the Danny
Masterson trial as an expertwitness, the work we do through
the Michael J Render AftermathFoundation, the billboards, you
name it I mean there's a longlist of we're always.
(45:56):
We always have ongoing projects, side projects and guess what
Scientology here?
Speaker 1 (46:03):
let's do it, going for the close up here.
We've got so much more thatwe're working on.
We have so much stuff that weare working on.
Yeah, that's going to beamazing and productive.
Yep, there is a lot of we'vedone.
I mean we've done everything.
We've done TV shows, we've donearticles, we've done YouTube
(46:28):
videos, we've gone on otherchannels.
We've done YouTube videos,we've gone on other channels.
We've tried to do as manydifferent media, platforms and
methods to disseminate theinformation, the true
information on Scientology, andwe've done it consistently.
So we might not always be onYouTube, but we are doing other
(46:50):
things in other mediums.
Youtube's not the end-all,be-all.
I like YouTube because we havefull control over what we do.
Claire and I have participatedin many shows that are amazing,
shows that never see the lightof day.
They get produced and then,right before they get greenlit
to air or go get sold to thisstreaming service or whatever,
(47:13):
scientology sends them a legalletter and then they just hose
the whole thing down and neversees the light of day.
Yeah which is frustrating.
It is frustrating, but at thesame time, when we do YouTube or
when we do X or Facebook, theyhave no control.
So when we do a stream likethis, maybe 5,000 people watch
(47:34):
it, maybe 10,000 people watch it, and maybe it freezes right in
the middle while we're talking.
Whatever happens, we havecontrol over it and it can go
live and they can't really takeit down.
So, and and also I do want tomake this clear point that this
(47:54):
entire time we have had to raiseour family.
We have three young, we havethree boys, and they have been
attacking us while we're tryingto raise a family and run our
businesses.
And all this and as a hobby,expose Scientology as our sort
of after dinner job.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah, Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Anyway.
So I just wanted to give youguys, because a lot of people
are like why I get thesecomments, like why are they
attacking you so much and whyhas this been going on for so
long?
It's because we've been doingthis for since 2005,.
We basically for 20 years we'vebeen um, we're, we've been
doing this work and they arevery not appreciative of it.
(48:41):
And, um, david Miscavige is um,he, he is a a very vindictive
person.
He really really holds a grudgeand he, he, he, really I do
believe he believes thescientology policy of destroy
them utterly.
(49:02):
Yeah, um, and who knows?
They, they, I don't know whatelse they can do, but again,
we've been exposing Scientologyand the practices and the abuse
and they've been telling shitstories about us and just being
chaos monkeys in our life andtrying to not even say.
(49:23):
I don't even think there'sanywhere where they're saying
this stuff didn't happen.
They're just saying these guysare evil, mark and Claire are
just evil people.
They don't say we don't abusepeople, we don't lock people up,
we don't take away people'spassports, we don't intercept
their mail, we, they're notsaying any of that.
They're actually, to thecontrary, they're saying they
have admitted in many cases.
(49:45):
Yeah, we do all that, but it'sbecause we're a religion and
that's our doctrine.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
We're allowed to do that, and let's not forget too,
there were a number of yearswhere they were telling people
leaving Scientology, you cantalk to whoever you want, it
doesn't matter if they'redeclared SP or not, but do not
speak to Mark and Claire.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
So we're going to be doing some more videos sort of
like this that are coming up.
So we're going to be doing somemore videos sort of like this
that are coming up.
We're going to actually betelling the stories of specifics
of things that they did.
We're going to try to do morestuff like that.
We do like doing the lives andanswering questions and stuff
like that, but we also want totell this story that.
(50:34):
But we also want to tell thisstory and really so
Scientologists, or people thatare thinking that are
Scientologists, that arethinking of leaving Scientology,
can see all the specific thingsthat they're doing and in an
effort for them to understandhow they should leave or ways
they could leave, that maybewould be more productive.
Obviously, exposing Scientologyis going to open you up for
(50:57):
attacks from Scientology.
That's in their DNA.
That's how they I don't know.
I just saw the screen wentblack.
Anyway, they are going to messwith us and they're going to
mess with you.
If you expose them, they'relikely going to mess with you.
Yeah, how much they mess withyou is probably directly
(51:19):
proportional to how much youexpose them.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
But nonetheless, it's a storm that can be weathered
and you whoever wants to speakout against Scientology, please
do.
You know it was very lonely inthe early days, I would say,
when we started posting andspeaking out.
There were not a whole lot ofpeople doing that, but anyway,
for everyone who's had thecourage to do so, wonderful.
(51:44):
Even in our case, like thephoto that they sent of Mark
factor in, that was from photothat they sent of Mark factor in
, that was from what 20, 20years ago, 20 years ago photo
from 20 years ago is all thatthey have on Mark.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
So you know it is what it is, guys.
And also I know, um, I knowthere's all sorts of other drama
that's happening on theinternet in all sorts of other
factors, not even have to dowith Scientology.
So to me it's sort of like itis what it is.
If you want to know aboutScientology, we'll tell you
about Scientology.
If you want to know about thedrama that happens in
Scientology, we'll tell youabout that, and we'll try to
(52:24):
help you, as much as possible,navigate what is going to happen
if you leave and certainly whatwill happen if you expose them.
And I wouldn't wish that uponanybody who's first leaving.
Yeah, because when you firstleave, you've got work to do.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, the focus needs to be on getting back on your
feet and recovering from oftendecades or an entire life of
trauma.
A lot of steps that one cantake to just get to where you
(53:02):
know what if you decide to speakout like.
Catherine Olson is a wonderfulexample, and of that, um, we
broke her out in June to 2021.
And when she first got out, shedefinitely was not ready to.
There was, you know, the thefocus was on getting a driver's
license teaching.
There was, you know, the thefocus was on getting a driver's
license teaching her to drive.
(53:23):
You know, getting a resume, allthose really really important
life things.
Um, anyway, there you go, justas an example.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Okay, good, I think we get, I think we did.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I think we covered a lot of ground.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Um, if you want to go and look at whoismarkedleycom,
I don't recommend it, but if youwant to, At least use a VPN you
know bag up before you get inthere.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
Somebody emailed me the other day and they were like
you know you can use a VPN.
I'm like, I know I can use aVPN, but I'm the intended
audience.
Why on earth do I want to gowatch their nonsense it's all
full of lies and it's all fullof lies and watch my family
members speak shit about me?
No, thanks, like it's not.
That's not a fun for a Sunday,it's not fun for any day.
(54:05):
So if I watch it then thenthey've accomplished their
purpose.
So you know, thanks, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Okay, good, should we do a giveaway?
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Okay, let's do a giveaway.
Let me see if I get this workedout.
Oh, look at that, it workedperfectly, okay.
Um, if you've typed a comment,it says there's 60 entries.
I don't know if there's 60comments, but I'm going to go
ahead and draw and uh hopefullyour internet challenges have not
messed with this, but whateverit is, we're doing it.
We're doing it.
(54:38):
We're just going to givesomething away.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
We're going to give.
Whoever wins.
They can just send me an email,claire, at blownforgoodcom, and
tell me what they'd like fromeither.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Bina Beck 33.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Nice, there we go.
Congratulations, bina Beck 33.
Send me an email with what youwould like.
We have all kinds of goodies onthe BFG merch store and on the
sp shopcom.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
Um yeah, so just shoot me an email, awesome, okay
, let's go back to oh, oh, whathappened?
It won't, let me do it there.
It is um, okay, um.
Do we want to do?
Um.
Do we want to answer somecomments?
Yep or we want to read somecomments or whatever other
questions, because it questions,because it, here we go.
Here's one.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Okay Question you go through so much nonsense for
just doing the right thing andexposing Scientology.
Have they generally left yourkids alone or do they get hassle
now too?
Hope they don't.
Yeah, we've had conversationswith our children just to make
sure that they understand that,because you know they.
(55:41):
We've always kept it ageappropriate but to help them
understand that we have to keepthem safe and so forth.
So no, it's been minimal.
In fact, when Leah ReminiScientology in the Aftermath
show came out the aftermath showcame out, conversely we had
(56:03):
teachers reaching out to us,multiple teachers saying
literally we will protect yourchildren and do whatever.
We will call the police ifanyone tries any nonsense, which
was obviously deeply moving andreally meaningful to both of us
.
So yeah, that's my answer.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
KDD question.
If they had stopped you goingto your eye appointment, Claire,
do you think you would havestayed or found another way to
escape?
Ps?
Love my BFG hoodie.
If they had succeeded?
So if I hadn't made it to theeye appointment, I would have
kept trying, but it would havedefinitely gotten harder and
(56:48):
harder because I had already.
They were actually trying tointerrogate me the day before
going to that eye doctorappointment and I didn't know
how long I could hold out on.
You know, when they exert theirmental pressure, it's gets
really, really sticky, to put itmildly.
So I would have kept trying.
If they, if they, had succeededin intercepting me in that Las
(57:10):
Vegas bus station, they wouldhave, I would have been under
lock and key for years.
So I um?
Is this the period where Markhides messages in diapers?
Trevon, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (57:25):
So during this time this is a good one actually Um,
that was in the early like 2006,2007 period when we had young
children.
They were, we knew, I or Ididn't know, but I really,
really suspected that they wereum, were taking our garbage and
they were going through thegarbage.
So I would write random phonenumbers on post-it notes and
(57:46):
then I would put those in withthe dirty diapers that we would
throw away.
And anyway, I did have some fun.
Ok, I'm not.
You know, I'm up for a littlebit of nonsense too.
They don't get to have all thefun.
Speaker 2 (57:57):
Yeah, mark got a real kick out of when we actually
got written confirmation thatthey were collecting our trash.
He thoroughly enjoyed that itwas during our son's diaper
years, and yeah so there wasplenty of poopy diapers that
they would have had to searchthrough.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
So yes, oh, thank you , Tricia, for the super chat.
We appreciate that.
I do want to mention thatanything, any super chats or any
things that you send to us onthe blown for good channel,
those support the channel.
If you get any of the stufflinked in the videos that we do
on our channel for the SP shopthe bobble heads and the SP
(58:37):
bracelets and fake Navy Davydolls.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
Don't be Colty these guys over there.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Those all go to support the aftermath foundation
.
Um, and then, blown for goodbooks and any blown for good
merch branded merch is supportsthe channel.
Um, we have, uh, we have a fewmore questions.
Uh, here we go.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
Okay Comment they say that a person can leave on
their free will but at the sametime, they would tell people not
to talk to you.
That is wired altogether.
Yeah, everything thatscientology says pretty much,
especially when it comes toleaving freely, is complete
garbage and anyone in inscientology currently, past,
(59:19):
future will agree with that.
You cannot just leave.
I think Mike Rinder said itbest the difference between a
cult and a religion is whathappens when you try to leave.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
So yeah, yeah, and they also.
I think that person meant totype weird, not wired, but
anyway.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Weird.
Exactly At what point did eachof you stop believing in the
belief system of Scientology?
Was it long before you left, ordid you only start
deconstructing it afterwards?
You?
Want to answer that first.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
I mean I, when I I don't think I think before I
left I was sort of I kind ofrealized that.
I was sort of I kind ofrealized that, um, I think I
realized that it was a uh a uh ascam because they were being
lied to at the base.
(01:00:09):
And then when I realized thateverybody was being lied to all
Sea Org members, all staffmembers, all Scientologists, I
think when I realized thateveryone was being lied to,
that's when I was sort of like Idon't even care if it's real,
if it's fake.
I didn't know about the spacealiens when I was in Scientology
.
But when we left and then Iwatched the South Park episode
(01:00:31):
and I read all the upper levelmaterials and all that, then I
100% knew, oh, this is justbasically a money making scam.
And then and Claire, I don't, Imean you were trying to get
back in touch with your family.
Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Yeah.
So my answer to that is I wasborn into Scientology.
My mother joined the Corganization when I was four
years old, so I felt what myentire life controlled and
leveraged into that system andhonestly held hostage my love
for my family, my love for Markand knowing that.
So the environment we lived wasnot conducive to critical
(01:01:09):
thinking.
It was pretty much theantithesis.
You couldn't question yourbelief because it came at such
great risk to do so.
So the way that I've looked atit is the moment Scientology
became something I couldconsider.
Do I want to believe this ornot?
I chose not to, and that wasthe moment I escaped.
(01:01:29):
And from that point forward,yes, the the path to
deconstructing all of that hasbeen um a long one.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Awesome.
Okay, I think we'll do a lastfew questions and then we'll
perfect.
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
And Mark just listen to your book on audible.
Thank you for sharing yourexperience with us.
You are both an inspiration.
Claire, I strive for your poiseand persistence.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Wow, thank you, thank you, that's very nice I
appreciate that Glad you enjoyedthe book.
Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Yeah, we did when we did the audible Our bedroom.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
I just set up a little desk in our bedroom and
set up a computer.
It was the only place in thehouse that was really quiet
during the day.
Yeah, and I just cranked it outand it was the first time.
I think I've mentioned thisbefore, but I think it was the
first time I actually read thefinished book.
Yes, cover to cover, because Idid all the.
Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
I worked with the editor and the proof,
proofreading and the front andback matter and all that yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
If you guys want, if you want us to do a book, a
video on how we made the bookand how the book got produced,
Let us know.
Bleep, bloop that in thecomments down there and maybe
we'll do a video on that.
Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Yeah, the making of Blown for Good behind the Iron
Curtain of Scientology.
We've talked about itextensively on other channels,
but we've never done it on thischannel Our stories about,
because there were so many crazythings that happened during
that time too, like leading upto the release of the book and
then shipping the books andanyway, whatever.
There's a lot we could talkabout there if anyone's
(01:03:05):
interested in listening.
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Yeah, I like Rebecca B did a good comment here.
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Geez, if Mark had just gone back to the
Scientology when kindly asked,the planet might've been clear
by now.
Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Sorry, about that, guys, I was not on that
bandwagon Hell no.
Okay, guys, we appreciate youguys tuning in and watching.
Now that I'm back from my tripand I haven't left for another
trip, we might squeeze in a fewmore videos in the next week or
(01:03:40):
two or month or whatever.
And we do have a bunch of othervideos coming out on a bunch of
other channels that we've donestuff with, not even really
Scientology related, just otherchannels.
We're trying to reach out toother channels and other people
and other areas of the interwebs.
Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
Yeah and sorry.
I just wanted to mention foranyone who listens to these
shows on our podcast platform wejust hit 750,000 downloads.
Yay, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
That's pretty good for a podcast.
I mean, people tell me that isgood.
I mean I don't know.
You know 750,000 downloads ofthe podcast.
A lot of not every video thatwe've done on YouTube is a
podcast.
But a lot of the videos that wehave done have proved to be
very popular on on Audible ornot Audible Audible is where the
(01:04:36):
book, but on Spotify and Applepodcast I think Apple podcast is
the biggest um channel ofpodcasts, but pretty much
anywhere where you get yourpodcast you can, you can pull up
the blunt for good uh podcastand um, yeah, I think that's
good.
I think, um, uh, hopefullypeople uh enjoy the videos that
(01:04:57):
we're doing.
We don't really make a lot ofmoney off of the YouTube channel
.
I want to say it to me.
If it pays for itself and itdoesn't cost us money, then I
think that's worthwhile and sofar I think that's pretty much
been the case.
We've got somebody doing shorts.
We hope you guys like theshorts.
That's another thing.
(01:05:18):
Bleep, bloop it down below Ifyou think we should make the
shorts another channel.
I have seen some peoplecomplain they get a ton of
notifications because we'reputting out a few shorts every
day and they don't want to watchthose.
But then we get a lot ofcomments that people love the
shorts because they don't wantto watch an hour video, right,
but they love watching theshorts.
So bleep, bloop it.
That's the only way we can knowGive us some input.
(01:05:39):
Give us some input.
Thank you, we appreciateeverybody watching and
commenting and all that goodstuff.
And if you, if you did do acomment in the chat I liked, on
all the places you can go findstuff I put up.
(01:06:00):
I like to put up comments inthere because it's fun, it's a
fun thing to do.
I like to do that, cool, anywayguys, you want.
Yes, thanks for joining us,until next time.
Bye, thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have hail Xenu Xenu is myhomeboy and BFG branded mouse
(01:06:27):
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content ona regular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book Blown for Good Behind
the Iron Curtain of Scientologyin hardback, kindle and audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast and you can get that on
Apple, spotify or wherever youlisten to podcasts, and if you'd
(01:06:49):
like to watch another video,you can click on this link right
here, or you can click on thisone here, or you can click on
the subscribe button right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.
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