March 27, 2025 • 60 mins
Former Sea Org members share their experiences of becoming parents after leaving Scientology, exploring the challenges of starting families without educational backgrounds or parental models to follow. They discuss how disconnection from their own parents impacted their approach to parenting and how they've built successful lives despite the organization's efforts to hinder them.
• Marc and Claire Headley discuss raising three boys while processing their own experiences of parental separation in Scientology
• Janice Gillum-Grady shares her journey of being pregnant when leaving the Sea Org and building a family outside the organization
• The speakers describe the financial challenges of starting families with limited education and resources
• Claire recounts calling Dr. Laura Schlesinger for parenting advice when worried about how disconnection would affect her children
• All three discuss how they've achieved professional success through determination despite lacking formal education
• They reflect on how the absence of concepts like love, compassion and empathy in Scientology impacted their approach to parenting
• The parents share strategies for explaining their Scientology past to their children in age-appropriate ways
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hi everybody, welcome to our channel.
Hi, this is Mark Fisher, withour Scientology Stories Peeling
the Onion, and we're doing asimulcast with Blown for Good's
channel, which is Mark Headleyand Claire Headley, and, of
course, my co-cast with Blownfor Good's channel, which is
Mark Hedley and Claire Hedley,and, of course, my co-host,
janice Gillum-Grady, is here aswell.
Hi everybody, welcome to thechannel.
Hi, so we're simultaneouslystreaming on both our channel
(00:37):
and Mark and Claire's channel,so you can watch us on either
one.
But if you haven't subscribedto our channels, please do so.
I'm sure.
Subscribe to Mark and Claire,subscribe to us, we'd really
appreciate it.
And how's everybody?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
doing today Good, it's Thursday, so things are
looking up.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
And it's after two.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It's Thursday after two, so that's a good thing, yay
, yeah, so hopefully we all hadour stats up for the week and
we're going to have a goodweekend.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Absolutely so.
What's going to happen?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I tuned my stats in just before I came in here.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Nice, can you guys hear me?
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yes we can hear you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
You're much crackling in my ear a little bit, Mark,
but now it's good.
Anyway, what we're going to dois we're doing a show here
talking about parenting afterScientology, but then it's going
to lead directly into Mark'sshow with Mitch Brisker, and so
you don't have to leave thechannel, it's just automatically
going to transfer you over soyou can watch both shows
(01:40):
together, and that's how we setit up to make it nice and smooth
for the viewers out there.
So, anyway, we wanted towelcome everybody here and we're
going to go ahead and getstarted.
I was going to ask Claire andJanice and Mark, I've never had
kids, unfortunately.
I never had kids after the SeaOrg.
But go ahead, claire and Janice, how many kids do you have and
(02:01):
what are their ages?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Sure, so, speaking for Mark and I, we have three
boys.
Uh, so in my case I have fourboys.
Um, you know, Mark.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I think it's Claire's mic that's crackling, Unless I
crackle too when I talk no, youdon't, it's Claire's mic.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, your mic is crackling, babe.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh, that's not fun.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Just switch over, Just switch it off and switch it
back over, but I'll talk whileClaire is fixing that.
Yeah, we have a 10-year-old, a15-year-old and a 17-year-old
and I think the crazy thing forme is seeing them at certain
milestone ages, like when Clairewas four, when her mom joined
(02:49):
the Sea Org, so when, when ourfirstborn son was four, you
think like, oh, how would it beif we just leave this guy with
some people and maybe see him anhour a day or maybe even once a
week?
And I can't even fathom, Ican't even fathom having a dog
(03:09):
that I see once a week, muchless a child.
So it's a, it's the wildest,it's, it is very um it.
It just it's one of thosethings that I can't wrap my head
around how my mom thought thatthat was a good idea or that was
(03:30):
even something that you coulddo.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Claire's back.
Can we hear you now, claire?
Are you there?
Claire?
No, she went out again.
Janice, how many kids do youhave?
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I have two.
I have a 32-year-old boy and a29-year-old girl and then I have
a three-and-a-half-year-oldgranddaughter, right.
But I agree with Marcus.
Like as my kids hit certainages, I was like, what were my
parents thinking?
And while my mother, you know,left three children on the Royal
(04:06):
Scotsman, on a ship in themiddle of the Mediterranean
while she was in America anddidn't see us, she saw us maybe
three or four times in fiveyears and my dad didn't see us
at all, from the age of 12 to 17.
And they were proud of us.
But it's's like my mother said,she petitioned to have us
(04:29):
return to her but that was, thatwas denied, but she didn't she,
she did not pursue it and say,hey, wait a minute, and she
thought we were in good hands.
So basically.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So, yeah, you all, you all basically can't imagine,
after having kids, you know,your parents leaving you in the
c organization.
Right, it just doesn't make anysense at all, did it?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
yeah no, it's literally it's literally
unthinkable that that what theydid, like to me, I just, I just
can't even it, wouldn't even, itwouldn't even be, it wouldn't.
I wouldn't want to say thatthere would be.
In no scenario Would I be okaywith that situation.
Like to just, I would just belike no, that's not.
(05:14):
Like, oh, they're going to go,and well, who are they going to
be with?
Where are they going to be?
When are they going to?
You know, it would be, it wouldbe so much that it would just
be like oh no, this isridiculous, this is, this is,
it's unthinkable yeah okay.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So, janice, I know you, you were pregnant with your
son john, when you left the seaorgan.
That's one of the reasons whyyou left.
Uh, mark and claire, and, andand when did you all decide that
you were going to have, start afamily and have children?
And and what was it like whenyou first, you know know, found
out you were pregnant and youwere going to have babies.
Same for you, janice.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, so I would answer to that.
Obviously, when we escaped, itwas like start your life over
again.
Mark jokes that we neverplanned to have children yet,
but of course you know we alwayswanted kids, and so Mark
escaped in the beginning ofJanuary 2005.
(06:08):
I followed three weeks afterthat and by I think it was May,
may or June I was pregnant andthat was just amazing.
You know, it was like wow, newbeginnings, right, mark?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
you know, it was like wow, new beginnings, right,
Mark?
Yeah, I mean, we, we, we hadour first kid like a year after
we had escaped.
So it was pretty much yeah, itwas pretty much about a year and
a few days that's how close itwas to when we had our first son
.
But yeah, we had our first son.
(06:51):
But uh, yeah, it really reallymade me change my whole concept
of scientology and how theytreat a family, because they're
they're always uh, it's allabout, um, the group and your
family and your second dynamicand your third dynamic.
In the end of the day, theydon't care about any of that,
like it's not even, it doesn'teven factor in to any
decision-making skills.
It's just like, oh no, the kidsneed to just be gotten away as
(07:13):
a distraction.
We just got to move them awayso we can get all this work done
.
And when you have kids, it'salmost like it's all about the
kids and everything else comessecond, comes after that, even
each other.
Like, the kids come first andthen we deal with us.
(07:33):
And in Scientology, the kidsare.
They might not even make thelist of things we're worried
about.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I know Totally.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
I mean that's yes, worried about, yeah, I know I
mean that's yes, on the on,whenever in the c org kids are
sort of like it's just a thingwe have to deal with, you know
well, parent well.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
people who did not have kids, you could tell they
had an animosity towards thosedid have kids because they got
that extra hour every day to gosee their kids, or if you're.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I was going to say that is exactly what I witnessed
too.
You'd see, the other Sea Orgmembers or the other staff would
be like you'd say oh, where'sBob?
Oh, they're off with their kid,you know they're at family time
for an hour and they're beingwith their kid, you know they're
at family time for an hour andthey're being, you know,
criticized and berated forbasically taking an hour off in
(08:31):
the middle of the day yeah, oron family day, they all got to
take their kids for the wholeday and if you didn't have kids,
you didn't get the day off, youknow mark somebody's saying in
the chat your your volume's alittle low on your microphone.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Is there a way you can turn it up?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
There you go.
Oh, that's much better.
Sorry about that.
Well, let me ask you both aquestion Claire and Janice and
Mark.
So when you get out obviouslyJanice was pregnant when she got
out, and then Mark and Claire,you were just starting your life
outside of Scientology howscary was it financially to go?
I've got a kid coming right nowand I still have to set up my
(09:08):
career.
I mean, what was that like?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, big adventure.
You just take it a day at atime, right, I know I remember
that.
So we were in Kansas City andMark had moved back to LA at the
time that I and you know.
So we were in Kansas City andMark had moved back to LA at the
time that I and you know, so wewere kind of in transition.
He'd gotten this job offer andit was too good to pass up.
You know, when you've been, whenyou're starting your life over
(09:34):
from scratch, it's, it's a hugeundertaking.
Like everything is just, how dowe manage this, how do we do
this?
And then on top of that yes,you're right, factor in
pregnancy insurance.
You don't know how any of thatworks, hadn't been to a doctor
and like I don't know other than, like you know, mandatory
(09:56):
things.
And it's funny because actuallyby the time I moved to LA to re
, you know, we settled and wehad an apartment and kind of had
things situated.
I was um five months pregnantalready by the first time I went
to see the doctor and thedoctor was like, so were you
planning to come at all?
Or like what's the deal?
(10:17):
I'm like yeah, yeah, no, no,we're, we're just I don't know
how this works.
I don't have anyone to talk tothat's ever had kids, like you
know.
Oh my gosh.
And they're.
And she's like, well, it'salready time for your, your
ultrasound and we're gonna findout if it's a boy or a girl,
where we were like, wow okay andjanice.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You got you both mentioned, claire and janice.
They don't teach you thisbiology when you were growing up
in Scientology as a kid, right?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
No.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
No anatomy classes or anything.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Reading, writing and arithmetic, no sex education, no
anatomy class, none of that butyou did learn the 2D rules.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
The 2D rules you learned right.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The 2D rules and the way to happiness Don't be
promiscuous.
That's about it.
That sums it up right there,that's your education.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well, when we got married, Paul actually gave me a
book.
It's also a sex education typebook, so I would have some
understanding.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Paul bought you a sex education book.
Paul bought you a sex educationbook.
I think the only book we hadwas what to expect when, when
expecting?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think that was the book when you're expecting.
That was your mic is cracklingfull-time.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Claire full-time.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I don't know what to do then.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
You're not on your sure, mike.
You're on your laptop, mike, orsomething else, or computer,
mike.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Mark.
So, mic Mark, what about you asfar as financially?
And all that when you're firststarting out, when Claire's
pregnant?
What was that like for you asthe father?
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Well, I was lucky to pretty much start working as
soon as I left, like I, withinwithin a day or two I was making
$50 an hour after leaving,after making $46 a week for 120
hour week.
Um, I went straight in to uhfixing computers and and just
(12:18):
had a full-time job and um, andthen basically, when we uh, we
were in Kansas City for a fewmonths, we had like a
two-bedroom apartment which wegot just in case my dad needed
to move.
He was going through.
Very shortly after we got out,him and his wife ended up
(12:41):
getting a divorce and sellingtheir house and doing that, and
so we got an apartment with anextra bedroom so that, if he
needed to, he could stay with us.
And then we ended up moving toLos Angeles within a few months
and that is, we were probablythere for about six months
(13:02):
before our first kid was born.
But, um, I had a full-time jobin Los Angeles at a
post-production company for awhile and then I also worked for
uh like a telecom, a telecomapt, uh, uh, well, it was really
a company that was making someapps for phones when they were
still flip phones.
There was no, I don't eventhink there was an iPhone, yet
(13:23):
when, when they were makingthese, these uh things that
would read your text messages oremails for you and um, so we,
we, I, I, luckily, um was ableto get work right away, and then
Claire was also, um, had afull-time job, so, um, we were
actually doing pretty good.
We didn't think we did muchbetter than we thought we would,
(13:46):
having no high school education, not having a resume of pretty
much anything, and so we kind oflucked out in that department
and it wasn't that big of a deal.
Definitely sort of like, uh, wegot to make a ton of money
because we're going to have akid, and so we that's kind of
(14:08):
how we planned it.
And then it just, you know, itwas definitely uh, I don't want
to say it was yeah, I guess itwas stressful, just that.
Oh, what are we going to do?
What are, how are we going to?
You know, how are we going todo this?
And we don't have a goodtemplate to follow from our
(14:30):
mothers.
So it was sort of like, yeah,this is not.
I mean, we had a low bar set byby my mom and Claire's mom, so
it was sort of anything thatClaire did would be better than
either of them, and the factthat there was a dad involved
was a bonus.
So it was sort of like okay,great, I mean my dad was around,
but him and my mom split up andhe didn't want to make any
(14:53):
trouble because he knew becausehe wasn't a Scientologist, then
he'd get cut right off.
Played it safe when you knowthings.
My mom wanted us to doScientology stuff or you know,
do that follow along with thatwhole you know culture.
My dad was just like I don'twant to make trouble because
(15:14):
otherwise I'll never talk again.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And Janice.
Janice, you and Paul had atotally different experience,
didn't you?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Financially and everything.
When you got out out right, whydon't you tell that story?
Well, we left and we went to mybrother, who had left eight
years before, and, um, I was oneand a half months pregnant, but
I thought I was further along.
So my sister-in-law was likewell, we've got to get you in
for a doctor's checkup, and I'mlike a doctor anyway, how many
months when you went for yourfirst appointment oh no, it was
well.
(15:53):
Here's the story that it wasjust one and a half months, but
I thought I was further along.
Oh, because that I go to thedoctor and he they lived up in
upper ohio, which was a smalllittle place, and a friend of
theirs was the doctor down theroad and he had a place in santa
paula.
So I went down to see him, hedid a blood test and so forth,
(16:15):
and he comes back with the bloodtest and he says, um, your
child might be be retarded, andso we want to do further testing
.
And they couldn't get, so theywanted to put me in for an
amniothin cesis yeah and it was,and it would take two weeks to
get the result.
Boy did that, screw with my headfor two weeks just wondering
(16:41):
what kind of child was I goingto have?
And I have no money and what.
You know what am I going tohave and I have no money and
what am I going to do?
So they did the amnioticincisus and that's when they
found out that my dates were offand that I was going to have a
boy and everything was fine.
But that two weeks was purehell and I was like I'm not
(17:02):
coming back to doctors.
That was my one and only realexperience with a doctor.
So anyway, that was my start ofhaving a perfectly healthy son.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
How about financially , though?
How about financially?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Financially we had very little money.
You know, we had some bonusmoney we'd saved up, but Paul
had been on the RPF for a whileand so he had used that when he
tried to escape.
At one point He'd used up someof that on a hotel.
So I contacted MarshallGoldblatt, who is a wealthy
(17:45):
Scientologist, and I toldMarshall I called some other
Scientology friends and theywere like sorry, can't help you,
you're blowing.
And so I called Marshall and Isaid I don't want money, I'll do
something in exchange.
And it's still there.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Yeah, I thought it was Claire, but now it's
happening even though she's noton, so I think it might be
something with stream yard.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, I don't hear you either.
I don't hear any buzzing at all, so yeah anyway.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
so I'll contact marshall and I had those asi
prints that they were sellingfor like $3,000 or something
ridiculous.
Anyway, I called Marshall andhe offered to buy them from me
and I arranged for my dad todrop them off and he wired me
several thousand dollars.
So I was like, oh, what arelief.
(18:41):
You know, because now I atleast have three grand.
And then I started babysitting.
Can you imagine coming out ofthe sea and babysitting?
I was so militant to thesechildren.
I was like, okay, let's dosomething fun.
We're going to make cookies.
(19:03):
But everything had to beperfect, condition you couldn't
spill.
You know, I must have justdriven those kids nuts
babysitting them, trying to makeperfect cookies with no
spilling.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You know, yeah, and Mark and Claire, our living
situation was we got atwo-bedroom apartment in Vegas.
Paul and Janice were in onebedroom, terry and Fernando were
in the other bedroom and Islept on the pullout couch while
Janice was pregnant because wehad no jobs.
We were just getting started.
We didn't even know what amortgage was getting into the
mortgage business and it wascommission only.
(19:39):
So it was like how are yougoing to make any money to make
ends meet?
That was what was so crazy.
And Janice, I remember Paul, hepinched every penny right.
He made sure that every pennywent somewhere positive.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
So this guy couldn't waste money.
I came to Vegas first and hestayed in Ojai helping my
brother do some constructionwork, to finish a job there, so
he could make some money andthen join us in Vegas while we
were setting up the mortgagecompany.
Yeah, we didn't know what amortgage was, and here we were
(20:15):
opening up a mortgage companyWow.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I think that's unanimously something.
No Sea Org member knows what amortgage is right.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Let me ask you a general question now.
Okay, having been inScientology and then getting out
, okay, what are some of thethings like did you use anything
that you learned in Scientologyin terms of raising your kids
as parents?
Do you know what I mean Interms of anything that you
learned?
Like, how did you even did theyeven know that you were in
(20:48):
Scientology before?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, just a general questionlike that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well for me.
I found a midwife and I did theBradley method and I went to
different classes on that andthen.
But I told the midwife it hadto be a silent birth but and I
remember during the birthhearing her crunching on potato
chips.
Can you stop?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
John's gonna get.
John's gonna get keyed in everytime he hears potato chips the
rest of his life.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
He's going to be watching a football game and
someone's going to crunch aLay's chip or something he's
going to be like.
Ah.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I mean, the whole room was silent, except this
crunch.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
She's telling me it's okay, just let it happen, you
know, and she had John on thefloor in the living room of our
apartment.
I was upstairs At that point.
Kenny Lipton had moved to town,and so we waited upstairs in
his apartment, upstairs, whileJanice was having the baby on
the floor with the midwife.
Wow, couldn't afford a hospital.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
No, the midwife cost $500 from start to finish.
I had no insurance and she waslike, if there's any problems, I
have a van outside and I havean oxygen tank and I know where
the closest hospital is and I'mlike there won't be any problems
.
Oh my God, Three hours later,pushing every vein in my face,
(22:24):
it probably burst.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
How about you, claire ?
What was your?
What was your birth like whenyou had your first son?
Did you guys go to the hospitalor what'd you do?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
We did.
Yeah, it was funny.
A month before we had our son,somebody that we knew was like
oh, we should do a baby shower.
And I was like what's a babyshower?
What do you mean?
What's that about?
And she was like, oh, uh, weshould do a baby shower.
And I was like what's a babyshower?
What do you mean, what's thatabout?
And she was like you don't knowwhat a baby shower is I'm like
Nope, Anyway.
Um, but yeah, no, we we had ourson at the hospital, Um, and it
(22:58):
was a very long drawn out event,right, Honey, like 48 hours, Um
, I think, from start to finish.
It was because I was inducedthe first time.
I was kind of in retrospect, Iwas, you know, again I had, I
just had no experience, noreference.
So the doctor just kind of said, Well, he's only gonna get
(23:20):
bigger.
So what do you want to do?
I'm like I guess I'm gonna tohave the baby.
Is that the right answer here.
Okay, so I was induced thefirst time, really tough, really
long and and.
And it was amazing to me howthe different nurses kind of
(23:41):
like.
Really, there was this oneparticular nurse that completely
freaked Mark and I out Like shecame in.
She's like particular nursethat completely freaked Mark and
I out Like she came in.
She's like your oxygen'sdropping, the baby's oxygen is
dropping.
We need to get you on oxygenright now.
He's got the umbilical cordwrapped around his neck and
we're like what, what's going on?
Anyway, then the next nurse camein who was like you know, had
(24:01):
been around forever, obviously,and she was like ripped the
oxygen off of me.
She was like that's a bunch ofnonsense, everything's fine,
you're fine, everything's goingto be okay.
But yeah, so everything wasokay.
It was, you know, just wow,like what an experience.
And I think you know,unfortunately, you know we were.
So we were delivering my son inBurbank, california, that's
(24:26):
where we lived at the time andmy parents lived in La Crescenta
, and so after our son was born,or shortly after Mark, you
should tell the story about whenyou called my mom shortly after
.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Mark, you should tell the story about when you called
my mom.
Yeah, I, um, I basically calledclaire's mom on the phone and I
said hey, just want to makesure you know claire had the
baby.
This is how much she weighed.
Everything's good, she'shealthy, um and fine.
The baby's healthy and fine.
Click, she literally just hungup.
Because she was disconnectedfrom Claire, right, yeah,
because we were both.
In January of 2005, right whenwe escaped, we were declared
(25:10):
suppressives and they were alltold, but we weren't.
So for months we were sort ofplaying along with them like
okay, yeah, well, what do youneed us to do?
Were sort of playing along withthem like, okay, yeah, well,
what do you need us to do?
We'll, we'll see if we canfigure something out.
You know, just so we wouldn'tcause them any trouble and they
wouldn't cause us any trouble.
And, um, and Claire was talkingwith her mother and we were
(25:31):
talking to people, we but wedidn't know that they'd already
been told that we were declaredSPS and not to talk to us.
And then when we finally endedup going back to Los Angeles in
April of 2005, I ended up goingback to get whatever stuff that
we still had.
They packed it up in a U-Hauland we met them like at a
(25:52):
rendezvous point to pick up thetruck with all the stuff.
And when I went to that, theygave me the declares the
suppressive person declares.
It's actually an issue thatsays you know, mark Headley is
declared a suppressive person.
Or it says at the topsuppressive person, declare.
I think that's actually what itsays at the top, and they were
(26:14):
dated January and I was sort oflike you guys have been messing
with us and kind of putting on ashow for four months and it was
like, yeah, this is nonsense.
And so then when I called herthe next time, we probably
hadn't talked to them in a yearor more by the time we had our
(26:35):
first child and it was like,yeah, they're not talking.
Uh, they're not, they're notpicking, they're not talking on
the phone to us.
That's it, it's done.
And so the three boys, ourthree boys, have never met, um,
claire's, any of Claire's familyever.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
My boy, I was going to ask how how it has
disconnected disconnectedaffected your children that were
now teenagers and older andsame with you, janice, cause
your father.
Father was disconnected withfrom you for a while too.
How has that affected them?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
yeah, I'll go first.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
My my answer to that is your mic is it's crackles so
bad claire that we literallycannot hear you I don't hear
anything.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Is it crack crackling ?
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, it's deaf On my end it's.
I can't hear you.
I can only hear crackling.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
OK.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Every time you talk, it crackles Go ahead Dennis.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Well, what happened with me was my dad.
When we first moved to Vegas hecame out and visited us and a
private investigator reportedthat dad was in vegas seeing us.
So dad got pulled in by officeof special affairs for two years
of sick checking so he didn'tsee the kids.
(27:53):
And then and he before beforewe moved to vegas he did see my
brother's kids a few times.
So then what he did was anon-Scientologist she had been a
Scientologist but she wasn't onanyone's lines.
She worked it out for Dad to goto a hotel at Disneyland and we
(28:13):
would go to Disneyland with thekids my brother and his kids and
me and mine, the kids, mybrother and his kids and me and
mine and she would then take allfour of his grandchildren over
to another hotel to visit himand that way he didn't have to
deal with us SPs but he got tomeet and spend some time with
his grandkids and I think Aaronwas probably about four years
(28:38):
old at that time, so John wasseven, richard was eight, you
know Yvonne was probably about12.
So that's how we did it, so thathe could get to see them.
And I always sent himphotographs and I did a yearly
calendar with pictures on it andwould send that to him so he
could kind of watch them grow.
(28:59):
Would send that to him so hecould kind of watch them grow.
And doing that actually helped,because one day he suddenly
called me on my birthday to wishme happy birthday and I'm like
how did you remember my birthday?
Well, I have your calendar herein front of me, you know.
So that helped open up thatcommunication line with him was
(29:21):
by just always sending letterswith photographs in the calendar
.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Wow, yeah, janice has been a big proponent of that.
If your family's disconnectedfrom you, still send them cards
and letters and birthday photosand stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
You'd never know when they're going to reach out.
You know, right, yeah, that's agood point.
I never even thought about that.
That, um, you know, we, we seeum, my sister's, um friends of
my sister, cause my sister alsoum stopped talking uh with us as
well and now she has been uhkicked out of the Sea Org and
she lives in Clearwater, and sowe see people that are her
(30:04):
friends on Facebook.
There's kind of like there'ssome people that are kind of
under the radar but they'refriends with Scientologists and
they're friends with SPs andthey sort of kind of live in
this gray area.
So some, every once in a while,people will send us stuff and
like, oh, your sister had a kid,or your sister moved to Florida
, or your you know whatever.
So every once in a while we'llsee stuff because we're blocked,
(30:27):
so we can't.
If we go on to social media, wethat we just don't even see
that they have a profile becausethey've blocked us.
So it is what it is.
Every once in a while we'll seeyou know something?
Okay, claire, let's hear it.
Let's hear.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Testing, testing.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Well, now you're muted, so that's not going to
work at all.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I can't hear her.
Oh, you did, I heard her.
Oh my goodness, claire, saysomething.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Testing one, two, three.
Testing one, two, three.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
There you go.
I can hear her.
She's just a little low if youturn the volume up.
If not, just get close to themicrophone either way.
But yeah, no, you're in.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Okay, awesome.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Perfect, Now let's get to you now about what I
asked about how hasdisconnection, you know,
affected your children, you knownot being able to see their
grandparents, and things likethat.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
What you know not being able to see their
grandparents, and things likethat.
What do they even think aboutthat, you know?
Yes, so I would say that, um,after our second son was born, I
kind of had a existentialcrisis, as it were, in that, um,
I I lost my dad to throughdisconnection when I was three
years old and I completelyblamed myself.
So when I had kids of my own,my biggest concern was that they
(31:44):
would think it was their fault,as I thought it was my fault
when I was three years old, andso when my second son was like a
few months old, it reallystarted to hit me like what am I
going to tell my kids when theyrealize I have no grandparents?
and, oh my gosh, a lot ofemotions were bubbling at the
surface.
So so, my, my decision was tocall Dr Laura and say Dr Laura
(32:09):
Schlesinger, you know, she'safamily therapist in California.
She had a radio show, and so I,I this was, I think, 2009 by
now.
And so Scientology was still solitigious that I, you know, we
weren't really.
It was like, eh, don't touchthat with a 10 foot pole.
(32:31):
So for the from thisperspective of calling a radio
show, I figured out how to coucheverything in such a way as to
never mention the wordScientology.
I figured out how to coucheverything in such a way as to
never mention the wordScientology, and so I called the
first time I'd spoke withKimberly, the screener, I
explained the whole story andand she was like Okay, okay,
you're, you're in line.
And unfortunately, that timethe show ended before I got on,
(32:54):
and then another.
It took me another four monthsto get up the guts to call back
do it again.
And good old Kimberly rememberedme and bumped me to the front
of the line.
I was like oh my God.
And of course, the moment I goton with Dr Laura, the
floodgates opened and I was justbawling right now.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
But so I asked her.
I'm like what do I tell my kids?
(33:15):
I explained the wholecircumstance.
Like, my husband and I wereboth born into this organization
and you know whatever.
I explained it all in terms thatnever used the word Scientology
, and Dr Laura was like I knowexactly what you're talking
about.
This is an organization thatrepresents itself as being about
love, and it's not.
(33:36):
They shun you, it's leveragecontrol, and the best thing you
can do with your kids is always,only ever, tell them the truth,
and that way you know that theywill never go down that path
and it was.
It sounds ridiculously simple,but it was just such solid
advice and it really helped megain perspective that actually
(33:58):
the emotions I was feeling wasbecause of my relationship with
my parents and my mom and mystepdad and my dad that I lost
when I was three to Scientology,and so that was my emotions.
Unfortunately, I also came toterms with the fact that my
family, by their choices, havemade themselves strangers to my
(34:20):
children, so therefore it meansnothing to my children.
They don't know who they areand therefore you know I'm not
going to insert that loss onthem.
It has to do with me, not mychildren, and what I can do as a
mom is to surround my kids withunconditional love and teach
them what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, it's almost like if the parents, if the
grandparents, had died beforethe kids were even born.
They don't even know.
Both of my mother's parentswere dead when the year I I was
born.
I never knew them, so you haveno emotional attachment to them,
janice.
How about you?
How what you know?
What about you?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
yeah, well.
Yeah, well my mother passedaway years before I even left
the field, so my kids didn'thave a grandmother on my side of
the family, but Kimma Douglastook on that position as a
grandmother for them and MikeDouglas took on as a grandfather
(35:16):
.
She was called Grand Kimma andyou know it was just the kim in
there, but her grandma yeah umyeah, but she took on that job
and they just loved her like agrandmother and she'd they'd go
visit her or would all go visither.
So they had that substitute.
It was good yeah, that's nice.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I was gonna say.
You know, we had a.
We had a discussion withApostate Alex and Janice's
daughter Erin, and one of theconcepts that my dad pointed out
to me after I left Scientologywas the concept of love is not
present in Scientology.
You know, we talk aboutaffinity and ARC.
It's not the same as love,right, and it's completely
(35:58):
missing, and I totally agreewith that.
You know what I mean.
I'd like to get your feelingson that, that's not my dog.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Oh, is that janice it's, I gotta mute myself, but I
don't see where to mute myselfI can mute you, janice, go ahead
, I ahead, I got it there we goOkay, go ahead, claire.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, it is very strange how love has been
removed from the terminology ofScientology and its affinity and
its place, and in fact, in theTED Talk that I drafted, that I
did on the Blown for Goodchannel I, I talk about that.
That unconditional love doesnot exist in scientology.
(36:42):
The love from your parents isentirely dependent and
completely on your cooperationand participation in scientology
.
In the moment you cease that,that you're out, you're on your
own.
See, you wouldn't want to be.
Uh, you know um, and uh yeah.
(37:03):
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Audio challenges today.
Huh, you, you, you said it, notme.
Um, yeah, no, I, I.
I think that, um, I thinkthat's a pretty accurate
statement.
They really don't value family.
They don't value there's.
No, it's really just, I think,what do they call it?
(37:26):
They call it mis-emotion.
If you have apathy, or if youhave, you know great, if you
love somebody.
It's just like.
That's just kind of like youknow you don't need to.
Emotions are sort of like addedand inapplicable, Like we don't
, we don't need any of that.
That doesn't, that doesn'tforward our cause at all.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
How about you, Janice , Can we?
Is your dog done?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
No, she says, he's still gone.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I was going to say the other okay, I was going to
say, though, the other thing iscompassion.
Compassion is not inScientology, compassion for
other people and empathy.
Good point, yes, yes, very much.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
So.
Yeah, no, in fact, if you, ifyou had empathy or compassion,
you were a bad person and not,uh, you know anyway.
Oh, janice is good, now, herewe go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Go ahead Janice, love , love, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Yeah, it is missing.
You know you've got the ARC.
Is that really the same?
No, no, it's not.
So yeah, you pretty muchcovered what I would have said.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Well, and Janice Hubbard really didn't have any.
He never showed any real lovetowards his family or anything,
did he?
I mean in terms of the way thatyou and Claire probably showed
towards your children?
Speaker 3 (38:48):
No, he definitely did not, you know.
I mean, he rarely saw his kidsand it took the household unit
saying let's invite the wholefamily to dinner every night,
you know, when we were on theship and then the kids started
eating with him but it startedaffecting their jobs because if
(39:10):
he was still working, mary Sueand the kids would be waiting.
Well, mary Sue would keepworking, but the kids would be
sitting around waiting, you know.
So he didn't kind of go out ofhis way for the kids at all.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
And I felt sorry, to be honest with you, with his
kids.
I felt sorry for them, Suzetteand Arthur, because Hubbard had
no real relationship with themand yet he's supposed to be the
paragon of the second dynamicand you know the person, the
ultimate authority.
But his kids had problems inScientology.
(39:43):
They had problems.
We had to deal with them.
When I worked for Miscavige,arthur, hubbard was sent to the
RPF out at Happy Valley and wehad to deal with him while he
was out there and I feltcompletely out of place.
You know, just crazy stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Arthur had a wife and a stepson and the Guardian's
office didn't like that.
Her father was a politician inFrance and they forced him to
divorce her Because they didn'twant that political connection
through France.
You know that's terrible.
(40:19):
They don't have that right yeah, yeah, exactly, all right.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I wanted to ask you another question on a different
angle of parenting.
How about who's that?
Is that janice's dog?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
yeah, I think the bug , I think the bug man is here.
That's okay, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Tell me if my audio sounds better now.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Mark, just bypassed me yeah, much better, yes, sorry
.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I had a Zoom call and I forgot.
He was like no, check.
And I'm like I checked, Ichecked, and he's like no, you
have to check over here.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Anyway, he just fixed it, so sorry about that yeah,
he just fixed it, so sorry okay,one of the jobs as a parent is
educating, or making sure thatyour kids get educated and learn
right.
I mean, your parents obviouslydidn't do that because they were
gone right, but what, what?
What did you learn?
Or, as a parent, what didn'tyou know about teaching or
(41:17):
getting your kids educated?
You know through all that.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh, my goodness, Speaking for myself.
So my family moved to the USwhen I was 13 years old and
never put me back in school.
So you have to factor in thosetwo elements in my case, number
one I never went to school.
And number two, I never went toschool in the US, never went to
(41:43):
school.
And number two, I never went toschool in the U?
S.
And so I for a while, when Ifirst moved to the U?
S, I was literally doinghomeschool.
I I do the quotation marksbecause what that meant is I
would go to the library andstudy about Ferdinand Magellan
and Christopher Columbus, andyou know like I went from
English curriculum to American,which is vastly different,
(42:06):
completely different worldsapart and with no supervision.
So when it came to my kids, Iwas like, oh no, education is
not, is not optional 100%.
You know, um, and, and it's,it's.
It's challenging, especiallynow that they're teenagers, like
you know.
I don't know that we'renecessarily the best yardsticks
(42:29):
to be enforcing that on our kids.
Like our kids are smart, sothey'll be like well, you don't
have a high school diploma, sowhy do I need one?
And we're like, yeah, no,that's not how this works.
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,nope.
Not optional.
You are going to graduate overmy dead body.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Well, I always had Paul do the homework with the
kids.
Yeah, because he at least wentto college, where the last
public school I did was Ifinished grade six and I did one
or two months of seventh gradeand that was it.
So I didn't even go to highschool, or two months of junior
(43:08):
high, if it starts at seventhgrade.
So, yeah, I didn't even botherwith the homework.
I'm like Paul, you do that.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, I was going to say both of you.
Despite the fact that youdidn't get a high school
education or whatever, both ofyou have learned by the seat of
your pants and become successfulin the fields that you're in.
Janice is a mortgage in themortgage industry and Claire you
in the finance and accountingindustry, as well as other
things.
I mean, it's pretty amazing,isn't it, Don't you think that
(43:39):
you guys I think it was yourdetermination, I don't know what
else, what do you think, whatdo you equate it with, and why
you were so successful despitethe fact that you didn't have a
high school education?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
You go ahead, Janice.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Determination, I mean , and belief in yourself.
I remember you know I workedwith you, mark and Paul, and
Terry and Fernando, and we setup a mortgage company and so
forth, and then, as time went on, you know, terry got into being
a realtor and then Paul and Iwere the ones with the mortgage
company still, and I got tiredof being with Paul 24 hours,
(44:15):
working with him and living withhim.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
You did go out on your own too.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
That's nice, that's awesome, yeah, no, Claire and I
had a um, we had pretty muchfull-time jobs, so we were, you
know, we were doing our ownthing for a lot of time.
And then, you know, when shestarted working for my company
and I started doing stuff withher and then so it kind of
worked out good for us that way.
(44:49):
But Claire is, I mean.
I mean I would be a mess on theground without all the stuff
that Claire does.
She really takes care ofbusiness for me on a lot of
stuff that I wouldn't be able todo.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Sometimes that bites me in the butt when he's like,
come on now, you can do this Ximpossible task.
There's nothing you can't do.
I'm like, wait a minute, comeon now.
Yeah, I know.
I would say that one thing Idid take away and I don't
attribute this to Hubbard, notbecause he's not the source of
(45:23):
it he didn't create a dictionary, for example but I would say
that I did learn that I couldstudy anything and learn it, no
matter what it is, and so I hadno problem getting a California
realtor license when we were inCalifornia and had no problem
just diving into any field thatI set my heart to, and obviously
(45:47):
it's important to findsomething that you love doing.
But if you're willing to divein and really work hard, there's
really nothing you can'taccomplish.
Is my personal view, and and um, you know it's.
It does take persistence andlong hours and willing to, you
(46:07):
know, do whatever it takes, butyou can do it.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah, yeah, and Mark, mark, you're the same too, mark
, because you started yourbusiness from nothing.
I mean, how did you learn aboutall the audio stuff and all
this?
I mean, didn't you just learnit yourself, right?
Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yeah, for the most part I sort of dabbled in that
when I was working at Golden AirProductions.
Over the many, over the 15years I was there, I was either
overseeing audio visual systemsor I was in charge of film
production or video productionor manufacturing, so I sort of
had a very wide-rangingknowledge base of audiovisual
(46:44):
stuff.
And so when I left, I actuallywent and worked at a production
company that made movies likeMovies of of the week and TV
shows, uh, in theirpost-production department.
And then, um, and when thatended, um, they actually just
closed down the whole uh sort ofpost-production uh department
that I worked in.
(47:04):
But, um, after they did that,um, I was sort of like I need to
start my own thing so that Idon't have a job hanging over me
that Scientology, can you know,get me fired from.
So the only person who's notgoing to fire me is me, so I'm
going to have to work for me.
That's pretty much how thatended up, and the same thing for
(47:26):
Claire.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, you reminded me of another story that relates
to becoming a parent afterScientology.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
I'm going to duck out because I got to get ready for
my five at my five o'clock showwith Mitch so thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Thanks, honey See you in a little bit.
Yeah, so it reminded me.
Mark just reminded me of thefact.
So, when I was pregnant in LA,so we're and I mentioned the
baby shower.
Well, the night before we hadthat baby shower, um, mark was a
manager for a post-productioncompany making movies for
(48:01):
Hallmark, and they shut down theentire department.
And and I was a an officemanager for a company that
managed farmer's markets, but Iwas intending to take time off.
So, all of a sudden, you know,the night before the night of
our baby shower, we find outthat, you know, we're in hot
water.
So February 2006 was the monthour first son was born, and that
(48:25):
month we started three smallbusinesses and that's where I
discovered that.
You know, I first learned aboutQuickBooks and I was like, oh,
I love this, this is amazing,and you know, just dove
headfirst in and I did, ofcourse, did all the training and
certifications, but I found Ihad such a love for that, and
(48:47):
I've always loved math, ofcourse.
But you know, it was just, itwas.
It's just an interestingjourney that you find yourself
on, but you know, it was just,it was.
It's just an interestingjourney that you find yourself
on and you know, I just wouldalways, and I always tell my
kids to like do something youlove.
You know, find your path.
Do something you love, helppeople make the world a better
place.
That's, that's all we can hopefor for our kids, right.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Exactly, exactly, no-transcript.
(49:39):
And I just kept pushing myselfand it is You've got to drive
yourself to achieve things.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yes, very definitely, and do hard things yes.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
And, like you said, Claire, I mean it's not Hubbard,
right, but I will don't youhave to say, though, we did
learn the ability to make thingsgo right, and you know, high
priority, we're going to get itdone.
We're going to get it done, andthat translates into other
things, right?
It's not necessarily I meanpeople in the military the same
way, right?
Speaker 2 (50:15):
True, yes, yeah, and I did.
And I think I've told thisstory before, but I did
originally kind of be like, well, at least I have a good work
ethic.
And then a friend of ours waslike, well, is that what you
attribute your your success to,or was it the catalyst of
leaving and having to start yourlife over again?
And that really gave me pausebecause I was like, hmm, you
know what?
You got a really good pointthere because I was not
(50:38):
accomplishing much of anything.
Busy work, really.
Uh, I mean, yes, I was in highexecutive positions but, um, you
know, at the end of the day,what do I have to show?
Did I help a person?
Uh, I don't know.
You know, you just go.
Really, did I really helpsomebody?
Now I can say very definitelyyes, in many, many ways I can.
(51:00):
I can say ways that I've, youknow, helped my kids or helped
people escape Scientologythrough the Aftermath Foundation
, you know, and it's incrediblyrewarding and something tangible
that you can go.
Yes, this is what Iaccomplished.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
Right, right.
And I did that with themortgage business.
I mean, I worked my way up andbecame the president of the
Nevada Mortgage Association.
All the state, Well for thewhole state.
But then I was even selected andappointed to the Mortgage
Advisory Council for the stateof Nevada and I chief being
(51:37):
chairman of that, and I believethat was all through
determination and pushing and mydesire to help.
Yes, because through thosepositions I then make contacts
with congressmen and senatorsand this type of thing, and
senators and this type of thing,and I even went before one of
their congressional committees,you know, to discuss the whole
(51:59):
mortgage industry.
And that is from my desire tohelp people.
Now that I'm not so involved inthe mortgage business, my
attention is now on helpingScientologists and
ex-Scientologists, you know.
Yes, completely.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Because I know.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
I have that ability.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, completely.
I want to ask a final questionbecause we're getting close on
time and this may take a littlebit of time.
I found out when I was talkingto Janice's daughter, erin,
taking her to the airport oneday.
I told her about the fact thather father purchased the free
winds and bought a ship and allthat, and she had no idea.
She was 28 years old and shegoes.
(52:39):
You're kidding me?
I said, yeah, didn't you knowwhat your mother?
No, I didn't know anything.
I said your mother was incharge of whole continents on
the planet in Scientology anddid lots of things at a very
young age.
You didn't know.
No, no.
And I said haven't you read herbooks?
No, I haven't read her books.
I said why she goes?
Because I think they're goingto be too sad.
So my question is what did youdiscuss with your children about
(53:03):
your time in Scientology andhow much do they really know
about your history in it?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yes, well, to answer from me, I've always kept it,
tried very hard to keep it ageappropriate as they grew older.
And so, for example, when myoldest son was seven, one day he
said, mom, when did your momdie?
And I was like, son, she's notdead.
And I explained the wholeconcept of high control
organizations and that she's notallowed to talk to us and
(53:39):
hopefully one day she'll wake upand be back in our lives.
But in the meantime we havewonderful people like Cece from
Cece's Comfort Cooking Channel,who is, for all intents and
purposes, the grandma that mykids know and love.
And I'm like, I don't know aboutyou, but I think she makes a
darn good grandma.
And they're like, oh yeah,she's amazing, like yeah, so
there you go, you know, andagain I've I've separated out my
own emotions versus what I'mkind of, you know, uh,
projecting onto them and justseparating that out.
(54:02):
But, um, but now that they'regetting older they're kind of
more in tune, like Mark and Ihave told the story about how
our oldest, in his English classlast year, was told to pick a
book of a survivor and he pickedMark's book to read and do a
report on.
And you know, you just go.
I don't ever want it to be mychildren's burden of the life
(54:25):
that I lived and where I camefrom, but at the same token, I
do want them to know who I amand who Mark is.
And you know, and and it wasfunny because our oldest son,
after he read the book, he waslike filled in a lot of gaps,
made a lot of sense, made, mademore of a picture.
(54:45):
I'm like, well, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
How about you, janice ?
Speaker 3 (54:49):
Well, when I asked Aaron why she hadn't read my
book, she says because I don'twant to cry.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (54:57):
But my kids grew up hearing stories.
I mean, our house was like ahalfway home for people crossing
.
You know, we were the aftermathbefore the aftermath.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Yes, very definitely.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
My kids heard all those kind of stories and we
never really got into it withthem, you know.
But I know my daughter.
She went to Celebrity Centerone day and they tried to do her
OCA and get her in on a courseand she's like no, thank you.
Oh my gosh, my grandmotherstarted all this.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Boom yeah, so don't, you can't pull any wool over my
eyes.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
We have like yeah, just a couple minutes.
We have four minutes left.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
I just wanted to let everyone know that at the end of
this show it's going toredirect to mark and mitch
brisker and maybe we'll just doanother another round because,
um, I, I don't know.
We could try and blow throughsome some questions real quick.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
If you want, mark, no I just thought you know, since
we only got a few minutes left,is I just want to remind
everybody that?
Yeah, claire, we reallyappreciate you doing this.
Um, I was going to ask haveyour, are your kids, have they
watched any of your videos onyoutube?
How about you?
Janice's john or a Aaronwatched any of our videos yet,
or are they pretty much stayingaway?
That's dad and mom stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
My kids have watched a little bit here and there and
we're like, eh, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
Well, we had Aaron on for one of our shows.
Yeah, we should love to doanother one.
But, yeah, let's do another oneof these.
This is great.
Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yes, absolutely here.
I'll pop up a few super chatshere real quick so we don't
leave anyone hanging.
Laura Estrada I work with andam an advocate for autistic kids
.
Throughout the horrible neglectstories Claire you rock had
shared, I often wondered howparents handle special needs in
the selfish cult, if at all.
Yeah, so that's a greatquestion.
And no, unfortunately they areneglected awfully.
(57:05):
I remember one kid in Englandand it was just not good because
Scientology treats them asdegraded beings, which
Demasterson verdict.
I thought it in poor taste, ifnot trying.
Yes, jason, I saw your email.
Thank you so much and thanksfor being here.
Let's see here.
We got two more minutes here.
Here we go.
G Nome, much love to you all.
If you have any bookrecommendations in this area,
(57:27):
would love to hear Awesome.
Yeah, janice, we'll bring thatto the next show.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
How about that?
Yeah, okay, okay, perfect.
We want to remind everybody tosubscribe to our channels too,
right, claire?
Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yes, very definitely Blown for Good.
And Our Scientology StoriesPeeling the Onion with Janice
Gillum Grady and Mark Fisher.
Do us a favor.
Hit that subscribe button, Hitthat bell notification button.
It helps with everything.
And thanks to everybody heretoday.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Selena button.
It helps with everything.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
And thanks to everybody here today.
Selena, Michelle, what else do?
Speaker 4 (57:58):
they need to do.
Janice rock, slam the likebutton.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
There you go, Selena Michelle.
My daughter has issues and hasdisconnected from the family.
It's hard.
My heart feels for you guys.
Love SPTV, hit the like button.
I'm so sorry, Selena Michelle,but yes, we very definitely feel
that.
Gary Jackson Moorhead in thehouse hey, good people, hey
Jackson, sending all the love.
Good to see you here.
Stephanie AFC, Claire Englishis, of course, the best.
(58:23):
There you go.
And then, last but not least,Dan Vestivo in the house.
Y'all are awe-inspiring.
Your motivation and drive aresomething we can all learn from
OSA excretes, poo aromas, Alwaysconsistent with theme and
discussion.
So anyway, we have one minuteleft.
It was awesome seeing you guys.
(58:44):
Thanks for the great idea, bothof you Always a fun chat and
I'm sorry we were having audioissues.
I know what to look for now.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
No, you're fine, you did fine.
It was fun.
There's a lot of fun and we haddefinitely do it again.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yes, very definitely, and maybe we can just tell
people hey, if there's morespecific things you'd like us to
target in, terms of ourparenting discussions comment in
the video um, and we will putit on the agenda.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Awesome, automatically going to switch
over.
Is that what's going to happen,or what I?
Speaker 2 (59:15):
think I have to end the stream and then it will
redirect.
Okay, bye for now.
Bye everybody.
Bye everybody.
Speaker 4 (59:23):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have hail Zinu Zinu is myhomeboy and BFG branded mouse
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content ona regular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book Blown for Good Behind
(59:45):
the Iron Curtain of Scientologyin hardback, kindle and audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast and you can get that on
Apple, spotify or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
(01:00:06):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.
Hi everybody, welcome to our channel.
Hi, this is Mark Fisher, withour Scientology Stories Peeling
the Onion, and we're doing asimulcast with Blown for Good's
channel, which is Mark Headleyand Claire Headley, and, of
course, my co-cast with Blownfor Good's channel, which is
Mark Hedley and Claire Hedley,and, of course, my co-host,
janice Gillum-Grady, is here aswell.
Hi everybody, welcome to thechannel.
Hi, so we're simultaneouslystreaming on both our channel
(00:37):
and Mark and Claire's channel,so you can watch us on either
one.
But if you haven't subscribedto our channels, please do so.
I'm sure.
Subscribe to Mark and Claire,subscribe to us, we'd really
appreciate it.
And how's everybody?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
doing today Good, it's Thursday, so things are
looking up.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
And it's after two.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It's Thursday after two, so that's a good thing, yay
, yeah, so hopefully we all hadour stats up for the week and
we're going to have a goodweekend.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Absolutely so.
What's going to happen?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I tuned my stats in just before I came in here.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Nice, can you guys hear me?
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yes we can hear you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
You're much crackling in my ear a little bit, Mark,
but now it's good.
Anyway, what we're going to dois we're doing a show here
talking about parenting afterScientology, but then it's going
to lead directly into Mark'sshow with Mitch Brisker, and so
you don't have to leave thechannel, it's just automatically
going to transfer you over soyou can watch both shows
(01:40):
together, and that's how we setit up to make it nice and smooth
for the viewers out there.
So, anyway, we wanted towelcome everybody here and we're
going to go ahead and getstarted.
I was going to ask Claire andJanice and Mark, I've never had
kids, unfortunately.
I never had kids after the SeaOrg.
But go ahead, claire and Janice, how many kids do you have and
(02:01):
what are their ages?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Sure, so, speaking for Mark and I, we have three
boys.
Uh, so in my case I have fourboys.
Um, you know, Mark.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I think it's Claire's mic that's crackling, Unless I
crackle too when I talk no, youdon't, it's Claire's mic.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, your mic is crackling, babe.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh, that's not fun.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Just switch over, Just switch it off and switch it
back over, but I'll talk whileClaire is fixing that.
Yeah, we have a 10-year-old, a15-year-old and a 17-year-old
and I think the crazy thing forme is seeing them at certain
milestone ages, like when Clairewas four, when her mom joined
(02:49):
the Sea Org, so when, when ourfirstborn son was four, you
think like, oh, how would it beif we just leave this guy with
some people and maybe see him anhour a day or maybe even once a
week?
And I can't even fathom, Ican't even fathom having a dog
(03:09):
that I see once a week, muchless a child.
So it's a, it's the wildest,it's, it is very um it.
It just it's one of thosethings that I can't wrap my head
around how my mom thought thatthat was a good idea or that was
(03:30):
even something that you coulddo.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Claire's back.
Can we hear you now, claire?
Are you there?
Claire?
No, she went out again.
Janice, how many kids do youhave?
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I have two.
I have a 32-year-old boy and a29-year-old girl and then I have
a three-and-a-half-year-oldgranddaughter, right.
But I agree with Marcus.
Like as my kids hit certainages, I was like, what were my
parents thinking?
And while my mother, you know,left three children on the Royal
(04:06):
Scotsman, on a ship in themiddle of the Mediterranean
while she was in America anddidn't see us, she saw us maybe
three or four times in fiveyears and my dad didn't see us
at all, from the age of 12 to 17.
And they were proud of us.
But it's's like my mother said,she petitioned to have us
(04:29):
return to her but that was, thatwas denied, but she didn't she,
she did not pursue it and say,hey, wait a minute, and she
thought we were in good hands.
So basically.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So, yeah, you all, you all basically can't imagine,
after having kids, you know,your parents leaving you in the
c organization.
Right, it just doesn't make anysense at all, did it?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
yeah no, it's literally it's literally
unthinkable that that what theydid, like to me, I just, I just
can't even it, wouldn't even, itwouldn't even be, it wouldn't.
I wouldn't want to say thatthere would be.
In no scenario Would I be okaywith that situation.
Like to just, I would just belike no, that's not.
(05:14):
Like, oh, they're going to go,and well, who are they going to
be with?
Where are they going to be?
When are they going to?
You know, it would be, it wouldbe so much that it would just
be like oh no, this isridiculous, this is, this is,
it's unthinkable yeah okay.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So, janice, I know you, you were pregnant with your
son john, when you left the seaorgan.
That's one of the reasons whyyou left.
Uh, mark and claire, and, andand when did you all decide that
you were going to have, start afamily and have children?
And and what was it like whenyou first, you know know, found
out you were pregnant and youwere going to have babies.
Same for you, janice.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, so I would answer to that.
Obviously, when we escaped, itwas like start your life over
again.
Mark jokes that we neverplanned to have children yet,
but of course you know we alwayswanted kids, and so Mark
escaped in the beginning ofJanuary 2005.
(06:08):
I followed three weeks afterthat and by I think it was May,
may or June I was pregnant andthat was just amazing.
You know, it was like wow, newbeginnings, right, mark?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
you know, it was like wow, new beginnings, right,
Mark?
Yeah, I mean, we, we, we hadour first kid like a year after
we had escaped.
So it was pretty much yeah, itwas pretty much about a year and
a few days that's how close itwas to when we had our first son
.
But yeah, we had our first son.
(06:51):
But uh, yeah, it really reallymade me change my whole concept
of scientology and how theytreat a family, because they're
they're always uh, it's allabout, um, the group and your
family and your second dynamicand your third dynamic.
In the end of the day, theydon't care about any of that,
like it's not even, it doesn'teven factor in to any
decision-making skills.
It's just like, oh no, the kidsneed to just be gotten away as
(07:13):
a distraction.
We just got to move them awayso we can get all this work done
.
And when you have kids, it'salmost like it's all about the
kids and everything else comessecond, comes after that, even
each other.
Like, the kids come first andthen we deal with us.
(07:33):
And in Scientology, the kidsare.
They might not even make thelist of things we're worried
about.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I know Totally.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
I mean that's yes, worried about, yeah, I know I
mean that's yes, on the on,whenever in the c org kids are
sort of like it's just a thingwe have to deal with, you know
well, parent well.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
people who did not have kids, you could tell they
had an animosity towards thosedid have kids because they got
that extra hour every day to gosee their kids, or if you're.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I was going to say that is exactly what I witnessed
too.
You'd see, the other Sea Orgmembers or the other staff would
be like you'd say oh, where'sBob?
Oh, they're off with their kid,you know they're at family time
for an hour and they're beingwith their kid, you know they're
at family time for an hour andthey're being, you know,
criticized and berated forbasically taking an hour off in
(08:31):
the middle of the day yeah, oron family day, they all got to
take their kids for the wholeday and if you didn't have kids,
you didn't get the day off, youknow mark somebody's saying in
the chat your your volume's alittle low on your microphone.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Is there a way you can turn it up?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
There you go.
Oh, that's much better.
Sorry about that.
Well, let me ask you both aquestion Claire and Janice and
Mark.
So when you get out obviouslyJanice was pregnant when she got
out, and then Mark and Claire,you were just starting your life
outside of Scientology howscary was it financially to go?
I've got a kid coming right nowand I still have to set up my
(09:08):
career.
I mean, what was that like?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, big adventure.
You just take it a day at atime, right, I know I remember
that.
So we were in Kansas City andMark had moved back to LA at the
time that I and you know.
So we were in Kansas City andMark had moved back to LA at the
time that I and you know, so wewere kind of in transition.
He'd gotten this job offer andit was too good to pass up.
You know, when you've been, whenyou're starting your life over
(09:34):
from scratch, it's, it's a hugeundertaking.
Like everything is just, how dowe manage this, how do we do
this?
And then on top of that yes,you're right, factor in
pregnancy insurance.
You don't know how any of thatworks, hadn't been to a doctor
and like I don't know other than, like you know, mandatory
(09:56):
things.
And it's funny because actuallyby the time I moved to LA to re
, you know, we settled and wehad an apartment and kind of had
things situated.
I was um five months pregnantalready by the first time I went
to see the doctor and thedoctor was like, so were you
planning to come at all?
Or like what's the deal?
(10:17):
I'm like yeah, yeah, no, no,we're, we're just I don't know
how this works.
I don't have anyone to talk tothat's ever had kids, like you
know.
Oh my gosh.
And they're.
And she's like, well, it'salready time for your, your
ultrasound and we're gonna findout if it's a boy or a girl,
where we were like, wow okay andjanice.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You got you both mentioned, claire and janice.
They don't teach you thisbiology when you were growing up
in Scientology as a kid, right?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
No.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
No anatomy classes or anything.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Reading, writing and arithmetic, no sex education, no
anatomy class, none of that butyou did learn the 2D rules.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
The 2D rules you learned right.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The 2D rules and the way to happiness Don't be
promiscuous.
That's about it.
That sums it up right there,that's your education.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well, when we got married, Paul actually gave me a
book.
It's also a sex education typebook, so I would have some
understanding.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Paul bought you a sex education book.
Paul bought you a sex educationbook.
I think the only book we hadwas what to expect when, when
expecting?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think that was the book when you're expecting.
That was your mic is cracklingfull-time.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Claire full-time.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I don't know what to do then.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
You're not on your sure, mike.
You're on your laptop, mike, orsomething else, or computer,
mike.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Mark.
So, mic Mark, what about you asfar as financially?
And all that when you're firststarting out, when Claire's
pregnant?
What was that like for you asthe father?
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Well, I was lucky to pretty much start working as
soon as I left, like I, withinwithin a day or two I was making
$50 an hour after leaving,after making $46 a week for 120
hour week.
Um, I went straight in to uhfixing computers and and just
(12:18):
had a full-time job and um, andthen basically, when we uh, we
were in Kansas City for a fewmonths, we had like a
two-bedroom apartment which wegot just in case my dad needed
to move.
He was going through.
Very shortly after we got out,him and his wife ended up
(12:41):
getting a divorce and sellingtheir house and doing that, and
so we got an apartment with anextra bedroom so that, if he
needed to, he could stay with us.
And then we ended up moving toLos Angeles within a few months
and that is, we were probablythere for about six months
(13:02):
before our first kid was born.
But, um, I had a full-time jobin Los Angeles at a
post-production company for awhile and then I also worked for
uh like a telecom, a telecomapt, uh, uh, well, it was really
a company that was making someapps for phones when they were
still flip phones.
There was no, I don't eventhink there was an iPhone, yet
(13:23):
when, when they were makingthese, these uh things that
would read your text messages oremails for you and um, so we,
we, I, I, luckily, um was ableto get work right away, and then
Claire was also, um, had afull-time job, so, um, we were
actually doing pretty good.
We didn't think we did muchbetter than we thought we would,
(13:46):
having no high school education, not having a resume of pretty
much anything, and so we kind oflucked out in that department
and it wasn't that big of a deal.
Definitely sort of like, uh, wegot to make a ton of money
because we're going to have akid, and so we that's kind of
(14:08):
how we planned it.
And then it just, you know, itwas definitely uh, I don't want
to say it was yeah, I guess itwas stressful, just that.
Oh, what are we going to do?
What are, how are we going to?
You know, how are we going todo this?
And we don't have a goodtemplate to follow from our
(14:30):
mothers.
So it was sort of like, yeah,this is not.
I mean, we had a low bar set byby my mom and Claire's mom, so
it was sort of anything thatClaire did would be better than
either of them, and the factthat there was a dad involved
was a bonus.
So it was sort of like okay,great, I mean my dad was around,
but him and my mom split up andhe didn't want to make any
(14:53):
trouble because he knew becausehe wasn't a Scientologist, then
he'd get cut right off.
Played it safe when you knowthings.
My mom wanted us to doScientology stuff or you know,
do that follow along with thatwhole you know culture.
My dad was just like I don'twant to make trouble because
(15:14):
otherwise I'll never talk again.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And Janice.
Janice, you and Paul had atotally different experience,
didn't you?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Financially and everything.
When you got out out right, whydon't you tell that story?
Well, we left and we went to mybrother, who had left eight
years before, and, um, I was oneand a half months pregnant, but
I thought I was further along.
So my sister-in-law was likewell, we've got to get you in
for a doctor's checkup, and I'mlike a doctor anyway, how many
months when you went for yourfirst appointment oh no, it was
well.
(15:53):
Here's the story that it wasjust one and a half months, but
I thought I was further along.
Oh, because that I go to thedoctor and he they lived up in
upper ohio, which was a smalllittle place, and a friend of
theirs was the doctor down theroad and he had a place in santa
paula.
So I went down to see him, hedid a blood test and so forth,
(16:15):
and he comes back with the bloodtest and he says, um, your
child might be be retarded, andso we want to do further testing
.
And they couldn't get, so theywanted to put me in for an
amniothin cesis yeah and it was,and it would take two weeks to
get the result.
Boy did that, screw with my headfor two weeks just wondering
(16:41):
what kind of child was I goingto have?
And I have no money and what.
You know what am I going tohave and I have no money and
what am I going to do?
So they did the amnioticincisus and that's when they
found out that my dates were offand that I was going to have a
boy and everything was fine.
But that two weeks was purehell and I was like I'm not
(17:02):
coming back to doctors.
That was my one and only realexperience with a doctor.
So anyway, that was my start ofhaving a perfectly healthy son.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
How about financially , though?
How about financially?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Financially we had very little money.
You know, we had some bonusmoney we'd saved up, but Paul
had been on the RPF for a whileand so he had used that when he
tried to escape.
At one point He'd used up someof that on a hotel.
So I contacted MarshallGoldblatt, who is a wealthy
(17:45):
Scientologist, and I toldMarshall I called some other
Scientology friends and theywere like sorry, can't help you,
you're blowing.
And so I called Marshall and Isaid I don't want money, I'll do
something in exchange.
And it's still there.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Yeah, I thought it was Claire, but now it's
happening even though she's noton, so I think it might be
something with stream yard.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, I don't hear you either.
I don't hear any buzzing at all, so yeah anyway.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
so I'll contact marshall and I had those asi
prints that they were sellingfor like $3,000 or something
ridiculous.
Anyway, I called Marshall andhe offered to buy them from me
and I arranged for my dad todrop them off and he wired me
several thousand dollars.
So I was like, oh, what arelief.
(18:41):
You know, because now I atleast have three grand.
And then I started babysitting.
Can you imagine coming out ofthe sea and babysitting?
I was so militant to thesechildren.
I was like, okay, let's dosomething fun.
We're going to make cookies.
(19:03):
But everything had to beperfect, condition you couldn't
spill.
You know, I must have justdriven those kids nuts
babysitting them, trying to makeperfect cookies with no
spilling.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You know, yeah, and Mark and Claire, our living
situation was we got atwo-bedroom apartment in Vegas.
Paul and Janice were in onebedroom, terry and Fernando were
in the other bedroom and Islept on the pullout couch while
Janice was pregnant because wehad no jobs.
We were just getting started.
We didn't even know what amortgage was getting into the
mortgage business and it wascommission only.
(19:39):
So it was like how are yougoing to make any money to make
ends meet?
That was what was so crazy.
And Janice, I remember Paul, hepinched every penny right.
He made sure that every pennywent somewhere positive.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
So this guy couldn't waste money.
I came to Vegas first and hestayed in Ojai helping my
brother do some constructionwork, to finish a job there, so
he could make some money andthen join us in Vegas while we
were setting up the mortgagecompany.
Yeah, we didn't know what amortgage was, and here we were
(20:15):
opening up a mortgage companyWow.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I think that's unanimously something.
No Sea Org member knows what amortgage is right.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Let me ask you a general question now.
Okay, having been inScientology and then getting out
, okay, what are some of thethings like did you use anything
that you learned in Scientologyin terms of raising your kids
as parents?
Do you know what I mean Interms of anything that you
learned?
Like, how did you even did theyeven know that you were in
(20:48):
Scientology before?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, just a general questionlike that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well for me.
I found a midwife and I did theBradley method and I went to
different classes on that andthen.
But I told the midwife it hadto be a silent birth but and I
remember during the birthhearing her crunching on potato
chips.
Can you stop?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
John's gonna get.
John's gonna get keyed in everytime he hears potato chips the
rest of his life.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
He's going to be watching a football game and
someone's going to crunch aLay's chip or something he's
going to be like.
Ah.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I mean, the whole room was silent, except this
crunch.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
She's telling me it's okay, just let it happen, you
know, and she had John on thefloor in the living room of our
apartment.
I was upstairs At that point.
Kenny Lipton had moved to town,and so we waited upstairs in
his apartment, upstairs, whileJanice was having the baby on
the floor with the midwife.
Wow, couldn't afford a hospital.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
No, the midwife cost $500 from start to finish.
I had no insurance and she waslike, if there's any problems, I
have a van outside and I havean oxygen tank and I know where
the closest hospital is and I'mlike there won't be any problems
.
Oh my God, Three hours later,pushing every vein in my face,
(22:24):
it probably burst.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
How about you, claire ?
What was your?
What was your birth like whenyou had your first son?
Did you guys go to the hospitalor what'd you do?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
We did.
Yeah, it was funny.
A month before we had our son,somebody that we knew was like
oh, we should do a baby shower.
And I was like what's a babyshower?
What do you mean?
What's that about?
And she was like, oh, uh, weshould do a baby shower.
And I was like what's a babyshower?
What do you mean, what's thatabout?
And she was like you don't knowwhat a baby shower is I'm like
Nope, Anyway.
Um, but yeah, no, we we had ourson at the hospital, Um, and it
(22:58):
was a very long drawn out event,right, Honey, like 48 hours, Um
, I think, from start to finish.
It was because I was inducedthe first time.
I was kind of in retrospect, Iwas, you know, again I had, I
just had no experience, noreference.
So the doctor just kind of said, Well, he's only gonna get
(23:20):
bigger.
So what do you want to do?
I'm like I guess I'm gonna tohave the baby.
Is that the right answer here.
Okay, so I was induced thefirst time, really tough, really
long and and.
And it was amazing to me howthe different nurses kind of
(23:41):
like.
Really, there was this oneparticular nurse that completely
freaked Mark and I out Like shecame in.
She's like particular nursethat completely freaked Mark and
I out Like she came in.
She's like your oxygen'sdropping, the baby's oxygen is
dropping.
We need to get you on oxygenright now.
He's got the umbilical cordwrapped around his neck and
we're like what, what's going on?
Anyway, then the next nurse camein who was like you know, had
(24:01):
been around forever, obviously,and she was like ripped the
oxygen off of me.
She was like that's a bunch ofnonsense, everything's fine,
you're fine, everything's goingto be okay.
But yeah, so everything wasokay.
It was, you know, just wow,like what an experience.
And I think you know,unfortunately, you know we were.
So we were delivering my son inBurbank, california, that's
(24:26):
where we lived at the time andmy parents lived in La Crescenta
, and so after our son was born,or shortly after Mark, you
should tell the story about whenyou called my mom shortly after
.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Mark, you should tell the story about when you called
my mom.
Yeah, I, um, I basically calledclaire's mom on the phone and I
said hey, just want to makesure you know claire had the
baby.
This is how much she weighed.
Everything's good, she'shealthy, um and fine.
The baby's healthy and fine.
Click, she literally just hungup.
Because she was disconnectedfrom Claire, right, yeah,
because we were both.
In January of 2005, right whenwe escaped, we were declared
(25:10):
suppressives and they were alltold, but we weren't.
So for months we were sort ofplaying along with them like
okay, yeah, well, what do youneed us to do?
Were sort of playing along withthem like, okay, yeah, well,
what do you need us to do?
We'll, we'll see if we canfigure something out.
You know, just so we wouldn'tcause them any trouble and they
wouldn't cause us any trouble.
And, um, and Claire was talkingwith her mother and we were
(25:31):
talking to people, we but wedidn't know that they'd already
been told that we were declaredSPS and not to talk to us.
And then when we finally endedup going back to Los Angeles in
April of 2005, I ended up goingback to get whatever stuff that
we still had.
They packed it up in a U-Hauland we met them like at a
(25:52):
rendezvous point to pick up thetruck with all the stuff.
And when I went to that, theygave me the declares the
suppressive person declares.
It's actually an issue thatsays you know, mark Headley is
declared a suppressive person.
Or it says at the topsuppressive person, declare.
I think that's actually what itsays at the top, and they were
(26:14):
dated January and I was sort oflike you guys have been messing
with us and kind of putting on ashow for four months and it was
like, yeah, this is nonsense.
And so then when I called herthe next time, we probably
hadn't talked to them in a yearor more by the time we had our
(26:35):
first child and it was like,yeah, they're not talking.
Uh, they're not, they're notpicking, they're not talking on
the phone to us.
That's it, it's done.
And so the three boys, ourthree boys, have never met, um,
claire's, any of Claire's familyever.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
My boy, I was going to ask how how it has
disconnected disconnectedaffected your children that were
now teenagers and older andsame with you, janice, cause
your father.
Father was disconnected withfrom you for a while too.
How has that affected them?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
yeah, I'll go first.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
My my answer to that is your mic is it's crackles so
bad claire that we literallycannot hear you I don't hear
anything.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Is it crack crackling ?
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, it's deaf On my end it's.
I can't hear you.
I can only hear crackling.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
OK.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Every time you talk, it crackles Go ahead Dennis.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Well, what happened with me was my dad.
When we first moved to Vegas hecame out and visited us and a
private investigator reportedthat dad was in vegas seeing us.
So dad got pulled in by officeof special affairs for two years
of sick checking so he didn'tsee the kids.
(27:53):
And then and he before beforewe moved to vegas he did see my
brother's kids a few times.
So then what he did was anon-Scientologist she had been a
Scientologist but she wasn't onanyone's lines.
She worked it out for Dad to goto a hotel at Disneyland and we
(28:13):
would go to Disneyland with thekids my brother and his kids and
me and mine, the kids, mybrother and his kids and me and
mine and she would then take allfour of his grandchildren over
to another hotel to visit himand that way he didn't have to
deal with us SPs but he got tomeet and spend some time with
his grandkids and I think Aaronwas probably about four years
(28:38):
old at that time, so John wasseven, richard was eight, you
know Yvonne was probably about12.
So that's how we did it, so thathe could get to see them.
And I always sent himphotographs and I did a yearly
calendar with pictures on it andwould send that to him so he
could kind of watch them grow.
(28:59):
Would send that to him so hecould kind of watch them grow.
And doing that actually helped,because one day he suddenly
called me on my birthday to wishme happy birthday and I'm like
how did you remember my birthday?
Well, I have your calendar herein front of me, you know.
So that helped open up thatcommunication line with him was
(29:21):
by just always sending letterswith photographs in the calendar
.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Wow, yeah, janice has been a big proponent of that.
If your family's disconnectedfrom you, still send them cards
and letters and birthday photosand stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
You'd never know when they're going to reach out.
You know, right, yeah, that's agood point.
I never even thought about that.
That, um, you know, we, we seeum, my sister's, um friends of
my sister, cause my sister alsoum stopped talking uh with us as
well and now she has been uhkicked out of the Sea Org and
she lives in Clearwater, and sowe see people that are her
(30:04):
friends on Facebook.
There's kind of like there'ssome people that are kind of
under the radar but they'refriends with Scientologists and
they're friends with SPs andthey sort of kind of live in
this gray area.
So some, every once in a while,people will send us stuff and
like, oh, your sister had a kid,or your sister moved to Florida
, or your you know whatever.
So every once in a while we'llsee stuff because we're blocked,
(30:27):
so we can't.
If we go on to social media, wethat we just don't even see
that they have a profile becausethey've blocked us.
So it is what it is.
Every once in a while we'll seeyou know something?
Okay, claire, let's hear it.
Let's hear.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Testing, testing.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Well, now you're muted, so that's not going to
work at all.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I can't hear her.
Oh, you did, I heard her.
Oh my goodness, claire, saysomething.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Testing one, two, three.
Testing one, two, three.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
There you go.
I can hear her.
She's just a little low if youturn the volume up.
If not, just get close to themicrophone either way.
But yeah, no, you're in.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Okay, awesome.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Perfect, Now let's get to you now about what I
asked about how hasdisconnection, you know,
affected your children, you knownot being able to see their
grandparents, and things likethat.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
What you know not being able to see their
grandparents, and things likethat.
What do they even think aboutthat, you know?
Yes, so I would say that, um,after our second son was born, I
kind of had a existentialcrisis, as it were, in that, um,
I I lost my dad to throughdisconnection when I was three
years old and I completelyblamed myself.
So when I had kids of my own,my biggest concern was that they
(31:44):
would think it was their fault,as I thought it was my fault
when I was three years old, andso when my second son was like a
few months old, it reallystarted to hit me like what am I
going to tell my kids when theyrealize I have no grandparents?
and, oh my gosh, a lot ofemotions were bubbling at the
surface.
So so, my, my decision was tocall Dr Laura and say Dr Laura
(32:09):
Schlesinger, you know, she'safamily therapist in California.
She had a radio show, and so I,I this was, I think, 2009 by
now.
And so Scientology was still solitigious that I, you know, we
weren't really.
It was like, eh, don't touchthat with a 10 foot pole.
(32:31):
So for the from thisperspective of calling a radio
show, I figured out how to coucheverything in such a way as to
never mention the wordScientology.
I figured out how to coucheverything in such a way as to
never mention the wordScientology, and so I called the
first time I'd spoke withKimberly, the screener, I
explained the whole story andand she was like Okay, okay,
you're, you're in line.
And unfortunately, that timethe show ended before I got on,
(32:54):
and then another.
It took me another four monthsto get up the guts to call back
do it again.
And good old Kimberly rememberedme and bumped me to the front
of the line.
I was like oh my God.
And of course, the moment I goton with Dr Laura, the
floodgates opened and I was justbawling right now.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
But so I asked her.
I'm like what do I tell my kids?
(33:15):
I explained the wholecircumstance.
Like, my husband and I wereboth born into this organization
and you know whatever.
I explained it all in terms thatnever used the word Scientology
, and Dr Laura was like I knowexactly what you're talking
about.
This is an organization thatrepresents itself as being about
love, and it's not.
(33:36):
They shun you, it's leveragecontrol, and the best thing you
can do with your kids is always,only ever, tell them the truth,
and that way you know that theywill never go down that path
and it was.
It sounds ridiculously simple,but it was just such solid
advice and it really helped megain perspective that actually
(33:58):
the emotions I was feeling wasbecause of my relationship with
my parents and my mom and mystepdad and my dad that I lost
when I was three to Scientology,and so that was my emotions.
Unfortunately, I also came toterms with the fact that my
family, by their choices, havemade themselves strangers to my
(34:20):
children, so therefore it meansnothing to my children.
They don't know who they areand therefore you know I'm not
going to insert that loss onthem.
It has to do with me, not mychildren, and what I can do as a
mom is to surround my kids withunconditional love and teach
them what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, it's almost like if the parents, if the
grandparents, had died beforethe kids were even born.
They don't even know.
Both of my mother's parentswere dead when the year I I was
born.
I never knew them, so you haveno emotional attachment to them,
janice.
How about you?
How what you know?
What about you?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
yeah, well.
Yeah, well my mother passedaway years before I even left
the field, so my kids didn'thave a grandmother on my side of
the family, but Kimma Douglastook on that position as a
grandmother for them and MikeDouglas took on as a grandfather
(35:16):
.
She was called Grand Kimma andyou know it was just the kim in
there, but her grandma yeah umyeah, but she took on that job
and they just loved her like agrandmother and she'd they'd go
visit her or would all go visither.
So they had that substitute.
It was good yeah, that's nice.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I was gonna say.
You know, we had a.
We had a discussion withApostate Alex and Janice's
daughter Erin, and one of theconcepts that my dad pointed out
to me after I left Scientologywas the concept of love is not
present in Scientology.
You know, we talk aboutaffinity and ARC.
It's not the same as love,right, and it's completely
(35:58):
missing, and I totally agreewith that.
You know what I mean.
I'd like to get your feelingson that, that's not my dog.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Oh, is that janice it's, I gotta mute myself, but I
don't see where to mute myselfI can mute you, janice, go ahead
, I ahead, I got it there we goOkay, go ahead, claire.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, it is very strange how love has been
removed from the terminology ofScientology and its affinity and
its place, and in fact, in theTED Talk that I drafted, that I
did on the Blown for Goodchannel I, I talk about that.
That unconditional love doesnot exist in scientology.
(36:42):
The love from your parents isentirely dependent and
completely on your cooperationand participation in scientology
.
In the moment you cease that,that you're out, you're on your
own.
See, you wouldn't want to be.
Uh, you know um, and uh yeah.
(37:03):
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Audio challenges today.
Huh, you, you, you said it, notme.
Um, yeah, no, I, I.
I think that, um, I thinkthat's a pretty accurate
statement.
They really don't value family.
They don't value there's.
No, it's really just, I think,what do they call it?
(37:26):
They call it mis-emotion.
If you have apathy, or if youhave, you know great, if you
love somebody.
It's just like.
That's just kind of like youknow you don't need to.
Emotions are sort of like addedand inapplicable, Like we don't
, we don't need any of that.
That doesn't, that doesn'tforward our cause at all.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
How about you, Janice , Can we?
Is your dog done?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
No, she says, he's still gone.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I was going to say the other okay, I was going to
say, though, the other thing iscompassion.
Compassion is not inScientology, compassion for
other people and empathy.
Good point, yes, yes, very much.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
So.
Yeah, no, in fact, if you, ifyou had empathy or compassion,
you were a bad person and not,uh, you know anyway.
Oh, janice is good, now, herewe go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Go ahead Janice, love , love, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Yeah, it is missing.
You know you've got the ARC.
Is that really the same?
No, no, it's not.
So yeah, you pretty muchcovered what I would have said.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Well, and Janice Hubbard really didn't have any.
He never showed any real lovetowards his family or anything,
did he?
I mean in terms of the way thatyou and Claire probably showed
towards your children?
Speaker 3 (38:48):
No, he definitely did not, you know.
I mean, he rarely saw his kidsand it took the household unit
saying let's invite the wholefamily to dinner every night,
you know, when we were on theship and then the kids started
eating with him but it startedaffecting their jobs because if
(39:10):
he was still working, mary Sueand the kids would be waiting.
Well, mary Sue would keepworking, but the kids would be
sitting around waiting, you know.
So he didn't kind of go out ofhis way for the kids at all.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
And I felt sorry, to be honest with you, with his
kids.
I felt sorry for them, Suzetteand Arthur, because Hubbard had
no real relationship with themand yet he's supposed to be the
paragon of the second dynamicand you know the person, the
ultimate authority.
But his kids had problems inScientology.
(39:43):
They had problems.
We had to deal with them.
When I worked for Miscavige,arthur, hubbard was sent to the
RPF out at Happy Valley and wehad to deal with him while he
was out there and I feltcompletely out of place.
You know, just crazy stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Arthur had a wife and a stepson and the Guardian's
office didn't like that.
Her father was a politician inFrance and they forced him to
divorce her Because they didn'twant that political connection
through France.
You know that's terrible.
(40:19):
They don't have that right yeah, yeah, exactly, all right.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I wanted to ask you another question on a different
angle of parenting.
How about who's that?
Is that janice's dog?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
yeah, I think the bug , I think the bug man is here.
That's okay, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Tell me if my audio sounds better now.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Mark, just bypassed me yeah, much better, yes, sorry
.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I had a Zoom call and I forgot.
He was like no, check.
And I'm like I checked, Ichecked, and he's like no, you
have to check over here.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Anyway, he just fixed it, so sorry about that yeah,
he just fixed it, so sorry okay,one of the jobs as a parent is
educating, or making sure thatyour kids get educated and learn
right.
I mean, your parents obviouslydidn't do that because they were
gone right, but what, what?
What did you learn?
Or, as a parent, what didn'tyou know about teaching or
(41:17):
getting your kids educated?
You know through all that.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh, my goodness, Speaking for myself.
So my family moved to the USwhen I was 13 years old and
never put me back in school.
So you have to factor in thosetwo elements in my case, number
one I never went to school.
And number two, I never went toschool in the US, never went to
(41:43):
school.
And number two, I never went toschool in the U?
S.
And so I for a while, when Ifirst moved to the U?
S, I was literally doinghomeschool.
I I do the quotation marksbecause what that meant is I
would go to the library andstudy about Ferdinand Magellan
and Christopher Columbus, andyou know like I went from
English curriculum to American,which is vastly different,
(42:06):
completely different worldsapart and with no supervision.
So when it came to my kids, Iwas like, oh no, education is
not, is not optional 100%.
You know, um, and, and it's,it's.
It's challenging, especiallynow that they're teenagers, like
you know.
I don't know that we'renecessarily the best yardsticks
(42:29):
to be enforcing that on our kids.
Like our kids are smart, sothey'll be like well, you don't
have a high school diploma, sowhy do I need one?
And we're like, yeah, no,that's not how this works.
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,nope.
Not optional.
You are going to graduate overmy dead body.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Well, I always had Paul do the homework with the
kids.
Yeah, because he at least wentto college, where the last
public school I did was Ifinished grade six and I did one
or two months of seventh gradeand that was it.
So I didn't even go to highschool, or two months of junior
(43:08):
high, if it starts at seventhgrade.
So, yeah, I didn't even botherwith the homework.
I'm like Paul, you do that.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, I was going to say both of you.
Despite the fact that youdidn't get a high school
education or whatever, both ofyou have learned by the seat of
your pants and become successfulin the fields that you're in.
Janice is a mortgage in themortgage industry and Claire you
in the finance and accountingindustry, as well as other
things.
I mean, it's pretty amazing,isn't it, Don't you think that
(43:39):
you guys I think it was yourdetermination, I don't know what
else, what do you think, whatdo you equate it with, and why
you were so successful despitethe fact that you didn't have a
high school education?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
You go ahead, Janice.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Determination, I mean , and belief in yourself.
I remember you know I workedwith you, mark and Paul, and
Terry and Fernando, and we setup a mortgage company and so
forth, and then, as time went on, you know, terry got into being
a realtor and then Paul and Iwere the ones with the mortgage
company still, and I got tiredof being with Paul 24 hours,
(44:15):
working with him and living withhim.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
You did go out on your own too.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
That's nice, that's awesome, yeah, no, Claire and I
had a um, we had pretty muchfull-time jobs, so we were, you
know, we were doing our ownthing for a lot of time.
And then, you know, when shestarted working for my company
and I started doing stuff withher and then so it kind of
worked out good for us that way.
(44:49):
But Claire is, I mean.
I mean I would be a mess on theground without all the stuff
that Claire does.
She really takes care ofbusiness for me on a lot of
stuff that I wouldn't be able todo.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Sometimes that bites me in the butt when he's like,
come on now, you can do this Ximpossible task.
There's nothing you can't do.
I'm like, wait a minute, comeon now.
Yeah, I know.
I would say that one thing Idid take away and I don't
attribute this to Hubbard, notbecause he's not the source of
(45:23):
it he didn't create a dictionary, for example but I would say
that I did learn that I couldstudy anything and learn it, no
matter what it is, and so I hadno problem getting a California
realtor license when we were inCalifornia and had no problem
just diving into any field thatI set my heart to, and obviously
(45:47):
it's important to findsomething that you love doing.
But if you're willing to divein and really work hard, there's
really nothing you can'taccomplish.
Is my personal view, and and um, you know it's.
It does take persistence andlong hours and willing to, you
(46:07):
know, do whatever it takes, butyou can do it.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah, yeah, and Mark, mark, you're the same too, mark
, because you started yourbusiness from nothing.
I mean, how did you learn aboutall the audio stuff and all
this?
I mean, didn't you just learnit yourself, right?
Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yeah, for the most part I sort of dabbled in that
when I was working at Golden AirProductions.
Over the many, over the 15years I was there, I was either
overseeing audio visual systemsor I was in charge of film
production or video productionor manufacturing, so I sort of
had a very wide-rangingknowledge base of audiovisual
(46:44):
stuff.
And so when I left, I actuallywent and worked at a production
company that made movies likeMovies of of the week and TV
shows, uh, in theirpost-production department.
And then, um, and when thatended, um, they actually just
closed down the whole uh sort ofpost-production uh department
that I worked in.
(47:04):
But, um, after they did that,um, I was sort of like I need to
start my own thing so that Idon't have a job hanging over me
that Scientology, can you know,get me fired from.
So the only person who's notgoing to fire me is me, so I'm
going to have to work for me.
That's pretty much how thatended up, and the same thing for
(47:26):
Claire.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, you reminded me of another story that relates
to becoming a parent afterScientology.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
I'm going to duck out because I got to get ready for
my five at my five o'clock showwith Mitch so thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Thanks, honey See you in a little bit.
Yeah, so it reminded me.
Mark just reminded me of thefact.
So, when I was pregnant in LA,so we're and I mentioned the
baby shower.
Well, the night before we hadthat baby shower, um, mark was a
manager for a post-productioncompany making movies for
(48:01):
Hallmark, and they shut down theentire department.
And and I was a an officemanager for a company that
managed farmer's markets, but Iwas intending to take time off.
So, all of a sudden, you know,the night before the night of
our baby shower, we find outthat, you know, we're in hot
water.
So February 2006 was the monthour first son was born, and that
(48:25):
month we started three smallbusinesses and that's where I
discovered that.
You know, I first learned aboutQuickBooks and I was like, oh,
I love this, this is amazing,and you know, just dove
headfirst in and I did, ofcourse, did all the training and
certifications, but I found Ihad such a love for that, and
(48:47):
I've always loved math, ofcourse.
But you know, it was just, itwas.
It's just an interestingjourney that you find yourself
on, but you know, it was just,it was.
It's just an interestingjourney that you find yourself
on and you know, I just wouldalways, and I always tell my
kids to like do something youlove.
You know, find your path.
Do something you love, helppeople make the world a better
place.
That's, that's all we can hopefor for our kids, right.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Exactly, exactly, no-transcript.
(49:39):
And I just kept pushing myselfand it is You've got to drive
yourself to achieve things.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yes, very definitely, and do hard things yes.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
And, like you said, Claire, I mean it's not Hubbard,
right, but I will don't youhave to say, though, we did
learn the ability to make thingsgo right, and you know, high
priority, we're going to get itdone.
We're going to get it done, andthat translates into other
things, right?
It's not necessarily I meanpeople in the military the same
way, right?
Speaker 2 (50:15):
True, yes, yeah, and I did.
And I think I've told thisstory before, but I did
originally kind of be like, well, at least I have a good work
ethic.
And then a friend of ours waslike, well, is that what you
attribute your your success to,or was it the catalyst of
leaving and having to start yourlife over again?
And that really gave me pausebecause I was like, hmm, you
know what?
You got a really good pointthere because I was not
(50:38):
accomplishing much of anything.
Busy work, really.
Uh, I mean, yes, I was in highexecutive positions but, um, you
know, at the end of the day,what do I have to show?
Did I help a person?
Uh, I don't know.
You know, you just go.
Really, did I really helpsomebody?
Now I can say very definitelyyes, in many, many ways I can.
(51:00):
I can say ways that I've, youknow, helped my kids or helped
people escape Scientologythrough the Aftermath Foundation
, you know, and it's incrediblyrewarding and something tangible
that you can go.
Yes, this is what Iaccomplished.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
Right, right.
And I did that with themortgage business.
I mean, I worked my way up andbecame the president of the
Nevada Mortgage Association.
All the state, Well for thewhole state.
But then I was even selected andappointed to the Mortgage
Advisory Council for the stateof Nevada and I chief being
(51:37):
chairman of that, and I believethat was all through
determination and pushing and mydesire to help.
Yes, because through thosepositions I then make contacts
with congressmen and senatorsand this type of thing, and
senators and this type of thing,and I even went before one of
their congressional committees,you know, to discuss the whole
(51:59):
mortgage industry.
And that is from my desire tohelp people.
Now that I'm not so involved inthe mortgage business, my
attention is now on helpingScientologists and
ex-Scientologists, you know.
Yes, completely.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Because I know.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
I have that ability.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, completely.
I want to ask a final questionbecause we're getting close on
time and this may take a littlebit of time.
I found out when I was talkingto Janice's daughter, erin,
taking her to the airport oneday.
I told her about the fact thather father purchased the free
winds and bought a ship and allthat, and she had no idea.
She was 28 years old and shegoes.
(52:39):
You're kidding me?
I said, yeah, didn't you knowwhat your mother?
No, I didn't know anything.
I said your mother was incharge of whole continents on
the planet in Scientology anddid lots of things at a very
young age.
You didn't know.
No, no.
And I said haven't you read herbooks?
No, I haven't read her books.
I said why she goes?
Because I think they're goingto be too sad.
So my question is what did youdiscuss with your children about
(53:03):
your time in Scientology andhow much do they really know
about your history in it?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yes, well, to answer from me, I've always kept it,
tried very hard to keep it ageappropriate as they grew older.
And so, for example, when myoldest son was seven, one day he
said, mom, when did your momdie?
And I was like, son, she's notdead.
And I explained the wholeconcept of high control
organizations and that she's notallowed to talk to us and
(53:39):
hopefully one day she'll wake upand be back in our lives.
But in the meantime we havewonderful people like Cece from
Cece's Comfort Cooking Channel,who is, for all intents and
purposes, the grandma that mykids know and love.
And I'm like, I don't know aboutyou, but I think she makes a
darn good grandma.
And they're like, oh yeah,she's amazing, like yeah, so
there you go, you know, andagain I've I've separated out my
own emotions versus what I'mkind of, you know, uh,
projecting onto them and justseparating that out.
(54:02):
But, um, but now that they'regetting older they're kind of
more in tune, like Mark and Ihave told the story about how
our oldest, in his English classlast year, was told to pick a
book of a survivor and he pickedMark's book to read and do a
report on.
And you know, you just go.
I don't ever want it to be mychildren's burden of the life
(54:25):
that I lived and where I camefrom, but at the same token, I
do want them to know who I amand who Mark is.
And you know, and and it wasfunny because our oldest son,
after he read the book, he waslike filled in a lot of gaps,
made a lot of sense, made, mademore of a picture.
(54:45):
I'm like, well, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
How about you, janice ?
Speaker 3 (54:49):
Well, when I asked Aaron why she hadn't read my
book, she says because I don'twant to cry.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (54:57):
But my kids grew up hearing stories.
I mean, our house was like ahalfway home for people crossing
.
You know, we were the aftermathbefore the aftermath.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Yes, very definitely.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
My kids heard all those kind of stories and we
never really got into it withthem, you know.
But I know my daughter.
She went to Celebrity Centerone day and they tried to do her
OCA and get her in on a courseand she's like no, thank you.
Oh my gosh, my grandmotherstarted all this.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Boom yeah, so don't, you can't pull any wool over my
eyes.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
We have like yeah, just a couple minutes.
We have four minutes left.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
I just wanted to let everyone know that at the end of
this show it's going toredirect to mark and mitch
brisker and maybe we'll just doanother another round because,
um, I, I don't know.
We could try and blow throughsome some questions real quick.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
If you want, mark, no I just thought you know, since
we only got a few minutes left,is I just want to remind
everybody that?
Yeah, claire, we reallyappreciate you doing this.
Um, I was going to ask haveyour, are your kids, have they
watched any of your videos onyoutube?
How about you?
Janice's john or a Aaronwatched any of our videos yet,
or are they pretty much stayingaway?
That's dad and mom stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
My kids have watched a little bit here and there and
we're like, eh, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
Well, we had Aaron on for one of our shows.
Yeah, we should love to doanother one.
But, yeah, let's do another oneof these.
This is great.
Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yes, absolutely here.
I'll pop up a few super chatshere real quick so we don't
leave anyone hanging.
Laura Estrada I work with andam an advocate for autistic kids
.
Throughout the horrible neglectstories Claire you rock had
shared, I often wondered howparents handle special needs in
the selfish cult, if at all.
Yeah, so that's a greatquestion.
And no, unfortunately they areneglected awfully.
(57:05):
I remember one kid in Englandand it was just not good because
Scientology treats them asdegraded beings, which
Demasterson verdict.
I thought it in poor taste, ifnot trying.
Yes, jason, I saw your email.
Thank you so much and thanksfor being here.
Let's see here.
We got two more minutes here.
Here we go.
G Nome, much love to you all.
If you have any bookrecommendations in this area,
(57:27):
would love to hear Awesome.
Yeah, janice, we'll bring thatto the next show.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
How about that?
Yeah, okay, okay, perfect.
We want to remind everybody tosubscribe to our channels too,
right, claire?
Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yes, very definitely Blown for Good.
And Our Scientology StoriesPeeling the Onion with Janice
Gillum Grady and Mark Fisher.
Do us a favor.
Hit that subscribe button, Hitthat bell notification button.
It helps with everything.
And thanks to everybody heretoday.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Selena button.
It helps with everything.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
And thanks to everybody here today.
Selena, Michelle, what else do?
Speaker 4 (57:58):
they need to do.
Janice rock, slam the likebutton.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
There you go, Selena Michelle.
My daughter has issues and hasdisconnected from the family.
It's hard.
My heart feels for you guys.
Love SPTV, hit the like button.
I'm so sorry, Selena Michelle,but yes, we very definitely feel
that.
Gary Jackson Moorhead in thehouse hey, good people, hey
Jackson, sending all the love.
Good to see you here.
Stephanie AFC, Claire Englishis, of course, the best.
(58:23):
There you go.
And then, last but not least,Dan Vestivo in the house.
Y'all are awe-inspiring.
Your motivation and drive aresomething we can all learn from
OSA excretes, poo aromas, Alwaysconsistent with theme and
discussion.
So anyway, we have one minuteleft.
It was awesome seeing you guys.
(58:44):
Thanks for the great idea, bothof you Always a fun chat and
I'm sorry we were having audioissues.
I know what to look for now.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
No, you're fine, you did fine.
It was fun.
There's a lot of fun and we haddefinitely do it again.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yes, very definitely, and maybe we can just tell
people hey, if there's morespecific things you'd like us to
target in, terms of ourparenting discussions comment in
the video um, and we will putit on the agenda.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Awesome, automatically going to switch
over.
Is that what's going to happen,or what I?
Speaker 2 (59:15):
think I have to end the stream and then it will
redirect.
Okay, bye for now.
Bye everybody.
Bye everybody.
Speaker 4 (59:23):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have hail Zinu Zinu is myhomeboy and BFG branded mouse
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content ona regular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book Blown for Good Behind
(59:45):
the Iron Curtain of Scientologyin hardback, kindle and audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast and you can get that on
Apple, spotify or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
(01:00:06):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.
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