December 9, 2025 • 60 mins
A ship. A hotel turned school. A childhood taught to keep secrets. Pamela Nicole Williams joins us to trace a rare, ground-level history of Scientology—from her parents’ early work around Hubbard in D.C. and training at St. Hill to life aboard the Royal Scotman before the Sea Org took full shape. Her memoir, Clearly Lies Are True, threads vivid scenes with careful research to show how a movement’s promises filtered into family routines, language, and choices that shaped a child’s sense of safety.
We explore the practices that defined those years: touch assists, TRs, personality tests, and the sales script built around “ruins.” Pamela explains how teens get “voluntold” into service, why labels like suppressive person keep people in line, and how sincere belief can coexist with control and abuse. She brings us into the moment repressed memories resurfaced—what it means to question your own mind, how secrecy trained in a high-control group amplifies silence, and why naming sexual abuse is both terrifying and liberating. Along the way, we connect personal timelines to Scientology milestones: early clears, St. Hill culture, the Royal Scotman’s shortages, and the pivot to the Sea Org.
This is also a story about repair. Pamela shares how writing became a tool for healing, how she told her adult daughters the truth to break generational silence, and why forgiveness—without forgetting—was the only way out of lifelong anger. We talk practical support too: she donates a portion of book proceeds to the Aftermath Foundation to help people who leave Scientology rebuild with housing, jobs, and community. If you care about cult recovery, childhood trauma, or the mechanics of indoctrination, you’ll find hard truths, clear language, and real hope here.
Listen, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show. Subscribe for more survivor stories, deep dives into high-control groups, and tools for healing and rebuilding.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:26):
Hello and welcome back to the channel.
Blown for good, ScientologyExposed.
I'm your host for today, ClaireHeadley.
And uh this is another episodeof Scientology Stories, in which
I will be interviewing authorPamela Nicole Williams, um, who
recently released Clearly LiesAre True.
(00:46):
Let me bring Pamela on and makesure I got that right.
Welcome, Pamela.
Hi, Claire.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
So great to be here.
Thank you.
You got it all right.
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (00:55):
Perfect.
All right.
And so so grateful to have thisopportunity to meet you and talk
with you.
Um, I I really appreciate thatyou shared your book with me um
ahead of your release.
Um, and so I I read the firsthalf and then I listened to your
audible book for the secondhalf.
Um, you did a really good job onthe Audible book, by the way.
SPEAKER_03 (01:19):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:20):
Yes, absolutely.
So why don't we start with umfor our viewers today who may
not know who you are and yourand your story, can you give me
an overview of um your ex youruh what led you to writing this
book?
SPEAKER_03 (01:37):
What led me to writing it?
Okay.
Oh gosh, it was such a longjourney, but in a nutshell, um I
had a traumatic event happenabout 15 years ago that
activated um some memories.
And so my book is about myScientology experiences that I
had kind of buried.
I had, you know, glimmers ofthem and I shut the door on
(01:59):
Scientology and lived my life.
And then I had some repressedmemories of sexual abuse that
started to pop up.
And so that was the impetus forwriting.
I started journaling, I startedjust trying to get it out.
I didn't know what to do withall of it.
Um, and it was pretty scary.
And I, as I wrote, I realizedthat I had a Scientology
(02:21):
chronology that I really hadnever thought about in the big
picture in the history ofScientology.
You know, I'd really shut thedoor on that once um I left as a
teenager and moved on and reallynever wanted to revisit that
part of my life at all.
SPEAKER_04 (02:37):
Which I will say is not an unusual reaction to um
childhood experiences inScientology.
Um, in my case, I was you knowborn and raised in Scientology.
My mom was in the C organizationstarting when I was four years
old.
And I never spoke with myhusband about any of the he
(02:58):
didn't even know I was in thecadet organization until after
we escaped.
SPEAKER_03 (03:04):
Yeah.
So you within the ranks ofScientology, you didn't talk
about it.
Say that again.
I said, even within the ranks ofScientology, you didn't talk
about it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:13):
No, even more so.
Like it's best not just to notsay anything.
If you have nothing, Mark alwaysjokes that his mom would tell
him, if you have nothing good tosay, don't say anything at all.
Uh that's very much true foranyone who you know had
childhood experiences inScientology.
But what was fascinating to meabout your story, and I'd love
(03:34):
for you to give your perspectiveon this, but your parents got
into Scientology before you wereborn, correct?
SPEAKER_03 (03:41):
Correct.
So my dad dabbled with umDianetics at the Wichita
Dianetics Foundation because helived um in Kansas.
And so that's where hediscovered L.
Ron Hubbard's um theories andbeliefs.
And so when he met my mom, mymom was not a Scientologist,
didn't know anything about it.
(04:01):
And so um he got her involved.
And once Hubbard left and wentto DC, to Washington, D.C., um,
because everything fell apart atthe Dianetics Foundation, um, he
had financial issues.
Um, my dad wanted them to followEl Ron Hubbard, and so they
moved to Washington, D.C.
(04:22):
And they worked closely with himand with Mary Sue at the very
beginning of Scientology, theHubbard Association of
Scientologists, and they wereactive in the Congresses, and
you know, I really didn't knowall that either, Claire.
I had to do that research when Istarted writing my story to kind
of figure out like they didn'ttalk about that a little bit,
but I really didn't know, youknow, exactly what happened and
(04:43):
um how involved they were.
So I, my mom was pregnant um atthe same time that Mary Sue was
pregnant with Arthur Hubbard.
So Arthur Hubbard and I are thesame age, although I think she
was born in June and I'm born inNovember.
SPEAKER_04 (04:57):
Wow.
So, and and again, just forcontext for people listening,
we're talking about the veryearly beginning days of
dianetics and Scientology,correct?
SPEAKER_03 (05:08):
Correct, correct, yes.
So 1957 to 1959, my parents werein Washington, D.C., um, working
side by side with Elwyn Hebertand other Scientologists.
And, you know, whenever I talkabout it, I I liken it to like
it felt grassroots, I think, atthe time.
But like my mom always, youknow, I think she enjoyed it.
You know, I never heardnegatives about that period of
(05:31):
time.
And they had friends, and youknow, it was um very um
analytical.
And my mom was, you know, veryanalytical and loved all that.
And, you know, pop nobbingduring that period of time, it
was almost the 60s, you know,the late 50s.
And it felt um, I don't want tosay new age, but kind of, you
know, at that time, at thatperiod of time, it felt
(05:53):
exciting.
You know, it was definitelyagainst um Christianity that she
and my dad had been raised in.
So it was something new andexciting for them, a new way of
thinking.
SPEAKER_04 (06:04):
That makes sense.
Um, and so let me ask you.
So your title, Clearly Lies AreTrue, is is striking.
And I wanted to hear from you,what does that represent to you?
SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
Gosh, that's a great question.
I don't know if I've had thatone yet.
Um let's see.
Well, you know, as a writer, andI now can say that, I can own
it.
I'm a writer and I'm an author.
Um, that was really hard for meto own for a very long time,
even through the whole process.
Um, even when I got the book inthe mail, I didn't, I didn't own
(06:37):
it.
Um to me that that title came tome.
I I had many working titles.
And throughout the writingjourney, that title came to me
and I wrote it down and itstuck.
I kept revisiting it and I keptthinking, you know, should it it
(06:59):
had to have something to do withclear?
SPEAKER_04 (07:01):
Because I knew I wanted to bring in that about,
you know, because you becomeclear in Scientology, and that's
you know the state of clearthat's outlined in Dianetics,
which I would imagine was a bigpart of what your father was
initially perhaps interested in.
SPEAKER_03 (07:18):
Very much so, very much so.
So um, so he was one of theoriginal clears um back in DC.
So there are about 15 of them,and I found that, and that was
really interesting to me becausehe always wore his clear
bracelet and he told me thestory of it, but I really didn't
get the significance of all ofthat, you know, as as a child.
(07:40):
And so that clear piece, andthen, you know, clearly the lies
in Scientology are true, peoplebelieve them.
Like, and so, you know, it'sthat that truth versus lies, and
and who's to say which is which.
SPEAKER_04 (07:55):
Right.
Did do you by chance know yourfather's clear number?
I'm curious.
SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
Oh gosh.
Um, I know my mom's, it's 700.
Um it's in the book, yeah.
I wonder do I know it?
I don't think it was it becausethere's there's two different,
so I don't know his second clearnumber because you know those
first clears, those first 15clears, ended up being, you
know, in Scientology you'd sayinvalidated.
(08:21):
They ended up not being, youknow, the true clear because of
course they came out with morethings you had to do to become
clear.
Yes, more auditing you had to beinvolved in, you know, to become
clear.
So I know that he did all ofthat, but I don't know.
I want to say it's in the 400s.
SPEAKER_04 (08:39):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Either way, the point remainsthere.
Very early days Scientologists.
And and so at what point in yourchildhood did you like how old
were you, let's say, when yourealized that your parents were
involved in this mysteriousorganization known as
Scientology?
SPEAKER_03 (09:00):
That's another really good question.
I don't think it became I don'tthink I really understood it as
Scientology until we went to St.
Hill.
So, you know, as a child, Imean, you know, I knew that we
spoke differently.
My parents believed differentthings.
I mean, I, you know, you learnearly on as a kid how to hide
(09:22):
the things you don't want yourfriends to know about.
SPEAKER_04 (09:24):
For sure.
100%.
SPEAKER_03 (09:28):
And so I always knew that, like, okay, this is
something that like only happensin my house.
I don't see that happening, youknow, in friends' homes.
It's it's different.
Um, but when we went to St.
Hill, so that was in 66, 67, mymom packed um me and my little
brother up.
So we were at like nine andfour.
(09:49):
And she went to Saint Hill.
And you know, I remember flying.
SPEAKER_04 (09:52):
And of course, for anyone listening, just to say
Saint Hill is the Scientologyheadquarters in England.
Um, and and it again, that'swhere there are so many
parallels that I could relate toin your book because my my my
mother joined the seaorganization at Saint Hill in
1979.
(10:13):
So when I was four years old,that's when when I went there.
So you talked about TempridgeWells, and I was like, Oh yeah,
those my my old digs.
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
Yeah, just for the 10-year difference.
Really?
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
Yes, exactly.
But go ahead.
So you were talking about whenyou arrived at St.
Hill and you're nine years old.
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
So then I realized that there were more people like
my parents because it was allScientologists at the Harewood
Hotel in Tunbridge Wells, youknow, where we stayed.
And so, you know, that's that'swho we were around all the time.
That's so the only people that,you know, I saw my mom talking
to that were at the hotel, youknow, she got in the van to get
driven to St.
(10:55):
Hill, you know, in the morningand then, you know, came back at
night.
And um I I realized then that,oh, like there's a a lot of
these, you know, people thatthat believe this.
Um, and then we went to some umchild care in England for a
short period of time when wewere, uh my mom was at St.
Hill, and there was a little boythere who was South African and
(11:18):
he from South Africa and hisparents were Scientologists, and
that's how my mom, you know,found out about that daycare.
Although the woman who took careof us was not.
Yeah, she didn't have anythingto do with it.
Um, and then, you know, ofcourse, when we got on the ship,
so that's another part of mystory, is that um we got on the
Royal Scotman before it becamethe Apollo, which was the
(11:41):
Scientology Sea Org ship.
So at the very beginning of theC project, so before it even
became the C organization.
And, you know, it's it'sHubbard's L.
Ryan Hubbard's story of, youknow, he left DC, he went to the
UK fleeing, you know, taxes,then he had to buy a ship to go
to the Mediterranean to flee,you know, more taxes, and you
(12:01):
know, to keep hiding and to keepbeing able to make money, you
know, without being taxed.
So we followed that.
And I'm I really I never askedmy mother the why, and that's a
regret that I wish, you know, Ihave a lot of regrets about that
of with our relationship, butthat I I wish I knew I knew why.
Why did we get on that ship?
You know, what was going on?
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
So it was, and it was the very beginning.
So there was the crew that were,you know, brought on and they
were all Scientologists, andthen there were the public.
And so that was my mom and mylittle brother and I, and a
bunch of other public people.
And so they were givenScientology auditing and and I
don't know if maybe traininghappened too.
I'm not really sure.
SPEAKER_04 (12:44):
Right.
And that that was something thatsurprised me because I didn't, I
had I just hadn't personallyrealized that children of
civilian Scientologists evenwere brought onto that ship in
the very early days.
As you said, before even therewas a C organization or a
billion-year contract or all ofthat.
It was my mind-boggling to me toknow that um there's just
(13:10):
decades and decades of the sametreatment of children that's
been going on since the get-go.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
unknown (13:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
And that's a good point.
Um, I think I don't want to sayspared.
I mean, the really horriblethings, you know, with being put
in chain lockers and peoplejumping overboard and all of
that was not happening, luckily,when we were on the ship.
Um, you know, it happened after.
But and I think also because ofit being the very beginning, and
(13:45):
the Hubbard children were on theship.
So that, you know, they left St.
Hill, and then that was theirnew home.
And so Mary Sue, Hubbard's wife,decided that, you know, the
children were gonna still begetting their education.
You know, this was their newhome, and so they needed to
still have an education.
And so there was a tutor, SylviaHare, and she was a
Scientologist, and she wasbrought on board to tutor.
(14:08):
And so we were there with theHubbard kids and other kids.
So we had this like kind ofstrange routine in that there
was the nursery where we werekept with other kids.
Um, but we had this nanny thatwas not very nice to us, who was
a Scientologist.
And, you know, kids were just umthey were expendable, you know,
(14:29):
they were not really um, therewasn't a place for them.
There really wasn't a place forthem.
SPEAKER_04 (14:34):
And even I'm very definitely not a priority.
SPEAKER_03 (14:39):
Definitely not a priority.
Yeah, definitely not a priority.
And so, you know, we we I wentto school with them, I was
tutored with them, and then wewere in the the nursery, and I
helped take care of other littlekids there.
There was a little baby we usedto take care of.
And I remember um I write aboutone incident.
(14:59):
Um, maybe this speaks to justthe conditions on the ship at
that time.
Because they weren't allowed togo into port in any of the
Mediterranean ports, they werejust not letting them in.
Um, they had no provisions.
So they had stocked atSouthampton, you know, stock
provisions, and then it tookthem several different ports
(15:22):
until they were finally let in.
We were let in at Valencia inSpain.
And so food was becoming scarce,and you know, it's been
documented in there.
And that was really interestingto me to read about that history
too, because I have this veryclear memory of being served
tongue.
SPEAKER_04 (15:40):
Oh, yes, I do remember that that part of your
story.
I was like, oh gosh, I wouldhave reacted the same way you
did, like, no thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (15:48):
But it was like that's all that was left were
these, you know, and and thenthis watery soup that they would
serve.
So, you know, conditions werenot good for anyone, definitely,
you know, for children as well.
But I learned a lot about thatperiod of time too from talking
to Janice Gillam Grady, youknow, and her experiences as the
Commodore's messenger and andwhen she boarded the ship.
(16:11):
Um, it was really the coming andthe going.
So we were going, civilians wereoffboarded, and the coming was
this was the real seaorganization.
SPEAKER_04 (16:20):
Wow.
So were you on the ship at thesame time as Janice, or you're
there.
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_03 (16:28):
I always say we were ships in the night.
Yeah.
We were because she she went on,she's a couple of years older
than I am, and so she was theone who actually helped me with
that timeline.
Is that we were offboarded inright before January, so in
December, and then they wereonboarded in January.
SPEAKER_04 (16:47):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
So literally, literally, literally just missed
each other.
And when I um had gone on her umchannel, she showed me some
pictures of the ship, and thatwas so cool.
And that I remember like of theship when she was on there, and
there was the room where we weretutored, and I said, Oh my god,
that's the room.
SPEAKER_04 (17:11):
Wow, that's that's crazy to come full circle like
that.
SPEAKER_03 (17:15):
Yeah.
But you know, think aboutputting children or families or
anybody in an old, you know,cattle ship that's really not
even been renovated that well,you know, is just not a good
idea.
SPEAKER_04 (17:27):
No, definitely not.
So, how long were you on theRoyal Scotman?
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
So we were on from November, the Maiden Voyage,
until that December when we wereoffboarded.
Yeah, when we left off, yeah.
So I'm not sure exactly um, youknow, the date on in December.
I mean, I know the maiden voyagedate, so it was pretty close to
that.
SPEAKER_04 (17:53):
Okay.
So about a month give or take.
SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
Month and a half, yeah, yeah.
And I think that was really umsomething that my mom didn't
know was going to happen, butwas fortuitous for all of us.
SPEAKER_04 (18:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:08):
Because I think she may have been given the choice
to stay on, but without us.
SPEAKER_04 (18:15):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03 (18:16):
Because children, you know, we're not gonna be on
the ship.
SPEAKER_04 (18:19):
Yeah.
But did but so so you madereference to being tutored with
the Hubbard children.
Did they stay on the ship orwere they also then removed from
the ship?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
I don't know, but I think they were still on the
ship.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
I think so.
SPEAKER_03 (18:36):
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure because Iremember when I was at um
Celebrity Center, which is partof my story, you know, in the
70s, um, the very originalcelebrity center that Yvonne
Gillum Gents um started.
unknown (18:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
And um Quentin Hubbard came to visit.
He did a like it was uh anevent, and he was sick.
SPEAKER_04 (18:58):
And Quentin was Hubbard's oldest son or not his
oldest?
SPEAKER_03 (19:04):
Yes, well, except for his, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:07):
It was aside from the the Hubbard, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, he was the oldsecond wife he never had, or
whatever.
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
So there was Diana Quentin, Suzanne, and then yeah,
yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:23):
And of course, I worked with Diana at the
headquarters for many years.
I was I was at Rowan, herdaughter, El Ron Hubbard's
granddaughter's wedding.
Rowan is a very good friend ofours, anyway.
It's just it's just crazy.
There are so many interactions,but and we'll get to some of
those later too.
But so circling back, youmentioned your father had read
(19:47):
Dianetics in the very earlydays.
Do you know how he gotintroduced to it?
Like, did he just find you know,buy the book of the bookstore,
or was there a person thatintroduced him?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (20:01):
I don't know if there was a person, but I know
that he was a big sci-fi reader.
SPEAKER_04 (20:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
So, you know, that's my connection with it in that he
was reading astounding sciencefiction, you know, that Hubbard
was writing.
And so I think that he got drawninto it that way because he was
always very interested in that.
SPEAKER_04 (20:19):
Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
But I don't know.
There might have been a personas well.
Yeah, but I don't know.
Like I said, those are theunanswered questions that I
always regret that I didn't haveenough time with my parents to
ask those questions.
SPEAKER_04 (20:32):
Yeah.
And and just to say, I am sosorry for uh you being a victim
of child essay and everythingthat you outlined.
I I really appreciate yourbravery and courage in sharing
you those parts of your story,especially, but also just your
entire Scientology story.
I think I personally believethat every voice matters and is
(20:55):
important.
So thank you for doing this.
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
Yeah, thank you, Claire.
Um, like I said, I didn't startout to do it.
I didn't start out to do it, andI just was trying to figure it
out and to get everything out ofmy my head onto paper.
And the more I wrote, then Irealized there's a story here.
And I started to see thoseparallels and I started to do so
much research about.
(21:19):
I mean, I started, you know,dabbling into um, you know, the
internet, and it was at theperiod of time when I was
writing that Leah Remney cameout also, and I thought, oh my
gosh, like people are startingto speak out about it.
Like that was really not thehistory of Scientology.
You know, you just kept quiet,right?
And it was underground.
(21:40):
Like, you know, there was TonyOrtega's blog and you know, and
his website, you know, which Iperused, and Clam Bake and all
those different ones, and juststarted digging and reading
stories and you know, readingFairfaced Messiah and reading
people's other people's memoirs.
I read Jesse Prince's, I read,you know, so many, just to try
(22:01):
to figure out, you know, how didthis fit into the story?
And then I realized, okay, thereis a story here.
And um, but people saycourageous.
I I don't feel courageous, Ijust feel like I was compelled
in that it was the only way Iwas gonna get better.
SPEAKER_04 (22:20):
Yes, though I will say I'm a firm believer that
courage is feeling fear anddoing it and face doing it or
facing it anyway.
You know, I I feel the same waywhen someone says, Oh, you're so
courageous.
I'm like, Well, I wouldn'treally use that word, but when I
saw that meaning of it, that'sto me where I say it is
courageous.
SPEAKER_02 (22:41):
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (22:44):
It's not that easy, you know.
It's I think the sexual abusepiece was really um one of the
harder things, and to try tomake sense of that.
Um, and to accept that theacceptance, but you know,
because it's when you leave acult, it's accepting that you
had beliefs or that youconnected with beliefs that were
(23:04):
somewhat crazy, you know, andthat you have to rethink all
that and and realize that youknow you were not crazy, it was
what was going on was crazy,right?
Right, completely right, and sowith sexual abuse, um, it's
accepting that that reallyhappened to you and being able
to speak about it.
And what I found is that um it'snot comfortable for a lot of
(23:27):
people.
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:28):
You know, talking about Scientology is
uncomfortable for a lot ofpeople, and talking about sexual
abuse isn't comfortable for alot of people.
So yeah, it's it's not foreverybody to to hear these
stories.
SPEAKER_04 (23:39):
Yeah, though, uh yes, you're you're absolutely
right.
Though it is like you said, it'sempowering to take back your
voice and share your experiencesand you know, let that let that
all out.
unknown (23:53):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (23:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So okay, so circling back, um sofor from your perspective, what
are your earliest Scientologymemories?
unknown (24:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:08):
My earliest Scientology memories are
probably of getting a touchassist as a little kid.
So, you know, the touch assistis the the faith healing laying
on of the hands in Scientology.
Um, you know, and if you felldown and skinned your knee, you
know, you'd get a touch assist,or if you had a fever, you know,
you'd get a touch assist.
And um it's not a bad memory.
(24:29):
It's just um, you know, it it'sit's like that's how my family
dealt with if you were sick.
SPEAKER_04 (24:35):
Right.
Yep, I can definitely relatethere.
I can remember as a very youngchild, so yes, there were touch
assists, and then there was alsothe contact assist, where when
you hurt yourself, you have toput it back and release the
moment of pain.
And I was I was as a child, andI'm curious to hear your
perspective on the assist thatyou experienced.
(24:57):
But for me, I was like, hey, Ijust I just hit my let's say my
hand on the desk.
Why would I now go touch it backover and over and over again?
It was it was just a rejectionthat I could never voice.
SPEAKER_03 (25:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Gosh, you know, I had not eventhought about that one, Claire.
You're bringing back a memory.
I think that happened when I wasriding my bike and I fell off,
and now, yeah, and I had to likere-replay the fall.
SPEAKER_04 (25:30):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
Right, you had to replay the fall.
And I remember thinking at thetime, like, I just want to get
up and go home.
Like, I don't want to, you know,I don't want to keep falling
down.
Right.
Um, yeah, and you know, luckily,these were not um serious
injuries.
SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
You know, thankfully, when I did have a
serious injury, you know, myparents did um take me to the
doctor.
I cut my leg open and had tohave, you know, stitches and
things like that.
So um I remember a touch assistas well, but I was at least
taken to the doctor and youknow, stitches were put in.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
Yeah, that's yeah, that's good.
Yeah, I've had mixed experiencesin my childhood on that
department, but um yeah, and sookay, so that was your earliest
memories.
And so let me ask you, what wasthe first course, like training
that you ever did inScientology?
And how old were you?
unknown (26:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
So I did take a communication course at St.
Hill.
I have the certificate.
I cannot, for the life of me,remember it.
I don't know why.
But um, I remember going likewith my mom to St.
Hill a couple of times, and Idon't, but I don't remember like
what we did.
But I have a couple of those.
(26:46):
I have the communication coursecertificate, and I have the ARC
something training certificate,affinity reality communication,
whatever it was we did there.
So I don't have good memories ofthose, but I have the
certificates.
But my very earliest memorieswould be when I was a teenager,
when I started volunteering atCelebrity Center.
(27:08):
And so I was kind of voluntoleto go because my parents, um,
it's part of my story, um, bothof them um had some health
issues, and so they were nolonger participating in
Scientology, and you know,really they were no longer
giving money to Scientology, andso they really weren't important
to Scientology anymore.
(27:28):
So they needed fresh blood.
So I was voluntold and I startedat Celebrity Center just
volunteering, and then I startedtaking courses.
So I would say it was again thecommunication course, the TRs.
SPEAKER_04 (27:42):
So that's where I the training routines.
And and just do you rememberdoing those drills as a as a
teenager?
SPEAKER_03 (27:51):
I do.
I do remember doing thosedrills.
So it was the, you know, dobirds fly, do fish swim, it was
all of those crazy things.
And I remember as a teenager, soone of the the things I write
about in my story too is that,you know, even though it was
celebrity center and they werebringing in celebrities, they
still did what Scientology umtells you to do, which is you
bring in people who have ruins,right?
(28:13):
Which is there's things that youknow are wrong with them.
You're basically just pullingpeople off the street and giving
them the personality test andthen saying, okay, here it is.
This is the thing that's wrongwith you, and this is what you
need to sign up for.
SPEAKER_04 (28:25):
And Scientology can help you with that.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (28:28):
And Scientology can fix that, right?
SPEAKER_04 (28:30):
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
Yes, sorry, go ahead.
You pay a lot of money and uhspend a lot of time.
But there was a man who was um,you know, and it was downtown
Los Angeles, so it wasn't in agreat area of town, and so there
were people walking by all thetime.
So this man who was blind wasbrought in, and he was probably
(28:52):
given the personality test, andhe was signed up, and he was the
person that I was running theTRs with.
And it was a very strangeexperience.
It was, I don't want to sayscary because I don't remember
feeling scared, but I rememberjust thinking, I've never looked
(29:13):
at a blind person's eyes beforebecause they didn't have
sunglasses on, or you know, Iremember thinking, I'm I don't
know why he's not wearingglasses, like maybe they told
him to take his glasses off.
I don't even know.
But running those drills withhim and thinking to myself as a
teenager, this is really doesn'tmake any sense.
SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
But you couldn't say that.
You know, you you couldn't youcouldn't say anything like that.
You had to just do it.
And I remember thinking, like,what does it have to do with
like communication?
SPEAKER_04 (29:43):
Right.
Yeah, makes sense.
Um and so you were what age whatfrom when you were at celebrity
center now?
SPEAKER_03 (29:54):
So I started at 13.
So to me, uh, you know, it was adeciding to go there because you
know I was a teenager.
Um I didn't want to be at home.
You know, my parents were, mydad was um disabled, um, and my
mom was agoraphobic, and it wasnot a fun place to be.
(30:15):
And so any place besides homewas good.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (30:18):
You know, and I I liked going.
And you know, it was all adultstoo.
And I've talked about thisbefore where, you know, as a
child in Scientology, as a, youknow, and I was a child who was
13, um, 13 to like 15 and then16 when I left.
Um you're viewed as an adult.
Right.
(30:38):
Because in Scientology theybelieve that you are a Thaytan
who is, I don't know, I say likea soul, but it's not like a
soul.
It's somebody who's livedmillions and millions and
millions of lives.
You know, it's like you'reyou're infinite.
And so this is one of yourlives.
And so you just happen to be,you know, this Thetan and it's a
very young body.
But you've been all kinds ofpeople before this.
(31:01):
And so they view you as anequal.
Right.
And that was really heavy.
I liked that.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
Yeah.
And so speaking about your timeat Celebrity Center, another uh
parallel you were talking aboutRay Midoff and Gelda.
And um so again I worked withboth Ray and Gelda at the
headquarters for many yearsuntil um until I escaped Ray I'm
(31:32):
sure is if he's still alive isin the hole um banished off of
all management lines ofScientology.
But interestingly I was 16 yearsold when I arrived at the
headquarters and Gelda became mylegal guardian.
What my parents signed overguardianship of me uh because I
(31:55):
had to have a legal guardian atthat property.
So I had never met her when thathappened but she she was my my
senior my boss and also myguardian wow yeah it's crazy
right that is crazy.
Yeah so your your description ofGelda exactly matched it it you
(32:16):
know I mean it was 20 years 20some I mean I so it was a long
time later.
Now I'm talking 1991 1992 iswhen I met Gelda when I arrived
at that property but it was justagain like I said the the worst
things that I could relate toand people that you mentioned
that I'm like oh yeah yeah yeahso was she a good mom no no no
(32:44):
that's my guess yeah yeah umyeah it's so funny so funny yeah
I can't even believe thatbecause she was older than Ray.
SPEAKER_03 (32:53):
Yeah yeah and older Ray and you know um it it's one
thing that um you know I didn'tput his last name I I did
originally have his last name inthe book and then when I was
working with my editor andeverything and I said you know
I'm gonna take it out I don'tknow I don't want any
repercussions because of thatbut you know everybody I've
(33:13):
talked to about him it's likeyeah he's probably still there
and I remember I asked someone Isaid why do you think he never
left I mean he seemed like agood guy like you know he he did
not seem and those were myfeelings you know at the time
that he just you know he had ahe had an altruistic purpose
yeah yeah sadly he is the firstperson that I personally
(33:38):
witnessed David Miscavigephysically assault in March of
1996 and as to why he's stillthere I think he he probably on
some level does truly believelike you know there are people
in the upper levels ofScientology there's two
categories of people there thereare people there to wield power
(34:01):
and control and there are peoplethere who really believe in
Hubbard and then there arepeople there who are just there
by default and don't want tolose their families and
everything else I think I Ithink of anybody I think Ray and
Shelly Miscavige both were truebelievers like they had drunk
(34:24):
the Kool-Aid that's just mypersonal perspective yeah that's
what someone else told me aswell yeah for both of those
people yeah I've heard that forboth of those people so um it's
very sad it's very very very sadand um it speaks to you know it
speaks to the cult you knownature of Scientology it speaks
(34:48):
to you know the coercive tacticsit speaks to the abuse like you
said he's still abused and stillstays um I think also it speaks
to that longevity that there'sprobably and I don't want to say
like a sweet spot but there'slike a time when you're you're
kind of like okay I could leaveI mean you left you know and I
know and other people left butit's like you know Ray's old now
(35:13):
you know in his 70s and you knoware you gonna leave?
What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_04 (35:19):
Right and and after so many years of isolation and
you know just being in acomplete bubble if you will um
like and feeling stuck in abubble it can be very very hard
but it is never too late.
That's that's the upside so youknow um but but it nonetheless
(35:40):
it's um very challenging I'veheard it likened to the sunk
cost fallacy um but on anemotional and even time
perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
So not sunk cost fallacy is usually money, stock
market and so forth but if youtranslate that into well how
hard is it when you've been in acult for 30 40 50 years to wake
up and and acknowledge toyourself that this was a huge
(36:11):
mistake right exactly yeah yeahexactly and and that is a very
very difficult thing to do avery difficult thing I mean it
was difficult enough to speakout you know as you have and as
I have and everybody else whohas because you are you're
questioning that part of yourlife you know and you're saying
(36:34):
I mean and I didn't have a lotof choice you didn't have a lot
of choice either you know we wewere God we became
Scientologists because of ourparents right um but even for my
my mother when she left and youknow eventually she was able to
um whenever she spoke of it andmaybe that makes a lot of sense
(36:55):
now she spoke of it in a waythat like not fondly but as if
it was okay you know just tomake probably herself not think
what a waste of time.
SPEAKER_04 (37:07):
Right yeah I mean I would love to hear your thoughts
on this personally sorry noworries personally uh having
gotten out of Scientology andnow having children that was for
me one of the hugest wake upcalls to actually confront and
(37:30):
face what I experienced as achild the trauma I went through
and everything else because whenyou have children of your own
all of a sudden for and againI'm speaking from my perspective
not speaking for you of coursebut um you know at every
milestone I would reflect on wowthat's like when my oldest son
(37:51):
turned four years old I'm likewow that's the age I was when my
mother abandoned me to the cadetorganization I'm curious what
your experience was with that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
Yeah very much the same very much the same even
though I'd shut the door on it Imean you know when you said you
hadn't even told you know yourhusband um I had told my husband
very very little he knew alittle bit about it but I I
didn't talk about it you knowand once I got married and you
know we started a family I meanI definitely never talked about
it but those memories would comeup and I didn't really I didn't
(38:26):
even realize why like I getanxious or nervous or you know
part of it was the sexual abuseyou know when my children were
the same age as I was when I wassexually abused but also those
milestone experiences so like onthe ship you know at nine years
old when we you know went thereand then at 13 you know when I
when I got involved withScientology.
(38:48):
But even as a younger child likethinking um wow yeah that's that
we my mom took us on a plane youknow and took us all the way to
England and then dumped us in ahotel room and went to St.
Hill and did training andauditing and then went on a ship
and you know barely ever saw usand like who would do that right
(39:08):
yeah it it just was you knowunfathomable to think that
that's how you would parent butI don't know about you I made
the decision um very clearly tomyself that I was never going to
parent the way that my parentshad oh I mean 100% 100% like it
was like this the minute I gotout of it I'm like nope we are
(39:31):
not doing that.
Did did those experiences causeany latent anger towards your
parents oh yes oh yes um so mymom and I you know we never um
we had a very interestingrelationship um and you know
sadly she passed um years agoyou know she she passed when I
(39:54):
was 38 years old I mean my daddied when I was 19 so both of my
parents died early um so Ididn't really have that
opportunity to heal with themwhich I do I do regret um I
don't know if I would havehappened had they still been
living I don't know you know butI think it might have been an
opportunity so I was very angrywith my mother for most of my
(40:17):
life yes very angry with her butI didn't really know why I was
so mad at her.
And a lot of that had to do withthe sexual abuse and that um she
learned of it and then shedidn't do anything about it and
so it went underground.
But as a sexual abuse survivor Ilearned that sometimes you align
(40:38):
with the perpetrator and so Iwas always um on my dad's side
you know and not my mom's sidewhich was so crazy you know
thinking about it now after whatI know about the abuse.
So I was always angry with herbut I think a lot of that had to
do with just I I could tell thatshe just wasn't like other moms.
(41:02):
Like she just didn't have thatmaternal instinct or that skill
set.
And even though I hadn't evenreflected on all the craziness
at that time I just knew thatyou know she wasn't a good mom.
Yeah and and I was mad at herfor that.
SPEAKER_04 (41:18):
Yep I no I totally get that and I I've often
reflected on maybe at least inmy scenario maybe that was part
of the draw for my mother tojoin the C organization because
it essentially alleviated her ofthe burden of me because she
(41:38):
just dropped me off into thecadet org you know so and I know
that I'm not sure if that wasthe case for you or not but yes
you're right that the theculture of Scientology does not
um lend itself to makingexcellent parents that's for
damn sure that is for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (42:01):
And just the thinking the way that um you are
trained or you knowindoctrinated into thinking as a
Scientologist you don't see theworld as it is you see it
through that Scientology lens.
And so you know you're notmaking clear decisions you know
(42:23):
that align with you know whatreally should be happening in
the world.
You know an example is like Ididn't realize um that we didn't
go to doctors or dentists youknow throughout my whole
childhood.
And then finally when we movedto Los Angeles um and my mom got
out of Scientology and she hadto start working because my dad
(42:45):
was disabled she finally gothealth insurance and we were I
mean we had health insurancebefore though I know because my
dad worked but she startedsending us to the dentist and I
had like five zillion cavitiesand I remember like there was
always another dentalappointment I remember thinking
why do I have so many like whydo I have to keep going to the
(43:06):
dentist what's wrong with me andas an adult I started to think
about that oh I didn't get thatcare.
SPEAKER_04 (43:12):
Right.
Yeah totally makes sense umanother question I have so as
we've talked about your bookbravely discusses the
experiences you had with childsexual assault how did
Scientology's teachings impactyour ability to name or
understand what was happening sowhat was happening at the time
(43:35):
right like with with um so forexample in and in terms of I
guess framing it a little betterum in my experience the whole
pretext of Scientology that ifanything bad happens to you
you've pulled it in it's yourfault the victim shaming all of
(43:56):
that I'm just curious how thatdid that have an impact in your
experience in those early daysor what's your perspective on
that?
SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
Yeah yeah that's a good question.
SPEAKER_03 (44:07):
Um and thought of it through that lens.
So I did not remember the sexualabuse until I had this traumatic
event happen that activatedthose memories.
So that's when I started to havethese flashbacks and you know
I'd been in therapy my wholelife for anxiety and you know
(44:28):
panic attacks because thosewould happen you know at
different times within my mylife especially like we were
talking about when our kids werea certain age and they would
always ask me you know were yousexually abused do you have any
history of that and I wouldalways say no but I always had a
memory of sitting on my dad'slap and him telling us telling
me that we had a secret and thatwe had to keep that secret from
(44:49):
my mom.
And so I write about that inthat Scientology is about
secrets.
Right.
And so I already had thatScientology secret.
I don't tell my friends aboutthe Scientology stuff that my
parents talk about at home orthe Scientology magazines or the
you know the why we were not inschool for six months and then
(45:12):
we came back and then we werelike you know where were you?
Like nobody talked about that.
My parents didn't talk about itand I didn't talk about it.
So secrets were very familiar.
Keeping secrets was veryfamiliar to me.
So that was really my lens as achild.
So then when all of this youknow came out later in life and
(45:36):
I started you know having theserepressed memories it was hard
to accept them at first becauseI thought to myself as many
sexual abuse survivors do wellyou know why are you just
remembering it now why whydidn't you remember it before
you know this was a really longtime ago and it wasn't going
(45:58):
away though.
You know it wasn't going awayand it was always the same.
And I know as an educator um youknow as a mandated reporter in
dealing with children um thatthe way that trauma manifests
itself you know and the way thatyou um survive a lot of trauma
is by repressing it and you knowand and by keeping it inside.
(46:21):
So so but at the time I I didn'tI just knew there were secrets.
Yeah and also because I had thisanger with my mom because she
did walk in on us and I do I didhave that memory.
I didn't realize what it wasuntil more memories happened and
how angry she was that oh yeahwe're definitely not going to
(46:42):
talk about this.
It's definitely going to beanother secret and this is the
secret that my dad and I haveand so like I said I aligned
with him yeah sadly.
SPEAKER_04 (46:50):
I'm so sorry.
Yeah no it's it's um it's a lotto live through well let me
pause for a minute I'm gonnapull up your book cover here and
so everyone can take a look andof course I will include a link
to your book do you have apreference on where people
should purchase this from um Ithink wherever they want to um
(47:12):
you know it's on Amazon so it'sa paperback it's an audible and
it's an ebook um you can alsoorder it if you go to your local
bookstore like Barnes and Nobleshas it so you can order it
through Ingram because it'spublished through that um
publishing company as wellbecause they self-published.
SPEAKER_03 (47:28):
So you can look it up even a lot of independent
bookstores um will have it soyou can look for it online.
SPEAKER_04 (47:34):
Yeah yeah awesome so yes clearly lies are true and
just to read what thedescription you have here Pamela
Nickel Williams is the author ofClearly Lies Are True a memoir
that offers a firsthand accountof growing up as the daughter of
early Scientology followersduring the 1950s 60s and 70s
through detailed experiences asexperiences and vivid memories
(47:57):
she reveals how the movementpowerfully and forcefully shaped
her family and her own childhoodand teenage years.
I think that's a greatdescription that's on point.
SPEAKER_03 (48:10):
Yeah yeah to get to that yes so I'm hoping I can and
I don't know maybe I'll wait formore questions but um I wanted
to talk about also the journeyand the of the writing and then
having to have some purpose withit.
SPEAKER_04 (48:25):
Absolutely go for it.
SPEAKER_03 (48:27):
Go for it okay um because it was one thing to
write it all down and it was onething to spend years and years
writing it and then to finallyhave it come to fruition and to
go on that healing journey.
So that has been you know just Iwouldn't say wonderful but it
has been um positive.
Yes it's been positive to sharethat with my own children so I
(48:50):
have four children fourdaughters and they're all adults
now um to and I never told themabout it.
Never told them about it.
You know it was it was thegenerational trauma secret you
know that nobody talked aboutand I wasn't going to talk about
it.
And so to be able to share thatwith them and to come full
circle and to say okay we'rebreaking this you know you know
about it I've talked about it Idon't have to keep this a secret
(49:13):
anymore was so healing so sohealing.
So that was you know thepersonal healing but because
Scientology is such a horribleorganization um and because of
my experiences and all of theexperiences that I've read about
and heard about I needed to dosomething more.
(49:34):
And so I want to donate and I doum a profit a portion of the
profits from the sale of my bookto the Aftermath Foundation.
SPEAKER_04 (49:42):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (49:43):
So well it's you're welcome.
SPEAKER_04 (49:46):
No but truly we I I was going to mention that you um
I I heard at the in the endsection you talk about the
Michael J.
Rinder Aftermath Foundation it'sum it's been quite the journey
and we appreciate your support.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (50:03):
Yeah it it had to have a purpose because you know
and after reading you know MikeRinder's book um and you know
just everyone's story that's theonly thing that we can do not
the only thing it's one of themost important things that we
can do to help people get out ofScientology.
That's right.
(50:24):
It's one of the most importantthings that we can do and you're
doing you know the work on theground to help people get out to
give them the support that theyneed um they're getting
everything that they need youknow they're getting a home
they're getting an educationthey're you know finding friends
finding a job all of thosethings that you know they
wouldn't be able to do on theirown and so it's so so so
(50:47):
important and part of that isbecause at 16 I was told to join
I was strong armed told that Ishould join the Sea Org and I
was ready.
I was going to and I am sograteful that you didn't let me
just say that you and I both andluckily my mom for everything
that I was angry with her aboutyou know she helped me dodge a
(51:09):
bullet and she wasn't going toallow me to um and she also yeah
yeah so that's that's that youknow the reason also is that
that could have been my life andso that's one way to help people
um that sadly that became theirlife you know and to help them
get out.
SPEAKER_04 (51:24):
Yes no absolutely and so when what what was the
release date for your book?
It was August 31st yeah nice andwhat has the response been like
so far?
SPEAKER_03 (51:37):
The response um I have the good story yeah so it's
been good I have been doing someauthor events um at some
different bookstores I have onethis um weekend locally at a
local bookstore and then I'mgonna be going up to Portland
for another one at a bookstorebut I did a book festival I went
to a book festival and it was asmall one but it was really
(51:58):
interesting.
And so you know I had that signthat you showed and my story and
everything and so I had my tablewith all my books.
And so people would walk by andthey'd kind of read it they'd
look and then they'd eitherraise their eyebrows a little
and look at me and then they'deither come up to my table and
want to know more or they'd walkaway.
And so I really realized who myreaders are or the kind of
(52:22):
people that are interested youknow and are are brave enough to
come up and ask and to talk.
And so when I would talk topeople you know I'd say give me
questions and so you know theymight ask me about my story.
And then I would sometimes startwith well what do you know about
Scientology?
And every single person Clairehad a story that was not
(52:42):
positive.
Every single person there wasn'tone person who came up and said
oh yeah I've heard good thingsno one said that I I've had the
same experience literally soyeah I can absolutely relate and
so let me ask you so if a readertakes one core message from your
book what do you hope that is sothis may sound strange but I I
(53:10):
want to say hope I want to sayhope in that there is hope for
people that were involved inScientology like myself and
others um and I want them toalso take away that I was able
to get to forgiveness becausewithout the hope and without the
(53:31):
forgiveness you're just stuck inanger.
Yeah and I didn't want to bestuck in anger I'd been stuck in
anger my whole life and so I didnot want to stay in that place
because that's not a healthyplace.
So um the other maybe message isit's a hard read but it's a good
read.
That's what everybody says tome.
SPEAKER_04 (53:49):
I completely agree.
SPEAKER_03 (53:52):
And and it's it's told I almost put a trigger
warning on it because of thesexual abuse piece but um I it's
told in a way that um I think isis not too intrusive in and that
you'll be able to read it ifthat's something that you know
is bothersome to you.
(54:13):
I've had many people that haveread it and said you know that
was hard for me to read but Ireally like the way that you
know you you shared it.
SPEAKER_04 (54:20):
Yes I completely agree.
And and and speaking of hopewhat brings you hope today and
and where do you find joy now?
SPEAKER_03 (54:29):
Ooh such good questions wow um joy and hope um
well I have grandchildren and somy grandchildren bring me great
joy you know they they reallybring me joy that next
generation and um they'rethey're just so important to me.
I think hope yeah I think hopewhat brings me hope is that I
(54:54):
see through the work of theaftermath I see through what I
follow about Scientology that itis diminishing and that the
numbers are waning and thatpeople are so aware now of that
the fact that it's a cult.
Right.
Right and not you know whenpeople talk about you know
(55:15):
religion it's like and peoplehave even said that to me and I
I started saying first I was a aum survivor of the church of
Scientology and now I startedsaying I'm a survivor of the
cult of Scientology.
Right.
Because it wasn't it's not achurch.
And so I think people are soaware of that and that that
brings me hope that less andless young people will get
involved in it.
(55:35):
And you know what I have notenjoyed about this whole journey
is social media I will tell youthat.
And so I'm on social mediabecause it's the way to get the
message out.
Yeah um but I'm not comfortablewith it.
But through social media that'sthe way to get to young people
that's the way to get to peopleto share message you know and to
get it out there because that'swhat they're looking at.
(55:57):
And so if young people arelooking at it I'm so hopeful
that they will not get involvedand that they will see it for
what it is.
SPEAKER_04 (56:05):
Yes I I couldn't agree with you more.
I personally um obviously birthto 30 was my life in Scientology
and I I came when once I escapedI came to realize the power of
labels within Scientology.
So you know I had a big fear ofbecoming a suppressive person
(56:27):
and being disconnected from myfamily all of which of course
happened but I came to realizefrom the outside and on
reflection the only power inthose labels is the power I give
them.
And so I couldn't agree with youmore on yes it is not a church
of Scientology.
(56:47):
It is the cult of Scientology ifyou look at there are so many
books on people's storiesthere's the um Bite model from
Dr.
SPEAKER_03 (56:56):
Stephen Hassan you know there are just so many
studies on this um so power toyou for naming it as it is and
that is one of the things thatum has really been exciting to
see with the aftermath is thatbringing on people that you know
(57:17):
know about cults and like yousaid naming it and saying yeah
Scientology is that kind of acult.
You know it falls into thatcategory and educating the
public you know and as aneducator I mean I think that's
that's the most powerful waythat you can get the message
out.
SPEAKER_04 (57:32):
Yes very much so awesome well um we're about to
hit our hour for today uh thankyou so very much for your time I
guess my last question for youis what's next?
SPEAKER_03 (57:43):
What's next?
I know um I have another book inme it's not a Scientology book
but um I sort of embracedwriting and so I'm I'm speaking
that truth now I I've said it acouple of times so I think it's
something I'm gonna have to doum I am also going to I've been
an educator a lifelong educatorand I am finally going to retire
(58:06):
I've decided I'm I'm going to bedone I'm gonna hang up that
educator hat.
Yeah um you're always aneducator though you know when
you go that route but I'm gonnahang that up for a while and
just you know pursue some otherthings.
So I'm I'm just thankful thatthis journey has ended and it's
not even ended, has wound thisway, you know and kind of seeing
(58:26):
what else what else happens andhoping to get the message out
more and more you know justkeeping it going and whatever I
can do to support that.
SPEAKER_04 (58:35):
Awesome.
Well thank you again for your umsharing your book with us as I
said I will link to um the allthe different places to purchase
the book and the links that youprovided so to anyone watching I
highly recommend getting a copyof Pamela's book and reading it.
SPEAKER_00 (58:53):
Thank you Claire and thank you for reading it yes of
course you talid you liked theaudible that seems so uh great
no you did a really good job I Iwas impressed you you truly so
awesome well thank you everyonefor tuning in today thank you
Pamela for joining us and wewill see you soon all right
thank you Claire thanks forhaving me thank you thanks for
(59:17):
watching if you'd like to helpsupport the channel feel free to
check out the merch store linkin the description we have hail
Zenu Xinu is my homeboy and BFGbranded mouse pads shirts mugs
all sorts of other stuff inthere that helps us to bring you
new content on a regular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book Lone for Good behind the
(59:39):
Iron Curtain of Scientology inhardback Kindle and Audible
version as well there's also alink to our podcast and you can
get that on Apple Spotify orwherever you look at the podcast
and if you'd like to watchanother video you can click on
this link right here or you canclick on this one here Or you
(01:00:00):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot until next time.
Hello and welcome back to the channel.
Blown for good, ScientologyExposed.
I'm your host for today, ClaireHeadley.
And uh this is another episodeof Scientology Stories, in which
I will be interviewing authorPamela Nicole Williams, um, who
recently released Clearly LiesAre True.
(00:46):
Let me bring Pamela on and makesure I got that right.
Welcome, Pamela.
Hi, Claire.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
So great to be here.
Thank you.
You got it all right.
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (00:55):
Perfect.
All right.
And so so grateful to have thisopportunity to meet you and talk
with you.
Um, I I really appreciate thatyou shared your book with me um
ahead of your release.
Um, and so I I read the firsthalf and then I listened to your
audible book for the secondhalf.
Um, you did a really good job onthe Audible book, by the way.
SPEAKER_03 (01:19):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:20):
Yes, absolutely.
So why don't we start with umfor our viewers today who may
not know who you are and yourand your story, can you give me
an overview of um your ex youruh what led you to writing this
book?
SPEAKER_03 (01:37):
What led me to writing it?
Okay.
Oh gosh, it was such a longjourney, but in a nutshell, um I
had a traumatic event happenabout 15 years ago that
activated um some memories.
And so my book is about myScientology experiences that I
had kind of buried.
I had, you know, glimmers ofthem and I shut the door on
(01:59):
Scientology and lived my life.
And then I had some repressedmemories of sexual abuse that
started to pop up.
And so that was the impetus forwriting.
I started journaling, I startedjust trying to get it out.
I didn't know what to do withall of it.
Um, and it was pretty scary.
And I, as I wrote, I realizedthat I had a Scientology
(02:21):
chronology that I really hadnever thought about in the big
picture in the history ofScientology.
You know, I'd really shut thedoor on that once um I left as a
teenager and moved on and reallynever wanted to revisit that
part of my life at all.
SPEAKER_04 (02:37):
Which I will say is not an unusual reaction to um
childhood experiences inScientology.
Um, in my case, I was you knowborn and raised in Scientology.
My mom was in the C organizationstarting when I was four years
old.
And I never spoke with myhusband about any of the he
(02:58):
didn't even know I was in thecadet organization until after
we escaped.
SPEAKER_03 (03:04):
Yeah.
So you within the ranks ofScientology, you didn't talk
about it.
Say that again.
I said, even within the ranks ofScientology, you didn't talk
about it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:13):
No, even more so.
Like it's best not just to notsay anything.
If you have nothing, Mark alwaysjokes that his mom would tell
him, if you have nothing good tosay, don't say anything at all.
Uh that's very much true foranyone who you know had
childhood experiences inScientology.
But what was fascinating to meabout your story, and I'd love
(03:34):
for you to give your perspectiveon this, but your parents got
into Scientology before you wereborn, correct?
SPEAKER_03 (03:41):
Correct.
So my dad dabbled with umDianetics at the Wichita
Dianetics Foundation because helived um in Kansas.
And so that's where hediscovered L.
Ron Hubbard's um theories andbeliefs.
And so when he met my mom, mymom was not a Scientologist,
didn't know anything about it.
(04:01):
And so um he got her involved.
And once Hubbard left and wentto DC, to Washington, D.C., um,
because everything fell apart atthe Dianetics Foundation, um, he
had financial issues.
Um, my dad wanted them to followEl Ron Hubbard, and so they
moved to Washington, D.C.
(04:22):
And they worked closely with himand with Mary Sue at the very
beginning of Scientology, theHubbard Association of
Scientologists, and they wereactive in the Congresses, and
you know, I really didn't knowall that either, Claire.
I had to do that research when Istarted writing my story to kind
of figure out like they didn'ttalk about that a little bit,
but I really didn't know, youknow, exactly what happened and
(04:43):
um how involved they were.
So I, my mom was pregnant um atthe same time that Mary Sue was
pregnant with Arthur Hubbard.
So Arthur Hubbard and I are thesame age, although I think she
was born in June and I'm born inNovember.
SPEAKER_04 (04:57):
Wow.
So, and and again, just forcontext for people listening,
we're talking about the veryearly beginning days of
dianetics and Scientology,correct?
SPEAKER_03 (05:08):
Correct, correct, yes.
So 1957 to 1959, my parents werein Washington, D.C., um, working
side by side with Elwyn Hebertand other Scientologists.
And, you know, whenever I talkabout it, I I liken it to like
it felt grassroots, I think, atthe time.
But like my mom always, youknow, I think she enjoyed it.
You know, I never heardnegatives about that period of
(05:31):
time.
And they had friends, and youknow, it was um very um
analytical.
And my mom was, you know, veryanalytical and loved all that.
And, you know, pop nobbingduring that period of time, it
was almost the 60s, you know,the late 50s.
And it felt um, I don't want tosay new age, but kind of, you
know, at that time, at thatperiod of time, it felt
(05:53):
exciting.
You know, it was definitelyagainst um Christianity that she
and my dad had been raised in.
So it was something new andexciting for them, a new way of
thinking.
SPEAKER_04 (06:04):
That makes sense.
Um, and so let me ask you.
So your title, Clearly Lies AreTrue, is is striking.
And I wanted to hear from you,what does that represent to you?
SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
Gosh, that's a great question.
I don't know if I've had thatone yet.
Um let's see.
Well, you know, as a writer, andI now can say that, I can own
it.
I'm a writer and I'm an author.
Um, that was really hard for meto own for a very long time,
even through the whole process.
Um, even when I got the book inthe mail, I didn't, I didn't own
(06:37):
it.
Um to me that that title came tome.
I I had many working titles.
And throughout the writingjourney, that title came to me
and I wrote it down and itstuck.
I kept revisiting it and I keptthinking, you know, should it it
(06:59):
had to have something to do withclear?
SPEAKER_04 (07:01):
Because I knew I wanted to bring in that about,
you know, because you becomeclear in Scientology, and that's
you know the state of clearthat's outlined in Dianetics,
which I would imagine was a bigpart of what your father was
initially perhaps interested in.
SPEAKER_03 (07:18):
Very much so, very much so.
So um, so he was one of theoriginal clears um back in DC.
So there are about 15 of them,and I found that, and that was
really interesting to me becausehe always wore his clear
bracelet and he told me thestory of it, but I really didn't
get the significance of all ofthat, you know, as as a child.
(07:40):
And so that clear piece, andthen, you know, clearly the lies
in Scientology are true, peoplebelieve them.
Like, and so, you know, it'sthat that truth versus lies, and
and who's to say which is which.
SPEAKER_04 (07:55):
Right.
Did do you by chance know yourfather's clear number?
I'm curious.
SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
Oh gosh.
Um, I know my mom's, it's 700.
Um it's in the book, yeah.
I wonder do I know it?
I don't think it was it becausethere's there's two different,
so I don't know his second clearnumber because you know those
first clears, those first 15clears, ended up being, you
know, in Scientology you'd sayinvalidated.
(08:21):
They ended up not being, youknow, the true clear because of
course they came out with morethings you had to do to become
clear.
Yes, more auditing you had to beinvolved in, you know, to become
clear.
So I know that he did all ofthat, but I don't know.
I want to say it's in the 400s.
SPEAKER_04 (08:39):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Either way, the point remainsthere.
Very early days Scientologists.
And and so at what point in yourchildhood did you like how old
were you, let's say, when yourealized that your parents were
involved in this mysteriousorganization known as
Scientology?
SPEAKER_03 (09:00):
That's another really good question.
I don't think it became I don'tthink I really understood it as
Scientology until we went to St.
Hill.
So, you know, as a child, Imean, you know, I knew that we
spoke differently.
My parents believed differentthings.
I mean, I, you know, you learnearly on as a kid how to hide
(09:22):
the things you don't want yourfriends to know about.
SPEAKER_04 (09:24):
For sure.
100%.
SPEAKER_03 (09:28):
And so I always knew that, like, okay, this is
something that like only happensin my house.
I don't see that happening, youknow, in friends' homes.
It's it's different.
Um, but when we went to St.
Hill, so that was in 66, 67, mymom packed um me and my little
brother up.
So we were at like nine andfour.
(09:49):
And she went to Saint Hill.
And you know, I remember flying.
SPEAKER_04 (09:52):
And of course, for anyone listening, just to say
Saint Hill is the Scientologyheadquarters in England.
Um, and and it again, that'swhere there are so many
parallels that I could relate toin your book because my my my
mother joined the seaorganization at Saint Hill in
1979.
(10:13):
So when I was four years old,that's when when I went there.
So you talked about TempridgeWells, and I was like, Oh yeah,
those my my old digs.
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
Yeah, just for the 10-year difference.
Really?
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
Yes, exactly.
But go ahead.
So you were talking about whenyou arrived at St.
Hill and you're nine years old.
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
So then I realized that there were more people like
my parents because it was allScientologists at the Harewood
Hotel in Tunbridge Wells, youknow, where we stayed.
And so, you know, that's that'swho we were around all the time.
That's so the only people that,you know, I saw my mom talking
to that were at the hotel, youknow, she got in the van to get
driven to St.
(10:55):
Hill, you know, in the morningand then, you know, came back at
night.
And um I I realized then that,oh, like there's a a lot of
these, you know, people thatthat believe this.
Um, and then we went to some umchild care in England for a
short period of time when wewere, uh my mom was at St.
Hill, and there was a little boythere who was South African and
(11:18):
he from South Africa and hisparents were Scientologists, and
that's how my mom, you know,found out about that daycare.
Although the woman who took careof us was not.
Yeah, she didn't have anythingto do with it.
Um, and then, you know, ofcourse, when we got on the ship,
so that's another part of mystory, is that um we got on the
Royal Scotman before it becamethe Apollo, which was the
(11:41):
Scientology Sea Org ship.
So at the very beginning of theC project, so before it even
became the C organization.
And, you know, it's it'sHubbard's L.
Ryan Hubbard's story of, youknow, he left DC, he went to the
UK fleeing, you know, taxes,then he had to buy a ship to go
to the Mediterranean to flee,you know, more taxes, and you
(12:01):
know, to keep hiding and to keepbeing able to make money, you
know, without being taxed.
So we followed that.
And I'm I really I never askedmy mother the why, and that's a
regret that I wish, you know, Ihave a lot of regrets about that
of with our relationship, butthat I I wish I knew I knew why.
Why did we get on that ship?
You know, what was going on?
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
So it was, and it was the very beginning.
So there was the crew that were,you know, brought on and they
were all Scientologists, andthen there were the public.
And so that was my mom and mylittle brother and I, and a
bunch of other public people.
And so they were givenScientology auditing and and I
don't know if maybe traininghappened too.
I'm not really sure.
SPEAKER_04 (12:44):
Right.
And that that was something thatsurprised me because I didn't, I
had I just hadn't personallyrealized that children of
civilian Scientologists evenwere brought onto that ship in
the very early days.
As you said, before even therewas a C organization or a
billion-year contract or all ofthat.
It was my mind-boggling to me toknow that um there's just
(13:10):
decades and decades of the sametreatment of children that's
been going on since the get-go.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
unknown (13:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
And that's a good point.
Um, I think I don't want to sayspared.
I mean, the really horriblethings, you know, with being put
in chain lockers and peoplejumping overboard and all of
that was not happening, luckily,when we were on the ship.
Um, you know, it happened after.
But and I think also because ofit being the very beginning, and
(13:45):
the Hubbard children were on theship.
So that, you know, they left St.
Hill, and then that was theirnew home.
And so Mary Sue, Hubbard's wife,decided that, you know, the
children were gonna still begetting their education.
You know, this was their newhome, and so they needed to
still have an education.
And so there was a tutor, SylviaHare, and she was a
Scientologist, and she wasbrought on board to tutor.
(14:08):
And so we were there with theHubbard kids and other kids.
So we had this like kind ofstrange routine in that there
was the nursery where we werekept with other kids.
Um, but we had this nanny thatwas not very nice to us, who was
a Scientologist.
And, you know, kids were just umthey were expendable, you know,
(14:29):
they were not really um, therewasn't a place for them.
There really wasn't a place forthem.
SPEAKER_04 (14:34):
And even I'm very definitely not a priority.
SPEAKER_03 (14:39):
Definitely not a priority.
Yeah, definitely not a priority.
And so, you know, we we I wentto school with them, I was
tutored with them, and then wewere in the the nursery, and I
helped take care of other littlekids there.
There was a little baby we usedto take care of.
And I remember um I write aboutone incident.
(14:59):
Um, maybe this speaks to justthe conditions on the ship at
that time.
Because they weren't allowed togo into port in any of the
Mediterranean ports, they werejust not letting them in.
Um, they had no provisions.
So they had stocked atSouthampton, you know, stock
provisions, and then it tookthem several different ports
(15:22):
until they were finally let in.
We were let in at Valencia inSpain.
And so food was becoming scarce,and you know, it's been
documented in there.
And that was really interestingto me to read about that history
too, because I have this veryclear memory of being served
tongue.
SPEAKER_04 (15:40):
Oh, yes, I do remember that that part of your
story.
I was like, oh gosh, I wouldhave reacted the same way you
did, like, no thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (15:48):
But it was like that's all that was left were
these, you know, and and thenthis watery soup that they would
serve.
So, you know, conditions werenot good for anyone, definitely,
you know, for children as well.
But I learned a lot about thatperiod of time too from talking
to Janice Gillam Grady, youknow, and her experiences as the
Commodore's messenger and andwhen she boarded the ship.
(16:11):
Um, it was really the coming andthe going.
So we were going, civilians wereoffboarded, and the coming was
this was the real seaorganization.
SPEAKER_04 (16:20):
Wow.
So were you on the ship at thesame time as Janice, or you're
there.
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_03 (16:28):
I always say we were ships in the night.
Yeah.
We were because she she went on,she's a couple of years older
than I am, and so she was theone who actually helped me with
that timeline.
Is that we were offboarded inright before January, so in
December, and then they wereonboarded in January.
SPEAKER_04 (16:47):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
So literally, literally, literally just missed
each other.
And when I um had gone on her umchannel, she showed me some
pictures of the ship, and thatwas so cool.
And that I remember like of theship when she was on there, and
there was the room where we weretutored, and I said, Oh my god,
that's the room.
SPEAKER_04 (17:11):
Wow, that's that's crazy to come full circle like
that.
SPEAKER_03 (17:15):
Yeah.
But you know, think aboutputting children or families or
anybody in an old, you know,cattle ship that's really not
even been renovated that well,you know, is just not a good
idea.
SPEAKER_04 (17:27):
No, definitely not.
So, how long were you on theRoyal Scotman?
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
So we were on from November, the Maiden Voyage,
until that December when we wereoffboarded.
Yeah, when we left off, yeah.
So I'm not sure exactly um, youknow, the date on in December.
I mean, I know the maiden voyagedate, so it was pretty close to
that.
SPEAKER_04 (17:53):
Okay.
So about a month give or take.
SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
Month and a half, yeah, yeah.
And I think that was really umsomething that my mom didn't
know was going to happen, butwas fortuitous for all of us.
SPEAKER_04 (18:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:08):
Because I think she may have been given the choice
to stay on, but without us.
SPEAKER_04 (18:15):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03 (18:16):
Because children, you know, we're not gonna be on
the ship.
SPEAKER_04 (18:19):
Yeah.
But did but so so you madereference to being tutored with
the Hubbard children.
Did they stay on the ship orwere they also then removed from
the ship?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
I don't know, but I think they were still on the
ship.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
I think so.
SPEAKER_03 (18:36):
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure because Iremember when I was at um
Celebrity Center, which is partof my story, you know, in the
70s, um, the very originalcelebrity center that Yvonne
Gillum Gents um started.
unknown (18:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
And um Quentin Hubbard came to visit.
He did a like it was uh anevent, and he was sick.
SPEAKER_04 (18:58):
And Quentin was Hubbard's oldest son or not his
oldest?
SPEAKER_03 (19:04):
Yes, well, except for his, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:07):
It was aside from the the Hubbard, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, he was the oldsecond wife he never had, or
whatever.
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
So there was Diana Quentin, Suzanne, and then yeah,
yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:23):
And of course, I worked with Diana at the
headquarters for many years.
I was I was at Rowan, herdaughter, El Ron Hubbard's
granddaughter's wedding.
Rowan is a very good friend ofours, anyway.
It's just it's just crazy.
There are so many interactions,but and we'll get to some of
those later too.
But so circling back, youmentioned your father had read
(19:47):
Dianetics in the very earlydays.
Do you know how he gotintroduced to it?
Like, did he just find you know,buy the book of the bookstore,
or was there a person thatintroduced him?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (20:01):
I don't know if there was a person, but I know
that he was a big sci-fi reader.
SPEAKER_04 (20:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
So, you know, that's my connection with it in that he
was reading astounding sciencefiction, you know, that Hubbard
was writing.
And so I think that he got drawninto it that way because he was
always very interested in that.
SPEAKER_04 (20:19):
Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
But I don't know.
There might have been a personas well.
Yeah, but I don't know.
Like I said, those are theunanswered questions that I
always regret that I didn't haveenough time with my parents to
ask those questions.
SPEAKER_04 (20:32):
Yeah.
And and just to say, I am sosorry for uh you being a victim
of child essay and everythingthat you outlined.
I I really appreciate yourbravery and courage in sharing
you those parts of your story,especially, but also just your
entire Scientology story.
I think I personally believethat every voice matters and is
(20:55):
important.
So thank you for doing this.
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
Yeah, thank you, Claire.
Um, like I said, I didn't startout to do it.
I didn't start out to do it, andI just was trying to figure it
out and to get everything out ofmy my head onto paper.
And the more I wrote, then Irealized there's a story here.
And I started to see thoseparallels and I started to do so
much research about.
(21:19):
I mean, I started, you know,dabbling into um, you know, the
internet, and it was at theperiod of time when I was
writing that Leah Remney cameout also, and I thought, oh my
gosh, like people are startingto speak out about it.
Like that was really not thehistory of Scientology.
You know, you just kept quiet,right?
And it was underground.
(21:40):
Like, you know, there was TonyOrtega's blog and you know, and
his website, you know, which Iperused, and Clam Bake and all
those different ones, and juststarted digging and reading
stories and you know, readingFairfaced Messiah and reading
people's other people's memoirs.
I read Jesse Prince's, I read,you know, so many, just to try
(22:01):
to figure out, you know, how didthis fit into the story?
And then I realized, okay, thereis a story here.
And um, but people saycourageous.
I I don't feel courageous, Ijust feel like I was compelled
in that it was the only way Iwas gonna get better.
SPEAKER_04 (22:20):
Yes, though I will say I'm a firm believer that
courage is feeling fear anddoing it and face doing it or
facing it anyway.
You know, I I feel the same waywhen someone says, Oh, you're so
courageous.
I'm like, Well, I wouldn'treally use that word, but when I
saw that meaning of it, that'sto me where I say it is
courageous.
SPEAKER_02 (22:41):
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (22:44):
It's not that easy, you know.
It's I think the sexual abusepiece was really um one of the
harder things, and to try tomake sense of that.
Um, and to accept that theacceptance, but you know,
because it's when you leave acult, it's accepting that you
had beliefs or that youconnected with beliefs that were
(23:04):
somewhat crazy, you know, andthat you have to rethink all
that and and realize that youknow you were not crazy, it was
what was going on was crazy,right?
Right, completely right, and sowith sexual abuse, um, it's
accepting that that reallyhappened to you and being able
to speak about it.
And what I found is that um it'snot comfortable for a lot of
(23:27):
people.
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:28):
You know, talking about Scientology is
uncomfortable for a lot ofpeople, and talking about sexual
abuse isn't comfortable for alot of people.
So yeah, it's it's not foreverybody to to hear these
stories.
SPEAKER_04 (23:39):
Yeah, though, uh yes, you're you're absolutely
right.
Though it is like you said, it'sempowering to take back your
voice and share your experiencesand you know, let that let that
all out.
unknown (23:53):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (23:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So okay, so circling back, um sofor from your perspective, what
are your earliest Scientologymemories?
unknown (24:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:08):
My earliest Scientology memories are
probably of getting a touchassist as a little kid.
So, you know, the touch assistis the the faith healing laying
on of the hands in Scientology.
Um, you know, and if you felldown and skinned your knee, you
know, you'd get a touch assist,or if you had a fever, you know,
you'd get a touch assist.
And um it's not a bad memory.
(24:29):
It's just um, you know, it it'sit's like that's how my family
dealt with if you were sick.
SPEAKER_04 (24:35):
Right.
Yep, I can definitely relatethere.
I can remember as a very youngchild, so yes, there were touch
assists, and then there was alsothe contact assist, where when
you hurt yourself, you have toput it back and release the
moment of pain.
And I was I was as a child, andI'm curious to hear your
perspective on the assist thatyou experienced.
(24:57):
But for me, I was like, hey, Ijust I just hit my let's say my
hand on the desk.
Why would I now go touch it backover and over and over again?
It was it was just a rejectionthat I could never voice.
SPEAKER_03 (25:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Gosh, you know, I had not eventhought about that one, Claire.
You're bringing back a memory.
I think that happened when I wasriding my bike and I fell off,
and now, yeah, and I had to likere-replay the fall.
SPEAKER_04 (25:30):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
Right, you had to replay the fall.
And I remember thinking at thetime, like, I just want to get
up and go home.
Like, I don't want to, you know,I don't want to keep falling
down.
Right.
Um, yeah, and you know, luckily,these were not um serious
injuries.
SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
You know, thankfully, when I did have a
serious injury, you know, myparents did um take me to the
doctor.
I cut my leg open and had tohave, you know, stitches and
things like that.
So um I remember a touch assistas well, but I was at least
taken to the doctor and youknow, stitches were put in.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
Yeah, that's yeah, that's good.
Yeah, I've had mixed experiencesin my childhood on that
department, but um yeah, and sookay, so that was your earliest
memories.
And so let me ask you, what wasthe first course, like training
that you ever did inScientology?
And how old were you?
unknown (26:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
So I did take a communication course at St.
Hill.
I have the certificate.
I cannot, for the life of me,remember it.
I don't know why.
But um, I remember going likewith my mom to St.
Hill a couple of times, and Idon't, but I don't remember like
what we did.
But I have a couple of those.
(26:46):
I have the communication coursecertificate, and I have the ARC
something training certificate,affinity reality communication,
whatever it was we did there.
So I don't have good memories ofthose, but I have the
certificates.
But my very earliest memorieswould be when I was a teenager,
when I started volunteering atCelebrity Center.
(27:08):
And so I was kind of voluntoleto go because my parents, um,
it's part of my story, um, bothof them um had some health
issues, and so they were nolonger participating in
Scientology, and you know,really they were no longer
giving money to Scientology, andso they really weren't important
to Scientology anymore.
(27:28):
So they needed fresh blood.
So I was voluntold and I startedat Celebrity Center just
volunteering, and then I startedtaking courses.
So I would say it was again thecommunication course, the TRs.
SPEAKER_04 (27:42):
So that's where I the training routines.
And and just do you rememberdoing those drills as a as a
teenager?
SPEAKER_03 (27:51):
I do.
I do remember doing thosedrills.
So it was the, you know, dobirds fly, do fish swim, it was
all of those crazy things.
And I remember as a teenager, soone of the the things I write
about in my story too is that,you know, even though it was
celebrity center and they werebringing in celebrities, they
still did what Scientology umtells you to do, which is you
bring in people who have ruins,right?
(28:13):
Which is there's things that youknow are wrong with them.
You're basically just pullingpeople off the street and giving
them the personality test andthen saying, okay, here it is.
This is the thing that's wrongwith you, and this is what you
need to sign up for.
SPEAKER_04 (28:25):
And Scientology can help you with that.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (28:28):
And Scientology can fix that, right?
SPEAKER_04 (28:30):
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
Yes, sorry, go ahead.
You pay a lot of money and uhspend a lot of time.
But there was a man who was um,you know, and it was downtown
Los Angeles, so it wasn't in agreat area of town, and so there
were people walking by all thetime.
So this man who was blind wasbrought in, and he was probably
(28:52):
given the personality test, andhe was signed up, and he was the
person that I was running theTRs with.
And it was a very strangeexperience.
It was, I don't want to sayscary because I don't remember
feeling scared, but I rememberjust thinking, I've never looked
(29:13):
at a blind person's eyes beforebecause they didn't have
sunglasses on, or you know, Iremember thinking, I'm I don't
know why he's not wearingglasses, like maybe they told
him to take his glasses off.
I don't even know.
But running those drills withhim and thinking to myself as a
teenager, this is really doesn'tmake any sense.
SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
But you couldn't say that.
You know, you you couldn't youcouldn't say anything like that.
You had to just do it.
And I remember thinking, like,what does it have to do with
like communication?
SPEAKER_04 (29:43):
Right.
Yeah, makes sense.
Um and so you were what age whatfrom when you were at celebrity
center now?
SPEAKER_03 (29:54):
So I started at 13.
So to me, uh, you know, it was adeciding to go there because you
know I was a teenager.
Um I didn't want to be at home.
You know, my parents were, mydad was um disabled, um, and my
mom was agoraphobic, and it wasnot a fun place to be.
(30:15):
And so any place besides homewas good.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (30:18):
You know, and I I liked going.
And you know, it was all adultstoo.
And I've talked about thisbefore where, you know, as a
child in Scientology, as a, youknow, and I was a child who was
13, um, 13 to like 15 and then16 when I left.
Um you're viewed as an adult.
Right.
(30:38):
Because in Scientology theybelieve that you are a Thaytan
who is, I don't know, I say likea soul, but it's not like a
soul.
It's somebody who's livedmillions and millions and
millions of lives.
You know, it's like you'reyou're infinite.
And so this is one of yourlives.
And so you just happen to be,you know, this Thetan and it's a
very young body.
But you've been all kinds ofpeople before this.
(31:01):
And so they view you as anequal.
Right.
And that was really heavy.
I liked that.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
Yeah.
And so speaking about your timeat Celebrity Center, another uh
parallel you were talking aboutRay Midoff and Gelda.
And um so again I worked withboth Ray and Gelda at the
headquarters for many yearsuntil um until I escaped Ray I'm
(31:32):
sure is if he's still alive isin the hole um banished off of
all management lines ofScientology.
But interestingly I was 16 yearsold when I arrived at the
headquarters and Gelda became mylegal guardian.
What my parents signed overguardianship of me uh because I
(31:55):
had to have a legal guardian atthat property.
So I had never met her when thathappened but she she was my my
senior my boss and also myguardian wow yeah it's crazy
right that is crazy.
Yeah so your your description ofGelda exactly matched it it you
(32:16):
know I mean it was 20 years 20some I mean I so it was a long
time later.
Now I'm talking 1991 1992 iswhen I met Gelda when I arrived
at that property but it was justagain like I said the the worst
things that I could relate toand people that you mentioned
that I'm like oh yeah yeah yeahso was she a good mom no no no
(32:44):
that's my guess yeah yeah umyeah it's so funny so funny yeah
I can't even believe thatbecause she was older than Ray.
SPEAKER_03 (32:53):
Yeah yeah and older Ray and you know um it it's one
thing that um you know I didn'tput his last name I I did
originally have his last name inthe book and then when I was
working with my editor andeverything and I said you know
I'm gonna take it out I don'tknow I don't want any
repercussions because of thatbut you know everybody I've
(33:13):
talked to about him it's likeyeah he's probably still there
and I remember I asked someone Isaid why do you think he never
left I mean he seemed like agood guy like you know he he did
not seem and those were myfeelings you know at the time
that he just you know he had ahe had an altruistic purpose
yeah yeah sadly he is the firstperson that I personally
(33:38):
witnessed David Miscavigephysically assault in March of
1996 and as to why he's stillthere I think he he probably on
some level does truly believelike you know there are people
in the upper levels ofScientology there's two
categories of people there thereare people there to wield power
(34:01):
and control and there are peoplethere who really believe in
Hubbard and then there arepeople there who are just there
by default and don't want tolose their families and
everything else I think I Ithink of anybody I think Ray and
Shelly Miscavige both were truebelievers like they had drunk
(34:24):
the Kool-Aid that's just mypersonal perspective yeah that's
what someone else told me aswell yeah for both of those
people yeah I've heard that forboth of those people so um it's
very sad it's very very very sadand um it speaks to you know it
speaks to the cult you knownature of Scientology it speaks
(34:48):
to you know the coercive tacticsit speaks to the abuse like you
said he's still abused and stillstays um I think also it speaks
to that longevity that there'sprobably and I don't want to say
like a sweet spot but there'slike a time when you're you're
kind of like okay I could leaveI mean you left you know and I
know and other people left butit's like you know Ray's old now
(35:13):
you know in his 70s and you knoware you gonna leave?
What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_04 (35:19):
Right and and after so many years of isolation and
you know just being in acomplete bubble if you will um
like and feeling stuck in abubble it can be very very hard
but it is never too late.
That's that's the upside so youknow um but but it nonetheless
(35:40):
it's um very challenging I'veheard it likened to the sunk
cost fallacy um but on anemotional and even time
perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
So not sunk cost fallacy is usually money, stock
market and so forth but if youtranslate that into well how
hard is it when you've been in acult for 30 40 50 years to wake
up and and acknowledge toyourself that this was a huge
(36:11):
mistake right exactly yeah yeahexactly and and that is a very
very difficult thing to do avery difficult thing I mean it
was difficult enough to speakout you know as you have and as
I have and everybody else whohas because you are you're
questioning that part of yourlife you know and you're saying
(36:34):
I mean and I didn't have a lotof choice you didn't have a lot
of choice either you know we wewere God we became
Scientologists because of ourparents right um but even for my
my mother when she left and youknow eventually she was able to
um whenever she spoke of it andmaybe that makes a lot of sense
(36:55):
now she spoke of it in a waythat like not fondly but as if
it was okay you know just tomake probably herself not think
what a waste of time.
SPEAKER_04 (37:07):
Right yeah I mean I would love to hear your thoughts
on this personally sorry noworries personally uh having
gotten out of Scientology andnow having children that was for
me one of the hugest wake upcalls to actually confront and
(37:30):
face what I experienced as achild the trauma I went through
and everything else because whenyou have children of your own
all of a sudden for and againI'm speaking from my perspective
not speaking for you of coursebut um you know at every
milestone I would reflect on wowthat's like when my oldest son
(37:51):
turned four years old I'm likewow that's the age I was when my
mother abandoned me to the cadetorganization I'm curious what
your experience was with that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
Yeah very much the same very much the same even
though I'd shut the door on it Imean you know when you said you
hadn't even told you know yourhusband um I had told my husband
very very little he knew alittle bit about it but I I
didn't talk about it you knowand once I got married and you
know we started a family I meanI definitely never talked about
it but those memories would comeup and I didn't really I didn't
(38:26):
even realize why like I getanxious or nervous or you know
part of it was the sexual abuseyou know when my children were
the same age as I was when I wassexually abused but also those
milestone experiences so like onthe ship you know at nine years
old when we you know went thereand then at 13 you know when I
when I got involved withScientology.
(38:48):
But even as a younger child likethinking um wow yeah that's that
we my mom took us on a plane youknow and took us all the way to
England and then dumped us in ahotel room and went to St.
Hill and did training andauditing and then went on a ship
and you know barely ever saw usand like who would do that right
(39:08):
yeah it it just was you knowunfathomable to think that
that's how you would parent butI don't know about you I made
the decision um very clearly tomyself that I was never going to
parent the way that my parentshad oh I mean 100% 100% like it
was like this the minute I gotout of it I'm like nope we are
(39:31):
not doing that.
Did did those experiences causeany latent anger towards your
parents oh yes oh yes um so mymom and I you know we never um
we had a very interestingrelationship um and you know
sadly she passed um years agoyou know she she passed when I
(39:54):
was 38 years old I mean my daddied when I was 19 so both of my
parents died early um so Ididn't really have that
opportunity to heal with themwhich I do I do regret um I
don't know if I would havehappened had they still been
living I don't know you know butI think it might have been an
opportunity so I was very angrywith my mother for most of my
(40:17):
life yes very angry with her butI didn't really know why I was
so mad at her.
And a lot of that had to do withthe sexual abuse and that um she
learned of it and then shedidn't do anything about it and
so it went underground.
But as a sexual abuse survivor Ilearned that sometimes you align
(40:38):
with the perpetrator and so Iwas always um on my dad's side
you know and not my mom's sidewhich was so crazy you know
thinking about it now after whatI know about the abuse.
So I was always angry with herbut I think a lot of that had to
do with just I I could tell thatshe just wasn't like other moms.
(41:02):
Like she just didn't have thatmaternal instinct or that skill
set.
And even though I hadn't evenreflected on all the craziness
at that time I just knew thatyou know she wasn't a good mom.
Yeah and and I was mad at herfor that.
SPEAKER_04 (41:18):
Yep I no I totally get that and I I've often
reflected on maybe at least inmy scenario maybe that was part
of the draw for my mother tojoin the C organization because
it essentially alleviated her ofthe burden of me because she
(41:38):
just dropped me off into thecadet org you know so and I know
that I'm not sure if that wasthe case for you or not but yes
you're right that the theculture of Scientology does not
um lend itself to makingexcellent parents that's for
damn sure that is for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (42:01):
And just the thinking the way that um you are
trained or you knowindoctrinated into thinking as a
Scientologist you don't see theworld as it is you see it
through that Scientology lens.
And so you know you're notmaking clear decisions you know
(42:23):
that align with you know whatreally should be happening in
the world.
You know an example is like Ididn't realize um that we didn't
go to doctors or dentists youknow throughout my whole
childhood.
And then finally when we movedto Los Angeles um and my mom got
out of Scientology and she hadto start working because my dad
(42:45):
was disabled she finally gothealth insurance and we were I
mean we had health insurancebefore though I know because my
dad worked but she startedsending us to the dentist and I
had like five zillion cavitiesand I remember like there was
always another dentalappointment I remember thinking
why do I have so many like whydo I have to keep going to the
(43:06):
dentist what's wrong with me andas an adult I started to think
about that oh I didn't get thatcare.
SPEAKER_04 (43:12):
Right.
Yeah totally makes sense umanother question I have so as
we've talked about your bookbravely discusses the
experiences you had with childsexual assault how did
Scientology's teachings impactyour ability to name or
understand what was happening sowhat was happening at the time
(43:35):
right like with with um so forexample in and in terms of I
guess framing it a little betterum in my experience the whole
pretext of Scientology that ifanything bad happens to you
you've pulled it in it's yourfault the victim shaming all of
(43:56):
that I'm just curious how thatdid that have an impact in your
experience in those early daysor what's your perspective on
that?
SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
Yeah yeah that's a good question.
SPEAKER_03 (44:07):
Um and thought of it through that lens.
So I did not remember the sexualabuse until I had this traumatic
event happen that activatedthose memories.
So that's when I started to havethese flashbacks and you know
I'd been in therapy my wholelife for anxiety and you know
(44:28):
panic attacks because thosewould happen you know at
different times within my mylife especially like we were
talking about when our kids werea certain age and they would
always ask me you know were yousexually abused do you have any
history of that and I wouldalways say no but I always had a
memory of sitting on my dad'slap and him telling us telling
me that we had a secret and thatwe had to keep that secret from
(44:49):
my mom.
And so I write about that inthat Scientology is about
secrets.
Right.
And so I already had thatScientology secret.
I don't tell my friends aboutthe Scientology stuff that my
parents talk about at home orthe Scientology magazines or the
you know the why we were not inschool for six months and then
(45:12):
we came back and then we werelike you know where were you?
Like nobody talked about that.
My parents didn't talk about itand I didn't talk about it.
So secrets were very familiar.
Keeping secrets was veryfamiliar to me.
So that was really my lens as achild.
So then when all of this youknow came out later in life and
(45:36):
I started you know having theserepressed memories it was hard
to accept them at first becauseI thought to myself as many
sexual abuse survivors do wellyou know why are you just
remembering it now why whydidn't you remember it before
you know this was a really longtime ago and it wasn't going
(45:58):
away though.
You know it wasn't going awayand it was always the same.
And I know as an educator um youknow as a mandated reporter in
dealing with children um thatthe way that trauma manifests
itself you know and the way thatyou um survive a lot of trauma
is by repressing it and you knowand and by keeping it inside.
(46:21):
So so but at the time I I didn'tI just knew there were secrets.
Yeah and also because I had thisanger with my mom because she
did walk in on us and I do I didhave that memory.
I didn't realize what it wasuntil more memories happened and
how angry she was that oh yeahwe're definitely not going to
(46:42):
talk about this.
It's definitely going to beanother secret and this is the
secret that my dad and I haveand so like I said I aligned
with him yeah sadly.
SPEAKER_04 (46:50):
I'm so sorry.
Yeah no it's it's um it's a lotto live through well let me
pause for a minute I'm gonnapull up your book cover here and
so everyone can take a look andof course I will include a link
to your book do you have apreference on where people
should purchase this from um Ithink wherever they want to um
(47:12):
you know it's on Amazon so it'sa paperback it's an audible and
it's an ebook um you can alsoorder it if you go to your local
bookstore like Barnes and Nobleshas it so you can order it
through Ingram because it'spublished through that um
publishing company as wellbecause they self-published.
SPEAKER_03 (47:28):
So you can look it up even a lot of independent
bookstores um will have it soyou can look for it online.
SPEAKER_04 (47:34):
Yeah yeah awesome so yes clearly lies are true and
just to read what thedescription you have here Pamela
Nickel Williams is the author ofClearly Lies Are True a memoir
that offers a firsthand accountof growing up as the daughter of
early Scientology followersduring the 1950s 60s and 70s
through detailed experiences asexperiences and vivid memories
(47:57):
she reveals how the movementpowerfully and forcefully shaped
her family and her own childhoodand teenage years.
I think that's a greatdescription that's on point.
SPEAKER_03 (48:10):
Yeah yeah to get to that yes so I'm hoping I can and
I don't know maybe I'll wait formore questions but um I wanted
to talk about also the journeyand the of the writing and then
having to have some purpose withit.
SPEAKER_04 (48:25):
Absolutely go for it.
SPEAKER_03 (48:27):
Go for it okay um because it was one thing to
write it all down and it was onething to spend years and years
writing it and then to finallyhave it come to fruition and to
go on that healing journey.
So that has been you know just Iwouldn't say wonderful but it
has been um positive.
Yes it's been positive to sharethat with my own children so I
(48:50):
have four children fourdaughters and they're all adults
now um to and I never told themabout it.
Never told them about it.
You know it was it was thegenerational trauma secret you
know that nobody talked aboutand I wasn't going to talk about
it.
And so to be able to share thatwith them and to come full
circle and to say okay we'rebreaking this you know you know
about it I've talked about it Idon't have to keep this a secret
(49:13):
anymore was so healing so sohealing.
So that was you know thepersonal healing but because
Scientology is such a horribleorganization um and because of
my experiences and all of theexperiences that I've read about
and heard about I needed to dosomething more.
(49:34):
And so I want to donate and I doum a profit a portion of the
profits from the sale of my bookto the Aftermath Foundation.
SPEAKER_04 (49:42):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (49:43):
So well it's you're welcome.
SPEAKER_04 (49:46):
No but truly we I I was going to mention that you um
I I heard at the in the endsection you talk about the
Michael J.
Rinder Aftermath Foundation it'sum it's been quite the journey
and we appreciate your support.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (50:03):
Yeah it it had to have a purpose because you know
and after reading you know MikeRinder's book um and you know
just everyone's story that's theonly thing that we can do not
the only thing it's one of themost important things that we
can do to help people get out ofScientology.
That's right.
(50:24):
It's one of the most importantthings that we can do and you're
doing you know the work on theground to help people get out to
give them the support that theyneed um they're getting
everything that they need youknow they're getting a home
they're getting an educationthey're you know finding friends
finding a job all of thosethings that you know they
wouldn't be able to do on theirown and so it's so so so
(50:47):
important and part of that isbecause at 16 I was told to join
I was strong armed told that Ishould join the Sea Org and I
was ready.
I was going to and I am sograteful that you didn't let me
just say that you and I both andluckily my mom for everything
that I was angry with her aboutyou know she helped me dodge a
(51:09):
bullet and she wasn't going toallow me to um and she also yeah
yeah so that's that's that youknow the reason also is that
that could have been my life andso that's one way to help people
um that sadly that became theirlife you know and to help them
get out.
SPEAKER_04 (51:24):
Yes no absolutely and so when what what was the
release date for your book?
It was August 31st yeah nice andwhat has the response been like
so far?
SPEAKER_03 (51:37):
The response um I have the good story yeah so it's
been good I have been doing someauthor events um at some
different bookstores I have onethis um weekend locally at a
local bookstore and then I'mgonna be going up to Portland
for another one at a bookstorebut I did a book festival I went
to a book festival and it was asmall one but it was really
(51:58):
interesting.
And so you know I had that signthat you showed and my story and
everything and so I had my tablewith all my books.
And so people would walk by andthey'd kind of read it they'd
look and then they'd eitherraise their eyebrows a little
and look at me and then they'deither come up to my table and
want to know more or they'd walkaway.
And so I really realized who myreaders are or the kind of
(52:22):
people that are interested youknow and are are brave enough to
come up and ask and to talk.
And so when I would talk topeople you know I'd say give me
questions and so you know theymight ask me about my story.
And then I would sometimes startwith well what do you know about
Scientology?
And every single person Clairehad a story that was not
(52:42):
positive.
Every single person there wasn'tone person who came up and said
oh yeah I've heard good thingsno one said that I I've had the
same experience literally soyeah I can absolutely relate and
so let me ask you so if a readertakes one core message from your
book what do you hope that is sothis may sound strange but I I
(53:10):
want to say hope I want to sayhope in that there is hope for
people that were involved inScientology like myself and
others um and I want them toalso take away that I was able
to get to forgiveness becausewithout the hope and without the
(53:31):
forgiveness you're just stuck inanger.
Yeah and I didn't want to bestuck in anger I'd been stuck in
anger my whole life and so I didnot want to stay in that place
because that's not a healthyplace.
So um the other maybe message isit's a hard read but it's a good
read.
That's what everybody says tome.
SPEAKER_04 (53:49):
I completely agree.
SPEAKER_03 (53:52):
And and it's it's told I almost put a trigger
warning on it because of thesexual abuse piece but um I it's
told in a way that um I think isis not too intrusive in and that
you'll be able to read it ifthat's something that you know
is bothersome to you.
(54:13):
I've had many people that haveread it and said you know that
was hard for me to read but Ireally like the way that you
know you you shared it.
SPEAKER_04 (54:20):
Yes I completely agree.
And and and speaking of hopewhat brings you hope today and
and where do you find joy now?
SPEAKER_03 (54:29):
Ooh such good questions wow um joy and hope um
well I have grandchildren and somy grandchildren bring me great
joy you know they they reallybring me joy that next
generation and um they'rethey're just so important to me.
I think hope yeah I think hopewhat brings me hope is that I
(54:54):
see through the work of theaftermath I see through what I
follow about Scientology that itis diminishing and that the
numbers are waning and thatpeople are so aware now of that
the fact that it's a cult.
Right.
Right and not you know whenpeople talk about you know
(55:15):
religion it's like and peoplehave even said that to me and I
I started saying first I was a aum survivor of the church of
Scientology and now I startedsaying I'm a survivor of the
cult of Scientology.
Right.
Because it wasn't it's not achurch.
And so I think people are soaware of that and that that
brings me hope that less andless young people will get
involved in it.
(55:35):
And you know what I have notenjoyed about this whole journey
is social media I will tell youthat.
And so I'm on social mediabecause it's the way to get the
message out.
Yeah um but I'm not comfortablewith it.
But through social media that'sthe way to get to young people
that's the way to get to peopleto share message you know and to
get it out there because that'swhat they're looking at.
(55:57):
And so if young people arelooking at it I'm so hopeful
that they will not get involvedand that they will see it for
what it is.
SPEAKER_04 (56:05):
Yes I I couldn't agree with you more.
I personally um obviously birthto 30 was my life in Scientology
and I I came when once I escapedI came to realize the power of
labels within Scientology.
So you know I had a big fear ofbecoming a suppressive person
(56:27):
and being disconnected from myfamily all of which of course
happened but I came to realizefrom the outside and on
reflection the only power inthose labels is the power I give
them.
And so I couldn't agree with youmore on yes it is not a church
of Scientology.
(56:47):
It is the cult of Scientology ifyou look at there are so many
books on people's storiesthere's the um Bite model from
Dr.
SPEAKER_03 (56:56):
Stephen Hassan you know there are just so many
studies on this um so power toyou for naming it as it is and
that is one of the things thatum has really been exciting to
see with the aftermath is thatbringing on people that you know
(57:17):
know about cults and like yousaid naming it and saying yeah
Scientology is that kind of acult.
You know it falls into thatcategory and educating the
public you know and as aneducator I mean I think that's
that's the most powerful waythat you can get the message
out.
SPEAKER_04 (57:32):
Yes very much so awesome well um we're about to
hit our hour for today uh thankyou so very much for your time I
guess my last question for youis what's next?
SPEAKER_03 (57:43):
What's next?
I know um I have another book inme it's not a Scientology book
but um I sort of embracedwriting and so I'm I'm speaking
that truth now I I've said it acouple of times so I think it's
something I'm gonna have to doum I am also going to I've been
an educator a lifelong educatorand I am finally going to retire
(58:06):
I've decided I'm I'm going to bedone I'm gonna hang up that
educator hat.
Yeah um you're always aneducator though you know when
you go that route but I'm gonnahang that up for a while and
just you know pursue some otherthings.
So I'm I'm just thankful thatthis journey has ended and it's
not even ended, has wound thisway, you know and kind of seeing
(58:26):
what else what else happens andhoping to get the message out
more and more you know justkeeping it going and whatever I
can do to support that.
SPEAKER_04 (58:35):
Awesome.
Well thank you again for your umsharing your book with us as I
said I will link to um the allthe different places to purchase
the book and the links that youprovided so to anyone watching I
highly recommend getting a copyof Pamela's book and reading it.
SPEAKER_00 (58:53):
Thank you Claire and thank you for reading it yes of
course you talid you liked theaudible that seems so uh great
no you did a really good job I Iwas impressed you you truly so
awesome well thank you everyonefor tuning in today thank you
Pamela for joining us and wewill see you soon all right
thank you Claire thanks forhaving me thank you thanks for
(59:17):
watching if you'd like to helpsupport the channel feel free to
check out the merch store linkin the description we have hail
Zenu Xinu is my homeboy and BFGbranded mouse pads shirts mugs
all sorts of other stuff inthere that helps us to bring you
new content on a regular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book Lone for Good behind the
(59:39):
Iron Curtain of Scientology inhardback Kindle and Audible
version as well there's also alink to our podcast and you can
get that on Apple Spotify orwherever you look at the podcast
and if you'd like to watchanother video you can click on
this link right here or you canclick on this one here Or you
(01:00:00):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot until next time.
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