September 10, 2025 • 65 mins
The skills gap in America didn't happen by accident. It was engineered through decades of educational policies that systematically dismantled vocational training in favor of college preparation. Zachary Hanson, author of The Trade Gap and host of The Okayest Trapper Podcast, joins us to share his remarkable journey from corporate executive to skilled tradesman.
After climbing the corporate ladder in the AI industry, Zach experienced firsthand how precarious white-collar careers can be when he lost his executive position and faced extended unemployment. What saved him financially wasn't his impressive resume but the practical skills he'd developed on the side—trapping, welding, and electrical work. Now he's on a mission to close the trade gap by encouraging both young people and established professionals to develop manual skills as career insurance.
The conversation takes us through the historical decline of shop classes in American schools, the current acceleration of AI replacing knowledge work, and the growing demand for skilled trades in our economy. Zach provides a unique perspective as someone who's thrived in both worlds and offers practical advice for upskilling without abandoning your current career path.
What's particularly compelling is Zach's honesty about the challenges of learning trades later in life. From the emasculating experience of asking someone to change his oil at 29 to the discipline required for night welding school while maintaining a day job, he doesn't sugarcoat the journey. Yet the confidence and security that comes from knowing you have marketable skills beyond your keyboard make the effort worthwhile.
Whether you're a young person weighing educational options, a professional concerned about technological disruption, or a tradesperson looking to better understand the larger economic forces at work, this episode offers valuable insights into building a resilient career in uncertain times.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey guys, welcome to the Blue Collar Business Podcast
, where we discuss the realest,rawest, most relevant stories
and strategies behind buildingevery corner of a blue collar
business.
I'm your host, cy Kirby, and Iwant to help you in what it took
me trial and error and a wholelot of money to learn the
information that no one in thisindustry is willing to share,
whether you're under that shadetree or have your hard hat on,
(00:30):
let's expand your toolbox, guys.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Blue Collar Business
Podcast, brought to you andsponsored by our brand new
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(01:15):
one-on-one strategy session.
Use blue collar 10 to tell themthat you're coming.
Guys, today I have got such acool individual to bring to the
show who has been in corporateAmerica and seen the very tippy
top of that world.
Let's put it that way it can bea good world, it can be a bad
(01:37):
world, and he's seen both sidesof it, so I'm interesting to
dive off in there.
But he's also wrote someunbelievable books, and number
one, that's very interesting tothe show here, guys, and if
you're watching on screen onYouTube or Spotify, I really
appreciate you guys.
But the trade gap break therules.
He sent me a signed copy.
(01:59):
I'm going to be steadily workingmy way through that, um, but
he's also he's an avid hunter,guys, and he's got another book
called a turning feral, and I'mreally going to have to pick
that one up too.
But this gentleman knowseverything that is there to know
about the American dream anddiving off and literally the
(02:22):
white collar world kind ofwrecked him, jumped off in the
trades, figured it out, pickedup work and I'm going to let him
kind of take it from there.
But introducing the one andonly, thank you so much for
joining me.
Zach Hansen, the man, the myth,the legend I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Cy, what a great introduction.
You know I love getting to goon podcasts and intros are
always quite varied, but that'sdefinitely the most glowing.
I'll be accurate, I don't know,we'll let viewers decide
afterwards, but I appreciatethat.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss
anything, but a little bit aboutwhat we're going to be talking
about today.
Guys, before we get too far off, this gentleman has spent some
time in the AI world, so if, ifthat interests you, we're
probably going to be jumping offinto a little bit of hunting,
hunting stories through thisstory I could only imagine.
(03:13):
But, uh, other than that,brother, kind of take us from
number one.
I I guess you can tell us whenthe books came about in the
intro story here, brother, buttake us through the whole gambit
.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I'll try to do my most concise version so we
can kind of go off into whatevertangent we want.
But you got all day, brother.
Well, good, good, you know Iwas born late 80s.
Like a lot of people, full onmillennial, grew up in what I
call perfectly middle classsouthern Georgia.
(03:51):
You know, neighborhood Parentsboth worked, you know, in their
30s, 40s now, which is scary.
I had college pushed down myrope.
I can remember specificallyearly 90s.
(04:16):
I felt like everything was justgreat, right, I remember
getting like birthday money fromgrandmom.
That was like more than I getnow as an adult, right, uh, but
like I remember getting thesethings.
Man, this is just easy.
And I kept getting coached, evenfrom as early as I can remember
elementary, middle school.
Well, if you just go to college, doesn't matter what you
(04:38):
actually study, you are going tobe better off for it and you're
going to come out with a job.
That's what was coached allthrough high school.
Same thing.
You know we had technicalschools where I was at in south
carolina, where I graduated highschool.
But as we kind of talked in thepre-show, similarly, whether it
was true or not, we werecoached that the dumb kids went
(05:00):
to the technical schools, likeif you did not have some sort of
academic penchant to you, youhad to go to the technical
school.
So you know one of those thingswhere I had a god it wasn't an
economics teacher, um, maybe itwas I had a high school teacher
who on her desk had a hard hatand a fake college application
(05:26):
and in a bold letters under itshe had just the words you
choose again like painting, thatdichotomy of like one bad one,
good, you know where you'regoing now, mind you, I was not a
great student, I wasn't okay.
I was a wrestler, I was just.
I just wanted to do athletics,all that stuff.
But but it was college, robust,and that's what we came up on.
(05:48):
So I'm going to jump from there,which is I went to college, I
did my three and a half fouryears, got out, worked for the
government for a little while,realized that's not what I
wanted to do.
So I went back to school.
And then I went back to schoolagain.
Why?
Because when I had graduated,it was right during the
recession.
So all that gold, that pot ofgold at the end of that college
(06:09):
rainbow I was promised justdidn't exist.
Period, poof, gone, nothing.
I was scrambling, fighting,gnawing whatever to try to get a
job and I couldn't Not an entrylevel job level job.
So like other people, I justkept adding on the debt, got
master's degrees, did the wholenine, and then eventually, seven
(06:30):
, eight years after graduatinghigh school now with a great
pile of debt I was able tofinally land a job at IBM, which
was great, but for like 40K ayear.
I knew guys in high school whohad graduated, went straight
into the trades and were makinglike 70K year one and then they
did that for seven years.
(06:50):
So I felt behind.
But you know, that's theshortest version of like this
whole story and how it kind ofstarted, and I think it's one
that a lot of people resonatewith lot of people resonate with
.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Literally man we've had I I can think of three or
four right off the tippy the topof my head here that have been
in white collar america.
One that sticks out me to meright off the bat, jumped all
the way down to landscaping and,uh, previous episode, he was
sitting here talking about howhe ended up mowing for the guy
that fired him in corporateAmerica his neighbor.
That doesn't necessarilyresonate with me as much because
(07:30):
I literally just straight upsaid no to college because, dude
, I felt the same exact way Fromeighth grade on.
It was, and so I'm a littledifferent.
I didn't get to the country,obviously, until seventh grade.
Half of the semester of sixthgrade I was just trying to
figure out what this world wasdown here.
(07:50):
But seventh grade is kind ofwhen I really started.
But every single day I didn'teven know what college was.
We called it university andthen I figured out there was a
difference anyways, but it wasjust pound this college bound
mentality into your head and ifyou didn't get it, you it wasn't
.
They were calling you dumb orstupid, they were just
(08:12):
insinuating that you were, andat that time.
So I graduated high school in09.
So I was coming out at theexact same time into the world
where, oh, there should be aplethora amount of jobs and
there was development sittingstill, and so I was kind of
fighting the same fight and Iended up landing at a
municipality after doing somevarious end jobs.
(08:34):
But, dude, that littlemillennial gap was pretty rough
that people don't even rememberwas pretty rough that people
don't even remember.
But how was did I couldn't even.
What was your degree in numberone?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I'm sorry, I don't know if you highlighted that I
mean it was, you know, a hypervaluable degree in political
science understood, understood.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
and I'm like, uh, I was, I was everybody coming out
with a business degree or yeah,there's, there's still work,
still utilization in themarketplace for that.
But it's just, yes, it's statedand needed on there.
But if there's also experiencethat can outweigh that education
, eventually you get up in execworld that you've got to have an
(09:23):
education.
I totally get it.
I'm wanted to go hang out onthe weekends and so to not even
(09:48):
offer that group of kids shopclass number one, like by the
time I got into high school Iwas so excited.
I've heard, you know, from everygrandpa, uncle around here that
I got introduced.
Oh, shop class, you know, shopclass, you've heard about it.
And by the time I got there I'mlike where's this shop class,
what's it called?
And it wasn't there.
(10:08):
I mean FFA, I was in.
They wouldn't let us put agreenhouse.
That's all changed since now,but it was.
It was pretty rough to see.
I was just trying to get sometype of involvement other than
college because I wasn't goingto kind of do what they told me
involvement other than collegebecause I wasn't going to kind
of do what they told me.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, exactly I mean.
So you came at it from theangle that you had your mind
made up and you wished you'd hadexposure to, say, woodworking
class or metal shop.
Similarly, I had no shops in myclass either and we were kind
of like a rural urban school inSouth Carolina.
But there was not.
They don't exist anymore.
So I'm not saying that had thatbeen there, that might have
changed my mind, like I feellike I was too far down the path
(10:50):
of having it shoved down mythroat, but maybe I still had no
exposure to it.
And you know, to tie it back topart of the book, um, the trade
gap.
So it's kind of broken up intoa couple of sections, but the
very beginning of it is allabout the vocational education
in the US, starting from 1917 upuntil when you and I were
(11:11):
graduating high school, and thearc is, you know, we start off
very much investing in,initially, agricultural
education, right, and then, asthe Industrial Revolution took
off, we started to invest morein people learning trades,
welding, whatever, and we builtAmerica.
It peaked in 1960, where, if youtalk to anybody who was a Gen X
(11:33):
or a boomer.
All of them had woodworking.
All of them had shop class.
You talk to my dad, you talk tomy granddad, who was in his 90s
.
They were working in highschool.
They were actually learning howto do stuff and build stuff,
and that was part of thecurriculum Because there was an
expectation that, whether theywent white collar or not, they
needed to keep up with theirhomes, they needed to, like,
(11:54):
provide for their family.
Just basic self reliance waswhat they were teaching.
And then in 1983, this is aninteresting thing there was a
paper called the Nation at Risk,written by the Education
Commission of something or otherin the US, which was pretty
much saying China is going tobeat us because they're
investing in all the STEMactivities of math, science,
(12:17):
computers, whatnot.
And so by the time that paperhit, you know the federally they
started, started to redirectyou know uh funds for vocation
vocational education towardsstem.
So by the time I was enteringmy elementary school in the
early 90s, there was no shop,but we did have computer class,
which was great.
Like we learned computerliteracy, you know, we got to
(12:39):
play uh oregon trail and learnwhat dysentery was.
Hey come on Shout out yeah, butwe all have that experience and
so many high schools justeventually.
By the time the no Child LeftBehind Act came in in the early
2000s, teachers wereincentivized by SAT and college
(13:00):
acceptance rates.
So shop class, woodworkingclass gone class gone overall,
like you talked to some people.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
And there were pockets in rural areas that kept
them, of course, but overallthey disappeared from the us
education system and that's whenyou and I came about it just
didn't exist period which wasit's kind of man, what I know
now and I preach it all the timeon this show at least go spend
(13:31):
a summer with a plumber or anelectrician and get out there on
the job and talk to those guysand you'll look at them and
you'll be like how did theseguys, you know, get a job done?
And then you work around themall day and you're like, wow,
dude, we just wired an entirewhole house and put the panel
(13:51):
together.
And it's kind of crazy, likewhat did I do all day, you know.
But I encourage, just straightout of high school or even
during high school, spend thesummer.
If you know the company'sinsurance allows.
That can always be a thing.
But man, apprenticeships andthose internships I guess they
would call them, before youstart your apprenticeship, find
(14:11):
out a trade that you're at leastcurious about.
And the other thing I say is,like man, you may not love a
certain trade but you may bereally good at that trade and
you can elevate yourself into aposition of salary or managerial
.
I mean, you can manage peoplevery quickly if you become very
(14:33):
skilled at that trade.
But always I reference back tothe plumbing and electrical
worlds because they have thatapprentice journeyman's in that
two-year slot and then you canhave a master's license.
If you really buckle down andfocus in four years like that's
major money anywhere at any, anyplace in the country, like that
(14:55):
, to have that, like what you'refixing to get into.
I would love to talk aboutnumber one how you got into AI.
But literally when you werelooking for a job, after having
all this experience and thedegree and all the accolades,
you ended up coming back to thetrades and then picking that up
and boom, you can go anywhere inthe country and make money with
(15:16):
that.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The way that I think about it, it's a bit of a hedge
right.
It's a hedge against what'scoming.
And you know the book has twoarguments, just to kind of set
this up a little bit.
One I would love for it to beimpactful for young high school
students to kind of think aboutcollege.
It's kind of like a cautionarytale because it's a lot of
(15:41):
history, but it's also kind ofrooted around my own experience,
which again, I don't want tomisrepresent.
I became very successful in thewhite collar world and made a
lot of money and it was great.
But it was tooth and nailfighting to get that role on the
heels of a lot of debt that Ihad to pay off in order to get
there.
So that's one.
But I want it to be a positionfor kids to think about.
(16:03):
There are other opportunitiesout there and it's not the dumb
kids that go into the trips.
And the second piece isexisting white collar workers.
Like you know, you hear a lotgo learn a trade, get in the
trades.
But like the reality is like,with the money that I make right
now in my white collar job, Iwill not step away.
It makes no logical sense forme to step away and be an
(16:27):
electrician apprentice.
It doesn't For my family.
I just can't afford to do that.
However, you can start to buildskills, and that's the argument
.
We should all be building somelevel of base skills.
Give you an example when I didlose my job and we can talk
about that in a little bit too Idid lose my white collar job.
(16:48):
At one point I had an extendedperiod of unemployment.
I was very fortunate that inthat time that I was unemployed
I had built some skills on theside.
I had become a trapper so I wasable to do government trapping.
I was trapping wolves.
I was doing live Martin studies.
I was doing a bunch of wildstuff to pay our mortgages and
taxidermy.
(17:09):
My view of trades is actuallyquite wider than plumber,
electrician, welder it of courseincludes those, but that could
be drone pilot, knittingsweaters and selling them, it
could be trapping, it could bewhatever you want it to be.
That is a skill that has somemarket tied to it.
It might not be the mostlucrative market.
(17:31):
Trust me, selling fur is notthe most lucrative market in the
world but it can pay bills andI luckily had those things when
that time came.
So my argument for the peoplewho are employed in this
knowledge working sphere, thatis I'm not even going to say
inevitably it is being impactedby AI.
It is impacting the need forpeople to be in certain roles,
(17:53):
punching keys on a keyboard.
You've got AI that can do thatand do it better than a lot of
businesses.
So it is to learn skills on theside, which is a hard thing,
like go to night welding schooland pick up a cert, and, worst
case, you build a smoker foryourself.
Best case, you have somethingto fall back on.
Same with, like I'm getting myjourneyman's license now In
(18:14):
Idaho.
That's a four-year process,four years of school, four years
of full-time apprenticeship.
So for me that timetable isextended.
I'm doing my night school ontop of my day job and I'm
getting hours here and there,which means it'll probably take
me eight years to do it.
But that's okay, I can takethat long road and it's again.
(18:36):
It's a hedge and worst case,now I can fix stuff in my house,
you know, and I don't have tocall somebody every time.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Sometimes you do, but you know you're learning things
.
So those are the two arguments.
Setting up in the book is forthe young kids and for knowledge
workers to just start learningskills Like you don't have to be
a full-time tradesman,hopefully graduating seniors,
maybe in college yourself.
Right now, the time to learnand be an apprentice is when
you're trying to figure out lifeand you don't have a mortgage,
you don't have the family.
It's really hard to make thatcareer change and respect to
(19:24):
anybody that has at any point inyour life.
It can be done.
But when you're first coming outof high school, man, you, by
the time you're 22, 25 years old, you can be making some serious
jack from any type of skillthat you acquire by going and
working at a company thatalready does said skill.
(19:46):
They will teach you you knowwhat I mean Without acquiring
any debt, and you're alreadystarting to stack.
So but to commend you, man,like, as soon as I heard AI and
how long you've been involved init, I'm like man who, who
better to know about what iscoming?
You know I privy on this showall the time, like the existing
(20:10):
white collar worker.
Like, start learning skills now.
And if you haven't been, you'rekind of behind because I'd love
you to touch on AI and kind ofwhat you have seen already.
Because, man, like I said, Igave you my knowledge base.
I'm trying to challenge myselfevery single day to hop on,
(20:33):
challenge, chat, gpt or grok innot just a build this Excel,
like really challenged my baseand myself to embrace it a
little bit.
Because, as I said beforebefore, yeah, there's guys out
there that are like nah, dude,that's you know whatever excuse
they want to give you about notwanting to embrace it, but like
(20:55):
the guys that don't, they'realready going to be behind by
the time we get there.
So I'm trying to challengemyself.
We're not really utilizing itwithin the company yet anywhere,
but I'd say that on my, on ourCRM.
But, man, talk a little bitabout your knowledge base on AI
and kind of what you think forthat white collar existing
(21:16):
worker.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Well, it's interesting.
So, you know, from amathematical perspective, ai has
been around really at theforefront since the 1930s.
Like, the understanding of themath behind it is not new, is
not novel.
To run an algorithm to producea result with AI has been only
(21:48):
really recently cultivated in away that is economical sort of
and fast enough.
So the math has been there fora long time.
There's actually a great bookcalled Weapons of Math
Destruction which talks a lotabout AI and kind of the future
of it, and it's one that Ialways recommend to people who
are interested in ai and kind ofwhere it's going and where well
(22:11):
, really, where it's been andstarted and where it is now.
Um, also great title and the uh, you know, the net is like.
I got into it in mid 2000s.
I kind of fell into it, right,I had my general education
degree, I ended up finallybullying my way into a non AI
related role at IBM, kind offound out about AI and talk to
(22:35):
some people there working on itand similarly, I'm just like a
dog with a bone and a lot ofinstances, and I worked my way
into a role there and that'swhen the you know the veil came
back and you know, frankly, alot of it's duct tape and
paperclips, like anything else.
You know there's a lot of smartpeople doing a lot of really
cool things but, like thebusiness application side of it
which is what I was working onfor a long time was, you know
(22:58):
the ROI wasn't there.
You know it was either reallyexpensive to run, you know
finding the right applicationsfor it were difficult, and then
you fast forward to like two,three years ago with OpenAI
starting to build out ChatGPTand some of these large language
models.
You know it's impressive howfast things have moved in the
last three years.
(23:19):
And I am definitely not thePaul Revere of the singularity
saying you know, hey, william,get your cabin on NIDA, even
though I have that.
You know, get ready becauseit's coming.
But it's just been this slowmarch for a long time.
That is now on a hyper speedscale and what I'm now seeing is
(23:42):
all those business applicationswe thought would be great for
AI are now economically viableand are happening, which means a
lot of the people that weredoing a lot of database
administration.
That is something that can beautomated.
A lot of you hear about legaland law.
A lot of that is, research ofvery big volumes of
(24:05):
documentation, great use casefor AI.
That is stuff that can be kindof pushed off to a computer
system.
Similarly, even in my day jobworking in AI as a product
manager, a lot of what we'redoing is building requirements
documents for softwareapplications.
A lot of what we're doing isbuilding requirements documents
(24:26):
for software applications.
That's pretty easy to hop offto like chat, gpt, grok, claude
or any of these LLMs to getpretty close to the pin Right.
And what I'm seeing now is thereare so many organizations who
have roles and I won't name likespecific roles, but you can
(24:47):
think about what they might beto have hundreds of people to do
this stuff.
And now, if you look at itobjectively, you know you can
maybe do it with quarter of theamount of people that you're
doing with the.
You know, when you let yourpeople use these tools, they
become way more efficient.
They become way more efficient,they become way more productive
(25:07):
.
Frankly, and with that, if youlook at it from like an
objective board memberperspective or a CEO's
perspective, it's like, okay, dowe keep people on the payroll
for charity or do we give asmaller subset of really high
performers those tools and letthem do the work of the other
80%, and you know where theanswer is going to eventually
(25:28):
fall.
And that's where my stance isLike it's coming and it's
happening and we're seeing it.
Meta, all the big thingcompanies Amazon, google, like
you see layoffs all the time anda lot of it's now like eating
into, like software engineers.
You know, like you have theseAI code assistants now where you
(25:49):
can hire junior devs and theycan do as good a job as a senior
developer in a lot of instancesnot always, but it's just
reshaping in front of our eyesthe way that we think of
organizational buildup in acompany, whether that's a
software company, hardwarecompany or even construction.
(26:11):
It's just changing the way thatwe do things administratively
dude, spot on, and that's socrazy to hear that.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Um that we've had the math to do it, but it's the the
language models like gettingoff into that.
That's the absolute 30 000 footairplane over my head.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You know what I mean I'll put it this way too to tie
it back into trade.
So, like where we're at inidaho, we have a lot of desert
below us.
We are building so many datacenters that require welders,
high level electricians, likeyou know.
We have, like we have micronhere in boise building chips,
(26:52):
and they can't hire enough tracepeople to keep up with the
demand, because the energyconsumption of these machines to
run these models is insane.
And I have to remember the statI need to, like tattoo it on my
forearm so I don't forget,because I always do.
But for every like chat, gpt,prompt that you run, you know
(27:14):
you're on your phone.
You talked about, like startingto use it daily.
Every time you press thatlittle arrow button and say, hey
, you know, build me a greatbreakfast this morning, chad,
gpt, I have eggs, some cereal orwhatever, and you know it's
gonna whip you up somethingfantastic like I don't know how
many kilowatts of energy thatconsumes, but it's an absurd
(27:36):
amount really, yeah, I mean,we've seen the giant data
centers.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Obviously everybody has and my brain doesn't.
I don't understand why it takesso much power or so much data.
Obviously that's that'sprobably beyond my compensation
of my mind, but at the same,like I'm seeing it just on you
(28:02):
know YouTube shorts and reelsyou're seeing these massive data
centers, that they're movingmassive amounts of material to
stand up these ginormousstructures, and very rapidly.
And that's the other thing thatI was going to get into is that
you know, yeah, we've had thismath for this very long, you
(28:22):
know forever.
But now we've really opened itup with open AI.
But the last three years, I'mwatching it just on the outside
and I don't know anything, andit looks like it's going way
faster than everybody thought itwas going to, faster than
(28:46):
everybody thought it was goingto.
And from some of the largeretailers we have around here,
um, you know they're, they havea lot of administrative base in
the area and I'm hearing thatthey're training a lot of ai
models and I'm like, oh gosh,this is so scary.
These people, you know, haveworked here a coming.
You know what I mean.
But I don't think anybody, evenprobably the guys that have
(29:24):
been in the field for a decade,probably thought it was going to
go this fast.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
No, no, you're right, it was.
It is happening way faster thanpeople think.
Now I do have a theorypersonally, where I do think
there might be a little bit of aslowdown, but it's from an
economic perspective.
So right now these companieslike OpenAI, claude, google, a
(29:53):
lot of them are heavilysubsidized by private equity
companies, meaning that rightnow it's cheap.
Like you pay what?
$20 a month for your chat GPTlicense, yes, sir, similar to
these big companies who are nowletting their actual workers
leverage chat GPT, they'repaying maybe $50 a license per
(30:15):
person per month.
That's not a lot of money forthe productivity gains that
they're getting.
So, if you remember, back whenUber started, uber was highly
subsidized by private equity,meaning the private equity
companies were buying into Uber,investing millions and millions
of dollars maybe a billion, Idon't know how many, but a lot
(30:38):
of money so that they couldoperate at almost zero cost to
the user.
Why it's like?
It's like selling drugs.
So I, when uber came out, likeI don't know if you remember,
but you could get a ride acrosstown to like the airport or
wherever for three bucks andyou're like okay, this is worth
it, I'll download this thing.
There's no upfront cost threebucks for a ride.
(30:59):
And then what's happened overthe years?
Well, eventually those privateequity companies want their
money out of it.
So then what happens to thepricing model?
It goes up All of a sudden.
You're paying five bucks a rideand you're like, that's not
that bad, I'll sell my car, evenbecause now I'm in a city, I
don't need my car, I've got Uber.
But now, if you're like me,like when I am in Boise and I
(31:21):
have to go to the airport and welive, mind you, seven miles
away, 15 minute drive, no lessthan 35 bucks to get there,
right, and then you don't factorin the surge pricing, or you
think of a giant metropolitanarea.
It's absurdly expensive.
(31:42):
So my theory the same is goingto happen with chat, gpt.
So these licenses that are nowonly costing a company 50 bucks
a month, per person, per seat,whatever that is, what do you
think they're going to do?
They're going to start lookingat that and saying, okay, well,
if we just replace somebodywho's making 150 grand salary
for 50 bucks a month grandsalary for 50 bucks a month I
(32:04):
think we should be charging ahundred thousand dollars for
that license.
And then, you know, you netthat 30 or whatever that
productivity is.
So my guess is that price toactually leverage these tools,
just like uber, is going toincrementally grow.
But you know one size gottenpretty addicted to his chad's
potato, I put his breakfast up.
You know how far are you goingto start climbing that ladder,
(32:25):
paying that extra monthly thing?
You'll probably do it up to apoint.
But you know the vcs and theequity people are going to our
private equity people are goingto want their money out
eventually and the cost is goingto go up because they're
subsidizing it right now man,they just uh, for you guys out
there, you know that may besitting at that desk and
(32:47):
listening to this podcast andgoing hmm, you know, I've
thought about jumping off intothe trades.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, maybe talk a little bit about that nightly
welding school.
Just a little bit if you don'tmind.
And did you do that out inidaho when you got out there?
Yeah, and and and kind of giveus a little background.
I mean, you've been in theboardrooms it sounds like many a
time, but now you're in a muchdifferent environment and the
(33:13):
book is a lot of basis points isabout being self-reliant and
being self, you know,self-sufficient, and kind of
take us off.
I'm excited to hear a littlebit about trapping wolves,
honestly, so, um, yeah, I'lldive in.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
So I my background.
Like I mentioned, I went tocollege, did all the things,
bullied my way into a whitecollar job, finally started
succeeding at that white collarjob, kind of growing in my
different roles within AI space,started to build out with my
now ex-wife what I call thewhite picket fence life.
She is an ex-FBI special agent.
(33:54):
So we were in Louisiana, of allplaces, and I was flying in and
out of New Orleans to DC, toNew York, almost on a weekly
basis.
So we had built this nice house, we had the cars, we had all
the things that we could want.
All right, and it was success.
But I felt like a dog who hadcaught up to a parked car he was
(34:17):
chasing.
I was like shit, what now?
This is it.
And I remember sitting on aplane and I was watching
Jeremiah Johnson and I was likethis is one of my 5 am flights
to Washington DC or New York, Idon't remember.
And I was like what am I doinghere?
What am I doing?
And so at that point I'd say Igot hunt curious.
(34:39):
And so at that point I'd say Igot hunt curious, like I was.
I didn't grow up in a huntingfamily.
You know, I grew up in thesouth so I was like adjacent to
it, like, but it just never kindof grabbed me.
Um, and my ex-wife and I werevery into still like jujitsu and
you know, wrestling, so we werelike very much into sports.
So we kind of went from thisangle of nutrition.
So I was like, well, how can weoptimize our nutrition?
(35:02):
Her parents were from middletennessee, they all hunted and I
was like, well, let's get somevenison.
And of course we went back toher family one time for like a
christmas break and I startedkind of talking about it.
My father-in-law all the time.
He's a great guy, he's like youknow, I've got like a freezer
full of that out there.
Like you know, we take a coupledeer every year.
I like this is not some mystery, like you can go shoot a deer.
(35:26):
So of course we took a bunch ofmeat back with us and it was
really good.
And I picked up a hand me downbow from a friend and kind of
like started this track down tolike wanting to bow hunt and
built a range in my likebackyard and hooked an arrow in
my neighbor's roof, did all theterrible things that you would
expect somebody new to huntingto do that didn't have a lot of
(35:48):
like mentorship and guidance and, you know, started down that
path, then went through anunexpected divorce and I was at
this crossroads.
I was like you know what, neverreally been out to the rockies.
I've been all over the world.
I'm getting my car grabbed, mybow, grabbed the few things that
I had in my name, and drove toidaho and ended up buying a
(36:12):
cabin down an 80 mile dirt road.
You know, I was like I wasdetermined to go full.
Jeremiah johnson, I'm like I'mgonna learn to do all this stuff
.
So I started hunting elkantelope we have every critter
you can trap out your back doorand I learned everything the
hard way, which is like thestory in turning feral, um, but
starting to pick up skills.
But it was a utter.
(36:33):
You know, I don't know beingaccustomed to show, but, uh,
sure, bud, it was a bitch slapbecause I had no skills.
I went out to live in the woodsin this cabin and I really
didn't even know how to changethe oil in my car, like it was
just absurd that I'd been soguarded.
I grew up in that world where Iwent to hunt at the grocery
(36:55):
store.
My expectation is, if I wentthere there's going to be food
there and I can get it.
I can just trade these littlegreen things for food and life's
easy.
But out there I'm 100 milesaway from a Home Depot or
grocery store.
I had to start preparing Stuffin my cabin is breaking all the
time and I had to start learningand thankfully YouTube was
amazing.
It's such a benefit.
(37:15):
Chat, gpt too now.
But you just learn the hard way.
I'd break a trailer, I had tofix it and that kind of started
me on the slow trickle towardsbuilding some skills.
Like still had my white collarday job, I was using zoom, all
that, but I was building someskills.
I was learning the hard way.
(37:35):
Now, fast forward, and you knowI was the head of an ai company
out of boston, still living inidaho, and I got laid off and it
was the first I thought I wasin this little gilded like
protected circle.
But as we talked about it's,this is not true.
You know these things happen,layoffs happen, these
(37:56):
restructures happen.
You know taking jobs happens.
And ultimately I was sittingthere like, okay, I've got my
little white picket fencemanifest destiny.
Everyone said keep six monthsof savings that'll get you
through anything.
Six months went by.
Couldn't find another job.
Seven months, eight months wentby.
(38:16):
So I'm not one to sit on my assand I was like, okay, I'm gonna
go to cwi college of westernidaho, go two nights a week
welding school, just learn howto do stick welding right, just
get like a structural weldingcert.
Did it, loved it, and alsostarted my electrical
journeyman's license at the sametime while I was trapping uh,
(38:38):
pretty much full time time topay our bills and just started
diving in and we kind of talkeda little bit in the show earlier
.
But there were two guys that Iknew from two separate jobs that
were all kind of in like thedatabase administration, very
kind of specific tech job, thatended up committing suicide.
(39:00):
They weren't from my company orcaught up in the same layoff,
but they were in a series oflayoffs in 23 that happened and
two of them put a gun in theirmouth with family kids because
they couldn't find a job andthey didn't have anything to
fall back on.
They didn't have any otherskills.
For whatever reason.
They felt up against the wallthat they couldn't reskill.
(39:21):
They couldn't go back and learnto do something else despite
being very physically capablemen, and I think a lot of people
get caught in that trap.
But that's the story.
I went through this layoff andI was like I need to double down
on something that is not goingto be replaced by AI, that even
if I go back into a day jobwhich I have since then it's a
(39:43):
skill that doesn't deteriorate.
It takes continued effort andpractice, but it won't go away.
And now, if I'm up againstanother layoff or an inevitable
demise of a lot of the spacethat I'm working in, I have the
confidence that I have somelevel of skill that will fetch
some dollar amount on the freemarket that will be valuable and
(40:08):
ultimately put food in my kids'mouths.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I mean worst case scenario.
You got a journeyman's license,you could definitely hop
ontackcom backslash pro andprobably register on Thumbtack
and get you a few ceiling fansto replace and a few things to
buy the time.
But that's exactly what we'retalking about here, guys.
(40:36):
Not to shamelessly plug that,but honestly, it's exactly what
we're talking about.
I truly hope you know this showis a resource for individuals
in the blue-collar working spaceand the entrepreneurial space,
but it is also exactly for ourguest today.
Zach, I really appreciate yousharing the realism there
(40:57):
because it is real.
You sharing the realism therebecause it is real.
You spent 15 years up thiscareer chain ladder at this one
corporate place and you believethat's where you're going to be
the rest of your life andthey're going to take care of
you.
And then, all of a sudden, bam,here comes a new full level of
C-suites full restructure,rebrand and you're not a part of
(41:18):
it.
And what do you do?
You were living your lifededicated to this company.
And don't get me wrong, beloyal, be dedicated, but at the
same time, you've got to be ableto have a set of skills with
your hands or your back orwhatever it takes, whether it's
set in tile.
Maybe you enjoy that.
My wife loves to set tile and Ihate to set tile and I am
(41:41):
terrible in my hands, like Ican't hit a hammer and a nail
together, but I can pickCopenhagen out of your teeth
with a dadgum excavator.
You know what I mean.
So, like, just just it'sencouragement is what I'm trying
to get at.
If you're sitting there at yourdesk, listen to this pod and
you're like, man, dude, whycan't I do that?
You absolutely can.
(42:02):
But don't quit your day jobimmediately.
Pick up a nightly school.
There's so many Votek schoolsout there now Nightly.
I mean, I know of one here.
I'm actually involved with somehigh school programs and but
there's adult education afterhours specifically made for you
guys.
I need to get.
(42:23):
I need to probably get a fewnow that I'm sitting here,
having this I need to bringyou've made me a little bit
passionate about this subjectspecifically just for those two
individuals, man, but literallyI need to, especially to you
guys in the corporate worldwondering you know, what is this
trade gap that we're speakingof?
Well, to kind of throw thisanother course here, man, there
(42:46):
is a large gap coming betweenthose Gen X and the boomers that
we were talking about andstatistically, thank God, I have
an oldest son, but honestly, ishe really going to want to be a
dirt and utility pipe guy therest of his life by the time
he's able to run it, et cetera?
Maybe his sisters will, whoknows?
(43:06):
But statistically, right nowwe're seeing in the Gen X and
the boomers, there's nobodythere that they thought was
going to take over.
They've gone, you know, thetech route or they've got like
the actual technology route, notthe vo-tech tech like we were
just referencing, and they'vemade a name for themselves and
(43:32):
they don't want to come back andtake care of Larry's handyman
business.
But Larry built this, you know,in his cruise for his son to
take over, and so son feels like, oh, I need to come back and
help Larry, and you know it'sjust a detrimental situation.
Eventually it's going to pop.
I'm just saying, man, it's cool,we have got to bring more
awareness.
Man, it's cool, we have got tobring more awareness.
(43:53):
And so thank you so much fortaking the time to put together
a hopefully.
Where can we get the books?
Number one obviously Amazon.
I know that.
But is there?
Are you in airports?
Cause this needs to be in everystinking airport in the country
?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
No, we're going to work that way.
That's the, that's the hope,right?
So?
But you can get it at BarnesNoble online.
You can really get it at anyretailer online.
You can look it up onwalmartcom.
But you walk into your Walmartyou're not going to see it.
So we got to sell a lot morecopies before.
I kind of talk about anantiquated industry, just the
publishing industry in general.
You don't have a built-inaudience.
(44:26):
It's a difficult thing, buteventually, hopefully, we'll get
there where you can walk inyour Barnes Noble or wherever
and find the book or walkthrough the airport and see it
at one of the Hudson bookstores.
But until then, amazon, barnesNoble, walmartcom wherever you
can kind of buy a book, youshould be able to find it.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Fair enough, I wanted to give.
And hey, if you guys are in thetrapping space, you kept saying
I learned the hard way.
Man, I talk about it on thisshow all the time.
That's literally why I do thisshow is to talk about the
hardships and the experiences wewent through to get to where
(45:04):
we're at, and I and I bringfolks like Zach on this show to
share his experience, tohopefully be encouragement as a
resource that I couldn't go finda couple of years ago.
And obviously there, everylittle bit of awareness we can
bring on about.
Hey, what happens when the Gen Xand boomers can't find anybody
(45:24):
to give their business to?
They're just going to throw upthe towel.
We're going to have lessplumbers.
We're going to have lesstrappers.
We're going to have less all ofthese skills that have been you
know, I guess you know justcompletely cut away from natural
society out past your highschool.
And I was like you man, Ididn't.
I didn't come from a family ofhunters.
(45:45):
I did.
They went and hunted moose wayup in Canada.
That's one thing, but it wasn'tlike a South Georgia where it
was deer season.
I mean, you got the day off ofschool, I would assume for
opening deer season.
And South Arkansas is the sameway.
Not so much here, but it's abig dang deal.
So you grow up around it, youwant to be a part of it, you
(46:05):
want to share those stories.
So you find your way in and youhard nose your way in and you
did the same thing with trapping.
But that's the blue collar way.
That's exactly what we'retalking about, guys.
It's not like some thing you'vegot to acquire.
You literally just need to showup with a smile.
You can either go jump in someactual trade schools nightly as
(46:26):
you keep that steady incomeprotecting the family.
I'm not telling anybody to justquit.
You can, you absolutely can.
But you probably gotresponsibilities to tend to.
So just heed that warning.
But you can absolutely startacquiring skills now.
To make a maneuver, you canmaybe spend some time in an
(46:47):
after an hour school and maybenot make the jump to an
electrician outfit as anapprentice.
Maybe you can acquire yourjourneyman's license.
You're eventually going to needsome on-the-job training.
Anyway, it's a totally differentsubject, but you know exactly
where I was going.
But, man, I commend you so much.
The immediate switch in yourlife and to just pick it up and
(47:14):
start bringing awareness withthese books is oh and I haven't
shout this out, I think I did inthe intro but host of the
OK-est Trapper podcast.
I don't know if I highlightedthat off the bat, brother,
apologies there, but man, I kindof finish out every show with
one question and the guy thathas wrote a self resilient book
(47:37):
and your mindset I was going togo off a little earlier about
you know, the mindset going toIdaho and maybe you know you
speak on that a little bit tothe resiliency because you, you,
you talk about it so well inthis book.
Yes, I haven't read all of it,but I have read bits and pieces
and the heavy points of the bookand just talk about the
(48:00):
self-resiliency you've hadthrough your walk because I'd
like, I have a feeling this isgoing to help a lot of folks in
your shoes is going to help alot of folks in your shoes.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah, I mean I'll touch on what you just spoke
about prior to kind of divinginto this question, because I
think it is pertinent.
Right, you mentioned that youdon't have to quit your job,
especially if you're a knowledgeworker.
You know you want to protectyour family, but you can build
skills.
You can go to night school, butthat is not easy.
That requires a discipline,dedication and a desire to do
(48:41):
that, and I am not.
As I've gotten older, I'verealized that not everybody has
that.
So if you are not that personwith a high ambition, if you are
not that person with desire,you're not going to do it.
You're not going to do it.
But if you see the writing onthe wall, whatever industry
(49:02):
you're in and you want toupskill and that could be you
forcing yourself to use Chad GPTevery day it's not swinging a
hammer, but it's stilldiscipline to learn something
new.
Same with people who want tolearn skills because they're not
going to have a plumber to call.
You know you have to do it.
It is not going to be easy.
(49:22):
It is going to be extra timeaway from you, your family, and
it's going to suck and it'sgoing to suck, but there's an
upside, there's a hedge, there'san ability to gain intellectual
stimulation from learningsomething new.
I learned more striking an arcand laying a bead than I did
(49:44):
studying Kant in a philosophyclass in college, or at least as
much Truly, and you can pickthose things up.
So, to answer your questionabout like self-reliance, I was
lucky in that I was in sports.
I got my self-reliance, or Igot my mindset, through sports,
specifically wrestling highschool, and I've done
(50:06):
competitive jujitsu for a longtime, always worked out.
We work out every day.
I was at jujitsu earlier todayand you eat humble pie every day
.
You just get beat up.
No matter how great you are,how long you've done it, there's
going to be someone better thanyou that just rubs your face in
a mat and just makes your daycrap until you get up and you're
done.
You're like okay, that wasn'tthat bad, but building that kind
(50:30):
of mindset of just like, get itdone.
You know I write books.
I'm making tens of dollars offthese books.
You know, little plug there.
You don't make a lot of moneyon these things, but you still
have to get up, you have towrite them, you have to go
through the whole experience topublish a book and it's hard.
But all all these things startto accumulate.
(50:51):
If you learn one little skilland you dedicate yourself to it,
you're going to want to learnanother little skill and you
start to pile up these littlewins and you build this
resilience to start tryingthings and not being afraid of
failure.
I can't tell you the number ofthings that I failed miserably
at and it's every single thingthat I'm now decent at I have
(51:12):
failed at, and I think that fearof failure holds so many people
back, especially when you mightbe a soft palmed white collar
worker and just like jujitsu oranything else like, there's a
stigma about those people thatare doing it.
If you're a 40 year old manwalking into a jujitsu gym for
(51:32):
the first time in your life andyou've never been in a fight, I
commend you because you walk inthere.
You see grizzled people withour cauliflower ear you're ready
to grab you.
Like it's scary and same.
When I first met my weldingteacher I felt so inadequate.
I'm like I literally have noidea how any of this works.
It's emasculating.
The first time I had to asksomeone to help me change my oil
(51:55):
as a 29-year-old, emasculating.
But you have to do it, you haveto not have that fear in order
to build that self-reliancemuscle.
And that's what it boils downto and thankfully I had it in
sports and it kind of wrote itout, but it took practice and
failure and being okay withfailing at every single thing
(52:17):
you do.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Literally.
And on that note, dude, youknow my new skill, you know you.
You may be looking at me andgoing, well, cy, what, what are
you doing guys?
I'm a dirt and pipe guy.
I didn't plan on being apodcast host, I didn't plan on
having this YouTube and I maketens of dollars.
(52:38):
I'm with you, buddy, like wedon't do this, you know one day,
yeah, of course we're gettingthere, but we're just investing
in ourselves, right, andinvesting in our teams and what
we believe is a resource alongthe way, and that's what I think
is so cool.
But it was terrifying uploadingYouTube videos that I put
(53:00):
together.
But I knew I had to startsomewhere and the largest
project we ever landed I had 79subscribers and it was because
of our YouTube channel.
That was someone so close toour family that passed our shop
every day, had control of thatcontract, like.
All I had to do was put myselfout there.
And so of course I, you know,had a little bit of quick
(53:21):
success with with the podcastand and the YouTube subscribers,
and we felt, we felt the loveand I'm like, man, let's, let's
keep this thing going.
But man, as you know, sir, itgets grindy very quickly and
those quick hits of success.
Um, it's.
It's almost like gambling,because you want, you want to
(53:44):
keep it going.
You want to keep it going, butyou're like you're gambling with
your energy, your own body'senergy.
You have this other thing thatsupports your family.
It keeps it going.
But you have this, you know,new skill you're trying to
acquire.
For me, guys, it's stepping intothis digital space.
You know, derf to digital iskind of what I say.
You know, I didn't think Iwould end up being a podcast
(54:06):
host.
It started in my kitchen,interviewing a couple of folks
around town to bring awarenessabout number one, our industry
issues, and that nobody wants totalk about as the boomers and
Gen Xers are phasing out.
Like, we've got to startbringing this stuff up or we're
just going to acquire the samecrappy industry standards.
So somebody's got to do it.
(54:27):
So then, you know, I've had alot of encouragement along the
way Thank, thankful for sponsorslike Thumbtack, but at the same
time, man, it's an absolutegrind.
No algorithm likes you if you'reinconsistent.
You've got to be consistent invideos or posts, or videos
within those posts, or whateverkind of platform you're on.
(54:47):
So it's been super unnaturalfor me to climb behind this
camera, speak to a guest that Iprobably never met before other
than some email exchange andmaybe a 10 minute phone call
beforehand.
Like it's completely unnaturalnow for me to go dig 3000 foot
water line and I could putearbuds in and nobody would ever
have to hear from me again.
(55:08):
Like I, I'm good guys, you knowwhat I mean.
But I knew if I wanted to bringthe right set of eyeballs into
my space, I've got to go outthere and show them what I'm
capable of, and the only way Icould do that was through this
digital space.
I was terrified, brother.
I still am.
(55:29):
I still get the butterflies.
I get butterflies, and you knowI have.
Of course, anything with theinternet comes with hate, right,
but it kind of fuels me alittle bit at this point.
Like why are you hating?
Because we're doing something,we're affecting people and you
know the good outweighs the badevery single time.
(55:51):
But no, the grind of learningthat skill where I was taking
all of this guys.
But it is an incredibleemotional mental battle during
that working your 40, 50, 60hours a week.
Whether you're an entrepreneur,you work in 70, 80.
40, 50, 60 hours a week.
Whether you're an entrepreneur.
You work in 70, 80.
And then you know I get thisquestion all the time Well,
(56:12):
sorry, how do you have time?
Well, you don't you justfreaking.
Make it, you get up early.
Yeah, yeah, you know you've gota family at home too, so you've
got to make some non-negotiabletime there for them.
So, zach, with if you don'thave that ambition to be better
(56:36):
or wanting to take another route, there's nobody that's going to
come and save you, like you'vegot to want it to do it for
yourself.
And it is going to be brutal,it's going to suck, you're going
to be hungry because youskipped lunch or you skipped
dinner just to make a class, oror or make it to that second job
.
I mean a lot of theseelectrician guys.
They'll.
They'll pick you up for anafternoon if you get off at
(56:59):
three o'clock, if they've gotthree hours worth of work, run
and row or or whoever, plumbersor whatever.
It is now probably not in themiddle of summer and in south
georgia or south arkansas oranywhere over here in the
southeastern United States, wetry to be back in the van and
gone home by one or two o'clockbefore it hits 120.
But I just encourage you guysfrom Zach's story man, I can't
(57:21):
tell you how much I appreciateyou putting things out there
into the world to bringawareness and just consideration
of.
Oh man, maybe the trades couldbe the thing.
And the thing about what I loveabout the show is that we get
to bring two total opposite endsof the spectrum perspectives to
(57:42):
this.
Sit here and have aconversation about the same you
know tradie thing and we're likeman, like we have so much in
common but we came from twocompletely opposite ends of the
spectrum.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
So I like to think of it real quick.
It's like a Venn diagram, right, you know.
It's like you have two circlesand there's a overlap, and right
now you've got people on oneside who were just born to swing
a hammer.
They're never going to want tolike, do the business side,
they're never going to want todo the social side like you're
doing.
The other end of that spectrumyou've got some like really,
(58:21):
yeah, we'll say a dorky PhDtypes who will never swing a
hammer.
But then if you look at theoverlap, you know you, you know
in the trades, but you areambitious and you recognize that
there's value in AI.
You recognize there's value inexpanding the story to close
(58:42):
that gap that we're seeing withthe boomers and Gen Xers that
are leading the trades and thishuge gap that we've talked about
.
And then you're up leveling.
Similarly, there's people likeme in there that are knowledge
workers, that are also in thatoverlap, who are saying I can
actually learn some skills.
And I think when those thingsstart to marry in that kind of
center part of that Venn diagram, we're going to see a lot of
(59:03):
really interesting businessescome out of that.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Dude, that's a thought I didn't even think of.
But no, that is a great picture, visual picture for you.
I mean, you're absolutely rightand we need more people willing
to step from the right side andthe left side into the middle.
But we also, as employers andupper level management, we also
have to understand that we'renot training the same
(59:28):
generations right, so we've gotto be adaptable.
Video training does go a longway.
I'm literally a dirt and pipeguy and we've got 10, 15 videos
now that, hey, these are the 10,15 videos on this private
playlist that you need to watchbefore you step foot into a
truck and into the job.
Because of the experienceswe've had, I can go off on a
(59:50):
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the link in the show notes slashdescription below.
Thanks guys, literally, man, thetime has been valuable.
I got one last question and Idon't think there's a better
guest to ask man.
But I ask everybody on the showwhat's that takeaway for the,
(01:00:56):
now that you've had some majorblue collar experience?
But for that blue collar workerwho is just sick and tired of
being stuck in the mud?
My guy, mentally, emotionally,physically, as you know, it
takes a toll on your bodyliterally getting up and doing
these 12, 14, 16 hour daysaround the clock.
Man, what's your answer,brother?
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
I don't know if I have a straight answer, but find
a great support system.
Like everything revolves aroundthe spouse for me, man.
Like you talked aboutnon-negotiables.
You know my wife is my biggestsupport system.
Like whether you're tired ofbeing stuck in the mud and you
want to take a little bit oftime to do an online course at
night to learn about chat, gptfantastic.
(01:01:40):
But it's going to take thesupport of your wife and your
family and your support systemto do it, and it goes both ways
for the knowledge worker tothink about getting in the dirt.
You're going to need a supportsystem.
So have those conversationswith your significant other
early and often Express that youeither have discontent or you
have an ambition, that you thinkthere's something more out
(01:02:00):
there, because if you just keepit to yourself and then you
start taking action, things aregoing to fall apart.
Bring your spouse along for thejourney.
That's my only real piece ofadvice, brother.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
That's right in line with what we just came off of.
We did this four-partminiseries with me and my
wonderful wife.
We sat down and we talked aboutsome hard subjects.
My gosh, you put me in the hotseat, dude.
I wasn't quite ready for a lotof that stuff.
But we need to bring awarenessto the support level, because
(01:02:31):
you know, she claps so hard andloud for me I really don't hear
anybody else clapping, you know,and that's this it's all about
yeah, great man, great woman,but there's a great woman always
beside that great man proppinghim up when he needs propped up.
And when we get completelychecked out all three categories
(01:02:51):
she's the one that goes hey,you got this, this is why we
started and this is where we'regoing.
And that little reminder.
But you're absolutely right,she has to deal with those
sacrifices too.
Keep that in mind.
Or vice versa, ladies, you'retrying to learn a new skill.
I'm not discounting you guys.
You know, husband needs to justtalk with each other man, just
(01:03:13):
like your point.
Just open up.
Hey, I think there's more tolife than this.
Or hey, I'm thinking about this.
They may be already sittingthere thinking about, but you
guys are so busy just freaking,trying to survive and do life
together, that God forbid youlet each other down in some way
or another, just to have amoment of vulnerability and go.
(01:03:35):
I know this sounds crazy, butwhat if it works?
So, um, guys, please go checkout the trade gap.
I have got me a wonderful copy.
If you guys, um, don't followme on LinkedIn, I will be
getting a LinkedIn post whereI'm done with this and get you
guys a full review Because, asyou guys know, unbelievably
(01:03:58):
passionate about what we speakabout on this show all the time,
where can, where can they comefind you, zach?
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Yeah, so LinkedIn as well.
Zachary Hansen, but you but Ialso have an Instagram.
It's at LetMeDieLearning.
That's where you can kind offollow stuff for the OKS Trapper
podcast.
You can see some of my hunting,trapping content, see stuff
about the trade gaps, seeturning ferro stuff.
So LetMeDieLearning onInstagram and then Zach Hansen
(01:04:27):
on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
And, of course, the OKS podcast.
Is there a website for that oris it on normal everywhere you?
Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
can find it on Spotify.
So it is the OKS Trapper.
It's part of the OKS HunterNetwork out of Wisconsin.
There's a bunch of greatpodcasts kind of under that same
network.
I run the trapping one.
Yeah, Spotify, YouTube, thewhole nine.
Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Man, if you guys have loved this, I really appreciate
your time spent with us thisafternoon, learning just another
key insight.
Every single time I sit down onthis show, I get to sit here
and learn another insight ofanother perspective that I
didn't know.
And just, man, I appreciate youbeing willing to bring
(01:05:12):
awareness to this subject andcontinually challenging yourself
to learn and be better.
Man, you're inspiring and Ireally appreciate you coming on
and sharing with our wonderfulaudience.
Guys, till next time.
Go find Zach on LinkedIn or LetMe Die Learning on Instagram.
Go check out his books onAmazon.
(01:05:33):
And until next time, guys,y'all be safe.
If you've enjoyed this episode,be sure to give it a like,
share it with the fellers.
Check out our website to sendus any questions and comments
about your experience in theblue collar business.
Who do you want to hear from?
Send them our way and we'll doour best to answer any questions
you may have.
Till next time, guys.
Hey guys, welcome to the Blue Collar Business Podcast
, where we discuss the realest,rawest, most relevant stories
and strategies behind buildingevery corner of a blue collar
business.
I'm your host, cy Kirby, and Iwant to help you in what it took
me trial and error and a wholelot of money to learn the
information that no one in thisindustry is willing to share,
whether you're under that shadetree or have your hard hat on,
(00:30):
let's expand your toolbox, guys.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Blue Collar Business
Podcast, brought to you andsponsored by our brand new
sponsor, thumbtack.
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one-on-one strategy session.
Use blue collar 10 to tell themthat you're coming.
Guys, today I have got such acool individual to bring to the
show who has been in corporateAmerica and seen the very tippy
top of that world.
Let's put it that way it can bea good world, it can be a bad
(01:37):
world, and he's seen both sidesof it, so I'm interesting to
dive off in there.
But he's also wrote someunbelievable books, and number
one, that's very interesting tothe show here, guys, and if
you're watching on screen onYouTube or Spotify, I really
appreciate you guys.
But the trade gap break therules.
He sent me a signed copy.
(01:59):
I'm going to be steadily workingmy way through that, um, but
he's also he's an avid hunter,guys, and he's got another book
called a turning feral, and I'mreally going to have to pick
that one up too.
But this gentleman knowseverything that is there to know
about the American dream anddiving off and literally the
(02:22):
white collar world kind ofwrecked him, jumped off in the
trades, figured it out, pickedup work and I'm going to let him
kind of take it from there.
But introducing the one andonly, thank you so much for
joining me.
Zach Hansen, the man, the myth,the legend I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Cy, what a great introduction.
You know I love getting to goon podcasts and intros are
always quite varied, but that'sdefinitely the most glowing.
I'll be accurate, I don't know,we'll let viewers decide
afterwards, but I appreciatethat.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss
anything, but a little bit aboutwhat we're going to be talking
about today.
Guys, before we get too far off, this gentleman has spent some
time in the AI world, so if, ifthat interests you, we're
probably going to be jumping offinto a little bit of hunting,
hunting stories through thisstory I could only imagine.
(03:13):
But, uh, other than that,brother, kind of take us from
number one.
I I guess you can tell us whenthe books came about in the
intro story here, brother, buttake us through the whole gambit
.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I'll try to do my most concise version so we
can kind of go off into whatevertangent we want.
But you got all day, brother.
Well, good, good, you know Iwas born late 80s.
Like a lot of people, full onmillennial, grew up in what I
call perfectly middle classsouthern Georgia.
(03:51):
You know, neighborhood Parentsboth worked, you know, in their
30s, 40s now, which is scary.
I had college pushed down myrope.
I can remember specificallyearly 90s.
(04:16):
I felt like everything was justgreat, right, I remember
getting like birthday money fromgrandmom.
That was like more than I getnow as an adult, right, uh, but
like I remember getting thesethings.
Man, this is just easy.
And I kept getting coached, evenfrom as early as I can remember
elementary, middle school.
Well, if you just go to college, doesn't matter what you
(04:38):
actually study, you are going tobe better off for it and you're
going to come out with a job.
That's what was coached allthrough high school.
Same thing.
You know we had technicalschools where I was at in south
carolina, where I graduated highschool.
But as we kind of talked in thepre-show, similarly, whether it
was true or not, we werecoached that the dumb kids went
(05:00):
to the technical schools, likeif you did not have some sort of
academic penchant to you, youhad to go to the technical
school.
So you know one of those thingswhere I had a god it wasn't an
economics teacher, um, maybe itwas I had a high school teacher
who on her desk had a hard hatand a fake college application
(05:26):
and in a bold letters under itshe had just the words you
choose again like painting, thatdichotomy of like one bad one,
good, you know where you'regoing now, mind you, I was not a
great student, I wasn't okay.
I was a wrestler, I was just.
I just wanted to do athletics,all that stuff.
But but it was college, robust,and that's what we came up on.
(05:48):
So I'm going to jump from there,which is I went to college, I
did my three and a half fouryears, got out, worked for the
government for a little while,realized that's not what I
wanted to do.
So I went back to school.
And then I went back to schoolagain.
Why?
Because when I had graduated,it was right during the
recession.
So all that gold, that pot ofgold at the end of that college
(06:09):
rainbow I was promised justdidn't exist.
Period, poof, gone, nothing.
I was scrambling, fighting,gnawing whatever to try to get a
job and I couldn't Not an entrylevel job level job.
So like other people, I justkept adding on the debt, got
master's degrees, did the wholenine, and then eventually, seven
(06:30):
, eight years after graduatinghigh school now with a great
pile of debt I was able tofinally land a job at IBM, which
was great, but for like 40K ayear.
I knew guys in high school whohad graduated, went straight
into the trades and were makinglike 70K year one and then they
did that for seven years.
(06:50):
So I felt behind.
But you know, that's theshortest version of like this
whole story and how it kind ofstarted, and I think it's one
that a lot of people resonatewith lot of people resonate with
.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Literally man we've had I I can think of three or
four right off the tippy the topof my head here that have been
in white collar america.
One that sticks out me to meright off the bat, jumped all
the way down to landscaping and,uh, previous episode, he was
sitting here talking about howhe ended up mowing for the guy
that fired him in corporateAmerica his neighbor.
That doesn't necessarilyresonate with me as much because
(07:30):
I literally just straight upsaid no to college because, dude
, I felt the same exact way Fromeighth grade on.
It was, and so I'm a littledifferent.
I didn't get to the country,obviously, until seventh grade.
Half of the semester of sixthgrade I was just trying to
figure out what this world wasdown here.
(07:50):
But seventh grade is kind ofwhen I really started.
But every single day I didn'teven know what college was.
We called it university andthen I figured out there was a
difference anyways, but it wasjust pound this college bound
mentality into your head and ifyou didn't get it, you it wasn't
.
They were calling you dumb orstupid, they were just
(08:12):
insinuating that you were, andat that time.
So I graduated high school in09.
So I was coming out at theexact same time into the world
where, oh, there should be aplethora amount of jobs and
there was development sittingstill, and so I was kind of
fighting the same fight and Iended up landing at a
municipality after doing somevarious end jobs.
(08:34):
But, dude, that littlemillennial gap was pretty rough
that people don't even rememberwas pretty rough that people
don't even remember.
But how was did I couldn't even.
What was your degree in numberone?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I'm sorry, I don't know if you highlighted that I
mean it was, you know, a hypervaluable degree in political
science understood, understood.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
and I'm like, uh, I was, I was everybody coming out
with a business degree or yeah,there's, there's still work,
still utilization in themarketplace for that.
But it's just, yes, it's statedand needed on there.
But if there's also experiencethat can outweigh that education
, eventually you get up in execworld that you've got to have an
(09:23):
education.
I totally get it.
I'm wanted to go hang out onthe weekends and so to not even
(09:48):
offer that group of kids shopclass number one, like by the
time I got into high school Iwas so excited.
I've heard, you know, from everygrandpa, uncle around here that
I got introduced.
Oh, shop class, you know, shopclass, you've heard about it.
And by the time I got there I'mlike where's this shop class,
what's it called?
And it wasn't there.
(10:08):
I mean FFA, I was in.
They wouldn't let us put agreenhouse.
That's all changed since now,but it was.
It was pretty rough to see.
I was just trying to get sometype of involvement other than
college because I wasn't goingto kind of do what they told me
involvement other than collegebecause I wasn't going to kind
of do what they told me.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, exactly I mean.
So you came at it from theangle that you had your mind
made up and you wished you'd hadexposure to, say, woodworking
class or metal shop.
Similarly, I had no shops in myclass either and we were kind
of like a rural urban school inSouth Carolina.
But there was not.
They don't exist anymore.
So I'm not saying that had thatbeen there, that might have
changed my mind, like I feellike I was too far down the path
(10:50):
of having it shoved down mythroat, but maybe I still had no
exposure to it.
And you know, to tie it back topart of the book, um, the trade
gap.
So it's kind of broken up intoa couple of sections, but the
very beginning of it is allabout the vocational education
in the US, starting from 1917 upuntil when you and I were
(11:11):
graduating high school, and thearc is, you know, we start off
very much investing in,initially, agricultural
education, right, and then, asthe Industrial Revolution took
off, we started to invest morein people learning trades,
welding, whatever, and we builtAmerica.
It peaked in 1960, where, if youtalk to anybody who was a Gen X
(11:33):
or a boomer.
All of them had woodworking.
All of them had shop class.
You talk to my dad, you talk tomy granddad, who was in his 90s
.
They were working in highschool.
They were actually learning howto do stuff and build stuff,
and that was part of thecurriculum Because there was an
expectation that, whether theywent white collar or not, they
needed to keep up with theirhomes, they needed to, like,
(11:54):
provide for their family.
Just basic self reliance waswhat they were teaching.
And then in 1983, this is aninteresting thing there was a
paper called the Nation at Risk,written by the Education
Commission of something or otherin the US, which was pretty
much saying China is going tobeat us because they're
investing in all the STEMactivities of math, science,
(12:17):
computers, whatnot.
And so by the time that paperhit, you know the federally they
started, started to redirectyou know uh funds for vocation
vocational education towardsstem.
So by the time I was enteringmy elementary school in the
early 90s, there was no shop,but we did have computer class,
which was great.
Like we learned computerliteracy, you know, we got to
(12:39):
play uh oregon trail and learnwhat dysentery was.
Hey come on Shout out yeah, butwe all have that experience and
so many high schools justeventually.
By the time the no Child LeftBehind Act came in in the early
2000s, teachers wereincentivized by SAT and college
(13:00):
acceptance rates.
So shop class, woodworkingclass gone class gone overall,
like you talked to some people.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
And there were pockets in rural areas that kept
them, of course, but overallthey disappeared from the us
education system and that's whenyou and I came about it just
didn't exist period which wasit's kind of man, what I know
now and I preach it all the timeon this show at least go spend
(13:31):
a summer with a plumber or anelectrician and get out there on
the job and talk to those guysand you'll look at them and
you'll be like how did theseguys, you know, get a job done?
And then you work around themall day and you're like, wow,
dude, we just wired an entirewhole house and put the panel
(13:51):
together.
And it's kind of crazy, likewhat did I do all day, you know.
But I encourage, just straightout of high school or even
during high school, spend thesummer.
If you know the company'sinsurance allows.
That can always be a thing.
But man, apprenticeships andthose internships I guess they
would call them, before youstart your apprenticeship, find
(14:11):
out a trade that you're at leastcurious about.
And the other thing I say is,like man, you may not love a
certain trade but you may bereally good at that trade and
you can elevate yourself into aposition of salary or managerial
.
I mean, you can manage peoplevery quickly if you become very
(14:33):
skilled at that trade.
But always I reference back tothe plumbing and electrical
worlds because they have thatapprentice journeyman's in that
two-year slot and then you canhave a master's license.
If you really buckle down andfocus in four years like that's
major money anywhere at any, anyplace in the country, like that
(14:55):
, to have that, like what you'refixing to get into.
I would love to talk aboutnumber one how you got into AI.
But literally when you werelooking for a job, after having
all this experience and thedegree and all the accolades,
you ended up coming back to thetrades and then picking that up
and boom, you can go anywhere inthe country and make money with
(15:16):
that.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The way that I think about it, it's a bit of a hedge
right.
It's a hedge against what'scoming.
And you know the book has twoarguments, just to kind of set
this up a little bit.
One I would love for it to beimpactful for young high school
students to kind of think aboutcollege.
It's kind of like a cautionarytale because it's a lot of
(15:41):
history, but it's also kind ofrooted around my own experience,
which again, I don't want tomisrepresent.
I became very successful in thewhite collar world and made a
lot of money and it was great.
But it was tooth and nailfighting to get that role on the
heels of a lot of debt that Ihad to pay off in order to get
there.
So that's one.
But I want it to be a positionfor kids to think about.
(16:03):
There are other opportunitiesout there and it's not the dumb
kids that go into the trips.
And the second piece isexisting white collar workers.
Like you know, you hear a lotgo learn a trade, get in the
trades.
But like the reality is like,with the money that I make right
now in my white collar job, Iwill not step away.
It makes no logical sense forme to step away and be an
(16:27):
electrician apprentice.
It doesn't For my family.
I just can't afford to do that.
However, you can start to buildskills, and that's the argument
.
We should all be building somelevel of base skills.
Give you an example when I didlose my job and we can talk
about that in a little bit too Idid lose my white collar job.
(16:48):
At one point I had an extendedperiod of unemployment.
I was very fortunate that inthat time that I was unemployed
I had built some skills on theside.
I had become a trapper so I wasable to do government trapping.
I was trapping wolves.
I was doing live Martin studies.
I was doing a bunch of wildstuff to pay our mortgages and
taxidermy.
(17:09):
My view of trades is actuallyquite wider than plumber,
electrician, welder it of courseincludes those, but that could
be drone pilot, knittingsweaters and selling them, it
could be trapping, it could bewhatever you want it to be.
That is a skill that has somemarket tied to it.
It might not be the mostlucrative market.
(17:31):
Trust me, selling fur is notthe most lucrative market in the
world but it can pay bills andI luckily had those things when
that time came.
So my argument for the peoplewho are employed in this
knowledge working sphere, thatis I'm not even going to say
inevitably it is being impactedby AI.
It is impacting the need forpeople to be in certain roles,
(17:53):
punching keys on a keyboard.
You've got AI that can do thatand do it better than a lot of
businesses.
So it is to learn skills on theside, which is a hard thing,
like go to night welding schooland pick up a cert, and, worst
case, you build a smoker foryourself.
Best case, you have somethingto fall back on.
Same with, like I'm getting myjourneyman's license now In
(18:14):
Idaho.
That's a four-year process,four years of school, four years
of full-time apprenticeship.
So for me that timetable isextended.
I'm doing my night school ontop of my day job and I'm
getting hours here and there,which means it'll probably take
me eight years to do it.
But that's okay, I can takethat long road and it's again.
(18:36):
It's a hedge and worst case,now I can fix stuff in my house,
you know, and I don't have tocall somebody every time.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Sometimes you do, but you know you're learning things
.
So those are the two arguments.
Setting up in the book is forthe young kids and for knowledge
workers to just start learningskills Like you don't have to be
a full-time tradesman,hopefully graduating seniors,
maybe in college yourself.
Right now, the time to learnand be an apprentice is when
you're trying to figure out lifeand you don't have a mortgage,
you don't have the family.
It's really hard to make thatcareer change and respect to
(19:24):
anybody that has at any point inyour life.
It can be done.
But when you're first coming outof high school, man, you, by
the time you're 22, 25 years old, you can be making some serious
jack from any type of skillthat you acquire by going and
working at a company thatalready does said skill.
(19:46):
They will teach you you knowwhat I mean Without acquiring
any debt, and you're alreadystarting to stack.
So but to commend you, man,like, as soon as I heard AI and
how long you've been involved init, I'm like man who, who
better to know about what iscoming?
You know I privy on this showall the time, like the existing
(20:10):
white collar worker.
Like, start learning skills now.
And if you haven't been, you'rekind of behind because I'd love
you to touch on AI and kind ofwhat you have seen already.
Because, man, like I said, Igave you my knowledge base.
I'm trying to challenge myselfevery single day to hop on,
(20:33):
challenge, chat, gpt or grok innot just a build this Excel,
like really challenged my baseand myself to embrace it a
little bit.
Because, as I said beforebefore, yeah, there's guys out
there that are like nah, dude,that's you know whatever excuse
they want to give you about notwanting to embrace it, but like
(20:55):
the guys that don't, they'realready going to be behind by
the time we get there.
So I'm trying to challengemyself.
We're not really utilizing itwithin the company yet anywhere,
but I'd say that on my, on ourCRM.
But, man, talk a little bitabout your knowledge base on AI
and kind of what you think forthat white collar existing
(21:16):
worker.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Well, it's interesting.
So, you know, from amathematical perspective, ai has
been around really at theforefront since the 1930s.
Like, the understanding of themath behind it is not new, is
not novel.
To run an algorithm to producea result with AI has been only
(21:48):
really recently cultivated in away that is economical sort of
and fast enough.
So the math has been there fora long time.
There's actually a great bookcalled Weapons of Math
Destruction which talks a lotabout AI and kind of the future
of it, and it's one that Ialways recommend to people who
are interested in ai and kind ofwhere it's going and where well
(22:11):
, really, where it's been andstarted and where it is now.
Um, also great title and the uh, you know, the net is like.
I got into it in mid 2000s.
I kind of fell into it, right,I had my general education
degree, I ended up finallybullying my way into a non AI
related role at IBM, kind offound out about AI and talk to
(22:35):
some people there working on itand similarly, I'm just like a
dog with a bone and a lot ofinstances, and I worked my way
into a role there and that'swhen the you know the veil came
back and you know, frankly, alot of it's duct tape and
paperclips, like anything else.
You know there's a lot of smartpeople doing a lot of really
cool things but, like thebusiness application side of it
which is what I was working onfor a long time was, you know
(22:58):
the ROI wasn't there.
You know it was either reallyexpensive to run, you know
finding the right applicationsfor it were difficult, and then
you fast forward to like two,three years ago with OpenAI
starting to build out ChatGPTand some of these large language
models.
You know it's impressive howfast things have moved in the
last three years.
(23:19):
And I am definitely not thePaul Revere of the singularity
saying you know, hey, william,get your cabin on NIDA, even
though I have that.
You know, get ready becauseit's coming.
But it's just been this slowmarch for a long time.
That is now on a hyper speedscale and what I'm now seeing is
(23:42):
all those business applicationswe thought would be great for
AI are now economically viableand are happening, which means a
lot of the people that weredoing a lot of database
administration.
That is something that can beautomated.
A lot of you hear about legaland law.
A lot of that is, research ofvery big volumes of
(24:05):
documentation, great use casefor AI.
That is stuff that can be kindof pushed off to a computer
system.
Similarly, even in my day jobworking in AI as a product
manager, a lot of what we'redoing is building requirements
documents for softwareapplications.
A lot of what we're doing isbuilding requirements documents
(24:26):
for software applications.
That's pretty easy to hop offto like chat, gpt, grok, claude
or any of these LLMs to getpretty close to the pin Right.
And what I'm seeing now is thereare so many organizations who
have roles and I won't name likespecific roles, but you can
(24:47):
think about what they might beto have hundreds of people to do
this stuff.
And now, if you look at itobjectively, you know you can
maybe do it with quarter of theamount of people that you're
doing with the.
You know, when you let yourpeople use these tools, they
become way more efficient.
They become way more efficient,they become way more productive
(25:07):
.
Frankly, and with that, if youlook at it from like an
objective board memberperspective or a CEO's
perspective, it's like, okay, dowe keep people on the payroll
for charity or do we give asmaller subset of really high
performers those tools and letthem do the work of the other
80%, and you know where theanswer is going to eventually
(25:28):
fall.
And that's where my stance isLike it's coming and it's
happening and we're seeing it.
Meta, all the big thingcompanies Amazon, google, like
you see layoffs all the time anda lot of it's now like eating
into, like software engineers.
You know, like you have theseAI code assistants now where you
(25:49):
can hire junior devs and theycan do as good a job as a senior
developer in a lot of instancesnot always, but it's just
reshaping in front of our eyesthe way that we think of
organizational buildup in acompany, whether that's a
software company, hardwarecompany or even construction.
(26:11):
It's just changing the way thatwe do things administratively
dude, spot on, and that's socrazy to hear that.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Um that we've had the math to do it, but it's the the
language models like gettingoff into that.
That's the absolute 30 000 footairplane over my head.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You know what I mean I'll put it this way too to tie
it back into trade.
So, like where we're at inidaho, we have a lot of desert
below us.
We are building so many datacenters that require welders,
high level electricians, likeyou know.
We have, like we have micronhere in boise building chips,
(26:52):
and they can't hire enough tracepeople to keep up with the
demand, because the energyconsumption of these machines to
run these models is insane.
And I have to remember the statI need to, like tattoo it on my
forearm so I don't forget,because I always do.
But for every like chat, gpt,prompt that you run, you know
(27:14):
you're on your phone.
You talked about, like startingto use it daily.
Every time you press thatlittle arrow button and say, hey
, you know, build me a greatbreakfast this morning, chad,
gpt, I have eggs, some cereal orwhatever, and you know it's
gonna whip you up somethingfantastic like I don't know how
many kilowatts of energy thatconsumes, but it's an absurd
(27:36):
amount really, yeah, I mean,we've seen the giant data
centers.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Obviously everybody has and my brain doesn't.
I don't understand why it takesso much power or so much data.
Obviously that's that'sprobably beyond my compensation
of my mind, but at the same,like I'm seeing it just on you
(28:02):
know YouTube shorts and reelsyou're seeing these massive data
centers, that they're movingmassive amounts of material to
stand up these ginormousstructures, and very rapidly.
And that's the other thing thatI was going to get into is that
you know, yeah, we've had thismath for this very long, you
(28:22):
know forever.
But now we've really opened itup with open AI.
But the last three years, I'mwatching it just on the outside
and I don't know anything, andit looks like it's going way
faster than everybody thought itwas going to, faster than
(28:46):
everybody thought it was goingto.
And from some of the largeretailers we have around here,
um, you know they're, they havea lot of administrative base in
the area and I'm hearing thatthey're training a lot of ai
models and I'm like, oh gosh,this is so scary.
These people, you know, haveworked here a coming.
You know what I mean.
But I don't think anybody, evenprobably the guys that have
(29:24):
been in the field for a decade,probably thought it was going to
go this fast.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
No, no, you're right, it was.
It is happening way faster thanpeople think.
Now I do have a theorypersonally, where I do think
there might be a little bit of aslowdown, but it's from an
economic perspective.
So right now these companieslike OpenAI, claude, google, a
(29:53):
lot of them are heavilysubsidized by private equity
companies, meaning that rightnow it's cheap.
Like you pay what?
$20 a month for your chat GPTlicense, yes, sir, similar to
these big companies who are nowletting their actual workers
leverage chat GPT, they'repaying maybe $50 a license per
(30:15):
person per month.
That's not a lot of money forthe productivity gains that
they're getting.
So, if you remember, back whenUber started, uber was highly
subsidized by private equity,meaning the private equity
companies were buying into Uber,investing millions and millions
of dollars maybe a billion, Idon't know how many, but a lot
(30:38):
of money so that they couldoperate at almost zero cost to
the user.
Why it's like?
It's like selling drugs.
So I, when uber came out, likeI don't know if you remember,
but you could get a ride acrosstown to like the airport or
wherever for three bucks andyou're like okay, this is worth
it, I'll download this thing.
There's no upfront cost threebucks for a ride.
(30:59):
And then what's happened overthe years?
Well, eventually those privateequity companies want their
money out of it.
So then what happens to thepricing model?
It goes up All of a sudden.
You're paying five bucks a rideand you're like, that's not
that bad, I'll sell my car, evenbecause now I'm in a city, I
don't need my car, I've got Uber.
But now, if you're like me,like when I am in Boise and I
(31:21):
have to go to the airport and welive, mind you, seven miles
away, 15 minute drive, no lessthan 35 bucks to get there,
right, and then you don't factorin the surge pricing, or you
think of a giant metropolitanarea.
It's absurdly expensive.
(31:42):
So my theory the same is goingto happen with chat, gpt.
So these licenses that are nowonly costing a company 50 bucks
a month, per person, per seat,whatever that is, what do you
think they're going to do?
They're going to start lookingat that and saying, okay, well,
if we just replace somebodywho's making 150 grand salary
for 50 bucks a month grandsalary for 50 bucks a month I
(32:04):
think we should be charging ahundred thousand dollars for
that license.
And then, you know, you netthat 30 or whatever that
productivity is.
So my guess is that price toactually leverage these tools,
just like uber, is going toincrementally grow.
But you know one size gottenpretty addicted to his chad's
potato, I put his breakfast up.
You know how far are you goingto start climbing that ladder,
(32:25):
paying that extra monthly thing?
You'll probably do it up to apoint.
But you know the vcs and theequity people are going to our
private equity people are goingto want their money out
eventually and the cost is goingto go up because they're
subsidizing it right now man,they just uh, for you guys out
there, you know that may besitting at that desk and
(32:47):
listening to this podcast andgoing hmm, you know, I've
thought about jumping off intothe trades.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, maybe talk a little bit about that nightly
welding school.
Just a little bit if you don'tmind.
And did you do that out inidaho when you got out there?
Yeah, and and and kind of giveus a little background.
I mean, you've been in theboardrooms it sounds like many a
time, but now you're in a muchdifferent environment and the
(33:13):
book is a lot of basis points isabout being self-reliant and
being self, you know,self-sufficient, and kind of
take us off.
I'm excited to hear a littlebit about trapping wolves,
honestly, so, um, yeah, I'lldive in.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
So I my background.
Like I mentioned, I went tocollege, did all the things,
bullied my way into a whitecollar job, finally started
succeeding at that white collarjob, kind of growing in my
different roles within AI space,started to build out with my
now ex-wife what I call thewhite picket fence life.
She is an ex-FBI special agent.
(33:54):
So we were in Louisiana, of allplaces, and I was flying in and
out of New Orleans to DC, toNew York, almost on a weekly
basis.
So we had built this nice house, we had the cars, we had all
the things that we could want.
All right, and it was success.
But I felt like a dog who hadcaught up to a parked car he was
(34:17):
chasing.
I was like shit, what now?
This is it.
And I remember sitting on aplane and I was watching
Jeremiah Johnson and I was likethis is one of my 5 am flights
to Washington DC or New York, Idon't remember.
And I was like what am I doinghere?
What am I doing?
And so at that point I'd say Igot hunt curious.
(34:39):
And so at that point I'd say Igot hunt curious, like I was.
I didn't grow up in a huntingfamily.
You know, I grew up in thesouth so I was like adjacent to
it, like, but it just never kindof grabbed me.
Um, and my ex-wife and I werevery into still like jujitsu and
you know, wrestling, so we werelike very much into sports.
So we kind of went from thisangle of nutrition.
So I was like, well, how can weoptimize our nutrition?
(35:02):
Her parents were from middletennessee, they all hunted and I
was like, well, let's get somevenison.
And of course we went back toher family one time for like a
christmas break and I startedkind of talking about it.
My father-in-law all the time.
He's a great guy, he's like youknow, I've got like a freezer
full of that out there.
Like you know, we take a coupledeer every year.
I like this is not some mystery, like you can go shoot a deer.
(35:26):
So of course we took a bunch ofmeat back with us and it was
really good.
And I picked up a hand me downbow from a friend and kind of
like started this track down tolike wanting to bow hunt and
built a range in my likebackyard and hooked an arrow in
my neighbor's roof, did all theterrible things that you would
expect somebody new to huntingto do that didn't have a lot of
(35:48):
like mentorship and guidance and, you know, started down that
path, then went through anunexpected divorce and I was at
this crossroads.
I was like you know what, neverreally been out to the rockies.
I've been all over the world.
I'm getting my car grabbed, mybow, grabbed the few things that
I had in my name, and drove toidaho and ended up buying a
(36:12):
cabin down an 80 mile dirt road.
You know, I was like I wasdetermined to go full.
Jeremiah johnson, I'm like I'mgonna learn to do all this stuff
.
So I started hunting elkantelope we have every critter
you can trap out your back doorand I learned everything the
hard way, which is like thestory in turning feral, um, but
starting to pick up skills.
But it was a utter.
(36:33):
You know, I don't know beingaccustomed to show, but, uh,
sure, bud, it was a bitch slapbecause I had no skills.
I went out to live in the woodsin this cabin and I really
didn't even know how to changethe oil in my car, like it was
just absurd that I'd been soguarded.
I grew up in that world where Iwent to hunt at the grocery
(36:55):
store.
My expectation is, if I wentthere there's going to be food
there and I can get it.
I can just trade these littlegreen things for food and life's
easy.
But out there I'm 100 milesaway from a Home Depot or
grocery store.
I had to start preparing Stuffin my cabin is breaking all the
time and I had to start learningand thankfully YouTube was
amazing.
It's such a benefit.
(37:15):
Chat, gpt too now.
But you just learn the hard way.
I'd break a trailer, I had tofix it and that kind of started
me on the slow trickle towardsbuilding some skills.
Like still had my white collarday job, I was using zoom, all
that, but I was building someskills.
I was learning the hard way.
(37:35):
Now, fast forward, and you knowI was the head of an ai company
out of boston, still living inidaho, and I got laid off and it
was the first I thought I wasin this little gilded like
protected circle.
But as we talked about it's,this is not true.
You know these things happen,layoffs happen, these
(37:56):
restructures happen.
You know taking jobs happens.
And ultimately I was sittingthere like, okay, I've got my
little white picket fencemanifest destiny.
Everyone said keep six monthsof savings that'll get you
through anything.
Six months went by.
Couldn't find another job.
Seven months, eight months wentby.
(38:16):
So I'm not one to sit on my assand I was like, okay, I'm gonna
go to cwi college of westernidaho, go two nights a week
welding school, just learn howto do stick welding right, just
get like a structural weldingcert.
Did it, loved it, and alsostarted my electrical
journeyman's license at the sametime while I was trapping uh,
(38:38):
pretty much full time time topay our bills and just started
diving in and we kind of talkeda little bit in the show earlier
.
But there were two guys that Iknew from two separate jobs that
were all kind of in like thedatabase administration, very
kind of specific tech job, thatended up committing suicide.
(39:00):
They weren't from my company orcaught up in the same layoff,
but they were in a series oflayoffs in 23 that happened and
two of them put a gun in theirmouth with family kids because
they couldn't find a job andthey didn't have anything to
fall back on.
They didn't have any otherskills.
For whatever reason.
They felt up against the wallthat they couldn't reskill.
(39:21):
They couldn't go back and learnto do something else despite
being very physically capablemen, and I think a lot of people
get caught in that trap.
But that's the story.
I went through this layoff andI was like I need to double down
on something that is not goingto be replaced by AI, that even
if I go back into a day jobwhich I have since then it's a
(39:43):
skill that doesn't deteriorate.
It takes continued effort andpractice, but it won't go away.
And now, if I'm up againstanother layoff or an inevitable
demise of a lot of the spacethat I'm working in, I have the
confidence that I have somelevel of skill that will fetch
some dollar amount on the freemarket that will be valuable and
(40:08):
ultimately put food in my kids'mouths.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I mean worst case scenario.
You got a journeyman's license,you could definitely hop
ontackcom backslash pro andprobably register on Thumbtack
and get you a few ceiling fansto replace and a few things to
buy the time.
But that's exactly what we'retalking about here, guys.
(40:36):
Not to shamelessly plug that,but honestly, it's exactly what
we're talking about.
I truly hope you know this showis a resource for individuals
in the blue-collar working spaceand the entrepreneurial space,
but it is also exactly for ourguest today.
Zach, I really appreciate yousharing the realism there
(40:57):
because it is real.
You sharing the realism therebecause it is real.
You spent 15 years up thiscareer chain ladder at this one
corporate place and you believethat's where you're going to be
the rest of your life andthey're going to take care of
you.
And then, all of a sudden, bam,here comes a new full level of
C-suites full restructure,rebrand and you're not a part of
(41:18):
it.
And what do you do?
You were living your lifededicated to this company.
And don't get me wrong, beloyal, be dedicated, but at the
same time, you've got to be ableto have a set of skills with
your hands or your back orwhatever it takes, whether it's
set in tile.
Maybe you enjoy that.
My wife loves to set tile and Ihate to set tile and I am
(41:41):
terrible in my hands, like Ican't hit a hammer and a nail
together, but I can pickCopenhagen out of your teeth
with a dadgum excavator.
You know what I mean.
So, like, just just it'sencouragement is what I'm trying
to get at.
If you're sitting there at yourdesk, listen to this pod and
you're like, man, dude, whycan't I do that?
You absolutely can.
(42:02):
But don't quit your day jobimmediately.
Pick up a nightly school.
There's so many Votek schoolsout there now Nightly.
I mean, I know of one here.
I'm actually involved with somehigh school programs and but
there's adult education afterhours specifically made for you
guys.
I need to get.
(42:23):
I need to probably get a fewnow that I'm sitting here,
having this I need to bringyou've made me a little bit
passionate about this subjectspecifically just for those two
individuals, man, but literallyI need to, especially to you
guys in the corporate worldwondering you know, what is this
trade gap that we're speakingof?
Well, to kind of throw thisanother course here, man, there
(42:46):
is a large gap coming betweenthose Gen X and the boomers that
we were talking about andstatistically, thank God, I have
an oldest son, but honestly, ishe really going to want to be a
dirt and utility pipe guy therest of his life by the time
he's able to run it, et cetera?
Maybe his sisters will, whoknows?
(43:06):
But statistically, right nowwe're seeing in the Gen X and
the boomers, there's nobodythere that they thought was
going to take over.
They've gone, you know, thetech route or they've got like
the actual technology route, notthe vo-tech tech like we were
just referencing, and they'vemade a name for themselves and
(43:32):
they don't want to come back andtake care of Larry's handyman
business.
But Larry built this, you know,in his cruise for his son to
take over, and so son feels like, oh, I need to come back and
help Larry, and you know it'sjust a detrimental situation.
Eventually it's going to pop.
I'm just saying, man, it's cool,we have got to bring more
awareness.
Man, it's cool, we have got tobring more awareness.
(43:53):
And so thank you so much fortaking the time to put together
a hopefully.
Where can we get the books?
Number one obviously Amazon.
I know that.
But is there?
Are you in airports?
Cause this needs to be in everystinking airport in the country
?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
No, we're going to work that way.
That's the, that's the hope,right?
So?
But you can get it at BarnesNoble online.
You can really get it at anyretailer online.
You can look it up onwalmartcom.
But you walk into your Walmartyou're not going to see it.
So we got to sell a lot morecopies before.
I kind of talk about anantiquated industry, just the
publishing industry in general.
You don't have a built-inaudience.
(44:26):
It's a difficult thing, buteventually, hopefully, we'll get
there where you can walk inyour Barnes Noble or wherever
and find the book or walkthrough the airport and see it
at one of the Hudson bookstores.
But until then, amazon, barnesNoble, walmartcom wherever you
can kind of buy a book, youshould be able to find it.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Fair enough, I wanted to give.
And hey, if you guys are in thetrapping space, you kept saying
I learned the hard way.
Man, I talk about it on thisshow all the time.
That's literally why I do thisshow is to talk about the
hardships and the experiences wewent through to get to where
(45:04):
we're at, and I and I bringfolks like Zach on this show to
share his experience, tohopefully be encouragement as a
resource that I couldn't go finda couple of years ago.
And obviously there, everylittle bit of awareness we can
bring on about.
Hey, what happens when the Gen Xand boomers can't find anybody
(45:24):
to give their business to?
They're just going to throw upthe towel.
We're going to have lessplumbers.
We're going to have lesstrappers.
We're going to have less all ofthese skills that have been you
know, I guess you know justcompletely cut away from natural
society out past your highschool.
And I was like you man, Ididn't.
I didn't come from a family ofhunters.
(45:45):
I did.
They went and hunted moose wayup in Canada.
That's one thing, but it wasn'tlike a South Georgia where it
was deer season.
I mean, you got the day off ofschool, I would assume for
opening deer season.
And South Arkansas is the sameway.
Not so much here, but it's abig dang deal.
So you grow up around it, youwant to be a part of it, you
(46:05):
want to share those stories.
So you find your way in and youhard nose your way in and you
did the same thing with trapping.
But that's the blue collar way.
That's exactly what we'retalking about, guys.
It's not like some thing you'vegot to acquire.
You literally just need to showup with a smile.
You can either go jump in someactual trade schools nightly as
(46:26):
you keep that steady incomeprotecting the family.
I'm not telling anybody to justquit.
You can, you absolutely can.
But you probably gotresponsibilities to tend to.
So just heed that warning.
But you can absolutely startacquiring skills now.
To make a maneuver, you canmaybe spend some time in an
(46:47):
after an hour school and maybenot make the jump to an
electrician outfit as anapprentice.
Maybe you can acquire yourjourneyman's license.
You're eventually going to needsome on-the-job training.
Anyway, it's a totally differentsubject, but you know exactly
where I was going.
But, man, I commend you so much.
The immediate switch in yourlife and to just pick it up and
(47:14):
start bringing awareness withthese books is oh and I haven't
shout this out, I think I did inthe intro but host of the
OK-est Trapper podcast.
I don't know if I highlightedthat off the bat, brother,
apologies there, but man, I kindof finish out every show with
one question and the guy thathas wrote a self resilient book
(47:37):
and your mindset I was going togo off a little earlier about
you know, the mindset going toIdaho and maybe you know you
speak on that a little bit tothe resiliency because you, you,
you talk about it so well inthis book.
Yes, I haven't read all of it,but I have read bits and pieces
and the heavy points of the bookand just talk about the
(48:00):
self-resiliency you've hadthrough your walk because I'd
like, I have a feeling this isgoing to help a lot of folks in
your shoes is going to help alot of folks in your shoes.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah, I mean I'll touch on what you just spoke
about prior to kind of divinginto this question, because I
think it is pertinent.
Right, you mentioned that youdon't have to quit your job,
especially if you're a knowledgeworker.
You know you want to protectyour family, but you can build
skills.
You can go to night school, butthat is not easy.
That requires a discipline,dedication and a desire to do
(48:41):
that, and I am not.
As I've gotten older, I'verealized that not everybody has
that.
So if you are not that personwith a high ambition, if you are
not that person with desire,you're not going to do it.
You're not going to do it.
But if you see the writing onthe wall, whatever industry
(49:02):
you're in and you want toupskill and that could be you
forcing yourself to use Chad GPTevery day it's not swinging a
hammer, but it's stilldiscipline to learn something
new.
Same with people who want tolearn skills because they're not
going to have a plumber to call.
You know you have to do it.
It is not going to be easy.
(49:22):
It is going to be extra timeaway from you, your family, and
it's going to suck and it'sgoing to suck, but there's an
upside, there's a hedge, there'san ability to gain intellectual
stimulation from learningsomething new.
I learned more striking an arcand laying a bead than I did
(49:44):
studying Kant in a philosophyclass in college, or at least as
much Truly, and you can pickthose things up.
So, to answer your questionabout like self-reliance, I was
lucky in that I was in sports.
I got my self-reliance, or Igot my mindset, through sports,
specifically wrestling highschool, and I've done
(50:06):
competitive jujitsu for a longtime, always worked out.
We work out every day.
I was at jujitsu earlier todayand you eat humble pie every day
.
You just get beat up.
No matter how great you are,how long you've done it, there's
going to be someone better thanyou that just rubs your face in
a mat and just makes your daycrap until you get up and you're
done.
You're like okay, that wasn'tthat bad, but building that kind
(50:30):
of mindset of just like, get itdone.
You know I write books.
I'm making tens of dollars offthese books.
You know, little plug there.
You don't make a lot of moneyon these things, but you still
have to get up, you have towrite them, you have to go
through the whole experience topublish a book and it's hard.
But all all these things startto accumulate.
(50:51):
If you learn one little skilland you dedicate yourself to it,
you're going to want to learnanother little skill and you
start to pile up these littlewins and you build this
resilience to start tryingthings and not being afraid of
failure.
I can't tell you the number ofthings that I failed miserably
at and it's every single thingthat I'm now decent at I have
(51:12):
failed at, and I think that fearof failure holds so many people
back, especially when you mightbe a soft palmed white collar
worker and just like jujitsu oranything else like, there's a
stigma about those people thatare doing it.
If you're a 40 year old manwalking into a jujitsu gym for
(51:32):
the first time in your life andyou've never been in a fight, I
commend you because you walk inthere.
You see grizzled people withour cauliflower ear you're ready
to grab you.
Like it's scary and same.
When I first met my weldingteacher I felt so inadequate.
I'm like I literally have noidea how any of this works.
It's emasculating.
The first time I had to asksomeone to help me change my oil
(51:55):
as a 29-year-old, emasculating.
But you have to do it, you haveto not have that fear in order
to build that self-reliancemuscle.
And that's what it boils downto and thankfully I had it in
sports and it kind of wrote itout, but it took practice and
failure and being okay withfailing at every single thing
(52:17):
you do.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Literally.
And on that note, dude, youknow my new skill, you know you.
You may be looking at me andgoing, well, cy, what, what are
you doing guys?
I'm a dirt and pipe guy.
I didn't plan on being apodcast host, I didn't plan on
having this YouTube and I maketens of dollars.
(52:38):
I'm with you, buddy, like wedon't do this, you know one day,
yeah, of course we're gettingthere, but we're just investing
in ourselves, right, andinvesting in our teams and what
we believe is a resource alongthe way, and that's what I think
is so cool.
But it was terrifying uploadingYouTube videos that I put
(53:00):
together.
But I knew I had to startsomewhere and the largest
project we ever landed I had 79subscribers and it was because
of our YouTube channel.
That was someone so close toour family that passed our shop
every day, had control of thatcontract, like.
All I had to do was put myselfout there.
And so of course I, you know,had a little bit of quick
(53:21):
success with with the podcastand and the YouTube subscribers,
and we felt, we felt the loveand I'm like, man, let's, let's
keep this thing going.
But man, as you know, sir, itgets grindy very quickly and
those quick hits of success.
Um, it's.
It's almost like gambling,because you want, you want to
(53:44):
keep it going.
You want to keep it going, butyou're like you're gambling with
your energy, your own body'senergy.
You have this other thing thatsupports your family.
It keeps it going.
But you have this, you know,new skill you're trying to
acquire.
For me, guys, it's stepping intothis digital space.
You know, derf to digital iskind of what I say.
You know, I didn't think Iwould end up being a podcast
(54:06):
host.
It started in my kitchen,interviewing a couple of folks
around town to bring awarenessabout number one, our industry
issues, and that nobody wants totalk about as the boomers and
Gen Xers are phasing out.
Like, we've got to startbringing this stuff up or we're
just going to acquire the samecrappy industry standards.
So somebody's got to do it.
(54:27):
So then, you know, I've had alot of encouragement along the
way Thank, thankful for sponsorslike Thumbtack, but at the same
time, man, it's an absolutegrind.
No algorithm likes you if you'reinconsistent.
You've got to be consistent invideos or posts, or videos
within those posts, or whateverkind of platform you're on.
(54:47):
So it's been super unnaturalfor me to climb behind this
camera, speak to a guest that Iprobably never met before other
than some email exchange andmaybe a 10 minute phone call
beforehand.
Like it's completely unnaturalnow for me to go dig 3000 foot
water line and I could putearbuds in and nobody would ever
have to hear from me again.
(55:08):
Like I, I'm good guys, you knowwhat I mean.
But I knew if I wanted to bringthe right set of eyeballs into
my space, I've got to go outthere and show them what I'm
capable of, and the only way Icould do that was through this
digital space.
I was terrified, brother.
I still am.
(55:29):
I still get the butterflies.
I get butterflies, and you knowI have.
Of course, anything with theinternet comes with hate, right,
but it kind of fuels me alittle bit at this point.
Like why are you hating?
Because we're doing something,we're affecting people and you
know the good outweighs the badevery single time.
(55:51):
But no, the grind of learningthat skill where I was taking
all of this guys.
But it is an incredibleemotional mental battle during
that working your 40, 50, 60hours a week.
Whether you're an entrepreneur,you work in 70, 80.
40, 50, 60 hours a week.
Whether you're an entrepreneur.
You work in 70, 80.
And then you know I get thisquestion all the time Well,
(56:12):
sorry, how do you have time?
Well, you don't you justfreaking.
Make it, you get up early.
Yeah, yeah, you know you've gota family at home too, so you've
got to make some non-negotiabletime there for them.
So, zach, with if you don'thave that ambition to be better
(56:36):
or wanting to take another route, there's nobody that's going to
come and save you, like you'vegot to want it to do it for
yourself.
And it is going to be brutal,it's going to suck, you're going
to be hungry because youskipped lunch or you skipped
dinner just to make a class, oror or make it to that second job
.
I mean a lot of theseelectrician guys.
They'll.
They'll pick you up for anafternoon if you get off at
(56:59):
three o'clock, if they've gotthree hours worth of work, run
and row or or whoever, plumbersor whatever.
It is now probably not in themiddle of summer and in south
georgia or south arkansas oranywhere over here in the
southeastern United States, wetry to be back in the van and
gone home by one or two o'clockbefore it hits 120.
But I just encourage you guysfrom Zach's story man, I can't
(57:21):
tell you how much I appreciateyou putting things out there
into the world to bringawareness and just consideration
of.
Oh man, maybe the trades couldbe the thing.
And the thing about what I loveabout the show is that we get
to bring two total opposite endsof the spectrum perspectives to
(57:42):
this.
Sit here and have aconversation about the same you
know tradie thing and we're likeman, like we have so much in
common but we came from twocompletely opposite ends of the
spectrum.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
So I like to think of it real quick.
It's like a Venn diagram, right, you know.
It's like you have two circlesand there's a overlap, and right
now you've got people on oneside who were just born to swing
a hammer.
They're never going to want tolike, do the business side,
they're never going to want todo the social side like you're
doing.
The other end of that spectrumyou've got some like really,
(58:21):
yeah, we'll say a dorky PhDtypes who will never swing a
hammer.
But then if you look at theoverlap, you know you, you know
in the trades, but you areambitious and you recognize that
there's value in AI.
You recognize there's value inexpanding the story to close
(58:42):
that gap that we're seeing withthe boomers and Gen Xers that
are leading the trades and thishuge gap that we've talked about
.
And then you're up leveling.
Similarly, there's people likeme in there that are knowledge
workers, that are also in thatoverlap, who are saying I can
actually learn some skills.
And I think when those thingsstart to marry in that kind of
center part of that Venn diagram, we're going to see a lot of
(59:03):
really interesting businessescome out of that.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Dude, that's a thought I didn't even think of.
But no, that is a great picture, visual picture for you.
I mean, you're absolutely rightand we need more people willing
to step from the right side andthe left side into the middle.
But we also, as employers andupper level management, we also
have to understand that we'renot training the same
(59:28):
generations right, so we've gotto be adaptable.
Video training does go a longway.
I'm literally a dirt and pipeguy and we've got 10, 15 videos
now that, hey, these are the 10,15 videos on this private
playlist that you need to watchbefore you step foot into a
truck and into the job.
Because of the experienceswe've had, I can go off on a
(59:50):
whole different sector there.
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They specialize incomprehensive digital marketing
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the link in the show notes slashdescription below.
Thanks guys, literally, man, thetime has been valuable.
I got one last question and Idon't think there's a better
guest to ask man.
But I ask everybody on the showwhat's that takeaway for the,
(01:00:56):
now that you've had some majorblue collar experience?
But for that blue collar workerwho is just sick and tired of
being stuck in the mud?
My guy, mentally, emotionally,physically, as you know, it
takes a toll on your bodyliterally getting up and doing
these 12, 14, 16 hour daysaround the clock.
Man, what's your answer,brother?
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
I don't know if I have a straight answer, but find
a great support system.
Like everything revolves aroundthe spouse for me, man.
Like you talked aboutnon-negotiables.
You know my wife is my biggestsupport system.
Like whether you're tired ofbeing stuck in the mud and you
want to take a little bit oftime to do an online course at
night to learn about chat, gptfantastic.
(01:01:40):
But it's going to take thesupport of your wife and your
family and your support systemto do it, and it goes both ways
for the knowledge worker tothink about getting in the dirt.
You're going to need a supportsystem.
So have those conversationswith your significant other
early and often Express that youeither have discontent or you
have an ambition, that you thinkthere's something more out
(01:02:00):
there, because if you just keepit to yourself and then you
start taking action, things aregoing to fall apart.
Bring your spouse along for thejourney.
That's my only real piece ofadvice, brother.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
That's right in line with what we just came off of.
We did this four-partminiseries with me and my
wonderful wife.
We sat down and we talked aboutsome hard subjects.
My gosh, you put me in the hotseat, dude.
I wasn't quite ready for a lotof that stuff.
But we need to bring awarenessto the support level, because
(01:02:31):
you know, she claps so hard andloud for me I really don't hear
anybody else clapping, you know,and that's this it's all about
yeah, great man, great woman,but there's a great woman always
beside that great man proppinghim up when he needs propped up.
And when we get completelychecked out all three categories
(01:02:51):
she's the one that goes hey,you got this, this is why we
started and this is where we'regoing.
And that little reminder.
But you're absolutely right,she has to deal with those
sacrifices too.
Keep that in mind.
Or vice versa, ladies, you'retrying to learn a new skill.
I'm not discounting you guys.
You know, husband needs to justtalk with each other man, just
(01:03:13):
like your point.
Just open up.
Hey, I think there's more tolife than this.
Or hey, I'm thinking about this.
They may be already sittingthere thinking about, but you
guys are so busy just freaking,trying to survive and do life
together, that God forbid youlet each other down in some way
or another, just to have amoment of vulnerability and go.
(01:03:35):
I know this sounds crazy, butwhat if it works?
So, um, guys, please go checkout the trade gap.
I have got me a wonderful copy.
If you guys, um, don't followme on LinkedIn, I will be
getting a LinkedIn post whereI'm done with this and get you
guys a full review Because, asyou guys know, unbelievably
(01:03:58):
passionate about what we speakabout on this show all the time,
where can, where can they comefind you, zach?
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Yeah, so LinkedIn as well.
Zachary Hansen, but you but Ialso have an Instagram.
It's at LetMeDieLearning.
That's where you can kind offollow stuff for the OKS Trapper
podcast.
You can see some of my hunting,trapping content, see stuff
about the trade gaps, seeturning ferro stuff.
So LetMeDieLearning onInstagram and then Zach Hansen
(01:04:27):
on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
And, of course, the OKS podcast.
Is there a website for that oris it on normal everywhere you?
Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
can find it on Spotify.
So it is the OKS Trapper.
It's part of the OKS HunterNetwork out of Wisconsin.
There's a bunch of greatpodcasts kind of under that same
network.
I run the trapping one.
Yeah, Spotify, YouTube, thewhole nine.
Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Man, if you guys have loved this, I really appreciate
your time spent with us thisafternoon, learning just another
key insight.
Every single time I sit down onthis show, I get to sit here
and learn another insight ofanother perspective that I
didn't know.
And just, man, I appreciate youbeing willing to bring
(01:05:12):
awareness to this subject andcontinually challenging yourself
to learn and be better.
Man, you're inspiring and Ireally appreciate you coming on
and sharing with our wonderfulaudience.
Guys, till next time.
Go find Zach on LinkedIn or LetMe Die Learning on Instagram.
Go check out his books onAmazon.
(01:05:33):
And until next time, guys,y'all be safe.
If you've enjoyed this episode,be sure to give it a like,
share it with the fellers.
Check out our website to sendus any questions and comments
about your experience in theblue collar business.
Who do you want to hear from?
Send them our way and we'll doour best to answer any questions
you may have.
Till next time, guys.
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