Ep. 59 - Big Jobs, Bigger Mistakes: What They Don’t Teach in Construction

Ever wonder why some blue-collar businesses look huge online yet struggle to keep cash in the bank? We dig into the real story behind sustainable growth with John Seaman of JC Property Professionals, how a kid raised on job sites built a company across trees, clearing, and grading, then made the tough call to walk away from custom home headaches and lean into dirt work where the math made sense. Along the way, we unpack the gear debate that quietly bankrupts operators: new machines with warranty and loaners vs. old iron and unpredictable downtime. John explains the hidden costs of diagnostics, idle crews, and client trust, and why protecting production is the most profitable decision you can make.

We get tactical on residential psychology and boundary-setting. Clear contracts, explicit notes, and pre-wired clauses for HOAs, stoppages, and changes prevent “death by favors.” John shares the exact mindset he gives his crews to stop scope creep at the first ask and keep control of the job. We contrast residential and commercial with honesty: engineers can freeze a project and make you look bad, while residential puts you face-to-face with the decision maker. The key is picking a lane that fits your temperament, team, and margins, then ignoring the vanity pressure to chase “big job” optics.

If you’re tired of pricing by gut and reconciling losses at month’s end, this conversation shows how to job cost in real time, close the loop between estimating and field performance, and build SOPs that protect profit. We also cover the go/no-go matrix for filtering red-flag clients, why quality finishes are your strongest referral engine, and how to think about lead gen only after you truly know your overhead. No fluff, just the unfiltered playbook for uptime, scope control, and margins that stack.

If this helps your business, follow the show, share it with a crew leader who needs the nudge, and leave a quick review so we can reach more blue-collar owners who want results, not buzzwords.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hey guys, welcome to the Blue Collar Business
Podcast, where we discuss therealest, rawest, most relevant
stories and strategies behindbuilding every corner of a
blue-collar business.
I'm your host, Ty Kirby, and Iwant to help you what it took
me, trial and error, and a wholelot of money to learn.
The information that no one inthis industry is willing to
share.
Whether you're under that shadetree or have your hard hat on,

(00:30):
let's expand your toolbox.
Guys, welcome back to anotherepisode of the Blue Collar
Business Podcast, brought to youand sponsored by our wonderful
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(00:50):
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Automation keeps you runningsmoothly, and centralized
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Every day, pros use Thumbtack tohit their goals.
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Visit thumbtack.com slash pro tobook your personalized strategy
session a day.
Guys, I have got one that youguys have all been waiting on.

(01:14):
I have mentioned it in a fewposts prior to this point.
A gentleman and a pioneer who Ihave looked up to through our
marketing journey, who isabsolutely at the pinnacle and
pushing even further.
Um, you guys may have seen himon TikTok, you may have seen him
on Instagram.
He's all over the placecurrently, and I'm so glad to

(01:38):
have him on the show.
We carry a lot of the samesimilarities and goals, mindset,
and structure.
None other than the one and onlyJohn Seaman, president at JC
Property Professionals.
The man, thank you so much forjoining me, brother.

SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Thanks for having me on, dude.
Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
Dude, we we I've I've been a huge fan.
Uh I still do the same thing.
Huge fan here, my guy.
And anybody that's willing to dowhat we do and then talk about
it, it's everybody's so closechest, everybody's so, oh, I
can't tell them.
That's an edge.
But anybody that's willing torepetitively, consistently

(02:19):
provide content and value to theblue-collar men and women across
this country can't thank youenough for all the programs that
you guys are putting out therefor them.
Um, YouTube and the Dirt toDollars coaching, like John's
the guy, guys.
And we're gonna get to hear alittle bit of his story today
and go back and forth andprobably reminis on some uh some

(02:42):
probably crappy projects, maybegood projects, things we've
learned.
And we both have learned it theexact same way, and it's tried
and true experience and throwingtens of thousands of dollars out
the window to figure out ooh, weshould probably do that better.
But all the way from Nebo, NorthCarolina, my guy, give us uh
give us a little rundown of howyou got into this, why you got

(03:05):
into excavation.
Uh, because after you're in itfor 10 years, you're like, bruh,
why didn't I do this?
But watching you climb themtrees, dude, is uh literally
above my head.
Uh you ain't getting me unlessit's a tree stand, my guy.
You ain't getting me up in atree.
Talk a little bit for us.

SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Yeah, man.
So um it's a long story, dude.
But I mean, uh essentially Igrew up kind of in the trades.
My dad has always built housesworking with other folks, you
know, running crews for them.
And um, some of my earliestmemories is just being on the
job site as like just beingthere, you know, because it's
something that I couldn't havesomeone to watch me or
something, you know, and or Ididn't want to be stuck at the

(03:45):
house.
And um, I remember one one timeI was carrying a five-gallon
bucket.
I tell a story all the time, andand my job uh was to go around
and just clean up, you know, youknow, end pieces of wood, put it
all in a burn pile or dumpsteror whatever, and I'd and they'd
give me a five-gallon bucket tocarry around and throw all the
stuff in, and and the and Iremember like the bucket being
as tall as I was that I wascarrying around.

(04:08):
So I've literally just grew upon job sites, and um, you know,
I also grew up racing dirtbikes.
So, you know, my dad would workfor someone, and on the weekends
we'd go do side jobs to pay forgoing to racing dirt bikes.
And um, so you know, it was likeme and him just doing these
small roofs and siding andwindows and decks and stuff like
that.

(04:28):
And um I uh, you know, Ithought, well, I you know, be
coming through school, the thethe teachers were really pushing
me to like choose what college Iwanted to go to and like really
getting in my head of like if Idon't go to college, I'm never
gonna amount to nothing, youknow.

SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
So it makes me so mad, but I agree, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
They convinced me, man.
They convinced me.
So I uh uh I I left um you knowin in 2009.
I graduated high school and Iwent to Florida and I and I went
to school there.
And um then I'd had a jobtraveling for a few years, which
was uh installing illuminationcontrol and automation and stuff
in hotels, so kind of back inthe trades already, you know,
right out of right back out ofcounty.

(05:11):
Um and I and I enjoyed that, youknow.
We we traveled all over theUnited States and and and it was
um hands-on work and it was onthe cleaner side because it's
more like electrical, you know.
Right.
Um and I made really greatmoney, but uh, you know, like my
life was just work.
I mean, I traveled every singleday to a new state and worked in

(05:32):
that state, you know, all daylong, and then I traveled
somewhere else.
And and I also had went as faras I could go in that company as
a PM in a pretty short amount oftime because believe it or not,
in the trades you can excelpretty pretty fast if you just
work hard, you know.
And um uh you know, I've I'vejust got a business owner,
entrepreneurial mindset, andwas, you know, I didn't want to

(05:53):
be an employee forever, so Ijust I asked if I could buy into
the company or have some partialownership or something, you
know, and it was a family-ownedcompany and they wanted to keep
it family-owned, and I respectedthat and just put a notice in
and um worked the notice andcome home and started my own
thing.
And I was able to hire my pops,you know, he was still working
for someone that he's prettymuch worked for my whole life,

(06:15):
you know.
And I said, Hey dad, I'm gonnastart doing this thing.
You want to come and help me?
And he he came on and um we justkind of picked right back up,
like before from before I wentto college.
We just started doing smallthings again, you know, did lots
and lots of roofs, and um wekept growing and getting a
little bigger and bigger, and uhwe got to the point where we

(06:36):
were doing additions, and I hadto go get my GC license and we
would start doing full-sizebuilds and custom homes, and um
did that for several years andreally just got burnt out with
like the emotion involved in inthe construction with materials,
and you know, when someonethinks about building their
custom home their entire life,you know, like typically that's

(06:59):
their that's their final home,you know, and so like they've
already thought about all thematerials, the light fixtures,
the plumbing fixtures, and whenyou can't get those items, uh
they get pretty emotional prettyquick.
And it's you know, for us, it'sjust a job.
Like, you know, we're notmarried to the home, you know,
and we of course want to deliverthe best job possible, but uh,

(07:20):
you know, at the end of the day,like my job is to deliver the
house, but I was then having tobe a psychiatrist, and it wasn't
for me, man.
Um before I got to that point ofbeing like, hey, I'm done with
the construction part, I hadsome folks come to me who were
really, really great at cuttingtrees.
Uh, they they were working foranother guy that they that

(07:41):
relationship kind of had come toan end.
And um, I had known the guys fora little while, and they said,
Hey, you know, we're really goodat at doing the work, but we
can't get the business.
You seem to be able to get a lotof business, so let's do
something together.
And so uh uh we started doing atree business together, you
know, and I sold a lot of treework and I had a lot of

(08:03):
relationships with um someareas, some folks in some really
high-end areas, and um sometimesin those areas when you kind of
tap into them, it's like keepingup with the Joneses, and
everyone just has to have theirtrees trimmed.
And you know, we were reallyfortunate there, and uh so we,
you know, I was kind of runningthe construction and trees
parallel.
And um, I tell these tell a lotof folks in in my coaching

(08:27):
program that a lot of times withtrees that turns into bigger and
bigger projects because you maybe trimming a small Bradford
pier, or you may be taking outeight large, massive oaks, and
you need some heavy equipment toremove them, and then someone
sees you taking all these treesout with the equipment.
It looks like you're doing aclearing project, and they
approach you for that, and andthat's naturally just what
happened, you know.

(08:47):
And um, so we got we startedgetting land clearing projects,
and we had already bought theequipment that we were using for
the tree work, and then all of asudden the the grading side
started, you know.
And so what my idea was then waslike again, I'm still doing
construction at this point, andso my idea was well, I'll I'm

(09:11):
running these businesses, andand and at that point, like you
know, my pops was kind ofrunning the construction side
that had the main guy on thetree side that was running it,
and I had hired some guys thatwere doing the grading and
they're running it, and and andour sale was you know, you hire
you you there's one name, oneknown name that can come in and
build the house, clear the lot,do the whole nine guards,

(09:32):
maintain the propertyafterwards, you know, and um
that worked really great becauseyou know, in in in the
blue-collar world, it's hard tofind folks that you can trust,
you know, and umentrepreneurship.
That's what they want.
Like at the end of the day, likepeople you people just want you
to make their life easier, youknow, and if they can trust you
and pick they can pick the phoneup and call you and have

(09:52):
whatever service done, and it itnaturally it just works really,
really well, you know.
And then like I said, I was justkind of getting burnt out on the
on the construction.
And I maybe because I have doneit my whole life, it's just it
just wasn't as sexy anymore.
And um still really enjoyeddoing the trees and and the
grading because it was all newand fascinating, and I was

(10:13):
learning a lot and um no emotionbecause no one cares typically
about their tree that's havingto be removed.
Sometimes there's a little bitof sentimental there, but um the
the as far as the dirt goes,like nobody cares until the
house is being built, you know.
So all right, dude.
So uh and typically like noone's even on the site with you

(10:35):
because they don't even want toshow up until foundation's
coming out of the ground.
So we get to come in, not haveanyone looking over our
shoulder, come in and developthe whole site and get out of
there and collect a check andand have no one like fussing at
me because the painter wasn'tthere today, or we couldn't get
the plumbing fixture that theywanted, you know.
Um, so I just leaned into that.

(10:57):
And and really at the end of theday, like if you uh you have
more volume with the dirt workthan you do with a custom home,
obviously.
But with the volume with thevolume, if you look at gross
profits, um, the dirt work wasmuch better than all the stress
and everything that came withthe custom home stuff, you know?

(11:17):
So we were very analyticalbefore making a decision of
obviously after building youknow stuff up over time, you
don't want to disquander that.
But um, yeah, we decided to stopdoing construction.
Um I sold the tree division tothe fellow that was uh kind of
leading it up and was justsolely going into dirt and
exhibition, you know.

(11:39):
Um we've we did that now forseveral years, and um the the
tree business that I had sold, Isold it on a uh a a profit
payback.
That was not working well anylonger because that fella
developed a couple habits andthat wasn't going good and the
profit wasn't there because theyou know when when you do any

(12:02):
business, you you work everysingle day, you know, and and
and you kind of have to becauseuh your projections are off of
working every day like we were.
And that that was just his wayof running the business was
different.
So we ended up taking thatbusiness back.
So we've got the treaty businesskind of just sitting, you know,

(12:23):
on the sideline, and we don'tadvertise for it.
People call us from obviouslythe years and years and years
that we have builtrelationships, and um I I really
enjoy that part of it too, youknow.
I'm a little bit of anadrenaline junkie and uh like
doing that, and the the marginsthere can be absolutely insane.
Um, and it's a lot of fun, youknow.

(12:44):
So, and we have all theequipment from any size job, you
know, all the way up to biglarger jobs, which then
typically will just funnel intothe grading side.
Um, so yeah, we just do the treestuff every once in a while when
we get calls for it, and uhequipment sits when we don't,
it's all paid for, and uh justpush the dirt work.

SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
Wow.
That's uh that's something tosay, dude.
All your equipment's paid for,dude.
That's uh well all the treeequipment is.

SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
I just bought I just bought three new cap machines uh
for the site work side.
So those that stuff's new.
Um we've got out on a four-yearterm, but all the other stuff is
paid for, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
Yeah, no, I'm I'm the same here.
I'm either people give me crapall the time, I run a lot of
newer gear, but I'm a paymentsversus repairs guy.
I'm not a knowledgeable jump inthere, fix it.
No, I want a service package onmy machine.
If it's down, hey, I've even gota loaner in my paperwork on my
cat stuff.
Hey, this thing, come get it,fix it.
It's under warranty, it's yourproblem.

(13:43):
I did the same thing with likeall the way up to our 360, like
our big gear.
Same deal.
If I bought it new, put servicepackages on it.
I can I don't want a$3,500random nope uh thousand hour,
you know, the service has tohappen for the machine to hold
its value.

SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
But I I know I'm jumping off there, but no,
you're you're you're 100% right.
I'm I'm 1,000 with you on that,man.
And that's why, you know, we'rewe're replacing some of the
older stuff with new stuff.
And and that's also why, ofcourse, we went with CAD.
Is uh there's no questionsasked, man, when when the
machine goes down.
If you've got the warrantypackage with loaner, I mean it's
they're out there at seveno'clock the next morning, no

(14:20):
matter what time you call them.
Uh they get it repaired veryquickly.
And if they know they're notgonna be able to, they're
bringing you a new machine so itdoesn't hold you up.
I'll I'll pay any amount ofmoney for that versus uh an old
clunky machine that you don'tknow when it's gonna go down or
when you can get a mechanic tocome out and fix it, and when
you can get parts for it, youknow, and in the meantime,
you're looking like a ding-dongto your customer because you got

(14:42):
a machine broke on their job anddon't know when you're gonna
move forward with production.

SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
And you got three guys standing there picking
boogers and they can't really doanything because they need the
tool to do their job.
And they what people don'tunderstand early on when you're
jumping into the excavation, youstart machine ownership.
The number one thing you have toavoid is downtime.
It kills everything.
Uh it kills it for labor, itkills it for productivity, it

(15:09):
kills it from your customerstandpoint, going, oh, these
guys know what they're doing.
Don't get me wrong, there'sthere's a lot of lot of
gentlemen out there that havesome paid-off gear that know how
to work on it and keep it up,and they probably do a lot
better preventive maintenancethan most of us are used to
doing.
But that payment versus repairsconversation, I just recently

(15:29):
myself cycled out a 308, whichis I'm pretty sure you got 308
as well, do you not?
Yeah.
Uh being a utility man, thatthat boom, articulating boom, is
like the utility guy's dream.
And we had 3200 hours on it, Ithink.
We bought it and a skid steer atthe same time.
And actually there are leases tobe specific, but they're sitting

(15:51):
there at that 3,200 hour mark.
Am I gonna pay these guys to putpipe and push dirt with it?
Or am I gonna be paying theseguys?
Although it's almost paid off.
I mean, that's where people'sarguments are like yeah, you
could almost not have a payment.
But it's I I get, I get it,guys.
You're not gonna have a payment,but I would rather choose to
have my known cost per month forthose guys be able to get in

(16:14):
that machine, do their job, anddrive away, then oh hey, and it
still happens, but hey, it's noskin off our back.
We make a phone call to the guywe trust, run out there, fix it
up, and we'll explain to thecustomer what's going on.
But that's literally, I see allthe time guys get in early and
they're like, they want to buyall this used gear, and they'll

(16:35):
go to the bank to buy used gear.
And I'm like, guys, twice twiceupside down.
Yeah, exactly.
And they and and it's a it'sexperience, right?
Education's expensive, butexperience is freaking
priceless, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
But and there's there's a time and place for it.
Like we've got a stump dump,there's older equipment there.
If it goes down, it doesn't costus anything, you know.
And and you know, there'sthere's other small projects
that we will keep something oldon, you know, where it's it's
where production isn't gonnascrew you up if if something
happens, you know.
And and really you and Iunderstand that, but someone who

(17:08):
doesn't understand their theirtrue cost to do business doesn't
understand how impactful it iswhen that machine does go down
and now you've got guys juststanding around and you're
eating up overhead costs, youknow.
If you truly know your numbers,the the argument of old and
repairs or brand new with apayment is it's it sells itself,
you know.

SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
And especially now, I just did an episode, I think
it actually comes out today aswe're recording this with a
gentleman who is changing up thegame, uh, Uber for literally
heavy mechanics, but literallywith all the software
integration with new stuff,what's the point of trying to
work on it yourself?
I mean, if I don't care if yougo change a hose now, it's a

(17:50):
sealed system and they got tocome in and 1900 bucks, please.
And you're like, God bless,dude.
I just want to work on thisthing.
And when when I eventually atthe life cycle of this machine,
then I'm gonna have to bedealing with computer problems
on top of mechanical problems.
I'm like, no, I don't even wantto own it, man.
Yeah, like here you go.
This is your freaking problem.
I just need to use it to getthis job done.

SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
That so the I think there, you know, there could
have been an argument a longtime ago when like everything
was mechanical versus you know,something brand new.
But anything in between therewhere you're dealing with
mechanical and having to docalibrations with computers and
stuff, like dude, it's it it'simpossible, man.

(18:33):
You know, and then you're forcedto go through the dealership,
you know, where if like you gotan old 4BT motor machine, like
you know, most of us guys canwork on something like that, but
anything in between, uh, man,you it's impossible.
So it yeah, it it it's everytime, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
You gotta have them, you gotta have them out, you
gotta have them to scan it,diagnostic, and it's multiple
trips, then you know, they'rethey're coming out the scan,
going back to get a part.

SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Yeah, it's crazy, man.
We I've got a what's that?

SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
I said you're eating mileage the whole time when he's
going back to get his air filterbecause he didn't think to, oh
well, this is what's going onwith the machine, and that the
level of technician we aregetting nowadays, my guy, isn't
the same 20 years ago when youwere trying true.
You do, man.

SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
They go to the computer, the computer tells
them the steps to do, and theygo run back, grab whatever the
part is, they fix symptoms, notthe problem.
Uh, don't get me started, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
It's a me and you both, right?
Okay, so literally, you havebeen on a job site your entire
life.
We were uh talking just a momentthere on the intro.
That's kind of how I grew upwith my grandfather in downtown
Toronto, and it's just theinspiration to I'm assuming
that's why you went off on yourown, but I wanted to hit a key

(19:52):
point that I also did in myentrepreneurial jump is that you
went to your family-ownedbusiness and said, Hey guys, I
love and respect you enough.
I want it, I want something tomotivate me to do better for
you.
Hey, I think it's this, totallyrespect their decision.
I did the exact same thing.
I was uh I was running about 20guys for my best man at my

(20:16):
wedding, dude.
Uh, running an entire county,moving all these gas meters for
the public safety commission.
I mean, 15 piece equipment,bunch of people had everything
under control, driving my ownpickup, paying for my own gas,
getting an hourly rage.
And so I just, hey man, look, II've we've gone from here and
and now we're here.
Proof is in the pudding.

(20:38):
But hey, man, like, is are isthere a plan for me?
What's the plan?
And I had a water and sewerbackground straight out of high
school, man.
I didn't go to college.
I jumped off working formunicipality, chasing water main
brakes, fixing freaking forcemain shooting poop 20 feet in
the sky, like crazy stuff.
And so I learned through thecity and the municipality of

(20:59):
more repairing a distributionsystem rather than putting new
installs in.
But I jumped over to thecontractor side because I
figured that, you know, themunicipality game, it's great
for a guy that wants to be there30 years, uh, benefits and work
eight to five and not doanything with his life.
That this wasn't me, my guy.
I got my CDL, exited out of themunicipality game, got in the

(21:19):
contractor game.
But I went through two othercontractors, learned a little
bit, six, eight months, theirwork dried up, whatever.
I'd been with this guy almosttwo years at this point.
And I go to him and I'm like,hey man, this is 12 plus years
ago when I say this, but heyman,$17 an hour ain't gonna cut
this no more.
I'm running everybody, I'mdealing with the meetings with

(21:40):
the with the commission and theand the entity, like maybe a
truck, if if if you don't mind,you know.
And he looked at me and he said,You get paid more than I do.
And so it wasn't uh, yeah, itwas pretty rough to take.
And I proposed, hey man, let'suse my water license and my
water knowledge.
You've got this gas division,let me start uh bidding on some

(22:03):
new installs and and truly wentto them because I loved and
respected them, just like you,you know.
And I didn't want to step on anytoast, but when I got that
response, I was just like, Yeah,are you kidding me?
But it goes to show if we're notopening our minds as
entrepreneurs and understandingthose conversations, there's a
lot of good people that willcome through.

(22:25):
I mean, you probably can admitthis.
I know I can.
I've lost good people because ofmy crappy systems or the way
I've yeah, you know, I uh youyou push good people away and
you don't even know yet thatyou're doing it until two years
down the road, something hitsyou, and you're like, oh, that's
why that guy repeatedly thiswould get very frustrating.
So, anyways, I started my own uhmy own thing, and it here we

(22:49):
are.
But I just thought it was sofunny how we both were at the
tippy top very quickly.
I went straight to the top veryquickly and resonated there,
excelled, the company greweverything, and we just hey man,
want to be a part of this.
How can I be a part of this?
Nah, this is this is just gonnabe us.

(23:10):
Okay, no problem.
Can you help me out here?
Like raise something.
So went on my different path.
But I just thought it was coolthe connotation between our
stories that we bothrespectfully loved and admired
where we came from.
Yes, it was just a job.
Yes, it could have been acareer.
You never know what it couldhave been, but God sure has a

(23:30):
different plan in both of ourlives, I guess.
But uh, I just wanted to shinelight on that.
So past that, man.
You're climbing freaking trees40 feet in the sky over people's
houses, which I think you'refreaking nuts for.
But you know, you I heard youthe other day, the
oversaturation in ourmarketplace and the excavation,

(23:51):
not so much in the utility side,and hopefully we can help guys
get into the pipe side as wewere talking earlier.
But, you know, the tree workside of things, I've got a
question for you because isn'tit pretty low barrier of entry?
Even lower than uh$18,000,$2,000a month.
You just got to have a guy to beable to climb up consistently.
Now, don't get me wrong,professional, things are

(24:12):
falling, extremely dangerous.
I couldn't imagine theinsurance, but I mean, a couple
chainsaws, and you're off to theraces, right?
Or am I just overthinking this?

SPEAKER_01 (24:21):
No, you're 100% correct.
So the I I think the biggerchallenge obviously is the skill
set there, you know.
It's uh number one, you know,there's lots of trees you can
just cut from the ground, butthere's a certain amount of
skill set with that.
I mean, obviously, there's uh alarge percentage of America's
funny in some videos.
You just the option of that, youknow.

(24:43):
Um, but then once you startclimbing, there's multiple
layers of of new skill sets.
You know, of just getting to thetop of the tree and coming back
down, you know, climbing safelyis one thing.
Um, now you also have all thethings that you had to know out
on the ground of you know,looking up and assessing the
tree and kind of understandingwhere things are gonna go when

(25:05):
you cut them.
And then if it's over a home,that then you have another layer
of of rigging and roping thingsdown safely, you know, and then
there's another layer if you'regonna use mechanical stuff with
cranes and stuff like that, youknow.
But oh my god, as far as likegetting started with it, uh, I
mean, yeah, dude, if you have achainsaw and some climbing gear

(25:26):
and um the balls, a ball wasn'tgonna say it, but um, yeah, a
big set of nuts, then you canyou can make really great money,
and that's really all you gottahave.
There's actually a lot of treejobs that we sell uh as cut and
leaves, also.
You know, like there's a lot ofhomeowners here in in the
mountains that um will eitherburn the wood or want to do the

(25:46):
cleanup themselves and save somemoney.
And so they just say, hey man,get it on the ground.
We work for a lot of contractorsin our area, even other dirt
guys that um, you know, theydon't feel as comfortable doing
some of the removals, and butthey're they're they got
excavators and they say, Heyman, just come and get these
things on the ground for me.
And so you don't even need stufffor cleanup on a lot of these

(26:07):
jobs, but let's say you do onsome of the residential.
I mean, you go in and get thingson the ground, and you know, you
and two two laborers or I mean,really, if you want to do it
yourself, just depends on howmuch you know overhead you want,
and you got a trailer.
I mean, you've just led thestuff out on a trailer and get
it out of there.
I mean, there's that the the wayto start is is is next to
nothing, you know, and then youcan go all the way up to
multi-million dollar cranes andgrapple saws and all kinds of

(26:30):
stuff like that.
But to start, you don't have tohave any bit of that stuff.
It can make really great cashflow doing it because a lot of
these jobs are you know a couplehours long and you can do two or
three jobs a day and you know,bring.
I mean, if I if if I juststopped doing everything and I
didn't have any equipment rightnow, there's every single day I
get calls for um cut and leavesthat I could sell for 500 to a

(26:54):
thousand bucks a day or or ormore.
I mean, you know, and uh I meanthat's great cash flow for
someone who has no overhead, youknow.

SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
And the in the margins, my guy, there is no
overhead, there's no machines,there's no fuel, there's no
downtime, there's no stupid.
I mean, don't get me wrong, youcan definitely cut the tree the
wrong way.
I could only imagine that.

SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
That's the thing is like risk risk and reward, you
know what I mean?
Like if it goes wrong, it's it'stypically not like ooh, that
sucks.
It's like number one, it's ourname is destroyed because we put
something on the house, and andhopefully we've got great
insurance, but even with that,you're gonna be all over the the
all the forums, you know.

(27:34):
Um, and and that's best casescenario.
Worst case scenario is you'veyou've lost your life because
you did something foolish in atree, you know, or even even
even cutting them from theground, man.
I've I know lots and lots ofguys from doing this for so long
that have either lost their lifeor paralyzed or majorly injured,
you know.
So it it is risk and reward.
Yeah, there's no almost nobarrier to entry, but the risk

(27:58):
there is is insane as well, youknow.
But but the reward the rewardtoo though is the the the almost
unlimited amounts of quick cashhe could make, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
Literally, dude.

SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
I'm a gambler.
I like that I like the risk foraward game, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
I do like the roll, I do like to roll the dice
myself, Mr.
Seaman.
There's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 (28:23):
But I gamble every day.

SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Well, I I'm assuming you got, you know, you set your
seat and in that air conditionedskid steer cab a couple of
times, and you're like, well,you know, I might be able to
figure this out too and move thelogs and you know, talk about
that kind of transition.
What when you're first gettingstarted in the excavation space,
it's so hard to race to thebottom.

(28:48):
And I think you also hitsomething earlier on the call,
my guy.
It's know your cost.
I get phone calls, I know you doall the time.
It's like, hey man, how do I itcould be a guy just brand new,
just bought a skits here?
How do I even price this?
And well, number one, it itdefinitely takes some repetition
of doing a couple of jobs andjust flat screwing it up.

(29:11):
I'll do it for 2,500 bucks.
But when you do it for 2,500bucks, calculate and tally
everything that equals to$3,800and you lost your butt on that
job.
Now you can take those numbers,use them against yourself, and
go next time this job similaritycomes around comes around, this
is kind of the price point.
But if you're not tracking thosecosts, if you're not job costing

(29:35):
and the big jump into thecommercial world, and I'll tell
them myself and as the channelknows here, that it took me
years to figure out as I uh resispace, year three, year four.
I don't know how you you handlethe resi space.
That's where we're going next.
But like I knew as soon as Iwanted to make that next scaling

(29:55):
jump, I wanted to get off to thecommercial side.
Number one fact was.
Was there's a set of freakingplans, and this is what we get
paid to do.
Change orders with Resicustomers is like the biggest
nightmare for me.
And I know you deal with it allthe time, but back then, what I
didn't know, my guy, was clearexpectations up front lead to

(30:17):
clear conversations in themiddle of the project.
And contractually, if you havethat ironed out, you know, you
know whatever specifically couldhappen on this job.
It's talked about in theproposal.
Hey, if this does come about,this might transpire.
Here's the adder.
They know all up front.
I mean, at the end of the day,we're still underground

(30:38):
contractors.
You know what I mean?
But man, I wanted to scale andget into that freaking
commercial world because Icouldn't figure out.
And you're a lot better at it methat than me, obviously, because
I couldn't figure out to get theguys in the resie space to buy
into the owner's mindset andtaking that customers go out

(30:59):
there, consult.
Hey, this is where we're at.
This is what I think we can dowith the property.
Okay, thanks, uh, Mr.
Bob.
Go back, talk to the team.
Hey, Bob wants this.
But when Sally gets home andSally walks out there and talks
to your boys, I I mean Bob didnot talk about this.
We need this, this, and this.
And it's like, I just wanted topull my hair out, my guy.

(31:21):
And the guys that were workingfor me were doing fantastic
jobs.
You know, we're not definitelycleaning up, doing the extra
five and 10%, but we were goingthe five and 10% in the wrong
direction that Miss Sally didn'tlike, and I could never figure
that out.
I'd love to hear some insight.

SPEAKER_01 (31:37):
Yeah, so keep in mind um that starting doing the
construction, it is way, way,way, way, way worse with Sally
and Bob wanting to go differentdirections.
So I already had that backgroundum of of like having to deal
with that.
And uh, I guess dealing withthat for so many years, it it's

(31:59):
exactly what you said of likemake sure that during the seal,
you set the expectation of thisis extremely clear of what we're
doing.
We put it all in in and clearnotes.
There's no like weird verbiageof trying to weasel things into
the contract.
It's it's extremely deliberateso that if so you you, Mr.

(32:21):
Customer, understand exactlywhat I'm selling.
And if there's any questionsalong the way, we're going right
back to this contract.
Um, and then there's there'svariables that that we all know
we're gonna run into.
Uh the contract spells a lot ofthat out.
Um, and then there's also stuffin the contract that's like if
we get, you know, during thisproject and and there's

(32:45):
something someone doesn't likeand we have to pause and stop,
that time is being paid for aswell.
Because we we we can't go toanother job.
We're stuck here on your jobuntil you two make a decision.
I've even got verbiage, and andagain, this isn't like weird
fine print stuff.
This is very clear, deliberatestuff in the contract that says

(33:07):
if you don't have your ducks ina row with your HOA and your HOA
now comes and stops the project,it's you, Mr.
Customer, who's responsible forthat.
And that's not I say all of thisstuff verbally during the sale
in a manner that's like, hey, wewant to deliver the best job for
you.
We don't want any of theseholdups.
I don't want to cause you anymore money on on this because

(33:28):
we're we're already pricingthings on on the higher end of
stuff, so we don't want like abad feeling when we leave from
the customer, you know.
So we're we're trying to set allthis stuff up so that there is
no weird thing that happensalong the way.
And then the second thing islike let's say I I I missed that
target somehow, or the or thecustomer is they understand it,

(33:51):
but they're still trying to getsomething in there, which that
kind of is going back to likemaking sure you're working for
the right folks in in the firstplace, right?
You know.
Um, but let's say I let's say Imissed all that as the salesman
here.
Um my guys also understand thatlike a lot of this is sales and
psychology, which your guys haveto understand too, you know,

(34:12):
which is a real weird dichotomybecause these are all operators
and laborers, you know.
Um, but so I'm like constantlycoaching them on like what to
say to the customer if thecustomer approaches them and is
like, uh, can we go a littlefurther with that?
Or uh that that that just isn'tcan we move the dirt down to
here?
And uh, you know, I'll tell themhey, we nip it in the butt

(34:33):
immediately.
We don't do uh the let's do thisnow, and then there's 10 more
things that are gonna be addedbecause if the customer kind of
feels like they are now suedeingthe job in whichever direction
they want to go, they it's it'sagain it's weird psychology, but
like now they're controlling,and when you lose the control of
the flow of the job, you mightas well just pack your shit up

(34:56):
and leave and give them theirmoney back because there's it's
never gonna get back on the goodterm after that.
Uh so it's it's really justsetting the expectation and
knowing to make sure that yourguys know the verbiage and when
to pump the brakes on hey, wethere that's outside of our
contract, you know.
And and there's nicer ways tosay it, of course, you know.
It in uh but yeah, we you youjust can't let it get too far

(35:19):
off the path before you're wayoff the path and you can't get
it back.

SPEAKER_00 (35:23):
No, it's dude, solid point because you're right.
I train my supers all the timein the field and the in the
commercial world, like GCs,superintendents in those job
trailers, they will try not allof them, but a lot of them,
they'll they'll play us officeagainst the field guys all the
time.

(35:44):
Well, I talked to your office,they said it was all good.
Oh, yeah, they said it was allgood.
Just go ahead and do that.
And he's looking at that my guysknow through experience, like we
have learned to your point, likeyou know, Sally and Bob back in
the house building days, I don'tknow how you ever build houses.
This guy could not do that.
I I would try my absolutedamnedest for the folks, but

(36:06):
man, it would be it'd be prettyrough from the emotional.
So I mean, you've kind ofalready got that figured out,
there's no doubt about it.
But when you're still trying toproject the same thing over and
over again to your team and yourteam's out there working
diligently hard for you becausethat's what you've asked them to
do, it gets it gets monotonouswhen homeowners are coming out

(36:28):
there changing up.
So you have to set yourself sometype of standard and procedure
for your guys to follow.
I wish you would have told methat eight years ago, John, damn
it, you know, because it wouldhave helped me so much to
understand.
Because in the early years,maybe this is just me, but you
you you feel like you don't wantto show them that you're gonna

(36:50):
make a little bit of money.
And so you're trying to, oh no,here's you know, it's five
grand.
And they're like, well, wait aminute, the gravel's only, you
know, 5500 or 550 bucks.
Like, where's all thistransparency?
More transparency you can build,and more clear expectations are
up front, most of the time, uh,it's going to lead to more money
because you have clearexpectations set up and they're

(37:13):
gonna respond well to that.
But you're exactly right.
If your guy in that machine endsup telling your customer, oh
yeah, sure, we got it, well,then you just look like a dick
when you show up and go, Well,actually, it's gonna cost you
another 2,500 bucks.
And they're like, Yeah, or yourguy said it.

SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
Yeah, or if you know, you've like you said, like
you had these clear reels ofthis is what things are costing,
and now your guys over heredoing shit really for free.
Then it's like, Well, what isthe true cost of him doing that
over there?
And why was he so willing to goand do that?
Like now, these numbers you justlost your validity for all the
the itemized numbers that youtook the time to sold to sell

(37:53):
and build trust with yourcustomer, you know.
So, um and and I I I you know, alot of this, like I keep saying,
is psychology when and and it'snot manipulation, it's just
transparency and understandinghow other folks think and how
your your what your words meanto them, you know.
So when we say stuff like thison social media, people are

(38:15):
like, oh, you're manipulatingpeople, and it's like, no, dude,
we are setting clear guidelinesof what we're doing and what our
expectation is.
There's no manipulation.
Uh it's it's manipulation whenyou try to just hide shit from
them.
Yeah, and yeah, and then youyour guy got does go and do
something, and you show up andsay, Oh, well, that's gonna be
2,500 bucks.

(38:36):
Like, dude, you just burnt thatcustomer for life, they're never
gonna work for you, they'renever gonna hire you again to
come and do stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (38:42):
So neither is their cousins or any of the bridge
club that they're a part of, oranybody on their ball team, like
that goes so far.
And when you get stuck in thosesituations, you're like, nope.
I mean, if my guy said it, Ican't tell you how many times I
did it.
Yep, I understand that's that isgonna cost me some money, but I
need you to understand that's onus.

(39:03):
I apologize, we're gonna get thejob done.
But to your point, my guy, justlike your HOA line item in your
proposal, and as it's going out,we had the same thing with civil
engineers on our side, and GCsdon't want to sign it half the
time.
And I don't, I'm getting to apoint where I just do not care
because civil engineers, we'recoming across an engineering

(39:24):
epidemic in this country.
It's like rush it throughdesign, get it into the
contractor's hands, give me theprice.
And you're looking at it andyou're like, well, this is like
60% of the way, guys.
I can't even, I can't even giveyou material types.
Like, you're not calling outmeter sizing and all of this,
and so you start pushing back,but then you you you okay, say
we take that job, we end upgetting 100% CDs, and we get off

(39:46):
into the job contractually, andthen you really start showing
the engineer mistakes, and it'syou sitting there waiting for
him because he's got that fancypiece of paper saying that he
can draw this crap together.
So you're waiting on him.
You got Trecos sitting outthere, dozers, skid loaders, all
of it, dump trucks waiting, yougot a concrete guy you're
pushing back, like all of thisis happening.

(40:08):
So now, from things that we havelearned, no, not a lot of the
time can you just pick up, youknow, 500,000 pounds of gear
between four units, five units,and just move it across town.
It's not feasible.
Mobilization is expensive.
And so if you're sitting therewaiting on this engineer or HOA
says, wait, wait, wait, youdon't have this permit, that

(40:29):
permit, this permit, it costs usand it costs you guys.
Listen to this, and you have toprepare yourself.
You're like, how does how doescommercial when you get into
commercial, why do they hand usa 50-page contract?
Well, they've learned along theway.
What happens and they've learnedfrom experiences?
Stick that in the proposal forthe next go round.
And guess what?

(40:49):
They're not all hard line item.
If they have some validity towhy this or this needs to come
out of that contract, willing towork with you.
But at the same time, there isstandards that we have set
because of$50,000,$100,000mistakes that we've made to get
to this point.
You know what I mean?
So, but and one last thing isthe go-no-go matrix with bad

(41:12):
owners, dude, bad customers ingeneral.
I have learned the freaking hardway, my guy.
And now on the commercialsector, we we we have like five
buckets.
An owner is one of them.
Have we worked for them?
Do we know somebody that'sworking for them?
How do they pay?
Uh, are they just gonna be upthe engineer's butt the entire

(41:32):
time, changing the whatever thecase may be?
But on the resie side too, Istill have customers that we've
worked for nine, 10 years agothat could call me today, and I
don't care if it's$500, we'regonna go take care of it because
they called me.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, am I gonna pull the guysoff a commercial job to go do a
$500 gig?
No, but we are damn sure gonnacommunicate and say, yes, Miss

(41:52):
Sally, we got you.
We'll get that driveway fix thatwe did seven years ago, add you
a little and prove it.
But you've got to stray awayfrom them stinking bad owners
that would also, you know,alleviate some of these
struggles that we're dealingwith, you know?
Yeah, for sure.
And um next thing, my guy, goahead.

SPEAKER_01 (42:13):
I I I it maybe you're getting to this, but I I
think earlier you said youwanted to ask why am I doing
residential and not commercial,right?
So that's yeah, sir.
Go ahead.
And not to jump ahead if that'swhat you're gonna get to, but
you know, everything that you'retalking about of all these
issues with the engineers andstuff like that, is that's

(42:34):
exactly why I don't like doingcommercial.
Like I want the decision makers,the customer, and me.
That's it.
Uh, because at the end of theday, I'm sure it sounds like
you've been in this spot a bunchof times where an engineer
handed you a plan or thecontractor handed you a plan
from the engineer who rushedthrough it just to get some

(42:54):
numbers.
And then, you know, long storyshort, you get to a point you're
like, we can't move forwardanymore because we don't these
things aren't called out to uson this paper.
I need these answers, dude.
That's you know who looks bad,right?
It's not the engineer, yeah.
It's it's you because theythink, well, why didn't why
didn't why didn't we have allthat before we started?
You know, and the the engineerdoesn't get crucified for it,

(43:18):
you know, and and so then it,you know, then the relationship
starts to get a little funkywith you and the contractor, you
know.
And um, and dude, who's itcosting money?
It's costing you the money, it'snot costing the engineer any
money, you know.
Uh so we have done a lot ofcommercial and and and we still
do a lot of commercial, uh, butI prefer the residential because
I prefer it just be a one-on-onerelationship.

(43:40):
I don't like there to be a bunchof people in the middle that can
deter how my job goes, you know.
Um, and and and yeah, the otherthing is just the making sure
you work for the right folks.
And and in the beginning, it'skind of hard, right, to be able
to pick and choose who you'reworking for when you need the
leads and you need work.
But but what I tell guys in thecoaching program all the time is

(44:00):
like, I know it feels like youhave to do that job because you
have to get the reviews and youhave to get your name out there
and you have to get cash flowand you got to keep your guys
busy.
But the your gut feeling when itfeels like, man, I shouldn't do
this.
100% of the time I have lostmoney on those jobs, or maybe I
thought I made money on it, andthen it came to bite me in the

(44:22):
ass six months down the road,you know.
And so it's like, I know itfeels like you need to do it,
but I promise you, if you walkaway from it, there's someone,
there's someone better waitingfor you, you know.
So it's it takes a lot ofdiscipline, man, early on to be
able to do that.
But um man, I wish I wished Ilistened to my gut on every
single time it told me not towork for that person.

SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
Dude, same here, my guy.
Literally, same here.
And it's just so cool to hearour two different perspectives.
You know, they audience gets tolook at both sides of us anytime
they want, you know.
We we try to be as forthgivingwith information as possible,
and so we're kind of puttingourselves out there, but there's
we're we're about the same agein in in business, but we've

(45:07):
gone two different routes, andbut it's that was my number one,
and it makes sense for exactlywhat you're saying.
You've from your experience inlife, you've you have the
homeowner stuff you've dealtwith, you know how to process it
to your guys, but you that'sthat's so cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 (45:25):
And and just pick your pick your battles, right?
Like, I'm choosing my battlewith the residential stuff,
you're choosing your battle withthe engineers, like what
whatever your skill set is, andif and whatever you know to
navigate better, dude, just justdo that.
Like, and and that's the thing,too.
Like, some guys just try to dotoo many different things, like
they want to be in in so manydifferent spaces, and and we get

(45:45):
it all the time.
Like, people on our social mediaare like, it's time to move up
to big projects.
Well, dude, I've been doing thisfor 11 years, dog.
If I wanted the the big project,I could be I just prefer to
stick to that's right, and Imake great margins at what I'm
doing, and I enjoy it, you know.
Uh it doesn't, it's not it's notfun for me to be on a job for
for months, you know, these bigcommercial jobs that that we've

(46:06):
done, you can go through oursocial media and find dude.
I get bored, like I don't liketo just it's cool because you
can then just send your guyswith the plan, and as long as
they're good, you're you don'thave to babysit the project.
And as a business owner, you cango either work on the business
or do whatever you want to do.
But um, man, I enjoy the hustleof the residential of like
selling work and meeting newpeople and meeting cool

(46:28):
customers, you know, and and andand developing all these sites,
man.
Like we touch so many propertiesthat after 11 years of doing
this in Western North Carolina,like it's pretty hard to go a
couple miles down the road andnot see something we've worked
on, you know, which is cool forme.
And that's why we use to dothat, you know.
And so it's really just choosewhat what works for you, man,

(46:49):
you know, and uh and and and andstick in a lane, you know.
And if you can build aresidential crew and a
commercial crew and it workedgreat, good.
But I think too many folks justtry to do everything, or there
there's a vanity thing wherewhere you know, like the guys
who are saying, Oh, go do thebig project.
Well, dude, the big projectmargins aren't always there, you

(47:09):
know what I mean?
Like you there's there's there'stons of guys that are bidding on
those, and there's tons ofqualified guys because it's
because it is easier like tojust give the guys a plan and
go.
So there's a lot of companiesthat will sell that job just to
have the little bit of cash flowcoming in from it, you know, and
have have have predictions ofmoney coming in versus where
residential is like a littlewonky sometimes, you know.

(47:31):
Um, but it's just not me, youknow, it's just it doesn't get
me excited, so it's not what Ido.

SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Well, and I think it also too, it comes from my pipe
background.
Like the only way I was gonna dopipe repetitively, don't get me
wrong, man.
Uh I I thoroughly enjoyed.
We have just like you know,yourself, you're up in those
mountains, and I'm gonna get tothat vanity piece here in just a
minute.
But up in those mountains, dude,there's something about sipping

(47:57):
a coffee, going to start thetrack going looking down those
mountain lines and going, man,this is so freaking cool.
And we've we've done some crazyprojects.
Uh, there's a larger White RiverLake right here called Beaver
Lake, and some crazy home sitesup and down, in and around, just
to get to the house.
And you got to build a road toget frame and semis in.

(48:19):
And I do miss that, man.
It's so much fun.
The guys enjoy it, they don'thave the pressure.
But honestly, as an entrepreneurin our space, I didn't know how
to scale uh straight up in theresie space, other than just
keep stacking crews.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
Yeah, and so like I was like,all right, if I can get this

(48:40):
pipe thing going, keep the resiestuff feeding, keep the resi
stuff feeding.
I will tell you the one of themistakes I made was killing the
reszi too early.
About year five, I was like, oh,we've got way too much
commercial work, let's go untilwinter hit, and then I'm sitting
here going, Oh god, we've gotthat one or two over there, but
uh, have you sold any work?
You know, and start it's justit's an absolute rat race for me

(49:04):
to scale in the resi world.
And I just kept feeling like Iwas running in circles, and so I
had some success.
Not saying uh uh uh I just ranwith it.
I mean, we struggle gold, bro,on every project we got on.
We got I'm not telling you, oh,we made plethors of money.
No, I got freaking punched inthe teeth every project because

(49:27):
I didn't know about this, Ididn't know about that, I didn't
know about this insurance.
And so, but you're right, onceyou pick that lane and stay in
that lane, that's the thing Isee, guys.
They want to stray.
Well, this looks great for sixmonths, yeah.
In that six months, you're justgonna get punched.
You you need to use thosepunches as experience to move
up.

SPEAKER_01 (49:46):
You're gonna pay for your education somehow, dude.
So when you you you're you'realmost over the cusp of learning
in that six months, and you likea ding-dong, go a different
direction to go learn more shit,you know.
Like learn that, get going withthat, make some money.
Yeah, I don't like gettingpunched to the teeth, bro.
You know, like I'll I'll do itlong enough until I'm profitable

(50:09):
and I'm I'm I don't yeah, I'mnot I don't like navigating back
and forth, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (50:14):
I've learned a lot enough at this point.
I've um learning every day, butthe vanity business thing like
you're talking about, dude,that's exactly it's so true.
And especially on social media,yes, we can pick them apart
pretty quickly.
And when you're building thisbig thing for views and it looks
great, and but you ain't got nomonies in the bank, and you

(50:36):
ain't got no systems, and yourpeople are pissed off.
Man, you look like you got itall together.
And and don't get me wrong,dude.
At one point, I was absolutelythere.
I was on this scale grow, anduh, we'll probably talk more as
to why I did that so fast,probably a little bit more, uh
coming up in a couple of weeks.
But long story short, my dude, Ihad to build these four or five

(50:59):
crews, and I had to have this,and I had to have that, and I
had to have everything rightnow, and that's that is not the
case, man.
And as I was building thisthing, I thought I was just
rising to the top, everything'sgreat, everybody's happy, and
then all of a sudden this guy'spissed off and he's gone.
This guy that's been here solong, he keeps coming to me with
the same issue.

(51:19):
And I'm like, I keep correctingit, don't I?
You need systems, you needprocesses, you need SOPs to run
a freaking business to have anytype of freedom as an
entrepreneur.
If you want them set up forsuccess, you got to start
building those systems.
And how do you build thosesystems?
Know your cost, job cost whileyou're on the project, so your
estimator knows what thefreaking estimate for the next

(51:42):
project.
So you stand to make a littlebit of money before you even get
out there because you can't takea bad number off the desk and go
turn it into a good number inthe field.
I promise you you cannot do it.
I have uh learned the very, veryhard way.
But knowing those numbers, dude,and I talk about very heavily on
this show, is inside internalaccount reporting.

(52:04):
Accounting is everything.
And if you don't have it every30 days, you don't know what
your business is doing.
And for years, dude, I didn'teither.
I mean, straight up.
I didn't.
And and it took me going out andfinding the help and going, hey,
I really don't know what I'mdoing.
And I think that's what a lot ofguys are like shameful or
prideful to do.
Like, I'm not an accountant.

(52:26):
My wife tried her butt off to bean accountant, dude.
She was a great bookkeeper, CFO,all the things, but she's not
that.
She is an incredible mother tomy children and an incredible
wife.
And I would love for her to dothat and be my business partner
up here rather than waiting onuh her to update uh receivables

(52:46):
and and payables so I can havean accurate report.
And so I've I've I've reallystrived hard to make sure I
understand where we're spendingthe money, but that's where I
see a lot of guys make mistakes,man.

SPEAKER_01 (52:59):
Yeah, me too, man.
In in the coaching program, iteven goes back to like the
everyone's question is uh how doI get better leads?
Or, you know, what's the leadflow?
And I'm like, fuck that.
What's your numbers?
You know, don't even ask meabout all the other stuff, dude,
until we know what your numbersare because you don't even know
what you can go spend togenerate leads right now.
Uh and and like you saidearlier, like they're asking,

(53:22):
they're asking, how do I pricethis job or price that job?
Don't worry about what themarket analysis for the job is.
Worry about what your cost to goand perform the job is first,
and then let's compare that towhat the market will dictate you
can charge.
You know, but these guys areworried about like what the
market says they can charge whenthey're overhead because the
vanity thing, right?

(53:43):
They they've got this big badasstruck that they don't need.
They've got all these newmachines that they didn't have
to have right right out thegate.
And now they they have to chargeso much, if they knew their
number, they have to charge somuch that it's over the market
analysis, you know?
Or they they stick to what themarket will allow for them to

(54:03):
charge and they're losing moneyon every single job.
They think they're making money,but by the time they pay all
their bills at the end of themonth, they're sitting there
with no money in their account,or they can't pay their bills
because they just went off themarket.
So I tell them right out thegate like, know what your
overhead is.
No one knows their true overheadever.
Know what your overhead is andknow what it costs for you to go
perform the job, and then let'sworry about what the job should

(54:25):
cost and how to get more ofthem, you know.
But they're they're startingbackwards.
So these guys want all theseleads coming in.
That's what they keep asking me.
How do I get more leads?
How do I keep getting moreleads?
And they're going and doing thejob for the lead and losing
money on it.
Like, forget the lead, dude.
Let's know your numbers firstand then get qualified lead, you
know?
Like, let's reverse engineerthis thing a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (54:48):
Just just the tad and the you want to know how you
get more leads, guys?
Do better work every singletime.
That's literally the number oneanswer.
Every single lead and everysingle opportunity that you turn
to contract.
I say it on this show all thetime.
Do I'm not saying this, do thisfor free, but the extra little

(55:09):
five percent here and therealong that job that's going to
make that job look fully andcomplete the first time the
customer walks it, I promiseyou, is the biggest lead
generator that you can freakinghave in your resie business
starting off.
There is no doubt about it.
Because when she goes to bridgeclub or he goes to uh hang out
at the gym with his buddies,man, dude, I'm thinking about

(55:30):
putting in a pool.
Hey, dude, I had I had John,dude.
He made this entire freakingarea ready for a pool on the
side of a goat's bluff.
And dude, you need him.
Call him.
He did an exceptional job.
And not just with that, dude,way he stacked my rack wall and
asked exactly and put it, dude.
I'm telling you, you won't gowrong.
And then all of a sudden, youget your phone phone ringing.

(55:52):
And and people don't, I I guessput that together, but quality
of work is everything whenyou're first starting out.
And word of mouth is true.
Yeah, there's so many differentlead gen softwares and put your
money here, and you get 100leads, like casino machines, and
like, oh my god, dude, it's soannoying.

(56:12):
And um thank God there's thingslike Thumbtack out there that
you can go visit, thumbtack.comslash pro, jump on there.
And if you're struggling inbetween this part of this
contract to this part of thiscontract, and you need to fill a
little gap, that's what thoselead gens are for.
But if you're just basing, heyman, I need more leads, I need

(56:35):
more leads.
No, you need to convert someleads.
Let me know your cost on thatproject.
Did you make money?
Did you not?
And tell me how you're gonna doit better the next time before I
give you five more leads,please.

SPEAKER_01 (56:47):
Because I was there myself, dude.
Yeah, same.
I you know how I know to coachis I've done it.
I've been there, I got halfwaythrough a job and I realized
shit, I'm I'm gonna lose moneyon this.
And and and what do you do?
You let you either keep losingmoney to perform the job to 100%
and exceed the customer'sexpectation, or you can make the

(57:08):
decision of, okay, let me justrush to get to the end of this
so I don't lose as much money,and then there goes your
cheerleader.
You know, you're that now youdon't have that person that's
gonna go to the gym and sell thenext pool for you, you know.
So if you know your numbers andyou know to price accordingly,
and you can get to the finishline and still be making money
and deliver the quality job,then it's gonna turn into more

(57:30):
leads.
But if you didn't price it rightin the first place, it's hard
for even an honest man, dude, toget to the finish line and not
skip corners because as abusiness owner, like you're just
trying to survive at that point,you know.
So it's dude, is this is just abig revolving circle, man, that
it all has to work together, youknow.

SPEAKER_00 (57:50):
It it does, man.
Don't worry, guys, conversationdoesn't end here.
Next week, John breaks down howdirt to dollars even started,
why content became a growthengine, and how his team showed
up for the community afterHurricane Helene.
Tune in, guys.