Transfer Window - The Good and the Bad

We sit down to look at Everton's transfer business so far, and speculate about what other deals we can do. Plus the latest on the takeover (or not) and a preview of the new season.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to episode 75 of the Blues Brothers Everton
podcast.
It's good to be back as wecrater towards the start of the
season.
It's a very Everton-.
It's good to be back as wecrater towards I don't know why
I'm saying crater, cratertowards the start of the season.
It's a very Everton optimisticway of looking at it.
It's like a plane crash.
That's how I'm feeling.
It's been great not thinkingabout Everton.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
But here we are.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
We're back.
Three of us are in the sameplace.
Myself, Ben and Adam are inFlorida.
Andy, are you at home?
Andy, I am at home in.
South Yorkshire.
Yes, excellent, so everyone'shere, so it's good to be back.
What have we got untilpre-season Two weeks?
We got Saturday, so we'rerecording this on Wednesday.

(01:01):
So we've got about 10 days.
We're recording this onThursday.
We're recording this onWednesday.
So we've got about 10 days.
We're recording this onThursday.
We're recording this onThursday.
I'm alone.
I definitely know what day itis.
I definitely didn't have tolook on Spotify to figure out
what episode it was.
Everything's under control.
We're definitely notresearching the players that
we've signed.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
In real time.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Come for the jokes, stay for the diligent
preparation.
Here's what we're going to do.
We're going to talk about thetransfer window mostly, and then
we'll get a little bit maybeinto the first game.
I don't know, but we'llprobably do another Bob before
then.
So first things first.
We're going to talk about theincoming.
First, we've signed fiveplayers, which is, you know, I
mean credit to Everton.
I guess generally They've donethe business, everton, I guess

(01:45):
generally they've done thebusiness.
So Ben is going to read to us,because some of us may not be
totally all over the facts uh,which the players we have signed
?

Speaker 2 (01:52):
so.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Ben give us the list, the players we have signed.
We have signed.
Jake O'Brien, who is a Irishcentre-back from Lyon, bought
somewhere in the region of 20million pounds.
Uh, ilman Ndai, who is a sortof number 10 or can play on the
wing up front, who is fromMarseille, for somewhere in the
region of £16 million, who waspreviously at Sheffield United,

(02:18):
we have signed.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Tim Oroganum, that's pretty, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
That's not going to be the worst pronunciation
you're going to hear out of anEverton fan of that name this
season.
I can tell you that I'd love tosit in the Gladys Street and
try and hear people.
What's the chant going to be?

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Timmy, timmy.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Timmy yeah, exactly who we have signed from Aston
Villa in our absolutely notPSR-motivated swap with Lewis
Dobbin.
We've signed Jesper Lindströmon loan from Napoli, who is a
winger, danish winger, who wasyour sort of classic Everton

(02:57):
reclamation project, was verygood in the Bundesliga.
I think Eintracht Frankfurt isthat who he played for, yeah,
and then he moved to Napoli andthen he went to Napoli and it
hasn't really worked out.
And then the fifth one is we'vegot Jack Harrison back on loan,
who obviously was with us lastseason.
So they are the five incomings.
Any immediate thoughts?
We'll talk about all of them,but any immediate kind of

(03:17):
thoughts on any of those playersfrom anybody that you've been
thinking about?
I mean my.
It's interesting to me becauseI think he was someone that we'd
gone after last season when hewent to Marseille and we're
obviously interested in.
So the fact that we've gonebacking for him and been able to

(03:41):
get a season is good.
The other thing is I think itactually impacts more than just
where he will play, because Ithink there is a view that
Decore is not the right playeranymore for that number 10 spot
behind the striker, because ifyou look at who he's gone after
in terms of Ndai and Lindstrom.
We've gone after attackingplayers who can also play in

(04:03):
that position.
So I wonder if what you end upwith is decoray playing slightly
further back.
But and die is interesting tome, o'brien is really
interesting because there wasquite a competition for his
signature, so apparently colmanhad quite a big impact on the
fact they ended up with us.
But if you talk to, you knowthe, the, the ex-scouting

(04:25):
community, o'brien is like avery well-regarded player.
I don't know anything about him, but people who follow this
stuff and take this stuffseriously are very impressed
with him as a player and thinkhe will be a really great fit
and also helps us in a positionwhere you wouldn't want to be
going into the season withMichael Keane and Mason Holgate

(04:46):
as your third and fourth centreback, really.
So I think they would be thetwo I would call out.
Lindstrom scored a nice freekick in the pre-season.
Yeah, it's only played very wellin that game.
I couldn't watch it becauseEverton couldn't stream it.
I don't know.
I figured something that wouldbe trivial to stream and
everything would fuck it up.
They'd fuck up recording thispodcast.
They would actually which we'vethus far?

(05:08):
We only did it once.
We only did it once.
We did it once, but one out of75 is not bad.
I would take that.
Adam, what are your thoughts onthose in general?
And then I want to dive into acouple in a bit more detail and
see what we think theimplication is.
Yeah, a couple of more, a bitmore detailed, to see what we

(05:28):
think the implications.
Yeah, um, yeah, so we also.
We also said before the uh inlike cover podcast ago about
that.
So what we need I think it wasour season review.
We all said how we've got aparticular way of playing and
the core, and then ben mentionedthe corey.
Playing a bit further back wasinteresting because him playing
behind the striker is not from acreative sense, it's from a
triggering press, yeah, of sense, and getting making late runs

(05:49):
into the bottom yeah, that's theend of crossing.
Yeah, so there's clearly been adifferent approach to uh, with a
bit more creativity and a bitmore flair, with the signing of
lynchstrom and um and then dieand obviously jack harrison, who
you know what's he got that forit, it's just sort of something
last season and Dye likes it.
Because he likes it, heobviously trusts him as a player

(06:09):
.
So there's obviously been quitea shift towards there.
And then I was a bit I mean, Iwon't go into too much detail,
but I was a bit surprised thatthe O'Brien signing only because
, you know, defence was our oneof our best assets last season
and helped us stay up Havingthat Karkovski and Branthwaite.

(06:30):
Now, you know it could be thatthat's because Branthwaite, when
we're looking at Branthwaite,is going to leave at some point.
Whether it's going to be likelythis summer now, but next
summer, you know more, very,very likely to be next summer.
So that could be the thinkingthere that they've just, you
know more very, very likely tobe next summer.
So that could be the thinkingthere that they've just, you
know, picked other clubs to adirect replacement early.
So yeah, um it's interestingbecause you know you can sort of

(06:53):
bend to your point about he, Imean, but he holgate, mason
holgate, and I don't want to beunkind to the guy.
He's not for me a premierleague, standard footballer, I
agree.
Right, you know he's.
I think you sort ofdemonstrated that at Sheffield
United where I think he had adrop down a level in terms of
you know, the average quality ofthe players, but still was not

(07:15):
really there.
I mean, I know he played abunch, but you know, so you can
see.
Obviously I assume theintention is to offload him.
Keane's interesting becauseSean Dush likes Michael Keane, I
like Michael Keane.
Actually, I like Michael Keaneas your fourth centre-back,
right, he's a perfectly goodsquad player, perfectly happy
with him.
I wouldn't feel comfortable orconfident if you know Brantway

(07:41):
or Tarkovsky got, you know,injured for a longer term.
I wouldn't feel that greatabout Keane starting for half a
season, right, longer term, Iwouldn't feel that great about
Keane starting for half a season.
Perfectly good, serviceablefourth centre-back, no problem.
And we've lost Godfrey's Donald.
Yeah, we've lost Godfrey'sDonald, but we can come on to
that.
Andy, any reaction from you?
I want to talk about ourattacking approach, but any

(08:01):
general thoughts on thosesignings before we do that?

Speaker 2 (08:04):
The general thoughts for me on those signings before
we do that.
The general thoughts for me arethat it's all remarkably
positive.
The last pod we did that wediscussed sort of potential
players that we could afford tolose and areas of the squad that
we need to strengthen.
Bear in mind the financial riskconstraints that the club are
operating within, trying to undothe lavish overspend of the

(08:27):
last few years.
I think the club have actuallydone a really, really good job
in terms of recruiting in areasthat we needed to strengthen.
I like O'Brien Again.
I heard the name before butdidn't know a great deal else
about him.
But it's good to know thatthere were sort of other clubs

(08:50):
in the running for him.
And I agree with Adam, that'sclearly a pre-emptive strike
with a view of losing brandweight, ideally not in this
transfer window, potentiallylater on in six or 12 months'
time.
Ideally not in this transferwindow, potentially later on in
six or 12 months' time.
And then we'll talk about theattacking options in a moment.

(09:14):
But one thing I mentioned aboutthat is my understanding is
that Lindstrom could function onthe right and that might mean
Harrison might play more as anumber 10.
That's one idea I've heard sortof mooted round, so I don't
know what your thoughts are onthat as a potential slight
change of the formation up atthe top end of the pitch.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
I think Indi is very likely to be the number 10 for
the second strike because that'ssort of his role.
I think Harrison will probablysee him play less because I
think I imagine he will probablyplay McNeil albeit I do think
McNeil is actually better in thecentre, but I think in Dyers he

(09:58):
will likely play ahead of him.
I think our front three behindan ace striker would be McNeil
on the left and Dyer in themid-string I think that would be
behind an ace striker would beMcNeil on the left and Dye in a
linchpin.
I think that would be the waythat it would sort of go.
It's good to have options aswell, absolutely, yeah, we got
away with massively last season.
We just didn't have any depth.

(10:20):
You've got Jack Harrison,dwight McNeil, dan Juma was
injured for most of the seasonand then it was Lewis Dobbin.
We just didn't have any.
We got away with the fact thatwe didn't have any major injury
problems in that position of thepitch.
So it's like, yeah, jackHarrison's probably not going to
play every game, winston'sprobably not going to play any
game every game, but the abilityto rotate them and have options

(10:42):
and not have to roll out thesame team is actually an
improvement on where we werelast season.
Yeah, we saw James Garnerplayed on the right side of that
a few times.
Yeah, because he had to when wewere strained.
We were kind of whether it wasluck or managing injury the
players' bodies better.
Now we were lucky, we didn'thave that many injuries, so it's

(11:03):
an interesting point.
Where do we think let's talkabout income?
We'll talk about this.
I want to talk about gaps.
Then we'll talk about playersthat are potentially going out.
Where do we think the gaps are?
You can always add quality, butin terms of places in the squad
, now where you look and go, wehaven't got sufficient quality

(11:26):
or depth in a particular sport.
Where would we say that is?
I would say, definitely centralmidfield, because you've sold
Inanna and even if you then moveDecore back and view him as a
central midfielder, you've lostGomez in that area of the park.

(11:47):
You've sold Inanna.
So you've basically got Gay asa year older.
I mean, it doesn't seem liketime affects him, but you never
know when that changes.
You bought Tim in from Villa,who is we haven't talked about
Tim.
Let's talk about Tim, who seemslike a good potential player,

(12:08):
but I think he's 19 and he'svery much signed as someone that
you think hope develops intosomething.
He's not someone you're signingto be like, right, we're going
to drop you in right now to playevery game.
So I think we're right incentral midfield.
And then the other spot twospots I would identify, and it
sort of depends on how theoutgoing is going or how you

(12:30):
view certain players.
I'd be really fascinated aboutright back, because if your view
is Nathan Patterson is a goodright back, who can play a role,
then I think we'll set a rightback because you've got
Patterson, got um Patterson,coleman and then Young, who can
deputize there, can alsodeputize at left back.
I think if Dyche doesn't likePatterson, I think we're short

(12:53):
at right back because you'relimiting yourself to Seamus
Coleman, who is 35, and AshleyYoung, who is 39, nearly 40 like
.
So I think how we've usedNathan Patterson will really
determine right back.
And then the final one is Ithink I would like to see us get
another winger in, because Istill think we're probably one
short there, and then, short ofthat, we can talk about

(13:13):
Calvert-Lewin.
What about left back though,because I mean, who is that back
?
It's actually young and I don'tlike him at right back.
I like him even less.
I think I think that's right, II think, yeah, that's a fair
job, you know, because Mikko's,you know, he's a bit injury
prone.
Mikko Lenko, yeah, you know, ashe sort of demonstrates, you
can sort of see that and Colemanwas umming and ahhing about
retiring.

(13:34):
So, you know, it's not thatthere's almost as if, like,
ashley Young's never given ahint of retiring.
So he's obviously, obviouslystill feels he's got it, whereas
Coleman might.
My question tells you he's not.
Coleman's not going to play 44,45 games.
No, he might play half that,but no, I think.
Yeah, I think left-backs arefresh out behind the bunker,

(13:56):
andy.
What about what you thinkgaps-wise?

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, I mean right-backs are really
interesting.
I think the answer to thequestion what does Dice think of
Patterson was answered lastseason, because there were
several games where he couldhave played Patterson and just
didn't he played.
You know, ashley Young wasthere, I'm sure he played.
Did he play James Garner rightback ahead of Patterson in one

(14:21):
game, or have I made that up?
They James Garner right backahead of Patterson in one game
or have I made that up?

Speaker 1 (14:26):
You played right wing back once or twice.
Garner did play right back forthe England under-21s.
In whatever tournament they wonwith Lee Carsley, garner was
the starting right back for theEngland under-21s.
So you may well view as a sortof utility right back that he
gives you the third or fourthoption.
So maybe left back is thebetter, is the better shot and

(14:47):
the other thing about midfield.
To come back to that bit, is thething which is possible
although unlikely, I will admitis there's a deli alley shaped
question?
Yeah, because you know he's.
He's out of contract but he'sbeen training with everton, I
think still is.
So you, god knows what isactually happening there, but
they must.
Either Everton are just beingnice and saying we're going to

(15:10):
help you and we'll help youcontinue rehabilitation, which
is possible, or but they wouldstop doing that at some point,
obviously, or they're stillfiguring out whether there's a
question, whether there'ssomething there, in which case
great, if you get Dele Alli at75% of his potential he's a very

(15:34):
, very good footballer and, inthat time as well, presumably
having a conversation with Spursaround if we were to sign him.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that
just because Dele is now out ofcontract, that doesn't mean the
whole arrangement that we hadwith Spurs, where we paid a
certain amount of money once heplayed a certain number of games
, is null and void, becausethat's obviously how you get
around, that you just wait forthat contract to elapse and then
give him a new one.
So my understanding is there'sclauses around us not not being

(16:05):
able to do that.
So we might well be having aconversation with with topman,
uh around reese sun and uh delhiand you know, and having a
conversation around uh the youknow regarding what sorts of fee
that might be yeah, I thinkwe've heard some stuff about
yeah, I think happening, I thinkthat conversation has

(16:25):
essentially been agreed becauseit will depend on what the terms
are.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
I don't think the same terms in, like the 10
million, a certain number ofgames are implied, but I suspect
there was a fee, that there wassome sort of arrangement where
if he signed a new contract withus, that would have been a
trigger of a fee, which I thinkthe reporting was that we've
negotiated would actually happenfurther down the line.
Yeah well, I'd heard and this isall conjecture, but it does

(16:50):
make sense Because, if you thinkabout it, you're in this
situation Spurs have got no realleverage in that negotiation,
so you can say, well, we'll justhe goes somewhere else.
They sign some of the contracts, they get nothing right, yeah.
So what they get nothing rightlike yeah.
So what I'd heard is thatevanson had negotiated that if
we sold him, if he signed him onthe contract, and if we sold
him right, spurs would get a bigchunk of that right, which

(17:13):
makes sense, right, because thatyou know.
Otherwise it's first say, okay,well, if he signs on the
contract, we want 10 millionpounds, you're just gonna go
yeah, he's not gonna sign acontract then, and you're gonna?
get like there's no, you knowyeah, yeah, he'll go sign for
some, for someone else who will,who will definitely pay you
nothing.
Yeah, so I think you know,because spurs are sort of I mean
, you know spurs were unlockingthe deal that they did with us

(17:35):
and that he they would haveexpected him to play more
obviously, but so I think itjust makes sense.
I just don't raise it because Ithink there's still something
there, isn't there, like he'sobviously hasn't gone away.
Yeah, yes, totally.
Um, let's talk about outgoings.
I wanted to do a bit too.
We'll come to the sort of um,uh, branthwaite thing, which has
sort of been the giant kind ofthing, but you know, yeah let's

(17:58):
read ben ben ben.
Man reads from the internet anew feature we're gonna do on
the, the podcast.
Okay so, Dele Alli actually islisted in our outgoings because
he has some contracts.
He hasn't formally got us off,since he'll be with us.
Andrew Govements, his contractexpired and we didn't retain him
.
Andy Lonergan went on a freetransfer to Wigan, which I'm

(18:19):
learning literally as I readthis Andy Lonergan's about 480
years old.
Yes, he is, that does makesense.
He's after, after that thetruth.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Andy Lonergan is just going through the EFL, the
Football League for the seasonnot played for yet,
alphabetically, and he must havea W for blessed.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
He's trying to do the 92, but by playing for them all
by playing for them all.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
yes.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Lewis Dobbin, who we sold to Aston Villa, who has now
gone on loan to West Brom,which is competing, he doesn't
even move a house.
The whole thing's worked outgreat for him.
Ben Godfrey, who has gone toAtalanta for around somewhere in
the region of 10 million pounds, and then the big one obviously
is amadou bin ala, who has goneto astondale for somewhere in

(19:11):
the region of 50 million pounds.
Clauses, and how do we feelabout those bits of business
generally?
I, I was, um, I was surprisedthat the um, I was a little bit
surprised.
The godfrey one, I don't,because I just didn.
I just didn't really see itcoming and maybe that
necessitated the O'Brien signing.

(19:31):
I think we could say that Dychedidn't really fancy an honour.
That's pretty fair to saybecause there were lots of
opportunities to play him.
And it's fair to say as well,he was technically our best
central midfielder and um dashdidn't, you know, obviously just
didn't fancy him.
So to get 50 million for him,uh, obviously helps us out

(19:54):
enormously with the psr because,uh, what is he sounded what we
found two years ago into afour-year contract.
So half of that transfer feethat we paid to, yeah, leal has
not been paid off.
So you're looking at roughly,you're looking at obviously, the
50 million is now spread over afive-year contract, but we get
all the gains straight away.
But you get exactly.
You get that gain straight away.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
About 30 million or something.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, so it's helped us out with PSR and has
obviously helped fund some ofthose deals.
I think I mean one, theinteresting one, the really
quite interesting one was theobviously Louis Darby just in
the circumstances in which ithappened, because that's

(20:36):
obviously absolutely been donefor reasons of getting around
PSR.
And for anyone listening whodoesn't sort of maybe understand
how that works, it's basic thatobviously any academy products
are booked as pure profitbecause they are obviously.
They start from a bank, theystart from a base rate of zero
and anything that above thatcould be banked as pure profit.

(20:57):
So what the clubs haveobviously done is they've
inflated the prices for playersthat they then exchange for an
inflated fee.
So we got what was it like, wasit uh?

Speaker 2 (21:08):
10 million for the job and we paid.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Not, we paid the other nine million for tim, and
those players are probablycomfortably half that value.
So you're looking at, you know,you've just, you've just put on
an extra five million, yeah,through your books, um, but and
you haven't, you haven'tactually spent any money.
Well, it's not because the PSRwhen you sell a player, the PSR
gain is booked right away.

(21:30):
When you buy a player, the PSRcost is spread over the contract
.
So Tim, our new best friend Tim, is on a four-year contract,
which I'm guessing you saw onthe three-year contract.
So that's three minutes.
So basically we've gained 10,.
We've gained a net 7 in thattransaction.
And if Dobbin's on a four-yearcontract, Villa would have
gained a net 7 too.
Isn't it amazing how that works.

(21:57):
It's like Coke and Pepsi.
Coke and Pepsi don't reallycompete with each other, they
just act like they do.
The arrangement suits everybody,Sorry.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Adam.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
No, it's fine.
Yeah, and this hasunfortunately been a natural
consequence of the PSR rules,which I know.
Caveat the fact that PremierLeague have agreed, obviously
did sign up for these, but thishas been a natural consequence
of the way it's been enforced.
And Kieran Maguire did sign upfor these, but this has been a
natural consequence of the wayit's been, the way it's been

(22:28):
enforced.
Yeah, um and uh, kieran mcguirewas talking about.
As soon as these things came out, he said they're so poorly
written.
He immediately said heimmediately wrote down 10 ways,
quite literally 10 ways in whichthey could be navigated, one of
which was selling your assetsto yourself through a different
company, which is obviously whatChelsea have done.
The PSR rules are just not fit.

(22:48):
Obviously, as we know, are notfit for purpose, and this sort
of thing is inevitable.
It's a bit sad when you seeAcademy products be sold.
Yeah, but it becomes necessary,and I wouldn't put us in the
same bracket as, like chelsea,you know signing, you know
selling conor gallagher becausethey've pissed so much money up

(23:11):
the wall that now it becomesabsolutely essential that they
have to.
And, and so I mean personally,I was a bit sad about it, like I
like an honor.
As a player, I think he'sreally technically fantastic and
I think in think with adifferent manager he probably
would have been successful.
But the net benefit of havingDyche in the way he wants to

(23:32):
play is a much more importantthing to consider.
The most annoying thing aboutthis season, outside of us
inevitably losing to whicheverpromoted team we should batter
at home, the most annoying thingabout the discourse for this
season is, I convinced AmadouInamu was going to look like an
absolute superstar playing forUnited and we're going to have

(23:55):
Everton fan after Everton fan.
Well, why wasn't he like that?
For us, because Dyche didn'twant him to play like that.
Yeah, it was a system thing.
Yeah, it wasn't a player thing,it's a system thing.
And In yeah, it was a systemthing.
Yeah, it wasn't a player thing,it's a system thing.
And Arnaz basically said this,like after he moved.
He did an interview, um, afterthe Euros, where he basically

(24:15):
said you know, I felt like theEuros, I was really able to play
my own game, because sometimesyou're told to play a certain
way which doesn't emphasize theskill set that you have, which
is essentially as polite a wayof saying as you can.
I was told to play in a waythat limited how I wanted to
play the game.
So I think you'll see him play.
He'll be a much moreprogressive passer for Villa.
I think he'll carry the ballmore for Villa.
I think he'll look like areally, really, really.

(24:35):
I think he'll look like one ofthe best new midfielders in
Europe and I'm sort of.
I'm sort of annoyed at Deitchin a sense, because my concern
is you have a player thattalented but are absolutely
unwilling to bend your system toaccommodate that talent, you

(24:56):
are harming yourself rather thanhelping yourself.
Deitch's system is veryeffective, but at some point you
have to operate with theplayers that you have, not the
players that you wish you had,and I think the anana experience
demonstrates that he can't dothat or he's unwilling to do
that because he couldn't make anhonor work in the system.
And he was, or he was unwillingto make an honor in the system,

(25:18):
so he rolled out garner and anaddresser garner gay more often
rather than playing someone whois, I think, one of the best
English fields in Europe.
So I was expecting Inanna to go, but I am worried about what it
says about Dyche, tactically,that he couldn't make it work.
It might be interesting to seeI agree with all that.
I think it might be interestingto see what a Sean Dyche like,

(25:42):
having finished 10th and 9th intwo consecutive seasons versus
the sean dash who stayed in theleague on the last day the night
before.
Because if this is my questionwith this is the question is
that you know, can he do whatyou say, which is because if you
want to say, like everton'sambition for me should be pushed

(26:03):
towards the top six or seven,right, that that is like doable
at the scale of you know wherewe are as a club.
If you want to do that, you'vegot to accommodate players who
are at that level.
Now maybe he can't do that orhe's not willing to do that.
It's very, very possible, maybein the context of the season we
just had where, if you go back,it was only on the last day of

(26:24):
the last season we didn't getrelegated.
He's just not willing to do itin that context, basically
because, because the job lastseason was, you know, we stayed
up quite comfortably in the end,despite having points to dr
shang and says, easy, weactually he came in and like the
job was to like stay in thepremier league.
But I agree, like you know,that there is a question there

(26:45):
about can you otherwise the wayyou play, if you nullify teams
against us, nullify one or twothings, because no one can do
anything really surprising.
Let's talk a little bit aboutactually I'm going to I keep
putting it off, but let's talkabout Dominic Calvert-Lewin and

(27:06):
let's talk about DominicCalvert-Lewin and let's talk
about Dominic Calvert-Lewin andour strikers in general, because
we've actually got a shitloadof them.
Now Neil Bope is back.
All our dreams are realised.
I think he actually is a goodfit for the number 10 in Dijs's
system.
I genuinely, do you think aboutsomeone who triggers a press?

Speaker 2 (27:28):
and is annoying.
He triggers all kinds of thingshe triggers all kinds of things
.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
He triggers other.
He triggers other, yeah theentire.
Arsenal fan base.
He's the biggest shithouse.
He's the biggest shithouse.
No, I think do you think we havea theory that Mopay actually
ends up being a useful asset inour system?
So you mean that number 10?
So you're not going to.
Let's look at it.
So just let's look at strikersgot Calvert-Lewin, beto Chimiti,

(27:53):
mopey maybe you say Mopey is anumber 10.
I agree with that because he'snot, certainly not physically.
He's not a dice center forward,yeah, but he plays 4-4-2 and
he's a second striker.
Yeah which we could do.
I mean, it's not as insane asit maybe sounded a few years ago
.
Presumably one-off.
Chimiti, Calvert-Lewin or Betois going to leave before the

(28:17):
transfer window.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Well.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Chimiti's just had an operation on his foot Right.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
So he's going to.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
I've not read how long he's actually out for, but
there was a.
He Instagrammed a photo of himin a hospital with what looked
like a bandaging on his foot, soit didn't seem like, oh, I'll
be back in a week.
So that may influence ourability to move somebody.
If Chimiti isn't available,because we're going to, we
really, just in terms of thebalance of your squad, you'd

(28:43):
really want two players to playthat role.
Yeah, you wouldn't want to bepaying for three, right?
So I guess the question I'mcircling around is do we think
Harlow Owen will still be anEverton player by the time the
season starts or by the end ofthe season?
No, okay, give us more.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Expand an audio.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Imagine we were doing something which you're both
talking about, these things atdeath.
I don't think he will, becauseI don't think he'll sign a new
contract, because I think he'smade pretty clear that he
doesn't want to sign a newcontract.
He's got one year left and Ithink if you're Everton Football
Club, you cannot let someonewho you can book as pure profit
on PSR I don't think you can letthat player run out of company.

(29:26):
So who finds him?
Well, I suspect what happens isthat the annoying thing that we
the Dominic Cavalier in ruinsbecause his wage demands are too
high, is we had a PSRE swapdeal set up with Newcastle for
Yacouba Minte, who has now goneto Brighton and looks like an
absolute superstar who's anattacking winger, like for

(29:47):
Yacoub Minte, who has now goneto Brighton and looks like an
absolute superstar, who's anattacking winger, like you know,
good, fair player, pacey,exactly.
I suspect the reason why we wentafter Lindström was because of
that deal with Arthur, becausewhat that was going to be is
like, essentially, you getCalvert-Lewin for 30 million, we
buy Minte for 30 million and weboth book profit.
It fell apart because ofCalvert-Lewin's wage demand with
Newcastle and there is analternate universe.

(30:08):
We're going to watch Mint ABamazing for Brighton.
I think what happens withCalvert-Lewin is we end up
selling him quite close to theend of the window, for we're
talking about £30 million.
I think you end up selling himfor somewhere between £20 and
£25 million.
Effectively, you take the hit onhis wages, you go, he won't

(30:29):
sign a new contract.
He's probably worth more thanthat, but we need to get what we
can right now because otherwisewe get nothing next season.
And there's a question with me,with Calvillo.
I like Calvillo and I'mgenerally sort of a defender of
Calvillo and to my friends, butthere is a question about how
many games a season is he goingto play, because we've got a lot
of games you know, and heaverages I mean he plays what

(30:51):
about two-thirds of the games ina season.
He played pretty.
I mean, he did play pretty muchevery.
He played pretty much everyPremier League game from I'd say
like I think he had a bit of aspell where he didn't play and
obviously had better playing fora few games, but last season
was definitely, over the pastthree or four seasons, like his
most productive since hisAncelotti season.
But the issue that he had lastseason, of course, was that fact

(31:14):
that at one point he was he wasstatistically the worst
finisher, yeah, in the league,because he missed, he missed
chances.
You've seen him in thepre-season where he's missed one
or two chances as well.
So even when he's playing, thejob that he's paid to do has
actually been quite questionableas well.

(31:34):
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, I agree with Ben.
I think if he's not going tosign a new deal and it becomes
evident that those negotiationsare going to be hitting a brick
wall, then you sell because wecan't afford to let him go for
free in the Sunlight.
Andrew, what do you think?

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah.
I'd agree with all that, and theone thing I'd add is the fans
have obviously got on his backin the past when he's been
missing chances and have beencritical of his performances.
So a situation the club reallywants to avoid is in the past
when he's been missing chancesand has been critical of his
performances.
So a situation the club reallywants to avoid is him remaining
at the club after the transferwindow's closed at the end of

(32:15):
August, when it's obvious he'snot signing a new contract.
He's then playing missingchances and then the fans just
get on his back when he's thenplaying missing chances, and
then the fans just get on hisback, um, when he's playing,
because that's just going toobviously lead to a negative
atmosphere in the ground.
So yeah, and let's be honest aswell, let's be fair he's

(32:38):
perfectly entitled to not sign acontract as an employee.
That he's perfectly entitled todo that and he's well within
his rights to do that.
But from the club's point ofview, I agree with everything
you guys have said.
If he's not going to sign acontract, the club just needs to
sell him for whatever realisticfee they can sell him for, um,
because that's then just pureprofit and that's far better

(33:01):
than losing him in 12 months forabsolutely nothing to add some
context to the injury thing andI've just pulled up the staff he
played in 32 Premier Leaguegames last season, started 26,
subbed in in six and then wasinjured for four.
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
So actually he was just shit, he was just shit.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
He scored last season .

Speaker 1 (33:24):
He was very present.
This is an interesting question.
So Calvert-Lewin and this isjust Premier League
Calvert-Lewin was involved in 32games, scored seven goals and
two assists.
If you played Beto for 32 games, what's the over-under on?
Did he score more goals.
Beto's goals per minute ishigher than Calvert-Lewin.

(33:44):
Yes, I agree, I think Betoscores more goals if he starts
the same number of games asCalvert.
I agree, right, I think also.
He just looks like a bit of adonkey doing that.
You know that's my impression,but we've got Look.
He joins a long history of theBrett Angel Dennis Trakworski
history.
I think he's really hard from.
It's his first season in thePremier League.
He was working in KFC like sixyears ago.

(34:06):
I think he's a really goodplayer.
I remember when this happened Ithink Beto's minutes per goal
was something like 180.
And Calvert-Lewins is likenearly double.
It's more than that.
Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
The transfer strategy over the summer has obviously
not just been to create more,have a little creativity, but
it's also spread the ballsaround, because andai isn't
obviously an astronaut striker,but he will be playing and he
scored in um chef's unitedpromotion season.
He scored a good number ofgoals for them.

(34:43):
I think he got like between 15and 20 goals in the championship
and then obviously they lost.
They lost them to Marseille inthe summer.
So, and then you've gotLindström as well, who has
obviously shown he knows wherethe goal is in the pre-season
against Preston.
So the idea that you know,people don't really talk about

(35:05):
the fact you know you need, youneed a 20 goal season striker,
because modern football doesn'toften, uh, work like that.
Um, yeah yeah, yeah so youespecially someone as well, and
the way you want you know you're, the way that we might want to
play is that you could see Betoas being not like a target man

(35:31):
but a focal point of attack.
And because he's a focal pointof attack, he brings all the
plays into play.
So you've got like Lindstromand you've got Dive and you've
got like more plays like that.
So you can, sorry, and we're alltrying to keep it together and
for the purposes of the podcastand you've got to die, then
you've got more pain, so you can.
Sorry, we're all trying to keepit together and for the
purposes of the podcast, we justneed to explain that Andy just

(35:53):
accidentally disconnectedhimself from the Zoom so he just
disappeared entirely off thecall and then sheepishly
reappeared about a minute laterI did that thing in school,
where you look at your mategiggling and you just start
going, so I made the mistake oflooking at Austin whilst I was
playing.
So sorry to interrupt your flowthere, but we need to do it now

(36:15):
there's the humour in the room,so the idea of Beto being able
to replace Cavalier, as like ourstriker, is not as sort of no,
I think, because the total he'sgot to actually get there is
obviously not, evidently notvery high, but his ability to
bring all the players into thegame is objectively probably not

(36:39):
.
It's not as good as Cavalier's.
I think that's his realstrength.
But we have a much richer setof players now who can
contribute to playing.
Our top scorer last season Iremember was in the Premier
League, I think it was DwightMcNeil.

(36:59):
He might have been joined withCalvin Levy.
So we've got a good number ofplayers there who can pitch in
with goals and in the event ofinjuries, um, you know you're
not, you're not panicking asmuch as, like ben said earlier,
where last season we were verylucky.
You know you lose.
You lose jack harrison and thenyou, you know you're bringing

(37:19):
in lewis dobbin and then youlose that dobbin.
Then you're bringing in someacademy kid it's.
We're not in that position thisseason.
Decore was with seven, was justat the top with Calvert-Lewin.
Dwight McNeill only scoredthree.
I thought he scored more.
I thought he scored more.
Maybe it's just I rememberthere being more bankers.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Maybe I'm thinking of Decore.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, decore got seven, tristan Gran got seven,
atrissi Granaghe was actuallythird with four.
But anyway, I agree with you.
I think if you play Beto, youget as many out of Beto Beto's
coming he definitely.
Last year he scored three, wait, wait.
It's an interesting point.
I think it relaxes me a littlebit listening to you guys talk

(38:02):
about this, because I think thequestion about Calvert-Bloom,
which will be answered in time,is is he as good as he thinks he
is?
Yeah, the idea of going toNewcastle wouldn't bomb, would
it?
I don't know what Calvert-Lewinthinks he deserves.
I don't know why he's in aposition where he thinks what
he's asking for for Newcastlewas between £130 and £160 a week

(38:26):
, depending on what support he'sgot.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Which is probably not far off.
We're paying him.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
We're paying him about £100, so we obviously want
to pay rise from us, and it'slike I'm having fun, Dom.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
What have you done?
The?

Speaker 1 (38:36):
form doesn't deserve it and you've been injured the
past two seasons.
I'm not really sure, mate, whatyou've done to deserve a pay-by
.
Fair enough if you want parity,but I don't see what.
And also the idea of going toNewcastle was.
I mean, I imagine fromNewcastle's point of view
they're looking for squad depthbut he's not going to start
because they've got arguably thebest striker in One of the best

(38:59):
strikers in the league in.
Isak, who banged them in lastseason, will be playing, and
Eddie Howe doesn't play atwo-striping system and he
wouldn't put Isak andCalvert-Lewin together anyway.
They're too similar in terms ofheight, so for Calvert-Lewin's
point of view it didn't make anysense anyway.
So I'll just quickly run thenumbers.

(39:21):
Beto appeared in 30 games lastseason, but he only started nine
of them.
If you look at the minutes thatthey both played in the Premier
League, beto played 941 minutesand scored three goals.
Calvert-lewin played 2,186 andscored seven goals.

(39:42):
If you divide those so you getthe goals per minute, beto is
313 and calvert lewin is 312minutes per game so they're
essentially identical, butyou've also got to consider that
beto is coming into situationsmidway like after, with 20
minutes to go.
You know, often you're not.

(40:03):
You're coming in, especially ingames where you're winning.
You're not trying to score agoal Like he's there to you know
, be a hold-up player.
So it's a different context.
So I genuinely believe that ifthey play the same, if you gave
Beto the 2,000 minutes thatCalvin Owen got, I think he'd
get more goals.
The most important stat andwe've probably covered it
already because goals you knowmuch like assists, you know you

(40:28):
should never look at assistsbecause it requires a different
player to do it away.
The one that you want to lookat players of creativity is big
chances created in much the sameway for four strikers.
You actually want to focus moreon big chances missed, big
goals required if you, if youyou can look at like because
we're not the most creative team.
So therefore the minutes pergoal is naturally going to be

(40:48):
reduced because of that.
It's obviously a stat comparingthose two it.
It works because you'recomparing two players exactly so
that worked.
But if you want to look at likebig chances missed, better was
actually better in terms of thatstat, because we know calvert
lewin wasin was very, very lowon that list.
He missed a number of goodchances last season, so it'd be

(41:13):
a shame for him to go.
I really like him to save a lotof the US teams.
I like Calvert-Lewin as aplayer and I like him as a big
hitter, but it is what it is Ifhe's not going to set a new
contract, then that's the wholedecision, especially because we
have to do.

(41:33):
We have one more domestic loanslots that we can use and we've
all consistently been linkedwith Armando Brozier over the
years.
So, if you do view, actually westill need another strike
because Chamisi's injuredthere's a world where you can
sell Cavvert-Lewin and bring insomeone who is a perfectly good
back-up to Beto for much cheaper.
Although my sorry to finishthis thought, my pet theory is

(41:55):
that we end up with CalvinPhillips on loan from man City
living in that spot.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
I'd agree with that.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
He's a very, very dicey player.
Yeah, I think.
On the Brophy point, I thinkChelsea want to get rid of
Piersa.
Oh Piersa.
Yeah, we're not going to getinto it today, but Chelsea are
fucked.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
I look forward to a future pod where we get into the
nitty gritty of Chelsea's squad.
We can obviously wait to theend of this window to see
exactly who they end up with.
But I mean, they are screwed.
They are a PSR charge waitingto happen big time.
But we can get more into thatin a few weeks.
Yeah, solve that problem.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
All right, let's talk about Jarrod Brantwaite.
Everton have held firm, gotbids of what is it?
£40 million or something fromUnited.
Everton held firm so firstquestion, I guess do we think
Everton are?
There's been no interest fromanyone else that we've heard

(43:02):
about, do we?
There's not a ton of spare.
You know people are taking PSLseriously now, so there's not
loads of money sloshing around.
The Saudis haven't hit the tableover this summer yet.
Do you think Everton are kindof bluffing or do you think they
actually want to keep him?
I think for this season we'llwant to keep him.
I'm very confident that we will.

(43:22):
I think the O'Brien signingswill be pretty important to him,
going for more money, becausehe's not going to get any worse,
he's only going to get better.
And he'll be in the Englandsquad.
He's going to be playing forEngland this time next summer
Bram Thway, I think, or at leasthe'll be the first deputy to

(43:43):
Daniel and then Stones.
So I think he's.
We've played it well and Unitedhave either taken their
approach, taken their sort ofapproach to how they're trying
to restructure United, which isto really try and scale back on

(44:04):
costings and stuff, and they'veput in quite a derisory and
insulting initial offer ofsomething like 30 million or
something stupidly low.
Which means legs.
Are you buying?
Yeah, and there's a thing innegotiation where you do an
anchor in a way.
You basically get the otherparty to focus on a particular
number.
So I don't know if they'retrying to try and do that

(44:27):
approach, but I think evansonobviously just too shrewd for
that.
That will be too shrewd.
They're not going to be going.
You know, we're not going toaccept anything less than 60
million this, uh, this summer ifwe were to sell it.
Um so um, and I can't seeunited coming back in from.
There's been absolutely no talkof any of the team going for
him, because obviously they'vesigned.

(44:50):
What was it?
Mauro, yeah, mauro, yeah, mauro, a young French kid from Lille
who's now out for about fourmonths with a foot injury.
Sorry, it's all right, heprobably doesn't listen.
It is just funny, it is funny.
Man United, funny, isn't it?
And they've got quite a numberof other centre-backs anyway,

(45:17):
and they're being constantlylinked with the link from Bayern
Munich, so I can't see himleaving.
I think we've played it reallywell and we'll have seven in
next season for something northof £17 million.
You need a bidding war for thatkind of player, don't?
You, it's a longish contractand it's a big thing.
He's obviously got the factthat he's English, which
obviously adds value to him, buthe's left-footed as well.

(45:40):
He's a left-footed ball playingcentre-back and they aren't
incredibly rare to come up withthat.
Yeah, and it's credit toEverton that they've put
themselves in a position wherethey didn't have to sell it.
Yeah, you know that through acombination of the, I think that
you know what I understand frompeople who talk about, or seem
to be close to, everton's PSRcalculation.
It wasn't actually that closefrom the Dobbin thing was what

(46:02):
we needed to get done.
The Inanna war buys us leewayAlthough.
Inanna happened after the PSR.
Yeah, but to do stuff for nowsome room for manoeuvre.
So I think Everton have done avery good professional job of
not being up against a June 30thdeadline to sell, you know,

(46:25):
granthwaite for a knockdown feeas our only asset.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I mean, I think it's asuperstar.
I think the man United offerwas just utterly bizarre, like I
just don't understand.
It reminds me in a lot of manUnited sense of this.
Remember the summer when boyswent to man United and then
ummed and armed and then 20 quidfor Fellaini and Bates.
Yeah, it came in and theyoffered 30 million for Fellaini

(46:48):
and Bates like as a jointpackage.
It was like who sat down andthought that that was ever going
to work.
It was just bizarre.
So I'm pleased that we don'thave to sell him, because I
think he's he's will only growin terms of his value assuming
he doesn't get injured oranything and then um, and he

(47:10):
fits the system.
And that's the differencebetween him and anana is that
you.
You feel like we're not goingto miss Inanna because in
Dyche's system those centralmidfielders are more replaceable
, whereas I feel like if you'dsold Bramflay you'd be going
okay.
He was a massive part of ourstrong defensive record last
season.
He would have been a muchbigger miss and you're going to

(47:30):
concede 10, 15 goals orsomething because he's not there
.
It's interesting because he'snot there.
Yeah, yeah, it's interestingwith united because you can
sometimes look.
It's interesting to look atstuff sometimes when you're
trying to work out why someone'sdoing something to your life,
what, what?
What do I think if I assumethey're stupid, and what do I
think if I assume they're agenius?
And if united is stupid, thenthey just are amateurish.

(47:51):
Basically, like it's like thesepeople don't know football,
they think Everton are upagainst it, don't have good
intelligence on that, so put astupid offer in which makes
sense and might be exactly whathappened.
If they're smart, what they'redoing actually is they just saw
it as a way to signal to themarket that they were not going
to overpay for players and totheir fans, like new sheriff in

(48:14):
town, we're going to put theopera in to show that we're not
gonna be, yeah, you know, like,which I don't really see the
benefit of, but I can kind ofsee them doing that maybe.
But I think if you're not gonna, just to play that out, if, if
you're not gonna, if your stanceis, we're not gonna pay
evanston's asking price, why doyou need to put a bid into?

(48:34):
Yeah, I know, I agree, you justbrief, you brief out we're not
going to pay Everton's askingprice.
Why do you need to put a bid into get that?
Yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
You just brief out, we're not putting an offer in
because it's inflated.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
You don't have to do the slightly embarrassing we'll
put a low offer in to make thatpoint.
Like you can achieve the sameoutcome, which I think is a
smart outcome, without doing thedumb bit in the middle.
Yeah, you're totally right.
So I think they're probablyjust stupid.
Yes, or to me, maybe slightlymore.
You know realistically, don'treally understand how this sport

(49:01):
works.
I think they've been.
I think they're not.
Yeah, I think you're right.
I think they're naive.
They're naive and they've gonein with their idea of like we're
going to do this withManchester United and sort it
out in this way and we're goingto take that mindset and apply
it to transfers when other clubs.
It's fundamentally not.
It's not a rational business.
I mean it's not.
It's it's the way players arevalued.

(49:23):
It's not rational but, alsoyou've got to consider that in
eos are like cycling people,right, right, I mean cycling.
You control so many of thethings internally.
You're controllables, butwhereas in football, because of
the transfer market and buyingand selling players, a lot of
this stuff is is about otherpeople, someone on the other
side that you're negotiatingwith.

(49:45):
When you're running a cyclingteam, you're not negotiating
with other people to get like,buy a cycle.
It's like there's contracts andstuff but, like so many of the
improvements are internal tothat team how you operate, how
you operate and stuff but likeso many of the improvements are
internal to that tier.
It's how you operate, how youoperate.
And this is like the marginalgains in the delf brelf, dave
brelf's stuff and the one x onepercent here.
And you know the famous storyabout the olympics with the
making sure that every teammember had the right pillows so

(50:08):
that they were getting the bestsleep, and all that marginal
gain stuff and that.
But that's all internal.
You can't apply.
Trying to take that logic andapply it to external
negotiations where you haveanother party on the other side.
It's like, well, I don't careif that's your process or that's
your philosophy.
Jared Brown's makes worth 75million pounds and unless you're
willing to offer that, fuck off.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yeah, it's a good thing.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Bottom line.
I'm very valuationist, he'sworth whatever the selling team
says he is worth.
Yeah.
Yeah, bottom line, like you cansay that 30, 40 million is a
good, isn't it a price point?
If we don't agree, it doesn'tmatter.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, and it's interestingbecause because you're right.
It's interesting about thecycling analogy because you know

(50:52):
the predictor of, I bet.
I mean, I don't know cyclingsuper well, but you could see
how the operations of a team andthe science by the team is a
big or is a strong correlationwith outcomes, whereas we know
from the premier league, thebiggest correlation to outcome.
The premier league is wage bill.
Yeah that's the number onepredictor of where you're going

(51:13):
to finish is what, which isbasically how good of players do
you have, which, of course,makes complete sense.
So it is obviously going to bea learning curve for them.
Andy, anything on Brantwaybefore we move on to whatever
the hell else we want to talkabout.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
I agree with everything that's been said
about Brantway.
All I have about the end bit onfootball is, in addition to
people sort of treated how theyrun their football teams
differently, it's people.
Modern football is a businessbut equally it operates
differently to every otherbusiness model.

(51:50):
And just using the office as anexample, you know Jim Ratcliffe
is bringing his, his incrediblysuccessful businessman and you
wonder if he's bringing thatbusiness approach into running
Manchester United and trying torun it at that club the same as
he's run his other businesses.
And it's taken a little bit oftime to work to work out that

(52:11):
Manchester United and footballin general needs running
differently to another business,just because it is for the
reasons that you've you guyshave alluded to.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
I agree.
Take it to the football side,the commercial stuff, how you
operate a stadium, how younegotiate, all of that is but
the football the footballingside.
Yeah, that yeah it's you know,because no one you know who's
ever made money from it.
I mean to be fair, the Glazerfamily from man United have made
money yes, they're on a veryshort list of people who've made

(52:48):
money from Premier Leaguefootball teams and to do it,
have basically had to alienatetheir entire fan base against
them.
Yeah, exactly, you weren't likea business.
That's what you end up with.
They're not at the top anymoreand maybe the Glazers got lucky,
maybe this is their strategyall along what they have
effectively done.
You look back at the history ofit and see they sort of didn't

(53:13):
underinvest.
They've got the most expensivesquad ever assembled, but
there's a disconnect.
And Martin Edwards is on thethey didn't under invest.
They've got the most expensivesquad ever assembled, but that
that there's a disconnect.
And martin edwards is it on therecord saying that there's
there's a disconnect between thefootball success and the
commercial income.
So they were just riding a waveof the brand, basically, and
actually they didn't need to win, yeah, stuff to do that,
whereas you know, and obviouslythat's gonna sort of they're
gonna run out of road on that alittle bit, speaking of owners

(53:34):
who've gotten fucked over andlost an enormous amount of money
take a moment we want to talkabout takeover stuff.
There's not a ton to talk about,but it's obviously a thing, so
we'll talk about it.
I want to take a moment to justquantify for everybody what
Farhad Moshiri, because we allthink Everton have made us
miserable and we're like trustme, no one has suffered more

(54:00):
than Mishiri who I've met.
The guy once seemed like a niceguy.
Don't know him, I've no interestin him at all, but that guy has
loaned Everton, boughtEverton's, bought his shares for
400 million pounds, has loanedthe club himself approximately
another 400 million pounds,which he was um, the deal with

(54:25):
the freaking group which fellthrough, which may or may not
come back because they walkedaway from roma before they
bought them, and the 777 thingneeds to kind of work itself out
in terms of you know, us beinga party to this potential sort
of criminal thing in the us um,they were going to pay him 50

(54:46):
million pounds and that includedwriting off all of the debt.
So he would have, in thatscenario, lost 750 million
pounds and they said that theythat they walked away and I
think, from what I understandfrom stuff that's out and people
have spoken to, is that theywould have carried on if he'd
offered, if he'd accepted, £1.

(55:09):
So the guy is going to losesomewhere between £700 and £800
million from owning Everton.
His reported net worth when hecame into this was £1.2 billion.
The guy is going to losesomewhere between 700 and 800
million pounds from owningeverton, yeah, which he's
reported net worth when he cameinto this was 1.2 billion.
So that's, I mean he doesn'thave like that is like the
substantive balance and whoknows what.
The other point to make that isthat and I'll make this point

(55:31):
in a way that where we don'thave to consult any lawyers,
let's see, I'm not sure all ofthat money was necessary.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I agree, that's the point I was
going to make, but somebody,somebody is losing a lot of
money.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Someone has lost somewhere between seven to eight
hundred million pounds and thatis fucking painful.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I mean that is like 800 million pounds and that is
fucking painful.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
I mean, that is like Portmanteau has been a disaster
for the football club, but youcannot ever, we'll never, be
able to fault the guy for notputting his money where his
mouth was because boy did he,and he got absolutely fucked.
My working theory is that thefree-licking group come back in
yeah, like not just because theydid it with Roma, but there was

(56:18):
nothing fun.
They didn't.
What didn't happen was theydidn't come in, look at the
books and go you've lied to us.
This is all over the place.
We're pulling out because it'sa fundamentally bad, like bad
deal for us in terms of it's notwhat we were told in the run.
What actually happened is twothings again, with all the

(56:43):
normal caveats and sort of somestuff's out there, some people
that I've spoken to who arequite closer to this stuff.
Two things happened.
One, as you said, was themishiri shares thing, where they
wanted to basically say tomishiri hey, we're taking on,
we're wiping out all the debts,like, yeah, you get a pound and
you go away happy, not having toown a debt ridden club anymore,
and mishiri was all in firmafor the for the 50 million.

(57:07):
And then the second thing iswith the.
I don't fully understand thesorts of how this is all
necessarily connected, butcurrently seven, seven, seven
are um a cap, which is thecompany we're providing or
assume their liabilities but arebeing sued and by in the us and
therefore any business that is.

(57:29):
And we obviously still owe moneyto a cap, about 700 million,
seven, seven.
So anyone buying the club wouldhave legal indemnity against
any outcome of that court case,because at the minute there's no
guarantee of what we actuallyowe to 777 and a cap, because it
has to be worked out in courtabout who owns what and who's
liable for and who's that.
And they weren't, weren't thefreaking group?

(57:53):
The words I was told wereweren't the freaking group?
The ones I was told wereweren't comfortable with the
indemnity that they can get toprotect themselves against that
legal case.
But that's just a risk thing,right?
And would they be morecomfortable with the indemnity
if they knew they were saving£50 million because they weren't
paying Moshiri?
Right, if Moshiri goes, ok, youcan have it for a pound.

(58:14):
They go, ok.
Well, we now feel better thatwe might owe some more money
later because we've saved £50million here and now we'll do
the deal and it can only be likeit's not that the liability is
potentially unlimited.
We borrowed £777, lent us £200million.
That money may, and againemphasise, nothing is certain,

(58:36):
because none of us.
I don't want to I mean 777afford to sue us.
There are ongoing civil andpotentially criminal
investigations into the conductof 777 and you know, one of the
allegations that has been madeis that they effectively raised

(58:58):
borrowed money secured againstassets and they secured multiple
loans against the same assets.
So they go, but you get threedifferent mortgages on the same
house Can't do that.
That is what is alleged to havehappened, which of course might
mean that the money thatEverton received in cash, which
real money was paid, may havebeen acquired fraudulently.

(59:18):
That's not Everton's problem,except in the sense there's a
question because 7-7 have nowgone bust and the people trying
to work on their assets.
The question really is we mayend up actually legally being
required to pay back less than200 million, because that's how

(59:39):
asset disposals work.
The creditors for the people onthe other side of 7-7-N who
lent them the money who theythen lent to us, are going to
get back less than a dollar fora dollar.
So it's an unknown of 200million pounds.
The question is not that itcould be a billion.
You know actually they theymortgage, you know they actually

(01:00:00):
own goodison or something like.
It's not going to be.
It's not going to be that, butit's a complication.
You say.
You say, ben, they'll want togo and buy insurance from
somebody.
Say we'll pay you 50 million toinsure us against potentially
200 million, and some insurancecompany may decide to do that or
not on how they assess thatrisk.
But you know they figure.

(01:00:20):
They also figure they've gotmachinery by the balls.
Yeah, because you know the freeking group have now lent
Everton operating.
It paid you know a tranche ofthe stadium costs, which I think
there's maybe one or two lefton that, which is a couple of
hundred million quid, and itprovided operating.

(01:00:43):
You know capital.
So you know it's actually quitea brilliant.
You know it's like it's likegetting someone hooked on a drug
.
You know it's like what'smushii we're going to do, and
because what?
What came out we roughly heardwas everything had a few months
of operating income.
Let's say that's three or fourmonths, I'm guessing completely.
But a few is not 12, right, andit's not one either at the end
of that period of time.
What the fuck's machine are yougonna do?
You can't, but, like you know,you can't borrow any more money.

(01:01:06):
So at that point, all the.
If it's inside a transferwindow, they can sell players
potentially.
If it's outside the transferwindow, you go into
administration and at that pointhe loses everything anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
So you know they may go.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
We've got this guy.
We'll just come back in threemonths.
Yeah, I would not be surprisedat all if we're in October,
november and this all comes backin a freaking group and if you
can adopt, if you can getEverton for nothing and end up
you know you're going to end upwith something around.
You've going to end up withsomething around.
You've got to assume debts ofsomewhere between 200 and 400
million, depending on the youknow.

(01:01:43):
Effectively, you're buying aPremier League club for 400
million, which is what Moshiripaid for it 10 years ago, and
the Premier League is worth waymore than that.
It's about to move into a newstadium.
Yeah, you've got a new stadiumthat's built.
You've gotten on the risk ofthat.
The Premier League's raking inway more money than it did back
then.
It's actually a bargain.
Sorry, Andrew, do you want?

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
to come in.
I was just about to make thepoint about the stadium.
You know, even if the freakinggroup do walk away, it can't be
beyond the will of man and thewill of companies and investors
to look at Everton in thecircumstances they're in and

(01:02:20):
think this is an opportunity topick up an undervalued asset, or
however you want to describe it, because the new stadium is a
game changer.
Look at Tottenham, for example.
New stadium is a game changerbecause you look at Tottenham,
for example, I don't know, whiteHart Lane had a capacity of

(01:02:40):
38,000, which is about the sameas what Goodison is now, and
they're now in somewhere northof 60.
I mean, they have concertsthere, they have boxing matches,
they have all sorts of thingsat Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and
that's going to be that.
That.
That that will surely happen atEverton as well, in addition to
all the football matches there.
So it's an opportunity forsomebody to come in and pick up

(01:03:05):
a Premier League football club,and obviously there's only 20 of
them and the number of largesort of well-supported ones.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
So Andy just dropped off the Zoom again, absolutely
Very funnily, and I'll find it.
I'll tweet this clip.
You could see his headphonefalling out of his ear as he did
it, so we knew exactly whathappened.
Adam, finish your thoughts.
I will try to predict whatAndrew's going to say.
I agree with him on the stadiumthing.
He's going to use the TottenhamHotspur stadium as a Tottenham

(01:03:40):
Hotspur stadium as a comparison.
Welcome back, andrew.
I don't think that's happenedonce in all the 75 podcasts.
Now Andy's done it twice in thesame episode.
You're now on mute, andy.
Andy, you're just talking asyou're muted, you're having a
nightmare this is the first timeI've used earbuds.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
With um, I thought I'll, I'll get I'll.
I'll remove a wire and useearbuds for the first time on a
zoom call on my phone and it'snot got off to a very auspicious
start, so I might just go backto using plugged-in headphones
and writing on a.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Also the audio quality from plugged-in
headphones is actually muchbetter as well.
Yes, it's actually a bettercall than general.
Sorry, I'm sorry.
No, andrew, sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Andrew carry on.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Let me finish your point, Andrew.
Yeah, no, just about.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Yeah, just to summarise, is that?
Yeah, just to summarise is that?
Yeah, there's only 20 PremierLeague clubs, and the number of
ones that have got the fan baseas large as Everton is obviously
smaller than that.
So it's a great opportunity forsomebody to come in and pick up
a Premier League football clubfor the cheapest price it's
possible to buy one for.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Yeah, and it's all about the debt.
Right, because you're going toend up in a situation where I'm
not for.
50 million pounds is not a lotof money?
Obviously it is, but you know,somewhere was you know Moshiri's
only was asking for 50 milliona month ago, so it's only going
to go down to potentially onepound to get the club.
It's then a question of debt,and the thing about debt is that

(01:05:12):
is it's a you know, that's it.
That's the you know game ofchicken.
Basically, between you as apotential buyer and the people
who lent everton that money,because they can say all they
want.
Well, we're not going toforgive that debt, but if the
club goes into administration,then it's going to be taken out

(01:05:34):
of their hands and they'll justaccept what they can accept.
And football clubs andadministration is tricky because
the way the assets work.
So you know you, if you werebuying everton, you would be in
a very strong position, and anincreasingly strong position, to
say to you know that a cap, youknow the freaking group now who
?
And I think that's it because Ithink the sports and media

(01:05:55):
funding stuff got paid back andthere's other people who do
better podcasts on this, on theexact mess of evidence finances.
But you know you're in a verystrong position to negotiate
these people and say, look, ifwe don't do this and we're going
to offer you 20% you know, 20pence on the pound for that debt
, if we don't buy it, then it'sgoing to go into administration.
You're probably going to getless.

(01:06:15):
So it's all going to come downto what the debt holders want to
do.
You make a good point about thetop lots there, andrew, because
I think Spurs last season mademore than any other club on a
match day.
Yeah, and you're right aboutthe in the fact, about holding

(01:06:37):
gigs and stuff like that,because absolutely everything
will be doing that sort of thing.
And of course, you've got the,which we haven't done yet.
We've also got the idea ofhaving a sailing rights and
having that on a waterfront in amajor UK city.
Oh yeah, it's going to getmentioned on in the tv.

(01:07:00):
Yeah, a hundred times a week,it's a big deal yeah, and that's
sort of so football fans ingeneral aren't sort of happy
with that, the idea of their,their stadium being, like, named
after something, but it's notlike you know, but the disaster
of you know, st James's Park,where Newcastle fans very
understandably, um, you know,hated the fact it was called the

(01:07:23):
sports direct arena, um,because it was their, it was
their existing stadium.
I think that I think themindset is probably going to be
different if we were to donaming rights for the arts bar
on Newground, because it's notgood as soon.
Yeah, I think that the sort ofthe emotional attachment is not
going to be as high in thatregard, and also we will
probably we might not be in aposition to sort of say no to

(01:07:45):
people that come in and want to,you know, name a particular
thing.
No, so you're right, becauseall the I know the problem with
that kind of staging project isthe risk.
So you've got all the risk ofcost overruns which we've had
and just permissioning andactually getting the thing built
.
Once you take that away, it justbecomes a valuable asset that

(01:08:07):
you can operate and make,because Everton would make money
with a new stadium if youdidn't have them and they're
paying somewhere between half amillion and a million pounds a
week in interest currently.
You take that away, it's acomplete game-changer.
Anything else on takeover stuffthat we should talk about

(01:08:27):
beyond the fact it's a shit show, but that's okay, not for long.
I think the point to make isthat and for the football
finance experts, the camerabuyers of the world, the
freaking group, pulling outdoesn't change.
It doesn't mean that we are nowlike at risk of administration

(01:08:47):
or at risk of all the like,anything like that.
It is because, as austin said,that they've given funding,
operational funding, that willlast for several months, so the
risk is not a short-term one inthe sense like we're in danger
in the same way that we were atthe back end it felt like it was
at the back end of last season,like we have some breathing
room for some of this stuff towork out, for other buyers to

(01:09:08):
appear and for all the reasonsthat we've said is, actually, if
you can work out the finances,it's a good.
Uh, the slightly complicatedfinancial situation, it's a good
deal.
But so I'm less, I'm morerelaxed because it's like, okay,
he didn't want to buy it.
He might still want to buy itand come back, but someone else
will buy it.
Yeah, well, I'll be.
Excuse me, I'd be very, very,very surprised if everson went

(01:09:29):
into administration, not justbecause it's like impossible,
it's not impossible at all, it'sjust it's not really in the
interests of we know, because we, you know, before the freaking
group ended exclusivity therewere three other groups who were
circling around who went away.
Yeah, you know, and so it's all.
It's not in anyone's.
Nobody gains from it.
Going into administration andand coming.

(01:09:50):
You know it goes intoadministration when you can't
get someone to buy it.
Yeah, and that seems veryunlikely that you would look at.
It's not like how sophisticatedor the structural decline in
high street retail.
As Andy just said, it's apremier football club.
There's only 20 of them.
The thing's getting bigger andgrowing and the stadium, like

(01:10:12):
Andrew said earlier, is anabsolutely massive pool, the
pool for potential investors.
Yeah, and that will becompleted.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
Yeah, I mean it's nearly done now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
I mean they've got all the seats in.
It's looking fantastic.
Yeah, all right, we'll wrap itup there.
Good to be back together.
Subscribe wherever you get yourpodcasts Spotify, apple,
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