Whats working, and what isn't

We're a few games into the season now and we've seen the good and the bad of this Everton team. In this pod we look at what is working, how Everton have struggled recently, and look ahead to Sunday's game against Crystal Palace.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Welcome to episode 87 of the Blues Brothers Everton
podcast.
Um it's Ben in the captain'schair today.
Austin may be joining us at somepoint.
He said he was on a train, sowe'll see how that goes.
But there are the three of usare here, so uh you've got me,
Ben, and uh Adam and Andrew withyou.
Uh so Adam, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
Um yesterday I uh showed out acomfortably four-figure sum on
uh getting a root canal done.
And um and my car beingserviced.
So uh to spend that much moneyon something like painful and
painful is painful.

SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
It is painful.
I will also reveal I'm not surethe root canal has changed
Adam's habits hugely becauseliterally, as I started saying
welcome to the uh episode 87,Adam went on mute in order to
open a can of coke.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
So it's zero sugar.
I don't drink full sugar coke.
Never have.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Well, I mean, is that healthy?
You might as well it sound likeyou might as well drink full
sugar coke in every root canalanyway.
You're getting all thepunishment none of the fun.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Um Yeah, but apart from that, I'm good.
You know, I'm a I'm a I'm agenerally positive, generally
positive person, even thoughI've just had a dentist, you
know, dig out dig out my toothfor an hour.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah, Adam called Adam did call me yesterday
because they were trying to findthe stones at at um the Hill
Dickinson Stadium.
And I said to him, How are you?
And he said, Oh, I'm great, I'mgood.
Spent a load of money on my carand have a root canal.
And I'm like, that doesn't soundlike doesn't sound great.
But as Adam said, enormouslypositive about you know cars,
dental care, and Everton, um, aswe will discover as we talk

(01:55):
about this.
Andy, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
I'm good, thank you.
Yes, and my definition of goodis probably higher than Adam's
definition good, because I'mcurrently halfway through a
caravanning holiday in theNetherlands, which is uh very
nice indeed.
We've been to uh three themeparks, two of which have been
with the European Coaster Cluband had a couple more days sort

(02:18):
of satcheling around thecaravan.
I'm gonna do a bit more of thattomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
Uh uh a caravan trip round the Netherlands seems like
the sort of activityspecifically designed to annoy
Jeremy Clarkson.

SPEAKER_04 (02:30):
Like that's it, very niche.

SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
And if it annoys Jeremy Clarkson, then as far as
I'm concerned, all the morereason to do it.
Absolutely.
Good, good stuff.
Um, have the roller coastersbeen good?
They have, yes.
I mean, the first two parks,Wally Bee Holland and Wildlands,
were um a European coaster clubtrip that I planned, organised,

(02:54):
and ran, which was uh very good.
Two good days were had, lots ofgood feedback.
And then today, Marie, my wife,and I have been to Efteling,
which is just a lovely place,one of the best theme parks in
the world.
Just good rides, good coasters,good food, just everything's
just absolutely top class aboutit.

SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
Great.
Speaking of things that areabsolutely top class, we've all
now been to uh the HillBickinson Stadium.
Um we are recording this on uhthe 30th of September.
So we played West Ham yesterday.
Um and we haven't done a podsince basically uh I think after
the Leeds game.
So we've got a couple of thingsto catch up on.
So, but rather than doing a deepdive into every individual game,

(03:35):
we we have fortunately a betweenus can cover each of them.
Um so Brighton was the first oneum that we had after the game,
which we which we won, which wasour first first home victory at
uh at the Hill DickinsonStadium.
Um and I'm gonna pass that toAndy.
Impressions of the stadium.
You know, we don't need to getinto the game too much because
we're gonna do like uh chatabout how we're playing, but

(03:58):
tell us about your experience atthe first proper home game at
the Hill Dickinson Stadium.

SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Well, the stadium is is out of this world, it really
is.
I deliberately didn't look toomuch into what the inside would
look like prior to my firstvisit because I wanted to see it
fresh with my own eyes, and thefirst impression of walking up
the stairs and seeing the seeingthe stadium inside, it's

(04:25):
absolutely fantastic.
And our seats are uh bang on thehalfway line.
I mean, dad wanted a seat on thehalfway line.
I think if you carried onpainting the halfway line up the
stamp, it would bisect his seat.
It can't be any more in themiddle.
Um, so the view is is absolutelyspectacular.

(04:46):
Um, you know, the area aroundthe stadium is is great, the
landscaping where it is by theobviously by the water and the
the dock on the on the southside is is is good as as a
stadium.
It's it's just absolutely worldclass.
And of course the experiencethere is only going to get

(05:08):
better as we all get used to ourum routines and meeting people
and all that sort of thing.
Um the only issue that dad and Ihad was um that the food service
um times in the club view areawere extremely slow, but I
gather since then that umthey've they've got a lot

(05:30):
better.
So that's obviously justteething issues, which which is
to be expected with a a newinfrastructure project of um of
this scale.

SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah, so when I I was I was at the Villa game,
which I think is the next onethat we're gonna talk about, and
they they it ironed outbasically those those teething
issues, uh as far as I couldtell, because I think the story
from the first game was it wastaking like 35 minutes or more
to get from the back of the lineto the front to get your food,
which isn't obviously the greatuh the best sort of pre-or match

(06:01):
experience.
When we were there, um dad and Iwaited for about 15 minutes, and
once we'd uh established thecorrect way of doing the
transaction, because we tried todo it all together, but they can
only do one thing at a time,voucher at a time, so that will
hock the whole thing.
But as you say, it's all thesort of teething process that
will um that will iron itselfout.
But yeah, I'm I you know same asyou, Andy, I was sort of blown

(06:24):
away by um by the by the thestadium and the scale and the
seats incredible.
And I think like um as with allof these things, I think if you
speak to anyone who's sort ofmoved into a new stadium whose
team has moved into a newstadium, there's always that
transition period where peopleare kind of working out like
where do we meet beforehand andwhich are the singing areas and
which is like the and I thinkthe club have actually done a

(06:45):
really good job in trying tolike set that up from the
beginning.
I was talking to a mate who's aum who's a um West Ham fan, and
he was saying that one of theproblems that they have with
that that um stadium amongst mothers is that the club didn't
really take the atmosphere fromthe park and go like, hey, if
you're in this bit, like thisend where all the singers go,

(07:08):
where all the the the you knowthe real boisterous crowd is
like the equivalent of ourglider street, this is where we
want you to sit in the newstadium.
So you ended up with all thepeople who were like used to
being the people who would getthe chance starts and stuff.
They were all just sort ofdisparately spread around.
Whereas it kind of feels likethe the the the is it which
stand is it that's super steepbehind the goal?
I should know this.

(07:29):
But the it feels like the clubof trying to like get people to
go there as the place.
It's the south stand, I believe.
Thanks very much.
Yeah, it's the right so yeah, itwas yeah, it was um, you know,
as you say, incredible,incredible seats, incredible
experience, you know.
Um we'll come on to like howwe're playing, but we should
have won the villa game, and Ithink um that's a fairly common

(07:52):
theme that was played out againlast night.
Um, for which I'll hand over toAdam to talk about uh his
experience at the Hill DickinsonStadium, and then we can get
into like talking about thegames.

SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
Yeah, I like what uh Andrew and and yourself are
saying it's just absolutelymagnificent.
Um, from everything from thejust the the atmosphere that has
obviously been created throughthe architecture, you know, the
steepness being the legal limitum and you know the the way the
roof's designed to hold in thenoise.
One of the most striking thingswas the chat, you know, they
really notice the difference inthe acoustics uh of the chanting

(08:30):
um from both sets of fans, youknow, it carries a lot more.
Um and I think once you knowwhen our when our results
improve and we sort of get overthis this hangover of worrying
about relegation or that sort ofstuff, I think once uh the fans
settle down that we'll reallystart to see that come into the
in into the fold.
Um I would uh I was gonna I wasI was wondering if Andrew

(08:51):
finished that sentence when hesaid uh the area around the
ground is lovely, and thenobviously I realised he was
talking about inside theperimeter of the of the dock
walls, uh because the outside uhis looks like about five days
into an apocalypse.
Um which will which will getobviously regenerated, and
you're already seeing like barsof some bars popping up and

(09:14):
stuff.
Um but yeah, it's a it's an amit it is absolutely um
magnificent in in in every way,and you know it's um it was br
it was just amazing to be there.
I got that you know, like almostlike little kid moment when you
walk out for the first time andyou just see that, and like
Andrew said, you know, we areabsolutely bang on the halfway

(09:38):
line.
Um so it's a fantastic seat,fantastic stadium, and it was a
brilliant experience, albeit theresult was a bit disappointing.

SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
Yeah, and and I always um I know the food
complaints have been like acommon thing, not just on you
know amongst people we know, butalso in on the other Everton
podcasts.
And I do sort of feel we have tolike we have to, you know, check
ourselves a little bit becauseit's like, oh, you mean the the
the free food you get in your inyour nice seats isn't delivered
fast enough.
Sorry, do your diamond shoes notfit and there's too many 20 20

(10:07):
pound notes in your wallet, howterrible for you.
Um but I uh on the on that Ithink like the you're right
about the regeneration of thearea.
I think there's always alreadyyou know plans to have like
hotels and stuff, and you couldeasily actually foresee.
I don't think we would move fromFinch Farm because a Finch Farm
is obviously still very new, butI think you could totally see it

(10:28):
becoming more like a do you knowhave you guys been to the
Etihad?
Um where it's like a it's like acampus.
So there's loads of stuff there,so like it's all by and you
could sort of see how Evertonext, and you would hope that's
the plan that they kind ofextend outwards and have more,
whether it's corporatefacilities or some training

(10:48):
facilities or youth facilitiesor community facilities, and you
just sort of take over that areabecause you're Adam's right,
there's like there's nothingaround that.
Uh interesting to Everton fans,maybe probably quite boring from
anyone else.
Adam, what was your transportweigh-in yesterday?
What route did you take?
How did you do it?

SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
We drove uh from uh Mansfield, uh, and yeah, it was
fine.
Took about like like two, threequarter hours, it was fine.
And then we parked off stationroad and walked uh for about
half an hour.
So it's only I mean we'reobviously we're we're used to
walking for like you know 20minutes and uh um I did that
wanky thing where you put onyour Strava uh there and back.

SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
And is you that is wanky.
Strava is for runs, not forwalks.

SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Well, I I put it as a walk and I didn't put it as a
hike, it could have been worse.
Um so and it's uh and ifanyone's boring and and and
wants to know, it is about 7,800steps and uh 2.6 miles there and
back.
There you go.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Because interesting things I got there, I got there
early because I was driving upfrom basically Bristol.
Um, so I'd driven up early andI'd parked the car at our Uncle
Phil's house.
Hello, Uncle Phil.
I know you're listening to thepodcast.
Thank you again for letting mepark the car at your house.
Um so we went in early to meetDad, and we thought we met Dad
at Lime Street, so we thought,oh well, let's try sand hills,

(12:17):
like let's do that route in, seehow that is.
And actually, on the way in,dead quick, not a problem at
all.
And also dad and Phil get totravel free on the train.
So um that was a nice that was anice bonus.
Going into Sandhill is great,but we were going in at like
11:30 midday for a three o'clockkickoff because we wanted to
like walk around the ground andexplore and stuff.

(12:39):
That will be I I I've not seenany pictures of it after the
game, but I fully expect thatwould be an absolute disaster
because the capacity of thatstation is nowhere near big
enough to cope with the numberof people who are going to be
doing it.
And even there, actually, whenyou get off at sandhills, you're
still like 15 minutes walk fromthe stadium.

(13:00):
It's not like it's not like youget out and it's there, it's
like, oh, it's there, but I'mstill I still have to walk for a
fair fair fair amount of time.
So the transport is the onething that is like they need to
try and work out.

SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Um I imagine anybody who who is fully able bodied and
able to walk is very possiblygonna walk to Hill Dickinson
from Liverpool City Centre,because by the time you've
walked 50 minutes to Sandhill,so you can be more than halfway
back towards Liverpool 1, forexample.

(13:34):
Yeah, and that's after thestation at James Street.

SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Yeah, and that's after the game, actually.
That's what Dad did.
Um went back, obviously, wefailed to get the car, and then
um dad was gonna walk to to likeback to Line Street to get Kane
to see how long it would takehim, which is fine if it's not
pissing down with rain orfreaking cold.
Yeah, um, is the other problem,is the other challenge there.
But anyway, enough enoughtransport chat.
But I know it's been a big thingfor Evertonians um about like

(13:58):
how we get in and around thestadium and the that sort of
stuff.
But so in summary, stadium'sgreat, um, transport needs some
work, food is getting better,uh, but we're very, very
grateful and very, very lucky toyou know have this world-class
arena that you know we've beenwaiting for uh a long time for.
Let's talk about the actualfootball.
And Adam, I'm gonna come to youfirst because you were at the

(14:18):
game last night, so sort offreshest in the memory.
How do you think so we're doingso far this season?
You can talk about last nightspecifically, but give us your
assessment of where we are fromon on the pitch perspective.

SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
I always put it in the context of being in the last
three years when you go thereand don't necessarily expect to
A, see good football and B haveany uh chance, I wouldn't say
real chance of winning, but likeyou're not gonna go into games
where you expect to win, likeyou know, like we were last

(14:53):
night, you know.
I was going to last yesterday'sgame, going thinking I feel
really positive about this game.
So that sort of mindset has beenimportant.
Um because um so put it takingit in that context, you know,
things are a lot better androsier than they have than they
have been.
And since um this season we'vegot a respect a respectable

(15:13):
eight points from um eightpoints from six games, um which
gives you uh what's that itgives you 40, you know, if we
extrapolate it, just over justshy of north just north of 50
points uh by the season's end.

SPEAKER_01 (15:29):
Thank you to the mountain teacher for doing for
doing the work there for us.

SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
I've done more.
I've I've done more than that.
I was gonna say and and uhlooking at Moyes in general, um
looking at Moyes in general,we've we've taken uh from the
from the 25 Premier League gamesthat he's done, we've taken 38
points, which works out about1.57 a season.
I used calculator for that one.
Um but that puts us uh in thelast few seasons, um that puts

(15:58):
um uh ninth.
Last season, it puts us ninththe season before, I believe, if
my memory serves correctly.
Yeah, and it puts us ninth inthe season before that.
So basically, you're coming justinside the top half with how
Moyes has done since he came inin January.
And just looking at this this inparticular, you know, we had
this season in particular, wehad really good result uh

(16:19):
against Brighton, our first homegame.
Brighton are a a good a goodside, and 2-0 probably flattered
us in that game.
Um, we played much betteragainst the Villa and didn't
quite get the result that weprobably deserved in that.
Um deservedly beat Wolves.
Uh, that was probably our bestperformance of the season
overall in the league.
And then uh, you know, thewind's been taken out of our

(16:42):
sails quite a bit, I would say,with the League Cup.
Um, you know, Orank Peter uhsaid saw him at the game last
night, and he you know he said,you know, we're not we're not
one of the top teams, we'renever gonna compete for the for
the league anytime soon, we'renot gonna compete for Europe
anytime soon, really.
So you're looking at the leagueand the league cup and the FA

(17:03):
Cup as being two things that youcan look at getting a chance of
a trophy, and Moy's justcompletely um you completely
fucked that fuck that upcompletely with uh with his with
his selection.
So that's sort of a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
I like how you pause to try and find a better word
and just went with fucks thatup.

SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
That is that is amazing inference.
That's exactly what I did.
Yeah.
Um I can tell.

SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
You can tell if you listen to that, you can hear the
moment where Adam pauses go, howdo I express this eloquently?
I'm not going to, you fucked itup.

unknown (17:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Um, so that that was disappointing.
And then, you know, last nightwasn't the result that we uh
that we wanted.
So but you can look you can lookat the Villa game and the
Brighton result, and then youcan say, you know, we should we
possibly should be doing betterin those last two games that
we've had, but you know, we'reprobably reverting to our mean

(18:00):
um around about now, to be fair.
You were six Premier Leaguegames in, two cup games in.
Um, so around about where we areis probably where I would expect
us to be if I was beingcompletely fair and honest.
You know, we're not going to bewe can't be expecting to go into
games like West Ham and expectto win, um, you know, like I
said at the start, in fairness.

SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Yeah, Andy, what what do you think about where we
are?
I think you've got to look atwhere we are at the start of
this season in context um andcomparison to the previous
seasons, because this seasonobviously got off to a really
good start, Brighton in theleague, Wolves in the league,
and then it's hit the skids alittle bit um more recently, uh

(18:47):
most notably with the League Cuploss to Wolves, which has
already been very eloquentlyalluded to by Adam.
Um but you've got to compare itto the the previous seasons.
I mean, I I don't know whatpoints total we had after six
games last season, of course orthe seasons two or three years

(19:09):
ago, but it probably wasn'teight, and the performances
almost certain what certainlyweren't as good generally good
as what they have been.
So it's it's still looking verypositive.
If you're looking for sort ofmark out of ten figure so far
this season, I'd give us sixbecause we're showing lots of
creativity looking goingforward.

(19:31):
Um, but there's still elementsof the squad that you know could
need augmentation, but we'vespoken about that on previous
pods.
And it's also important toremember that there's not I've
been so much churn in the squadover the summer, nine new
players have come in, severalimportant players have have
left.
So it's still gonna take, Ithink, a little bit of time to

(19:54):
integrate people into the squad,get everybody playing
successfully together.
And I think there's an elementof as well of Moyes still
looking at that and stilllooking at who can who can fit
where.
Um now can can Moyes do a bitbetter?
Yes, of course he can.
I think Tyler Dibling shouldhave come on um uh uh earlier

(20:18):
than what he has done assubstitute in a couple of games,
for example, because did he getabout five minutes at the end of
the derby or seven minutes,something like that?
That's not enough time in thatsort of game to to see um see
what you can do.
So, but overall it's it's it's II'm still very much a glass half
full uh Evertonian because Icould I look at the wider

(20:40):
picture and see that the startof this season compared to the
start of previous season, it'slike night and day.
You go to the game now, you lookforward to it, regardless of who
we're playing.
We've got the forward players tocause any team problems.
So you're going into games withuh a level of confidence that's
greater than what you've seen inprevious years, and for me, that

(21:04):
can only improve going forward.

SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Yeah, and I Andy, I looked it up while you were
talking because I was curiousmyself.
So at this point last season,24-25, six games, we had four
points.
But important to clarify that wedidn't win our first game until
game week six when we beatCrystal Palace at home.
So actually, we were playedbefore that we were played five

(21:27):
one point, and then played sixfour points.
So we were 16th in the table.
So and I think this is I thinkyou both you both said it is
like the context is important.
And I was I was having afriendly debate with some of the
DC Toffeys over WhatsApp afterthe game yesterday, where there
was some disappointment, or likethis is two points dropped, or
we should be doing better thanthis.

(21:48):
And I was kind of like, we arein like we've gone, we've we are
in one transfer window in to arebuild of the worst squad in
the Premier League, and we sortof need to remember that.
I think because of how it'salmost it's almost Moise has
been done by his own success,but because of how you know we

(22:08):
did last season, and because ofhow good the transfer window is,
there's now an expectation thatwe just turn up and beat West
Ham.
Now, West Ham are like I don'tthink West Ham will get
relegated now with Nuno.
I think that'll be a much betteroutfit under him.
Potter obviously just didn'twork for them, and I think there
are lots of reasons for that.
But it's you don't just turn upin the Premier League and just

(22:29):
beat teams, right?
It's it's a hard lead to playand it's a really difficult lead
to get points in.
But I think we also need to berealistic that like we are still
a club at the very start of thatrebuilding journey.
So we're not like if you lookat, you know, if you look at
some of the teams who arefurther up the table than us, if
you look at like Bournemouth orBrighton, is it in fact Brighton

(22:51):
above I was in the table, sothat's a terrible example.
Like, but but if you look atlike the Bournemouth or the
palace, they're much furtheralong in that sort of
development phase.
They've they've got managers whohave been there longer, they've
invested over time.
They've you know, I I think weneed to be cognizant that
anything above are we gonna bein a relegation scrap is an

(23:12):
improvement hugely on the lastthree, four seasons.
So do I think we're gonna be arelegation scrap this season?
No.
I do I think we're gonna finishin the top six, no.
I think we're probably gonnacomfortably finish somewhere in
the 9 to 13 range, and it we'llhave a very boring May because
it will be kind of obviousthat's what's gonna happen.
But I will take a boring Maythan chewing my fingernails

(23:35):
while we play Bournemouth,needing to win on the final day
to stay in the division.
Thanks very much.
And that's like step one on thejourney.
So I think I was at the villagame, and like we, you know, you
play that game a hundred times,you probably win 75 of them.
Martinez made several top-classsaves that only he he makes.

(23:56):
And we, I mean, I was texting avilla mate of mine, and the way
he described it was that um we'dbattered them nil-nil, and
that's like the perfect way ofputting it.
Like, you we absolutely weplayed them off the park, they
didn't create anything, we wecreated chances, we just
couldn't score.
And that's like and that and wecan come on to this and we can

(24:17):
talk about the sort of thetactics and the setup and what
we're struggling with at theminute.
And I think like last night'sthe same, we got a goal from our
best striker, Michael Keane, um,and then we uh sort of struggled
to get the second goal.
And I think that and that alwaysgonna leave you open to Premier
League teams who have goodplayers going down the other end

(24:38):
and scoring one.
I just think like we have to bemore relaxed about the fact that
we're just not gonna we're notgonna turn up and beat everyone
who's in a relegation candidatebecause we're also we're only
just above that as a level, andI think maybe the start of a
season has set our expectationsa little bit too high.
Um, but let's talk let's talkthe the the sort of tactics

(24:58):
because I was reflecting on thisafter the discussion we had over
WhatsApp last night about likeBeto and Barry, and it was
something that Moyes said in hispostmatch actually that I
watched on NBC earlier thatstruck me because everyone's
talking about we need a striker,desperately need a striker, and
I don't disagree with that.
I think like we are missingsomeone who can knit that play

(25:20):
together, but I don't think wecreated a clear-cut chance last
night that that better or Barrythen missed, right?
And Adam, you are shaking yourhead vociferously in agreement,
ironically, I think.
But so I'm gonna come to youbecause you were there, but like
it's not like we're creatingchance after chance after
chance, and we've got thesestrikers who were just missing

(25:40):
all the time.
It's like we're playing lots ofintricate football, but we're
not actually really creatinganything, right?

SPEAKER_02 (25:47):
Yeah, I agree.
Um, I was shaking my head in inagreement, um, which is a
strange thing to do, but yeah,certainly.
Um the game against um the gamewe played last in the premier in
the in the in the PremierLeague, I think it was uh it was
Villa, and it was described onBBC Sport as like you know,
better better Mr.
Sitter, and uh and Steve Warnocksaid like he know you know he's

(26:10):
got he's got to he's he'sabsolutely got to score then he
he and I I watched it like on myI watched it after the game
because I've missed that, and itwas not like it was described at
all.
It was like behind it was likesort of behind him, and the
thing with Beto in particular ishis movement is absolutely
fantastic.
His is like he will get inbehind, he plays on the last

(26:33):
man, yes, he gets offside, butthat's that's just the law of
averages with the way that heplays.
His movement is amazing, and hisfinishing is when he doesn't
really have to think about it,his finishing is like really
good.
The issue is that when he doesget those when he does get those
chances, he doesn't necessarilyalways take them and he's not

(26:55):
clinical enough.
But more worryingly, as we sawlast night, it's the it's his
ability to link up that playbecause the tactic that we saw
last that I saw last nightmainly was where I would say the
main objective was to basicallyget the ball to Grealish as much
as possible and then get playersin and around him, whether it's

(27:17):
Mikalenko making an outside uhrun or Jewsbury Hall getting in
the box in that sort of um thatcorner of the box so he can get
get crosses in.
And Grealish would never really,he never went to take his man
on, really.
He always waited and then waitedfor a run and then nicked a
little pass into some spacebecause that's the obviously the

(27:39):
idea.
And if you look at Njay as well,Njay's playing on the right, but
he never actually goes towardsthe byline to get a cross in,
he's always cutting inside, andwe saw like the chance from
Jewsbury Hall uh with that.
So there's like that's that'sthe tactic is to get the ball
out wide to Grealish and Njai,who can then get ball get balls
in the box, but mainly get it toJack Grealish.

(28:01):
And Beto's really good if he'slike if he get he's got a chance
where a chance like againstWolves, you know, he'll get he
will get into good positionsbecause his movement's really
good, and he's actually he's anintelligent footballer in that
sense.
The issue is when you're a bitunder the kosh and or you want
to play on the break, and it'sit's his touch lets him down

(28:22):
because he takes one one or twotouches more than he needs to.
And then Barry for me is a muchmore technical player from what
I've seen so far, but I justthink that he's struggling
probably with the pace of thePremier League and getting and
and he's not quite at Beto'slevel in terms of making those
runs and getting to thosepositions because I can't really

(28:43):
think off the top of my head achance that Barry has had in any
match really, whereas I canthink of Beto obviously has
scored a couple of goals thisseason and he's missed he's
missed some chances.
Um the chances are being thechances are being create uh
being are being creative, butnot in the quantity that we need

(29:05):
them to be.
And that last night's game is areally good example of that,
because the only real chancethat I would say that we create
the two chances that spring tomind last night were the James
Garner shot in the second halfand the Jewsbury Hall header,
and he probably should havescored.
Um probably should have scoredthat, and I think a better
header of the ball probablydoes.

(29:26):
Um but yeah, I agree with you,Ben, and we're not we're not
creating we didn't create anawful lot last night, and we're
not creating an awful lot, likeoverall, I would say, to really
say that our strikers are notproducing what they should in
that sense.

SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
Yeah, Andy, what do you think about that, like in
terms of not just the strikerposition, but how we're playing
in general?

SPEAKER_00 (29:53):
You said already that uh the amount of creativity
that we're currently Providing,yes, whilst it might not be
exactly at the levels we'd likeit to be, it's still much better
than what we've observed up thelast few seasons.
And I think as well, if youcould get the machine out of the

(30:14):
science fiction film from the80s called The Fly and sort of
merge Beto and Barry together,you'd have the perfect player
for us at the moment because ifyou had sort of Beto's pace and
getting him behind with Barry'sability to hold the ball up with
his first and and have a betterfirst touch, you'd have the

(30:37):
perfect striker for us at themoment.
Um, but obviously they're twoseparate players.
Um I've only seen Barry onceagainst the Brighton in the
Brighton game, and I agree withwhat um what's just been said.
His hold-up play and link playwas really good.
He's still getting to terms withum just the pace and the style

(30:59):
of of the league, but I have nodoubt that that will will come
in time.
Um but it's I'd be moreconcerned if we were creating
loads of chances and better andbarrow were missing them.
And I think at the moment,because we are light up front,
it's it's the job of Moys andthe other attacking players,

(31:23):
Jewsbury Hall, Grealish, and Darand Jai, to um provide more of a
high more of the goals, the highpercentage of the team's goals,
in my opinion, because you youhaven't got that focal point up
front.
We haven't got anybody who'sgonna score the mythical 20

(31:44):
goals a season, which by theway, isn't actually a thing.
You know, 20 goals a season, nota thing, hardly ever happens,
but that's by the by.
Um so just to s to sum up, thecreativity, yeah, it it could be
better, but it's still a heck ofa lot better now than what it's
been in previous seasons.

(32:05):
And I've got every faith thatgoing forward, once the team,
once the team is more integratedand the players are more used to
playing with each other, thatmore goals will come from your
Grealishes and your JewsburyHalls and Jai, and also James
Garner as well, because hescored a cracking goal in the
Brighton game.
Um really good finish.

(32:26):
So uh yeah, I I I've got everyfaith that that goals will come
despite our apparent um sort oflack of a focal focal point of a
striker.

SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
Yeah, so I think uh from my perspective, how we've
been playing is actually muchmore to do with or the struggles
we've been having is much moreto do with um getting the ball
into goal scoring positions thanit has been missing chances.
Because I think if you actuallylike watch the Villa game and

(33:02):
the West Ham game outside oflike set pieces and throw-ins
and all that sort of stuff, um,and crosses, sort of general
crosses into the box.
I don't think we've reallycreated like a clear cut chance
in either of those games.
I think the game where we did itwas obviously Wolves, where we
created a couple we scored andthen we obviously scored three

(33:22):
goals.
But I I don't remember againstVilla us having like a real like
oh, should have scored that.
It was all kind of shots fromthe edge of the box or like um
you know half chances.
There was a good Michael Keaneheader.
Funnily enough, at least uh theidentical to the one he actually
scored against West Ham,basically, it was a Grealish
cross-in and then a header, andthen Martinez made a spectacular

(33:45):
save.
But I don't I don't rememberyesterday or against Villa,
which are the really the twogames that people are frustrated
about putting the League Cupaside, uh, us actually creating
a bucket load of chances, and Ithink that's partly to do with
the players still getting usedto playing with each other.
It is partly to do with nothaving a striker that can sort
of knit the play together, but Ithink it'll be it'll be fine,

(34:08):
they'll work it out, they knowwhat the issue is.
The the benefit is that we lookreally good defensively, and
that will often get you througha season, um, even if you're not
like firing on all cylinders atthe other end of the pitch.
And we're doing that still withwith Brandthwaite to to come
back, and um, so I think that'sa really good that's a really
good sign.
I thought we were too open fortheir goal last night, Adam.

(34:31):
I don't know where you thoughtobviously you were there, but it
felt like we were sudden, itfelt like the ball was in our
their half, and then all of asudden we were just massively
outmanned at the at the backpost.
And it was kind of like it waslike the goal you concede when
you're one-nil down and you'rechasing the game, and then they
go up the other end and make ittwo-nil because you've pushed a
road of men forward.

(34:52):
It was just seemed so out ofkilter with where the game was
at that point.
But I don't know, you were youwere watching it live, so had
the better, better view than therest of us.

SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Yeah, that that's what it seemed uh like.
But to be fair to the left andwest uh left West Ham, the West
Ham at left back, get thosewords in the right order.
Um Jufe, who is brilliant allgame, he's a really good player.
Um, and yeah, I I would have Iwould have loved to have signed

(35:22):
him if Mikhailenko wasn't sogood himself.
Um he was really good all game,and he obviously made that
fantastic run um and put in thatreally good cross that Michael
Keane, who was absolutely ourbest player by some margin again
um last night, uh, got away andthen you know it falls to it
falls to Bowen, and then youknow Keane gets an unfortunate

(35:44):
deflection on it, uh takes itpast Pickford.
So you you could argue that WestHam that in that sense it was
lucky because I mean we I wasright behind that shot and
Pickford was saving that quiteeasily.
Um that shot from Bowen and ittakes that deflection and goes
in.
So but in the build-up to thegame, I agree.
You know, we it we it's it'sjust one of the it's one of

(36:07):
those where one player umoutruns a couple of your own
players, there's a bit of anoverload, but Bowen um gets into
a into into a position um andhe's got a lot of space, and you
know, he's one of the mostdangerous players in the league
in that sort of situation.
Um so it was right that wecommit in more players forward

(36:30):
because the West Ham were therefor the taking.
Um we've just come back ontoyour you know, talk about um our
our you know missing chances andstuff.
The the stats, what you'resaying, Ben, do back do back
that up.

SPEAKER_01 (36:44):
Um because we've got have you come with some more
research?
This is this is what you getwhen you have a teacher on the
podcast, they do their they dotheir work ahead of time.

SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
Absolutely, yeah.
So we've we've scored we'vescored seven goals and our
expect and our expected goals iseight point zero four.
Um and then if you look at howthat compares the difference
between our our actual goals andexpected goals is 1.04.
Um, and that's uh it's not thehighest in the league, just a

(37:16):
very quick scan.
It's about the sixth or seventhhighest uh in the league.
So it means less at this pointin the season.
We've only played six games.
You know, XG is a much bettermetric when you get you know 15,
20 games into a season.
Um but it bet but what but itbut it does back up um

(37:37):
provisionally what you weresaying, Ben, about us not we're
not we're not creating an awful,we're not creating an awful lot.
We haven't got we're not ourstrikers and our players are not
missing sitters um to uh to putus in the position that we are.
Um but that's to be expected,you know.
We've had an awful lot of we'dhave we've had an awful lot of

(37:57):
uh of change in in in uh uh uptop.
You know, we've got we've gottwo new starting players in
Dewsbury Hall and Grealish, andthen you've got Beto, who is,
you know, as we've discussed,not the striker that we need
long term.
You've got Barry who is brandnew to the league.

(38:18):
So, and you've got Njai, who'snot playing in his best
position.
So in that sense, you know, it'sare you going to be creating
masses and masses of chances?
No.
Can we expect to be creatingmasses and masses of chances
when we have such an overhaul ofthat?
And also we come off the back ofthe we we come off the back of
the number of seasons that we'vehad where we're fighting

(38:38):
relegation and we're nowstarting to look better.
We're probably doing about aswell in chance creation as we
can.
And but like you said, Ben, ourour defensive solidity has
continued.
You know, we've conceded umwe've conceded six goals in
those six games, which isamongst the best in the league.
So um that sort of thing hascontinued, and and I said I've

(39:00):
ref referenced it before, buthuge shout out to Michael Keene,
who has absolutely beenabsolutely amazing.
And I I I hold my hands up tosay, you know, I I wrote him off
a couple of seasons ago um asbeing somewhat a bit of a
liability because of lapses inconcentration, but he was
absolutely amazing last night,you know, so composed on the

(39:22):
ball, positionally fantastic.
Um, you know, he got his head onthat, um, he got his head on
that cross, that albeit theyscored from, but without that,
if my memory serves mecorrectly, like the West Ham
striker's just ready to hitthat, knock that in at the far
post.
Yeah um and he brings an awfullot, he brings um you know the

(39:43):
passing range as well.
Him and Tarkovsky have got agood passing range on on them as
well.
So um from a from a creativeoutput, you know, he brings a
lot.
And I said this to Dad lastnight, you know, Branthwaite's
an absolutely brilliant player,but I don't see any reason why
you would bring him back in umwhen Michael Keane is playing so
well.
And why would you want todisrupt a defensive partnership

(40:07):
that's doing so well?

SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
Yeah, I think what it gives you, it gives you the
ability to take it slow withBranthwaite and actually get him
back because this isn't thefirst kind of hamstring injuries
he's had.
So it gives you the freedom togo, hey, do you know what take
let's take the extra week, theextra 10 days to really get you
up to speed.
Because you're right, Adam, Ithink Keene's been Keane's been
uh one of our best players thisthis season so far.
And I think you know, we can allhold our, I think collectively

(40:31):
all probably need to hold ourhands up that he wasn't
necessarily the one that we whenwe were talking about out of
contract players, I think uh inone of the podcasts last at back
end of last season, I think weall kind of said, well, you
know, Keane, yeah, probably lethim go, but you know, fair play
to Moyes, he he kept him roundand uh you know, and kept him
round as like your fourth choicecentre back, realistically,

(40:52):
because Jake O'Brien's probablyahead of him in terms of the
centre back um the centre backoptions if if we had someone to
play it right back.
But you know, Keane has beengreat, and uh as we've seen
chips in with chips in withgoals and was was composed and
with good.
And you know, the the bow andgoal is like that's just really
unlucky because he's just tryingto do his job, and there's

(41:13):
another world where he getsenough on that where he just
lets it round the post andeveryone's going, Oh, what a
great block, Michael Keene.
And it's like it is one of thosethings defenders, defenders who
I always Richard Dunn, I thinkwas he might still be the record
holder for like most own goalsconceded um in the Premier
League.
And it felt like he scored likefive or six a season, and it was
just because he was so oftenthrowing himself at things to

(41:35):
try and get blocks and stuffthat he would just be it wasn't
he was bad, a bad footballer, itwas just he would throw himself
at stuff and stuff would pingoff him going the net.
And I think that was like Keenlast night.
As you say, I think I thinkPickford comfortably save that
if Keene just gets out of theway, but that's not the
defender's mentality, right?
It's like um the other thingthat I uh we want to get onto
panelists before we wrap up, butum Adam, you want to talk about

(41:57):
refereeing, and then I want totalk about refereeing as well in
another uh from another thinglast night because I think we
should have had a penalty ifthey're applying the handball
law correctly.
But um, Adam, talk about KieranJewsbury Hall's yellow card.

SPEAKER_02 (42:12):
Yeah, I I was um I was apoplectic at the at the
ground.
I couldn't believe it.
And I've seen it back onreplays, and I was absolutely
right, as were you know 48,000other Evertonians who couldn't
believe that it was uh uh ayellow card.
It's like he he gave that purelybecause the guy got hurt, and
it's like, where the fuck is hemeant to put his foot?

(42:33):
He won the ball and he just thenhappens to stand on his foot as
the guy plants it.
It's like he can't do anythingabout it, and no wonder he was
so he was so enraged by it, andnow he serves a ban off uh you
know, because he got a yellowcard in this game, and um
obviously he got a yellow cardin the in the in the in the

(42:53):
derby um for you know takingfree kicks too easily, which
apparently he would have beenwarned about, which is which I
mean I've never even seen thatbefore, where you know you could
persistently taking free kickstoo quickly means you get a
yellow card.
I mean, what sort of nonsense isthat?

SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Uh on that one, I'm not saying I agree with it, but
d disobeying the instructions ofthe referee can is is one of the
is one of the things that can beclassed as unsporting behavior,
right?
It's like consistently taking athrow-in from the wrong place or
like it's it it's it allconsistently, you know, it's one
of those amorphous things.
It's not written in the ruleslike if you take too many quick

(43:34):
free kicks, but disobeying theinstructions of the referee
could be viewed as a form ofdissent, could be viewed as
unsporting behavior.
So you could put it down, uh itshouldn't be AL card, it's just
bad, it's terrible refereeinglike player management to do
that because what that means isthat Darren England hasn't
communicated clearly enough withkid with Jewsbury Hall to say,

(43:57):
hey, you don't take it quickly,you're not having a quick one
here.
He's obviously left it inJewsbury Hall's mind that he
thinks he can take it quicklybecause he does.
And so that's a failure.
Like for me, that is the sort ofyellow card where I'm a
referee's assessor, I'm watchingthat game, I'm going, that's a
yellow card because you failed,right?
That's not the player's fault.
If he didn't know what he wasexpected to do, you need that's

(44:18):
a failure of your communicationas an official, because he
obviously thought he wasentitled to take it quickly, and
you've come from a position thatyou're giving him a yellow card
for taking it quickly.
And it's just one of thosethings that just look stupid.
Everyone looks like an idiotfrom a refereeing perspective
when it comes to that, becauseit's like that's all you're
talking about.
And I thought Darren England wasgenerally crap in that game

(44:39):
anyway.
I don't know what I don't knowwhere you get three minutes of
injury.
I mean, where have you seenthree minutes of injury time in
a Premier League game thisseason in the second half?
And it I literally don't thinkyou've seen and uh you know, I
don't want to sound like aconspiracy theorist, but I'm
going to.
So if that game's 1-1 orLiverpool are losing 1-0, I
guarantee fucking tee you theydon't it isn't three minutes

(45:01):
injury time.
I guarantee you it's five, atleast.

SPEAKER_02 (45:04):
At this point, well, there was a there were just just
on that point about injury time,there was three minutes given.
They had two subs and theywalked off really fucking
slowly, and he should have gonean extra like two minutes there,
and he blew at at 93.45.
So it's like at least beconsistent.
There was a couple of occasionswhen he gave uh he gave

(45:26):
Tarkovsky a booking for a foulin the middle of the park when
the guy wasn't really goinganywhere, and then there were
other occasions when our playerswere in dangerous positions and
didn't, you know, didn't getbooked.
There was a worse decision, juston the point of referee, there
was a worse decision in the uhBrentford uh United game.

SPEAKER_03 (45:43):
Oh, that's a shocker.

SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
Where they don't where they don't give denial of
a go-scoring opportunity becauseit's deemed that he's not in
control of the ball.
And Alan Shearer made this, youknow, I'm gonna make the exact
point that Alan Shearer made andBarry Glen Denning made on the
Guardian Football Weekly.
He's not in control of the ballbecause crucially, guys, he got
pulled back by the guy who'scommitting the foul.

(46:09):
It's like where it's like theyare so it's like they're so
blinkered by interpreting thewording of the rules that they
don't apply any common sense towhy they why these things could
not be possibly true.
Yeah.
And then they'll come out andsay, oh, sorry, we got it wrong.

(46:31):
It's like, well, don't get itwrong.
It's really fucking simple.

SPEAKER_01 (46:35):
Don't get it wrong.
And and this is the thing, it'slike VAR was meant to eliminate
that sort of stuff.
If you have if you have a groupof referees who look at that and
determine that that is not a dogso, as you call it, um I I don't
know what we're doing.
Like, I at least we don't knowwhat we're doing because and
then just the handball thingvery quickly.
Like we have seen numerous onesthis weekend, and we all know

(46:56):
the Tarkovsky one given againstus earlier in the season.
There was the one in the Villagame, the Villa Fulham game,
which was given and thenoverturned when Matti Cash is
hanging his arm like behind himwhen he's going to block a shot
and it smacks his arm and itstops it going in the goal.
Well, okay, it's so Matikash canput his arms wherever he likes
if he's trying to block a shot,but if James Tarkovsky keeps

(47:17):
them by his sides, it's apenalty.
Like that's that's nonsensical.
And then there was the the otherone, which was the the Gabrielle
one in the Newcastle game, um,Newcastle Arsenal game, where he
slides in for a tackle and he'sgot his arm up here, and yeah,
it pings a little bit betweenthe two players, but his arm's
up here and it hits that, andthey go, Oh, it's a deflection,
so it it doesn't count.
I'm like, Well, like, what rulesare we applying here, guys?

SPEAKER_00 (47:40):
It's like it's ridiculous.
Another example as well is inthe Everton Brighton game, um, I
think it was Jewsbury Hall whowas penalised for a handball
penalty as well, which which wassaved.
Um but again, compared to theones that you the two examples
you've just um uh given there,Ben, I I genuinely don't

(48:02):
understand why some are givenare not and and and and some
aren't.
I genuinely don't know.
I don't see a difference betweenthem.
I don't think anybody does.
And to be fair to the officials,I'm not I'm not even sure they
do.
It's almost as if the handballrule has come full circle and
we're back now to how it used tobe, where I believe it was used

(48:25):
to be written if, in the opinionof the referee, a player
handballs the ball deliberately,it's a penalty.
And you obviously had loads ofinstances where handballs were
given um one week and not giventhe next because you might have
different officials looking atthe same, um looking at very
similar incidents differently.
We've almost come full circle tothat now because the the

(48:49):
handball law is written in it'sit's such a mess and it's so
complex.
I don't think anybody in thegame knows exactly what is a
handball and what isn't.

unknown (49:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:01):
Yeah.
In summary, no one knows what ahandball is.
Standard refereeing, stillterrible.
Breaking news um Gala Tasharijust beating Liverpool in the
Champions League, and Liverpoolhad a penalty overturned um in
the 90th minute, um, or the 89thminute or something.
So that was really funny.
Um we've got to wrap up.
Uh, we're gonna do a Palacepreview in approximately three

(49:22):
minutes, if that's if that'salright.
So Palace, obviously on astormer, um, beat Liverpool at
the weekend, unbeaten in I don'tknow how many games.
Um, so tough one.
Adam, what are you going for?

SPEAKER_02 (49:35):
Yeah, Palace, brilliant side, really like
Palace.
Um I I think we'll do well toget a draw out of uh out of
this.
I think they're a fantasticallyuh well-organised team.
They will sit back and they willhit us on the break with their
pace.
Um because they've got a theythey actually apply a three, uh

(49:56):
the the sort of um the amorimformation and apply it and it
actually works uh works forthem.
Um so yeah, I think we'll dowell, we'll do well to draw.
I think it'll end up um I thinkwe'll draw one-one.

SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
Andy.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
I mean everybody wondered howPalace would do with losing Eze
to Arsenal and is it Elise thatwent to whereby Munich as well?
Yeah.
Um but they've just carried onas if you know, no nothing uh
nothing nothing's changed.
Really well drilled side, allknow their jobs, square pegs and

(50:32):
square holes, really goodmanager.
Um yeah, I agree with Adam.
I I'll happily take a draw now.
Um and I'll go for one-one aswell.
I think we'll we will scorethough.

SPEAKER_01 (50:45):
I I think we'll lose two now, and I think that's
okay, because I think they're amuch better team than us because
they're further ahead in theirdevelopment than we are, and I
think like we need to not not uscollectively, but I think the
collective Evertonian fan baseneeds to not lose our minds when
we lose to Palace because Ithink we're probably going to,
and I think that's probablybased on where the two teams are
kind of an expected result, butI don't think it is indicative

(51:07):
of a bigger problem or the uh ofanything other than they're a
better team than us right now.
You know, they played Liverpooloff the park at the weekend,
they could have won four orfive-one.
It was it was not it was not acontest.
Um, so you know, they're playingreally, really well, and I think
that's that's the team that theyare at the minute.
Um, you know, I think we'll givethem a decent game because it's
quite rare, famous last words,for a Moy side to just sort of

(51:29):
give up and and roll over.
Um, but so we'll keep itcompetitive, but I just think on
the day they'll be better thanus.
And I I think the combination ofour struggles, goal scoring, and
their very impressive defensiverecord will mean it will be a
real challenge for us to for usto score a goal.
So yeah, I'm going for a 2-0 2-0defeat.
Um and with that, we are gonnawrap this podcast up.

(51:52):
Um thank you, uh, Andrew andAdam, for joining.
Austin obviously couldn't joinus at any point from whichever
train he was on.
So um I'm sure he will be ableto join us on the next one.
But um listen to us wherever youget your podcast, leaving a
leave us a rating or a view,share it with an Evertonian
friend, share it with uh anon-Evertonian friend, um, just

(52:13):
not a cop-ite, because we don'twant any of them around here.
Um, and we will see you on thenext one.