May 6, 2024 • 47 mins
Unlock the secrets to cultivating profound relationships and personal growth as we welcome Gila Ross, a dynamic Jewish educator and leader, to share her transformative insights from Pirkei Avos. Our engaging conversation delves into the essence of Pirkei Avos as a guiding force for nurturing meaningful connections, the core of Gila's book "Living Beautifully" and her podcast "Power Up."
This episode illuminates the timeless value of mentorship through the lens of Jewish philosophy, and emphasizes the importance of surrounding ourselves with positive influences. We also explore the idea that everyone can act as a mentor, sharing even the smallest nuggets of knowledge. Whether it's prioritizing quality time with loved ones or fostering respect and forgiveness, this episode equips you with the tools to invest in the relationships that form the bedrock of our well-being and community. Join us for a journey into the heart of Jewish wisdom with Gila Ross, and let's power up our lives together.
To purchase Gila's book "Living Beautifully" click here: https://gilaross.com/book.
Use code bodiessouls15 for 15% off your purchase.
To sponsor an episode of Bodies & Souls, email us at
info@bodiessouls.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good morning and welcome to Bodies and Souls, the
space in which you hear realconversations from real Jewish
women talking about topics thatare relevant to you.
You're going to walk away fromthis conversation inspired,
connected and feeling uplifted.
Today we have Gila Ross with us.
Gila is going to talk to usabout Pirkei Avis and this
unique period in which we findourselves in.
Pirkei Avis is something weread by rote every single year.
(00:26):
This year, my hope is thatyou're going to read it and it's
going to be meaningful to yourlife today, because Pirkei Avis
is not a composition of wordsthat we should just say every
single Shabbos between Pesachand Shavuos, but it's a tool of
self-growth, and Gila and I aregoing to take a deep dive into
why Pirkei Avis is just asrelevant today as it was when it
(00:47):
was compiled.
So, without further ado, hereis Gila.
Good morning and welcome toBodies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
I am here with Gila Ross.
Gila is the director of Womenand Families for the Jewish
Experience in Denver, colorado.
(01:08):
For those of you who don't know, the Jewish Experience is a
Kirov organization and Gilaactually just moved out there
six months ago, so she hasimpacted lives in Germany,
canada, the UK, and has reallydone beautiful work.
You can find her on Instagram.
You can also find her on PowerUp, which is her podcast.
She is the author of LivingBeautifully.
(01:29):
Living Beautifully is a bookwhich navigates the complex
terrains of life, providing thetools and principles to
appreciate what is trulyvaluable.
It is a book that is based onPerke Avis and it is the basis
of our conversation here today.
So, gila, I am so excited forour conversation here.
Start off by telling us alittle bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay, well, firstly I just wanted to say thank you so
much for having me.
It's a real honor and I'mexcited to have this
conversation.
So a little bit about myself,as I grew up in the UK, lived in
the UK pretty much until I gotmarried when my husband and I
moved to Israel for a couple ofyears two and a half years we
were there and while we werethere we did Nerda Elef, which
(02:11):
is a leadership training course.
What it is is in those days.
What it was is that it was atwo-year commitment, that you
took this two-year course andthen you committed to moving to
a smaller Jewish communityoutside of Israel to take on a
leadership position.
So we did that.
And then we moved to Germanyfor a year and a half, which was
(02:33):
an incredible experienceTremendous, tremendous growth
and Jewish outreach going onthere.
When we were there, and while wewere there, my husband had a
friend who was looking to hire.
They lived in Calgary, canada,western Canada.
So we moved there.
We were there for four years.
As our kids got older and weneeded more infrastructure, we
(02:54):
moved to Vancouver, westernCanada.
We were there for another sixyears and then again same sort
of story Our kids needed moreJewish infrastructure than the
community had at that time.
So we moved back to the UK andwe were there for six years and
a few months ago we moved toDenver to continue working for
(03:17):
the Jewish Experience, which isan outreach organization to
educate, to empower, to engageJews in Colorado.
So that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay, I have to actually preface this
conversation with saying thatPerkei Avis has always been one
of my favorite things to learn.
I look forward to it everysingle year and if you ever walk
into my house during the timebetween Pesach and Shavuos and
actually through the summerbecause as Lubavitchers, we
continue to say Perkei Avisthroughout the summer as well
you will see me and my husbandsitting on the couch and doing
Perkei Avis with our kids, andwe go through it, we translate
(03:53):
it, we talk about it.
I think there's so much wisdomand knowledge that when people
just read it and don'tunderstand what they're saying,
they're missing out on.
So I love that you've written abook about this, and love that
you've written a book about this, and I love that we get to have
a conversation aboutrelationships based on perky of
(04:14):
us.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So let's talk about why we wrote this book and what
is the power of relationships ingeneral?
All right, so firstly, I neverset out to write a book on perky
.
So what happened is duringCOVID I was teaching in the UK
and obviously COVID at thatpoint, I was teaching mostly
like women with kids, like moms.
And COVID was crazy, right,because people were home, they
were working, their kids werehome, and yet our time was so
(04:37):
stretched thin, and yet everyonewas searching for connection,
for meaning.
So I was thinking how do Ioffer something to people that's
meaningful and that they canaccess at a time that works for
them?
So I was discussing this withmy husband and we came up with
the idea of perco harvestbecause, as you say, perco
harvest is incredible.
(04:57):
It's got so much.
Like you know, when I was doingthe project I'll tell you a
little bit more about theproject there were so many times
when I was like oh, oh, my gosh, this is like thousands of
years old, but they could betalking about what we're going
through nowadays, like withtechnology, with social media,
like it's so relevant, it'sincredible.
So we came up with this idea oflet's go through Pirca Obvis.
(05:18):
It's accessible, something wecan bring back to our lives.
Over six months, I'll bring outlike two episodes on my podcast,
up to 15 minutes a week, sothat way people can listen
whenever right and it's 15minutes a week.
They can do while they're doingthe laundry, while they're
doing the dishes, while they'regoing for a walk.
I didn't know what I wasgetting myself into and, um, it
(05:39):
was incredible.
Um, because it was reallyreally hard, I have to say,
because, like doing thatconsistency of two episodes a
week of a podcast and going to aprayer club and trying to find
it was real commitment, which isgood, and it was incredible
because I did it for, you know,my students.
But it got much bigger thanthat.
(05:59):
Right, my podcast at that pointhit the top jewish podcast
worldwide and it was because thematerial was resonating with
people.
Right, it didn't matter wherepeople were on the religious
spectrum.
I would get messages frompeople saying, wow, this is
speaking to what I'm goingthrough right now.
And that's the power, really,of Kerkarvus is that it's got
that incredible wisdom thattalks to people where they're at
(06:22):
.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Okay, so let's shift the conversation a little bit
into relationships.
So what's the power ofrelationship?
Why are we, as humans, sofocused on the relationships
that are around us?
What is the basis for thisentire conversation that we're
about to have, you know?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
it's a really good question, and I would also ask
the question of, like you know,what do relationships bring to
our lives, right?
And sometimes would also askthe question of like you know,
what do relationships bring toour lives?
Right?
And sometimes, when I ask thisquestion, people will say you
know, they bring joy, they bringconnection, they bring
happiness.
Invariably, someone will alsosay stress right, Because
relationships can be thegreatest source of happiness and
(07:00):
joy in our life and they canalso be the greatest source of
stress in our life as well.
Right, so why?
Why do we have theserelationships right?
Why did God create us in thatway that, as humans, we're wired
for connection?
Right, we are wired forconnection.
We crave relationships.
We crave the right type ofrelationships and, in a very
(07:23):
brief story and I go into thismuch in the book is
relationships really can help usgrow as people?
Right, there are differenttypes of relationships that
we're supposed to have in ourlives.
We're supposed to, you know,have mentors, right, which is
someone that we can look up to,we can grow from, we can learn
from.
We're supposed to have friends.
That is something that is veryimportant to have to have
(07:46):
friends.
I mean, we all know we wantfriends, but it's also something
that it's important to have aswell.
Right, and we also need to havestudents.
We need to have people that wecan give to, we can teach as
well, and all these sorts ofdifferent types of relationships
really help keep us groundedand growing in our lives when
they're done right.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So you mentioned some relationships, you mentioned
mentors, you mentioned friends.
I'm assuming we're going tomention, you know, spouses and
children and all these otherrelationships that we have,
co-workers, etc.
Etc.
Can we, as humans, go throughlife missing some of them but
really focusing on other ones ofthem, or are they all really
necessary for us to you know?
(08:28):
Do we have to have mentors andwe have to have friends, and we
have to have a spouse and wehave to have children and we
need to have those casualacquaintances around the
neighborhood, or would it beokay if, like people went
through life and they were likelisten, I never really found a
mentor whatever.
I haven't been blessed withchildren and you know, it is
what it is.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Right.
So it's a really, really goodquestion, and I was trying to
categorize three different typesof relationships, and pretty
much every relationship fitsinto one of these three.
And then I'm going to answeryour question about can we go
through life without them, right?
So the first type ofrelationship is a relationship
with someone who's above us,right, and what that means is it
means that they are.
(09:08):
It doesn't have to be someonewho's completely above us.
It could be someone who's aboveus in a particular area in life
right, it could be.
They are above us when it comesto character development.
It could be.
They are above us when it comesto understanding people right,
it could be.
They're above us when it comesto religious level right,
someone that we can kind oflearn from.
(09:29):
Then we have peers, right,people that are more or less on
our level, right.
In this category, friends,spouse, co-workers usually come
under these, like all thosesorts of types of relationships
where we're more or less on thesame level, right.
And the third type ofrelationship are people that we
can teach, we can give to, right, so we're above them a little
(09:52):
bit in some level and some lifearea, right.
So, for example, under theseones would come.
Students, it would come.
You know children, if peoplehave that right, it would come.
Let's say, you're mentoringsomeone who's new to your field,
that would come under it aswell.
And can a person go throughlife without them?
Yes, many people do go throughlife without them, but we're
(10:15):
missing out, right, in orderreally to really stay grounded,
we need all those threedifferent types of relationships
, right, and again, I go intothis in my book as well is it
talks about like you know, welearn from our teachers.
We learn more from our students,right, like, how often has it
happened that people will saysomething?
(10:36):
I read a very short storyyesterday which illustrates this
beautifully, about a teacherwho said that, you know, one day
her student came in and shesaid to her after the class.
She said I'm really sorry, Iwas late, my mom died this
morning and I had nowhere elseto go.
Right, which is a chillingstory.
And the teacher learned fromthat like, wow, you can never
(10:58):
judge someone else because younever know what they're going
through.
Right Now, there's a learningthat comes from someone you know
who's a student.
There's a learning that comeswhen we're with like-minded
people, right, so we learn fromthe different types of people.
We learn from students, welearn from teachers, right.
We learn from mentors, we learnfrom peers, and then there's
(11:19):
different sort of insights andthings that we can learn from
having these different types ofrelationships in our lives.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So, just to recap, there are three types of
relationships one, that ofpeople who are, you know,
greater than us, who we canlearn from, which is kind of
like the mishpia relationship orthe mentor relationship.
And then there are people whoare, you know, our support,
people right on the same levelthat we learn.
We give, we take.
And then the people that we arein a giving position, where we
(11:46):
might learn from them, but theprimary role and responsibility
is teaching them and, you know,helping them grow.
What are the things that peopleshould be looking at in their
relationships?
What are the positive thingspeople want to get out of their
relationships?
According to the Pirkei Avis,what would be the things that
Tara tells us look, this is whatrelationships are there to
(12:07):
serve us.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So, firstly, I think you know, very often the
questions often come up aroundlike what do you do when you
have a bad relationship?
Right, a stressful relationship, a relationship that's having a
negative impact?
First, you've got to stop.
Right, you've got to back up alittle bit.
Right, you've got to focus onfilling your life with as many
of those positive relationshipsas possible.
Right, we'll talk about if wehave time, we'll talk about the
(12:30):
negative relationshipsabsolutely.
And Procovers talks about it.
Right, it doesn't ignore thefact that some relationships are
negative for us, but there's alot of focus that you have to
build those positiverelationships.
And it talks also about whatare those?
Like, what makes a good mentor?
Right, why do we need, you know, a mentor?
I think that sometimes thingsthat that, whether people you
(12:52):
know practically have thatquestion, or whether people
consciously have the question,like, why do we need a mentor?
We have Google, we have, youknow, a plethora of information
out there Like, what does amentor bring extra over it?
So there's there's a um analogythat I share, which is imagine
someone's got a cold right or asore throat, and they're like
(13:13):
okay, you know what, I've got asore throat, I know what I'll do
.
I'll go to the pharmacy and Iwill take all the medication for
a sore throat and one of themwill work.
Right?
We're listening to this andyou're hopefully thinking like
bad idea.
Don't do that, right, becauseit's ridiculous, right?
Instead, go to your doctor, goto your pharmacist.
(13:33):
Why?
Because the pharmacist, or thedoctor, has two things right.
Number one is they haveknowledge.
Right, they have knowledge ofthe body, they have knowledge of
medication and how thatinteracts with them.
Second thing is they take thetime to understand you, right,
and that's what we're lookingfor in a mentor, right?
(13:55):
Is someone who has livedknowledge of what we're trying
to achieve, right?
So, if it's a relationshipmentor that we want, well, they
someone who's respectful intheir relationship right, that
we want to see lived, who'srespectful in their relationship
right, that we want to seelived.
If they're, you know, a Torahmentor, like a life mentor, is
this someone who lives anauthentic Torah life, right,
like that's what we're lookingfor.
And number two, we're lookingfor someone who gets to know us
(14:18):
right, who we can build arelationship with so they can
understand us and give us thattailor-made advice, right, that
fits our life.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So we're talking about a mentor who has an
unbiased objective view of ourpersonal situation?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yes, although I'm not sure if unbiased I mean.
Look, the reality, I think, isthat all mentors are human right
.
So I don't know if unbiased iswhat we're shooting for, because
no one really is unbiased right, but we're looking for at least
someone who has, you know, anunderstanding of us, who takes
(14:58):
the time to understand what itis that we're looking to learn
and grow, and who has livedknowledge in whichever area it
is that we're looking to learnand grow, and who has lived
knowledge in whichever area itis that we're looking for right.
So will they get things wrong,absolutely right, because
they're human right, but atleast they have, you know, like
sometimes, for example, you knowit's someone, let's say, who
has 10 or 20 years lifeexperience more than this right.
(15:21):
So they have that moreexperience, that more wisdom,
right, it could be a rabbi, itcould be a robber, it could be
someone like that, someone who'sspent time learning and living
Torah values right, and we canshare things with them and
hopefully they have the humilityto listen to us and to take
things into account, but someonewho knows us and who knows real
(15:44):
Torah values right.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I'm sure you know this, gila, but the Lubavitcher
Rebbe spoke very much about, youknow, having a mashpia.
There were a few things thatthe Rebbe spoke about that were
abakash and afshes.
There was something that heasked from like a deeper place,
not just, you know, a directive,and one of the things was that
everyone should have a mashpia.
And in the Chabad communitythis is a discussion that
happens fairly young, you know.
(16:11):
I've had this discussion withmy kids around Bar Mitzvah age.
So, you know, it's not an adultwho's looking for a mentor in
their Avayah Hashem, oncethey're, you know, grown and
they're, you know, it's youngerteens who are, you know, doing
their self-development andthey're really looking for
someone to kind of guide them.
And and yeah, they may not allask it at that age, but the
thought process of let's lookfor people like that is really
out there and I think that it'sreally in the world at large.
(16:33):
I think that this discussion hasbecome much more mainstream of
finding a mentor and mentoringeach other and creating
mentoring programs, etc.
Etc.
Entire philosophy, entirethought for millennia.
This is not a new concept.
This is not a concept that youknow was founded, that we, you
(16:54):
know, we just modern.
You know this is something thatwe have been doing as a nation
for hundreds and hundreds andhundreds of years, thousands of
years.
You know it's something that ispart and parcel of how we kind
of structure our community, even.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, and I think with you that your, that your
kids are at such an advantage.
If you're starting thatconversation young, right, and
you're kind of building it intotheir mindset that yeah, it's
normal because, like a lot oftimes kind of people feel it can
be a real struggle to buildthat relationship with a mentor,
right, it kind of, you know,feels like you've got to be
vulnerable and you do have to bea bit vulnerable.
(17:28):
But when it's mainstream, thatof course that's beautiful.
I actually didn't know that itwas started so young and it's
really it's so powerful becauseyou know you need that and it
only serves us and it onlystrengthen us when we have those
people in our lives that we cando it.
And if people are not growingup with that thing, yeah, it can
(17:49):
be harder but it's never toolate to sort of find those
people that you can connect andinvest in, to sort of build a
relationship with, that sort ofrelationship with yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I want to also bring across one more thing.
It could be a very humblingexperience to ask someone to be
your mentor and, you know,whenever someone calls me and is
like, hi, rifki, can you be mymishpia, and it always comes
like a song and dance a littlebit like I know you're busy, I
know it's hard, I know, maybewhatever, but and I'm always
like it, you know, I'm sohonored that you thought of me.
Yeah, I am busy and I may nothave tremendous amount of time,
(18:19):
but if you call me, I will knowto be available because, like we
said, this is something that'sreally, really important, and I
want to also just end thisportion of what we're talking
about with an important point isthat you can outgrow the need
for a specific mentor.
So, just because you've askedsomeone to be your mishpia, or
you've asked someone to be yourmentor in your growth, that does
(18:41):
not mean that you're married tothem for life.
At a certain point, you might,you know, outgrow the need for
what that person was offering.
And you can go on and, you know, find someone else that better
suits your needs.
Maybe you're knee deep intoraising children and maybe
you're, you know, juggling olderchildren and younger children
or career and children orhealthcare, whatever stuff, and
(19:01):
so it's a very normal andnatural thing to outgrow a
mentor, and I don't think thatthat's an insult to the
relationship either.
I think it's just the naturalprocess of where people just
shift and change and pivot, andI just I think that that's a
very important part of thisconversation as well.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, you're right, because it's a sign of, usually,
your own growth, which is agood thing, right.
And I love what you said abouthumility, because sometimes that
act of it's important to knowthat the person you're asking is
probably going to be honored,and it's also important to know
that the act of us openingourselves up to ask for that is
growth in itself.
Right, because what you have todo to that is you not only have
(19:39):
to have a mentor in your life,but you have to open yourself up
to receiving what they have tooffer, and that is humility and
it's a massive step in ourgrowth.
So, yeah, those are twofantastic points.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Thank you.
The next relationship that wekind of touched upon but didn't
delve deep into is the husbandwife relationship.
What are the kind of guidingprinciples that the perky of us
give us about the spousalrelationship?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
So that's a very, very good question and it's
interesting because it isobviously a category of its own,
but it's more in like the peerrelationship, right, because
usually you're more less.
But Perkovis actually does kindof talk about how important it
is to have a meaningfulrelationship with a spouse,
right, like there's a very, verycontroversial statement in
(20:26):
Perkovis that says a manshouldn't talk too much with
women, not even his own wife.
Right, I knew you were going togo there the way.
I was like waiting for it.
I wasn't preparing to say this,but you went.
This we'll go there, right,which obviously I remember like
it's pretty early on inpro-carbohydrate.
It was one of those things likeI was like yikes, I offered to
go through this on thepro-carbohydrate.
(20:46):
Now let's try and understandwhat it means.
I think that's one of thebeautiful things about quick
hours is there's some things init that's like so easy to
understand, right, greeteveryone with a smile yeah, I
can get behind that and there'ssome things that kind of push us
a little bit right, which isgood.
It helps us think.
It helps us like widenourselves a little bit.
It helps us try to understandwhat's going on and one of the
points that this is trying tomake is that you can't just have
(21:09):
a relationship of small talk,right, you have to have a
meaningful relationship withyour spouse, right?
You know your values have to befront and center.
It has to be something thatyou're discussing, and sometimes
we can be afraid of havingthose things because we don't
want to rock the boat.
We don't want to, you know,make things conflict or make
things tricky, but it has to bea part of it, right?
(21:32):
And I've seen this a lot, youknow, a lot of times in people
that I work with, we havecouples where there's different
religious levels.
It's hard, right, it's veryhard and it's doable, right.
When a couple can have thatrespectful conversation with
each other, they come to learnabout each other.
They come to you know,challenge themselves through
discussion with each other.
They come to learn about eachother.
(21:52):
They come to you know,challenge themselves through
discussion with each other.
These things are verygrowth-oriented conversations,
so we have to incorporate thatinto our relationships.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So it's the digging deeper into you know, having
these conversations but alwaysputting them on the basis of
respect and communication.
So I love that you put thespousal relationship into the
peer relationship category,which I think that people don't
usually think about spousalrelationships as peer
relationships.
But I will say, as a Kalateacher, I find that the spouses
(22:24):
that come back to me with youknow we're really struggling in
our Shana Vashayna, we're reallyhaving a problem are the
couples who didn't have a lot ofhealthy social relationships
before their marriage, whetherit's both parts of the spouse or
just one.
Because in a large way, growingup, like as teens and as single
people, we kind of likepractice for the ultimate peer
(22:46):
relationship which is our spouse, and we do a lot of you know,
the learning about ourselves andlearning about how to
communicate and learning, youknow, with our siblings when
we're really young and you knowwith our siblings growing up and
then with our friends in schooland with, you know, our
coworkers, et cetera, et cetera.
And it's really interesting tome I think that that wouldn't be
everyone's natural, likeplacement of the spousal
(23:07):
relationship into the peerrelationship.
But I love that you actually putthat there because there's so
much that we can learn about howto just treat our spouse with
respect based on the socialnorms that we would anyways
treat anyone else and it wouldbe the same.
You know, approach things withcuriosity, even if you think you
know the answer or you knowjust please thank you.
(23:27):
You know like these reallyreally basic things.
So what does Perkevis talkabout?
Peer relationship in regardsnot specifically in regards to
spouses, but in regards to theoverall peer relationships?
What are the nuggets of wisdomthat Perkevis teach us?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
So, firstly, there's loads and loads and loads of
nuggets of wisdom in Perkevis.
I wanted to pick on somethingthat you just said about the
social relationships that wehave, because so many of the
tools that Prakavas talks aboutright, are applicable, right,
they're the same.
The things that build healthyrelationships outside of
marriage are also the tools thatkind of build healthy
(24:06):
relationships within a marriage,right?
And you know, kirk Harvesttalks about relationships and
then it ends with a phrase in itthat says have you done as
Connor Adam the castle, close,right, like, judge every person
favorably.
Why?
Why is it sticking it there?
Because it's telling us thathold on a second.
You want to have strongrelationships, know this.
(24:27):
Okay, judge everyone favorably.
And there's two things that wecan kind of learn from it is
that number one we are so greatat jumping to conclusion and
we're also so bad at it.
What do I mean by that is thatwe tend to jump to conclusions
but we're really bad at itbecause we usually get it wrong,
right.
And so when you talk about,like, approaching it with
(24:48):
curiosity, right, someone doessomething that you, you don't
understand why they've done it,instead of thinking, oh my gosh,
they don't like me or they're aterrible person, or I made a
terrible mistake in marryingthis person, or whatever it is.
Slow down, right, curiosity.
Why are they doing that?
What happened, right, let'stalk about it, let's be curious
(25:09):
about it.
Happened, right, like, let'stalk about it, let's be curious
about it.
And the second part about it isthat it says, which means the
whole person.
Really, it should say withoutthe he, which means the person,
all people, right, all people.
Why is it saying it?
Is it saying, and this is sucha powerful tool, especially in
marriage, right, judge the wholeperson.
(25:32):
And I'm curious if you've seenthis right that so often?
You know, people fall, theydate, they get engaged and it's
amazing.
And they're like, oh my gosh,he's amazing, he's so laid back
Six months a year later.
Oh my gosh, he drives me crazy.
He's always late.
That's what Flip side of thesame coin, right?
People that are so laid backare often laid back about time
(25:55):
as well, right?
So what ProcreOvis is saying iszoom out kind of thing.
Right?
No one is perfect, not even us,right, they're going to have
things that are flaws.
Right, but remember whatattracted you to this
relationship.
Put it in perspective, look atthe whole person.
Look at the whole person, lookat all the things that attract
(26:17):
you, all the positives, thenlook at the negatives.
Yeah, sure, look at the wholeperson.
And, by the way, we should dothis for ourselves as well.
We're so often, you know, we dosomething wrong and we're like,
oh my gosh, I'm a terribleparent, I'm a terrible spouse, I
something wrong and we're like,oh my gosh, I'm a terrible
parent, I'm a terrible spouse,I'm a terrible friend, I'm a
terrible this, I'm a terribleJew.
Right, people say that as well.
Slow down, right, look at thewhole picture, right, and the
(26:41):
whole person.
You've got good points.
You've got things that needimprovement.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So does everyone else as well.
That's so important.
And I do find that people, youknow, I actually warn my
colleagues.
I tell them, you know youactually worn my collars.
I tell them, you know you'regoing to have your first fight
and you're going to think like,oh my God, what did I do?
And it's okay, take a step back.
Like things usually, you know,have a way of working out.
We don't have to panic becauseyou know there are all these
other wonderful things andChenrushina is a whole lot about
that.
And Chenrushina, honestly,between you, me and everyone
(27:04):
else listening, is not reallythe first year.
It's really, you know, I wouldsay probably closer to the first
10 years, where you'readjusting and learning and, you
know, really doing all this hugegrowth.
The third relationship that youspoke about was the students,
the children, and I love thatyou brought students into here
because, you know, for peoplewho are struggling with
(27:25):
fertility, I think to have aspace where we can feel like, on
some way, we parent or we havethat parent-child type of
relationship even if you knowHashem hasn't gifted yet with
children, is a very importantthing to note.
And there's tremendousdifference that, you know,
mentors give and teachers giveand people in a position of
(27:48):
really changing people's lives.
So we're talking about both ofthose types of relationships.
What does Perke Aves talk about?
The upwards to downwardsrelationship, meaning the
student-teacher-parent-childrelationship.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Thanks so much, and I also want to share something is
that it's not just kids andformal students.
I think every single person canhave some people in their lives
that they can give to right,even if it's not a formal,
because there are people thatkind of like I don't teach, I'm
not a Mashpina, right, I'm notthis.
There is definitely.
(28:22):
Every person has people intheir lives that they can give
towards right, everyone hasthings that they've worked on,
stuff that they've gone throughthat they can help other people
with.
Right.
So, firstly, I want to widenthat to everyone.
Right, no matter where you areon the life spectrum, we always
have someone and I think this isa big Chabad philosophy as well
(28:44):
.
Right, you know Aleph, you goteach Aleph.
Right, and it tells us so, somuch about it.
And I think a big part of it isthe idea that we don't just
teach students but we learn fromour students as well.
Right, and sometimes thishappens, I think, with kids,
whether they're our own or otherpeople's kids.
Right, because kids are muchmore transparent than adults.
(29:06):
Right, so when we're kind offalling short of our own
standards, they'll point it out.
Right, and it's not necessarilyan easy thing.
Right, when we're kind offalling short of our own
standards, they'll point it out,right, and it's not necessarily
an easy thing, right, whenwe're faced with that, but it's
a good thing because it gives usthat opportunity to kind of
look at it and say, wow, youknow what, maybe I have
(29:26):
something to learn here, right,and I think, firstly, from a
relationship point of view, it'sso here, right, and I think,
firstly, from a relationshippoint of view, it's so important
, right, that ability to be ableto say, yeah, you know what,
I've got something to learn here.
And I think, in order for aperson to do this, we need that
tool that we spoke about last,which was judging ourselves for
(29:46):
favorably, not just other people, but ourselves as well.
Because when we're able to kindof look at what we did as a
behavior rather than anindication of who we are as a
person which, by the way, is avery, very Jewish concept right,
when it comes to Rosh Hashanahand Kippur, we talk about all
the things we do wrong.
We don't label ourselves, right, we label what we did wrong.
(30:06):
We don't say, you know, forgiveme, god, for I'm a stealer,
right, a robber, whatever yousay, forgive me because I stole
right.
We label the actions when,because the actions are
different than who we are.
Right we are.
We say this every single day.
We're a pure soul and we say ina kind of shama thank you, god,
that you have returned theshama to hurry.
(30:27):
My soul is pure.
It doesn't matter what we'vedone.
Right, we are pure.
And then, when we have thatunderstanding, we're more able
to see the things that we'refalling short of our mistakes
and kind of acknowledge them andmove forward from it.
The other thing that havingpeople that we give to what it
forces us or what it shouldforce us to do is to live up as
(30:50):
a role model.
Right, because when we realize,hold on a second, you know,
there are people that arelearning from me.
Right, there are people thatare kind of looking up to me,
got to behave in a way thatdoesn't let them down, so it
helps us keep our standards upas well.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I think my favorite thing about teachers is, like a
captain right, that a person whois of a certain personality
should not be teaching.
I don't know why, but I do knowwhy.
Maybe I shouldn't say it on apodcast children who perhaps
(31:27):
should not be in leadershiproles with children, and I often
think to myself you did notmake this up, this is something
that you know.
Unfortunately, you know hasbeen going on for a lot longer
than however long you're alive.
But again, it just brings meback to the point that, like
perky of this is not a newconcept.
(31:47):
Growth and development is not anew concept, and the way in
which we need to grow anddevelop as a community is
literally the exact same ascommunities of times past, and
so we're not unique and notchallenged, and I think that on
some level, that's reassuring,right.
It's reassuring to me that eventhough I think you know why,
haven't we learned this if it'swritten right here?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
But then we're human and you know humans are very
human, and so that's where wejust keep coming back to like
yeah, and I want to say that,firstly, leaders who lead from
their ego as opposed to from agood place, whether they're
leaders of children or adults,can be incredibly, incredibly
damaging.
And yes, I think one of thebeautiful things about
(32:31):
proclivics is it says it as itis right.
So it says someone who is likethat shouldn't be leading.
So it helps us, or people thathave experienced that, to kind
of actually turn around and sayhold on a second, this wasn't
right.
Right, which is a big part inthe healing of that is
recognizing this wasn't right.
It's not that this teacher wasgood teacher and I just messed
(32:53):
up and I couldn't think butactually some people shouldn't
be teaching right.
Yes, they may be, but if we canrecognize right that that's not
right, I think that that'shelpful as well right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So I think that that might be a reassuring sentiment
for people who are listening andmight be nodding their heads.
Ok, on a more positive note,how do we invest in
relationships?
So we said Perkevis, you know,has a deep focus on
relationships, and we gave someexamples about different types
of relationships and differentways that we can kind of like
learn how to have the bestoutcome from these types of
(33:28):
relationships.
But how do we invest inrelationships?
I would like to also likepreface this question by saying
that, on a lot of levels, ourlife today is much more
fragmented.
We're pulled in a lot moredifferent directions than many,
many generations past.
I mean, first of all, we haveno quiet.
As humans like, we'reconsistently connected to our
phones, we're accessible toeveryone all the time and maybe
(33:52):
that makes us quote, unquote andpeople who are listening you
don't see, but I'm making airquotes it makes us more
connected, but it really makesus a lot more disconnected.
So how do we in today's day andage learn from wisdom of
generations past on how we'resupposed to connect to the
people around us and invest inthese relationships, and how
important is it to invest in?
(34:12):
You know, all three equally,some more than others?
Does that fluctuate?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
So, firstly, I want to say that and Perko says it
straight out about it, rightwhat does it say?
It says what does that mean?
It means buy for yourself afriend.
What does it mean?
Like you go into a store andyou buy things no, you pay money
for a friend.
No, what it means is you haveto invest in a friendship, and I
think we need to hear thismessage nowadays, right, Because
(34:40):
we think I text someone, I sendthem a WhatsApp, I share with
them a funny meme.
That's not investing.
You actually have to invest,whether it's financially,
whether it's with our time,which is a lot harder for us.
It means you know what I'mactually going to do less so
that I can meet friends for awalk or meet a friend for a
(35:01):
coffee.
Right, Because it's important,it's so important to have those
relationships in our lives.
Pergamos is saying buy it right, Don't not like this.
You know, we understand thelanguage of buying right.
You have to give something upin order to get it right.
When we do it, we buy it allthe time because it's worth it.
It's the same thing here.
You have to invest in arelationship, you have to have
(35:24):
those conversations, you have tomeet.
You have to meet, you have totake time out, and even if it
means doing less, rightPre-Karvis is telling us right,
Go, do less and invest infriendships.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I feel like you're talking to me.
One of my Rosh Hashanahhaklotas was I would go out on
Sunday morning with a differentfriend.
I've done it twice, which isn'tvery reassuring, but I've done
it a lot more times with myhusband is my friend.
I've done it a lot more withhim this year, so you know we're
putting that into the samecategory.
What type of investment do youthink people should be making on
(36:03):
a practical level, meaning notjust oh, yes, it's important,
but where and how do we investin these relationships?
On a practical sense other thangoing out, I feel like the
Jewish way is we just go out toeat.
People who live in like largercommunities, like I do, like in
Brooklyn, it's like the easiestthing.
Hey, you want to meet forcoffee, want to meet for
breakfast?
Like that's the easy one.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And you know what.
That is a good thing.
I think it's a very individualanswer to it.
For a lot of us, it's aninvestment of time right answer
to it.
For a lot of us it's aninvestment of time, right.
It's not just texting someonehey, how are you.
It's saying let's get togetherright.
And there's an investment ofself as well.
Right, we have to be obviouslyto the right level, right, open,
(36:46):
vulnerable with each other tobuild real relationships and
with the right level and withthe right person as well.
But those are kind of the twothings that really come.
For some people it's one right,maybe it is, you know, but for
most of us, I think it's timeand self that we kind of have to
invest in the relationships.
And there's so much more we cantalk about.
Investment itself right,because you have to do it at the
(37:08):
right pace and with the rightperson.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And you know, so that the person doesn't get hurt.
So, essentially, what we'resaying is we need to prioritize
investing in those relationshipsand I think that if we talk
about the other types ofrelationships maybe there's a
more concentrated, you know,boundary type of relationship
with a mishpia or with a mentorI think it would be worthwhile
to spend a minute to talk aboutthe relationships with our
children or our students andreally talking about the
fragmentation that havingdevices around does bring.
(37:37):
So if you're in the classroomduring recess and it's your time
off, and you deserve time off,or if you're, you know,
unwinding after a long day atwork, but your kids are around
and you're scrolling on yourphone, and again you deserve to
have that space.
And I'm not saying you don't,but I do believe that a part of
this discussion also has to dowith the boundaries.
So it's not just prioritizingbut also really creating
(37:58):
boundaries in which we createthe spaces.
Not just prioritizing butcreating spaces for connection.
Because a kid who's in trouble,who might need a teacher, is
not coming over to a teacherwho's scrolling on their phone,
even if you're quote, unquotethere and available, that's not
really the message they'regiving.
And, for the same token, a kidwho you're half listening to is
not going to really open up toyou in a very real way, and
(38:21):
there was a time in my lifewhere I put my phone away from
five to seven.
I do not do that right now Ireally really should but I think
that there's value to havingspaces that are really
phone-free and device-free,where we are actually available
rather than just you know, quoteunquote available, meaning like
we're around and we're there,but are we really full-heartedly
(38:41):
listening?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
to.
And I want to also sharesomething that's maybe a little
bit easier, right, becauseyou're so right and we have the
reality of the fact that phonesare there and there's such a
distraction and it's so hard forus, for our kids, for our
students, to separate ourselvesfrom it.
We often kind of think of likerelationships as, like you know,
oh, it's the moments that wespend together versus like the
(39:04):
moments where we have to kind ofdiscipline them, right?
But the truth is, we also buildrelationships in how we treat
them, when those moments wherewe're teaching them, where we're
disciplining, et cetera.
Because if we could do that ina calm way, if we could do that
in a respectful way, if we canapologize when we mess up,
(39:24):
because we're all going to messup, we're all going to jump to
conclusions, we're all going tosay things that we regret,
whatever, but if we canapologize, those are very, very
powerful ways to buildrelationships as well.
Focus on where you can build therelationships right.
If you can put your phone awayfrom five to seven, that's
fantastic, amazing.
You put your way from five to515, that's also fantastic.
(39:44):
You're sitting at the suppertable, you know.
Just listen a little bit more.
Think of some great questionsto ask right, your kid does
something or your student doessomething that you're
disappointed with?
Phrase it in a way that showsthat you see that the good
person, that they are right, andall those are small little ways
(40:04):
that we can actually buildthose relationships, sometimes
very, very powerful, and the waywe behave to each other in this
small moments really are verypowerful in those relationships.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I love that you made it more attainable than this big
, huge, grand gesture.
I want to kind of pivot fromthe positivity and the
practicality just a little bit.
You don't get to like notparent a child who's being
really negative and you don'tget to leave a sibling who's you
know you're struggling withyour relationship with, or a
(40:34):
parent like you're.
You're going to have an ongoingrelationship with certain
people and those relationshipsmight not be the most positive
temporarily or for the long term, due to situations you just
can't control.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
You don't control someone else's mental health and
you don't control someoneelse's no-transcript, because
(41:16):
that's a separate discussionwhich let's talk about those
relationships that are negative.
And Pirca Obis is very outrightabout this and says don't think
for a moment that if you havenegative relationships in your
life that it's not going toimpact you, right, because just
like positive relationshipspropel us forward, negative
relationships have an impact aswell.
(41:38):
So I think that's, firstly,number one thing to understand
is that we can't just sort ofsay that you know, oh, whatever
this person is brings me down oris negative, like, but I'm okay
with that, I'm going to be fine.
And sometimes thoserelationships can be fun, right,
you have a friend who's fun butjust pulls you down, right, and
(42:00):
it can be harder to identify inthat sort of situation.
And sometimes those sort ofsituations, if you can get to
the place where you identify,actually this is having a
negative impact on me, it'seasier to separate yourself from
that relationship.
And I want to also say that it'ssuch an important topic and
it's such a big topic and it'ssuch a personal topic and it's
(42:20):
also a topic that doesn't haveeasy answers to, right, but we
do talk about cutting offrelationships, and what do I
mean by that is by sometimes youhave to put boundaries in place
, right, you have to put strongboundaries in place If someone
is having a negative impact onyou and it's really something
(42:41):
that you should be workingthrough with someone that you
can work through it with whetherit's a mentor who understands
these kinds of things, right,therapist or someone who can
help with this but you sometimeshave to put very strong
boundaries into place and sayyou know what, these are the
parameters of which I can beinvolved in this relationship
(43:02):
without it having a negativeimpact on me.
And sometimes a person has tocut themselves off from a
relationship for a certainamount of time or whatever,
because relationships have animpact on us, right?
So if it's a negativerelationship, we have to
recognize the impact that it'shaving on us and then sort of
try and figure out under whatparameters can I continue this
(43:24):
relationship so that it doesn'thave that negative impact on me
right.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I think this value to the boundaries and the
parameters that people do putout and I think that as a
society, we're, you know,starting to really embrace the
power of you know boundaries andaccepting the positivity and
really leaving the other ones.
I do want to say two pointshere.
The first one is, when I askedthe question, I was not talking
about little children.
I was talking about, you know,potentially adult children,
(43:50):
where they're already grown andself-sufficient, et cetera.
I want to end with a question,a personal question what is your
favorite, mishnah in PirkeiAvis, and why?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Oh, that's a really hard question.
What's my favorite?
Mishnah in Pirkei Aves?
Do I have to pick one?
Speaker 1 (44:16):
for the sake of this conversation.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yes, it's a really hard question for me to answer
and and I'll tell you why it'sreally hard because I think the
beauty of Pirkei Avis for me isthe vastness, right, and the
fact that it speaks to differentpeople at different places and
is so relatable to our lives.
(44:38):
And I think you know, at theend of the book, when I finished
writing my book and I was kindof trying to write, you know the
end chapter and sort of figureout, like what is it I want
people to get from this book?
And what I wrote and what Ireally want people to get is
take something that resonates toyou.
And that thing that resonatesto you may change as time comes
(45:00):
past.
Right, right now, I love themission that talks about
investing in friendships because, maybe because it's something
that I need to work on, right,you know it talks to where I'm
at in my life.
It talks to, I think, where alot of people are in our lives
is that, yes, you know I'll dothe job and I'll do whatever the
hell works and when I have time, I'll meet a friend for coffee,
right, or I'll meet someone toconnect with them.
(45:21):
It's like no right, make theseparation.
So maybe that's what'sresonating with me really right
now.
But the beauty of it is thatthere's so much in there and it
relates to different people atdifferent things and there's so
many things that you can pickout from it that really speaks
to our personal lives.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love that.
Gila, thank you so much for allthe words of wisdom, for the
ability to look at differentparts of our relationships in
different ways and to reallygain perspective about some of
our relationships in differentways and to really gain
perspective about some of thestatements in Perky Abbas.
If people want to reach out toyou or to follow you or to hear
more about this, where can theydo that?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
You can email me always gilaross at gmailcom,
it's an easy email to remember.
You can follow me on Instagrammy handle is itsgilaross.
And also I'd love to give ourlisteners a coupon for if they
would like to go ahead andpurchase my book, so I'll send
you the details and then you canput it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Absolutely A hundred percent.
So thank you so much, gila, fortaking the time to talk to us
today about relationships from aTARA perspective and
specifically from the Perkiav'sperspective.
This was a real treat, thankyou.
(46:45):
Thank you so much, rishki.
I am so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to
spend the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
at bodysoulscom Remember that'stwo S's.
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing, or if you
(47:07):
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
Good morning and welcome to Bodies and Souls, the
space in which you hear realconversations from real Jewish
women talking about topics thatare relevant to you.
You're going to walk away fromthis conversation inspired,
connected and feeling uplifted.
Today we have Gila Ross with us.
Gila is going to talk to usabout Pirkei Avis and this
unique period in which we findourselves in.
Pirkei Avis is something weread by rote every single year.
(00:26):
This year, my hope is thatyou're going to read it and it's
going to be meaningful to yourlife today, because Pirkei Avis
is not a composition of wordsthat we should just say every
single Shabbos between Pesachand Shavuos, but it's a tool of
self-growth, and Gila and I aregoing to take a deep dive into
why Pirkei Avis is just asrelevant today as it was when it
(00:47):
was compiled.
So, without further ado, hereis Gila.
Good morning and welcome toBodies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
I am here with Gila Ross.
Gila is the director of Womenand Families for the Jewish
Experience in Denver, colorado.
(01:08):
For those of you who don't know, the Jewish Experience is a
Kirov organization and Gilaactually just moved out there
six months ago, so she hasimpacted lives in Germany,
canada, the UK, and has reallydone beautiful work.
You can find her on Instagram.
You can also find her on PowerUp, which is her podcast.
She is the author of LivingBeautifully.
(01:29):
Living Beautifully is a bookwhich navigates the complex
terrains of life, providing thetools and principles to
appreciate what is trulyvaluable.
It is a book that is based onPerke Avis and it is the basis
of our conversation here today.
So, gila, I am so excited forour conversation here.
Start off by telling us alittle bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay, well, firstly I just wanted to say thank you so
much for having me.
It's a real honor and I'mexcited to have this
conversation.
So a little bit about myself,as I grew up in the UK, lived in
the UK pretty much until I gotmarried when my husband and I
moved to Israel for a couple ofyears two and a half years we
were there and while we werethere we did Nerda Elef, which
(02:11):
is a leadership training course.
What it is is in those days.
What it was is that it was atwo-year commitment, that you
took this two-year course andthen you committed to moving to
a smaller Jewish communityoutside of Israel to take on a
leadership position.
So we did that.
And then we moved to Germanyfor a year and a half, which was
(02:33):
an incredible experienceTremendous, tremendous growth
and Jewish outreach going onthere.
When we were there, and while wewere there, my husband had a
friend who was looking to hire.
They lived in Calgary, canada,western Canada.
So we moved there.
We were there for four years.
As our kids got older and weneeded more infrastructure, we
(02:54):
moved to Vancouver, westernCanada.
We were there for another sixyears and then again same sort
of story Our kids needed moreJewish infrastructure than the
community had at that time.
So we moved back to the UK andwe were there for six years and
a few months ago we moved toDenver to continue working for
(03:17):
the Jewish Experience, which isan outreach organization to
educate, to empower, to engageJews in Colorado.
So that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay, I have to actually preface this
conversation with saying thatPerkei Avis has always been one
of my favorite things to learn.
I look forward to it everysingle year and if you ever walk
into my house during the timebetween Pesach and Shavuos and
actually through the summerbecause as Lubavitchers, we
continue to say Perkei Avisthroughout the summer as well
you will see me and my husbandsitting on the couch and doing
Perkei Avis with our kids, andwe go through it, we translate
(03:53):
it, we talk about it.
I think there's so much wisdomand knowledge that when people
just read it and don'tunderstand what they're saying,
they're missing out on.
So I love that you've written abook about this, and love that
you've written a book about this, and I love that we get to have
a conversation aboutrelationships based on perky of
(04:14):
us.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So let's talk about why we wrote this book and what
is the power of relationships ingeneral?
All right, so firstly, I neverset out to write a book on perky
.
So what happened is duringCOVID I was teaching in the UK
and obviously COVID at thatpoint, I was teaching mostly
like women with kids, like moms.
And COVID was crazy, right,because people were home, they
were working, their kids werehome, and yet our time was so
(04:37):
stretched thin, and yet everyonewas searching for connection,
for meaning.
So I was thinking how do Ioffer something to people that's
meaningful and that they canaccess at a time that works for
them?
So I was discussing this withmy husband and we came up with
the idea of perco harvestbecause, as you say, perco
harvest is incredible.
(04:57):
It's got so much.
Like you know, when I was doingthe project I'll tell you a
little bit more about theproject there were so many times
when I was like oh, oh, my gosh, this is like thousands of
years old, but they could betalking about what we're going
through nowadays, like withtechnology, with social media,
like it's so relevant, it'sincredible.
So we came up with this idea oflet's go through Pirca Obvis.
(05:18):
It's accessible, something wecan bring back to our lives.
Over six months, I'll bring outlike two episodes on my podcast,
up to 15 minutes a week, sothat way people can listen
whenever right and it's 15minutes a week.
They can do while they're doingthe laundry, while they're
doing the dishes, while they'regoing for a walk.
I didn't know what I wasgetting myself into and, um, it
(05:39):
was incredible.
Um, because it was reallyreally hard, I have to say,
because, like doing thatconsistency of two episodes a
week of a podcast and going to aprayer club and trying to find
it was real commitment, which isgood, and it was incredible
because I did it for, you know,my students.
But it got much bigger thanthat.
(05:59):
Right, my podcast at that pointhit the top jewish podcast
worldwide and it was because thematerial was resonating with
people.
Right, it didn't matter wherepeople were on the religious
spectrum.
I would get messages frompeople saying, wow, this is
speaking to what I'm goingthrough right now.
And that's the power, really,of Kerkarvus is that it's got
that incredible wisdom thattalks to people where they're at
(06:22):
.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Okay, so let's shift the conversation a little bit
into relationships.
So what's the power ofrelationship?
Why are we, as humans, sofocused on the relationships
that are around us?
What is the basis for thisentire conversation that we're
about to have, you know?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
it's a really good question, and I would also ask
the question of, like you know,what do relationships bring to
our lives, right?
And sometimes would also askthe question of like you know,
what do relationships bring toour lives?
Right?
And sometimes, when I ask thisquestion, people will say you
know, they bring joy, they bringconnection, they bring
happiness.
Invariably, someone will alsosay stress right, Because
relationships can be thegreatest source of happiness and
(07:00):
joy in our life and they canalso be the greatest source of
stress in our life as well.
Right, so why?
Why do we have theserelationships right?
Why did God create us in thatway that, as humans, we're wired
for connection?
Right, we are wired forconnection.
We crave relationships.
We crave the right type ofrelationships and, in a very
(07:23):
brief story and I go into thismuch in the book is
relationships really can help usgrow as people?
Right, there are differenttypes of relationships that
we're supposed to have in ourlives.
We're supposed to, you know,have mentors, right, which is
someone that we can look up to,we can grow from, we can learn
from.
We're supposed to have friends.
That is something that is veryimportant to have to have
(07:46):
friends.
I mean, we all know we wantfriends, but it's also something
that it's important to have aswell.
Right, and we also need to havestudents.
We need to have people that wecan give to, we can teach as
well, and all these sorts ofdifferent types of relationships
really help keep us groundedand growing in our lives when
they're done right.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So you mentioned some relationships, you mentioned
mentors, you mentioned friends.
I'm assuming we're going tomention, you know, spouses and
children and all these otherrelationships that we have,
co-workers, etc.
Etc.
Can we, as humans, go throughlife missing some of them but
really focusing on other ones ofthem, or are they all really
necessary for us to you know?
(08:28):
Do we have to have mentors andwe have to have friends, and we
have to have a spouse and wehave to have children and we
need to have those casualacquaintances around the
neighborhood, or would it beokay if, like people went
through life and they were likelisten, I never really found a
mentor whatever.
I haven't been blessed withchildren and you know, it is
what it is.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Right.
So it's a really, really goodquestion, and I was trying to
categorize three different typesof relationships, and pretty
much every relationship fitsinto one of these three.
And then I'm going to answeryour question about can we go
through life without them, right?
So the first type ofrelationship is a relationship
with someone who's above us,right, and what that means is it
means that they are.
(09:08):
It doesn't have to be someonewho's completely above us.
It could be someone who's aboveus in a particular area in life
right, it could be.
They are above us when it comesto character development.
It could be.
They are above us when it comesto understanding people right,
it could be.
They're above us when it comesto religious level right,
someone that we can kind oflearn from.
(09:29):
Then we have peers, right,people that are more or less on
our level, right.
In this category, friends,spouse, co-workers usually come
under these, like all thosesorts of types of relationships
where we're more or less on thesame level, right.
And the third type ofrelationship are people that we
can teach, we can give to, right, so we're above them a little
(09:52):
bit in some level and some lifearea, right.
So, for example, under theseones would come.
Students, it would come.
You know children, if peoplehave that right, it would come.
Let's say, you're mentoringsomeone who's new to your field,
that would come under it aswell.
And can a person go throughlife without them?
Yes, many people do go throughlife without them, but we're
(10:15):
missing out, right, in orderreally to really stay grounded,
we need all those threedifferent types of relationships
, right, and again, I go intothis in my book as well is it
talks about like you know, welearn from our teachers.
We learn more from our students,right, like, how often has it
happened that people will saysomething?
(10:36):
I read a very short storyyesterday which illustrates this
beautifully, about a teacherwho said that, you know, one day
her student came in and shesaid to her after the class.
She said I'm really sorry, Iwas late, my mom died this
morning and I had nowhere elseto go.
Right, which is a chillingstory.
And the teacher learned fromthat like, wow, you can never
(10:58):
judge someone else because younever know what they're going
through.
Right Now, there's a learningthat comes from someone you know
who's a student.
There's a learning that comeswhen we're with like-minded
people, right, so we learn fromthe different types of people.
We learn from students, welearn from teachers, right.
We learn from mentors, we learnfrom peers, and then there's
(11:19):
different sort of insights andthings that we can learn from
having these different types ofrelationships in our lives.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So, just to recap, there are three types of
relationships one, that ofpeople who are, you know,
greater than us, who we canlearn from, which is kind of
like the mishpia relationship orthe mentor relationship.
And then there are people whoare, you know, our support,
people right on the same levelthat we learn.
We give, we take.
And then the people that we arein a giving position, where we
(11:46):
might learn from them, but theprimary role and responsibility
is teaching them and, you know,helping them grow.
What are the things that peopleshould be looking at in their
relationships?
What are the positive thingspeople want to get out of their
relationships?
According to the Pirkei Avis,what would be the things that
Tara tells us look, this is whatrelationships are there to
(12:07):
serve us.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So, firstly, I think you know, very often the
questions often come up aroundlike what do you do when you
have a bad relationship?
Right, a stressful relationship, a relationship that's having a
negative impact?
First, you've got to stop.
Right, you've got to back up alittle bit.
Right, you've got to focus onfilling your life with as many
of those positive relationshipsas possible.
Right, we'll talk about if wehave time, we'll talk about the
(12:30):
negative relationshipsabsolutely.
And Procovers talks about it.
Right, it doesn't ignore thefact that some relationships are
negative for us, but there's alot of focus that you have to
build those positiverelationships.
And it talks also about whatare those?
Like, what makes a good mentor?
Right, why do we need, you know, a mentor?
I think that sometimes thingsthat that, whether people you
(12:52):
know practically have thatquestion, or whether people
consciously have the question,like, why do we need a mentor?
We have Google, we have, youknow, a plethora of information
out there Like, what does amentor bring extra over it?
So there's there's a um analogythat I share, which is imagine
someone's got a cold right or asore throat, and they're like
(13:13):
okay, you know what, I've got asore throat, I know what I'll do
.
I'll go to the pharmacy and Iwill take all the medication for
a sore throat and one of themwill work.
Right?
We're listening to this andyou're hopefully thinking like
bad idea.
Don't do that, right, becauseit's ridiculous, right?
Instead, go to your doctor, goto your pharmacist.
(13:33):
Why?
Because the pharmacist, or thedoctor, has two things right.
Number one is they haveknowledge.
Right, they have knowledge ofthe body, they have knowledge of
medication and how thatinteracts with them.
Second thing is they take thetime to understand you, right,
and that's what we're lookingfor in a mentor, right?
(13:55):
Is someone who has livedknowledge of what we're trying
to achieve, right?
So, if it's a relationshipmentor that we want, well, they
someone who's respectful intheir relationship right, that
we want to see lived, who'srespectful in their relationship
right, that we want to seelived.
If they're, you know, a Torahmentor, like a life mentor, is
this someone who lives anauthentic Torah life, right,
like that's what we're lookingfor.
And number two, we're lookingfor someone who gets to know us
(14:18):
right, who we can build arelationship with so they can
understand us and give us thattailor-made advice, right, that
fits our life.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So we're talking about a mentor who has an
unbiased objective view of ourpersonal situation?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yes, although I'm not sure if unbiased I mean.
Look, the reality, I think, isthat all mentors are human right
.
So I don't know if unbiased iswhat we're shooting for, because
no one really is unbiased right, but we're looking for at least
someone who has, you know, anunderstanding of us, who takes
(14:58):
the time to understand what itis that we're looking to learn
and grow, and who has livedknowledge in whichever area it
is that we're looking to learnand grow, and who has lived
knowledge in whichever area itis that we're looking for right.
So will they get things wrong,absolutely right, because
they're human right, but atleast they have, you know, like
sometimes, for example, you knowit's someone, let's say, who
has 10 or 20 years lifeexperience more than this right.
(15:21):
So they have that moreexperience, that more wisdom,
right, it could be a rabbi, itcould be a robber, it could be
someone like that, someone who'sspent time learning and living
Torah values right, and we canshare things with them and
hopefully they have the humilityto listen to us and to take
things into account, but someonewho knows us and who knows real
(15:44):
Torah values right.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I'm sure you know this, gila, but the Lubavitcher
Rebbe spoke very much about, youknow, having a mashpia.
There were a few things thatthe Rebbe spoke about that were
abakash and afshes.
There was something that heasked from like a deeper place,
not just, you know, a directive,and one of the things was that
everyone should have a mashpia.
And in the Chabad communitythis is a discussion that
happens fairly young, you know.
(16:11):
I've had this discussion withmy kids around Bar Mitzvah age.
So, you know, it's not an adultwho's looking for a mentor in
their Avayah Hashem, oncethey're, you know, grown and
they're, you know, it's youngerteens who are, you know, doing
their self-development andthey're really looking for
someone to kind of guide them.
And and yeah, they may not allask it at that age, but the
thought process of let's lookfor people like that is really
out there and I think that it'sreally in the world at large.
(16:33):
I think that this discussion hasbecome much more mainstream of
finding a mentor and mentoringeach other and creating
mentoring programs, etc.
Etc.
Entire philosophy, entirethought for millennia.
This is not a new concept.
This is not a concept that youknow was founded, that we, you
(16:54):
know, we just modern.
You know this is something thatwe have been doing as a nation
for hundreds and hundreds andhundreds of years, thousands of
years.
You know it's something that ispart and parcel of how we kind
of structure our community, even.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, and I think with you that your, that your
kids are at such an advantage.
If you're starting thatconversation young, right, and
you're kind of building it intotheir mindset that yeah, it's
normal because, like a lot oftimes kind of people feel it can
be a real struggle to buildthat relationship with a mentor,
right, it kind of, you know,feels like you've got to be
vulnerable and you do have to bea bit vulnerable.
(17:28):
But when it's mainstream, thatof course that's beautiful.
I actually didn't know that itwas started so young and it's
really it's so powerful becauseyou know you need that and it
only serves us and it onlystrengthen us when we have those
people in our lives that we cando it.
And if people are not growingup with that thing, yeah, it can
(17:49):
be harder but it's never toolate to sort of find those
people that you can connect andinvest in, to sort of build a
relationship with, that sort ofrelationship with yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I want to also bring across one more thing.
It could be a very humblingexperience to ask someone to be
your mentor and, you know,whenever someone calls me and is
like, hi, rifki, can you be mymishpia, and it always comes
like a song and dance a littlebit like I know you're busy, I
know it's hard, I know, maybewhatever, but and I'm always
like it, you know, I'm sohonored that you thought of me.
Yeah, I am busy and I may nothave tremendous amount of time,
(18:19):
but if you call me, I will knowto be available because, like we
said, this is something that'sreally, really important, and I
want to also just end thisportion of what we're talking
about with an important point isthat you can outgrow the need
for a specific mentor.
So, just because you've askedsomeone to be your mishpia, or
you've asked someone to be yourmentor in your growth, that does
(18:41):
not mean that you're married tothem for life.
At a certain point, you might,you know, outgrow the need for
what that person was offering.
And you can go on and, you know, find someone else that better
suits your needs.
Maybe you're knee deep intoraising children and maybe
you're, you know, juggling olderchildren and younger children
or career and children orhealthcare, whatever stuff, and
(19:01):
so it's a very normal andnatural thing to outgrow a
mentor, and I don't think thatthat's an insult to the
relationship either.
I think it's just the naturalprocess of where people just
shift and change and pivot, andI just I think that that's a
very important part of thisconversation as well.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, you're right, because it's a sign of, usually,
your own growth, which is agood thing, right.
And I love what you said abouthumility, because sometimes that
act of it's important to knowthat the person you're asking is
probably going to be honored,and it's also important to know
that the act of us openingourselves up to ask for that is
growth in itself.
Right, because what you have todo to that is you not only have
(19:39):
to have a mentor in your life,but you have to open yourself up
to receiving what they have tooffer, and that is humility and
it's a massive step in ourgrowth.
So, yeah, those are twofantastic points.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Thank you.
The next relationship that wekind of touched upon but didn't
delve deep into is the husbandwife relationship.
What are the kind of guidingprinciples that the perky of us
give us about the spousalrelationship?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
So that's a very, very good question and it's
interesting because it isobviously a category of its own,
but it's more in like the peerrelationship, right, because
usually you're more less.
But Perkovis actually does kindof talk about how important it
is to have a meaningfulrelationship with a spouse,
right, like there's a very, verycontroversial statement in
(20:26):
Perkovis that says a manshouldn't talk too much with
women, not even his own wife.
Right, I knew you were going togo there the way.
I was like waiting for it.
I wasn't preparing to say this,but you went.
This we'll go there, right,which obviously I remember like
it's pretty early on inpro-carbohydrate.
It was one of those things likeI was like yikes, I offered to
go through this on thepro-carbohydrate.
(20:46):
Now let's try and understandwhat it means.
I think that's one of thebeautiful things about quick
hours is there's some things init that's like so easy to
understand, right, greeteveryone with a smile yeah, I
can get behind that and there'ssome things that kind of push us
a little bit right, which isgood.
It helps us think.
It helps us like widenourselves a little bit.
It helps us try to understandwhat's going on and one of the
points that this is trying tomake is that you can't just have
(21:09):
a relationship of small talk,right, you have to have a
meaningful relationship withyour spouse, right?
You know your values have to befront and center.
It has to be something thatyou're discussing, and sometimes
we can be afraid of havingthose things because we don't
want to rock the boat.
We don't want to, you know,make things conflict or make
things tricky, but it has to bea part of it, right?
(21:32):
And I've seen this a lot, youknow, a lot of times in people
that I work with, we havecouples where there's different
religious levels.
It's hard, right, it's veryhard and it's doable, right.
When a couple can have thatrespectful conversation with
each other, they come to learnabout each other.
They come to you know,challenge themselves through
discussion with each other.
They come to learn about eachother.
(21:52):
They come to you know,challenge themselves through
discussion with each other.
These things are verygrowth-oriented conversations,
so we have to incorporate thatinto our relationships.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So it's the digging deeper into you know, having
these conversations but alwaysputting them on the basis of
respect and communication.
So I love that you put thespousal relationship into the
peer relationship category,which I think that people don't
usually think about spousalrelationships as peer
relationships.
But I will say, as a Kalateacher, I find that the spouses
(22:24):
that come back to me with youknow we're really struggling in
our Shana Vashayna, we're reallyhaving a problem are the
couples who didn't have a lot ofhealthy social relationships
before their marriage, whetherit's both parts of the spouse or
just one.
Because in a large way, growingup, like as teens and as single
people, we kind of likepractice for the ultimate peer
(22:46):
relationship which is our spouse, and we do a lot of you know,
the learning about ourselves andlearning about how to
communicate and learning, youknow, with our siblings when
we're really young and you knowwith our siblings growing up and
then with our friends in schooland with, you know, our
coworkers, et cetera, et cetera.
And it's really interesting tome I think that that wouldn't be
everyone's natural, likeplacement of the spousal
(23:07):
relationship into the peerrelationship.
But I love that you actually putthat there because there's so
much that we can learn about howto just treat our spouse with
respect based on the socialnorms that we would anyways
treat anyone else and it wouldbe the same.
You know, approach things withcuriosity, even if you think you
know the answer or you knowjust please thank you.
(23:27):
You know like these reallyreally basic things.
So what does Perkevis talkabout?
Peer relationship in regardsnot specifically in regards to
spouses, but in regards to theoverall peer relationships?
What are the nuggets of wisdomthat Perkevis teach us?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
So, firstly, there's loads and loads and loads of
nuggets of wisdom in Perkevis.
I wanted to pick on somethingthat you just said about the
social relationships that wehave, because so many of the
tools that Prakavas talks aboutright, are applicable, right,
they're the same.
The things that build healthyrelationships outside of
marriage are also the tools thatkind of build healthy
(24:06):
relationships within a marriage,right?
And you know, kirk Harvesttalks about relationships and
then it ends with a phrase in itthat says have you done as
Connor Adam the castle, close,right, like, judge every person
favorably.
Why?
Why is it sticking it there?
Because it's telling us thathold on a second.
You want to have strongrelationships, know this.
(24:27):
Okay, judge everyone favorably.
And there's two things that wecan kind of learn from it is
that number one we are so greatat jumping to conclusion and
we're also so bad at it.
What do I mean by that is thatwe tend to jump to conclusions
but we're really bad at itbecause we usually get it wrong,
right.
And so when you talk about,like, approaching it with
(24:48):
curiosity, right, someone doessomething that you, you don't
understand why they've done it,instead of thinking, oh my gosh,
they don't like me or they're aterrible person, or I made a
terrible mistake in marryingthis person, or whatever it is.
Slow down, right, curiosity.
Why are they doing that?
What happened, right, let'stalk about it, let's be curious
(25:09):
about it.
Happened, right, like, let'stalk about it, let's be curious
about it.
And the second part about it isthat it says, which means the
whole person.
Really, it should say withoutthe he, which means the person,
all people, right, all people.
Why is it saying it?
Is it saying, and this is sucha powerful tool, especially in
marriage, right, judge the wholeperson.
(25:32):
And I'm curious if you've seenthis right that so often?
You know, people fall, theydate, they get engaged and it's
amazing.
And they're like, oh my gosh,he's amazing, he's so laid back
Six months a year later.
Oh my gosh, he drives me crazy.
He's always late.
That's what Flip side of thesame coin, right?
People that are so laid backare often laid back about time
(25:55):
as well, right?
So what ProcreOvis is saying iszoom out kind of thing.
Right?
No one is perfect, not even us,right, they're going to have
things that are flaws.
Right, but remember whatattracted you to this
relationship.
Put it in perspective, look atthe whole person.
Look at the whole person, lookat all the things that attract
(26:17):
you, all the positives, thenlook at the negatives.
Yeah, sure, look at the wholeperson.
And, by the way, we should dothis for ourselves as well.
We're so often, you know, we dosomething wrong and we're like,
oh my gosh, I'm a terribleparent, I'm a terrible spouse, I
something wrong and we're like,oh my gosh, I'm a terrible
parent, I'm a terrible spouse,I'm a terrible friend, I'm a
terrible this, I'm a terribleJew.
Right, people say that as well.
Slow down, right, look at thewhole picture, right, and the
(26:41):
whole person.
You've got good points.
You've got things that needimprovement.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So does everyone else as well.
That's so important.
And I do find that people, youknow, I actually warn my
colleagues.
I tell them, you know youactually worn my collars.
I tell them, you know you'regoing to have your first fight
and you're going to think like,oh my God, what did I do?
And it's okay, take a step back.
Like things usually, you know,have a way of working out.
We don't have to panic becauseyou know there are all these
other wonderful things andChenrushina is a whole lot about
that.
And Chenrushina, honestly,between you, me and everyone
(27:04):
else listening, is not reallythe first year.
It's really, you know, I wouldsay probably closer to the first
10 years, where you'readjusting and learning and, you
know, really doing all this hugegrowth.
The third relationship that youspoke about was the students,
the children, and I love thatyou brought students into here
because, you know, for peoplewho are struggling with
(27:25):
fertility, I think to have aspace where we can feel like, on
some way, we parent or we havethat parent-child type of
relationship even if you knowHashem hasn't gifted yet with
children, is a very importantthing to note.
And there's tremendousdifference that, you know,
mentors give and teachers giveand people in a position of
(27:48):
really changing people's lives.
So we're talking about both ofthose types of relationships.
What does Perke Aves talk about?
The upwards to downwardsrelationship, meaning the
student-teacher-parent-childrelationship.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Thanks so much, and I also want to share something is
that it's not just kids andformal students.
I think every single person canhave some people in their lives
that they can give to right,even if it's not a formal,
because there are people thatkind of like I don't teach, I'm
not a Mashpina, right, I'm notthis.
There is definitely.
(28:22):
Every person has people intheir lives that they can give
towards right, everyone hasthings that they've worked on,
stuff that they've gone throughthat they can help other people
with.
Right.
So, firstly, I want to widenthat to everyone.
Right, no matter where you areon the life spectrum, we always
have someone and I think this isa big Chabad philosophy as well
(28:44):
.
Right, you know Aleph, you goteach Aleph.
Right, and it tells us so, somuch about it.
And I think a big part of it isthe idea that we don't just
teach students but we learn fromour students as well.
Right, and sometimes thishappens, I think, with kids,
whether they're our own or otherpeople's kids.
Right, because kids are muchmore transparent than adults.
(29:06):
Right, so when we're kind offalling short of our own
standards, they'll point it out.
Right, and it's not necessarilyan easy thing.
Right, when we're kind offalling short of our own
standards, they'll point it out,right, and it's not necessarily
an easy thing, right, whenwe're faced with that, but it's
a good thing because it gives usthat opportunity to kind of
look at it and say, wow, youknow what, maybe I have
(29:26):
something to learn here, right,and I think, firstly, from a
relationship point of view, it'sso here, right, and I think,
firstly, from a relationshippoint of view, it's so important
, right, that ability to be ableto say, yeah, you know what,
I've got something to learn here.
And I think, in order for aperson to do this, we need that
tool that we spoke about last,which was judging ourselves for
(29:46):
favorably, not just other people, but ourselves as well.
Because when we're able to kindof look at what we did as a
behavior rather than anindication of who we are as a
person which, by the way, is avery, very Jewish concept right,
when it comes to Rosh Hashanahand Kippur, we talk about all
the things we do wrong.
We don't label ourselves, right, we label what we did wrong.
(30:06):
We don't say, you know, forgiveme, god, for I'm a stealer,
right, a robber, whatever yousay, forgive me because I stole
right.
We label the actions when,because the actions are
different than who we are.
Right we are.
We say this every single day.
We're a pure soul and we say ina kind of shama thank you, god,
that you have returned theshama to hurry.
(30:27):
My soul is pure.
It doesn't matter what we'vedone.
Right, we are pure.
And then, when we have thatunderstanding, we're more able
to see the things that we'refalling short of our mistakes
and kind of acknowledge them andmove forward from it.
The other thing that havingpeople that we give to what it
forces us or what it shouldforce us to do is to live up as
(30:50):
a role model.
Right, because when we realize,hold on a second, you know,
there are people that arelearning from me.
Right, there are people thatare kind of looking up to me,
got to behave in a way thatdoesn't let them down, so it
helps us keep our standards upas well.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I think my favorite thing about teachers is, like a
captain right, that a person whois of a certain personality
should not be teaching.
I don't know why, but I do knowwhy.
Maybe I shouldn't say it on apodcast children who perhaps
(31:27):
should not be in leadershiproles with children, and I often
think to myself you did notmake this up, this is something
that you know.
Unfortunately, you know hasbeen going on for a lot longer
than however long you're alive.
But again, it just brings meback to the point that, like
perky of this is not a newconcept.
(31:47):
Growth and development is not anew concept, and the way in
which we need to grow anddevelop as a community is
literally the exact same ascommunities of times past, and
so we're not unique and notchallenged, and I think that on
some level, that's reassuring,right.
It's reassuring to me that eventhough I think you know why,
haven't we learned this if it'swritten right here?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
But then we're human and you know humans are very
human, and so that's where wejust keep coming back to like
yeah, and I want to say that,firstly, leaders who lead from
their ego as opposed to from agood place, whether they're
leaders of children or adults,can be incredibly, incredibly
damaging.
And yes, I think one of thebeautiful things about
(32:31):
proclivics is it says it as itis right.
So it says someone who is likethat shouldn't be leading.
So it helps us, or people thathave experienced that, to kind
of actually turn around and sayhold on a second, this wasn't
right.
Right, which is a big part inthe healing of that is
recognizing this wasn't right.
It's not that this teacher wasgood teacher and I just messed
(32:53):
up and I couldn't think butactually some people shouldn't
be teaching right.
Yes, they may be, but if we canrecognize right that that's not
right, I think that that'shelpful as well right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So I think that that might be a reassuring sentiment
for people who are listening andmight be nodding their heads.
Ok, on a more positive note,how do we invest in
relationships?
So we said Perkevis, you know,has a deep focus on
relationships, and we gave someexamples about different types
of relationships and differentways that we can kind of like
learn how to have the bestoutcome from these types of
(33:28):
relationships.
But how do we invest inrelationships?
I would like to also likepreface this question by saying
that, on a lot of levels, ourlife today is much more
fragmented.
We're pulled in a lot moredifferent directions than many,
many generations past.
I mean, first of all, we haveno quiet.
As humans like, we'reconsistently connected to our
phones, we're accessible toeveryone all the time and maybe
(33:52):
that makes us quote, unquote andpeople who are listening you
don't see, but I'm making airquotes it makes us more
connected, but it really makesus a lot more disconnected.
So how do we in today's day andage learn from wisdom of
generations past on how we'resupposed to connect to the
people around us and invest inthese relationships, and how
important is it to invest in?
(34:12):
You know, all three equally,some more than others?
Does that fluctuate?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
So, firstly, I want to say that and Perko says it
straight out about it, rightwhat does it say?
It says what does that mean?
It means buy for yourself afriend.
What does it mean?
Like you go into a store andyou buy things no, you pay money
for a friend.
No, what it means is you haveto invest in a friendship, and I
think we need to hear thismessage nowadays, right, Because
(34:40):
we think I text someone, I sendthem a WhatsApp, I share with
them a funny meme.
That's not investing.
You actually have to invest,whether it's financially,
whether it's with our time,which is a lot harder for us.
It means you know what I'mactually going to do less so
that I can meet friends for awalk or meet a friend for a
(35:01):
coffee.
Right, Because it's important,it's so important to have those
relationships in our lives.
Pergamos is saying buy it right, Don't not like this.
You know, we understand thelanguage of buying right.
You have to give something upin order to get it right.
When we do it, we buy it allthe time because it's worth it.
It's the same thing here.
You have to invest in arelationship, you have to have
(35:24):
those conversations, you have tomeet.
You have to meet, you have totake time out, and even if it
means doing less, rightPre-Karvis is telling us right,
Go, do less and invest infriendships.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I feel like you're talking to me.
One of my Rosh Hashanahhaklotas was I would go out on
Sunday morning with a differentfriend.
I've done it twice, which isn'tvery reassuring, but I've done
it a lot more times with myhusband is my friend.
I've done it a lot more withhim this year, so you know we're
putting that into the samecategory.
What type of investment do youthink people should be making on
(36:03):
a practical level, meaning notjust oh, yes, it's important,
but where and how do we investin these relationships?
On a practical sense other thangoing out, I feel like the
Jewish way is we just go out toeat.
People who live in like largercommunities, like I do, like in
Brooklyn, it's like the easiestthing.
Hey, you want to meet forcoffee, want to meet for
breakfast?
Like that's the easy one.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And you know what.
That is a good thing.
I think it's a very individualanswer to it.
For a lot of us, it's aninvestment of time right answer
to it.
For a lot of us it's aninvestment of time, right.
It's not just texting someonehey, how are you.
It's saying let's get togetherright.
And there's an investment ofself as well.
Right, we have to be obviouslyto the right level, right, open,
(36:46):
vulnerable with each other tobuild real relationships and
with the right level and withthe right person as well.
But those are kind of the twothings that really come.
For some people it's one right,maybe it is, you know, but for
most of us, I think it's timeand self that we kind of have to
invest in the relationships.
And there's so much more we cantalk about.
Investment itself right,because you have to do it at the
(37:08):
right pace and with the rightperson.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And you know, so that the person doesn't get hurt.
So, essentially, what we'resaying is we need to prioritize
investing in those relationshipsand I think that if we talk
about the other types ofrelationships maybe there's a
more concentrated, you know,boundary type of relationship
with a mishpia or with a mentorI think it would be worthwhile
to spend a minute to talk aboutthe relationships with our
children or our students andreally talking about the
fragmentation that havingdevices around does bring.
(37:37):
So if you're in the classroomduring recess and it's your time
off, and you deserve time off,or if you're, you know,
unwinding after a long day atwork, but your kids are around
and you're scrolling on yourphone, and again you deserve to
have that space.
And I'm not saying you don't,but I do believe that a part of
this discussion also has to dowith the boundaries.
So it's not just prioritizingbut also really creating
(37:58):
boundaries in which we createthe spaces.
Not just prioritizing butcreating spaces for connection.
Because a kid who's in trouble,who might need a teacher, is
not coming over to a teacherwho's scrolling on their phone,
even if you're quote, unquotethere and available, that's not
really the message they'regiving.
And, for the same token, a kidwho you're half listening to is
not going to really open up toyou in a very real way, and
(38:21):
there was a time in my lifewhere I put my phone away from
five to seven.
I do not do that right now Ireally really should but I think
that there's value to havingspaces that are really
phone-free and device-free,where we are actually available
rather than just you know, quoteunquote available, meaning like
we're around and we're there,but are we really full-heartedly
(38:41):
listening?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
to.
And I want to also sharesomething that's maybe a little
bit easier, right, becauseyou're so right and we have the
reality of the fact that phonesare there and there's such a
distraction and it's so hard forus, for our kids, for our
students, to separate ourselvesfrom it.
We often kind of think of likerelationships as, like you know,
oh, it's the moments that wespend together versus like the
(39:04):
moments where we have to kind ofdiscipline them, right?
But the truth is, we also buildrelationships in how we treat
them, when those moments wherewe're teaching them, where we're
disciplining, et cetera.
Because if we could do that ina calm way, if we could do that
in a respectful way, if we canapologize when we mess up,
(39:24):
because we're all going to messup, we're all going to jump to
conclusions, we're all going tosay things that we regret,
whatever, but if we canapologize, those are very, very
powerful ways to buildrelationships as well.
Focus on where you can build therelationships right.
If you can put your phone awayfrom five to seven, that's
fantastic, amazing.
You put your way from five to515, that's also fantastic.
(39:44):
You're sitting at the suppertable, you know.
Just listen a little bit more.
Think of some great questionsto ask right, your kid does
something or your student doessomething that you're
disappointed with?
Phrase it in a way that showsthat you see that the good
person, that they are right, andall those are small little ways
(40:04):
that we can actually buildthose relationships, sometimes
very, very powerful, and the waywe behave to each other in this
small moments really are verypowerful in those relationships.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I love that you made it more attainable than this big
, huge, grand gesture.
I want to kind of pivot fromthe positivity and the
practicality just a little bit.
You don't get to like notparent a child who's being
really negative and you don'tget to leave a sibling who's you
know you're struggling withyour relationship with, or a
(40:34):
parent like you're.
You're going to have an ongoingrelationship with certain
people and those relationshipsmight not be the most positive
temporarily or for the long term, due to situations you just
can't control.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
You don't control someone else's mental health and
you don't control someoneelse's no-transcript, because
(41:16):
that's a separate discussionwhich let's talk about those
relationships that are negative.
And Pirca Obis is very outrightabout this and says don't think
for a moment that if you havenegative relationships in your
life that it's not going toimpact you, right, because just
like positive relationshipspropel us forward, negative
relationships have an impact aswell.
(41:38):
So I think that's, firstly,number one thing to understand
is that we can't just sort ofsay that you know, oh, whatever
this person is brings me down oris negative, like, but I'm okay
with that, I'm going to be fine.
And sometimes thoserelationships can be fun, right,
you have a friend who's fun butjust pulls you down, right, and
(42:00):
it can be harder to identify inthat sort of situation.
And sometimes those sort ofsituations, if you can get to
the place where you identify,actually this is having a
negative impact on me, it'seasier to separate yourself from
that relationship.
And I want to also say that it'ssuch an important topic and
it's such a big topic and it'ssuch a personal topic and it's
(42:20):
also a topic that doesn't haveeasy answers to, right, but we
do talk about cutting offrelationships, and what do I
mean by that is by sometimes youhave to put boundaries in place
, right, you have to put strongboundaries in place If someone
is having a negative impact onyou and it's really something
(42:41):
that you should be workingthrough with someone that you
can work through it with whetherit's a mentor who understands
these kinds of things, right,therapist or someone who can
help with this but you sometimeshave to put very strong
boundaries into place and sayyou know what, these are the
parameters of which I can beinvolved in this relationship
(43:02):
without it having a negativeimpact on me.
And sometimes a person has tocut themselves off from a
relationship for a certainamount of time or whatever,
because relationships have animpact on us, right?
So if it's a negativerelationship, we have to
recognize the impact that it'shaving on us and then sort of
try and figure out under whatparameters can I continue this
(43:24):
relationship so that it doesn'thave that negative impact on me
right.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I think this value to the boundaries and the
parameters that people do putout and I think that as a
society, we're, you know,starting to really embrace the
power of you know boundaries andaccepting the positivity and
really leaving the other ones.
I do want to say two pointshere.
The first one is, when I askedthe question, I was not talking
about little children.
I was talking about, you know,potentially adult children,
(43:50):
where they're already grown andself-sufficient, et cetera.
I want to end with a question,a personal question what is your
favorite, mishnah in PirkeiAvis, and why?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Oh, that's a really hard question.
What's my favorite?
Mishnah in Pirkei Aves?
Do I have to pick one?
Speaker 1 (44:16):
for the sake of this conversation.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yes, it's a really hard question for me to answer
and and I'll tell you why it'sreally hard because I think the
beauty of Pirkei Avis for me isthe vastness, right, and the
fact that it speaks to differentpeople at different places and
is so relatable to our lives.
(44:38):
And I think you know, at theend of the book, when I finished
writing my book and I was kindof trying to write, you know the
end chapter and sort of figureout, like what is it I want
people to get from this book?
And what I wrote and what Ireally want people to get is
take something that resonates toyou.
And that thing that resonatesto you may change as time comes
(45:00):
past.
Right, right now, I love themission that talks about
investing in friendships because, maybe because it's something
that I need to work on, right,you know it talks to where I'm
at in my life.
It talks to, I think, where alot of people are in our lives
is that, yes, you know I'll dothe job and I'll do whatever the
hell works and when I have time, I'll meet a friend for coffee,
right, or I'll meet someone toconnect with them.
(45:21):
It's like no right, make theseparation.
So maybe that's what'sresonating with me really right
now.
But the beauty of it is thatthere's so much in there and it
relates to different people atdifferent things and there's so
many things that you can pickout from it that really speaks
to our personal lives.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love that.
Gila, thank you so much for allthe words of wisdom, for the
ability to look at differentparts of our relationships in
different ways and to reallygain perspective about some of
our relationships in differentways and to really gain
perspective about some of thestatements in Perky Abbas.
If people want to reach out toyou or to follow you or to hear
more about this, where can theydo that?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
You can email me always gilaross at gmailcom,
it's an easy email to remember.
You can follow me on Instagrammy handle is itsgilaross.
And also I'd love to give ourlisteners a coupon for if they
would like to go ahead andpurchase my book, so I'll send
you the details and then you canput it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Absolutely A hundred percent.
So thank you so much, gila, fortaking the time to talk to us
today about relationships from aTARA perspective and
specifically from the Perkiav'sperspective.
This was a real treat, thankyou.
(46:45):
Thank you so much, rishki.
I am so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to
spend the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
at bodysoulscom Remember that'stwo S's.
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing, or if you
(47:07):
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
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