January 8, 2024 • 36 mins
Imagine a time when the world you know crumbles overnight, and you're thrust into an unknown future. This is the narrative of Chemda Jacobs, a Persian Jew and the driving force behind Torah Nursery in Cleveland, Ohia. Chemda's childhood under the Shah's tranquil reign in Iran, the shattering revolution of 1978, and how Rabbi Illulian, Rabbi Shea Hecht and Rabbi JJ Hecht of the NCFJE spearheaded the brave exodus of Jewish youth, offers a beacon of hope amidst the chaos.
As Chemda draws parallels between her past and the challenges Jews face in Western societies today, we're reminded of how belief in Hashem and the power of Torah are the only things constant in our lives. Chemda's perspective is not just a reflection of a historical truth, but also a reminder for women all over the world to access our Bitachon deep within ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi and welcome to our podcast, bodies and Souls
Conversations for the JewishWoman.
Good morning and welcome tothis episode of Bodies and Souls
.
We are continuing our series onhighlighting women who've gone
through different historicalmoments where women and families
and Jewish people have sufferedpersecution and have adjusted
(00:30):
and come out stronger.
And we are doing this in lightof the situation in Ertugsterel
right now and we feel likethere's a lot of lessons to be
learned as we watch the worldreally change in front of our
eyes in ways that are quitedramatic for people who haven't
been through this before.
Today, chem De Jacobs joins usall the way from Cleveland.
She is the director of TorahNursery and she is originally
(00:52):
from Iran, so she is a PersianJew, and she's going to share a
little bit about her story andthe lessons that we can learn.
So, before we start delvinginto that chapter of your life,
can you just tell us a littlebit about yourself, what you're
doing now, where your family isat in the current moment, and
then we'll go back from there.
Okay, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We're in Cleveland.
My husband and I are directorsof Torah Nursery.
In addition, my husband is alsoassistant rabbi in Tzema Salih
Hanviation and he gives ashiurim.
We also work on youth programsand women's programs.
We've been directors of nurseryfor about 30 years now.
(01:38):
We took it on and it was a verysmall group of six kids in our
living room, but throughout theyears it grew.
Eventually.
We ended up having threeclasses and then we actually
purchased a building in 2012.
As of now, we have nine classeswith close to 120 children.
(01:58):
Our staff here about 35 peoplein our staff and our enrollment
we're maxed out and the onlyreason we don't have more
children is just because of thespace.
We did renovate our building atone phase.
We're hoping to do a secondphase to be able to serve more
of the children in the community.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
That sounds just incredible.
Wow, very inspiring to see howyou've been able to grow the
daycare.
Can you tell us about yourchildhood?
I know you're not originallyfrom Cleveland.
I detect an accent as you'respeaking.
Tell us where you grew up andwhat it was like.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
In living in Iran.
I had a very nice childhood.
We lived under the Shah, whichwas the kingdom.
He was a very good friend ofthe Jews and Israel.
There was always communicationbetween him and Israel.
It was me and two othersiblings.
My parents were very lovingpeople.
We had a great childhood.
(02:54):
This all ended in 1978.
Fundamentalist Muslims wanted totake over and they started a
revolution.
First it was in theuniversities.
They were rioting.
It slowly grew to the streets,to the point there was one
Friday that we called BlackFriday, not because it was great
(03:17):
sales in the stores, butbecause in the morning the
Muslims went to the mosquedowntown and they came out and
started looting all the stores,putting all the stores on fire.
By the end of the day,everything was really black.
It's known as Black Friday.
This is where, at that point, Iwas 15 and I was going to high
(03:37):
school.
I used to walk to high schoolevery day.
Again, it was unrest in highschool itself also.
The last time I actually walkedto high school was when I was
walking home.
I was army all over the streetsand they were going around
arresting people.
I hid in a phone booth andwaited until they left.
Then I went home and after Ihad my pants I decided it's not
(03:59):
safe, I'm not going to schoolAgain.
Right around that time is when,very interestingly, there was a
sabbacher and he was around 18years old and I'm not sure 18,
20.
He is his origin from Iran, buthis parents had moved to Italy
many years ago.
They became very close to theShlokrim in Italy.
He wanted he had the stream ofcoming to Iran, maybe opening
(04:22):
Gimel-Khabar.
House Not sure he had written tothe Rebbe in 1977 and didn't
really get a direct answer.
They're in 1978 again, I'msorry, in 1978, that's when the
Rebbe Sola gave.
In December of 1978, that'swhen the Rebbe told him this is
your go to Iran.
He came there together withRabbi Shalim Berhacht, who is
(04:44):
the Rabbi, rabbi ofAsfar-de-Kandrishin in Queens,
has many Persian convenience.
They came to Iran open,thinking that maybe they were
going to start some sort ofschool at Khabar-Haz.
Right then is when the riotsand revolution was taking place
and sort of the role changedinstead of having to open in
(05:05):
Khabar-Haz as a school.
We can point that many peopleapproached them and asked them
if there was a way that theycould help the youth leave the
country, because at that timethere was also talk of the
unrest and parents were veryworried about their children and
especially the youth, and theywere afraid maybe at some point
especially the boys were draftedinto the army.
(05:29):
That's when they sort ofapproached Rabbi Lillian and
Rabbi Haacht.
They spoke to the Rebbe andRabbi Gidem-Methim Brachis and
they started the process of theprocess of in order to leave
Iran, you needed some sort ofvisa, a student visa or some
excuse why you're leaving thecountry.
So they got visas fromHadar-Hattara school for the
(05:53):
boys and basically from thegirls.
They also needed someone totake the financial burden on
their shoulders, and that wasthe only way they would be able
to leave.
And that's when Rabbi JJ Haacht, who is the head of NCFJ, came
out and he's the one whoactually took it on, which,
again this we're talking about$6,000 per student, and that's
(06:15):
how we're able to do it.
I was one of the first peopleamong the first group of
students who left Iran.
There was, I think there's- 10girls and 8 boys.
By me.
Again, when I left, theAmerican Embassy still was open.
I was able to get a visa rightaway and I was able to get and
within a few days I was readingand I left with this group.
(06:37):
Obviously it was very hard formy parents and for myself.
I was taught, I think it wasvery hard for the parents to let
their children go to unknown.
It was comforting to know thathe is a Jewish in Ireland taking
them on, but still it was forthe parents.
And that's when November of1978 is when we came to the
(07:01):
United States.
And after that, from thenthrough April, April, close to
1800 students came out of Iranthrough Habbat's efforts which,
again so at this time, theembassy, American embassy that
closed, you know the Shah leftIran and they had to do, you
know, maneuver many differentways to be able to accomplish
(07:22):
what they did.
And again this big charter goesto Rabbi JJ Houghton, nsfje, for
really taking the sound of theservice breakfast.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So that's very interesting and it's very
interesting in the globalpicture of what's happening.
I'm listening, you know, whenyou were talking, and you're
talking about fundamentalism andradicalization, starting in
universities and then going inthe streets.
And I see the echoes of thistoday, where we're talking about
the changes that are happeningin universities and the
influence that you know ishaving, and then the streets,
(07:54):
and I think that a lot of us arelistening to this and saying,
wow, there's a little bit of thesame coloring to events that
are happening today.
So, before we tie it intowhat's happening today, I wanna
go back further.
Actually, let's talk about theJewish community in Iran.
Where does that community startfrom?
What are its roots?
(08:15):
How long were Jews in Persia Imean, we're, you know leading up
towards Purim?
I think that the answer isfairly, fairly long, but let's
give a little bit of context tothe overall Jewish community in.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Iran.
So Jews in Iran go back overlike 2,400 years in the time of
like, right before the pornstory.
We know that the first place inwhich was destroyed by
Nebuchadnezzar and Abaz andthat's when they brought all the
Jewish people from the land ofIsrael into their territory,
(08:52):
which you know, iran at thattime, or Persia, was a big
territory and throughout allthis it's interesting even we
have, for example, shushan thatwe talked about in the porn is a
city called Hamidan in Iran.
There is a place where thecover of Esther Mordechai is and
many, many people go there tothe oven, even the non-Jews.
(09:16):
They do realize it's a holyplace and the main stories that
is in Iran and throughout allthe history of Persian Jews, it
seems that Persian, a lot oftimes they stuck together,
they're in ghettos, they thereis the same as like any other, I
guess, ex-agaulists to see.
You know, there were times thatJews were on top, they had very
(09:37):
prominent jobs in thegovernment and, unfortunately,
at times that there was a lot ofpersecution, there was a lot of
forced conversion, especiallywhen Islam took over and many
Jews had to convert, but it wasthe same.
The situation is that theMoranos in Spain that they did
in openly convert Islam butreally still kept their.
(09:57):
You know, you just got at homethis one throughout all the
story then, about to about like20th century, it was not the
Shah, but his father actuallytook over earlier, like in 1915,
around then he, you know, hetook over and he, in the
(10:18):
beginning of the 20th century,he was sort of good to the Jews
and he, you know, let them getthem more freedom, try to open
the ghettos.
But as World War II wasapproaching, it's very
interesting, there's a lot of ofa proof of his collaboration
with Hitler.
It's they were, like you know,from the Reich weapons and it
(10:38):
came to Iran.
The Germans built the firstrailroad tracks that are in Iran
and and it seems even like theywere the going like the warning
the Jews watch out, you know,once Germany it comes to Iran,
you know your end is near and Iguess we are very lucky.
And you know, thanks toSharmeshko protest, that Germany
(10:58):
was defeated in Russia, whichborders Iran.
So meaning, you know, if youknow, if Germany hadn't been
defeated who knows if I'll behere today to tell it but then,
after the you know, the Shah'sfather, you know, died and the
Shah took over him.
So, as I said, it was very goodto the Jews.
He realized the benefit thatyou know the Jews introduced
(11:23):
what they can do.
You know he, dr Gero's, openedup the Jews you know were able
to, they were able to get jobs,they were able to go to
universities.
There are, you know, persians,like at that time it only 2% of
the Persian population, but manyof them were doctors, many of
them, you know, were lawyers,like a much higher percentage
than the non-Jews.
(11:44):
That's a very basic history ofPersian Jews.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Can you give us a more detailed description of
your childhood, because itsounds like when, from the age
zero to 15, you grew up in aprosperous Jewish community.
The community, as you remember,was booming.
That's my assumption, but canyou fill that in Sure?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Again, as I said, I had a very happy childhood.
The community was great.
We, you know we were free topractice our religion when I
went to Jewish day school there,as I said, and also you know
the, you know the, the, theJewish students are able to
(12:25):
attend universities.
You know we have holidays.
We even had the representativeand the government of in the
Senate and I present the Jews.
I think that's about the end.
I'm not sure how big?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
give us an estimate?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Okay, fine, sure.
So Under the shop and there wasabout a hundred thousand Jews
that lived in Iran, most of themlived in Tehran, which is the
capital.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think that people oftentimes don't understand that
the Persian community, thecommunity in Iran, was quite
large.
Not only was it old, but it wasa large community.
I mean, even if you look inplaces like LA today, there's
huge Persian Jewish communities,yeah.
So I think that people don'tunderstand how large it is and
(13:14):
how small, how, how few.
I don't even know if there are.
I was about to look it up.
I don't know how many peopleare left in Iran.
How many do.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think the numbers, the numbers game here is a very,
very large, is a very bigcomponent of this many people
emigrated with, you know, since1978, and if you go into Israel
when it came to America, there'sa large community in New York,
there's a large community in in,in California and LA especially
.
And again I just want toreiterate the fact that about
(13:50):
spearheaded this whole Motion,that what they did with bringing
out the students, that was thenthe parents able to come out
later on, the fact that theyknew their children were safe
here and they were able to comeand join them, and that was
definitely big help was theJewish community separate from
the larger secular community?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
You mentioned ghettos .
Was there some interactiveinteraction between the Jewish
community and the non-Jewishcommunity?
Like did you know yourneighbors?
Did you have non-Jewishneighbors?
What was the connection?
Like, did you say, mentionedsomeone in, you know they?
There was a representative inthe local governments.
What was the Jewish role in thelarger Iranian community?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
as the time is about.
The show is about coming moreand more communication and
interaction between the Jewishcommunity and the In and the
non-Jewish community.
Definitely, as I said, the, theShah's father, and later shy
himself, really Opened theghettos and the Jews were able
to move out and they were very,all you know, when I was growing
(14:54):
up I had Jewish neighbors andthen and non-Jewish neighbors
and the interaction definitelywas much more you know, through
under the shot till up until1978 it's interesting even when
you know Hemenie took overopenly, they tell you that they
are tolerant of the Jewish.
You know the Jewish religion asa minority religion I ran.
(15:17):
But they're anti Zionism andanti.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Israel.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
This is, you know, just they're not all long, once
in a while, you see, in.
I know a few years ago inShiraz there was, you know, they
had arrested like 13 of the ina Jewish people, that eventually
they let them go.
But in general, you know they,you know, they say they're
openly, they are, you know theyare okay.
You just have to, you know, youhave to be very careful, I
guess how they talk, right inthe beginning, when the
(15:43):
Fundaments took over, there wasa man, elganian he was.
He was a very bigphilanthropist and he, you know,
he built me a lot of, even the.
You know, the stores andstorefronts at certain part of
town, like he, you know hebought them and people are
renting from him.
He also, obviously, beingflanty, was just to help Israel
(16:04):
and when, and they Arrested himand they, you know, they execute
him to heal them.
And that was also still a bigfear in, you know, in Jewish, in
the Persian Jews, of it I wasgonna be next but like I say
openly, they are, you know, theysay, you know the talent of the
Jews, you know we let thempractice the religion.
In 1994 I Went to Iran.
(16:27):
It was my brother's wedding andagain I was, you know, very
scared.
You know what to do.
She'll go.
You know I'm so 93.
We, you know, we asked a brahhafrom the rabbit and you know,
at that time was after Somestroke with Robin.
Now that you said and give abrahha, so we're nervous, brahha
.
That's how I went to Iran.
So you know what is it goodabout you do when you come in?
I, you know I told them what Iwent and I said is it okay, can
(16:51):
I speak in the shoulder?
You know, just, you know, saythe word.
And it's sure.
So I spoke and you know whatdid I?
You know I finished up that,you know the after I was done
speaking, that we hope thatwe're.
She has gone to come and we allwant to be able to, you know,
to go, you know, go, you know,to be able to edit.
You should be able to go to.
Israel.
And After someone came over tome says we don't talk like that
(17:12):
over here.
You know we have to be verycareful.
What you say you know and thenyou know you don't you know,
openly say that's okay, you knowwe, you know at some point
we're hoping that we're gonna go.
You know we're not gonna go toIsrael, so just you know.
I thought that's interesting,thank you.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's a form of anti-Semitism to cloak it in.
Oh, I don't mind Jews, it'sjust, you can't be biadistic.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
And even I don't know if you know, a few weeks ago
there was like a video clip thatwent around that it shows the
Jews of Iran, together with thehead, the rabbi, like walking in
streets and a kilo, like theyare marching against Israel.
I think that was something thatlike forced to do it.
They were afraid, you know,they needed to do it and they
(17:56):
felt like, you know, there's aprotective.
They just give all that.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Very hard to hear.
That Can you tell us, can wesort of focus on?
So you're 15 years old.
You are leaving behind thebeautiful life that you've
experienced.
You're leaving behind yourparents.
You're going to a faraway landwith unknown people.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what you are feeling and
also about your parents sendingyou away on your own?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I was always scared but I was, you know, happy that
I was lucky.
At least you know I was able to.
You know the last experiencethat I had as I said, lucky, you
know that, you know the armyand everything else.
I was happy that I was in thatbehind.
But you know it's scary comingto a new country and nobody.
But I will tell you that,coming I came.
I came to Cranhites.
At first I was a place inMahachana dormitory and then, as
(18:49):
more and more Jews were coming,they were trying to find
families too that they could.
You know that the students canboard by and many, many, many
Cranhites families.
They opened their homes.
I know some of them, like,pulled their children out of the
bedroom, put them in thebasement and gave the beds up.
So I actually moved with MiriamSturdlev, which I didn't know
(19:09):
how famous she was.
There.
I moved with another Persiangirl and we, really the
community, were amazing.
They really took care of us.
It was really, you know,bringing in new country and in
America, and you know, we knowhow things can go wrong, but
being in a place where we reallyfelt we were protected, we were
nurtured, it was really it wasamazing on my part, on my
(19:32):
parents.
It was very hard.
It was very hard for them andat that time there was no cell
phones and no emails.
You know, we had to go to thebank and get quarters and put
them in the you know in a publicphone and speak for three
minutes with them.
So for them it really was veryhard, you know it was hard.
Eventually, my parents did moveto United States in 1999,
(19:55):
together with my brother and asister-in-law.
They did move here for us.
So you know not, you know theywere able to ship some nachas
from their children,grandchildren, so so, you left
Iran through I know a lot ofIranian kids went either through
Italy or through Vienna.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I'm assuming that that was the route that you took
and then you came to New York.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Okay, so as I said in the beginning, since I was the
very first group that came atthat time the show was still
there, the American Embassy wasstill open.
Actually we came directly andwe just flew to London.
We stopped over and camestraight to America.
I believe maybe there was I'mnot even sure there was another
group after us, so did that.
Then the rest of the groups hadto go.
(20:41):
They had to go through eitherItaly or Vienna and some of them
ended up staying for quite awhile there till they, you know,
till all the details was ironedout and they were able to come.
So our group was a very luckyone that didn't have to go
actually to that and we camedirectly to the States.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And you came yourself , or you came with siblings,
like, did your mother presentyourself?
Just you?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, I was the youngest of the family at that
time.
I have two siblings, brotherand sister.
My sister was very married andshe lives now.
She lives in Lang Island inGreat Neck with her family.
She came also later and mybrother at that time now he was
older, he was working again he,you know it took him a while.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Okay, so can you talk to us a little bit about your
feelings about leavingeverything behind, how that felt
for you and how it felt to bein a place where you felt it was
safe to be openly Jewish and itwas safe to you know, just be
in the streets and not worryabout your identity and who you
are?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, I was, you know , being there and being scared
of, you know, being Jewish andnot being able to walk on
streets.
It was pretty scary.
And the fact that I was able tocome here and you know, to see
how people are so open, you knowyou have public manual
lightings and you have peopleeven to go down the street and
ask someone you know free to askthem if are you Jewish?
And you know those definitelywas.
(22:05):
You know, definitely very.
I was the luck of breath offresh air to be able to do that
here.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
As someone who left Iran under the wings of the
Chabad network, I know thattoday you are the Babbage and
you are Chabad.
I wonder how that impacted yourfamily, like this was not the
messiah that your parents werefollowing, or perhaps even your
siblings, and how did that workin the picture of where you came
(22:31):
from and your family of origin?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I think in the beginning it was maybe a little
hard for my parents, but oncethey came here and once they saw
us and once they see whatChabad is all about, I think
they're proud of it.
They're, really they're, youknow, the my parents and even my
siblings.
You know.
They're, you know, the proud ofus, the proud of our children
(22:54):
and in general, I don't think itis.
I don't think there is anyregrets about it.
I think they're happy that youknow the way that it worked out.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
What was your background, growing up in Tehran
?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Okay, so okay.
So my okay, my family wasconsidered a religious family,
you know, for Iran.
Basically, you know, keptChabas to an extent and kept
Kosher my father happens to be.
He used to dab in three times aday In his work.
He was the one who used to gotry to get Minion together.
(23:27):
So he definitely was veryconnected.
We have a picture of my fatherwe're talking about maybe 67
years ago, putting it to film onsomeone and he said he's doing.
Abad after he drew the album,knowing Abad so, and I went to
the Jewish day school in Iran.
(23:47):
So that's basically you know,that's how much it's very
interesting, I think when I waslike maybe seven or eight years
old, one day this man showed up,you know they told us he's a
rabbi from New York and he came.
He spoke in Hebrew in ourschool and he spoke about
lighting Chabas candles and hegave out this little candle
sticks to, you know, to everygirl in the school.
(24:10):
And that's when I startedlighting Chabas candles, you
know.
Again, talking about yeah, Iwas talking about seven or eight
years old, so that was anotherencounter with Abad, so much,
much earlier, you know, before,before I even knew what Abad was
(24:31):
all about and being and cominghere.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Very interesting.
So now let's bring aconversation to a post-October
7th world.
You're looking around at theworld next to around you.
Maybe you felt the world wasdifferent.
What are parallels that you'reseeing today that perhaps you
saw growing up, I guess, as youmentioned what's.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know what's, what's taking place in the
universities, what's takingplace on the streets, what sort
of echoes you know to say youknow, like what's happened in
Iran and I just obviously thereis a sense of fear in our hearts
and I'm hoping that you knowAmerica does end up, you know
where Iran end up, but bottomline being who, I am now knowing
(25:16):
that you know, that there is.
You know there is a purpose forevery here and there is a reason
.
There's a goal that we are, youknow we are hoping to get to.
And the same way as you know,like the women in the shrine
right and you know what theywent through, even though they
were going through a Holocaust,with the fact that they knew
(25:37):
that there was a goal, there's aplace that they need eventually
going to go, that's what keptthem going.
You know they prepared theirtambourines and they were ready
and once the war actually didhappen, you see that they were
the ones who were the happiestbecause you know they weren't
who.
You know they suffered so much,but all along they had that
trust that you know thateventually there's all this
madness is going to end.
(25:58):
So I guess you know, havingthat, having that focus, that
goal, does make it a littleeasier, you know, to go through
what we're going through rightnow compared to what I went
through then.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So you're saying that you do see parallels, but you
feel like we've seen this storybefore and we've been okay and
we know the ending.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Exactly exactly.
There is, if I may say, there isa very one of my favorite
stories of Ramendo Fotovas, whowas sent, you know, because of
his counter, you know governmentactivities, you know, in the
fact that you know he wasteaching Tara he was doing, he
(26:41):
was sent to a labor camp inSiberia and he says there's many
different kinds of people werethere and many talented people
were there and one of the peoplethat was in the camp was a guy
who used to used to acrobats,used to as a tightrope walker,
(27:01):
and one night, you know, afterthey had worked, they said come
on, let's go show us.
And they found the rope and theytied it from one end of the
room to the other end of theroom and this guy and they put
high up, 30 feet off the groundand this guy goes on the rope
and he walks from one side ofthe rope to the other side and
then and then he jumps, turnsaround and he walks back all the
way to the other and he jumpsdown.
(27:23):
Everybody claps and Ramendobeing who he was, that he knew
that you know, from everythingthat you see in life, you know,
you know there's something thatyou can learn from.
Comes over to just tell me howcould you do this?
How are you going to walk fromone end of the rope and then
turn around and come back.
This is because I don't look tothe right, I don't look to the
left, I don't focus on my goal.
(27:43):
My goal is to go to the end andthat's all I focus on.
That's how I'm able to stay putand that's how I'm able to get
to the end.
And the hardest time is thatmoment when I have to turn
around and come back to be ableto go back to the other side.
But for a moment you're not.
You're, your eyes are not onthe goal, but you know so in a
(28:06):
man's sense.
You know this is our, you knowso.
This is our life, this is ourgoal, our goal.
You know our goal is.
You know there's a purposewhere we have to put us here.
There is, there is a reason whyall these things are happening.
But we know what we, you knowgoals are moving in and we just
have to keep our eye on the, onthe goal and we just shouldn't
look at them.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
That's a favorite story.
Thank you for sharing that.
I want to.
I think I'm a little bitfascinated or hung up by the way
that you described theparallelisms between the
uprising in Iran and what'shappening now, because, yes,
it's true Can uh, Canadian andAmerican or Western universities
(28:46):
have become extremely unsafefor students, but it still feels
like we live in a democracy andin a million years I can't
imagine an uprising the way thatthere was in Iran.
Did you also feel that way?
Did you and your family andcommunity feel so settled and so
safe that you never, everimagined that it would be unsafe
(29:08):
, 100% that extent?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yes, 100% yes, of course I mean again like I said,
you know the Jews had very highranking jobs in the government
and, and you know, and the Shahwas, I mean, he really it's very
he was amazing for the country.
He did so much good because he,like, modernized the country so
much and so you know so manyways that we did it and other
(29:31):
times, who would you know eventhink of you know, overthrowing
him?
Definitely, we definitely feltsafe and we felt it was the
paradise.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And then it happened overnight, Really overnight I
mean again, there was.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
You know, there was, um, you know, there were always
fundamentals in Iran, as the manKhomeini himself had been sent
into exile.
He was lived in France at thattime.
There were times one time in1953, there was a small uprising
, but you know it whatever thegovernment took care of it it
faded it's.
(30:08):
I'm just saying it was amazingreally.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I think this is not not to be negative, but we're
going to be negative for asecond.
I think this is a common liketheme.
When we feel settled in ourgullus, we feel happy, we feel
like we have an identity.
We're American Jews and we'rePersian Jews and we're you know,
we're we're the administratorsin our hospitals and we're you
(30:33):
know all these things, and wefeel so comfortable and then
we're like oh my gosh, ithappened overnight but really it
didn't.
There were signs and there weresymptoms, and they were you know
, and had we been awake and hadwe been noticing, we would have
noticed that this is a patternthat repeats itself.
I think that the primarydifference today is that the
(30:54):
world is much more global, andso what we're seeing in one part
of the world is not just in onepart of the world, it's all
over.
And I can tell you that,professionally.
I see people who I love andpeople who I respected and
people who were friends I mean,we have WhatsApp groups together
and they're so woke and they'retalking against the Israeli
(31:14):
government and they're like oh,no, it's not you.
And I'm like, really, how couldit not be me?
I was in Israel when October7th happened.
I saw the rockets.
I had 90 seconds to get my kidsto say, from how is it not me?
Oh, but you're not Zionists.
Really, I like the separationand the delusion in people's
minds is absolutely like it'sheartbreaking and it's
(31:38):
ridiculous and it's just mindblowing and the fact that you
think you could separate Zionismand Judaism.
Ok, so we could talk aboutpost-modern Zionism and we spoke
to Esther Krakarsky about that.
We have a whole episode which,if our listeners want, they can
go back and listen, but the factthat we talk about Zion and
Ushalayim every single Tfila andwe dive in towards Ushalayim,
(32:02):
you cannot separate, you cannot,and it's just another cloak and
another way that we starttalking about antisemitism and
we start talking aboutanti-Jewish sentiment and you
really can't separate those.
So, as I'm listening to yourstory, handa, I'm listening to a
story that is not your story.
It's the story of the Jewishpeople and the story of the
(32:25):
Jewish people who want tobelieve in the inherent goodness
and kindness of the peoplearound them, which,
unfortunately, is not alwaysthere.
And I wonder what the lessonsto us today, what is our job and
what is our role and how shouldwe feel about the story that's
(32:46):
happening actively around ustoday?
And I wonder how you feel aboutthat, based on your previous
experience going throughsomething that was similar to
this.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I guess the main lesson or thought that comes to
mind is the reaction.
As you said, that is somethingthat has happened over and over
again, and we do.
I guess another difference isthat we now we have a rabbit,
that who's told us that.
We are again going back to whatI said before, that we have a
(33:20):
goal, we are going towards thegoal and the fact that what is,
I guess, what really means tomind is what is our job?
What do we need to be doing now?
How is the way?
What could we do to affect oursurroundings, to be able to
prepare the world and to get tothe goal and to be able to sort
(33:48):
of and we know, once we get togo, all this negativity is going
to fall to the wayside.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
And we have to, as every person in their own.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Everyone has something that they're the
stronger and it's, you know, ifyou know all of this and all of
you, whatever you know, our mainjob has to be, really have to
be, a light into nations.
We have to do our part, try toaffect our surroundings and the
way, you know, by whateverthings, whatever acts that we
could do, whatever that we canteach, and this is the way that
(34:17):
we'll be able to, I guess,prepare the world, for you know,
for you know, for the coming ofthe shachmish should be, you
know, right away, and I guessthis you know, this is the way
you know that I feel all these,all these things are happening
around.
Obviously, we have to bevigilant and we have to be
(34:39):
careful and we have to protectourselves, all those, true,
physically, but at the same timewe know, by a Jew his physical
and spiritual needs areintertwined.
So you know, we know that whenwe improve the world in a
spiritual way, that also affectsour physical surroundings and
definitely each one of us.
I guess we have to see, youknow, what is it that we can do
to bring that light into theworld and to bring the closer to
(35:05):
shachmish?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Amin, what a beautiful message to end off
with Very true words, especiallycoming from someone who's been
there, done that.
It's almost like you'veexperienced our worst nightmares
coming true and you've come outstronger and with more bitak
and more amuna, and thank youfor uplifting us with your words
(35:27):
.
All right, thank you for givingthat from Jim T.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Thank you for listening.
We hope you enjoyed and grew.
Original music of Shamil'sNigan provided by Hazan David K.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Tak.
We look forward to your input,feedback and suggestions.
We also have partnershipopportunities available.
Please email info at bodiessoulscom.
Again info at bodies soulscomwith two S's.
Thank you.
Hi and welcome to our podcast, bodies and Souls
Conversations for the JewishWoman.
Good morning and welcome tothis episode of Bodies and Souls
.
We are continuing our series onhighlighting women who've gone
through different historicalmoments where women and families
and Jewish people have sufferedpersecution and have adjusted
(00:30):
and come out stronger.
And we are doing this in lightof the situation in Ertugsterel
right now and we feel likethere's a lot of lessons to be
learned as we watch the worldreally change in front of our
eyes in ways that are quitedramatic for people who haven't
been through this before.
Today, chem De Jacobs joins usall the way from Cleveland.
She is the director of TorahNursery and she is originally
(00:52):
from Iran, so she is a PersianJew, and she's going to share a
little bit about her story andthe lessons that we can learn.
So, before we start delvinginto that chapter of your life,
can you just tell us a littlebit about yourself, what you're
doing now, where your family isat in the current moment, and
then we'll go back from there.
Okay, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We're in Cleveland.
My husband and I are directorsof Torah Nursery.
In addition, my husband is alsoassistant rabbi in Tzema Salih
Hanviation and he gives ashiurim.
We also work on youth programsand women's programs.
We've been directors of nurseryfor about 30 years now.
(01:38):
We took it on and it was a verysmall group of six kids in our
living room, but throughout theyears it grew.
Eventually.
We ended up having threeclasses and then we actually
purchased a building in 2012.
As of now, we have nine classeswith close to 120 children.
(01:58):
Our staff here about 35 peoplein our staff and our enrollment
we're maxed out and the onlyreason we don't have more
children is just because of thespace.
We did renovate our building atone phase.
We're hoping to do a secondphase to be able to serve more
of the children in the community.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
That sounds just incredible.
Wow, very inspiring to see howyou've been able to grow the
daycare.
Can you tell us about yourchildhood?
I know you're not originallyfrom Cleveland.
I detect an accent as you'respeaking.
Tell us where you grew up andwhat it was like.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
In living in Iran.
I had a very nice childhood.
We lived under the Shah, whichwas the kingdom.
He was a very good friend ofthe Jews and Israel.
There was always communicationbetween him and Israel.
It was me and two othersiblings.
My parents were very lovingpeople.
We had a great childhood.
(02:54):
This all ended in 1978.
Fundamentalist Muslims wanted totake over and they started a
revolution.
First it was in theuniversities.
They were rioting.
It slowly grew to the streets,to the point there was one
Friday that we called BlackFriday, not because it was great
(03:17):
sales in the stores, butbecause in the morning the
Muslims went to the mosquedowntown and they came out and
started looting all the stores,putting all the stores on fire.
By the end of the day,everything was really black.
It's known as Black Friday.
This is where, at that point, Iwas 15 and I was going to high
(03:37):
school.
I used to walk to high schoolevery day.
Again, it was unrest in highschool itself also.
The last time I actually walkedto high school was when I was
walking home.
I was army all over the streetsand they were going around
arresting people.
I hid in a phone booth andwaited until they left.
Then I went home and after Ihad my pants I decided it's not
(03:59):
safe, I'm not going to schoolAgain.
Right around that time is when,very interestingly, there was a
sabbacher and he was around 18years old and I'm not sure 18,
20.
He is his origin from Iran, buthis parents had moved to Italy
many years ago.
They became very close to theShlokrim in Italy.
He wanted he had the stream ofcoming to Iran, maybe opening
(04:22):
Gimel-Khabar.
House Not sure he had written tothe Rebbe in 1977 and didn't
really get a direct answer.
They're in 1978 again, I'msorry, in 1978, that's when the
Rebbe Sola gave.
In December of 1978, that'swhen the Rebbe told him this is
your go to Iran.
He came there together withRabbi Shalim Berhacht, who is
(04:44):
the Rabbi, rabbi ofAsfar-de-Kandrishin in Queens,
has many Persian convenience.
They came to Iran open,thinking that maybe they were
going to start some sort ofschool at Khabar-Haz.
Right then is when the riotsand revolution was taking place
and sort of the role changedinstead of having to open in
(05:05):
Khabar-Haz as a school.
We can point that many peopleapproached them and asked them
if there was a way that theycould help the youth leave the
country, because at that timethere was also talk of the
unrest and parents were veryworried about their children and
especially the youth, and theywere afraid maybe at some point
especially the boys were draftedinto the army.
(05:29):
That's when they sort ofapproached Rabbi Lillian and
Rabbi Haacht.
They spoke to the Rebbe andRabbi Gidem-Methim Brachis and
they started the process of theprocess of in order to leave
Iran, you needed some sort ofvisa, a student visa or some
excuse why you're leaving thecountry.
So they got visas fromHadar-Hattara school for the
(05:53):
boys and basically from thegirls.
They also needed someone totake the financial burden on
their shoulders, and that wasthe only way they would be able
to leave.
And that's when Rabbi JJ Haacht, who is the head of NCFJ, came
out and he's the one whoactually took it on, which,
again this we're talking about$6,000 per student, and that's
(06:15):
how we're able to do it.
I was one of the first peopleamong the first group of
students who left Iran.
There was, I think there's- 10girls and 8 boys.
By me.
Again, when I left, theAmerican Embassy still was open.
I was able to get a visa rightaway and I was able to get and
within a few days I was readingand I left with this group.
(06:37):
Obviously it was very hard formy parents and for myself.
I was taught, I think it wasvery hard for the parents to let
their children go to unknown.
It was comforting to know thathe is a Jewish in Ireland taking
them on, but still it was forthe parents.
And that's when November of1978 is when we came to the
(07:01):
United States.
And after that, from thenthrough April, April, close to
1800 students came out of Iranthrough Habbat's efforts which,
again so at this time, theembassy, American embassy that
closed, you know the Shah leftIran and they had to do, you
know, maneuver many differentways to be able to accomplish
(07:22):
what they did.
And again this big charter goesto Rabbi JJ Houghton, nsfje, for
really taking the sound of theservice breakfast.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So that's very interesting and it's very
interesting in the globalpicture of what's happening.
I'm listening, you know, whenyou were talking, and you're
talking about fundamentalism andradicalization, starting in
universities and then going inthe streets.
And I see the echoes of thistoday, where we're talking about
the changes that are happeningin universities and the
influence that you know ishaving, and then the streets,
(07:54):
and I think that a lot of us arelistening to this and saying,
wow, there's a little bit of thesame coloring to events that
are happening today.
So, before we tie it intowhat's happening today, I wanna
go back further.
Actually, let's talk about theJewish community in Iran.
Where does that community startfrom?
What are its roots?
(08:15):
How long were Jews in Persia Imean, we're, you know leading up
towards Purim?
I think that the answer isfairly, fairly long, but let's
give a little bit of context tothe overall Jewish community in.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Iran.
So Jews in Iran go back overlike 2,400 years in the time of
like, right before the pornstory.
We know that the first place inwhich was destroyed by
Nebuchadnezzar and Abaz andthat's when they brought all the
Jewish people from the land ofIsrael into their territory,
(08:52):
which you know, iran at thattime, or Persia, was a big
territory and throughout allthis it's interesting even we
have, for example, shushan thatwe talked about in the porn is a
city called Hamidan in Iran.
There is a place where thecover of Esther Mordechai is and
many, many people go there tothe oven, even the non-Jews.
(09:16):
They do realize it's a holyplace and the main stories that
is in Iran and throughout allthe history of Persian Jews, it
seems that Persian, a lot oftimes they stuck together,
they're in ghettos, they thereis the same as like any other, I
guess, ex-agaulists to see.
You know, there were times thatJews were on top, they had very
(09:37):
prominent jobs in thegovernment and, unfortunately,
at times that there was a lot ofpersecution, there was a lot of
forced conversion, especiallywhen Islam took over and many
Jews had to convert, but it wasthe same.
The situation is that theMoranos in Spain that they did
in openly convert Islam butreally still kept their.
(09:57):
You know, you just got at homethis one throughout all the
story then, about to about like20th century, it was not the
Shah, but his father actuallytook over earlier, like in 1915,
around then he, you know, hetook over and he, in the
(10:18):
beginning of the 20th century,he was sort of good to the Jews
and he, you know, let them getthem more freedom, try to open
the ghettos.
But as World War II wasapproaching, it's very
interesting, there's a lot of ofa proof of his collaboration
with Hitler.
It's they were, like you know,from the Reich weapons and it
(10:38):
came to Iran.
The Germans built the firstrailroad tracks that are in Iran
and and it seems even like theywere the going like the warning
the Jews watch out, you know,once Germany it comes to Iran,
you know your end is near and Iguess we are very lucky.
And you know, thanks toSharmeshko protest, that Germany
(10:58):
was defeated in Russia, whichborders Iran.
So meaning, you know, if youknow, if Germany hadn't been
defeated who knows if I'll behere today to tell it but then,
after the you know, the Shah'sfather, you know, died and the
Shah took over him.
So, as I said, it was very goodto the Jews.
He realized the benefit thatyou know the Jews introduced
(11:23):
what they can do.
You know he, dr Gero's, openedup the Jews you know were able
to, they were able to get jobs,they were able to go to
universities.
There are, you know, persians,like at that time it only 2% of
the Persian population, but manyof them were doctors, many of
them, you know, were lawyers,like a much higher percentage
than the non-Jews.
(11:44):
That's a very basic history ofPersian Jews.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Can you give us a more detailed description of
your childhood, because itsounds like when, from the age
zero to 15, you grew up in aprosperous Jewish community.
The community, as you remember,was booming.
That's my assumption, but canyou fill that in Sure?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Again, as I said, I had a very happy childhood.
The community was great.
We, you know we were free topractice our religion when I
went to Jewish day school there,as I said, and also you know
the, you know the, the, theJewish students are able to
(12:25):
attend universities.
You know we have holidays.
We even had the representativeand the government of in the
Senate and I present the Jews.
I think that's about the end.
I'm not sure how big?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
give us an estimate?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Okay, fine, sure.
So Under the shop and there wasabout a hundred thousand Jews
that lived in Iran, most of themlived in Tehran, which is the
capital.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think that people oftentimes don't understand that
the Persian community, thecommunity in Iran, was quite
large.
Not only was it old, but it wasa large community.
I mean, even if you look inplaces like LA today, there's
huge Persian Jewish communities,yeah.
So I think that people don'tunderstand how large it is and
(13:14):
how small, how, how few.
I don't even know if there are.
I was about to look it up.
I don't know how many peopleare left in Iran.
How many do.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think the numbers, the numbers game here is a very,
very large, is a very bigcomponent of this many people
emigrated with, you know, since1978, and if you go into Israel
when it came to America, there'sa large community in New York,
there's a large community in in,in California and LA especially
.
And again I just want toreiterate the fact that about
(13:50):
spearheaded this whole Motion,that what they did with bringing
out the students, that was thenthe parents able to come out
later on, the fact that theyknew their children were safe
here and they were able to comeand join them, and that was
definitely big help was theJewish community separate from
the larger secular community?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
You mentioned ghettos .
Was there some interactiveinteraction between the Jewish
community and the non-Jewishcommunity?
Like did you know yourneighbors?
Did you have non-Jewishneighbors?
What was the connection?
Like, did you say, mentionedsomeone in, you know they?
There was a representative inthe local governments.
What was the Jewish role in thelarger Iranian community?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
as the time is about.
The show is about coming moreand more communication and
interaction between the Jewishcommunity and the In and the
non-Jewish community.
Definitely, as I said, the, theShah's father, and later shy
himself, really Opened theghettos and the Jews were able
to move out and they were very,all you know, when I was growing
(14:54):
up I had Jewish neighbors andthen and non-Jewish neighbors
and the interaction definitelywas much more you know, through
under the shot till up until1978 it's interesting even when
you know Hemenie took overopenly, they tell you that they
are tolerant of the Jewish.
You know the Jewish religion asa minority religion I ran.
(15:17):
But they're anti Zionism andanti.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Israel.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
This is, you know, just they're not all long, once
in a while, you see, in.
I know a few years ago inShiraz there was, you know, they
had arrested like 13 of the ina Jewish people, that eventually
they let them go.
But in general, you know they,you know, they say they're
openly, they are, you know theyare okay.
You just have to, you know, youhave to be very careful, I
guess how they talk, right inthe beginning, when the
(15:43):
Fundaments took over, there wasa man, elganian he was.
He was a very bigphilanthropist and he, you know,
he built me a lot of, even the.
You know, the stores andstorefronts at certain part of
town, like he, you know hebought them and people are
renting from him.
He also, obviously, beingflanty, was just to help Israel
(16:04):
and when, and they Arrested himand they, you know, they execute
him to heal them.
And that was also still a bigfear in, you know, in Jewish, in
the Persian Jews, of it I wasgonna be next but like I say
openly, they are, you know, theysay, you know the talent of the
Jews, you know we let thempractice the religion.
In 1994 I Went to Iran.
(16:27):
It was my brother's wedding andagain I was, you know, very
scared.
You know what to do.
She'll go.
You know I'm so 93.
We, you know, we asked a brahhafrom the rabbit and you know,
at that time was after Somestroke with Robin.
Now that you said and give abrahha, so we're nervous, brahha
.
That's how I went to Iran.
So you know what is it goodabout you do when you come in?
I, you know I told them what Iwent and I said is it okay, can
(16:51):
I speak in the shoulder?
You know, just, you know, saythe word.
And it's sure.
So I spoke and you know whatdid I?
You know I finished up that,you know the after I was done
speaking, that we hope thatwe're.
She has gone to come and we allwant to be able to, you know,
to go, you know, go, you know,to be able to edit.
You should be able to go to.
Israel.
And After someone came over tome says we don't talk like that
(17:12):
over here.
You know we have to be verycareful.
What you say you know and thenyou know you don't you know,
openly say that's okay, you knowwe, you know at some point
we're hoping that we're gonna go.
You know we're not gonna go toIsrael, so just you know.
I thought that's interesting,thank you.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's a form of anti-Semitism to cloak it in.
Oh, I don't mind Jews, it'sjust, you can't be biadistic.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
And even I don't know if you know, a few weeks ago
there was like a video clip thatwent around that it shows the
Jews of Iran, together with thehead, the rabbi, like walking in
streets and a kilo, like theyare marching against Israel.
I think that was something thatlike forced to do it.
They were afraid, you know,they needed to do it and they
(17:56):
felt like, you know, there's aprotective.
They just give all that.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Very hard to hear.
That Can you tell us, can wesort of focus on?
So you're 15 years old.
You are leaving behind thebeautiful life that you've
experienced.
You're leaving behind yourparents.
You're going to a faraway landwith unknown people.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what you are feeling and
also about your parents sendingyou away on your own?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I was always scared but I was, you know, happy that
I was lucky.
At least you know I was able to.
You know the last experiencethat I had as I said, lucky, you
know that, you know the armyand everything else.
I was happy that I was in thatbehind.
But you know it's scary comingto a new country and nobody.
But I will tell you that,coming I came.
I came to Cranhites.
At first I was a place inMahachana dormitory and then, as
(18:49):
more and more Jews were coming,they were trying to find
families too that they could.
You know that the students canboard by and many, many, many
Cranhites families.
They opened their homes.
I know some of them, like,pulled their children out of the
bedroom, put them in thebasement and gave the beds up.
So I actually moved with MiriamSturdlev, which I didn't know
(19:09):
how famous she was.
There.
I moved with another Persiangirl and we, really the
community, were amazing.
They really took care of us.
It was really, you know,bringing in new country and in
America, and you know, we knowhow things can go wrong, but
being in a place where we reallyfelt we were protected, we were
nurtured, it was really it wasamazing on my part, on my
(19:32):
parents.
It was very hard.
It was very hard for them andat that time there was no cell
phones and no emails.
You know, we had to go to thebank and get quarters and put
them in the you know in a publicphone and speak for three
minutes with them.
So for them it really was veryhard, you know it was hard.
Eventually, my parents did moveto United States in 1999,
(19:55):
together with my brother and asister-in-law.
They did move here for us.
So you know not, you know theywere able to ship some nachas
from their children,grandchildren, so so, you left
Iran through I know a lot ofIranian kids went either through
Italy or through Vienna.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I'm assuming that that was the route that you took
and then you came to New York.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Okay, so as I said in the beginning, since I was the
very first group that came atthat time the show was still
there, the American Embassy wasstill open.
Actually we came directly andwe just flew to London.
We stopped over and camestraight to America.
I believe maybe there was I'mnot even sure there was another
group after us, so did that.
Then the rest of the groups hadto go.
(20:41):
They had to go through eitherItaly or Vienna and some of them
ended up staying for quite awhile there till they, you know,
till all the details was ironedout and they were able to come.
So our group was a very luckyone that didn't have to go
actually to that and we camedirectly to the States.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And you came yourself , or you came with siblings,
like, did your mother presentyourself?
Just you?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, I was the youngest of the family at that
time.
I have two siblings, brotherand sister.
My sister was very married andshe lives now.
She lives in Lang Island inGreat Neck with her family.
She came also later and mybrother at that time now he was
older, he was working again he,you know it took him a while.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Okay, so can you talk to us a little bit about your
feelings about leavingeverything behind, how that felt
for you and how it felt to bein a place where you felt it was
safe to be openly Jewish and itwas safe to you know, just be
in the streets and not worryabout your identity and who you
are?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, I was, you know , being there and being scared
of, you know, being Jewish andnot being able to walk on
streets.
It was pretty scary.
And the fact that I was able tocome here and you know, to see
how people are so open, you knowyou have public manual
lightings and you have peopleeven to go down the street and
ask someone you know free to askthem if are you Jewish?
And you know those definitelywas.
(22:05):
You know, definitely very.
I was the luck of breath offresh air to be able to do that
here.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
As someone who left Iran under the wings of the
Chabad network, I know thattoday you are the Babbage and
you are Chabad.
I wonder how that impacted yourfamily, like this was not the
messiah that your parents werefollowing, or perhaps even your
siblings, and how did that workin the picture of where you came
(22:31):
from and your family of origin?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I think in the beginning it was maybe a little
hard for my parents, but oncethey came here and once they saw
us and once they see whatChabad is all about, I think
they're proud of it.
They're, really they're, youknow, the my parents and even my
siblings.
You know.
They're, you know, the proud ofus, the proud of our children
(22:54):
and in general, I don't think itis.
I don't think there is anyregrets about it.
I think they're happy that youknow the way that it worked out.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
What was your background, growing up in Tehran
?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Okay, so okay.
So my okay, my family wasconsidered a religious family,
you know, for Iran.
Basically, you know, keptChabas to an extent and kept
Kosher my father happens to be.
He used to dab in three times aday In his work.
He was the one who used to gotry to get Minion together.
(23:27):
So he definitely was veryconnected.
We have a picture of my fatherwe're talking about maybe 67
years ago, putting it to film onsomeone and he said he's doing.
Abad after he drew the album,knowing Abad so, and I went to
the Jewish day school in Iran.
(23:47):
So that's basically you know,that's how much it's very
interesting, I think when I waslike maybe seven or eight years
old, one day this man showed up,you know they told us he's a
rabbi from New York and he came.
He spoke in Hebrew in ourschool and he spoke about
lighting Chabas candles and hegave out this little candle
sticks to, you know, to everygirl in the school.
(24:10):
And that's when I startedlighting Chabas candles, you
know.
Again, talking about yeah, Iwas talking about seven or eight
years old, so that was anotherencounter with Abad, so much,
much earlier, you know, before,before I even knew what Abad was
(24:31):
all about and being and cominghere.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Very interesting.
So now let's bring aconversation to a post-October
7th world.
You're looking around at theworld next to around you.
Maybe you felt the world wasdifferent.
What are parallels that you'reseeing today that perhaps you
saw growing up, I guess, as youmentioned what's.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know what's, what's taking place in the
universities, what's takingplace on the streets, what sort
of echoes you know to say youknow, like what's happened in
Iran and I just obviously thereis a sense of fear in our hearts
and I'm hoping that you knowAmerica does end up, you know
where Iran end up, but bottomline being who, I am now knowing
(25:16):
that you know, that there is.
You know there is a purpose forevery here and there is a reason
.
There's a goal that we are, youknow we are hoping to get to.
And the same way as you know,like the women in the shrine
right and you know what theywent through, even though they
were going through a Holocaust,with the fact that they knew
(25:37):
that there was a goal, there's aplace that they need eventually
going to go, that's what keptthem going.
You know they prepared theirtambourines and they were ready
and once the war actually didhappen, you see that they were
the ones who were the happiestbecause you know they weren't
who.
You know they suffered so much,but all along they had that
trust that you know thateventually there's all this
madness is going to end.
(25:58):
So I guess you know, havingthat, having that focus, that
goal, does make it a littleeasier, you know, to go through
what we're going through rightnow compared to what I went
through then.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So you're saying that you do see parallels, but you
feel like we've seen this storybefore and we've been okay and
we know the ending.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Exactly exactly.
There is, if I may say, there isa very one of my favorite
stories of Ramendo Fotovas, whowas sent, you know, because of
his counter, you know governmentactivities, you know, in the
fact that you know he wasteaching Tara he was doing, he
(26:41):
was sent to a labor camp inSiberia and he says there's many
different kinds of people werethere and many talented people
were there and one of the peoplethat was in the camp was a guy
who used to used to acrobats,used to as a tightrope walker,
(27:01):
and one night, you know, afterthey had worked, they said come
on, let's go show us.
And they found the rope and theytied it from one end of the
room to the other end of theroom and this guy and they put
high up, 30 feet off the groundand this guy goes on the rope
and he walks from one side ofthe rope to the other side and
then and then he jumps, turnsaround and he walks back all the
way to the other and he jumpsdown.
(27:23):
Everybody claps and Ramendobeing who he was, that he knew
that you know, from everythingthat you see in life, you know,
you know there's something thatyou can learn from.
Comes over to just tell me howcould you do this?
How are you going to walk fromone end of the rope and then
turn around and come back.
This is because I don't look tothe right, I don't look to the
left, I don't focus on my goal.
(27:43):
My goal is to go to the end andthat's all I focus on.
That's how I'm able to stay putand that's how I'm able to get
to the end.
And the hardest time is thatmoment when I have to turn
around and come back to be ableto go back to the other side.
But for a moment you're not.
You're, your eyes are not onthe goal, but you know so in a
(28:06):
man's sense.
You know this is our, you knowso.
This is our life, this is ourgoal, our goal.
You know our goal is.
You know there's a purposewhere we have to put us here.
There is, there is a reason whyall these things are happening.
But we know what we, you knowgoals are moving in and we just
have to keep our eye on the, onthe goal and we just shouldn't
look at them.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
That's a favorite story.
Thank you for sharing that.
I want to.
I think I'm a little bitfascinated or hung up by the way
that you described theparallelisms between the
uprising in Iran and what'shappening now, because, yes,
it's true Can uh, Canadian andAmerican or Western universities
(28:46):
have become extremely unsafefor students, but it still feels
like we live in a democracy andin a million years I can't
imagine an uprising the way thatthere was in Iran.
Did you also feel that way?
Did you and your family andcommunity feel so settled and so
safe that you never, everimagined that it would be unsafe
(29:08):
, 100% that extent?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yes, 100% yes, of course I mean again like I said,
you know the Jews had very highranking jobs in the government
and, and you know, and the Shahwas, I mean, he really it's very
he was amazing for the country.
He did so much good because he,like, modernized the country so
much and so you know so manyways that we did it and other
(29:31):
times, who would you know eventhink of you know, overthrowing
him?
Definitely, we definitely feltsafe and we felt it was the
paradise.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And then it happened overnight, Really overnight I
mean again, there was.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
You know, there was, um, you know, there were always
fundamentals in Iran, as the manKhomeini himself had been sent
into exile.
He was lived in France at thattime.
There were times one time in1953, there was a small uprising
, but you know it whatever thegovernment took care of it it
faded it's.
(30:08):
I'm just saying it was amazingreally.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I think this is not not to be negative, but we're
going to be negative for asecond.
I think this is a common liketheme.
When we feel settled in ourgullus, we feel happy, we feel
like we have an identity.
We're American Jews and we'rePersian Jews and we're you know,
we're we're the administratorsin our hospitals and we're you
(30:33):
know all these things, and wefeel so comfortable and then
we're like oh my gosh, ithappened overnight but really it
didn't.
There were signs and there weresymptoms, and they were you know
, and had we been awake and hadwe been noticing, we would have
noticed that this is a patternthat repeats itself.
I think that the primarydifference today is that the
(30:54):
world is much more global, andso what we're seeing in one part
of the world is not just in onepart of the world, it's all
over.
And I can tell you that,professionally.
I see people who I love andpeople who I respected and
people who were friends I mean,we have WhatsApp groups together
and they're so woke and they'retalking against the Israeli
(31:14):
government and they're like oh,no, it's not you.
And I'm like, really, how couldit not be me?
I was in Israel when October7th happened.
I saw the rockets.
I had 90 seconds to get my kidsto say, from how is it not me?
Oh, but you're not Zionists.
Really, I like the separationand the delusion in people's
minds is absolutely like it'sheartbreaking and it's
(31:38):
ridiculous and it's just mindblowing and the fact that you
think you could separate Zionismand Judaism.
Ok, so we could talk aboutpost-modern Zionism and we spoke
to Esther Krakarsky about that.
We have a whole episode which,if our listeners want, they can
go back and listen, but the factthat we talk about Zion and
Ushalayim every single Tfila andwe dive in towards Ushalayim,
(32:02):
you cannot separate, you cannot,and it's just another cloak and
another way that we starttalking about antisemitism and
we start talking aboutanti-Jewish sentiment and you
really can't separate those.
So, as I'm listening to yourstory, handa, I'm listening to a
story that is not your story.
It's the story of the Jewishpeople and the story of the
(32:25):
Jewish people who want tobelieve in the inherent goodness
and kindness of the peoplearound them, which,
unfortunately, is not alwaysthere.
And I wonder what the lessonsto us today, what is our job and
what is our role and how shouldwe feel about the story that's
(32:46):
happening actively around ustoday?
And I wonder how you feel aboutthat, based on your previous
experience going throughsomething that was similar to
this.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I guess the main lesson or thought that comes to
mind is the reaction.
As you said, that is somethingthat has happened over and over
again, and we do.
I guess another difference isthat we now we have a rabbit,
that who's told us that.
We are again going back to whatI said before, that we have a
(33:20):
goal, we are going towards thegoal and the fact that what is,
I guess, what really means tomind is what is our job?
What do we need to be doing now?
How is the way?
What could we do to affect oursurroundings, to be able to
prepare the world and to get tothe goal and to be able to sort
(33:48):
of and we know, once we get togo, all this negativity is going
to fall to the wayside.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
And we have to, as every person in their own.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Everyone has something that they're the
stronger and it's, you know, ifyou know all of this and all of
you, whatever you know, our mainjob has to be, really have to
be, a light into nations.
We have to do our part, try toaffect our surroundings and the
way, you know, by whateverthings, whatever acts that we
could do, whatever that we canteach, and this is the way that
(34:17):
we'll be able to, I guess,prepare the world, for you know,
for you know, for the coming ofthe shachmish should be, you
know, right away, and I guessthis you know, this is the way
you know that I feel all these,all these things are happening
around.
Obviously, we have to bevigilant and we have to be
(34:39):
careful and we have to protectourselves, all those, true,
physically, but at the same timewe know, by a Jew his physical
and spiritual needs areintertwined.
So you know, we know that whenwe improve the world in a
spiritual way, that also affectsour physical surroundings and
definitely each one of us.
I guess we have to see, youknow, what is it that we can do
to bring that light into theworld and to bring the closer to
(35:05):
shachmish?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Amin, what a beautiful message to end off
with Very true words, especiallycoming from someone who's been
there, done that.
It's almost like you'veexperienced our worst nightmares
coming true and you've come outstronger and with more bitak
and more amuna, and thank youfor uplifting us with your words
(35:27):
.
All right, thank you for givingthat from Jim T.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Thank you for listening.
We hope you enjoyed and grew.
Original music of Shamil'sNigan provided by Hazan David K.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Tak.
We look forward to your input,feedback and suggestions.
We also have partnershipopportunities available.
Please email info at bodiessoulscom.
Again info at bodies soulscomwith two S's.
Thank you.
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