May 13, 2024 • 60 mins
When Hadassah Zirkind, founder of A Drop of Light, shared her story with us, the conversation was charged with a raw, transformative energy that only true vulnerability unleashes. We journeyed together through her experiences with self-harm, suicide, and the relentless grip of mental illness—unveiling her unspoken battles with anxiety and depression, magnified by the trials of prenatal and postpartum changes. Hadassah's courage in seeking help and her resolve to foster candid conversations on mental health are paving a path of hope for caregivers, community leaders, and anyone touched by similar struggles.
From understanding suicidal ideation to strengthening community connections, this episode stands as a beacon of support, an invitation to dialogue, and a testament to the strength that emerges when one dares to share their darkest moments in search of a drop of light.
For more information and resources, visit preventfrumsuicide.org.
To sponsor an episode of Bodies & Souls, email us at
info@bodiessouls.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good morning and welcome to Bodies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
Today we have a wonderful guestwith us, but this episode does
come with a trigger warning.
If you or someone you know isthinking of hurting themselves,
committing suicide or has otherthoughts of self-harm, this
episode should be listened towith discretion.
So, without further ado, I'mgoing to introduce our topic.
(00:28):
Today.
We are actually talking about apersonal story of suicide, but
this is a story that really hasa lot of nuggets of wisdom for
all of us.
So if you are in a capacity oftaking care of other people,
whether that's as a teacher, asa counselor of other people,
whether that's as a teacher, asa counselor, as administration
in any facility, or you are acommunity leader in any sort of
(00:53):
way, this is a very importantepisode for you to listen to.
There are tools, there aretricks, there are resources.
There's so much wisdom in thisepisode and so many resources.
You will hear a personal storyof someone's personal journey,
but you will also learn so muchalong the way.
So I cannot wait to introduceyou to Hadassah.
Good morning and welcome toBodies and Souls.
(01:15):
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
Today, we have the privilegeand honor of having Hadassah
Zirkin with us.
Hadassah is a young Lubavitchermother who is passionate about
starting the conversationsurrounding all parts of mental
illness.
She is the founder of a neworganization called A Drop of
Light.
This is an organization aimedat raising awareness of and
(01:37):
preventing from suicides.
Hadassah also volunteers as acrisis counselor for the crisis
text line and is MHFA certified,which I don't even know what
that means, but sounds very cool.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
All the letters.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So, hadathah, before we start talking about our topic
today, maybe just tell us alittle bit about yourself, where
you grew up, where you'reliving, just so people you know
feel like we have context forthe conversation that we're
having.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
Mhfa is Mental Health First Aid.
Just to clarify what thatstands for, it's a pretty much a
course giving basic knowledgeon mental health.
Highly recommend it toeverybody.
So I grew up in Los Angelespretty typical, from house,
typical, yeah, really typicallife.
(02:23):
Grew up in a from house in LosAngeles, got married and now I
live in Iowa and I have a fewkids Kanai, nahara and yeah,
that's pretty much me.
I think the weird things changeis what people don't see is
that I struggled with mentalhealth challenges for don't see
(02:48):
is that I struggled with mentalhealth challenges for most of my
life.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Thank you, first of all, for being here, because I
know I was just telling youbefore we started that this is a
very vulnerable podcast, and Iwant to just clarify, because
there's sometimes like a littlebit of a difference between
being vulnerable and just, youknow, almost like exhibitionism,
right?
So this is not.
Hadassah doesn't have the needto talk about this for herself.
You know, this is not somethingthat's serving hadassah's
purpose.
(03:11):
This is serving a largerpurpose and I think that we need
to start the conversation from.
This isn't just for clicks,right?
This is for us to learn andgrow and become better as a
community.
So, hadassah, when you talkabout, you know, struggling with
your mental health.
At what age did you startstruggling with mental health?
What does that look like?
(03:32):
Is there a diagnosis?
What was the progression ofthings for you?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Okay.
So first of all I realized wedidn't say this and probably
should.
There will be talk aboutself-harm and suicide.
So if those are not topics thatyou are comfortable listening
to, that's not safe for you tolisten to.
Do not listen to this episode.
That being said, in hindsight Icould probably diagnose myself
(03:58):
with anxiety from very youngsecond grade, third grade, like
really young but it's notsomething that I recognized at
that time.
The first time where I think Irecognized that there was
something going on, I wasprobably in eighth grade, so
let's say, 14 years old, andthat was the first time that I
(04:20):
self-harmed.
So at that point, once Istarted self-harming, I realized
that obviously there'ssomething very wrong.
But still there was no officialdiagnosis.
I never went.
I went to therapists but it wasalways more my mother pushing
me to go get help, not because Iwanted to get help, which means
(04:42):
help was not gotten because itneeds to be your own work and
things pretty much continuedlike that.
Where there was something wrong.
I had anger issues, which is aoffshoot of depression very
often and just self harming anddepressed for probably till I
(05:02):
got pregnant with my first.
Once I got pregnant with myfirst, I developed prenatal
depression, so everything justreally got very bad.
And then, once I gave birth,the postpartum period was also,
you know, morphed intopostpartum depression and at
that point my husband was likeokay, something's going on, you
(05:23):
need to get help.
I also became pregnant with mysecond when my oldest was only
five months, so they're veryclose in age.
So at that point it was formyself as well, recognizing oh,
there's something going on andif I'm going to be having
another child, I must get thehelp I need in order to be a
(05:44):
functioning mother.
So I went to a therapist, reallydidn't stick it out, and I was
never honest about how bad I wasdoing, which is very hard.
It's very hard to be vulnerableand open and honest about how
you're doing.
So I was seeing a therapist butI never disclosed that I
self-harmed or you know thatthose were things that I
struggled with, that I dealtwith.
(06:05):
So it kind of stayed at like,kind of receiving help, not
really receiving help, knowingthere's something wrong, my
husband being very aware thatthere's something wrong, but
never properly getting real,real help.
And then, after I had my thirdchild, who also my kids are
(06:26):
within two and a half years, sovery close in age.
Three kids and somethinghappened where there was a
situation where my childrencould have been in danger not to
go into details but it was very, very not good situation and at
that point it became okay.
You need real help.
(06:47):
Like going to therapists on andoff is not enough, and that's
when I started taking medication.
So that's about four years agoI started taking medication.
Medication isn't an answer,it's not a cure If you're not
doing the work and medicationonly helps so much.
Obviously, if you needmedication, take it, but it's in
(07:09):
addition to doing internal work.
So about a year after that, Iwas suicidal for the first time.
I was threatening to killmyself.
I started acting on that plan.
It was a very long night.
We spent the night with thepolice force and the mobile
crisis unit and, yeah, it was asituation and it's pretty much
(07:33):
since then.
The last three years have justbeen a cycle of doing okay and
then slowly getting worse andhitting the point of suicidal
again.
I've been suicidal twice sincethat point.
We're in the middle of workingout, figuring out exactly what
it is that is causing that.
I have this constant cycle ofdoing okay and then not.
(07:55):
So we are aware it is a work inprogress, baruch Hashem, right
now I am stable, I am okay, butthis is pretty much my life
right now therapy and medicationand the knowledge that I have
depression and besides for justdepression, pmdd, which is PMS
on steroids is how I like todescribe it.
(08:17):
You know, people think of PMSwhen they're on their period or
around their period.
They are moody, they're notfeeling their best all of that
Someone who has PMDD.
It's a lot deeper than that andit could go as far as psychosis
and suicide, which is whathappens to me.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Thank you for sharing that so clearly.
I think the next questionpeople are going to ask is well,
there must have been a trauma,like was there something that
caused you to be this way.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Were you molested?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Did you watch someone die?
Did something happen thatcaused you to be this way?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right?
So that's a very hard questionfor me to answer.
Actually, that's what I'mcurrently in therapy trying to
see if there's some sort ofsuppressed trauma.
It's actually my current workbecause there are little things
which I could say I blame it on,but nothing that stands out as
what really should be triggeringthis.
(09:14):
Like there was no realmolestation.
There was a situation but itdid not involve any touching or
anything, and it's not somethingthat I think is to go into, but
like there was something whichmaybe plays a role, but I don't
know how much it plays a role.
The first time I self-harmedthat year, I grew up in a very
(09:36):
small apartment.
We grew up in a two bedroomapartment and I'm one of six
kids, kanai Nahara.
So that year my only sister,who's eight years younger than
me, joined my school.
So I was walking to school withher every day and I think for
me there was something verydifficult in that that I had had
that separation of like at homeI have no space and at school
(09:59):
I'm my own person and then thosetwo things merged because I was
with her and that's kind of, inmy head, always been oh, that
must have been the trigger forwhy you felt so badly that year.
But I don't really know.
And the first time Iself-harmed which is also the
thing is, people think, oh, youmust have heard about
(10:19):
self-harming, you must havewanted to try it out, whatever
it is, and that wasn't the caseI self-harmed.
I had emotions that I needed torelease and I didn't know how
to release them.
And I did an action whichincluded inflicting pain on
myself, and realized, wow, thatreally was a release.
And then it spiraled from there, meaning I didn't self-harm for
(10:43):
the point of self-harming, butit then grew from there and very
often, once self-harm is inplay, it can go further to
suicide.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Not always just because you know someone who is
self-harming, you do not need tobe worried that suicide is
going to come next, but it cancome next that's very
interesting because you're veryyoung and when we talk about
self-harm, we're usually talkingabout like teenagers and like
older, like I think that that'sthe thought that comes to
(11:16):
people's mind and not a child asyoung as you are.
I wonder if the adults aroundyou, like you said your mother
took you to help.
So I'm assuming, like you'reliving in a small space, like
how easy would it have been foryou to hide it from her?
But even the things that you'redescribing like this was your
trauma that you were.
You know you were walking youryounger sibling to school and
you were merging the home and Imean I don't think anyone like
(11:39):
as a parent, like we would belike that's just normal, we
would give our you know, tellour kid, you're the older
sibling you've got to do.
What you got to do, like it'snot something that we would even
think that that would be thecause of anything larger.
And I wonder, like, what causedyour mother to even notice that
something was wrong?
Like, what did she do at thatpoint?
(11:59):
And do you think that as aparent, like looking back and
someone who is now trained,would you have done anything
differently?
And I apologize if yourmother's listening, because
obviously she did the best thatshe can and I don't know her,
but I'm sure she did the bestthat she was able to do.
So this is not a, you know, adiscussion about let's go back
in time and change things,because as a parent, we don't do
(12:19):
the best with the tools that wehave.
But I wonder if you, lookingback, like as mothers who are
listening, and maybe you knowwe're noticing something, what
could be done differently.
So tell us what happened andhow she noticed and was it a
teacher at school, was it yourmother?
And then what you think inretrospect could have been done
(12:39):
differently.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So I do want to preface what.
I do not blame either of myparents for anything, like I.
Really, I genuinely do believethat they did the best they
could.
The space we were living in wasnot because they wanted us to
be living in this space.
They they were doing what theycould with what they had and
with the knowledge that they had, and I'm very grateful for
(13:02):
everything that they've everdone for me.
That being said, my mother Ithink most of the time sent me
for help because of my anger.
I got very angry to the pointthat I was borderline abusive to
my siblings, like I was reallynot in a healthy place and I
think that's more of where itwas.
I don't know and I don't thinkthat they ever put together the
(13:26):
fact that there is depressioninvolved here.
I think it was more just angerissues.
And again, as a teenager, ifI'm not willing to talk to the
therapist which I never was theycouldn't do any more.
I didn't give them anything towork with and I never did as
much as yes, living in a smallspace, I had no privacy.
(13:47):
My mother did not know.
I self-harmed until a few weeksago a few months ago actually,
when I was going public with myorganization.
That's when I told my parentshow bad my mental health has
been.
They did not know it.
I did manage to hide it, whichis common and also very
unfortunate, because you do needthe support.
(14:10):
And as a parent, what I wouldsay to do different in hindsight
?
I think just really be aware ofmood changes and obviously as a
teenager that's really hardbecause we're talking a 14 year
old who you know I'm goingthrough puberty, like obviously
I'm hormonal and my moods areconstantly fluctuating and the
anger, like that's normal forthat age.
(14:33):
But just be aware, maybe didsomething happen?
Are the mood swings gettingmore extreme?
Just any shift in anything?
Are they getting more?
And try and have thatconversation then, like just be
aware of the minor changes, butmore than that.
Unfortunately I don't know howmuch more there is that could
(14:56):
have been done at that point doyou think that your teachers and
schools noticed this or thiswas just parents?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
because I'll tell you example like I just came back
from Montreal and I travelextensively to talk to really
it's preteens, not teens as muchright now, and I'm doing a lot
of puberty talk and I alwayshave a slide where I talk about
mental health and, yeah, I'mseeing these kids for 45 minutes
an hour, depending on theschool, like really not a whole
(15:24):
lot of time.
But I always feel like it'simportant to insert like, if
you're feeling these type offeelings, go to a trusted adult.
Let them know what you'refeeling.
They might not notice it, likekids don't always know that
their parents are really busyand fragmented, and like running
18 tabs at a time.
Let them know what's happeningbecause they have tools that
they can help you.
Let them know what's happeningbecause they have tools that
they can help you.
(15:44):
I wonder if a teacher noticed,or if this was a conversation
that was had at any point inyour schooling, or if we should
be having more of theseconversations, and would it have
helped you if someone hadspoken like that?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So teachers never noticed or said anything.
In high school I was definitelyso.
(16:19):
I was this really good who justI sat in the back corner of the
classroom.
That was my seat every year,the back corner, very quiet,
like.
I had teachers who joked thatif student getting the good
grades not making trouble, allof that.
There were times when I triedreaching out to teachers in my
own way and I guess I never hadthe courage to be open would be
more like I didn't write alittle halacha question on the
test.
You know, can you help mefigure such and such out and
(16:43):
hoping to use that as a way toget a one-on-one conversation
with a teacher?
That I liked, but I never wasbrave enough to go and speak
openly to any teachers and thatbeing the case that most
teenagers are not going to go toan adult, most teenagers are
not brave enough to have thoseconversations there does need to
(17:06):
be systems in place that thesetopics are discussed, because
you mentioned that people thinkof self-harm, suicide.
As you know, teenagers,unfortunately it's getting
younger and younger.
I had someone reach out to meyesterday actually that her
seven-year-old is threateningsuicide.
Someone reach out to meyesterday actually that her
(17:26):
seven-year-old is threateningsuicide, like that's really,
really young, that's aseven-year-old.
And if teachers have some sortI know we have.
My husband works in a yeshivahere and one of the things that
they're trying to do is to makesure that every single anhala
member has a group of bahrimthat they will develop, that
kesher with and check up on, andthat's a way that could be done
(17:49):
.
Obviously, a bigger school,smaller school, like there are
methods and not methods, but itis important for teachers to try
and notice not just the kidwho's struggling academically,
struggling socially, but thatkid who is flying under the
radar, academically, strugglingsocially, but that kid who is
flying under the radar.
They might be the one cryingfor help the loudest and you
don't notice that becausethey're, you know, checking all
(18:11):
the boxes and they just needsomeone to say, hey, are you
okay?
Cause I do think that ifsomeone had actually come over
to me and express genuine care,I would have opened up, because
I was looking for that.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Very interesting.
I think the kid who makes theloudest noise gets the most
attention.
And you were fine, right,academically you were fine.
So you were fine and that'sjust how it was.
And even if somebody you knowwould have raised the bell, you
were also already in therapy.
Like, what would the schoolhave asked your mother to do?
Send you to therapy, but youwere already in therapy.
(18:46):
So, with those subtle signs, Idon't even know that the
situation you know would haveplayed out differently had
someone come in the classroomand talk to you about this.
So let's talk about the sciencebehind this.
So what causes certain peopleto be more prone to anxiety,
depression, pmdd which, by theway, I use the exact same
(19:07):
explanation?
When I tell you know womenabout this, I'm like it's just
PMS on steroids.
You know suicide or you knoweven self-harm.
What would cause someone,without noticeable trauma, to be
more prone to doing this?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
There's actually very little knowledge in this field.
Yet Mental health in general isan emerging field.
Think back 100 years ago, orreally less than 100 years ago.
People were being givenelectric shocks as, oh, this is
going to be the cure forwhatever it is.
So there are those who say thatit can be genetic, but there is
(19:45):
no necessary proof that it isgenetic.
Trauma is usually the mainreason for such extreme things.
That is usually it.
It can be actually a headinjury like a physical injury
can cause this stuff.
A head injury like actually aphysical injury can cause this
(20:08):
stuff.
And then all the just theoutside factors.
It doesn't need to be a bigtrauma.
It could just be how your brainreacts to all the little pieces
around you can cause thesebehaviors and emotions to come
out.
People self harm for a varietyof reasons and when you hear
that someone is self-harming, Ithink the most important thing
(20:29):
to do is to find out why.
As a crisis counselor, wheneversomebody says you know they're
struggling with self-harm, myfirst question always is people
self-harm for a variety ofreasons.
What is it that you get out ofself-harm?
The main reasons peopleself-harm are to have a physical
manifestation of an emotionalpain.
(20:50):
You know they're feeling reallysad about something, but they
don't know they want to actuallylike, really feel it.
So they'll harm themselves as away to physically feel it.
It could be as a punishment youknow I'm feeling guilty for A,
b and C and therefore I'mharming myself.
(21:32):
No-transcript.
Do it because they don't feellovable and they don't want to
be able to be loved.
So if my body is scarred andmessed up, then really nobody's
going to love me and it's justgoing to solidify it.
It could be because they hatethemselves.
I'm not loved and I want totherefore punish my body, and it
(21:55):
could also just be.
And this is what it is.
For me is when I self-harm,there is a release of emotion
and of energy and it's it's.
It's a coping mechanism ofsorts.
It just is a release for me.
And no, that's not a healthymethod and please don't go and
try it.
But at the same time, it's thekind of thing where your typical
(22:16):
person is not going to feel arelease from it.
Your brain has to have thesemisfires in order to feel like
that.
So those are the differentreasons people could self-harm
and they really.
There is no guaranteed scienceof oh, this is what it's from
why you're doing it.
It's really very unknown stillexactly what the reasons behind
(22:41):
it is.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Right.
So it's very varied and wedon't necessarily know why every
single person is.
Is there a genetic component,like if somebody's parents
struggled with their mentalhealth, they'll struggle with
their mental health?
Is there an epigeneticcomponent to this of like there
was intergenerational trauma andthen we're more prone to this?
Are there those type ofcomponents to this?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
as well.
There are definitely theoriesthat say that it's not set in
stone, though, meaning you dosee, there is a lot of anxiety
in the orthodox jewish communityactually, which is thought of
as just yeah, generategenerational trauma.
We've always been persecuted andwe always have to flee from one
(23:26):
place to the next, and there'sthat.
If you grew up in a home wherepeople struggled with mental
health, so there is a chancethat you will as well, but also
just because of the environmentof your home, and that's where
it's not clear.
Is it that there's actuallyyour brain has the same chemical
(23:48):
imbalances, or is it that yougrew up in an anxiety filled
house and therefore youdeveloped anxiety as well
because that was the environmentyou were always in?
So it is difficult, like I knowpeople who there are more than
one person in the family who'staking medication, but they're
(24:11):
taking different classes ofmedication, which means that the
chemical imbalance that's beingaddressed are different.
So are you going to say thatthe fact that both of those
siblings have depression thatit's genetic?
You can't really say that,being that they're in two
different classes of medication,so it is hard.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
there definitely is room to say that it's genetic,
but it's not set in stone soit's nature versus nurture and
we don't necessarily know andsome of it is just your brain,
almost like exactly just doingwhat it does because it does
Exactly.
Earlier in this conversationyou mentioned a few times, like
I wasn't getting real help.
(24:52):
What is real help?
And my hands are on quotes,right, so like quote unquote.
What does real help mean?
Because you know, if you'resending a kid to a therapist,
you're kind of assuming thatthey're going to get what they
need out of that.
But you said that you weren'tgetting real help.
So what would real help looklike?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think, in order for it to be real help, the person
themselves needs to want to behelped.
Now, as a parent, that's hard,because you can't force your
child to want to be helped andyou could see that they need the
help and therefore send them tothe therapist.
And if they don't want to behelped or they don't recognize
that there's anything wrong withthem, then they won't be able
(25:33):
to get the help they need.
And that's what it was in mycase, is I never went because I
chose to go and because Ithought there was something
wrong with me and because Iwanted to go, it was always no,
hadassah, you are going to thistherapist to lead shows and
therefore there was even thatspace of me to say, well, I
(25:54):
don't like this therapist.
Could we try someone else, whichI think maybe, as a parent, if
you're going to be sending achild to get professional help,
to make sure that they are awarethat if you don't click with
this person, that's okay.
A therapist is like a shidduchyou really need to fit, but you
do need to be getting help andsupport.
(26:16):
So let's find someone who youdo connect with.
And, as a parent, I think it'sjust important, like I said,
that your child is aware of that, that they could have veto
power on this specificprofessional and you could see
someone else.
But it really has to come fromthe person.
If someone does not want tochange, change is not possible.
(26:36):
You know, you can lead a horseto water, you can't make him
drink.
So you could go send your childfrom one therapist to the next
if they don't recognize thatthere is something that needs to
be done or they're just seeingit as.
Mommy and Tati are punishing meand forcing me to go then
nothing's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's such an important thing to give the
child a little bit of theempowerment and the ownership of
the process, so that they canreally benefit from the process
in a real way.
And I think that's hard becausefor some parents there doesn't
feel like there might be anoption, especially if there's a
financial component, meaninglike this is who our insurance
is covering, this is who we canafford.
Like we don't have thoseoptions, so that might be a
really big struggle for someparents.
(27:19):
You mentioned earlier that yourhusband is a Rebbe in the
Yeshiva, so that means he'ssomeone who is in a community
leadership position.
Rebbe in the yeshiva, so thatmeans he's someone who is in a
community leadership position.
Yes, so what's interesting tome is I think that barak hashem
is wonderful.
Our community has come so farwhen we relate to subjects like
mental health, but I don't thinkit's come far enough to be like
(27:40):
okay, suicide and that's likesuicide is still off the table,
um, so we can talk about ouranxiety.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
we can talk about postpartum depression, so that's
fine, but self-harm, suicide,oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
So your husband's not working for himself in business
, he's in an active communityrole and I wonder, like, how
does the community stigma which,although we've come and we've
made so many great strides, I dothink it's still very much
present in those two particularareas?
So how did he feel about whenyou were like, ok, I got to talk
about this publicly and I needto start an organization and I'm
(28:14):
going to be verbal about it,and I know, I know that you have
shared anonymously in the pastand you're really not doing that
anymore more.
So I wonder how he feels aboutthat and how you feel about it.
And have you thought about like, will the community?
by the time my kids are, youknow, in Shidduchim and I know
that's so- cliche but I know asa mother, that's still going to
(28:36):
be a conversation you're havingwith yourself.
Like is it going to affect them?
Like we care about our kids, wewant the best for them, and is
my need to make a difference inthe community going to affect my
husband, my children or myself?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Right, so really good question.
First of all, you mentionedthat I've shared anonymously.
I have to say really thank youto you and to Sarah Lowenthal.
You guys were the first placewhere I shared my story, when I
reached out to you and I said,hey, are you going to talk about
self-harm and suicide?
And your response was well, ifyou tell us what to write,
because we don't know this, thenwe'll publish it.
(29:09):
And I published my journeyanonymously at that point.
But you guys were my steppingboard to being where I am now.
So me being as public as I amright now is actually a very
interesting story the first timethat I tried killing myself
actually a very interestingstory the first time that I
(29:30):
tried killing myself.
So the next day my husband,obviously as a Lubavitcher,
chassid.
He wrote a letter to the Rebbe.
He sent a letter to the Ayaland this is something you know,
I know not every all thelisteners here are Lubavitchers.
So this is something peoplestill do, even though the Rebbe
has passed away.
They will send a letter, sendit to the aisle where the rabbi
is buried and just asking thatthe rabbi up in shabayim
(29:52):
intercede on our behalf and helpthat, help bench us intercede
that everything be okay.
And one of the things a lot ofpeople have the custom of doing
is they'll open a volume calledthe igris, which is letters that
the rabbi wrote to peopleduring their during his lifetime
, and they'll open it up.
And they'll open a volumecalled the Igress, which is
letters that the rabbi wrote topeople during his lifetime, and
they'll open it up and they'lljust read a few letters that
(30:12):
catch their eyes randomly to seeif there's something in there
that could give them chizuk,could give them bracha, could
just help them in that situation.
And it's fascinating.
But we do know that tzaddikimhave more power after their
neshama leaves their limitedbody than it did while it was
stuck here in a body on earth.
(30:33):
And there are so many stories ofpeople getting really really,
really clear answers and that'swhat happened in this case.
My husband wrote in asking thatI should have a bracha for a
foshulema, that everythingshould be okay, that I should be
okay, all of that, and heopened up a volume of the Igris
and the letter he opened up tothe Rebbe was writing to an
(30:56):
individual who was obviouslydealing with a medical challenge
and in this letter the Rebbemade three main points.
Point number one was that thisperson should make sure to take
medication.
Point number two was that thisperson should make sure to take
medication.
Point number two was that itwas going to be a very long
journey.
This person was not going toget better quickly.
It's going to be full of upsand downs, it was going to be
long and hard.
And the third point that theRebbe made was that this person
(31:18):
should use their struggles tohelp others.
So my husband did not tell methis answer the next day, like
he didn't go and be likehadassah it's gonna be long and
hard and use your challenge.
No, no, no, he's smarter thanthat.
He did not do that, but it didthen become.
That, I think, was actuallyonce I wrote the article for
(31:40):
bodies and souls.
He told me he's like oh yeah,the rabbbe wrote in that answer
that you should use yourchallenge to help others.
And slowly, slowly I actually afew years ago we had a Bikr
Chaylim event here in Postville.
I'm one of the people who runsthe Bikr Chaylim and we decided
we wanted to talk about mentalhealth and I stood up in front
(32:02):
of the whole Postville and saidhere's my story.
Here's what I've struggled with.
I've self-harmed, I've beensuicidal.
This is me and I got onlysupport.
I really got only support fromthem.
And then it's been slowly,piece by piece, how public I've
gone.
I tried joining a mental healthorganization for from women and
(32:23):
was told that sorry, but wedon't talk about self-harm and
suicide, so you can't join.
And for me, calling them a weekafter a suicide attempt just
really needing care support,that was the biggest blow that I
could have gotten, because itwas basically me being told that
you're so messed up that youcan't be part of our group.
(32:45):
There's no room for you in thecommunity.
And even we're from a mentalhealth organization.
Our goal is to break stigmas,but you you're too far gone, you
can't join us.
And it was so hard for me.
I think that that next week ortwo after I got off the phone
with this organization, I was soin such a bad place just
(33:06):
because of how hurt I was andhow I felt like, okay, there's
no hope for me.
I am the only one or I know I'mnot the only one, but I will
never know somebody else who hasstruggled with what I do.
I just need one friend, I justneed to know of one other person
who has been at the point oftrying to have killed herself.
And I just need to know thatone person, to know that I'm not
(33:28):
alone, to know that I could beokay one day, and I don't and I
will never have that personbecause I'm not allowed to join
these organizations.
And I think that's where Ifirst realized that maybe I need
to be more open about my ownjourney, because if I'm open
open then somebody else will beable to benefit and we could
(33:49):
slowly start, you know, openingthis conversation and it's been
slow.
What's actually interesting isthis my organization and going
as public as I have now with myname, to my story.
I only decided to do this aftermy most recent suicide attempt
a few months ago.
Like you know what that's it,I'm going public Like it's done.
(34:11):
I need to know I have thesupport.
I need to know other peoplehave the support and we're going
to do it.
Yeah, obviously it's a thingpeople worry about.
I mean, I've got singlesiblings still, which I know I
have.
You know my mother expressedconcern about that.
Like I'm number two in myfamily, I have unmarried
siblings.
My hope is that this willchange the same way.
(34:37):
Down syndrome Right 20 years ago, when a family gave birth to a
child with down syndrome, theyhated that child.
People did not know about thatbecause people were worried I
had.
If there's a Down syndromesibling, no one will want to
touch my family.
And nowadays that's notsomething you think twice about,
like, okay, so there's a Downsyndrome sibling, what's the big
(34:59):
deal?
So for me, first of all, thereshould never be that.
Oh, this sibling has a mentalhealth condition.
Oh, so we can't touch thefamily.
No, no, no, no, no.
We don't know if it's geneticor not, and even if it is, as
long as it's being taken care of, then there's nothing to worry
about.
It should be.
You know, there's so many otherphysical health conditions that
(35:21):
people will hear okay, theprospective girl or boy has such
and such condition.
And what do they do?
Okay, let's call their doctor,let's find out.
Is it managed?
Are they on medication?
How does this affect theirquality of life?
You know, speaking to theprofessionals, unfortunately it
is still too common when peoplehear that the boy or girl is
(35:41):
dealing with a mental healthstruggle, it becomes okay, we
can't touch it.
Why can't it then still just bewell.
Let's call their doctor, let'scall their psychiatrist, let's
call their therapist.
Is it being managed?
Are they aware of it?
I'm, in a way, I would be morewilling to let my child marry
(36:01):
someone who is known theirstruggles and they are therefore
taking the medication or goingto the therapist and getting the
help than someone who does notknow their struggle.
Because if you don't know whatyou're dealing with, if you
don't know if you can be honestand admit that yeah, I've got
depression, you can't get thehelp you need, and that's where
(36:22):
the quality of life is going tobe affected.
I hope that in 10 years fromnow, even sooner, that will be
how it is.
That mental health is justanother like okay, so we find
that out.
The same level that you ask ifthe grandmother has Alzheimer's.
You need to find out if thegrandmother had depression and
nobody asks if the grandmotherhad Alzheimer's.
(36:44):
So nobody needs to ask if thegrandmother had depression and
it should just be that.
It's not a stigma and not athing.
And I have seen now, like Isaid, this letter from peer
support setting up thisorganization, getting Rabbanim
(37:10):
on board, going public, likeI've really seen only bracha,
and I'm therefore confident thatit's going to be okay short
term and long term.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I love that.
That was so important.
I want to go back to one pointthat you said, which was that
you felt that you were beingtold that there was no room for
you, and as you were talking,even before you said that, I was
thinking to myself.
A lot of people leave from lifewhen they feel like they're
struggling and there isn't aspace.
(37:40):
And then, as soon as you saidthat, I knew I had to ask you
what tethers you in the fromcommunity so deeply and why do
you think it is that a lot ofpeople who struggle, either they
come from a home that isdysfunctional or they, you know,
left a marriage that was really, you know, not okay, or they
have mental health struggles, orthey felt misunderstood in a
(38:03):
school they do end up leaving.
And then, when you see someonewho's doing a struggle and does
feel that maybe the communitydoesn't have as much support
instead of leaving, you'remaking a change.
And I wonder what it is for youthat's tethering you so deeply
in our community and inYiddishkeit, and what you would
(38:23):
say to someone who's listeningand saying well, I feel like
there is no room for me herebecause I'm different and I'm
struggling and maybe there isn'ta space for me.
So what would you say to them?
And what caused you?
Instead of saying, look, Ireally just there's no room for
me, so there's no room for me,I'm going to make a change.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
It's a hard question.
I don't have an answer to that.
Honestly, my Judaism has been astruggle, internally anyways.
It's been very hard to keepcertain stuff and I feel like
the amount of times when I'vejust felt like God's out to get
me and he's just being mean tome and it's not fair more times
(39:01):
than I could count.
I don't know what it is, why Ihave chosen to stay and go this
route and other people havechosen to leave, and actually a
very close friend of mine is nolonger from and I don't know his
full story why he left.
But one of the things is thelack of support and I can't say
(39:24):
I understand why people do it,but I understand why people
leave.
It's very hard to staysomewhere where you don't feel
like there is support.
I guess for me it just becamelet's be the change.
I wanted to make sure thatnobody else suffers what I have
had to deal with, but that's not.
I don't know that that's a fairanswer either Because I yeah,
(39:46):
that's not me versus someoneelse.
Why's a fair answer?
Either because I yeah, that'snot me versus someone else.
Why for me, I had that thoughtand someone else didn't.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I think it's an honest answer.
And an honest answer is is good, like we're not looking for for
something that isn't honest.
And I think, you know, yiddishis a religion that accepts the
struggle, like so you struggleand we grapple and we become and
we come out stronger when westruggle and we come out
stronger when we grapple.
And I don't think that that'slike the antithesis to anything
(40:13):
in Yiddish guide in any level,like that's exactly what we're
supposed to do, which is toconfront the struggle and deal
with it and become better peopleand make the world a better
place around us, which isexactly what it sounds like
you're doing.
I have a question before I gointo your organization, which I
want to give enough time to do,but I want to ask you one last
question regarding generalmental health.
(40:35):
So in recent years, there's aday after Kinos where it's a
mental health day for theShluchas.
We talk a whole lot aboutmental health and it's a whole
day just of mental health stuff,and I was speaking to a few
Shulchus and they were like yeah, we're not paying for that,
mental health is overdone.
What would you think about thattype of conversation of like is
(40:57):
mental health overdone?
Is it trendy?
Are we overdoing it, or are wejust now giving it the attention
that it actually really needs?
Speaker 2 (41:07):
It's definitely a very fine line.
There definitely is thatbalance of are we talking about
it because it's cool to talkabout it, versus are we talking
about it to change things.
And I think as long as it'sbeing spoken about for a purpose
, then it's important.
And the Shluch Leis event thatyou're referring to I actually
(41:27):
was there this year and therewas really good information
given and really a lot of it waseven just the camaraderie of
I'm not the only one whostruggles, I'm not the only one
who has a family member whostruggles, who has a community
who I'm supporting with allthese struggles.
And I think that it's stillimportant to have the
(41:48):
conversations, because there arestill too many people who are
shying away from thoseconversations.
And until nobody shies awayfrom them, until these are
topics where everybody andanybody is comfortable having,
then we need to keep shouting itfrom the rooftops just to make
it as common and comfortable aseverything else.
(42:09):
Nobody shies away from talkingabout high blood pressure,
because what's the big deal,high blood pressure?
Until it's the same thing withmental health, we do need to
keep shouting it from therooftops because we need it.
Until it's that common, thereare going to be those people who
are afraid to speak out whenthey are struggling and are
(42:32):
going and therefore not going toget the help they need.
So there needs to be thepurpose.
It shouldn't just be talkingabout it because I want to talk
about, to fill my void, like I'mgoing to.
Like you said at the beginning,the oh, I'll share my story
because it gives me some sort ofsatisfaction.
No, that's not why we talkabout it.
We talk about it because if mesharing my story will allow you
(42:52):
to know that there's anotherfrom woman who's dealt with that
and that you're normal, you'reokay, then it still needs to be
done.
So there just needs to be thatpurpose involved.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's so important.
So tell us about yourorganization what's your
organization called, where wecan find out more information
and who your organization isgeared towards.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
So the organization is called the Drop of Light, our
website ispreventfromsuicideorg all
spelled like the words, and it'sreally geared towards everybody
and anybody.
There are two main parts of theorganization.
First is to start thisconversation around suicide.
(43:36):
The point of it is to raiseawareness of and prevent from
suicides, because ultimately,you don't hear about from people
killing themselves, and thereason you don't hear about that
is not because it doesn'thappen.
The reason you don't hear aboutit is because it's so hushed,
hushed and then the person whois suicidal and does get through
that feeling or does livethrough the suicide attempt
(43:59):
feels like, well, I must be theonly one and that is not true.
So the first part of theorganization is to help those
who struggle.
There are lists of mentalhealth organizations, both from
organizations and nationalUnited States organizations that
deal with suicide, pretty much,just that they specifically
(44:20):
will deal with suicide.
I try not to have organizationsthat deal with mental health in
general but aren't willing totouch suicide, because there's
no point of that.
I have a list of Rabbanim whoare knowledgeable in mental
health, because that isunfortunately.
There are so many Rabbanim whodon't have the knowledge and I
think that's one of the biggestturnoffs for a lot of from
(44:43):
people is I need to haveRabbanim in my life, right as a
from person.
A Rav is a crucial part of mylife.
But if I'm going to call theRav while I'm actively suicidal
but I also happen to be Nida andthe rough says, oh, your
husband can't touch you, heneeds to just explain to you
rationally why he can't touchyou.
(45:03):
That rough is very foolishbecause all that did was push me
closer to the edge.
Because, wait, what does thatmean?
Explain to me rationally.
There is no rationalizing withsomeone who's actively suicidal.
So it's very important thatrobunim have that knowledge and
it's important that when you'restruggling, you know which
(45:24):
robunim have that knowledge.
There are abundant that arelisted on the website, were all
spoken to on the phone.
They were vetted for theirtheir um knowledge and for their
sensitivity that they are ableto answer these questions.
They're able to give you thetime and the space and the
sensitivity you need and theyall agreed to be on the website,
like you don't need to worryabout calling them.
(45:44):
They know that they're listedthere.
They are happy to be listedthere and we do.
Eventually.
Long-term goal is we are hopingto do Rabunim training courses
to help broaden that list thatall Rabunim.
It shouldn't just be that youhave to call a specific mental
health should be all Rabunim.
Have at least basic training.
There's also information on thewebsite of different crisis
(46:07):
lines.
Every single country pretty muchhas a national crisis line that
you could text or call,depending on the country 24 7.
They are not jewish lines,however, I still highly highly
recommend using them.
I volunteer for the unitedstates text line 741 741.
(46:29):
You just text the word hello.
It's actually available inenglish and spanish.
Our line and I'm not the onlyfrom volunteer and there's
actually from supervisors likeand a supervisor has to be a
licensed professional like youcan end up with a from person.
Chances of it are slim, but wejust have resources and
information and could help getyou through whatever it is.
(46:51):
And a crisis line is not suicideonly.
It could be any crisis thatyou're in.
There are hundreds and hundredsof resources available if you
just reach out.
There's also a fascinatingcrisis line.
It's not a crisis line, it'scalled a warm line.
It's called Zaka, and Zaka isactually a from warm line.
(47:13):
It's run by from people andit's specifically for Shabbos
and Yom Kippur.
Do speak to your Rav beforeusing it, because it's not
crisis situation.
It's a warm line, which meansthat I need peer support to help
me prevent reaching crisisstage.
But they are specifically forShabbos and Yom Kippur.
When, as a from person, youneed someone to reach out to,
you need that peer support andyou can't call anybody because
(47:34):
it for Shabbos and Yom Tiv.
When, as a from person, youneed someone to reach out to,
you need that peer support andyou can't call anybody because
it's Shabbos that there arepeople who are there manning
that line.
The line they do have a Rav whoendorsed it, who approves it,
but obviously speak to your ownRav if you have any concerns.
And, as far as a crisis linegoes, if you're ever in crisis,
there is no need to ask a rough.
(47:55):
The Kuach Nefesh always takesprecedence.
The same way you wouldn'thesitate to call 911 if someone
had a heart attack, do nothesitate to call 911 or 988 for
a mental health crisis.
I will just know, on the topicof calling 911 for mental health
, people don't know this topicof calling 911 for mental health
(48:17):
.
People don't know this.
But if you call 911 for amental health situation, specify
that it is mental health.
Especially in the bigger cities, there are specially trained
units who will come out, who arethere to deal with mental
health specifically and justwith more sensitivity.
They probably won't come withtheir lights and sirens on so as
not to escalate the situationLike let them know and if
there's no gun in the house,specify that as well that there
(48:40):
is no gun in the house, becausethat could also just there's a
level of calmness that thepolice know that they could come
with, knowing that there is norisk on that level.
The other side of thisorganization is to help others,
is to start the conversation.
So there's all themisconceptions that people think
they know about suicide butthat they really don't.
(49:02):
One of the most common thingsyou'll hear about is how could
you talk about suicide?
It's going to plant the idea intheir head and that is wrong.
Studies have shown the exactopposite.
If you ask someone, are youthinking of killing yourself?
That is the best way to know ifthey are actually in danger or
not and it's not going to makethem decide hey, that's actually
(49:24):
a great idea.
The same way, if you tellsomeone you know, don't go and
climb that 70 foot tower, is itgoing to make them think, hey,
wait, that sounds like a lot offun, let's go try that out.
Unless their brain is onethat's wired to think that way.
You telling someone, hey, I'mworried about you, are you
having thoughts of suicide?
(49:45):
Isn't going to plant that ideathere, unless their brain is
already misfiring to do that.
So there's just, you know,different myth busters.
You know that people will beupset if you intervene and
therefore you can't intervene.
Like, yeah, they might be upsetin the moment because at that
point they were in so much painthat they really wanted to die,
(50:06):
but guess what, two months fromnow they'll be really grateful
that you reached out.
Or that if somebody is doingreally bad, then suddenly
they're really calm and justseemingly great.
If you see that someone's verycalm after they haven't been
doing well, you could think, oh,baruch, hashem, they're all
better now.
But in fact it might be theopposite, that now they've come
(50:30):
to terms with the fact that,okay, I have this plan, I'm
going to kill myself and this ishow I'm going to do it.
And I have plan and I'm calmbecause I know it's going to be
over soon.
Other things that the websitehas is how to recognize the
signs of suicidal ideation inothers, because that you know
that's very important.
Unless you live under a rock,unless you're the only person in
(50:52):
this world and if you'rehearing this then you're not
then you know people and thatmeans that you know people who
are at risk of suicide and learnthose signs.
Obviously, the biggest ones aretalking about wanting to die
but feeling no sense of purposeand, like I said, the
personality change suddenly verycalm is just as alarming as
(51:14):
suddenly very depressed.
There are obviously like thisis hard with teenagers with mood
swings.
I was having this discussionwith Bokrum at our Shabbos table
one week and they're like well,every Bokrum suddenly goes
through two weeks of justsleeping straight and it's yeah,
that might be accurate whereBokrum can go through.
You know teenagers can gothrough mood swings but it never
(51:37):
hurts to ask and also itteaches on the help others page
of the organization, teaches howto ask.
So you're worried about someone,right?
How do you have thatconversation?
It's a very intimidatingconversation to have and the
main, most important thing, orthe two most important things
number one have resourcesavailable before you start that
(51:59):
conversation.
Have a plan for what you'regoing to do when that person's
going to respond yes, I amsuicidal.
And number two is to know howto have that conversation.
Make sure it's in a calm and anon-judgmental way.
You don't want to ask in a wayof you're not going to do
anything stupid right?
Because nobody's going torespond to that.
Nobody's going to be honestwith that.
(52:20):
Instead, you could saysomething like you know, I've
noticed that you haven't beenresponding to any of my messages
lately.
I'm worried about you.
Sometimes, when people take astep back and don't interact
with people anymore, it'sbecause they're really not in a
good place and they maybe areeven having thoughts of killing
themselves.
Are you having any suchthoughts?
That's a way where the person'smost likely going to actually
(52:43):
say you know what?
Yes, I am having such thoughts.
Know your crisis lines.
Know the hospitals that dealwith mental health.
Be able to give those resourcesto somebody.
There's also what we call onthe crisis line laddering up If
somebody says they're thinkingabout suicide.
(53:04):
There are basically four stages.
There's passive suicidalideation, where I'm thinking
about suicide because I just Iwant to die, but that could just
mean that I don't want to wakeup tomorrow.
Or there are people who willnot put on their seatbelt when
they go in the car, because Ireally don't want to live
(53:24):
anymore, but I don't want toactively take my own life.
So let's put it in God's hands,I'm not going to put on my
seatbelt He'll make me get intoa car accident or just as a
coping mechanism, that well, ifI would be dead, then I would be
okay.
So I'll think about wanting tobe dead to make myself be okay.
So if it's at that level wherethere's no plan, there's nothing
(53:45):
, there's just I'm really not ina happy place right now.
Yes, the person needs help, butyou don't need to be calling 911
.
Once somebody says, yes, I'mhaving thoughts of suicide, the
follow-up question shouldusually be to the effect of you
know, thank you so much forsharing that must be so hard.
To be honest, I know it'sreally difficult to talk about.
(54:05):
Do you have a plan as to howyou would kill yourself?
If they say yes to that, younext want to find out if they
have what they need to carry outthat plan.
Someone has a plan to walk onthe train tracks, but there's no
trains for a hundred mileradius.
You really don't need to be tooconcerned because that plan
(54:26):
won't happen.
And when I say you don't needto be too concerned, I mean you
don't need to call 911 today.
You still need to make surethey get help, because those
thoughts, even if the plan isnot one they could implement
today, having those thoughts isobviously still not healthy.
And once you find out if theyhave what they need for a plan,
you want to find out when theyare thinking of carrying out
(54:49):
that plan.
And if it's within a 48 hourperiod, they need help instantly
.
You do not leave them alone.
Make sure to get safety plan inplace.
Get them to professional,whatever it is, if it's longer
than a 48 hour period,especially if it's something
like oh yeah, well, if I don'tget the job I'm interviewing for
(55:10):
in two weeks from now, thenI'll kill myself.
They need help.
They need help soon, even now,but not instantly, because
suicide is very often aninstantaneous feeling, meaning
if I'm saying I'm going to killmyself in three months from now,
in three months from now, thatfeeling will probably have
(55:33):
passed and changed multipletimes over.
So it's not that same level ofemergency as, yeah, I'm going to
be doing it tomorrow.
Again, anyone who gets to anylevel of this risk assessment,
having thoughts, plans, means ortimeframe.
If there is a yes to any ofthose questions, they need help.
(55:55):
It's a matter of do you need tobe taking them to the ER now or
could you wait until tomorrowfor them to get into their
therapist?
That's pretty much mostly whatI have on the website on the
organization right now.
Long-term goals are more, like Isaid, a bunim training course,
mikva lady training course.
(56:16):
You know, mikva ladies aretrained to recognize signs of
abuse and how to have thosethings.
What about signs of self harmand how to talk about that?
Those are also things to knowabout courses for school
yeshivas, yeshiva.
I had a friend who was a CTEENleader.
(56:36):
Right, I have a friend who wasa CTEEN leader and she was on a
CTEEN trip and a girl came toher and said so-and-so is
cutting and she did not knowwhat that meant.
And when she told me that, Iwas horrified.
How could you be in charge of agroup of dozens of teens and
not know what cutting means,that that means self-harm, that
is dangerous.
(56:57):
The fact that there are any highschools, yeshivas seminaries,
that don't have full-on suicideawareness training is so
dangerous, so dangerous.
Those are the years where themost suicide attempts take place
.
You need to be aware of thesigns of mental health.
(57:19):
You need to be aware of thesigns of suicide.
I'm actually very proud to saythat the Postville Yeshiva is
getting mental health first aidcertification before the next
Zman, because they haverecognized that fact that you
know what we are dealing withteenagers.
We need to know thisinformation to be able to help
(57:39):
our students, and it doesn'tmean that there's anything wrong
with our students, it meansthat we need that.
So that's right now where theorganization is holding.
It's still very much in itsinfancy, but we're hoping to
grow bigger and bigger over thenext however many years.
But that's where it is rightnow amazing.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
So, hadassah, I want to give you a bracha, actually
which?
is not how I usually end, but Iwant to give you a bracha that
actually you shouldn't need theorganization at all, amen, which
is the ultimate bracha.
That everyone should have allthe things that they need, um,
that they should feel minuchahsanath vashem in a really deep
way so that we don't need it.
But until the time that we arein that place, I really I wish
(58:25):
you a lot of hatzlacha and I'mreally happy with the fact that
we had this conversation.
It was real, it was authentic,it was something that is really,
really needed.
So, if you are listening tothis conversation and you are
worried, I'm going to just recapsome of the points that
Hadassah said.
Ask the tough question, askdirectly are you considering
suicide?
(58:45):
Listen to the person withoutjudgment.
Call 911 or your localemergency number, like Hatala,
you can also text TALK to 741741and you are going to actually
connect to someone who is atrained crisis counselor.
Do not leave a person who isconsidering suicide.
Stay with that person untilprofessional help arrives.
Try to remove any weapons,medications or anything else
(59:08):
that is potentially harmful.
And I want to also remind youthat there is another number
aside for 911, which is thesuicide and crisis lifeline,
which is just 9-8-8, so you canuse any of those tools while you
are getting help for the personwho needs the help.
But in Mirtz Hashem we shouldall be blessed that nobody
should need any of the toolsthat we got.
(59:30):
But if, in the event that youor someone else does need this
support, remember that there isno shame in getting the help
that you need, because youdeserve to have all your needs
met in an emotional and mentalhealth capacity.
Thank you so much, hadassah,for reaching us.
We are linking her website toHadassah to get peer support.
(59:56):
Or if you would like to talk toHadassah about bringing some of
her amazing tools andconnections to your community,
we will link that as well.
Thank you so much for thisamazing conversation.
This was really, reallyimportant and I hope that
everyone gained and grew as muchas I did.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Thank you so much for having me, rizki.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Rusty, thank you for joining me on this past hour.
I'm so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to spend
the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
at bodysoulscom Remember, that'stwo S's.
(01:00:36):
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing or if you
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
Good morning and welcome to Bodies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
Today we have a wonderful guestwith us, but this episode does
come with a trigger warning.
If you or someone you know isthinking of hurting themselves,
committing suicide or has otherthoughts of self-harm, this
episode should be listened towith discretion.
So, without further ado, I'mgoing to introduce our topic.
(00:28):
Today.
We are actually talking about apersonal story of suicide, but
this is a story that really hasa lot of nuggets of wisdom for
all of us.
So if you are in a capacity oftaking care of other people,
whether that's as a teacher, asa counselor of other people,
whether that's as a teacher, asa counselor, as administration
in any facility, or you are acommunity leader in any sort of
(00:53):
way, this is a very importantepisode for you to listen to.
There are tools, there aretricks, there are resources.
There's so much wisdom in thisepisode and so many resources.
You will hear a personal storyof someone's personal journey,
but you will also learn so muchalong the way.
So I cannot wait to introduceyou to Hadassah.
Good morning and welcome toBodies and Souls.
(01:15):
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
Today, we have the privilegeand honor of having Hadassah
Zirkin with us.
Hadassah is a young Lubavitchermother who is passionate about
starting the conversationsurrounding all parts of mental
illness.
She is the founder of a neworganization called A Drop of
Light.
This is an organization aimedat raising awareness of and
(01:37):
preventing from suicides.
Hadassah also volunteers as acrisis counselor for the crisis
text line and is MHFA certified,which I don't even know what
that means, but sounds very cool.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
All the letters.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So, hadathah, before we start talking about our topic
today, maybe just tell us alittle bit about yourself, where
you grew up, where you'reliving, just so people you know
feel like we have context forthe conversation that we're
having.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
Mhfa is Mental Health First Aid.
Just to clarify what thatstands for, it's a pretty much a
course giving basic knowledgeon mental health.
Highly recommend it toeverybody.
So I grew up in Los Angelespretty typical, from house,
typical, yeah, really typicallife.
(02:23):
Grew up in a from house in LosAngeles, got married and now I
live in Iowa and I have a fewkids Kanai, nahara and yeah,
that's pretty much me.
I think the weird things changeis what people don't see is
that I struggled with mentalhealth challenges for don't see
(02:48):
is that I struggled with mentalhealth challenges for most of my
life.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Thank you, first of all, for being here, because I
know I was just telling youbefore we started that this is a
very vulnerable podcast, and Iwant to just clarify, because
there's sometimes like a littlebit of a difference between
being vulnerable and just, youknow, almost like exhibitionism,
right?
So this is not.
Hadassah doesn't have the needto talk about this for herself.
You know, this is not somethingthat's serving hadassah's
purpose.
(03:11):
This is serving a largerpurpose and I think that we need
to start the conversation from.
This isn't just for clicks,right?
This is for us to learn andgrow and become better as a
community.
So, hadassah, when you talkabout, you know, struggling with
your mental health.
At what age did you startstruggling with mental health?
What does that look like?
(03:32):
Is there a diagnosis?
What was the progression ofthings for you?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Okay.
So first of all I realized wedidn't say this and probably
should.
There will be talk aboutself-harm and suicide.
So if those are not topics thatyou are comfortable listening
to, that's not safe for you tolisten to.
Do not listen to this episode.
That being said, in hindsight Icould probably diagnose myself
(03:58):
with anxiety from very youngsecond grade, third grade, like
really young but it's notsomething that I recognized at
that time.
The first time where I think Irecognized that there was
something going on, I wasprobably in eighth grade, so
let's say, 14 years old, andthat was the first time that I
(04:20):
self-harmed.
So at that point, once Istarted self-harming, I realized
that obviously there'ssomething very wrong.
But still there was no officialdiagnosis.
I never went.
I went to therapists but it wasalways more my mother pushing
me to go get help, not because Iwanted to get help, which means
(04:42):
help was not gotten because itneeds to be your own work and
things pretty much continuedlike that.
Where there was something wrong.
I had anger issues, which is aoffshoot of depression very
often and just self harming anddepressed for probably till I
(05:02):
got pregnant with my first.
Once I got pregnant with myfirst, I developed prenatal
depression, so everything justreally got very bad.
And then, once I gave birth,the postpartum period was also,
you know, morphed intopostpartum depression and at
that point my husband was likeokay, something's going on, you
(05:23):
need to get help.
I also became pregnant with mysecond when my oldest was only
five months, so they're veryclose in age.
So at that point it was formyself as well, recognizing oh,
there's something going on andif I'm going to be having
another child, I must get thehelp I need in order to be a
(05:44):
functioning mother.
So I went to a therapist, reallydidn't stick it out, and I was
never honest about how bad I wasdoing, which is very hard.
It's very hard to be vulnerableand open and honest about how
you're doing.
So I was seeing a therapist butI never disclosed that I
self-harmed or you know thatthose were things that I
struggled with, that I dealtwith.
(06:05):
So it kind of stayed at like,kind of receiving help, not
really receiving help, knowingthere's something wrong, my
husband being very aware thatthere's something wrong, but
never properly getting real,real help.
And then, after I had my thirdchild, who also my kids are
(06:26):
within two and a half years, sovery close in age.
Three kids and somethinghappened where there was a
situation where my childrencould have been in danger not to
go into details but it was very, very not good situation and at
that point it became okay.
You need real help.
(06:47):
Like going to therapists on andoff is not enough, and that's
when I started taking medication.
So that's about four years agoI started taking medication.
Medication isn't an answer,it's not a cure If you're not
doing the work and medicationonly helps so much.
Obviously, if you needmedication, take it, but it's in
(07:09):
addition to doing internal work.
So about a year after that, Iwas suicidal for the first time.
I was threatening to killmyself.
I started acting on that plan.
It was a very long night.
We spent the night with thepolice force and the mobile
crisis unit and, yeah, it was asituation and it's pretty much
(07:33):
since then.
The last three years have justbeen a cycle of doing okay and
then slowly getting worse andhitting the point of suicidal
again.
I've been suicidal twice sincethat point.
We're in the middle of workingout, figuring out exactly what
it is that is causing that.
I have this constant cycle ofdoing okay and then not.
(07:55):
So we are aware it is a work inprogress, baruch Hashem, right
now I am stable, I am okay, butthis is pretty much my life
right now therapy and medicationand the knowledge that I have
depression and besides for justdepression, pmdd, which is PMS
on steroids is how I like todescribe it.
(08:17):
You know, people think of PMSwhen they're on their period or
around their period.
They are moody, they're notfeeling their best all of that
Someone who has PMDD.
It's a lot deeper than that andit could go as far as psychosis
and suicide, which is whathappens to me.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Thank you for sharing that so clearly.
I think the next questionpeople are going to ask is well,
there must have been a trauma,like was there something that
caused you to be this way.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Were you molested?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Did you watch someone die?
Did something happen thatcaused you to be this way?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right?
So that's a very hard questionfor me to answer.
Actually, that's what I'mcurrently in therapy trying to
see if there's some sort ofsuppressed trauma.
It's actually my current workbecause there are little things
which I could say I blame it on,but nothing that stands out as
what really should be triggeringthis.
(09:14):
Like there was no realmolestation.
There was a situation but itdid not involve any touching or
anything, and it's not somethingthat I think is to go into, but
like there was something whichmaybe plays a role, but I don't
know how much it plays a role.
The first time I self-harmedthat year, I grew up in a very
(09:36):
small apartment.
We grew up in a two bedroomapartment and I'm one of six
kids, kanai Nahara.
So that year my only sister,who's eight years younger than
me, joined my school.
So I was walking to school withher every day and I think for
me there was something verydifficult in that that I had had
that separation of like at homeI have no space and at school
(09:59):
I'm my own person and then thosetwo things merged because I was
with her and that's kind of, inmy head, always been oh, that
must have been the trigger forwhy you felt so badly that year.
But I don't really know.
And the first time Iself-harmed which is also the
thing is, people think, oh, youmust have heard about
(10:19):
self-harming, you must havewanted to try it out, whatever
it is, and that wasn't the caseI self-harmed.
I had emotions that I needed torelease and I didn't know how
to release them.
And I did an action whichincluded inflicting pain on
myself, and realized, wow, thatreally was a release.
And then it spiraled from there, meaning I didn't self-harm for
(10:43):
the point of self-harming, butit then grew from there and very
often, once self-harm is inplay, it can go further to
suicide.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Not always just because you know someone who is
self-harming, you do not need tobe worried that suicide is
going to come next, but it cancome next that's very
interesting because you're veryyoung and when we talk about
self-harm, we're usually talkingabout like teenagers and like
older, like I think that that'sthe thought that comes to
(11:16):
people's mind and not a child asyoung as you are.
I wonder if the adults aroundyou, like you said your mother
took you to help.
So I'm assuming, like you'reliving in a small space, like
how easy would it have been foryou to hide it from her?
But even the things that you'redescribing like this was your
trauma that you were.
You know you were walking youryounger sibling to school and
you were merging the home and Imean I don't think anyone like
(11:39):
as a parent, like we would belike that's just normal, we
would give our you know, tellour kid, you're the older
sibling you've got to do.
What you got to do, like it'snot something that we would even
think that that would be thecause of anything larger.
And I wonder, like, what causedyour mother to even notice that
something was wrong?
Like, what did she do at thatpoint?
(11:59):
And do you think that as aparent, like looking back and
someone who is now trained,would you have done anything
differently?
And I apologize if yourmother's listening, because
obviously she did the best thatshe can and I don't know her,
but I'm sure she did the bestthat she was able to do.
So this is not a, you know, adiscussion about let's go back
in time and change things,because as a parent, we don't do
(12:19):
the best with the tools that wehave.
But I wonder if you, lookingback, like as mothers who are
listening, and maybe you knowwe're noticing something, what
could be done differently.
So tell us what happened andhow she noticed and was it a
teacher at school, was it yourmother?
And then what you think inretrospect could have been done
(12:39):
differently.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So I do want to preface what.
I do not blame either of myparents for anything, like I.
Really, I genuinely do believethat they did the best they
could.
The space we were living in wasnot because they wanted us to
be living in this space.
They they were doing what theycould with what they had and
with the knowledge that they had, and I'm very grateful for
(13:02):
everything that they've everdone for me.
That being said, my mother Ithink most of the time sent me
for help because of my anger.
I got very angry to the pointthat I was borderline abusive to
my siblings, like I was reallynot in a healthy place and I
think that's more of where itwas.
I don't know and I don't thinkthat they ever put together the
(13:26):
fact that there is depressioninvolved here.
I think it was more just angerissues.
And again, as a teenager, ifI'm not willing to talk to the
therapist which I never was theycouldn't do any more.
I didn't give them anything towork with and I never did as
much as yes, living in a smallspace, I had no privacy.
(13:47):
My mother did not know.
I self-harmed until a few weeksago a few months ago actually,
when I was going public with myorganization.
That's when I told my parentshow bad my mental health has
been.
They did not know it.
I did manage to hide it, whichis common and also very
unfortunate, because you do needthe support.
(14:10):
And as a parent, what I wouldsay to do different in hindsight
?
I think just really be aware ofmood changes and obviously as a
teenager that's really hardbecause we're talking a 14 year
old who you know I'm goingthrough puberty, like obviously
I'm hormonal and my moods areconstantly fluctuating and the
anger, like that's normal forthat age.
(14:33):
But just be aware, maybe didsomething happen?
Are the mood swings gettingmore extreme?
Just any shift in anything?
Are they getting more?
And try and have thatconversation then, like just be
aware of the minor changes, butmore than that.
Unfortunately I don't know howmuch more there is that could
(14:56):
have been done at that point doyou think that your teachers and
schools noticed this or thiswas just parents?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
because I'll tell you example like I just came back
from Montreal and I travelextensively to talk to really
it's preteens, not teens as muchright now, and I'm doing a lot
of puberty talk and I alwayshave a slide where I talk about
mental health and, yeah, I'mseeing these kids for 45 minutes
an hour, depending on theschool, like really not a whole
(15:24):
lot of time.
But I always feel like it'simportant to insert like, if
you're feeling these type offeelings, go to a trusted adult.
Let them know what you'refeeling.
They might not notice it, likekids don't always know that
their parents are really busyand fragmented, and like running
18 tabs at a time.
Let them know what's happeningbecause they have tools that
they can help you.
Let them know what's happeningbecause they have tools that
they can help you.
(15:44):
I wonder if a teacher noticed,or if this was a conversation
that was had at any point inyour schooling, or if we should
be having more of theseconversations, and would it have
helped you if someone hadspoken like that?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So teachers never noticed or said anything.
In high school I was definitelyso.
(16:19):
I was this really good who justI sat in the back corner of the
classroom.
That was my seat every year,the back corner, very quiet,
like.
I had teachers who joked thatif student getting the good
grades not making trouble, allof that.
There were times when I triedreaching out to teachers in my
own way and I guess I never hadthe courage to be open would be
more like I didn't write alittle halacha question on the
test.
You know, can you help mefigure such and such out and
(16:43):
hoping to use that as a way toget a one-on-one conversation
with a teacher?
That I liked, but I never wasbrave enough to go and speak
openly to any teachers and thatbeing the case that most
teenagers are not going to go toan adult, most teenagers are
not brave enough to have thoseconversations there does need to
(17:06):
be systems in place that thesetopics are discussed, because
you mentioned that people thinkof self-harm, suicide.
As you know, teenagers,unfortunately it's getting
younger and younger.
I had someone reach out to meyesterday actually that her
seven-year-old is threateningsuicide.
Someone reach out to meyesterday actually that her
(17:26):
seven-year-old is threateningsuicide, like that's really,
really young, that's aseven-year-old.
And if teachers have some sortI know we have.
My husband works in a yeshivahere and one of the things that
they're trying to do is to makesure that every single anhala
member has a group of bahrimthat they will develop, that
kesher with and check up on, andthat's a way that could be done
(17:49):
.
Obviously, a bigger school,smaller school, like there are
methods and not methods, but itis important for teachers to try
and notice not just the kidwho's struggling academically,
struggling socially, but thatkid who is flying under the
radar, academically, strugglingsocially, but that kid who is
flying under the radar.
They might be the one cryingfor help the loudest and you
don't notice that becausethey're, you know, checking all
(18:11):
the boxes and they just needsomeone to say, hey, are you
okay?
Cause I do think that ifsomeone had actually come over
to me and express genuine care,I would have opened up, because
I was looking for that.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Very interesting.
I think the kid who makes theloudest noise gets the most
attention.
And you were fine, right,academically you were fine.
So you were fine and that'sjust how it was.
And even if somebody you knowwould have raised the bell, you
were also already in therapy.
Like, what would the schoolhave asked your mother to do?
Send you to therapy, but youwere already in therapy.
(18:46):
So, with those subtle signs, Idon't even know that the
situation you know would haveplayed out differently had
someone come in the classroomand talk to you about this.
So let's talk about the sciencebehind this.
So what causes certain peopleto be more prone to anxiety,
depression, pmdd which, by theway, I use the exact same
(19:07):
explanation?
When I tell you know womenabout this, I'm like it's just
PMS on steroids.
You know suicide or you knoweven self-harm.
What would cause someone,without noticeable trauma, to be
more prone to doing this?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
There's actually very little knowledge in this field.
Yet Mental health in general isan emerging field.
Think back 100 years ago, orreally less than 100 years ago.
People were being givenelectric shocks as, oh, this is
going to be the cure forwhatever it is.
So there are those who say thatit can be genetic, but there is
(19:45):
no necessary proof that it isgenetic.
Trauma is usually the mainreason for such extreme things.
That is usually it.
It can be actually a headinjury like a physical injury
can cause this stuff.
A head injury like actually aphysical injury can cause this
(20:08):
stuff.
And then all the just theoutside factors.
It doesn't need to be a bigtrauma.
It could just be how your brainreacts to all the little pieces
around you can cause thesebehaviors and emotions to come
out.
People self harm for a varietyof reasons and when you hear
that someone is self-harming, Ithink the most important thing
(20:29):
to do is to find out why.
As a crisis counselor, wheneversomebody says you know they're
struggling with self-harm, myfirst question always is people
self-harm for a variety ofreasons.
What is it that you get out ofself-harm?
The main reasons peopleself-harm are to have a physical
manifestation of an emotionalpain.
(20:50):
You know they're feeling reallysad about something, but they
don't know they want to actuallylike, really feel it.
So they'll harm themselves as away to physically feel it.
It could be as a punishment youknow I'm feeling guilty for A,
b and C and therefore I'mharming myself.
(21:32):
No-transcript.
Do it because they don't feellovable and they don't want to
be able to be loved.
So if my body is scarred andmessed up, then really nobody's
going to love me and it's justgoing to solidify it.
It could be because they hatethemselves.
I'm not loved and I want totherefore punish my body, and it
(21:55):
could also just be.
And this is what it is.
For me is when I self-harm,there is a release of emotion
and of energy and it's it's.
It's a coping mechanism ofsorts.
It just is a release for me.
And no, that's not a healthymethod and please don't go and
try it.
But at the same time, it's thekind of thing where your typical
(22:16):
person is not going to feel arelease from it.
Your brain has to have thesemisfires in order to feel like
that.
So those are the differentreasons people could self-harm
and they really.
There is no guaranteed scienceof oh, this is what it's from
why you're doing it.
It's really very unknown stillexactly what the reasons behind
(22:41):
it is.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Right.
So it's very varied and wedon't necessarily know why every
single person is.
Is there a genetic component,like if somebody's parents
struggled with their mentalhealth, they'll struggle with
their mental health?
Is there an epigeneticcomponent to this of like there
was intergenerational trauma andthen we're more prone to this?
Are there those type ofcomponents to this?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
as well.
There are definitely theoriesthat say that it's not set in
stone, though, meaning you dosee, there is a lot of anxiety
in the orthodox jewish communityactually, which is thought of
as just yeah, generategenerational trauma.
We've always been persecuted andwe always have to flee from one
(23:26):
place to the next, and there'sthat.
If you grew up in a home wherepeople struggled with mental
health, so there is a chancethat you will as well, but also
just because of the environmentof your home, and that's where
it's not clear.
Is it that there's actuallyyour brain has the same chemical
(23:48):
imbalances, or is it that yougrew up in an anxiety filled
house and therefore youdeveloped anxiety as well
because that was the environmentyou were always in?
So it is difficult, like I knowpeople who there are more than
one person in the family who'staking medication, but they're
(24:11):
taking different classes ofmedication, which means that the
chemical imbalance that's beingaddressed are different.
So are you going to say thatthe fact that both of those
siblings have depression thatit's genetic?
You can't really say that,being that they're in two
different classes of medication,so it is hard.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
there definitely is room to say that it's genetic,
but it's not set in stone soit's nature versus nurture and
we don't necessarily know andsome of it is just your brain,
almost like exactly just doingwhat it does because it does
Exactly.
Earlier in this conversationyou mentioned a few times, like
I wasn't getting real help.
(24:52):
What is real help?
And my hands are on quotes,right, so like quote unquote.
What does real help mean?
Because you know, if you'resending a kid to a therapist,
you're kind of assuming thatthey're going to get what they
need out of that.
But you said that you weren'tgetting real help.
So what would real help looklike?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think, in order for it to be real help, the person
themselves needs to want to behelped.
Now, as a parent, that's hard,because you can't force your
child to want to be helped andyou could see that they need the
help and therefore send them tothe therapist.
And if they don't want to behelped or they don't recognize
that there's anything wrong withthem, then they won't be able
(25:33):
to get the help they need.
And that's what it was in mycase, is I never went because I
chose to go and because Ithought there was something
wrong with me and because Iwanted to go, it was always no,
hadassah, you are going to thistherapist to lead shows and
therefore there was even thatspace of me to say, well, I
(25:54):
don't like this therapist.
Could we try someone else, whichI think maybe, as a parent, if
you're going to be sending achild to get professional help,
to make sure that they are awarethat if you don't click with
this person, that's okay.
A therapist is like a shidduchyou really need to fit, but you
do need to be getting help andsupport.
(26:16):
So let's find someone who youdo connect with.
And, as a parent, I think it'sjust important, like I said,
that your child is aware of that, that they could have veto
power on this specificprofessional and you could see
someone else.
But it really has to come fromthe person.
If someone does not want tochange, change is not possible.
(26:36):
You know, you can lead a horseto water, you can't make him
drink.
So you could go send your childfrom one therapist to the next
if they don't recognize thatthere is something that needs to
be done or they're just seeingit as.
Mommy and Tati are punishing meand forcing me to go then
nothing's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's such an important thing to give the
child a little bit of theempowerment and the ownership of
the process, so that they canreally benefit from the process
in a real way.
And I think that's hard becausefor some parents there doesn't
feel like there might be anoption, especially if there's a
financial component, meaninglike this is who our insurance
is covering, this is who we canafford.
Like we don't have thoseoptions, so that might be a
really big struggle for someparents.
(27:19):
You mentioned earlier that yourhusband is a Rebbe in the
Yeshiva, so that means he'ssomeone who is in a community
leadership position.
Rebbe in the yeshiva, so thatmeans he's someone who is in a
community leadership position.
Yes, so what's interesting tome is I think that barak hashem
is wonderful.
Our community has come so farwhen we relate to subjects like
mental health, but I don't thinkit's come far enough to be like
(27:40):
okay, suicide and that's likesuicide is still off the table,
um, so we can talk about ouranxiety.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
we can talk about postpartum depression, so that's
fine, but self-harm, suicide,oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
So your husband's not working for himself in business
, he's in an active communityrole and I wonder, like, how
does the community stigma which,although we've come and we've
made so many great strides, I dothink it's still very much
present in those two particularareas?
So how did he feel about whenyou were like, ok, I got to talk
about this publicly and I needto start an organization and I'm
(28:14):
going to be verbal about it,and I know, I know that you have
shared anonymously in the pastand you're really not doing that
anymore more.
So I wonder how he feels aboutthat and how you feel about it.
And have you thought about like, will the community?
by the time my kids are, youknow, in Shidduchim and I know
that's so- cliche but I know asa mother, that's still going to
(28:36):
be a conversation you're havingwith yourself.
Like is it going to affect them?
Like we care about our kids, wewant the best for them, and is
my need to make a difference inthe community going to affect my
husband, my children or myself?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Right, so really good question.
First of all, you mentionedthat I've shared anonymously.
I have to say really thank youto you and to Sarah Lowenthal.
You guys were the first placewhere I shared my story, when I
reached out to you and I said,hey, are you going to talk about
self-harm and suicide?
And your response was well, ifyou tell us what to write,
because we don't know this, thenwe'll publish it.
(29:09):
And I published my journeyanonymously at that point.
But you guys were my steppingboard to being where I am now.
So me being as public as I amright now is actually a very
interesting story the first timethat I tried killing myself
actually a very interestingstory the first time that I
(29:30):
tried killing myself.
So the next day my husband,obviously as a Lubavitcher,
chassid.
He wrote a letter to the Rebbe.
He sent a letter to the Ayaland this is something you know,
I know not every all thelisteners here are Lubavitchers.
So this is something peoplestill do, even though the Rebbe
has passed away.
They will send a letter, sendit to the aisle where the rabbi
is buried and just asking thatthe rabbi up in shabayim
(29:52):
intercede on our behalf and helpthat, help bench us intercede
that everything be okay.
And one of the things a lot ofpeople have the custom of doing
is they'll open a volume calledthe igris, which is letters that
the rabbi wrote to peopleduring their during his lifetime
, and they'll open it up.
And they'll open a volumecalled the Igress, which is
letters that the rabbi wrote topeople during his lifetime, and
they'll open it up and they'lljust read a few letters that
(30:12):
catch their eyes randomly to seeif there's something in there
that could give them chizuk,could give them bracha, could
just help them in that situation.
And it's fascinating.
But we do know that tzaddikimhave more power after their
neshama leaves their limitedbody than it did while it was
stuck here in a body on earth.
(30:33):
And there are so many stories ofpeople getting really really,
really clear answers and that'swhat happened in this case.
My husband wrote in asking thatI should have a bracha for a
foshulema, that everythingshould be okay, that I should be
okay, all of that, and heopened up a volume of the Igris
and the letter he opened up tothe Rebbe was writing to an
(30:56):
individual who was obviouslydealing with a medical challenge
and in this letter the Rebbemade three main points.
Point number one was that thisperson should make sure to take
medication.
Point number two was that thisperson should make sure to take
medication.
Point number two was that itwas going to be a very long
journey.
This person was not going toget better quickly.
It's going to be full of upsand downs, it was going to be
long and hard.
And the third point that theRebbe made was that this person
(31:18):
should use their struggles tohelp others.
So my husband did not tell methis answer the next day, like
he didn't go and be likehadassah it's gonna be long and
hard and use your challenge.
No, no, no, he's smarter thanthat.
He did not do that, but it didthen become.
That, I think, was actuallyonce I wrote the article for
(31:40):
bodies and souls.
He told me he's like oh yeah,the rabbbe wrote in that answer
that you should use yourchallenge to help others.
And slowly, slowly I actually afew years ago we had a Bikr
Chaylim event here in Postville.
I'm one of the people who runsthe Bikr Chaylim and we decided
we wanted to talk about mentalhealth and I stood up in front
(32:02):
of the whole Postville and saidhere's my story.
Here's what I've struggled with.
I've self-harmed, I've beensuicidal.
This is me and I got onlysupport.
I really got only support fromthem.
And then it's been slowly,piece by piece, how public I've
gone.
I tried joining a mental healthorganization for from women and
(32:23):
was told that sorry, but wedon't talk about self-harm and
suicide, so you can't join.
And for me, calling them a weekafter a suicide attempt just
really needing care support,that was the biggest blow that I
could have gotten, because itwas basically me being told that
you're so messed up that youcan't be part of our group.
(32:45):
There's no room for you in thecommunity.
And even we're from a mentalhealth organization.
Our goal is to break stigmas,but you you're too far gone, you
can't join us.
And it was so hard for me.
I think that that next week ortwo after I got off the phone
with this organization, I was soin such a bad place just
(33:06):
because of how hurt I was andhow I felt like, okay, there's
no hope for me.
I am the only one or I know I'mnot the only one, but I will
never know somebody else who hasstruggled with what I do.
I just need one friend, I justneed to know of one other person
who has been at the point oftrying to have killed herself.
And I just need to know thatone person, to know that I'm not
(33:28):
alone, to know that I could beokay one day, and I don't and I
will never have that personbecause I'm not allowed to join
these organizations.
And I think that's where Ifirst realized that maybe I need
to be more open about my ownjourney, because if I'm open
open then somebody else will beable to benefit and we could
(33:49):
slowly start, you know, openingthis conversation and it's been
slow.
What's actually interesting isthis my organization and going
as public as I have now with myname, to my story.
I only decided to do this aftermy most recent suicide attempt
a few months ago.
Like you know what that's it,I'm going public Like it's done.
(34:11):
I need to know I have thesupport.
I need to know other peoplehave the support and we're going
to do it.
Yeah, obviously it's a thingpeople worry about.
I mean, I've got singlesiblings still, which I know I
have.
You know my mother expressedconcern about that.
Like I'm number two in myfamily, I have unmarried
siblings.
My hope is that this willchange the same way.
(34:37):
Down syndrome Right 20 years ago, when a family gave birth to a
child with down syndrome, theyhated that child.
People did not know about thatbecause people were worried I
had.
If there's a Down syndromesibling, no one will want to
touch my family.
And nowadays that's notsomething you think twice about,
like, okay, so there's a Downsyndrome sibling, what's the big
(34:59):
deal?
So for me, first of all, thereshould never be that.
Oh, this sibling has a mentalhealth condition.
Oh, so we can't touch thefamily.
No, no, no, no, no.
We don't know if it's geneticor not, and even if it is, as
long as it's being taken care of, then there's nothing to worry
about.
It should be.
You know, there's so many otherphysical health conditions that
(35:21):
people will hear okay, theprospective girl or boy has such
and such condition.
And what do they do?
Okay, let's call their doctor,let's find out.
Is it managed?
Are they on medication?
How does this affect theirquality of life?
You know, speaking to theprofessionals, unfortunately it
is still too common when peoplehear that the boy or girl is
(35:41):
dealing with a mental healthstruggle, it becomes okay, we
can't touch it.
Why can't it then still just bewell.
Let's call their doctor, let'scall their psychiatrist, let's
call their therapist.
Is it being managed?
Are they aware of it?
I'm, in a way, I would be morewilling to let my child marry
(36:01):
someone who is known theirstruggles and they are therefore
taking the medication or goingto the therapist and getting the
help than someone who does notknow their struggle.
Because if you don't know whatyou're dealing with, if you
don't know if you can be honestand admit that yeah, I've got
depression, you can't get thehelp you need, and that's where
(36:22):
the quality of life is going tobe affected.
I hope that in 10 years fromnow, even sooner, that will be
how it is.
That mental health is justanother like okay, so we find
that out.
The same level that you ask ifthe grandmother has Alzheimer's.
You need to find out if thegrandmother had depression and
nobody asks if the grandmotherhad Alzheimer's.
(36:44):
So nobody needs to ask if thegrandmother had depression and
it should just be that.
It's not a stigma and not athing.
And I have seen now, like Isaid, this letter from peer
support setting up thisorganization, getting Rabbanim
(37:10):
on board, going public, likeI've really seen only bracha,
and I'm therefore confident thatit's going to be okay short
term and long term.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I love that.
That was so important.
I want to go back to one pointthat you said, which was that
you felt that you were beingtold that there was no room for
you, and as you were talking,even before you said that, I was
thinking to myself.
A lot of people leave from lifewhen they feel like they're
struggling and there isn't aspace.
(37:40):
And then, as soon as you saidthat, I knew I had to ask you
what tethers you in the fromcommunity so deeply and why do
you think it is that a lot ofpeople who struggle, either they
come from a home that isdysfunctional or they, you know,
left a marriage that was really, you know, not okay, or they
have mental health struggles, orthey felt misunderstood in a
(38:03):
school they do end up leaving.
And then, when you see someonewho's doing a struggle and does
feel that maybe the communitydoesn't have as much support
instead of leaving, you'remaking a change.
And I wonder what it is for youthat's tethering you so deeply
in our community and inYiddishkeit, and what you would
(38:23):
say to someone who's listeningand saying well, I feel like
there is no room for me herebecause I'm different and I'm
struggling and maybe there isn'ta space for me.
So what would you say to them?
And what caused you?
Instead of saying, look, Ireally just there's no room for
me, so there's no room for me,I'm going to make a change.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
It's a hard question.
I don't have an answer to that.
Honestly, my Judaism has been astruggle, internally anyways.
It's been very hard to keepcertain stuff and I feel like
the amount of times when I'vejust felt like God's out to get
me and he's just being mean tome and it's not fair more times
(39:01):
than I could count.
I don't know what it is, why Ihave chosen to stay and go this
route and other people havechosen to leave, and actually a
very close friend of mine is nolonger from and I don't know his
full story why he left.
But one of the things is thelack of support and I can't say
(39:24):
I understand why people do it,but I understand why people
leave.
It's very hard to staysomewhere where you don't feel
like there is support.
I guess for me it just becamelet's be the change.
I wanted to make sure thatnobody else suffers what I have
had to deal with, but that's not.
I don't know that that's a fairanswer either Because I yeah,
(39:46):
that's not me versus someoneelse.
Why's a fair answer?
Either because I yeah, that'snot me versus someone else.
Why for me, I had that thoughtand someone else didn't.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I think it's an honest answer.
And an honest answer is is good, like we're not looking for for
something that isn't honest.
And I think, you know, yiddishis a religion that accepts the
struggle, like so you struggleand we grapple and we become and
we come out stronger when westruggle and we come out
stronger when we grapple.
And I don't think that that'slike the antithesis to anything
(40:13):
in Yiddish guide in any level,like that's exactly what we're
supposed to do, which is toconfront the struggle and deal
with it and become better peopleand make the world a better
place around us, which isexactly what it sounds like
you're doing.
I have a question before I gointo your organization, which I
want to give enough time to do,but I want to ask you one last
question regarding generalmental health.
(40:35):
So in recent years, there's aday after Kinos where it's a
mental health day for theShluchas.
We talk a whole lot aboutmental health and it's a whole
day just of mental health stuff,and I was speaking to a few
Shulchus and they were like yeah, we're not paying for that,
mental health is overdone.
What would you think about thattype of conversation of like is
(40:57):
mental health overdone?
Is it trendy?
Are we overdoing it, or are wejust now giving it the attention
that it actually really needs?
Speaker 2 (41:07):
It's definitely a very fine line.
There definitely is thatbalance of are we talking about
it because it's cool to talkabout it, versus are we talking
about it to change things.
And I think as long as it'sbeing spoken about for a purpose
, then it's important.
And the Shluch Leis event thatyou're referring to I actually
(41:27):
was there this year and therewas really good information
given and really a lot of it waseven just the camaraderie of
I'm not the only one whostruggles, I'm not the only one
who has a family member whostruggles, who has a community
who I'm supporting with allthese struggles.
And I think that it's stillimportant to have the
(41:48):
conversations, because there arestill too many people who are
shying away from thoseconversations.
And until nobody shies awayfrom them, until these are
topics where everybody andanybody is comfortable having,
then we need to keep shouting itfrom the rooftops just to make
it as common and comfortable aseverything else.
(42:09):
Nobody shies away from talkingabout high blood pressure,
because what's the big deal,high blood pressure?
Until it's the same thing withmental health, we do need to
keep shouting it from therooftops because we need it.
Until it's that common, thereare going to be those people who
are afraid to speak out whenthey are struggling and are
(42:32):
going and therefore not going toget the help they need.
So there needs to be thepurpose.
It shouldn't just be talkingabout it because I want to talk
about, to fill my void, like I'mgoing to.
Like you said at the beginning,the oh, I'll share my story
because it gives me some sort ofsatisfaction.
No, that's not why we talkabout it.
We talk about it because if mesharing my story will allow you
(42:52):
to know that there's anotherfrom woman who's dealt with that
and that you're normal, you'reokay, then it still needs to be
done.
So there just needs to be thatpurpose involved.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's so important.
So tell us about yourorganization what's your
organization called, where wecan find out more information
and who your organization isgeared towards.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
So the organization is called the Drop of Light, our
website ispreventfromsuicideorg all
spelled like the words, and it'sreally geared towards everybody
and anybody.
There are two main parts of theorganization.
First is to start thisconversation around suicide.
(43:36):
The point of it is to raiseawareness of and prevent from
suicides, because ultimately,you don't hear about from people
killing themselves, and thereason you don't hear about that
is not because it doesn'thappen.
The reason you don't hear aboutit is because it's so hushed,
hushed and then the person whois suicidal and does get through
that feeling or does livethrough the suicide attempt
(43:59):
feels like, well, I must be theonly one and that is not true.
So the first part of theorganization is to help those
who struggle.
There are lists of mentalhealth organizations, both from
organizations and nationalUnited States organizations that
deal with suicide, pretty much,just that they specifically
(44:20):
will deal with suicide.
I try not to have organizationsthat deal with mental health in
general but aren't willing totouch suicide, because there's
no point of that.
I have a list of Rabbanim whoare knowledgeable in mental
health, because that isunfortunately.
There are so many Rabbanim whodon't have the knowledge and I
think that's one of the biggestturnoffs for a lot of from
(44:43):
people is I need to haveRabbanim in my life, right as a
from person.
A Rav is a crucial part of mylife.
But if I'm going to call theRav while I'm actively suicidal
but I also happen to be Nida andthe rough says, oh, your
husband can't touch you, heneeds to just explain to you
rationally why he can't touchyou.
(45:03):
That rough is very foolishbecause all that did was push me
closer to the edge.
Because, wait, what does thatmean?
Explain to me rationally.
There is no rationalizing withsomeone who's actively suicidal.
So it's very important thatrobunim have that knowledge and
it's important that when you'restruggling, you know which
(45:24):
robunim have that knowledge.
There are abundant that arelisted on the website, were all
spoken to on the phone.
They were vetted for theirtheir um knowledge and for their
sensitivity that they are ableto answer these questions.
They're able to give you thetime and the space and the
sensitivity you need and theyall agreed to be on the website,
like you don't need to worryabout calling them.
(45:44):
They know that they're listedthere.
They are happy to be listedthere and we do.
Eventually.
Long-term goal is we are hopingto do Rabunim training courses
to help broaden that list thatall Rabunim.
It shouldn't just be that youhave to call a specific mental
health should be all Rabunim.
Have at least basic training.
There's also information on thewebsite of different crisis
(46:07):
lines.
Every single country pretty muchhas a national crisis line that
you could text or call,depending on the country 24 7.
They are not jewish lines,however, I still highly highly
recommend using them.
I volunteer for the unitedstates text line 741 741.
(46:29):
You just text the word hello.
It's actually available inenglish and spanish.
Our line and I'm not the onlyfrom volunteer and there's
actually from supervisors likeand a supervisor has to be a
licensed professional like youcan end up with a from person.
Chances of it are slim, but wejust have resources and
information and could help getyou through whatever it is.
(46:51):
And a crisis line is not suicideonly.
It could be any crisis thatyou're in.
There are hundreds and hundredsof resources available if you
just reach out.
There's also a fascinatingcrisis line.
It's not a crisis line, it'scalled a warm line.
It's called Zaka, and Zaka isactually a from warm line.
(47:13):
It's run by from people andit's specifically for Shabbos
and Yom Kippur.
Do speak to your Rav beforeusing it, because it's not
crisis situation.
It's a warm line, which meansthat I need peer support to help
me prevent reaching crisisstage.
But they are specifically forShabbos and Yom Kippur.
When, as a from person, youneed someone to reach out to,
you need that peer support andyou can't call anybody because
(47:34):
it for Shabbos and Yom Tiv.
When, as a from person, youneed someone to reach out to,
you need that peer support andyou can't call anybody because
it's Shabbos that there arepeople who are there manning
that line.
The line they do have a Rav whoendorsed it, who approves it,
but obviously speak to your ownRav if you have any concerns.
And, as far as a crisis linegoes, if you're ever in crisis,
there is no need to ask a rough.
(47:55):
The Kuach Nefesh always takesprecedence.
The same way you wouldn'thesitate to call 911 if someone
had a heart attack, do nothesitate to call 911 or 988 for
a mental health crisis.
I will just know, on the topicof calling 911 for mental health
, people don't know this topicof calling 911 for mental health
(48:17):
.
People don't know this.
But if you call 911 for amental health situation, specify
that it is mental health.
Especially in the bigger cities, there are specially trained
units who will come out, who arethere to deal with mental
health specifically and justwith more sensitivity.
They probably won't come withtheir lights and sirens on so as
not to escalate the situationLike let them know and if
there's no gun in the house,specify that as well that there
(48:40):
is no gun in the house, becausethat could also just there's a
level of calmness that thepolice know that they could come
with, knowing that there is norisk on that level.
The other side of thisorganization is to help others,
is to start the conversation.
So there's all themisconceptions that people think
they know about suicide butthat they really don't.
(49:02):
One of the most common thingsyou'll hear about is how could
you talk about suicide?
It's going to plant the idea intheir head and that is wrong.
Studies have shown the exactopposite.
If you ask someone, are youthinking of killing yourself?
That is the best way to know ifthey are actually in danger or
not and it's not going to makethem decide hey, that's actually
(49:24):
a great idea.
The same way, if you tellsomeone you know, don't go and
climb that 70 foot tower, is itgoing to make them think, hey,
wait, that sounds like a lot offun, let's go try that out.
Unless their brain is onethat's wired to think that way.
You telling someone, hey, I'mworried about you, are you
having thoughts of suicide?
(49:45):
Isn't going to plant that ideathere, unless their brain is
already misfiring to do that.
So there's just, you know,different myth busters.
You know that people will beupset if you intervene and
therefore you can't intervene.
Like, yeah, they might be upsetin the moment because at that
point they were in so much painthat they really wanted to die,
(50:06):
but guess what, two months fromnow they'll be really grateful
that you reached out.
Or that if somebody is doingreally bad, then suddenly
they're really calm and justseemingly great.
If you see that someone's verycalm after they haven't been
doing well, you could think, oh,baruch, hashem, they're all
better now.
But in fact it might be theopposite, that now they've come
(50:30):
to terms with the fact that,okay, I have this plan, I'm
going to kill myself and this ishow I'm going to do it.
And I have plan and I'm calmbecause I know it's going to be
over soon.
Other things that the websitehas is how to recognize the
signs of suicidal ideation inothers, because that you know
that's very important.
Unless you live under a rock,unless you're the only person in
(50:52):
this world and if you'rehearing this then you're not
then you know people and thatmeans that you know people who
are at risk of suicide and learnthose signs.
Obviously, the biggest ones aretalking about wanting to die
but feeling no sense of purposeand, like I said, the
personality change suddenly verycalm is just as alarming as
(51:14):
suddenly very depressed.
There are obviously like thisis hard with teenagers with mood
swings.
I was having this discussionwith Bokrum at our Shabbos table
one week and they're like well,every Bokrum suddenly goes
through two weeks of justsleeping straight and it's yeah,
that might be accurate whereBokrum can go through.
You know teenagers can gothrough mood swings but it never
(51:37):
hurts to ask and also itteaches on the help others page
of the organization, teaches howto ask.
So you're worried about someone,right?
How do you have thatconversation?
It's a very intimidatingconversation to have and the
main, most important thing, orthe two most important things
number one have resourcesavailable before you start that
(51:59):
conversation.
Have a plan for what you'regoing to do when that person's
going to respond yes, I amsuicidal.
And number two is to know howto have that conversation.
Make sure it's in a calm and anon-judgmental way.
You don't want to ask in a wayof you're not going to do
anything stupid right?
Because nobody's going torespond to that.
Nobody's going to be honestwith that.
(52:20):
Instead, you could saysomething like you know, I've
noticed that you haven't beenresponding to any of my messages
lately.
I'm worried about you.
Sometimes, when people take astep back and don't interact
with people anymore, it'sbecause they're really not in a
good place and they maybe areeven having thoughts of killing
themselves.
Are you having any suchthoughts?
That's a way where the person'smost likely going to actually
(52:43):
say you know what?
Yes, I am having such thoughts.
Know your crisis lines.
Know the hospitals that dealwith mental health.
Be able to give those resourcesto somebody.
There's also what we call onthe crisis line laddering up If
somebody says they're thinkingabout suicide.
(53:04):
There are basically four stages.
There's passive suicidalideation, where I'm thinking
about suicide because I just Iwant to die, but that could just
mean that I don't want to wakeup tomorrow.
Or there are people who willnot put on their seatbelt when
they go in the car, because Ireally don't want to live
(53:24):
anymore, but I don't want toactively take my own life.
So let's put it in God's hands,I'm not going to put on my
seatbelt He'll make me get intoa car accident or just as a
coping mechanism, that well, ifI would be dead, then I would be
okay.
So I'll think about wanting tobe dead to make myself be okay.
So if it's at that level wherethere's no plan, there's nothing
(53:45):
, there's just I'm really not ina happy place right now.
Yes, the person needs help, butyou don't need to be calling 911
.
Once somebody says, yes, I'mhaving thoughts of suicide, the
follow-up question shouldusually be to the effect of you
know, thank you so much forsharing that must be so hard.
To be honest, I know it'sreally difficult to talk about.
(54:05):
Do you have a plan as to howyou would kill yourself?
If they say yes to that, younext want to find out if they
have what they need to carry outthat plan.
Someone has a plan to walk onthe train tracks, but there's no
trains for a hundred mileradius.
You really don't need to be tooconcerned because that plan
(54:26):
won't happen.
And when I say you don't needto be too concerned, I mean you
don't need to call 911 today.
You still need to make surethey get help, because those
thoughts, even if the plan isnot one they could implement
today, having those thoughts isobviously still not healthy.
And once you find out if theyhave what they need for a plan,
you want to find out when theyare thinking of carrying out
(54:49):
that plan.
And if it's within a 48 hourperiod, they need help instantly
.
You do not leave them alone.
Make sure to get safety plan inplace.
Get them to professional,whatever it is, if it's longer
than a 48 hour period,especially if it's something
like oh yeah, well, if I don'tget the job I'm interviewing for
(55:10):
in two weeks from now, thenI'll kill myself.
They need help.
They need help soon, even now,but not instantly, because
suicide is very often aninstantaneous feeling, meaning
if I'm saying I'm going to killmyself in three months from now,
in three months from now, thatfeeling will probably have
(55:33):
passed and changed multipletimes over.
So it's not that same level ofemergency as, yeah, I'm going to
be doing it tomorrow.
Again, anyone who gets to anylevel of this risk assessment,
having thoughts, plans, means ortimeframe.
If there is a yes to any ofthose questions, they need help.
(55:55):
It's a matter of do you need tobe taking them to the ER now or
could you wait until tomorrowfor them to get into their
therapist?
That's pretty much mostly whatI have on the website on the
organization right now.
Long-term goals are more, like Isaid, a bunim training course,
mikva lady training course.
(56:16):
You know, mikva ladies aretrained to recognize signs of
abuse and how to have thosethings.
What about signs of self harmand how to talk about that?
Those are also things to knowabout courses for school
yeshivas, yeshiva.
I had a friend who was a CTEENleader.
(56:36):
Right, I have a friend who wasa CTEEN leader and she was on a
CTEEN trip and a girl came toher and said so-and-so is
cutting and she did not knowwhat that meant.
And when she told me that, Iwas horrified.
How could you be in charge of agroup of dozens of teens and
not know what cutting means,that that means self-harm, that
is dangerous.
(56:57):
The fact that there are any highschools, yeshivas seminaries,
that don't have full-on suicideawareness training is so
dangerous, so dangerous.
Those are the years where themost suicide attempts take place
.
You need to be aware of thesigns of mental health.
(57:19):
You need to be aware of thesigns of suicide.
I'm actually very proud to saythat the Postville Yeshiva is
getting mental health first aidcertification before the next
Zman, because they haverecognized that fact that you
know what we are dealing withteenagers.
We need to know thisinformation to be able to help
(57:39):
our students, and it doesn'tmean that there's anything wrong
with our students, it meansthat we need that.
So that's right now where theorganization is holding.
It's still very much in itsinfancy, but we're hoping to
grow bigger and bigger over thenext however many years.
But that's where it is rightnow amazing.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
So, hadassah, I want to give you a bracha, actually
which?
is not how I usually end, but Iwant to give you a bracha that
actually you shouldn't need theorganization at all, amen, which
is the ultimate bracha.
That everyone should have allthe things that they need, um,
that they should feel minuchahsanath vashem in a really deep
way so that we don't need it.
But until the time that we arein that place, I really I wish
(58:25):
you a lot of hatzlacha and I'mreally happy with the fact that
we had this conversation.
It was real, it was authentic,it was something that is really,
really needed.
So, if you are listening tothis conversation and you are
worried, I'm going to just recapsome of the points that
Hadassah said.
Ask the tough question, askdirectly are you considering
suicide?
(58:45):
Listen to the person withoutjudgment.
Call 911 or your localemergency number, like Hatala,
you can also text TALK to 741741and you are going to actually
connect to someone who is atrained crisis counselor.
Do not leave a person who isconsidering suicide.
Stay with that person untilprofessional help arrives.
Try to remove any weapons,medications or anything else
(59:08):
that is potentially harmful.
And I want to also remind youthat there is another number
aside for 911, which is thesuicide and crisis lifeline,
which is just 9-8-8, so you canuse any of those tools while you
are getting help for the personwho needs the help.
But in Mirtz Hashem we shouldall be blessed that nobody
should need any of the toolsthat we got.
(59:30):
But if, in the event that youor someone else does need this
support, remember that there isno shame in getting the help
that you need, because youdeserve to have all your needs
met in an emotional and mentalhealth capacity.
Thank you so much, hadassah,for reaching us.
We are linking her website toHadassah to get peer support.
(59:56):
Or if you would like to talk toHadassah about bringing some of
her amazing tools andconnections to your community,
we will link that as well.
Thank you so much for thisamazing conversation.
This was really, reallyimportant and I hope that
everyone gained and grew as muchas I did.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Thank you so much for having me, rizki.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Rusty, thank you for joining me on this past hour.
I'm so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to spend
the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
at bodysoulscom Remember, that'stwo S's.
(01:00:36):
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing or if you
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
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