May 20, 2024 • 51 mins
Rivky Boyarsky and Dr. Sarah Markowitz, co-author of "Kosher ADHD," sit down for a heart-to-heart on the community-specific details of managing ADHD within the framework of our frum lifestyle. This episode blends personal narratives and professional insight, this episode gives individuals, parents, and educators tools and insight to navigate ADHD while embracing Torah values and hashkafic principles.
This groundbreaking book can be used both for neurotypical individuals and those with ADHD. Dr Markowitz shares the hurdles and hopes of finding the right support for kids with ADHD, and shines a light on the importance of community engagement. This conversation isn't just for parents; it's for educators, healthcare providers, and anyone who believes in nurturing each unique soul in our community. Tune in to "Bodies and Souls" for an episode that doesn't just speak to the mind but also resonates deeply with the heart.
To sponsor an episode of Bodies & Souls, email us at
info@bodiessouls.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good morning and welcome to Bodies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
I am so excited to talk to youabout the topic of conversation
today.
Today we're talking about ADHDand the from community.
This is so important.
I know so many adults who arediagnosed later in life with
ADHD, so many adults who arestruggling with ADHD-like
(00:27):
symptoms, so many educators whoare struggling with ADHD in
their classrooms and so manyparents who are challenged by
children who do have ADHD in thefirm community.
We live in a firm society andit's very easy to access books
that are not firm-specific, anda lot of the tools and tricks
don't work in the lifestyle thatwe are living, and so it's very
(00:50):
important that we havehashgafically aligned and torah
aligned tools so that we can bethe best version of ourselves
and we can help our children andour students be the best
version of themselves.
Today I have with us drmarkowitz, who is one of the two
authors of a book called kosheradhd.
We're going to discuss how ADHDmanifests itself.
We are going to discuss whythis book was so important to
(01:11):
the Firm community.
We're going to discuss tools,tips and tricks that we can
implement into our lives, andwe're going to unravel this very
, very important topic.
So, without further ado, here'sDr Markowitz topic.
So, without further ado, here'sDr Markowitz.
Good morning and welcome toBodies and Souls.
(01:33):
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
Today I have Dr Sarah Markowitzhere with us.
Dr Markowitz is I'm going tojust call you Sarah for the rest
of the podcast, but she is adirector of an intensive
outpatient program for Jewishwomen in Muncie, which is
currently where she is as we'redoing the interview.
She's also a Rebetzin inFairlawn, new Jersey, and she is
the author of a book which isgoing to be the topic that we're
really delving into today,called Kosher ADHD.
(01:57):
The book is available on Amazonand really at all kosher
retailers.
So I was just telling DrMarkowitz that I had actually
bought the book before we hadconnected, because I was okay,
this is really cool.
Like we don't have a lot ofbooks that are, you know, jewish
specific.
We have like mikvah and OCD,but this this seemed like
something that would be reallyreally great for so many parents
(02:19):
and educators out there.
So I bought the book and I'mreally excited that we are going
to discuss ADHD in the Jewishworld.
So before we start, can youjust tell us a little bit more
about yourself and what broughtyou to the work that you're
doing now.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Sure, thank you so much for having me so.
Originally from Brooklyn, newYork, and in my earlier years I
was very much a highly energeticchild, still highly energetic
as an adult, but it's lessintrusive, you know, because my
teachers don't have to put upwith all the intrusions, and I
(02:55):
am really passionate aboutworking with the Jewish
community.
And when I was in college I wasfiguring out where I wanted to
place my energies next and I wasdoing some informal education
and realized that I really wantto be able to help in a way and
(03:16):
bring some more evidence-basedwork Things that have proven to
be effective and meaningful evenand to see how that can help
people grow.
And so I got my PhD in clinicalpsych.
People grow, and so I got myPhD in clinical psych.
I actually determined that Iwanted to do this while I was in
Israel with my husband he waslearning in Kol El then that's
where I met Dr Chesner, butwe'll come back to that in a
moment Got my PhD in FairleighDickinson University.
(03:36):
I've been working at AchieveBehavioral Health.
I used to be the head of thegroups.
Now I find the power ofcommunity.
So group work, all grouptherapy, and just working as a
chabura.
I find it to be extremelymeaningful.
There's a lot that we can dowith the encouragement and
accountability of other peopleand the shared wisdom, and I'm
(03:58):
the founding director of anintensive outpatient program for
Jewish women, which really cameout of my love of group work
and program development andbringing things to the community
.
Work under Dr Schechter andwithin Muncie really helped
develop that larger programservicing women who need more
and helping them get back intolife.
And in the much work that I'vedone in the group work, I
(04:22):
started doing a lot of ADHD work, like with people and kids and
family members of individualswho had ADHD.
I used done in the group work.
I started doing a lot of ADHDwork, like with people and kids
and family members ofindividuals who had ADHD.
I used to run a group.
It was so much fun.
I think I had a co-leader whodid not have ADHD with me, so I
was a good yin-yang and I foundit to be so meaningful, so
effective.
And the work that I did withkids with ADHD realized that a
lot of the parents have it too,so it's not so easy to set up a
(04:44):
system that would be helpfulKids with ADHD.
So that is how I realized thatwe have to be working with
parents and help them more.
Fast forward a few years where Iwasn't focusing on this as much
.
Dr Tresner called me from EretzYisrael and he said Sarah, we
have to write a book about ADHDin the Jewish community.
And I said no, because myhusband is a Rav Baruch Hashem.
(05:07):
We have a wonderful community.
I have my five daughters andfull-time work and I thought
that was crazy.
And he said I understand thatyou're busy, but there's a
tremendous need in the Jewishcommunity.
And I actually had thought abouta number of meetings that my
husband had had in the last twoweeks with people in the
community where there were kidswith ADHD who were literally at
(05:32):
this time of year right, we'rein March not even sure if their
children were going to be in ayeshiva.
Right, they weren't and it wasbreaking down the whole family.
It was so much energy and Ireally understood through Dr
Tresner.
He said we've been doing thiswork in Israel.
He is doing this for 32 years.
(05:52):
He's directed programs andstarted schools.
There's so much he's done.
And he's like I have wisdom andwe got to bring it.
And so I caved and I did itbecause I really believe that it
is something that is meaningful.
Here we are.
We see that the need forhelping Jews understand the
cultural impact of what ADHDlooks like in the Jewish
(06:16):
community.
That is what we have.
We brought it out and it's beenpretty well received.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
That is why that's what I wrote so I have a
two-pronged question for you.
The first one is, from my ownexperience you know researching
adhd and living with you knowrelatives with adhd.
I think a lot of our leaders,like people in leadership
positions, definitely do haveadhd.
This is specific to the jewishcommunity because I work outside
(06:43):
the jewish community.
This is very Jewish communityspecific.
Even listening to like when Iread your bio just now, I was
like, okay, she for sure hasADHD.
She's all over the place, likeshe's doing millions and
millions of projects.
Like then you were like, yeah,with my own ADHD, and I was like
, okay, that makes sense, that'swhy you're doing all these
things and it's very interesting, like I see like that parallel
and it is.
It is Jewish community specificthat our leaders actually
(07:07):
almost, almost all have, youknow, some sort of like ADHD
type of manifestation.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Temperament, as we like to say, or neurological
temperament, like a brainprobably yeah, something.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Um, but the second part is other than that.
What would make a booknecessary specifically for the
jewish community?
Like where would adhd specific?
Like I know we talk a lot aboutocd and mikvah and religious
ocd.
Okay, so I understand that hasto be a book specific for our
community.
Marriages with you know,whatever fine, but why adhd and
the?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
jewish.
Amazing question, right, andwhat makes it kosher adhd?
First, adhd is a pretty much amisnomer, like attention deficit
.
Hyperactivity disorder is whatit's called.
So what does that even mean?
So a person has trouble with,like, paying attention.
Does it mean that they havetrouble and they're like
hyperactive and impulsivity?
(08:05):
What does that actually looklike Really?
The more we understand it, it'san issue of executive
functioning, and executivefunctions is like the CEO of the
brain that really helps aperson be able to put the brakes
on certain things.
My thoughts are not jumpingfrom one thing to the next.
I'm not looking at the shiniestlight.
I'm able to have an emotion andI don't have to act on it.
I have more self-control, right, and I have a goal that I want
(08:29):
to get to and I can put thebrakes on to get there.
I can follow through, I can usemy energy in a methodical way.
I can prioritize.
There are so many components ofwhat ADHD is, just understanding
that there is a brain,temperament, the prefrontal
cortex.
I'm not going to get into theboring stuff, even though I
happen to find it fascinating,right, but there's a part of the
(08:52):
brain that is different inpeople with ADHD, and so because
that part of the brain looksdifferent, right, it doesn't
mean that it's always going tobe a problem, but to be a Jew,
you need executive functioning,to be able to sit down and daven
.
First you need to be able tosit, then you need to be able to
(09:14):
understand, like forwardthinking, or things that are
beyond what's just in front ofyour face.
We know a lot of impulse.
It means that I am like, inthis moment I don't have a sense
of time.
Right, time blindness issomething that you're just like
hello, I told you to be here atthis time and they're totally
focused on you but have no ideawhat's coming next.
Right, so you could be in thismoment, but you don't know that
(09:36):
there's a Hashem I'm speaking to, or sitting and learning, right
, we're not being chutzpahed,right?
Or these are all areas that tobe a firm jew, this is an
expectation to be a woman, right?
Let's say, I have trouble beingorganized.
That's part of it.
Just to be a jewish woman andtake care of your children and
(09:57):
have a job, and yeah, that's alot.
But then you want to be on topof your shoes if you already
have trouble, so that you'regoing to be last minute inviting
people.
If you're inviting anyone, thenyou have to be on top of your
shoes.
If you already have trouble sothat you're going to be last
minute inviting people, ifyou're inviting anyone, then you
have to be on top the amount ofthings that you need to be on
top of.
So what we're saying is, giventhe nature of the struggles that
a person, or just the way thatthe brain is set up, they're
going to have certain challengesthat are manifest in the Jewish
(10:19):
community and our school systemsometimes, or even the homes.
Our expectations of our childto sit at the Shabbos table, if
we know that they're having thisissue and we're asking them to
help them, either do it well,right or hold them accountable
at the level they can so thatthey can slowly move forward in
what they're doing.
It's not intentional.
(10:52):
No one's making like a speechand saying, mom, I hate Judaism,
it's like I can't sit.
We're the ones telling themwell, you can't sit through
davening, like you aren't from,like we're expecting you to sit
for 45 minutes or an hour andthen you make a comment to your
teacher who's not getting youright.
(11:12):
Of course it's good to learn,but the expectation, what we're
asking them to do is is beyondwhat is available, and so we
have to understand this and andset them up in the way the book
is predicated on, this beautifulpiece of Torah, that the
difference between, and thesimilarities between, an Esav
and a David right, that both ofthem are called Admoni and that
(11:37):
Esav he is known, he's all hislike actions.
They're like five verbs in arow he's eating's, drinking,
when, when he's selling thebachorah, and david is also.
When shmua goes to find david,it's he has.
There's a magic that says thathe's an admoni and we can't take
him to be our leader because hereminds us of asav.
(11:58):
But the difference is is thatdavid is passionate, he
wrotehillim, he's the mostexpressive.
We want to be able to have ourchildren be like a David
HaMelech.
But if we have a certainneurological temperament,
bio-basis, and then we have anenvironment that is expecting
someone to be Yaakov Yosef youknow, ishtam Yosef, right, like
(12:23):
he's sitting and learning, thenwe might be set up for
disappointment.
But if we set him up to be awarrior, to be a Jewish leader,
to express himself, then we canhave a David.
And so I think that is whatwe're trying to understand, that
just to understand really whatADHD is and to see where it's
(12:44):
going to manifest and how toapproach it in a very meaningful
way, using some unique ways ofapplying some principles that
are helpful with ADHD in generaland, I think, really helping
people to tap into thesesuperpowers.
Like you're saying, if you'renot broken by the time you're an
adult, you'll be a great leaderIf you can find the right
(13:05):
compensatory skills, right, ifyour spouse helps you.
But if your spouse is tellingyou, oh, why aren't you going to
Davin?
But we know that as someone, itdoesn't mean that they can't.
But someone who has ADHD mighthave trouble going to sleep at
night and waking up.
Now if you say, oh, my spousehas trouble waking up and you're
constantly telling you know new, you didn't get a firminion
(13:25):
like what's your problem?
And you think I have a schluband he thinks he's like a schlub
right, like, oh, nebuchadnezzaron me and him, and then you're
his mom and that's never goodfor the marriage.
But let's say he's someone whohas adhd and he realizes I need
more accountability.
I'm gonna ask my wife if sheminds doing that by asking, and
then the person says yes, now hetakes ownership, she is allowed
(13:49):
to do it right, like it's not.
I'm reminding you and they'resaying it's not that I'm a bad
person or that I don't loveJudaism or that I don't want to
go to heaven.
It's very difficult for me toget there.
So I need to take ownershipthat it's hard.
What's going to help me do this?
To take ownership that it'shard.
What's going to help me do this?
And that is the difference.
And this is big.
This is big for Shalom Bias,this is big for the home, this
(14:10):
is big for how we see ourchildren and to have more
compassion, understanding,patience and really become the
wise guys to help with thechenech, to help them become a
davra melech.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I love that no-transcript younger.
(14:53):
And then you know I've heardthis from mothers again and
again that they went to theirpediatrician and they're like,
oh, we don't actually diagnoseADHD until eight years old.
Eight years old seems very,very late to get all of the
early intervention and the toolsand the tricks.
And by then already theteachers are already saying oh,
you didn't hop out of base,you're moving in your seat,
you're not a good kid, and theyalready have this relationship
(15:13):
with school.
Eight seems extremely late.
So before we even get into thediscussion about how this
presents in the community andwhat are the tools and the
tricks, et cetera, et cetera,let's first talk about what is
ADHD, how it presents and howwould someone listening go about
getting a diagnosis either fortheir children or for themselves
(15:34):
, or for their spouse or forsomeone that you know they love
and care about?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Amazing, wonderful question and important step back
.
So, as I said, it's aneurological temperament.
People the the part of thebrain looks different and every
child will have a differentpresentation.
Right, and we can break it downinto many, many different parts
of executive functioning.
(15:59):
So, like we said that, theability to put the brakes on
them like self-control, but thatwill manifest in a lot of areas
.
So even their brain is jumpingfrom one thing to the next, it's
harder for them to sit.
They get bored more easily.
The brain needs a higher levelof stimulation.
So what other kids can sitaround and do they're having
(16:23):
trouble doing right?
Again, if you ask a certain kiddon't eat before davening, you
know, like, whatever it is, evenif it's five minutes and you're
noticing this child is likereally struggling.
Now again, maybe he's havingsome sensory issues, maybe he's
having expressive.
We can't always know exactlywhat it is, but you want to have
(16:44):
a sense of.
These are certain areas.
Can they sustain attention?
How do they do when they shiftattention?
What's their cognitiveflexibility like?
Do they follow through?
Are they able to organize theirmaterials?
Do they keep on losingeverything?
Now, a lot of kids lose stuff,right, but this is a special
type.
When the kid comes home and youhave certain certain kids.
I would definitely like this asa kid, right?
(17:05):
It's like, oh, my mom gave me aclementine three weeks ago and
it's still in my knapsack, right?
So so everyone will say, ohwell, a boy is like this and uh,
this girl.
But that's not the case.
The case is is that if you havea child who could, it could even
manifest sometimes in havingtrouble with reading
comprehension, the ability tobreak steps down, working memory
(17:27):
is a significant piece.
I'll end with this and thenjust say like okay, you know,
this is like the gist of it.
So everyone knows attention,impulsive, right.
They react without thinking.
They have a hard time learningfrom consequences Could be
harder.
So you have to set up theenvironment.
Everything has to be set upwith immediate consequences.
Most people are like why do youneed to reward them more?
They don't learn frompunishment as much.
(17:47):
Really they don't, but it'staken away.
They learn, their brain isturned on by things that
stimulate and they look forwardto Ask me why.
That's just how it works.
Trial and error.
You see what's effective,what's not effective.
Working memory.
I struggle tremendously with myworking memory, like I'm
holding in the moment I have awhiteboard right next to me here
at work, so if I writesomething down.
(18:09):
So what would you tell your kidin the morning If you want your
kids to get ready, what aresome things that you would tell
your kids to do?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
negovasser, brush your teeth, get dressed.
Let's go down brachis, come onamazing.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Okay, kid with adhd, the minute that you say the
first thing, that's great,negovasser.
Now you said go, brush yourteeth.
You literally imagine taking aneraser, you erase, negovasser,
and all they know is brush yourteeth.
So why didn't they do that?
They can't hold on to it.
It's a working memory, it'swhatever I can hold in the
moment that I need to apply.
If it's not written down andbroken down in steps, some kids
(18:46):
even in the book it says itbreaks down that you need
something called a WOMAC, aworking memory cue, right,
activation cue.
If it doesn't say what thereneeds to do with a clear thing,
I set an alarm for myself.
If it doesn't tell me what Ineed to do, I'm just like, eh,
but otherwise it will say calldoctor for this child, right, I
have to say which doctor.
(19:07):
I might get specific.
I might have like 3,000 alarmsthat I never deleted on my phone
.
But these are all things that ifa child doesn't know, and
sometimes breaking down skills,so they're even watching the
TLC9, just to tell them watchthe TLC9, but if they can't
figure out all the steps, itmight be hard for them.
This is all part of areas thatare more difficult.
So when do you take them?
You're already taking cues fromso early intervention.
(19:30):
That might not be somethingthat helps.
They will need to set up thingsin their environment.
If you're finding that theyneed a lot of like again, these
working memory cues, thatthey're having a hard time
sitting in class, that they needextra prompts to get them going
and to really be able to focus,that they get focused when
things are very interesting, allthese things.
So then people could either goto a pediatrician If you're
seeing that they're havingtrouble in school, you want to
(19:52):
learn about this so much and youwant to advocate on behalf of
your child.
What are things that are goingto help?
Because the teachers want to dowell, they can't If they.
We always say with children ifthey could do better, they would
do better.
This is Ross's dream.
He says this all the time.
Kids want to do well, adultswant to do well.
It's more complicated becausewe have more life under our
belts, but we all want to dowell.
Teachers want to do well.
(20:13):
It's not always sustainable.
So you have the best advocate.
You need to learn about it Now.
That doesn't mean so somepeople will say, okay, so I go
to my pediatrician.
Pills are not skills, so don'tbe surprised.
Pills, though, might be reallyhelpful.
Why?
Because it's a very neurogenic.
It's the neurological part ofthe brain.
It's just like with the thyroid.
It helps get you back up tospeed.
This can help, but if someonetakes a pill and it helps them
(20:36):
focus, yeah, and it tends more.
So it's great if you need todrive, but if you're focusing on
the wrong thing, that's not sohelpful.
So you need that and you alsoneed a list of the things that
you need to be doing that you'veprioritized.
Right Like it's morecomplicated, but there's so many
different executive functioningskills that people can be
teaching that, the more you getthat, you can teach your child
(20:56):
help systems at home.
And guess what?
I am not, so my executivefunctioning is a very special
thing.
Again, it could be a superpower, except when it's not.
And thank God, as Dr RussellBarkley says, thank God for the
compassion of everyone aroundyou that helps.
The difference between a childwho's going to succeed and not
is the compassion of thosearound them, which means you
(21:17):
need a lot of support, and ifyou're not great with executive
functioning, this is where youget a chabrusa.
This is where you get supportand you help yourself, because
there are some people in lifewho are really great at
executive functioning butthey're not so creative, right,
meaning it's a currency.
Guys, let's all figure out howto help each other.
You have the friends who alwaysremind you about carpool.
(21:38):
Okay, so, like great, you'llmake them an extra babka, like
whatever.
However, we can get thesesystems to work, but we're going
to have to set them up in theright way so you can do that.
Sometimes they need, you know,certain more extensive testing,
or they might need a coach, likean executive coach, depending
on what the school can offer,depending on what you know.
So you go to all thesedifferent ways, but some people
(22:01):
go to a developmentalpediatrician.
By the way, this could be justa own webinar, like podcast, on
just you know, how do you goabout the process of thinking
about help for your child,because there's so many
different pathways of how youcan get help and what is really
difficult.
And this is where we want toalso help the community with.
You know kosher-adhdcom, but wewant to be able to offer more
(22:24):
resources and help the communitycome together to really tackle
this in a more methodical way,because there are some resources
out there, but not everyoneknows who to go to, what to go
to, and you feel like you arebleeding resources, which you
really are, and you know to be aparent, baruch hashem, if
there's a bracha that you knowto be a parent, baruch hashem,
if there's a bracha that we getto be a parent of a child with
adhd, it will require more.
(22:46):
It will require more of yourtime and it will require more of
your money.
Right now.
Right, if we, if we, we got tofigure this out and also like
that's a stira, because if itrequires more of your time, then
you're not going to have lesstime to make the money that you
need.
But you know, if we don't takecare of it now, it's going to
blow up in our face laterbecause as demands get greater
(23:10):
in life, that's why certainwomen maybe they're not
impulsive or hyperactive, butthe inattentive type they can
get through school, they're notbothering anyone.
So they come and then they're amother and then they have all
these things to deal with.
They didn't even know they haveADHD, they never treated it,
they don't even know what couldhelp them.
Now they just feel like they'rea failure, right, like it's not
helping anybody.
And then you feel bad aboutyourself, you're depressed,
(23:31):
you're anxious, you're feelingguilty.
The resources are going to beso much more right.
The family is going to besuffering more if you just would
get help or a child who's notuntreated ADHD right or is
kicked out of systems If theparent doesn't have the time and
resources and bandwidth tosupport them.
It's going to cost so much morelater.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So as a college teacher, I also want to mention
one other thing is that Isometimes see ADHD that was
diagnosed and not well treatedin kids actually cause a lot of
relationship disruptions andlike I don't think people
realize that it also has that.
You know, we want our kids tohave good and healthy marriage
and, like you said, yes, but Ialso think, like I think there's
(24:14):
a little bit of a hold back forparents who are dealing with
actually not just ADHD but anychallenge with their children.
There's no central space forresources, like it's really
great that you have theresources, but until someone's
listening to this podcast orreaching out to you agreed,
there's no access to like well,what do I do?
So everyone talks to theirfriends, their neighbors,
(24:34):
they're waiting for the bus,they're doing carpool, they're
talking and they're doing, Idon't know, whatever was
advertised in the army, you know, like for lack of a better, you
know, and then you try it andyou say, okay, how long do I try
it for to give it a real go?
I try it for six months, I tryit for three months and then
you're hemorrhaging money andthen you have to do that again
because that wasn't the rightfit.
So I think my dream and I've hadkids in the system for almost
(24:57):
15 years now my dream would bethat there would be some sort of
centralized space where we canjust say okay, my kid is
struggling with priya, what dowe do?
Who do we talk to?
Here's a consult, here's areferral, go ahead, go.
And that would be like ideal,because I'm listening to you and
I'm like I don't even know whothese things are.
I didn't know that there waslike a special pediatrician for
(25:17):
people who are neurodiverse orlike.
I didn't even know that was a.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I would like to say so.
One of my coping skills, andsomething I like to do for fun,
is programmatic development andhow to help the community.
So one of the things that Ispeak about with this, with Dr
Chesner, right, is this notionof out of the box educational
consultation, right?
Or just that we need, or even,like a Jewish, what is it called
?
Like child study team?
(25:43):
Right, we have this thing wherethey come, and we're able to do
this because sometimes theneuropsych testing is not
adequate.
Or you know, someone told merecently that they took their
child for free neuropsychtesting.
I got like the Child MindInstitute you sign up, it's
research meet, whatever it islike it works for some people,
or a healthy brain network, andthen the child went.
(26:05):
Of course, sometimes the childcould be oppositional.
I want to get to therelationship piece.
But if the child is anxious anddoesn't know how to do certain
things and you're asking aperson to do what's expected and
they don't know how to do it,then they're going to look
oppositional, right.
And so someone said, oh, canyou do this?
And this child's they.
They got on the wait list forso long and they finally got
(26:25):
this and the child and the childsaid to the people I don't want
to do it.
And the people said, well, wecan't force him to do it.
And you're like, are youworking?
And then the the accessibilitypart is like till the parents
and I followed up and just Iwould say like, oh gosh, you
would call these people back andsay, of course, this child is
struggling with this type ofthing.
(26:46):
Obviously they're going to sayno, like what is your process?
Give me another date, or let'stry and incentivize the child
right after, like there's somuch we could do, but even small
things.
It's just like who is guidingpeople right through this
process?
And it's amazing.
Again, you gotta I always saylike top down and bottom up, we
gotta be addressing this and I'mproud that Dr Jezner and I are
(27:10):
trying and like also, thereception from the community is
extraordinary, but it's aslimited as, however we get the
word out, whoever goes to abookstore, maybe the bookstore
doesn't have it, I don't know.
All these accessibility issomething that you know.
The more we can get as manyresources and I think what
you're saying is really sovaluable and so important just
to continue to think how do weget people to have access to
(27:32):
this information, to understand,to learn, so we can best help
people, not have to feel likeyou know, 20 years later I
finally got the information.
Why does it have to be withsuch agmas nefesh?
And again, to be honest, as aparent who feels like I really
know a lot sometimes, a lot oftimes, I don't actually, I
really, really don't ask myhusband he's so kind to me
(27:53):
anyway but because he's just atzaddik, but there's a lot of
times I don't.
I just say I do that I have alot of resources and wisdom in
the field and still couldn'tfigure out navigating certain
things with one of our childrenand it took years and tears, so
much.
And so sometimes people don'treally hear what we're saying
(28:17):
because, until it's like a pointof desperation, they don't want
to look at the reality ofthings.
The thing is, when it comes toadhd, if you could look at the
reality, it could be not as bad.
Yes, it's acknowledging, but weall have different temperaments
, we all have differentpersonality types.
This kid is quiet, this kid islouder, this kid is whatever,
like okay, so we're gonna notignore it, like let's look and
(28:39):
help and and and guide them andand work with them, the more
people can look at the systemand you know we could, we could,
we could do this, we reallycould do it, and we're hoping
that we can really be helpingpeople develop a real group of
like I want the parents, I wantthere to be some crowds like I
would like it to be, that wedevelop a whole and not just
(29:01):
parents, adults with adhd.
With ADHD, as we're all gettingready for Pesach and as we're,
you know, like thisaccountability, this, whatever
it is like things are difficult.
Let's, let's grow together,let's get access, let's be part
of a community who wants totackle this.
So every person really matters.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
We have a WhatsApp for moms with kids who have ADHD
.
It's not a super active WhatsApp, but every once in a while
there's resources shared and Ithink it's a really it's really
nice.
It's not in any way, you know,complete, like I remember when,
you know, I brought up Daphneand Chill, which was a great
example, and I'm like this is astruggle, like what do you guys
(29:37):
do?
And there was radio silence andI think that there was like a
group of parents who were likepushing their kids to do it
anyways, and a group of parentswere like, yeah, whatever.
And so that's another part thatI wonder if you would address
is we're adjusting things for,you know, our kid who's
struggling, or kid isneurodiverse in other ways, and
then the other kids like well,if he gets the prizes, I want
(29:57):
the prizes.
If he doesn't have to the shop,people what?
And then your whole, you know,everything gets disrupted.
So it's like a fine balancehere of the expectations that we
have for kids who are notstruggling, the expectations
that we have as we adjust to youknow.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Ah, you said a few questions.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh, I said so much because I'm like we can talk
about this for like four parts.
Oh, I want to bring it up right.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So much because I'm like we can talk about this for
like four parts.
I want to bring it down right.
So we actually just ran like apre-Purim webinar, for example.
Right, and it's interestingbecause a lot of people are like
Purim is the easiest thing,like okay, so like he's a little
whatever.
It is right.
But think about davening Pointis, on the one hand, you're
saying like some people are justlike no, I'm holding them
accountable, we cannot modifyexpectations in other people.
(30:40):
Right, they're saying, eh,what's the big deal?
But the what's the big deal?
We're not saying it's, first ofall, we're not all or nothing,
we're not black and white.
I really recommend dialecticalthinking.
So I can, you know, it could belike he's having a hard time
and he can do better, like it'shard for him now and there's
what to do when you're holdingboth and that creates a new
reality.
(31:00):
But for what we say is and thenI'm going to answer the part
about the siblings and how doyou deal with that?
Because I think these are twoextremely, extremely important
parts.
So, number one and he talksabout this in the book Dr Chesna
breaks this down in a lot ofvery specific ways and there's a
video actually happens to behis son.
Shia is in the army now in theIDF and he is fighting.
(31:21):
He's amazing.
We're in Israel for like fiveseconds and we did this video.
Really it was very brief tripand we had done like a video
like the two hours that we hadbefore I ran to the airport and
it shows what it looks like fora kid to daven and the Shabbos
video.
So what we're saying is what isthis specific child up to?
What can they do?
Can they do 20 minutes ofdavening?
(31:42):
And you need to be veryspecific.
So you have to do smarkles andyou break it down and you say
what are they up to?
What can they do now?
And now let's explain to themthis is what they are capable.
You want to see that they do alittle bit more.
You break it down, you givethem like, okay, you could come
in for lachadodi.
You tell them exactly what theyneed to do.
You already know, lachadodi,you hold your sitter.
You're going to sing it loudwhen you.
(32:04):
Then you're going to leave,you're going to leave and if you
leave, I'm going to give youthis type of thing and then
you're going to come right andwe are going to work and then
we're going to build up more,and the more child builds, they
see that they can do it.
We often we go to the either oryou know, either hold them
accountable, because it's toomuch brain power to figure it
out, and if you need the supportfrom others, so get the support
(32:24):
, but eventually you're going tolearn these internal principles
that you use to do this.
You might not know what is himjust like being just a kid, or
her just being whatever it isright and like, what are they
really up to?
And speak to your rev aboutlisten, I think this is what's
going on.
They'll say listen, these arethe parts of the happening that
are most important that, like inthe beginning, hit these main
(32:50):
points.
Make sure he makes a ashray,shema, right, you focus on them.
This is what they could do, butthey might not be able to pay
attention all of the words, soI'd, rather than focus on some,
but ask the Rav and so so numberone is you got to know what
they're up to and then you gotto make smart goals and and
reward.
There's like we break it downreally, really specifically and
you'll build on more becauseotherwise you're making them
stay.
They don't even get the positivepart because you're never going
(33:12):
to find something good aboutwhat they're doing.
Because I like to say idf,intensity, duration, frequency
progress has to be broken down.
My father done right.
Progress has to be broken down.
If the things that he's doingare bad, you are never going to
find if they're really yellingwhen their siblings are around,
right, you're never going tothink that they're doing
anything good because there's somuch that's going wrong.
(33:34):
You're not going to ever rewardthem for doing a little bit
less of that, but we need to beable to do that.
But you need to be able toexplain to your siblings.
So sometimes you're going to getan award, you have a bag of
toys that randomly in a closetthat you're going to pull out
and you do, and sometimes it'syou're going to say to your
children listen, it's okay,people operate differently.
You get these special things.
(33:54):
You're able to do this, believeme.
They get to see that this childprobably has a peckle off.
That is not so easy and theycan understand that.
But you can say look at allthese amazing things and these
are things and you're differentin these ways and be mindful
that it could be stressful to bea sibling.
Sometimes you don't want tomake it like, oh, you never hunt
them, our problem child, right?
We're super mindful, but ittakes a lot of shifting and
(34:19):
understanding and operatingdifferently.
And, like I'm a fast pacedperson, I slow down in my home,
like in order to really give mykids who have ADHD what they
need.
I got to have a different tempo, so when I'm working I want to
have my tempo, but other times Ihave to learn that I need to
change along with them.
And it's a growth process,right?
(34:40):
What do you do?
I'm sure you have so manypodcasts and we talk about
growth.
This is what we do as Jews.
That's the culture at ADHD,that we're growth oriented and
it's a lifelong process ofthings that we can do.
And it's okay to be the parentsand it's okay to teach your kids
that sometimes it's differentand that they operate
differently.
And then in your Mavatar,you'll teach them.
(35:03):
Sometimes it won't have to be aconcrete, tangible thing.
It will be you saying, like you, oh my gosh, I know how hard it
is for you to sit, and that yousat down and the way that you
sang it enhanced this experienceso much.
Or, like I know, your Tzvilawas like that was like wow.
And these are things we have tothink about.
We have to think about a childwho isn't really stagging in the
(35:29):
base medrash but loves to davenand be about spiela.
If they're 15 and we say, no,you can't be the bouts you look,
because we think you're a poorrole model because you're not
learning right in the basemedrash that that is really that
would be so upsetting, becausenow you have this kid who has so
much to offer they can't dothey could do chassa, they could
do let's.
We gotta think out of the box.
And if you have this kid whohas so much to offer they can't
do they could do, they could dolet's, we got to think out of
the box.
And if you have troublethinking out of the box, believe
(35:50):
me, you have a neighbor thatdoes know how.
You know we'll find the timeand we could do this.
Like we.
We could tackle it one, onepiece at a time.
One piece at a time.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I love that and in a way I think that when life was a
little less standardized, like,kids like this were appreciated
maybe a little bit more,because they were the kids who
rallied everyone in the shtetland they got things done and
right.
And then we're like guess what?
You got to stay in school for12 years and that's just how it
is.
Sorry, buddy.
So I think in a way these kidsmiss a little bit.
I want to go back one moresecond.
(36:22):
We went like I asked a littlebit about the diagnosis, but we
didn't actually talk about it.
Do you always need to do aneuropsych eval in order to get
a diagnosis for adhd?
And what about an adult?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
an adult also doesn't need to do it a neuropsych eval
gives you so much moreinformation and, again, no one
should think that they are abucky in um, that they're an
expert in all these areas.
After this meaning andunderstanding the difference
between a neusych rate, we're ata point where, like, a
self-report measure is somethingthat people use, that they like
get a very extensive historythat they find out what was
(36:54):
going on.
People have had to have hadcertain symptoms, you know
certain areas of challenges fromwhen they were much younger.
This is something that had tobe there from before.
Adult ADHD might manifestdifferently.
These are things that you canfind online, even, but then you
go to a doctor or you go to apsychiatrist.
A psychiatrist can give you thediagnosis.
Sometimes psychologists cangive a diagnosis.
(37:16):
You don't always needmedication.
Not every person is going towork with.
Some people they might not needa stimulant because they also
have a lot of anxiety.
So there's other types ofmedications that can help with
ADHD, but if it pipes up theiranxiety, like we're mindful of
these things and again, somepeople are so adamant against it
and some people are not like Ithink that it is something that
(37:37):
really has proven to be helpfulfor some kids really a lot, but
seek your own information toreally find out about this and
just remember that it's a wholeshift in your attitude about
life.
It's really take the time tounderstand it and when you think
you understand that, you alsomight not understand it.
And sometimes I understand that, oh, this is my ADHD and it
(37:59):
doesn't make me okay.
I'm still disappointed orannoyed that I need to ask a
friend to talk through something, because that's how my brain
really works through ideas morethan writing it, more than
thinking through myself.
That's annoying.
I'm going to call you everytime I need to think through
some big idea.
You know that's a lot of favorsthat I need to do in order to
(38:20):
get stuff done and that doesn'tfeel good.
But in the end of the day, if Iknow I can set myself up the
right way and I know what I haveto offer and what will help me
succeed and the different waysof doing things, sorry.
So again, I think adults alsothere are psychiatrists or
therapists that they can get adiagnosis and it can be really
(38:40):
helpful.
Sometimes people want aneuropsych eval because that
gives them a whole learningprofile on a child.
It's much more extensive thanjust understanding and sometimes
we understand that learning itcould be impacted.
A kid could have OCD and that'sthe reason why their processing
speed is a little bit slower,or working memory, or it could
be ADHD, or it could be alearning challenge, or it could
just be that this kid is likenot the most book smart person,
(39:04):
but they have multipleintelligences.
There are other things thatthey're're big, every kid has
what to say or the social.
But sorry and I know I'm sorryto be all over the place you
just this is what you get.
I always say like, once youunderstand it, now you should go
back and listen to the podcastagain and identify all the
different diagnosis.
You know symptoms that sarahmarkowitz has.
We joke right If you thinkabout relationships and the
(39:27):
interpersonal stuff.
So people are moving at apretty fast speed so they might
miss things that are reallyimportant.
If they have difficulty withemotion regulation, then they'll
say mean things or somethinglike they'll really respond
really intensely and they'll befine and everyone else around
them is still holding on to whatthey're doing.
And so if a person doesn't ownthis and get like the help, then
(39:51):
they can.
They're usually kids who eithermight bully others by accident
or get bullied because it's likehigh maintenance Parents will
feel very burnt out by them andthen when they get older, if
they don't know what this is,they just double down and are
demanding with others and kindof look very like difficult
people when it's something thatwe could do.
(40:12):
I love DBT.
That's what I use in my programand I find this could be super
duper helpful these types ofskills to become more mindful
and learn about emotionregulation and all these
different types of things.
Really really good help.
But we can teach our kids thesethings and we have to model it.
If we don't model it, theymodel.
It means that we practice theseand again, if you're someone
(40:33):
who automatically does it, youhave to practice saying things
out loud like wow, this isreally bothering me.
I want to just like hit thisand break this, but I'm I need
to go into the other room like Ifeel this and like I'm saying,
and it's not something we thinktwice about doing it's like not
natural to us.
If you're not a mechanic, likeyou're not a teacher, you're not
(40:54):
, it's not something that comesnaturally to you.
How to teach a child basicskills that other people pick up
automatically, right, that's.
That's not something we're,we're used and in the world we
live in it's hard, it's justhard as it is.
People always say is it ADHDjust because people have phones?
(41:15):
And it's a fast-paced world.
And a preschool teacher oncesaid to me I can tell right away
, because the difference betweentwo kids who are up and running
and moving around and when I'masking them to sit is that one
kid really wants to be able tosit and yet can't just get
themselves to sit right and,like the other kid, he's not so
interested in sitting right now.
For different reasons and like,the difference is that the child
(41:37):
with ADHD wants to be able toget themselves to do things, but
they're not able to getthemselves to do it in the
moment that they need to do it,and that is sad and frustrating.
And this child, it is a lot onthem too.
It's not easy to be them, youknow, and we want to help them
be able to access the greatnessof what they have.
(41:59):
Like you said, when they can berunning around, they're being
shepherds and there is somethingto be said about how not
everyone was meant to be theperson sitting and doing this
and it's a lot to.
It's what to think about.
Right, it's really what tothink about.
And when we have our values andwe tell our kids about school,
(42:19):
we could also modify what wecould expect of them and really
be mindful, like how can we helpthem get through their days and
focus on different things.
That we're really telling themlike you're amazing, even though
expect of them, and really bemindful, like how can we help
them get through their days andfocus on different things.
That we're really telling them,like you're amazing, even
though the school is not sayingthat this is what makes you the
most valued child and soimportant.
We're going to focus andemphasize these things until the
(42:40):
school system, you know, cancatch up or adapt so we're
talking about catching up andadapting.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I wonder if your book would have been as well
received 10 years ago or 20years ago, because of the stigma
that's sometimes attached tokids who are struggling, and I
think nowadays there's so muchless, at least, you know, every
time I say this, I get feedbackfrom people who are listening
and they're like Rifki, it's inyour circles, Maybe there's so
much less stigma.
But I really think that we havecome, you know, even if maybe
(43:10):
we aren't where we want to be.
I think we have come such along way, and a book like yours
is.
Was ADHD?
It's pretty mainstream.
We know so many people withADHD.
It's not this, you know,life-altering thing if we deal
with it properly.
And so I think that today, thisis, you know, something that's
really well received.
But I wonder if you're seeingthat there is stigma both in the
(43:30):
school system and in thecommunities, and even in the
fact that you wrote the book,like, did you have a problem
finding a publisher?
Or, you know, was there issues?
Well, interesting.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
So I think when people say ADHD, everyone's like
we get it.
But when I said it's a ADHD,everyone's like we get it.
But when I said it's a misnomer, people get it but they don't
really get it, because we'll saywe understand it, but we're not
fully ready to adapt and havedifferent things in the
environment to really help allthe children that we need to.
(44:04):
Again, again, there areexclusions and we understand it,
but we also don't fully.
We're still judgmental ofpeople who might, you know, have
trouble, like sitting in thatsame way and people judge
themselves and there is a lot ofshame.
So, on the one hand, we'remaking a lot of progress the
fact that we could even havethis book and at the same time,
we have to ask ourselves we'remaking so much progress and why
(44:27):
are so many of these kidsgetting kicked out of their
homes and kicked out of schools?
And because, again, some peopleare afraid if a child isn't
able to do all these things, andhow can I keep them in my home
Now?
Can we make these things work?
And what does it mean to otherchildren?
And but I think we're alwaysexplaining to our children.
Again, I think this is all withus Torah, but there is a lot to
(44:50):
be said that on the one hand,we get it, but I think the value
is also to really understand itdifferently and to understand
how it will impact differentareas of Jewish life and then to
really to see it on a differentlevel.
And I think some parents arestill afraid.
They're like what is mentalhealth Meaning?
Those are always the people toreally to see it on a different
level and I think some parentsare still afraid.
They're like what is mentalhealth Right?
Meaning those are always thepeople.
(45:10):
They're not listening to thispodcast.
Yeah, like probably, like maybethey will, maybe they will
listen and they just don'tunderstand it.
I would say what's mentalhealth?
It's emotion, it's our growthas Jews.
It's in the Torah.
Like this isn't out of what'sin the Torah.
I just I think that there's somuch even some of the answers
are within the Torah that canhelp us.
But I really think, likeKriyashma at night is a great
(45:33):
time for us to think at the endof the day like, hey, what do I?
How can I plan for tomorrow?
We like built in routines.
I would say the 18 minutes isHashem's way of like knowing
people.
I mean, that's really thethat's the like rebuttal, but
there's there's a lot to be said.
So, on the one hand, we'remaking progress and we're moving
(45:53):
in the right direction, and Ithink that you know.
Now the question is is how toreally take this new earned
knowledge and actually bring itin and like like the like.
Okay, but how does thistranslate into schools?
Cause you can't kick kids outof the schools.
You just can't.
You just can't do it.
(46:14):
But we are doing it, we'rereally doing it, and parents are
very much on their own andevery system is unique and I
really I love our school systemsand I and I love our teachers.
I really everybody is tryingwho goes into chinuch, the
people who really want to help.
It's the same way you go intothe work that we do.
I get yelled at all the timeLike Baruch Hashem, but I don't
(46:34):
personalize it.
We just we have to work asparents and as nechanchem and
also people who are past thispart of their life.
You know so some people.
You know Bezrat Hashem Z, sosome people you know we have as
a community, we must take thison together.
We must do it.
It is a must.
There's research in Israel thatshows that we are losing.
You talk about the assimilationrate.
(46:55):
Even in Israel.
We're losing people because ofthis.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
If they don't fit into our community's
infrastructure, it will impactour numbers and we don't want
that to happen, not because wecare about our numbers we care
about our numbers, we care aboutevery neshama, very, very
important to note, and I thinkthat the chinuch part of it, the
school system part of it, isthe part where parents you know
we send our kids into school andthen we dive in that nobody in
there messes our kid up alongthe way, especially the kids who
(47:20):
have higher needs.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I want to end with a question what was your favorite
or most surprising part aboutwriting this book?
What is my favorite or mostsurprising part?
There's so many different parts.
It's really incredible.
This is like the most ADHD andthe least ADHD thing I've ever
done and it's kudos.
This is total siata, dushmayaand thanks to my family really
my family who's been supportive,and my community, like anyone
(47:51):
else I know and also the processitself was so ADHD.
At the end I don't laugh aboutthis.
So it's an addendum.
Like it says bloopers.
Like you know, go tokosheradhdcom and send us your
ADHD bloopers.
The whole process of writing itwas so ADHD is like I would jump
from one thing to the nextuntil I could find it.
It was like a real parallelprocess.
(48:11):
But so I think that just I'mlike amazed and of the siyat of
the Shema, I feel like reallyblessed that I was able to be a
shaliach of this and thebio-social theory just also
shows me that Hashem, like ifyou asked me a few years ago why
I do like, well, I don't knowhow I got into each of the
(48:32):
different things that I got intoright, like you make the best
decisions in the moment.
I wasn't planning in a specificway but, like, because of all
the experiences I had, I wasable to apply like this model to
this and it all comes together.
So, yeah, I think that's thethe surprising part is that it
happened is that is thathappened, but also how well
received it is.
It's it's it's pretty crazy.
I think that's really it'samazing for the community and
(48:56):
again, we have a lot to do toget out there, but there's a
need and and I'm hoping that thecommunity is going to really
come together and answer thiswith us.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
I think the community will, and I want to encourage
parents who are listening to buythe book.
But more than buy the book,because you can buy the book and
you can read it yourself, butyour kid's spending eight hours
in the school.
Gift a copy or two to yourschool, to the principal, to the
social worker, to your kid'steacher.
Yeah, your kid might not haveADHD, but guess what?
You're helping someone else whomight be at the end of their
(49:28):
rope with their kid and theirsituation, and you've just given
the teacher all these greattools.
The book is really, reallypractical.
It's hands on, it's you know,there are examples it's.
It's great and it really istailored to our lifestyle and
our needs, and I think thatthat's a really, really
beautiful thing and I'm a greatbeliever in.
You know, we have so muchtalent.
We should have things that arereally culturally sensitive and,
(49:49):
you know, focus on ourreligious needs and our, you
know, communal needs, and Ithink that this is a really
great part and I hope many, manymore books come out that are
geared towards our children andgeared towards our lifestyle.
And if you haven't bought thebook, we're going to link it
down in the show notes If you'dlike to get Dr Markowitz or Dr
(50:13):
Chesner out to talk to yourschool or to talk to you or to
connect on some level.
We're going to put thatinformation also in the show
notes and we really are sograteful for the conversation
today because I know that if aparent is struggling, this is a
tool.
You know, they have so muchinformation and maybe we didn't
go into it so much, but theyhave words and snippets of
information that they can thengo dig into more and get more
resources.
They have access to the bookand they now have access to a
(50:35):
larger conversation wheresomeone else can also listen to
it and get into thisconversation and into this space
with them.
So thank you so so much forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
So so much.
I really appreciate it, it andI think that's right.
Hashem, we also gonna make aneven more extensive workbook and
have groups in communities beable to do like a book, a group
on a weekly basis when we havelike a mentor, someone who
understands it and gets it andworks with us and run these
things to like break it down,because I know sometimes I read
and it's like so muchinformation.
I love that so so slowly.
(51:11):
Thank you so much, really,thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Thank you for joining me on this past hour.
I'm so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to spend
the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
at bodysoulscom Remember that'stwo S's.
(51:38):
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing, or if you
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful up.
Like to connect?
You can use the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
Good morning and welcome to Bodies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
I am so excited to talk to youabout the topic of conversation
today.
Today we're talking about ADHDand the from community.
This is so important.
I know so many adults who arediagnosed later in life with
ADHD, so many adults who arestruggling with ADHD-like
(00:27):
symptoms, so many educators whoare struggling with ADHD in
their classrooms and so manyparents who are challenged by
children who do have ADHD in thefirm community.
We live in a firm society andit's very easy to access books
that are not firm-specific, anda lot of the tools and tricks
don't work in the lifestyle thatwe are living, and so it's very
(00:50):
important that we havehashgafically aligned and torah
aligned tools so that we can bethe best version of ourselves
and we can help our children andour students be the best
version of themselves.
Today I have with us drmarkowitz, who is one of the two
authors of a book called kosheradhd.
We're going to discuss how ADHDmanifests itself.
We are going to discuss whythis book was so important to
(01:11):
the Firm community.
We're going to discuss tools,tips and tricks that we can
implement into our lives, andwe're going to unravel this very
, very important topic.
So, without further ado, here'sDr Markowitz topic.
So, without further ado, here'sDr Markowitz.
Good morning and welcome toBodies and Souls.
(01:33):
Your host for today is RivkiBoyarsky.
Today I have Dr Sarah Markowitzhere with us.
Dr Markowitz is I'm going tojust call you Sarah for the rest
of the podcast, but she is adirector of an intensive
outpatient program for Jewishwomen in Muncie, which is
currently where she is as we'redoing the interview.
She's also a Rebetzin inFairlawn, new Jersey, and she is
the author of a book which isgoing to be the topic that we're
really delving into today,called Kosher ADHD.
(01:57):
The book is available on Amazonand really at all kosher
retailers.
So I was just telling DrMarkowitz that I had actually
bought the book before we hadconnected, because I was okay,
this is really cool.
Like we don't have a lot ofbooks that are, you know, jewish
specific.
We have like mikvah and OCD,but this this seemed like
something that would be reallyreally great for so many parents
(02:19):
and educators out there.
So I bought the book and I'mreally excited that we are going
to discuss ADHD in the Jewishworld.
So before we start, can youjust tell us a little bit more
about yourself and what broughtyou to the work that you're
doing now.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Sure, thank you so much for having me so.
Originally from Brooklyn, newYork, and in my earlier years I
was very much a highly energeticchild, still highly energetic
as an adult, but it's lessintrusive, you know, because my
teachers don't have to put upwith all the intrusions, and I
(02:55):
am really passionate aboutworking with the Jewish
community.
And when I was in college I wasfiguring out where I wanted to
place my energies next and I wasdoing some informal education
and realized that I really wantto be able to help in a way and
(03:16):
bring some more evidence-basedwork Things that have proven to
be effective and meaningful evenand to see how that can help
people grow.
And so I got my PhD in clinicalpsych.
People grow, and so I got myPhD in clinical psych.
I actually determined that Iwanted to do this while I was in
Israel with my husband he waslearning in Kol El then that's
where I met Dr Chesner, butwe'll come back to that in a
moment Got my PhD in FairleighDickinson University.
(03:36):
I've been working at AchieveBehavioral Health.
I used to be the head of thegroups.
Now I find the power ofcommunity.
So group work, all grouptherapy, and just working as a
chabura.
I find it to be extremelymeaningful.
There's a lot that we can dowith the encouragement and
accountability of other peopleand the shared wisdom, and I'm
(03:58):
the founding director of anintensive outpatient program for
Jewish women, which really cameout of my love of group work
and program development andbringing things to the community
.
Work under Dr Schechter andwithin Muncie really helped
develop that larger programservicing women who need more
and helping them get back intolife.
And in the much work that I'vedone in the group work, I
(04:22):
started doing a lot of ADHD work, like with people and kids and
family members of individualswho had ADHD.
I used done in the group work.
I started doing a lot of ADHDwork, like with people and kids
and family members ofindividuals who had ADHD.
I used to run a group.
It was so much fun.
I think I had a co-leader whodid not have ADHD with me, so I
was a good yin-yang and I foundit to be so meaningful, so
effective.
And the work that I did withkids with ADHD realized that a
lot of the parents have it too,so it's not so easy to set up a
(04:44):
system that would be helpfulKids with ADHD.
So that is how I realized thatwe have to be working with
parents and help them more.
Fast forward a few years where Iwasn't focusing on this as much
.
Dr Tresner called me from EretzYisrael and he said Sarah, we
have to write a book about ADHDin the Jewish community.
And I said no, because myhusband is a Rav Baruch Hashem.
(05:07):
We have a wonderful community.
I have my five daughters andfull-time work and I thought
that was crazy.
And he said I understand thatyou're busy, but there's a
tremendous need in the Jewishcommunity.
And I actually had thought abouta number of meetings that my
husband had had in the last twoweeks with people in the
community where there were kidswith ADHD who were literally at
(05:32):
this time of year right, we'rein March not even sure if their
children were going to be in ayeshiva.
Right, they weren't and it wasbreaking down the whole family.
It was so much energy and Ireally understood through Dr
Tresner.
He said we've been doing thiswork in Israel.
He is doing this for 32 years.
(05:52):
He's directed programs andstarted schools.
There's so much he's done.
And he's like I have wisdom andwe got to bring it.
And so I caved and I did itbecause I really believe that it
is something that is meaningful.
Here we are.
We see that the need forhelping Jews understand the
cultural impact of what ADHDlooks like in the Jewish
(06:16):
community.
That is what we have.
We brought it out and it's beenpretty well received.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
That is why that's what I wrote so I have a
two-pronged question for you.
The first one is, from my ownexperience you know researching
adhd and living with you knowrelatives with adhd.
I think a lot of our leaders,like people in leadership
positions, definitely do haveadhd.
This is specific to the jewishcommunity because I work outside
(06:43):
the jewish community.
This is very Jewish communityspecific.
Even listening to like when Iread your bio just now, I was
like, okay, she for sure hasADHD.
She's all over the place, likeshe's doing millions and
millions of projects.
Like then you were like, yeah,with my own ADHD, and I was like
, okay, that makes sense, that'swhy you're doing all these
things and it's very interesting, like I see like that parallel
and it is.
It is Jewish community specificthat our leaders actually
(07:07):
almost, almost all have, youknow, some sort of like ADHD
type of manifestation.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Temperament, as we like to say, or neurological
temperament, like a brainprobably yeah, something.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Um, but the second part is other than that.
What would make a booknecessary specifically for the
jewish community?
Like where would adhd specific?
Like I know we talk a lot aboutocd and mikvah and religious
ocd.
Okay, so I understand that hasto be a book specific for our
community.
Marriages with you know,whatever fine, but why adhd and
the?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
jewish.
Amazing question, right, andwhat makes it kosher adhd?
First, adhd is a pretty much amisnomer, like attention deficit
.
Hyperactivity disorder is whatit's called.
So what does that even mean?
So a person has trouble with,like, paying attention.
Does it mean that they havetrouble and they're like
hyperactive and impulsivity?
(08:05):
What does that actually looklike Really?
The more we understand it, it'san issue of executive
functioning, and executivefunctions is like the CEO of the
brain that really helps aperson be able to put the brakes
on certain things.
My thoughts are not jumpingfrom one thing to the next.
I'm not looking at the shiniestlight.
I'm able to have an emotion andI don't have to act on it.
I have more self-control, right, and I have a goal that I want
(08:29):
to get to and I can put thebrakes on to get there.
I can follow through, I can usemy energy in a methodical way.
I can prioritize.
There are so many components ofwhat ADHD is, just understanding
that there is a brain,temperament, the prefrontal
cortex.
I'm not going to get into theboring stuff, even though I
happen to find it fascinating,right, but there's a part of the
(08:52):
brain that is different inpeople with ADHD, and so because
that part of the brain looksdifferent, right, it doesn't
mean that it's always going tobe a problem, but to be a Jew,
you need executive functioning,to be able to sit down and daven
.
First you need to be able tosit, then you need to be able to
(09:14):
understand, like forwardthinking, or things that are
beyond what's just in front ofyour face.
We know a lot of impulse.
It means that I am like, inthis moment I don't have a sense
of time.
Right, time blindness issomething that you're just like
hello, I told you to be here atthis time and they're totally
focused on you but have no ideawhat's coming next.
Right, so you could be in thismoment, but you don't know that
(09:36):
there's a Hashem I'm speaking to, or sitting and learning, right
, we're not being chutzpahed,right?
Or these are all areas that tobe a firm jew, this is an
expectation to be a woman, right?
Let's say, I have trouble beingorganized.
That's part of it.
Just to be a jewish woman andtake care of your children and
(09:57):
have a job, and yeah, that's alot.
But then you want to be on topof your shoes if you already
have trouble, so that you'regoing to be last minute inviting
people.
If you're inviting anyone, thenyou have to be on top of your
shoes.
If you already have trouble sothat you're going to be last
minute inviting people, ifyou're inviting anyone, then you
have to be on top the amount ofthings that you need to be on
top of.
So what we're saying is, giventhe nature of the struggles that
a person, or just the way thatthe brain is set up, they're
going to have certain challengesthat are manifest in the Jewish
(10:19):
community and our school systemsometimes, or even the homes.
Our expectations of our childto sit at the Shabbos table, if
we know that they're having thisissue and we're asking them to
help them, either do it well,right or hold them accountable
at the level they can so thatthey can slowly move forward in
what they're doing.
It's not intentional.
(10:52):
No one's making like a speechand saying, mom, I hate Judaism,
it's like I can't sit.
We're the ones telling themwell, you can't sit through
davening, like you aren't from,like we're expecting you to sit
for 45 minutes or an hour andthen you make a comment to your
teacher who's not getting youright.
(11:12):
Of course it's good to learn,but the expectation, what we're
asking them to do is is beyondwhat is available, and so we
have to understand this and andset them up in the way the book
is predicated on, this beautifulpiece of Torah, that the
difference between, and thesimilarities between, an Esav
and a David right, that both ofthem are called Admoni and that
(11:37):
Esav he is known, he's all hislike actions.
They're like five verbs in arow he's eating's, drinking,
when, when he's selling thebachorah, and david is also.
When shmua goes to find david,it's he has.
There's a magic that says thathe's an admoni and we can't take
him to be our leader because hereminds us of asav.
(11:58):
But the difference is is thatdavid is passionate, he
wrotehillim, he's the mostexpressive.
We want to be able to have ourchildren be like a David
HaMelech.
But if we have a certainneurological temperament,
bio-basis, and then we have anenvironment that is expecting
someone to be Yaakov Yosef youknow, ishtam Yosef, right, like
(12:23):
he's sitting and learning, thenwe might be set up for
disappointment.
But if we set him up to be awarrior, to be a Jewish leader,
to express himself, then we canhave a David.
And so I think that is whatwe're trying to understand, that
just to understand really whatADHD is and to see where it's
(12:44):
going to manifest and how toapproach it in a very meaningful
way, using some unique ways ofapplying some principles that
are helpful with ADHD in generaland, I think, really helping
people to tap into thesesuperpowers.
Like you're saying, if you'renot broken by the time you're an
adult, you'll be a great leaderIf you can find the right
(13:05):
compensatory skills, right, ifyour spouse helps you.
But if your spouse is tellingyou, oh, why aren't you going to
Davin?
But we know that as someone, itdoesn't mean that they can't.
But someone who has ADHD mighthave trouble going to sleep at
night and waking up.
Now if you say, oh, my spousehas trouble waking up and you're
constantly telling you know new, you didn't get a firminion
(13:25):
like what's your problem?
And you think I have a schluband he thinks he's like a schlub
right, like, oh, nebuchadnezzaron me and him, and then you're
his mom and that's never goodfor the marriage.
But let's say he's someone whohas adhd and he realizes I need
more accountability.
I'm gonna ask my wife if sheminds doing that by asking, and
then the person says yes, now hetakes ownership, she is allowed
(13:49):
to do it right, like it's not.
I'm reminding you and they'resaying it's not that I'm a bad
person or that I don't loveJudaism or that I don't want to
go to heaven.
It's very difficult for me toget there.
So I need to take ownershipthat it's hard.
What's going to help me do this?
To take ownership that it'shard.
What's going to help me do this?
And that is the difference.
And this is big.
This is big for Shalom Bias,this is big for the home, this
(14:10):
is big for how we see ourchildren and to have more
compassion, understanding,patience and really become the
wise guys to help with thechenech, to help them become a
davra melech.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I love that no-transcript younger.
(14:53):
And then you know I've heardthis from mothers again and
again that they went to theirpediatrician and they're like,
oh, we don't actually diagnoseADHD until eight years old.
Eight years old seems very,very late to get all of the
early intervention and the toolsand the tricks.
And by then already theteachers are already saying oh,
you didn't hop out of base,you're moving in your seat,
you're not a good kid, and theyalready have this relationship
(15:13):
with school.
Eight seems extremely late.
So before we even get into thediscussion about how this
presents in the community andwhat are the tools and the
tricks, et cetera, et cetera,let's first talk about what is
ADHD, how it presents and howwould someone listening go about
getting a diagnosis either fortheir children or for themselves
(15:34):
, or for their spouse or forsomeone that you know they love
and care about?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Amazing, wonderful question and important step back
.
So, as I said, it's aneurological temperament.
People the the part of thebrain looks different and every
child will have a differentpresentation.
Right, and we can break it downinto many, many different parts
of executive functioning.
(15:59):
So, like we said that, theability to put the brakes on
them like self-control, but thatwill manifest in a lot of areas
.
So even their brain is jumpingfrom one thing to the next, it's
harder for them to sit.
They get bored more easily.
The brain needs a higher levelof stimulation.
So what other kids can sitaround and do they're having
(16:23):
trouble doing right?
Again, if you ask a certain kiddon't eat before davening, you
know, like, whatever it is, evenif it's five minutes and you're
noticing this child is likereally struggling.
Now again, maybe he's havingsome sensory issues, maybe he's
having expressive.
We can't always know exactlywhat it is, but you want to have
(16:44):
a sense of.
These are certain areas.
Can they sustain attention?
How do they do when they shiftattention?
What's their cognitiveflexibility like?
Do they follow through?
Are they able to organize theirmaterials?
Do they keep on losingeverything?
Now, a lot of kids lose stuff,right, but this is a special
type.
When the kid comes home and youhave certain certain kids.
I would definitely like this asa kid, right?
(17:05):
It's like, oh, my mom gave me aclementine three weeks ago and
it's still in my knapsack, right?
So so everyone will say, ohwell, a boy is like this and uh,
this girl.
But that's not the case.
The case is is that if you havea child who could, it could even
manifest sometimes in havingtrouble with reading
comprehension, the ability tobreak steps down, working memory
(17:27):
is a significant piece.
I'll end with this and thenjust say like okay, you know,
this is like the gist of it.
So everyone knows attention,impulsive, right.
They react without thinking.
They have a hard time learningfrom consequences Could be
harder.
So you have to set up theenvironment.
Everything has to be set upwith immediate consequences.
Most people are like why do youneed to reward them more?
They don't learn frompunishment as much.
(17:47):
Really they don't, but it'staken away.
They learn, their brain isturned on by things that
stimulate and they look forwardto Ask me why.
That's just how it works.
Trial and error.
You see what's effective,what's not effective.
Working memory.
I struggle tremendously with myworking memory, like I'm
holding in the moment I have awhiteboard right next to me here
at work, so if I writesomething down.
(18:09):
So what would you tell your kidin the morning If you want your
kids to get ready, what aresome things that you would tell
your kids to do?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
negovasser, brush your teeth, get dressed.
Let's go down brachis, come onamazing.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Okay, kid with adhd, the minute that you say the
first thing, that's great,negovasser.
Now you said go, brush yourteeth.
You literally imagine taking aneraser, you erase, negovasser,
and all they know is brush yourteeth.
So why didn't they do that?
They can't hold on to it.
It's a working memory, it'swhatever I can hold in the
moment that I need to apply.
If it's not written down andbroken down in steps, some kids
(18:46):
even in the book it says itbreaks down that you need
something called a WOMAC, aworking memory cue, right,
activation cue.
If it doesn't say what thereneeds to do with a clear thing,
I set an alarm for myself.
If it doesn't tell me what Ineed to do, I'm just like, eh,
but otherwise it will say calldoctor for this child, right, I
have to say which doctor.
(19:07):
I might get specific.
I might have like 3,000 alarmsthat I never deleted on my phone
.
But these are all things that ifa child doesn't know, and
sometimes breaking down skills,so they're even watching the
TLC9, just to tell them watchthe TLC9, but if they can't
figure out all the steps, itmight be hard for them.
This is all part of areas thatare more difficult.
So when do you take them?
You're already taking cues fromso early intervention.
(19:30):
That might not be somethingthat helps.
They will need to set up thingsin their environment.
If you're finding that theyneed a lot of like again, these
working memory cues, thatthey're having a hard time
sitting in class, that they needextra prompts to get them going
and to really be able to focus,that they get focused when
things are very interesting, allthese things.
So then people could either goto a pediatrician If you're
seeing that they're havingtrouble in school, you want to
(19:52):
learn about this so much and youwant to advocate on behalf of
your child.
What are things that are goingto help?
Because the teachers want to dowell, they can't If they.
We always say with children ifthey could do better, they would
do better.
This is Ross's dream.
He says this all the time.
Kids want to do well, adultswant to do well.
It's more complicated becausewe have more life under our
belts, but we all want to dowell.
Teachers want to do well.
(20:13):
It's not always sustainable.
So you have the best advocate.
You need to learn about it Now.
That doesn't mean so somepeople will say, okay, so I go
to my pediatrician.
Pills are not skills, so don'tbe surprised.
Pills, though, might be reallyhelpful.
Why?
Because it's a very neurogenic.
It's the neurological part ofthe brain.
It's just like with the thyroid.
It helps get you back up tospeed.
This can help, but if someonetakes a pill and it helps them
(20:36):
focus, yeah, and it tends more.
So it's great if you need todrive, but if you're focusing on
the wrong thing, that's not sohelpful.
So you need that and you alsoneed a list of the things that
you need to be doing that you'veprioritized.
Right Like it's morecomplicated, but there's so many
different executive functioningskills that people can be
teaching that, the more you getthat, you can teach your child
(20:56):
help systems at home.
And guess what?
I am not, so my executivefunctioning is a very special
thing.
Again, it could be a superpower, except when it's not.
And thank God, as Dr RussellBarkley says, thank God for the
compassion of everyone aroundyou that helps.
The difference between a childwho's going to succeed and not
is the compassion of thosearound them, which means you
(21:17):
need a lot of support, and ifyou're not great with executive
functioning, this is where youget a chabrusa.
This is where you get supportand you help yourself, because
there are some people in lifewho are really great at
executive functioning butthey're not so creative, right,
meaning it's a currency.
Guys, let's all figure out howto help each other.
You have the friends who alwaysremind you about carpool.
(21:38):
Okay, so, like great, you'llmake them an extra babka, like
whatever.
However, we can get thesesystems to work, but we're going
to have to set them up in theright way so you can do that.
Sometimes they need, you know,certain more extensive testing,
or they might need a coach, likean executive coach, depending
on what the school can offer,depending on what you know.
So you go to all thesedifferent ways, but some people
(22:01):
go to a developmentalpediatrician.
By the way, this could be justa own webinar, like podcast, on
just you know, how do you goabout the process of thinking
about help for your child,because there's so many
different pathways of how youcan get help and what is really
difficult.
And this is where we want toalso help the community with.
You know kosher-adhdcom, but wewant to be able to offer more
(22:24):
resources and help the communitycome together to really tackle
this in a more methodical way,because there are some resources
out there, but not everyoneknows who to go to, what to go
to, and you feel like you arebleeding resources, which you
really are, and you know to be aparent, baruch hashem, if
there's a bracha that you knowto be a parent, baruch hashem,
if there's a bracha that we getto be a parent of a child with
adhd, it will require more.
(22:46):
It will require more of yourtime and it will require more of
your money.
Right now.
Right, if we, if we, we got tofigure this out and also like
that's a stira, because if itrequires more of your time, then
you're not going to have lesstime to make the money that you
need.
But you know, if we don't takecare of it now, it's going to
blow up in our face laterbecause as demands get greater
(23:10):
in life, that's why certainwomen maybe they're not
impulsive or hyperactive, butthe inattentive type they can
get through school, they're notbothering anyone.
So they come and then they're amother and then they have all
these things to deal with.
They didn't even know they haveADHD, they never treated it,
they don't even know what couldhelp them.
Now they just feel like they'rea failure, right, like it's not
helping anybody.
And then you feel bad aboutyourself, you're depressed,
(23:31):
you're anxious, you're feelingguilty.
The resources are going to beso much more right.
The family is going to besuffering more if you just would
get help or a child who's notuntreated ADHD right or is
kicked out of systems If theparent doesn't have the time and
resources and bandwidth tosupport them.
It's going to cost so much morelater.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So as a college teacher, I also want to mention
one other thing is that Isometimes see ADHD that was
diagnosed and not well treatedin kids actually cause a lot of
relationship disruptions andlike I don't think people
realize that it also has that.
You know, we want our kids tohave good and healthy marriage
and, like you said, yes, but Ialso think, like I think there's
(24:14):
a little bit of a hold back forparents who are dealing with
actually not just ADHD but anychallenge with their children.
There's no central space forresources, like it's really
great that you have theresources, but until someone's
listening to this podcast orreaching out to you agreed,
there's no access to like well,what do I do?
So everyone talks to theirfriends, their neighbors,
(24:34):
they're waiting for the bus,they're doing carpool, they're
talking and they're doing, Idon't know, whatever was
advertised in the army, you know, like for lack of a better, you
know, and then you try it andyou say, okay, how long do I try
it for to give it a real go?
I try it for six months, I tryit for three months and then
you're hemorrhaging money andthen you have to do that again
because that wasn't the rightfit.
So I think my dream and I've hadkids in the system for almost
(24:57):
15 years now my dream would bethat there would be some sort of
centralized space where we canjust say okay, my kid is
struggling with priya, what dowe do?
Who do we talk to?
Here's a consult, here's areferral, go ahead, go.
And that would be like ideal,because I'm listening to you and
I'm like I don't even know whothese things are.
I didn't know that there waslike a special pediatrician for
(25:17):
people who are neurodiverse orlike.
I didn't even know that was a.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I would like to say so.
One of my coping skills, andsomething I like to do for fun,
is programmatic development andhow to help the community.
So one of the things that Ispeak about with this, with Dr
Chesner, right, is this notionof out of the box educational
consultation, right?
Or just that we need, or even,like a Jewish, what is it called
?
Like child study team?
(25:43):
Right, we have this thing wherethey come, and we're able to do
this because sometimes theneuropsych testing is not
adequate.
Or you know, someone told merecently that they took their
child for free neuropsychtesting.
I got like the Child MindInstitute you sign up, it's
research meet, whatever it islike it works for some people,
or a healthy brain network, andthen the child went.
(26:05):
Of course, sometimes the childcould be oppositional.
I want to get to therelationship piece.
But if the child is anxious anddoesn't know how to do certain
things and you're asking aperson to do what's expected and
they don't know how to do it,then they're going to look
oppositional, right.
And so someone said, oh, canyou do this?
And this child's they.
They got on the wait list forso long and they finally got
(26:25):
this and the child and the childsaid to the people I don't want
to do it.
And the people said, well, wecan't force him to do it.
And you're like, are youworking?
And then the the accessibilitypart is like till the parents
and I followed up and just Iwould say like, oh gosh, you
would call these people back andsay, of course, this child is
struggling with this type ofthing.
(26:46):
Obviously they're going to sayno, like what is your process?
Give me another date, or let'stry and incentivize the child
right after, like there's somuch we could do, but even small
things.
It's just like who is guidingpeople right through this
process?
And it's amazing.
Again, you gotta I always saylike top down and bottom up, we
gotta be addressing this and I'mproud that Dr Jezner and I are
(27:10):
trying and like also, thereception from the community is
extraordinary, but it's aslimited as, however we get the
word out, whoever goes to abookstore, maybe the bookstore
doesn't have it, I don't know.
All these accessibility issomething that you know.
The more we can get as manyresources and I think what
you're saying is really sovaluable and so important just
to continue to think how do weget people to have access to
(27:32):
this information, to understand,to learn, so we can best help
people, not have to feel likeyou know, 20 years later I
finally got the information.
Why does it have to be withsuch agmas nefesh?
And again, to be honest, as aparent who feels like I really
know a lot sometimes, a lot oftimes, I don't actually, I
really, really don't ask myhusband he's so kind to me
(27:53):
anyway but because he's just atzaddik, but there's a lot of
times I don't.
I just say I do that I have alot of resources and wisdom in
the field and still couldn'tfigure out navigating certain
things with one of our childrenand it took years and tears, so
much.
And so sometimes people don'treally hear what we're saying
(28:17):
because, until it's like a pointof desperation, they don't want
to look at the reality ofthings.
The thing is, when it comes toadhd, if you could look at the
reality, it could be not as bad.
Yes, it's acknowledging, but weall have different temperaments
, we all have differentpersonality types.
This kid is quiet, this kid islouder, this kid is whatever,
like okay, so we're gonna notignore it, like let's look and
(28:39):
help and and and guide them andand work with them, the more
people can look at the systemand you know we could, we could,
we could do this, we reallycould do it, and we're hoping
that we can really be helpingpeople develop a real group of
like I want the parents, I wantthere to be some crowds like I
would like it to be, that wedevelop a whole and not just
(29:01):
parents, adults with adhd.
With ADHD, as we're all gettingready for Pesach and as we're,
you know, like thisaccountability, this, whatever
it is like things are difficult.
Let's, let's grow together,let's get access, let's be part
of a community who wants totackle this.
So every person really matters.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
We have a WhatsApp for moms with kids who have ADHD
.
It's not a super active WhatsApp, but every once in a while
there's resources shared and Ithink it's a really it's really
nice.
It's not in any way, you know,complete, like I remember when,
you know, I brought up Daphneand Chill, which was a great
example, and I'm like this is astruggle, like what do you guys
(29:37):
do?
And there was radio silence andI think that there was like a
group of parents who were likepushing their kids to do it
anyways, and a group of parentswere like, yeah, whatever.
And so that's another part thatI wonder if you would address
is we're adjusting things for,you know, our kid who's
struggling, or kid isneurodiverse in other ways, and
then the other kids like well,if he gets the prizes, I want
(29:57):
the prizes.
If he doesn't have to the shop,people what?
And then your whole, you know,everything gets disrupted.
So it's like a fine balancehere of the expectations that we
have for kids who are notstruggling, the expectations
that we have as we adjust to youknow.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Ah, you said a few questions.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh, I said so much because I'm like we can talk
about this for like four parts.
Oh, I want to bring it up right.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So much because I'm like we can talk about this for
like four parts.
I want to bring it down right.
So we actually just ran like apre-Purim webinar, for example.
Right, and it's interestingbecause a lot of people are like
Purim is the easiest thing,like okay, so like he's a little
whatever.
It is right.
But think about davening Pointis, on the one hand, you're
saying like some people are justlike no, I'm holding them
accountable, we cannot modifyexpectations in other people.
(30:40):
Right, they're saying, eh,what's the big deal?
But the what's the big deal?
We're not saying it's, first ofall, we're not all or nothing,
we're not black and white.
I really recommend dialecticalthinking.
So I can, you know, it could belike he's having a hard time
and he can do better, like it'shard for him now and there's
what to do when you're holdingboth and that creates a new
reality.
(31:00):
But for what we say is and thenI'm going to answer the part
about the siblings and how doyou deal with that?
Because I think these are twoextremely, extremely important
parts.
So, number one and he talksabout this in the book Dr Chesna
breaks this down in a lot ofvery specific ways and there's a
video actually happens to behis son.
Shia is in the army now in theIDF and he is fighting.
(31:21):
He's amazing.
We're in Israel for like fiveseconds and we did this video.
Really it was very brief tripand we had done like a video
like the two hours that we hadbefore I ran to the airport and
it shows what it looks like fora kid to daven and the Shabbos
video.
So what we're saying is what isthis specific child up to?
What can they do?
Can they do 20 minutes ofdavening?
(31:42):
And you need to be veryspecific.
So you have to do smarkles andyou break it down and you say
what are they up to?
What can they do now?
And now let's explain to themthis is what they are capable.
You want to see that they do alittle bit more.
You break it down, you givethem like, okay, you could come
in for lachadodi.
You tell them exactly what theyneed to do.
You already know, lachadodi,you hold your sitter.
You're going to sing it loudwhen you.
(32:04):
Then you're going to leave,you're going to leave and if you
leave, I'm going to give youthis type of thing and then
you're going to come right andwe are going to work and then
we're going to build up more,and the more child builds, they
see that they can do it.
We often we go to the either oryou know, either hold them
accountable, because it's toomuch brain power to figure it
out, and if you need the supportfrom others, so get the support
(32:24):
, but eventually you're going tolearn these internal principles
that you use to do this.
You might not know what is himjust like being just a kid, or
her just being whatever it isright and like, what are they
really up to?
And speak to your rev aboutlisten, I think this is what's
going on.
They'll say listen, these arethe parts of the happening that
are most important that, like inthe beginning, hit these main
(32:50):
points.
Make sure he makes a ashray,shema, right, you focus on them.
This is what they could do, butthey might not be able to pay
attention all of the words, soI'd, rather than focus on some,
but ask the Rav and so so numberone is you got to know what
they're up to and then you gotto make smart goals and and
reward.
There's like we break it downreally, really specifically and
you'll build on more becauseotherwise you're making them
stay.
They don't even get the positivepart because you're never going
(33:12):
to find something good aboutwhat they're doing.
Because I like to say idf,intensity, duration, frequency
progress has to be broken down.
My father done right.
Progress has to be broken down.
If the things that he's doingare bad, you are never going to
find if they're really yellingwhen their siblings are around,
right, you're never going tothink that they're doing
anything good because there's somuch that's going wrong.
(33:34):
You're not going to ever rewardthem for doing a little bit
less of that, but we need to beable to do that.
But you need to be able toexplain to your siblings.
So sometimes you're going to getan award, you have a bag of
toys that randomly in a closetthat you're going to pull out
and you do, and sometimes it'syou're going to say to your
children listen, it's okay,people operate differently.
You get these special things.
(33:54):
You're able to do this, believeme.
They get to see that this childprobably has a peckle off.
That is not so easy and theycan understand that.
But you can say look at allthese amazing things and these
are things and you're differentin these ways and be mindful
that it could be stressful to bea sibling.
Sometimes you don't want tomake it like, oh, you never hunt
them, our problem child, right?
We're super mindful, but ittakes a lot of shifting and
(34:19):
understanding and operatingdifferently.
And, like I'm a fast pacedperson, I slow down in my home,
like in order to really give mykids who have ADHD what they
need.
I got to have a different tempo, so when I'm working I want to
have my tempo, but other times Ihave to learn that I need to
change along with them.
And it's a growth process,right?
(34:40):
What do you do?
I'm sure you have so manypodcasts and we talk about
growth.
This is what we do as Jews.
That's the culture at ADHD,that we're growth oriented and
it's a lifelong process ofthings that we can do.
And it's okay to be the parentsand it's okay to teach your kids
that sometimes it's differentand that they operate
differently.
And then in your Mavatar,you'll teach them.
(35:03):
Sometimes it won't have to be aconcrete, tangible thing.
It will be you saying, like you, oh my gosh, I know how hard it
is for you to sit, and that yousat down and the way that you
sang it enhanced this experienceso much.
Or, like I know, your Tzvilawas like that was like wow.
And these are things we have tothink about.
We have to think about a childwho isn't really stagging in the
(35:29):
base medrash but loves to davenand be about spiela.
If they're 15 and we say, no,you can't be the bouts you look,
because we think you're a poorrole model because you're not
learning right in the basemedrash that that is really that
would be so upsetting, becausenow you have this kid who has so
much to offer they can't dothey could do chassa, they could
do let's.
We gotta think out of the box.
And if you have this kid whohas so much to offer they can't
do they could do, they could dolet's, we got to think out of
the box.
And if you have troublethinking out of the box, believe
(35:50):
me, you have a neighbor thatdoes know how.
You know we'll find the timeand we could do this.
Like we.
We could tackle it one, onepiece at a time.
One piece at a time.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I love that and in a way I think that when life was a
little less standardized, like,kids like this were appreciated
maybe a little bit more,because they were the kids who
rallied everyone in the shtetland they got things done and
right.
And then we're like guess what?
You got to stay in school for12 years and that's just how it
is.
Sorry, buddy.
So I think in a way these kidsmiss a little bit.
I want to go back one moresecond.
(36:22):
We went like I asked a littlebit about the diagnosis, but we
didn't actually talk about it.
Do you always need to do aneuropsych eval in order to get
a diagnosis for adhd?
And what about an adult?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
an adult also doesn't need to do it a neuropsych eval
gives you so much moreinformation and, again, no one
should think that they are abucky in um, that they're an
expert in all these areas.
After this meaning andunderstanding the difference
between a neusych rate, we're ata point where, like, a
self-report measure is somethingthat people use, that they like
get a very extensive historythat they find out what was
(36:54):
going on.
People have had to have hadcertain symptoms, you know
certain areas of challenges fromwhen they were much younger.
This is something that had tobe there from before.
Adult ADHD might manifestdifferently.
These are things that you canfind online, even, but then you
go to a doctor or you go to apsychiatrist.
A psychiatrist can give you thediagnosis.
Sometimes psychologists cangive a diagnosis.
(37:16):
You don't always needmedication.
Not every person is going towork with.
Some people they might not needa stimulant because they also
have a lot of anxiety.
So there's other types ofmedications that can help with
ADHD, but if it pipes up theiranxiety, like we're mindful of
these things and again, somepeople are so adamant against it
and some people are not like Ithink that it is something that
(37:37):
really has proven to be helpfulfor some kids really a lot, but
seek your own information toreally find out about this and
just remember that it's a wholeshift in your attitude about
life.
It's really take the time tounderstand it and when you think
you understand that, you alsomight not understand it.
And sometimes I understand that, oh, this is my ADHD and it
(37:59):
doesn't make me okay.
I'm still disappointed orannoyed that I need to ask a
friend to talk through something, because that's how my brain
really works through ideas morethan writing it, more than
thinking through myself.
That's annoying.
I'm going to call you everytime I need to think through
some big idea.
You know that's a lot of favorsthat I need to do in order to
(38:20):
get stuff done and that doesn'tfeel good.
But in the end of the day, if Iknow I can set myself up the
right way and I know what I haveto offer and what will help me
succeed and the different waysof doing things, sorry.
So again, I think adults alsothere are psychiatrists or
therapists that they can get adiagnosis and it can be really
(38:40):
helpful.
Sometimes people want aneuropsych eval because that
gives them a whole learningprofile on a child.
It's much more extensive thanjust understanding and sometimes
we understand that learning itcould be impacted.
A kid could have OCD and that'sthe reason why their processing
speed is a little bit slower,or working memory, or it could
be ADHD, or it could be alearning challenge, or it could
just be that this kid is likenot the most book smart person,
(39:04):
but they have multipleintelligences.
There are other things thatthey're're big, every kid has
what to say or the social.
But sorry and I know I'm sorryto be all over the place you
just this is what you get.
I always say like, once youunderstand it, now you should go
back and listen to the podcastagain and identify all the
different diagnosis.
You know symptoms that sarahmarkowitz has.
We joke right If you thinkabout relationships and the
(39:27):
interpersonal stuff.
So people are moving at apretty fast speed so they might
miss things that are reallyimportant.
If they have difficulty withemotion regulation, then they'll
say mean things or somethinglike they'll really respond
really intensely and they'll befine and everyone else around
them is still holding on to whatthey're doing.
And so if a person doesn't ownthis and get like the help, then
(39:51):
they can.
They're usually kids who eithermight bully others by accident
or get bullied because it's likehigh maintenance Parents will
feel very burnt out by them andthen when they get older, if
they don't know what this is,they just double down and are
demanding with others and kindof look very like difficult
people when it's something thatwe could do.
(40:12):
I love DBT.
That's what I use in my programand I find this could be super
duper helpful these types ofskills to become more mindful
and learn about emotionregulation and all these
different types of things.
Really really good help.
But we can teach our kids thesethings and we have to model it.
If we don't model it, theymodel.
It means that we practice theseand again, if you're someone
(40:33):
who automatically does it, youhave to practice saying things
out loud like wow, this isreally bothering me.
I want to just like hit thisand break this, but I'm I need
to go into the other room like Ifeel this and like I'm saying,
and it's not something we thinktwice about doing it's like not
natural to us.
If you're not a mechanic, likeyou're not a teacher, you're not
(40:54):
, it's not something that comesnaturally to you.
How to teach a child basicskills that other people pick up
automatically, right, that's.
That's not something we're,we're used and in the world we
live in it's hard, it's justhard as it is.
People always say is it ADHDjust because people have phones?
(41:15):
And it's a fast-paced world.
And a preschool teacher oncesaid to me I can tell right away
, because the difference betweentwo kids who are up and running
and moving around and when I'masking them to sit is that one
kid really wants to be able tosit and yet can't just get
themselves to sit right and,like the other kid, he's not so
interested in sitting right now.
For different reasons and like,the difference is that the child
(41:37):
with ADHD wants to be able toget themselves to do things, but
they're not able to getthemselves to do it in the
moment that they need to do it,and that is sad and frustrating.
And this child, it is a lot onthem too.
It's not easy to be them, youknow, and we want to help them
be able to access the greatnessof what they have.
(41:59):
Like you said, when they can berunning around, they're being
shepherds and there is somethingto be said about how not
everyone was meant to be theperson sitting and doing this
and it's a lot to.
It's what to think about.
Right, it's really what tothink about.
And when we have our values andwe tell our kids about school,
(42:19):
we could also modify what wecould expect of them and really
be mindful, like how can we helpthem get through their days and
focus on different things.
That we're really telling themlike you're amazing, even though
expect of them, and really bemindful, like how can we help
them get through their days andfocus on different things.
That we're really telling them,like you're amazing, even
though the school is not sayingthat this is what makes you the
most valued child and soimportant.
We're going to focus andemphasize these things until the
(42:40):
school system, you know, cancatch up or adapt so we're
talking about catching up andadapting.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I wonder if your book would have been as well
received 10 years ago or 20years ago, because of the stigma
that's sometimes attached tokids who are struggling, and I
think nowadays there's so muchless, at least, you know, every
time I say this, I get feedbackfrom people who are listening
and they're like Rifki, it's inyour circles, Maybe there's so
much less stigma.
But I really think that we havecome, you know, even if maybe
(43:10):
we aren't where we want to be.
I think we have come such along way, and a book like yours
is.
Was ADHD?
It's pretty mainstream.
We know so many people withADHD.
It's not this, you know,life-altering thing if we deal
with it properly.
And so I think that today, thisis, you know, something that's
really well received.
But I wonder if you're seeingthat there is stigma both in the
(43:30):
school system and in thecommunities, and even in the
fact that you wrote the book,like, did you have a problem
finding a publisher?
Or, you know, was there issues?
Well, interesting.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
So I think when people say ADHD, everyone's like
we get it.
But when I said it's a ADHD,everyone's like we get it.
But when I said it's a misnomer, people get it but they don't
really get it, because we'll saywe understand it, but we're not
fully ready to adapt and havedifferent things in the
environment to really help allthe children that we need to.
(44:04):
Again, again, there areexclusions and we understand it,
but we also don't fully.
We're still judgmental ofpeople who might, you know, have
trouble, like sitting in thatsame way and people judge
themselves and there is a lot ofshame.
So, on the one hand, we'remaking a lot of progress the
fact that we could even havethis book and at the same time,
we have to ask ourselves we'remaking so much progress and why
(44:27):
are so many of these kidsgetting kicked out of their
homes and kicked out of schools?
And because, again, some peopleare afraid if a child isn't
able to do all these things, andhow can I keep them in my home
Now?
Can we make these things work?
And what does it mean to otherchildren?
And but I think we're alwaysexplaining to our children.
Again, I think this is all withus Torah, but there is a lot to
(44:50):
be said that on the one hand,we get it, but I think the value
is also to really understand itdifferently and to understand
how it will impact differentareas of Jewish life and then to
really to see it on a differentlevel.
And I think some parents arestill afraid.
They're like what is mentalhealth Meaning?
Those are always the people toreally to see it on a different
level and I think some parentsare still afraid.
They're like what is mentalhealth Right?
Meaning those are always thepeople.
(45:10):
They're not listening to thispodcast.
Yeah, like probably, like maybethey will, maybe they will
listen and they just don'tunderstand it.
I would say what's mentalhealth?
It's emotion, it's our growthas Jews.
It's in the Torah.
Like this isn't out of what'sin the Torah.
I just I think that there's somuch even some of the answers
are within the Torah that canhelp us.
But I really think, likeKriyashma at night is a great
(45:33):
time for us to think at the endof the day like, hey, what do I?
How can I plan for tomorrow?
We like built in routines.
I would say the 18 minutes isHashem's way of like knowing
people.
I mean, that's really thethat's the like rebuttal, but
there's there's a lot to be said.
So, on the one hand, we'remaking progress and we're moving
(45:53):
in the right direction, and Ithink that you know.
Now the question is is how toreally take this new earned
knowledge and actually bring itin and like like the like.
Okay, but how does thistranslate into schools?
Cause you can't kick kids outof the schools.
You just can't.
You just can't do it.
(46:14):
But we are doing it, we'rereally doing it, and parents are
very much on their own andevery system is unique and I
really I love our school systemsand I and I love our teachers.
I really everybody is tryingwho goes into chinuch, the
people who really want to help.
It's the same way you go intothe work that we do.
I get yelled at all the timeLike Baruch Hashem, but I don't
(46:34):
personalize it.
We just we have to work asparents and as nechanchem and
also people who are past thispart of their life.
You know so some people.
You know Bezrat Hashem Z, sosome people you know we have as
a community, we must take thison together.
We must do it.
It is a must.
There's research in Israel thatshows that we are losing.
You talk about the assimilationrate.
(46:55):
Even in Israel.
We're losing people because ofthis.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
If they don't fit into our community's
infrastructure, it will impactour numbers and we don't want
that to happen, not because wecare about our numbers we care
about our numbers, we care aboutevery neshama, very, very
important to note, and I thinkthat the chinuch part of it, the
school system part of it, isthe part where parents you know
we send our kids into school andthen we dive in that nobody in
there messes our kid up alongthe way, especially the kids who
(47:20):
have higher needs.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I want to end with a question what was your favorite
or most surprising part aboutwriting this book?
What is my favorite or mostsurprising part?
There's so many different parts.
It's really incredible.
This is like the most ADHD andthe least ADHD thing I've ever
done and it's kudos.
This is total siata, dushmayaand thanks to my family really
my family who's been supportive,and my community, like anyone
(47:51):
else I know and also the processitself was so ADHD.
At the end I don't laugh aboutthis.
So it's an addendum.
Like it says bloopers.
Like you know, go tokosheradhdcom and send us your
ADHD bloopers.
The whole process of writing itwas so ADHD is like I would jump
from one thing to the nextuntil I could find it.
It was like a real parallelprocess.
(48:11):
But so I think that just I'mlike amazed and of the siyat of
the Shema, I feel like reallyblessed that I was able to be a
shaliach of this and thebio-social theory just also
shows me that Hashem, like ifyou asked me a few years ago why
I do like, well, I don't knowhow I got into each of the
(48:32):
different things that I got intoright, like you make the best
decisions in the moment.
I wasn't planning in a specificway but, like, because of all
the experiences I had, I wasable to apply like this model to
this and it all comes together.
So, yeah, I think that's thethe surprising part is that it
happened is that is thathappened, but also how well
received it is.
It's it's it's pretty crazy.
I think that's really it'samazing for the community and
(48:56):
again, we have a lot to do toget out there, but there's a
need and and I'm hoping that thecommunity is going to really
come together and answer thiswith us.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
I think the community will, and I want to encourage
parents who are listening to buythe book.
But more than buy the book,because you can buy the book and
you can read it yourself, butyour kid's spending eight hours
in the school.
Gift a copy or two to yourschool, to the principal, to the
social worker, to your kid'steacher.
Yeah, your kid might not haveADHD, but guess what?
You're helping someone else whomight be at the end of their
(49:28):
rope with their kid and theirsituation, and you've just given
the teacher all these greattools.
The book is really, reallypractical.
It's hands on, it's you know,there are examples it's.
It's great and it really istailored to our lifestyle and
our needs, and I think thatthat's a really, really
beautiful thing and I'm a greatbeliever in.
You know, we have so muchtalent.
We should have things that arereally culturally sensitive and,
(49:49):
you know, focus on ourreligious needs and our, you
know, communal needs, and Ithink that this is a really
great part and I hope many, manymore books come out that are
geared towards our children andgeared towards our lifestyle.
And if you haven't bought thebook, we're going to link it
down in the show notes If you'dlike to get Dr Markowitz or Dr
(50:13):
Chesner out to talk to yourschool or to talk to you or to
connect on some level.
We're going to put thatinformation also in the show
notes and we really are sograteful for the conversation
today because I know that if aparent is struggling, this is a
tool.
You know, they have so muchinformation and maybe we didn't
go into it so much, but theyhave words and snippets of
information that they can thengo dig into more and get more
resources.
They have access to the bookand they now have access to a
(50:35):
larger conversation wheresomeone else can also listen to
it and get into thisconversation and into this space
with them.
So thank you so so much forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
So so much.
I really appreciate it, it andI think that's right.
Hashem, we also gonna make aneven more extensive workbook and
have groups in communities beable to do like a book, a group
on a weekly basis when we havelike a mentor, someone who
understands it and gets it andworks with us and run these
things to like break it down,because I know sometimes I read
and it's like so muchinformation.
I love that so so slowly.
(51:11):
Thank you so much, really,thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Thank you for joining me on this past hour.
I'm so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to spend
the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
at bodysoulscom Remember that'stwo S's.
(51:38):
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing, or if you
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful up.
Like to connect?
You can use the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
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