May 27, 2024 • 53 mins
Have you ever considered that your greatest talents could be your most profound responsibilities? This thought-provoking idea is just one of the many insights shared by our guest, Esti Hecht. Esti sheds new light on humility, not as self-deprecation but as a recognition of our gifts destined for a higher purpose, and how this understanding can transform parenting, dating, and our everyday exchanges with others.
We also delve into the broader implications of humility in life's grand tapestry. Whether you're seeking a life partner, setting parenting goals, or striving for personal growth, this episode equips you with a compass to navigate the journey with grace and purpose. Join us, and embrace the art of humility to enrich your life's voyage.
To sponsor an episode of Bodies & Souls, email us at
info@bodiessouls.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good morning and welcome to Buddies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBojarski.
Today we're going to talk abouta topic that I think is
misunderstood and oftenunderutilized.
So we're talking about humility, and there's so many
misconceptions and so many lackof understanding to the deep
reaching implications of havinghumility and being humble and
(00:25):
how that really affects ourrelationships with ourselves and
the world around us.
So today we have Esti Haft withus and we're going to talk
about what humility is how itlooks like when we're dating and
how it looks like when we'reraising children, and how it
looks like in our interpersonalrelationships and what it
actually even is.
So today we're going to explorethis topic in depth and
(00:47):
hopefully, through thisdiscussion we're going to deepen
our own humility and our ownunderstanding of why certain
conflicts and certaindisagreements arise and how to
navigate that.
So, without further ado, hereis Esty.
That so, without further ado,here is Esty.
(01:11):
Good morning.
So here is Esty Hecht.
Esty is an international speakerand educator and she is
responsible for a wide varietyof initiatives at Chabad in
Washington DC.
She directs a program calledHebrew School to you, which is a
boutique Hebrew school that isinnovative and brings Hebrew
school directly to the peoplewho it is important to.
She also co-founded and directsChabad American University,
where she oversees andcoordinates Jewish programming
(01:33):
for students on campus andnearby residents, esty.
Today we're talking about atopic that is so important and I
think the older I get, the moreI see the value and the
importance of this topic andthat's humility.
So can you just walk us througha little bit about what
humility is and why is this atopic that you feel passionate
(01:57):
about?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Sure, I think most people have a misunderstanding
of how humility works and how weshould approach the concepts of
humility and pride, which areoften seen as contradictory
ideas.
I remember when I was younger,when I was in middle school, we
went through a phase where ifyou were good at something, then
the cool thing to do, or theright thing to do, or the
(02:19):
socially appropriate thing to do, was to say, oh, I'm not good
at that.
So the girl in the class whosang the best and had the most
beautiful voice would say, oh, Ican't sing.
And the girl who drewbeautifully, you would ask her
oh, can you do scenery?
No, I can't draw.
And in our eighth grade minds,that was our understanding of
what humility was, and that waseach person making an effort to
be humble.
We must have had a teacher whoreally inspired us at the start
(02:42):
of the year on this concept.
But but the truth is thathumility, at least as I
understand it from everythingthat I've learned over the years
, is recognizing the talents andthe gifts that we're given, but
recognizing exactly that, thatthey're given to us.
They're not something that wegot on our own, they're
something that is given to us byHashem, by God as a way for us
(03:02):
to sort of have a guidepost onwhere we're supposed to be
contributing in the world.
Each of us is put in the worldfor a reason.
Each of us is put into thisworld with a mission, and there
are so many things the world isour oyster we could accomplish.
Really anything is open toanybody today, and so I think
that when we recognize ourtalents and our gifts and what
we have in life as sort of aguidepost telling us, oh, this
(03:24):
is where Hashem wants youcontributing, I think that
really integrates lots ofdifferent ideas, both in
Chassidus and Moser and manyother parts of you know
approaches to Yiddishkeit aboutwhat is humility, because
ultimately, I mean, the mostfamous example is that Moshe
Reina writes in the Torah abouthimself that Moshe was the most
humble person of all time, andthe contradiction that seems to
(03:45):
be there really doesn't existwhen we understand that Maisha
did what he did because he knewthat that's what Hashem wanted
of him.
He knew that's what the Jewishpeople needed of him and he
understood that whatever talentsor success he had was because
that is what Hashem madepossible for him With Maisha.
It was very obvious Maisha issomeone who, as the human being
(04:05):
side of Maisha, maisha had aspeech impediment.
Maisha was not of the people inthe same kind of way.
He had had a differentupbringing, he could have
thought I don't relate to thesepeople, and so it was very clear
that he was successful in whathe did because he recognized it
as his mission.
I think that we can apply thatalso to our lives, and I think
it's important to apply that toour lives for a number of
(04:26):
reasons, because I think thereare two different sides of the
coin.
Some people could benefitlearning this idea if they feel
really down about themselves andthey feel the need to always be
putting down how they are, whothey are, what it was that they
were given.
And so understanding thisnotion of humility might be
helpful in creating a morepositive outlook on life and
(04:48):
more appreciative and gratefuloutlook on life.
And those people who strugglewith being, for lack of better
wording, full of themselves andcoming into a room with a lot of
ego can benefit to understandthat actually, humility doesn't
mean you now have to squishyourself into a tiny ball and
not take up any space, but itmeans using all of those things
that you're excited that Hashemgave you and finding ways to use
(05:10):
them for what Hashem wants ofyou, and in doing so, I think
many people then end up comingacross a lot less egotistical
and just plain you know,talented or contributors or
things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So there's an element of self-actualization that goes
into humility.
Because if we understand thatwe are not actually it's not
about us, it's about what we'reput here to do, and a deeper
mission and a deeper focus, thenwe're going to not only
accomplish more but we're goingto also kind of remove the ego
out of the situation.
So it's a self-actual.
(05:44):
The ego does that make is thatwe're trying to yeah, I would
say exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I've never thought of it in those terms, but I think
it's sort of like you know, ifsomeone is chosen as an
astronaut to go out, to go toouter space right on some huge
mission NASA or SpaceX orwhichever when they're going
nonprofit or for-profit someonehas put in billions of dollars
into this mission that they arechosen for and in order to even
be chosen for that mission theyhave to have, I believe, to be
(06:11):
an astronaut you have to have abackground in flight in general,
being a pilot or being someonewho works in that part of the
scientific realm.
But you have to have studiedreally well, you have to be very
fit, you have to be somebodywho can think on the spot.
You're chosen from tons andtons of people and imagine that
person gets into his rocket orhis spaceship or he gets onto
(06:35):
the International Space Stationand he hears that he's supposed
to have a mission, he's supposedto do a certain research
project while he's on theInternational Space Station and
instead of saying, okay, whatare the coordinates and what are
the details and what are theelements that I'm supposed to
put in together, he says, oh me,I'm not so good like, I'm a
nobody right.
That's the wrong place and timefor him to be saying that.
(06:56):
I think for a reason we havethese, these ideas that, you
know, chassidus emphasizes allthe time, these ideas that our
neshama is an actual part ofHashem and the neshama struggles
to come into this world.
The neshama is not interestedin everything this world has to
offer.
It's almost an argument betweenthe neshama and God, or the
neshama and an angel saying youknow, I don't want to have to go
(07:19):
through this.
And why does it come into thisworld?
It comes into this worldbecause, similar to an astronaut
in outer space that cannotaccomplish anything unless it
has a spacesuit, then a shamancomes into this world because,
in order to actually dosomething, it needs to have a
body, it needs to exist in aphysical space.
I saw someone's WhatsApp statusrecently that said you are a
soul and you have a body.
(07:40):
I'm not sure if they made thatup or they got that from
somewhere, but that really hadme thinking that that's really
true.
It's imagine the astronaut goesto outer space and he thinks of
himself as the spacesuit.
You're not the spacesuit,you're not the body, you're not
your talents.
You are a mission in this world, and I think that that is an
incredibly empowering idea.
And when we remember that weare here on behalf of something
(08:03):
and for something, then we endup using those talents in a way
again that, yes, uses out ourpotential, pushes us to achieve
our potential.
The self-actualization is agreat way to phrase that piece,
but it allows us to pursueself-actualization from the
perspective of our neshamaversus pursuing
self-actualization for thepurpose of simply living a
(08:24):
pleasure-filled life.
I believe self-actualizationfor the purpose of simply living
a pleasure-filled life, Ibelieve self-actualization, I
think, is Maslow's idea.
I could be wrong.
First we start off trying tofeed our basic needs food and
sustenance, et cetera and theultimate happiness is when we
can achieve self-actualization.
But the truth is, humility iswhen we accomplish that same
(08:44):
goal from, but from a totallydifferent perspective okay.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So how does someone know whether they are being
humble?
How does someone go aboutexploring their relationship to
the humility in their life?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
sure, so I think anyone who knows me in person
probably think it's kind ofironic that I'm doing a episode
on humility, but this is howI've internalized these ideas.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
But are you being falsely humble right now?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Estee?
No, I would say not, I was justgoing to say, I think even
over-recording, even those whoare not seeing this Zoom video,
I think it comes across that I'ma pretty loud, conversational,
social, fairly confident kind ofperson, and so this is
something I've thought about alot and, like I said when I was
younger, whenever people talkabout the idea of humility or in
(09:31):
citizen, we use the term Bittl.
I really struggled with that,because I would then come into a
new situation, come into campor into seminary or into a new
setting, and I'd say, okay, youknow what, in this setting I'm
going to be the quiet person andI wouldn't open my mouth for
(09:51):
the first couple hours orhowever long that days and
however long that feeling lasted, and I would be miserable and
it was quite frankly like forlack of a better wording a
stupid way to approach newsituations, because what I've
learned over my lifetime is thatwhat I have to contribute is
exactly that, is the fact thatI'm, is the fact that I'm social
, is the fact that I'm confident, is the fact that I'm talking
it, and that those can bechanneled for good things.
So I'm giving an example ofmyself which may contradict
(10:13):
everything I'm saying, but I'mgiving it because I think it
makes it real that I think whenpeople struggle with this to
think about, when we say no tosomething, are we saying no
because really our plate is fullor really we genuinely believe
I am not good at this, right?
Like if someone asked me to sitquietly, I had to do this.
Actually, last week I had tointerview people for a video and
(10:33):
sit and listen for about 11hours straight.
That was something that wasrightfully very challenging for
me and may not be something thatI sign up to again.
But when something is asked ofus and we say no or we say I'm
not good enough or we feel theneed to diffuse a compliment or
a comment, we can stop and thinkwhy am I doing that?
Am I doing that becausegenuinely I believe that if I
(10:55):
applied myself, I reallywouldn't do a good job?
Or am I doing that as a way tosort of get out of a
responsibility?
Right?
I know I was just talking tosomebody recently who's putting
together one of the millionconnoisseurs on conferences
that's happening over the summer, and we were talking about this
notion that the same namesalways appear at these
conferences, right, and how dowe solve that?
(11:17):
And I gave maybe 10 differentsuggestions of people that
hadn't been used before for thisspecific situation and she said
to me she said look, when Ireach out to new people, the
challenge is they're alwaystelling me no, I'm not a speaker
.
And there are some people whotruly have social anxiety or
real stage fright and for themto get up really would be
physically painful.
(11:37):
But for many people, when theysay no, it's because it would be
stepping outside their comfortzone.
And I think that when we'reasking ourselves, is this me
really being humble, or is thisme being quite frankly
self-centered or selfish andtherefore putting myself before
the mission or putting myselfbefore what needs to get done?
I think the question is whatcomes out of it.
(12:00):
Do I end up doing more good ordo I end up stepping away from
doing good?
And am I coming at this becauseI genuinely do not have the
bandwidth?
Am I scared to stay in mycomfort zone or am I willing to
push myself just a little bit?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So humility is actually the opposite of
squishing yourself into a tinyspace, but rather stepping into
your full potential and in thatspace you are actually really
the most humble person.
So that's really reallyinteresting.
And I think, if we take thisconversation to the direction I
mean, you and I are both motherswho, I'm sure, think quite
(12:33):
deeply about parenting ourchildren and all the parts of
that.
So if we move this conversationinto how do we teach this to
our children, I think sometimesparents might struggle with the
generation that we're in now,which is, you know, positive
reinforcement.
Let's tell our kids they'redoing great all the time, versus
really telling our kids youknow, this is where you shine
(12:55):
and this is, you know, where wecould apply more, and this is,
you know, maybe let's put alittle bit of less effort into
this.
So I wonder, as a parent, howare we teaching our children
humility?
But is that?
Is that really like?
Is there some sort of likedichotomy between teaching
humility and the positivereinforcement that we see maybe
(13:16):
a little bit overdone in someinstances?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Sure.
So I think you and I are boththe product of, you know, the
gentle parenting era, in thesense that as we came of age to
parenting I don't know thatwe're exactly the same age, but
more or less as we becamecounselors in camp, teachers in
schools, parents of children orpeople who are just generally
responsible for others wedefinitely came to those
positions at an age where thenumber one motivator was praise
(13:43):
and the number one goal wasself-confidence.
And whenever people ask me anyparenting question, I always say
come to me when my kids are intheir 20s and they're adults,
and then I'll know whether mythought processes were correct
or incorrect.
But I've been thinking aboutthis more and more lately.
I had the opportunity to teachsome extracurricular activities
in my kid's school this yearthrough long story, but
(14:06):
something that I did almost onthe side, and I then forgot to
interact with lots of differentkids, about 400 kids in all
different ages of elementaryschool this year, in addition to
my own children and in additionto the Hebrew school kids that
I teach.
So I really feel like this yearespecially, I've had the
perspective of lots of differentages and lots of different
backgrounds, some religious,some not, some in private school
(14:30):
, some in public school, somethat I see more often, some that
I only see once a month, and Ithink you're right that maybe
we've gone.
You know, trends tend to go toextremes before they shift away,
and I think that maybe we arein a little bit in the time of
extreme when it comes to praiseand positive reinforcement.
But I think again, you have twosides of the coin when it comes
to teaching our childrenhumility.
(14:51):
I don't believe in putting downour kids.
I think that one of the reasonsgentle parenting took off so
much is because many peopleexperienced a lot of that and a
lot of criticism that didn'treally lead to healthy adulthood
or healthy childhood either.
But I think it's two sides ofthe same coin On one hand,
(15:12):
helping our kids develop thetalent that they do have.
When we see something that theyare indeed good at, not just
saying, oh, you have a nicevoice, let me get you voice
lessons, or you're good at dance, let's sign you up for a local
dance group.
Or you are good at art, let'ssign you up for a local art
class, because look how talentedyou are.
I think that can happen.
(15:32):
But the next piece of that iswow.
Look how musical you are.
Would you like to do musiclessons?
Would you like to do pianolessons?
Would you like to do voicelessons, if that's something
that is within your abilities toprovide.
But then the next step is almostmore crucial.
Hashem gave you lots of talents.
What do you think Hashem gaveyou those talents for?
Why do you think Hashem mighthave made you out of everyone in
(15:55):
your entire class?
Why do you think Hashem mighthave made you out of everyone in
your entire class?
Why do you think he made yougood at art?
Why do you think he made yougood at music?
How can you help your school,or how can you help your family,
or how can you help peoplearound you using the talents
that you have?
And I think that that's the key.
The key is not, therefore, noneof our kids should be given
opportunities, because it's toomuch and self-centered, but
(16:17):
again, is a self-actualization.
I like phrasing in that way.
I think I appreciate that is aself-actualization.
Is it coming from?
I want to be my happiest self.
I want to live out my potential.
Or is it I?
I, it is almost myresponsibility to develop my
potential, because hashem gaveit to me for a reason.
Hashem gave me every piece thatI had for a reason, and so I
think that small part with whenwe are giving to our children, I
(16:41):
think is really important, youknow, especially as they develop
the skill and they're maybe alittle bit older and you know
they could be 10, they could be11, they don't have to be 18 and
trying to do this for money.
But maybe, turning to the kidwho's playing been playing piano
for three, four years and andsaying you know what this Torah?
Maybe before we go to deliverShalach and Manas to all your
friends, why don't we see if wecan go for 20 minutes to an old
(17:03):
age home and you can sing therefor 20 minutes, or you can play
piano?
Or you know, why don't we govisit your bubby and hang up
drawings that you made for her?
It doesn't have to be thingsthat are elaborate, and now I'm
starting a business or now I'mstudying another gemach or
tzedakah organization.
I think, though, having thatcomponent of how are you going
to use the fact that you'redeveloping this talent to
(17:23):
benefit others, I think that, or, or you know, to bring yiddish
into the world, to bring lightinto the world to.
Why do you like having thatconversation with our children?
Why do you think hashem gaveyou this talent?
It doesn't have to feel heavy,it doesn't have to feel like a
responsibility that is a burdenon our shoulders, but it helps a
person also understand why theywould have been given a talent
(17:44):
if they're not going to be thebest.
And I think that often,especially when we're developing
externally measured talents, wecan get caught up in am I the
best?
Because the only way toshowcase a talent is in a
competition, is in a performance, is somewhere like that and I
think that sort of again framingit in why do we think Hashem
gave this to us?
How can we benefit those aroundus?
I think really helps.
(18:04):
And I also think to your otherpoint, and there's the other
side of the coin.
I think when we compliment kidsat things that they are not good
at, they don't believe a wordwe say.
That's when we start to hearyou're only saying that because
you're my mother.
And the truth is, if we do saythings because we're their
mother or because we're theirteacher, then our words lose
(18:25):
validity and then, when wereally do need to reinforce them
and we really do need to buildthem up.
Our words have become a littlebit cheap and meaningless.
So I do think if a kid comesover and asks you know, mom, did
you like my performance?
There's a difference betweensaying, oh my goodness, of
course I love your performance,you're the most amazing singer,
I think you're the best ever,and saying, you know, I love
(18:45):
that you like we're so energetic, you have such stage presence,
like that is so cool how you getup and you're so confident.
I think even that type ofphrase that is real about the
parts that they are good at Willmy kid read between the lines?
Probably, but will he thenunderstand that maybe his talent
is stage presence and maybeit's not?
Music and music was the way hecame to that, maybe.
(19:07):
And doesn't that teach ourchildren much more than our
generation has successfullylearned?
Our generation struggles a lotwith when we fail sort of
allowing that to define us,because if I'm always smart and
always successful and alwayswonderful and perfect, well then
the second I mess up.
I've just proven everybodywrong.
But if the compliments and thefeedback is about what I'm
(19:31):
actually good at, that I caninternalize I'm not good at
everything.
Let me put my energy where it'sactually either needed or come
naturally to me or is is I canstep out of my comfort zone and
develop.
But I think that that's okay.
I think the flip side.
I work a lot with collegestudents and one of the
challenges that they have istoday.
(19:52):
Anybody grows up believing,like I said earlier, the world
is your oyster, you could doanything, which is great when
you're a freshman and asophomore, your first couple
years, because the world is youroyster and you're exploring
lots of different things.
But then come the secondsemester of senior year, the
last couple months of school,almost every student I encounter
starts really, really feelingoverwhelmed.
(20:13):
Really feeling overwhelmedBecause if the entire world is
my oyster, if every single ideathat pops into my head is a good
one, if any talent I've everconsidered pursuing is something
that I believe I can excel at,that's overwhelming to the point
of being a paralysis of choice.
And so I think, as parents,when we can help our children
not limit themselves butunderstand where their true
(20:34):
talents are, I think we'reactually doing them a favor.
Limit themselves, butunderstand where their true
talents are.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I think we're actually doing them a favor.
It's so interesting.
So as I'm listening to you, I'mthinking two points.
I'm thinking, first of all,when we tell our kids, use your
talent for something, we'reactually giving them a vessel
for further pursuit.
So we're giving them a Kayleefor something.
So it's not this like, oh,you're so good at everything,
we're giving them something thatthey can tangibly come back to
in different ways and that's so,so, such a powerful thing that
(21:00):
it's not just oh, you're good,you're amazing, and the kid's
like I don't know.
And when you gave the exampleof the college students, I'm
like it works not just for thelittle kids but also for the
older kids, which is really,really great.
And the second thing I'mthinking is you spoke about
maybe not giving this generalcompliment, but complimenting
the truth in what we see, likewe see something good.
You were very perseverant.
Maybe you weren't very good atit, but you were very persistent
(21:22):
, you showed up, you did it eventhough it was difficult.
That's a great life skill,right that they can then
translate that in something elsethat will lead them to greater
success when they do find theiractual talent.
So it all kind of comes intothe same play where we're giving
them actual tools that willinvest themselves further down
the road.
So they don't have to be goodat everything just because their
(21:43):
brother is and they were giventhe same opportunity, but
they're going to learn todifferentiate and really step
into themselves.
As a Kala teacher, I wonder whatyour thoughts are about this.
I often deal with couples andI'm sure you do too, if you're
in college because they comeback.
I know that from my friends whoare in.
They do come back and you dodeal with them as married people
(22:07):
.
I wonder how humility playsitself out in relationships
specifically in conflict, inmatters of stress and pushback
that a couple might have betweenthemselves.
Where would you see the lack ofhumility or humility playing
itself out in more of arelationship like adult to adult
(22:30):
?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Sure, so I think this comes up.
I do teach college as well, soI know exactly what you're
talking about.
I, I think definitely in amarriage, but even in, you know,
if you have people who arepre-marriage but living with an
adult roommate right, andthey're in seminary, they're in
college, they're in Shiva, etcetera or somebody who is a
(22:53):
teenager sharing a room withtheir sibling, or somebody who's
you know I'm not sure if you'reputting this out when we're
recording, but we're about to gointo the summer and someone
who's going to be a counselor incamp, possibly with some
friends that they are close withand probably working with some
other staff members that notonly might they not know from
before, but might have a totallydifferent style of working and
of communication than them.
I think very often it comesback to the same concept we
(23:17):
discussed in the beginning thathumility is about recognizing
that there is a bigger picture.
So we spoke about with regardto talent and how do I show up
with my talents being the biggerpicture is Hashem put me in
this world.
Hashem wants to.
You know that we should createa dear bit of time, that we
should light up the world in allof the different parts and, you
know, discover all thedifferent sparks, et cetera, and
(23:38):
obviously ultimately bringMoshiach and bring the world to
its final goal, and that each ofus does that through our
talents, through the gifts thatwe're given.
But I think, within that wehave this idea of remembering
the bigger mission, rememberingthat there is always a bigger
picture that I am an importantpart of.
(23:58):
I'm an important part of apicture, but I am not the whole
picture, right?
The famous idea of in onepocket carrying Bishrili Nebar
Ailam and another pocketcarrying that, yes, the whole
world couldn't exist without me,otherwise Hashem wouldn't have
created me in this moment.
But at the same time, I am notthe whole world, right?
And and how do we hold thosetwo things?
So, I think, in a very practicalway, when it comes to
(24:21):
relationships of any sort youknow a couple or like any of the
examples I mentioned earlier, Ithink that we come to get stuck
in our narrative and get stuckin our side of the argument and
we forget what, the what, thegoal is, everything from
something simple, like Iremember once when I was a staff
member in a in a camp, andthere was a whole huge fight
(24:42):
between two different groupswithin the staff.
What was the fight?
The fight was about what exactcolor orange our staff
sweatshirt was going to be.
Was it going to be a burntorange or a neon orange?
And half the girls were wantedthe neon and half the girls
wanted the burnt orange and, asa result, it was creating this
whole argument.
And really, what was our goal?
Our goal was a cute sweatshirtto come away with.
(25:03):
We almost didn't end up withsweatshirt, or could have ended
up not getting the sweatshirt ifthe argument had continued
longer, because we wouldn't haveordered it in time.
Right?
So that's.
I'm giving a very simple andsilly example, because people
often get defensive if you giveexamples that are too close to
home.
But any couple that's beenmarried for any amount of time
knows that we can get intoarguments over things that
(25:25):
really are not.
We start arguing over detailsand that's not really what we
want.
So I'll give an example.
Your husband comes home at 6.30.
He was supposed to come home at6 o'clock.
He forgot to text you.
He walks in the door at 6.30.
He was supposed to come home atsix o'clock.
He forgot to text you.
He walks in the door at 6.30.
Now you've prepared dinner anddinner was warm at six o'clock.
And you put an effort at sixo'clock to make sure that the
dinner was warm because you feellike you've sort of not made
(25:46):
food in a month and you've beeneating cereal and you've been
eating cereal.
So you specifically tried todayto get things right because you
felt like, oh, I want toreconnect, I want to show him
that I care, I've just beenexhausted and he walks in at
6.30.
Now, your goal was to connectwith your husband.
The reason you made dinner wasbecause you wanted him to feel
cared about.
But if anyone is like anybody Iknow, if anyone listening is
(26:09):
like anybody I know very manypeople the first thing their
husband walks to the door isgoing to be why are you late?
And if you're late, why didn'tyou text me?
Didn't you know I made dinner?
Didn't you know that?
I told you 50,000 times thatit's fine if you're running late
.
I'm a very tolerant person, I'man understanding person.
But at least text me.
(26:29):
Now in those 60 seconds, whathave you done?
Yes, your husband nowunderstands.
He's supposed to be home at sixo'clock but, short of inventing
a time machine, he me nowunderstands.
He's supposed to be home at sixo'clock but, short of inventing
a time machine, he can't goback and actually accomplish the
details of what you wanted atsix.
But if you stop in that momentand you say, okay, what I
actually want is to connect, soI'm a little annoyed you weren't
home earlier, but guess what?
I made this really deliciousdinner.
It was warm at six.
I guess we'll eat it togethercold and you create a connective
(26:51):
moment.
I think that's again remindingourselves of the big picture.
And so I think one of the mostuseful practical tools that I
wish I remembered who told meearly on, right before I got
married or right after I gotmarried that I find is one of
the most useful communicationtools is the ability, in the
middle of an argument, to saycan we start again or can we
(27:14):
press pause or let's stop for asecond?
What do you actually want rightnow and what do I actually want
right now?
And when you first start doingthat, it can feel really
scripted, whether it's with yourroommate, whether it's with
your friend in school, whetherit's with your colleague,
whether it's with your spouse.
But the ability to do that to,in that moment, not just get all
worked up into which side ofthe argument he's right and I'm
(27:35):
right and she's right andthey're right.
But to stop and say, okay, yousaid, I said okay.
Can we just pause for onesecond?
What I meant was just I reallywould like to sit with you for a
dinner.
We haven't done that in a while.
It doesn't matter really who'sright.
It doesn't matter most of thetime who's wrong, unless someone
has been out to get you andspecifically has tried to harm
(27:58):
you.
That's not 99% of our arguments.
99% of our arguments aregetting stuck in the details,
and so humility, I would say,applies to marriage, applies
that this conversation is partof a broader picture.
Any conversation we havespecifically in marriage, but
(28:19):
any conversation we have withanyone, is either drawing us
closer together or pushing usfurther apart.
There's almost never very littleexception are there neutral
conversations with our spouse,with our child, with our
colleague, and when we're workedup, to take a moment, literally
take an actual deep breath, andjust be able to say can we
(28:39):
press pause for a second?
Can we start again To recognizethat this conversation is part
of a broader relationship?
And if that broaderrelationship matters to me, then
I can take that same conceptthat I take with talent or with
how much space I take up, etcetera, and say what am I
actually here for?
What am I actually trying toaccomplish?
And it's not a perfect piece ofadvice, because you have to
(29:01):
have the presence of mind enoughin the moment to remember to
pause.
But the more you can make it ahabit and the more you can make
it sort of an easy tool in yourtoolbox, just like we all do
with using I statements insteadof you statements, or we
statements instead of youstatements, or sandwiching and
saying a positive and a positive, and giving the criticism in
the middle and all of thesethings that, when we first hear
them or use them, sound superscripted but then just become
(29:23):
part of how we operate.
With enough practice, I thinkthat that's a practical way that
I've seen work to take thisconcept of humility and being
able to see the bigger pictureand bring it into our, our real
day to day behind closed doorslife.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I love that.
And, by the way, just so thatyou said pause for a second,
studies show that you actually,if you're at that level of like
cortisol and arousal and angerand stress from something, the
timeframe that you're supposedto wait to respond is three
minutes.
It takes that long for yourbrain to be like okay, I'm not
that angry, I can manage this,so that's the timeframe.
So if anyone's listening, theywant like a timer.
(30:01):
Go to the bathroom, likeliterally, the bathroom's a
great tool.
Go to the bathroom Like onesecond.
I just need the bathroom threeminutes.
You should be fine after that.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
For some people who are sensory.
So yes, if this can be helpful,even in 15 seconds, I can only
imagine how much more helpful ifyou did it fully.
For those who are more likeneed a tactile way to do this
chewing a piece of gum untilit's lost its flavor, or taking
a piece of chocolate and suckingit instead of chewing it, or
taking a nutty chew, becausethose things take forever to
(30:30):
actually eat and swallow thoseare all ways to sort of step
into your room, do that thing.
It also gives you somethingelse to concentrate on for a
second, and then you know theycontinue.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
So I'm listening to your conversation and I'm just
trying to put these piecestogether, because we said a lot
of points and I think that whenpeople think about humility
which is where this conversationstarted with was what is the
misconception?
The misconception is that theopposite of humility would be
self confidence, so that the theoriginal like misconception
(31:03):
about humility is humilities onone spectrum and self confidence
and a feeling of I can do itall is the opposite.
However, now through thisconversation, I think if we took
self-confidence, the oppositeof self-confidence would
actually be quite simply thelack of self-worth.
But then, if we explorehumility, the opposite of
humility would be ego, becausehumility is the opposite of ego
(31:29):
and it's not the opposite ofself-confidence at all.
They're two completely separateconcepts.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
I think, in fact, self-confidence and humility
could.
They're two completely separateconcepts.
I think, in fact,self-confidence and humility
could be seen as almost synonyms.
And I think, you know, forthose who are tempted to push
back, I would say we live in thegeneration that has
complimented our kids more thanany other generation.
I mean, I didn't get to be afly on the wall in the times of
the desert or the times of theBasin Mi'kdash or anything else,
(31:55):
but if I had to take a guess,that would be my pretty
confident guess.
And yet we also live in ageneration that has, certainly
in the Western world, thehighest rates ever of depression
and anxiety and relatedself-harm.
And so I think we have clearlygotten something wrong.
(32:16):
And maybe part of what we'vegotten wrong is, you know, when
you talk about Pesach, aboutHametz and Matzah, and what's
the difference between Hametzand Matzah is, hametz is
something that is risen andMatzah is something that is flat
.
And in the Hebrew letters wehave this with the ches and the
he right.
One keeps all the air in, oneis literally full of hot air and
(32:36):
the other has a space to allowthe air out, and that's why it
is flat.
When we talk about yeshos, wetalk about ego.
We're talking about having abunch of hot air, a bunch of
emptiness that is inflatingsomething.
Bread looks like it's very bigbut all it takes is a little bit
of pressure to flatten it.
When we fill our kids withpraise, that is empty.
That is just because we'repraising but isn't actually
(32:59):
based on something, and wepraise them just for the sake of
praising them, but not toencourage them to actually use
what they have to accomplish inthe world.
I'm not talking about formerSoviet Union, where if you were
good at piano, you have topractice seven hours a day, or
if you want to become an Olympicfigure skater, you have to
practice 25 hours a day, orwhatever.
I'm talking about just regular,normal people.
When we fill them with praise,that is hot air.
(33:21):
We actually need to be oppositeof self-confidence, right, and I
think that that actuallyheavily contributes to a lot of
the negative mental states ornegative emotional states that
we see.
It's not the exclusivecontributor and no parent should
ever blame themselves, becauseevery person, just like every
person, is born with certaintalents.
Every person is born withdifferent challenges and every
(33:43):
person has their journey in thisworld.
Alongside that, I think thatwhen we give our kids not just
compliments but direction onreal things, when the air that
is there not just compliments,but direction on real things
when the air that is there, thatis filling them up, is real, I
think then you end up in a spacewhere self-confidence and
humility at the very leastdovetail or go hand in hand, but
(34:06):
in bigger picture actuallybecome two sides of the same
coin.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's so interesting and I think that so many of the
examples that you gave arebringing this point across.
So let's move the conversationaway from relationships that are
established and away fromchildren and mothering.
What if one of our listeners orseveral of our listeners are
listening and they're like look,I'm not a mom, I don't have
(34:33):
kids, I'm not in a relationship,but I am dating?
Where does humility play in thedating world, both in choosing
a partner and in yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Sure.
So I think there's a studentwho actually just came to visit
recently and he was one of thevery first students that we met
and he, he came back and hegraduated years ago and now has
his marriage, has a family, andit's always a pleasure to see
him.
But my husband and I met upwith him in Israel a few years
(35:04):
ago when we were visiting that'swhere he now lives, and as we
were sitting and talking to him,we asked him if you had to say
one thing that you remember outof all the endless hours you
spent in our house, what would,what would you share?
So he said, you know, withoutmissing a beat, he said I
remember it was once late atnight and I was.
(35:25):
It was Friday night, maybe itwas 1230, one o'clock in the
morning, way after the Shabbosmeal was over.
And he said, and I was askingyou guys, he's a Kayan.
And he said I was asking youguys, all the different laws, am
I allowed to marry this kind ofperson?
Am I allowed to marry that kindof person?
What if this background?
What if that background?
What if I know?
What if I don't know?
Et cetera.
And he said Esty, you areexhausted.
We're sitting on the floor.
(35:45):
This was the first couple ofyears I on the floor and you
were exhausted.
You turned to me and you saidhow about, instead of thinking
so much about what the personyou marry needs to be to be
qualified to marry, you work onbecoming the kind of person that
person is going to want tomarry?
And he said I think about thatall the time.
Now I said it out of a point ofexhaustion.
(36:05):
I was done with theconversation, but hearing him
say that back to me reminded meof what I believe is a fairly
important point, which isnowadays especially, many of us
come to the dating conversationwith.
Here's my list here are all thethings I need, and it's
important to know what you need.
And it's important to look at,you know, for girls, look at
(36:28):
male role models in your lifeand vice versa, and see what are
the things that you respect,what are the things that are
important to you, what are thethings that you sort of take for
granted that that is the maleor female role, and that's an
important part of theconversation, but it is not the
whole conversation, and what Imean by that is, alongside,
making that list of what you mayneed from the other person.
(36:48):
Think about what are youuniquely suited to give in a
relationship?
What can you bring to themarriage?
What can you bring to themarriage?
What can you bring to the table?
Not because it's a give andtake, not because it has to be
even, but because when you goout with somebody, alongside
looking for whether they canfill your needs, it's important
(37:09):
for you to be able to see howare you going to be able to give
to them.
First of all, because, tocreate an emotionally healthy
relationship, both people haveto feel like they're receiving
for sure, but both people alsohave to feel like they have what
to contribute, that there isn'tthis huge gap between one and
the other in terms of what they,what they can give.
I think that that's one piece.
I also think, taking a stepeven further back than that, it
(37:30):
can be incredibly helpful notjust to think about who is the
person I want to marry, but I Ido this sometimes when I speak
in some of the high schools orseminaries I will stop and I'll
say stop, and for the next threeminutes it's going to be quiet
(37:51):
and I want you to picture inyour head, in your mind, close
your eyes, if you're comfortabledoing so, and picture in your
mind your home in three years'time, in five years' time, in 10
years' time.
What does it look likePhysically?
What's around you?
Your spouse walks in the door.
What is the energy that theybring along with them?
What is the energy that youreciprocate to them?
How are they dressed and howdoes that reflect who they are?
(38:14):
Are they dressed like abusiness person?
Do they just come in from a run?
What's going on in your life?
What is the surrounding like?
Is it peaceful?
Is it organized?
Is it messy, but in a fun chaoskind of way?
Is it messy in a way thatstresses you out?
Are there children around ornot?
Do you have other familiesliving down the hall or nearby?
(38:34):
To really try and picture andI'll go through a bunch of
different questions like thisreally try and picture the life
that you envision and then stopand think what are you currently
doing to try and get yourselfthere, or what are you blaming
on the fact that you can't getthere?
And, of course, many peoplework very hard in life and are
(38:55):
not able to have the bracha ofsuccess in the areas that they
want.
But I think stopping andthinking about what part do I
play or can I play, to do thehishtabla side of things, I
think is important, and perhapsmost important at that stage
where you're not just choosing alife partner a husband, a wife
but you're also choosing adirection of life.
You're choosing, you're notjust choosing a life partner a
husband, a wife but you'reyou're also choosing a direction
(39:16):
of life.
You're choosing, you'recommitting to this other person
a certain lifestyle, and lifemay change and I'm old enough to
have watched many people'slives start out one way and
shift another way, based ontheir dynamics, based on their
life experience, based on thecurve balls that hashem throws
their way.
But to take responsibility in away that I don't think Right,
but to take responsibility in away that I don't think we're
often asked to, to bringyourself in that direction,
(39:58):
no-transcript, and see what am Icurrently doing, to take myself
in the direction that I wouldlike, what is my again, what is
my bigger picture that I'mworking towards and that can
also help a person understandwhether the things that don't
match up with their list aredeal breakers or not.
(40:20):
Because if I have this list andI'm sticking to the list and
the list and the list and thelist.
But I said I want someone who's5'10 and he's only 5'9.
Is that a deal breaker?
Am I settling?
I'm giving obviously a verysuperficial example.
I'm hoping that no one's supertriggered by that one, but I
think that, again, stepping backa second, I want someone who I
feel I can literally look up toright.
(40:42):
Is that where the height thingis coming from?
I want someone who lookssimilar to what men in my life
have looked like.
Right, I want somebody who.
There was someone in my life whowas very large and domineering,
and I want someone who gives atotally different energy.
Then it doesn't matter if he's5'9 or 5'10.
It matters what the reason?
There's a book that I once sawlaying around in my parents'
(41:04):
house called the Question Behindthe Question.
What is the reason behind thereason?
What is the desire behind thedesire?
And so I think, again taking astep back, to summarize two
pieces One is stopping andthinking not just about what do
you want from someone, but whatcan you give to someone.
And, second of all, to thinknot just the nitty gritty
(41:25):
details, but bigger picture.
What do you envision your lifethat you're working towards.
Again, only Hashem canguarantee success.
But what life are you workingtowards, what is your big
picture and what are the stepsthat are going to get you there?
And it's going to give you alot of insight into how you, how
you find, with the abish'shealth, someone who's going to
(41:46):
be able to, you know, go alongthat journey with you and you
can support each other throughthat journey so interesting
because you had a wholeconversation now about dating.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
But the thread that still combines all these
different points about lookingfor a spouse, finding a partner,
etc.
Etc.
Is this stepping into what yourrole is in life.
Where is your space that Hashemhas sent you into this world to
accomplish something?
And it all goes back to thesame thing, because that is
really what humility is about.
(42:14):
It's about this larger ticketitem of who you are in the
larger scheme rather than whoyou are in your own little space
of you know self fulfillment tothe exclusion of a godly
mission.
So humility is this reallygreat thing that has come into
the conversation, both asparents and as partners, and as
(42:35):
someone who's dating and assomeone in really any role,
because all these examples willin some place translate to any
role that we have.
Right, are we approachingthings with an awareness of us
fulfilling our mission to thebest of our ability again and
again, and again and again?
Or are we approaching thingsfrom a perspective of I need to
(42:55):
take care of myself?
Speaker 2 (42:59):
So a hundred percent.
And if I can add just one morepiece, we have also this
sometimes people use thelanguage of like an olive school
and a base school or a top tierfucker or a top girl or things
like that, and when we'recomparing ourselves to she got a
guy from this kind of familyand he got a girl from that kind
of seminary or things like that, it's, it's really, it's not
(43:23):
just superficial, it'sridiculous, because diminishing
yes, and if I realize that, whatam I here for, what do I want
out of my life, then it'sirrelevant, completely and
entirely irrelevant to anyoneelse.
I know Mary, to the extent thatI can learn from married, to
the extent that I can learn fromtheir example, to the extent
that I can learn from theirexample what I want, what I
don't want.
You know a red flag that maybecame out for someone?
(43:45):
They didn't notice, things likethat, yes, it's helpful to be
aware, but it's totallyirrelevant to anybody of my
classmates or any of my friendsor any of my family members
married, because if I understandthat my mission is different
than theirs and I can developclarity on what my mission is in
this world, then it mattersthat I find someone who matches
with that, not who matches withmy.
(44:06):
It's not just about oh, don'tbe jealous, because the Avery
Strat has a plan.
It's about, if you're lookingto paint pottery today, you go
to this pottery place it's truefor you or create your own, or
all of them always have thesecute pun names about painting.
If you're looking to go paintthere and I say, oh, but you
know what that paint?
When you stick it under water,if it's not glazed yet, it
washes off really easily.
Let me give you permanentmarkers.
Are permanent markers?
(44:26):
Do they?
Do they stay longer, like onyour skin or on paper?
Yeah, but is that going to helpyou with a nice painted pottery
piece?
Try saying that five times fast.
Absolutely not, because that'snot what is needed for that goal
.
However, if I walk into an artspace and I don't know what I'm
looking for and someone says tome, oh, these markers, they're
(44:47):
super permanent, they're goingto stick really well, I'm going
to take the permanent markers,I'm going to try drawing with
them on my pottery that I end updoing, and it's going to come
off in a kiln.
I don't know.
Actually, I don't know enoughabout kilns to know if that's
the case, but I'm certainly notgoing to get that nice blazed
look that I'm looking for,because I didn't have my goal
before I took what I thought Ineeded.
And so I think, applying that,whether it's to dating, whether
(45:08):
it's about what schools a persongets into, what seminary the
person gets into, where a it'snot about what everyone else is
doing.
Not because we have to work onjealousy and not because the
apes drive the planet Sometimesit works out for me and it
doesn't work out for the otherperson but because my mission is
different.
If it wasn't different, hashemwould not have created me.
Every single neshama is in thisworld for what it needs to be
(45:37):
accomplishing in its environment, exactly given the exact family
, gifts, talents, challengesthat it is supposed to have.
I'll give.
I think I mentioned this to youbefore we got on this call, but
I recently downloaded an app andthe app was an exercise app and
it asked me like 20 questionsbefore it even allowed me to
like choose a membership planand before I could even start my
free trial.
20 different questions how oldare you?
What is your current weight?
Is your goal to lose weight andhow much weight?
(45:58):
And, if not, you know what areyour exercise, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
When it finally gave me youknow, or for you suggested
workout, or whatever it was.
I don't know if they give thesame workout to every single
person, but I definitely feltmore compelled to actually try
and do the workout when I feltlike it was tailor-made for me
and it sort of popped into myhead that that's how the Avery
(46:18):
strip puts every single one ofus in this world.
We don't have to fill out aquestionnaire because he created
us right.
But we're coming into thisworld with exactly a tailor-made
workout plan.
And if we recognize that, weare so much more likely to
engage, to engage fully, toengage consistently, when we
recognize it's created for us.
And so it's not about jealousyor it will be good in the end,
(46:39):
but it's about looking for well,why am I here?
What is my mission here?
What can I do or what?
How can I surround myself toachieve that mission?
And if I'm not in thatsituation maybe that's a shantah
my mission's a little bitdifferent than I thought it was.
If I'm not good at singing,probably I mean in my case,
probably, regardless of the casebut if I'm not an excellent
singer, my mission in this worldprobably wasn't to be, you know
(47:01):
, fulfilling the mitzvah ofbeing a Sameach HaSamechala on a
nightly basis.
That's probably not only isthat not where I'm supposed to
make my money, but that'sprobably not why Hashem put me
in this world.
And by not making me afantastic singer, it's not that
well.
I have some talents, my friendhas some talent.
Hashem is helping me understandthat that's not where I'm
supposed to be putting my effort.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Wow.
So you just turned everythingway on his head.
So there's no, and I think thatwhoever's listening, I think
the message and I don't know ifyou said it in these words, so I
think it's important to saythese words is that there isn't
actually a top tier kid, abetter kid or a worse kid, a
better spouse or a worse spouse,a better school or worse school
(47:39):
, a better person or any otherperson.
You need to just find the rightfit for you, whether that's am
I finding the right fit forwhere I'm supposed to shine, or
have I found the spouse that'sthe right fit for me, or are my
children in the right school forthem?
There's just a right fit.
There isn't right or wrong.
And if we change this dialogue,by the way, in our community, I
(48:01):
would venture to say we wouldall be happier and more
well-adjusted.
There would be less of a senseof well.
In order for me to feelfulfilled, I need to get into X
Y school.
My kids need to accomplishwhatever.
I mean, I don't know if youhave kids who've done bar
mitzvahs, but there's a wholeculture around bar mitzvahs that
your kids have to do a seiyamand they have to lean and they
have to give a pilpul and ifyour kid does that, wow, they're
(48:25):
amazing.
Right, and your kid did theentire checklist Like that's a
big ego boost.
But is it the right fit for yourkid?
Is your kid going to be able tocome to the bar mitzvah with
joy and with love and withconnection and really shining in
the way that they need to?
It's a question to ask, andit's a question that really
comes back to the crux of thisconversation, which is stepping
(48:46):
into your godly mission.
And in the space where you stepinto your godly mission, you do
have self-confidence becauseyou have great awareness of what
that mission is and whereyou're going to, with humility
and with awareness, define whatyou're supposed to do and really
step into that space with allof you, and that's a really,
really beautiful way ofredefining humility.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
To your point about bar mitzvah.
Again, you can go back towhat's your goal?
Is your goal that this kid isgoing to have a positive
association with the shul?
Is he going to have a positiveassociation with independent
learning?
Is he going to have a positiveassociation with his parentsul
is going to have a positiveassociation with independent
learning?
Is going to have a positiveassociation with with his
parents as he enters his teenageyears?
Is he going to feel like tyrais a place where he can shine,
or is?
Is your goal to keep up withyour friends?
Is that really what's going onunderneath?
(49:29):
Because if so, probably theanswer to all the above is he's
not going to end up with thosethings that we all want for our
children, and so this applies toliterally every single
challenge we encounter in ourlives.
I think can be reframed in thiskind of way.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Right, and just to finish the example, like if
we're saying it depends on thegoal, the goal is going to
differ parent to parent.
One parent is going to push akid because they do need to have
that push to get theself-fulfillment and one parent
is like, no, it's about the joyand that have that push to get
the self-fulfillment, and oneparent is like, no, it's about
the joy and that's where you'regoing to have to make an
individual decision.
I think this is a really greatexample because parents do
(50:04):
struggle with how far am Ipushing a kid, how far am I not,
if I want my kid to reachcertain goals?
So it goes back to where is thegoal?
Where is the kid going to shinewhere?
What is that person's destinylike?
What's the journey that Hashemhas placed that neshama into
this world for?
And as parents, we try to pushus, our kids, and that's okay
also, and it's going to lookdifferent person, sure?
(50:26):
I actually think that was areally great example and I'm
glad back to it.
Esty, as we finish our timetogether, is there one thought
that you would like to leave ourlisteners with?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I find that I often come back to the same thought,
which is if there's anyone whoneeds to hear this and I think
really all of us need to hearthis every day which is we are
exactly where we need to beright now.
Tomorrow we might be somewhereelse, we might work to get to
somewhere else, but at thisexact moment, for whatever
reason, we are exactly where weneed to be.
(50:59):
If not, then we would besomewhere else.
If we were supposed to be in adifferent family, we would have
been born into that family.
That's not saying anyone elsecould have messed up for us,
like they should know exactlywhich address we're supposed to
go to If we were supposed to beborn with more money or less
money, or more religiosity orless religiosity.
Wherever we come from isexactly how we were supposed to
be here, and where we are rightnow, where anyone listening is
(51:21):
right now, is exactly where,right now, you need to be.
Now.
Tomorrow you might need to besomewhere else.
In an hour you might need towork towards getting somewhere
else, but no individual personis a mistake and no one is
accidentally somewhere, and Ithink that the more we
internalize that, then we areled to think you know well, why
am I here?
This is not where I would haveexpected to be, or this is not
(51:44):
what I would have expected theindustry would want from me, and
I think that that's to me,that's one of the most
empowering thoughts, I think, isto really recognize Hashem,
really tailor makes every singleperson's life, every single
person's challenges, everysingle person's talents.
They're all there so that youcan live how you were supposed
to live.
And so I think it's the samethought that I repeated many
(52:07):
times over the last hour or sothat we've spent together.
But I genuinely feel that thatframing makes a lot of life a
lot more enjoyable, a lot moremeaningful, a lot more
purposeful and ultimately,hopefully, if we all live like
that brings us to, you know,bring us to Gula, in a literal
sense.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Amazing.
Thank you so much, Esty.
Thank you so much for having me.
My pleasure.
If anyone wants to reach Esty,I'm going to put her contact
information in the show notes.
Definitely click there, reachout for her.
She does Chabaton, she doesspeaking engagements.
I actually I'm going to finishoff saying this I actually got
the recommendation for thispodcast from my niece who heard
her, and so full circle, like,definitely definitely reach out
(52:50):
to Esty, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you very much for havingme on your podcast and thank you
to whoever has listened all theway to the end.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I love that.
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you for joining me onthis past hour.
I'm so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to spend
the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
(53:23):
at bodysoulscom Remember that'stwo S's.
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing, or if you
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
Good morning and welcome to Buddies and Souls.
Your host for today is RivkiBojarski.
Today we're going to talk abouta topic that I think is
misunderstood and oftenunderutilized.
So we're talking about humility, and there's so many
misconceptions and so many lackof understanding to the deep
reaching implications of havinghumility and being humble and
(00:25):
how that really affects ourrelationships with ourselves and
the world around us.
So today we have Esti Haft withus and we're going to talk
about what humility is how itlooks like when we're dating and
how it looks like when we'reraising children, and how it
looks like in our interpersonalrelationships and what it
actually even is.
So today we're going to explorethis topic in depth and
(00:47):
hopefully, through thisdiscussion we're going to deepen
our own humility and our ownunderstanding of why certain
conflicts and certaindisagreements arise and how to
navigate that.
So, without further ado, hereis Esty.
That so, without further ado,here is Esty.
(01:11):
Good morning.
So here is Esty Hecht.
Esty is an international speakerand educator and she is
responsible for a wide varietyof initiatives at Chabad in
Washington DC.
She directs a program calledHebrew School to you, which is a
boutique Hebrew school that isinnovative and brings Hebrew
school directly to the peoplewho it is important to.
She also co-founded and directsChabad American University,
where she oversees andcoordinates Jewish programming
(01:33):
for students on campus andnearby residents, esty.
Today we're talking about atopic that is so important and I
think the older I get, the moreI see the value and the
importance of this topic andthat's humility.
So can you just walk us througha little bit about what
humility is and why is this atopic that you feel passionate
(01:57):
about?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Sure, I think most people have a misunderstanding
of how humility works and how weshould approach the concepts of
humility and pride, which areoften seen as contradictory
ideas.
I remember when I was younger,when I was in middle school, we
went through a phase where ifyou were good at something, then
the cool thing to do, or theright thing to do, or the
(02:19):
socially appropriate thing to do, was to say, oh, I'm not good
at that.
So the girl in the class whosang the best and had the most
beautiful voice would say, oh, Ican't sing.
And the girl who drewbeautifully, you would ask her
oh, can you do scenery?
No, I can't draw.
And in our eighth grade minds,that was our understanding of
what humility was, and that waseach person making an effort to
be humble.
We must have had a teacher whoreally inspired us at the start
(02:42):
of the year on this concept.
But but the truth is thathumility, at least as I
understand it from everythingthat I've learned over the years
, is recognizing the talents andthe gifts that we're given, but
recognizing exactly that, thatthey're given to us.
They're not something that wegot on our own, they're
something that is given to us byHashem, by God as a way for us
(03:02):
to sort of have a guidepost onwhere we're supposed to be
contributing in the world.
Each of us is put in the worldfor a reason.
Each of us is put into thisworld with a mission, and there
are so many things the world isour oyster we could accomplish.
Really anything is open toanybody today, and so I think
that when we recognize ourtalents and our gifts and what
we have in life as sort of aguidepost telling us, oh, this
(03:24):
is where Hashem wants youcontributing, I think that
really integrates lots ofdifferent ideas, both in
Chassidus and Moser and manyother parts of you know
approaches to Yiddishkeit aboutwhat is humility, because
ultimately, I mean, the mostfamous example is that Moshe
Reina writes in the Torah abouthimself that Moshe was the most
humble person of all time, andthe contradiction that seems to
(03:45):
be there really doesn't existwhen we understand that Maisha
did what he did because he knewthat that's what Hashem wanted
of him.
He knew that's what the Jewishpeople needed of him and he
understood that whatever talentsor success he had was because
that is what Hashem madepossible for him With Maisha.
It was very obvious Maisha issomeone who, as the human being
(04:05):
side of Maisha, maisha had aspeech impediment.
Maisha was not of the people inthe same kind of way.
He had had a differentupbringing, he could have
thought I don't relate to thesepeople, and so it was very clear
that he was successful in whathe did because he recognized it
as his mission.
I think that we can apply thatalso to our lives, and I think
it's important to apply that toour lives for a number of
(04:26):
reasons, because I think thereare two different sides of the
coin.
Some people could benefitlearning this idea if they feel
really down about themselves andthey feel the need to always be
putting down how they are, whothey are, what it was that they
were given.
And so understanding thisnotion of humility might be
helpful in creating a morepositive outlook on life and
(04:48):
more appreciative and gratefuloutlook on life.
And those people who strugglewith being, for lack of better
wording, full of themselves andcoming into a room with a lot of
ego can benefit to understandthat actually, humility doesn't
mean you now have to squishyourself into a tiny ball and
not take up any space, but itmeans using all of those things
that you're excited that Hashemgave you and finding ways to use
(05:10):
them for what Hashem wants ofyou, and in doing so, I think
many people then end up comingacross a lot less egotistical
and just plain you know,talented or contributors or
things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So there's an element of self-actualization that goes
into humility.
Because if we understand thatwe are not actually it's not
about us, it's about what we'reput here to do, and a deeper
mission and a deeper focus, thenwe're going to not only
accomplish more but we're goingto also kind of remove the ego
out of the situation.
So it's a self-actual.
(05:44):
The ego does that make is thatwe're trying to yeah, I would
say exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I've never thought of it in those terms, but I think
it's sort of like you know, ifsomeone is chosen as an
astronaut to go out, to go toouter space right on some huge
mission NASA or SpaceX orwhichever when they're going
nonprofit or for-profit someonehas put in billions of dollars
into this mission that they arechosen for and in order to even
be chosen for that mission theyhave to have, I believe, to be
(06:11):
an astronaut you have to have abackground in flight in general,
being a pilot or being someonewho works in that part of the
scientific realm.
But you have to have studiedreally well, you have to be very
fit, you have to be somebodywho can think on the spot.
You're chosen from tons andtons of people and imagine that
person gets into his rocket orhis spaceship or he gets onto
(06:35):
the International Space Stationand he hears that he's supposed
to have a mission, he's supposedto do a certain research
project while he's on theInternational Space Station and
instead of saying, okay, whatare the coordinates and what are
the details and what are theelements that I'm supposed to
put in together, he says, oh me,I'm not so good like, I'm a
nobody right.
That's the wrong place and timefor him to be saying that.
(06:56):
I think for a reason we havethese, these ideas that, you
know, chassidus emphasizes allthe time, these ideas that our
neshama is an actual part ofHashem and the neshama struggles
to come into this world.
The neshama is not interestedin everything this world has to
offer.
It's almost an argument betweenthe neshama and God, or the
neshama and an angel saying youknow, I don't want to have to go
(07:19):
through this.
And why does it come into thisworld?
It comes into this worldbecause, similar to an astronaut
in outer space that cannotaccomplish anything unless it
has a spacesuit, then a shamancomes into this world because,
in order to actually dosomething, it needs to have a
body, it needs to exist in aphysical space.
I saw someone's WhatsApp statusrecently that said you are a
soul and you have a body.
(07:40):
I'm not sure if they made thatup or they got that from
somewhere, but that really hadme thinking that that's really
true.
It's imagine the astronaut goesto outer space and he thinks of
himself as the spacesuit.
You're not the spacesuit,you're not the body, you're not
your talents.
You are a mission in this world, and I think that that is an
incredibly empowering idea.
And when we remember that weare here on behalf of something
(08:03):
and for something, then we endup using those talents in a way
again that, yes, uses out ourpotential, pushes us to achieve
our potential.
The self-actualization is agreat way to phrase that piece,
but it allows us to pursueself-actualization from the
perspective of our neshamaversus pursuing
self-actualization for thepurpose of simply living a
(08:24):
pleasure-filled life.
I believe self-actualizationfor the purpose of simply living
a pleasure-filled life, Ibelieve self-actualization, I
think, is Maslow's idea.
I could be wrong.
First we start off trying tofeed our basic needs food and
sustenance, et cetera and theultimate happiness is when we
can achieve self-actualization.
But the truth is, humility iswhen we accomplish that same
(08:44):
goal from, but from a totallydifferent perspective okay.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So how does someone know whether they are being
humble?
How does someone go aboutexploring their relationship to
the humility in their life?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
sure, so I think anyone who knows me in person
probably think it's kind ofironic that I'm doing a episode
on humility, but this is howI've internalized these ideas.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
But are you being falsely humble right now?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Estee?
No, I would say not, I was justgoing to say, I think even
over-recording, even those whoare not seeing this Zoom video,
I think it comes across that I'ma pretty loud, conversational,
social, fairly confident kind ofperson, and so this is
something I've thought about alot and, like I said when I was
younger, whenever people talkabout the idea of humility or in
(09:31):
citizen, we use the term Bittl.
I really struggled with that,because I would then come into a
new situation, come into campor into seminary or into a new
setting, and I'd say, okay, youknow what, in this setting I'm
going to be the quiet person andI wouldn't open my mouth for
(09:51):
the first couple hours orhowever long that days and
however long that feeling lasted, and I would be miserable and
it was quite frankly like forlack of a better wording a
stupid way to approach newsituations, because what I've
learned over my lifetime is thatwhat I have to contribute is
exactly that, is the fact thatI'm, is the fact that I'm social
, is the fact that I'm confident, is the fact that I'm talking
it, and that those can bechanneled for good things.
So I'm giving an example ofmyself which may contradict
(10:13):
everything I'm saying, but I'mgiving it because I think it
makes it real that I think whenpeople struggle with this to
think about, when we say no tosomething, are we saying no
because really our plate is fullor really we genuinely believe
I am not good at this, right?
Like if someone asked me to sitquietly, I had to do this.
Actually, last week I had tointerview people for a video and
(10:33):
sit and listen for about 11hours straight.
That was something that wasrightfully very challenging for
me and may not be something thatI sign up to again.
But when something is asked ofus and we say no or we say I'm
not good enough or we feel theneed to diffuse a compliment or
a comment, we can stop and thinkwhy am I doing that?
Am I doing that becausegenuinely I believe that if I
(10:55):
applied myself, I reallywouldn't do a good job?
Or am I doing that as a way tosort of get out of a
responsibility?
Right?
I know I was just talking tosomebody recently who's putting
together one of the millionconnoisseurs on conferences
that's happening over the summer, and we were talking about this
notion that the same namesalways appear at these
conferences, right, and how dowe solve that?
(11:17):
And I gave maybe 10 differentsuggestions of people that
hadn't been used before for thisspecific situation and she said
to me she said look, when Ireach out to new people, the
challenge is they're alwaystelling me no, I'm not a speaker
.
And there are some people whotruly have social anxiety or
real stage fright and for themto get up really would be
physically painful.
(11:37):
But for many people, when theysay no, it's because it would be
stepping outside their comfortzone.
And I think that when we'reasking ourselves, is this me
really being humble, or is thisme being quite frankly
self-centered or selfish andtherefore putting myself before
the mission or putting myselfbefore what needs to get done?
I think the question is whatcomes out of it.
(12:00):
Do I end up doing more good ordo I end up stepping away from
doing good?
And am I coming at this becauseI genuinely do not have the
bandwidth?
Am I scared to stay in mycomfort zone or am I willing to
push myself just a little bit?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So humility is actually the opposite of
squishing yourself into a tinyspace, but rather stepping into
your full potential and in thatspace you are actually really
the most humble person.
So that's really reallyinteresting.
And I think, if we take thisconversation to the direction I
mean, you and I are both motherswho, I'm sure, think quite
(12:33):
deeply about parenting ourchildren and all the parts of
that.
So if we move this conversationinto how do we teach this to
our children, I think sometimesparents might struggle with the
generation that we're in now,which is, you know, positive
reinforcement.
Let's tell our kids they'redoing great all the time, versus
really telling our kids youknow, this is where you shine
(12:55):
and this is, you know, where wecould apply more, and this is,
you know, maybe let's put alittle bit of less effort into
this.
So I wonder, as a parent, howare we teaching our children
humility?
But is that?
Is that really like?
Is there some sort of likedichotomy between teaching
humility and the positivereinforcement that we see maybe
(13:16):
a little bit overdone in someinstances?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Sure.
So I think you and I are boththe product of, you know, the
gentle parenting era, in thesense that as we came of age to
parenting I don't know thatwe're exactly the same age, but
more or less as we becamecounselors in camp, teachers in
schools, parents of children orpeople who are just generally
responsible for others wedefinitely came to those
positions at an age where thenumber one motivator was praise
(13:43):
and the number one goal wasself-confidence.
And whenever people ask me anyparenting question, I always say
come to me when my kids are intheir 20s and they're adults,
and then I'll know whether mythought processes were correct
or incorrect.
But I've been thinking aboutthis more and more lately.
I had the opportunity to teachsome extracurricular activities
in my kid's school this yearthrough long story, but
(14:06):
something that I did almost onthe side, and I then forgot to
interact with lots of differentkids, about 400 kids in all
different ages of elementaryschool this year, in addition to
my own children and in additionto the Hebrew school kids that
I teach.
So I really feel like this yearespecially, I've had the
perspective of lots of differentages and lots of different
backgrounds, some religious,some not, some in private school
(14:30):
, some in public school, somethat I see more often, some that
I only see once a month, and Ithink you're right that maybe
we've gone.
You know, trends tend to go toextremes before they shift away,
and I think that maybe we arein a little bit in the time of
extreme when it comes to praiseand positive reinforcement.
But I think again, you have twosides of the coin when it comes
to teaching our childrenhumility.
(14:51):
I don't believe in putting downour kids.
I think that one of the reasonsgentle parenting took off so
much is because many peopleexperienced a lot of that and a
lot of criticism that didn'treally lead to healthy adulthood
or healthy childhood either.
But I think it's two sides ofthe same coin On one hand,
(15:12):
helping our kids develop thetalent that they do have.
When we see something that theyare indeed good at, not just
saying, oh, you have a nicevoice, let me get you voice
lessons, or you're good at dance, let's sign you up for a local
dance group.
Or you are good at art, let'ssign you up for a local art
class, because look how talentedyou are.
I think that can happen.
(15:32):
But the next piece of that iswow.
Look how musical you are.
Would you like to do musiclessons?
Would you like to do pianolessons?
Would you like to do voicelessons, if that's something
that is within your abilities toprovide.
But then the next step is almostmore crucial.
Hashem gave you lots of talents.
What do you think Hashem gaveyou those talents for?
Why do you think Hashem mighthave made you out of everyone in
(15:55):
your entire class?
Why do you think Hashem mighthave made you out of everyone in
your entire class?
Why do you think he made yougood at art?
Why do you think he made yougood at music?
How can you help your school,or how can you help your family,
or how can you help peoplearound you using the talents
that you have?
And I think that that's the key.
The key is not, therefore, noneof our kids should be given
opportunities, because it's toomuch and self-centered, but
(16:17):
again, is a self-actualization.
I like phrasing in that way.
I think I appreciate that is aself-actualization.
Is it coming from?
I want to be my happiest self.
I want to live out my potential.
Or is it I?
I, it is almost myresponsibility to develop my
potential, because hashem gaveit to me for a reason.
Hashem gave me every piece thatI had for a reason, and so I
think that small part with whenwe are giving to our children, I
(16:41):
think is really important, youknow, especially as they develop
the skill and they're maybe alittle bit older and you know
they could be 10, they could be11, they don't have to be 18 and
trying to do this for money.
But maybe, turning to the kidwho's playing been playing piano
for three, four years and andsaying you know what this Torah?
Maybe before we go to deliverShalach and Manas to all your
friends, why don't we see if wecan go for 20 minutes to an old
(17:03):
age home and you can sing therefor 20 minutes, or you can play
piano?
Or you know, why don't we govisit your bubby and hang up
drawings that you made for her?
It doesn't have to be thingsthat are elaborate, and now I'm
starting a business or now I'mstudying another gemach or
tzedakah organization.
I think, though, having thatcomponent of how are you going
to use the fact that you'redeveloping this talent to
(17:23):
benefit others, I think that, or, or you know, to bring yiddish
into the world, to bring lightinto the world to.
Why do you like having thatconversation with our children?
Why do you think hashem gaveyou this talent?
It doesn't have to feel heavy,it doesn't have to feel like a
responsibility that is a burdenon our shoulders, but it helps a
person also understand why theywould have been given a talent
(17:44):
if they're not going to be thebest.
And I think that often,especially when we're developing
externally measured talents, wecan get caught up in am I the
best?
Because the only way toshowcase a talent is in a
competition, is in a performance, is somewhere like that and I
think that sort of again framingit in why do we think Hashem
gave this to us?
How can we benefit those aroundus?
I think really helps.
(18:04):
And I also think to your otherpoint, and there's the other
side of the coin.
I think when we compliment kidsat things that they are not good
at, they don't believe a wordwe say.
That's when we start to hearyou're only saying that because
you're my mother.
And the truth is, if we do saythings because we're their
mother or because we're theirteacher, then our words lose
(18:25):
validity and then, when wereally do need to reinforce them
and we really do need to buildthem up.
Our words have become a littlebit cheap and meaningless.
So I do think if a kid comesover and asks you know, mom, did
you like my performance?
There's a difference betweensaying, oh my goodness, of
course I love your performance,you're the most amazing singer,
I think you're the best ever,and saying, you know, I love
(18:45):
that you like we're so energetic, you have such stage presence,
like that is so cool how you getup and you're so confident.
I think even that type ofphrase that is real about the
parts that they are good at Willmy kid read between the lines?
Probably, but will he thenunderstand that maybe his talent
is stage presence and maybeit's not?
Music and music was the way hecame to that, maybe.
(19:07):
And doesn't that teach ourchildren much more than our
generation has successfullylearned?
Our generation struggles a lotwith when we fail sort of
allowing that to define us,because if I'm always smart and
always successful and alwayswonderful and perfect, well then
the second I mess up.
I've just proven everybodywrong.
But if the compliments and thefeedback is about what I'm
(19:31):
actually good at, that I caninternalize I'm not good at
everything.
Let me put my energy where it'sactually either needed or come
naturally to me or is is I canstep out of my comfort zone and
develop.
But I think that that's okay.
I think the flip side.
I work a lot with collegestudents and one of the
challenges that they have istoday.
(19:52):
Anybody grows up believing,like I said earlier, the world
is your oyster, you could doanything, which is great when
you're a freshman and asophomore, your first couple
years, because the world is youroyster and you're exploring
lots of different things.
But then come the secondsemester of senior year, the
last couple months of school,almost every student I encounter
starts really, really feelingoverwhelmed.
(20:13):
Really feeling overwhelmedBecause if the entire world is
my oyster, if every single ideathat pops into my head is a good
one, if any talent I've everconsidered pursuing is something
that I believe I can excel at,that's overwhelming to the point
of being a paralysis of choice.
And so I think, as parents,when we can help our children
not limit themselves butunderstand where their true
(20:34):
talents are, I think we'reactually doing them a favor.
Limit themselves, butunderstand where their true
talents are.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I think we're actually doing them a favor.
It's so interesting.
So as I'm listening to you, I'mthinking two points.
I'm thinking, first of all,when we tell our kids, use your
talent for something, we'reactually giving them a vessel
for further pursuit.
So we're giving them a Kayleefor something.
So it's not this like, oh,you're so good at everything,
we're giving them something thatthey can tangibly come back to
in different ways and that's so,so, such a powerful thing that
(21:00):
it's not just oh, you're good,you're amazing, and the kid's
like I don't know.
And when you gave the exampleof the college students, I'm
like it works not just for thelittle kids but also for the
older kids, which is really,really great.
And the second thing I'mthinking is you spoke about
maybe not giving this generalcompliment, but complimenting
the truth in what we see, likewe see something good.
You were very perseverant.
Maybe you weren't very good atit, but you were very persistent
(21:22):
, you showed up, you did it eventhough it was difficult.
That's a great life skill,right that they can then
translate that in something elsethat will lead them to greater
success when they do find theiractual talent.
So it all kind of comes intothe same play where we're giving
them actual tools that willinvest themselves further down
the road.
So they don't have to be goodat everything just because their
(21:43):
brother is and they were giventhe same opportunity, but
they're going to learn todifferentiate and really step
into themselves.
As a Kala teacher, I wonder whatyour thoughts are about this.
I often deal with couples andI'm sure you do too, if you're
in college because they comeback.
I know that from my friends whoare in.
They do come back and you dodeal with them as married people
(22:07):
.
I wonder how humility playsitself out in relationships
specifically in conflict, inmatters of stress and pushback
that a couple might have betweenthemselves.
Where would you see the lack ofhumility or humility playing
itself out in more of arelationship like adult to adult
(22:30):
?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Sure, so I think this comes up.
I do teach college as well, soI know exactly what you're
talking about.
I, I think definitely in amarriage, but even in, you know,
if you have people who arepre-marriage but living with an
adult roommate right, andthey're in seminary, they're in
college, they're in Shiva, etcetera or somebody who is a
(22:53):
teenager sharing a room withtheir sibling, or somebody who's
you know I'm not sure if you'reputting this out when we're
recording, but we're about to gointo the summer and someone
who's going to be a counselor incamp, possibly with some
friends that they are close withand probably working with some
other staff members that notonly might they not know from
before, but might have a totallydifferent style of working and
of communication than them.
I think very often it comesback to the same concept we
(23:17):
discussed in the beginning thathumility is about recognizing
that there is a bigger picture.
So we spoke about with regardto talent and how do I show up
with my talents being the biggerpicture is Hashem put me in
this world.
Hashem wants to.
You know that we should createa dear bit of time, that we
should light up the world in allof the different parts and, you
know, discover all thedifferent sparks, et cetera, and
(23:38):
obviously ultimately bringMoshiach and bring the world to
its final goal, and that each ofus does that through our
talents, through the gifts thatwe're given.
But I think, within that wehave this idea of remembering
the bigger mission, rememberingthat there is always a bigger
picture that I am an importantpart of.
(23:58):
I'm an important part of apicture, but I am not the whole
picture, right?
The famous idea of in onepocket carrying Bishrili Nebar
Ailam and another pocketcarrying that, yes, the whole
world couldn't exist without me,otherwise Hashem wouldn't have
created me in this moment.
But at the same time, I am notthe whole world, right?
And and how do we hold thosetwo things?
So, I think, in a very practicalway, when it comes to
(24:21):
relationships of any sort youknow a couple or like any of the
examples I mentioned earlier, Ithink that we come to get stuck
in our narrative and get stuckin our side of the argument and
we forget what, the what, thegoal is, everything from
something simple, like Iremember once when I was a staff
member in a in a camp, andthere was a whole huge fight
(24:42):
between two different groupswithin the staff.
What was the fight?
The fight was about what exactcolor orange our staff
sweatshirt was going to be.
Was it going to be a burntorange or a neon orange?
And half the girls were wantedthe neon and half the girls
wanted the burnt orange and, asa result, it was creating this
whole argument.
And really, what was our goal?
Our goal was a cute sweatshirtto come away with.
(25:03):
We almost didn't end up withsweatshirt, or could have ended
up not getting the sweatshirt ifthe argument had continued
longer, because we wouldn't haveordered it in time.
Right?
So that's.
I'm giving a very simple andsilly example, because people
often get defensive if you giveexamples that are too close to
home.
But any couple that's beenmarried for any amount of time
knows that we can get intoarguments over things that
(25:25):
really are not.
We start arguing over detailsand that's not really what we
want.
So I'll give an example.
Your husband comes home at 6.30.
He was supposed to come home at6 o'clock.
He forgot to text you.
He walks in the door at 6.30.
He was supposed to come home atsix o'clock.
He forgot to text you.
He walks in the door at 6.30.
Now you've prepared dinner anddinner was warm at six o'clock.
And you put an effort at sixo'clock to make sure that the
dinner was warm because you feellike you've sort of not made
(25:46):
food in a month and you've beeneating cereal and you've been
eating cereal.
So you specifically tried todayto get things right because you
felt like, oh, I want toreconnect, I want to show him
that I care, I've just beenexhausted and he walks in at
6.30.
Now, your goal was to connectwith your husband.
The reason you made dinner wasbecause you wanted him to feel
cared about.
But if anyone is like anybody Iknow, if anyone listening is
(26:09):
like anybody I know very manypeople the first thing their
husband walks to the door isgoing to be why are you late?
And if you're late, why didn'tyou text me?
Didn't you know I made dinner?
Didn't you know that?
I told you 50,000 times thatit's fine if you're running late
.
I'm a very tolerant person, I'man understanding person.
But at least text me.
(26:29):
Now in those 60 seconds, whathave you done?
Yes, your husband nowunderstands.
He's supposed to be home at sixo'clock but, short of inventing
a time machine, he me nowunderstands.
He's supposed to be home at sixo'clock but, short of inventing
a time machine, he can't goback and actually accomplish the
details of what you wanted atsix.
But if you stop in that momentand you say, okay, what I
actually want is to connect, soI'm a little annoyed you weren't
home earlier, but guess what?
I made this really deliciousdinner.
It was warm at six.
I guess we'll eat it togethercold and you create a connective
(26:51):
moment.
I think that's again remindingourselves of the big picture.
And so I think one of the mostuseful practical tools that I
wish I remembered who told meearly on, right before I got
married or right after I gotmarried that I find is one of
the most useful communicationtools is the ability, in the
middle of an argument, to saycan we start again or can we
(27:14):
press pause or let's stop for asecond?
What do you actually want rightnow and what do I actually want
right now?
And when you first start doingthat, it can feel really
scripted, whether it's with yourroommate, whether it's with
your friend in school, whetherit's with your colleague,
whether it's with your spouse.
But the ability to do that to,in that moment, not just get all
worked up into which side ofthe argument he's right and I'm
(27:35):
right and she's right andthey're right.
But to stop and say, okay, yousaid, I said okay.
Can we just pause for onesecond?
What I meant was just I reallywould like to sit with you for a
dinner.
We haven't done that in a while.
It doesn't matter really who'sright.
It doesn't matter most of thetime who's wrong, unless someone
has been out to get you andspecifically has tried to harm
(27:58):
you.
That's not 99% of our arguments.
99% of our arguments aregetting stuck in the details,
and so humility, I would say,applies to marriage, applies
that this conversation is partof a broader picture.
Any conversation we havespecifically in marriage, but
(28:19):
any conversation we have withanyone, is either drawing us
closer together or pushing usfurther apart.
There's almost never very littleexception are there neutral
conversations with our spouse,with our child, with our
colleague, and when we're workedup, to take a moment, literally
take an actual deep breath, andjust be able to say can we
(28:39):
press pause for a second?
Can we start again To recognizethat this conversation is part
of a broader relationship?
And if that broaderrelationship matters to me, then
I can take that same conceptthat I take with talent or with
how much space I take up, etcetera, and say what am I
actually here for?
What am I actually trying toaccomplish?
And it's not a perfect piece ofadvice, because you have to
(29:01):
have the presence of mind enoughin the moment to remember to
pause.
But the more you can make it ahabit and the more you can make
it sort of an easy tool in yourtoolbox, just like we all do
with using I statements insteadof you statements, or we
statements instead of youstatements, or sandwiching and
saying a positive and a positive, and giving the criticism in
the middle and all of thesethings that, when we first hear
them or use them, sound superscripted but then just become
(29:23):
part of how we operate.
With enough practice, I thinkthat that's a practical way that
I've seen work to take thisconcept of humility and being
able to see the bigger pictureand bring it into our, our real
day to day behind closed doorslife.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I love that.
And, by the way, just so thatyou said pause for a second,
studies show that you actually,if you're at that level of like
cortisol and arousal and angerand stress from something, the
timeframe that you're supposedto wait to respond is three
minutes.
It takes that long for yourbrain to be like okay, I'm not
that angry, I can manage this,so that's the timeframe.
So if anyone's listening, theywant like a timer.
(30:01):
Go to the bathroom, likeliterally, the bathroom's a
great tool.
Go to the bathroom Like onesecond.
I just need the bathroom threeminutes.
You should be fine after that.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
For some people who are sensory.
So yes, if this can be helpful,even in 15 seconds, I can only
imagine how much more helpful ifyou did it fully.
For those who are more likeneed a tactile way to do this
chewing a piece of gum untilit's lost its flavor, or taking
a piece of chocolate and suckingit instead of chewing it, or
taking a nutty chew, becausethose things take forever to
(30:30):
actually eat and swallow thoseare all ways to sort of step
into your room, do that thing.
It also gives you somethingelse to concentrate on for a
second, and then you know theycontinue.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
So I'm listening to your conversation and I'm just
trying to put these piecestogether, because we said a lot
of points and I think that whenpeople think about humility
which is where this conversationstarted with was what is the
misconception?
The misconception is that theopposite of humility would be
self confidence, so that the theoriginal like misconception
(31:03):
about humility is humilities onone spectrum and self confidence
and a feeling of I can do itall is the opposite.
However, now through thisconversation, I think if we took
self-confidence, the oppositeof self-confidence would
actually be quite simply thelack of self-worth.
But then, if we explorehumility, the opposite of
humility would be ego, becausehumility is the opposite of ego
(31:29):
and it's not the opposite ofself-confidence at all.
They're two completely separateconcepts.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
I think, in fact, self-confidence and humility
could.
They're two completely separateconcepts.
I think, in fact,self-confidence and humility
could be seen as almost synonyms.
And I think, you know, forthose who are tempted to push
back, I would say we live in thegeneration that has
complimented our kids more thanany other generation.
I mean, I didn't get to be afly on the wall in the times of
the desert or the times of theBasin Mi'kdash or anything else,
(31:55):
but if I had to take a guess,that would be my pretty
confident guess.
And yet we also live in ageneration that has, certainly
in the Western world, thehighest rates ever of depression
and anxiety and relatedself-harm.
And so I think we have clearlygotten something wrong.
(32:16):
And maybe part of what we'vegotten wrong is, you know, when
you talk about Pesach, aboutHametz and Matzah, and what's
the difference between Hametzand Matzah is, hametz is
something that is risen andMatzah is something that is flat
.
And in the Hebrew letters wehave this with the ches and the
he right.
One keeps all the air in, oneis literally full of hot air and
(32:36):
the other has a space to allowthe air out, and that's why it
is flat.
When we talk about yeshos, wetalk about ego.
We're talking about having abunch of hot air, a bunch of
emptiness that is inflatingsomething.
Bread looks like it's very bigbut all it takes is a little bit
of pressure to flatten it.
When we fill our kids withpraise, that is empty.
That is just because we'repraising but isn't actually
(32:59):
based on something, and wepraise them just for the sake of
praising them, but not toencourage them to actually use
what they have to accomplish inthe world.
I'm not talking about formerSoviet Union, where if you were
good at piano, you have topractice seven hours a day, or
if you want to become an Olympicfigure skater, you have to
practice 25 hours a day, orwhatever.
I'm talking about just regular,normal people.
When we fill them with praise,that is hot air.
(33:21):
We actually need to be oppositeof self-confidence, right, and I
think that that actuallyheavily contributes to a lot of
the negative mental states ornegative emotional states that
we see.
It's not the exclusivecontributor and no parent should
ever blame themselves, becauseevery person, just like every
person, is born with certaintalents.
Every person is born withdifferent challenges and every
(33:43):
person has their journey in thisworld.
Alongside that, I think thatwhen we give our kids not just
compliments but direction onreal things, when the air that
is there not just compliments,but direction on real things
when the air that is there, thatis filling them up, is real, I
think then you end up in a spacewhere self-confidence and
humility at the very leastdovetail or go hand in hand, but
(34:06):
in bigger picture actuallybecome two sides of the same
coin.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's so interesting and I think that so many of the
examples that you gave arebringing this point across.
So let's move the conversationaway from relationships that are
established and away fromchildren and mothering.
What if one of our listeners orseveral of our listeners are
listening and they're like look,I'm not a mom, I don't have
(34:33):
kids, I'm not in a relationship,but I am dating?
Where does humility play in thedating world, both in choosing
a partner and in yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Sure.
So I think there's a studentwho actually just came to visit
recently and he was one of thevery first students that we met
and he, he came back and hegraduated years ago and now has
his marriage, has a family, andit's always a pleasure to see
him.
But my husband and I met upwith him in Israel a few years
(35:04):
ago when we were visiting that'swhere he now lives, and as we
were sitting and talking to him,we asked him if you had to say
one thing that you remember outof all the endless hours you
spent in our house, what would,what would you share?
So he said, you know, withoutmissing a beat, he said I
remember it was once late atnight and I was.
(35:25):
It was Friday night, maybe itwas 1230, one o'clock in the
morning, way after the Shabbosmeal was over.
And he said, and I was askingyou guys, he's a Kayan.
And he said I was asking youguys, all the different laws, am
I allowed to marry this kind ofperson?
Am I allowed to marry that kindof person?
What if this background?
What if that background?
What if I know?
What if I don't know?
Et cetera.
And he said Esty, you areexhausted.
We're sitting on the floor.
(35:45):
This was the first couple ofyears I on the floor and you
were exhausted.
You turned to me and you saidhow about, instead of thinking
so much about what the personyou marry needs to be to be
qualified to marry, you work onbecoming the kind of person that
person is going to want tomarry?
And he said I think about thatall the time.
Now I said it out of a point ofexhaustion.
(36:05):
I was done with theconversation, but hearing him
say that back to me reminded meof what I believe is a fairly
important point, which isnowadays especially, many of us
come to the dating conversationwith.
Here's my list here are all thethings I need, and it's
important to know what you need.
And it's important to look at,you know, for girls, look at
(36:28):
male role models in your lifeand vice versa, and see what are
the things that you respect,what are the things that are
important to you, what are thethings that you sort of take for
granted that that is the maleor female role, and that's an
important part of theconversation, but it is not the
whole conversation, and what Imean by that is, alongside,
making that list of what you mayneed from the other person.
(36:48):
Think about what are youuniquely suited to give in a
relationship?
What can you bring to themarriage?
What can you bring to themarriage?
What can you bring to the table?
Not because it's a give andtake, not because it has to be
even, but because when you goout with somebody, alongside
looking for whether they canfill your needs, it's important
(37:09):
for you to be able to see howare you going to be able to give
to them.
First of all, because, tocreate an emotionally healthy
relationship, both people haveto feel like they're receiving
for sure, but both people alsohave to feel like they have what
to contribute, that there isn'tthis huge gap between one and
the other in terms of what they,what they can give.
I think that that's one piece.
I also think, taking a stepeven further back than that, it
(37:30):
can be incredibly helpful notjust to think about who is the
person I want to marry, but I Ido this sometimes when I speak
in some of the high schools orseminaries I will stop and I'll
say stop, and for the next threeminutes it's going to be quiet
(37:51):
and I want you to picture inyour head, in your mind, close
your eyes, if you're comfortabledoing so, and picture in your
mind your home in three years'time, in five years' time, in 10
years' time.
What does it look likePhysically?
What's around you?
Your spouse walks in the door.
What is the energy that theybring along with them?
What is the energy that youreciprocate to them?
How are they dressed and howdoes that reflect who they are?
(38:14):
Are they dressed like abusiness person?
Do they just come in from a run?
What's going on in your life?
What is the surrounding like?
Is it peaceful?
Is it organized?
Is it messy, but in a fun chaoskind of way?
Is it messy in a way thatstresses you out?
Are there children around ornot?
Do you have other familiesliving down the hall or nearby?
(38:34):
To really try and picture andI'll go through a bunch of
different questions like thisreally try and picture the life
that you envision and then stopand think what are you currently
doing to try and get yourselfthere, or what are you blaming
on the fact that you can't getthere?
And, of course, many peoplework very hard in life and are
(38:55):
not able to have the bracha ofsuccess in the areas that they
want.
But I think stopping andthinking about what part do I
play or can I play, to do thehishtabla side of things, I
think is important, and perhapsmost important at that stage
where you're not just choosing alife partner a husband, a wife
but you're also choosing adirection of life.
You're choosing, you're notjust choosing a life partner a
husband, a wife but you'reyou're also choosing a direction
(39:16):
of life.
You're choosing, you'recommitting to this other person
a certain lifestyle, and lifemay change and I'm old enough to
have watched many people'slives start out one way and
shift another way, based ontheir dynamics, based on their
life experience, based on thecurve balls that hashem throws
their way.
But to take responsibility in away that I don't think Right,
but to take responsibility in away that I don't think we're
often asked to, to bringyourself in that direction,
(39:58):
no-transcript, and see what am Icurrently doing, to take myself
in the direction that I wouldlike, what is my again, what is
my bigger picture that I'mworking towards and that can
also help a person understandwhether the things that don't
match up with their list aredeal breakers or not.
(40:20):
Because if I have this list andI'm sticking to the list and
the list and the list and thelist.
But I said I want someone who's5'10 and he's only 5'9.
Is that a deal breaker?
Am I settling?
I'm giving obviously a verysuperficial example.
I'm hoping that no one's supertriggered by that one, but I
think that, again, stepping backa second, I want someone who I
feel I can literally look up toright.
(40:42):
Is that where the height thingis coming from?
I want someone who lookssimilar to what men in my life
have looked like.
Right, I want somebody who.
There was someone in my life whowas very large and domineering,
and I want someone who gives atotally different energy.
Then it doesn't matter if he's5'9 or 5'10.
It matters what the reason?
There's a book that I once sawlaying around in my parents'
(41:04):
house called the Question Behindthe Question.
What is the reason behind thereason?
What is the desire behind thedesire?
And so I think, again taking astep back, to summarize two
pieces One is stopping andthinking not just about what do
you want from someone, but whatcan you give to someone.
And, second of all, to thinknot just the nitty gritty
(41:25):
details, but bigger picture.
What do you envision your lifethat you're working towards.
Again, only Hashem canguarantee success.
But what life are you workingtowards, what is your big
picture and what are the stepsthat are going to get you there?
And it's going to give you alot of insight into how you, how
you find, with the abish'shealth, someone who's going to
(41:46):
be able to, you know, go alongthat journey with you and you
can support each other throughthat journey so interesting
because you had a wholeconversation now about dating.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
But the thread that still combines all these
different points about lookingfor a spouse, finding a partner,
etc.
Etc.
Is this stepping into what yourrole is in life.
Where is your space that Hashemhas sent you into this world to
accomplish something?
And it all goes back to thesame thing, because that is
really what humility is about.
(42:14):
It's about this larger ticketitem of who you are in the
larger scheme rather than whoyou are in your own little space
of you know self fulfillment tothe exclusion of a godly
mission.
So humility is this reallygreat thing that has come into
the conversation, both asparents and as partners, and as
(42:35):
someone who's dating and assomeone in really any role,
because all these examples willin some place translate to any
role that we have.
Right, are we approachingthings with an awareness of us
fulfilling our mission to thebest of our ability again and
again, and again and again?
Or are we approaching thingsfrom a perspective of I need to
(42:55):
take care of myself?
Speaker 2 (42:59):
So a hundred percent.
And if I can add just one morepiece, we have also this
sometimes people use thelanguage of like an olive school
and a base school or a top tierfucker or a top girl or things
like that, and when we'recomparing ourselves to she got a
guy from this kind of familyand he got a girl from that kind
of seminary or things like that, it's, it's really, it's not
(43:23):
just superficial, it'sridiculous, because diminishing
yes, and if I realize that, whatam I here for, what do I want
out of my life, then it'sirrelevant, completely and
entirely irrelevant to anyoneelse.
I know Mary, to the extent thatI can learn from married, to
the extent that I can learn fromtheir example, to the extent
that I can learn from theirexample what I want, what I
don't want.
You know a red flag that maybecame out for someone?
(43:45):
They didn't notice, things likethat, yes, it's helpful to be
aware, but it's totallyirrelevant to anybody of my
classmates or any of my friendsor any of my family members
married, because if I understandthat my mission is different
than theirs and I can developclarity on what my mission is in
this world, then it mattersthat I find someone who matches
with that, not who matches withmy.
(44:06):
It's not just about oh, don'tbe jealous, because the Avery
Strat has a plan.
It's about, if you're lookingto paint pottery today, you go
to this pottery place it's truefor you or create your own, or
all of them always have thesecute pun names about painting.
If you're looking to go paintthere and I say, oh, but you
know what that paint?
When you stick it under water,if it's not glazed yet, it
washes off really easily.
Let me give you permanentmarkers.
Are permanent markers?
(44:26):
Do they?
Do they stay longer, like onyour skin or on paper?
Yeah, but is that going to helpyou with a nice painted pottery
piece?
Try saying that five times fast.
Absolutely not, because that'snot what is needed for that goal
.
However, if I walk into an artspace and I don't know what I'm
looking for and someone says tome, oh, these markers, they're
(44:47):
super permanent, they're goingto stick really well, I'm going
to take the permanent markers,I'm going to try drawing with
them on my pottery that I end updoing, and it's going to come
off in a kiln.
I don't know.
Actually, I don't know enoughabout kilns to know if that's
the case, but I'm certainly notgoing to get that nice blazed
look that I'm looking for,because I didn't have my goal
before I took what I thought Ineeded.
And so I think, applying that,whether it's to dating, whether
(45:08):
it's about what schools a persongets into, what seminary the
person gets into, where a it'snot about what everyone else is
doing.
Not because we have to work onjealousy and not because the
apes drive the planet Sometimesit works out for me and it
doesn't work out for the otherperson but because my mission is
different.
If it wasn't different, hashemwould not have created me.
Every single neshama is in thisworld for what it needs to be
(45:37):
accomplishing in its environment, exactly given the exact family
, gifts, talents, challengesthat it is supposed to have.
I'll give.
I think I mentioned this to youbefore we got on this call, but
I recently downloaded an app andthe app was an exercise app and
it asked me like 20 questionsbefore it even allowed me to
like choose a membership planand before I could even start my
free trial.
20 different questions how oldare you?
What is your current weight?
Is your goal to lose weight andhow much weight?
(45:58):
And, if not, you know what areyour exercise, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
When it finally gave me youknow, or for you suggested
workout, or whatever it was.
I don't know if they give thesame workout to every single
person, but I definitely feltmore compelled to actually try
and do the workout when I feltlike it was tailor-made for me
and it sort of popped into myhead that that's how the Avery
(46:18):
strip puts every single one ofus in this world.
We don't have to fill out aquestionnaire because he created
us right.
But we're coming into thisworld with exactly a tailor-made
workout plan.
And if we recognize that, weare so much more likely to
engage, to engage fully, toengage consistently, when we
recognize it's created for us.
And so it's not about jealousyor it will be good in the end,
(46:39):
but it's about looking for well,why am I here?
What is my mission here?
What can I do or what?
How can I surround myself toachieve that mission?
And if I'm not in thatsituation maybe that's a shantah
my mission's a little bitdifferent than I thought it was.
If I'm not good at singing,probably I mean in my case,
probably, regardless of the casebut if I'm not an excellent
singer, my mission in this worldprobably wasn't to be, you know
(47:01):
, fulfilling the mitzvah ofbeing a Sameach HaSamechala on a
nightly basis.
That's probably not only isthat not where I'm supposed to
make my money, but that'sprobably not why Hashem put me
in this world.
And by not making me afantastic singer, it's not that
well.
I have some talents, my friendhas some talent.
Hashem is helping me understandthat that's not where I'm
supposed to be putting my effort.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Wow.
So you just turned everythingway on his head.
So there's no, and I think thatwhoever's listening, I think
the message and I don't know ifyou said it in these words, so I
think it's important to saythese words is that there isn't
actually a top tier kid, abetter kid or a worse kid, a
better spouse or a worse spouse,a better school or worse school
(47:39):
, a better person or any otherperson.
You need to just find the rightfit for you, whether that's am
I finding the right fit forwhere I'm supposed to shine, or
have I found the spouse that'sthe right fit for me, or are my
children in the right school forthem?
There's just a right fit.
There isn't right or wrong.
And if we change this dialogue,by the way, in our community, I
(48:01):
would venture to say we wouldall be happier and more
well-adjusted.
There would be less of a senseof well.
In order for me to feelfulfilled, I need to get into X
Y school.
My kids need to accomplishwhatever.
I mean, I don't know if youhave kids who've done bar
mitzvahs, but there's a wholeculture around bar mitzvahs that
your kids have to do a seiyamand they have to lean and they
have to give a pilpul and ifyour kid does that, wow, they're
(48:25):
amazing.
Right, and your kid did theentire checklist Like that's a
big ego boost.
But is it the right fit for yourkid?
Is your kid going to be able tocome to the bar mitzvah with
joy and with love and withconnection and really shining in
the way that they need to?
It's a question to ask, andit's a question that really
comes back to the crux of thisconversation, which is stepping
(48:46):
into your godly mission.
And in the space where you stepinto your godly mission, you do
have self-confidence becauseyou have great awareness of what
that mission is and whereyou're going to, with humility
and with awareness, define whatyou're supposed to do and really
step into that space with allof you, and that's a really,
really beautiful way ofredefining humility.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
To your point about bar mitzvah.
Again, you can go back towhat's your goal?
Is your goal that this kid isgoing to have a positive
association with the shul?
Is he going to have a positiveassociation with independent
learning?
Is he going to have a positiveassociation with his parentsul
is going to have a positiveassociation with independent
learning?
Is going to have a positiveassociation with with his
parents as he enters his teenageyears?
Is he going to feel like tyrais a place where he can shine,
or is?
Is your goal to keep up withyour friends?
Is that really what's going onunderneath?
(49:29):
Because if so, probably theanswer to all the above is he's
not going to end up with thosethings that we all want for our
children, and so this applies toliterally every single
challenge we encounter in ourlives.
I think can be reframed in thiskind of way.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Right, and just to finish the example, like if
we're saying it depends on thegoal, the goal is going to
differ parent to parent.
One parent is going to push akid because they do need to have
that push to get theself-fulfillment and one parent
is like, no, it's about the joyand that have that push to get
the self-fulfillment, and oneparent is like, no, it's about
the joy and that's where you'regoing to have to make an
individual decision.
I think this is a really greatexample because parents do
(50:04):
struggle with how far am Ipushing a kid, how far am I not,
if I want my kid to reachcertain goals?
So it goes back to where is thegoal?
Where is the kid going to shinewhere?
What is that person's destinylike?
What's the journey that Hashemhas placed that neshama into
this world for?
And as parents, we try to pushus, our kids, and that's okay
also, and it's going to lookdifferent person, sure?
(50:26):
I actually think that was areally great example and I'm
glad back to it.
Esty, as we finish our timetogether, is there one thought
that you would like to leave ourlisteners with?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I find that I often come back to the same thought,
which is if there's anyone whoneeds to hear this and I think
really all of us need to hearthis every day which is we are
exactly where we need to beright now.
Tomorrow we might be somewhereelse, we might work to get to
somewhere else, but at thisexact moment, for whatever
reason, we are exactly where weneed to be.
(50:59):
If not, then we would besomewhere else.
If we were supposed to be in adifferent family, we would have
been born into that family.
That's not saying anyone elsecould have messed up for us,
like they should know exactlywhich address we're supposed to
go to If we were supposed to beborn with more money or less
money, or more religiosity orless religiosity.
Wherever we come from isexactly how we were supposed to
be here, and where we are rightnow, where anyone listening is
(51:21):
right now, is exactly where,right now, you need to be.
Now.
Tomorrow you might need to besomewhere else.
In an hour you might need towork towards getting somewhere
else, but no individual personis a mistake and no one is
accidentally somewhere, and Ithink that the more we
internalize that, then we areled to think you know well, why
am I here?
This is not where I would haveexpected to be, or this is not
(51:44):
what I would have expected theindustry would want from me, and
I think that that's to me,that's one of the most
empowering thoughts, I think, isto really recognize Hashem,
really tailor makes every singleperson's life, every single
person's challenges, everysingle person's talents.
They're all there so that youcan live how you were supposed
to live.
And so I think it's the samethought that I repeated many
(52:07):
times over the last hour or sothat we've spent together.
But I genuinely feel that thatframing makes a lot of life a
lot more enjoyable, a lot moremeaningful, a lot more
purposeful and ultimately,hopefully, if we all live like
that brings us to, you know,bring us to Gula, in a literal
sense.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Amazing.
Thank you so much, Esty.
Thank you so much for having me.
My pleasure.
If anyone wants to reach Esty,I'm going to put her contact
information in the show notes.
Definitely click there, reachout for her.
She does Chabaton, she doesspeaking engagements.
I actually I'm going to finishoff saying this I actually got
the recommendation for thispodcast from my niece who heard
her, and so full circle, like,definitely definitely reach out
(52:50):
to Esty, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you very much for havingme on your podcast and thank you
to whoever has listened all theway to the end.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I love that.
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you for joining me onthis past hour.
I'm so glad that you found ourpodcast and that we got to spend
the time together.
If you would like to nominateyourself or someone you know for
a topic that they areinterested, feel passionate
about, or you feel passionateabout, reach out to us at info
(53:23):
at bodysoulscom Remember that'stwo S's.
If you have any feedback aboutthe work we're doing, or if you
would like to connect, you canuse the same email.
I hope you have a wonderful,uplifting and amazing day.
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