Where to find Aimee:
- Instagram: @vibrancenutrition
- Nutrition Coaching: vibrancenutrition.com
- Podcast on Nutrition: Blasphemous Nutrition
- Substack on Nomadic Life: NomadicNomMom
Where to find Rebecca:
- Instagram and her life in Paris: @beseriouslyhappy
- Podcast for Interior Design-preneurs: Stuff Interior Designers Need to Know
- Biz Coaching for Interior Designers: seriouslyhappy.com
- Book on Interior Design Psychology: Happy Starts at Home
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Bonjola, a podcastabout two women, Amy and
Rebecca, who each moved from theUnited States to Europe to
become expats, Amy to Spain andRebecca to France.
We're here to share the highs,the lows, and the logistics of
this adventure, encourage you tofollow your own move abroad
dreams, and remind you thatyou're not alone when the going
gets tough.
Enjoy.
la-chingona_1_12-19-20 (00:24):
Bonjola, Rebecca.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (00:26):
Manjola, Amy.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (00:27):
Um, to our listeners, today's
episode is going to have aslightly different tone than you
may be accustomed to hearingfrom us because, um, because we
have chosen to record whilstshit gets real.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (00:43):
Yes, I have, I have just been crying,
and I am going to not be cryingas much as I can on this
recording, but no promises.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (00:50):
Don't believe you.
I think you're gonna be crying.
Maybe not as hard as you wereearlier, but I think you're
gonna get teary.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (00:58):
It's been a wild year.
It has been a wild ride.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (01:02):
Fuck it has, pardon my language,
guys.
I'm so sorry.
One of these days.
I'll either, I'll eithercontinuously remember to put
explicit so that you all knowwhat's coming or I'll stop
cursing.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (01:15):
Well, you just described, I asked you,
let me try that again.
I feel that I have been in freefall.
I don't think I knew it, but Ithink I've been in free fall for
a year, and now I am hyper awareof the fact that I am falling
through space, plummeting towhat feels like my death.
(01:36):
It's great, and you said thatyou feel like you're on thin
ice.
I'd like to hear more about whatyou mean by that.
Let's start there.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (01:48):
So for all intents and purposes,
we've made it.
We're here, we're settled.
We have kind of, we've figuredout about half of our tax
situation.
And our kid's in school.
And it could all be taken awayin a moment.
(02:11):
Um, I don't feel, I don't feellike we've done it.
Right?
We've, I mean, objectively onthe outside, we've done it.
We're skating, we're skating,we're skating on the lake.
And I'm like, the lake is goingto crack and I'm going to fall
through and be in the icy water.
And I don't know when, and Idon't know if it'll just be a
(02:36):
crack or if suddenly the bottomwill collapse out from under me.
Um, but.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (02:46):
And the way, when you describe that,
what I feel in my body is how,like if you were skating in a,
in a skating rink, then you canreally abandon yourself to the
joy.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (02:56):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (02:56):
But if you feel like there's thin
ice, you can never relax.
You're always holding yourselftense, waiting for that moment
to come.
What's, do you know what it isthat's making it feel
precarious?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (03:09):
Yeah, it's my future.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (03:11):
Well, more specifically, Amy,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (03:13):
Well, I have to think about what I can
say that goes out to the world,um, that doesn't compromise.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (03:21):
well, actually, let me speak to that
for a second because both Amyand I, dear listeners, are
living real lives, you know,we're not just recording a
podcast and sipping, you know,whatever you drink in Spain and
eating croissants
la-chingona_1_12-19-2 (03:37):
Vermouth.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (03:42):
Some of the heavy garbage that comes
with being in your middle ages.
And not all of that is stuff wewant to share publicly, for
obvious reasons.
But what you have to know isthat when you leave your home
country and go to anothercountry, not only does that
stuff not magically disappear,but I think Amy would agree with
(04:06):
me that it becomes harder ormore complex because You know,
you're dealing with things at adistance.
You feel like things arethreatening something you're
trying so hard to do and couldtake it from you.
And, you know, and then there'sjust stupid stuff like time
zones just literally making itharder to actually deal with
(04:29):
bureaucratic stuff.
So both of us have stuff thatwe're not sharing with you guys,
but it's, it's
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (04:37):
Ever present, permeating everything
that we do and think about onsome level.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (04:43):
Exactly.
So, so we, what you're saying isit is that heavy life stuff that
is making it feel like thisdream could be snatched away
from you.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (04:51):
Yeah, and to, to kind of give a sense
to the listener, I am, I am, Iam the sandwich generation.
The generation that birthed meis aging, not well.
And I have seven years before mychild goes to college.
(05:16):
I don't want my child to I don'twant my child to be in a school
in the United States.
And we're recording thisDecember 19th, which is just
days after a private school, aprivate Christian school, exper
was number 83 in 2024, to
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (05:42):
does it, it feels like a fiction
story.
It feels like how could thatpossibly be real?
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (05:46):
Because Hollywood has created enough
dystopian freaking movies thatwe are, we are creating our
reality.
And it's dystopian and nasty.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (05:55):
Yeah, so the stakes, I mean, for me, I
want to be in France for my ownwell being.
I don't have children.
You're literally wanting to stayin Spain for the well being of
your child.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (06:06):
And mine! Let's get, let's, let's be
clear.
I also do not want to age in theUnited States.
I don't like how the US treatsits elders.
I don't like the health systemthat elders are, I don't like
the health system that anybodyis shuttled into, but when you
are elderly and you are in aculture that deems you
(06:27):
disposable, unlike Spain, whichvalidates and honors their
elders.
Like I, why would I choose thatif I had an out?
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (06:39):
Well, my, I didn't mean that you don't
want to protect yourself, but Ijust mean that your stakes are
even higher than mine.
And I think this is the thing,it's like You know, you think of
being an expat, okay, first yougot to prepare.
In my case, that was my husbandselling his company, me taking
my company apart, him building ahouse, renting that house, me
selling my house, investing inPortugal, like some huge steps.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (07:03):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (07:04):
You, you apply for your visa, you
finally get to your country.
Now you spend a year ishfiguring out what the hell is
going on, how to speak thelanguage really, not from a
textbook.
And, and you think, okay, once Iget through that, then I can
breathe.
And what I'm finding is, nope,there's a whole nother chapter
(07:24):
where now that you've made it,you're terrified.
It's going to be taken away fromyou.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (07:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was thinking about, you know,I was thinking about the other
day, how much I wish I had hadthe opportunity, how much I had
wished I had gotten out of theStates a decade ago, um, and
stayed
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (07:45):
that was, yeah.
Cause you lived in Costa
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (07:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Costa Rica and Mexico.
Um, and neither of those placeswere the right places.
Because we were not aseconomically stable as we are
now.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10 (08:00):
Because this stuff is expensive folks
way more than you think it'sgoing to
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (08:04):
Yeah.
And, um, you know, had we donethat, I don't know that I would
have gotten my master's degree.
I don't know what would havehappened to my career, honestly.
At the time, the digital nomadvisa wasn't available, so we
would have had to go nonlucrative visa.
And there was a gray area,right, where we could still work
(08:26):
and make an income on the nonlucrative visa because
loopholes, which they've nowclosed.
But, you know, if Spain wasn'teven on my radar then it would
have been Canada and thatwouldn't have, wouldn't have
turned, turned out so well.
But I,
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (08:44):
is it not far enough or what do you
mean by not turned out so well?
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (08:49):
because in my opinion, Over the last
four or five years, the entireEnglish speaking, western,
industrialized world has goneinsane.
Just I don't really want to gettoo political, though.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (09:09):
Oh, well, then let's not.
Okay.
So Canada wouldn't have worked.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (09:12):
Yeah, Canada wouldn't have worked.,
And You know, yeah, like I said,Spain wasn't on my radar, but
you know, had I had Spain beenon my radar, had we made it here
a decade ago, I would have hadmy residency by now, which would
give me the freedom to go backand forth to the states and take
(09:34):
care of family matters withoutthe risk of losing my
qualification for residency infive years.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (09:41):
Exactly.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (09:44):
My child would be fully integrated
into the culture in a way thathe won't ever be able to because
he would have grown up in itand, yeah, you know, been a part
of the culture in a way that hewon't ever be because of when we
moved.
Um, and I could have had evenif, even if things go as bad as
(10:10):
I'm expecting them to and I haveto go back.
To the States for six months, ayear, four years, God knows how
long.
I would have at least had adecade to enjoy this moment
instead of maybe six more monthsor maybe another year or maybe
(10:31):
who knows.
And I think that's the thingthat's so, that feel, the thing
that feels like thin ice for meis that I know things are going
to change.
I don't know how far along theprocess of full integration I
will be when the time comes, butsince I've moved here, I have
realized that that time will beshorter than I want it to be and
(10:52):
shorter than I thought it wouldbe when we started this process.
And so things will change thatwill impact.
How we're staying here that willhave us likely need to re look
at the visa process and workaround that.
Um, and in going back to theStates and taking care of
(11:14):
things, whenever that moment is,but will be sooner rather than
later, I don't know how longI'll need to be there.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (11:24):
Do you see yourself going back and
having your husband and son stayin Spain?
Could they pursue residency andultimately you could just.
I'm going to be married to aresident.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (11:35):
I think logistically that could
happen, but Emotionally, I don'tthink any of us would do well
there.
We're so tight knit.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (11:43):
cause I'd be a lot of time apart.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (11:45):
Yeah, we're so tight knit as a family
and I don't think it's good formy son to be in the budding
stages of adolescence or perhapsin adolescence and not have a
mother around.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (12:01):
See listeners, we're feeling heavy
stuff today.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (12:05):
Yeah.
So, you know, all of this hasbeen affecting Do I pursue
getting property in Spain?
Do I not pursue getting propertyin Spain?
If I pursue getting property inSpain and we get property in
Spain and this stuff happens andwe have to reapply for the visa
as though we hadn't already gotthe process started, will having
(12:28):
a property in Spain help us out?
If it helps us out, well, yes,we should do that.
If it doesn't help us out, whatare What are the tax
implications of then having aproperty in Spain?
Cause I need to be thinkingabout that and globally.
And this is something too, thatI think people in the U S don't
necessarily realize globally,the entire world is cracking
(12:49):
down on immigration.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (12:50):
Yeah.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (12:52):
So Spain has already scrapped the
golden visa.
They've made that decision.
It's happening in January whereyou will no longer be able to
get.
A visa with a pathway toresidency simply by having
enough money to buy a half amillion euro house We missed
that window And I I do actuallyhave quite a lot of feelings
about missing that windowBecause that also would have
(13:15):
made my life a lot easierBecause there's no travel
restrictions on the golden visalike there are with the digital
nomad visa um Yeah, it reallyfreaking sucks.
France is cracking down onimmigration.
They're doing border checks now,um, or they, they've said
they're going to start doingborder checks at the Spain
French border when you'retraveling by car because of
(13:38):
concerns about immigration,illegal immigration into France
through Spain.
Um, so, you know, Britainobviously is having issues with
immigrants.
Um, and immigration, and thereis a big anti immigration
sentiment happening in Britainas well.
Germany is having problems, um,so, you know, what, what people
(14:06):
are feeling as strong antiimmigration sentiment in the U.
S.
is by no means a Trump onlyphenomenon.
It is happening across theworld, and I, and also something
else that's happening across theworld is incumbent leaders.
are getting ousted.
They're not being reelected,which is uncommon.
Usually an incumbent gets theseat and that's not happening
(14:30):
right now.
There is a lot of disruptionworldwide.
It's not just happening in thestates.
And so this has an element ofinsecurity.
If I have to take care ofmatters at home and I come back,
will Spain let me in?
Will they be as welcoming Asthey are right now.
(14:53):
Logically, I would say I imagineso because they still need those
tax dollars from you know, fromforeigners who are
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (15:07):
But it is, it is the uncertainty
that makes it all so exciting.
Precarious, because we don'tknow, and we've talked about
this before in episodes wherebecoming an expat is like
peeling off a layer of your skinand being, you know, just being
like, Oh, a new one will growback.
It'll be fine.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (15:27):
Here's a big question that everybody
wants to know the Rebecca.
Are you under anesthesia whenthe skin gets pulled
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (15:33):
No.
No.
No.
Well,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (15:38):
Okay, I feel like I may have gotten
some anesthesia because itdoesn't feel that graphically
atrocious to me.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (15:45):
wait,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (15:46):
Or maybe I'm just really good at
self hypnosis.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (15:50):
I think one of the things you just
said really struck me, which wasyou kind of pulled back to the
global perspective and you're,you're a hundred percent right.
The whole world is in a chapterof uncertainty right now.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (16:03):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (16:04):
And I wonder if that's part of why
I'm feeling so free fall rightnow.
It's not just my free fall.
Maybe the whole world is feelinglike it's in free fall in that
sense of security.
That we kind of take for grantedwhen things feel safe is just
missing.
You know, Pantone decided thatBrown was the color of the year.
(16:27):
Uh, technically mocha mousse,but it's Brown folks.
And I have feelings about colorof the year anyway, but what
that really is, it's always atrend forecast.
And what it's saying is theworld is craving.
Comfort and cozy and stabilityand that feeling of home,
because that's what brown doesin color psychology.
(16:49):
It is a very trustworthy,reliable, steady color.
You don't fear somebody in abrown suit, you know?
And it almost helps me torealize, well what am I saying,
it makes me feel less alone,even though I wouldn't wish this
feeling on anybody else.
(17:09):
But maybe we're all feeling abit of it together.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (17:12):
I can tell you my Seattle area
clients are definitely feelinglike the bottom's dropping out.
Um, you know, the politicalunrest.
Is problematic.
And, and creates a great deal ofuncertainty for a lot of people.
(17:37):
Uh, so yeah, maybe you are justkind of picking up on that
worldwide unsettled nature.
And ultimately, I think, I thinkpart of the reason why I'm like,
yeah, these are uncertain times.
We got to take that intoaccount, but I'm not, I don't
feel connected.
I don't feel attached to it.
Like, Oh my God, this is it.
The global thing is super duperproblematic for me.
(18:00):
I'm not viscerally feeling thatbecause what I'm the story that
I'm telling myself is that whatis happening is the beginning of
the ripple effect from thepandemic.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (18:17):
What do you mean by that?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (18:19):
That, you know, the pandemic was a
shake, right?
It was like the earthquake andin that point in time, we're
just holding on.
We're just like, okay, we got toget through this.
We got to get through this.
And now that we're, and I'mquoting here through it, we're
seeing the ripple effect.
We're seeing the, we'reexperiencing all of the things
(18:43):
that happen that you realize.
After the fact, result of theresult of the pandemic is
something that we are going tobe experiencing for the next
generation because the Childrenwho were impacted and who didn't
get the education that theyneeded and will have long term
impacts because of that, rightthere, that is going to
(19:06):
irreversibly shape how they viewthe world.
And it isn't really until theybecome adults.
that this chapter will be sealedand complete.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (19:18):
I like how you described it as a
shake because I do kind ofpicture like if a big, like a
big, big earthquake happens, asyou say, you hold on in the
moment and then you have toleave.
The building that you were safein and you survived and you look
at the rubble, you look ateverything around you that's
collapsed, you have to take aninventory of who you've lost and
find the people that you canfind and then you have to
(19:42):
rebuild.
The best outcome is thateverybody comes together and
holds hands and rebuildstogether.
And obviously right now we'vegot a lot of division in the
world but I also think we havethe opportunity to say Let's
build it a little differently.
You know, let me get to know myneighbors.
This is something that I'mreally, you know, marriages are
(20:04):
funny things.
I really want to know myneighbors.
I don't know where it comesfrom.
It might be a Southern thing.
Um, it might be the fact that Iwatched friends growing up and
I'm like, I want to just walkdown the hall and have a friend.
So we just, we finally movedinto an apartment where we're
going to be for seven months.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
I want to invite my neighborsover.
(20:25):
And my husband goes, don't dothat.
Probably because he grew up inJersey where, you know, you
protect yourself from otherpeople because other people are
out to get you, I guess.
Um, but, If we're going torebuild together, we have to
find a way to not be afraid ofour neighbors.
(20:47):
And I think the only way to notbe afraid of your neighbors is
to get to know them.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (20:51):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (20:51):
Even if it means now you have to say
hi to somebody who has badbreath in the hallway, or talks
too much, or, you know, alwayscomplains about you coming home
at 9 o'clock at night andslamming your door even though
you know you're not.
Like, I know neighbors can beproblematic.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (21:08):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (21:09):
But the more we isolate ourselves,
the bigger the problems become.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (21:14):
Yes and no.
I don't think, I don't thinkthat, I mean there's what, what,
what you're calling isolation.
I'm not perceiving as isolation.
I see that as the initialretraction where the earthquake
has just happened.
The first thing that you dobefore you go out into the world
(21:36):
is, Am I okay?
Are my family okay?
Are my people okay?
Where's my cat?
Right?
You
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (21:44):
very, it's very tribal.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (21:45):
Yeah, and that is the stage that we
are in.
This is why borders are closingdown.
This is why there's antiimmigration sentiment.
This is why there was such astrong, I think, conservative
pushback.
Why a lot of, like, cities aregetting tougher on crime because
the, you know, because of whathappened before is no longer
(22:05):
working for a lot of people.
And they, they feel a strongneed to take care of them, to
get taken, to be able to gettake care of themselves first.
So like when I say we're in theearly stages of the ripple
effect, I mean, we're in thevery early stages of the ripple
effect.
And it's going to take some timeon a global level for people to
(22:26):
feel safe enough to get to, toeven see who their neighbor is.
Because on the global stage,there's also a lot of conflict
brewing.
That's like any moment somethingcan explode and it can get
really, really nasty.
Mm
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (22:46):
of insecurity, you know, my own
free fall and your thin ice andnow the whole world.
Looking at 2025.
What are your thoughts foryourself?
Is it just take it day by day?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (23:00):
I keep skating on thin ice.
You know, if I can look ahead onthe lake and see a patch of ice
that looks a little thicker youbet I'm going to go in that
direction, but I'm not going toget off the pond.
And I'm here.
And I'm going to do the best Ican with the knowledge that I
(23:23):
have in each moment.
And the hardest thing, thehardest thing for me since this
past summer has been beingpresent and being able to
actually fully enjoy, I am inSpain, I am here in Spain, I
have these moments in Spain,soak them up because it
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (23:43):
Don't miss it.
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (23:44):
because it might get taken away.
I am so afraid.
to be here in Spain because whenthat has to change for how, how
long it ends up changing, themore attached I am to Spain, the
more it's going to hurt.
But if I don't be in the moment,and if I don't enjoy this
(24:09):
opportunity, I still mess out.
And I don't know how toreconcile that right now.
Because I'm very, very, I havevery, very cleverly, emotionally
protected myself.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (24:27):
But that creates distance between
yourself and the reality thatyou really want to experience.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (24:34):
right, and I don't know how to, I'm
not, I haven't yet figured outhow to hijack my protector.
So, and I don't, you know, partof me is like, well, this is,
this is the part that's tryingto protect me.
It's like, well, you don'treally want to do that.
You don't really want to openyourself up for like other
devastating heartbreak becauselike when, if, when you have to
(25:01):
go back, you also have to keepyour shit fucking together
because.
Sorry for my language, folks.
Uh, because like you're going tohave to step up to adulting in a
way that you have never beenasked to do that is decidedly
beyond your field of expertise.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (25:21):
And I think
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (25:22):
laying on the floor crying because you
miss Spain.
Right.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (25:31):
which was, it's almost like I'm
breaking through a shell andexperiencing a new level of
adulting that I've neverexperienced before.
And I literally said to my mom,I just don't think I'm strong
enough.
And you know, I've been throughreally dark moments,
particularly in my divorce,which is an obvious dark moment,
(25:53):
but also When I was starting myfirst company, I would literally
hide under my desk and cry.
I was hiding from the world.
And my husband, my new wonderfulhusband, over the years has
reminded me that the things thatput me under my desk, sometimes
literally, sometimesfiguratively, have changed over
the years.
(26:14):
The things that made me cry 20years ago, I laugh at now, I'm
like, I can handle that.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (26:20):
Right.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (26:21):
And I think that this is a leveling
up.
This is me.
finding out that I'm yet evenstronger than I thought I was.
I think this is probablysomething that a lot of people
in their 40s and 50s go through,especially when your parents do
start to age and you have toface things like, uh,
Alzheimer's and dementia in yourfamily members, because that's
(26:42):
happening in my family.
And you know, you, you go, Idon't know how I'm going to, to
do this.
And somehow, As long as you onlytake the next step, you keep
going.
And that's, that's how I see2025.
I, I want 2025 to be a year ofgrowth and adventure and rise
(27:05):
and shine.
But I think 2025 might just belive,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (27:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (27:14):
and be present because that's really
what I was doing yesterdaymorning.
I'm Ironically, not in Franceright now, I'm in Portugal, um,
but I want to be here inPortugal at the moment.
My, I will get too much in myhead.
I start spiraling thinking aboutthis possible bad outcome or
that possible bad outcome, noneof which is actually happening
(27:37):
right now, and I literally haveto take a couple deep breaths.
I, I'll spread out my arms andpoint my palms down towards the
ground to almost feel the energyof the earth come back up into
me and like feel my feet on theground and be like, you're here.
There are no tigers around youright now.
(27:57):
And I sometimes have to say thatout loud to myself because it's,
it can be really easy to gettrapped in this vortex of
emotion that isn't happeningright now.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (28:10):
Yep.
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (28:12):
But you know it could, so you're
like, I'm not being insane, I'mjust
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (28:17):
I'm just preparing.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (28:19):
Jinx! And it is a hard balance,
because, you know, if you'regonna go give a speech You do
want to practice that speech.
You do want to know what you'regoing to say to your audience.
And I think I treat a lot oflife like that.
Like I need to always be gettingready so that I'm at my best,
and I'm always performing at mytop level.
(28:42):
But I think it's um, slowlykilling me.
to constantly expect myself toperform at a race car level or
at an Olympic level.
An Olympian does not run at anOlympian speed 24 7,
la-chingona_1_12-19-20 (29:00):
Exactly.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (29:01):
but that's what I've been asking of
myself now for decades.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (29:05):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (29:07):
And France is slowly showing me an
alternative path.
It still boggles my mind to tryand think.
about life instead of work.
I don't get it, but I want it.
And that's what keeps me going.
I know why I moved here.
(29:28):
I know what I want for myselffrom this experience.
And I know that the only way toget it is to see this through,
even though I have no idea.
What that means.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (29:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10 (29:44):
There's nothing more to say.
Because there's no answers!
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (29:49):
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I just, you know, when I futuretrip like that, I'm always
asking myself, what will I do inthis situation more than what,
what if this happens?
It's more like, okay, if thishappens, what will I do?
If this happens, what will I do?
If
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (30:06):
Oh yeah, exactly.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (30:07):
what will I do?
And I think because there's somuch that I don't have control
over.
I'm like, well I don't havecontrol over that, so I'm not
gonna, not gonna worry aboutthat.
I'm not gonna worry about that.
I'm just gonna like, sort of,try not to worry about that.
(30:28):
Even though that's super hard.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (30:30):
Yeah, I'm like, are you actually
accomplishing that?
Because if so, you aredefinitely at least one human
level above me.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (30:37):
I think, well, bit by bit, bit by
bit, I mean the big thing thispast summer was like, you know,
choosing, feeling, feeling likeI was stuck.
Between choosing, you know,choosing the boomer generation
and sacrificing my child's, mychild, or choosing my child and
(30:59):
sacrificing my elders.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (31:01):
It's like an impossible choice.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (31:05):
It felt that way, and then I
remembered that myresponsibility is to my child.
rebecca_1_12-19-202 (31:13):
Absolutely.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (31:14):
And that I can't, I mean, as much
as, um, as much as it kills meto do that, if I did the
alternative, I don't think thatwould work out.
(31:34):
And you have to let adults, youcan't rescue adults from
themselves.
And were I to uproot everythingin an attempt to do that,
there's no guarantee I wouldhave any success.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (31:53):
true.
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (31:54):
Whereas I can definitely make choices
for my child that Iwholeheartedly believe will be
better for his future and make apositive impact.
And I can't say with a hundredpercent certainty that if I made
the other choice that that wouldbe the outcome.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102 (32:16):
That's an incredible level of important
clarity.
Yeah,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (32:26):
And I think that's really the only
reason why I am as like togetheras I am is because Folks, I got
started with therapy young and Ikept at it until I became an
adult and then through thatprocess until I became like a
good functioning adult.
(32:48):
And I can tell you the lastcouple weeks I've been thinking
like, gosh, it'd be nice to havea good therapist right now, but
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (32:54):
you are not the only one who had
that thought.
I am right there on that shipwith you.
I'm like, hmm, better help.
It's just one click away.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (33:02):
yeah, I don't recommend better help.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:05):
I have tried it and it's a kind of
a potluck of, of who you end upworking
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (33:09):
Yeah, I feel like, I,
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:11):
But the thing is, let's, can we talk
about that for a second for incase there's anybody else
looking for therapy or wishingthey had it too?
When I, when I was looking for atherapist, I couldn't find one.
There's the whole insurancething in network thing.
Are they even taking new clientsthing?
Because ever since the pandemictherapists are also overbooked.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (33:31):
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:32):
And that is why I ended up with
BetterHelp, and I think it's whyBetterHelp exists.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (33:36):
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:38):
I don't have good advice for
people, even myself, for findinghelp right now.
Do you?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (33:44):
I don't, I mean, my problem is
that because I've had about 30years of therapy, give or take,
the, the finding a therapist whoI'm not smarter than.
is that much harder.
So, which is why I'm not seekingtherapy at all because, you
know, the last couple of timesI've tried, I've been like,
(34:05):
well, yeah, I'm
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10 (34:08):
They're going back to fundamentals that
you're like, yeah, I kind of, Iknow these ones.
Like,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (34:11):
Yeah.
Or, or there, or they don'tactually have tools and
resources for Beyond the basicsthat you step out of college
with or, or, you know, I don'tknow.
I, I, I, I actually, I don'tknow.
I'm just making guesses.
But, uh, regardless to say, theyfelt rudimentary and inadequate
for where I'm at in my cognitiveand emotional processing.
(34:35):
Um, So, I'm not pursuingtherapy.
Because I don't want to take thetime and money to find somebody
only to be like, God, no thanks.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (34:45):
Yeah, and you're telling the starter
story over and over again, like,well, when I was three.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (34:51):
Oh, yeah.
I didn't think even if they wantme to do that in like the first
couple of sessions, I'm like,no, if this is how you do
therapy, then I know this isn'tgoing to work because I'm
passed.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (35:04):
Yeah, I will say that something I'm
really bad at,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (35:08):
Uh huh.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:08):
but that I know helps is literally
to call your friends and tellthem how you're feeling.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (35:17):
Mm hmm.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:18):
I am extremely bad at this because
I don't want to.
Um, be a burden on other people,and that's how it feels to me.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (35:28):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (35:29):
However, I know, logically, that number
one, it actually does reallyhelp because you won't feel as
alone because it turns out thateverybody's going through the
same garbage you are.
But maybe more importantly, yourfriends kind of like knowing
that you're not perfect.
I mean, they already know it.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (35:47):
But when you admit it and you show
it,
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:50):
It makes for a better friendship.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (35:52):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:52):
And it lets them also know that they
can reach out to you.
You know?
So, I'm, I'm saying this comingfrom a place of a person who's
very bad at this, but when I doit every four years, it's really
helpful.
So that would be my actualrecommendation because it can
(36:13):
feel really impossible to findprofessional help.
It can feel really impossible toafford professional help, but.
Your friends are there.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (36:21):
yeah, if you can find a good ear, use
it.
And if you, you know, to thedegree that you know what you
need in that moment, ask for itbeforehand.
You know, say like, oh here, donot tell me, do not give me
advice please.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (36:36):
Just listen.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (36:36):
Just, all I need right now is someone
to listen to what's happeningfor me.
But I don't want advice.
Please don't tell me how to fixit.
I'm not there yet.
You
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (36:46):
Yeah, and it's important to share with
the right person.
Not somebody who's going tosabotage you.
Not somebody who's going toimpose, uh, solutions on you
like a parent.
That's not
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (36:57):
Right.
Or make it about them in someweird way.
Cause
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (37:00):
Yeah,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (37:01):
that's dysfunctional.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (37:03):
But I find that over the years,
aside from not wanting to be aburden on people, the biggest
thing that got in my way wasembarrassment.
I remember specifically when Igot divorced, I felt incredibly
embarrassed.
about having failed at thisthing.
Like you, you invite all yourfriends to come to your wedding
and all your family members, andthey all celebrate with you and
(37:25):
they all give you presents andthey all paid money to fly to
wherever the hell you were.
And then seven years later,you're like, yeah, it didn't
work out.
Like that was reallyembarrassing to me.
And it turned out.
that there was another friendthat I wasn't close with at the
time.
She was actually going throughthe exact same thing and she
also wasn't telling anybodybecause she also felt incredibly
(37:49):
embarrassed.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (37:50):
Wow.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (37:51):
we came together, we were able to
grow and share and laugh and crytogether, not just about the
divorces, but also about thefact that we let our
embarrassment keep us from
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (38:06):
Getting support.
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (38:10):
And it doesn't help, it only hurts.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (38:13):
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (38:14):
So, I mean, let me clear that.
It only hurts if you don't reachout to the people who actually
love you.
I can clarify that.
Is there anything else we wantto say today?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (38:26):
I don't think so.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (38:29):
Wish us luck, guys.
We wish you luck.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (38:34):
Look for the miracle.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (38:37):
I do, I do think that there is
going to be Beauty.
A lot of beauty in 2025.
I don't think it's going to bean easy year, but I think it's
going to be one worth living,and I look forward to seeing it
blossom.
(38:57):
And I think maybe that's theright word for it, because there
is no control.
You can't force a flower tobloom.
You have to allow it.
You have to water it.
You have to give it sunshine,and then you have to wait.
And that might be 2025 for me.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (39:15):
Yep.
Awesome.
I'm just gonna keep skating.
And pray there are nosnowstorms.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (39:22):
Watch out for the cracks.
Listen, listen for the danger.
Skate the other
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (39:27):
Skate the other way.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (39:30):
All right, dear listeners.
Thank you for being with us onthis journey.
It's been a journey and it isn'tover yet.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (39:38):
Hasta luego.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (39:39):
À la
We hope you enjoyed this episodeof Bonjola.
If you did, the best thing youcan do is share it with another
person brave enough to moveabroad.
See you next time!
Welcome to Bonjola, a podcastabout two women, Amy and
Rebecca, who each moved from theUnited States to Europe to
become expats, Amy to Spain andRebecca to France.
We're here to share the highs,the lows, and the logistics of
this adventure, encourage you tofollow your own move abroad
dreams, and remind you thatyou're not alone when the going
gets tough.
Enjoy.
la-chingona_1_12-19-20 (00:24):
Bonjola, Rebecca.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (00:26):
Manjola, Amy.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (00:27):
Um, to our listeners, today's
episode is going to have aslightly different tone than you
may be accustomed to hearingfrom us because, um, because we
have chosen to record whilstshit gets real.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (00:43):
Yes, I have, I have just been crying,
and I am going to not be cryingas much as I can on this
recording, but no promises.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (00:50):
Don't believe you.
I think you're gonna be crying.
Maybe not as hard as you wereearlier, but I think you're
gonna get teary.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (00:58):
It's been a wild year.
It has been a wild ride.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (01:02):
Fuck it has, pardon my language,
guys.
I'm so sorry.
One of these days.
I'll either, I'll eithercontinuously remember to put
explicit so that you all knowwhat's coming or I'll stop
cursing.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (01:15):
Well, you just described, I asked you,
let me try that again.
I feel that I have been in freefall.
I don't think I knew it, but Ithink I've been in free fall for
a year, and now I am hyper awareof the fact that I am falling
through space, plummeting towhat feels like my death.
(01:36):
It's great, and you said thatyou feel like you're on thin
ice.
I'd like to hear more about whatyou mean by that.
Let's start there.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (01:48):
So for all intents and purposes,
we've made it.
We're here, we're settled.
We have kind of, we've figuredout about half of our tax
situation.
And our kid's in school.
And it could all be taken awayin a moment.
(02:11):
Um, I don't feel, I don't feellike we've done it.
Right?
We've, I mean, objectively onthe outside, we've done it.
We're skating, we're skating,we're skating on the lake.
And I'm like, the lake is goingto crack and I'm going to fall
through and be in the icy water.
And I don't know when, and Idon't know if it'll just be a
(02:36):
crack or if suddenly the bottomwill collapse out from under me.
Um, but.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (02:46):
And the way, when you describe that,
what I feel in my body is how,like if you were skating in a,
in a skating rink, then you canreally abandon yourself to the
joy.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (02:56):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (02:56):
But if you feel like there's thin
ice, you can never relax.
You're always holding yourselftense, waiting for that moment
to come.
What's, do you know what it isthat's making it feel
precarious?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (03:09):
Yeah, it's my future.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (03:11):
Well, more specifically, Amy,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (03:13):
Well, I have to think about what I can
say that goes out to the world,um, that doesn't compromise.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (03:21):
well, actually, let me speak to that
for a second because both Amyand I, dear listeners, are
living real lives, you know,we're not just recording a
podcast and sipping, you know,whatever you drink in Spain and
eating croissants
la-chingona_1_12-19-2 (03:37):
Vermouth.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (03:42):
Some of the heavy garbage that comes
with being in your middle ages.
And not all of that is stuff wewant to share publicly, for
obvious reasons.
But what you have to know isthat when you leave your home
country and go to anothercountry, not only does that
stuff not magically disappear,but I think Amy would agree with
(04:06):
me that it becomes harder ormore complex because You know,
you're dealing with things at adistance.
You feel like things arethreatening something you're
trying so hard to do and couldtake it from you.
And, you know, and then there'sjust stupid stuff like time
zones just literally making itharder to actually deal with
(04:29):
bureaucratic stuff.
So both of us have stuff thatwe're not sharing with you guys,
but it's, it's
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (04:37):
Ever present, permeating everything
that we do and think about onsome level.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (04:43):
Exactly.
So, so we, what you're saying isit is that heavy life stuff that
is making it feel like thisdream could be snatched away
from you.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (04:51):
Yeah, and to, to kind of give a sense
to the listener, I am, I am, Iam the sandwich generation.
The generation that birthed meis aging, not well.
And I have seven years before mychild goes to college.
(05:16):
I don't want my child to I don'twant my child to be in a school
in the United States.
And we're recording thisDecember 19th, which is just
days after a private school, aprivate Christian school, exper
was number 83 in 2024, to
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (05:42):
does it, it feels like a fiction
story.
It feels like how could thatpossibly be real?
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (05:46):
Because Hollywood has created enough
dystopian freaking movies thatwe are, we are creating our
reality.
And it's dystopian and nasty.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (05:55):
Yeah, so the stakes, I mean, for me, I
want to be in France for my ownwell being.
I don't have children.
You're literally wanting to stayin Spain for the well being of
your child.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (06:06):
And mine! Let's get, let's, let's be
clear.
I also do not want to age in theUnited States.
I don't like how the US treatsits elders.
I don't like the health systemthat elders are, I don't like
the health system that anybodyis shuttled into, but when you
are elderly and you are in aculture that deems you
(06:27):
disposable, unlike Spain, whichvalidates and honors their
elders.
Like I, why would I choose thatif I had an out?
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (06:39):
Well, my, I didn't mean that you don't
want to protect yourself, but Ijust mean that your stakes are
even higher than mine.
And I think this is the thing,it's like You know, you think of
being an expat, okay, first yougot to prepare.
In my case, that was my husbandselling his company, me taking
my company apart, him building ahouse, renting that house, me
selling my house, investing inPortugal, like some huge steps.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (07:03):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (07:04):
You, you apply for your visa, you
finally get to your country.
Now you spend a year ishfiguring out what the hell is
going on, how to speak thelanguage really, not from a
textbook.
And, and you think, okay, once Iget through that, then I can
breathe.
And what I'm finding is, nope,there's a whole nother chapter
(07:24):
where now that you've made it,you're terrified.
It's going to be taken away fromyou.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (07:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was thinking about, you know,I was thinking about the other
day, how much I wish I had hadthe opportunity, how much I had
wished I had gotten out of theStates a decade ago, um, and
stayed
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (07:45):
that was, yeah.
Cause you lived in Costa
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (07:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Costa Rica and Mexico.
Um, and neither of those placeswere the right places.
Because we were not aseconomically stable as we are
now.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10 (08:00):
Because this stuff is expensive folks
way more than you think it'sgoing to
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (08:04):
Yeah.
And, um, you know, had we donethat, I don't know that I would
have gotten my master's degree.
I don't know what would havehappened to my career, honestly.
At the time, the digital nomadvisa wasn't available, so we
would have had to go nonlucrative visa.
And there was a gray area,right, where we could still work
(08:26):
and make an income on the nonlucrative visa because
loopholes, which they've nowclosed.
But, you know, if Spain wasn'teven on my radar then it would
have been Canada and thatwouldn't have, wouldn't have
turned, turned out so well.
But I,
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (08:44):
is it not far enough or what do you
mean by not turned out so well?
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (08:49):
because in my opinion, Over the last
four or five years, the entireEnglish speaking, western,
industrialized world has goneinsane.
Just I don't really want to gettoo political, though.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (09:09):
Oh, well, then let's not.
Okay.
So Canada wouldn't have worked.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (09:12):
Yeah, Canada wouldn't have worked.,
And You know, yeah, like I said,Spain wasn't on my radar, but
you know, had I had Spain beenon my radar, had we made it here
a decade ago, I would have hadmy residency by now, which would
give me the freedom to go backand forth to the states and take
(09:34):
care of family matters withoutthe risk of losing my
qualification for residency infive years.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (09:41):
Exactly.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (09:44):
My child would be fully integrated
into the culture in a way thathe won't ever be able to because
he would have grown up in itand, yeah, you know, been a part
of the culture in a way that hewon't ever be because of when we
moved.
Um, and I could have had evenif, even if things go as bad as
(10:10):
I'm expecting them to and I haveto go back.
To the States for six months, ayear, four years, God knows how
long.
I would have at least had adecade to enjoy this moment
instead of maybe six more monthsor maybe another year or maybe
(10:31):
who knows.
And I think that's the thingthat's so, that feel, the thing
that feels like thin ice for meis that I know things are going
to change.
I don't know how far along theprocess of full integration I
will be when the time comes, butsince I've moved here, I have
realized that that time will beshorter than I want it to be and
(10:52):
shorter than I thought it wouldbe when we started this process.
And so things will change thatwill impact.
How we're staying here that willhave us likely need to re look
at the visa process and workaround that.
Um, and in going back to theStates and taking care of
(11:14):
things, whenever that moment is,but will be sooner rather than
later, I don't know how longI'll need to be there.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (11:24):
Do you see yourself going back and
having your husband and son stayin Spain?
Could they pursue residency andultimately you could just.
I'm going to be married to aresident.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (11:35):
I think logistically that could
happen, but Emotionally, I don'tthink any of us would do well
there.
We're so tight knit.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (11:43):
cause I'd be a lot of time apart.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (11:45):
Yeah, we're so tight knit as a family
and I don't think it's good formy son to be in the budding
stages of adolescence or perhapsin adolescence and not have a
mother around.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (12:01):
See listeners, we're feeling heavy
stuff today.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (12:05):
Yeah.
So, you know, all of this hasbeen affecting Do I pursue
getting property in Spain?
Do I not pursue getting propertyin Spain?
If I pursue getting property inSpain and we get property in
Spain and this stuff happens andwe have to reapply for the visa
as though we hadn't already gotthe process started, will having
(12:28):
a property in Spain help us out?
If it helps us out, well, yes,we should do that.
If it doesn't help us out, whatare What are the tax
implications of then having aproperty in Spain?
Cause I need to be thinkingabout that and globally.
And this is something too, thatI think people in the U S don't
necessarily realize globally,the entire world is cracking
(12:49):
down on immigration.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (12:50):
Yeah.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (12:52):
So Spain has already scrapped the
golden visa.
They've made that decision.
It's happening in January whereyou will no longer be able to
get.
A visa with a pathway toresidency simply by having
enough money to buy a half amillion euro house We missed
that window And I I do actuallyhave quite a lot of feelings
about missing that windowBecause that also would have
(13:15):
made my life a lot easierBecause there's no travel
restrictions on the golden visalike there are with the digital
nomad visa um Yeah, it reallyfreaking sucks.
France is cracking down onimmigration.
They're doing border checks now,um, or they, they've said
they're going to start doingborder checks at the Spain
French border when you'retraveling by car because of
(13:38):
concerns about immigration,illegal immigration into France
through Spain.
Um, so, you know, Britainobviously is having issues with
immigrants.
Um, and immigration, and thereis a big anti immigration
sentiment happening in Britainas well.
Germany is having problems, um,so, you know, what, what people
(14:06):
are feeling as strong antiimmigration sentiment in the U.
S.
is by no means a Trump onlyphenomenon.
It is happening across theworld, and I, and also something
else that's happening across theworld is incumbent leaders.
are getting ousted.
They're not being reelected,which is uncommon.
Usually an incumbent gets theseat and that's not happening
(14:30):
right now.
There is a lot of disruptionworldwide.
It's not just happening in thestates.
And so this has an element ofinsecurity.
If I have to take care ofmatters at home and I come back,
will Spain let me in?
Will they be as welcoming Asthey are right now.
(14:53):
Logically, I would say I imagineso because they still need those
tax dollars from you know, fromforeigners who are
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (15:07):
But it is, it is the uncertainty
that makes it all so exciting.
Precarious, because we don'tknow, and we've talked about
this before in episodes wherebecoming an expat is like
peeling off a layer of your skinand being, you know, just being
like, Oh, a new one will growback.
It'll be fine.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (15:27):
Here's a big question that everybody
wants to know the Rebecca.
Are you under anesthesia whenthe skin gets pulled
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (15:33):
No.
No.
No.
Well,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (15:38):
Okay, I feel like I may have gotten
some anesthesia because itdoesn't feel that graphically
atrocious to me.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (15:45):
wait,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (15:46):
Or maybe I'm just really good at
self hypnosis.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (15:50):
I think one of the things you just
said really struck me, which wasyou kind of pulled back to the
global perspective and you're,you're a hundred percent right.
The whole world is in a chapterof uncertainty right now.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (16:03):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (16:04):
And I wonder if that's part of why
I'm feeling so free fall rightnow.
It's not just my free fall.
Maybe the whole world is feelinglike it's in free fall in that
sense of security.
That we kind of take for grantedwhen things feel safe is just
missing.
You know, Pantone decided thatBrown was the color of the year.
(16:27):
Uh, technically mocha mousse,but it's Brown folks.
And I have feelings about colorof the year anyway, but what
that really is, it's always atrend forecast.
And what it's saying is theworld is craving.
Comfort and cozy and stabilityand that feeling of home,
because that's what brown doesin color psychology.
(16:49):
It is a very trustworthy,reliable, steady color.
You don't fear somebody in abrown suit, you know?
And it almost helps me torealize, well what am I saying,
it makes me feel less alone,even though I wouldn't wish this
feeling on anybody else.
(17:09):
But maybe we're all feeling abit of it together.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (17:12):
I can tell you my Seattle area
clients are definitely feelinglike the bottom's dropping out.
Um, you know, the politicalunrest.
Is problematic.
And, and creates a great deal ofuncertainty for a lot of people.
(17:37):
Uh, so yeah, maybe you are justkind of picking up on that
worldwide unsettled nature.
And ultimately, I think, I thinkpart of the reason why I'm like,
yeah, these are uncertain times.
We got to take that intoaccount, but I'm not, I don't
feel connected.
I don't feel attached to it.
Like, Oh my God, this is it.
The global thing is super duperproblematic for me.
(18:00):
I'm not viscerally feeling thatbecause what I'm the story that
I'm telling myself is that whatis happening is the beginning of
the ripple effect from thepandemic.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (18:17):
What do you mean by that?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (18:19):
That, you know, the pandemic was a
shake, right?
It was like the earthquake andin that point in time, we're
just holding on.
We're just like, okay, we got toget through this.
We got to get through this.
And now that we're, and I'mquoting here through it, we're
seeing the ripple effect.
We're seeing the, we'reexperiencing all of the things
(18:43):
that happen that you realize.
After the fact, result of theresult of the pandemic is
something that we are going tobe experiencing for the next
generation because the Childrenwho were impacted and who didn't
get the education that theyneeded and will have long term
impacts because of that, rightthere, that is going to
(19:06):
irreversibly shape how they viewthe world.
And it isn't really until theybecome adults.
that this chapter will be sealedand complete.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (19:18):
I like how you described it as a
shake because I do kind ofpicture like if a big, like a
big, big earthquake happens, asyou say, you hold on in the
moment and then you have toleave.
The building that you were safein and you survived and you look
at the rubble, you look ateverything around you that's
collapsed, you have to take aninventory of who you've lost and
find the people that you canfind and then you have to
(19:42):
rebuild.
The best outcome is thateverybody comes together and
holds hands and rebuildstogether.
And obviously right now we'vegot a lot of division in the
world but I also think we havethe opportunity to say Let's
build it a little differently.
You know, let me get to know myneighbors.
This is something that I'mreally, you know, marriages are
(20:04):
funny things.
I really want to know myneighbors.
I don't know where it comesfrom.
It might be a Southern thing.
Um, it might be the fact that Iwatched friends growing up and
I'm like, I want to just walkdown the hall and have a friend.
So we just, we finally movedinto an apartment where we're
going to be for seven months.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
I want to invite my neighborsover.
(20:25):
And my husband goes, don't dothat.
Probably because he grew up inJersey where, you know, you
protect yourself from otherpeople because other people are
out to get you, I guess.
Um, but, If we're going torebuild together, we have to
find a way to not be afraid ofour neighbors.
(20:47):
And I think the only way to notbe afraid of your neighbors is
to get to know them.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (20:51):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (20:51):
Even if it means now you have to say
hi to somebody who has badbreath in the hallway, or talks
too much, or, you know, alwayscomplains about you coming home
at 9 o'clock at night andslamming your door even though
you know you're not.
Like, I know neighbors can beproblematic.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (21:08):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (21:09):
But the more we isolate ourselves,
the bigger the problems become.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (21:14):
Yes and no.
I don't think, I don't thinkthat, I mean there's what, what,
what you're calling isolation.
I'm not perceiving as isolation.
I see that as the initialretraction where the earthquake
has just happened.
The first thing that you dobefore you go out into the world
(21:36):
is, Am I okay?
Are my family okay?
Are my people okay?
Where's my cat?
Right?
You
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (21:44):
very, it's very tribal.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (21:45):
Yeah, and that is the stage that we
are in.
This is why borders are closingdown.
This is why there's antiimmigration sentiment.
This is why there was such astrong, I think, conservative
pushback.
Why a lot of, like, cities aregetting tougher on crime because
the, you know, because of whathappened before is no longer
(22:05):
working for a lot of people.
And they, they feel a strongneed to take care of them, to
get taken, to be able to gettake care of themselves first.
So like when I say we're in theearly stages of the ripple
effect, I mean, we're in thevery early stages of the ripple
effect.
And it's going to take some timeon a global level for people to
(22:26):
feel safe enough to get to, toeven see who their neighbor is.
Because on the global stage,there's also a lot of conflict
brewing.
That's like any moment somethingcan explode and it can get
really, really nasty.
Mm
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (22:46):
of insecurity, you know, my own
free fall and your thin ice andnow the whole world.
Looking at 2025.
What are your thoughts foryourself?
Is it just take it day by day?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (23:00):
I keep skating on thin ice.
You know, if I can look ahead onthe lake and see a patch of ice
that looks a little thicker youbet I'm going to go in that
direction, but I'm not going toget off the pond.
And I'm here.
And I'm going to do the best Ican with the knowledge that I
(23:23):
have in each moment.
And the hardest thing, thehardest thing for me since this
past summer has been beingpresent and being able to
actually fully enjoy, I am inSpain, I am here in Spain, I
have these moments in Spain,soak them up because it
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (23:43):
Don't miss it.
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (23:44):
because it might get taken away.
I am so afraid.
to be here in Spain because whenthat has to change for how, how
long it ends up changing, themore attached I am to Spain, the
more it's going to hurt.
But if I don't be in the moment,and if I don't enjoy this
(24:09):
opportunity, I still mess out.
And I don't know how toreconcile that right now.
Because I'm very, very, I havevery, very cleverly, emotionally
protected myself.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (24:27):
But that creates distance between
yourself and the reality thatyou really want to experience.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (24:34):
right, and I don't know how to, I'm
not, I haven't yet figured outhow to hijack my protector.
So, and I don't, you know, partof me is like, well, this is,
this is the part that's tryingto protect me.
It's like, well, you don'treally want to do that.
You don't really want to openyourself up for like other
devastating heartbreak becauselike when, if, when you have to
(25:01):
go back, you also have to keepyour shit fucking together
because.
Sorry for my language, folks.
Uh, because like you're going tohave to step up to adulting in a
way that you have never beenasked to do that is decidedly
beyond your field of expertise.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (25:21):
And I think
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (25:22):
laying on the floor crying because you
miss Spain.
Right.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (25:31):
which was, it's almost like I'm
breaking through a shell andexperiencing a new level of
adulting that I've neverexperienced before.
And I literally said to my mom,I just don't think I'm strong
enough.
And you know, I've been throughreally dark moments,
particularly in my divorce,which is an obvious dark moment,
(25:53):
but also When I was starting myfirst company, I would literally
hide under my desk and cry.
I was hiding from the world.
And my husband, my new wonderfulhusband, over the years has
reminded me that the things thatput me under my desk, sometimes
literally, sometimesfiguratively, have changed over
the years.
(26:14):
The things that made me cry 20years ago, I laugh at now, I'm
like, I can handle that.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (26:20):
Right.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (26:21):
And I think that this is a leveling
up.
This is me.
finding out that I'm yet evenstronger than I thought I was.
I think this is probablysomething that a lot of people
in their 40s and 50s go through,especially when your parents do
start to age and you have toface things like, uh,
Alzheimer's and dementia in yourfamily members, because that's
(26:42):
happening in my family.
And you know, you, you go, Idon't know how I'm going to, to
do this.
And somehow, As long as you onlytake the next step, you keep
going.
And that's, that's how I see2025.
I, I want 2025 to be a year ofgrowth and adventure and rise
(27:05):
and shine.
But I think 2025 might just belive,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (27:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (27:14):
and be present because that's really
what I was doing yesterdaymorning.
I'm Ironically, not in Franceright now, I'm in Portugal, um,
but I want to be here inPortugal at the moment.
My, I will get too much in myhead.
I start spiraling thinking aboutthis possible bad outcome or
that possible bad outcome, noneof which is actually happening
(27:37):
right now, and I literally haveto take a couple deep breaths.
I, I'll spread out my arms andpoint my palms down towards the
ground to almost feel the energyof the earth come back up into
me and like feel my feet on theground and be like, you're here.
There are no tigers around youright now.
(27:57):
And I sometimes have to say thatout loud to myself because it's,
it can be really easy to gettrapped in this vortex of
emotion that isn't happeningright now.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (28:10):
Yep.
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (28:12):
But you know it could, so you're
like, I'm not being insane, I'mjust
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (28:17):
I'm just preparing.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (28:19):
Jinx! And it is a hard balance,
because, you know, if you'regonna go give a speech You do
want to practice that speech.
You do want to know what you'regoing to say to your audience.
And I think I treat a lot oflife like that.
Like I need to always be gettingready so that I'm at my best,
and I'm always performing at mytop level.
(28:42):
But I think it's um, slowlykilling me.
to constantly expect myself toperform at a race car level or
at an Olympic level.
An Olympian does not run at anOlympian speed 24 7,
la-chingona_1_12-19-20 (29:00):
Exactly.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (29:01):
but that's what I've been asking of
myself now for decades.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (29:05):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (29:07):
And France is slowly showing me an
alternative path.
It still boggles my mind to tryand think.
about life instead of work.
I don't get it, but I want it.
And that's what keeps me going.
I know why I moved here.
(29:28):
I know what I want for myselffrom this experience.
And I know that the only way toget it is to see this through,
even though I have no idea.
What that means.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (29:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10 (29:44):
There's nothing more to say.
Because there's no answers!
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (29:49):
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I just, you know, when I futuretrip like that, I'm always
asking myself, what will I do inthis situation more than what,
what if this happens?
It's more like, okay, if thishappens, what will I do?
If this happens, what will I do?
If
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (30:06):
Oh yeah, exactly.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (30:07):
what will I do?
And I think because there's somuch that I don't have control
over.
I'm like, well I don't havecontrol over that, so I'm not
gonna, not gonna worry aboutthat.
I'm not gonna worry about that.
I'm just gonna like, sort of,try not to worry about that.
(30:28):
Even though that's super hard.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (30:30):
Yeah, I'm like, are you actually
accomplishing that?
Because if so, you aredefinitely at least one human
level above me.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (30:37):
I think, well, bit by bit, bit by
bit, I mean the big thing thispast summer was like, you know,
choosing, feeling, feeling likeI was stuck.
Between choosing, you know,choosing the boomer generation
and sacrificing my child's, mychild, or choosing my child and
(30:59):
sacrificing my elders.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (31:01):
It's like an impossible choice.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (31:05):
It felt that way, and then I
remembered that myresponsibility is to my child.
rebecca_1_12-19-202 (31:13):
Absolutely.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (31:14):
And that I can't, I mean, as much
as, um, as much as it kills meto do that, if I did the
alternative, I don't think thatwould work out.
(31:34):
And you have to let adults, youcan't rescue adults from
themselves.
And were I to uproot everythingin an attempt to do that,
there's no guarantee I wouldhave any success.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (31:53):
true.
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (31:54):
Whereas I can definitely make choices
for my child that Iwholeheartedly believe will be
better for his future and make apositive impact.
And I can't say with a hundredpercent certainty that if I made
the other choice that that wouldbe the outcome.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102 (32:16):
That's an incredible level of important
clarity.
Yeah,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (32:26):
And I think that's really the only
reason why I am as like togetheras I am is because Folks, I got
started with therapy young and Ikept at it until I became an
adult and then through thatprocess until I became like a
good functioning adult.
(32:48):
And I can tell you the lastcouple weeks I've been thinking
like, gosh, it'd be nice to havea good therapist right now, but
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (32:54):
you are not the only one who had
that thought.
I am right there on that shipwith you.
I'm like, hmm, better help.
It's just one click away.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (33:02):
yeah, I don't recommend better help.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:05):
I have tried it and it's a kind of
a potluck of, of who you end upworking
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (33:09):
Yeah, I feel like, I,
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:11):
But the thing is, let's, can we talk
about that for a second for incase there's anybody else
looking for therapy or wishingthey had it too?
When I, when I was looking for atherapist, I couldn't find one.
There's the whole insurancething in network thing.
Are they even taking new clientsthing?
Because ever since the pandemictherapists are also overbooked.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (33:31):
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:32):
And that is why I ended up with
BetterHelp, and I think it's whyBetterHelp exists.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (33:36):
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (33:38):
I don't have good advice for
people, even myself, for findinghelp right now.
Do you?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (33:44):
I don't, I mean, my problem is
that because I've had about 30years of therapy, give or take,
the, the finding a therapist whoI'm not smarter than.
is that much harder.
So, which is why I'm not seekingtherapy at all because, you
know, the last couple of timesI've tried, I've been like,
(34:05):
well, yeah, I'm
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10 (34:08):
They're going back to fundamentals that
you're like, yeah, I kind of, Iknow these ones.
Like,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (34:11):
Yeah.
Or, or there, or they don'tactually have tools and
resources for Beyond the basicsthat you step out of college
with or, or, you know, I don'tknow.
I, I, I, I actually, I don'tknow.
I'm just making guesses.
But, uh, regardless to say, theyfelt rudimentary and inadequate
for where I'm at in my cognitiveand emotional processing.
(34:35):
Um, So, I'm not pursuingtherapy.
Because I don't want to take thetime and money to find somebody
only to be like, God, no thanks.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (34:45):
Yeah, and you're telling the starter
story over and over again, like,well, when I was three.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (34:51):
Oh, yeah.
I didn't think even if they wantme to do that in like the first
couple of sessions, I'm like,no, if this is how you do
therapy, then I know this isn'tgoing to work because I'm
passed.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (35:04):
Yeah, I will say that something I'm
really bad at,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (35:08):
Uh huh.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:08):
but that I know helps is literally
to call your friends and tellthem how you're feeling.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_022 (35:17):
Mm hmm.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:18):
I am extremely bad at this because
I don't want to.
Um, be a burden on other people,and that's how it feels to me.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (35:28):
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1 (35:29):
However, I know, logically, that number
one, it actually does reallyhelp because you won't feel as
alone because it turns out thateverybody's going through the
same garbage you are.
But maybe more importantly, yourfriends kind of like knowing
that you're not perfect.
I mean, they already know it.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_02 (35:47):
But when you admit it and you show
it,
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:50):
It makes for a better friendship.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (35:52):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (35:52):
And it lets them also know that they
can reach out to you.
You know?
So, I'm, I'm saying this comingfrom a place of a person who's
very bad at this, but when I doit every four years, it's really
helpful.
So that would be my actualrecommendation because it can
(36:13):
feel really impossible to findprofessional help.
It can feel really impossible toafford professional help, but.
Your friends are there.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (36:21):
yeah, if you can find a good ear, use
it.
And if you, you know, to thedegree that you know what you
need in that moment, ask for itbeforehand.
You know, say like, oh here, donot tell me, do not give me
advice please.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (36:36):
Just listen.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (36:36):
Just, all I need right now is someone
to listen to what's happeningfor me.
But I don't want advice.
Please don't tell me how to fixit.
I'm not there yet.
You
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (36:46):
Yeah, and it's important to share with
the right person.
Not somebody who's going tosabotage you.
Not somebody who's going toimpose, uh, solutions on you
like a parent.
That's not
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (36:57):
Right.
Or make it about them in someweird way.
Cause
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (37:00):
Yeah,
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024 (37:01):
that's dysfunctional.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (37:03):
But I find that over the years,
aside from not wanting to be aburden on people, the biggest
thing that got in my way wasembarrassment.
I remember specifically when Igot divorced, I felt incredibly
embarrassed.
about having failed at thisthing.
Like you, you invite all yourfriends to come to your wedding
and all your family members, andthey all celebrate with you and
(37:25):
they all give you presents andthey all paid money to fly to
wherever the hell you were.
And then seven years later,you're like, yeah, it didn't
work out.
Like that was reallyembarrassing to me.
And it turned out.
that there was another friendthat I wasn't close with at the
time.
She was actually going throughthe exact same thing and she
also wasn't telling anybodybecause she also felt incredibly
(37:49):
embarrassed.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (37:50):
Wow.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (37:51):
we came together, we were able to
grow and share and laugh and crytogether, not just about the
divorces, but also about thefact that we let our
embarrassment keep us from
la-chingona_1_12-19-202 (38:06):
Getting support.
Yeah.
Yeah.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (38:10):
And it doesn't help, it only hurts.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (38:13):
Yep.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (38:14):
So, I mean, let me clear that.
It only hurts if you don't reachout to the people who actually
love you.
I can clarify that.
Is there anything else we wantto say today?
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0225 (38:26):
I don't think so.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_10254 (38:29):
Wish us luck, guys.
We wish you luck.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (38:34):
Look for the miracle.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (38:37):
I do, I do think that there is
going to be Beauty.
A lot of beauty in 2025.
I don't think it's going to bean easy year, but I think it's
going to be one worth living,and I look forward to seeing it
blossom.
(38:57):
And I think maybe that's theright word for it, because there
is no control.
You can't force a flower tobloom.
You have to allow it.
You have to water it.
You have to give it sunshine,and then you have to wait.
And that might be 2025 for me.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_0 (39:15):
Yep.
Awesome.
I'm just gonna keep skating.
And pray there are nosnowstorms.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_1025 (39:22):
Watch out for the cracks.
Listen, listen for the danger.
Skate the other
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (39:27):
Skate the other way.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (39:30):
All right, dear listeners.
Thank you for being with us onthis journey.
It's been a journey and it isn'tover yet.
la-chingona_1_12-19-2024_ (39:38):
Hasta luego.
rebecca_1_12-19-2024_102544 (39:39):
À la
We hope you enjoyed this episodeof Bonjola.
If you did, the best thing youcan do is share it with another
person brave enough to moveabroad.
See you next time!
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