May 15, 2025 • 27 mins
Where to find Aimee:
- Instagram: @vibrancenutrition
- Nutrition Coaching: vibrancenutrition.com
- Podcast on Nutrition: Blasphemous Nutrition
- Substack on Nomadic Life: NomadicNomMom
Where to find Rebecca:
- Instagram and her life in Paris: @beseriouslyhappy
- Podcast for Interior Design-preneurs: Stuff Interior Designers Need to Know
- Biz Coaching for Interior Designers: seriouslyhappy.com
- Book on Interior Design Psychology: Happy Starts at Home
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Bonjhola, a podcastabout two women, Aimee and
Rebecca, who each move from theUnited States to Europe to
become expats.
Aimee to Spain and Rebecca toFrance.
We're here to share the highs,the lows, and the logistics of
this adventure.
Encourage you to follow yourown, move abroad dreams, and
remind you that you're not alonewhen the going gets tough.
Enjoy.
Aimee Delamore (00:24):
Bonjhola, Rebecca,
Rebecca West (00:25):
Bonjhola Aimee.
Aimee Delamore (00:26):
so it's been a week and you are fast
approaching.
Your Visa deadline, uh, forapplication.
So what's like, what's thestatus on that?
Rebecca West (00:37):
Yeah, so last time we talked, um, I thought I was
gonna be able to get the freemobile.
Uh, cellular account bill.
I had been, I had, I had made aFrench phone call, and they said
that they would be able toproduce one for me on Friday.
It is now Monday, since we'retalking about this, obviously no
bill emerged.
(00:59):
So I put on my grownup pantiesagain and I called again and I
got somebody much less patientwith their French.
Um.
We talked about this together,right?
How they weren't allowed tospeak in English, but yeah.
Okay.
This lady didn't speak inEnglish at all.
Here's what I think I understoodtoday.
No, they can't generate a bill,it's just impossible.
(01:23):
Um, and what I need to do iswrite a letter to this address
that she gave me saying I needan attest.
And I was like, but there's onlyseven days before I actually
need to submit everything.
And she's like, oh, you'll havean answer in three days.
And at this point, Aimee, I knowenough
Aimee Delamore (01:44):
I would so doubtful what?
Nothing happens in three days inEurope.
Rebecca West (01:50):
no.
And in this particular case,she's telling me that I can put
a letter in the mail today andthat somehow I will have an
answer both by email and post inthree days.
And I'm like.
No, that's not true.
I don't have enough French tosay that this isn't true, but I
know this isn't true, and eithershe's making up answers or she's
(02:14):
wishful thinking, or she'strying to get me off the phone
Aimee Delamore (02:18):
For all three.
Rebecca West (02:20):
all three.
'cause I kept like, she wouldstart out speaking French slowly
enough that I could understandit.
But then just like all of us,she would speed it up.
So the answer to the questionis, in seven days from this
recording, I am supposed tosubmit my Visa renewal
paperwork.
Um, or the final steps, right?
(02:40):
'cause they asked me for theseextra bits.
I do not know that I will haveanything that they're asking
for, and I don't know what thatmeans.
Worst case scenario that I cancome up with so far is that it
means that the 90 day clock onmy.
Status would start'cause you cantechnically be someplace on your
Aimee Delamore (03:03):
Your rin.
Yeah, your sherin.
90 days would begin.
Rebecca West (03:06):
Is that true?
I haven't done the research tofigure that out because maybe
the rules are different ifyou're coming off of a visa.
I don't know.
So in that scenario, do I goback to, do I have to go back to
the United States to apply for anew visa?
Could I do that from outside theSheen zone like England?
There are so many questions thatI have that I have not put the
(03:30):
effort into looking up because.
They may never be the questionsI need answered, and that's the
game, you know?
Go ahead.
Aimee Delamore (03:39):
lawyer?
Rebecca West (03:40):
Technically I do, and these days I've been asking
myself if the money I'm payinghim is worth it.
Aimee Delamore (03:49):
Hmm.
Rebecca West (03:50):
I think it still is because he has known what
paperwork to file.
His office can communicate withthe authorities and understand
what they're asking for.
But what it doesn't seem to dois necessarily advocate for me
in any way.
Aimee Delamore (04:06):
Right.
Right.
Rebecca West (04:07):
Um, which it felt like with your Spanish
experience that the lawyer wasactively helping you.
Was that, is that more true?
Is.
Aimee Delamore (04:17):
Um.
In a sense it was, I mean, likethe, uh, they made the
appointment for us to go to thepolice station to get the
fingerprints, to submit thepaperwork, to get the residency
card.
They were updating us in a.
(04:38):
Not completely timely, but notuntimely manner about the
changes that were happening tothe visa.
I don't know that that wasnecessarily them having good,
actually, no, I'm in Spain.
That was them having goodcustomer service because I think
there were probably plenty oflawyers who were not keeping
abreast on the weekly changesthat were happening with that
(05:00):
process as it was unfolding.
Um.
Yeah, I, I guess, I guess Iwould say that, yeah, I, I do
feel like they advocated for us,you know, when I think initially
think of that phrase,advocating, I think of someone
fighting for you, right.
To help you get what you need.
And in that sense, no, I don'tfeel like they fought for us,
but there wasn't much fightingto be done.
(05:21):
It was just a this is the nextstep.
This is the next step.
Okay, this has expired, so thisis what you have to do.
Again, this is, you know, and itwas sort of the, they did a
great job handholding,handholding us through all of
the tiny steps that we didn'tknow we would need in an
evolving situation.
Um,
Rebecca West (05:42):
It's hard when you have never done something before
to know what you should expect.
You know, what is good or badadvocacy and handholding in
these processes.
You know, I had a CPA ages andages ago that I'm now working
with.
Again, I left him because I gota surprise bill that made me
(06:02):
mad.
Then I have now worked with halfa dozen other CPAs, and now
through that process, I realizemy CPA, yeah, he didn't
communicate well on that bill,and I'm still legitimately
annoyed about that, but he'svery good at his job.
Now that I'm back with him, I'mlike, well, this is nice, but
(06:23):
when you first hire aprofessional service, and in our
case, in another language, inanother country for a process
we've never been through before.
It's hard to judge,
Aimee Delamore (06:33):
It is.
Rebecca West (06:33):
if there's no way to advocate for somebody because
the French bureaucracy is simplyset up the way it is, then this
is what advocacy looks like.
But I will say, and this iscoming from me as a business
coach, because in interiordesign we have a similar
problem.
Every single designer worksdifferently.
The outcomes and the projectsare always different.
(06:56):
The code varies not just bycountry and state, but by city.
When you're getting involved inhiring a contractor and a
designer and an architect, youalso don't know what to look for
or what to ask, what it should,what it could look like.
And on the designer side, whichis what I'm talking from, you
(07:19):
forget sometimes how to reallycounsel your client.
Through things like you have topay attention for the moments
where they're gonna lose theirshit because it's scary.
And then ideally, youproactively say, Hey, this
part's scary.
Don't worry, this is normal andI don't feel like I'm getting
(07:41):
that from this lawyer.
No bedside manner going, youare, you're okay.
You can breathe.
They're not gonna kick you outtathe country.
In, in seven days like I feelwith, with my renewal coming in
seven days, a little bit ofbedside handholding of going,
Hey, if this doesn't go through,here's what you should expect.
(08:05):
Would be really nice given thefact that I'm paying more than a
thousand euros for this guidanceand help.
Again, am I overpaying?
Am I underpaying?
I have no idea.
And that's part of where so muchof the expat anxiety comes from,
is feeling so clueless.
Aimee Delamore (08:23):
I do think, I do think, um, that is definitely an
American expectation.
You're, you're wanting customerservice from your service
provider.
Um, and yeah, bedside manner isa very American expectation.
We're so used to that being.
(08:45):
Part and parcel for what we get,whether it's medical or a
restaurant or you know, any, anykind of service, any kind of
human to human interaction thatwe are paying for, we expect to
be treated well, which is kindof funny because.
(09:05):
I find that that's not anexpectation here in Europe, but
human to human interaction ismore, has better bedside manner
than in the us.
Like you get, you get goodcustomer service when you pay
for it, but people don't treateach other well unless there's a
transaction
Rebecca West (09:24):
Oh yeah, I can
Aimee Delamore (09:26):
here, if there's a transaction happening, they
are just like, what do you need?
Okay.
Here, but in the streets, peopleare much kinder to each other
than my experience in the us.
Rebecca West (09:38):
I do think that that might be a Spanish versus
French thing on the streets.
We're pretty abrupt with eachother here in France
Aimee Delamore (09:44):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Rebecca West (09:46):
But what I do, um, definitely identify with is.
In America, we expect that, youknow, I'm paying good money,
therefore I should be treatedwell, is definitely part of the
mentality.
But at the same time here,things are such, there's so much
more matter of fact, here's yourform, fill it out.
(10:06):
Right?
And it will work.
And I don't know if it's aRebecca thing or an America
thing to go.
Even if I follow all the rules,I don't know that it will work.
Like is there a more of anexpectation that it will or more
of a resign that it might, itmight not, but you know, like
(10:29):
it's such a different vibe.
Aimee Delamore (10:32):
it is.
It is.
When we were going through the,the sort of last minute time
crunch situation with the visaand the lawyer was saying, Hey,
this document expires beforeyour plane trip and you're gonna
like, you know, we need you tolike fix this.
And they sent us this email on aFriday.
(10:54):
So by time we got it, they wereclosed.
And then it was a holiday onMonday in Spain.
It was just like, it was, youknow, oh my gosh.
It was insane.
And so, you know, we wanted likea, like quick meeting, what's
going on?
How do we fix this?
And, and her attitude was like,ah, no Pasana, everything's
fine.
It'll work out.
No big deal.
You know, oh, it's gonna costyou that much to change your
(11:14):
plane ticket in order to be herebefore this thing expires.
Well, that's not worth it.
I was like, oh, you know, so mybowels went into a panic for
nothing, but, but it very muchhere, here in Spain, there is
definitely an expectation that.
(11:35):
The system doesn't work well foranybody and things don't like,
things aren't as smooth for sureas the U, as in the us and it's
just the way it is and everybodyknows it, so nobody really
panics about it because again,nothing bad happens, right?
(11:56):
it's not like the French, Idon't think the French version
of ICE is gonna show up in yourapartment.
In the middle of the night, likea SWAT team and take you
directly to the airport in anunmarked vehicle, tinted
windows.
Um, you don't need to worryabout that for sure.
Rebecca West (12:15):
and I, and I don't, um, and
Aimee Delamore (12:17):
Good.
Rebecca West (12:18):
And as Damien points out, he's like, people
overstay visas all the time.
But I think the reason this iscausing me more anxiety than it
would otherwise, in addition tothe fact that my husband is
literally having surgerytomorrow, and you know, there's
a lot going on beyond just thisvisa renewal and the fact that I
can't so far get on the Frenchhealthcare system because of the
(12:39):
stupid address problems.
There's a lot right now, but inaddition, I know how.
Sadly, I want a Europeancitizenship and a European
lifestyle.
I'm pursuing it throughPortugal, but that, you know,
it's been
Aimee Delamore (12:57):
Three
Rebecca West (12:57):
two years.
Yeah, it's been at least, Ithink it's two years now since I
started that process.
I have every expectation thatit's gonna come through, but I
have no knowledge that it will.
So I know that I want thislong-term ability to retire in,
in Europe, and so I just don'twanna do anything along the path
(13:17):
that, that will make thatimpossible later.
So I'm building anxiety wherethere doesn't need to be any,
but that's why it's therebecause this is so important to
me, you know?
Aimee Delamore (13:31):
I like the fact that you acknowledge that you're
building anxiety that doesn'tneed to be there.
And I'm wondering, I'm wonderinglike, can you hold space for
something to be important, butimportant's, not necessitating
anxiety to go along with it.
Rebecca West (13:47):
I haven't been able to find that I.
Superpower yet.
Um, I don't know if you oranybody listening has seen the
movie Inside Out With Being, isthat the one with being, oh no,
I'm lying.
It's not inside out.
It was a raunchy cartoon calledHuman Resources and they have,
it's very like inside out, butfor grownups and everybody has
(14:13):
these anxiety mosquitoes.
I am an anxiety mosquitoapparently.
I would have to change my naturein order to be like, here's this
thing that's important to me,but I'm not gonna worry about
it.
I don't even know how to do.
Aimee Delamore (14:32):
What I started doing was reminding myself that
everything that I ever worriedabout in the past usually didn't
come to pass the way that Ithought it would.
And for things that happenedthat were not good in my life,
I'm still here.
So,
Rebecca West (14:50):
And they led us to where we are.
Aimee Delamore (14:52):
and they led us to where Exactly.
Exactly.
And then, you know, with, withthings like, I think I've, I
know I, I know we've talkedabout this privately.
I don't know that we've talkedabout it on the podcast, but you
know, we have a couple,actually, we, we've talked about
Dead in a ditch on the podcast,I
Rebecca West (15:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have
Aimee Delamore (15:08):
Like, if I'm not dead in a ditch, then I'm okay.
It's gonna be okay.
When you're dead in a ditch,that is when things are
officially not okay.
Right.
And then the other saying wehave is, uh, you know, if you
don't dump a rental car in ariver full of crocodiles, you're
doing great.
Like you're.
Rebecca West (15:28):
and Aimee, I'm not sure you have shared that story,
so we're gonna need to make sureto share that story in a feature
episode because that's a goodone.
Aimee Delamore (15:37):
It is a good one.
Rebecca West (15:38):
What I have to give myself some credit and the
thing I need to use is, thething I can do is what is the
best possible outcome?
So for example, let's say I haveto go back to the United, the
unlikely scenario where I haveto go back to the United States
and reapply for a French visa.
(15:59):
Very unlikely outcome, but it'sa possible
Aimee Delamore (16:01):
Extreme.
It's extremely unlikely giventhe fact that most people
applying for a French visa don'tlikely have the monetary ability
to go back to their country oforigin to reapply.
Rebecca West (16:14):
I am not sure that would stop the French government
from requiring that.
But that aside, the point is thebest outcome is I get to go back
to the United States and spendsome time with family, and I'm
trying to come up with other.
Silver linings.
I'll have to work on that.
But there are silver linings toevery single scenario
Aimee Delamore (16:40):
Think of how many bottles of Pepto Bimo you
could buy and drink.
You could do Pepto cocktailsevery night.
Rebecca West (16:49):
what I was really thinking is it might make
teaching and doing a a book toura little bit easier,
Aimee Delamore (16:55):
Oh, there's that too.
Rebecca West (16:57):
but Pepto cocktails sound amazing.
All right, well enough aboutthat.
We have eight minutes left onour 25 minute timer, and we were
going to talk about how we feelabout immigration having now
experienced life as immigrants.
So in our eight minutes, I'mgonna say this as my umbrella
statement.
(17:18):
I think it is absolutely 100%perfectly reasonable for a
country to decide who is and whoisn't going to come in, and to
make it really hard for people.
To come in and to make itillegal for people to come in
not following that path.
It's being really hard for me toget my visa here in France, but
(17:40):
maybe that's okay.
Maybe that is the bottom line.
Aimee Delamore (17:45):
I think, I think that is okay.
Um, you know, people wait adecade or more to get their.
Green card in the US here inSpain.
It is a, I think about five to10 years normal as well.
If you want to become a Spanishcitizen.
I think if you are going toimmigrate to a country, you
(18:08):
probably actually need at leastfive years to integrate into
that country and be in a placewhere you really already to
adopt that country as yourhomeland, right?
Rebecca West (18:24):
but I'm not just talking about actually getting
citizenship.
Even just getting to come andstay here for a year, getting to
renew for the second year.
I am jumping through someserious hoops and I don't know
what those hoops feel like foran American.
Immigrant, but just broadly, I'mlike, now that I'm experiencing
it, it sucks, but it feels likethe right answer.
Aimee Delamore (18:45):
It does suck and it does suck for people trying
to immigrate to the US as well.
I mean, there are so manystories, um, about how our
system has treated immigrants.
When I, when I say that I'm, I'mreferring specifically to Latin
American immigrants, um, that Ithink I certainly carried with
(19:11):
me into Spain, assuming.
That Spain would treat peoplecoming to immigrate into Spain
like the US treats LatinAmericans, and I had to do a lot
of talking to myself about, no,you, you have an American
passport that buys you somecredibility and some ease that.
Someone from, from Guatemala orMexico trying to get into the US
(19:34):
is not going to have, it's notgonna look the same for you,
even though you feel if you makeone false move, they're gonna
throw you out.
Um, and I do think that having,there is a way to be strict
without being inhumane.
And I think that is somethingthat perhaps.
(19:55):
We have not been very good at inthe United States with regards
to how we approach immigrationfor some people from some
nations.
I do think having strictimmigration policy though, is, I
think that is important becausewhat we've seen in the last five
or 10 years with, with very,with much more fluid borders in
(20:18):
Europe and in the states.
Is a degree of disruption andchaos on a cultural level, on an
economic level, on a resourceavailability level that has
people who were born there orpeople in, in the case of the
(20:40):
United States and illegalscoming over and getting access
to resources that people whoworked their ass off to get a
legitimate residency had tofight for, and then someone can
come across and get that forfree.
Like that's, I, this is why,this is why many of the Latin
(21:00):
population don't like theimmigration policies that were
happening before.
Because it used to be reallyfricking hard for them to get
what they get.
And now there's people comingacross that are basically
competing for the same, for, forresources.
Um,
Rebecca West (21:17):
You just touched on two really important points
there.
So you touched on one is theflood, right?
So in.
Where you live.
There's a lot of anti-tourismvibe, right?
It's not that people just hatetourists, but if there's too
many of anything, it's a badthing.
So one, as you say, there's thisflood and flow, and with that, I
(21:38):
think a little bit of a cavalierattitude of like, eh,
immigration policy.
Immigration, right?
But then you also talked about.
The fact that there's ageneration that followed the
rules and worked, as you say,their asses off to get in and
get established, and they're notgonna appreciate somebody
getting a free ride that isn'teven following the current
(22:02):
established rules.
Right?
Am I getting that right?
Aimee Delamore (22:05):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I know that's some of whathas been going on in the United
States, in Europe.
There's been, you know, there'sbeen a, a significant influx
from, I believe the, the MiddleEast as well as Africa up into
Northern Europe that has, um,created, you know, some, a bit
(22:25):
of culture clash and alsoresource strain because the
nations here are much more.
Generous with giving people wholive in their country access to
basic necessities of life, likefree healthcare and social
(22:46):
security that is meaningful andthings like that.
And then when you have a wholebunch of people come in from
another country and, um, theyare not a significant
contributor to the financialprocurement for that country
because many of them are workingextremely low paying jobs.
If they are even legal to workin the nation that they've
(23:08):
immigrated to.
That creates a significantfinancial strain on the nation
and puts the people who are bornand raised, they're in a bit of
a pickle, right?
Like.
Rebecca West (23:20):
But I'd like to bring up a counterpoint because
whenever I think about this, Ithink about when I was in the
Peace Corps.
Nicaragua and one of the things,it was real eyeopener for me,
you know, what was I 22?
And one of the things I realizedwas.
The US policies in the eightieshad stripped these central
American countries of theirnatural resources and, and their
(23:42):
entire social system.
So, you know, and now I'm hereand we were just in Amsterdam
and I was remembering how manyplaces were Dutch colonies, for
example, right?
And all these French colonies.
So all of these African andIndian peoples.
There's a, there's a lot ofhistory there, and that history
(24:02):
is getting more and more andmore distant, but the ripple
effects of these choices, theydon't just disappear just
because we've gone into a newgeneration.
So I do wonder, what, whatresponsibility do we have to
countries that are in desperatestraits, and when does that
responsibility end?
If you can tie it back to, inthis case, a decade in which I
(24:24):
lived, I'm not that old.
Aimee Delamore (24:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is, that is a problem.
That is way, way, way above mypay grade.
I'm not smart enough todetermine whether there is a
statute of limitations onreparations for, you know, for
things like that or not.
(24:47):
Uh, but fun fact, before Iforget, New York was a Dutch
colony
Rebecca West (24:52):
Yes it was.
It was new Amsterdam.
Yes.
Aimee Delamore (24:57):
and they turned out okay, Rebecca, so.
Rebecca West (25:01):
These are the questions, what we were talking
about earlier, silver linings,bad situations.
You know what leads to what?
There's no, there's no easy wayto untangle it, especially'cause
we've met our 25 minute limit onthis podcast recording,
Aimee Delamore (25:15):
Yes, we're trying really, really hard to
keep it at a short and sweetlength.
And so we've set a timer forourselves to re us in.
Rebecca West (25:23):
We could talk about it ad nauseum for three
hours and we wouldn't get anyfurther.
But I do think these areimportant things to ask
ourselves.
And if you're going to be anexpat.
Start asking yourself thesequestions.
Be ready to not be special andbe ready to have a lot of
questions that you can't answerand you have no control over,
(25:44):
and you may get shipped back toyour country.
I could in fact get shipped backto my country.
I have no right to stay here andI need to recognize that as
simply a fact
Aimee Delamore (25:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Honestly, I think if if more ofus approached more situations in
our lives as though just becauseI'm alive doesn't mean I
deserve.
Anything.
Life is not fair.
Life is not always kind.
And if you walk around thinkingthat life should be treating you
(26:17):
some kind of way, you're settingyourself up for quite a bit of
self-induced misery.
Rebecca West (26:24):
And that is such an American trait.
As global and worldly andculturally sensitive as I do
like to think I am and I try tobe.
I know I came here with a lot ofthat, like the lack of French
that I moved here with, the factthat I didn't think I would need
a permanent address.
(26:45):
There's quite a bit of hubris inthat when you really look back
at it, and I, I'm gonna go aheadand own it, wish I'd known
better, but the only way we canlearn better is by being willing
to go be a jerk in somebodyelse's country and figure it
out, or listen to our podcastbecause we can figure out some
(27:06):
of these things for you.
Aimee Delamore (27:08):
We will be jerks so you don't have to.
Rebecca West (27:11):
There you go.
Well, friends, I hope I havenews to share with you in our
next recordings, and I hope Iget to stay in France.
Aimee Delamore (27:19):
Until next time, folks, ASTO.
We hope you enjoyed this episodeof Bonjhola.
If you did, the best thing youcan do is share it with another
person, brave enough to moveabroad.
See you next time.
Welcome to Bonjhola, a podcastabout two women, Aimee and
Rebecca, who each move from theUnited States to Europe to
become expats.
Aimee to Spain and Rebecca toFrance.
We're here to share the highs,the lows, and the logistics of
this adventure.
Encourage you to follow yourown, move abroad dreams, and
remind you that you're not alonewhen the going gets tough.
Enjoy.
Aimee Delamore (00:24):
Bonjhola, Rebecca,
Rebecca West (00:25):
Bonjhola Aimee.
Aimee Delamore (00:26):
so it's been a week and you are fast
approaching.
Your Visa deadline, uh, forapplication.
So what's like, what's thestatus on that?
Rebecca West (00:37):
Yeah, so last time we talked, um, I thought I was
gonna be able to get the freemobile.
Uh, cellular account bill.
I had been, I had, I had made aFrench phone call, and they said
that they would be able toproduce one for me on Friday.
It is now Monday, since we'retalking about this, obviously no
bill emerged.
(00:59):
So I put on my grownup pantiesagain and I called again and I
got somebody much less patientwith their French.
Um.
We talked about this together,right?
How they weren't allowed tospeak in English, but yeah.
Okay.
This lady didn't speak inEnglish at all.
Here's what I think I understoodtoday.
No, they can't generate a bill,it's just impossible.
(01:23):
Um, and what I need to do iswrite a letter to this address
that she gave me saying I needan attest.
And I was like, but there's onlyseven days before I actually
need to submit everything.
And she's like, oh, you'll havean answer in three days.
And at this point, Aimee, I knowenough
Aimee Delamore (01:44):
I would so doubtful what?
Nothing happens in three days inEurope.
Rebecca West (01:50):
no.
And in this particular case,she's telling me that I can put
a letter in the mail today andthat somehow I will have an
answer both by email and post inthree days.
And I'm like.
No, that's not true.
I don't have enough French tosay that this isn't true, but I
know this isn't true, and eithershe's making up answers or she's
(02:14):
wishful thinking, or she'strying to get me off the phone
Aimee Delamore (02:18):
For all three.
Rebecca West (02:20):
all three.
'cause I kept like, she wouldstart out speaking French slowly
enough that I could understandit.
But then just like all of us,she would speed it up.
So the answer to the questionis, in seven days from this
recording, I am supposed tosubmit my Visa renewal
paperwork.
Um, or the final steps, right?
(02:40):
'cause they asked me for theseextra bits.
I do not know that I will haveanything that they're asking
for, and I don't know what thatmeans.
Worst case scenario that I cancome up with so far is that it
means that the 90 day clock onmy.
Status would start'cause you cantechnically be someplace on your
Aimee Delamore (03:03):
Your rin.
Yeah, your sherin.
90 days would begin.
Rebecca West (03:06):
Is that true?
I haven't done the research tofigure that out because maybe
the rules are different ifyou're coming off of a visa.
I don't know.
So in that scenario, do I goback to, do I have to go back to
the United States to apply for anew visa?
Could I do that from outside theSheen zone like England?
There are so many questions thatI have that I have not put the
(03:30):
effort into looking up because.
They may never be the questionsI need answered, and that's the
game, you know?
Go ahead.
Aimee Delamore (03:39):
lawyer?
Rebecca West (03:40):
Technically I do, and these days I've been asking
myself if the money I'm payinghim is worth it.
Aimee Delamore (03:49):
Hmm.
Rebecca West (03:50):
I think it still is because he has known what
paperwork to file.
His office can communicate withthe authorities and understand
what they're asking for.
But what it doesn't seem to dois necessarily advocate for me
in any way.
Aimee Delamore (04:06):
Right.
Right.
Rebecca West (04:07):
Um, which it felt like with your Spanish
experience that the lawyer wasactively helping you.
Was that, is that more true?
Is.
Aimee Delamore (04:17):
Um.
In a sense it was, I mean, likethe, uh, they made the
appointment for us to go to thepolice station to get the
fingerprints, to submit thepaperwork, to get the residency
card.
They were updating us in a.
(04:38):
Not completely timely, but notuntimely manner about the
changes that were happening tothe visa.
I don't know that that wasnecessarily them having good,
actually, no, I'm in Spain.
That was them having goodcustomer service because I think
there were probably plenty oflawyers who were not keeping
abreast on the weekly changesthat were happening with that
(05:00):
process as it was unfolding.
Um.
Yeah, I, I guess, I guess Iwould say that, yeah, I, I do
feel like they advocated for us,you know, when I think initially
think of that phrase,advocating, I think of someone
fighting for you, right.
To help you get what you need.
And in that sense, no, I don'tfeel like they fought for us,
but there wasn't much fightingto be done.
(05:21):
It was just a this is the nextstep.
This is the next step.
Okay, this has expired, so thisis what you have to do.
Again, this is, you know, and itwas sort of the, they did a
great job handholding,handholding us through all of
the tiny steps that we didn'tknow we would need in an
evolving situation.
Um,
Rebecca West (05:42):
It's hard when you have never done something before
to know what you should expect.
You know, what is good or badadvocacy and handholding in
these processes.
You know, I had a CPA ages andages ago that I'm now working
with.
Again, I left him because I gota surprise bill that made me
(06:02):
mad.
Then I have now worked with halfa dozen other CPAs, and now
through that process, I realizemy CPA, yeah, he didn't
communicate well on that bill,and I'm still legitimately
annoyed about that, but he'svery good at his job.
Now that I'm back with him, I'mlike, well, this is nice, but
(06:23):
when you first hire aprofessional service, and in our
case, in another language, inanother country for a process
we've never been through before.
It's hard to judge,
Aimee Delamore (06:33):
It is.
Rebecca West (06:33):
if there's no way to advocate for somebody because
the French bureaucracy is simplyset up the way it is, then this
is what advocacy looks like.
But I will say, and this iscoming from me as a business
coach, because in interiordesign we have a similar
problem.
Every single designer worksdifferently.
The outcomes and the projectsare always different.
(06:56):
The code varies not just bycountry and state, but by city.
When you're getting involved inhiring a contractor and a
designer and an architect, youalso don't know what to look for
or what to ask, what it should,what it could look like.
And on the designer side, whichis what I'm talking from, you
(07:19):
forget sometimes how to reallycounsel your client.
Through things like you have topay attention for the moments
where they're gonna lose theirshit because it's scary.
And then ideally, youproactively say, Hey, this
part's scary.
Don't worry, this is normal andI don't feel like I'm getting
(07:41):
that from this lawyer.
No bedside manner going, youare, you're okay.
You can breathe.
They're not gonna kick you outtathe country.
In, in seven days like I feelwith, with my renewal coming in
seven days, a little bit ofbedside handholding of going,
Hey, if this doesn't go through,here's what you should expect.
(08:05):
Would be really nice given thefact that I'm paying more than a
thousand euros for this guidanceand help.
Again, am I overpaying?
Am I underpaying?
I have no idea.
And that's part of where so muchof the expat anxiety comes from,
is feeling so clueless.
Aimee Delamore (08:23):
I do think, I do think, um, that is definitely an
American expectation.
You're, you're wanting customerservice from your service
provider.
Um, and yeah, bedside manner isa very American expectation.
We're so used to that being.
(08:45):
Part and parcel for what we get,whether it's medical or a
restaurant or you know, any, anykind of service, any kind of
human to human interaction thatwe are paying for, we expect to
be treated well, which is kindof funny because.
(09:05):
I find that that's not anexpectation here in Europe, but
human to human interaction ismore, has better bedside manner
than in the us.
Like you get, you get goodcustomer service when you pay
for it, but people don't treateach other well unless there's a
transaction
Rebecca West (09:24):
Oh yeah, I can
Aimee Delamore (09:26):
here, if there's a transaction happening, they
are just like, what do you need?
Okay.
Here, but in the streets, peopleare much kinder to each other
than my experience in the us.
Rebecca West (09:38):
I do think that that might be a Spanish versus
French thing on the streets.
We're pretty abrupt with eachother here in France
Aimee Delamore (09:44):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Rebecca West (09:46):
But what I do, um, definitely identify with is.
In America, we expect that, youknow, I'm paying good money,
therefore I should be treatedwell, is definitely part of the
mentality.
But at the same time here,things are such, there's so much
more matter of fact, here's yourform, fill it out.
(10:06):
Right?
And it will work.
And I don't know if it's aRebecca thing or an America
thing to go.
Even if I follow all the rules,I don't know that it will work.
Like is there a more of anexpectation that it will or more
of a resign that it might, itmight not, but you know, like
(10:29):
it's such a different vibe.
Aimee Delamore (10:32):
it is.
It is.
When we were going through the,the sort of last minute time
crunch situation with the visaand the lawyer was saying, Hey,
this document expires beforeyour plane trip and you're gonna
like, you know, we need you tolike fix this.
And they sent us this email on aFriday.
(10:54):
So by time we got it, they wereclosed.
And then it was a holiday onMonday in Spain.
It was just like, it was, youknow, oh my gosh.
It was insane.
And so, you know, we wanted likea, like quick meeting, what's
going on?
How do we fix this?
And, and her attitude was like,ah, no Pasana, everything's
fine.
It'll work out.
No big deal.
You know, oh, it's gonna costyou that much to change your
(11:14):
plane ticket in order to be herebefore this thing expires.
Well, that's not worth it.
I was like, oh, you know, so mybowels went into a panic for
nothing, but, but it very muchhere, here in Spain, there is
definitely an expectation that.
(11:35):
The system doesn't work well foranybody and things don't like,
things aren't as smooth for sureas the U, as in the us and it's
just the way it is and everybodyknows it, so nobody really
panics about it because again,nothing bad happens, right?
(11:56):
it's not like the French, Idon't think the French version
of ICE is gonna show up in yourapartment.
In the middle of the night, likea SWAT team and take you
directly to the airport in anunmarked vehicle, tinted
windows.
Um, you don't need to worryabout that for sure.
Rebecca West (12:15):
and I, and I don't, um, and
Aimee Delamore (12:17):
Good.
Rebecca West (12:18):
And as Damien points out, he's like, people
overstay visas all the time.
But I think the reason this iscausing me more anxiety than it
would otherwise, in addition tothe fact that my husband is
literally having surgerytomorrow, and you know, there's
a lot going on beyond just thisvisa renewal and the fact that I
can't so far get on the Frenchhealthcare system because of the
(12:39):
stupid address problems.
There's a lot right now, but inaddition, I know how.
Sadly, I want a Europeancitizenship and a European
lifestyle.
I'm pursuing it throughPortugal, but that, you know,
it's been
Aimee Delamore (12:57):
Three
Rebecca West (12:57):
two years.
Yeah, it's been at least, Ithink it's two years now since I
started that process.
I have every expectation thatit's gonna come through, but I
have no knowledge that it will.
So I know that I want thislong-term ability to retire in,
in Europe, and so I just don'twanna do anything along the path
(13:17):
that, that will make thatimpossible later.
So I'm building anxiety wherethere doesn't need to be any,
but that's why it's therebecause this is so important to
me, you know?
Aimee Delamore (13:31):
I like the fact that you acknowledge that you're
building anxiety that doesn'tneed to be there.
And I'm wondering, I'm wonderinglike, can you hold space for
something to be important, butimportant's, not necessitating
anxiety to go along with it.
Rebecca West (13:47):
I haven't been able to find that I.
Superpower yet.
Um, I don't know if you oranybody listening has seen the
movie Inside Out With Being, isthat the one with being, oh no,
I'm lying.
It's not inside out.
It was a raunchy cartoon calledHuman Resources and they have,
it's very like inside out, butfor grownups and everybody has
(14:13):
these anxiety mosquitoes.
I am an anxiety mosquitoapparently.
I would have to change my naturein order to be like, here's this
thing that's important to me,but I'm not gonna worry about
it.
I don't even know how to do.
Aimee Delamore (14:32):
What I started doing was reminding myself that
everything that I ever worriedabout in the past usually didn't
come to pass the way that Ithought it would.
And for things that happenedthat were not good in my life,
I'm still here.
So,
Rebecca West (14:50):
And they led us to where we are.
Aimee Delamore (14:52):
and they led us to where Exactly.
Exactly.
And then, you know, with, withthings like, I think I've, I
know I, I know we've talkedabout this privately.
I don't know that we've talkedabout it on the podcast, but you
know, we have a couple,actually, we, we've talked about
Dead in a ditch on the podcast,I
Rebecca West (15:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have
Aimee Delamore (15:08):
Like, if I'm not dead in a ditch, then I'm okay.
It's gonna be okay.
When you're dead in a ditch,that is when things are
officially not okay.
Right.
And then the other saying wehave is, uh, you know, if you
don't dump a rental car in ariver full of crocodiles, you're
doing great.
Like you're.
Rebecca West (15:28):
and Aimee, I'm not sure you have shared that story,
so we're gonna need to make sureto share that story in a feature
episode because that's a goodone.
Aimee Delamore (15:37):
It is a good one.
Rebecca West (15:38):
What I have to give myself some credit and the
thing I need to use is, thething I can do is what is the
best possible outcome?
So for example, let's say I haveto go back to the United, the
unlikely scenario where I haveto go back to the United States
and reapply for a French visa.
(15:59):
Very unlikely outcome, but it'sa possible
Aimee Delamore (16:01):
Extreme.
It's extremely unlikely giventhe fact that most people
applying for a French visa don'tlikely have the monetary ability
to go back to their country oforigin to reapply.
Rebecca West (16:14):
I am not sure that would stop the French government
from requiring that.
But that aside, the point is thebest outcome is I get to go back
to the United States and spendsome time with family, and I'm
trying to come up with other.
Silver linings.
I'll have to work on that.
But there are silver linings toevery single scenario
Aimee Delamore (16:40):
Think of how many bottles of Pepto Bimo you
could buy and drink.
You could do Pepto cocktailsevery night.
Rebecca West (16:49):
what I was really thinking is it might make
teaching and doing a a book toura little bit easier,
Aimee Delamore (16:55):
Oh, there's that too.
Rebecca West (16:57):
but Pepto cocktails sound amazing.
All right, well enough aboutthat.
We have eight minutes left onour 25 minute timer, and we were
going to talk about how we feelabout immigration having now
experienced life as immigrants.
So in our eight minutes, I'mgonna say this as my umbrella
statement.
(17:18):
I think it is absolutely 100%perfectly reasonable for a
country to decide who is and whoisn't going to come in, and to
make it really hard for people.
To come in and to make itillegal for people to come in
not following that path.
It's being really hard for me toget my visa here in France, but
(17:40):
maybe that's okay.
Maybe that is the bottom line.
Aimee Delamore (17:45):
I think, I think that is okay.
Um, you know, people wait adecade or more to get their.
Green card in the US here inSpain.
It is a, I think about five to10 years normal as well.
If you want to become a Spanishcitizen.
I think if you are going toimmigrate to a country, you
(18:08):
probably actually need at leastfive years to integrate into
that country and be in a placewhere you really already to
adopt that country as yourhomeland, right?
Rebecca West (18:24):
but I'm not just talking about actually getting
citizenship.
Even just getting to come andstay here for a year, getting to
renew for the second year.
I am jumping through someserious hoops and I don't know
what those hoops feel like foran American.
Immigrant, but just broadly, I'mlike, now that I'm experiencing
it, it sucks, but it feels likethe right answer.
Aimee Delamore (18:45):
It does suck and it does suck for people trying
to immigrate to the US as well.
I mean, there are so manystories, um, about how our
system has treated immigrants.
When I, when I say that I'm, I'mreferring specifically to Latin
American immigrants, um, that Ithink I certainly carried with
(19:11):
me into Spain, assuming.
That Spain would treat peoplecoming to immigrate into Spain
like the US treats LatinAmericans, and I had to do a lot
of talking to myself about, no,you, you have an American
passport that buys you somecredibility and some ease that.
Someone from, from Guatemala orMexico trying to get into the US
(19:34):
is not going to have, it's notgonna look the same for you,
even though you feel if you makeone false move, they're gonna
throw you out.
Um, and I do think that having,there is a way to be strict
without being inhumane.
And I think that is somethingthat perhaps.
(19:55):
We have not been very good at inthe United States with regards
to how we approach immigrationfor some people from some
nations.
I do think having strictimmigration policy though, is, I
think that is important becausewhat we've seen in the last five
or 10 years with, with very,with much more fluid borders in
(20:18):
Europe and in the states.
Is a degree of disruption andchaos on a cultural level, on an
economic level, on a resourceavailability level that has
people who were born there orpeople in, in the case of the
(20:40):
United States and illegalscoming over and getting access
to resources that people whoworked their ass off to get a
legitimate residency had tofight for, and then someone can
come across and get that forfree.
Like that's, I, this is why,this is why many of the Latin
(21:00):
population don't like theimmigration policies that were
happening before.
Because it used to be reallyfricking hard for them to get
what they get.
And now there's people comingacross that are basically
competing for the same, for, forresources.
Um,
Rebecca West (21:17):
You just touched on two really important points
there.
So you touched on one is theflood, right?
So in.
Where you live.
There's a lot of anti-tourismvibe, right?
It's not that people just hatetourists, but if there's too
many of anything, it's a badthing.
So one, as you say, there's thisflood and flow, and with that, I
(21:38):
think a little bit of a cavalierattitude of like, eh,
immigration policy.
Immigration, right?
But then you also talked about.
The fact that there's ageneration that followed the
rules and worked, as you say,their asses off to get in and
get established, and they're notgonna appreciate somebody
getting a free ride that isn'teven following the current
(22:02):
established rules.
Right?
Am I getting that right?
Aimee Delamore (22:05):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I know that's some of whathas been going on in the United
States, in Europe.
There's been, you know, there'sbeen a, a significant influx
from, I believe the, the MiddleEast as well as Africa up into
Northern Europe that has, um,created, you know, some, a bit
(22:25):
of culture clash and alsoresource strain because the
nations here are much more.
Generous with giving people wholive in their country access to
basic necessities of life, likefree healthcare and social
(22:46):
security that is meaningful andthings like that.
And then when you have a wholebunch of people come in from
another country and, um, theyare not a significant
contributor to the financialprocurement for that country
because many of them are workingextremely low paying jobs.
If they are even legal to workin the nation that they've
(23:08):
immigrated to.
That creates a significantfinancial strain on the nation
and puts the people who are bornand raised, they're in a bit of
a pickle, right?
Like.
Rebecca West (23:20):
But I'd like to bring up a counterpoint because
whenever I think about this, Ithink about when I was in the
Peace Corps.
Nicaragua and one of the things,it was real eyeopener for me,
you know, what was I 22?
And one of the things I realizedwas.
The US policies in the eightieshad stripped these central
American countries of theirnatural resources and, and their
(23:42):
entire social system.
So, you know, and now I'm hereand we were just in Amsterdam
and I was remembering how manyplaces were Dutch colonies, for
example, right?
And all these French colonies.
So all of these African andIndian peoples.
There's a, there's a lot ofhistory there, and that history
(24:02):
is getting more and more andmore distant, but the ripple
effects of these choices, theydon't just disappear just
because we've gone into a newgeneration.
So I do wonder, what, whatresponsibility do we have to
countries that are in desperatestraits, and when does that
responsibility end?
If you can tie it back to, inthis case, a decade in which I
(24:24):
lived, I'm not that old.
Aimee Delamore (24:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is, that is a problem.
That is way, way, way above mypay grade.
I'm not smart enough todetermine whether there is a
statute of limitations onreparations for, you know, for
things like that or not.
(24:47):
Uh, but fun fact, before Iforget, New York was a Dutch
colony
Rebecca West (24:52):
Yes it was.
It was new Amsterdam.
Yes.
Aimee Delamore (24:57):
and they turned out okay, Rebecca, so.
Rebecca West (25:01):
These are the questions, what we were talking
about earlier, silver linings,bad situations.
You know what leads to what?
There's no, there's no easy wayto untangle it, especially'cause
we've met our 25 minute limit onthis podcast recording,
Aimee Delamore (25:15):
Yes, we're trying really, really hard to
keep it at a short and sweetlength.
And so we've set a timer forourselves to re us in.
Rebecca West (25:23):
We could talk about it ad nauseum for three
hours and we wouldn't get anyfurther.
But I do think these areimportant things to ask
ourselves.
And if you're going to be anexpat.
Start asking yourself thesequestions.
Be ready to not be special andbe ready to have a lot of
questions that you can't answerand you have no control over,
(25:44):
and you may get shipped back toyour country.
I could in fact get shipped backto my country.
I have no right to stay here andI need to recognize that as
simply a fact
Aimee Delamore (25:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Honestly, I think if if more ofus approached more situations in
our lives as though just becauseI'm alive doesn't mean I
deserve.
Anything.
Life is not fair.
Life is not always kind.
And if you walk around thinkingthat life should be treating you
(26:17):
some kind of way, you're settingyourself up for quite a bit of
self-induced misery.
Rebecca West (26:24):
And that is such an American trait.
As global and worldly andculturally sensitive as I do
like to think I am and I try tobe.
I know I came here with a lot ofthat, like the lack of French
that I moved here with, the factthat I didn't think I would need
a permanent address.
(26:45):
There's quite a bit of hubris inthat when you really look back
at it, and I, I'm gonna go aheadand own it, wish I'd known
better, but the only way we canlearn better is by being willing
to go be a jerk in somebodyelse's country and figure it
out, or listen to our podcastbecause we can figure out some
(27:06):
of these things for you.
Aimee Delamore (27:08):
We will be jerks so you don't have to.
Rebecca West (27:11):
There you go.
Well, friends, I hope I havenews to share with you in our
next recordings, and I hope Iget to stay in France.
Aimee Delamore (27:19):
Until next time, folks, ASTO.
We hope you enjoyed this episodeof Bonjhola.
If you did, the best thing youcan do is share it with another
person, brave enough to moveabroad.
See you next time.
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