November 28, 2025 • 46 mins
Feeling like you’re doing everything and getting nowhere? We’ve been there, and we’re pulling the brakes on burnout to rebuild your book marketing on a foundation that actually moves books. Because book marketing burnout is real—and if you’ve been feeling stretched thin by ads, social media, newsletters, and endless promotion tasks, this episode is your reset. In this week’s Book Marketing Tips & Author Success Podcast, Penny and Amy break down what sustainable book marketing really looks like and how authors can simplify their efforts while improving results. You’ll learn why focusing on long-term assets—like your Amazon retail page, your newsletter, reader relationships, and a clean author website—outperforms chasing every new trend or algorithm shift. We also dig into practical fixes for author burnout: reducing social media overload, tightening your PR strategy, and creating evergreen newsletter templates you can reuse year-round. Whether you’re an indie, hybrid, or traditionally published author, this episode delivers smart, sustainable strategies you can maintain—and that actually sell books.
The heart of this conversation is sustainable marketing. We walk through the assets you control and that work 24/7: a clean, on-brand website; an optimized Amazon page with compelling description, keywords, and A+ Content; and a subscriber list you nurture with useful, human updates. We highlight local wins you can drive—libraries, bookstores, festivals—and the power of genuine thank-yous to reviewers and influencers. Finally, we share a quarterly audit routine to decide what to cut, what to keep, and which single experiment is worth testing next, so your effort compounds instead of scattering.
If you want clarity, fewer moving parts, and a plan you can actually maintain, this one’s for you. Subscribe for new episodes every Friday, text podcast to 888-402-8940 to share your questions, and if you found this helpful, leave a quick review to help other authors find us.
Help shape our 2026 content by taking our 30-second listener poll!
📱Text Penny & Amy: send us your show feedback, burning marketing questions and new topic ideas!
Text the word PODCAST to (888) 402-8940 to sign up to send us messages and receive new episode announcements. And don't forget to save our number!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sanseveri and AmyCornell.
And we're really excited for theshow.
I know we say that all the time,but we're really excited for the
show.
The show is kind of a blend oftwo ideas that Amy and I have
been talking about, uh two areasthat authors really struggle.
(00:24):
So we hope that if this is you,uh I think we've actually all
struggled with this, that youwill really enjoy the show.
But first, we're we're soexcited.
So we're sitting in the greenroom and we so a couple of
things.
First, we have a listener surveyand we're really trying to shape
the shows for 2020, 2026.
So we would love to get yourfeedback on the show.
(00:48):
And I'll tell you something.
If you fill out the form or ifyou've already filled out the
form, and of course it'sanonymous, so it's not gonna,
you know, I'm not asking you tosend your confirmation of what
you what you said or thecomments that you put or
anything like that.
But if you forward to me, if yousend me, send us an email and
let us know that you filled outthe form, we'll send you some
cool swag.
(01:09):
Uh just as a maybe it's a bribe,call it a bribe, whatever.
It's also kind of a bribebecause we just win the green
room.
We went into some of theresponses that we've gotten.
And one of the listeners said,would love to hear more of Amy's
point of view.
And I'm like, okay, so I'm what?
Just nothing.
Like apparently more listenerswant to hear from you, Amy.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
And I um my initial reaction was they, it's probably
somebody who thinks, like,there's some commentary bubbling
under the surface here that theyneed to grab their popkin
popcorn for.
And they're probably like, maybewe should let her talk more
because she'll probably put herfoot in her mouth or something
and we'll get a good laugh outof it.
That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
And you know, I can tell you right now, there's with
Amy, I've been working with herfor over 14 years, there's
always something bubbling underthe surface.
So you are not wrong.
Uh, but yeah, I let's hope thatnobody gets on the survey and
just like, oh, Penny needs toshut up.
Um, I don't like less that pennyperson that'll just be the Amy
show in 2026.
But we appreciate.
(02:13):
So if you fill out the filledform, just shoot us an email,
let us know.
We really appreciate this.
You are the reason that we dothese shows.
We want you to shake the shows.
And, you know, by doing so,we'll hopefully make uh populate
the calendar with more ideasthat are really going to help to
drive your success.
The other thing that I wanted toremind you all is text the word
(02:34):
podcast to 888-402-8940.
You can talk to us directly.
We've gotten some responses.
I am like shocked at how manypeople love communicating with
us in podcast forum, in in, I'msorry, in text um about the
podcast.
It's really, really cool.
It's been a really cool surprisethat y'all are so vocal about
(02:58):
shows and questions and ideasand things like that.
So keep them coming.
Um, and and that's part of thereason why we wanted to do this
topic today, because I reallyfeel, and Amy feels the same
way.
There is uh sometimes it'sreally hard to keep going.
And we get that, and we hearthat a lot from authors.
(03:19):
So burnout, which is the firstpiece of this conversation, is
something that I mean, a lot ofauthors really face.
And it's, you know, you sitthere and you're just like, oh,
like, you know, the whole model,like, nothing is working.
I feel like I'm just throwing abunch of stuff up against the
wall and I don't really know.
I mean, Amy, you and I both hearthis, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Oh, yeah.
And I think it especially itstays front and center for me,
especially communicating with alot of our clients every day,
because so much of what we doalso comes with the option to
learn the next steps, take it tothe next level if they want to.
Not every client wants to dothat, but a lot of them do.
(04:03):
A lot of people work with usbecause they do want to learn
and they want to become moresavvy and they want to do their
next book release better.
You know what I mean?
But so with that, I mean, it'slike drinking from the fire hose
sometimes, you know, especiallyand it it comes with a mix of
both excitement, but also like,where do I start and what do I
(04:27):
focus on?
And trying to juggle all thethings when in reality that's
really not ever what weencourage anybody to do.
Don't try to do all the thingsat once, you know, just to check
it off your list.
We you guys probably anybodythat's listened for a while
hears us say that all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
Well, but I mean, we're always, I mean, authors
are told, and I see this at whenI speak at writers' conferences
too.
Authors are, you know, talkabout drinking from a fire hose.
I mean, I see authors coming outof conferences, and I and I
think conferences are reallyimportant.
So I just want to say, let'sjust kind of reframe that.
I think conferences, conferencesare really important, but you
(05:04):
know, authors come away fromevents or online classes that
they take or whatever, like Ihave to do it all, right?
I have to like, we have to postads, we have to, we have to run
ads, we have to post on socialmedia, we have to build our
email list, we have to do a booktour, we have to do a podcast
tour, then we have to launchanother book.
And it's like, wow, like nowonder that everybody just feels
(05:28):
a little deer in headlights.
And it's kind of, I think, oneof the reasons why, you know,
now, of course, day afterThanksgiving.
By the way, we hope you all hada really great and awesome and
amazing Thanksgiving.
But I think this is kind of theseason where we, and this is
part of the reason for thetiming of the show too, is, you
know, we are we're kind ofsitting back and we're
reevaluating and we're lookingat how far we've come this year,
(05:51):
or in some cases, that we feellike we haven't come far enough.
And I think that a lot of theburnout isn't necessarily coming
from the marketing itself.
Although, you know, you and Ihad a conversation in the green
room just about authors doingthings that they've literally
never done before in their life,or like we're in Amazon ads or
(06:12):
something like that.
So there's that part of it.
But it also comes, in myopinion, and this we'll dig into
more in the second half of theshow, is unsustainable strategy
stacking.
Like stacking strategies one ontop of the other that just
aren't sustainable to do, right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Right.
And without a consistent plan.
Also, yes.
I think for most people, even ifyou're not a huge planner, you
know, which I guess I I probablyconsider myself not that, I'm
very much like, okay, I canhandle 48 hours at a time most
usually in all areas of my life.
But even then, having somethingconsistent that you can count on
(06:53):
that you know is solid and thatyou've spent a little time
setting aside and planning outand confirming these are the
right things, the confidencethat you get from that makes
such a big difference comparedto frantically trying to just do
all the things to say thatthey've been completed.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Yeah, that's that's absolutely true.
And you just, you know, itbecomes checking off a list as
opposed to is this reallysomething that's gonna matter to
my readers?
And that's where kind ofstepping back and re-evaluating
sort of helps with that.
And I see this a lot with when Iwhen I teach on doing Amazon,
(07:33):
you know, Amazon ads, right?
So, you know, a lot of timesauthors will get into Amazon ads
and then they feel uncomfortabledoing like they again, this is
where the learning curve, likethey they feel like they have
such a learning curve, and I I II'm uncertain as to whether or
not, you know, I did it right orsomething.
And so, you know, checking oncea week becomes checking every
(07:58):
hour, which is not sustainableeither, because it just you
can't get any good data thatway.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Right.
Um absolutely anything thatyou're refreshing constantly it
turns into busy work that is notproductive.
SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Right, exactly.
And you know, your your um uhyour sales rank on Amazon, this
is another place that authorsare like, um, I'm just gonna
refresh this all the time.
I'm gonna, you know, the Amazonsales rank is wonky at best.
And it's, you know, it'saffected by a whole bunch of
other things that have little tonothing to do with the fact that
(08:40):
you just posted something onsocial media, right?
Or that you're running an ebookpromo or something.
So those kinds of kind of manicchecking is also something that
I think really gets to the toburn out.
Amy, you want to talk about sobecause this is one of our
particular pet peeves too.
It's the social media overload.
And it's easy to get into,believe me, it's really easy to
(09:03):
get caught up in it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, talk about a rabbithole, right?
I was gonna say the same thingwith ads, because once you start
looking at things and you'relike, well, why is this?
Why is that?
And you know, there's adifference.
Let's be very clear.
There's a difference betweendoing self-education and going
down a rabbit hole.
They are not the same.
And so the social mediaoverload, you know, feeling
pressure to post daily, spendingmore time creative, creating
(09:27):
content than you are writing,because, you know, again, this
is about sustainability.
What makes more sense for youlong term?
Posting on Instagram every day,or spending that time working on
your next book?
You know, let's let's berealistic about what's really
going to feed your brand longterm.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
You know, here's a secret nobody else pays
attention to us as much as wepay attention to our own work.
We get into traps like that too,Penny, right?
Where uh even with ournewsletter and the timing and
when it went out, we used to beso much more rigid about this
day and this time and at thishour and all that kind of stuff.
And then we realized nobody elseis tracking that closely.
You know, we were, and so it wassomething we were obsessing
(10:08):
about when at the end of theday, it's like, you know what?
It's better to send it out whenwe have the good content that we
really wanted to focus on readyto go.
Right.
Yeah.
And that made such a bigdifference.
And another one is obviouslycomparing your engagement
numbers to others.
You know, if you're looking foran author and they've got, you
know, 3,000 followers alreadyand you're thinking, oh my gosh,
I have 150 followers, what am Ieven doing here?
(10:31):
You know, it's yeah, it makes,you know, but we talk about all
the time quality over quantity,numbers can be very deceiving
across the board, but especiallyon social media.
So for what it's worth, if youare, if you do want to do some
like market research and seewhat other authors are up to,
check their engagement, youknow, check the likes, check the
comments, even like be a littlesneaky and click through on some
(10:54):
of the accounts that arefollowing them a lot.
Just make sure they look likereal people.
Again, I just got done sayingdon't go down the rabbit hole,
but candidly, if this is reallysomething that you are hung up
on, then doing some of thosechecks and kind of get like
resetting what your parametersare for success on social media
really makes a big difference.
You know?
Yeah.
Like, what are you here for?
(11:15):
And we talk about this a lot.
Don't be everywhere, beeverywhere that matters.
Typically, for most people,being on one primary social
media account is all you need todo.
It just really is based on yourdemographics.
And we've done plenty of showsabout knowing who your readers
are.
That work is so important.
Like, don't skip over that.
It it really does connect toevery single thing that you do
(11:37):
marketing-wise, knowing the insand outs of your readers, not
just the kind of books that theylike to read, but also their
lifestyle, what other contentthey're looking for, what
intrigues them.
You know what I mean?
Like if you are looking to builda brand, your brand can't just
be to sell your book.
You know, your brand has to bebigger than that.
And I'm a huge fan of using ascheduling app or an app that,
(12:00):
you know, you can do a bunch ofcontent at once and then set it
up to post for you.
Those are brilliant.
And even if you have to pay alittle bit, if social media is
really something that isimportant to you, or if we're
being realistic, is somethingthat is pretty critical based on
who your reader market is,because that might be something
too, whether you like socialmedia or not, you might have to
(12:21):
come to terms with the factthat, like, well, my demographic
is on social media a lot.
You know, they're probablylooking for me on there.
You know, once they finish mybook, they want to see my
Instagram account or whatever.
So that might mean that's whereyou need to be.
Schedule content, you know, setit and forget it.
I love the idea of setting asidea couple hours at the beginning
of each month and jamming outyour content for the month.
(12:43):
And then if something fun comesup, you snap a picture, great,
post it, whatever.
But then you know you've takencare of business, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I think that, and you know, theinteresting thing though, too,
is that social media we've done.
I actually just taught a classon Saturday about how deceptive
social media can be and how itfeels productive, but it really,
and sometimes it is productive.
Like I don't want to sit hereand just like, oh, Penny and Amy
are just slamming on socialmedia.
(13:12):
Sometimes it is productive,certainly, but social media
doesn't sell books.
Social media is a great way foryou to increase your visible
your broader visibility,certainly, but it doesn't
necessarily mean that you haveto do it on every single
platform, right?
So find the platform that reallyresonates.
(13:34):
We talk about this a lot.
Success leaves clues, right?
So find other similar authorsand start to follow them and see
where they're getting a reallygood vibe, like where they where
they are spending the majorityof their time and let that
inspire, don't copy, but letthat inspire your your choices.
So if you feel like you're justgonna complete overload, I love
(13:56):
the schedule and we do it.
So I will jam out posts for anentire month and um just get
them posted and just yeah, kindof set it and forget it, right?
In a way.
But you're better off being inone place and being and staying
(14:17):
super engaged in that oneplatform than trying to be on,
you know, on all of the things,because that's just not that's
absolutely not sustainable.
Um so newsletter burnout.
Now, newsletters, we've doneshows on newsletters,
newsletters, we're a huge fan ofthat.
Um but I think that authors whoare hyper focused on I must
(14:41):
build my list, I must add morepeople to my newsletter, I must
grow my numbers, are lessfocused on the content.
And Amy talked about thisearlier.
So our newsletter, like we wereso like, oh, we've got to get
this out a particular day.
Consistency is really, reallyimportant, right?
(15:02):
You want to be successful inanything.
People ask me that all the time.
Like, how have you, how has yourcompany lasted 25 years?
I mean, first off, we do greatwork, but we're also consistent
about everything that we do.
That said, you also have toweave in a little bit of
flexibility and you have toremember that everything that
you're doing is re has to bereader-facing.
So it's less about you stayingon your schedule as it is about
(15:26):
growing that connection withyour readers.
Because when you grow thatconnection with your reader, the
build your list will happenbecause readers will share.
Like, this is a greatnewsletter.
Your time is better spentcreating content that your
readers are really gonna loveand then repurposing that
(15:46):
content, right?
So um something, and it's takenus a long time really to get
here with our newsletter becausewe serve, yes, we serve authors,
but we serve authors who are inall different stages of writing
their book or putting their bookout there or the number of books
that they have out.
So we're, you know, much likewhen we create the podcast, a
(16:09):
lot of times we're meetingpeople at very different places
in their author career.
So what we, you know, what Ialways recommend to authors and
what Amy and I have kind of comeup with with our newsletter is
evergreen templates.
So we have evergreen pocketswithin the newsletter that we
fill.
And for you, that might be awriting update or books I'm
(16:29):
reading or highlighting a readeror something like that.
Creating some kind of a mastertemplate for your newsletter so
that you're not sitting thereevery month saying, What am I
gonna write about?
Right.
It's a much better way to stayon track with your newsletter as
(16:51):
opposed to, I'm not getting any,why am I not getting any
signups?
What's happening with my, Imean, signups are really
important.
And we have done whole shows on,in fact, I think if you go to
the newsletter show, you'll beable to hear it on how to grow
your newsletter list.
But figuring out how to, youknow, creating an actual
template for your newsletter anddifferent, you know, different
(17:11):
elements that you can even, youknow, you don't have to have,
you know, reader spotlight inevery single newsletter.
But, you know, I mean, if you'redoing a newsletter once a month,
and honestly, by the way, forthose of you sending your
newsletter out once a week, Godbless you.
I know Amy, sorry, Amy just likethrew up in the theory of the
recording.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
But short list of things I do every weekend,
honestly.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
But, you know, I mean, does do you really have I
mean, is to me, the content ismuch more important than the
frequency.
And honestly, we get so muchstuff in our inboxes.
It's in, it's, it's, it's, it'sinsane.
And half of it, I mean, I don'tknow about y'all.
I'm assuming that everybody isfacing the same thing.
(17:53):
But, you know, I got I got somenotice today for like, oh,
you've been a you're gonna getsome kind of award and blah,
blah, blah.
It's super exciting.
And it was like award for likescience fiction book of the
year.
Oh, congratulations.
Thanks.
I because it felt superappropriate.
It's right up there with theOprah book club that I got a
couple months ago.
(18:15):
Um you're much better offfocused on less, you know,
reader connection thanfrequency.
So if you have my permission,unless you're getting great open
rates setting it out every week,then God love you.
And then we would like to haveyou on so you could do a show
about what your secret is tothat.
But exactly once a month,honestly.
(18:36):
I would, you know, less isreally more.
Right.
Uh, you know, especially if youhave really, really good
content, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:45):
And I think when people say I don't know what to
write about, they're kind of,and this is not a knock, but
they're kind of missing thepoint of a newsletter.
And we need to reframe thepurpose of the newsletter, how
it serves your recipients, howit serves you, because really if
you get the right frame of mindfor what it's for, there really
shouldn't be a lot of this, Idon't know what to say.
(19:07):
And I love your I yourrecommendation of, you know,
figuring out these are thedifferent things I'm going to
rotate through that I can that Iget excited to talk about, that
I can talk about, that isconsistent in my life, that's
consistent in my author journey.
And then you don't hit thoseroadblocks where you're like, I
have nothing to say.
Because yeah, again, if you'reif you're getting to that point,
(19:28):
then you're not using yournewsletter in the right way or
for the right reasons.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
Well, but the other reason that you should, and this
is the same thing like when I,when I was talking about my,
when I was teaching that classon um, you know, social the
social media class on Saturday,the more that you can identify
the tracks that you want tospeak to, whether that's in
social media or in yournewsletter or writing blog posts
or doing podcasts, whatever thatis, the more that you can
(19:54):
identify those those quoteunquote tracks or templates,
right, that you're gonna, thatyou're gonna address, the more
that this, the more that ideaswill jump out at you.
But if you're approaching yournewsletter with every month
you're like, oh my gosh, what amI gonna say?
Like you just said, right?
What am I gonna do?
What am I gonna say?
Yeah, no wonder you're burnt outbecause who has that time to be
(20:16):
that creative?
Like you're reinventing thewheel every single month.
So stuff will start to jump outat you, like, oh, I could talk
about this next month, or Icould talk about that.
And this is something that I canlike save.
And Amy and I do this with thepodcast too, because sometimes
we get like idea bunnies thatjust multiply and they end up
filling our offices.
But then, you know, we kind ofbreak it down.
(20:37):
We're just like, oh, we shouldjust do this, you know, and and
these ideas will start to kindof pop into your mind, and the
new it becomes it just becomesso much easier.
SPEAKER_00 (20:49):
You know, exactly.
Um, so next next one.
No, I love this.
The spray and pray mistake foryou know, this is pitching, PR
outreach, getting a hold ofmedia, wanting to get coverage,
you know, and this happens, theburnout starts to happen when
you are just churning these out.
You know, you're just you yougot your list, you're hammering
(21:10):
them out.
It's more about getting it donethan it is about, again, I, you
know, I know I said it when itcame to the newsletter, but you
really have to understand thepurpose of what you're doing,
but then you really have to alsoput yourself in the position of
the recipient.
What are they looking for?
What's going to catch theirattention?
What's going to set you apart?
And also, Penny, I think it'sequally as important to think
(21:32):
about they get dozens, sometimeshundreds of these a week, right?
So how can you stand out and berespect but while also being
respectful of their time?
How can you make that yessomething easy for them?
Because when you go about doinganything with the right frame of
mind and really understandingthe goals, both for you for
(21:53):
yourself and the and therecipient, things get a lot more
structured, which then leads tothings getting a lot simpler and
easier to manage.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
You know, and when you just hammer out a bunch of
pitches and they're notcustomized and they're not
personalized and you haven'tdone your research, you're
realistically, you know, I'mjust gonna say it, you're
probably going to get a lot moreno's andor complete silence,
which is devastating.
Yeah, exactly.
Like we don't put time into thiswith the like, you know,
(22:22):
assuming we're going to get no'sacross the board.
Like obviously, we put our timeand energy in the marketing for
a positive response, no matterwhat it is.
But it's just this is one ofthose things where quality over
quantity is going to serve youin the long term.
So you're much better offspending your time personalizing
five or six pitches to the exactright people that you know are
(22:46):
interested in the kind ofcontent that you write, whether
it's genre fiction ornonfiction.
You know, just the moreconfident you are in your
choices and how you approachthem, the better response rate
you'll get, which means youdon't have to just hammer out
dozens and dozens and dozens ofthese hoping that something just
sticks.
(23:06):
You know, so you definitely youdon't want to confuse volume
with impact.
You know, you can have a lotmore impact with less work if
done the right way.
And that's what we'd reallyencourage everybody listening to
focus on.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Well, I I completely agree with that.
And I also think that there is apressure to, there's a pressure
to do, because you and I'vedone, I mean, cumulatively we've
done well over 35 years worth ofPR, right?
Given our time working together.
Yeah.
So we've seen a lot of authorsfeel very desperate to get
(23:44):
attention.
And I understand that.
I understand the desperation toget somebody to notice this book
that you have worked so veryhard on.
But here's the thing (23:53):
here's the deal is that if you are, if
you're just like Amy was saying,spray and pray, you just throw a
whole bunch of stuff up againstthe wall and you hope that some
of it sticks, the majority of itis not going to stick because
you're pitching out of sort ofdesperation rather than pitching
doing something that's reallyquality.
(24:15):
And very likely when authorsthat, you know, Amy and I have
worked with who come to us afterhaving done a lot of pitching on
their own and not gotten a lotof results, a lot of times like
they're pitching the wrongpeople, right?
So I want my memoir on the TodayShow, for example, and we've
done whole shows on this so wedon't have to go too far down
the rabbit hole.
Is there really an alignment?
So you may have a staggeringstory that everybody should
(24:38):
read, and I get it, but is thisreally something that a national
media outlet is going tofeature?
And the answer is maybe verylikely no.
But there's maybe an there ispotentially another more
productive way for you toapproach the pitching for your
book, whether that's nationalmedia or podcasts or reviewers
or bloggers, whatever that is.
(24:59):
It is going to feel so much moreproductive for you to feel to be
selective in your choices,personalized in your pitch, and
you know, focused in terms ofhow much you can actively do
every week than it is just tosay, because this is where, so
this is kind of the birth ofwhere a lot of uh uh hybrid
(25:24):
publishers and indie publisherswill sell these press release
packages, right?
So they sell these press releasepackages and they used to be a
lot of money, like I don't knowhow much they cost now.
Basically, they write a pressrelease, which that's first
wrong.
I love to get my use my littlesound effect.
That's the first wrong answer,right?
Because there is a bookpublished every eight seconds.
So writing a press release for abook is not my favorite use of
(25:48):
your time, right?
Or your money if you're havingsomebody else do it.
So you're writing a pressrelease, they're writing a press
release of the book, and thenthey're sending it out to like
5,000 media people across thecountry, and that's another
wrong answer.
I've seen lists that come fromthose.
So basically what they do isthey they just grab a whole
bunch of media and they spityour press release out to them.
(26:12):
I've seen romance novels go outto, I've seen that these pitch
lists and some they go out tolike Car and Driver or Birds and
Blooms.
You know, I mean, they'rethey're uh the overreach is not
gonna help you.
In fact, uh it's just it's acomplete waste of and they're
(26:33):
expensive.
Like I saw one of them was like$1,700.
I'm like, whoa, I could bespending that money on something
so much more productive.
So that's that's something justsomething to think about.
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
Yes, and Penny, you always talk about everything is
your resume.
So you really want to questionalso like, do I want my name
going out to places that arewildly inappropriate for my
book?
You know?
Yeah.
It's like you don't necessarilywant that to be.
I mean, I realize the world ishuge, media is huge, but believe
(27:02):
it or not, it's actually notthat huge.
You know, people talk, peoplework for multiple outlets, you
know, especially when peoplefreelance, things like that.
You just never know, right?
And so that's another reason tobe thoughtful with your
pitching.
It's all about like that is yourbrand, that is your resume, that
is what you're putting out inthe world.
So, I mean, if anything, justknowing that you're putting high
(27:25):
quality communication out thereand to the right people says a
lot about who you are as anauthor.
And I promise it will get you alot farther than all these
nonsense connections that youknow what I mean.
Because Penny, you and I get youyou mentioned it recently just a
few minutes ago, you and I getreally nonsense stuff.
And what's your initialreaction?
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Oh, yeah.
It just, it's yeah, it's just acomplete waste of my time.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Like I'm always like, oh God,you know what I mean?
Or like when people write us andsay, dear sirs, it's like, oh
yeah.
You know, yeah, it's like, no,no, sirs here, but thank you.
You know, it's like I wouldnever that am like ever, ever,
ever respond to another emailfrom that person, even if they
finally figured it out, becauseI'm like, clearly, you do not
care enough about my time orwhat we actually do to bother
(28:13):
doing additional couple minutesof research.
And you know what's so funny?
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
You know what's so funny is I got invited to do
this online virtual event andthey they emailed me and they
sold it, like, oh my gosh, thisis huge, and we have 30,000
people drawn.
I'm like, wow, that's a bignumber.
Like, this is impressive.
And so I, you know, they said,well, you know, here's a
calendar link, you know, book a10-minute call.
We'll talk to you about theevent and everything like that.
(28:41):
Two days later, I got threeemails, separate emails from
them with the same exact, whichof course they're inviting a lot
of people, so I get it, right?
Um, with separate, so threeseparate emails over a few days.
One was to Randall, right?
So same thing, Mary Randall.
The other one was to, they wereall to guys, basically.
(29:03):
So maybe I don't know, theypeople think that I'm a dude.
So I don't know.
But um, and so I wrote them andI said, you know, not Randall,
not Jimmy, not whatever it was.
Oh yeah, we're just we're justsending this out to a lot of
people.
I'm like, okay, so what thattells me is that you're not
being selective.
Like, I'm not really as specialas you made me feel with the
(29:25):
initial email because you'rebasically saying, I mean, yeah,
okay, so just to be fair, like Iget it, like email systems can,
you know, glitch, and I get allthe things, but it's kind of
weird that it like sort ofhappened over a few days, and
all of a sudden all these weird,weird random emails just anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
I know, and it always infuriates me for whoever
hired these people to do thattoo, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
And you know, we live in an age where it's very
easy to not feel special.
Like, and this is not me goingall Tony Robbins on in his
podcast, but because we get somuch spam, we get so much crap,
we get so much dear sirs.
Emails.
I mean, we get all of thisstuff.
It's really easy to make thepeople feel like you're wasting
their time.
They're not special.
(30:06):
They're not important enough foryou to pay attention.
And I'll tell you something,cutting back on the time that
you're spending, that you'refeel like you're spinning your
wheels and taking, like, ifyou're like, I have to pitch
like 50 people this month orsomething, try to pitch five and
do it really thoughtfully.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
You know what I mean?
Um exactly.
Like you're so much more likelyto get a response if you show
those five people that you payattention to what they cover,
what they're interested in, someof their previous work.
And honestly, in in the longrun, you still end up spending
less time than you would havetrying to make this massive list
and shoot out template emails.
SPEAKER_01 (30:45):
For sure.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think that so, so on theheels of this is um uh the topic
of sustainable book marketing.
And I am such a fan of this, andI don't mean to sound like I'm
900 years old, but sometimes Ilook at like I look at all these
(31:08):
new trends like, oh, look atthis brand new, like, like there
was like, I don't know, that nowthere's some new social media
site like Blue Jay or Bluebirdor something like that.
I don't even know what it'scalled.
And threads, like threads reallywent nowhere, but everybody kind
of jumped.
I mean, I don't know, didthreads really go anywhere in
terms of a social media site?
Like I know Instagram is stillkind of trying to push it, but I
(31:28):
I I think it's really sort offallen flat.
There are so every year Amy andI see uh, you know, a new social
media trend, a new must-dothing, a new algorithm, a new
thing that authors feel likethey have to chase.
Right.
(31:49):
And I'm a huge look, if you havethe time, if you've learned all
of these things, if this show islike Penny and Amy are not
telling me anything that I don'tknow, awesome.
As I said, you come on the showin 2026 and you can teach a
class.
I think that's great.
Like, how did you do it?
But if you've mastered all thethings, then go chase that shiny
(32:09):
new object.
But if you haven't, like themajority of us, or we're still
kind of like trying to playcatch-up with all the things
that are already on our plate.
Um I really recommend that youtake a look at everything that
you're doing and find thefoundational pieces that you
really want to invest your timein in the new year and really
(32:33):
own those, right?
And I think, I mean, Amy, do youwant to talk a little bit about
what we mean by sustainablemarketing?
Because that's the these areactually the fun things.
And oddly enough, we've done aton of shows on all of these
topics, which is great.
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Right.
And this, I mean, sustainable,we all we already kind of know
what that means in everydaylife, but this is truly the kind
of marketing that actually growswith your brand instead of
distracting you from everythingelse that you need to be
focusing on.
So everything we covered in thefirst part of the episode where
we talked about all thoseburnout trigger moments with all
(33:12):
of like where we see ithappening most, this is the
exact opposite.
This is doing the kind of workthat grows with you, that
doesn't throw up a big roadblockin your plans to continue
writing that next book.
These are the kind of thingsthat just feed into everything
you're doing and the momentumbuilds organically.
And this is about, you know, wetalk about reader relationships.
(33:33):
That's very important.
Really, a lot of the sustainablestuff really does come down to
the effort you're putting intoyour brand and then also what
you're putting into, like Pennysaid, your foundation, you know,
because we talk about it a lot,but I really think it's it's one
of the most important thingsthat gets overlooked is doing
things in the right order.
(33:54):
And there's so much time andenergy and money you can waste
on marketing if your foundationisn't set up properly.
And by that we mean your Amazonretail page.
Everything that is static, thatis there for people to judge you
on needs to be top-notch.
You know what I mean?
Because you can't control whenpeople will land on your book
(34:15):
page.
So you need to make sure that itis ready to convert when they
get there.
And building from that makes alot more sense.
And sustainable marketing comesfrom that solid foundation.
And what's great about that isthat you control it.
You are in charge of how greatyour retail page looks, how much
energy you've put into a reallygreat description, filling out
(34:36):
all that author-central contentthat also helps convert readers,
creating A plus content, allthose things, that's not an
algorithm telling you what todo.
That's not a trend.
That is just good business,right?
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
And I think that when you, and you know, a lot of
times, again, because the flashystuff is really fun and we all
want to chase the new thingbecause we feel the pressure to
do so, right?
We feel like if I don't chaseit, I'm gonna get left behind.
And then I'm not gonna sellbooks and the pressure to sell
books and the competition.
Like I get that, I get the wholelike hamster wheel that we're
(35:11):
kind of all on.
But the foundational pieces, solike the, you know, like your
newsletter, your website, as Amymentioned, your Amazon retail
page, those are things that youcan control, right?
So and they're not other, Imean, I realize Amazon is an
algorithm that we've done wholeshows on that.
But these are pieces that youcan control.
(35:34):
They're not necessarily part ofa trend cycle, which may be big
now and not so big in sixmonths.
Um, because social mediaplatforms and trends, they do
come and go, and they areimportant to pay attention to,
certainly.
But if you haven't spent enoughtime focusing on your reader
relationships, you know, yournewsletter, your brand, those
(35:56):
are the assets that you own, andthose are the things that can
really that can pay off way morein the long run.
And let me give you an example.
And I've cited this author, sothis is not a news story, but
I've cited this author before inother podcasts that we've done.
There was an author, and shereally she was traditionally
published, she wrote uhromanticy.
So a mixture of if you're notfamiliar with the genre, it's
(36:17):
fiction, it's uh romance andfiction and uh fantasy.
And she had built her uhnewsletter and her reader
relationships and all thethings, and she's like, you know
what?
I'm gonna publish this nextbook.
I'm gonna independently publish.
She put in she put a call out toher fan base via her newsletter,
(36:37):
and within 48 hours, her booklaunched, it had eight, 4,000,
excuse me, 4,000 ratings andreviews.
Right.
Focusing on readerrelationships, and again, we've
done whole shows on this,focusing on reader
relationships, focusing on thethings that are really
sustainable, um will pay off foryou in ways that we we that Amy
(37:03):
and I can't even express.
And I think we have expressedactually well in in prior in
prior podcasts that we've done.
SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
Right.
And I think again, it comes backto I love that the focus of
sustainability is what you can'tcontrol.
You know what I mean?
Like pitching to national mediais sketchy as hell.
Yeah.
Like again, there's a time and aplace and a reason to go after
it and shoot your shot.
(37:30):
Like I totally get it, but it isyou can't control the response
for a laundry list of reasonsthat we won't go into here.
But focusing on what you cancontrol is so much more
sustainable.
And we've done shows on local,anything local libraries, local
events, local retail.
These are all really importantthings because you actually have
(37:52):
your hands in that.
And you control the momentum,you can control the contact, you
can walk right into thatbookstore and chat with the
owner or the manager.
Those are the kind of thingsthat are much more sustainable
because you actually have yourhands in it.
And there aren't these millionother factors involved
completely out of your controlthat determine whether or not
it's worth your time, you know?
(38:14):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
No, I I completely agree with that.
And I think that, you know,connection with readers,
connection with local.
We did a whole show on local,right?
Yep.
Um, connection with localbookstores, festivals coming up,
things like that.
I mean, those are the those arethe connections.
And then, you know, obviously,connections with any
relationships that you've builtor that you are working to build
(38:41):
with bloggers and influencersand things like that.
Like one of the things that I ama huge fan of is I'm a huge fan
of like thank you notes andacknowledgements and things like
that.
Like that's always been kind ofpart of my DNA.
When you think about so we talka lot about relationships with
readers, but when was the lasttime that you thanked, and you
(39:01):
know, I'm sure you said a thankyou, like you got an email from
somebody and they said thank youfor, you know, you said thank
you so much for your review, etcetera.
When was the last time that yousent like thank you notes to um,
you know, industry people whohave helped you or influencers
who, you know, those kinds ofthings.
You don't have to send everybodylike gift baskets and go crazy
(39:22):
or whatever.
I mean, if you want to, that'sawesome.
And if you have swag, that'seven better.
Like that's really fun.
Those are really importantrelationships.
And sometimes when we get socaught up in, I must do all
these 50 things today, we forgetabout fostering those and
nurturing those because theseare relationships that are gonna
carry with you're gonna carrywith you throughout your entire
(39:43):
writer career.
I mean, Amy, yes, don't youagree?
SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
Oh, absolutely.
And I and again, the idea ofcreating real relationships with
these people instead oftransactional, you know,
relationships.
Yes, it's so important becauseif you get a feature or a review
from a blogger or an influencer,100% stay in touch with them,
say your thank yous, becauseabsolutely that gives you the
(40:10):
opportunity to when you releaseyour next book, you can offer it
to them again.
And you can also gently, youknow, kind of say, or if you
have a friend or a colleaguethat you think would also, you
know, enjoy it, I'd love to sendthem a copy too if you want to
let them know.
You know what I mean?
That kind of networking isreally important, but you can't
just say that to anybody.
You have to say that to thepeople that you've actually put
(40:32):
the time and effort into gettingto know a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (40:34):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I think that, you know, umbuilding reader relationships,
we don't have to, you know, keepbecause we know we've talked
about that a lot in the show andwe've done other shows on that.
Super important.
Owning your platform.
A lot of authors that not a lot,but enough that it's worth
(40:56):
mentioning, that come our waydon't have a website, right?
Focus on the things that stopputting all of your eggs in, you
know, a social media basket thatmay or may not help you, or may
or may not even be there, or whoknows what, right?
Social platforms are borrowedspaces, right?
I used to refer to them as likecrop sharing, like years ago.
(41:16):
People did crop sharing and thething, the lamb goes away, and
then there goes all the things,right?
Social media is kind of the sameway.
Focusing on the sustainablehabits, your website, your
author page, your author retailpage.
Um, and then, you know, I think,Amy, I think it's fair to say,
you know, to do an audit likeonce a quarter in the coming
(41:39):
year, just set some time asideand figure out like, is
everything that I'm doing stillaligned with my goals?
And do I have the time to addsomething to my plate in terms
of, you know, new trends thatmay be happening and things like
that?
I mean, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Yes, I love the idea of doing an audit.
And I love that you mentionedthat the things that basically
the most sustainable sustainableefforts or things that you can
have associated with your brandare the ones that are working
for you 24-7.
You know, like your website'sdoing that, your retail page is
(42:16):
doing that.
You know what I mean?
What you put out there into theworld is doing that.
And yes, there is a time and aplace for taking a chance and on
marketing efforts that are alittle bit riskier, because
obviously that's also part ofexpanding.
But you really want to make surethat everything that is working
(42:37):
for you 24-7, that people canaccess and read and reference
and learn about you wheneverthey want to is top-notch.
And I can't emphasize enough howmuch easier the marketing gets
when you have all of those inplace because then the people
that find you through othermeans completely out of your
(42:58):
control, they're seeing a greatwebsite.
And I don't mean expensive, Ijust mean clean, up to date.
You know what I mean?
Matches, matches the tone, thegenre, the topic.
You know, they get to they findyour book on Amazon and your
description's excellent.
You know, you've filled in yourauthor central content, you've
got A plus content up there.
Your bio really makes sense forwho you're trying to reach.
(43:20):
Those are the kind of thingsthat are literally working for
you nonstop, even when you'resleeping, even when you're
focused on writing your nextbook.
So when authors skip those, itit's just baffling to me.
You know what I mean?
And especially when they skipthose and then instead are
spending their time, you know,like we talked about at the
beginning of the show, kind ofspray and pray and doing all the
(43:41):
things to check it off the listbecause that's what you're
supposed to be doing and that'swhat marketing is.
That's really not what goodmarketing and branding is.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
No, it's not.
And I think that I think thatyou can, I think that once you
have kind of dipped into thislittle mini self-audit, um,
asking yourself, you know, howsustainable is your marketing?
Then you can start to layer ontrends, as I said, you know, if
you feel like your readeractually spends time there.
Because again, remember, it'snot so much about hopping on the
(44:10):
next big fancy, shiny trend, butit really has to matter to your
reader.
At the end of the day, that'sthe only thing that matters,
right?
Is your reader there?
Is your reader on TikTok?
Is your reader on threads orwhatever?
You know what I mean?
Um, and then decide what, youknow, and just be willing to say
no to, and that's something thathas been really hard for me,
(44:33):
because as Amy well knows, likeI want to do all the things all
the time.
It's really hard for me to sayno, but at some point you cut,
you have to just be, you know, Imean, it if it's gonna waste
your time, it's not gonna impactyour book.
And then, you know, six monthsdown the road, your book's still
sitting on on Amazon with not asingle review because
unfortunately you've beenfocused on the wrong thing.
(44:55):
Yes, exactly.
You know, so we hope that this,I know this episode was sort of
a combination of all of ourideas and all the things, but we
really hope that this episodehas been helpful for you.
And again, we love yourfeedback.
Um, fill out the really coolsurvey that Amy designed because
we really would love to start toshape our shows in 2026 to um
(45:17):
what you want and what you wantto hear more of and what you
want to hear less of.
And please don't say that youwant to hear less of me because
then I'll just cry.
Um But we so appreciate you.
We hope that you have a reallygood, we have some really cool
stuff coming up in December.
So stick around uh through ouruh then the as we close out our
(45:38):
fifth year, we're gonna startour sixth year in uh in the new
year.
Don't forget to text podcast to888 402 8940.
And if you have not yet done so,please subscribe to the show so
that you get notified.
Every Friday we are in your feedand we would love a review
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks so much.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sanseveri and AmyCornell.
And we're really excited for theshow.
I know we say that all the time,but we're really excited for the
show.
The show is kind of a blend oftwo ideas that Amy and I have
been talking about, uh two areasthat authors really struggle.
(00:24):
So we hope that if this is you,uh I think we've actually all
struggled with this, that youwill really enjoy the show.
But first, we're we're soexcited.
So we're sitting in the greenroom and we so a couple of
things.
First, we have a listener surveyand we're really trying to shape
the shows for 2020, 2026.
So we would love to get yourfeedback on the show.
(00:48):
And I'll tell you something.
If you fill out the form or ifyou've already filled out the
form, and of course it'sanonymous, so it's not gonna,
you know, I'm not asking you tosend your confirmation of what
you what you said or thecomments that you put or
anything like that.
But if you forward to me, if yousend me, send us an email and
let us know that you filled outthe form, we'll send you some
cool swag.
(01:09):
Uh just as a maybe it's a bribe,call it a bribe, whatever.
It's also kind of a bribebecause we just win the green
room.
We went into some of theresponses that we've gotten.
And one of the listeners said,would love to hear more of Amy's
point of view.
And I'm like, okay, so I'm what?
Just nothing.
Like apparently more listenerswant to hear from you, Amy.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
And I um my initial reaction was they, it's probably
somebody who thinks, like,there's some commentary bubbling
under the surface here that theyneed to grab their popkin
popcorn for.
And they're probably like, maybewe should let her talk more
because she'll probably put herfoot in her mouth or something
and we'll get a good laugh outof it.
That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
And you know, I can tell you right now, there's with
Amy, I've been working with herfor over 14 years, there's
always something bubbling underthe surface.
So you are not wrong.
Uh, but yeah, I let's hope thatnobody gets on the survey and
just like, oh, Penny needs toshut up.
Um, I don't like less that pennyperson that'll just be the Amy
show in 2026.
But we appreciate.
(02:13):
So if you fill out the filledform, just shoot us an email,
let us know.
We really appreciate this.
You are the reason that we dothese shows.
We want you to shake the shows.
And, you know, by doing so,we'll hopefully make uh populate
the calendar with more ideasthat are really going to help to
drive your success.
The other thing that I wanted toremind you all is text the word
(02:34):
podcast to 888-402-8940.
You can talk to us directly.
We've gotten some responses.
I am like shocked at how manypeople love communicating with
us in podcast forum, in in, I'msorry, in text um about the
podcast.
It's really, really cool.
It's been a really cool surprisethat y'all are so vocal about
(02:58):
shows and questions and ideasand things like that.
So keep them coming.
Um, and and that's part of thereason why we wanted to do this
topic today, because I reallyfeel, and Amy feels the same
way.
There is uh sometimes it'sreally hard to keep going.
And we get that, and we hearthat a lot from authors.
(03:19):
So burnout, which is the firstpiece of this conversation, is
something that I mean, a lot ofauthors really face.
And it's, you know, you sitthere and you're just like, oh,
like, you know, the whole model,like, nothing is working.
I feel like I'm just throwing abunch of stuff up against the
wall and I don't really know.
I mean, Amy, you and I both hearthis, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Oh, yeah.
And I think it especially itstays front and center for me,
especially communicating with alot of our clients every day,
because so much of what we doalso comes with the option to
learn the next steps, take it tothe next level if they want to.
Not every client wants to dothat, but a lot of them do.
(04:03):
A lot of people work with usbecause they do want to learn
and they want to become moresavvy and they want to do their
next book release better.
You know what I mean?
But so with that, I mean, it'slike drinking from the fire hose
sometimes, you know, especiallyand it it comes with a mix of
both excitement, but also like,where do I start and what do I
(04:27):
focus on?
And trying to juggle all thethings when in reality that's
really not ever what weencourage anybody to do.
Don't try to do all the thingsat once, you know, just to check
it off your list.
We you guys probably anybodythat's listened for a while
hears us say that all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
Well, but I mean, we're always, I mean, authors
are told, and I see this at whenI speak at writers' conferences
too.
Authors are, you know, talkabout drinking from a fire hose.
I mean, I see authors coming outof conferences, and I and I
think conferences are reallyimportant.
So I just want to say, let'sjust kind of reframe that.
I think conferences, conferencesare really important, but you
(05:04):
know, authors come away fromevents or online classes that
they take or whatever, like Ihave to do it all, right?
I have to like, we have to postads, we have to, we have to run
ads, we have to post on socialmedia, we have to build our
email list, we have to do a booktour, we have to do a podcast
tour, then we have to launchanother book.
And it's like, wow, like nowonder that everybody just feels
(05:28):
a little deer in headlights.
And it's kind of, I think, oneof the reasons why, you know,
now, of course, day afterThanksgiving.
By the way, we hope you all hada really great and awesome and
amazing Thanksgiving.
But I think this is kind of theseason where we, and this is
part of the reason for thetiming of the show too, is, you
know, we are we're kind ofsitting back and we're
reevaluating and we're lookingat how far we've come this year,
(05:51):
or in some cases, that we feellike we haven't come far enough.
And I think that a lot of theburnout isn't necessarily coming
from the marketing itself.
Although, you know, you and Ihad a conversation in the green
room just about authors doingthings that they've literally
never done before in their life,or like we're in Amazon ads or
(06:12):
something like that.
So there's that part of it.
But it also comes, in myopinion, and this we'll dig into
more in the second half of theshow, is unsustainable strategy
stacking.
Like stacking strategies one ontop of the other that just
aren't sustainable to do, right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Right.
And without a consistent plan.
Also, yes.
I think for most people, even ifyou're not a huge planner, you
know, which I guess I I probablyconsider myself not that, I'm
very much like, okay, I canhandle 48 hours at a time most
usually in all areas of my life.
But even then, having somethingconsistent that you can count on
(06:53):
that you know is solid and thatyou've spent a little time
setting aside and planning outand confirming these are the
right things, the confidencethat you get from that makes
such a big difference comparedto frantically trying to just do
all the things to say thatthey've been completed.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Yeah, that's that's absolutely true.
And you just, you know, itbecomes checking off a list as
opposed to is this reallysomething that's gonna matter to
my readers?
And that's where kind ofstepping back and re-evaluating
sort of helps with that.
And I see this a lot with when Iwhen I teach on doing Amazon,
(07:33):
you know, Amazon ads, right?
So, you know, a lot of timesauthors will get into Amazon ads
and then they feel uncomfortabledoing like they again, this is
where the learning curve, likethey they feel like they have
such a learning curve, and I I II'm uncertain as to whether or
not, you know, I did it right orsomething.
And so, you know, checking oncea week becomes checking every
(07:58):
hour, which is not sustainableeither, because it just you
can't get any good data thatway.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Right.
Um absolutely anything thatyou're refreshing constantly it
turns into busy work that is notproductive.
SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Right, exactly.
And you know, your your um uhyour sales rank on Amazon, this
is another place that authorsare like, um, I'm just gonna
refresh this all the time.
I'm gonna, you know, the Amazonsales rank is wonky at best.
And it's, you know, it'saffected by a whole bunch of
other things that have little tonothing to do with the fact that
(08:40):
you just posted something onsocial media, right?
Or that you're running an ebookpromo or something.
So those kinds of kind of manicchecking is also something that
I think really gets to the toburn out.
Amy, you want to talk about sobecause this is one of our
particular pet peeves too.
It's the social media overload.
And it's easy to get into,believe me, it's really easy to
(09:03):
get caught up in it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, talk about a rabbithole, right?
I was gonna say the same thingwith ads, because once you start
looking at things and you'relike, well, why is this?
Why is that?
And you know, there's adifference.
Let's be very clear.
There's a difference betweendoing self-education and going
down a rabbit hole.
They are not the same.
And so the social mediaoverload, you know, feeling
pressure to post daily, spendingmore time creative, creating
(09:27):
content than you are writing,because, you know, again, this
is about sustainability.
What makes more sense for youlong term?
Posting on Instagram every day,or spending that time working on
your next book?
You know, let's let's berealistic about what's really
going to feed your brand longterm.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
You know, here's a secret nobody else pays
attention to us as much as wepay attention to our own work.
We get into traps like that too,Penny, right?
Where uh even with ournewsletter and the timing and
when it went out, we used to beso much more rigid about this
day and this time and at thishour and all that kind of stuff.
And then we realized nobody elseis tracking that closely.
You know, we were, and so it wassomething we were obsessing
(10:08):
about when at the end of theday, it's like, you know what?
It's better to send it out whenwe have the good content that we
really wanted to focus on readyto go.
Right.
Yeah.
And that made such a bigdifference.
And another one is obviouslycomparing your engagement
numbers to others.
You know, if you're looking foran author and they've got, you
know, 3,000 followers alreadyand you're thinking, oh my gosh,
I have 150 followers, what am Ieven doing here?
(10:31):
You know, it's yeah, it makes,you know, but we talk about all
the time quality over quantity,numbers can be very deceiving
across the board, but especiallyon social media.
So for what it's worth, if youare, if you do want to do some
like market research and seewhat other authors are up to,
check their engagement, youknow, check the likes, check the
comments, even like be a littlesneaky and click through on some
(10:54):
of the accounts that arefollowing them a lot.
Just make sure they look likereal people.
Again, I just got done sayingdon't go down the rabbit hole,
but candidly, if this is reallysomething that you are hung up
on, then doing some of thosechecks and kind of get like
resetting what your parametersare for success on social media
really makes a big difference.
You know?
Yeah.
Like, what are you here for?
(11:15):
And we talk about this a lot.
Don't be everywhere, beeverywhere that matters.
Typically, for most people,being on one primary social
media account is all you need todo.
It just really is based on yourdemographics.
And we've done plenty of showsabout knowing who your readers
are.
That work is so important.
Like, don't skip over that.
It it really does connect toevery single thing that you do
(11:37):
marketing-wise, knowing the insand outs of your readers, not
just the kind of books that theylike to read, but also their
lifestyle, what other contentthey're looking for, what
intrigues them.
You know what I mean?
Like if you are looking to builda brand, your brand can't just
be to sell your book.
You know, your brand has to bebigger than that.
And I'm a huge fan of using ascheduling app or an app that,
(12:00):
you know, you can do a bunch ofcontent at once and then set it
up to post for you.
Those are brilliant.
And even if you have to pay alittle bit, if social media is
really something that isimportant to you, or if we're
being realistic, is somethingthat is pretty critical based on
who your reader market is,because that might be something
too, whether you like socialmedia or not, you might have to
(12:21):
come to terms with the factthat, like, well, my demographic
is on social media a lot.
You know, they're probablylooking for me on there.
You know, once they finish mybook, they want to see my
Instagram account or whatever.
So that might mean that's whereyou need to be.
Schedule content, you know, setit and forget it.
I love the idea of setting asidea couple hours at the beginning
of each month and jamming outyour content for the month.
(12:43):
And then if something fun comesup, you snap a picture, great,
post it, whatever.
But then you know you've takencare of business, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I think that, and you know, theinteresting thing though, too,
is that social media we've done.
I actually just taught a classon Saturday about how deceptive
social media can be and how itfeels productive, but it really,
and sometimes it is productive.
Like I don't want to sit hereand just like, oh, Penny and Amy
are just slamming on socialmedia.
(13:12):
Sometimes it is productive,certainly, but social media
doesn't sell books.
Social media is a great way foryou to increase your visible
your broader visibility,certainly, but it doesn't
necessarily mean that you haveto do it on every single
platform, right?
So find the platform that reallyresonates.
(13:34):
We talk about this a lot.
Success leaves clues, right?
So find other similar authorsand start to follow them and see
where they're getting a reallygood vibe, like where they where
they are spending the majorityof their time and let that
inspire, don't copy, but letthat inspire your your choices.
So if you feel like you're justgonna complete overload, I love
(13:56):
the schedule and we do it.
So I will jam out posts for anentire month and um just get
them posted and just yeah, kindof set it and forget it, right?
In a way.
But you're better off being inone place and being and staying
(14:17):
super engaged in that oneplatform than trying to be on,
you know, on all of the things,because that's just not that's
absolutely not sustainable.
Um so newsletter burnout.
Now, newsletters, we've doneshows on newsletters,
newsletters, we're a huge fan ofthat.
Um but I think that authors whoare hyper focused on I must
(14:41):
build my list, I must add morepeople to my newsletter, I must
grow my numbers, are lessfocused on the content.
And Amy talked about thisearlier.
So our newsletter, like we wereso like, oh, we've got to get
this out a particular day.
Consistency is really, reallyimportant, right?
(15:02):
You want to be successful inanything.
People ask me that all the time.
Like, how have you, how has yourcompany lasted 25 years?
I mean, first off, we do greatwork, but we're also consistent
about everything that we do.
That said, you also have toweave in a little bit of
flexibility and you have toremember that everything that
you're doing is re has to bereader-facing.
So it's less about you stayingon your schedule as it is about
(15:26):
growing that connection withyour readers.
Because when you grow thatconnection with your reader, the
build your list will happenbecause readers will share.
Like, this is a greatnewsletter.
Your time is better spentcreating content that your
readers are really gonna loveand then repurposing that
(15:46):
content, right?
So um something, and it's takenus a long time really to get
here with our newsletter becausewe serve, yes, we serve authors,
but we serve authors who are inall different stages of writing
their book or putting their bookout there or the number of books
that they have out.
So we're, you know, much likewhen we create the podcast, a
(16:09):
lot of times we're meetingpeople at very different places
in their author career.
So what we, you know, what Ialways recommend to authors and
what Amy and I have kind of comeup with with our newsletter is
evergreen templates.
So we have evergreen pocketswithin the newsletter that we
fill.
And for you, that might be awriting update or books I'm
(16:29):
reading or highlighting a readeror something like that.
Creating some kind of a mastertemplate for your newsletter so
that you're not sitting thereevery month saying, What am I
gonna write about?
Right.
It's a much better way to stayon track with your newsletter as
(16:51):
opposed to, I'm not getting any,why am I not getting any
signups?
What's happening with my, Imean, signups are really
important.
And we have done whole shows on,in fact, I think if you go to
the newsletter show, you'll beable to hear it on how to grow
your newsletter list.
But figuring out how to, youknow, creating an actual
template for your newsletter anddifferent, you know, different
(17:11):
elements that you can even, youknow, you don't have to have,
you know, reader spotlight inevery single newsletter.
But, you know, I mean, if you'redoing a newsletter once a month,
and honestly, by the way, forthose of you sending your
newsletter out once a week, Godbless you.
I know Amy, sorry, Amy just likethrew up in the theory of the
recording.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
But short list of things I do every weekend,
honestly.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
But, you know, I mean, does do you really have I
mean, is to me, the content ismuch more important than the
frequency.
And honestly, we get so muchstuff in our inboxes.
It's in, it's, it's, it's, it'sinsane.
And half of it, I mean, I don'tknow about y'all.
I'm assuming that everybody isfacing the same thing.
(17:53):
But, you know, I got I got somenotice today for like, oh,
you've been a you're gonna getsome kind of award and blah,
blah, blah.
It's super exciting.
And it was like award for likescience fiction book of the
year.
Oh, congratulations.
Thanks.
I because it felt superappropriate.
It's right up there with theOprah book club that I got a
couple months ago.
(18:15):
Um you're much better offfocused on less, you know,
reader connection thanfrequency.
So if you have my permission,unless you're getting great open
rates setting it out every week,then God love you.
And then we would like to haveyou on so you could do a show
about what your secret is tothat.
But exactly once a month,honestly.
(18:36):
I would, you know, less isreally more.
Right.
Uh, you know, especially if youhave really, really good
content, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:45):
And I think when people say I don't know what to
write about, they're kind of,and this is not a knock, but
they're kind of missing thepoint of a newsletter.
And we need to reframe thepurpose of the newsletter, how
it serves your recipients, howit serves you, because really if
you get the right frame of mindfor what it's for, there really
shouldn't be a lot of this, Idon't know what to say.
(19:07):
And I love your I yourrecommendation of, you know,
figuring out these are thedifferent things I'm going to
rotate through that I can that Iget excited to talk about, that
I can talk about, that isconsistent in my life, that's
consistent in my author journey.
And then you don't hit thoseroadblocks where you're like, I
have nothing to say.
Because yeah, again, if you'reif you're getting to that point,
(19:28):
then you're not using yournewsletter in the right way or
for the right reasons.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
Well, but the other reason that you should, and this
is the same thing like when I,when I was talking about my,
when I was teaching that classon um, you know, social the
social media class on Saturday,the more that you can identify
the tracks that you want tospeak to, whether that's in
social media or in yournewsletter or writing blog posts
or doing podcasts, whatever thatis, the more that you can
(19:54):
identify those those quoteunquote tracks or templates,
right, that you're gonna, thatyou're gonna address, the more
that this, the more that ideaswill jump out at you.
But if you're approaching yournewsletter with every month
you're like, oh my gosh, what amI gonna say?
Like you just said, right?
What am I gonna do?
What am I gonna say?
Yeah, no wonder you're burnt outbecause who has that time to be
(20:16):
that creative?
Like you're reinventing thewheel every single month.
So stuff will start to jump outat you, like, oh, I could talk
about this next month, or Icould talk about that.
And this is something that I canlike save.
And Amy and I do this with thepodcast too, because sometimes
we get like idea bunnies thatjust multiply and they end up
filling our offices.
But then, you know, we kind ofbreak it down.
(20:37):
We're just like, oh, we shouldjust do this, you know, and and
these ideas will start to kindof pop into your mind, and the
new it becomes it just becomesso much easier.
SPEAKER_00 (20:49):
You know, exactly.
Um, so next next one.
No, I love this.
The spray and pray mistake foryou know, this is pitching, PR
outreach, getting a hold ofmedia, wanting to get coverage,
you know, and this happens, theburnout starts to happen when
you are just churning these out.
You know, you're just you yougot your list, you're hammering
(21:10):
them out.
It's more about getting it donethan it is about, again, I, you
know, I know I said it when itcame to the newsletter, but you
really have to understand thepurpose of what you're doing,
but then you really have to alsoput yourself in the position of
the recipient.
What are they looking for?
What's going to catch theirattention?
What's going to set you apart?
And also, Penny, I think it'sequally as important to think
(21:32):
about they get dozens, sometimeshundreds of these a week, right?
So how can you stand out and berespect but while also being
respectful of their time?
How can you make that yessomething easy for them?
Because when you go about doinganything with the right frame of
mind and really understandingthe goals, both for you for
(21:53):
yourself and the and therecipient, things get a lot more
structured, which then leads tothings getting a lot simpler and
easier to manage.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
You know, and when you just hammer out a bunch of
pitches and they're notcustomized and they're not
personalized and you haven'tdone your research, you're
realistically, you know, I'mjust gonna say it, you're
probably going to get a lot moreno's andor complete silence,
which is devastating.
Yeah, exactly.
Like we don't put time into thiswith the like, you know,
(22:22):
assuming we're going to get no'sacross the board.
Like obviously, we put our timeand energy in the marketing for
a positive response, no matterwhat it is.
But it's just this is one ofthose things where quality over
quantity is going to serve youin the long term.
So you're much better offspending your time personalizing
five or six pitches to the exactright people that you know are
(22:46):
interested in the kind ofcontent that you write, whether
it's genre fiction ornonfiction.
You know, just the moreconfident you are in your
choices and how you approachthem, the better response rate
you'll get, which means youdon't have to just hammer out
dozens and dozens and dozens ofthese hoping that something just
sticks.
(23:06):
You know, so you definitely youdon't want to confuse volume
with impact.
You know, you can have a lotmore impact with less work if
done the right way.
And that's what we'd reallyencourage everybody listening to
focus on.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Well, I I completely agree with that.
And I also think that there is apressure to, there's a pressure
to do, because you and I'vedone, I mean, cumulatively we've
done well over 35 years worth ofPR, right?
Given our time working together.
Yeah.
So we've seen a lot of authorsfeel very desperate to get
(23:44):
attention.
And I understand that.
I understand the desperation toget somebody to notice this book
that you have worked so veryhard on.
But here's the thing (23:53):
here's the deal is that if you are, if
you're just like Amy was saying,spray and pray, you just throw a
whole bunch of stuff up againstthe wall and you hope that some
of it sticks, the majority of itis not going to stick because
you're pitching out of sort ofdesperation rather than pitching
doing something that's reallyquality.
(24:15):
And very likely when authorsthat, you know, Amy and I have
worked with who come to us afterhaving done a lot of pitching on
their own and not gotten a lotof results, a lot of times like
they're pitching the wrongpeople, right?
So I want my memoir on the TodayShow, for example, and we've
done whole shows on this so wedon't have to go too far down
the rabbit hole.
Is there really an alignment?
So you may have a staggeringstory that everybody should
(24:38):
read, and I get it, but is thisreally something that a national
media outlet is going tofeature?
And the answer is maybe verylikely no.
But there's maybe an there ispotentially another more
productive way for you toapproach the pitching for your
book, whether that's nationalmedia or podcasts or reviewers
or bloggers, whatever that is.
(24:59):
It is going to feel so much moreproductive for you to feel to be
selective in your choices,personalized in your pitch, and
you know, focused in terms ofhow much you can actively do
every week than it is just tosay, because this is where, so
this is kind of the birth ofwhere a lot of uh uh hybrid
(25:24):
publishers and indie publisherswill sell these press release
packages, right?
So they sell these press releasepackages and they used to be a
lot of money, like I don't knowhow much they cost now.
Basically, they write a pressrelease, which that's first
wrong.
I love to get my use my littlesound effect.
That's the first wrong answer,right?
Because there is a bookpublished every eight seconds.
So writing a press release for abook is not my favorite use of
(25:48):
your time, right?
Or your money if you're havingsomebody else do it.
So you're writing a pressrelease, they're writing a press
release of the book, and thenthey're sending it out to like
5,000 media people across thecountry, and that's another
wrong answer.
I've seen lists that come fromthose.
So basically what they do isthey they just grab a whole
bunch of media and they spityour press release out to them.
(26:12):
I've seen romance novels go outto, I've seen that these pitch
lists and some they go out tolike Car and Driver or Birds and
Blooms.
You know, I mean, they'rethey're uh the overreach is not
gonna help you.
In fact, uh it's just it's acomplete waste of and they're
(26:33):
expensive.
Like I saw one of them was like$1,700.
I'm like, whoa, I could bespending that money on something
so much more productive.
So that's that's something justsomething to think about.
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
Yes, and Penny, you always talk about everything is
your resume.
So you really want to questionalso like, do I want my name
going out to places that arewildly inappropriate for my
book?
You know?
Yeah.
It's like you don't necessarilywant that to be.
I mean, I realize the world ishuge, media is huge, but believe
(27:02):
it or not, it's actually notthat huge.
You know, people talk, peoplework for multiple outlets, you
know, especially when peoplefreelance, things like that.
You just never know, right?
And so that's another reason tobe thoughtful with your
pitching.
It's all about like that is yourbrand, that is your resume, that
is what you're putting out inthe world.
So, I mean, if anything, justknowing that you're putting high
(27:25):
quality communication out thereand to the right people says a
lot about who you are as anauthor.
And I promise it will get you alot farther than all these
nonsense connections that youknow what I mean.
Because Penny, you and I get youyou mentioned it recently just a
few minutes ago, you and I getreally nonsense stuff.
And what's your initialreaction?
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Oh, yeah.
It just, it's yeah, it's just acomplete waste of my time.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Like I'm always like, oh God,you know what I mean?
Or like when people write us andsay, dear sirs, it's like, oh
yeah.
You know, yeah, it's like, no,no, sirs here, but thank you.
You know, it's like I wouldnever that am like ever, ever,
ever respond to another emailfrom that person, even if they
finally figured it out, becauseI'm like, clearly, you do not
care enough about my time orwhat we actually do to bother
(28:13):
doing additional couple minutesof research.
And you know what's so funny?
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
You know what's so funny is I got invited to do
this online virtual event andthey they emailed me and they
sold it, like, oh my gosh, thisis huge, and we have 30,000
people drawn.
I'm like, wow, that's a bignumber.
Like, this is impressive.
And so I, you know, they said,well, you know, here's a
calendar link, you know, book a10-minute call.
We'll talk to you about theevent and everything like that.
(28:41):
Two days later, I got threeemails, separate emails from
them with the same exact, whichof course they're inviting a lot
of people, so I get it, right?
Um, with separate, so threeseparate emails over a few days.
One was to Randall, right?
So same thing, Mary Randall.
The other one was to, they wereall to guys, basically.
(29:03):
So maybe I don't know, theypeople think that I'm a dude.
So I don't know.
But um, and so I wrote them andI said, you know, not Randall,
not Jimmy, not whatever it was.
Oh yeah, we're just we're justsending this out to a lot of
people.
I'm like, okay, so what thattells me is that you're not
being selective.
Like, I'm not really as specialas you made me feel with the
(29:25):
initial email because you'rebasically saying, I mean, yeah,
okay, so just to be fair, like Iget it, like email systems can,
you know, glitch, and I get allthe things, but it's kind of
weird that it like sort ofhappened over a few days, and
all of a sudden all these weird,weird random emails just anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
I know, and it always infuriates me for whoever
hired these people to do thattoo, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
And you know, we live in an age where it's very
easy to not feel special.
Like, and this is not me goingall Tony Robbins on in his
podcast, but because we get somuch spam, we get so much crap,
we get so much dear sirs.
Emails.
I mean, we get all of thisstuff.
It's really easy to make thepeople feel like you're wasting
their time.
They're not special.
(30:06):
They're not important enough foryou to pay attention.
And I'll tell you something,cutting back on the time that
you're spending, that you'refeel like you're spinning your
wheels and taking, like, ifyou're like, I have to pitch
like 50 people this month orsomething, try to pitch five and
do it really thoughtfully.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
You know what I mean?
Um exactly.
Like you're so much more likelyto get a response if you show
those five people that you payattention to what they cover,
what they're interested in, someof their previous work.
And honestly, in in the longrun, you still end up spending
less time than you would havetrying to make this massive list
and shoot out template emails.
SPEAKER_01 (30:45):
For sure.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think that so, so on theheels of this is um uh the topic
of sustainable book marketing.
And I am such a fan of this, andI don't mean to sound like I'm
900 years old, but sometimes Ilook at like I look at all these
(31:08):
new trends like, oh, look atthis brand new, like, like there
was like, I don't know, that nowthere's some new social media
site like Blue Jay or Bluebirdor something like that.
I don't even know what it'scalled.
And threads, like threads reallywent nowhere, but everybody kind
of jumped.
I mean, I don't know, didthreads really go anywhere in
terms of a social media site?
Like I know Instagram is stillkind of trying to push it, but I
(31:28):
I I think it's really sort offallen flat.
There are so every year Amy andI see uh, you know, a new social
media trend, a new must-dothing, a new algorithm, a new
thing that authors feel likethey have to chase.
Right.
(31:49):
And I'm a huge look, if you havethe time, if you've learned all
of these things, if this show islike Penny and Amy are not
telling me anything that I don'tknow, awesome.
As I said, you come on the showin 2026 and you can teach a
class.
I think that's great.
Like, how did you do it?
But if you've mastered all thethings, then go chase that shiny
(32:09):
new object.
But if you haven't, like themajority of us, or we're still
kind of like trying to playcatch-up with all the things
that are already on our plate.
Um I really recommend that youtake a look at everything that
you're doing and find thefoundational pieces that you
really want to invest your timein in the new year and really
(32:33):
own those, right?
And I think, I mean, Amy, do youwant to talk a little bit about
what we mean by sustainablemarketing?
Because that's the these areactually the fun things.
And oddly enough, we've done aton of shows on all of these
topics, which is great.
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Right.
And this, I mean, sustainable,we all we already kind of know
what that means in everydaylife, but this is truly the kind
of marketing that actually growswith your brand instead of
distracting you from everythingelse that you need to be
focusing on.
So everything we covered in thefirst part of the episode where
we talked about all thoseburnout trigger moments with all
(33:12):
of like where we see ithappening most, this is the
exact opposite.
This is doing the kind of workthat grows with you, that
doesn't throw up a big roadblockin your plans to continue
writing that next book.
These are the kind of thingsthat just feed into everything
you're doing and the momentumbuilds organically.
And this is about, you know, wetalk about reader relationships.
(33:33):
That's very important.
Really, a lot of the sustainablestuff really does come down to
the effort you're putting intoyour brand and then also what
you're putting into, like Pennysaid, your foundation, you know,
because we talk about it a lot,but I really think it's it's one
of the most important thingsthat gets overlooked is doing
things in the right order.
(33:54):
And there's so much time andenergy and money you can waste
on marketing if your foundationisn't set up properly.
And by that we mean your Amazonretail page.
Everything that is static, thatis there for people to judge you
on needs to be top-notch.
You know what I mean?
Because you can't control whenpeople will land on your book
(34:15):
page.
So you need to make sure that itis ready to convert when they
get there.
And building from that makes alot more sense.
And sustainable marketing comesfrom that solid foundation.
And what's great about that isthat you control it.
You are in charge of how greatyour retail page looks, how much
energy you've put into a reallygreat description, filling out
(34:36):
all that author-central contentthat also helps convert readers,
creating A plus content, allthose things, that's not an
algorithm telling you what todo.
That's not a trend.
That is just good business,right?
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
And I think that when you, and you know, a lot of
times, again, because the flashystuff is really fun and we all
want to chase the new thingbecause we feel the pressure to
do so, right?
We feel like if I don't chaseit, I'm gonna get left behind.
And then I'm not gonna sellbooks and the pressure to sell
books and the competition.
Like I get that, I get the wholelike hamster wheel that we're
(35:11):
kind of all on.
But the foundational pieces, solike the, you know, like your
newsletter, your website, as Amymentioned, your Amazon retail
page, those are things that youcan control, right?
So and they're not other, Imean, I realize Amazon is an
algorithm that we've done wholeshows on that.
But these are pieces that youcan control.
(35:34):
They're not necessarily part ofa trend cycle, which may be big
now and not so big in sixmonths.
Um, because social mediaplatforms and trends, they do
come and go, and they areimportant to pay attention to,
certainly.
But if you haven't spent enoughtime focusing on your reader
relationships, you know, yournewsletter, your brand, those
(35:56):
are the assets that you own, andthose are the things that can
really that can pay off way morein the long run.
And let me give you an example.
And I've cited this author, sothis is not a news story, but
I've cited this author before inother podcasts that we've done.
There was an author, and shereally she was traditionally
published, she wrote uhromanticy.
So a mixture of if you're notfamiliar with the genre, it's
(36:17):
fiction, it's uh romance andfiction and uh fantasy.
And she had built her uhnewsletter and her reader
relationships and all thethings, and she's like, you know
what?
I'm gonna publish this nextbook.
I'm gonna independently publish.
She put in she put a call out toher fan base via her newsletter,
(36:37):
and within 48 hours, her booklaunched, it had eight, 4,000,
excuse me, 4,000 ratings andreviews.
Right.
Focusing on readerrelationships, and again, we've
done whole shows on this,focusing on reader
relationships, focusing on thethings that are really
sustainable, um will pay off foryou in ways that we we that Amy
(37:03):
and I can't even express.
And I think we have expressedactually well in in prior in
prior podcasts that we've done.
SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
Right.
And I think again, it comes backto I love that the focus of
sustainability is what you can'tcontrol.
You know what I mean?
Like pitching to national mediais sketchy as hell.
Yeah.
Like again, there's a time and aplace and a reason to go after
it and shoot your shot.
(37:30):
Like I totally get it, but it isyou can't control the response
for a laundry list of reasonsthat we won't go into here.
But focusing on what you cancontrol is so much more
sustainable.
And we've done shows on local,anything local libraries, local
events, local retail.
These are all really importantthings because you actually have
(37:52):
your hands in that.
And you control the momentum,you can control the contact, you
can walk right into thatbookstore and chat with the
owner or the manager.
Those are the kind of thingsthat are much more sustainable
because you actually have yourhands in it.
And there aren't these millionother factors involved
completely out of your controlthat determine whether or not
it's worth your time, you know?
(38:14):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
No, I I completely agree with that.
And I think that, you know,connection with readers,
connection with local.
We did a whole show on local,right?
Yep.
Um, connection with localbookstores, festivals coming up,
things like that.
I mean, those are the those arethe connections.
And then, you know, obviously,connections with any
relationships that you've builtor that you are working to build
(38:41):
with bloggers and influencersand things like that.
Like one of the things that I ama huge fan of is I'm a huge fan
of like thank you notes andacknowledgements and things like
that.
Like that's always been kind ofpart of my DNA.
When you think about so we talka lot about relationships with
readers, but when was the lasttime that you thanked, and you
(39:01):
know, I'm sure you said a thankyou, like you got an email from
somebody and they said thank youfor, you know, you said thank
you so much for your review, etcetera.
When was the last time that yousent like thank you notes to um,
you know, industry people whohave helped you or influencers
who, you know, those kinds ofthings.
You don't have to send everybodylike gift baskets and go crazy
(39:22):
or whatever.
I mean, if you want to, that'sawesome.
And if you have swag, that'seven better.
Like that's really fun.
Those are really importantrelationships.
And sometimes when we get socaught up in, I must do all
these 50 things today, we forgetabout fostering those and
nurturing those because theseare relationships that are gonna
carry with you're gonna carrywith you throughout your entire
(39:43):
writer career.
I mean, Amy, yes, don't youagree?
SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
Oh, absolutely.
And I and again, the idea ofcreating real relationships with
these people instead oftransactional, you know,
relationships.
Yes, it's so important becauseif you get a feature or a review
from a blogger or an influencer,100% stay in touch with them,
say your thank yous, becauseabsolutely that gives you the
(40:10):
opportunity to when you releaseyour next book, you can offer it
to them again.
And you can also gently, youknow, kind of say, or if you
have a friend or a colleaguethat you think would also, you
know, enjoy it, I'd love to sendthem a copy too if you want to
let them know.
You know what I mean?
That kind of networking isreally important, but you can't
just say that to anybody.
You have to say that to thepeople that you've actually put
(40:32):
the time and effort into gettingto know a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (40:34):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I think that, you know, umbuilding reader relationships,
we don't have to, you know, keepbecause we know we've talked
about that a lot in the show andwe've done other shows on that.
Super important.
Owning your platform.
A lot of authors that not a lot,but enough that it's worth
(40:56):
mentioning, that come our waydon't have a website, right?
Focus on the things that stopputting all of your eggs in, you
know, a social media basket thatmay or may not help you, or may
or may not even be there, or whoknows what, right?
Social platforms are borrowedspaces, right?
I used to refer to them as likecrop sharing, like years ago.
(41:16):
People did crop sharing and thething, the lamb goes away, and
then there goes all the things,right?
Social media is kind of the sameway.
Focusing on the sustainablehabits, your website, your
author page, your author retailpage.
Um, and then, you know, I think,Amy, I think it's fair to say,
you know, to do an audit likeonce a quarter in the coming
(41:39):
year, just set some time asideand figure out like, is
everything that I'm doing stillaligned with my goals?
And do I have the time to addsomething to my plate in terms
of, you know, new trends thatmay be happening and things like
that?
I mean, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Yes, I love the idea of doing an audit.
And I love that you mentionedthat the things that basically
the most sustainable sustainableefforts or things that you can
have associated with your brandare the ones that are working
for you 24-7.
You know, like your website'sdoing that, your retail page is
(42:16):
doing that.
You know what I mean?
What you put out there into theworld is doing that.
And yes, there is a time and aplace for taking a chance and on
marketing efforts that are alittle bit riskier, because
obviously that's also part ofexpanding.
But you really want to make surethat everything that is working
(42:37):
for you 24-7, that people canaccess and read and reference
and learn about you wheneverthey want to is top-notch.
And I can't emphasize enough howmuch easier the marketing gets
when you have all of those inplace because then the people
that find you through othermeans completely out of your
(42:58):
control, they're seeing a greatwebsite.
And I don't mean expensive, Ijust mean clean, up to date.
You know what I mean?
Matches, matches the tone, thegenre, the topic.
You know, they get to they findyour book on Amazon and your
description's excellent.
You know, you've filled in yourauthor central content, you've
got A plus content up there.
Your bio really makes sense forwho you're trying to reach.
(43:20):
Those are the kind of thingsthat are literally working for
you nonstop, even when you'resleeping, even when you're
focused on writing your nextbook.
So when authors skip those, itit's just baffling to me.
You know what I mean?
And especially when they skipthose and then instead are
spending their time, you know,like we talked about at the
beginning of the show, kind ofspray and pray and doing all the
(43:41):
things to check it off the listbecause that's what you're
supposed to be doing and that'swhat marketing is.
That's really not what goodmarketing and branding is.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
No, it's not.
And I think that I think thatyou can, I think that once you
have kind of dipped into thislittle mini self-audit, um,
asking yourself, you know, howsustainable is your marketing?
Then you can start to layer ontrends, as I said, you know, if
you feel like your readeractually spends time there.
Because again, remember, it'snot so much about hopping on the
(44:10):
next big fancy, shiny trend, butit really has to matter to your
reader.
At the end of the day, that'sthe only thing that matters,
right?
Is your reader there?
Is your reader on TikTok?
Is your reader on threads orwhatever?
You know what I mean?
Um, and then decide what, youknow, and just be willing to say
no to, and that's something thathas been really hard for me,
(44:33):
because as Amy well knows, likeI want to do all the things all
the time.
It's really hard for me to sayno, but at some point you cut,
you have to just be, you know, Imean, it if it's gonna waste
your time, it's not gonna impactyour book.
And then, you know, six monthsdown the road, your book's still
sitting on on Amazon with not asingle review because
unfortunately you've beenfocused on the wrong thing.
(44:55):
Yes, exactly.
You know, so we hope that this,I know this episode was sort of
a combination of all of ourideas and all the things, but we
really hope that this episodehas been helpful for you.
And again, we love yourfeedback.
Um, fill out the really coolsurvey that Amy designed because
we really would love to start toshape our shows in 2026 to um
(45:17):
what you want and what you wantto hear more of and what you
want to hear less of.
And please don't say that youwant to hear less of me because
then I'll just cry.
Um But we so appreciate you.
We hope that you have a reallygood, we have some really cool
stuff coming up in December.
So stick around uh through ouruh then the as we close out our
(45:38):
fifth year, we're gonna startour sixth year in uh in the new
year.
Don't forget to text podcast to888 402 8940.
And if you have not yet done so,please subscribe to the show so
that you get notified.
Every Friday we are in your feedand we would love a review
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks so much.
Bye bye.
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