April 25, 2025 • 44 mins
The elusive goal of media coverage keeps many authors awake at night, dreaming of that big break on national television or in major publications. But what if everything you thought about securing media attention was based on misconceptions?
In this eye-opening episode, we pull back the curtain on what really matters to media gatekeepers and why so many authors sabotage their chances before they even make their first pitch. The hard truth? Media outlets don't exist to promote your book—they exist to serve their audience. Your success hinges on how well you position yourself as valuable to that audience.
We reveal why local media opportunities might be your most powerful pathway to national attention, and why turning down "small" media appearances could be the biggest mistake in your marketing strategy. You'll learn how national scouts constantly monitor local channels for fresh voices and compelling stories, often making local coverage your best audition for bigger opportunities.
The episode offers practical guidance on crafting a pitch that resonates with producers, staying current in your knowledge base, building a professional online presence, and leveraging every media win to create momentum. We share real examples of authors who climbed the media ladder strategically, turning modest beginnings into significant visibility.
Whether you're just starting your publicity journey or have been frustrated by lack of media interest, this episode provides the framework to transform your approach. The path to media coverage isn't about lucky breaks—it's about strategic positioning, consistent effort, and understanding the media landscape from the inside out.
Ready to position yourself as the expert that media outlets actually want to feature? Listen now and discover how to build the platform that makes media come to you.
Buy Penny's book The Amazon Author Formula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sansevierie andAmy Cornell, and today we are
talking about the age-oldquestion of how to get picked up
by media, and we're going to belooking at national media, for
(00:23):
sure, but we're also going to betalking a little bit about
local media, which is somethingthat I know authors a lot of
times overlook.
I want to thank you all forlistening.
If this is your first timeyou're just now tuning in we
welcome welcome to the show.
We had five years of the show,so feel free to go back and kind
of get to know us and get toknow the topics that we talk
(00:43):
about.
Kind of get to know us and getto know the topics that we talk
about.
If you are a multi-episodelistener, we're so glad that
you're here.
Thank you also for some of thegreat reviews that we've been
getting.
We love reviews.
We always check them.
It's actually scary how manytimes we check for reviews.
(01:04):
We appreciate it and I knowthat it's sometimes difficult to
leave a review and, matter offact, I just got an email from
somebody who mentioned thatSomebody in the book marketing
arena and she's like, oh, it'sreally hard to leave reviews on
um on on Apple podcasts.
(01:26):
I don't know why they make itso difficult, but anyway, you're
welcome to always email us thereview and and um, we'll, we'll,
you know, we'll post it forsure.
So, um, oh, and the other thingthat I wanted to mention, which
I think is well, which I knowis really amazing, is we just
got voted the number onemarketing blog, slash website in
(01:54):
like the entire planet.
It was a Feedspot article thatwe got just yesterday and if you
follow me on social, youprobably saw me cheering and
super excited.
So yeah, book marketing blogs,we are number one.
I don't even know what to say.
(02:14):
I was just so stoked about that.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I know that was very cool and you're right.
When Penny pointed it out to me, she texted me about it.
She said on the planet.
And I'm like that's a funny,you know, but I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
We will absolutely take that.
Yeah On the planet.
I love that I will.
I will definitely take it.
So thank you for whoever votedus.
Um, and if you're not familiarwith our blog, aexpertcom,
backslash, forward, slash Ialways get the slashes confused
Blog I think you can find itthat way.
(02:52):
You can also go to our homepageand there's a link to the blog.
So we have a lot of content, weput out a lot of content.
In fact, it's funny because Iwas sharing that with somebody
yesterday and they were like,wait, you put up, you have a
blog and you have a podcast andyou're doing the podcast weekly
and you have the you know allthis content on the blog.
I said, yeah, they said youcreate a lot of you create a lot
(03:13):
of content.
And I said, yeah, we are.
We do create a lot of contentbecause I think and Amy and I
feel both feel the same wayInformation is power and the
educated author makes betterchoices.
Hence the podcast.
And speaking of better choices,one of the top things that
authors ask, both Amy and myself, is I want to get picked up by
(03:37):
big national media, I want mybook to be on the Today Show or
I want it to be on you knowwhatever right on the Today Show
.
Or I want it to be on you knowwhatever Right.
And I think that that's a greatgoal to have, obviously.
But it's a lot of times authorswill say you know, I want this,
can't you just pitch them Right?
(03:59):
And I mean, amy, do you want to?
Do you want to speak to that alittle bit, because you and I
have had multiple conversationson this topic?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, and I mean, I think the toughest part and we
talk about this a lot because wecompletely understand where it
comes from you have goals.
You say I want this, I wantthat.
That's amazing, but you reallyhave to remember to put yourself
on the other side of theequation and think about.
What is the media looking for,what are thought leaders looking
for?
(04:29):
Because people, believe it ornot, these outlets don't exist
to do favors for anybody or tohelp them promote their work or
their business, or you know whatI mean.
So featuring your work,interviewing you, all of that
reflects directly on the outletsor the organization or the
individual that you're trying topitch to, and it's really
(04:49):
important to keep that in mind.
You know they have an image tomaintain, they have followers
that they want to be sure thatthey are putting out the right
content, for that's how theymake their money, that's how
they build their brands.
So these people are not you knowI'm just going to be blunt
about it they are not going togo out on a limb for you to just
(05:11):
give you your shot at fame,right?
You know so a lot about gettingmedia coverage and securing
yeses is putting in the work tomake sure you're presenting
yourself as a sure thing andthat you're also doing your part
to meet them.
Honestly, penny, I would sayit's more than halfway.
You know what I mean.
This is more of an 80-20 sortof situation.
You really have to bring it andyou have to show them that you
have something to offer and youhave to make it click for them
(05:32):
that this is what I have tooffer your followers.
It makes sense for you, itmakes sense for them.
They're going to be happy,you're going to be happy, it's
going to work out great foreverybody.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
And that's really when people start getting yeses,
because we've been doing thisfor a while, that we have all
these contacts, and I alwaysexplain to authors I say, you
(06:07):
know it doesn't.
I mean, yes, the contactsabsolutely matter, but at the
end of the day, the contacts arelooking for so those producers,
whatever they're looking for,things, as Amy pointed out, that
are going to matter to theirfollowers.
So my having a quote unquote inwith a major morning show is
(06:29):
still not going to guarantee youa spot on that show, because it
has to be.
I mean, there's so much moneyin any of these shows, in the
advertisers and things like that, right, oh yeah, it's complex,
it's very complex, in fact.
You know, what's interesting isthat so years ago we worked
with a book and it was a wholebook on Trader Joe's recipes.
(06:53):
So it was all this stuff thatyou could make with things that
were specifically to, you know,the Trader Joe's brand.
And I actually got on the phonewith a producer, the book
producer at the Today Show, whosaid to me you know, we'd really
love to have this author, theseauthors, on.
It was two authors.
(07:14):
But the problem is, is Vons, isour advertiser, right?
And so they have to, they haveto look at that.
They say you know, this wouldbe a really fun segment for the
show Because I said you knowthey'll come to New York, they
can do cooking and all thisother stuff and she really loved
it.
But she said Vons is ouradvertiser.
So the decisions to havesomebody on the show versus not
(07:38):
on the show a lot of times,unfortunately, come down to
money Right.
So that's the other thing tokind of think of.
It's not just a matter but allof that said, there are ways
that you can, if you really sayyou know, penny, look, I get it.
I know the odds are challenging, but I really want to position
(07:58):
myself correctly and that's whatwe're going to focus on in the
show.
There definitely is a way in.
So it's not this, you know,it's not Amy and I saying don't
dream the impossible dream.
There's definitely a way in,but you have to be strategic
about it and I think there are alot of examples that we're
going to get to that are, I mean, I would say that pretty much
(08:20):
everything that we're talkingabout today is equally important
.
So this isn't like do thisfirst and then do that.
Honestly, if you can do all ofthis stuff simultaneously, which
I hate, to say that I hate tosound like, oh my gosh, do this
all at once as if you havenothing else going on in your
life.
Um, but they're, they all haveequal importance, like there
(08:44):
isn't anything on this list thatwe say well, you know, you can
kind of wait on this until later, because the sooner that you
start, the sooner that you'regoing to get yourself to a place
where, um, you have a platform,you have something that the
media is going to pay attentionto, you know, and if you're
listening to this and you'refiction and you're like, well,
do I stand a chance?
And yeah, absolutely you do.
(09:04):
But you also have to realizethat, in terms of like fiction
authors, for example, the TodayShow has, on average, four
authors on a year.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Sorry, I almost fell out of my chair.
Every time we talk about thatkind of stuff, I know right, and
those are generally fictionauthors, so nonfiction.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
They have maybe a little bit more of an advantage
if it ties into something that'sgoing on nationally, right.
So that's the that's the otherpiece of this I highly recommend
.
Do a lot of local media.
Do a lot of local media.
Authors oftentimes want to skipthis line.
They want to skip this and jumpthe line.
(09:52):
Rather, is what I should havesaid Do lots of local media.
Now, there's a couple reasonswhy you want to do it.
First off, it's great to getyour feet wet in local right,
it's great to.
If you're going to make I mean,I hate to say it like this like
local media is very importantand should be respected, but if
you're going to make yourmistakes, don't make them on
national TV, right, right, youknow what I mean.
(10:14):
If you're going to say too muchin an interview, you want to
know that you're doing that sothat you can work on that, and
local media will kind of youknow again, local media is very
important, but if you're goingto make your mistakes, make them
locally.
The other reason that you wantto do local media is because if
you aspire to be on I don't know, like any kind of a talk show
(10:37):
or I mean really any nationalshow.
They have scouts everywhere andOprah actually started this
with her show.
So Oprah had scouts all overthe country and of course it's a
lot easier now with socialmedia than it was in the Oprah
show.
You know every single showthat's on, every you know midday
(10:58):
show, morning show.
They're all competing to be thefirst one to the news trough,
so to speak, which is why youknow this is an unfortunate
byproduct of that.
But you'll see news outletsmaking retractions on stories
(11:23):
that they jumped on that weren'tquite accurate, which really,
you know that's a whole separatesidebar conversation, but they
really want to be the first onewith that story.
So a lot of these news placesare looking for stories locally.
Okay, and you know, as anexample which is probably
unfortunately still going on aswe're recording this podcast,
(11:43):
the Karen Reed trial right.
So that has everybody's likeobsessed with the Karen Reed
trial.
Amy and I both haveconversations about it and part
of the reason why that got somuch attention was because, I
mean, it got a lot of localfervor right.
(12:03):
But then and I can't believethat I'm actually saying this on
the podcast then some guy namedTurtle Boy took off with this.
The point being is that,unfortunately, there are murder
trials going on every day inthis country.
Right, the majority of themdon't make that kind of national
news.
Something about this reallysparked, and the rest, as they
(12:25):
say, is history.
Your national media is lookingfor stories at a local level
that nobody else has touched yet, and so that's part of the
reason why doing local mediasaturate yourself with local
media.
In fact, there's a story and Iknow I've shared it before on
this show there were two authorsand they lived in New Orleans
and they wrote a cookbook onCajun cooking which, honestly,
(12:49):
if you go into any bookstore inthat area, I mean you could
literally throw a rock and hit50 Cajun cookbooks Like it's not
a novelty thing.
But they did every single localmedia outlet, both in their
area and all the surroundingareas, like they were relentless
and they ended up getting a.
They actually ended up gettinga big publishing deal because
(13:11):
they self-published the bookoriginally.
Chicken Soup for the Soul iskind of the same thing.
They started out doing alllocal media and they did any
media.
By the way, this is anotherthing too, not just local media,
but any.
Do not say no to media right.
Sometimes we have authors whoare like, well, I just, you know
(13:34):
, I turned that down because Ididn't think that it was really
right for me.
I mean, there's a differencebetween it not being right for
you or just turning it downbecause, I'm sorry to say,
you're kind of being a snob.
Right, right?
Not being right for you is likeI don't really feel comfortable
(13:54):
being on the Howard Stern showbecause, whatever, that's a
different scenario.
What I'm talking about eventhough I have a story about that
too, about an author who wenton and did amazingly well on
that show and sold like a ton ofbooks.
But don't turn down any media,right, because that's something.
And, amy, we see this whenauthors start to get start to
(14:15):
really pick and choose the mediathat they're going to be on,
and it doesn't I mean, with theexception of, like the Howard
Stern example that I gave itdoesn't really serve them.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, exactly.
It always blows me away whensomebody says no to something.
I understand if there's.
There are plenty of people nowthat are able to demand some
sort of pay to play, and I thinkpodcasts are turning that more
two-penny just becauseproduction costs and things like
that.
So you know they.
There might be fees involvedand you know I can respect if
(14:50):
you have to be careful aboutyour budget, but for anything
that doesn't actually cost youadditional in what you're
already investing in your youknow you've planned to invest in
your marketing plan it reallydoesn't make sense to not get in
front of those people.
And the one that really bugs meand I think it's pretty common
is when authors say like well,they don't look like they have a
very big following, but thatperson even has 200 people that
(15:12):
listen to their recommendations,that follow their advice, that
respect their opinions.
That's 200 people that you arepotentially getting in front of
that may end up buying your book.
Yeah, and I don't know howanybody can turn that down, you
know.
So to say, oh, they don't haveat least 10,000 followers or
they don't work for you knowthis tier of media or something
(15:34):
like that, just blows me awayand I realized nobody's ever
going to.
You know, 100% of theirfollowers aren't going to end up
being your buyers, but you know, even if 10% of those people
click through and check out yourbook on Amazon, that is
incredible and you can't leavethose kinds of opportunities on
the table.
So definitely, please, please,please, stop saying no or stop
(15:54):
overanalyzing whether or nottheir following is big enough to
determine whether or not it'sworth your time.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Right, right, exactly .
Do you want to take the second?
Do you want to take the secondbullet, amy, on the?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, because this one is I mean, we do a lot of this.
Yeah, I'll throw it right outthere so I don't bury the lead
but be able to concisely conveywhat makes you and your work
unique, what makes it timely,what makes it important and, I
would say, most critical of all,what makes it necessary.
Yes, you know what, like, youhave to be able to share these
(16:30):
things in a really exciting, fun, interesting way.
We help our clients with thiskind of language too.
So if this, if you're like Idon't know how to write, you
know super compelling stuff, Ican, I can tell you about it.
But so you can work with a teamor work with a professional
that can help you fine tune yourmessage, but you have to be
able to give them something towork with.
(16:51):
You need to be the expert inyour book, and I think we have
that conversation with authors alot, Penny, and it surprises
them when they say, like, well,what do you think about my book
and what are you?
Know what I mean?
They're asking us questionsthat we kind of have to push
back on them and say you need toknow the answers to that.
Yeah, you know, you are theexpert in your work.
(17:12):
You are the expert.
In your point of view.
That is not something that wecan create for you.
You know that is something thatshould have been ingrained in
your book from day one and inyour message and in your content
.
You know, and I think, anotherone so do your competitive
research.
Make sure you know what makesyou unique.
This is something you reallyhave to lean into.
And then this is another bigone the danger of getting
(17:38):
wrapped up in assuming everyonewill instantly understand why
you're so great.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes, and we're not.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
we're not saying that to knock you or to make you
feel bad, but it's so easy tothink like you know.
You know to my previous point.
You know your book inside andout.
You know why your content'swonderful.
You know why your way of doingthings or your approach to
something is unique in themarket and better than what's
out there.
That's fantastic.
But you have to be able toconnect that dot for the people
(18:09):
on the receiving end, for yourpotential buyers and the
consumers, and you can't justassume they will take the time
or instantly be able to figureit out.
So that's why your messaging isreally important Taking what
makes you special and makingsure you're conveying that in
really strategic, smart,intelligent ways that connect
those dots and let people knowthat you have the answers that
(18:32):
they're looking for.
Yeah, exactly, just having yourbook sitting on the virtual
shelf or even a local shelf isnot enough.
You really have to do thatoutreach, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Well, yes, and I think that you have to, as you
pointed out, you really have toconnect the dots for them,
because they are not going toconnect those dots on your
behalf I mean not because, andit's not at all because they're
lazy, they just don't have thetime.
(19:05):
So you have to be able topresent this to them in such a
way that here are the reasonswhy this is going to matter to
your listener, viewer, reader,whatever, right, and I think
that one of the ways that youcan do that is by being vocal.
So have some kind of an outlet,whether it's on your blog or on
(19:27):
if you have a podcast or ifyou're doing a lot of podcasts.
That's another great benefit,too is make sure that you are
out there and you're talkingabout all the things related to
your topic.
Because, as you're pitchingyourself and I will tell you
that, and again, when an authorcomes to us as the expert, as
(19:53):
the book publicists, when Ipitch an author to media, when I
pitch an author to media andyou don't have a website which I
got to tell you I am not goingto do first off, right, um, but
but if you pitch yourself tomedia and they look and you
don't have a website and youdon't really have a social media
(20:15):
presence, I mean, unless you,you know, or some famous person
that came back from the dead orsomething like I.
Just they're not.
You know what I mean.
They're not going to give youthe time of day, unfortunately
and I hate to sound so cut anddry, but it really is.
I mean, it's a very, it's a,you know, it can be, it can feel
(20:38):
like a very unfeeling kind ofworld when you're going out
there.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You're pitching yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, but I have an important message and this is
really going to help people, andpeople are.
It matters to the readersbecause of all of these things.
And you may have your pitchdown, Pat, but if you're not
vocal somewhere, like if you'renot out there and you're not
talking about this message, youcan have the best pitch in the
world and it's not going tomatter.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Exactly, and that's not just us being.
I appreciate that you said that, penny, because that's just us
being honest with you.
You know we're not trying toget anybody down by.
If you're going, oh well,that's working against me right
now.
Oh, I haven't done that yet.
We're not trying to bum you out.
We really want to set you upfor success and we see a lot of
authors spend a lot of moneydoing things out of order or
(21:26):
before their brand.
Your platform is reallyprepared to support your goals
and yeah, and it's a great wayto blow through a ton of
marketing investment withoutvery little return, no responses
, and you're wondering.
That's when we get authorscoming to us and going.
Should I give up?
And it's like no, let's, let'stalk about this and figure out
(21:47):
what's been done and what hasn'tand see where we can help you
fill in some gaps here.
You know we do a lot of that.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Right, exactly, and I think the other thing to
remember part of the reason whywe're being so I hope we're not
sounding critical because it'snot our intention.
Sometimes you don't get asecond run at media and I
caution authors about this allthe time Like if you get put in
a bucket by a producer thatyou're always pitching and
(22:17):
there's no angle, there's noplatform, there's nothing that
they can really sink their teethinto and there's no angle,
there's no platform, there'snothing that they can really
sink their teeth into.
It's really going to get hard.
It's really going to be hard.
I mean, you essentiallyundermine yourself with that.
So one of the things if anauthor comes to me and they say
you know, I really want to donational media and Amy is
actually probably way better offthis than I am Because I really
(22:37):
hate even though I know I soundlike I'm just crushing dreams
all over the place like I hategetting on the phone with an
author and telling them no,that's not me.
Yeah, I really Amy knows me sowell Like I hate getting on the
phone, like telling them no, anda lot of times Amy and I will
have this conversation and I'llsay well, you know, as we're
putting together this proposal.
Well, this author really wantedX, y, z, and she will very
(23:02):
smartly come back to me and say,okay, well, we can give them X,
but Y and Z are going to haveto wait.
And here are the five reasonswhy, and the majority of time
that comes down to the thingsthat we've talked about up to
this point because we know thatif they're not ready, the media
is not going to want them andthey're going to shoot their
shot.
(23:22):
You know, what I mean Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
What?
No, I agree with you 100%, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Do you want to take the next one?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, definitely so, and we've talked about this on
other shows too being current inyour knowledge.
Yes, this is a big one, and Ilike to use the term time
capsule because and Penny's aperfect example because she
writes about Amazon.
She writes in.
Amazon is constantly changing,so Penny really has.
I mean, if you could pick atopic that would be one of the
(23:57):
most challenging to stay on topof year after year, I think you
would win, penny.
Thank you, yes, yes, truly.
You know the amount of revisionsyou have to do for your Amazon
books is incredible, justbecause to keep up with that
company and everything that it'sconstantly doing and changing.
And you know it's challenging,but it really it matters to
(24:22):
anybody.
Definitely, writing nonfictionthis one doesn't apply to
fiction quite so much, but we'vedone episodes on.
You know your backlist andimproving.
You know books that you'vereleased previously, so check
those out.
But for nonfiction, youdefinitely want to be current in
what's going on, and that's ahuge part of the pitching too.
A lot of this, you know, playsoff of each other, but when
you're pitching somebody, likewe've said already, you don't
(24:44):
want to just pitch.
This is what my book is about.
I know you're going to love it.
You know you really need tomake sure you're tying into
what's going on in the world,what's going on in your industry
, what consumers are concernedwith, what problems they're
having, and so it's reallyimportant to stay current in
(25:08):
what's being talked about.
It's easy to get wrapped up intowhat your book is solely about,
but a lot of times you, as theperson with the ideas, you are
the one opening the doors to getcoverage for your book.
And a lot of times, penny, wesee that that will happen kind
of not really with the book inmind.
Initially, we'll say our clientcan speak to X, y and Z, and
this is how they're different,and things like that, and that's
actually what gets them thecoverage, which then gives them
(25:29):
an opportunity to talk abouttheir book, that they wrote a
book.
You can find more of this in mybook, that kind of thing, but
so often the book isn't actuallywhat secures the interest in
the first place, right?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
The book generally is not theleader in the conversation.
The book is the reason for theconversation, potentially, but
you are the leader in theconversation, I think, staying
current.
I realize that everything thatwe're talking about is a
full-time job, but stayingcurrent is really, really
(26:05):
important, and it's going to beeasier to stay current if you're
doing lots of as I first talkedabout, lots of local media,
because that's also, I mean, thesame rules apply to local, like
they.
Really.
They want somebody that's goingto be right for their audience
and you know, et cetera.
They also want you to becurrent.
(26:27):
They don't want a guest to beon their sighting statistics
that are five years old, right,right, exactly that you know.
When it comes to social media,you don't have to be everywhere,
just everywhere.
That matters, even if thatmeans just being on one platform
, right.
And then sharing information,sharing knowledge and
(26:50):
information on that platform isgoing to be really important and
it's not something you don'thave to do it every single day,
but you definitely want to finda routine that is consistent and
the information that you shareon social media can be, I mean,
you know, amy, and I, I mean we.
I led this conversation bytalking about how much content
that we create and sometimesthat gets to be a little bit
(27:12):
overwhelming.
So we recycle a lot of stuffthat we do, recycle a lot of
stuff that we do, and part ofthat is like taking you know
podcast content and thenexcerpting for you know when we
run the shows on Friday on theblog and then posting that to
(27:34):
social.
So there's no reason that youhave to continually recreate the
wheel, but figure out a trackand you can use that content in
all different places.
You can use it in you know, inyour socials and that kind of
thing.
So you're not having to createlike if you're thinking and like
, oh my gosh, but I need to havetime to write the book, great,
(27:56):
you don't necessarily have tocreate new content for all these
different portals all the time.
You can create one piece ofcontent and reuse it all the
time.
The other thing that I think isworth noting here if you
sometimes we get really we gettoo close to our own message Get
a chat GPT account, get a paidaccount.
I am not a spokesperson for chatGPT.
(28:16):
I just want to mention that Iam not a spokesperson for
ChatGPT.
I just want to mention thatMake sure that you put yourself
in a locked system, meaning thatthere's a toggle in chat in the
settings, where you can chooseto share everything with
everybody and that's essentiallyhow chat learns or you can lock
it.
Put yourself in a locked systemand upload your book to ChatGPT
(28:37):
your entire book and ask it fortalking points, ask it for
relevant topics.
Really, ask this AI to dig intoyour book.
Sometimes I've done it and eventhough I update, you know I
talk about Amazon.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I teach about Amazon, amy, and I do lots of Amazon
work.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I wish I had a dime, for every time I've said
amazoncom.
I would be richer than Bezosliterally At the same time.
Sometimes it's really hard tocome up with your own content
and chat, and the reason Imentioned is sitting in a locked
system is that way.
You don't feel like you'reuploading your book and chat's
just going to use it, for youknow 50 other people who have
(29:16):
access to the same system.
Put it in a locked system andthat way you can have access to
a same system.
Put it in a locked system andthat way you can have access to
a portal that will help you.
It's like your second brain,and I cannot tell you how much
this has really helped metremendously to come up with new
topics.
And we do have the podcast too.
We're just like you know howare we going to use this.
(29:37):
So that's just an idea and thatis going to be a way to help
you get you know.
Come up with blog content,social media content, if you
feel like you're just, you don'tknow what else to talk about.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yes, absolutely, and I think that's one thing.
As much as we and we've doneshows on how to get around not
using social media.
But I would say this is onekind of.
If you really want big media,it's really hard to do ways
around it for a lot of othergoals, but if one of your goals
(30:14):
is big media, they don't justwant to see that you signed up
for an account.
They want to see that you'reusing it.
They want you know and again,this isn't don't go out and buy
10,000 followers with some botsand stuff like that.
It's not about that.
It's about what content you'reputting out there.
Like Penny was saying, Showcaseyour area of expertise,
Showcase your unique point ofview, the followers and the
(30:37):
engagement and stuff like that.
If you're putting out goodcontent, that can grow
organically.
So don't stress about thefollower numbers as much as just
showing that you're putting inthe effort and that you're
putting out quality content thatfurther highlights what you
have to offer.
That is really should be thefocus, not on the big numbers
and things like that.
That's not really why we'reencouraging authors to get
(30:58):
involved on social.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Right, right, exactly Right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Let's see what's the next one.
Oh, yes, because this isanother one where I know I upset
people.
Like Penny said, I amdefinitely the bad guy for a lot
of this, but I do try to letauthors know when they reach out
to us that these are just.
We want the best for you.
It's tough love, but it reallyis.
We want the best for you.
(31:24):
The next one is having a solidwebsite that's clean, it's
modern, it's informative,doesn't have to be over the top
complicated, it doesn't have tobe a bunch of different pages
Honestly, even a one-pager thathas the basics and that just
shows that you're putting in theeffort to create a home base
for your brand and your platformand for consumers to get a hold
(31:44):
of you and learn more about you.
That's what matters.
It's just, it really is one ofthose things that shows that
you're taking yourself seriouslyand, in turn, the people that
you're pitching yourself to willtake you more seriously as well
.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, and it doesn't have
to be a complicated website, asAmy mentioned.
Just something.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, honestly, sometimes, when they get too
complicated, it's like I havethe opposite reaction, you know,
yeah yeah, yeah, Just give methe good stuff, Right, right,
right, right, yeah, don't giveme too many options.
Yeah, and I think that you know, obviously it goes without
saying.
So your Amazon retail page orretail pages, depending on how
(32:27):
many books that you have out youwant to make sure that those
are really tightened up, and Iwould say we've done enough
shows on this.
We don't have to spend a lot oftime on it.
If you want it, if you are newto the show and you want to dig
into more Amazon stuff, we havea ton of content, so we won't
spend a lot of time on this.
But I think that you want tomake I mean, I don't think I
(32:54):
know you want to make a goodfirst impression.
You don't want to send peopleto a sloppy Amazon page.
The other reason is not just toimpress the producer or the
writer or whatever, or the host.
You want to make sure thatyou're impressing the reader and
anybody, like if you're luckyenough to land the gig, and
sending people to your Amazonpage that doesn't convert is
(33:14):
really not going to do you anygood.
So that's really important, notjust for your resume, but also,
you know later when you'rethinking positive when you get
the interview.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah, again, and a lot of this.
Like we've said many times,it's the more seriously you take
yourself, the more seriouslythey'll take you.
So everything that we'vementioned so far is, like Penny
said, it's a part of your resumeand you wouldn't leave
something big and impressive offof your resume if you were
applying for a new job.
Same thing Everything that youshould have for your platform is
(33:47):
a part of your author resume.
So don't try to skirt aroundthat and think that they won't
notice or it's really not big ofa deal, or I'll deal with that
later, after I've made a bunchof money off my book.
I think that would be.
That's another one that youwant to avoid that pitfall, to
do it at the front end.
And I know, Penny I almostthink we don't talk about that
enough how front loaded successas an author is.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, we really don't talk about it a lot and I have
this conversation with authorson the phone a lot of the times
is publishing is hugely frontloaded and it doesn't
necessarily mean that it gets.
I mean it does getincrementally easier as you
release books, but publishing abook is very much, is very much
(34:32):
a front-loaded endeavor, notjust monetarily but also in your
sweat equity.
Um, you really really have tobe willing to put and you know
it's interesting, I didn't tellyou this on a Saturday.
I got I love my little likeit's confession time everyone.
I I love my my Reddit app.
(34:53):
I love my little like it'sconfession time everyone.
I love my Reddit app.
I love Reddit actually, and alot of people kind of poo-poo
Reddit.
But I mean, amy and I have doneit.
There's a lot of deep diveresearch for things that we
found on Reddit and I'm in apublishing.
I don't know if I'm still in itNow.
I may have gotten kicked out orsomething, I don't know but so
(35:13):
this one publishing thread thisauthor posted I've already spent
I don't know whatever they saidit was like 200 bucks or
something on their book coverand now I'm finding that it's
going to cost, you know upwardsof $700 or so to get the book
edited and is there any way thatI can avoid getting my book
(35:34):
edited?
And I went to town on that post.
It was nice, but I was like youare really in the wrong
industry if you want to shortcut.
There are shortcuts and we talkabout we've actually talked.
We actually I think we did ashow on shortcuts.
But there are shortcuts and wetalk about we've actually talked
.
We'd actually, I think we did ashow on shortcuts.
But there are shortcuts thatyou can take that you know
(35:59):
people aren't, you know thereaders aren't necessarily going
to notice right, or things thatyou can cut out or ways to do
things easier, cause I thinkit's kind of human nature to
want to kind of do everythingthe hard way.
But your book presentation, yourediting, and I mean I just went
to town on this Reddit post andyou know what's funny is that
like I get notifications whensomebody is like giving you the
(36:21):
thumbs up on a post or something.
I got nothing from that.
Like I'm sorry to be killingthis party.
It was the self-publishingtrack on Reddit, I'm sure, a bit
like I said, I'm sure somebodykicked me out of the group at
this point.
But I was like I come herespeaking the truth, y'all have
to do the work.
(36:41):
And then some other guy was likewhy don't you just upload your
manuscript to chat TPT and havechat TPT edited?
And just out of curiosity I'mlike I'm not going to cut out
hiring a real editor ever, but Idecided to upload the formula
workbook to chat to BT and haveit do at see what it come up
with with editing.
It was a frigging nightmare.
He doesn't know editing fromapples.
I mean, I'm sorry, you knowwhat I mean.
(37:02):
So anyway, yeah, I don't knowwhere, why I went off on that
tangent, but I just felt like Ihad to say that apparently I'm
getting kicked off of Reddit nowfor being honest.
But I think that it you know,everything is your resume.
We talk about this all the time.
Absolutely Everything is yourresume.
If you wouldn't send it to apotential employer, don't
(37:25):
present it to your reader or,and certainly don't present it
to the media, right?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Right, exactly.
Highlight what you're proud of,don't highlight what what
you're proud of, don't highlightwhat you're not proud of.
Put it on your to-do list towork on.
You know Exactly.
And I think the next one too isone that and we get it.
It's.
It's sometimes challenging, youknow marketing is, it's a skill
and it's and it takes aschedule and we realize that's
(37:51):
hard to add to everything elsegoing on in your life 100%, but
you want to make sure you'reconsistently promoting and
sharing your wins and anycoverage you get.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You know this is really important because if
anything good that happens, youknow we encourage you to find
how can you capitalize on thatin like three different ways.
You know how do you make themost out of every single win and
you want to milk it for allit's worth.
So this is why it's importantto have social media, a website,
(38:23):
because obviously those are twogo-tos that you want to post
coverage.
We've talked about this before,but you know, having a media
page on your website, definitelysharing that coverage on social
, when you're doing it on social, be sure you're tagging the
entities and individuals.
If they're on social, you wantto show them that and this
(38:43):
matters to other places too theywill see that you have shared
coverage and you've tagged.
I mean you're sending traffictheir way.
All of that matters.
That networking is critical.
So it's twofold.
So not only are you making surethat everything that you've
earned, everything good thathappens for you, you're making
sure as many people as possibleknow about it, but then, on top
(39:04):
of it, you're using thoseopportunities to do some further
networking with the kind ofindividuals that you could get
coverage for later, or you canuse that as part of your resume,
you know when you go to pitchthose next tier media showing
look, I got coverage here, I gotcoverage there.
Make it easy for people to seehow well you're doing.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Essentially, what I'm saying?
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So you definitely want to highlight all those
things we love when authors sendus.
I love it when clients send us.
I got this, I got that.
My interview is going to golive on this podcast on this
date and I sound like a brokenrecord, but every single time
and they may hear it from mefive or six times, but I always
remind them what they can dowith it.
Like we love that.
Congratulations.
(39:48):
That's amazing.
Have you done X, y and Z withit yet?
You know, yeah, because alwayslike, make that your goal,
anything good that happens.
Find three, at least threeother ways at minimum that you
can get that win out there infront of more people and make a
big deal about it.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, and you know, I think it's to some and I
understand that for some authorsthat's a bit, you know, like,
oh well, I don't want to boast,I don't want to brag, and we're
both here to tell you.
You just brag your little heartout Because you, whenever you
get any kind of a hit and wetell so, we did a.
We had one of our, we have aninfluencer on the team and we
(40:28):
had asked her to do a tour forthe podcast.
We have asked her to do a tourfor the podcast and every single
person, every single influencerwho reviewed and they didn't so
much review the podcast as theyshared it, Um, I mean, I think
some of them posted a review,like we listened and we loved it
, whatever, but um, they are uh,I went in and thanked every
(40:51):
single one of them because Ithink it's really important,
unless you're going to be aone-hit wonder, share your wins,
post them in your media room onyour website, make sure that
you have one central place sothat when you're pitching media,
you can send them the link andyou can see where else they have
been featured.
It's also very impressive, likewhen I'm talking to an author
(41:11):
and I see all the places they'vebeen featured.
It's like, oh, this is reallygreat.
But the other thing is you wantto make sure and thank
everybody who you know.
If you've been on a podcast,send them a thank you, note
Influencers sharing and thenalso share and tag them, as Amy
said, because that's a great,great, great way to build
relationships.
And, honestly, you know, yes,it's about writing a good book,
(41:37):
it's about all the things thatwe talk about on the show, but
it's also very, very much aboutrelationships and you really you
don't want to burn any bridgeswith people by not just reaching
out to them or sharing, sharingtheir, sharing their posts to
your group.
It's just, it's a really,really nice thing to do, even if
you say, yeah, but, penny, Idon't have a lot of followers,
it doesn't really matter.
You know what I mean.
It's the effort that matters.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
So yes, yes, please.
It's showing that you'refollowing through and taking
yourself seriously, even ifyou're just shouting to a room
of 10 people.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah , exactly, Because the other
thing to consider random rightand ran it or bought the book,
(42:39):
didn't even email the author toask for a review copy, which she
very easily could have, andraved about the book on her blog
.
And this right, I mean theconnections, and Amy and I could
do a whole entire show on thistopic.
Sometimes the connections makeno sense and this author even
(43:00):
told me she was like I wouldhave never expected this.
And those are the best kind ofwins, right, but you only get
there if you're doing all theright things.
So hopefully this show has beenhelpful and not discouraging
like I was on Reddit the otherday oh my gosh, I get myself
into so much trouble sometimes.
(43:22):
But we appreciate you listening.
Oh, and very excited.
I meant to lead the show withthis and I totally forgot.
But the Amazon Author FormulaWorkbook is done.
It's in final interior design,and by final I mean really final
, final, and maybe even by thetime this show hits, it'll be up
for pre-order.
If it is, we will definitelyadd that to the show notes so
(43:44):
y'all can be first to grab yourcopy.
I'm so excited to have anotherbook coming out this year.
I want to thank you all so muchfor listening.
We love show ideas.
We love your show feedback, sohow to get in touch with us is
in the show notes and, if youhaven't, if this is your first
listen, thank you, we hope youhave.
We hope we haven't completelydiscouraged you from all things
(44:06):
book marketing.
But be sure to subscribe to theshow so that you get notified
every time there's an episodewhich we drop every Friday.
Thank you so much for listening.
Bye-bye.
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sansevierie andAmy Cornell, and today we are
talking about the age-oldquestion of how to get picked up
by media, and we're going to belooking at national media, for
(00:23):
sure, but we're also going to betalking a little bit about
local media, which is somethingthat I know authors a lot of
times overlook.
I want to thank you all forlistening.
If this is your first timeyou're just now tuning in we
welcome welcome to the show.
We had five years of the show,so feel free to go back and kind
of get to know us and get toknow the topics that we talk
(00:43):
about.
Kind of get to know us and getto know the topics that we talk
about.
If you are a multi-episodelistener, we're so glad that
you're here.
Thank you also for some of thegreat reviews that we've been
getting.
We love reviews.
We always check them.
It's actually scary how manytimes we check for reviews.
(01:04):
We appreciate it and I knowthat it's sometimes difficult to
leave a review and, matter offact, I just got an email from
somebody who mentioned thatSomebody in the book marketing
arena and she's like, oh, it'sreally hard to leave reviews on
um on on Apple podcasts.
(01:26):
I don't know why they make itso difficult, but anyway, you're
welcome to always email us thereview and and um, we'll, we'll,
you know, we'll post it forsure.
So, um, oh, and the other thingthat I wanted to mention, which
I think is well, which I knowis really amazing, is we just
got voted the number onemarketing blog, slash website in
(01:54):
like the entire planet.
It was a Feedspot article thatwe got just yesterday and if you
follow me on social, youprobably saw me cheering and
super excited.
So yeah, book marketing blogs,we are number one.
I don't even know what to say.
(02:14):
I was just so stoked about that.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I know that was very cool and you're right.
When Penny pointed it out to me, she texted me about it.
She said on the planet.
And I'm like that's a funny,you know, but I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
We will absolutely take that.
Yeah On the planet.
I love that I will.
I will definitely take it.
So thank you for whoever votedus.
Um, and if you're not familiarwith our blog, aexpertcom,
backslash, forward, slash Ialways get the slashes confused
Blog I think you can find itthat way.
(02:52):
You can also go to our homepageand there's a link to the blog.
So we have a lot of content, weput out a lot of content.
In fact, it's funny because Iwas sharing that with somebody
yesterday and they were like,wait, you put up, you have a
blog and you have a podcast andyou're doing the podcast weekly
and you have the you know allthis content on the blog.
I said, yeah, they said youcreate a lot of you create a lot
(03:13):
of content.
And I said, yeah, we are.
We do create a lot of contentbecause I think and Amy and I
feel both feel the same wayInformation is power and the
educated author makes betterchoices.
Hence the podcast.
And speaking of better choices,one of the top things that
authors ask, both Amy and myself, is I want to get picked up by
(03:37):
big national media, I want mybook to be on the Today Show or
I want it to be on you knowwhatever right on the Today Show
.
Or I want it to be on you knowwhatever Right.
And I think that that's a greatgoal to have, obviously.
But it's a lot of times authorswill say you know, I want this,
can't you just pitch them Right?
(03:59):
And I mean, amy, do you want to?
Do you want to speak to that alittle bit, because you and I
have had multiple conversationson this topic?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, and I mean, I think the toughest part and we
talk about this a lot because wecompletely understand where it
comes from you have goals.
You say I want this, I wantthat.
That's amazing, but you reallyhave to remember to put yourself
on the other side of theequation and think about.
What is the media looking for,what are thought leaders looking
for?
(04:29):
Because people, believe it ornot, these outlets don't exist
to do favors for anybody or tohelp them promote their work or
their business, or you know whatI mean.
So featuring your work,interviewing you, all of that
reflects directly on the outletsor the organization or the
individual that you're trying topitch to, and it's really
(04:49):
important to keep that in mind.
You know they have an image tomaintain, they have followers
that they want to be sure thatthey are putting out the right
content, for that's how theymake their money, that's how
they build their brands.
So these people are not you knowI'm just going to be blunt
about it they are not going togo out on a limb for you to just
(05:11):
give you your shot at fame,right?
You know so a lot about gettingmedia coverage and securing
yeses is putting in the work tomake sure you're presenting
yourself as a sure thing andthat you're also doing your part
to meet them.
Honestly, penny, I would sayit's more than halfway.
You know what I mean.
This is more of an 80-20 sortof situation.
You really have to bring it andyou have to show them that you
have something to offer and youhave to make it click for them
(05:32):
that this is what I have tooffer your followers.
It makes sense for you, itmakes sense for them.
They're going to be happy,you're going to be happy, it's
going to work out great foreverybody.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
And that's really when people start getting yeses,
because we've been doing thisfor a while, that we have all
these contacts, and I alwaysexplain to authors I say, you
(06:07):
know it doesn't.
I mean, yes, the contactsabsolutely matter, but at the
end of the day, the contacts arelooking for so those producers,
whatever they're looking for,things, as Amy pointed out, that
are going to matter to theirfollowers.
So my having a quote unquote inwith a major morning show is
(06:29):
still not going to guarantee youa spot on that show, because it
has to be.
I mean, there's so much moneyin any of these shows, in the
advertisers and things like that, right, oh yeah, it's complex,
it's very complex, in fact.
You know, what's interesting isthat so years ago we worked
with a book and it was a wholebook on Trader Joe's recipes.
(06:53):
So it was all this stuff thatyou could make with things that
were specifically to, you know,the Trader Joe's brand.
And I actually got on the phonewith a producer, the book
producer at the Today Show, whosaid to me you know, we'd really
love to have this author, theseauthors, on.
It was two authors.
(07:14):
But the problem is, is Vons, isour advertiser, right?
And so they have to, they haveto look at that.
They say you know, this wouldbe a really fun segment for the
show Because I said you knowthey'll come to New York, they
can do cooking and all thisother stuff and she really loved
it.
But she said Vons is ouradvertiser.
So the decisions to havesomebody on the show versus not
(07:38):
on the show a lot of times,unfortunately, come down to
money Right.
So that's the other thing tokind of think of.
It's not just a matter but allof that said, there are ways
that you can, if you really sayyou know, penny, look, I get it.
I know the odds are challenging, but I really want to position
(07:58):
myself correctly and that's whatwe're going to focus on in the
show.
There definitely is a way in.
So it's not this, you know,it's not Amy and I saying don't
dream the impossible dream.
There's definitely a way in,but you have to be strategic
about it and I think there are alot of examples that we're
going to get to that are, I mean, I would say that pretty much
(08:20):
everything that we're talkingabout today is equally important
.
So this isn't like do thisfirst and then do that.
Honestly, if you can do all ofthis stuff simultaneously, which
I hate, to say that I hate tosound like, oh my gosh, do this
all at once as if you havenothing else going on in your
life.
Um, but they're, they all haveequal importance, like there
(08:44):
isn't anything on this list thatwe say well, you know, you can
kind of wait on this until later, because the sooner that you
start, the sooner that you'regoing to get yourself to a place
where, um, you have a platform,you have something that the
media is going to pay attentionto, you know, and if you're
listening to this and you'refiction and you're like, well,
do I stand a chance?
And yeah, absolutely you do.
(09:04):
But you also have to realizethat, in terms of like fiction
authors, for example, the TodayShow has, on average, four
authors on a year.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Sorry, I almost fell out of my chair.
Every time we talk about thatkind of stuff, I know right, and
those are generally fictionauthors, so nonfiction.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
They have maybe a little bit more of an advantage
if it ties into something that'sgoing on nationally, right.
So that's the that's the otherpiece of this I highly recommend
.
Do a lot of local media.
Do a lot of local media.
Authors oftentimes want to skipthis line.
They want to skip this and jumpthe line.
(09:52):
Rather, is what I should havesaid Do lots of local media.
Now, there's a couple reasonswhy you want to do it.
First off, it's great to getyour feet wet in local right,
it's great to.
If you're going to make I mean,I hate to say it like this like
local media is very importantand should be respected, but if
you're going to make yourmistakes, don't make them on
national TV, right, right, youknow what I mean.
(10:14):
If you're going to say too muchin an interview, you want to
know that you're doing that sothat you can work on that, and
local media will kind of youknow again, local media is very
important, but if you're goingto make your mistakes, make them
locally.
The other reason that you wantto do local media is because if
you aspire to be on I don't know, like any kind of a talk show
(10:37):
or I mean really any nationalshow.
They have scouts everywhere andOprah actually started this
with her show.
So Oprah had scouts all overthe country and of course it's a
lot easier now with socialmedia than it was in the Oprah
show.
You know every single showthat's on, every you know midday
(10:58):
show, morning show.
They're all competing to be thefirst one to the news trough,
so to speak, which is why youknow this is an unfortunate
byproduct of that.
But you'll see news outletsmaking retractions on stories
(11:23):
that they jumped on that weren'tquite accurate, which really,
you know that's a whole separatesidebar conversation, but they
really want to be the first onewith that story.
So a lot of these news placesare looking for stories locally.
Okay, and you know, as anexample which is probably
unfortunately still going on aswe're recording this podcast,
(11:43):
the Karen Reed trial right.
So that has everybody's likeobsessed with the Karen Reed
trial.
Amy and I both haveconversations about it and part
of the reason why that got somuch attention was because, I
mean, it got a lot of localfervor right.
(12:03):
But then and I can't believethat I'm actually saying this on
the podcast then some guy namedTurtle Boy took off with this.
The point being is that,unfortunately, there are murder
trials going on every day inthis country.
Right, the majority of themdon't make that kind of national
news.
Something about this reallysparked, and the rest, as they
(12:25):
say, is history.
Your national media is lookingfor stories at a local level
that nobody else has touched yet, and so that's part of the
reason why doing local mediasaturate yourself with local
media.
In fact, there's a story and Iknow I've shared it before on
this show there were two authorsand they lived in New Orleans
and they wrote a cookbook onCajun cooking which, honestly,
(12:49):
if you go into any bookstore inthat area, I mean you could
literally throw a rock and hit50 Cajun cookbooks Like it's not
a novelty thing.
But they did every single localmedia outlet, both in their
area and all the surroundingareas, like they were relentless
and they ended up getting a.
They actually ended up gettinga big publishing deal because
(13:11):
they self-published the bookoriginally.
Chicken Soup for the Soul iskind of the same thing.
They started out doing alllocal media and they did any
media.
By the way, this is anotherthing too, not just local media,
but any.
Do not say no to media right.
Sometimes we have authors whoare like, well, I just, you know
(13:34):
, I turned that down because Ididn't think that it was really
right for me.
I mean, there's a differencebetween it not being right for
you or just turning it downbecause, I'm sorry to say,
you're kind of being a snob.
Right, right?
Not being right for you is likeI don't really feel comfortable
(13:54):
being on the Howard Stern showbecause, whatever, that's a
different scenario.
What I'm talking about eventhough I have a story about that
too, about an author who wenton and did amazingly well on
that show and sold like a ton ofbooks.
But don't turn down any media,right, because that's something.
And, amy, we see this whenauthors start to get start to
(14:15):
really pick and choose the mediathat they're going to be on,
and it doesn't I mean, with theexception of, like the Howard
Stern example that I gave itdoesn't really serve them.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, exactly.
It always blows me away whensomebody says no to something.
I understand if there's.
There are plenty of people nowthat are able to demand some
sort of pay to play, and I thinkpodcasts are turning that more
two-penny just becauseproduction costs and things like
that.
So you know they.
There might be fees involvedand you know I can respect if
(14:50):
you have to be careful aboutyour budget, but for anything
that doesn't actually cost youadditional in what you're
already investing in your youknow you've planned to invest in
your marketing plan it reallydoesn't make sense to not get in
front of those people.
And the one that really bugs meand I think it's pretty common
is when authors say like well,they don't look like they have a
very big following, but thatperson even has 200 people that
(15:12):
listen to their recommendations,that follow their advice, that
respect their opinions.
That's 200 people that you arepotentially getting in front of
that may end up buying your book.
Yeah, and I don't know howanybody can turn that down, you
know.
So to say, oh, they don't haveat least 10,000 followers or
they don't work for you knowthis tier of media or something
(15:34):
like that, just blows me awayand I realized nobody's ever
going to.
You know, 100% of theirfollowers aren't going to end up
being your buyers, but you know, even if 10% of those people
click through and check out yourbook on Amazon, that is
incredible and you can't leavethose kinds of opportunities on
the table.
So definitely, please, please,please, stop saying no or stop
(15:54):
overanalyzing whether or nottheir following is big enough to
determine whether or not it'sworth your time.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Right, right, exactly .
Do you want to take the second?
Do you want to take the secondbullet, amy, on the?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, because this one is I mean, we do a lot of this.
Yeah, I'll throw it right outthere so I don't bury the lead
but be able to concisely conveywhat makes you and your work
unique, what makes it timely,what makes it important and, I
would say, most critical of all,what makes it necessary.
Yes, you know what, like, youhave to be able to share these
(16:30):
things in a really exciting, fun, interesting way.
We help our clients with thiskind of language too.
So if this, if you're like Idon't know how to write, you
know super compelling stuff, Ican, I can tell you about it.
But so you can work with a teamor work with a professional
that can help you fine tune yourmessage, but you have to be
able to give them something towork with.
(16:51):
You need to be the expert inyour book, and I think we have
that conversation with authors alot, Penny, and it surprises
them when they say, like, well,what do you think about my book
and what are you?
Know what I mean?
They're asking us questionsthat we kind of have to push
back on them and say you need toknow the answers to that.
Yeah, you know, you are theexpert in your work.
(17:12):
You are the expert.
In your point of view.
That is not something that wecan create for you.
You know that is something thatshould have been ingrained in
your book from day one and inyour message and in your content
.
You know, and I think, anotherone so do your competitive
research.
Make sure you know what makesyou unique.
This is something you reallyhave to lean into.
And then this is another bigone the danger of getting
(17:38):
wrapped up in assuming everyonewill instantly understand why
you're so great.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes, and we're not.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
we're not saying that to knock you or to make you
feel bad, but it's so easy tothink like you know.
You know to my previous point.
You know your book inside andout.
You know why your content'swonderful.
You know why your way of doingthings or your approach to
something is unique in themarket and better than what's
out there.
That's fantastic.
But you have to be able toconnect that dot for the people
(18:09):
on the receiving end, for yourpotential buyers and the
consumers, and you can't justassume they will take the time
or instantly be able to figureit out.
So that's why your messaging isreally important Taking what
makes you special and makingsure you're conveying that in
really strategic, smart,intelligent ways that connect
those dots and let people knowthat you have the answers that
(18:32):
they're looking for.
Yeah, exactly, just having yourbook sitting on the virtual
shelf or even a local shelf isnot enough.
You really have to do thatoutreach, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Well, yes, and I think that you have to, as you
pointed out, you really have toconnect the dots for them,
because they are not going toconnect those dots on your
behalf I mean not because, andit's not at all because they're
lazy, they just don't have thetime.
(19:05):
So you have to be able topresent this to them in such a
way that here are the reasonswhy this is going to matter to
your listener, viewer, reader,whatever, right, and I think
that one of the ways that youcan do that is by being vocal.
So have some kind of an outlet,whether it's on your blog or on
(19:27):
if you have a podcast or ifyou're doing a lot of podcasts.
That's another great benefit,too is make sure that you are
out there and you're talkingabout all the things related to
your topic.
Because, as you're pitchingyourself and I will tell you
that, and again, when an authorcomes to us as the expert, as
(19:53):
the book publicists, when Ipitch an author to media, when I
pitch an author to media andyou don't have a website which I
got to tell you I am not goingto do first off, right, um, but
but if you pitch yourself tomedia and they look and you
don't have a website and youdon't really have a social media
(20:15):
presence, I mean, unless you,you know, or some famous person
that came back from the dead orsomething like I.
Just they're not.
You know what I mean.
They're not going to give youthe time of day, unfortunately
and I hate to sound so cut anddry, but it really is.
I mean, it's a very, it's a,you know, it can be, it can feel
(20:38):
like a very unfeeling kind ofworld when you're going out
there.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You're pitching yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, but I have an important message and this is
really going to help people, andpeople are.
It matters to the readersbecause of all of these things.
And you may have your pitchdown, Pat, but if you're not
vocal somewhere, like if you'renot out there and you're not
talking about this message, youcan have the best pitch in the
world and it's not going tomatter.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Exactly, and that's not just us being.
I appreciate that you said that, penny, because that's just us
being honest with you.
You know we're not trying toget anybody down by.
If you're going, oh well,that's working against me right
now.
Oh, I haven't done that yet.
We're not trying to bum you out.
We really want to set you upfor success and we see a lot of
authors spend a lot of moneydoing things out of order or
(21:26):
before their brand.
Your platform is reallyprepared to support your goals
and yeah, and it's a great wayto blow through a ton of
marketing investment withoutvery little return, no responses
, and you're wondering.
That's when we get authorscoming to us and going.
Should I give up?
And it's like no, let's, let'stalk about this and figure out
(21:47):
what's been done and what hasn'tand see where we can help you
fill in some gaps here.
You know we do a lot of that.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Right, exactly, and I think the other thing to
remember part of the reason whywe're being so I hope we're not
sounding critical because it'snot our intention.
Sometimes you don't get asecond run at media and I
caution authors about this allthe time Like if you get put in
a bucket by a producer thatyou're always pitching and
(22:17):
there's no angle, there's noplatform, there's nothing that
they can really sink their teethinto and there's no angle,
there's no platform, there'snothing that they can really
sink their teeth into.
It's really going to get hard.
It's really going to be hard.
I mean, you essentiallyundermine yourself with that.
So one of the things if anauthor comes to me and they say
you know, I really want to donational media and Amy is
actually probably way better offthis than I am Because I really
(22:37):
hate even though I know I soundlike I'm just crushing dreams
all over the place like I hategetting on the phone with an
author and telling them no,that's not me.
Yeah, I really Amy knows me sowell Like I hate getting on the
phone, like telling them no, anda lot of times Amy and I will
have this conversation and I'llsay well, you know, as we're
putting together this proposal.
Well, this author really wantedX, y, z, and she will very
(23:02):
smartly come back to me and say,okay, well, we can give them X,
but Y and Z are going to haveto wait.
And here are the five reasonswhy, and the majority of time
that comes down to the thingsthat we've talked about up to
this point because we know thatif they're not ready, the media
is not going to want them andthey're going to shoot their
shot.
(23:22):
You know, what I mean Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
What?
No, I agree with you 100%, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Do you want to take the next one?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, definitely so, and we've talked about this on
other shows too being current inyour knowledge.
Yes, this is a big one, and Ilike to use the term time
capsule because and Penny's aperfect example because she
writes about Amazon.
She writes in.
Amazon is constantly changing,so Penny really has.
I mean, if you could pick atopic that would be one of the
(23:57):
most challenging to stay on topof year after year, I think you
would win, penny.
Thank you, yes, yes, truly.
You know the amount of revisionsyou have to do for your Amazon
books is incredible, justbecause to keep up with that
company and everything that it'sconstantly doing and changing.
And you know it's challenging,but it really it matters to
(24:22):
anybody.
Definitely, writing nonfictionthis one doesn't apply to
fiction quite so much, but we'vedone episodes on.
You know your backlist andimproving.
You know books that you'vereleased previously, so check
those out.
But for nonfiction, youdefinitely want to be current in
what's going on, and that's ahuge part of the pitching too.
A lot of this, you know, playsoff of each other, but when
you're pitching somebody, likewe've said already, you don't
(24:44):
want to just pitch.
This is what my book is about.
I know you're going to love it.
You know you really need tomake sure you're tying into
what's going on in the world,what's going on in your industry
, what consumers are concernedwith, what problems they're
having, and so it's reallyimportant to stay current in
(25:08):
what's being talked about.
It's easy to get wrapped up intowhat your book is solely about,
but a lot of times you, as theperson with the ideas, you are
the one opening the doors to getcoverage for your book.
And a lot of times, penny, wesee that that will happen kind
of not really with the book inmind.
Initially, we'll say our clientcan speak to X, y and Z, and
this is how they're different,and things like that, and that's
actually what gets them thecoverage, which then gives them
(25:29):
an opportunity to talk abouttheir book, that they wrote a
book.
You can find more of this in mybook, that kind of thing, but
so often the book isn't actuallywhat secures the interest in
the first place, right?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
The book generally is not theleader in the conversation.
The book is the reason for theconversation, potentially, but
you are the leader in theconversation, I think, staying
current.
I realize that everything thatwe're talking about is a
full-time job, but stayingcurrent is really, really
(26:05):
important, and it's going to beeasier to stay current if you're
doing lots of as I first talkedabout, lots of local media,
because that's also, I mean, thesame rules apply to local, like
they.
Really.
They want somebody that's goingto be right for their audience
and you know, et cetera.
They also want you to becurrent.
(26:27):
They don't want a guest to beon their sighting statistics
that are five years old, right,right, exactly that you know.
When it comes to social media,you don't have to be everywhere,
just everywhere.
That matters, even if thatmeans just being on one platform
, right.
And then sharing information,sharing knowledge and
(26:50):
information on that platform isgoing to be really important and
it's not something you don'thave to do it every single day,
but you definitely want to finda routine that is consistent and
the information that you shareon social media can be, I mean,
you know, amy, and I, I mean we.
I led this conversation bytalking about how much content
that we create and sometimesthat gets to be a little bit
(27:12):
overwhelming.
So we recycle a lot of stuffthat we do, recycle a lot of
stuff that we do, and part ofthat is like taking you know
podcast content and thenexcerpting for you know when we
run the shows on Friday on theblog and then posting that to
(27:34):
social.
So there's no reason that youhave to continually recreate the
wheel, but figure out a trackand you can use that content in
all different places.
You can use it in you know, inyour socials and that kind of
thing.
So you're not having to createlike if you're thinking and like
, oh my gosh, but I need to havetime to write the book, great,
(27:56):
you don't necessarily have tocreate new content for all these
different portals all the time.
You can create one piece ofcontent and reuse it all the
time.
The other thing that I think isworth noting here if you
sometimes we get really we gettoo close to our own message Get
a chat GPT account, get a paidaccount.
I am not a spokesperson for chatGPT.
(28:16):
I just want to mention that Iam not a spokesperson for
ChatGPT.
I just want to mention thatMake sure that you put yourself
in a locked system, meaning thatthere's a toggle in chat in the
settings, where you can chooseto share everything with
everybody and that's essentiallyhow chat learns or you can lock
it.
Put yourself in a locked systemand upload your book to ChatGPT
(28:37):
your entire book and ask it fortalking points, ask it for
relevant topics.
Really, ask this AI to dig intoyour book.
Sometimes I've done it and eventhough I update, you know I
talk about Amazon.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I teach about Amazon, amy, and I do lots of Amazon
work.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I wish I had a dime, for every time I've said
amazoncom.
I would be richer than Bezosliterally At the same time.
Sometimes it's really hard tocome up with your own content
and chat, and the reason Imentioned is sitting in a locked
system is that way.
You don't feel like you'reuploading your book and chat's
just going to use it, for youknow 50 other people who have
(29:16):
access to the same system.
Put it in a locked system andthat way you can have access to
a same system.
Put it in a locked system andthat way you can have access to
a portal that will help you.
It's like your second brain,and I cannot tell you how much
this has really helped metremendously to come up with new
topics.
And we do have the podcast too.
We're just like you know howare we going to use this.
(29:37):
So that's just an idea and thatis going to be a way to help
you get you know.
Come up with blog content,social media content, if you
feel like you're just, you don'tknow what else to talk about.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yes, absolutely, and I think that's one thing.
As much as we and we've doneshows on how to get around not
using social media.
But I would say this is onekind of.
If you really want big media,it's really hard to do ways
around it for a lot of othergoals, but if one of your goals
(30:14):
is big media, they don't justwant to see that you signed up
for an account.
They want to see that you'reusing it.
They want you know and again,this isn't don't go out and buy
10,000 followers with some botsand stuff like that.
It's not about that.
It's about what content you'reputting out there.
Like Penny was saying, Showcaseyour area of expertise,
Showcase your unique point ofview, the followers and the
(30:37):
engagement and stuff like that.
If you're putting out goodcontent, that can grow
organically.
So don't stress about thefollower numbers as much as just
showing that you're putting inthe effort and that you're
putting out quality content thatfurther highlights what you
have to offer.
That is really should be thefocus, not on the big numbers
and things like that.
That's not really why we'reencouraging authors to get
(30:58):
involved on social.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Right, right, exactly Right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Let's see what's the next one.
Oh, yes, because this isanother one where I know I upset
people.
Like Penny said, I amdefinitely the bad guy for a lot
of this, but I do try to letauthors know when they reach out
to us that these are just.
We want the best for you.
It's tough love, but it reallyis.
We want the best for you.
(31:24):
The next one is having a solidwebsite that's clean, it's
modern, it's informative,doesn't have to be over the top
complicated, it doesn't have tobe a bunch of different pages
Honestly, even a one-pager thathas the basics and that just
shows that you're putting in theeffort to create a home base
for your brand and your platformand for consumers to get a hold
(31:44):
of you and learn more about you.
That's what matters.
It's just, it really is one ofthose things that shows that
you're taking yourself seriouslyand, in turn, the people that
you're pitching yourself to willtake you more seriously as well
.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, and it doesn't have
to be a complicated website, asAmy mentioned.
Just something.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, honestly, sometimes, when they get too
complicated, it's like I havethe opposite reaction, you know,
yeah yeah, yeah, Just give methe good stuff, Right, right,
right, right, yeah, don't giveme too many options.
Yeah, and I think that you know, obviously it goes without
saying.
So your Amazon retail page orretail pages, depending on how
(32:27):
many books that you have out youwant to make sure that those
are really tightened up, and Iwould say we've done enough
shows on this.
We don't have to spend a lot oftime on it.
If you want it, if you are newto the show and you want to dig
into more Amazon stuff, we havea ton of content, so we won't
spend a lot of time on this.
But I think that you want tomake I mean, I don't think I
(32:54):
know you want to make a goodfirst impression.
You don't want to send peopleto a sloppy Amazon page.
The other reason is not just toimpress the producer or the
writer or whatever, or the host.
You want to make sure thatyou're impressing the reader and
anybody, like if you're luckyenough to land the gig, and
sending people to your Amazonpage that doesn't convert is
(33:14):
really not going to do you anygood.
So that's really important, notjust for your resume, but also,
you know later when you'rethinking positive when you get
the interview.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah, again, and a lot of this.
Like we've said many times,it's the more seriously you take
yourself, the more seriouslythey'll take you.
So everything that we'vementioned so far is, like Penny
said, it's a part of your resumeand you wouldn't leave
something big and impressive offof your resume if you were
applying for a new job.
Same thing Everything that youshould have for your platform is
(33:47):
a part of your author resume.
So don't try to skirt aroundthat and think that they won't
notice or it's really not big ofa deal, or I'll deal with that
later, after I've made a bunchof money off my book.
I think that would be.
That's another one that youwant to avoid that pitfall, to
do it at the front end.
And I know, Penny I almostthink we don't talk about that
enough how front loaded successas an author is.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, we really don't talk about it a lot and I have
this conversation with authorson the phone a lot of the times
is publishing is hugely frontloaded and it doesn't
necessarily mean that it gets.
I mean it does getincrementally easier as you
release books, but publishing abook is very much, is very much
(34:32):
a front-loaded endeavor, notjust monetarily but also in your
sweat equity.
Um, you really really have tobe willing to put and you know
it's interesting, I didn't tellyou this on a Saturday.
I got I love my little likeit's confession time everyone.
I I love my my Reddit app.
(34:53):
I love my little like it'sconfession time everyone.
I love my Reddit app.
I love Reddit actually, and alot of people kind of poo-poo
Reddit.
But I mean, amy and I have doneit.
There's a lot of deep diveresearch for things that we
found on Reddit and I'm in apublishing.
I don't know if I'm still in itNow.
I may have gotten kicked out orsomething, I don't know but so
(35:13):
this one publishing thread thisauthor posted I've already spent
I don't know whatever they saidit was like 200 bucks or
something on their book coverand now I'm finding that it's
going to cost, you know upwardsof $700 or so to get the book
edited and is there any way thatI can avoid getting my book
(35:34):
edited?
And I went to town on that post.
It was nice, but I was like youare really in the wrong
industry if you want to shortcut.
There are shortcuts and we talkabout we've actually talked.
We actually I think we did ashow on shortcuts.
But there are shortcuts and wetalk about we've actually talked
.
We'd actually, I think we did ashow on shortcuts.
But there are shortcuts thatyou can take that you know
(35:59):
people aren't, you know thereaders aren't necessarily going
to notice right, or things thatyou can cut out or ways to do
things easier, cause I thinkit's kind of human nature to
want to kind of do everythingthe hard way.
But your book presentation, yourediting, and I mean I just went
to town on this Reddit post andyou know what's funny is that
like I get notifications whensomebody is like giving you the
(36:21):
thumbs up on a post or something.
I got nothing from that.
Like I'm sorry to be killingthis party.
It was the self-publishingtrack on Reddit, I'm sure, a bit
like I said, I'm sure somebodykicked me out of the group at
this point.
But I was like I come herespeaking the truth, y'all have
to do the work.
(36:41):
And then some other guy was likewhy don't you just upload your
manuscript to chat TPT and havechat TPT edited?
And just out of curiosity I'mlike I'm not going to cut out
hiring a real editor ever, but Idecided to upload the formula
workbook to chat to BT and haveit do at see what it come up
with with editing.
It was a frigging nightmare.
He doesn't know editing fromapples.
I mean, I'm sorry, you knowwhat I mean.
(37:02):
So anyway, yeah, I don't knowwhere, why I went off on that
tangent, but I just felt like Ihad to say that apparently I'm
getting kicked off of Reddit nowfor being honest.
But I think that it you know,everything is your resume.
We talk about this all the time.
Absolutely Everything is yourresume.
If you wouldn't send it to apotential employer, don't
(37:25):
present it to your reader or,and certainly don't present it
to the media, right?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Right, exactly.
Highlight what you're proud of,don't highlight what what
you're proud of, don't highlightwhat you're not proud of.
Put it on your to-do list towork on.
You know Exactly.
And I think the next one too isone that and we get it.
It's.
It's sometimes challenging, youknow marketing is, it's a skill
and it's and it takes aschedule and we realize that's
(37:51):
hard to add to everything elsegoing on in your life 100%, but
you want to make sure you'reconsistently promoting and
sharing your wins and anycoverage you get.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You know this is really important because if
anything good that happens, youknow we encourage you to find
how can you capitalize on thatin like three different ways.
You know how do you make themost out of every single win and
you want to milk it for allit's worth.
So this is why it's importantto have social media, a website,
(38:23):
because obviously those are twogo-tos that you want to post
coverage.
We've talked about this before,but you know, having a media
page on your website, definitelysharing that coverage on social
, when you're doing it on social, be sure you're tagging the
entities and individuals.
If they're on social, you wantto show them that and this
(38:43):
matters to other places too theywill see that you have shared
coverage and you've tagged.
I mean you're sending traffictheir way.
All of that matters.
That networking is critical.
So it's twofold.
So not only are you making surethat everything that you've
earned, everything good thathappens for you, you're making
sure as many people as possibleknow about it, but then, on top
(39:04):
of it, you're using thoseopportunities to do some further
networking with the kind ofindividuals that you could get
coverage for later, or you canuse that as part of your resume,
you know when you go to pitchthose next tier media showing
look, I got coverage here, I gotcoverage there.
Make it easy for people to seehow well you're doing.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Essentially, what I'm saying?
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So you definitely want to highlight all those
things we love when authors sendus.
I love it when clients send us.
I got this, I got that.
My interview is going to golive on this podcast on this
date and I sound like a brokenrecord, but every single time
and they may hear it from mefive or six times, but I always
remind them what they can dowith it.
Like we love that.
Congratulations.
(39:48):
That's amazing.
Have you done X, y and Z withit yet?
You know, yeah, because alwayslike, make that your goal,
anything good that happens.
Find three, at least threeother ways at minimum that you
can get that win out there infront of more people and make a
big deal about it.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, and you know, I think it's to some and I
understand that for some authorsthat's a bit, you know, like,
oh well, I don't want to boast,I don't want to brag, and we're
both here to tell you.
You just brag your little heartout Because you, whenever you
get any kind of a hit and wetell so, we did a.
We had one of our, we have aninfluencer on the team and we
(40:28):
had asked her to do a tour forthe podcast.
We have asked her to do a tourfor the podcast and every single
person, every single influencerwho reviewed and they didn't so
much review the podcast as theyshared it, Um, I mean, I think
some of them posted a review,like we listened and we loved it
, whatever, but um, they are uh,I went in and thanked every
(40:51):
single one of them because Ithink it's really important,
unless you're going to be aone-hit wonder, share your wins,
post them in your media room onyour website, make sure that
you have one central place sothat when you're pitching media,
you can send them the link andyou can see where else they have
been featured.
It's also very impressive, likewhen I'm talking to an author
(41:11):
and I see all the places they'vebeen featured.
It's like, oh, this is reallygreat.
But the other thing is you wantto make sure and thank
everybody who you know.
If you've been on a podcast,send them a thank you, note
Influencers sharing and thenalso share and tag them, as Amy
said, because that's a great,great, great way to build
relationships.
And, honestly, you know, yes,it's about writing a good book,
(41:37):
it's about all the things thatwe talk about on the show, but
it's also very, very much aboutrelationships and you really you
don't want to burn any bridgeswith people by not just reaching
out to them or sharing, sharingtheir, sharing their posts to
your group.
It's just, it's a really,really nice thing to do, even if
you say, yeah, but, penny, Idon't have a lot of followers,
it doesn't really matter.
You know what I mean.
It's the effort that matters.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
So yes, yes, please.
It's showing that you'refollowing through and taking
yourself seriously, even ifyou're just shouting to a room
of 10 people.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah , exactly, Because the other
thing to consider random rightand ran it or bought the book,
(42:39):
didn't even email the author toask for a review copy, which she
very easily could have, andraved about the book on her blog
.
And this right, I mean theconnections, and Amy and I could
do a whole entire show on thistopic.
Sometimes the connections makeno sense and this author even
(43:00):
told me she was like I wouldhave never expected this.
And those are the best kind ofwins, right, but you only get
there if you're doing all theright things.
So hopefully this show has beenhelpful and not discouraging
like I was on Reddit the otherday oh my gosh, I get myself
into so much trouble sometimes.
(43:22):
But we appreciate you listening.
Oh, and very excited.
I meant to lead the show withthis and I totally forgot.
But the Amazon Author FormulaWorkbook is done.
It's in final interior design,and by final I mean really final
, final, and maybe even by thetime this show hits, it'll be up
for pre-order.
If it is, we will definitelyadd that to the show notes so
(43:44):
y'all can be first to grab yourcopy.
I'm so excited to have anotherbook coming out this year.
I want to thank you all so muchfor listening.
We love show ideas.
We love your show feedback, sohow to get in touch with us is
in the show notes and, if youhaven't, if this is your first
listen, thank you, we hope youhave.
We hope we haven't completelydiscouraged you from all things
(44:06):
book marketing.
But be sure to subscribe to theshow so that you get notified
every time there's an episodewhich we drop every Friday.
Thank you so much for listening.
Bye-bye.
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