December 5, 2025 • 41 mins
Tired of shouting into the void with a book you believe in? We unpack a simple, proven path to clarity that makes every marketing move easier and cheaper: find your shelf, define your reader, and deliver the payoff your genre promises. Penny Sansevieri and Amy Cornell pull back the curtain on what actually drives sales velocity for authors—clear positioning, focused targeting, and small, high-impact pivots that align your book with how readers shop.
We start by grounding your work with “shelf neighbors,” those three to five titles your ideal readers already love. From there, we build a one-sentence reader statement that communicates value at a glance and respects genre expectations. You’ll hear how a smart subgenre pivot turned a stalled romance into a winner, why “my book is for everyone” is the most expensive mistake in publishing, and how to turn your unique elements into crisp marketing hooks that get clicks, not shrugs.
For nonfiction writers, we dig into articulating outcome-driven benefits that media and influencers can immediately pass on to their audiences. For fiction authors, we show how to pair familiarity with freshness—a recognizable promise with a distinct twist—using comps that do the heavy lifting on retail pages, ads, and pitches. Throughout, we emphasize that marketing can sharpen and amplify, but it can’t invent a market where none exists. That’s liberating: focus on fit first, then flourish with confident messaging, right-sized keywords, and cover cues that signal the right story to the right people.
Ready to stop guessing and start gaining traction? Listen now, craft your one-sentence reader statement, and text us your top targeting question. If this episode helps you refocus your book’s positioning, share it with an author friend, subscribe for more practical strategies, and leave a quick review so we can reach more writers who need it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Hello and welcome back to the book marketing tips
and author success podcast.
This is Penny Sanseveri.
And Amy Cornell.
And happy day afterThanksgiving.
We all hope we hope that you allhad a really great holiday and
you're sitting around.
Um, if you're me, you're puttingup your tree because that's like
the first thing that I do.
(00:22):
And Thanksgiving, boom, theturkeys, the turkey's all in the
fridge, leftover turkeys in thefridge, tree goes up.
Um, but we hope that you had areally good, really good holiday
and you got a little bit of freetime.
And so we thought this show,unless of course you're at Black
Friday sales, but we thoughtthis show might be really
helpful because um even with allof the information out there, I
(00:49):
realized that, and Amy and Ihave many conversations about
this, sometimes figuring out whoyour reader is is still pretty
challenging, right?
So we thought that we would kindof break this show down in terms
of um how to find your readerand also, you know, um how to
(01:12):
target them a little bit better.
Because when you have a better,when you when you're when you're
more focused on exactly who yourreader is, actually targeting
comes easier and everything, allof your marketing is easier and
also cheaper because you're notspending a lot of time marketing
to the wrong people.
But first, before we dive intothe show, I wanted to mention uh
(01:32):
text us your ideas, yourthoughts, your show feedback,
all the other stuff.
We have a texting line set upand it's crazy popular.
So get on the train.
Text the word podcast to888-402-8940.
We would love your showfeedback, uh, show ideas, all
the things.
We love hearing from y'alldirectly through that, um,
(01:54):
through our new podcast line.
Amy, um we're okay.
So I'm just gonna put you on thespot here for a second.
What do you?
I mean, when an author comes toyou, because you're like our
first line when somebody comesinto the into the company
inquiring about services, andsomebody doesn't really know
(02:15):
their market, like, and maybethey haven't really told you,
like they haven't said, well,I'm not really sure why I wrote
this before.
Is there some kind of a telltalesign that you spot when somebody
sends you an email?
If that does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
If yeah, yeah.
Like, do I have a sense ofwhether who they wrote it for?
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Yeah.
I mean, do you have a sense ofwhether they actually have a
defined market?
I mean, is it something thatshows up, is it very apparent
when somebody contacts you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Well, and yeah, that's interesting.
It it's definitely differentbetween published versus not
published, because you know, Ithink we've talked about this a
lot in different shows too, thateverything is your brand and
everything should reflect whoyou're writing for.
So if the book's already out,you know, obviously I look at
the cover, I look at, you know,read the description.
There's so many other thingsthat kind of, and maybe not
(03:07):
everything is spot on, and itmay not be reflecting who the
author really wants to target,but either way, your book is
already saying something,whether you want it to or not,
right?
Yeah, for sure.
But if the book isn't publishedyet, then it's really
interesting.
It it kind of, yes, there areways to tell that they're unsure
based on what they focus on whenthey when they're introducing us
(03:30):
to their book.
And and it's and it's notnecessarily a bad thing.
There are ways to figure out whoyou wrote for, even if you
didn't have a really clear ideaat the beginning.
There are ways to, you know,figure it out, and that's what
we're here for.
But yeah, I think it's in howit's presented.
You know, if it's presented in away that is very personal and
emotional and maybe rooted insomething that happened earlier
(03:52):
in their life, and these are allwonderful, beautiful
motivations, but it doesn'tactually focus on who the reader
is.
So I think it's really more ofokay, so when they're explaining
the book to us when they firstcontact us, if there's nothing
rooted in any sort of, you know,genre tropes or topic
(04:12):
appropriate um pain points andthings like that that are very
much kind of a solidified,concrete, yes, they know who
they wrote for, they had avision for this from the get-go.
You kind of have to figure thatthis is going to be a process
that we'll go through with themto kind of figure this out so we
could message everythingappropriately, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (04:33):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think that it's a um themyth is that if I wrote a book,
someone out there will want it.
Right.
Right.
And that's that's a big myth.
The thing about it is, though,too.
So before we go too far down therabbit hole, I think it's also
worth mentioning that um we docome across authors who
(04:53):
literally have no market fortheir book.
Like there's literally no readeraudience, which which sounds
devastating, but it's notcommon.
So what we hope to do with thisshow is literally maybe help you
um pivot to figure out exactlywhere you're because we have had
(05:15):
authors, so I so the here's anexample.
So I worked with an author, weworked with an author, and she
had her romance novel in eroticromance, and it was not an
erotic romance novel.
So when we worked with her, wepivoted the book to contemporary
(05:35):
romance, and the book did somuch better.
So sometimes it's literally justa pivot.
But one of the things, so Amyand I were, we were in the green
room, we were sort of talkingabout talking through the notes
of the podcast, and the termreverse engineering came up,
right?
So when I think about reverseengineering, I think about
you're literally reverseengineering yourself into
(05:59):
success, right?
So you want to figure out likehow something was made.
And so you, and a lot of things,a lot of tools that we use were
all what all went through thereverse engineer process.
But a lot of times what happenswhen authors reverse engineer
their book is they create amashup of, let's say, romance,
sci-fi thriller, fantasy, maybethrowing a little bit of poetry
(06:21):
in there or something, I don'tknow.
And then they try to reverseengineer the market for this
multi-genre book, which that'swhere we start to get into
problems.
And in terms of nonfiction, sosharing a personal experience is
(06:44):
great.
If you've been through it, youknow, like what worked for me
kind of thing, and wanting toput that in the book, because I
know that we and we've workedwith authors who are very, very
passionate about stuff.
I went through whatever it was,right?
And I want to write thisnonfiction book to help other
people.
But writing the book beforechecking to see if there are
(07:06):
readers that are activelylooking for that kind of content
is a mistake because in manycases, what you can do is you
can literally just maybe flipthe script a little bit.
So, okay, so you take yourexperience, but you put it in a
bigger bucket of something thatreaders are actually looking
for, and then you createsomething that actually works.
I mean, does that make sense,Amy?
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that the fiction examplewas really great because that I
mean, and I think that happens alot, Penny, with what ends up
going and it's a huge market,which is challenging, but I
think we see that a lot withbooks that end up as literary
fiction because they've gotessence of quite a few different
(07:49):
things, but not enough to fitinto a very specific genre
fiction bucket, if that makessense.
And I think that gets reallychallenging.
I mean, we've worked for withsome wonderful books with
beautiful covers, and it justtakes it's a longer runway, you
know, to use, you know, yourexample, that sometimes if you
really don't exactly fit whatthe market, as you said, is
(08:12):
actively looking for, it takes alittle while to find your
people.
And I think that's something toremember too, that the more
specific you are about yourmarket, the quicker you can
potentially build momentumbecause you know you have what
those people are looking for,you deliver it in a great
package, boom, you're good.
You know?
So if it's not as spot on asthat, it doesn't mean you can't
(08:35):
still find your people.
But a lot, you know, a lot ofwhat we talk about is being
realistic.
It also means being realisticabout the kind of marketing
strategies you need to use andhow long it's realistically
going to take to find thosepeople and make a good
impression on them.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
Well, and the other piece of it too, and and and I'm
so thrilled that I get to saythis because I think it's
something that is worthrepeating throughout the show.
A marketing company, marketingteam, can we can refine and we
can sharpen and we can amplify,but we cannot invent a market
where none exists.
And that's whether you hire amarketing firm or not, that is
(09:12):
something that you should, Imean, mount that, put that on
your wall.
Like because that is somethingthat I think is really um that's
really challenging, is that whenauthors show up to the
marketplace with a book that hasno clear shelf space, um it
markets just cannot be pulledout of thin air.
(09:32):
So let's so now that we've kindof expanded on the problem and
unpacked the problem, Amy, doyou want to take the first part
of how to how to sort of how tobetter identify your market?
Because it's really, I know thissounds very kind of heady, it's
like, oh wow, what a nice dayafter Thanksgiving podcast, but
it's actually much easier thanthan you might think.
SPEAKER_00 (09:52):
Yeah, we've really broken this down into some
pretty simple steps.
And it's actually a greatexercise that, and because what
you're going to uncover doingall of this is going to
influence your marketing longterm too.
So this is not just a one timebecause Penny and Amy said you
have to do this homework.
This is insight that you'regoing to be able to use over and
over and over again.
(10:13):
So it's it's that important, butthat simple.
So identify your shelfneighbors.
So you could go to a bookstorephysically, which is kind of
fun.
Like treat yourself, maybe notthis weekend, if you're actually
listening to this when it comesout, because bless you for going
out in that mess.
You can also do this from theprivacy of your home.
You can go on Amazon, but findthree to five books that are
(10:34):
most like yours, you know,genre, tone, audience
positioning.
I love looking at bestsellerlists, not because not, I mean,
yes, it's aspirational, sure,but it's such a great way to see
what people are buying.
You know, whether you like it ornot, that's what people are
gravitating towards and that'swhat they're purchasing.
You know, so I think that'sanother big piece of this too,
(10:54):
Penny, is that like you maythink one thing or you may want
people to want your book, butthe reality is they're out there
shopping, they're makingdecisions and being objective to
some degree and saying, okay,what I think doesn't actually
matter all that much, what doesmatter is how people are
shopping and the books they'regravitating towards.
And that's the train I want toget on.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Right, right, exactly.
I think I love the shelves, I Ilove the bookstore shelf space.
And I think is actually, I mean,if you live in your bio book
store, which is awesome, um, andyou have the opportunity to go
in and take a look and see whereyour book might be shelved.
I mean, listen, if your bookcan't be shelved in an obvious
(11:36):
place that exists, whetheronline or in in person, you're
lit, you're not going to be ableto find.
I mean, it impacts not just theshelf, you know, your virtual or
in-person shelf space, but italso impacts everything.
I mean, whether you're whenyou're doing Amazon ads.
But if you cannot, and if youcannot identify a one-sentence
(11:56):
reader statement, like my bookis for readers who love insert,
right?
And want like insert, a specificexperience or an outcome.
We did a show on elevatorpitches, I want to say a few
weeks ago, maybe it may havebeen a month ago, but go back to
that show and start to work onyour elevator pitch.
(12:19):
Because your elevator pitches,so your one sentence reader
statement and elevator pitch arekind of sort of the same thing.
You have to really be able todefine my reader wants, let's
say, my let's say, for example,my reader really wants a, so
we're in the holiday season now,right?
A cozy holiday small townromance.
(12:40):
Um, my book is for readers wholove a cozy holiday, small town
romance, who want to feel goodwith a happy, happy ever after,
right?
That is exactly who your readeris.
If your book doesn't fit that.
So let's say, for example, youdon't give them a happily ever
after, for example, right?
That's a big no-no in romance,by the way.
(13:02):
We had an author one time, thisa couple of years ago, and she's
like, Yeah, so I film that bookin romance, but nobody really
ends up with each other.
And I'm like, um, that's aproblem.
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Right.
Exactly.
Genres, you know, and I knowI've cited romance a couple of
times, but regardless of thegenre, people have specific
expectations.
Even if you've written a book onpoetry or if you've written a
memoir, it doesn't matter.
People have expectations aboutthe outcome.
SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
Right.
And I think this is alsocombined with number one, with
identifying your shelfneighbors, really take that to
heart because you should also beable to say confidently that,
and I think this is a great likeheadspace to get into.
My reader already has thesebooks on their bookshelf.
unknown (13:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
You know what I mean?
And that's a really great way tofigure out where you belong and
determine if you've clearlydefined where you fit into the
market.
Because if your answer is like,well, there's no other books
like mine, it's like, well, youknow, A plus for creativity, but
it's going to be very hard toconvince readers that you have
(14:11):
something that they're lookingfor.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, so you really want tobe able to say, you know, my
readers already love theseauthors, or my readers already
have these books on their shelfbecause they're looking to solve
this problem or learn this.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
You know, and if you can do that, you're on the right
track.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that um, you want totake the next one, the the Yeah,
this is very cool.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Okay, so highlight what makes your book special.
So now that we've said like youneed to be like everybody else.
So, like we're back in middleschool, we all want to be the
same.
Now you have to work on whatmakes your book special because
there is a point to this.
So, three unique aspectsfiction, this could be your
setting, your protagonist'sunusual traits, your spin on a
genre trope for nonfiction, thisis a specific method you
(14:59):
developed, a perspective notcommonly addressed, or maybe a
very, you know, a problem thatyou are solving in a different
way.
Again, this is why knowing whatyour readers currently read and
what they've gravitated towardin the past, this is also draw
on that to determine what makesyou special.
But this, so what this does,it's like, okay, I've determined
(15:20):
this is where I belong.
But then again, you don't wantto get lost in the crowd.
So once you determine you have aplace there, then you need to
determine what makes you uniquebecause this becomes your
marketing hooks, how you pitchyourself, how you make yourself
stand out.
So I know you'll all you alreadylove books like these.
And this is why my book is goingto add to your experience in the
(15:41):
genre, or why my book is goingto change your perspective on
this topic, or why my book isgoing to finally solve that
problem you've been looking toanswer.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Well, and that's the thing that that is where, so
okay, so like as Amy said, youknow, back in middle school, we
all kind of fit in, we fit onthis, we fit on the same shelf.
But then there are thecharacteristics that that set
you apart from the other books,right?
Um, and these unique elementsare also something that you're
going to use in in all of yourin all of your copies.
(16:12):
So your your your description onyour Amazon retail page, your
website copy, in your pitching.
Um, and your book does have to,you you do have to tell the
reader how your book isdifferent.
I find this a problematic a lotof times for our nonfiction
authors.
So I will, when I get on thephone with a nonfiction author,
(16:33):
I will always say, All right, sotell me what your book's about.
And they tell me, and I'm like,okay, so how is your book
different from the 9,000 booksthat were published on the same
topic last month?
And I'm just throwing thatnumber out there, right?
And a lot of times they don'treally know.
And they're coming to amarketing firm to help them to
(16:56):
determine that, determine howtheir book is different, which
is fair, right?
And that's something that youand I both love to do.
Like we love giving books thattheir standout statement.
We love that.
But as authors out there doingyour thing and beating the
bushes and finding readers andeverything, you really have to
figure this out.
You know, you cannot lead with,because otherwise your book is
(17:19):
just gonna look just like everyother book on the bookshelf,
right?
Um so and then I think alongwith that, what's the what's the
reader's payoff?
And this is really, I'm tellingyou, as consumers, we buy for
emotional, intellectual, um foranything, right?
(17:44):
Not just because we like thepremise, right?
Not just because, well, look,there's a book on, you know, how
to do yoga, but there are fivebillion other books on there on
how to do yoga.
Or there's another book on, youknow, that's kind of a thriller.
Like I I listen to a lot ofthrillers, I listen to a lot of
audiobooks.
I'm really particular about thekind of thrillers that I listen
(18:07):
to when I'm on my hikes, right?
Um what is, you know, afterreading my book, a reader will
feel what or know what, right?
Um and every author has toreally build their particular,
(18:29):
you know, build their particularniche in terms of what where
their focus is.
And that's also part of yourbrand.
And you can go back to some ofour branding shows and and get
the, you know, get the deep diveon that if you have some time
this weekend too.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Right.
And that's so important, Penny.
Like you said, what are theygoing to get out of it?
Because if you're pitching yourbook to influencers, you know
what I mean, to the media,anything like that, that's
really important because, andwe've mentioned this in our
media shows before, but and it'sit sounds simple, but it's so
easy to forget that you andwhoever you are pitching are
(19:06):
trying to please the sameaudience.
They have a mission too.
They have a goal as well.
They are providing content, youknow what I mean, that is
designed to make those peoplehappy and have them coming back
for more.
So you really have to drill downinto that because that is their
goal as well.
They are trying to serve anaudience.
(19:26):
And the better you can alignwith that by saying this is what
they are going to get out of it,the better.
That that and that clicks withthem and they go, okay, that's
what I know my audience islooking for.
This person, this author,clearly understands that, and
that's what they're offering.
So I'm intrigued, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
Right, exactly.
And that's part of things.
So, so, like, for example, myreader's payoff when they when
somebody buys one of my books isthey are gonna have a very, you
know, it's it's my books arevery conversational.
It's like we're sitting acrossthe table from one another, just
talking about book marketing.
I'm not using complicatedjargon.
It's really just kind of laidout in a very easy to understand
(20:10):
fashion.
Not that my readers aren't allwildly intelligent, but let's
face it, when you're learning anew thing, you don't want
somebody throwing a bunch ofterminology at you that you then
have to spend time to go lookup, right?
Right.
So my my core focus of my booksis creating something that is
very palatable for readers thatthey can literally, you know,
(20:33):
that they not only that they canadapt and use, but they really
want to.
So it's also a littlemotivational, which is kind of
sort of my MO just in general.
But that's and you have tofigure out, and so that then
becomes kind of part of mybrand, but you have to figure
out what that is for you.
And if that changes with everysingle book, that's a problem.
Right.
You know what I mean?
(20:54):
That's that's then you may aswell be writing, you know, you
could still be writing in thesame genre, but if every single
book has a different payoff forthe reader, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
You know?
Um, so the next one, this I lovethis one.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
I know.
I I love this one too.
Define your core reader.
So again, these are all goingback to some of these are just
reiterating the importance ofdetermining who your reader is
and understanding who thatperson is from the jump because
it'll save you a lot of grief.
But defining your core readermeans writing down a mini
(21:32):
profile of your ideal reader,age, gender, lifestyle, like
favorite books, hobbies, on andon and on.
And you're probably thinking,well, that sounds like a lot of
work, but stick with me herebecause it can actually be
really fun.
But again, we said a lot of thisis going to pay off long term.
(21:52):
So by defining your core readerand writing down a mini profile,
you are also giving yourselfideas for how to connect with
them on different levels.
So not just selling your book,but making sure they understand
that you know what they'relooking for, you understand
them.
This is this is absolutelyimperative if you plan on being
(22:12):
on social media.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
You know, and it's also super, super helpful if you
are have if you have anewsletter.
You know, you want to know whatthese people are interested in
above and beyond your bookbecause you can't make a brand
solely out of just sellingsomething.
Buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buymy stuff.
You become white noise after awhile.
So you really have to offer morethat says, I see you, I
(22:37):
understand what you're lookingfor.
I want to be that person thatyou can go to for all sorts of
different kinds of content.
Not just, yes, I know, you know,I know you want me to buy your
book.
I get it.
You know, you really want tosee.
Think of who you follow online.
Right.
You know, like it's not justbecause you buy stuff from them,
(22:57):
right?
There's so many other reasons wefollow people for their content
or follow certain channels orwatch certain shows or read
certain magazines.
You know what I mean?
It's because you feel seen.
SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
Right, exactly.
And the ideal reader, weactually have a reader profile
and that we've had for years.
We've updated it.
We just actually updated itagain this year.
So you could get our readerprofile um and actually, you
know what?
I'll make a note to put thatalso in the show notes.
Because it is a great way.
And and I will tell you so alittle bit of backstory here.
(23:28):
The reader profile that we havewas actually born out of um the
consumer profile that a friendof mine who worked for IBM back
in the day, like a billion yearsago when computers first sort of
hit the market, which apparentlyis the Stone Age.
Um, and IBM used to actuallyput, so in their T in their
meetings, in their salesmeetings, they would literally
(23:49):
spend so much time defining onwho, defining their ideal
consumer.
And they would go into the mostintricate detail.
And part of the reason for thatwas obviously computers were new
at the time, but part of thereason for that is that the more
focus that you can get on who'sactually buying your books,
slash in IBM's case, product,the the fewer mistakes that
(24:11):
you're gonna make, the more thatyour brand will look um
cohesive, right?
The more that you will findlanguage that really appeals to
your market, which is part ofthe reason why the ideal reader
um deep dive, and I actually putit in one of my books too the
ideal reader deep dive is ittakes a little bit of time, it
(24:34):
sounds like super unsexy to do,bottom of your to-do list.
Like I get it, but it willreally, really benefit you.
And it might also spark someideas for your social media and
other things that you could bedoing to try and pull in more
readers.
Um, so the next one, the toobroad trap.
This one, and this has been kindof like a thing in the industry
for years, where authors say, mybook is really for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
So I hate that so much.
Sorry.
I know, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
And everybody, you know, if you're looking, so you
know, everybody is really it'san expensive target.
Let me just put it that way.
Right.
Right.
If you're targeting everybody,you're really targeting
essentially no one.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
Right.
We have very oh, go ahead,Penny, sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
No, um, no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
I was just gonna say, I we had a perfect example
of this, a current client, andit was a great conversation, and
she happens to write for uhyounger people, but on Amazon
her age range was six tosixteen.
You know, and I I wrote her andI just said, and she was very
receptive and she was like,Thank you for catching that.
(25:45):
I absolutely agree.
This is my butt you know, Isaid, somebody with a
six-year-old is not going to buysomething that is presented as
appropriate for a 16-year-oldand vice versa.
Yeah.
You know, and that's just a verylike straightforward example,
but for what it's worth, itreally does, those things
matter.
You know, you are not going tosell to more parents by saying
(26:06):
it's great for a six-year-oldall the way up to a 16-year-old,
because there is no parent inthe world that is going to agree
with you.
And they will and they will moveon.
unknown (26:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
Right, exactly.
And you know, too broad is a umnot only is it an expensive
target, uh it's a very expensiveway to market your book, but it
also feels, you know, we in thisin this era where we get, I
forget now what the number is.
I really wanted to commit it tomemory, but of course there's so
much other stuff going on.
(26:36):
We get like thousands of adsevery single day targeting us.
If the ad doesn't feel personalanymore, like if your pitch
doesn't feel personal, it'sactually kind of insulting,
right?
Like you really should stopwasting my time, kind of a
(26:56):
thing.
Um and we, you know, you do seethis like in spam a lot, of
course, like emails like, oh, Ibet you'd like like we get this
a lot.
We I bet you'd like a mailinglist of tire factories around
the United States.
I'm like, really?
Like what?
You know, uh when you get toounfocused and too broad in your
(27:19):
um in your audience, nothingelse seems, nothing else really
works, right?
Um and and that's where you haveto, you know, really kind of
whittle.
This is something, again, Amyand I both love to do when we
get on the phone with authorswho start the conversation with,
this book is really foreverybody.
(27:39):
It's like, I don't think that'sa really true statement.
Let's get some clarification andyou know, asking them some
questions.
Clarity sells better than tryingto sell something that's too
universal, like the exampleswith the ads that aren't quite
right or the crazy spam emailsthat you get that you're like, I
(28:00):
don't understand why you wouldeven target me.
It's insulting.
Narrowing is not only powerful,and you know, a lot of times
authors, and I just want to,sorry, I want to stop by saying
a lot of times the reason thatauthors go broad is because they
feel the pressure to go broad inorder to pull in more sales.
It's a little bit of a fallacy.
(28:20):
Actually, it's it's a bigfallacy in the industry.
The broader I go, the bigger mysales will be, right?
It's kind of like casting yournet wide.
Like if I cast my net wideenough, I'm gonna pull in a
whole lot of fish.
Like replace the word fish withcash.
That literally never works whenyou're selling.
Right.
Right.
Narrowing is very powerful.
It the clarity will help you tobuild your audience so much
(28:44):
faster.
So if you're, you know, ifyou're listening to this and
you're like, you know, maybethat's the mistake that I made
with my first book or my secondbook or whatever, go back and
rework it.
Because unless your topic hasexpired, like unless you wrote
about something that now isn'treally kind of a thing anymore,
you probably there's probably anopportunity to have a second
(29:05):
chance at, you know, at yourmarket.
SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
Absolutely.
I love that idea.
I think that is something thatis, I mean, it it, yes, it's
work, but you put so much intoit the first time around.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Well, that's the thing.
And I know we have a show comingup on burnout, which I think the
burnout rate is much higher forauthors who aren't willing to go
down the reader rabbit hole.
Yeah.
Because you're spending a lot oftime throwing a lot of stuff,
you know, the spray and praytheory, or spraying spraying a
lot of stuff, throwing a lot ofstuff, excuse me, up against the
wall and hoping that some of itsticks.
(29:41):
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
And I like I like your mention about, you know,
narrowing is powerful becauseit's a lot easier to build when
you're getting positive resultsjust mentally, you know, let
alone your bottom line.
But it's so much easier to.
To build from something smallthat is working for you than it
(30:04):
is to try to figure out how toprune and pull back and where do
you do that?
And you know what I mean?
It's it's when you have a lotgoing on and nothing feels like
it's working, it's a lot morechallenging to figure out how to
come back from that than it isto focus on a narrow market, do
(30:24):
the right things, see, you know,results, see positive responses,
see those reviews populating,things like that.
Even when they're small wins,it's so much easier to go bigger
from there than it is to pullback from a mess.
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yeah, it really is.
And you know, people so aroundthis time of year, I'm like knee
deep in in or waist deep inHallmark.
So good Hallmark Christmasmovies.
And um, and you know, peoplepeople like to joke about them
like the plots are they haveseven different plots and they
basically recycle them throughall these movies, and yet people
still watch them.
And people by people, I mean me.
(31:02):
Hallmark has really found theirmarket, right?
When you think about it, theyhave narrowed their market.
They know what they are, theyknow what they're not.
They have tried in some withsome movies to like deviate off
of that.
Like, well, maybe not everymovie needs a happy ending.
Oh no, yes, it does.
That's why we're turning intoHallmark.
Every movie has to have a happyending, full stop.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Especially this time of year, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah.
When when when Hallmark hasdeviated off of that, they you
know, they're the the the movieor the show or whatever just
falls flat.
Yeah.
There is something really,really powerful in narrowing
your and narrowing your focus.
So I know we spent a lot of timeon that, but I just think it's
it's super important.
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
All right.
It does.
It saves you a lot of time andmoney.
Next point.
Yes, test with comparisons.
And this, I I really like thistoo, because I will say, Penny,
when we are helping our clientswith their Amazon retail pages
and using up all that amazingfree space that Amazon gives you
to connect with readers indifferent ways.
(32:06):
And it it I love it anyway, wedo this a lot.
So in use different versions ofit.
But so essentially, and thiskind of goes back to you know,
figuring out which books youalign with, figuring out which
other authors, you know, yourreaders read, what are they
gravitating toward?
But describe your book as it'sso you mention a book or an
(32:27):
author meets another book,popular book or author.
Again, what are your readerslooking for?
What are they already reading?
What do they already love?
But with, and then you insertwhat makes your book unique.
So we're kind of pullingtogether a few of the different
exercises that we've alreadytalked about, right?
So we talked about finding whereyour book fits on the shelf.
We've talked about understandingwhat your reader is already
(32:50):
reading, what do they alreadylike, you know, know what those
comps are, and then alsofiguring out what makes your
book unique.
So you're already basicallyconnecting the dots for the
reader.
And this is also super helpfulwhen you're pitching, because if
you're pitching an influencer orthe media, connecting the dots
for them matters as well.
They've got very little time tomake a decision about whether
(33:11):
they're interested or not.
And this is this can really helpthem.
So it's this author meets thisauthor, but here's my unique
twist.
And again, these are justshorthand signals that both talk
about the genre, the topic, andthe unique value.
And it puts it into a nicelittle compact package and it
makes it easier for readers toconnect the dots.
(33:33):
And again, we do this a lot forour retail page work and we do a
few different versions of thisbecause you don't want to do a
huge long list, right?
That sounds a little toodesperate.
It's these top five authors inThriller, all combined into one
plus here's my unique twist.
It's like, okay, clearly that'sthat's not focused, right?
But you can do this in a in acouple clever clever ways.
(33:55):
So if you have a politicalthriller, you know, maybe the
first example you focus more onthe thriller elements and who
those authors are.
And then in another example, youreally zero in on authors that
specifically focus on the on thepolitical thriller market.
You know what I mean?
So there are ways to includemultiple examples and be really
smart about it.
But again, you are telling thatreader that is likely already
(34:18):
reading those books or at leastrespects those authors in that
space, going, okay, like if ifyou think you could stand up
with them, I'm intrigued, right?
I I want to read more.
I may spend a little bit longeron your retail page.
SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
Right.
Yeah, that's a that's that'sexactly right.
So I think that just to kind ofum just to kind of bring this
home when so two things.
The more that you can articulatewhat makes your book unique, the
easier it is going to be for youto build your audience, find
(34:54):
your readers, etc.
And figuring out exactly whoyour reader is, even if you made
a mistake the first time, right?
Because it's not about you don'twant to be creating an audience.
It and it you want to connectwith the right existing
(35:16):
audience.
And that's not to say thatsometimes there are, you know,
we would not have, you know, 10years ago, just an example, even
five years ago, we weren'ttalking about Chat GPT as an
example.
That was a market that did notexist.
There were no books dedicated tothat market.
If you had written a book fiveyears ago, people would have
(35:37):
been like, Chat, what?
So markets do change.
But if you are writing for amarket that doesn't exist or an
audience that doesn't exist, andyou want to create it from
scratch, maybe there is a marketfor that, but it's gonna cost
you a whole lot of money to tryand create that.
(35:57):
And in most cases, it doesn'texist and it won't ever exist,
if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
Yes.
The confused mind doesn't buy,right, Penny?
You've said that before manytimes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
The confused mind doesn't buy.
Yeah, that's the other thingthough, too, is that you really
have to, you know, our mindskind of short circuit when we
are forced to figure out what abook is about, right?
When we are forced to figure outwhat the benefits are, you
really have to, you have to kindof put those, all that on a
(36:28):
platter and serve that up in areally nice way that it's very,
very clear to your reader.
Um, and this is where a lot oftimes authors writing their own
pitches go wrong.
And they, you know, they'll tellme all the time, they say, Well,
you know, I pitched all thesepeople and I never heard back.
And I said, Well, you're like,how did you pitch them?
So, well, I just sent it overand hope that they, you know,
(36:48):
and just let them figure it out.
Like, no, no, you really have todo the homework.
You have to, you have to beextremely clear on how this book
is going to benefit theiraudience, why it's perfect for
their audience, and you do thesame thing with your reader.
And I know it sounds like a lotof work, but I'm telling you
right now, you could be spendinga whole lot of money targeting,
(37:11):
just literally targeting thewrong people.
And we see this all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
100%.
Yeah.
You could waste a lot of yourown time and money, and you can
waste a lot of money expecting,you know, as Penny said in the
beginning of the episode,expecting a marketing firm to
magically create something thatdoesn't exist.
If those are your expectations,you're not going to be happy.
You know what I mean?
Right.
With the results.
You really need to give themsomething to work with or expect
(37:40):
to spend the time with yourteam, you know, through
coaching, consulting, whateverit is, to figure out, you know,
a lane that you're going to putyourself in that everybody's on
the same page, because it reallydoes matter.
SPEAKER_01 (37:52):
And if if you haven't listened to the episode
that we did on elevator pitches,definitely go back because I
think that layered on top ofthis episode will be will, you
know, will really be helpful.
If if you're feelingoverwhelmed, if you're listening
to this, you're like, oh, I'mjust so overwhelmed.
Sometimes really small changescan make a huge difference.
So if you've targeted, you know,if you feel like you're you've
(38:14):
your targeting is misaligned,your reader market is
misaligned, you may have toupdate the cover and you may
have to change up the bookdescription and change out the
keywords.
But if the book itself is solid,that may be the only thing you
need to do.
And I know, like, oh my gosh,changing the cover has already
sent half of the audience into atailspin.
It's really not that difficult.
(38:35):
We've done it in the years thatAmy and I have been working
together, we've done this a tonwith authors who are receptive.
And the benefits of making thesechanges, of you know, taking a
different direction with yourbook very much outweigh the
amount of work that you have todo.
And it always, it's always animprovement.
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
It's always an impact.
I can't think of one time pennywhere we've had an author that
is really like committed torestarting where it didn't work
out in their favor.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
You know.
Yeah.
And in some cases, just workedout like extremely well where
there's like, oh my gosh, Idon't know why I didn't do this
years ago.
So here's the thing.
It sounds a little bitoverwhelming.
What I'd like if you'relistening to this, you're like,
oh my gosh, I think this is myproblem.
Maybe it's not with your currentbook, maybe it's a past book,
whatever.
Maybe it's a book that's stillyet to come out.
Start with one step this week.
(39:28):
Start with the shelf, Amy talkedabout, right?
Figure out who your shelfneighbors are, right?
Or if you're so inclined, goback to the elevator pitch
episode and create your, youknow, your reader's, your
one-sentence reader statement.
Do one or those or both of thosethings.
And I'm telling you, I promiseyou, this will, this will change
(39:49):
the if you've been languishingand obscure, feel like you're
languishing in obscurity, thiswill change the trajectory of
everything for you.
So um, all right.
So we oh so Amy came up with Amyhas all the best ideas, I swear.
Amy came up with this really,really cool uh listener poll.
So we would love it if you wouldtake a moment.
(40:09):
There'll be a link along withthe reader profile.
There will be a link to thereader poll in the show notes.
So please, a listener poll,sorry, I said reader poll.
We really want your feedback.
We want your feedback on showlength, show ideas, all the
things.
That's probably the reason whywe have the podcast where we
have the the uh text text us tothe podcast.
We really want to this, we'redoing this for you guys.
(40:31):
So we really want to know whatyou want to see more of, what
you want to see less of, showlength, everything, because we
may be making some changes inthe new year.
And those changes are all goingto be informed by the feedback
that we get.
Uh, once again, the podcast lineis firing up.
People are giving us all kindsof ideas all the time, and we
love it.
Text the word podcast to888-402-8940.
(40:56):
We may put the reader poll inthe podcast, I'm not sure, but
definitely take a look at theshow notes because we'll have
the what's I said reader pollagain.
I'm so focused on readers.
What is wrong with me?
Oh, that's right.
I do book marketing.
Thank you.
I listen, we hope you we bothhope you had a really, really
great Thanksgiving.
We will see you next week.
We are gonna do um, we're wehave a couple of really, really
(41:17):
fun shows coming up.
So a reader favorite shows, ourfavorite shows.
Um, so we're gonna keep you verybusy through the holiday season.
Not that you wanted morehomework in December, but thank
you so much, and we'll see younext week.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome back to the book marketing tips
and author success podcast.
This is Penny Sanseveri.
And Amy Cornell.
And happy day afterThanksgiving.
We all hope we hope that you allhad a really great holiday and
you're sitting around.
Um, if you're me, you're puttingup your tree because that's like
the first thing that I do.
(00:22):
And Thanksgiving, boom, theturkeys, the turkey's all in the
fridge, leftover turkeys in thefridge, tree goes up.
Um, but we hope that you had areally good, really good holiday
and you got a little bit of freetime.
And so we thought this show,unless of course you're at Black
Friday sales, but we thoughtthis show might be really
helpful because um even with allof the information out there, I
(00:49):
realized that, and Amy and Ihave many conversations about
this, sometimes figuring out whoyour reader is is still pretty
challenging, right?
So we thought that we would kindof break this show down in terms
of um how to find your readerand also, you know, um how to
(01:12):
target them a little bit better.
Because when you have a better,when you when you're when you're
more focused on exactly who yourreader is, actually targeting
comes easier and everything, allof your marketing is easier and
also cheaper because you're notspending a lot of time marketing
to the wrong people.
But first, before we dive intothe show, I wanted to mention uh
(01:32):
text us your ideas, yourthoughts, your show feedback,
all the other stuff.
We have a texting line set upand it's crazy popular.
So get on the train.
Text the word podcast to888-402-8940.
We would love your showfeedback, uh, show ideas, all
the things.
We love hearing from y'alldirectly through that, um,
(01:54):
through our new podcast line.
Amy, um we're okay.
So I'm just gonna put you on thespot here for a second.
What do you?
I mean, when an author comes toyou, because you're like our
first line when somebody comesinto the into the company
inquiring about services, andsomebody doesn't really know
(02:15):
their market, like, and maybethey haven't really told you,
like they haven't said, well,I'm not really sure why I wrote
this before.
Is there some kind of a telltalesign that you spot when somebody
sends you an email?
If that does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
If yeah, yeah.
Like, do I have a sense ofwhether who they wrote it for?
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Yeah.
I mean, do you have a sense ofwhether they actually have a
defined market?
I mean, is it something thatshows up, is it very apparent
when somebody contacts you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Well, and yeah, that's interesting.
It it's definitely differentbetween published versus not
published, because you know, Ithink we've talked about this a
lot in different shows too, thateverything is your brand and
everything should reflect whoyou're writing for.
So if the book's already out,you know, obviously I look at
the cover, I look at, you know,read the description.
There's so many other thingsthat kind of, and maybe not
(03:07):
everything is spot on, and itmay not be reflecting who the
author really wants to target,but either way, your book is
already saying something,whether you want it to or not,
right?
Yeah, for sure.
But if the book isn't publishedyet, then it's really
interesting.
It it kind of, yes, there areways to tell that they're unsure
based on what they focus on whenthey when they're introducing us
(03:30):
to their book.
And and it's and it's notnecessarily a bad thing.
There are ways to figure out whoyou wrote for, even if you
didn't have a really clear ideaat the beginning.
There are ways to, you know,figure it out, and that's what
we're here for.
But yeah, I think it's in howit's presented.
You know, if it's presented in away that is very personal and
emotional and maybe rooted insomething that happened earlier
(03:52):
in their life, and these are allwonderful, beautiful
motivations, but it doesn'tactually focus on who the reader
is.
So I think it's really more ofokay, so when they're explaining
the book to us when they firstcontact us, if there's nothing
rooted in any sort of, you know,genre tropes or topic
(04:12):
appropriate um pain points andthings like that that are very
much kind of a solidified,concrete, yes, they know who
they wrote for, they had avision for this from the get-go.
You kind of have to figure thatthis is going to be a process
that we'll go through with themto kind of figure this out so we
could message everythingappropriately, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (04:33):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think that it's a um themyth is that if I wrote a book,
someone out there will want it.
Right.
Right.
And that's that's a big myth.
The thing about it is, though,too.
So before we go too far down therabbit hole, I think it's also
worth mentioning that um we docome across authors who
(04:53):
literally have no market fortheir book.
Like there's literally no readeraudience, which which sounds
devastating, but it's notcommon.
So what we hope to do with thisshow is literally maybe help you
um pivot to figure out exactlywhere you're because we have had
(05:15):
authors, so I so the here's anexample.
So I worked with an author, weworked with an author, and she
had her romance novel in eroticromance, and it was not an
erotic romance novel.
So when we worked with her, wepivoted the book to contemporary
(05:35):
romance, and the book did somuch better.
So sometimes it's literally justa pivot.
But one of the things, so Amyand I were, we were in the green
room, we were sort of talkingabout talking through the notes
of the podcast, and the termreverse engineering came up,
right?
So when I think about reverseengineering, I think about
you're literally reverseengineering yourself into
(05:59):
success, right?
So you want to figure out likehow something was made.
And so you, and a lot of things,a lot of tools that we use were
all what all went through thereverse engineer process.
But a lot of times what happenswhen authors reverse engineer
their book is they create amashup of, let's say, romance,
sci-fi thriller, fantasy, maybethrowing a little bit of poetry
(06:21):
in there or something, I don'tknow.
And then they try to reverseengineer the market for this
multi-genre book, which that'swhere we start to get into
problems.
And in terms of nonfiction, sosharing a personal experience is
(06:44):
great.
If you've been through it, youknow, like what worked for me
kind of thing, and wanting toput that in the book, because I
know that we and we've workedwith authors who are very, very
passionate about stuff.
I went through whatever it was,right?
And I want to write thisnonfiction book to help other
people.
But writing the book beforechecking to see if there are
(07:06):
readers that are activelylooking for that kind of content
is a mistake because in manycases, what you can do is you
can literally just maybe flipthe script a little bit.
So, okay, so you take yourexperience, but you put it in a
bigger bucket of something thatreaders are actually looking
for, and then you createsomething that actually works.
I mean, does that make sense,Amy?
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that the fiction examplewas really great because that I
mean, and I think that happens alot, Penny, with what ends up
going and it's a huge market,which is challenging, but I
think we see that a lot withbooks that end up as literary
fiction because they've gotessence of quite a few different
(07:49):
things, but not enough to fitinto a very specific genre
fiction bucket, if that makessense.
And I think that gets reallychallenging.
I mean, we've worked for withsome wonderful books with
beautiful covers, and it justtakes it's a longer runway, you
know, to use, you know, yourexample, that sometimes if you
really don't exactly fit whatthe market, as you said, is
(08:12):
actively looking for, it takes alittle while to find your
people.
And I think that's something toremember too, that the more
specific you are about yourmarket, the quicker you can
potentially build momentumbecause you know you have what
those people are looking for,you deliver it in a great
package, boom, you're good.
You know?
So if it's not as spot on asthat, it doesn't mean you can't
(08:35):
still find your people.
But a lot, you know, a lot ofwhat we talk about is being
realistic.
It also means being realisticabout the kind of marketing
strategies you need to use andhow long it's realistically
going to take to find thosepeople and make a good
impression on them.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
Well, and the other piece of it too, and and and I'm
so thrilled that I get to saythis because I think it's
something that is worthrepeating throughout the show.
A marketing company, marketingteam, can we can refine and we
can sharpen and we can amplify,but we cannot invent a market
where none exists.
And that's whether you hire amarketing firm or not, that is
(09:12):
something that you should, Imean, mount that, put that on
your wall.
Like because that is somethingthat I think is really um that's
really challenging, is that whenauthors show up to the
marketplace with a book that hasno clear shelf space, um it
markets just cannot be pulledout of thin air.
(09:32):
So let's so now that we've kindof expanded on the problem and
unpacked the problem, Amy, doyou want to take the first part
of how to how to sort of how tobetter identify your market?
Because it's really, I know thissounds very kind of heady, it's
like, oh wow, what a nice dayafter Thanksgiving podcast, but
it's actually much easier thanthan you might think.
SPEAKER_00 (09:52):
Yeah, we've really broken this down into some
pretty simple steps.
And it's actually a greatexercise that, and because what
you're going to uncover doingall of this is going to
influence your marketing longterm too.
So this is not just a one timebecause Penny and Amy said you
have to do this homework.
This is insight that you'regoing to be able to use over and
over and over again.
(10:13):
So it's it's that important, butthat simple.
So identify your shelfneighbors.
So you could go to a bookstorephysically, which is kind of
fun.
Like treat yourself, maybe notthis weekend, if you're actually
listening to this when it comesout, because bless you for going
out in that mess.
You can also do this from theprivacy of your home.
You can go on Amazon, but findthree to five books that are
(10:34):
most like yours, you know,genre, tone, audience
positioning.
I love looking at bestsellerlists, not because not, I mean,
yes, it's aspirational, sure,but it's such a great way to see
what people are buying.
You know, whether you like it ornot, that's what people are
gravitating towards and that'swhat they're purchasing.
You know, so I think that'sanother big piece of this too,
(10:54):
Penny, is that like you maythink one thing or you may want
people to want your book, butthe reality is they're out there
shopping, they're makingdecisions and being objective to
some degree and saying, okay,what I think doesn't actually
matter all that much, what doesmatter is how people are
shopping and the books they'regravitating towards.
And that's the train I want toget on.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Right, right, exactly.
I think I love the shelves, I Ilove the bookstore shelf space.
And I think is actually, I mean,if you live in your bio book
store, which is awesome, um, andyou have the opportunity to go
in and take a look and see whereyour book might be shelved.
I mean, listen, if your bookcan't be shelved in an obvious
(11:36):
place that exists, whetheronline or in in person, you're
lit, you're not going to be ableto find.
I mean, it impacts not just theshelf, you know, your virtual or
in-person shelf space, but italso impacts everything.
I mean, whether you're whenyou're doing Amazon ads.
But if you cannot, and if youcannot identify a one-sentence
(11:56):
reader statement, like my bookis for readers who love insert,
right?
And want like insert, a specificexperience or an outcome.
We did a show on elevatorpitches, I want to say a few
weeks ago, maybe it may havebeen a month ago, but go back to
that show and start to work onyour elevator pitch.
(12:19):
Because your elevator pitches,so your one sentence reader
statement and elevator pitch arekind of sort of the same thing.
You have to really be able todefine my reader wants, let's
say, my let's say, for example,my reader really wants a, so
we're in the holiday season now,right?
A cozy holiday small townromance.
(12:40):
Um, my book is for readers wholove a cozy holiday, small town
romance, who want to feel goodwith a happy, happy ever after,
right?
That is exactly who your readeris.
If your book doesn't fit that.
So let's say, for example, youdon't give them a happily ever
after, for example, right?
That's a big no-no in romance,by the way.
(13:02):
We had an author one time, thisa couple of years ago, and she's
like, Yeah, so I film that bookin romance, but nobody really
ends up with each other.
And I'm like, um, that's aproblem.
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Right.
Exactly.
Genres, you know, and I knowI've cited romance a couple of
times, but regardless of thegenre, people have specific
expectations.
Even if you've written a book onpoetry or if you've written a
memoir, it doesn't matter.
People have expectations aboutthe outcome.
SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
Right.
And I think this is alsocombined with number one, with
identifying your shelfneighbors, really take that to
heart because you should also beable to say confidently that,
and I think this is a great likeheadspace to get into.
My reader already has thesebooks on their bookshelf.
unknown (13:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
You know what I mean?
And that's a really great way tofigure out where you belong and
determine if you've clearlydefined where you fit into the
market.
Because if your answer is like,well, there's no other books
like mine, it's like, well, youknow, A plus for creativity, but
it's going to be very hard toconvince readers that you have
(14:11):
something that they're lookingfor.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, so you really want tobe able to say, you know, my
readers already love theseauthors, or my readers already
have these books on their shelfbecause they're looking to solve
this problem or learn this.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
You know, and if you can do that, you're on the right
track.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that um, you want totake the next one, the the Yeah,
this is very cool.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Okay, so highlight what makes your book special.
So now that we've said like youneed to be like everybody else.
So, like we're back in middleschool, we all want to be the
same.
Now you have to work on whatmakes your book special because
there is a point to this.
So, three unique aspectsfiction, this could be your
setting, your protagonist'sunusual traits, your spin on a
genre trope for nonfiction, thisis a specific method you
(14:59):
developed, a perspective notcommonly addressed, or maybe a
very, you know, a problem thatyou are solving in a different
way.
Again, this is why knowing whatyour readers currently read and
what they've gravitated towardin the past, this is also draw
on that to determine what makesyou special.
But this, so what this does,it's like, okay, I've determined
(15:20):
this is where I belong.
But then again, you don't wantto get lost in the crowd.
So once you determine you have aplace there, then you need to
determine what makes you uniquebecause this becomes your
marketing hooks, how you pitchyourself, how you make yourself
stand out.
So I know you'll all you alreadylove books like these.
And this is why my book is goingto add to your experience in the
(15:41):
genre, or why my book is goingto change your perspective on
this topic, or why my book isgoing to finally solve that
problem you've been looking toanswer.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Well, and that's the thing that that is where, so
okay, so like as Amy said, youknow, back in middle school, we
all kind of fit in, we fit onthis, we fit on the same shelf.
But then there are thecharacteristics that that set
you apart from the other books,right?
Um, and these unique elementsare also something that you're
going to use in in all of yourin all of your copies.
(16:12):
So your your your description onyour Amazon retail page, your
website copy, in your pitching.
Um, and your book does have to,you you do have to tell the
reader how your book isdifferent.
I find this a problematic a lotof times for our nonfiction
authors.
So I will, when I get on thephone with a nonfiction author,
(16:33):
I will always say, All right, sotell me what your book's about.
And they tell me, and I'm like,okay, so how is your book
different from the 9,000 booksthat were published on the same
topic last month?
And I'm just throwing thatnumber out there, right?
And a lot of times they don'treally know.
And they're coming to amarketing firm to help them to
(16:56):
determine that, determine howtheir book is different, which
is fair, right?
And that's something that youand I both love to do.
Like we love giving books thattheir standout statement.
We love that.
But as authors out there doingyour thing and beating the
bushes and finding readers andeverything, you really have to
figure this out.
You know, you cannot lead with,because otherwise your book is
(17:19):
just gonna look just like everyother book on the bookshelf,
right?
Um so and then I think alongwith that, what's the what's the
reader's payoff?
And this is really, I'm tellingyou, as consumers, we buy for
emotional, intellectual, um foranything, right?
(17:44):
Not just because we like thepremise, right?
Not just because, well, look,there's a book on, you know, how
to do yoga, but there are fivebillion other books on there on
how to do yoga.
Or there's another book on, youknow, that's kind of a thriller.
Like I I listen to a lot ofthrillers, I listen to a lot of
audiobooks.
I'm really particular about thekind of thrillers that I listen
(18:07):
to when I'm on my hikes, right?
Um what is, you know, afterreading my book, a reader will
feel what or know what, right?
Um and every author has toreally build their particular,
(18:29):
you know, build their particularniche in terms of what where
their focus is.
And that's also part of yourbrand.
And you can go back to some ofour branding shows and and get
the, you know, get the deep diveon that if you have some time
this weekend too.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Right.
And that's so important, Penny.
Like you said, what are theygoing to get out of it?
Because if you're pitching yourbook to influencers, you know
what I mean, to the media,anything like that, that's
really important because, andwe've mentioned this in our
media shows before, but and it'sit sounds simple, but it's so
easy to forget that you andwhoever you are pitching are
(19:06):
trying to please the sameaudience.
They have a mission too.
They have a goal as well.
They are providing content, youknow what I mean, that is
designed to make those peoplehappy and have them coming back
for more.
So you really have to drill downinto that because that is their
goal as well.
They are trying to serve anaudience.
(19:26):
And the better you can alignwith that by saying this is what
they are going to get out of it,the better.
That that and that clicks withthem and they go, okay, that's
what I know my audience islooking for.
This person, this author,clearly understands that, and
that's what they're offering.
So I'm intrigued, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
Right, exactly.
And that's part of things.
So, so, like, for example, myreader's payoff when they when
somebody buys one of my books isthey are gonna have a very, you
know, it's it's my books arevery conversational.
It's like we're sitting acrossthe table from one another, just
talking about book marketing.
I'm not using complicatedjargon.
It's really just kind of laidout in a very easy to understand
(20:10):
fashion.
Not that my readers aren't allwildly intelligent, but let's
face it, when you're learning anew thing, you don't want
somebody throwing a bunch ofterminology at you that you then
have to spend time to go lookup, right?
Right.
So my my core focus of my booksis creating something that is
very palatable for readers thatthey can literally, you know,
(20:33):
that they not only that they canadapt and use, but they really
want to.
So it's also a littlemotivational, which is kind of
sort of my MO just in general.
But that's and you have tofigure out, and so that then
becomes kind of part of mybrand, but you have to figure
out what that is for you.
And if that changes with everysingle book, that's a problem.
Right.
You know what I mean?
(20:54):
That's that's then you may aswell be writing, you know, you
could still be writing in thesame genre, but if every single
book has a different payoff forthe reader, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
You know?
Um, so the next one, this I lovethis one.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
I know.
I I love this one too.
Define your core reader.
So again, these are all goingback to some of these are just
reiterating the importance ofdetermining who your reader is
and understanding who thatperson is from the jump because
it'll save you a lot of grief.
But defining your core readermeans writing down a mini
(21:32):
profile of your ideal reader,age, gender, lifestyle, like
favorite books, hobbies, on andon and on.
And you're probably thinking,well, that sounds like a lot of
work, but stick with me herebecause it can actually be
really fun.
But again, we said a lot of thisis going to pay off long term.
(21:52):
So by defining your core readerand writing down a mini profile,
you are also giving yourselfideas for how to connect with
them on different levels.
So not just selling your book,but making sure they understand
that you know what they'relooking for, you understand
them.
This is this is absolutelyimperative if you plan on being
(22:12):
on social media.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
You know, and it's also super, super helpful if you
are have if you have anewsletter.
You know, you want to know whatthese people are interested in
above and beyond your bookbecause you can't make a brand
solely out of just sellingsomething.
Buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buymy stuff.
You become white noise after awhile.
So you really have to offer morethat says, I see you, I
(22:37):
understand what you're lookingfor.
I want to be that person thatyou can go to for all sorts of
different kinds of content.
Not just, yes, I know, you know,I know you want me to buy your
book.
I get it.
You know, you really want tosee.
Think of who you follow online.
Right.
You know, like it's not justbecause you buy stuff from them,
(22:57):
right?
There's so many other reasons wefollow people for their content
or follow certain channels orwatch certain shows or read
certain magazines.
You know what I mean?
It's because you feel seen.
SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
Right, exactly.
And the ideal reader, weactually have a reader profile
and that we've had for years.
We've updated it.
We just actually updated itagain this year.
So you could get our readerprofile um and actually, you
know what?
I'll make a note to put thatalso in the show notes.
Because it is a great way.
And and I will tell you so alittle bit of backstory here.
(23:28):
The reader profile that we havewas actually born out of um the
consumer profile that a friendof mine who worked for IBM back
in the day, like a billion yearsago when computers first sort of
hit the market, which apparentlyis the Stone Age.
Um, and IBM used to actuallyput, so in their T in their
meetings, in their salesmeetings, they would literally
(23:49):
spend so much time defining onwho, defining their ideal
consumer.
And they would go into the mostintricate detail.
And part of the reason for thatwas obviously computers were new
at the time, but part of thereason for that is that the more
focus that you can get on who'sactually buying your books,
slash in IBM's case, product,the the fewer mistakes that
(24:11):
you're gonna make, the more thatyour brand will look um
cohesive, right?
The more that you will findlanguage that really appeals to
your market, which is part ofthe reason why the ideal reader
um deep dive, and I actually putit in one of my books too the
ideal reader deep dive is ittakes a little bit of time, it
(24:34):
sounds like super unsexy to do,bottom of your to-do list.
Like I get it, but it willreally, really benefit you.
And it might also spark someideas for your social media and
other things that you could bedoing to try and pull in more
readers.
Um, so the next one, the toobroad trap.
This one, and this has been kindof like a thing in the industry
for years, where authors say, mybook is really for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
So I hate that so much.
Sorry.
I know, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
And everybody, you know, if you're looking, so you
know, everybody is really it'san expensive target.
Let me just put it that way.
Right.
Right.
If you're targeting everybody,you're really targeting
essentially no one.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
Right.
We have very oh, go ahead,Penny, sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
No, um, no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
I was just gonna say, I we had a perfect example
of this, a current client, andit was a great conversation, and
she happens to write for uhyounger people, but on Amazon
her age range was six tosixteen.
You know, and I I wrote her andI just said, and she was very
receptive and she was like,Thank you for catching that.
(25:45):
I absolutely agree.
This is my butt you know, Isaid, somebody with a
six-year-old is not going to buysomething that is presented as
appropriate for a 16-year-oldand vice versa.
Yeah.
You know, and that's just a verylike straightforward example,
but for what it's worth, itreally does, those things
matter.
You know, you are not going tosell to more parents by saying
(26:06):
it's great for a six-year-oldall the way up to a 16-year-old,
because there is no parent inthe world that is going to agree
with you.
And they will and they will moveon.
unknown (26:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
Right, exactly.
And you know, too broad is a umnot only is it an expensive
target, uh it's a very expensiveway to market your book, but it
also feels, you know, we in thisin this era where we get, I
forget now what the number is.
I really wanted to commit it tomemory, but of course there's so
much other stuff going on.
(26:36):
We get like thousands of adsevery single day targeting us.
If the ad doesn't feel personalanymore, like if your pitch
doesn't feel personal, it'sactually kind of insulting,
right?
Like you really should stopwasting my time, kind of a
(26:56):
thing.
Um and we, you know, you do seethis like in spam a lot, of
course, like emails like, oh, Ibet you'd like like we get this
a lot.
We I bet you'd like a mailinglist of tire factories around
the United States.
I'm like, really?
Like what?
You know, uh when you get toounfocused and too broad in your
(27:19):
um in your audience, nothingelse seems, nothing else really
works, right?
Um and and that's where you haveto, you know, really kind of
whittle.
This is something, again, Amyand I both love to do when we
get on the phone with authorswho start the conversation with,
this book is really foreverybody.
(27:39):
It's like, I don't think that'sa really true statement.
Let's get some clarification andyou know, asking them some
questions.
Clarity sells better than tryingto sell something that's too
universal, like the exampleswith the ads that aren't quite
right or the crazy spam emailsthat you get that you're like, I
(28:00):
don't understand why you wouldeven target me.
It's insulting.
Narrowing is not only powerful,and you know, a lot of times
authors, and I just want to,sorry, I want to stop by saying
a lot of times the reason thatauthors go broad is because they
feel the pressure to go broad inorder to pull in more sales.
It's a little bit of a fallacy.
(28:20):
Actually, it's it's a bigfallacy in the industry.
The broader I go, the bigger mysales will be, right?
It's kind of like casting yournet wide.
Like if I cast my net wideenough, I'm gonna pull in a
whole lot of fish.
Like replace the word fish withcash.
That literally never works whenyou're selling.
Right.
Right.
Narrowing is very powerful.
It the clarity will help you tobuild your audience so much
(28:44):
faster.
So if you're, you know, ifyou're listening to this and
you're like, you know, maybethat's the mistake that I made
with my first book or my secondbook or whatever, go back and
rework it.
Because unless your topic hasexpired, like unless you wrote
about something that now isn'treally kind of a thing anymore,
you probably there's probably anopportunity to have a second
(29:05):
chance at, you know, at yourmarket.
SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
Absolutely.
I love that idea.
I think that is something thatis, I mean, it it, yes, it's
work, but you put so much intoit the first time around.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Well, that's the thing.
And I know we have a show comingup on burnout, which I think the
burnout rate is much higher forauthors who aren't willing to go
down the reader rabbit hole.
Yeah.
Because you're spending a lot oftime throwing a lot of stuff,
you know, the spray and praytheory, or spraying spraying a
lot of stuff, throwing a lot ofstuff, excuse me, up against the
wall and hoping that some of itsticks.
(29:41):
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
And I like I like your mention about, you know,
narrowing is powerful becauseit's a lot easier to build when
you're getting positive resultsjust mentally, you know, let
alone your bottom line.
But it's so much easier to.
To build from something smallthat is working for you than it
(30:04):
is to try to figure out how toprune and pull back and where do
you do that?
And you know what I mean?
It's it's when you have a lotgoing on and nothing feels like
it's working, it's a lot morechallenging to figure out how to
come back from that than it isto focus on a narrow market, do
(30:24):
the right things, see, you know,results, see positive responses,
see those reviews populating,things like that.
Even when they're small wins,it's so much easier to go bigger
from there than it is to pullback from a mess.
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yeah, it really is.
And you know, people so aroundthis time of year, I'm like knee
deep in in or waist deep inHallmark.
So good Hallmark Christmasmovies.
And um, and you know, peoplepeople like to joke about them
like the plots are they haveseven different plots and they
basically recycle them throughall these movies, and yet people
still watch them.
And people by people, I mean me.
(31:02):
Hallmark has really found theirmarket, right?
When you think about it, theyhave narrowed their market.
They know what they are, theyknow what they're not.
They have tried in some withsome movies to like deviate off
of that.
Like, well, maybe not everymovie needs a happy ending.
Oh no, yes, it does.
That's why we're turning intoHallmark.
Every movie has to have a happyending, full stop.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Especially this time of year, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah.
When when when Hallmark hasdeviated off of that, they you
know, they're the the the movieor the show or whatever just
falls flat.
Yeah.
There is something really,really powerful in narrowing
your and narrowing your focus.
So I know we spent a lot of timeon that, but I just think it's
it's super important.
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
All right.
It does.
It saves you a lot of time andmoney.
Next point.
Yes, test with comparisons.
And this, I I really like thistoo, because I will say, Penny,
when we are helping our clientswith their Amazon retail pages
and using up all that amazingfree space that Amazon gives you
to connect with readers indifferent ways.
(32:06):
And it it I love it anyway, wedo this a lot.
So in use different versions ofit.
But so essentially, and thiskind of goes back to you know,
figuring out which books youalign with, figuring out which
other authors, you know, yourreaders read, what are they
gravitating toward?
But describe your book as it'sso you mention a book or an
(32:27):
author meets another book,popular book or author.
Again, what are your readerslooking for?
What are they already reading?
What do they already love?
But with, and then you insertwhat makes your book unique.
So we're kind of pullingtogether a few of the different
exercises that we've alreadytalked about, right?
So we talked about finding whereyour book fits on the shelf.
We've talked about understandingwhat your reader is already
(32:50):
reading, what do they alreadylike, you know, know what those
comps are, and then alsofiguring out what makes your
book unique.
So you're already basicallyconnecting the dots for the
reader.
And this is also super helpfulwhen you're pitching, because if
you're pitching an influencer orthe media, connecting the dots
for them matters as well.
They've got very little time tomake a decision about whether
(33:11):
they're interested or not.
And this is this can really helpthem.
So it's this author meets thisauthor, but here's my unique
twist.
And again, these are justshorthand signals that both talk
about the genre, the topic, andthe unique value.
And it puts it into a nicelittle compact package and it
makes it easier for readers toconnect the dots.
(33:33):
And again, we do this a lot forour retail page work and we do a
few different versions of thisbecause you don't want to do a
huge long list, right?
That sounds a little toodesperate.
It's these top five authors inThriller, all combined into one
plus here's my unique twist.
It's like, okay, clearly that'sthat's not focused, right?
But you can do this in a in acouple clever clever ways.
(33:55):
So if you have a politicalthriller, you know, maybe the
first example you focus more onthe thriller elements and who
those authors are.
And then in another example, youreally zero in on authors that
specifically focus on the on thepolitical thriller market.
You know what I mean?
So there are ways to includemultiple examples and be really
smart about it.
But again, you are telling thatreader that is likely already
(34:18):
reading those books or at leastrespects those authors in that
space, going, okay, like if ifyou think you could stand up
with them, I'm intrigued, right?
I I want to read more.
I may spend a little bit longeron your retail page.
SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
Right.
Yeah, that's a that's that'sexactly right.
So I think that just to kind ofum just to kind of bring this
home when so two things.
The more that you can articulatewhat makes your book unique, the
easier it is going to be for youto build your audience, find
(34:54):
your readers, etc.
And figuring out exactly whoyour reader is, even if you made
a mistake the first time, right?
Because it's not about you don'twant to be creating an audience.
It and it you want to connectwith the right existing
(35:16):
audience.
And that's not to say thatsometimes there are, you know,
we would not have, you know, 10years ago, just an example, even
five years ago, we weren'ttalking about Chat GPT as an
example.
That was a market that did notexist.
There were no books dedicated tothat market.
If you had written a book fiveyears ago, people would have
(35:37):
been like, Chat, what?
So markets do change.
But if you are writing for amarket that doesn't exist or an
audience that doesn't exist, andyou want to create it from
scratch, maybe there is a marketfor that, but it's gonna cost
you a whole lot of money to tryand create that.
(35:57):
And in most cases, it doesn'texist and it won't ever exist,
if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
Yes.
The confused mind doesn't buy,right, Penny?
You've said that before manytimes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
The confused mind doesn't buy.
Yeah, that's the other thingthough, too, is that you really
have to, you know, our mindskind of short circuit when we
are forced to figure out what abook is about, right?
When we are forced to figure outwhat the benefits are, you
really have to, you have to kindof put those, all that on a
(36:28):
platter and serve that up in areally nice way that it's very,
very clear to your reader.
Um, and this is where a lot oftimes authors writing their own
pitches go wrong.
And they, you know, they'll tellme all the time, they say, Well,
you know, I pitched all thesepeople and I never heard back.
And I said, Well, you're like,how did you pitch them?
So, well, I just sent it overand hope that they, you know,
(36:48):
and just let them figure it out.
Like, no, no, you really have todo the homework.
You have to, you have to beextremely clear on how this book
is going to benefit theiraudience, why it's perfect for
their audience, and you do thesame thing with your reader.
And I know it sounds like a lotof work, but I'm telling you
right now, you could be spendinga whole lot of money targeting,
(37:11):
just literally targeting thewrong people.
And we see this all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
100%.
Yeah.
You could waste a lot of yourown time and money, and you can
waste a lot of money expecting,you know, as Penny said in the
beginning of the episode,expecting a marketing firm to
magically create something thatdoesn't exist.
If those are your expectations,you're not going to be happy.
You know what I mean?
Right.
With the results.
You really need to give themsomething to work with or expect
(37:40):
to spend the time with yourteam, you know, through
coaching, consulting, whateverit is, to figure out, you know,
a lane that you're going to putyourself in that everybody's on
the same page, because it reallydoes matter.
SPEAKER_01 (37:52):
And if if you haven't listened to the episode
that we did on elevator pitches,definitely go back because I
think that layered on top ofthis episode will be will, you
know, will really be helpful.
If if you're feelingoverwhelmed, if you're listening
to this, you're like, oh, I'mjust so overwhelmed.
Sometimes really small changescan make a huge difference.
So if you've targeted, you know,if you feel like you're you've
(38:14):
your targeting is misaligned,your reader market is
misaligned, you may have toupdate the cover and you may
have to change up the bookdescription and change out the
keywords.
But if the book itself is solid,that may be the only thing you
need to do.
And I know, like, oh my gosh,changing the cover has already
sent half of the audience into atailspin.
It's really not that difficult.
(38:35):
We've done it in the years thatAmy and I have been working
together, we've done this a tonwith authors who are receptive.
And the benefits of making thesechanges, of you know, taking a
different direction with yourbook very much outweigh the
amount of work that you have todo.
And it always, it's always animprovement.
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
It's always an impact.
I can't think of one time pennywhere we've had an author that
is really like committed torestarting where it didn't work
out in their favor.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
You know.
Yeah.
And in some cases, just workedout like extremely well where
there's like, oh my gosh, Idon't know why I didn't do this
years ago.
So here's the thing.
It sounds a little bitoverwhelming.
What I'd like if you'relistening to this, you're like,
oh my gosh, I think this is myproblem.
Maybe it's not with your currentbook, maybe it's a past book,
whatever.
Maybe it's a book that's stillyet to come out.
Start with one step this week.
(39:28):
Start with the shelf, Amy talkedabout, right?
Figure out who your shelfneighbors are, right?
Or if you're so inclined, goback to the elevator pitch
episode and create your, youknow, your reader's, your
one-sentence reader statement.
Do one or those or both of thosethings.
And I'm telling you, I promiseyou, this will, this will change
(39:49):
the if you've been languishingand obscure, feel like you're
languishing in obscurity, thiswill change the trajectory of
everything for you.
So um, all right.
So we oh so Amy came up with Amyhas all the best ideas, I swear.
Amy came up with this really,really cool uh listener poll.
So we would love it if you wouldtake a moment.
(40:09):
There'll be a link along withthe reader profile.
There will be a link to thereader poll in the show notes.
So please, a listener poll,sorry, I said reader poll.
We really want your feedback.
We want your feedback on showlength, show ideas, all the
things.
That's probably the reason whywe have the podcast where we
have the the uh text text us tothe podcast.
We really want to this, we'redoing this for you guys.
(40:31):
So we really want to know whatyou want to see more of, what
you want to see less of, showlength, everything, because we
may be making some changes inthe new year.
And those changes are all goingto be informed by the feedback
that we get.
Uh, once again, the podcast lineis firing up.
People are giving us all kindsof ideas all the time, and we
love it.
Text the word podcast to888-402-8940.
(40:56):
We may put the reader poll inthe podcast, I'm not sure, but
definitely take a look at theshow notes because we'll have
the what's I said reader pollagain.
I'm so focused on readers.
What is wrong with me?
Oh, that's right.
I do book marketing.
Thank you.
I listen, we hope you we bothhope you had a really, really
great Thanksgiving.
We will see you next week.
We are gonna do um, we're wehave a couple of really, really
(41:17):
fun shows coming up.
So a reader favorite shows, ourfavorite shows.
Um, so we're gonna keep you verybusy through the holiday season.
Not that you wanted morehomework in December, but thank
you so much, and we'll see younext week.
Bye bye.
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