June 27, 2025 • 25 mins
Ever felt like you're just shoving your book down people's throats? You're not alone. In this illuminating conversation, Penny and Amy tackle the critical difference between book marketing and brand marketing—revealing why the latter might be your secret weapon for long-term author success.
Brand marketing creates the foundation upon which all your book promotions will stand. But here's the surprising insight: the best time to network is when you don't have anything to sell. This counterintuitive approach allows you to build authentic relationships, observe what resonates with potential readers, and establish connections with influencers before you need their support. As Penny notes, "If you're going to make mistakes, make them before the book is out."
For authors anxiously waiting months before publication, this episode offers a roadmap of productive activities and unique ideas!
Whether you're preparing for your first launch or looking to revitalize your existing author platform, this episode transforms the overwhelming concept of marketing into an authentic, relationship-focused approach that feels less like selling and more like connecting. Ready to build your brand rather than just sell your book? Listen now, then share your biggest marketing challenge with us!
Buy Penny's book The Amazon Author Formula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sanseviery andAmy Cornell, and so, first off,
we have so many questions.
We just got another review.
We love reviews, by the way.
Thank you so so much.
So Petective I wanted to sayPet Detective, but Petective, I
(00:22):
think, is.
So.
Petective wrote a review andsaid that they really love the
show Five stars Yay us.
Sometimes they sound like aknow-it-all older sister and her
annoying best friend.
We want to know who is who.
Like, we don't mind that.
You said that, because I findit hilarious.
I do too.
I'm pretty sure that I'm theannoying best friend.
(00:43):
I think that I'm the annoyingbest friend.
I think that I'm the annoyingone.
Not that Amy's a know-it-all,but I mean I just think no, but
I would love to hear the.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
it was an awesome review.
It made me laugh, which is abonus you know.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, it made me laugh too.
So thank you so much for thereview, but now you have to
impart, but you have to email usinfo at amarketingexpertcom and
let us know who is who.
We just really want to know,because we've been going back
and forth on this and I thoughtit was hilarious.
Thank you so much for listening.
We love that and we lovereviews.
We always ask for them, soleave us a review.
We have so many questions aboutthis one in particular.
(01:21):
I hope whoever wrote thatreview will let us know, because
that will help to solve thatmystery.
So in last week's show oh, andwe just recorded a show that hit
on launch day of my book, theAmazon Author Formula Workbook.
So the workbook is now out,both paperback and e-book.
(01:43):
Super excited about that.
But we hinted at this showpreviously because we did a show
on brand marketing versus bookmarketing.
I think it was maybe two orthree years ago, so after five
years sometimes it's good toredo certain shows and in that,
during that episode, we talkedabout the importance of brand
(02:06):
marketing and in the context ofthe show, in the show today,
what we're talking about aroundbrand marketing came up during a
conversation, during manyconversations that we have had,
Amy and I have had with authorsabout my book isn't out for a
month or three months or sixmonths or whatever.
(02:26):
I want to be doing something.
What can I be doing?
And that's where the brandmarketing conversation comes in.
But brand marketing issomething, as an author, you
should be doing all the time.
Now you're probably listeningto this You're like, oh my gosh,
and now I have to do bookmarketing and brand marketing
and we're going to break it alldown for you.
But brand marketing isimportant.
(02:49):
As you are moving through theprocess of either getting ready
to get your book out into theworld and or doing things to
market your book, Brandmarketing should always be a
consideration.
I mean, right, Amy?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
your book.
Brand marketing should alwaysbe a consideration.
I mean, right, amy?
Yeah, I mean, the brandmarketing is really what keeps
the momentum going in betweenreleases, because I'm sure
anybody listening if you doalready have a book out and
you've done book marketing canlike relate to the fact that
it's like I feel like there'sonly so much time and so many
ways I can talk about my bookover and over and over again,
right, and so I think that'salso where the brand marketing
(03:27):
is kind of a bonus in terms ofother things you can focus on in
different ways to literallypromote your brand without just
shoving your book down people'sthroats all the time, because we
talk to our clients all thetime that that's what they feel
like they're doing, you know,especially on social media, in
their newsletter.
It's like I feel like I'malways just saying the same
(03:48):
thing over and over again and itfeels like insanity.
And that's where brandmarketing can kind of give you a
break from just like literallyshoving your book down their
throats and focusing on someother really unique ways to
connect with readers and to givethem a better experience and
all those good things.
And, as Penny mentioned, this issomething that came from
(04:11):
authors that reach out to uswell in advance of their books.
That's what really started this.
But for anybody listening whoalready has books out, please
insert yourself wherever itmakes sense in all of our
recommendations.
So, even if we may bementioning timelines and things
like that, just know you can doany of these things at any point
and it will definitely help you.
(04:32):
So this is not one of thosethings where, if you haven't
done this already and you'repast that, it's off the table
for you.
That's not it at all.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Right, exactly, Well, and so part of it is, too, that
we oftentimes yes, I think alot of times authors feel like,
oh my gosh, I feel like I'm justout there pandering my book all
the time is really kind of testdriving all of the things
(05:09):
involved in who you are as anauthor.
So that's your social mediaportals.
That's getting on there andgetting your feet wet in, you
know, Instagram or Facebook orTikTok or wherever you feel like
you're going to be.
Maybe you're going to be in allthree places.
It is starting, you know, it'sobviously it's taking your
website out for a test drive.
(05:29):
It's building your newsletterlist.
But probably the most importantpart of brand marketing, to my
mind, is networking.
So the best time to network iswhen you don't have anything to
sell, which I know sounds alittle counterintuitive to
networking.
But when you don't haveanything to sell, you will
(05:52):
listen more than you speaktypically, right?
So you think about, like, whenyou go to a networking event or
something, you're just out thereto kind of meet people and you
don't really have anything like,oh, my book is not out for six
months and you're just trying toget to know people.
The same thing is true.
When you're networking online,your goal is to get to know
(06:13):
voices in your industry, soinfluencers and people who are
reviewers and people who aretalking about, who have a voice
in the industry, who are talkingabout your topic.
And by getting to know them,what I mean is starting to
(06:33):
follow them, commenting on theirposts, sharing their posts
whenever appropriate, and thisis one of the reasons why the
brand marketing piece issomething that you can carry
through even well after yourbook is out, because that
networking piece of it willalways benefit you, you know, as
you move through the.
(06:55):
You know the marketing process.
The other reason why I likenetworking is because and yes,
you can certainly hire a companylike us to help you market your
book, but I really like.
So one of the things that we dowith our authors is we
encourage them.
Whenever a reviewer asks for aprint book, we encourage our
(07:16):
authors to mail the print bookdirectly to that influencer or
that reviewer and put in alittle note or something.
Those are now relationships.
That's a relationship that youhave, that you can foster
through other book titles.
Networking is so important, animportant part of your author
career, that I think it'ssomething that you should really
(07:38):
always be doing.
I mean Amy what do?
you think?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I agree.
And another point that we hadon here too, penny, was that
Amazon is busy, it's noisy.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
There's a lot going on.
Most authors are going to be alittle disappointed when the
book finally shows up on Amazonand there isn't this big party,
there's not this like justimmediate onslaught of sales.
It just doesn't happen thatquickly anymore.
But you can kind of speed upthat process If you have
(08:11):
something established when yourbook goes live, and this can
still.
This is one of those things.
This can still.
This still applies to somebody.
If you already have books out,and we say this all the time.
Each book release is a way to dothings better, to do things
more strategically.
You get a nice do-over, you getto bring what you've learned in
the meantime and apply it tothis next book.
(08:32):
But having somewhere for peopleto connect with you and to
learn about you in addition toyour book's retail page, where
they are essentially theiroption there is to just buy it
and to trust you makes such abig difference.
So to Penny's point having yourwebsite up and running, getting
that looking clean, having somesort of social media presence
(08:53):
if you plan on being there, youknow having a newsletter that
they can sign up for, all thosethings that make you look like
you showed up, prepared matter,and that is all part of your
brand.
You know what people are ableto find and see that you've put
out into the world above andbeyond just your book.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, exactly, and I think the other reason why I I
mean I like this for all thereasons that we talked about,
but one of the other reasonsthat I like doing brand
marketing and I particularly, Ilike doing starting to do it
early.
If you're going to make yourmistakes and we're all going to
make mistakes when we're get you, when we're getting out there,
even if it's your second orthird or fourth book, and I
(09:32):
don't care, like everything ischanging all the time, so we're
all kind of relearning things Ifyou're going to make your
mistakes, make them before thebook is out.
You know what I mean.
Make them before you're onstage with this book and you're
like, you know, and it's yourbook launch day and you're like,
oh my gosh, I don't know whatto post on social media.
Start to get your feet wetearly.
(09:54):
And that's really where brandmarketing can help.
And it also kind of helps tofine tune your message, what
you'll get a sense of whatpeople are resonating with, what
they're not resonating with,because otherwise you're you
know, your book hits launch dayand now you're starting that
process and sometimes it cantake, you know, months before
(10:17):
you really know what has somesort of stickiness to it and
that's one of the reasons whysometimes you'll go to writers
conferences or maybe even inyour writers group and you'll
talk to authors and they'll say,oh, you know what I wish I knew
with my second book, I wish Iknew with my first book, but I
know with my second, and that alot of that is just because you
(10:39):
your first book.
It tends to be like yourtraining wheels, right.
So I mean, if you have the timesix months if you have a
six-month window and there's alot of debate, amy and you and I
have this conversation a lot oftimes when we're building
proposals there's a lot ofdebate in how early you should
start marketing your book.
And if you have a nonfictionbook you have, your options are
(11:06):
a little bit larger because youmight want to start doing some
early pitching to businessmagazines or women's magazines
or something like that.
But if you have a fiction bookdoing that kind of early
pitching, I mean fine, if youhave a publisher that's doing it
.
But if your book isn't comingout for six months and you know
(11:29):
a lot of those outlets don'tnecessarily need that long of a
window to read.
You know, to read a book Likenobody's to-be-read pile is
generally six months out.
But some of the things that youcan start doing six months out
like, for example, I'll talk toauthors who have had their book
out for a year and they nevereven started a mailing list.
(11:50):
Get a mailing list started, getit up on your website You're
going to say to me, penny, if wewere sitting in the same room
you'd say, yeah, that's fine,but I don't have anybody to send
it to.
I don't care, get in the habit,start to get that.
Get the experience of having amailing list, sending out a
newsletter and you know, yourfirst newsletter may go out to
(12:12):
three people and one of them isyour mom.
It doesn't matter.
You really want to start to formthose habits as early as you
can in the process, because anemail list and again, we did a
whole show on newsletters andwhatnot and we don't have to get
(12:33):
into that right now but anemail list will benefit you in
tremendous ways.
You just have to figure outwhat you're going to talk about
and that's not as hard as youthink it is.
It just may take some trial anderror.
I mean, when we first had ournewsletter, amy, and you
remember this, we were sendingit out.
I think we were sending it outevery week or so.
I'm just so crazy.
Yeah, I know that, like now,amy's all triggered and she.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
But, penny, I love what you said about you know,
people coming like I don't haveanybody to send it to, and you
mentioned maybe there's justthree people I, you know, I kind
of had this moment when youwere saying that going you know
what.
That's so true, because we talkabout super fans, we talk about
building relationships, we talkabout the reader experience all
the time and it so matters, andwe don't talk enough about
(13:18):
those OG followers, like thosefirst 10 people that signed up
for your newsletter.
You should be treating themlike gods.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Like, do not make them wait until you feel like
there's enough people to listento you to make it worth your
time.
Yeah, you know, those first 10,first 20, like those are your
people, that you have thepotential to turn into somebody
that will buy every single bookthat you put out.
Right, that's exactly so.
(13:51):
I don't know why.
It just hit me that we've neverI don't think we've ever talked
about it in those like directterms before.
You know, because we have, likeyou're right, we've done shows
on newsletters, we've done showson all these things that you
can do early.
But, you know, sometimesdiscussing them in different
ways clicks for people, and Ithink that's one thing that we
need to remember that when youhave those small groups of
(14:12):
people that you feel like, oh mygosh, that's a lot of work for
a small group of people, butthose small groups of people
could be your best people.
Yeah, yeah, you know so.
Don't neglect those smallgroups of people, those few
followers on Instagram, thosefew people that have signed up
for your website.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
If anything, put a lot of TLC into those people
marketing is, and those of youlistening who have had a book
out for a while, you know thatbeing an author takes practice.
(14:50):
I mean not necessarily writingthe book, although there's that,
but being an author out in theworld takes practice, right,
it's not easy to show up andjust all of a sudden, this
author persona and then if youlayer onto that that maybe
you're writing under a pen name,it's like oh, who am I?
(15:10):
Everybody's like their booklaunches and everybody's having
an identity crisis, right.
But the brand marketing window,that time ahead of your book
launch, is something that youmay think.
Well, I really want to reachout for endorsements and I want
to, you know, reach out and do.
I want to get early blurbs andall of those things are great
(15:33):
and you could do those, whetheryou're fiction or nonfiction.
But getting your, you know,using that time to get your
training wheels off and makingthose kinds of connections,
because the other reason why Ilike to talk a lot I do talk a
lot about networking when itcomes to brand marketing,
(15:54):
because that's such a huge partof it.
But I'm and it's really, youknow, when you, if you're, doing
the marketing on your own andeverybody should be engaged in
their own success.
If you're doing some or all ofthe marketing on your own and
you want to go out and you wantto pitch people, it's much, much
(16:15):
, much harder to pitch a coldcontact rather than somebody who
has seen you comment on their,their stuff and social Yep, you
know, because you build sort oflike that virtual relationship.
So I think you know there'shopefully I mean maybe I want to
turn it over to you, but I meanI think hopefully anybody in
any stage of wherever you are,you can use this brand marketing
(16:39):
guidance to help you kind offigure out, because it's not
always easy to find your way asan author Like I get it but
really focusing on brandmarketing can help you find your
sea legs, find your voice andreally figure out how you're
showing up as an author Right,and I think also to the brand
marketing.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
So much of marketing happens behind the scenes.
Yeah, you know, I think itoften sounds like when you say
marketing it always sounds likethings that you're putting out
into the world, and obviously weall know that's kind of a given
.
But so much of what we do forour clients happens behind the
scenes.
First, you know like there isso much that goes on before
(17:18):
anything leaves the door, and soI think that's another thing to
always remember, as you'relistening to different shows and
we talk about marketing indifferent ways that a lot of it
is behind the scenes.
And it's not always just theputting out of things, it's the
work that you put in behind thescenes to build to getting to
the point where it's time to putsomething out there.
(17:39):
So you know, like Pennymentioned getting your
newsletter started, just gettingin the practice of doing that.
But that also applies toinfluencers.
Start following them, Startdoing your market research.
You know, engage with them.
Like Penny said, it's a loteasier to pitch somebody that
you've been engaging with whenthere's a chance that they might
(17:59):
have seen one of your commentsor the fact that you shared
something.
That's a huge deal.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, you know it's a huge deal.
And then I would also say thatyou know part of your networking
should also be getting to knowother authors in your market and
building those relationships,because, I'm telling you, the
author community is extremelygenerous with their help and
(18:25):
their information.
So, getting to know otherauthors, especially if you're a
newbie, getting to know otherauthors out there in your genre
and just starting to networkwith them and follow them and
support them we should all besupporting each other in our
work.
That is something that youcould be doing all the time and
it takes virtually no effort.
So there's no.
Even if the rest of the stuff,you're like oh, I don't want to
(18:46):
do an email list, whatever, likeI get it, follow your, follow
authors in your communitybecause that's something,
because you also learn from themand they might help to inspire
ideas and new ideas to help torefresh your marketing.
You know, writing is such anisolating profession that even
you know giving, giving authorsadvice and saying, oh, just, you
(19:07):
know, network and get out onsocial media and whatever that.
If you're not going to writersconferences, if you don't have a
writers group, if you don'thave a local writers community,
that is something that canreally help to expand your,
expand your knowledge, expandyour connections and expand your
area of influence too, right.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And here's one for everybody that doesn't have a
time constraint.
We talk about this a lot.
We've done shows on all thethings you can be doing, but
it's worth noting here thatdoing guest blogs, getting on
podcasts, collaborations whetheryou're fiction or if it's an
industry collaboration, gettinginvolved in speaking events,
(19:50):
things like that the things thatyou can do that support your
message in your brand, in yourbook, that are above and beyond
your book, that is all part ofyour brand building too.
It's so important to do thoseextra things again because
otherwise, like we talked aboutat the beginning, all you're
(20:11):
really doing is shoving a bookdown somebody's throat and
saying buy it, buy it, buy it,buy it.
These other things that you cando to get yourself out there
whether it's fiction and it'sjust a part of being a part of
the communities and getting infront of the right people, or if
it's nonfiction and you're apart of a specific industry that
you can also get involved withmore all of that is going to
(20:33):
support both your book and yourbook sales in really big ways.
I think a lot of authors wouldbe surprised, penny, at how many
sales can come in from thosethings that you do that aren't
just your book marketing.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I mean, let'sface it, a lot of authors I mean
for those of you listeningagain, as Amy said, who already
have a book out figure out whereyou kind of fit into this and
make pieces of this work for you.
But I think a lot of authorsreally hate book marketing.
I mean I hate marketing my book.
I hate marketing my book,changing the mindset on that and
turning this into kind of adifferent way of thinking.
(21:12):
And I think a lot of timesauthors hate book marketing
because they hate the rejectionwhich, believe me, I get it.
Because there's a lot ofrejection in, like pitching,
like you don't always hear frompeople and write you back, and
you know what I mean.
You feel like you're justthrowing everything out down the
black hole Like I get it, butbrand marketing feels I don't
know.
I think for a lot of authors italso feels much more authentic
(21:34):
too.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Right, it's less about direct sales.
It's more about buildingconnections and less about
selling.
Even though the sales believeit or not, like I just said,
those are actually.
Those will come from brandmarketing as well, and they're
actually a huge part of youroverall sales potential is your
brand marketing.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Well, and I think the other thing, and maybe the
biggest piece of this that wesort of left for the last part,
is that brand marketing whetheryou do it before the book comes
out or you do it after the bookcomes out will really help you
to define your reader.
And it's amazing to me how manyauthors still launch a book
(22:20):
without knowing who their readeris.
Authors still launch a bookwithout knowing who their reader
is Like kind of blows my mindRight, but sometimes it's
because they haven't done thework of really figuring out who
their reader is before.
Like a lot of times, I thinkbooks are written through a
stream of creativity Like youhave this great idea and you
(22:41):
want to write this book, and I,as an author myself, through a
stream of creativity.
Like you have this great ideaand you want to write this book,
and I, as an author myself, Icompletely appreciate that.
But you got to know who you'retalking to.
You have to know where theyhang out, and doing some of this
early work will really help youto figure that out and you may
get to a point where you're justlike, oh my gosh, I thought my
reader was here and my readerreally hangs out here.
(23:01):
You know what I mean.
But again, those are the kindsof, those are the kind of
mistakes that can cost a lot ofmoney if you're, if you're in
the throes of marketing yourbook and you know, running ads
or to the wrong group orsomething like that defining
your reader.
We've done whole shows on that.
So if you're new to thispodcast, definitely circle back
(23:22):
through some of our, becausewe've been doing this for five
years.
We definitely have shows ondefining your reader, but that's
, I think, also extremelyimportant.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Oh yeah.
You know, that is some of myfavorite part of I mean the
psychology behind it.
Hopefully that doesn't scareanybody off, but I find it
fascinating and it's cool tomake all those connections and
start connecting those dots.
I think it should also make youfeel a lot more confident in
when you actually are doing yourmarketing and brand marketing,
knowing who you're speaking to,versus yelling into the void,
(23:55):
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, which is, I think, where a lot of authors
kind of feel like they just feellike they're sort of yelling
into a void and again kind offeel like they just feel like
they're sort of yelling into avoid and again I get it.
It's very noisy out there.
I completely appreciate this,but this is something that I
think anybody can do at any time.
Ideally, you've done it beforethe book launches.
(24:16):
Consider using this timeconstructively to get out there
and start, you know, making yourplace in the world, as they say
, and getting to know what it'slike to, you know, to be an
author.
So I want to thank everybodywho bought my book.
Speaking of selling books,thank you all so much for buying
my book and all the support.
(24:37):
I've gotten so many emails frompeople saying I love your work.
Really, really, really means somuch to me, because that's why
I do it, and we have a couple ofreally really cool
summer-focused shows coming up.
So we're actually going torerun some summer-focused shows,
I think, over the July 4thholiday.
(24:58):
So be looking for those likehow to turn your book into a
summer read and and summer booksfor kids and things like that.
So definitely be on the lookoutfor those.
We love reviews wherever youlisten to podcasts.
We want to know whoever youreviewed, we want to know which
is which.
So please let us know.
Um, who's the annoying?
Um, little big sister, littlesister, whatever that was, and
(25:22):
we really we have.
We have so many questions.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We will see you next time.
Bye-bye.
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sanseviery andAmy Cornell, and so, first off,
we have so many questions.
We just got another review.
We love reviews, by the way.
Thank you so so much.
So Petective I wanted to sayPet Detective, but Petective, I
(00:22):
think, is.
So.
Petective wrote a review andsaid that they really love the
show Five stars Yay us.
Sometimes they sound like aknow-it-all older sister and her
annoying best friend.
We want to know who is who.
Like, we don't mind that.
You said that, because I findit hilarious.
I do too.
I'm pretty sure that I'm theannoying best friend.
(00:43):
I think that I'm the annoyingbest friend.
I think that I'm the annoyingone.
Not that Amy's a know-it-all,but I mean I just think no, but
I would love to hear the.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
it was an awesome review.
It made me laugh, which is abonus you know.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, it made me laugh too.
So thank you so much for thereview, but now you have to
impart, but you have to email usinfo at amarketingexpertcom and
let us know who is who.
We just really want to know,because we've been going back
and forth on this and I thoughtit was hilarious.
Thank you so much for listening.
We love that and we lovereviews.
We always ask for them, soleave us a review.
We have so many questions aboutthis one in particular.
(01:21):
I hope whoever wrote thatreview will let us know, because
that will help to solve thatmystery.
So in last week's show oh, andwe just recorded a show that hit
on launch day of my book, theAmazon Author Formula Workbook.
So the workbook is now out,both paperback and e-book.
(01:43):
Super excited about that.
But we hinted at this showpreviously because we did a show
on brand marketing versus bookmarketing.
I think it was maybe two orthree years ago, so after five
years sometimes it's good toredo certain shows and in that,
during that episode, we talkedabout the importance of brand
(02:06):
marketing and in the context ofthe show, in the show today,
what we're talking about aroundbrand marketing came up during a
conversation, during manyconversations that we have had,
Amy and I have had with authorsabout my book isn't out for a
month or three months or sixmonths or whatever.
(02:26):
I want to be doing something.
What can I be doing?
And that's where the brandmarketing conversation comes in.
But brand marketing issomething, as an author, you
should be doing all the time.
Now you're probably listeningto this You're like, oh my gosh,
and now I have to do bookmarketing and brand marketing
and we're going to break it alldown for you.
But brand marketing isimportant.
(02:49):
As you are moving through theprocess of either getting ready
to get your book out into theworld and or doing things to
market your book, Brandmarketing should always be a
consideration.
I mean, right, Amy?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
your book.
Brand marketing should alwaysbe a consideration.
I mean, right, amy?
Yeah, I mean, the brandmarketing is really what keeps
the momentum going in betweenreleases, because I'm sure
anybody listening if you doalready have a book out and
you've done book marketing canlike relate to the fact that
it's like I feel like there'sonly so much time and so many
ways I can talk about my bookover and over and over again,
right, and so I think that'salso where the brand marketing
(03:27):
is kind of a bonus in terms ofother things you can focus on in
different ways to literallypromote your brand without just
shoving your book down people'sthroats all the time, because we
talk to our clients all thetime that that's what they feel
like they're doing, you know,especially on social media, in
their newsletter.
It's like I feel like I'malways just saying the same
(03:48):
thing over and over again and itfeels like insanity.
And that's where brandmarketing can kind of give you a
break from just like literallyshoving your book down their
throats and focusing on someother really unique ways to
connect with readers and to givethem a better experience and
all those good things.
And, as Penny mentioned, this issomething that came from
(04:11):
authors that reach out to uswell in advance of their books.
That's what really started this.
But for anybody listening whoalready has books out, please
insert yourself wherever itmakes sense in all of our
recommendations.
So, even if we may bementioning timelines and things
like that, just know you can doany of these things at any point
and it will definitely help you.
(04:32):
So this is not one of thosethings where, if you haven't
done this already and you'repast that, it's off the table
for you.
That's not it at all.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Right, exactly, Well, and so part of it is, too, that
we oftentimes yes, I think alot of times authors feel like,
oh my gosh, I feel like I'm justout there pandering my book all
the time is really kind of testdriving all of the things
(05:09):
involved in who you are as anauthor.
So that's your social mediaportals.
That's getting on there andgetting your feet wet in, you
know, Instagram or Facebook orTikTok or wherever you feel like
you're going to be.
Maybe you're going to be in allthree places.
It is starting, you know, it'sobviously it's taking your
website out for a test drive.
(05:29):
It's building your newsletterlist.
But probably the most importantpart of brand marketing, to my
mind, is networking.
So the best time to network iswhen you don't have anything to
sell, which I know sounds alittle counterintuitive to
networking.
But when you don't haveanything to sell, you will
(05:52):
listen more than you speaktypically, right?
So you think about, like, whenyou go to a networking event or
something, you're just out thereto kind of meet people and you
don't really have anything like,oh, my book is not out for six
months and you're just trying toget to know people.
The same thing is true.
When you're networking online,your goal is to get to know
(06:13):
voices in your industry, soinfluencers and people who are
reviewers and people who aretalking about, who have a voice
in the industry, who are talkingabout your topic.
And by getting to know them,what I mean is starting to
(06:33):
follow them, commenting on theirposts, sharing their posts
whenever appropriate, and thisis one of the reasons why the
brand marketing piece issomething that you can carry
through even well after yourbook is out, because that
networking piece of it willalways benefit you, you know, as
you move through the.
(06:55):
You know the marketing process.
The other reason why I likenetworking is because and yes,
you can certainly hire a companylike us to help you market your
book, but I really like.
So one of the things that we dowith our authors is we
encourage them.
Whenever a reviewer asks for aprint book, we encourage our
(07:16):
authors to mail the print bookdirectly to that influencer or
that reviewer and put in alittle note or something.
Those are now relationships.
That's a relationship that youhave, that you can foster
through other book titles.
Networking is so important, animportant part of your author
career, that I think it'ssomething that you should really
(07:38):
always be doing.
I mean Amy what do?
you think?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I agree.
And another point that we hadon here too, penny, was that
Amazon is busy, it's noisy.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
There's a lot going on.
Most authors are going to be alittle disappointed when the
book finally shows up on Amazonand there isn't this big party,
there's not this like justimmediate onslaught of sales.
It just doesn't happen thatquickly anymore.
But you can kind of speed upthat process If you have
(08:11):
something established when yourbook goes live, and this can
still.
This is one of those things.
This can still.
This still applies to somebody.
If you already have books out,and we say this all the time.
Each book release is a way to dothings better, to do things
more strategically.
You get a nice do-over, you getto bring what you've learned in
the meantime and apply it tothis next book.
(08:32):
But having somewhere for peopleto connect with you and to
learn about you in addition toyour book's retail page, where
they are essentially theiroption there is to just buy it
and to trust you makes such abig difference.
So to Penny's point having yourwebsite up and running, getting
that looking clean, having somesort of social media presence
(08:53):
if you plan on being there, youknow having a newsletter that
they can sign up for, all thosethings that make you look like
you showed up, prepared matter,and that is all part of your
brand.
You know what people are ableto find and see that you've put
out into the world above andbeyond just your book.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, exactly, and I think the other reason why I I
mean I like this for all thereasons that we talked about,
but one of the other reasonsthat I like doing brand
marketing and I particularly, Ilike doing starting to do it
early.
If you're going to make yourmistakes and we're all going to
make mistakes when we're get you, when we're getting out there,
even if it's your second orthird or fourth book, and I
(09:32):
don't care, like everything ischanging all the time, so we're
all kind of relearning things Ifyou're going to make your
mistakes, make them before thebook is out.
You know what I mean.
Make them before you're onstage with this book and you're
like, you know, and it's yourbook launch day and you're like,
oh my gosh, I don't know whatto post on social media.
Start to get your feet wetearly.
(09:54):
And that's really where brandmarketing can help.
And it also kind of helps tofine tune your message, what
you'll get a sense of whatpeople are resonating with, what
they're not resonating with,because otherwise you're you
know, your book hits launch dayand now you're starting that
process and sometimes it cantake, you know, months before
(10:17):
you really know what has somesort of stickiness to it and
that's one of the reasons whysometimes you'll go to writers
conferences or maybe even inyour writers group and you'll
talk to authors and they'll say,oh, you know what I wish I knew
with my second book, I wish Iknew with my first book, but I
know with my second, and that alot of that is just because you
(10:39):
your first book.
It tends to be like yourtraining wheels, right.
So I mean, if you have the timesix months if you have a
six-month window and there's alot of debate, amy and you and I
have this conversation a lot oftimes when we're building
proposals there's a lot ofdebate in how early you should
start marketing your book.
And if you have a nonfictionbook you have, your options are
(11:06):
a little bit larger because youmight want to start doing some
early pitching to businessmagazines or women's magazines
or something like that.
But if you have a fiction bookdoing that kind of early
pitching, I mean fine, if youhave a publisher that's doing it
.
But if your book isn't comingout for six months and you know
(11:29):
a lot of those outlets don'tnecessarily need that long of a
window to read.
You know, to read a book Likenobody's to-be-read pile is
generally six months out.
But some of the things that youcan start doing six months out
like, for example, I'll talk toauthors who have had their book
out for a year and they nevereven started a mailing list.
(11:50):
Get a mailing list started, getit up on your website You're
going to say to me, penny, if wewere sitting in the same room
you'd say, yeah, that's fine,but I don't have anybody to send
it to.
I don't care, get in the habit,start to get that.
Get the experience of having amailing list, sending out a
newsletter and you know, yourfirst newsletter may go out to
(12:12):
three people and one of them isyour mom.
It doesn't matter.
You really want to start to formthose habits as early as you
can in the process, because anemail list and again, we did a
whole show on newsletters andwhatnot and we don't have to get
(12:33):
into that right now but anemail list will benefit you in
tremendous ways.
You just have to figure outwhat you're going to talk about
and that's not as hard as youthink it is.
It just may take some trial anderror.
I mean, when we first had ournewsletter, amy, and you
remember this, we were sendingit out.
I think we were sending it outevery week or so.
I'm just so crazy.
Yeah, I know that, like now,amy's all triggered and she.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
But, penny, I love what you said about you know,
people coming like I don't haveanybody to send it to, and you
mentioned maybe there's justthree people I, you know, I kind
of had this moment when youwere saying that going you know
what.
That's so true, because we talkabout super fans, we talk about
building relationships, we talkabout the reader experience all
the time and it so matters, andwe don't talk enough about
(13:18):
those OG followers, like thosefirst 10 people that signed up
for your newsletter.
You should be treating themlike gods.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Like, do not make them wait until you feel like
there's enough people to listento you to make it worth your
time.
Yeah, you know, those first 10,first 20, like those are your
people, that you have thepotential to turn into somebody
that will buy every single bookthat you put out.
Right, that's exactly so.
(13:51):
I don't know why.
It just hit me that we've neverI don't think we've ever talked
about it in those like directterms before.
You know, because we have, likeyou're right, we've done shows
on newsletters, we've done showson all these things that you
can do early.
But, you know, sometimesdiscussing them in different
ways clicks for people, and Ithink that's one thing that we
need to remember that when youhave those small groups of
(14:12):
people that you feel like, oh mygosh, that's a lot of work for
a small group of people, butthose small groups of people
could be your best people.
Yeah, yeah, you know so.
Don't neglect those smallgroups of people, those few
followers on Instagram, thosefew people that have signed up
for your website.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
If anything, put a lot of TLC into those people
marketing is, and those of youlistening who have had a book
out for a while, you know thatbeing an author takes practice.
(14:50):
I mean not necessarily writingthe book, although there's that,
but being an author out in theworld takes practice, right,
it's not easy to show up andjust all of a sudden, this
author persona and then if youlayer onto that that maybe
you're writing under a pen name,it's like oh, who am I?
(15:10):
Everybody's like their booklaunches and everybody's having
an identity crisis, right.
But the brand marketing window,that time ahead of your book
launch, is something that youmay think.
Well, I really want to reachout for endorsements and I want
to, you know, reach out and do.
I want to get early blurbs andall of those things are great
(15:33):
and you could do those, whetheryou're fiction or nonfiction.
But getting your, you know,using that time to get your
training wheels off and makingthose kinds of connections,
because the other reason why Ilike to talk a lot I do talk a
lot about networking when itcomes to brand marketing,
(15:54):
because that's such a huge partof it.
But I'm and it's really, youknow, when you, if you're, doing
the marketing on your own andeverybody should be engaged in
their own success.
If you're doing some or all ofthe marketing on your own and
you want to go out and you wantto pitch people, it's much, much
(16:15):
, much harder to pitch a coldcontact rather than somebody who
has seen you comment on their,their stuff and social Yep, you
know, because you build sort oflike that virtual relationship.
So I think you know there'shopefully I mean maybe I want to
turn it over to you, but I meanI think hopefully anybody in
any stage of wherever you are,you can use this brand marketing
(16:39):
guidance to help you kind offigure out, because it's not
always easy to find your way asan author Like I get it but
really focusing on brandmarketing can help you find your
sea legs, find your voice andreally figure out how you're
showing up as an author Right,and I think also to the brand
marketing.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
So much of marketing happens behind the scenes.
Yeah, you know, I think itoften sounds like when you say
marketing it always sounds likethings that you're putting out
into the world, and obviously weall know that's kind of a given
.
But so much of what we do forour clients happens behind the
scenes.
First, you know like there isso much that goes on before
(17:18):
anything leaves the door, and soI think that's another thing to
always remember, as you'relistening to different shows and
we talk about marketing indifferent ways that a lot of it
is behind the scenes.
And it's not always just theputting out of things, it's the
work that you put in behind thescenes to build to getting to
the point where it's time to putsomething out there.
(17:39):
So you know, like Pennymentioned getting your
newsletter started, just gettingin the practice of doing that.
But that also applies toinfluencers.
Start following them, Startdoing your market research.
You know, engage with them.
Like Penny said, it's a loteasier to pitch somebody that
you've been engaging with whenthere's a chance that they might
(17:59):
have seen one of your commentsor the fact that you shared
something.
That's a huge deal.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, you know it's a huge deal.
And then I would also say thatyou know part of your networking
should also be getting to knowother authors in your market and
building those relationships,because, I'm telling you, the
author community is extremelygenerous with their help and
(18:25):
their information.
So, getting to know otherauthors, especially if you're a
newbie, getting to know otherauthors out there in your genre
and just starting to networkwith them and follow them and
support them we should all besupporting each other in our
work.
That is something that youcould be doing all the time and
it takes virtually no effort.
So there's no.
Even if the rest of the stuff,you're like oh, I don't want to
(18:46):
do an email list, whatever, likeI get it, follow your, follow
authors in your communitybecause that's something,
because you also learn from themand they might help to inspire
ideas and new ideas to help torefresh your marketing.
You know, writing is such anisolating profession that even
you know giving, giving authorsadvice and saying, oh, just, you
(19:07):
know, network and get out onsocial media and whatever that.
If you're not going to writersconferences, if you don't have a
writers group, if you don'thave a local writers community,
that is something that canreally help to expand your,
expand your knowledge, expandyour connections and expand your
area of influence too, right.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And here's one for everybody that doesn't have a
time constraint.
We talk about this a lot.
We've done shows on all thethings you can be doing, but
it's worth noting here thatdoing guest blogs, getting on
podcasts, collaborations whetheryou're fiction or if it's an
industry collaboration, gettinginvolved in speaking events,
(19:50):
things like that the things thatyou can do that support your
message in your brand, in yourbook, that are above and beyond
your book, that is all part ofyour brand building too.
It's so important to do thoseextra things again because
otherwise, like we talked aboutat the beginning, all you're
(20:11):
really doing is shoving a bookdown somebody's throat and
saying buy it, buy it, buy it,buy it.
These other things that you cando to get yourself out there
whether it's fiction and it'sjust a part of being a part of
the communities and getting infront of the right people, or if
it's nonfiction and you're apart of a specific industry that
you can also get involved withmore all of that is going to
(20:33):
support both your book and yourbook sales in really big ways.
I think a lot of authors wouldbe surprised, penny, at how many
sales can come in from thosethings that you do that aren't
just your book marketing.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I mean, let'sface it, a lot of authors I mean
for those of you listeningagain, as Amy said, who already
have a book out figure out whereyou kind of fit into this and
make pieces of this work for you.
But I think a lot of authorsreally hate book marketing.
I mean I hate marketing my book.
I hate marketing my book,changing the mindset on that and
turning this into kind of adifferent way of thinking.
(21:12):
And I think a lot of timesauthors hate book marketing
because they hate the rejectionwhich, believe me, I get it.
Because there's a lot ofrejection in, like pitching,
like you don't always hear frompeople and write you back, and
you know what I mean.
You feel like you're justthrowing everything out down the
black hole Like I get it, butbrand marketing feels I don't
know.
I think for a lot of authors italso feels much more authentic
(21:34):
too.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Right, it's less about direct sales.
It's more about buildingconnections and less about
selling.
Even though the sales believeit or not, like I just said,
those are actually.
Those will come from brandmarketing as well, and they're
actually a huge part of youroverall sales potential is your
brand marketing.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Well, and I think the other thing, and maybe the
biggest piece of this that wesort of left for the last part,
is that brand marketing whetheryou do it before the book comes
out or you do it after the bookcomes out will really help you
to define your reader.
And it's amazing to me how manyauthors still launch a book
(22:20):
without knowing who their readeris.
Authors still launch a bookwithout knowing who their reader
is Like kind of blows my mindRight, but sometimes it's
because they haven't done thework of really figuring out who
their reader is before.
Like a lot of times, I thinkbooks are written through a
stream of creativity Like youhave this great idea and you
(22:41):
want to write this book, and I,as an author myself, through a
stream of creativity.
Like you have this great ideaand you want to write this book,
and I, as an author myself, Icompletely appreciate that.
But you got to know who you'retalking to.
You have to know where theyhang out, and doing some of this
early work will really help youto figure that out and you may
get to a point where you're justlike, oh my gosh, I thought my
reader was here and my readerreally hangs out here.
(23:01):
You know what I mean.
But again, those are the kindsof, those are the kind of
mistakes that can cost a lot ofmoney if you're, if you're in
the throes of marketing yourbook and you know, running ads
or to the wrong group orsomething like that defining
your reader.
We've done whole shows on that.
So if you're new to thispodcast, definitely circle back
(23:22):
through some of our, becausewe've been doing this for five
years.
We definitely have shows ondefining your reader, but that's
, I think, also extremelyimportant.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Oh yeah.
You know, that is some of myfavorite part of I mean the
psychology behind it.
Hopefully that doesn't scareanybody off, but I find it
fascinating and it's cool tomake all those connections and
start connecting those dots.
I think it should also make youfeel a lot more confident in
when you actually are doing yourmarketing and brand marketing,
knowing who you're speaking to,versus yelling into the void,
(23:55):
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, which is, I think, where a lot of authors
kind of feel like they just feellike they're sort of yelling
into a void and again kind offeel like they just feel like
they're sort of yelling into avoid and again I get it.
It's very noisy out there.
I completely appreciate this,but this is something that I
think anybody can do at any time.
Ideally, you've done it beforethe book launches.
(24:16):
Consider using this timeconstructively to get out there
and start, you know, making yourplace in the world, as they say
, and getting to know what it'slike to, you know, to be an
author.
So I want to thank everybodywho bought my book.
Speaking of selling books,thank you all so much for buying
my book and all the support.
(24:37):
I've gotten so many emails frompeople saying I love your work.
Really, really, really means somuch to me, because that's why
I do it, and we have a couple ofreally really cool
summer-focused shows coming up.
So we're actually going torerun some summer-focused shows,
I think, over the July 4thholiday.
(24:58):
So be looking for those likehow to turn your book into a
summer read and and summer booksfor kids and things like that.
So definitely be on the lookoutfor those.
We love reviews wherever youlisten to podcasts.
We want to know whoever youreviewed, we want to know which
is which.
So please let us know.
Um, who's the annoying?
Um, little big sister, littlesister, whatever that was, and
(25:22):
we really we have.
We have so many questions.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We will see you next time.
Bye-bye.
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