October 17, 2025 • 39 mins
Hate refreshing your Amazon rank only to feel stuck? We walk through a saner, smarter way to measure progress—one that puts you back in control of your author career. Instead of chasing daily sales blips, we focus on the data you can influence: podcast bookings, media hits, website traffic spikes, newsletter clicks, and the kind of social engagement that signals real interest. Along the way, we share how to build a simple marketing journal that captures what you did, when you did it, and what happened next, so you can repeat what works and ditch what doesn’t.
We also get honest about the myths that drain energy. Amazon rankings are noisy; follower counts can be hollow; daily review checks erode morale. The better path is tracking visibility and engagement that compounds: comments and shares over likes, replies and click‑throughs over opens alone, and local wins that build trust fast. We dive into practical ways to use Google Analytics to spot post‑placement traffic, test subject lines that drive action, and turn lead magnets and bonus content into measurable signals. Plus, Goodreads strategies and why targeted communities often outperform broad blasts.
If you’ve ever asked, “Am I doing the right things?” this conversation offers a roadmap. Sales will come—on their schedule—not because of one big splash, but because your visibility stacked up over time.
Want to shape future topics or get tailored advice? Text the word podcast to 888-402-8940 to subscribe and send your questions. If this helped, follow the show, share it with an author friend, and leave an honest review—we’re pushing for 100 and cheering you on.
📱Text Penny & Amy: send us your show feedback, burning marketing questions and new topic ideas!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the book marketing tips
and author success podcast.
This is Penny Sansember and AmyCornell.
And so first up, we're superstoked.
We have their um we've we'vejust launched the ability to
text us.
And um, Amy, do you want to kindof explain how that works and uh
(00:25):
how to how to text Amy andPenny?
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Yes, it's all the details are in the show notes in
terms of the number, but you cantext the word podcast to our
number, and that will besubscribe.
And then once you're subscribed,you can actually submit
questions, you know, lightfulmoments, frustrations, episode
ideas, topic ideas, things likethat.
So anything like if you've beenlistening, because I do this
(00:49):
when I listen to podcasts allthe time, if there have been
times where you're listening toa show and you're like talking
at us while we are speaking andyou're listening to the episode
and you're like, I wish theywould cover this, or I would ask
them this right now if I could,those kind of things, please
text us those.
Yeah.
There's so much we can do withthis.
We will make sure to incorporateas much of what you send us into
(01:12):
future episodes.
So that's also really fun too.
So if you do text us an idea, aquestion, anything like that,
Penny and I will make a point.
Once those start rolling in,we're going to start working
those into our episodes goingforward and addressing some of
those whenever we can.
So that's also a fun element ofthis, is that you'll get to hear
us kind of bring up yourfeedback or your comments or
(01:33):
your questions.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
I'm really excited about this.
So text the word podcast to8888-402-8940.
So that number again,888-402-8940.
And it, as Amy said, it's in theshow notes.
So you should, if you didn'thave something to write with,
um, if you're listening to us onthe go or cleaning house or
(01:56):
whatever, it's in the shownotes.
So you can definitely grab itthere.
But we love your ideas.
And and part of the reason why Iam so excited about this is
because it was a great, we'vebuilt a lot of shows around
your, you know, listener ideasand challenges that they face
and things like that.
But this gives you a muchquicker, I think, and
potentially more efficient wayto drop some of your ideas and
(02:20):
your show feedback to us.
So we hope you'll use it.
We're really excited about it.
I um we've already gotten acouple um folks that are even
just in early days that we thatwe launched this.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youguys are so smart.
You're reading the show notes,you're finding out all the
things.
So we're we're always reallyexcited to hear hear from you.
This idea, speaking of ideasthat come from listeners, this
(02:41):
idea was actually an idea thatwas sent to us about um data.
And you know, the thing about sowe've never really done a show.
Well, actually, we've never donea show on um how to track book
sales.
Because if you've listened to usfor any length of time and we've
(03:02):
had the show for five years, sothose of you who are long-term
listeners, you know this.
We never go down the slipperyslope of here's how many books
that you're gonna sell if you doXYZ strategy.
Sorry, Amy, did you just passout?
unknown (03:16):
I know, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I know, and you know, when Amyfirst sent me this idea, because
she actually developed it, I waslike, I was, I have to say, as
you know, Amy, I was a littlebit lukewarm because I was like,
uh, this sounds so scary.
But it's really very differentfrom it, it it's gonna
(03:41):
challenge, I think, how a lot ofauthors feel about tracking book
sales slash data, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:49):
Yeah, tracking just in general, because that is
essentially the the gist of whatour clients said is that, you
know, I'm I'm a data person.
And so I want to know I'm doingall the right things where I
feel like I am.
How do I know that it's payingoff in ways that are beyond just
sales?
(04:10):
Because I will say, at leastthis client is very much, they
realize this is a long game, youknow, they're building their
brand, they're building theirplatform.
This is an author that isbooking speaking engagements and
things like that.
And so they know that there's somuch more going on and they have
many different goals outside ofjust sales alone, but they were
very smart to say, I'm a dataperson.
How can I make that work for mein terms of improving what I'm
(04:33):
doing for my marketing andthings like that?
And we've got, you know, we'vegot someone on the team that is
very much a data person.
She would love to make Excelsall day long.
I'm probably not even using theright terms.
And for what it's worth, talkabout converting, you know,
someone because I am notnecessarily a data person in
that regard.
So I was even surprised thatwhen we started outlining this
(04:55):
episode, I'm like, this isactually super useful because
I'm not the target market forthis, but it even it even
surprised me and got me on boardwith this is actually something
that could benefit a lot ofauthors.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Right, exactly.
And you know, I mean, look, thethe relatable truth is that we
all love tracking book sales.
Okay.
We love checking our KDP stats.
We as a as an author, I can tellyou that firsthand.
I'm like, let me see what, youknow, um, how many books did I
hit at launch and things likethat.
But as a marketing firm, salesare really just a snapshot of a
(05:34):
bear story.
And the other challenge withsales, with tracking sales, is
they generally don't, there'sthey generally don't happen on
top of something, right?
So you did an interview, let'ssay you did a podcast, and you
immediately after recording thepodcast, you hop on to Amazon to
(05:57):
check your to check your salesrank, and you're gonna be, well,
maybe you'll be disappointed,but it's probably you're
probably not gonna see a bump init.
So what we're really talkingabout today is the data points
that you should, you know, thedata points that you should be
tracking um to track your authorbrand progress, as well as what
(06:21):
we encourage you to stopobsessing over.
Um, and then the other piece ofit is that this data will also
show you where and how to planyour next move.
One thing that I want to say aswe start out with this is, and I
know I've talked about this onthe podcast before.
I've certainly put it in mybooks.
(06:43):
Keep a marketing journal.
Keep a marketing journal aboutwhat you did.
And I'll dig into in a minutewhy and it's useful and and uh
how it's useful.
Um, part of the other thingthough, too, Amy, that we've
seen is sales is a little bitmisleading, right?
Because they, you know, salestypically, and I just mentioned
(07:04):
this a minute ago, don't happenon top of whatever is going on.
Part of the reason for that, Ithink, is just because, you
know, maybe it didn't land theway maybe the interview didn't
land the way that you had hopedit would.
Okay, so that's possible.
But the other piece is that ourlistening and viewering habits
have changed.
(07:25):
Right.
The majority of us don't listen,read, watch on top of I mean,
there are certain exceptions tothat, but on top of something
being released.
SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
Right.
Well, and this is something thatwe've said all the time.
Just because you can't controlwhen sales happen, don't doesn't
mean they're not going tohappen.
Right.
It's it's not like a vendingmachine where it's like, I do
this, I get this back.
That is not how book marketingworks because people are going
to buy your book.
You know, if you write infiction, a lot of times people
are going to buy a new book whenthey need a new book, quite
(08:02):
literally.
unknown (08:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:03):
You know, that's how it works.
And then if you writenonfiction, people buy
nonfiction when they are readyto make the next move.
Typically, people buy nonfictionwhen they're looking to solve a
problem, fix something, learnsomething, but they really need
to be ready to take action.
And so that doesn't, that'snothing against what you're
doing.
You could be doing everythingright.
And that person is still notgoing to pick up your book until
(08:25):
they are ready to make that nextmove.
But that is why marketing is soimportant because you need to be
the book that is staying top ofmind.
So when they're ready, you'rethe first person they think of.
Yeah.
But in order to stay on trackwith that visibility, that is
where, you know, tracking, likePenny said, keeping a journal of
what you're doing, tracking someof the data points that do make
(08:46):
sense that show you that you'remaking progress.
So you know that even thoughsales may come in unpredictably
and in waves that you can't makesense of, which is fine because
that's how it typically works,you can still feel confident
that what you're doing is movingthe needle and pushing you
forward.
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
And I think that it's really important.
So the first piece of this istrack your visibility metrics.
Okay.
So track, so if you're bookingyourself on podcasts, track how
many podcasts that you've beenbooked on and keep track of also
when they air, because typicallya podcast will record, but not
necessarily air on the same datethat you record.
(09:24):
And sometimes I know there'ssome podcasts are live, but some
of the newsy podcasts are live,but majority of them are not.
Okay.
So um media coverage um isanother one to track as well.
You know, how much mediacoverage, when did it hit?
Um, and and what falls underkind of the media.
I mean, media coverage umbrellacould could also be blog
(09:46):
features and um influenceroutreach and you know, those
kinds of things.
Um and also I think how yoursocial media has grown.
So a lot of times authors don'ttrack social media because I
know it feels I realize it feelsa little discouraging sometimes
(10:08):
to track social media, but andAmy, I know we'll talk in a
second about the engagementmetrics, but tracking where you
started is gonna really show youif you're on the right track.
Um and I think the final onereally is so website traffic.
We did a whole show on SEO thatyou can that you can find in our
(10:30):
feed.
So we don't want to spend a hugeamount of time on website
traffic and search and SEO beingsearch engine optimization.
But I think that having GoogleAnalytics on your website is a
really smart move and to trackspikes after, like, say, for
example, after you that podcasthit or after you did an event or
(10:50):
after you you were featured in ain a particular newspaper, Mac
article, whatever, is alsoreally good to get a sense of
where, you know, again, and Ihate to keep using this phrase,
but how something landed withthe audience, right?
Did your interview land in sucha way that the that the person
(11:10):
listening, viewing whatever,wanted to click and go to your
website?
Was your call to action strongenough at the end of whatever
interview that you did to getpeople to your website?
And maybe they just went toAmazon and look, that's fine.
Like some people would just goto, especially like if you've
written fiction.
So a lot of times, you know, youmay say, Well, look, I have all
(11:32):
this stuff on my website and youcan visit my website, et cetera.
But if somebody is reallycompelled and they like, oh my
gosh, this book sounds great,they may go straight to Amazon,
and that's fine, right?
That's going to be a little bitobviously that's gonna be on the
back end of your KDB or howeveryou track sales on Amazon, but
that's not specifically whatwe're talking about here.
We're talking about how has yourvisibility expanded and your
(11:56):
author brand expanded in thework that you're doing.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Right.
I think that's such a goodpoint, Penny.
You know, it's about can youmake sense of what's happening
after you put in the effort?
And that is not, like we said,it's not always going to be
immediate sales.
Right.
Those come, but you can'tcontrol that.
You know, so what you control isputting yourself out there and
(12:20):
then watching how, you know, andeven to your point about
tracking what you're doing,tracking who you're pitching.
If you are getting better andputting in the effort to improve
your pitch, to improve yourelevator pitch, we did an
episode on that.
If you are actively trying topresent yourself in a better,
more positive, more interestingway to the world, you are going
(12:41):
to start seeing more conversionson, well, like I used to be
pitching 20 people and I'd belucky to hear from one.
And now even my response rate isbetter, my interest rate is
better when I reach out topeople.
That is huge, and you shouldcelebrate those kind of wins as
well because that matters.
That kind of feedback showspeople are interested.
And I think a lot of authorsdon't give themselves enough
(13:02):
credit for the fact that theyare getting that interest
because not everybody gets that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
Yeah, that's very true.
And and you know, I think thatthe other piece of this though,
too, is that um, and before wetalk about the before you talk
about the engagement stuff, isthat sales typically, I mean,
you know, I I've had authors askme, how many books do you think
that I could sell potentiallyfrom this one placement?
(13:28):
Right.
Sales typically don't happen ontop of one great thing that
happened.
Okay, so you got a podcast, yougot an interview, you did an
event, whatever that is.
Sales typically don't happen,you know, on top of a singular
event.
Book sales are cumulative, andthat's what I tell authors all
(13:50):
the time.
But the the accumulation ofvisibility is the thing that
sells books.
And that's part of the reasonwhy this episode is so important
because you've got to track yourvisibility.
If you're not tracking yourvisibility, then and you're just
tracking your book sales, it's alittle bit backwards.
(14:11):
What?
What were you gonna say?
I said sad.
Right, but it's you know whatI'm saying?
And that's a lot of times whathappens is so sometimes like
I'll get on the phone with anauthor and I'll say, Well, what
have you done so far to marketyour book?
And sometimes authors rattlethat off, and other times they
say, I haven't really done much,which I get, I totally
understand, because it's aconfusing landscape out there.
(14:34):
And then sometimes they'll say,Well, I've done a lot of stuff,
but I don't really remembereverything just because I was so
fast and furious.
And again, I understand that youfeel the pressure, like, oh, the
book is out, I have to do abunch of stuff.
Keeping track of it, not to likepound the journal conversation
into the ground, whichapparently I think maybe I've
already done, but um keep trackof everything because that is
(14:56):
one of the best ways to know.
Also, the other piece of itthough, too, and I guess I'll
just jump right into this iswhen something works, you want
to know what you did to make itwork.
Right, right.
Hugely important.
Like, oh my gosh, I did this.
And sometimes I've had authorson the phone tell me this, and
that's actually what inspiredthis whole years ago, me having
(15:20):
this conversation abouttracking, you know, a marketing
journal.
I did this one thing and it wasso great.
And just this one thing, and Isold 500 books in an hour.
And I'm like, what was that onething?
Oh, I don't remember.
And I felt really bad becauseI'm like, if you remembered, you
could recreate it, potentially.
(15:42):
I mean, sometimes like you justget like something happens and
boom, right?
Um, so anyway, that's I will Iknow I've been blah, blah, blah
talking a lot, and you shouldjust shut me up.
But let's talk a little bitabout engagement.
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Yeah, no, I mean, but I think what you're saying
is definitely valid.
And to that point, sorry, nowI'm doing it, but to that point,
Penny, it also keeps you ontrack so you don't make
knee-jerk decisions to just dropsomething before it has a chance
to work for you, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (16:10):
Yeah, we see that a lot.
That's a really, really, reallygood point.
I and that would be somethingthat, you know, um, if there's
time in this episode to to to gointo, because a lot of times
authors drop like it didn't hitright out of the gate, and all
of a sudden they've just like,well, I'm I'm done with that
now.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
It yeah, it it's it takes more TLC than that.
So engagement metrics, whatwe're talking about here, and
these are really great becausethis also shows this is kind of
that next level of peopleputting in the effort.
I I like to categorize it asthat.
You know, people are putting inmore effort to engage with you,
(16:47):
which is huge and should not betaken lightly.
So, for example, if you're onLinkedIn and you're posting
things, you want to look atcomments and shares more than
just likes, because anybodylistening that uses social media
knows how easy it is to get inlike that muscle memory where
you're scrolling and liking andscrolling and liking.
And it's like, how much of thatdo you actually remember if
(17:07):
somebody gave you a quiz fiveminutes later?
Not a lot.
So those comments and thoseshares, that is next level
engagement.
Those kind of things are huge.
That's a huge difference.
If you're on, again, if you'reusing social media and that is a
metric that you want to starttracking.
Are you posting content that isencouraging your followers to
(17:28):
comment more often or share,depending on the platform,
versus just getting the likes,because that's huge.
Email opens and click rates.
You know, if you're doing anewsletter, we've done shows on
that, you should have anewsletter.
I won't preach on that rightnow, but definitely track that
data.
Pretty much unless you're justsending it from your Gmail
address.
And even then, Gmail, there areoffice/slash business solutions
(17:52):
for Gmail that are reallyaffordable.
So this is not, you know, not anad, but still, if you're not
using a big CRM platform foryour newsletter and you're just
using your email, there are waysto do that as well.
But definitely track that data.
Check your open rate, check yourclick rate, check your
unsubscribe rate, even becausewe use all that kind of data to
tell us is this working?
(18:12):
Is this the kind of contentpeople like?
You really got to think aboutit.
Uh obviously, direct messages orreplies.
And we mentioned thispreviously, you know, the
response rate to your pitching,as that gets better, you should
celebrate that.
That is a huge deal.
If you're actually gettingresponses, because most people,
if they're not interested, theysimply delete.
(18:34):
They delete the email.
Like, do not expect people torespond until you thank you, but
no, thank you.
That's not really a thing.
So the fact that somebody's evenbothering to respond is huge and
you are automatically put in ahigher tier than somebody that's
not even getting responses.
So that's another win.
I know these don't seem like it,but it's like, wow, these really
(18:55):
are.
These are huge wins.
Um, if you happen to do webinarsor if you have a function on
this is probably more, you know,appropriate for nonfiction, but
if you have a function on yourwebsite where you actually
actively get people to engage,whether it's a poll or maybe a
free download, or I've seenplenty of authors that do audio
clips on their websites, Penny,you know, that have like play
(19:17):
this.
Uh oh, we worked with an authorat one point that had some cool
meditations on their website soyou can download or play their
like that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
That was so cool.
But pay attention to that kindof data too.
How much are people using allthese extra features and cool
content that you're putting outthere?
You should always, we've done alot of shows on creating bonus
content, creating other ways toget people engaged with your
brand above and beyond yourbook.
And it's always really smart toensure you have some form or
(19:46):
some way to track how muchpeople are taking advantage of
that.
Yeah.
You know, because it's great toput out free content, but if you
don't know if people are usingit, then what is that telling
you?
How is that moving the needle?
You know, it's it's reallytough.
But again, increase innewsletter signups.
And a lot of this comes withthinking about, and we say it
(20:06):
all the time, if you have anidea or if you have a new
feature, if you have somethingto offer, if something great
happened to you, challengeyourself to use it or to promote
it in three different ways.
You know, so if you have anewsletter, are you sh are you
making sure that that newsletteris getting out there and that
sign up option is out there inthree different ways on your
platform somehow?
(20:28):
You know, it's on your website,but it are you linking to it in
your social media?
Are you mentioning it on, youknow, your LinkedIn?
Are you trying to encouragepeople to sign up for it on your
LinkedIn?
Things like that, you know.
So the engagement, it's not justset it and forget it, but you
know, really put the effort intoensuring you're putting yourself
(20:49):
out there and being smart aboutit because those those metrics
are going to tell you thatyou're on the right track.
SPEAKER_00 (20:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I agree with that.
I think that it's um, and youknow what's interesting is that
to your point about the uh, youknow, about the the pitches of
getting responded to, I I'veseen this even in my speaker
topics.
So if I have a top, so you know,I I change try to change up my
(21:17):
topics every year as bookmarketing changes.
I had one topic, and we actuallydid a show on this, how to
market your book without socialmedia.
Hugely popular.
It was crazy how many requests Igot for that topic.
You will, as you continue toexplore different things that
really resonate.
And this is part of this, isalso I think it really just
(21:38):
resonated with authors, right?
As you start to exploredifferent topics, different
pitches, different, like didthat email newsletter subject
line land?
Did it not?
Did people open it?
That's part of the reason whytracking is so important because
that's where that's where youstart to really build your
(22:00):
sales, you know.
So I think I mean conversionsignals we touched on a lot of
this stuff in both of our bothof our segments, Amy.
I I don't know that there is alot to add as opposed to jumping
(22:20):
into kind of the things that weshould be paying less attention
to.
SPEAKER_01 (22:25):
Um, I think we covered a lot of this
organically just by, but I thinkthe Goodreads one was another
was a one that I should haveincluded in mine.
Um, Goodreads, you know, shelfads, responses to commentary or
putting in groups, things likethat.
You know, I in my brain,Goodreads is social media.
(22:47):
It's just for readers andauthors specifically, but in my
head, it's all the same.
But a lot of people don't thinkof Goodreads as social media.
So for what it's worth, youknow, get on Goodreads.
And that is also a really greatplace to get some really target
market engagement, you know,with with the exact right
(23:07):
readers.
It's so much more focused thanon than most social media
platforms.
So uh that is a that's a big onethat I recommend.
If you're social media averse,um Goodreads is still a good
place to be.
SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I think the finalthing is we talked a lot about
like media coverage and andobviously that can be national
or or it can be local, but I I'mbecause I'm finishing up my book
on local local book marketing.
So I'm I'm a little bithyper-local focused.
I think that it's also good,even in a separate section, like
(23:40):
all these things should haveseparate sections in your in
your um your mark your bookmarketing journal, but how many
local connections are you makingis another really because
authors oftentimes we overlookthe you know, mining your local
market, but that's alsosomething that I think um is a
really good idea to to you knowto use to measure.
(24:03):
And sometimes local metrics areeasier to get, local hits are
easier to get than they arenational.
So that could potentiallyincrease your um visibility and
then obviously your engagement,you know, your engagement
metrics.
So I think, and then I thinkthat the things to watch less is
so I know that when we put thislist together, okay, so Amazon
(24:24):
ranking with Lash, like we'veall done it.
I get it.
I've watched my Amazon salesrank like a stock market junkie.
It's not, it's not it's not agood mental space to be in.
So just stop doing it.
I say this as somebody who is arecovering Amazon ranking, like
I would be on there all thetime, oh look at this.
And you know, that's not to saythat when I release my next
(24:45):
book, like I'm gonna, I'm notgonna do it because it's just,
you know, it's just it's kind ofit's kind of what we do, but
don't let that determine whetheror not something's working.
Because as we said at the onsetof this episode, sales, there's
a sales, there's a sales leg notjust in when somebody sees your
article, podcast, open yournewsletter, whatever, but
there's also a we, you know, theAmazon sales ranking system is
(25:07):
also weird.
So let's just, you know.
Um social, you know, I mean,social likes, I think that's a
really tough one because youwant to get people.
I mean, I think that that yoursocial media will show what
resonates versus what doesn't.
So I do think that, I mean, andAmy, feel free to push back if
(25:28):
you disagree.
I do think that your socialreach is part of your likes,
right?
Because not everybody's gonnashare your stuff all the time.
Right.
But I think likes and commentsin terms of, you know, that I I
I I think that matters.
I mean, I know we have it on thelist that that doesn't really
(25:49):
matter.
And when we were in the greenroom, I didn't spot that, but I
I think it matters.
Do you agree or disagree?
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
Yeah, I think it just kind of goes back to, you
know, we were talking about thesocial media part that on a lot
of platforms, sometimes it justbecomes muscle memory for
people.
And it doesn't mean they'reactually, you know, if you quiz
them later, are they gonnaremember that they like
something of yours?
Right.
Are they gonna remember that itwas that author with that book
that they potentially might wantto read?
(26:17):
But so I think that's kind ofwhat's the gist of what to watch
less of is that just becauseyou're getting lots of likes
doesn't necessarily mean that'snot everything.
So I mean, really likes aregreat, but you really want to
focus on ensuring you're puttingout content that gets shares or
(26:37):
saves or replies, just comments,even.
Even a comment is just reallyfantastic.
And then the it's a quality overquantity thing, I think.
You know, because like we say,when you're pitching
influencers, just because theyhave a boatload of followers
doesn't necessarily mean thatthose followers are your people.
And then at that point, why doesit matter?
SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
Yeah, that's very that's really, you know, and
this is something that we've hadendless, we've done a ton of
shows on this.
The follower count obsession isa myth, right?
So I would rather have somebody,I would rather have an Instagram
quote unquote influencer featureme who has 500 followers and
they're all commenting andthey're all active versus you
(27:18):
know, 10 million, where youknow, 80% of them are just bots.
And you could remember you canbuy followers for anything.
I have people emailing me allthe time, like, oh, we saw your
Instagram.
We can build you more followers.
I'm like, no, thanks.
Right.
Right?
Because yeah, we've known we hadan author who did that actually
(27:41):
on their Facebook page, and Iforget now what the number was.
This was years ago, but theybought it was like 78,000
followers on their Facebookpage, right?
And they were like, they came tous and they were like, Well, I
don't get a lot of responses onmy Facebook page.
And I think Amy, who's verygood, like if you ever want to
hire a detective, you shouldreach out to Amy.
(28:04):
Um, Amy went on and deep divedon their Facebook page and
looked at some of theirfollowers.
And I'm sorry, but they werenot, I'm just gonna put this
really nicely, they were notlegitimate followers.
Like they were not no, it wasscary.
It was very, very, very scary.
So this person ended up havingto like burn their Facebook
(28:25):
page, all 78,000 just down tothe ground and start over again,
which is a very painfulconversation to have.
Not to go down a rabbit hole,which I realize I already did.
Now I'm trying to claw my wayback, but follower count
obsession can lead to problems.
So just you know.
Um, and you know, the otherthing though, too, is like I
have a ton of followers on mypersonal Facebook page.
(28:47):
Like I got, I just had abirthday.
I must have gotten, and Amy,this is just gonna make you
crazy, but I must have gottenlike, I don't know, 300 birthday
messages from people, andliterally like 95% of them have
no idea who they are.
That's special.
unknown (29:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Felt super warm and fuzzy.
So I but you know, I mean, Ishare a lot of I do, I share
author memes, I share a lot ofstuff, but I also share a lot of
really fun, funny stuff becausethat's kind of my vibe on my
personal page, right?
Um, so yeah, follower counts.
I would I would try to steerclear of that.
(29:26):
Um daily review counts.
Amy, do you want to take thisone?
Because I this is my personalfavorite, and I'm totally being
facetious right now.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
Yeah, reviews are tough.
I realize, I mean, everybodylistening by now knows you need
lots of reviews until the end oftime.
As many reviews as you can get.
There's no such thing as toomany reviews.
But at the same time, this iskind of along with the sales.
You cannot predict, you cannotforce people to review your
book, but you can do a lot ofthings proactively that
(29:59):
absolutely.
Absolutely, do lead to betterreview conversions.
And so this kind of goes back toa lot of what we said throughout
the episode is that you reallyhave to be doing the right
things.
And then once you're doing that,you can start tracking, like,
okay, like Penny said in thejournal, and we're gonna talk
about we will talk about thisbefore the show closes, but
about the importance of thatconsistency and being able to
(30:20):
say, wow, I've been doing X, Y,and Z for six months, and I
actually ended up doubling myreviews.
It's like that is when you startknowing things are working.
Yeah.
Can't just say, like, I'vegotten you know, especially when
there's like, I don't haveenough reviews.
And sometimes I not that we liketo have the sales conversation,
but I would love to find thestatistics, Penny, on like what
(30:42):
the typical percentage or theratio of reviews to sales really
is because it's like, well,you're it's not a one-to-one.
We know that, right?
unknown (30:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Yeah, like that would be ideal.
That would be amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yes.
We know it's not a one-to-one.
So that's also something to keepin mind is that one, you have to
be putting in the effort anddoing the right things to
proactively engage with peopleto make it easy for them to
review.
That's a huge part of it.
We've done shows on this.
Maybe we can revisit it again ina future episode.
But once you start doing theright things, that's when you
can keep track and start seeing,you know, that, oh, this really
(31:17):
does lead to more reviews.
I need to do this moreconsistently.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Exactly.
Um, so the the the homework.
So I know we're now we're gonnawe're gonna give you all
homework.
Amy, do you wanna do it?
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
It's fun homework.
I mean, if you made it this farin the episode, you had to have
expected a little bit ofhomework, otherwise you would
have shut us off, you know,five, 10 minutes ago.
But so for your homework, pickthree metrics that you'll track
for the next 30 days.
Right.
Like not sales metrics, butliterally anything else we've
talked about, or maybe somethingthat's super specific to your
brand and your platform thatyou've done to put yourself out
(31:53):
there or to make available topotential readers or people in
your buyer market.
But commit to tracking them andseeing how that is improving for
you as you're putting in theeffort, you know.
Yeah.
And then at the end of themonth, you know, you can look
(32:15):
back and you say, okay, look,this is what I've been doing.
Have I seen any spikes?
I mean, candidly, I think 30days is a little short.
I mean, I guess it kind of goeshand in hand.
It really depends on what you'retracking, but again, no
knee-jerk reactions to this.
And it really does, if if youtake away anything from this,
the data only works if you'reputting in the effort.
(32:37):
And that doesn't mean you needto, you know, pick up marketing
as your second job, but it'sreally the consistency.
The consistency is the effort.
So if you're consistently doinghigh quality things to increase
the visibility of, you know,your brand and your book, then
that is when the data is goingto start showing you uh what
your next move should be.
Right.
(32:58):
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Um, and I mean, to that end, I I'm a huge like if
somebody people have asked meover the years, so we're um by
the time this episode actuallyhits, we will have crossed our
25th year in business, which isamazing.
Yeah, as exhaust it.
(33:21):
Alright.
But um, amazing.
I know it's really it's it'skind of mind blowing.
But people ask me all the time,they've said, you know, how are
you how do you stay stay, youknow, what's what's your secret
to longevity?
And I I will tell you the oneword is consistency.
Whatever you do, do itconsistently.
And this is a problem I know alot of times, you know, we're uh
(33:44):
it's it's a little bit likeyou're you, you know, the
squirrel, look, there's this andthen there's that, and then this
is changing, and this is new,and I have to try this, and I
get it.
The lure of the new is strongand it's very tempting.
And it's not to say that youcan't do new things, I get it,
(34:05):
but consistency in whatever youare doing.
So, like Amy said, okay, so pickthree metrics, right?
I'm gonna consistently focus onthese three things.
This is what I'm gonna focus onfor the next 30 days, 60 days,
90 days, whatever.
Whatever you do, do it withconsistency.
And it's sometimes I reallyrealize it's not always easy to
(34:25):
kind of keep the mojo becausewhen you're spending your time
watching book sales andnothing's happening, you feel
more consistent to go to thebeach or to spend the day at to
spend the day at the zoo or thecoffee shop or whatever,
anything but book marketing.
Hopefully, this has kind offlipped the script a little bit
and focusing instead on metricsthat you absolutely can control
(34:50):
to some extent.
Like you can't necessarilycontrol how many interviews you
get, but how much that you'reout there, how much have you
pitched, what's come back toyou?
Focusing on the things that arebuilding your exposure is so
much better and gonna be so muchbetter.
Uh actually, this is a mentalhealth episode now, y'all.
(35:12):
So much better for your mentalhealth and focusing on you know
on focusing on book sales.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, I would say, Imean, that's literally like
obviously, look, not toundermine Amy's just chomping at
the bed, I can already tell.
Like, we do great work.
Like, that's if we were doingshoddy work and poor work and
treating authors horribly,obviously we wouldn't make be
(35:34):
making 25 years.
But consistency is the key toyour success.
I I don't, there's no other wayto really to really put that.
And obviously, you know, put outa great book and a great cover,
and we have episodes on all ofthose.
If you want to go back, if youdon't hate us now at the end of
this episode, like, oh my gosh,they're such a best skills.
Um, Amy, what did I miss?
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
No, I think that was I think that was perfect.
I think this was I I'm glad wedid this episode because at
first when we got the wreck, wewere like, I don't know how
we're gonna talk about that.
Like, data, wow, that's thatsounds intense and scary.
Like you said at the beginningof the episode.
But truly, I'm glad that we duginto it because it is a lot of
what we say.
(36:15):
And I I like that we were ableto structure it in a way for
those of you that do like thatadditional structure of or that
are open to it, or that feellike you've been spinning your
wheels.
This episode is for you too.
If you feel like you're doingall the things but nothing's
coming back to you, maybe it'sjust a matter of tracking better
and getting a little bit moreorganized so you can celebrate
those wins along the way that wetalked about that show up in
(36:36):
different forms.
SPEAKER_00 (36:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because you might be, you mightbe, you might be really totally
surprised that you um, you know,that you've actually done a lot
and and a lot of it is is payingoff in ways that are not
necessarily directly related tobook sales.
Obviously, you want to sellbooks like we get it, but I
think um podcast spots bookedand you know, interviews and
(37:00):
things like that is a it's ait's that's that is something
that is a great, that's a greatthing to track in the shows that
you're getting out there.
And I gotta tell you, I mean,honestly, and I said this early
on, totally shot this idea down.
Amy was like, let's do an idea,let's do a show on data.
I was like, eh, we're not doingthat show.
We're not doing a show on data.
Thanks for playing.
Next, next contestant, please.
(37:20):
Um, but no, I'm glad that we didthis because I think it's an
important conversation to have,truly.
Um, so and I want to remindeverybody that um we do have a
uh it's not really a call inline, but it is a you can text
uh Amy and myself.
Text the word podcast to888-402-8940 and send us your
(37:43):
ideas, your show feedback.
Um, don't tell us that you hatedthe data episode because we'll
cry, but just kidding.
But anyway, um we we sorry, goahead.
What were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
No, I thought that was funny.
I love that.
I listen to podcasts and it'show what they always say, and
leave us a five-star review.
I'm like, wow, that's so bold.
I'm like, we're always like,please say something nice.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
I know, please say something nice.
Look, we love reviews.
I don't think it's I mean, look,I we we listen to you and I both
listen to a lot of podcasts withlike leave us a five-star
review.
I don't think that's reallyethical to say leave us a
five-star review.
Do we want five-star reviews?
10,000% we want all thefive-star reviews, but it's not
really ethical.
Leave us leave us an honestreview.
That's really the only thingthat we can ever ask.
SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
We know 99 ratings and reviews were one away.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
We are oh my gosh, we are one away.
And we got a whole and you guys,I gotta tell you, seriously, we
asked and y'all delivered.
So get us to 100 before the endof the year.
We are so excited.
By the way, if you see thatyou're the 100th review video,
could you email us and let usknow because we have something
very special for you?
(38:53):
So, anyway, I just need that outthere.
100th review, send us, let usknow, and it could be something
really fun to do.
All right, until next time.
Thank you so much for tuning in,and we'll see you next Friday.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome back to the book marketing tips
and author success podcast.
This is Penny Sansember and AmyCornell.
And so first up, we're superstoked.
We have their um we've we'vejust launched the ability to
text us.
And um, Amy, do you want to kindof explain how that works and uh
(00:25):
how to how to text Amy andPenny?
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Yes, it's all the details are in the show notes in
terms of the number, but you cantext the word podcast to our
number, and that will besubscribe.
And then once you're subscribed,you can actually submit
questions, you know, lightfulmoments, frustrations, episode
ideas, topic ideas, things likethat.
So anything like if you've beenlistening, because I do this
(00:49):
when I listen to podcasts allthe time, if there have been
times where you're listening toa show and you're like talking
at us while we are speaking andyou're listening to the episode
and you're like, I wish theywould cover this, or I would ask
them this right now if I could,those kind of things, please
text us those.
Yeah.
There's so much we can do withthis.
We will make sure to incorporateas much of what you send us into
(01:12):
future episodes.
So that's also really fun too.
So if you do text us an idea, aquestion, anything like that,
Penny and I will make a point.
Once those start rolling in,we're going to start working
those into our episodes goingforward and addressing some of
those whenever we can.
So that's also a fun element ofthis, is that you'll get to hear
us kind of bring up yourfeedback or your comments or
(01:33):
your questions.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
I'm really excited about this.
So text the word podcast to8888-402-8940.
So that number again,888-402-8940.
And it, as Amy said, it's in theshow notes.
So you should, if you didn'thave something to write with,
um, if you're listening to us onthe go or cleaning house or
(01:56):
whatever, it's in the shownotes.
So you can definitely grab itthere.
But we love your ideas.
And and part of the reason why Iam so excited about this is
because it was a great, we'vebuilt a lot of shows around
your, you know, listener ideasand challenges that they face
and things like that.
But this gives you a muchquicker, I think, and
potentially more efficient wayto drop some of your ideas and
(02:20):
your show feedback to us.
So we hope you'll use it.
We're really excited about it.
I um we've already gotten acouple um folks that are even
just in early days that we thatwe launched this.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youguys are so smart.
You're reading the show notes,you're finding out all the
things.
So we're we're always reallyexcited to hear hear from you.
This idea, speaking of ideasthat come from listeners, this
(02:41):
idea was actually an idea thatwas sent to us about um data.
And you know, the thing about sowe've never really done a show.
Well, actually, we've never donea show on um how to track book
sales.
Because if you've listened to usfor any length of time and we've
(03:02):
had the show for five years, sothose of you who are long-term
listeners, you know this.
We never go down the slipperyslope of here's how many books
that you're gonna sell if you doXYZ strategy.
Sorry, Amy, did you just passout?
unknown (03:16):
I know, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I know, and you know, when Amyfirst sent me this idea, because
she actually developed it, I waslike, I was, I have to say, as
you know, Amy, I was a littlebit lukewarm because I was like,
uh, this sounds so scary.
But it's really very differentfrom it, it it's gonna
(03:41):
challenge, I think, how a lot ofauthors feel about tracking book
sales slash data, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:49):
Yeah, tracking just in general, because that is
essentially the the gist of whatour clients said is that, you
know, I'm I'm a data person.
And so I want to know I'm doingall the right things where I
feel like I am.
How do I know that it's payingoff in ways that are beyond just
sales?
(04:10):
Because I will say, at leastthis client is very much, they
realize this is a long game, youknow, they're building their
brand, they're building theirplatform.
This is an author that isbooking speaking engagements and
things like that.
And so they know that there's somuch more going on and they have
many different goals outside ofjust sales alone, but they were
very smart to say, I'm a dataperson.
How can I make that work for mein terms of improving what I'm
(04:33):
doing for my marketing andthings like that?
And we've got, you know, we'vegot someone on the team that is
very much a data person.
She would love to make Excelsall day long.
I'm probably not even using theright terms.
And for what it's worth, talkabout converting, you know,
someone because I am notnecessarily a data person in
that regard.
So I was even surprised thatwhen we started outlining this
(04:55):
episode, I'm like, this isactually super useful because
I'm not the target market forthis, but it even it even
surprised me and got me on boardwith this is actually something
that could benefit a lot ofauthors.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Right, exactly.
And you know, I mean, look, thethe relatable truth is that we
all love tracking book sales.
Okay.
We love checking our KDP stats.
We as a as an author, I can tellyou that firsthand.
I'm like, let me see what, youknow, um, how many books did I
hit at launch and things likethat.
But as a marketing firm, salesare really just a snapshot of a
(05:34):
bear story.
And the other challenge withsales, with tracking sales, is
they generally don't, there'sthey generally don't happen on
top of something, right?
So you did an interview, let'ssay you did a podcast, and you
immediately after recording thepodcast, you hop on to Amazon to
(05:57):
check your to check your salesrank, and you're gonna be, well,
maybe you'll be disappointed,but it's probably you're
probably not gonna see a bump init.
So what we're really talkingabout today is the data points
that you should, you know, thedata points that you should be
tracking um to track your authorbrand progress, as well as what
(06:21):
we encourage you to stopobsessing over.
Um, and then the other piece ofit is that this data will also
show you where and how to planyour next move.
One thing that I want to say aswe start out with this is, and I
know I've talked about this onthe podcast before.
I've certainly put it in mybooks.
(06:43):
Keep a marketing journal.
Keep a marketing journal aboutwhat you did.
And I'll dig into in a minutewhy and it's useful and and uh
how it's useful.
Um, part of the other thingthough, too, Amy, that we've
seen is sales is a little bitmisleading, right?
Because they, you know, salestypically, and I just mentioned
(07:04):
this a minute ago, don't happenon top of whatever is going on.
Part of the reason for that, Ithink, is just because, you
know, maybe it didn't land theway maybe the interview didn't
land the way that you had hopedit would.
Okay, so that's possible.
But the other piece is that ourlistening and viewering habits
have changed.
(07:25):
Right.
The majority of us don't listen,read, watch on top of I mean,
there are certain exceptions tothat, but on top of something
being released.
SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
Right.
Well, and this is something thatwe've said all the time.
Just because you can't controlwhen sales happen, don't doesn't
mean they're not going tohappen.
Right.
It's it's not like a vendingmachine where it's like, I do
this, I get this back.
That is not how book marketingworks because people are going
to buy your book.
You know, if you write infiction, a lot of times people
are going to buy a new book whenthey need a new book, quite
(08:02):
literally.
unknown (08:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:03):
You know, that's how it works.
And then if you writenonfiction, people buy
nonfiction when they are readyto make the next move.
Typically, people buy nonfictionwhen they're looking to solve a
problem, fix something, learnsomething, but they really need
to be ready to take action.
And so that doesn't, that'snothing against what you're
doing.
You could be doing everythingright.
And that person is still notgoing to pick up your book until
(08:25):
they are ready to make that nextmove.
But that is why marketing is soimportant because you need to be
the book that is staying top ofmind.
So when they're ready, you'rethe first person they think of.
Yeah.
But in order to stay on trackwith that visibility, that is
where, you know, tracking, likePenny said, keeping a journal of
what you're doing, tracking someof the data points that do make
(08:46):
sense that show you that you'remaking progress.
So you know that even thoughsales may come in unpredictably
and in waves that you can't makesense of, which is fine because
that's how it typically works,you can still feel confident
that what you're doing is movingthe needle and pushing you
forward.
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
And I think that it's really important.
So the first piece of this istrack your visibility metrics.
Okay.
So track, so if you're bookingyourself on podcasts, track how
many podcasts that you've beenbooked on and keep track of also
when they air, because typicallya podcast will record, but not
necessarily air on the same datethat you record.
(09:24):
And sometimes I know there'ssome podcasts are live, but some
of the newsy podcasts are live,but majority of them are not.
Okay.
So um media coverage um isanother one to track as well.
You know, how much mediacoverage, when did it hit?
Um, and and what falls underkind of the media.
I mean, media coverage umbrellacould could also be blog
(09:46):
features and um influenceroutreach and you know, those
kinds of things.
Um and also I think how yoursocial media has grown.
So a lot of times authors don'ttrack social media because I
know it feels I realize it feelsa little discouraging sometimes
(10:08):
to track social media, but andAmy, I know we'll talk in a
second about the engagementmetrics, but tracking where you
started is gonna really show youif you're on the right track.
Um and I think the final onereally is so website traffic.
We did a whole show on SEO thatyou can that you can find in our
(10:30):
feed.
So we don't want to spend a hugeamount of time on website
traffic and search and SEO beingsearch engine optimization.
But I think that having GoogleAnalytics on your website is a
really smart move and to trackspikes after, like, say, for
example, after you that podcasthit or after you did an event or
(10:50):
after you you were featured in ain a particular newspaper, Mac
article, whatever, is alsoreally good to get a sense of
where, you know, again, and Ihate to keep using this phrase,
but how something landed withthe audience, right?
Did your interview land in sucha way that the that the person
(11:10):
listening, viewing whatever,wanted to click and go to your
website?
Was your call to action strongenough at the end of whatever
interview that you did to getpeople to your website?
And maybe they just went toAmazon and look, that's fine.
Like some people would just goto, especially like if you've
written fiction.
So a lot of times, you know, youmay say, Well, look, I have all
(11:32):
this stuff on my website and youcan visit my website, et cetera.
But if somebody is reallycompelled and they like, oh my
gosh, this book sounds great,they may go straight to Amazon,
and that's fine, right?
That's going to be a little bitobviously that's gonna be on the
back end of your KDB or howeveryou track sales on Amazon, but
that's not specifically whatwe're talking about here.
We're talking about how has yourvisibility expanded and your
(11:56):
author brand expanded in thework that you're doing.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Right.
I think that's such a goodpoint, Penny.
You know, it's about can youmake sense of what's happening
after you put in the effort?
And that is not, like we said,it's not always going to be
immediate sales.
Right.
Those come, but you can'tcontrol that.
You know, so what you control isputting yourself out there and
(12:20):
then watching how, you know, andeven to your point about
tracking what you're doing,tracking who you're pitching.
If you are getting better andputting in the effort to improve
your pitch, to improve yourelevator pitch, we did an
episode on that.
If you are actively trying topresent yourself in a better,
more positive, more interestingway to the world, you are going
(12:41):
to start seeing more conversionson, well, like I used to be
pitching 20 people and I'd belucky to hear from one.
And now even my response rate isbetter, my interest rate is
better when I reach out topeople.
That is huge, and you shouldcelebrate those kind of wins as
well because that matters.
That kind of feedback showspeople are interested.
And I think a lot of authorsdon't give themselves enough
(13:02):
credit for the fact that theyare getting that interest
because not everybody gets that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
Yeah, that's very true.
And and you know, I think thatthe other piece of this though,
too, is that um, and before wetalk about the before you talk
about the engagement stuff, isthat sales typically, I mean,
you know, I I've had authors askme, how many books do you think
that I could sell potentiallyfrom this one placement?
(13:28):
Right.
Sales typically don't happen ontop of one great thing that
happened.
Okay, so you got a podcast, yougot an interview, you did an
event, whatever that is.
Sales typically don't happen,you know, on top of a singular
event.
Book sales are cumulative, andthat's what I tell authors all
(13:50):
the time.
But the the accumulation ofvisibility is the thing that
sells books.
And that's part of the reasonwhy this episode is so important
because you've got to track yourvisibility.
If you're not tracking yourvisibility, then and you're just
tracking your book sales, it's alittle bit backwards.
(14:11):
What?
What were you gonna say?
I said sad.
Right, but it's you know whatI'm saying?
And that's a lot of times whathappens is so sometimes like
I'll get on the phone with anauthor and I'll say, Well, what
have you done so far to marketyour book?
And sometimes authors rattlethat off, and other times they
say, I haven't really done much,which I get, I totally
understand, because it's aconfusing landscape out there.
(14:34):
And then sometimes they'll say,Well, I've done a lot of stuff,
but I don't really remembereverything just because I was so
fast and furious.
And again, I understand that youfeel the pressure, like, oh, the
book is out, I have to do abunch of stuff.
Keeping track of it, not to likepound the journal conversation
into the ground, whichapparently I think maybe I've
already done, but um keep trackof everything because that is
(14:56):
one of the best ways to know.
Also, the other piece of itthough, too, and I guess I'll
just jump right into this iswhen something works, you want
to know what you did to make itwork.
Right, right.
Hugely important.
Like, oh my gosh, I did this.
And sometimes I've had authorson the phone tell me this, and
that's actually what inspiredthis whole years ago, me having
(15:20):
this conversation abouttracking, you know, a marketing
journal.
I did this one thing and it wasso great.
And just this one thing, and Isold 500 books in an hour.
And I'm like, what was that onething?
Oh, I don't remember.
And I felt really bad becauseI'm like, if you remembered, you
could recreate it, potentially.
(15:42):
I mean, sometimes like you justget like something happens and
boom, right?
Um, so anyway, that's I will Iknow I've been blah, blah, blah
talking a lot, and you shouldjust shut me up.
But let's talk a little bitabout engagement.
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Yeah, no, I mean, but I think what you're saying
is definitely valid.
And to that point, sorry, nowI'm doing it, but to that point,
Penny, it also keeps you ontrack so you don't make
knee-jerk decisions to just dropsomething before it has a chance
to work for you, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (16:10):
Yeah, we see that a lot.
That's a really, really, reallygood point.
I and that would be somethingthat, you know, um, if there's
time in this episode to to to gointo, because a lot of times
authors drop like it didn't hitright out of the gate, and all
of a sudden they've just like,well, I'm I'm done with that
now.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
It yeah, it it's it takes more TLC than that.
So engagement metrics, whatwe're talking about here, and
these are really great becausethis also shows this is kind of
that next level of peopleputting in the effort.
I I like to categorize it asthat.
You know, people are putting inmore effort to engage with you,
(16:47):
which is huge and should not betaken lightly.
So, for example, if you're onLinkedIn and you're posting
things, you want to look atcomments and shares more than
just likes, because anybodylistening that uses social media
knows how easy it is to get inlike that muscle memory where
you're scrolling and liking andscrolling and liking.
And it's like, how much of thatdo you actually remember if
(17:07):
somebody gave you a quiz fiveminutes later?
Not a lot.
So those comments and thoseshares, that is next level
engagement.
Those kind of things are huge.
That's a huge difference.
If you're on, again, if you'reusing social media and that is a
metric that you want to starttracking.
Are you posting content that isencouraging your followers to
(17:28):
comment more often or share,depending on the platform,
versus just getting the likes,because that's huge.
Email opens and click rates.
You know, if you're doing anewsletter, we've done shows on
that, you should have anewsletter.
I won't preach on that rightnow, but definitely track that
data.
Pretty much unless you're justsending it from your Gmail
address.
And even then, Gmail, there areoffice/slash business solutions
(17:52):
for Gmail that are reallyaffordable.
So this is not, you know, not anad, but still, if you're not
using a big CRM platform foryour newsletter and you're just
using your email, there are waysto do that as well.
But definitely track that data.
Check your open rate, check yourclick rate, check your
unsubscribe rate, even becausewe use all that kind of data to
tell us is this working?
(18:12):
Is this the kind of contentpeople like?
You really got to think aboutit.
Uh obviously, direct messages orreplies.
And we mentioned thispreviously, you know, the
response rate to your pitching,as that gets better, you should
celebrate that.
That is a huge deal.
If you're actually gettingresponses, because most people,
if they're not interested, theysimply delete.
(18:34):
They delete the email.
Like, do not expect people torespond until you thank you, but
no, thank you.
That's not really a thing.
So the fact that somebody's evenbothering to respond is huge and
you are automatically put in ahigher tier than somebody that's
not even getting responses.
So that's another win.
I know these don't seem like it,but it's like, wow, these really
(18:55):
are.
These are huge wins.
Um, if you happen to do webinarsor if you have a function on
this is probably more, you know,appropriate for nonfiction, but
if you have a function on yourwebsite where you actually
actively get people to engage,whether it's a poll or maybe a
free download, or I've seenplenty of authors that do audio
clips on their websites, Penny,you know, that have like play
(19:17):
this.
Uh oh, we worked with an authorat one point that had some cool
meditations on their website soyou can download or play their
like that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
That was so cool.
But pay attention to that kindof data too.
How much are people using allthese extra features and cool
content that you're putting outthere?
You should always, we've done alot of shows on creating bonus
content, creating other ways toget people engaged with your
brand above and beyond yourbook.
And it's always really smart toensure you have some form or
(19:46):
some way to track how muchpeople are taking advantage of
that.
Yeah.
You know, because it's great toput out free content, but if you
don't know if people are usingit, then what is that telling
you?
How is that moving the needle?
You know, it's it's reallytough.
But again, increase innewsletter signups.
And a lot of this comes withthinking about, and we say it
(20:06):
all the time, if you have anidea or if you have a new
feature, if you have somethingto offer, if something great
happened to you, challengeyourself to use it or to promote
it in three different ways.
You know, so if you have anewsletter, are you sh are you
making sure that that newsletteris getting out there and that
sign up option is out there inthree different ways on your
platform somehow?
(20:28):
You know, it's on your website,but it are you linking to it in
your social media?
Are you mentioning it on, youknow, your LinkedIn?
Are you trying to encouragepeople to sign up for it on your
LinkedIn?
Things like that, you know.
So the engagement, it's not justset it and forget it, but you
know, really put the effort intoensuring you're putting yourself
(20:49):
out there and being smart aboutit because those those metrics
are going to tell you thatyou're on the right track.
SPEAKER_00 (20:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I agree with that.
I think that it's um, and youknow what's interesting is that
to your point about the uh, youknow, about the the pitches of
getting responded to, I I'veseen this even in my speaker
topics.
So if I have a top, so you know,I I change try to change up my
(21:17):
topics every year as bookmarketing changes.
I had one topic, and we actuallydid a show on this, how to
market your book without socialmedia.
Hugely popular.
It was crazy how many requests Igot for that topic.
You will, as you continue toexplore different things that
really resonate.
And this is part of this, isalso I think it really just
(21:38):
resonated with authors, right?
As you start to exploredifferent topics, different
pitches, different, like didthat email newsletter subject
line land?
Did it not?
Did people open it?
That's part of the reason whytracking is so important because
that's where that's where youstart to really build your
(22:00):
sales, you know.
So I think I mean conversionsignals we touched on a lot of
this stuff in both of our bothof our segments, Amy.
I I don't know that there is alot to add as opposed to jumping
(22:20):
into kind of the things that weshould be paying less attention
to.
SPEAKER_01 (22:25):
Um, I think we covered a lot of this
organically just by, but I thinkthe Goodreads one was another
was a one that I should haveincluded in mine.
Um, Goodreads, you know, shelfads, responses to commentary or
putting in groups, things likethat.
You know, I in my brain,Goodreads is social media.
(22:47):
It's just for readers andauthors specifically, but in my
head, it's all the same.
But a lot of people don't thinkof Goodreads as social media.
So for what it's worth, youknow, get on Goodreads.
And that is also a really greatplace to get some really target
market engagement, you know,with with the exact right
(23:07):
readers.
It's so much more focused thanon than most social media
platforms.
So uh that is a that's a big onethat I recommend.
If you're social media averse,um Goodreads is still a good
place to be.
SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I think the finalthing is we talked a lot about
like media coverage and andobviously that can be national
or or it can be local, but I I'mbecause I'm finishing up my book
on local local book marketing.
So I'm I'm a little bithyper-local focused.
I think that it's also good,even in a separate section, like
(23:40):
all these things should haveseparate sections in your in
your um your mark your bookmarketing journal, but how many
local connections are you makingis another really because
authors oftentimes we overlookthe you know, mining your local
market, but that's alsosomething that I think um is a
really good idea to to you knowto use to measure.
(24:03):
And sometimes local metrics areeasier to get, local hits are
easier to get than they arenational.
So that could potentiallyincrease your um visibility and
then obviously your engagement,you know, your engagement
metrics.
So I think, and then I thinkthat the things to watch less is
so I know that when we put thislist together, okay, so Amazon
(24:24):
ranking with Lash, like we'veall done it.
I get it.
I've watched my Amazon salesrank like a stock market junkie.
It's not, it's not it's not agood mental space to be in.
So just stop doing it.
I say this as somebody who is arecovering Amazon ranking, like
I would be on there all thetime, oh look at this.
And you know, that's not to saythat when I release my next
(24:45):
book, like I'm gonna, I'm notgonna do it because it's just,
you know, it's just it's kind ofit's kind of what we do, but
don't let that determine whetheror not something's working.
Because as we said at the onsetof this episode, sales, there's
a sales, there's a sales leg notjust in when somebody sees your
article, podcast, open yournewsletter, whatever, but
there's also a we, you know, theAmazon sales ranking system is
(25:07):
also weird.
So let's just, you know.
Um social, you know, I mean,social likes, I think that's a
really tough one because youwant to get people.
I mean, I think that that yoursocial media will show what
resonates versus what doesn't.
So I do think that, I mean, andAmy, feel free to push back if
(25:28):
you disagree.
I do think that your socialreach is part of your likes,
right?
Because not everybody's gonnashare your stuff all the time.
Right.
But I think likes and commentsin terms of, you know, that I I
I I think that matters.
I mean, I know we have it on thelist that that doesn't really
(25:49):
matter.
And when we were in the greenroom, I didn't spot that, but I
I think it matters.
Do you agree or disagree?
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
Yeah, I think it just kind of goes back to, you
know, we were talking about thesocial media part that on a lot
of platforms, sometimes it justbecomes muscle memory for
people.
And it doesn't mean they'reactually, you know, if you quiz
them later, are they gonnaremember that they like
something of yours?
Right.
Are they gonna remember that itwas that author with that book
that they potentially might wantto read?
(26:17):
But so I think that's kind ofwhat's the gist of what to watch
less of is that just becauseyou're getting lots of likes
doesn't necessarily mean that'snot everything.
So I mean, really likes aregreat, but you really want to
focus on ensuring you're puttingout content that gets shares or
(26:37):
saves or replies, just comments,even.
Even a comment is just reallyfantastic.
And then the it's a quality overquantity thing, I think.
You know, because like we say,when you're pitching
influencers, just because theyhave a boatload of followers
doesn't necessarily mean thatthose followers are your people.
And then at that point, why doesit matter?
SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
Yeah, that's very that's really, you know, and
this is something that we've hadendless, we've done a ton of
shows on this.
The follower count obsession isa myth, right?
So I would rather have somebody,I would rather have an Instagram
quote unquote influencer featureme who has 500 followers and
they're all commenting andthey're all active versus you
(27:18):
know, 10 million, where youknow, 80% of them are just bots.
And you could remember you canbuy followers for anything.
I have people emailing me allthe time, like, oh, we saw your
Instagram.
We can build you more followers.
I'm like, no, thanks.
Right.
Right?
Because yeah, we've known we hadan author who did that actually
(27:41):
on their Facebook page, and Iforget now what the number was.
This was years ago, but theybought it was like 78,000
followers on their Facebookpage, right?
And they were like, they came tous and they were like, Well, I
don't get a lot of responses onmy Facebook page.
And I think Amy, who's verygood, like if you ever want to
hire a detective, you shouldreach out to Amy.
(28:04):
Um, Amy went on and deep divedon their Facebook page and
looked at some of theirfollowers.
And I'm sorry, but they werenot, I'm just gonna put this
really nicely, they were notlegitimate followers.
Like they were not no, it wasscary.
It was very, very, very scary.
So this person ended up havingto like burn their Facebook
(28:25):
page, all 78,000 just down tothe ground and start over again,
which is a very painfulconversation to have.
Not to go down a rabbit hole,which I realize I already did.
Now I'm trying to claw my wayback, but follower count
obsession can lead to problems.
So just you know.
Um, and you know, the otherthing though, too, is like I
have a ton of followers on mypersonal Facebook page.
(28:47):
Like I got, I just had abirthday.
I must have gotten, and Amy,this is just gonna make you
crazy, but I must have gottenlike, I don't know, 300 birthday
messages from people, andliterally like 95% of them have
no idea who they are.
That's special.
unknown (29:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Felt super warm and fuzzy.
So I but you know, I mean, Ishare a lot of I do, I share
author memes, I share a lot ofstuff, but I also share a lot of
really fun, funny stuff becausethat's kind of my vibe on my
personal page, right?
Um, so yeah, follower counts.
I would I would try to steerclear of that.
(29:26):
Um daily review counts.
Amy, do you want to take thisone?
Because I this is my personalfavorite, and I'm totally being
facetious right now.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
Yeah, reviews are tough.
I realize, I mean, everybodylistening by now knows you need
lots of reviews until the end oftime.
As many reviews as you can get.
There's no such thing as toomany reviews.
But at the same time, this iskind of along with the sales.
You cannot predict, you cannotforce people to review your
book, but you can do a lot ofthings proactively that
(29:59):
absolutely.
Absolutely, do lead to betterreview conversions.
And so this kind of goes back toa lot of what we said throughout
the episode is that you reallyhave to be doing the right
things.
And then once you're doing that,you can start tracking, like,
okay, like Penny said in thejournal, and we're gonna talk
about we will talk about thisbefore the show closes, but
about the importance of thatconsistency and being able to
(30:20):
say, wow, I've been doing X, Y,and Z for six months, and I
actually ended up doubling myreviews.
It's like that is when you startknowing things are working.
Yeah.
Can't just say, like, I'vegotten you know, especially when
there's like, I don't haveenough reviews.
And sometimes I not that we liketo have the sales conversation,
but I would love to find thestatistics, Penny, on like what
(30:42):
the typical percentage or theratio of reviews to sales really
is because it's like, well,you're it's not a one-to-one.
We know that, right?
unknown (30:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Yeah, like that would be ideal.
That would be amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yes.
We know it's not a one-to-one.
So that's also something to keepin mind is that one, you have to
be putting in the effort anddoing the right things to
proactively engage with peopleto make it easy for them to
review.
That's a huge part of it.
We've done shows on this.
Maybe we can revisit it again ina future episode.
But once you start doing theright things, that's when you
can keep track and start seeing,you know, that, oh, this really
(31:17):
does lead to more reviews.
I need to do this moreconsistently.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Exactly.
Um, so the the the homework.
So I know we're now we're gonnawe're gonna give you all
homework.
Amy, do you wanna do it?
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
It's fun homework.
I mean, if you made it this farin the episode, you had to have
expected a little bit ofhomework, otherwise you would
have shut us off, you know,five, 10 minutes ago.
But so for your homework, pickthree metrics that you'll track
for the next 30 days.
Right.
Like not sales metrics, butliterally anything else we've
talked about, or maybe somethingthat's super specific to your
brand and your platform thatyou've done to put yourself out
(31:53):
there or to make available topotential readers or people in
your buyer market.
But commit to tracking them andseeing how that is improving for
you as you're putting in theeffort, you know.
Yeah.
And then at the end of themonth, you know, you can look
(32:15):
back and you say, okay, look,this is what I've been doing.
Have I seen any spikes?
I mean, candidly, I think 30days is a little short.
I mean, I guess it kind of goeshand in hand.
It really depends on what you'retracking, but again, no
knee-jerk reactions to this.
And it really does, if if youtake away anything from this,
the data only works if you'reputting in the effort.
(32:37):
And that doesn't mean you needto, you know, pick up marketing
as your second job, but it'sreally the consistency.
The consistency is the effort.
So if you're consistently doinghigh quality things to increase
the visibility of, you know,your brand and your book, then
that is when the data is goingto start showing you uh what
your next move should be.
Right.
(32:58):
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Um, and I mean, to that end, I I'm a huge like if
somebody people have asked meover the years, so we're um by
the time this episode actuallyhits, we will have crossed our
25th year in business, which isamazing.
Yeah, as exhaust it.
(33:21):
Alright.
But um, amazing.
I know it's really it's it'skind of mind blowing.
But people ask me all the time,they've said, you know, how are
you how do you stay stay, youknow, what's what's your secret
to longevity?
And I I will tell you the oneword is consistency.
Whatever you do, do itconsistently.
And this is a problem I know alot of times, you know, we're uh
(33:44):
it's it's a little bit likeyou're you, you know, the
squirrel, look, there's this andthen there's that, and then this
is changing, and this is new,and I have to try this, and I
get it.
The lure of the new is strongand it's very tempting.
And it's not to say that youcan't do new things, I get it,
(34:05):
but consistency in whatever youare doing.
So, like Amy said, okay, so pickthree metrics, right?
I'm gonna consistently focus onthese three things.
This is what I'm gonna focus onfor the next 30 days, 60 days,
90 days, whatever.
Whatever you do, do it withconsistency.
And it's sometimes I reallyrealize it's not always easy to
(34:25):
kind of keep the mojo becausewhen you're spending your time
watching book sales andnothing's happening, you feel
more consistent to go to thebeach or to spend the day at to
spend the day at the zoo or thecoffee shop or whatever,
anything but book marketing.
Hopefully, this has kind offlipped the script a little bit
and focusing instead on metricsthat you absolutely can control
(34:50):
to some extent.
Like you can't necessarilycontrol how many interviews you
get, but how much that you'reout there, how much have you
pitched, what's come back toyou?
Focusing on the things that arebuilding your exposure is so
much better and gonna be so muchbetter.
Uh actually, this is a mentalhealth episode now, y'all.
(35:12):
So much better for your mentalhealth and focusing on you know
on focusing on book sales.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, I would say, Imean, that's literally like
obviously, look, not toundermine Amy's just chomping at
the bed, I can already tell.
Like, we do great work.
Like, that's if we were doingshoddy work and poor work and
treating authors horribly,obviously we wouldn't make be
(35:34):
making 25 years.
But consistency is the key toyour success.
I I don't, there's no other wayto really to really put that.
And obviously, you know, put outa great book and a great cover,
and we have episodes on all ofthose.
If you want to go back, if youdon't hate us now at the end of
this episode, like, oh my gosh,they're such a best skills.
Um, Amy, what did I miss?
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
No, I think that was I think that was perfect.
I think this was I I'm glad wedid this episode because at
first when we got the wreck, wewere like, I don't know how
we're gonna talk about that.
Like, data, wow, that's thatsounds intense and scary.
Like you said at the beginningof the episode.
But truly, I'm glad that we duginto it because it is a lot of
what we say.
(36:15):
And I I like that we were ableto structure it in a way for
those of you that do like thatadditional structure of or that
are open to it, or that feellike you've been spinning your
wheels.
This episode is for you too.
If you feel like you're doingall the things but nothing's
coming back to you, maybe it'sjust a matter of tracking better
and getting a little bit moreorganized so you can celebrate
those wins along the way that wetalked about that show up in
(36:36):
different forms.
SPEAKER_00 (36:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because you might be, you mightbe, you might be really totally
surprised that you um, you know,that you've actually done a lot
and and a lot of it is is payingoff in ways that are not
necessarily directly related tobook sales.
Obviously, you want to sellbooks like we get it, but I
think um podcast spots bookedand you know, interviews and
(37:00):
things like that is a it's ait's that's that is something
that is a great, that's a greatthing to track in the shows that
you're getting out there.
And I gotta tell you, I mean,honestly, and I said this early
on, totally shot this idea down.
Amy was like, let's do an idea,let's do a show on data.
I was like, eh, we're not doingthat show.
We're not doing a show on data.
Thanks for playing.
Next, next contestant, please.
(37:20):
Um, but no, I'm glad that we didthis because I think it's an
important conversation to have,truly.
Um, so and I want to remindeverybody that um we do have a
uh it's not really a call inline, but it is a you can text
uh Amy and myself.
Text the word podcast to888-402-8940 and send us your
(37:43):
ideas, your show feedback.
Um, don't tell us that you hatedthe data episode because we'll
cry, but just kidding.
But anyway, um we we sorry, goahead.
What were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
No, I thought that was funny.
I love that.
I listen to podcasts and it'show what they always say, and
leave us a five-star review.
I'm like, wow, that's so bold.
I'm like, we're always like,please say something nice.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
I know, please say something nice.
Look, we love reviews.
I don't think it's I mean, look,I we we listen to you and I both
listen to a lot of podcasts withlike leave us a five-star
review.
I don't think that's reallyethical to say leave us a
five-star review.
Do we want five-star reviews?
10,000% we want all thefive-star reviews, but it's not
really ethical.
Leave us leave us an honestreview.
That's really the only thingthat we can ever ask.
SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
We know 99 ratings and reviews were one away.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
We are oh my gosh, we are one away.
And we got a whole and you guys,I gotta tell you, seriously, we
asked and y'all delivered.
So get us to 100 before the endof the year.
We are so excited.
By the way, if you see thatyou're the 100th review video,
could you email us and let usknow because we have something
very special for you?
(38:53):
So, anyway, I just need that outthere.
100th review, send us, let usknow, and it could be something
really fun to do.
All right, until next time.
Thank you so much for tuning in,and we'll see you next Friday.
Bye bye.
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