April 11, 2025 • 38 mins
When authors dream of book marketing success, they often fixate on bestseller campaigns, major media appearances, and viral social media moments. But what if these splashy strategies are actually built on something far less glamorous yet infinitely more important?
Penny Sansevieri and Amy Cornell pull back the curtain on the unsexy side of book marketing – the foundational elements that truly drive long-term success. Through real-world examples and candid insights, they reveal why authors who chase high-level strategies while neglecting their foundation often find themselves disappointed with results, regardless of their marketing budget.
One author with a solid email list generated 7,000 reviews within 48 hours of publication, while others with significant marketing investments struggle to gain traction. The difference? A strategic approach to foundational marketing elements like optimized Amazon retail pages, professional author websites, consistent email communication, and deliberate review acquisition strategies.
"It's like inviting people to a party that you forgot to attend," Penny explains when discussing abandoned social media accounts still linked from author websites – just one example of how overlooked details undermine reader trust. The hosts debunk common misconceptions about what marketing "counts," emphasizing that buyer psychology and retail optimization are not secondary concerns but rather the bedrock of effective book promotion.
For both fiction and nonfiction authors, this episode delivers actionable insights on building a marketing foundation that supports your long-term author career rather than chasing quick fixes. Whether you're preparing for launch or wondering why your current marketing isn't delivering results, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective on what truly matters in connecting with readers.
Ready to stop building your marketing house on sand? Subscribe to the podcast, share your thoughts, or suggest future topics through our website – we love hearing from our listeners!
Buy Penny's book The Amazon Author Formula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sansevierie andAmy Cornell, and this show,
again like all of our othershows, was very much inspired by
conversations that we're havingwith authors and some of the
things that we're seeing outthere, and I know that maybe
(00:22):
this seems like a little bit ofa boring topic, but, believe me,
it absolutely matters.
It matters to your readers and,consequently, it matters to
sales.
Before we get started, though,I just want to mention that we
so I am in the final stretch ofthe Amazon Author Formula
workbook, which I'm really,really excited about, so you're
(00:42):
going to be hearing lots aboutthat.
Our listeners are going to get,um, probably, early information
first and foremost.
You guys are are amazing.
We love, by the way, hearingfrom our, from our, from our
listeners, and we get emails allthe time, and we actually just
got a review, uh, somebody whocouldn't figure out how to post
it to um, to their, to theiTunes or wherever they were
(01:07):
listening to, and we completelyunderstand that, because it's a
thing I don't understand whythey have to make this so, why
they have to make it sochallenging, but we love reviews
.
We just got another one aboutthe Kindle Unlimited show.
Amy, did you see that?
Yes, I love it.
Yes, I am so excited.
In fact, I cited that KindleUnlimited conversation with the
(01:31):
author that I spoke to thismorning.
So we try to do shows that yourequest.
We get show ideas.
We love, love, love your showideas.
Thank you so much.
We have built a lot of showsout of show ideas.
This one, in particular, wasn'tso much.
We love, love, love your showideas.
Thank you so much.
We have built a lot of showsout of show ideas.
This one in particular, wasn'tso much.
I mean, this has come out ofconversations that we have had
(01:51):
with authors, but it's also comeout of a need and we do a lot
of shows on wanting to skip theline, because it's really is a
thing and foundational marketingsounds really boring, like it's
just like it's just kind of abig yawn.
(02:12):
Can y'all just go back and talkabout Kindle Unlimited again?
Like, I get it, but a lot oftimes authors are focused on
very high level strategies, somedia are focused on very high
level strategies.
So media, bestseller campaigns,doing ads, influencer outreach
(02:33):
and things like that.
Like we had an author and Amyand I've had some back and forth
about this who literally theironly reason for hiring a
marketing firm is because theywant a bestseller campaign.
They want their book to be abestseller.
And look, I can appreciate that.
I got a mention on SandraBeckwith's blog last week and
(02:54):
for the Amazon Author Formulathe one that came out in January
of last year and that bookstarted hitting the Amazon
bestseller list got the littleflag again.
Everything's very exciting,Like I get it.
But when you're looking at thosereally long-term goals and I
realize that you say, well, butPenny, how can it be a long-term
(03:15):
goal if my book releases and Iwant to hit a bestseller list
the day that it releases or inthat week, that's not long-term,
that's immediate, but I get it,and we've done a lot of shows
on goal setting.
That's not long-term, that'simmediate, but I get it, and
we've done a lot of shows ongoal setting and that's not what
this show is about.
But this is another reason whyI'm writing another book about
(03:36):
you know, it's really it's aplanner I don't have like I know
we always tell authors like, oh, you have to know what you're
writing before you're writing it.
And I do know what I'm writing.
But as I'm putting thistogether, it's really morphing
into something that I wasn'texpecting, because when we talk
to authors about big, impressive, high-level goals, like being
(04:00):
in big media and bestsellercampaigns, which I just
mentioned being in big media andbestseller campaigns, which I
just mentioned there are so manymicro steps that come ahead of
that and we've done shows onthat.
Like at this point, amy, Ithink that we can very much say
if we're addressing a topic,there's a show for that, because
we've been doing this now forfive years.
(04:21):
But the foundational marketingis the basics, and the basics
are the things that authorsoftentimes overlook.
In fact, I just talked to anauthor not that long ago who has
a ton of books out doing allthe things and is still has no
author photo on Amazon and is agreat, is basically a gray box
(04:43):
on Amazon and it always justblows me away.
I mean right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And to your point about thebestseller campaigns, I love
that you mentioned that because,yes, that seems like a very
immediate, this needs to happennow goal, which kind of sounds
contradictory to long-term.
But to your point, penny,everything that needs to happen
to make those conversions happen, that's a lot of logistics.
It doesn't mean it takes you areally long time, but there's a
(05:10):
lot of boxes to check, and Ithink that's what gets
overlooked a lot of the times.
Right, like, oh, it'll justhappen if I focus on the
execution, that's all thatmatters.
But your retail page is wherethe sale happens, and so so much
has to go into ensuring thatonce people get there and
(05:32):
actually have a chance to buy,they want to follow through and
actually buy, and those are thethings that get missed a lot,
all those little details thatadd up to somebody actually
going okay, this seems likesomething I want to get, let me
buy this, and it sounds like avery simple thing.
But psychologically for theconsumer, a lot needs to go
right, and so there are a lot ofplaces to misstep.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, exactly, and you know, like a lot of people,
like I get it like a lot ofpeople want to cut the line, and
that's especially in the bookworld.
That's just not not, that'sjust not always possible.
And when we're talking abouthigh-level strategies, like
things like I mentioned earliermedia outreach, um, paid
advertising so amazon, facebook,instagram, tiktok, getting
(06:19):
endorsements, influencerpartnerships, endorsements book
bub deals are another big one.
So a lot of book bub deals getrejected not because the author
hasn't done a lot of work, butbecause their foundational
elements are not taken care ofRight.
(06:41):
So it really is more importantthan you think.
When an author cause I talked toan author the other day and
she's like I can't get a bookdeal to save my life and, as it
would happen, this same authoris the one who was the gray box
on Amazon.
So it all matters.
(07:03):
And, and something you know, Ihad a book person at a
conference I don't know, it waslast year or something tell me
that they pay attention toreviews, they pay attention to
everything that kind ofunderpins that book, as it were.
Right, yep, as it were, right,yep.
(07:25):
Amy, do you want to walkthrough?
Do you want to start the list.
Start powering through the listof foundational marketing and
kind of what we're thinkingabout for this show.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yes, and as we've been fully admitting, this is
typically the less sexy stuff,for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's why a lot ofauthors again think, like I can
take care of that, I'll hiresomebody for the big stuff,
which I understand where thatrationale comes from, but again
we just go back to.
It's a lot of boxes to check anda lot of them just aren't on
(07:56):
the typical individual's radaryou know what I mean Whereas
literally Penny and I live andbreathe these checkboxes every
single day.
And it's a list you know.
So, first off, optimize Amazonpage.
We've done a lot of Amazonshows, so those are available to
y'all, but it really everysingle piece matters.
And, more specifically, how youutilize all the different
(08:21):
features of your Amazon retailpage.
A lot of those get left unused,so it's amazing that we can
even say this, penny, but evennow, in this day and age,
authors that utilize all thedifferent features and functions
of their Amazon retail page arein the minority, and so those
pages really stand out toshoppers as offering more about
(08:46):
the reader experience, what thebook is about, how much time and
energy the author has spentmaking that buying experience a
positive one for the potentialreader.
All of that matters, and thoseare still those authors are
still in the very small minoritythat utilize all those features
and options.
So that is absolutely somethingthat you want to do.
I know it's like I could go onabout that forever because it is
(09:10):
so important and it's it's.
You know, technically it's all,there's no extra cost to it
anyway.
Sorry, it's like no, no, no, no.
I get on my soapbox about.
You know, it's like when Amazonlets you do something and they
don't charge you extra for it.
Take advantage of it.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
you know, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, no, you and I are both onthe same page with that.
I could go on.
I could go on for days andsometimes, like it's kind of
embarrassing like how obsessed Iam with this, because sometimes
, like I'll be talking to anauthor in a consultation and
I'll be like, oh well, you're abook page.
And they're'll say, well, Ithought we were going to talk
about marketing.
Like we are talking aboutmarketing, right.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Guess what we are talking.
Right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Like this is the really unsexy part of marketing,
but it all.
This is not Mad Men, my gosh.
Now you mentioned it.
Now I want to watch that showagain.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I know it, I know.
And the next one okay,professional author website.
Okay, and I'm going to add inwith a media page.
Obviously, that is somethingthat sometimes comes down the
road.
Having a media page when youhaven't had media, we get it,
but the website and we've talkedabout websites before too but
it's very easy to get a simple,clean-looking website.
(10:23):
So we're kind of past the ageof like, oh, I haven't had time
for that yet or I haven't setaside the budget.
You know what I mean.
It's really not something thathas to cost a lot, especially
not at the onset.
If you want to do somethingmuch more complex later on, we
support that fully.
But the media page is a big one,specifically if you want to get
media, because at first you canpopulate it with I mean, penny
(10:47):
could go off on this forever butyou put elements on your media
page that the media can use.
You put your background, youput your talking points, you put
you know what I mean All yourstrengths.
At some point it can start offfunctioning as somewhat of a
media resume Highlighteverything that's great about
what you can offer and then,obviously, as you start securing
(11:09):
media, you add that to it andyou can build from it.
But you want to look like youhave a plan and you want to look
like you expect.
I mean it's like showing upwith the confidence where media
sees that and they go oh okay,this person is taking this
seriously.
I think I can take themseriously too, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I find that really hard when authors want big media
but they have zero presenceonline.
It's like where do you expectus to send these people To your
house, you know like they're notgoing to come knock on your
door and chat with you about.
But it's true when you reallyand I'm not trying to offend
anybody, but truly, when youthink about it, it really is
very logical like, okay, youwant us to reach out to big
(11:51):
media?
Where do you want us to sendthem?
You know what is your home basethat shows that you are ready
for this.
Right, that's a big componentto this.
Um, exactly, yeah, uh, thesocial media part using it
consistently I realize noteverybody.
The social media part using itconsistently I realize not
everybody's into social media.
We've done shows about how tooperate without social media, so
(12:11):
certainly that's an element.
But truly, for some of you outthere, depending on what your
topic is, what your genre is,what your goals are, and we talk
about this because of, likePenny said, she gets on the
phone, she hears what goals areOkay Based on these goals.
You know, and we talk aboutthis because of, like Penny said
, she gets on the phone, shehears what goals are Okay.
Based on these goals, you reallyneed a social media presence
for X, y and Z reason.
So this is one of thosefoundational things that it's
(12:34):
worth chatting with somebodylike Penny who knows what the
market expectations are, toensure you are paying attention
to the foundational pieces thatmake sense to support your goals
.
Right, and that's kind of whatwe're talking about when it
comes to social media.
So those of you that arelistening like, oh my God, I
never want to be on social media.
You may not have to be based onwhat, the kind of books that
(12:55):
you write and your goals and whoyour readers are, things like
that it is possible, but forsome of you out there, based on
your goals, you really aren'tgoing to be able to skirt the
social media element of this inthis day and age.
It's just a fact you know,right, right, do you want to do
the email list one?
Because I know newsletters area passion of yours.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Well, they are a passion of mine and you know
it's amazing to me how many andyou know, I understand from
talking to a lot of authors thatwhen I throw out, do you have
an email list.
Talking to a lot of authorsthat when I throw out, do you
have an email list they're sortof like, um well, I don't really
know what to do.
So a lot of the top complaintis I don't know what I would say
(13:36):
and I don't know what to do.
And so, if that is youno-transcript.
And there was an author thatthis is maybe two years ago.
She was traditionally publishedand she decided she wanted to
(13:57):
independently publish her nextbook and she had had a few books
out, but she wasn't like.
She wasn't, you know, like aKaren Slaughter or somebody who
is super famous and I onlymentioned because she's a book
that I'm reading right now butso she wasn't a major national
bestselling author, but she hadsome books on her shelf that she
(14:18):
had written and traditionallypublished.
So she decided to independentlypublish her book.
Within 48 hours of that bookbeing published, she had 7,000
ratings and reviews All from heremail list, right?
(14:41):
So when I'm on the phone withan author and I put that in
perspective of here is what canhappen if you have an active
email list.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat she has 7,000 people on her
mailing list.
She could have had 70, but sheasked them to spread the word
and they did, and we're actuallygoing to do a show on that, so
I'm not going to go too far downthat rabbit hole.
But an email list is a directconnection to your reader.
And for those of you who youknow bristle when we mentioned
(15:04):
social media, which a lot ofpeople do, and we, as Amy
pointed out, we have a lot ofshows both on how to be better
on social media but also how tomarket your book without social
media your email list is a greatway to communicate directly
with your reader, so it's areally great way to share news
and insights.
It is a really great way tostart to build an active reader
(15:37):
base who cares about what youwrite, wants to read everything
you write and wants to also helpyou get your you know, get your
books out there.
Start small right.
Again, the email list thingwhen I, when we, when I have,
when I coach authors, a lot oftimes they sort of glaze over
which I get it because, again,it just sounds like a lot of not
fun work, but it can absolutelypay off in the end.
(16:00):
And then I think you know thefinal foundational piece and
this is something that we helpauthors with, but I think is
definitely in the foundationalcategory is a review strategy,
right.
So how, um, are you, are youhiring somebody to get you
(16:24):
reviews?
Are you getting reviews If it'syour first book?
This feels a little bit like anunfair question, like I get it.
But people buy, people likewhat other people like, even if
they don't know who the personis that has reviewed your book.
Like I'll look at books, eventraditionally published books,
where I get like a book bub dealfor, and I check them out and
(16:48):
they're maybe five years old andthey have 15 reviews.
First off, I don't know howy'all got a book by deal,
whatever Right, but your book isfive years old and you have 15
reviews.
What is going on?
So I mean, amy, don't you, whenyou look at books and when you
(17:09):
get, you know when new authorscome in and you want to put them
on my calendar?
I mean, amy, don't you, whenyou look at books and when you
get, you know when new authorscome in and you want to put them
on my calendar.
I mean, that's the first thingthat you look at as well, right?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh, I absolutely look at that and again, a lot of
this.
We're also gauging this againstyour goals, you know, and
against where your book is at.
It's all very personal, likethis whole process is very
personal, personal and there areso many different factors that
have to get weighed.
You know, none of this iscompletely make it or break it
in a vacuum.
(17:36):
You know there's a lot ofconsiderations that especially
we take when people come to usand want to work with us.
I mean, there's so manydifferent things that we
consider and brainstorm about.
But the review strategy isabsolutely something that you
don't want to be surprised with.
You know, like we get authorsthat come to us and when we say,
ok, what are you doing on yourend about your reviews?
And they've never thought aboutit, you know they're really
(18:00):
just hoping it happens and it'slike you can't play a passive
role in getting reviews.
You know right, in gettingreviews, you know Right, like
there really has to be a planfor it or you just need to also
realize that keep your goalsrealistic.
If your book has been out for acouple of years and you only
have, like Penny said, you knowyou only got a handful reviews
(18:22):
and then you come to us and sayI want big media.
It's like that's not a greatlook.
If we're being entirely honest,you know it's not a great look
and that is something that youwill have to battle against and
work on.
That's just the reality of it.
It's not like anything'simpossible, nothing's off the
table.
But keeping your expectationsin check, based on just the
(18:45):
market standards, is superimportant.
Yeah, exactly, that's where alot of this foundational stuff
comes in is just there aremarket standards is super
important.
Yeah, exactly, and that's wherea lot of this foundational
stuff comes in is just there aremarket standards that, no
matter how great your story isor how great your content is,
you can't skirt those, and weaim to try to help authors
understand what those standardsare and then make sure they're
aligning their marketingstrategies and their goals with
(19:07):
those standards and trying towork with that, because that's
how your book looks better topotential buyers.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Right, and this is where both Amy and I have such a
massive disconnect with some ofthe one and done services that
you can buy online.
Like I can just buy a bunch ofreviews and I can just, you know
, like the one and done stuffand I get.
The appeal of that is they'reprobably really inexpensive,
right?
So for 99 bucks you could get Xnumber of reviews or whatever,
(19:36):
and great.
So we just mentioned reviews,get more reviews Fabulous.
We have a whole show on thattoo, so be sure to check that
out.
But a good marketing company, acompany that really wants to
help you succeed and help you todo better not just under their
(19:59):
watch, but ongoing should careabout your foundational
marketing, which is why weinclude a lot of that in the
work that we do with our authors.
So if you're working withsomebody who isn't asking you
about that or doesn't care aboutthat or hasn't had a, you know
you haven't, has never beenaddressed in anything, that's a
(20:20):
problem.
Foundational marketing soundsagain super boring, right, like
I get.
It Sounds super unsexy.
Super boring, right, like I get.
It Sounds super unsexy, butit's.
The majority of authors don'trealize that they're doing it
wrong, not because they don'tcare, because they do care but
(20:40):
nobody has told them otherwiseor there's a lot of
misinformation out there.
We're also really close to ourown work, and I say we because,
as an author, I've been there.
I wrote a book description andI've addressed this before in
our podcast for how to sell theAmazon author formula.
I wrote a book description forthat and I read it out loud and
I sent it to Amy and I read itout loud again and I was like
(21:03):
how am I even allowed to gooutside, right?
And I mean, and I do marketingfor a living, right.
So so we, you know a bookdescriptions very tricky I'm
pretty sure we have a show onthat too of not just the work
(21:32):
that we do the bigger, morerobust elements in terms of like
pitching and doing all thatstuff but even just in your, in
your Amazon retail page andbuyer psychology when you're,
when you're looking at your ownpage and it's your book and
you're in love and it's releaseday and you're so excited it's
easy to just forget about thator dismiss it.
I mean, amy, you do a lot ofAmazon book page evaluation and
(22:00):
you, I mean, we see this a lot,but you also see this a lot on
those book pages in particular,that the buyer psychology has
never really been addressed.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yes, exactly, it's kind of like authors should be
the best person to describetheir work, to describe the
highlights of their content,their story, their area of
expertise, like that is what youspecialize in and we love that.
We love especially partneringwith clients that have very
(22:29):
strong opinions about what theyhave to offer.
That is ideal for us, right,but you have to be able to make
that make sense to someone elsethat is not super close to your
work, that doesn't know who youare, that doesn't fully
understand your background.
Because I think a piece of thisthat also often gets forgotten,
penny, is that you don't havevery long to convince somebody
(22:52):
right to consider buying yourbook.
That's right.
You can't expect to have 30seconds with someone, let alone
a couple minutes.
So really, every element ofyour retail page needs to be
primed and ready to convertsomebody, and that comes down to
a single bolded sentence inyour description.
(23:14):
Sometimes because that's allthat catches their attention as
they're scanning the pagedescription.
Sometimes because that's allthat catches their attention is
they're scanning the page.
So it's little details likethat that really add up, because
you don't want to miss anopportunity.
So, bringing in the buyerpsychology, why would somebody
care about this.
What is going to grab someone'sattention if they don't know
the full background of the story?
(23:35):
You know what I mean.
What are those intriguingelements that genre fans are
looking for right now?
How do I pull that out of whatthe author has told us about
their book and their storyline?
You know what I mean.
So it's really that kind ofgoes hand-in-hand with getting
too close to your own work.
But the buyer psychology has alot to deal with that too,
because it's hard to, whenyou're too close to something,
(23:58):
to be objective and think aboutsomebody else's experience with
your book, you know, or withyour retail page, exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And I think that if you are, you know so we also did
a show.
Sorry, it seems like all I'vedone during this recording is,
um, give a nod back to othershows, but there's a show for
that.
I think that's a commercial too.
I mean about there's an app forthat or something, Anyway,
whatever.
(24:27):
But I think that if you arefeeling like nothing is working
in your marketing, take a lookat your foundational elements
and make make sure thateverything's lined up.
In fact, I talked to an author,um, last week and she said I
came to you because I heard yourshow on.
Should I give up on my book?
And that's a show that wespecifically did, like we went
(24:50):
down a list and so if you feellike, oh my gosh, if you're
nodding and you're listening tothis, go back and find that show
, because that's something thatwe did and a lot of authors,
like everybody who's listeningknows how we feel about the
conversation of ROI, and youknow it's funny because Amy said
earlier she's like I hope we'renot offending people.
(25:10):
I'm like, Amy, honey, we I'msure that at some point ship has
sailed, Ship has sailed, I'msure at some point.
You know.
What's so funny is people arejust some of these.
Oh, my God, some of thesepeople I talked to.
They're just so sweet.
I talked to somebody, I guess,two weeks ago and she's like I
know how you and Amy feel aboutand I forget now even what it
(25:31):
was.
I know you feel about X, y, zand I and she's like, yeah, I
listened to your podcast and I'mlike, oh, that's great, but she
, she goes.
I know you feel strongly aboutand I'm like, oh my gosh, yes,
we are so obvious about we wouldbe terrible poker players, so
we're so obvious about it ohyeah, absolutely, but spending
(25:53):
on media and we do see this alot.
So we have an author that we'renot we're not working with, but
amy and I both kind of we workedon his proposal because he was
spending a ton of money on ads.
There was a lot of money goingout in ads and there were none
of the foundational elements andbasically you may as well just
(26:16):
be throwing that money over thefence and let your neighbor have
it, because doing media, doinganything big that we talked
about earlier on the show,without making sure that your
house is in order, so to speak,is money that is wasted.
Right, but spending money onfoundational marketing is
(26:40):
perfect for long-term growth.
Is there ROI in foundationalmarketing?
Okay, that's a trickyconversation and I'm not sure
that I can answer that, butthere is no ROI in spending
money in media and doing all thethings and not having your
house in order.
Right, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Amy, do you have a better way of putting it?
You probably do.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
No, I thought that was perfect.
Yeah, I mean you already saidwe don't like the ROI comparison
because it's just like thereare so many other factors
involved in ROI.
You know so and you know weharp on covers.
So it's like, okay, get all thefoundational stuff right and
you've got a scary cover.
Okay, obviously that's notgoing to help your cause any,
but right, right, right and goahead, no, go ahead.
(27:30):
No, I agree there's a lot ofcomponents to this, but
absolutely true, I mean that iswhy, when authors come to us, I
mean that is why, when authorscome to us, you will see the
scope of a campaign, which makeyou know whatever that is for an
author's budget, whatever wecan do with, that always
includes whatever foundationalelements we know we can help
(27:51):
them with to ensure thatanything they do, either with us
or after our work is done,makes more sense.
You know, yeah, so it's like wewill always and that's why I
always like almost fall out ofmy chair when we hear authors
come to us that say, like Ispent $12,000 on a media
campaign and I wasn't very happywith the turnout.
(28:13):
You know, it's just like oh, mygoodness, it just amazes me
that companies will, like yousaid earlier, penny, if people
aren't pushing back on you oncertain things about your
foundation, then you really haveto consider whether or not
they're assessing your long-termpotential as well.
(28:35):
And that's something that wefocus on a lot is that we're not
going to do things that onlymake sense for right now,
because we can do it and we cando it easily and you can be in
and out the door and you gotwhat you asked for.
It's like we will absolutelytell you you need this, this and
this, and then we can do somesexy stuff too.
But we have to do this first.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Right, right, right, exactly.
And you know, I mean it is likeI said, it's not always, um,
it's not.
Sometimes it's not an easyconversation to have because we
felt we both felt really bad forthat author who had spent so
much money and had not done allof the other things and was so
discouraged because, you know,look, I mean it's an investment.
Like we have authors tell usall the time like, know, look, I
(29:17):
mean it's an investment.
Like we have authors tell usall the time like this is a any
investment is a big investment,because you're essentially you
know so I had an author yearsago and I've used this quote so
many times when I've talked tofolks Getting you know,
investing in book promotion iskind of like sending your kid to
college, so you want to sendthem to the best college you can
(29:40):
and then, at the end of the day, you hope that they do
something with the educationthat you paid for.
Right, and the marketing is kindof the same way we realize it's
a big, you know, it's a big ask.
It's a big like you're walkingup and you're spending that
money and you don't know what'sgoing to happen and everybody
wants a lot of want, certainty,which is where I think that some
of these companies who willjust take your money and run
(30:03):
kind of, I think they they sortof feed on that Right and there,
no matter how you, no matterhow you slice it, there's never
any certainty.
But I can tell you withcertainty that if you don't pay
attention to your foundation,houses built on sand generally
don't survive, right.
(30:24):
So, not to get too like weirdand metaphorical, apparently,
I'm all about the quotes today.
So actionable takeaways.
Amy, do you want to, do youwant to take us through a couple
of these?
Amy, do you want?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
to take us through a couple of these.
Yeah, I mean yeah, Maintakeaways from this.
Thank y'all, as always, forlistening to us rant.
We have strong feelings.
Sometimes those overwhelm us,you know it's like.
But truly get your retailpresence on Amazon in order.
That is a first and foremost.
You know, no matter what you do, you build from there, and it's
(31:00):
never too late, you know.
So if your book is already outor you're already on your third
book or your fifth book andyou're thinking like, well, wish
I would have heard this a fewyears ago, it doesn't matter,
you can fix your Amazon presencenow.
It's one of those things thatyou can tap into anytime.
And again, we've done shows onthis and it should be revisited.
You know, keep it updated, keepit interesting, Right, Right.
(31:24):
And another big one too.
You know, again, create contentand be out there.
That's another really importantelement of this is that you
really can't we can do a lot forpeople, but nobody should be
telling you that they are theone and done secret to success.
You know you can't rely solelyon one marketing campaign or
(31:48):
that first month of your book tocarry you through the rest of
your author career.
So get comfortable creatingcontent and putting yourself out
there.
I mean, there are so manydifferent ways to do that we
could do a whole show on that,like all the different content
you can create and where to putit.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, we've done a show on that.
I'm sure there's a show forthat.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yes, but truly you know.
If you're a nonfiction author,the easy way to look at it is
you need to show people that youhave what it takes, because
they're not just going to trust,because you published a book,
that you are the answer to alltheir problems.
So by creating content inmultiple formats, in different
ways, you are reinforcing thatyou know what you're doing.
Fiction author it's aboutimmersion.
It's about the readerexperience, creating content and
(32:33):
putting extra stuff out there.
Putting in that little extraeffort as part of your
foundation shows readers thatyou care, you're showing up for
them and they're more thanthey're more likely to you know
to get on board with you Ifthey're seeing that you're
putting in the extra effortbeyond just pressing publish on
Amazon, you know.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And then I think that you know if you are you really
want to show.
We always tell authors we liketo work with authors who are
invested in their own success.
And the word invested doesn'tnecessarily mean monetarily, it
(33:18):
just means that you are outthere doing the things.
Show readers that you care,it's not about us.
Show readers that you'reinvested in their experience.
This will really help you tostand out with influencers and
podcasts and media and thingslike that.
Show people that you areengaged in your own success.
(33:40):
And it doesn't mean that youhave to spend hours and hours on
social at all or creating this.
You're like, oh my gosh, Iwrote a book and I'm writing,
trying to write a second bookand now you know, amy and Penny
are telling me that I have towrite more content and I'm never
listening to the show again,like I get it.
But you know, I mean, look,this is a business, right.
(34:01):
I mean we've been around foralmost 25 years.
We do that.
We've been around this longbecause we do really great work,
but also because we payattention to all the
foundational stuff, and Amy isactually really she has an eagle
eye for that stuff and not tobe like not blowing smoke, but
(34:23):
truly like she'll catch stuffthat I don't catch.
It matters, it all matters.
Like I had an author and Iforgot to tell you this.
But we have to now.
We have to dig through thewebsite and figure out where it
is.
I had an author who combedthrough our website and found an
old number of published books.
He goes that number doesn'tmatch up with the number that's
(34:44):
in your proposal of how manybooks that are published every
day, hour, minute, year,whatever.
And I'm like oh my gosh and Iactually made a note.
I'm like find the page, findthe page.
It doesn't mention.
Details matter to readers.
It mattered to this guy becausehe mentioned it.
Mattered enough that hementioned it to me on the phone
and he's probably also trying tobe helpful.
(35:05):
Details matter, matter toreaders Absolutely.
And speaking of websites, have ahome page, have a home base,
have a website, even if it'sjust a one pager.
A lot of times when I tellauthors you need a website, they
overthink it.
And I get it because you seeall these websites.
You're like oh, like you know,I have to have all these pages.
You do not have a one pagewebsite.
Um, just something thatshowcases your work and then you
(35:30):
can always expand it later.
You know you can have um, youknow you can add to the website
as you grow your career, right?
So just just, you know somereally basic stuff.
And the other piece and it's noton our show notes but if you
have like sometimes authors will, you know, deep dive into
(35:53):
social media, be like I'm goingto have all these places, I'm
going to have all these things,I'm going to do all the things.
If you only nearly need to beon one social media site, if you
want to be on multiple and youhave time to update those and
keep that content active,fabulous.
But if you don't, and if youhave paused the use of any
(36:14):
particular site or whateverreason like maybe you got
excited about TikTok and you'rejust like, oh my gosh, I can't
create enough video for TikTok,I get it.
Make sure that you are pinningsomething to the top of those
accounts to let people knowwhere to follow you.
And the second part of thatconversation is pull those links
(36:34):
off of your website.
Yes, right, Don't make peoplego to a page.
It's kind of like invitingpeople to a party that you
forgot to attend, like to attendyour own party.
So don't send people to asocial media account that is
abandoned or whatever.
And you know a lot of peoplelike a lot of people, abandon
their their Twitter, slash X'saccount and fine, or whatever
(36:58):
like, and then the hate turns tofacebook.
Now I hate facebook, so right,so I'm like abandon facebook,
but the facebook profile isstill listed on their website
and then people click it andthey're just like, well, there's
really nothing going on withthis party, um, so I think that
that I think that pretty muchkind of wraps up everything that
(37:20):
we were going to talk about inthis show.
Right, I mean, yeah, um, soagain, we we love.
I know this was a very unsexyshow.
I don't even know how I'm goingto write this up Podcast show,
so people don't just like skipover it, because it's very easy
to do, but you, you, really you.
You can't skip the line, and Ithink that, at the end of the
(37:43):
day, is the core message.
Um, and thank you so much forlistening.
And we love show ideas whereveryou listen to, uh, podcasts.
We love a review, like theauthor who emailed us a review
last week.
If that gets too tricky, we getit.
They don't make it easy.
It's very weird.
Email us the review and we'lladd it to our podcast page.
(38:05):
If you just found us and thisis your first listen not all of
our shows are so unsexy.
I feel like I have to keepapologizing for that joke.
We have a ton of content.
We have five years worth ofshows, so be sure to subscribe
to the podcast and then you'llget us in your feed every single
(38:26):
Friday.
We are awesome, if I do say somyself, and you can also find
all of our prior shows on ourwebsite, and that link is in our
show notes.
Thank you all so much forlistening and we'll see you next
time.
Bye-bye.
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
This is Penny Sansevierie andAmy Cornell, and this show,
again like all of our othershows, was very much inspired by
conversations that we're havingwith authors and some of the
things that we're seeing outthere, and I know that maybe
(00:22):
this seems like a little bit ofa boring topic, but, believe me,
it absolutely matters.
It matters to your readers and,consequently, it matters to
sales.
Before we get started, though,I just want to mention that we
so I am in the final stretch ofthe Amazon Author Formula
workbook, which I'm really,really excited about, so you're
(00:42):
going to be hearing lots aboutthat.
Our listeners are going to get,um, probably, early information
first and foremost.
You guys are are amazing.
We love, by the way, hearingfrom our, from our, from our
listeners, and we get emails allthe time, and we actually just
got a review, uh, somebody whocouldn't figure out how to post
it to um, to their, to theiTunes or wherever they were
(01:07):
listening to, and we completelyunderstand that, because it's a
thing I don't understand whythey have to make this so, why
they have to make it sochallenging, but we love reviews
.
We just got another one aboutthe Kindle Unlimited show.
Amy, did you see that?
Yes, I love it.
Yes, I am so excited.
In fact, I cited that KindleUnlimited conversation with the
(01:31):
author that I spoke to thismorning.
So we try to do shows that yourequest.
We get show ideas.
We love, love, love your showideas.
Thank you so much.
We have built a lot of showsout of show ideas.
This one, in particular, wasn'tso much.
We love, love, love your showideas.
Thank you so much.
We have built a lot of showsout of show ideas.
This one in particular, wasn'tso much.
I mean, this has come out ofconversations that we have had
(01:51):
with authors, but it's also comeout of a need and we do a lot
of shows on wanting to skip theline, because it's really is a
thing and foundational marketingsounds really boring, like it's
just like it's just kind of abig yawn.
(02:12):
Can y'all just go back and talkabout Kindle Unlimited again?
Like, I get it, but a lot oftimes authors are focused on
very high level strategies, somedia are focused on very high
level strategies.
So media, bestseller campaigns,doing ads, influencer outreach
(02:33):
and things like that.
Like we had an author and Amyand I've had some back and forth
about this who literally theironly reason for hiring a
marketing firm is because theywant a bestseller campaign.
They want their book to be abestseller.
And look, I can appreciate that.
I got a mention on SandraBeckwith's blog last week and
(02:54):
for the Amazon Author Formulathe one that came out in January
of last year and that bookstarted hitting the Amazon
bestseller list got the littleflag again.
Everything's very exciting,Like I get it.
But when you're looking at thosereally long-term goals and I
realize that you say, well, butPenny, how can it be a long-term
(03:15):
goal if my book releases and Iwant to hit a bestseller list
the day that it releases or inthat week, that's not long-term,
that's immediate, but I get it,and we've done a lot of shows
on goal setting.
That's not long-term, that'simmediate, but I get it, and
we've done a lot of shows ongoal setting and that's not what
this show is about.
But this is another reason whyI'm writing another book about
(03:36):
you know, it's really it's aplanner I don't have like I know
we always tell authors like, oh, you have to know what you're
writing before you're writing it.
And I do know what I'm writing.
But as I'm putting thistogether, it's really morphing
into something that I wasn'texpecting, because when we talk
to authors about big, impressive, high-level goals, like being
(04:00):
in big media and bestsellercampaigns, which I just
mentioned being in big media andbestseller campaigns, which I
just mentioned there are so manymicro steps that come ahead of
that and we've done shows onthat.
Like at this point, amy, Ithink that we can very much say
if we're addressing a topic,there's a show for that, because
we've been doing this now forfive years.
(04:21):
But the foundational marketingis the basics, and the basics
are the things that authorsoftentimes overlook.
In fact, I just talked to anauthor not that long ago who has
a ton of books out doing allthe things and is still has no
author photo on Amazon and is agreat, is basically a gray box
(04:43):
on Amazon and it always justblows me away.
I mean right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And to your point about thebestseller campaigns, I love
that you mentioned that because,yes, that seems like a very
immediate, this needs to happennow goal, which kind of sounds
contradictory to long-term.
But to your point, penny,everything that needs to happen
to make those conversions happen, that's a lot of logistics.
It doesn't mean it takes you areally long time, but there's a
(05:10):
lot of boxes to check, and Ithink that's what gets
overlooked a lot of the times.
Right, like, oh, it'll justhappen if I focus on the
execution, that's all thatmatters.
But your retail page is wherethe sale happens, and so so much
has to go into ensuring thatonce people get there and
(05:32):
actually have a chance to buy,they want to follow through and
actually buy, and those are thethings that get missed a lot,
all those little details thatadd up to somebody actually
going okay, this seems likesomething I want to get, let me
buy this, and it sounds like avery simple thing.
But psychologically for theconsumer, a lot needs to go
right, and so there are a lot ofplaces to misstep.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, exactly, and you know, like a lot of people,
like I get it like a lot ofpeople want to cut the line, and
that's especially in the bookworld.
That's just not not, that'sjust not always possible.
And when we're talking abouthigh-level strategies, like
things like I mentioned earliermedia outreach, um, paid
advertising so amazon, facebook,instagram, tiktok, getting
(06:19):
endorsements, influencerpartnerships, endorsements book
bub deals are another big one.
So a lot of book bub deals getrejected not because the author
hasn't done a lot of work, butbecause their foundational
elements are not taken care ofRight.
(06:41):
So it really is more importantthan you think.
When an author cause I talked toan author the other day and
she's like I can't get a bookdeal to save my life and, as it
would happen, this same authoris the one who was the gray box
on Amazon.
So it all matters.
(07:03):
And, and something you know, Ihad a book person at a
conference I don't know, it waslast year or something tell me
that they pay attention toreviews, they pay attention to
everything that kind ofunderpins that book, as it were.
Right, yep, as it were, right,yep.
(07:25):
Amy, do you want to walkthrough?
Do you want to start the list.
Start powering through the listof foundational marketing and
kind of what we're thinkingabout for this show.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yes, and as we've been fully admitting, this is
typically the less sexy stuff,for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's why a lot ofauthors again think, like I can
take care of that, I'll hiresomebody for the big stuff,
which I understand where thatrationale comes from, but again
we just go back to.
It's a lot of boxes to check anda lot of them just aren't on
(07:56):
the typical individual's radaryou know what I mean Whereas
literally Penny and I live andbreathe these checkboxes every
single day.
And it's a list you know.
So, first off, optimize Amazonpage.
We've done a lot of Amazonshows, so those are available to
y'all, but it really everysingle piece matters.
And, more specifically, how youutilize all the different
(08:21):
features of your Amazon retailpage.
A lot of those get left unused,so it's amazing that we can
even say this, penny, but evennow, in this day and age,
authors that utilize all thedifferent features and functions
of their Amazon retail page arein the minority, and so those
pages really stand out toshoppers as offering more about
(08:46):
the reader experience, what thebook is about, how much time and
energy the author has spentmaking that buying experience a
positive one for the potentialreader.
All of that matters, and thoseare still those authors are
still in the very small minoritythat utilize all those features
and options.
So that is absolutely somethingthat you want to do.
I know it's like I could go onabout that forever because it is
(09:10):
so important and it's it's.
You know, technically it's all,there's no extra cost to it
anyway.
Sorry, it's like no, no, no, no.
I get on my soapbox about.
You know, it's like when Amazonlets you do something and they
don't charge you extra for it.
Take advantage of it.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
you know, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, no, you and I are both onthe same page with that.
I could go on.
I could go on for days andsometimes, like it's kind of
embarrassing like how obsessed Iam with this, because sometimes
, like I'll be talking to anauthor in a consultation and
I'll be like, oh well, you're abook page.
And they're'll say, well, Ithought we were going to talk
about marketing.
Like we are talking aboutmarketing, right.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Guess what we are talking.
Right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Like this is the really unsexy part of marketing,
but it all.
This is not Mad Men, my gosh.
Now you mentioned it.
Now I want to watch that showagain.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I know it, I know.
And the next one okay,professional author website.
Okay, and I'm going to add inwith a media page.
Obviously, that is somethingthat sometimes comes down the
road.
Having a media page when youhaven't had media, we get it,
but the website and we've talkedabout websites before too but
it's very easy to get a simple,clean-looking website.
(10:23):
So we're kind of past the ageof like, oh, I haven't had time
for that yet or I haven't setaside the budget.
You know what I mean.
It's really not something thathas to cost a lot, especially
not at the onset.
If you want to do somethingmuch more complex later on, we
support that fully.
But the media page is a big one,specifically if you want to get
media, because at first you canpopulate it with I mean, penny
(10:47):
could go off on this forever butyou put elements on your media
page that the media can use.
You put your background, youput your talking points, you put
you know what I mean All yourstrengths.
At some point it can start offfunctioning as somewhat of a
media resume Highlighteverything that's great about
what you can offer and then,obviously, as you start securing
(11:09):
media, you add that to it andyou can build from it.
But you want to look like youhave a plan and you want to look
like you expect.
I mean it's like showing upwith the confidence where media
sees that and they go oh okay,this person is taking this
seriously.
I think I can take themseriously too, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I find that really hard when authors want big media
but they have zero presenceonline.
It's like where do you expectus to send these people To your
house, you know like they're notgoing to come knock on your
door and chat with you about.
But it's true when you reallyand I'm not trying to offend
anybody, but truly, when youthink about it, it really is
very logical like, okay, youwant us to reach out to big
(11:51):
media?
Where do you want us to sendthem?
You know what is your home basethat shows that you are ready
for this.
Right, that's a big componentto this.
Um, exactly, yeah, uh, thesocial media part using it
consistently I realize noteverybody.
The social media part using itconsistently I realize not
everybody's into social media.
We've done shows about how tooperate without social media, so
(12:11):
certainly that's an element.
But truly, for some of you outthere, depending on what your
topic is, what your genre is,what your goals are, and we talk
about this because of, likePenny said, she gets on the
phone, she hears what goals areOkay Based on these goals.
You know, and we talk aboutthis because of, like Penny said
, she gets on the phone, shehears what goals are Okay.
Based on these goals, you reallyneed a social media presence
for X, y and Z reason.
So this is one of thosefoundational things that it's
(12:34):
worth chatting with somebodylike Penny who knows what the
market expectations are, toensure you are paying attention
to the foundational pieces thatmake sense to support your goals
.
Right, and that's kind of whatwe're talking about when it
comes to social media.
So those of you that arelistening like, oh my God, I
never want to be on social media.
You may not have to be based onwhat, the kind of books that
(12:55):
you write and your goals and whoyour readers are, things like
that it is possible, but forsome of you out there, based on
your goals, you really aren'tgoing to be able to skirt the
social media element of this inthis day and age.
It's just a fact you know,right, right, do you want to do
the email list one?
Because I know newsletters area passion of yours.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Well, they are a passion of mine and you know
it's amazing to me how many andyou know, I understand from
talking to a lot of authors thatwhen I throw out, do you have
an email list.
Talking to a lot of authorsthat when I throw out, do you
have an email list they're sortof like, um well, I don't really
know what to do.
So a lot of the top complaintis I don't know what I would say
(13:36):
and I don't know what to do.
And so, if that is youno-transcript.
And there was an author thatthis is maybe two years ago.
She was traditionally publishedand she decided she wanted to
(13:57):
independently publish her nextbook and she had had a few books
out, but she wasn't like.
She wasn't, you know, like aKaren Slaughter or somebody who
is super famous and I onlymentioned because she's a book
that I'm reading right now butso she wasn't a major national
bestselling author, but she hadsome books on her shelf that she
(14:18):
had written and traditionallypublished.
So she decided to independentlypublish her book.
Within 48 hours of that bookbeing published, she had 7,000
ratings and reviews All from heremail list, right?
(14:41):
So when I'm on the phone withan author and I put that in
perspective of here is what canhappen if you have an active
email list.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat she has 7,000 people on her
mailing list.
She could have had 70, but sheasked them to spread the word
and they did, and we're actuallygoing to do a show on that, so
I'm not going to go too far downthat rabbit hole.
But an email list is a directconnection to your reader.
And for those of you who youknow bristle when we mentioned
(15:04):
social media, which a lot ofpeople do, and we, as Amy
pointed out, we have a lot ofshows both on how to be better
on social media but also how tomarket your book without social
media your email list is a greatway to communicate directly
with your reader, so it's areally great way to share news
and insights.
It is a really great way tostart to build an active reader
(15:37):
base who cares about what youwrite, wants to read everything
you write and wants to also helpyou get your you know, get your
books out there.
Start small right.
Again, the email list thingwhen I, when we, when I have,
when I coach authors, a lot oftimes they sort of glaze over
which I get it because, again,it just sounds like a lot of not
fun work, but it can absolutelypay off in the end.
(16:00):
And then I think you know thefinal foundational piece and
this is something that we helpauthors with, but I think is
definitely in the foundationalcategory is a review strategy,
right.
So how, um, are you, are youhiring somebody to get you
(16:24):
reviews?
Are you getting reviews If it'syour first book?
This feels a little bit like anunfair question, like I get it.
But people buy, people likewhat other people like, even if
they don't know who the personis that has reviewed your book.
Like I'll look at books, eventraditionally published books,
where I get like a book bub dealfor, and I check them out and
(16:48):
they're maybe five years old andthey have 15 reviews.
First off, I don't know howy'all got a book by deal,
whatever Right, but your book isfive years old and you have 15
reviews.
What is going on?
So I mean, amy, don't you, whenyou look at books and when you
(17:09):
get, you know when new authorscome in and you want to put them
on my calendar?
I mean, amy, don't you, whenyou look at books and when you
get, you know when new authorscome in and you want to put them
on my calendar.
I mean, that's the first thingthat you look at as well, right?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh, I absolutely look at that and again, a lot of
this.
We're also gauging this againstyour goals, you know, and
against where your book is at.
It's all very personal, likethis whole process is very
personal, personal and there areso many different factors that
have to get weighed.
You know, none of this iscompletely make it or break it
in a vacuum.
(17:36):
You know there's a lot ofconsiderations that especially
we take when people come to usand want to work with us.
I mean, there's so manydifferent things that we
consider and brainstorm about.
But the review strategy isabsolutely something that you
don't want to be surprised with.
You know, like we get authorsthat come to us and when we say,
ok, what are you doing on yourend about your reviews?
And they've never thought aboutit, you know they're really
(18:00):
just hoping it happens and it'slike you can't play a passive
role in getting reviews.
You know right, in gettingreviews, you know Right, like
there really has to be a planfor it or you just need to also
realize that keep your goalsrealistic.
If your book has been out for acouple of years and you only
have, like Penny said, you knowyou only got a handful reviews
(18:22):
and then you come to us and sayI want big media.
It's like that's not a greatlook.
If we're being entirely honest,you know it's not a great look
and that is something that youwill have to battle against and
work on.
That's just the reality of it.
It's not like anything'simpossible, nothing's off the
table.
But keeping your expectationsin check, based on just the
(18:45):
market standards, is superimportant.
Yeah, exactly, that's where alot of this foundational stuff
comes in is just there aremarket standards is super
important.
Yeah, exactly, and that's wherea lot of this foundational
stuff comes in is just there aremarket standards that, no
matter how great your story isor how great your content is,
you can't skirt those, and weaim to try to help authors
understand what those standardsare and then make sure they're
aligning their marketingstrategies and their goals with
(19:07):
those standards and trying towork with that, because that's
how your book looks better topotential buyers.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Right, and this is where both Amy and I have such a
massive disconnect with some ofthe one and done services that
you can buy online.
Like I can just buy a bunch ofreviews and I can just, you know
, like the one and done stuffand I get.
The appeal of that is they'reprobably really inexpensive,
right?
So for 99 bucks you could get Xnumber of reviews or whatever,
(19:36):
and great.
So we just mentioned reviews,get more reviews Fabulous.
We have a whole show on thattoo, so be sure to check that
out.
But a good marketing company, acompany that really wants to
help you succeed and help you todo better not just under their
(19:59):
watch, but ongoing should careabout your foundational
marketing, which is why weinclude a lot of that in the
work that we do with our authors.
So if you're working withsomebody who isn't asking you
about that or doesn't care aboutthat or hasn't had a, you know
you haven't, has never beenaddressed in anything, that's a
(20:20):
problem.
Foundational marketing soundsagain super boring, right, like
I get.
It Sounds super unsexy.
Super boring, right, like I get.
It Sounds super unsexy, butit's.
The majority of authors don'trealize that they're doing it
wrong, not because they don'tcare, because they do care but
(20:40):
nobody has told them otherwiseor there's a lot of
misinformation out there.
We're also really close to ourown work, and I say we because,
as an author, I've been there.
I wrote a book description andI've addressed this before in
our podcast for how to sell theAmazon author formula.
I wrote a book description forthat and I read it out loud and
I sent it to Amy and I read itout loud again and I was like
(21:03):
how am I even allowed to gooutside, right?
And I mean, and I do marketingfor a living, right.
So so we, you know a bookdescriptions very tricky I'm
pretty sure we have a show onthat too of not just the work
(21:32):
that we do the bigger, morerobust elements in terms of like
pitching and doing all thatstuff but even just in your, in
your Amazon retail page andbuyer psychology when you're,
when you're looking at your ownpage and it's your book and
you're in love and it's releaseday and you're so excited it's
easy to just forget about thator dismiss it.
I mean, amy, you do a lot ofAmazon book page evaluation and
(22:00):
you, I mean, we see this a lot,but you also see this a lot on
those book pages in particular,that the buyer psychology has
never really been addressed.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yes, exactly, it's kind of like authors should be
the best person to describetheir work, to describe the
highlights of their content,their story, their area of
expertise, like that is what youspecialize in and we love that.
We love especially partneringwith clients that have very
(22:29):
strong opinions about what theyhave to offer.
That is ideal for us, right,but you have to be able to make
that make sense to someone elsethat is not super close to your
work, that doesn't know who youare, that doesn't fully
understand your background.
Because I think a piece of thisthat also often gets forgotten,
penny, is that you don't havevery long to convince somebody
(22:52):
right to consider buying yourbook.
That's right.
You can't expect to have 30seconds with someone, let alone
a couple minutes.
So really, every element ofyour retail page needs to be
primed and ready to convertsomebody, and that comes down to
a single bolded sentence inyour description.
(23:14):
Sometimes because that's allthat catches their attention as
they're scanning the pagedescription.
Sometimes because that's allthat catches their attention is
they're scanning the page.
So it's little details likethat that really add up, because
you don't want to miss anopportunity.
So, bringing in the buyerpsychology, why would somebody
care about this.
What is going to grab someone'sattention if they don't know
the full background of the story?
(23:35):
You know what I mean.
What are those intriguingelements that genre fans are
looking for right now?
How do I pull that out of whatthe author has told us about
their book and their storyline?
You know what I mean.
So it's really that kind ofgoes hand-in-hand with getting
too close to your own work.
But the buyer psychology has alot to deal with that too,
because it's hard to, whenyou're too close to something,
(23:58):
to be objective and think aboutsomebody else's experience with
your book, you know, or withyour retail page, exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And I think that if you are, you know so we also did
a show.
Sorry, it seems like all I'vedone during this recording is,
um, give a nod back to othershows, but there's a show for
that.
I think that's a commercial too.
I mean about there's an app forthat or something, Anyway,
whatever.
(24:27):
But I think that if you arefeeling like nothing is working
in your marketing, take a lookat your foundational elements
and make make sure thateverything's lined up.
In fact, I talked to an author,um, last week and she said I
came to you because I heard yourshow on.
Should I give up on my book?
And that's a show that wespecifically did, like we went
(24:50):
down a list and so if you feellike, oh my gosh, if you're
nodding and you're listening tothis, go back and find that show
, because that's something thatwe did and a lot of authors,
like everybody who's listeningknows how we feel about the
conversation of ROI, and youknow it's funny because Amy said
earlier she's like I hope we'renot offending people.
(25:10):
I'm like, Amy, honey, we I'msure that at some point ship has
sailed, Ship has sailed, I'msure at some point.
You know.
What's so funny is people arejust some of these.
Oh, my God, some of thesepeople I talked to.
They're just so sweet.
I talked to somebody, I guess,two weeks ago and she's like I
know how you and Amy feel aboutand I forget now even what it
(25:31):
was.
I know you feel about X, y, zand I and she's like, yeah, I
listened to your podcast and I'mlike, oh, that's great, but she
, she goes.
I know you feel strongly aboutand I'm like, oh my gosh, yes,
we are so obvious about we wouldbe terrible poker players, so
we're so obvious about it ohyeah, absolutely, but spending
(25:53):
on media and we do see this alot.
So we have an author that we'renot we're not working with, but
amy and I both kind of we workedon his proposal because he was
spending a ton of money on ads.
There was a lot of money goingout in ads and there were none
of the foundational elements andbasically you may as well just
(26:16):
be throwing that money over thefence and let your neighbor have
it, because doing media, doinganything big that we talked
about earlier on the show,without making sure that your
house is in order, so to speak,is money that is wasted.
Right, but spending money onfoundational marketing is
(26:40):
perfect for long-term growth.
Is there ROI in foundationalmarketing?
Okay, that's a trickyconversation and I'm not sure
that I can answer that, butthere is no ROI in spending
money in media and doing all thethings and not having your
house in order.
Right, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Amy, do you have a better way of putting it?
You probably do.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
No, I thought that was perfect.
Yeah, I mean you already saidwe don't like the ROI comparison
because it's just like thereare so many other factors
involved in ROI.
You know so and you know weharp on covers.
So it's like, okay, get all thefoundational stuff right and
you've got a scary cover.
Okay, obviously that's notgoing to help your cause any,
but right, right, right and goahead, no, go ahead.
(27:30):
No, I agree there's a lot ofcomponents to this, but
absolutely true, I mean that iswhy, when authors come to us, I
mean that is why, when authorscome to us, you will see the
scope of a campaign, which makeyou know whatever that is for an
author's budget, whatever wecan do with, that always
includes whatever foundationalelements we know we can help
(27:51):
them with to ensure thatanything they do, either with us
or after our work is done,makes more sense.
You know, yeah, so it's like wewill always and that's why I
always like almost fall out ofmy chair when we hear authors
come to us that say, like Ispent $12,000 on a media
campaign and I wasn't very happywith the turnout.
(28:13):
You know, it's just like oh, mygoodness, it just amazes me
that companies will, like yousaid earlier, penny, if people
aren't pushing back on you oncertain things about your
foundation, then you really haveto consider whether or not
they're assessing your long-termpotential as well.
(28:35):
And that's something that wefocus on a lot is that we're not
going to do things that onlymake sense for right now,
because we can do it and we cando it easily and you can be in
and out the door and you gotwhat you asked for.
It's like we will absolutelytell you you need this, this and
this, and then we can do somesexy stuff too.
But we have to do this first.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Right, right, right, exactly.
And you know, I mean it is likeI said, it's not always, um,
it's not.
Sometimes it's not an easyconversation to have because we
felt we both felt really bad forthat author who had spent so
much money and had not done allof the other things and was so
discouraged because, you know,look, I mean it's an investment.
Like we have authors tell usall the time like, know, look, I
(29:17):
mean it's an investment.
Like we have authors tell usall the time like this is a any
investment is a big investment,because you're essentially you
know so I had an author yearsago and I've used this quote so
many times when I've talked tofolks Getting you know,
investing in book promotion iskind of like sending your kid to
college, so you want to sendthem to the best college you can
(29:40):
and then, at the end of the day, you hope that they do
something with the educationthat you paid for.
Right, and the marketing is kindof the same way we realize it's
a big, you know, it's a big ask.
It's a big like you're walkingup and you're spending that
money and you don't know what'sgoing to happen and everybody
wants a lot of want, certainty,which is where I think that some
of these companies who willjust take your money and run
(30:03):
kind of, I think they they sortof feed on that Right and there,
no matter how you, no matterhow you slice it, there's never
any certainty.
But I can tell you withcertainty that if you don't pay
attention to your foundation,houses built on sand generally
don't survive, right.
(30:24):
So, not to get too like weirdand metaphorical, apparently,
I'm all about the quotes today.
So actionable takeaways.
Amy, do you want to, do youwant to take us through a couple
of these?
Amy, do you want?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
to take us through a couple of these.
Yeah, I mean yeah, Maintakeaways from this.
Thank y'all, as always, forlistening to us rant.
We have strong feelings.
Sometimes those overwhelm us,you know it's like.
But truly get your retailpresence on Amazon in order.
That is a first and foremost.
You know, no matter what you do, you build from there, and it's
(31:00):
never too late, you know.
So if your book is already outor you're already on your third
book or your fifth book andyou're thinking like, well, wish
I would have heard this a fewyears ago, it doesn't matter,
you can fix your Amazon presencenow.
It's one of those things thatyou can tap into anytime.
And again, we've done shows onthis and it should be revisited.
You know, keep it updated, keepit interesting, Right, Right.
(31:24):
And another big one too.
You know, again, create contentand be out there.
That's another really importantelement of this is that you
really can't we can do a lot forpeople, but nobody should be
telling you that they are theone and done secret to success.
You know you can't rely solelyon one marketing campaign or
(31:48):
that first month of your book tocarry you through the rest of
your author career.
So get comfortable creatingcontent and putting yourself out
there.
I mean, there are so manydifferent ways to do that we
could do a whole show on that,like all the different content
you can create and where to putit.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, we've done a show on that.
I'm sure there's a show forthat.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yes, but truly you know.
If you're a nonfiction author,the easy way to look at it is
you need to show people that youhave what it takes, because
they're not just going to trust,because you published a book,
that you are the answer to alltheir problems.
So by creating content inmultiple formats, in different
ways, you are reinforcing thatyou know what you're doing.
Fiction author it's aboutimmersion.
It's about the readerexperience, creating content and
(32:33):
putting extra stuff out there.
Putting in that little extraeffort as part of your
foundation shows readers thatyou care, you're showing up for
them and they're more thanthey're more likely to you know
to get on board with you Ifthey're seeing that you're
putting in the extra effortbeyond just pressing publish on
Amazon, you know.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And then I think that you know if you are you really
want to show.
We always tell authors we liketo work with authors who are
invested in their own success.
And the word invested doesn'tnecessarily mean monetarily, it
(33:18):
just means that you are outthere doing the things.
Show readers that you care,it's not about us.
Show readers that you'reinvested in their experience.
This will really help you tostand out with influencers and
podcasts and media and thingslike that.
Show people that you areengaged in your own success.
(33:40):
And it doesn't mean that youhave to spend hours and hours on
social at all or creating this.
You're like, oh my gosh, Iwrote a book and I'm writing,
trying to write a second bookand now you know, amy and Penny
are telling me that I have towrite more content and I'm never
listening to the show again,like I get it.
But you know, I mean, look,this is a business, right.
(34:01):
I mean we've been around foralmost 25 years.
We do that.
We've been around this longbecause we do really great work,
but also because we payattention to all the
foundational stuff, and Amy isactually really she has an eagle
eye for that stuff and not tobe like not blowing smoke, but
(34:23):
truly like she'll catch stuffthat I don't catch.
It matters, it all matters.
Like I had an author and Iforgot to tell you this.
But we have to now.
We have to dig through thewebsite and figure out where it
is.
I had an author who combedthrough our website and found an
old number of published books.
He goes that number doesn'tmatch up with the number that's
(34:44):
in your proposal of how manybooks that are published every
day, hour, minute, year,whatever.
And I'm like oh my gosh and Iactually made a note.
I'm like find the page, findthe page.
It doesn't mention.
Details matter to readers.
It mattered to this guy becausehe mentioned it.
Mattered enough that hementioned it to me on the phone
and he's probably also trying tobe helpful.
(35:05):
Details matter, matter toreaders Absolutely.
And speaking of websites, have ahome page, have a home base,
have a website, even if it'sjust a one pager.
A lot of times when I tellauthors you need a website, they
overthink it.
And I get it because you seeall these websites.
You're like oh, like you know,I have to have all these pages.
You do not have a one pagewebsite.
Um, just something thatshowcases your work and then you
(35:30):
can always expand it later.
You know you can have um, youknow you can add to the website
as you grow your career, right?
So just just, you know somereally basic stuff.
And the other piece and it's noton our show notes but if you
have like sometimes authors will, you know, deep dive into
(35:53):
social media, be like I'm goingto have all these places, I'm
going to have all these things,I'm going to do all the things.
If you only nearly need to beon one social media site, if you
want to be on multiple and youhave time to update those and
keep that content active,fabulous.
But if you don't, and if youhave paused the use of any
(36:14):
particular site or whateverreason like maybe you got
excited about TikTok and you'rejust like, oh my gosh, I can't
create enough video for TikTok,I get it.
Make sure that you are pinningsomething to the top of those
accounts to let people knowwhere to follow you.
And the second part of thatconversation is pull those links
(36:34):
off of your website.
Yes, right, Don't make peoplego to a page.
It's kind of like invitingpeople to a party that you
forgot to attend, like to attendyour own party.
So don't send people to asocial media account that is
abandoned or whatever.
And you know a lot of peoplelike a lot of people, abandon
their their Twitter, slash X'saccount and fine, or whatever
(36:58):
like, and then the hate turns tofacebook.
Now I hate facebook, so right,so I'm like abandon facebook,
but the facebook profile isstill listed on their website
and then people click it andthey're just like, well, there's
really nothing going on withthis party, um, so I think that
that I think that pretty muchkind of wraps up everything that
(37:20):
we were going to talk about inthis show.
Right, I mean, yeah, um, soagain, we we love.
I know this was a very unsexyshow.
I don't even know how I'm goingto write this up Podcast show,
so people don't just like skipover it, because it's very easy
to do, but you, you, really you.
You can't skip the line, and Ithink that, at the end of the
(37:43):
day, is the core message.
Um, and thank you so much forlistening.
And we love show ideas whereveryou listen to, uh, podcasts.
We love a review, like theauthor who emailed us a review
last week.
If that gets too tricky, we getit.
They don't make it easy.
It's very weird.
Email us the review and we'lladd it to our podcast page.
(38:05):
If you just found us and thisis your first listen not all of
our shows are so unsexy.
I feel like I have to keepapologizing for that joke.
We have a ton of content.
We have five years worth ofshows, so be sure to subscribe
to the podcast and then you'llget us in your feed every single
(38:26):
Friday.
We are awesome, if I do say somyself, and you can also find
all of our prior shows on ourwebsite, and that link is in our
show notes.
Thank you all so much forlistening and we'll see you next
time.
Bye-bye.
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