June 20, 2025 • 34 mins
With a new book hitting the market every eight seconds, standing out has never been harder—and for many authors, the temptation to pay for visibility is real. But does paying for reviews or influencer features actually work? And more importantly… is it worth the risk?
In this episode, Penny Sansevieri and Amy Cornell pull back the curtain on the rapidly shifting world of paid book promotion. From once-taboo paid reviews to TikTok influencers charging thousands per post, the rules have changed—but that doesn’t mean the results are guaranteed.
You’ll hear real-world stories of paid promotions gone sideways, including AI-generated reviews that spoil endings and pricey group ads that vanish without a trace. But it’s not all doom and gloom. Penny and Amy also offer a framework for making smart, strategic choices, including how to vet influencers, what red flags to watch for, and why micro-influencers often deliver more bang for your buck.
Whether you're a debut author or a seasoned pro, this episode is your roadmap for navigating the blurry line between earned and paid media—so you can promote smarter, not just spend more.
Buy Penny's book The Amazon Author Formula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, this is Penny Sansevierie and Amy Cornell and
this is the Book Marketing Tipsand Author Success Podcast and
it's launch day, june 20th.
So excited the book is launchedand the print book launches on
the same day.
Had a lot of requests for theprint book.
My print books tend to bereally popular anyway.
(00:24):
I think people just want tohold them, they want to write in
them, they want to highlight inthem, which I love.
That's so anyway.
That's, if you haven't, if youwere deterred from getting the
ebook, deter no more because theprint book is launches the same
day.
So I'm really excited aboutthat and I want to thank
everybody for your support andgot some really, really, really
(00:46):
nice emails from authors abouthow excited they are for the
next book and things like that,and I'm going to keep writing.
I'm hoping to release anotherbook this year.
Aside from that's actually notAmazon focused.
I know what a shock.
So there's a lot.
There's.
There is a lot more coming, butthe conversation today is a
really interesting.
(01:07):
This is just comes up more andmore and more and I used to be a
really hard no on this andwe'll talk a little bit more in
the show about how that'schanged and the issue is paying
for reviews and coverage.
And, amy, you actually stumbledon this, do you?
(01:31):
And I don't want to get too farahead of what we've outlined in
the show notes, but youstumbled on this conversation in
Reddit.
Right, we love Reddit, we justlove Reddit.
We apparently on Reddit is.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I was seeing conversations about authors
getting more and more wary ofpaying for reviews specifically
(02:11):
from review outlets, because alot of authors seem to think
that these pay to play reviewsare being written by AI now and
they're not actually getting athoughtful review from an
individual that's really readtheir book, and I found that
really interesting too.
(02:31):
Just to add one more you knowfactor, you know consideration
to this conversation about whento do it, when not to do it, all
the things you have to consider, but they were, they
specifically said, and I thoughtthis was interesting.
Again, you know, not to get offinto an entirely different
conversation, but for what it'sworth.
They said you know, I wanted toget this review because I'm
just starting out and I needreviews.
(02:53):
I don't know how else to getthem.
So I definitely paid for somereviews, but some of the reviews
they were getting back, theysaid, just didn't sound like
they were written by somebodythat actually read the book, and
they were this.
One author said that the reviewthat they got actually revealed
some of their biggest plottwists and spoilers.
Oh, no, yes.
And so they said I paid for it,thinking, okay, I'm just
(03:15):
starting out, I'm a debut author, I'm going to, I'm going to
invest a little bit to get somereviews from these known outlets
, you know.
And then the review came backand they said I can't even use
it because I don't want toreveal this, you know.
So they were in a really toughspot.
But so when I saw that and thenI brought it to you know, we
chatted about it.
I just said, you know, as if weneeded to make this more
(03:37):
complicated for authors todecide when it's appropriate or,
potentially, you know youshould consider paying and when
you should definitely step awayfrom that, like you know what I
mean.
So this just adds a whole otherlayer the idea that you know,
getting AI involved and havingit make things easier on some of
these outlets, but then it'slike, wow, then what are you
actually getting?
(03:57):
What are you paying for?
You?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
know, yeah, and you know, I mean, I feel, listen,
listeners, I feel yourdesperation, like I get it,
because it's gotten harder andharder to find legitimate
reviews.
You know review sources, andpart of the reason for that is
just because there are so manybooks published right, so
(04:19):
there's a limited number ofpeople who have the time to read
for free.
I mean, we still work with alot of, we continue to work with
a lot of really amazinginfluencers and if you're
listening, shout out to y'allbecause you do amazing work.
But you know, even then we'veseen influencers get look, my TV
(04:41):
red pile is 72 books deep, andso you're going to be waiting
for three months.
And a lot of times you knowit's both, it's both, like you
said, the author on Reddit, yousaid, you know, look, I'm new.
And in other cases the authorjust like realized oh my gosh,
my book is coming out next week,I need a review.
And they feel this pressure,this general industry pressure,
(05:05):
that I have to get lots and lotsof reviews, and I don't know
how to do that except to pay forreviews.
And so that's why we thoughtthat this episode was a really
good idea.
I mean traditionally, and thisis where I used to be a real
hard pass on this.
Traditionally, editorial reviewswere earned and not paid for,
right?
And then some of the legacyoutlets like Publishers Weekly
(05:28):
and Kirkus.
I remember when Kirkus firststarted doing paid reviews, I
mean they got a lot of backlash.
Now they started doing paidreviews.
I want to say, gosh, maybeseven, eight, maybe even nine
years ago, so it's been quite awhile years ago.
So it's been quite a while, butthey got a lot of backlash.
(05:50):
So in order to offset thatbacklash, it used to be like a
joke in the industry that if youpaid Kirkus to get a review, it
would always be a bad review.
Because at that time, you know,everybody was like oh, you know
, if you're paying for a review,it's always going to be a good
review.
And Kirkus was like neener,neener, neener, like I got you
there, I'm going to, we're justgoing to put a whole bunch of
bad reviews out there.
So, and now obviously that'skind of leveled out a little bit
(06:11):
.
Um, but that's where you know,that's where things used to be.
And now you know, really therise of the influencer has
changed and you know thecombination of there are so many
books published.
There's a book published everyeight seconds, and the rise of
(06:33):
the influencer has, you know,they're like well, we, you know,
we really only have so muchtime and here's what we charge.
And I mean, amy, you've evenseen some independent book
bloggers have tip jars right andhow do they use?
(06:54):
those.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yep, it's wild, like, yeah, so tip jars, or there's,
you know the buy me a coffeething, that kind of right.
Yeah, remember, that got reallypopular for a while and I feel
like either I'm not asinteresting and I'm not seeing
as much as I used to, but thatseemed to be huge for a while
and it kind of died off.
Maybe nobody was using it.
(07:16):
I can honestly say I never did,it's like I never.
But yeah, same thing, tip jars,buy me a coffee, there's all
these.
Now there's just like theselittle nickel and diming ways to
kind of jump the line, so tospeak.
Right, but to your point, somany books being published,
(07:37):
there is a finite number ofoutlets and or thought leaders
that have big enough platformsto where you know what I mean.
People are pitching them overand over and over again.
And, yeah, I mean I don't havethe exact right answer for how
to make all of that work, but itseems to be going to having
tiered options, including somethat are paid or, like we've
(07:57):
seen before, penny too.
The type of coverage you getmay change based on you know how
much time the influencer has,so they may offer you just a
spotlight or something wherethey're not actually reading the
book, but they're going to giveyou a little coverage or
something like that.
So it's amazing how manydifferent options are out there
now.
But the paid thing really seemsto be something that even
(08:19):
influencers are able to jump onnow and demand some form of
payment for their time.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Right, right, right, and we're really focused in this
particular podcast abouttalking about how to weigh
should you do it versus shouldyou not do it.
So hopefully, if you're in thissituation or you've been in
this situation, hopefully thispodcast will answer your
question.
But little known fact.
Uh, broadcast media, teletelevised media has done the pay
(08:53):
to play, but and I and I don'tbelieve that they still do it.
I mean I have never pitchedsomebody in television and they
said, oh well, give us $5,000and we'll put this person on
television.
I think because for themBecause for them it's really
(09:16):
it's a very slippery slope,right, because there's sort of a
I mean it's not that differentfrom an influencer, but it's
very different.
I mean there's a perceived sortof endorsement behind, like if
you're going to have somebody onyour show or whatever, and that
kind of died.
I mean there may be still someplaces out there that do it and
if I'm wrong, by all means reachout to us and let us know and
(09:37):
we'll put a correction up in thenext show.
But they used to do that and Iremember the first time somebody
wrote me back.
They're like yeah, for X amount.
I was just like who are youLike, are you serious?
It was the weirdest thing.
I think this was maybe 12 or so.
It was a while ago.
(10:00):
It was 12 or so years ago.
But you know, and to some degreepart of the reason why I was
very much a hard no on this,where I've sort of changed, that
is, it's hard to be an unknown,right, it's hard to be a first
time author.
We get it.
A lot of our shows arededicated to first-time authors.
You have no platform, nonewsletter, no audience and
getting all of the bigger thingsthat other authors have or that
(10:23):
somebody that you're followinghas or somebody in your book
group.
It's harder to get to thatplace.
It's harder to get tractionright.
It's not impossible, it's justharder just because you know
there's just there's so muchcompetition out there.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right, Just the sheer volume.
You know no-transcript.
(11:19):
First one under your belt andthen all these magical doors
open.
It's not quite that easy.
I wish that was the case.
It's kind of you know, andthat's a great penny.
If that was just what you hadto go through, that would be,
amazing.
Your rite of passage is justget that first one done and then
everything falls into place andit's amazing from there.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Right, I mean, and so so technically like my 24th
book.
Uh, you should be retired bynow.
I am doing this podcast from myvilla in the South of France.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Exactly.
But yeah, it is really hardbecause, again, we help our
clients with this all the time,finding that balance between you
need credibility to earncoverage, but how do you earn
credibility if you're notgetting any coverage?
Yeah, exactly, it's kind of animpossible decision sometimes
and that's why it is getting tothe point where sometimes the
(12:07):
only options in terms ofespecially if you want to get to
that next level you know youcan definitely get reader
reviews without spending a bunchof money I mean, it takes a
bunch of hard work, you knowthere's no magical way around
that, but when we talk toauthors all the time that say I
want to get on a podcast, I wantto get covered by a big time
influencer, I want to getinterviewed by a magazine, like
(12:30):
these are the kinds of thingswe're talking about in terms of
these are next levelopportunities, and it's really
hard to get these if you don'thave a platform already in
existence, you know.
So you really have to buildthat resume and sometimes paying
for opportunities are it isgoing to be the quickest and
(12:51):
most direct way to get there andeven though I gave the Reddit
example, as you know, somethingthat may not be what you're
looking for.
There are a bunch of great.
I mean, we see this withpodcasts, penny, you know these
great kind of mid-level podcasts, not ones that if we said it
right now, everybody listeningwould know what they're called.
But these shows are gettingsome good following and they
(13:14):
will even have small fees justto cover production costs.
You know, yeah, and things likethat that are starting to be a
lot more common than they usedto be.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
A lot of podcasts are doing that.
Now I mean we're not.
We don't have guests on it, bythe way, just as a reminder, we
haven't, we've never had a guest.
We must get like three or fourpitches from people hey, we'd
like to be a guest on your show.
I'm like you don't listen tothe show, pay attention people.
But I think you know, inparticular, I think, the rise of
TikTok, because I noticed this,you know, a handful of years
(13:47):
ago, however long TikTok's beenaround, that these creators were
charging for coverage due tothe volume of requests and so,
which, again, I understand.
But here's the thing, and Iguess maybe it's a good time to
really dive into, should you,should you not?
What to look for?
(14:07):
Because the example that I'mgoing to give you is so there
was a TikTok influencer who cameto us, wanted to review a book,
charged a substantial amount ofmoney to review it, so I want
to say it was like $3,500 or$5,000.
It was somewhere in that range.
But when you looked at theirTikTok account and then their
(14:30):
Instagram account, because theyboth mirrored each other the she
, she did ads, but but her adswere, you know, her ads were
like, like they weren'ttraditional ads.
They were real time ads, likeshe was, and she did everything,
like she did books.
But then she also got invitedonto a cruise.
And so then she was in a roomand I'm like I want to get
(14:52):
invited onto a cruise, like howdo people get like, how do you
get that Right?
But but, um, so she got invitedonto a cruise and then, when
you looked at her feed, younoticed a real separation
between the volume of plays andlikes that she got for her
authentic cover.
It's like this is just me in acar getting you know my morning
(15:15):
Java or whatever, versus her ona cruise, as lovely as that
video was.
So that's something that Ithink you know.
I mean, we'll talk about themoney in just a second, but
that's one thing that I thinkyou really have to look at, too
is if somebody is asking youthere's a whole bunch of
different markers that we'regoing to cover in this show but
(15:37):
if somebody is asking you topony up some money to be in
their TikTok feed or Instagramfeed or whatever BookTube,
whatever, take a look and seewhat they've produced previously
, Because this was somethingwhere I don't blame the
influencer for doing all thesethings, because they're getting
paid and she's, you know, halfmy age, maybe more.
(15:57):
That's embarrassing and she'smaking bank and she's going on
cruises and all this other stuff.
But it doesn't really benefitour author because every time
that she does something thatdips into the ad side of things,
the visibility dropstremendously.
I mean, I want to say like shewould get 10 000 views on a
(16:19):
regular post and she gotsomething like 300 on some of
the ad posts that I saw, sothere was a tremendous drop in
coverage exactly you know,Mm-hmm, Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
And then at that point, is it a review or is it
an ad?
Right?
Do they do hashtag ad?
There's all these other andmaybe those of you listening.
I don't care what they want tocall it and I get it.
I support that 100%.
But that's where this all getsvery tricky and sometimes how
these fees start building up too.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, exactly, and you know personally, amy, I mean
I and I tell authors this allthe time, whether I'm teaching a
class or there, or you know,we're getting hit up by and I
mean we rarely get hit up by aninfluencer who wants money just
because our relationships withour influencers are all based on
they just they love the booksthat we send them and we have a
(17:14):
long-term relationship with them.
But on the occasion when thatdoes happen, um, because we're
you know, we try to reach out tonew people and make new
relationships and stuff it'slike I'll tell an author, I'm
like there's literally no roi ina five thousand dollar ad.
I mean I just, I mean, I meanyou, you do.
You know how many books you'dhave to sell to make up that
(17:34):
$5,000 that you're paying thisinfluencer.
And then the problem with thatis is that I mean especially
like you also have to look.
So if you're debating this, Irecommend we did a show on how
to market your book withoutsocial media, which I realize is
like anti-this show, becausewe're talking about social media
influencers, but in that showwe talk about the burn rate,
(17:56):
right, so there is an instantburn rate or an instant decay on
TikTok.
So you only have like amicrosecond to get people
interested in that video thatyou paid $5,000 for, and the
same thing really is true forInstagram too.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So you really want I mean I tread very cautiously
with that- oh my gosh and Penny,how many times or maybe it's
just me, but where I'm onInstagram or something and I'm
watching a reel or and it's likeit's an account that I don't
follow, and then you like, yourfinger hits the screen or
something and you lose it andyou'll never see it again.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You'll never see it again and I cannot tell you.
I just Instagram, if you'relistening.
I've lost a lot of really cutedog videos.
It's so many things.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's upsetting.
Yes, I'll be watching a recipeor something like that.
I'm like, oh, I think I mightwant to make this.
And then my stupid touch thescreen and it's gone.
I'm like, well, I'll never beable to make that because I'll
never find it again in the pitsof Instagram, you know Right.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And unless you know, like unless you know the name or
whatever I mean.
Even I even tried.
I got so desperate one timetrying to find something again,
I looked at the hashtag and letme tell you this right now,
instagram, your hashtags leave alot to be desired, because you
can't find it.
You can't find it on TikTok.
I mean, TikTok has a differentalgorithm, but it's still the
same problem.
(19:17):
So when that vanishes, it'sjust gone.
You know which is?
Which is a little terrifying.
Everybody right now islistening.
It's just like why are theyeven doing this show?
They just both they're hatingon it.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Well and I well, but I will say, for what it's worth
and you mentioned this, Penny wehave some great relationships
with some genuine, like superfan, super reader, book
influencers that do theseextremely thoughtful, extensive,
detailed posts thoughtful,extensive, detailed posts.
(19:50):
And you know their Instagramsare beautiful and it's really
what they do.
You know what I mean and Ithink that's something, too,
that stands out as well.
So to your point about the gal,that kind of is a little all
over the place.
Yes, she's got a greatfollowing.
Yes, she probably sells a lotof product for some of the
(20:11):
companies that partner with her,but is she necessarily the
right match for a book?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly,and I think you know if somebody
is.
I mean, if you're going tothrow $100 at something, you got
to figure even though there'smore ROI in a hundred bucks than
there is in 5,000.
You got to figure that ifyou're going to pay everybody a
hundred bucks, that's going toadd up really quickly.
(20:37):
So be really selective.
The other thing is is that ifsomebody and we had this,
actually we we this, forwhatever reason.
This came up on a team call andI was talking about when I used
to run Google ads for ourcompany, which we don't do
(20:58):
anymore but and at that timesome book bloggers were saying
well, ok, so we'll review yourbook if you buy an ad on our
site and this was again, thisgoes back 10 years, whatever.
And when somebody invites you toput an ad, says look, you can
(21:18):
put an ad up on our site, theyhave to release their metrics,
right, they have to betransparent about their metrics.
You should be able to get and Idon't necessarily mean just
here's a page on my website soyou can see my numbers.
Depending on how much you.
I mean for a hundred bucks,you're probably not going to get
a real deep dive transparency,but you should be able to get
metrics.
(21:39):
You know what I mean.
I mean, if anybody wants me topay, anything I'm asking for I
want to see your, you know, andI want to see your best videos
and I want to see what they'reabout and I want to you know.
So those are some really smartquestions that you can ask.
If somebody is offering thisand it is very it's super
tempting to do it.
(21:59):
Oh, yeah, it's super tempting.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Huh, oh no, I was going to say yes, it's very
tempting.
And even the difference betweena site that is very book
centric, that does a lot ofposting, versus are you getting
an opportunity where you'redefinitely getting a review you
know what I mean.
(22:22):
And both are.
They both have those are bothgood things.
I mean, I think coverage isgreat.
You know, I like to use theterm owning more online real
estate and I think that's afabulous thing and there's
nothing wrong with that.
But when it comes to how muchyou're going to pay if we're
talking about pay to playopportunities, really deciding,
(22:46):
you know, be very strategicabout if you're going to have a
budget for paying for someopportunities, be really careful
about which ones you choose.
You know, because you can geton some smaller like we're
talking quality over quantityhere smaller sites that have
maybe a smaller reach, but thepeople they do reach really
listen to them.
You know things like that nichepodcast that don't charge
(23:09):
anything.
You know right, it takes somehard work but it's worth it and
it's work you need to be doinganyway.
Sorry if that's a huge spoiler,but it's work you need to be
doing anyway and we've talkedabout that before on media shows
Penny about balancing, goingafter different levels,
different tiers, knowing whatmakes sense for your platform,
(23:30):
for your brand, for your budget.
All those kinds of things comeinto play.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, exactly.
And you know the other thing,though, too, and it's funny
because we just we're we'reworking with an author that I
talked to last week and she andI were talking about.
So we're working in conjunctionwith her publisher and they're
doing a lot of the big media andshe's like you know, I'm really
and I thought this was such asavvy thing to say she goes.
(23:56):
Like you know, I'm really notthat impressed with big media.
She goes.
I would rather have somebodythat is narrowly focused, that
is a quote unquote sort of microinfluencer that has, you know,
because she goes, it's betterfor me if somebody has 10,000
followers and they're all likeeager and excited to hear
(24:17):
everything that this person says, versus if they have 10 million
followers and, like you know,four of them go out and buy
something like that.
You know what I mean.
So I think that's another thing, too.
As an author, we always feelespecially if you're new in this
, because you, you know, youread a lot online, maybe you're
(24:38):
in a writer's group or maybe youwent to a writer's conference
there's all these authors doingall this fabulous stuff and oh,
I'm so famous and all this otherstuff.
I get it, I get that it'sreally hard to not want to pay
to be part of that exclusivegroup, right.
But the other thing, though,too, is that I think looking for
(25:00):
those micro-influencers who arereally dedicated to your topic,
who are dedicated to, you know,putting out really, really
quality content, you are so muchbetter served, and a lot of
times, building relationshipswith them starts early, and I'll
mention what I mean about thatin a second.
(25:20):
But I mean, those are somerelationships that, especially
if you're writing more books onthis topic, that you can carry
through year after year afteryear and I don't know, I'm
pretty sure after five years,I'm almost positive we've done a
show on brand marketing versusbook marketing.
(25:41):
So talking about, because a lotof times authors ask us I mean,
we've done a show on this.
How many like when authors askus okay, my book comes out in
three months or five months ortwo months or whatever, what can
I do now?
And we talk to them about brandmarketing.
Five months or two months orwhatever, what can I do now?
And we talked to them aboutbrand marketing.
So getting out there andtalking, following influencers,
commenting on their posts,making friends, networking,
(26:02):
doing all the things.
Have we done a show on that?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I'm sure we have.
We could certainly do anotherone, though, because we
definitely get that questionenough.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We should do another one.
Yeah, because when you do, whenyou start early enough and I
and I apologize to those of youlistening you're just like oh
thanks, penny, my book comes outnext week, and always next time
, there's always next time.
But that's where, when youstart, the best time to network
(26:31):
is when you don't have anythingto sell.
So that's the other thing toois that as you start to build
those relationships like we havebuilt those relationships after
25 years of being in business,those same relationships you can
also foster and grow, and thenthe issue of paying becomes
potentially, hopefully, lessprominent.
I mean, I don't think that, Idon't believe that this is going
(26:55):
to be like a universal thing inthe industry where everybody,
you just pay to play, all I,just I.
I find that really hard tobelieve that that's ever going
to be really a thing.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
No, but I think you're right, penny, at some
point.
You know timelines, timecrunches, where you really you
know it's the one thing youforgot to do or you're like no,
or your book maybe takes offpretty well with readers and
you're like I want to capitalizeon this momentum, maybe I need
to pay and get an industryreview to kind of keep this
going.
(27:24):
You know, there's a lot of wayswhere you can be strategic
about smartly paying for, youknow, a well-named review or
something like that.
But just know what you'regetting into.
And to the point of thepersonal Reddit, you know, and,
like you said, penny, get toknow the person's content.
(27:45):
Get to know, read some of thereviews that that outlet has put
out recently.
You know, get an idea forwhether or not they sound like
they came from somebody whoreally invested time in the book
, or if they sound like aglorified synopsis.
You know what I mean.
And then you have to decidelike do I really want to pay for
that or is this something thatI'm going to hold off on?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Well, and Amy, I think as a final point and you
put this actually in the shownotes and I don't we haven't
really really addressed this isdo they disclose payment?
Because that also createspotentially a less than
authentic feature, right?
Right, I mean because theymight put a hat on the post or
(28:27):
something you know.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't want anybody listeningto feel like, oh no, like I paid
for something or I was going todo that.
We're not saying that there's ahard and fast yes or no rule to
this by any means, but since itis becoming more common,
definitely this was.
I'm glad we talked about thisbecause these decisions are hard
(28:51):
and especially for those of youthat are just starting out.
We fully respect that.
You have a lot of decisions tomake and it gets overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Well, and I think that you know one of the things
that we've seen a lot and thesecompanies shall remain nameless,
even though you and I both know, and listeners if you listen
for a while you know that Ireally want to name like I want
to name names, I want to callpeople out, know that I really
want to name, like I want toname names, I want to call
people out.
But there are some companiesout there that will resell ad
(29:19):
space and package it likethey're actually doing PR for
you, right?
So I talked to an author sixmonths ago, I guess, or maybe it
was late last year, and he waslike I'm working with a company
and they're doing PR and theyhad me buy an ad in the New York
(29:40):
Times for $5,000.
It was maybe more, maybe it was$7,500 at that point and
basically what he was gettingwas a tiny little picture of his
book with 20 other books in thead.
Like it wasn't, like he wasn'tgetting buying, buying a whole
page of the New York times,right, it was just think
nobody's going to see that.
Like, I'm sorry, with all duerespect, like we all love the
(30:02):
New York times, we get it Likethe book section everybody wants
to be in there.
I get it.
You do not want to be in therewith ads.
So there are some things thatare still a hard pass, with me
not being one of them.
So that's another thing to kindof be careful of is if you're
looking at companies and theentire proposal is just where
(30:23):
they're running ads.
I would, because you knowhonestly I mean because people
ask me that all the time whenI'm on the phone with them like
well, do you do?
Do you do paid ads on Kirkus?
I'm like no, why would we?
Because you can do that on yourown Right.
You know what I mean Like youwant to hire a marketing firm to
do the things to get theungettable get.
(30:44):
You want to hire a marketingteam to do things that you can't
do on your own, otherwise, whyyou're, I'm a little sure, like
super busy is.
I respect that, but I mean youknow, no, we're not paying for
reviews and publishers weekly orkirkus, not because we're have
strong feelings, we're hating onall the things.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Like, just like you could do that on your own right,
you don't want to hire a teamfor that kind of work again,
unless you just have a bunch ofmoney to throw around.
And then you, you know, I guess, throw it our way.
I suppose and with that you'reright, penny there are plenty of
companies that are like, yes,that's what we want you to pay
us for.
And it's like, oh, you know,that part's not.
(31:25):
I personally don't even findthat fun, like I tell people all
the time that write in.
You know, I was like, believeit or not, penny and I actually
have our hands in a lot of thisstuff because those are the
things we love to do.
So, yes, we're in email and yes, penny's on the phone.
But believe it or not?
(31:47):
we love the time we get to spendwith the actual creative
marketing efforts.
We love it and that's what weget excited about and that's why
we like doing these shows too,because we get it like that kind
of fuels our fire too.
But I think some people arereally surprised when they find
out that you and I just aren'tin email all day and that's how
we spend our time.
I'm like, no, actually we tryto do that as little as possible
so we can actually go back tothe fun marketing stuff that we
like to do.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I mean working with our authors and actually,
you know it's funny because wehad a really big brainstorming
week last week.
We came up with some greatideas for authors and actually
I'm going to email you, amy,after the show.
I want to do a show on brandmarketing versus book marketing
because obviously we haven'tdone it in a while.
But also, just, I mean, emailkills creativity.
(32:28):
I mean it just, you know, I'msorry, it just does, but we love
being in that creative spaceand I think that that's what
makes it hard.
I'm sorry, it just does, but welove being in that creative
space and I think that if that'swhat makes it hard, I think for
authors who are also in theredoing their own marketing,
they're like I, I don't want todo this, like I don't want to do
my own accounting, right, right, you know what I mean.
They don't like it just sucks,like this, and I had an author
(32:50):
tell me that the other day likethis just sucks the life out of
me.
I'm like I get it.
If you don't like it, youshouldn't do it.
You know?
Um, I would love to know, andyou can leave it in the comments
on um social media, causeobviously we promote these on.
So we promote these shows, um,on our Instagram feed and my
(33:11):
TikTok videos, which I juststarted doing.
I really hate doing video, butI'm doing tech.
I'm going kicking and screaminginto the TikTok video thing.
Um, finally, like I, I'm suchnot a trend follower, I I such a
camera, but anyway I'm finallyhere.
So, anyway, welcome me allTikTokers, Cause I'm finally
(33:33):
joined the party party.
But I'd love to know, if y'allyou know anybody, did you pay?
What was your experience?
Um, join in this conversationbecause I think the other thing
that I really love about thispodcast is that it does get
authors talking and sharing withother authors, and that is
that's a really cool thing.
So we also love reviews and, bythe way, if this is your first
(33:55):
show, we're generally not quiteso bitter.
So, no, we are, go back through.
If first off.
If this is your first show,welcome.
We're so glad that you're here,but go back through some of our
, because we have five years ofshows, so definitely, you know,
check out some of our back ourlist of prior shows that we've
(34:19):
done.
And we love reviews whereveryou listen to podcasts, so
please leave us a review.
We got a couple of new reviews,which were always very.
We always check that before westart recording the show.
We get very excited about that.
If it's, you do have to followthe show in order to be able to
leave a review, so follow us.
(34:42):
You'll get an episode everyFriday in your app or wherever
you listen to podcasts, andwe'll see you next time.
Bye-bye.
Hello, this is Penny Sansevierie and Amy Cornell and
this is the Book Marketing Tipsand Author Success Podcast and
it's launch day, june 20th.
So excited the book is launchedand the print book launches on
the same day.
Had a lot of requests for theprint book.
My print books tend to bereally popular anyway.
(00:24):
I think people just want tohold them, they want to write in
them, they want to highlight inthem, which I love.
That's so anyway.
That's, if you haven't, if youwere deterred from getting the
ebook, deter no more because theprint book is launches the same
day.
So I'm really excited aboutthat and I want to thank
everybody for your support andgot some really, really, really
(00:46):
nice emails from authors abouthow excited they are for the
next book and things like that,and I'm going to keep writing.
I'm hoping to release anotherbook this year.
Aside from that's actually notAmazon focused.
I know what a shock.
So there's a lot.
There's.
There is a lot more coming, butthe conversation today is a
really interesting.
(01:07):
This is just comes up more andmore and more and I used to be a
really hard no on this andwe'll talk a little bit more in
the show about how that'schanged and the issue is paying
for reviews and coverage.
And, amy, you actually stumbledon this, do you?
(01:31):
And I don't want to get too farahead of what we've outlined in
the show notes, but youstumbled on this conversation in
Reddit.
Right, we love Reddit, we justlove Reddit.
We apparently on Reddit is.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I was seeing conversations about authors
getting more and more wary ofpaying for reviews specifically
(02:11):
from review outlets, because alot of authors seem to think
that these pay to play reviewsare being written by AI now and
they're not actually getting athoughtful review from an
individual that's really readtheir book, and I found that
really interesting too.
(02:31):
Just to add one more you knowfactor, you know consideration
to this conversation about whento do it, when not to do it, all
the things you have to consider, but they were, they
specifically said, and I thoughtthis was interesting.
Again, you know, not to get offinto an entirely different
conversation, but for what it'sworth.
They said you know, I wanted toget this review because I'm
just starting out and I needreviews.
(02:53):
I don't know how else to getthem.
So I definitely paid for somereviews, but some of the reviews
they were getting back, theysaid, just didn't sound like
they were written by somebodythat actually read the book, and
they were this.
One author said that the reviewthat they got actually revealed
some of their biggest plottwists and spoilers.
Oh, no, yes.
And so they said I paid for it,thinking, okay, I'm just
(03:15):
starting out, I'm a debut author, I'm going to, I'm going to
invest a little bit to get somereviews from these known outlets
, you know.
And then the review came backand they said I can't even use
it because I don't want toreveal this, you know.
So they were in a really toughspot.
But so when I saw that and thenI brought it to you know, we
chatted about it.
I just said, you know, as if weneeded to make this more
(03:37):
complicated for authors todecide when it's appropriate or,
potentially, you know youshould consider paying and when
you should definitely step awayfrom that, like you know what I
mean.
So this just adds a whole otherlayer the idea that you know,
getting AI involved and havingit make things easier on some of
these outlets, but then it'slike, wow, then what are you
actually getting?
(03:57):
What are you paying for?
You?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
know, yeah, and you know, I mean, I feel, listen,
listeners, I feel yourdesperation, like I get it,
because it's gotten harder andharder to find legitimate
reviews.
You know review sources, andpart of the reason for that is
just because there are so manybooks published right, so
(04:19):
there's a limited number ofpeople who have the time to read
for free.
I mean, we still work with alot of, we continue to work with
a lot of really amazinginfluencers and if you're
listening, shout out to y'allbecause you do amazing work.
But you know, even then we'veseen influencers get look, my TV
(04:41):
red pile is 72 books deep, andso you're going to be waiting
for three months.
And a lot of times you knowit's both, it's both, like you
said, the author on Reddit, yousaid, you know, look, I'm new.
And in other cases the authorjust like realized oh my gosh,
my book is coming out next week,I need a review.
And they feel this pressure,this general industry pressure,
(05:05):
that I have to get lots and lotsof reviews, and I don't know
how to do that except to pay forreviews.
And so that's why we thoughtthat this episode was a really
good idea.
I mean traditionally, and thisis where I used to be a real
hard pass on this.
Traditionally, editorial reviewswere earned and not paid for,
right?
And then some of the legacyoutlets like Publishers Weekly
(05:28):
and Kirkus.
I remember when Kirkus firststarted doing paid reviews, I
mean they got a lot of backlash.
Now they started doing paidreviews.
I want to say, gosh, maybeseven, eight, maybe even nine
years ago, so it's been quite awhile years ago.
So it's been quite a while, butthey got a lot of backlash.
(05:50):
So in order to offset thatbacklash, it used to be like a
joke in the industry that if youpaid Kirkus to get a review, it
would always be a bad review.
Because at that time, you know,everybody was like oh, you know
, if you're paying for a review,it's always going to be a good
review.
And Kirkus was like neener,neener, neener, like I got you
there, I'm going to, we're justgoing to put a whole bunch of
bad reviews out there.
So, and now obviously that'skind of leveled out a little bit
(06:11):
.
Um, but that's where you know,that's where things used to be.
And now you know, really therise of the influencer has
changed and you know thecombination of there are so many
books published.
There's a book published everyeight seconds, and the rise of
(06:33):
the influencer has, you know,they're like well, we, you know,
we really only have so muchtime and here's what we charge.
And I mean, amy, you've evenseen some independent book
bloggers have tip jars right andhow do they use?
(06:54):
those.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yep, it's wild, like, yeah, so tip jars, or there's,
you know the buy me a coffeething, that kind of right.
Yeah, remember, that got reallypopular for a while and I feel
like either I'm not asinteresting and I'm not seeing
as much as I used to, but thatseemed to be huge for a while
and it kind of died off.
Maybe nobody was using it.
(07:16):
I can honestly say I never did,it's like I never.
But yeah, same thing, tip jars,buy me a coffee, there's all
these.
Now there's just like theselittle nickel and diming ways to
kind of jump the line, so tospeak.
Right, but to your point, somany books being published,
(07:37):
there is a finite number ofoutlets and or thought leaders
that have big enough platformsto where you know what I mean.
People are pitching them overand over and over again.
And, yeah, I mean I don't havethe exact right answer for how
to make all of that work, but itseems to be going to having
tiered options, including somethat are paid or, like we've
(07:57):
seen before, penny too.
The type of coverage you getmay change based on you know how
much time the influencer has,so they may offer you just a
spotlight or something wherethey're not actually reading the
book, but they're going to giveyou a little coverage or
something like that.
So it's amazing how manydifferent options are out there
now.
But the paid thing really seemsto be something that even
(08:19):
influencers are able to jump onnow and demand some form of
payment for their time.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Right, right, right, and we're really focused in this
particular podcast abouttalking about how to weigh
should you do it versus shouldyou not do it.
So hopefully, if you're in thissituation or you've been in
this situation, hopefully thispodcast will answer your
question.
But little known fact.
Uh, broadcast media, teletelevised media has done the pay
(08:53):
to play, but and I and I don'tbelieve that they still do it.
I mean I have never pitchedsomebody in television and they
said, oh well, give us $5,000and we'll put this person on
television.
I think because for themBecause for them it's really
(09:16):
it's a very slippery slope,right, because there's sort of a
I mean it's not that differentfrom an influencer, but it's
very different.
I mean there's a perceived sortof endorsement behind, like if
you're going to have somebody onyour show or whatever, and that
kind of died.
I mean there may be still someplaces out there that do it and
if I'm wrong, by all means reachout to us and let us know and
(09:37):
we'll put a correction up in thenext show.
But they used to do that and Iremember the first time somebody
wrote me back.
They're like yeah, for X amount.
I was just like who are youLike, are you serious?
It was the weirdest thing.
I think this was maybe 12 or so.
It was a while ago.
(10:00):
It was 12 or so years ago.
But you know, and to some degreepart of the reason why I was
very much a hard no on this,where I've sort of changed, that
is, it's hard to be an unknown,right, it's hard to be a first
time author.
We get it.
A lot of our shows arededicated to first-time authors.
You have no platform, nonewsletter, no audience and
getting all of the bigger thingsthat other authors have or that
(10:23):
somebody that you're followinghas or somebody in your book
group.
It's harder to get to thatplace.
It's harder to get tractionright.
It's not impossible, it's justharder just because you know
there's just there's so muchcompetition out there.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right, Just the sheer volume.
You know no-transcript.
(11:19):
First one under your belt andthen all these magical doors
open.
It's not quite that easy.
I wish that was the case.
It's kind of you know, andthat's a great penny.
If that was just what you hadto go through, that would be,
amazing.
Your rite of passage is justget that first one done and then
everything falls into place andit's amazing from there.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Right, I mean, and so so technically like my 24th
book.
Uh, you should be retired bynow.
I am doing this podcast from myvilla in the South of France.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Exactly.
But yeah, it is really hardbecause, again, we help our
clients with this all the time,finding that balance between you
need credibility to earncoverage, but how do you earn
credibility if you're notgetting any coverage?
Yeah, exactly, it's kind of animpossible decision sometimes
and that's why it is getting tothe point where sometimes the
(12:07):
only options in terms ofespecially if you want to get to
that next level you know youcan definitely get reader
reviews without spending a bunchof money I mean, it takes a
bunch of hard work, you knowthere's no magical way around
that, but when we talk toauthors all the time that say I
want to get on a podcast, I wantto get covered by a big time
influencer, I want to getinterviewed by a magazine, like
(12:30):
these are the kinds of thingswe're talking about in terms of
these are next levelopportunities, and it's really
hard to get these if you don'thave a platform already in
existence, you know.
So you really have to buildthat resume and sometimes paying
for opportunities are it isgoing to be the quickest and
(12:51):
most direct way to get there andeven though I gave the Reddit
example, as you know, somethingthat may not be what you're
looking for.
There are a bunch of great.
I mean, we see this withpodcasts, penny, you know these
great kind of mid-level podcasts, not ones that if we said it
right now, everybody listeningwould know what they're called.
But these shows are gettingsome good following and they
(13:14):
will even have small fees justto cover production costs.
You know, yeah, and things likethat that are starting to be a
lot more common than they usedto be.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
A lot of podcasts are doing that.
Now I mean we're not.
We don't have guests on it, bythe way, just as a reminder, we
haven't, we've never had a guest.
We must get like three or fourpitches from people hey, we'd
like to be a guest on your show.
I'm like you don't listen tothe show, pay attention people.
But I think you know, inparticular, I think, the rise of
TikTok, because I noticed this,you know, a handful of years
(13:47):
ago, however long TikTok's beenaround, that these creators were
charging for coverage due tothe volume of requests and so,
which, again, I understand.
But here's the thing, and Iguess maybe it's a good time to
really dive into, should you,should you not?
What to look for?
(14:07):
Because the example that I'mgoing to give you is so there
was a TikTok influencer who cameto us, wanted to review a book,
charged a substantial amount ofmoney to review it, so I want
to say it was like $3,500 or$5,000.
It was somewhere in that range.
But when you looked at theirTikTok account and then their
(14:30):
Instagram account, because theyboth mirrored each other the she
, she did ads, but but her adswere, you know, her ads were
like, like they weren'ttraditional ads.
They were real time ads, likeshe was, and she did everything,
like she did books.
But then she also got invitedonto a cruise.
And so then she was in a roomand I'm like I want to get
(14:52):
invited onto a cruise, like howdo people get like, how do you
get that Right?
But but, um, so she got invitedonto a cruise and then, when
you looked at her feed, younoticed a real separation
between the volume of plays andlikes that she got for her
authentic cover.
It's like this is just me in acar getting you know my morning
(15:15):
Java or whatever, versus her ona cruise, as lovely as that
video was.
So that's something that Ithink you know.
I mean, we'll talk about themoney in just a second, but
that's one thing that I thinkyou really have to look at, too
is if somebody is asking youthere's a whole bunch of
different markers that we'regoing to cover in this show but
(15:37):
if somebody is asking you topony up some money to be in
their TikTok feed or Instagramfeed or whatever BookTube,
whatever, take a look and seewhat they've produced previously
, Because this was somethingwhere I don't blame the
influencer for doing all thesethings, because they're getting
paid and she's, you know, halfmy age, maybe more.
(15:57):
That's embarrassing and she'smaking bank and she's going on
cruises and all this other stuff.
But it doesn't really benefitour author because every time
that she does something thatdips into the ad side of things,
the visibility dropstremendously.
I mean, I want to say like shewould get 10 000 views on a
(16:19):
regular post and she gotsomething like 300 on some of
the ad posts that I saw, sothere was a tremendous drop in
coverage exactly you know,Mm-hmm, Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
And then at that point, is it a review or is it
an ad?
Right?
Do they do hashtag ad?
There's all these other andmaybe those of you listening.
I don't care what they want tocall it and I get it.
I support that 100%.
But that's where this all getsvery tricky and sometimes how
these fees start building up too.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, exactly, and you know personally, amy, I mean
I and I tell authors this allthe time, whether I'm teaching a
class or there, or you know,we're getting hit up by and I
mean we rarely get hit up by aninfluencer who wants money just
because our relationships withour influencers are all based on
they just they love the booksthat we send them and we have a
(17:14):
long-term relationship with them.
But on the occasion when thatdoes happen, um, because we're
you know, we try to reach out tonew people and make new
relationships and stuff it'slike I'll tell an author, I'm
like there's literally no roi ina five thousand dollar ad.
I mean I just, I mean, I meanyou, you do.
You know how many books you'dhave to sell to make up that
(17:34):
$5,000 that you're paying thisinfluencer.
And then the problem with thatis is that I mean especially
like you also have to look.
So if you're debating this, Irecommend we did a show on how
to market your book withoutsocial media, which I realize is
like anti-this show, becausewe're talking about social media
influencers, but in that showwe talk about the burn rate,
(17:56):
right, so there is an instantburn rate or an instant decay on
TikTok.
So you only have like amicrosecond to get people
interested in that video thatyou paid $5,000 for, and the
same thing really is true forInstagram too.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So you really want I mean I tread very cautiously
with that- oh my gosh and Penny,how many times or maybe it's
just me, but where I'm onInstagram or something and I'm
watching a reel or and it's likeit's an account that I don't
follow, and then you like, yourfinger hits the screen or
something and you lose it andyou'll never see it again.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You'll never see it again and I cannot tell you.
I just Instagram, if you'relistening.
I've lost a lot of really cutedog videos.
It's so many things.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's upsetting.
Yes, I'll be watching a recipeor something like that.
I'm like, oh, I think I mightwant to make this.
And then my stupid touch thescreen and it's gone.
I'm like, well, I'll never beable to make that because I'll
never find it again in the pitsof Instagram, you know Right.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And unless you know, like unless you know the name or
whatever I mean.
Even I even tried.
I got so desperate one timetrying to find something again,
I looked at the hashtag and letme tell you this right now,
instagram, your hashtags leave alot to be desired, because you
can't find it.
You can't find it on TikTok.
I mean, TikTok has a differentalgorithm, but it's still the
same problem.
(19:17):
So when that vanishes, it'sjust gone.
You know which is?
Which is a little terrifying.
Everybody right now islistening.
It's just like why are theyeven doing this show?
They just both they're hatingon it.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Well and I well, but I will say, for what it's worth
and you mentioned this, Penny wehave some great relationships
with some genuine, like superfan, super reader, book
influencers that do theseextremely thoughtful, extensive,
detailed posts thoughtful,extensive, detailed posts.
(19:50):
And you know their Instagramsare beautiful and it's really
what they do.
You know what I mean and Ithink that's something, too,
that stands out as well.
So to your point about the gal,that kind of is a little all
over the place.
Yes, she's got a greatfollowing.
Yes, she probably sells a lotof product for some of the
(20:11):
companies that partner with her,but is she necessarily the
right match for a book?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly,and I think you know if somebody
is.
I mean, if you're going tothrow $100 at something, you got
to figure even though there'smore ROI in a hundred bucks than
there is in 5,000.
You got to figure that ifyou're going to pay everybody a
hundred bucks, that's going toadd up really quickly.
(20:37):
So be really selective.
The other thing is is that ifsomebody and we had this,
actually we we this, forwhatever reason.
This came up on a team call andI was talking about when I used
to run Google ads for ourcompany, which we don't do
(20:58):
anymore but and at that timesome book bloggers were saying
well, ok, so we'll review yourbook if you buy an ad on our
site and this was again, thisgoes back 10 years, whatever.
And when somebody invites you toput an ad, says look, you can
(21:18):
put an ad up on our site, theyhave to release their metrics,
right, they have to betransparent about their metrics.
You should be able to get and Idon't necessarily mean just
here's a page on my website soyou can see my numbers.
Depending on how much you.
I mean for a hundred bucks,you're probably not going to get
a real deep dive transparency,but you should be able to get
metrics.
(21:39):
You know what I mean.
I mean, if anybody wants me topay, anything I'm asking for I
want to see your, you know, andI want to see your best videos
and I want to see what they'reabout and I want to you know.
So those are some really smartquestions that you can ask.
If somebody is offering thisand it is very it's super
tempting to do it.
(21:59):
Oh, yeah, it's super tempting.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Huh, oh no, I was going to say yes, it's very
tempting.
And even the difference betweena site that is very book
centric, that does a lot ofposting, versus are you getting
an opportunity where you'redefinitely getting a review you
know what I mean.
(22:22):
And both are.
They both have those are bothgood things.
I mean, I think coverage isgreat.
You know, I like to use theterm owning more online real
estate and I think that's afabulous thing and there's
nothing wrong with that.
But when it comes to how muchyou're going to pay if we're
talking about pay to playopportunities, really deciding,
(22:46):
you know, be very strategicabout if you're going to have a
budget for paying for someopportunities, be really careful
about which ones you choose.
You know, because you can geton some smaller like we're
talking quality over quantityhere smaller sites that have
maybe a smaller reach, but thepeople they do reach really
listen to them.
You know things like that nichepodcast that don't charge
(23:09):
anything.
You know right, it takes somehard work but it's worth it and
it's work you need to be doinganyway.
Sorry if that's a huge spoiler,but it's work you need to be
doing anyway and we've talkedabout that before on media shows
Penny about balancing, goingafter different levels,
different tiers, knowing whatmakes sense for your platform,
(23:30):
for your brand, for your budget.
All those kinds of things comeinto play.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, exactly.
And you know the other thing,though, too, and it's funny
because we just we're we'reworking with an author that I
talked to last week and she andI were talking about.
So we're working in conjunctionwith her publisher and they're
doing a lot of the big media andshe's like you know, I'm really
and I thought this was such asavvy thing to say she goes.
(23:56):
Like you know, I'm really notthat impressed with big media.
She goes.
I would rather have somebodythat is narrowly focused, that
is a quote unquote sort of microinfluencer that has, you know,
because she goes, it's betterfor me if somebody has 10,000
followers and they're all likeeager and excited to hear
(24:17):
everything that this person says, versus if they have 10 million
followers and, like you know,four of them go out and buy
something like that.
You know what I mean.
So I think that's another thing, too.
As an author, we always feelespecially if you're new in this
, because you, you know, youread a lot online, maybe you're
(24:38):
in a writer's group or maybe youwent to a writer's conference
there's all these authors doingall this fabulous stuff and oh,
I'm so famous and all this otherstuff.
I get it, I get that it'sreally hard to not want to pay
to be part of that exclusivegroup, right.
But the other thing, though,too, is that I think looking for
(25:00):
those micro-influencers who arereally dedicated to your topic,
who are dedicated to, you know,putting out really, really
quality content, you are so muchbetter served, and a lot of
times, building relationshipswith them starts early, and I'll
mention what I mean about thatin a second.
(25:20):
But I mean, those are somerelationships that, especially
if you're writing more books onthis topic, that you can carry
through year after year afteryear and I don't know, I'm
pretty sure after five years,I'm almost positive we've done a
show on brand marketing versusbook marketing.
(25:41):
So talking about, because a lotof times authors ask us I mean,
we've done a show on this.
How many like when authors askus okay, my book comes out in
three months or five months ortwo months or whatever, what can
I do now?
And we talk to them about brandmarketing.
Five months or two months orwhatever, what can I do now?
And we talked to them aboutbrand marketing.
So getting out there andtalking, following influencers,
commenting on their posts,making friends, networking,
(26:02):
doing all the things.
Have we done a show on that?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I'm sure we have.
We could certainly do anotherone, though, because we
definitely get that questionenough.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We should do another one.
Yeah, because when you do, whenyou start early enough and I
and I apologize to those of youlistening you're just like oh
thanks, penny, my book comes outnext week, and always next time
, there's always next time.
But that's where, when youstart, the best time to network
(26:31):
is when you don't have anythingto sell.
So that's the other thing toois that as you start to build
those relationships like we havebuilt those relationships after
25 years of being in business,those same relationships you can
also foster and grow, and thenthe issue of paying becomes
potentially, hopefully, lessprominent.
I mean, I don't think that, Idon't believe that this is going
(26:55):
to be like a universal thing inthe industry where everybody,
you just pay to play, all I,just I.
I find that really hard tobelieve that that's ever going
to be really a thing.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
No, but I think you're right, penny, at some
point.
You know timelines, timecrunches, where you really you
know it's the one thing youforgot to do or you're like no,
or your book maybe takes offpretty well with readers and
you're like I want to capitalizeon this momentum, maybe I need
to pay and get an industryreview to kind of keep this
going.
(27:24):
You know, there's a lot of wayswhere you can be strategic
about smartly paying for, youknow, a well-named review or
something like that.
But just know what you'regetting into.
And to the point of thepersonal Reddit, you know, and,
like you said, penny, get toknow the person's content.
(27:45):
Get to know, read some of thereviews that that outlet has put
out recently.
You know, get an idea forwhether or not they sound like
they came from somebody whoreally invested time in the book
, or if they sound like aglorified synopsis.
You know what I mean.
And then you have to decidelike do I really want to pay for
that or is this something thatI'm going to hold off on?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Well, and Amy, I think as a final point and you
put this actually in the shownotes and I don't we haven't
really really addressed this isdo they disclose payment?
Because that also createspotentially a less than
authentic feature, right?
Right, I mean because theymight put a hat on the post or
(28:27):
something you know.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't want anybody listeningto feel like, oh no, like I paid
for something or I was going todo that.
We're not saying that there's ahard and fast yes or no rule to
this by any means, but since itis becoming more common,
definitely this was.
I'm glad we talked about thisbecause these decisions are hard
(28:51):
and especially for those of youthat are just starting out.
We fully respect that.
You have a lot of decisions tomake and it gets overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Well, and I think that you know one of the things
that we've seen a lot and thesecompanies shall remain nameless,
even though you and I both know, and listeners if you listen
for a while you know that Ireally want to name like I want
to name names, I want to callpeople out, know that I really
want to name, like I want toname names, I want to call
people out.
But there are some companiesout there that will resell ad
(29:19):
space and package it likethey're actually doing PR for
you, right?
So I talked to an author sixmonths ago, I guess, or maybe it
was late last year, and he waslike I'm working with a company
and they're doing PR and theyhad me buy an ad in the New York
(29:40):
Times for $5,000.
It was maybe more, maybe it was$7,500 at that point and
basically what he was gettingwas a tiny little picture of his
book with 20 other books in thead.
Like it wasn't, like he wasn'tgetting buying, buying a whole
page of the New York times,right, it was just think
nobody's going to see that.
Like, I'm sorry, with all duerespect, like we all love the
(30:02):
New York times, we get it Likethe book section everybody wants
to be in there.
I get it.
You do not want to be in therewith ads.
So there are some things thatare still a hard pass, with me
not being one of them.
So that's another thing to kindof be careful of is if you're
looking at companies and theentire proposal is just where
(30:23):
they're running ads.
I would, because you knowhonestly I mean because people
ask me that all the time whenI'm on the phone with them like
well, do you do?
Do you do paid ads on Kirkus?
I'm like no, why would we?
Because you can do that on yourown Right.
You know what I mean Like youwant to hire a marketing firm to
do the things to get theungettable get.
(30:44):
You want to hire a marketingteam to do things that you can't
do on your own, otherwise, whyyou're, I'm a little sure, like
super busy is.
I respect that, but I mean youknow, no, we're not paying for
reviews and publishers weekly orkirkus, not because we're have
strong feelings, we're hating onall the things.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Like, just like you could do that on your own right,
you don't want to hire a teamfor that kind of work again,
unless you just have a bunch ofmoney to throw around.
And then you, you know, I guess, throw it our way.
I suppose and with that you'reright, penny there are plenty of
companies that are like, yes,that's what we want you to pay
us for.
And it's like, oh, you know,that part's not.
(31:25):
I personally don't even findthat fun, like I tell people all
the time that write in.
You know, I was like, believeit or not, penny and I actually
have our hands in a lot of thisstuff because those are the
things we love to do.
So, yes, we're in email and yes, penny's on the phone.
But believe it or not?
(31:47):
we love the time we get to spendwith the actual creative
marketing efforts.
We love it and that's what weget excited about and that's why
we like doing these shows too,because we get it like that kind
of fuels our fire too.
But I think some people arereally surprised when they find
out that you and I just aren'tin email all day and that's how
we spend our time.
I'm like, no, actually we tryto do that as little as possible
so we can actually go back tothe fun marketing stuff that we
like to do.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I mean working with our authors and actually,
you know it's funny because wehad a really big brainstorming
week last week.
We came up with some greatideas for authors and actually
I'm going to email you, amy,after the show.
I want to do a show on brandmarketing versus book marketing
because obviously we haven'tdone it in a while.
But also, just, I mean, emailkills creativity.
(32:28):
I mean it just, you know, I'msorry, it just does, but we love
being in that creative spaceand I think that that's what
makes it hard.
I'm sorry, it just does, but welove being in that creative
space and I think that if that'swhat makes it hard, I think for
authors who are also in theredoing their own marketing,
they're like I, I don't want todo this, like I don't want to do
my own accounting, right, right, you know what I mean.
They don't like it just sucks,like this, and I had an author
(32:50):
tell me that the other day likethis just sucks the life out of
me.
I'm like I get it.
If you don't like it, youshouldn't do it.
You know?
Um, I would love to know, andyou can leave it in the comments
on um social media, causeobviously we promote these on.
So we promote these shows, um,on our Instagram feed and my
(33:11):
TikTok videos, which I juststarted doing.
I really hate doing video, butI'm doing tech.
I'm going kicking and screaminginto the TikTok video thing.
Um, finally, like I, I'm suchnot a trend follower, I I such a
camera, but anyway I'm finallyhere.
So, anyway, welcome me allTikTokers, Cause I'm finally
(33:33):
joined the party party.
But I'd love to know, if y'allyou know anybody, did you pay?
What was your experience?
Um, join in this conversationbecause I think the other thing
that I really love about thispodcast is that it does get
authors talking and sharing withother authors, and that is
that's a really cool thing.
So we also love reviews and, bythe way, if this is your first
(33:55):
show, we're generally not quiteso bitter.
So, no, we are, go back through.
If first off.
If this is your first show,welcome.
We're so glad that you're here,but go back through some of our
, because we have five years ofshows, so definitely, you know,
check out some of our back ourlist of prior shows that we've
(34:19):
done.
And we love reviews whereveryou listen to podcasts, so
please leave us a review.
We got a couple of new reviews,which were always very.
We always check that before westart recording the show.
We get very excited about that.
If it's, you do have to followthe show in order to be able to
leave a review, so follow us.
(34:42):
You'll get an episode everyFriday in your app or wherever
you listen to podcasts, andwe'll see you next time.
Bye-bye.
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