June 6, 2025 • 38 mins
Unrealistic expectations can destroy an author's career before it truly begins. We've seen it countless times—talented writers who become discouraged, bitter, and ultimately abandon their writing dreams because their first book didn't land them on bestseller lists or bring financial freedom.
In this deeply practical conversation, Penny and Amy challenge authors to rethink what success looks like for a debut book. Rather than viewing your first publication as the finish line, consider it the foundation of your author career—a launch pad for building reader relationships, growing your email list, and establishing your author brand. These elements, while less glamorous than overnight fame, create sustainable momentum that carries forward to future books.
Success in publishing rarely follows the exceptional stories we've all heard about overnight sensations. For most authors, the path involves patient, deliberate growth and learning. As Penny shares from her own 25-book journey, each publication offers valuable lessons that inform and improve the next. If you can identify five things you'll do differently with your next book, you've gained priceless knowledge that no shortcut could provide.
The podcast explores the concept of "choosing your hard"—acknowledging that publishing is challenging regardless of your approach, but productive difficulty leads to growth while discouragement leads nowhere. By focusing on reader connection, professional presentation, and consistent improvement, authors position themselves for long-term success rather than fleeting luck.
Whether you're completing your first manuscript or reflecting on why your published book hasn't met expectations, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on measuring success through sustainable metrics rather than exceptional circumstances. Reframe your goals, focus on building relationships with readers, and approach each book as another opportunity to refine your craft and platform.
Buy Penny's book The Amazon Author Formula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is Penny Sansevierie and Amy Cornell and
super excited.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So my book is the Amazon Author Formula Workbook
is up on Amazon for pre-orderSuper excited.
The launch date for that bookwill be June 20th and I'm
thrilled that it's done.
It always feels so good whenthe book I mean and we always
(00:33):
talk about the fact that thework has just started when the
book is up, you know, up onAmazon.
But it just feels really goodto have this book up on Amazon.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
It's like okay, next phase, moving on to the fun
stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, moving on to the fun stuff, yes, exactly so.
We'll have some information onhow to find the book in the show
notes.
You can always just search meon Amazon.
There's not a lot of authorsout there with the last name of
Sansevierie, so it shouldn't bethat hard to find.
So the inspiration for this showcame from an article that I
(01:04):
read that talked aboutrethinking your author career I
guess, for lack of a better termand rethinking your first book.
Right, your first book right,because in the majority of cases
(01:26):
, your first book isn't aninstant ticket, it's instant
ticket to fame, netflix deal,bestseller status, and it's
that's not necessarily a badthing.
Like, if you're listening tothis, you're just like, oh my
gosh, I'm already done withthese two.
This is going to be a totalbuzzkill.
That's not what the show isabout.
This show is about rethinkingthe level of expectation that
(01:51):
you put on your first book, andI cannot tell you and I'm going
to turn this over to Amy in asecond because she has a really
great story I cannot tell youhow many times I have talked to
authors who, literally, arediscouraged because their first
book didn't do as well as theyexpected and maybe their
expectations were misaligned.
(02:13):
Maybe they weren't, but forwhatever reason, it's not
hitting the mark for them andthey are discouraged and
deflated and there's not a lotthat I can do to correct that if
they, if they already feel likemy book is terrible and this
(02:34):
whole process has been a shitshow, and I don't really you
know what I mean, right, and ifthey're already down on the
whole concept of marketing youknow, as if marketing doesn't
work either.
It's like oof you know, yeah,and, and, and, and so, and and.
The problem with that is andwe've seen this also is that a
lot of really, really talentedauthors lose the thread with
(02:59):
this kind of thinking Yep, right, so they, they lose the thread
and they lose basically theirentire career, and then they get
bitter and then they wind up inAmy's inbox, really upset and
mad.
Sorry, I just totally opened.
I totally opened that door foryou.
Amy, do you want to walkthrough and tell us your story?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, and it's a I mean for what it's worth.
It wasn't a great emailexchange, necessarily.
I know this isn't really I love, Sorry.
No, it's okay because sometimesthe timing is just really
impeccable because you knowthings happen.
Anybody that's listened for awhile knows that pretty much 99%
of our show ideas come from ourexperiences, penny's
(03:41):
conversations you know what Imean Like they're real life
concepts that we try to puttogether somewhat intelligently
to share with y'all.
So but yeah, this week showedup, someone showed up in my
inbox and the short version isthat things just weren't working
for his book and so his emailto us was essentially I need you
(04:03):
to sell more copies of my book.
And of course, my response wasagain anybody listening could
probably actually craft a prettygood Amy response at this point
.
If you're a dedicated listener,you've probably got a pretty
good answer for him already.
But I say what I normally say,that we can't directly sell your
book, but there are a lot ofthings we can do to improve your
(04:24):
retail presence, your firstimpression, introducing you to
the right people, things likethat that really do matter
because we talk about it.
Everything you do is yourresume, and if your resume is
subpar, you're not going to seethose conversions.
That just doesn't work.
So you know, I said that to himand he responded.
His next email back was veryshort Well then, can you pitch
(04:45):
me to agents or publishers?
And I was like, listen, we'vedone a show.
Hopefully most of you havecaught it.
If you haven't.
Like we did a show on, thereare no shortcuts to success.
You know, this is a primeexample of like you don't get
around a book that isfloundering for any reason by
just then going like you knowwhat the answer is Getting an
(05:05):
agent.
That's really not how that worksand it was so hard for me not
to respond.
I mean, I just left it at thatpoint because you know clearly
this person is not in the rightmindset, which is exactly how
Penny led off this show.
For a reason, this person is inthe wrong mindset.
Nothing's working.
He's already angry andapparently, for whatever reason,
(05:29):
it's our fault, and that's whyhe showed up at our front door
to let us know that he's upsetand that we have to fix this.
But even though I'm makinglight of it, it really is a
perfect example of things aren'tworking getting discouraged,
emails start getting caustic,you start floundering for any
scrap of potentially saving yourbook, and all of that is not
(05:52):
going to lead you back on theright path to either fixing
things or being better preparedfor your next title, you know
Right exactly, and I think that,and just so y'all know, when
Amy leaves the chat, like Amyhas left the chat, then you know
that you're probably on thewrong.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
You're probably on the wrong track, but I think
that, if so, to realign yourexpectations and which I think
would have really helped ifsomebody had said that to this
author is use book one as alaunch pad.
And again, it doesn't mean thatyou don't want to pitch
(06:30):
influencers and maybe even pitchmedia and all this other stuff.
It's not that you I'm nottelling you not to do all the
things.
I am, in fact, telling you todo all the things.
But as opposed to having everypiece of you know, having a set
of unrealistic goals tethered toall the things, I want you to
(06:51):
pull back on your expectationlevel and just realize that you
have to do it all because bookone is a launch pad.
It's a great opportunity togrow your email list.
Oh my gosh.
So many conversations withauthors about you've got to grow
your email list and I've talkedto authors and this makes me
really sad for them.
I've talked to authors who cometo us after they've written
(07:16):
five or six books and they'venever even started or thought
about growing an email list, andevery book that you publish not
only adds to your brand, addsto your library, adds to your
bookshelf, but also adds to thenumber of readers that you
potentially connect with.
Connecting with readers andinfluencers, right, and focusing
(07:41):
exclusively on the readerexperience.
Yep, I cannot tell you, and Iwill freely admit, 25 years ago,
when I wrote my first book, Iwas not.
I was focused on the need,right?
So, oh my gosh, there's such aneed for this book.
So my first book Get PublishedToday aside from the fiction
(08:06):
book that I wrote, but my firstbook Get Published Today was
really focused on thisrevolutionized print-on-demand
industry and it had to be toldand this book had to be written
(08:28):
and everybody had to hear aboutit.
The problem was was that itwasn't really speaking to the
need of a reader, because I wastoo far in the weeds as I often
am with some of these nerd, likeI love to nerd out on stuff but
it also wasn't.
I was.
It wasn't connecting with thereader, right?
So writing a book that connectswith the reader.
So your first book can reallytell you which my did whether or
not you've connected with yourreader, right, because you'll
(08:51):
get feedback or you won't.
You know it'll just be cricketsout there and you won't get any
feedback, and then you'll know.
No feedback is also an answer,right.
Connecting with readers,connecting with influencers Um,
connecting with readers,connecting with influencers, and
, and not only connecting withthem, but building relationships
, relationships with them, andthen also, you know, letting
(09:15):
their feedback inform yourcareer theory.
Every book that we write shouldbe better than the previous
book that we wrote, right,because we're getting better
every time.
I mean your thoughts on this,amy.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, no, I think just setting the tone and
instead of, like you said,instead of putting the pressure
on this book to tell you thatit's worth it to keep going like
you said, penny putting thefocus on doing all the things
correctly and then we talk aboutthis a lot but also in the
(10:00):
right order.
You know, do things correctlyand do them in the right order
and not only are you more likelyto see more successes,
incremental successes, with yourfirst book.
If you're focused on doing allthe right things for your
product, doing all the rightthings for your retail page,
doing the right things for yourbrand, thinking about how you're
(10:20):
going to connect with yourreaders, what this means for
your reader, the readerexperience.
Going through things in thatorder is definitely setting you
up for success.
That is when things startclicking.
But we see it all the time Ifyou're constantly getting
distracted by these larger, moresexy goals, you're kind of just
(10:43):
going through the motions withthe other stuff and you're
missing things, you're skippingthings.
You're saying I'm not going toworry about my author central
stuff right now because I'dreally rather be pitching media.
I need to find somebody topitch me to media.
I'll deal with that later.
That is the wrong order to dothings.
It's amazing how a few tweaksto your timeline and what you're
(11:04):
doing and your first bookshould also be a learning
experience Make it part of theeducational learning experience
Because, again, like Penny said,every book you release should
be getting better.
But there's no reason not toset the bar super high the first
time, right Like it doesn'tmean just throw the first one
out there and be like well,there's only room to grow from
here.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Right, right, exactly .
And you know I meant to leadwith this, but Amy shared this
great video this morning and itwas basically.
I'm going to put it up on myFacebook page, probably tomorrow
or something, if you follow methere, but it was a lecture, it
was a graduation speech, rather,and the crux of the speech was
(11:48):
choose your heart, Right.
It's all hard Publishing.
A great book is hard Publishing.
A bad book is hard, right.
Choose your heart with authorswho'd show up, and it really
bothers me when they'rediscouraged, because I really I
(12:11):
mean as an author myself I don'twant, I don't like hearing
other authors who are justdiscouraged.
You read the publishingindustry.
You think marketing sucks, youthink we suck Like.
You know what I mean Likethat's a hard conversation to
have, but it's also, you know,and I'm going to use this to
them it's like well, choose yourhard.
So, having your expectationsridiculously high, not
(12:32):
understanding the marketplace,not understanding that you have
to pay your dues before you canget up to that next level, is
also hard, but so is, you know,being so discouraged that you
shoot off angry emails to PRcompanies looking for it and you
(12:53):
walk around like this angryball of everybody hates me in my
book, which is probably nottrue unless you're a jerk, and
then maybe it is true.
But it you know, choose yourheart, and I thought that was
just so brilliant and it's sofitting, I know, for so many
things in life.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I know, I love that that was.
I was like, oh my gosh, penny,we can have so many of these.
You know, publishing a book ormarketing is hard, but having a
book out there that doesn't goanywhere, that's also hard.
So which version sounds better?
Yeah, you know, yeah, exactlyAt the end of the day, Like it's
hard, like we talked about thisperson that emailed me.
He's in a hard spot right now.
(13:33):
He's not doing well, yeah, he'snot doing well yeah.
But it's also yeah, you couldsay it's hard to put in the
effort and do things correctlyand do them in the right order,
but at least that's a productiveversion of hard you know.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Exactly, Exactly, and I think that you know when you
think about your first book,your first book can have success
, right For sure.
But we see it all the time.
Oh, 10,000 percent, we see itall the time.
Absolutely, there's always.
And some books just surprisethe heck out of me and and and,
by the way, Amy, just we justsurpassed Amy's 14 year
(14:10):
anniversary, Amazing.
So in the 14 years that you'vebeen doing this, I mean you and
I both know books surprise usall the time time Right, and we
have wins that we celebrate allthe time.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But I think to the like everything that we're
saying right now yes, we havebig wins, we get to see, we get
to celebrate really big wins,which is always amazing.
But when people say like, well,how successful are your
campaigns?
Sorry, now I'm doing a voicethat was rude, but truly we get
these questions all the time andI let people know it's like we
see successful books all thetime and I let people know it's
like we see successful books allthe time.
But the way we frame it iswhat's successful for this
(14:50):
author at this point in theircareer, for the platform they've
developed up to this point andfor the fact that this is either
their first, maybe second,whatever.
You know what I mean.
There's so many differentfactors, so it's like you know
when your expectations areappropriate for where you're at
in your career.
There are tons of wins to behad.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, I absolutely agree with that and I think that
when, um, when an author askswhat, what's a success?
Look like for me, and let's sayit's their first book, they
don't, you know, they're stillbuilding their website.
Whatever, um, their first,their success, their milestones,
(15:30):
might be growing theirnewsletter list, right, maybe
getting speaking gigs andpodcast interviews and
influencers talking about thebook and really establishing
themselves as a.
(15:51):
Maybe it's a thought leader ormaybe it's a, you know, maybe
it's just like, oh, a top tier,you know, crime fiction writer
or something like that.
Reimagine what your success,you know what your mile markers
(16:12):
are going to be for success.
Because if your success is, Iwant to be on, I don't know Dr
Phil, and somebody asked meabout that just recently like,
well, first off, dr Phil doesn'thave a show anymore, but okay,
but everything else is going tobe a big disappointment to you.
So I think it's not just aboutall right.
(16:35):
So your book is, you know,don't build your house on sand.
Make sure that your book isyour platform and it helps, and
all that stuff is great.
But the other problem withmisaligned expectations for
first book with no background,no, this or that is that it just
creates.
Everything else is just gone toshit.
It creates a litany ofdisappointment, right.
(16:57):
So looking at what successreally looks like for a book, I
mean, look if your first book,if you can grow your newsletter
with your first book and you canget influencers talking about
your book, and maybe you do somelocal media, maybe you're doing
book events right or speakinggigs if that's your thing, and
podcast interviews that'samazing.
(17:19):
Like I think that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It is amazing.
Just don't put retiring on thatshort list for your first book,
right, Right?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
right.
Like I'm 50 years old, I wrotea book.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I'd like to not work anymore.
What can you do?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
I'd like to quit my job.
I'd like to quit my job.
I'm like, oh God, I talked toan author one time and I don't
actually don't think we eversent this person a proposal just
because I was.
So I was kind of bummed forthem, like after the and this,
this person said to me thiswasn't recently, I think this is
maybe last year or something.
Um, I'm writing this book so Ican quit my job.
(17:57):
No, I know, and I'm literallylike that is a no-win.
First off, you poor thing.
Secondly, that's a no-winsituation for anybody, and we've
actually had authors who havecome to us and said I just quit
my job because I want to focuson writing.
And I want to say, well, I hopeyou have like a few years of
(18:19):
savings, because otherwise youknow what I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Old, wealthy relatives.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So I think that it's really about making sure that
you are focused not just onhaving better expectations for
your first book, but also usingit and thinking about where
(18:47):
you're going to be long term.
Right, yeah, because this isgoing to be your.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
this is going to be your career Right, and I love
the next.
Oh, go ahead, penny.
Sorry, no, no, no, go ahead, goahead.
I was going to say I love thenext bullet that we put on there
.
Mission over hype.
Like I want that on a t-shirt,I think.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You know, I was like that's so perfect, so aligning
your message and your brandbuilding with a bigger purpose.
Like you just said, penny, thisis designed to be.
I mean, if you're in this,hopefully you want to be in this
for the long term.
You know, like writing andpublishing and marketing a book
(19:28):
is not a six month hobby, right?
I mean, if that's the kind oftime you have, I'm jealous.
Send me notes.
I want to hear your ways,because that's pretty incredible
.
But the mission over hype and itkind of goes back to focusing
on the right things, yourmission.
And again back to what doessuccess really look like for a
(19:50):
first book?
Honestly, to me, penny, if anauthor came to us and ended up
in my inbox and sent me a linkto their book like this is my
first one, you know I'm I don'tknow what to do next.
It's it doesn't happen often,but it does happen sometimes
where I go to their book pageand I'm like, oh my gosh,
they're doing so many things,right, you know?
(20:16):
Like the cover's good, thedescription's compelling,
they're using Author Central,they've got a lot of great
content on their page.
They've got A-plus content.
They've got a decent number ofreviews.
They're putting in the work andtypically there's always
something else that we can helpthem with in terms of, like,
getting more creative andbroadening you know their
exposure and their reach andthings like that.
But I love being able to goback to an author and they
(20:36):
probably don't like it as much,but I love being able to go back
to an author and say you'reactually doing really well.
You know what I mean.
Like that may not, but it'slike reminding them like you're
doing a good job, you're doingall the right things.
This is the kind of base thatPenny and I talk about all the
time, that you need to focus oncreating and building off of,
(20:59):
versus always thinking aboutthat next thing.
That's slightly out of reach.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Right, exactly, and I think to that end, though, amy,
I would say that we've hadauthors where they're just like,
oh my gosh, they're so polishedand they're so ready to go, and
they've done all the rightthings, and yet they still labor
under misaligned expectations.
Right, I'm not selling, I'm notselling enough, and and part of
(21:27):
that is also we've said thisbefore on the show so many times
maybe they sit in writersgroups or they're in a Facebook
group and some guy just postedwell, I sold 10,000 books, like
last month, or whatever.
And then you read that and youthink what kind of a loser am I?
I just sold 100, you know whatI mean.
Like or whatever the number isthat a lot of times, and maybe
(21:55):
you know, maybe you are selling,you know a significant number
of books, but you don'tunderstand why you're not
selling more.
A lot of times, like as Amysaid, there's maybe one or two
things that you're just missingthat can really help, but it is
a long term.
It's you know, being asuccessful author is a long-term
commitment.
It feels like.
It feels like it shouldn't beright.
It feels like you know thewhole story about.
(22:17):
You know the, the famous singerwho slept in her van, or, um,
right, yes, right.
Or the Harry Potter author I'mso sorry Now totally spacing on
her who, like, wrote her book,who was on welfare and she wrote
Harry Potter when she wassitting in a coffee shop, like,
I get it.
I understand that those storiesare alluring and everybody
(22:41):
thinks that they are theexception to the rule.
Well, not everybody, but a lotof times authors think they are
the exception to the rule.
And what's interesting is Amy,just for the podcast, she went
into chat and we were, we were,we were going through this and
it was, it was, it was basicallya list of media qualifications
and we'll do a show on thislater.
Not that chat has all theanswers, but I'm telling you
(23:03):
right now, chat is my boyfriend,like, how weird is I'm just so
I and we're're gonna actually doa show about some cool things
that chat can do for you as anauthor.
But, came, it came up with alist of, like, core media
standards, um, for qualifyingjust to be in, you know, just to
(23:25):
get on national television andthings like that, and none of
those included just having abook, like so, so, but at the
same time, back to my point isthat everyone, a lot of times
authors and again, not everyone,I shouldn't overgeneralize like
(23:45):
that but a lot of times authorsreally believe that they are
the exception to the rule.
It's like, well, I listen toPenny and Amy, I get it, but I
don't really get it.
I'm the exception.
This is going to happen for mebecause everybody, everybody
loves my book and this is goingto be great.
And sometimes that happens, butthe majority of, in the
majority of cases that you'rejust going to set yourself up
(24:05):
for disappointment.
So, using your book to like,like I just said, build your
email list, focus on readerconnection, build those
relationships with your readers,because your readers are what
is going to carry you over thefinish line.
So, when an author comes to meand says what's the ROI from
(24:28):
this campaign, sometimes I'llsay to them like, well, okay, I
don't know how you measure theROI in building readership,
right, because that is reallywhat that's really a big your
readers.
95% of books are sold word ofmouth and you know, amy and I
have this string going in ourpersonal emails about book
(24:52):
recommendations, like I'mrecommending books to her all
the time for authors that she's,in many cases, maybe even never
even heard of Nope.
You want to build readerconnections that you don't even
know about, right, right, that'sthe whole.
You know, that is where bookone can really help to carry you
(25:15):
into book two and three andfour.
Amy, do you want to talk aboutthe author brand, which, again,
like we get it, it sounds like abig snooze, fast, right, I've
got my author brand.
We've done whole shows on this.
So if you just found this showand you're like, oh, penny and
Amy are lecturing me, hopefullythat's not, that's not your
(25:35):
takeaway, but we've doneindividual shows on reader
connections, build your emaillist and branding, which Amy's
going to talk about.
So definitely go back andlisten to those.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, the branding part is huge.
The reader connection, thereader experience, those are
very much linked, you know,because and I don't know if
we've said this in a while, weused to say it all the time, so
clearly you know, but youremember to also don't just be
the author trying to sellsomething.
Remember to also operate as areader, as a consumer as well,
(26:08):
because and think about what yougo through when you're looking
for a book, when you'reintroduced to a new author, what
are the things you look for?
You know, what are the thingsyou notice on retail pages,
things like that Make sure thereader experience, because that
is a huge part of your brand andit's a huge part of what brings
people back and or keeps theminterested enough the first time
(26:31):
to actually recognize that bookcover, because they may not buy
the first time they'reintroduced to you, but that
recognition, that namerecognition, that cover
recognition, that experience,the way they felt the first time
they got on your retail pageand what you had available to
them or what you didn't, that'sjust as big, you know.
So think about that is all partof your brand.
(26:54):
Their experience with not onlythe first, you know, your
initial introduction, your firstimpression, but then are you
giving them a reason to comeback, and that's a really huge
part of this too, and it's, it's, you know.
This is another thing we say allthe time the more seriously you
take yourself, the moreseriously potential readers will
(27:14):
take you as well, you knowRight.
So, yeah, and again, like Pennysaid, we've done lots of shows
on this, but it's, you know,nose to tail like that, having a
clean website, you know, makingan engaging book description,
making sure your cover isexceptional.
You know it.
Every single person listeningto us can make an exceptional
(27:38):
cover.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, that's something that'savailable to everybody, and I
don't think we talk about thatenough Petty.
This is not something that's outof reach for certain authors,
but it's about knowing yourmarket, working with the right
designers, things like that, andit doesn't even mean spending,
taking out a loan or anythingjust to get a book cover by any
means, but it's about educatingyourself and making the right
(28:05):
decisions.
But this is all part ofeverything's your brand, and so
what can you think about whatyou can do and most of the
things we've been talking aboutthis whole time, other than you
know the book cover.
It's free.
You know these are all like thecrossing your T's and dotting
your I's in terms of the firstimpression that people put out
there.
So much of what we talk aboutis free.
It just takes time.
It takes some self-education.
It could be a little less freeif you'd like our opinion,
(28:25):
because we love helping forthings with things like that.
But it's the investment in, likePenny said, it's the investment
in your long-term potential toconvert shoppers to buyers, and
it's so much easier to do thatcorrectly at the beginning than
it is to have to go back and fixthings Now.
(28:46):
If you're past that beginningpoint, you can still fix things,
but we're just letting the.
You know, since a lot of whatwe've been talking about about
your first book, setting thestage, your expectations for
your first book, havingrealistic goals, things like
that those are the things youshould be focused on with your
first book developing your brand, giving potential readers and
(29:06):
buyers something to connect with, because that's what lasts.
That's what really lasts.
It's not, you know, as nice asit could sound, nice and easy,
but you really don't want to bethe author that gets lucky for a
little bit, because that fades.
Having a couple good sale monthsbecause something just went
(29:28):
right based on your release.
That is not sustainable.
That is not going to besomething that develops a career
.
So don't hope you get lucky.
Don't hope that you know you'rean exception.
Like Penny said, just do theright things and you'll be
totally surprised at how themomentum will continue to build
for you if you have a goodfoundation and a strong brand.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, exactly, and you know, the good foundation
takes time.
It's taken time, you know, andI I wrote my books in
conjunction with starting mybusiness.
I mean, the, the, the platformstuff takes time, but I promise
you it's worth.
It's worth the price ofadmission.
(30:12):
It absolutely is.
Um, and I think the final pointof what is important, and
regardless of where you're at inyour writing career
understanding the basics of thepublishing industry and also
what book discovery looks likefor your readers.
(30:35):
And I know that when you thinkbook discovery, well, I could
just put it up on Amazon and Iget it, but where do your
readers find your books?
Right?
That's something that having abook out there will help you to
figure out, and you know.
The other thing, though, too,is I'll tell you if you come
(30:55):
away from publishing your firstbook and promoting your first
book and think here are fivethings that I could have that I
wish I would have known that Icould have done differently.
I think that's awesome, becausewhat that means is is you have
learned from your mistakes, oryou have learned in the process
maybe not, maybe not even frommistakes.
And now the next book that youdo.
(31:16):
Every single time you wereleveling up.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yep, I love that perspective.
That's a very good point.
Yeah, if you're completelyclueless as to why your book
hasn't taken off, that'sactually a much tougher position
to be in.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
It's a tough, it's a tougher position to be in.
I mean, it's one that Amy and Ireally love to kind of figure
out, because we, we love to puton our little publishing
detective hats and figure outwhat went wrong, and a lot of
times that's fun too, but that'snot very fun for you, right.
It doesn't really empower theauthor to not know what's wrong.
And I think you know, and evenlike with so I'm doing the
(31:54):
Amazon author formula workbook,which is a partner book to the
Amazon author formula.
And even, you know, even like 24books out now I guess this is
my 25th.
I guess I publish a book a yearsince I've been in business.
That's like super weird.
But um, I I've learned a lot,even from going from that book
(32:15):
to this book, to this workbook,and part of it is just by nature
of creating something that's sogranular, with worksheets and
all this other stuff.
Every book.
If you can come away with sometakeaways like, oh my gosh, I
wish I would have done, I wish Iwould have done, then that is a
huge win.
That is an awesome, huge win.
(32:36):
So don't beat yourself up ifyou're one of those authors
because I do talk to authors whosay that to me and they are
beating themselves up and youshouldn't.
Because that learningexperience, man, you cannot.
You cannot buy that learningexperience.
That's phenomenal.
I think.
Did we cover everything?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Did we?
Yeah, I think we did.
I think just.
I love that we ended this witheducation, though, because, yes,
we can sit here and remind youof all the things that you
should be doing and all thethings that you should avoid and
in the mistakes and stuff likethat, and hope you're finding,
you know, valuable informationhere and you're taking notes and
whatnot or re-listening toepisodes, but you know, but it
(33:19):
doesn't completely replace theself-education part, empowering
yourself to understand what theand I think it also helps keep
expectations in check, right,penny?
I mean, if you're readingindustry newsletters and
actively looking for resourceson what's going on in publishing
, hopefully you're using some ofthat to also reframe, kind of
(33:41):
what your plans are.
You know and understanding,like, okay, my next book is
coming out soon, x number ofmonths out.
What can I be doing this timearound to be better?
I love that you mentioned that,penny.
Like I challenge everybody tomake your list of five things
that you can do better for yournext book.
Or, if you don't have a newbook coming out super soon, what
(34:04):
are five things you could dodifferently in the next three to
four months or over the summer?
You know, like, what are somepositive changes you can make
that reframe what you're focusedon and can help contribute to
these bigger goals.
Like let's reframe what successis, so let's get those five
things written down.
Work to get those done in 100%.
(34:27):
Call that a major win.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And you know what I'm making.
I'm actually writing down noteswhile we're doing this podcast.
I'm actually going to puttogether some social media and
maybe even a video or somethingon reframing success and looking
at and like asking authors whatare their five things, and I
also think that, in part as partof education, I think it's also
(34:51):
really good to follow otherauthors in your market, because
you will learn so much just fromlike oh, that's a great idea,
and I would say that I want toencourage you not that any of
our listeners would do this, but, you know, don't copy, but let
it spark ideas.
(35:12):
It might spark ideas.
Or, you know, in some authors,like there was an author,
there's an author that I followand I can't think of their name
right now but they really went,like they really opened up the
kimono and they were like,here's what I did leading up to
and you know, leading up to myfirst book being published and
here's what the sales were andit's interesting.
(35:33):
I wish that now that I hadsaved that so we could share it
as part of this podcast.
This was this author's firstbook and they had this crazy
launch schedule, like literally,like I'm reading this launch
schedule.
I'm like, oh my God, I'm sotired right now, and they sold
something like a thousand booksin the first month, and you may
(35:54):
be listening to this thinkingI'd kill for a thousand book
sales, but when you looked atthis list of everything that
this author had done, I wouldhave expected that to be a
thousand in the first day.
I mean, it was just so.
The other piece of it, though,too, and I think the final piece
(36:15):
I keep saying that we're at theend of the show and then I keep
thinking of stuff, but I thinkthe final piece is that it's
great to have an aggressivelaunch plan.
I love that, because you wantto give your book it's the long
runway of success, right?
You want to make sure thatyou're getting out you know,
promoting your book six or eightmonths after it's been out,
because you wanted to just throwthe book up on Amazon and see
what it was doing like, do it onits own.
(36:41):
Basically, it probably didnothing, but so having a launch
plan is a really good idea.
But also be mindful that, yes,you can create lots of videos.
Yes, you can be sending outnewsletters.
Yes, you can do all thosethings, and if you have the time
to do that, that's great.
(37:01):
But initially you may bespeaking to an empty room or
maybe there's just like your momand a few other people that are
listening to you.
So it's great to have thatcontent and I don't want to
discourage you from doing that.
But don't think that justbecause you have a super
aggressive launch plan that allof a sudden everything is going
to go viral and you're going tobe an overnight success and then
you're going to write to Amyand go neener, neener, neener.
(37:23):
Look at how successful like youguys are wrong on your podcast.
Look at how.
Look at now I'm doing the voiceright, it's contagious.
Sorry, it's so contagious, butI mean.
You know it's great to do allthis stuff.
I love authors that do all thethings.
Just make sure that yourexpectations aren't for instant
(37:44):
fame, because nobody is bornfamous and with that we're going
to have a lot of during therollout of the pre-order or the
Amazon author formula workbook.
We're going to have a lot ofreally fun stuff.
So be on the lookout for that.
If you follow us on social media, definitely be on the lookout
for that.
Thank you so much for listening.
(38:06):
If this is your first listenand we didn't totally discourage
you with our reality checkpodcast.
Be sure to follow us.
We drop a show every Friday.
We would love to have you as anongoing listener.
To those of you who havefollowed us and listened, we get
emails all the time fromauthors like I'm binging all the
(38:26):
shows.
I love all the shows, thank you, thank you, thank you so much.
It means the world to us.
We also love reviews.
Wherever you listen to podcasts, yes, please, yeah, or email us
the us um, email us the review,if it's sometimes.
I know Apple doesn't alwaysmake it easy to leave reviews.
So, thank you so much forlistening.
We'll see you next time,bye-bye.
Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips
and Author Success Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is Penny Sansevierie and Amy Cornell and
super excited.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So my book is the Amazon Author Formula Workbook
is up on Amazon for pre-orderSuper excited.
The launch date for that bookwill be June 20th and I'm
thrilled that it's done.
It always feels so good whenthe book I mean and we always
(00:33):
talk about the fact that thework has just started when the
book is up, you know, up onAmazon.
But it just feels really goodto have this book up on Amazon.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
It's like okay, next phase, moving on to the fun
stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, moving on to the fun stuff, yes, exactly so.
We'll have some information onhow to find the book in the show
notes.
You can always just search meon Amazon.
There's not a lot of authorsout there with the last name of
Sansevierie, so it shouldn't bethat hard to find.
So the inspiration for this showcame from an article that I
(01:04):
read that talked aboutrethinking your author career I
guess, for lack of a better termand rethinking your first book.
Right, your first book right,because in the majority of cases
(01:26):
, your first book isn't aninstant ticket, it's instant
ticket to fame, netflix deal,bestseller status, and it's
that's not necessarily a badthing.
Like, if you're listening tothis, you're just like, oh my
gosh, I'm already done withthese two.
This is going to be a totalbuzzkill.
That's not what the show isabout.
This show is about rethinkingthe level of expectation that
(01:51):
you put on your first book, andI cannot tell you and I'm going
to turn this over to Amy in asecond because she has a really
great story I cannot tell youhow many times I have talked to
authors who, literally, arediscouraged because their first
book didn't do as well as theyexpected and maybe their
expectations were misaligned.
(02:13):
Maybe they weren't, but forwhatever reason, it's not
hitting the mark for them andthey are discouraged and
deflated and there's not a lotthat I can do to correct that if
they, if they already feel likemy book is terrible and this
(02:34):
whole process has been a shitshow, and I don't really you
know what I mean, right, and ifthey're already down on the
whole concept of marketing youknow, as if marketing doesn't
work either.
It's like oof you know, yeah,and, and, and, and so, and and.
The problem with that is andwe've seen this also is that a
lot of really, really talentedauthors lose the thread with
(02:59):
this kind of thinking Yep, right, so they, they lose the thread
and they lose basically theirentire career, and then they get
bitter and then they wind up inAmy's inbox, really upset and
mad.
Sorry, I just totally opened.
I totally opened that door foryou.
Amy, do you want to walkthrough and tell us your story?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, and it's a I mean for what it's worth.
It wasn't a great emailexchange, necessarily.
I know this isn't really I love, Sorry.
No, it's okay because sometimesthe timing is just really
impeccable because you knowthings happen.
Anybody that's listened for awhile knows that pretty much 99%
of our show ideas come from ourexperiences, penny's
(03:41):
conversations you know what Imean Like they're real life
concepts that we try to puttogether somewhat intelligently
to share with y'all.
So but yeah, this week showedup, someone showed up in my
inbox and the short version isthat things just weren't working
for his book and so his emailto us was essentially I need you
(04:03):
to sell more copies of my book.
And of course, my response wasagain anybody listening could
probably actually craft a prettygood Amy response at this point
.
If you're a dedicated listener,you've probably got a pretty
good answer for him already.
But I say what I normally say,that we can't directly sell your
book, but there are a lot ofthings we can do to improve your
(04:24):
retail presence, your firstimpression, introducing you to
the right people, things likethat that really do matter
because we talk about it.
Everything you do is yourresume, and if your resume is
subpar, you're not going to seethose conversions.
That just doesn't work.
So you know, I said that to himand he responded.
His next email back was veryshort Well then, can you pitch
(04:45):
me to agents or publishers?
And I was like, listen, we'vedone a show.
Hopefully most of you havecaught it.
If you haven't.
Like we did a show on, thereare no shortcuts to success.
You know, this is a primeexample of like you don't get
around a book that isfloundering for any reason by
just then going like you knowwhat the answer is Getting an
(05:05):
agent.
That's really not how that worksand it was so hard for me not
to respond.
I mean, I just left it at thatpoint because you know clearly
this person is not in the rightmindset, which is exactly how
Penny led off this show.
For a reason, this person is inthe wrong mindset.
Nothing's working.
He's already angry andapparently, for whatever reason,
(05:29):
it's our fault, and that's whyhe showed up at our front door
to let us know that he's upsetand that we have to fix this.
But even though I'm makinglight of it, it really is a
perfect example of things aren'tworking getting discouraged,
emails start getting caustic,you start floundering for any
scrap of potentially saving yourbook, and all of that is not
(05:52):
going to lead you back on theright path to either fixing
things or being better preparedfor your next title, you know
Right exactly, and I think that,and just so y'all know, when
Amy leaves the chat, like Amyhas left the chat, then you know
that you're probably on thewrong.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
You're probably on the wrong track, but I think
that, if so, to realign yourexpectations and which I think
would have really helped ifsomebody had said that to this
author is use book one as alaunch pad.
And again, it doesn't mean thatyou don't want to pitch
(06:30):
influencers and maybe even pitchmedia and all this other stuff.
It's not that you I'm nottelling you not to do all the
things.
I am, in fact, telling you todo all the things.
But as opposed to having everypiece of you know, having a set
of unrealistic goals tethered toall the things, I want you to
(06:51):
pull back on your expectationlevel and just realize that you
have to do it all because bookone is a launch pad.
It's a great opportunity togrow your email list.
Oh my gosh.
So many conversations withauthors about you've got to grow
your email list and I've talkedto authors and this makes me
really sad for them.
I've talked to authors who cometo us after they've written
(07:16):
five or six books and they'venever even started or thought
about growing an email list, andevery book that you publish not
only adds to your brand, addsto your library, adds to your
bookshelf, but also adds to thenumber of readers that you
potentially connect with.
Connecting with readers andinfluencers, right, and focusing
(07:41):
exclusively on the readerexperience.
Yep, I cannot tell you, and Iwill freely admit, 25 years ago,
when I wrote my first book, Iwas not.
I was focused on the need,right?
So, oh my gosh, there's such aneed for this book.
So my first book Get PublishedToday aside from the fiction
(08:06):
book that I wrote, but my firstbook Get Published Today was
really focused on thisrevolutionized print-on-demand
industry and it had to be toldand this book had to be written
(08:28):
and everybody had to hear aboutit.
The problem was was that itwasn't really speaking to the
need of a reader, because I wastoo far in the weeds as I often
am with some of these nerd, likeI love to nerd out on stuff but
it also wasn't.
I was.
It wasn't connecting with thereader, right?
So writing a book that connectswith the reader.
So your first book can reallytell you which my did whether or
not you've connected with yourreader, right, because you'll
(08:51):
get feedback or you won't.
You know it'll just be cricketsout there and you won't get any
feedback, and then you'll know.
No feedback is also an answer,right.
Connecting with readers,connecting with influencers Um,
connecting with readers,connecting with influencers, and
, and not only connecting withthem, but building relationships
, relationships with them, andthen also, you know, letting
(09:15):
their feedback inform yourcareer theory.
Every book that we write shouldbe better than the previous
book that we wrote, right,because we're getting better
every time.
I mean your thoughts on this,amy.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, no, I think just setting the tone and
instead of, like you said,instead of putting the pressure
on this book to tell you thatit's worth it to keep going like
you said, penny putting thefocus on doing all the things
correctly and then we talk aboutthis a lot but also in the
(10:00):
right order.
You know, do things correctlyand do them in the right order
and not only are you more likelyto see more successes,
incremental successes, with yourfirst book.
If you're focused on doing allthe right things for your
product, doing all the rightthings for your retail page,
doing the right things for yourbrand, thinking about how you're
(10:20):
going to connect with yourreaders, what this means for
your reader, the readerexperience.
Going through things in thatorder is definitely setting you
up for success.
That is when things startclicking.
But we see it all the time Ifyou're constantly getting
distracted by these larger, moresexy goals, you're kind of just
(10:43):
going through the motions withthe other stuff and you're
missing things, you're skippingthings.
You're saying I'm not going toworry about my author central
stuff right now because I'dreally rather be pitching media.
I need to find somebody topitch me to media.
I'll deal with that later.
That is the wrong order to dothings.
It's amazing how a few tweaksto your timeline and what you're
(11:04):
doing and your first bookshould also be a learning
experience Make it part of theeducational learning experience
Because, again, like Penny said,every book you release should
be getting better.
But there's no reason not toset the bar super high the first
time, right Like it doesn'tmean just throw the first one
out there and be like well,there's only room to grow from
here.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Right, right, exactly .
And you know I meant to leadwith this, but Amy shared this
great video this morning and itwas basically.
I'm going to put it up on myFacebook page, probably tomorrow
or something, if you follow methere, but it was a lecture, it
was a graduation speech, rather,and the crux of the speech was
(11:48):
choose your heart, Right.
It's all hard Publishing.
A great book is hard Publishing.
A bad book is hard, right.
Choose your heart with authorswho'd show up, and it really
bothers me when they'rediscouraged, because I really I
(12:11):
mean as an author myself I don'twant, I don't like hearing
other authors who are justdiscouraged.
You read the publishingindustry.
You think marketing sucks, youthink we suck Like.
You know what I mean Likethat's a hard conversation to
have, but it's also, you know,and I'm going to use this to
them it's like well, choose yourhard.
So, having your expectationsridiculously high, not
(12:32):
understanding the marketplace,not understanding that you have
to pay your dues before you canget up to that next level, is
also hard, but so is, you know,being so discouraged that you
shoot off angry emails to PRcompanies looking for it and you
(12:53):
walk around like this angryball of everybody hates me in my
book, which is probably nottrue unless you're a jerk, and
then maybe it is true.
But it you know, choose yourheart, and I thought that was
just so brilliant and it's sofitting, I know, for so many
things in life.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I know, I love that that was.
I was like, oh my gosh, penny,we can have so many of these.
You know, publishing a book ormarketing is hard, but having a
book out there that doesn't goanywhere, that's also hard.
So which version sounds better?
Yeah, you know, yeah, exactlyAt the end of the day, Like it's
hard, like we talked about thisperson that emailed me.
He's in a hard spot right now.
(13:33):
He's not doing well, yeah, he'snot doing well yeah.
But it's also yeah, you couldsay it's hard to put in the
effort and do things correctlyand do them in the right order,
but at least that's a productiveversion of hard you know.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Exactly, Exactly, and I think that you know when you
think about your first book,your first book can have success
, right For sure.
But we see it all the time.
Oh, 10,000 percent, we see itall the time.
Absolutely, there's always.
And some books just surprisethe heck out of me and and and,
by the way, Amy, just we justsurpassed Amy's 14 year
(14:10):
anniversary, Amazing.
So in the 14 years that you'vebeen doing this, I mean you and
I both know books surprise usall the time time Right, and we
have wins that we celebrate allthe time.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But I think to the like everything that we're
saying right now yes, we havebig wins, we get to see, we get
to celebrate really big wins,which is always amazing.
But when people say like, well,how successful are your
campaigns?
Sorry, now I'm doing a voicethat was rude, but truly we get
these questions all the time andI let people know it's like we
see successful books all thetime and I let people know it's
like we see successful books allthe time.
But the way we frame it iswhat's successful for this
(14:50):
author at this point in theircareer, for the platform they've
developed up to this point andfor the fact that this is either
their first, maybe second,whatever.
You know what I mean.
There's so many differentfactors, so it's like you know
when your expectations areappropriate for where you're at
in your career.
There are tons of wins to behad.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, I absolutely agree with that and I think that
when, um, when an author askswhat, what's a success?
Look like for me, and let's sayit's their first book, they
don't, you know, they're stillbuilding their website.
Whatever, um, their first,their success, their milestones,
(15:30):
might be growing theirnewsletter list, right, maybe
getting speaking gigs andpodcast interviews and
influencers talking about thebook and really establishing
themselves as a.
(15:51):
Maybe it's a thought leader ormaybe it's a, you know, maybe
it's just like, oh, a top tier,you know, crime fiction writer
or something like that.
Reimagine what your success,you know what your mile markers
(16:12):
are going to be for success.
Because if your success is, Iwant to be on, I don't know Dr
Phil, and somebody asked meabout that just recently like,
well, first off, dr Phil doesn'thave a show anymore, but okay,
but everything else is going tobe a big disappointment to you.
So I think it's not just aboutall right.
(16:35):
So your book is, you know,don't build your house on sand.
Make sure that your book isyour platform and it helps, and
all that stuff is great.
But the other problem withmisaligned expectations for
first book with no background,no, this or that is that it just
creates.
Everything else is just gone toshit.
It creates a litany ofdisappointment, right.
(16:57):
So looking at what successreally looks like for a book, I
mean, look if your first book,if you can grow your newsletter
with your first book and you canget influencers talking about
your book, and maybe you do somelocal media, maybe you're doing
book events right or speakinggigs if that's your thing, and
podcast interviews that'samazing.
(17:19):
Like I think that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It is amazing.
Just don't put retiring on thatshort list for your first book,
right, Right?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
right.
Like I'm 50 years old, I wrotea book.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I'd like to not work anymore.
What can you do?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
I'd like to quit my job.
I'd like to quit my job.
I'm like, oh God, I talked toan author one time and I don't
actually don't think we eversent this person a proposal just
because I was.
So I was kind of bummed forthem, like after the and this,
this person said to me thiswasn't recently, I think this is
maybe last year or something.
Um, I'm writing this book so Ican quit my job.
(17:57):
No, I know, and I'm literallylike that is a no-win.
First off, you poor thing.
Secondly, that's a no-winsituation for anybody, and we've
actually had authors who havecome to us and said I just quit
my job because I want to focuson writing.
And I want to say, well, I hopeyou have like a few years of
(18:19):
savings, because otherwise youknow what I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Old, wealthy relatives.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So I think that it's really about making sure that
you are focused not just onhaving better expectations for
your first book, but also usingit and thinking about where
(18:47):
you're going to be long term.
Right, yeah, because this isgoing to be your.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
this is going to be your career Right, and I love
the next.
Oh, go ahead, penny.
Sorry, no, no, no, go ahead, goahead.
I was going to say I love thenext bullet that we put on there
.
Mission over hype.
Like I want that on a t-shirt,I think.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You know, I was like that's so perfect, so aligning
your message and your brandbuilding with a bigger purpose.
Like you just said, penny, thisis designed to be.
I mean, if you're in this,hopefully you want to be in this
for the long term.
You know, like writing andpublishing and marketing a book
(19:28):
is not a six month hobby, right?
I mean, if that's the kind oftime you have, I'm jealous.
Send me notes.
I want to hear your ways,because that's pretty incredible
.
But the mission over hype and itkind of goes back to focusing
on the right things, yourmission.
And again back to what doessuccess really look like for a
(19:50):
first book?
Honestly, to me, penny, if anauthor came to us and ended up
in my inbox and sent me a linkto their book like this is my
first one, you know I'm I don'tknow what to do next.
It's it doesn't happen often,but it does happen sometimes
where I go to their book pageand I'm like, oh my gosh,
they're doing so many things,right, you know?
(20:16):
Like the cover's good, thedescription's compelling,
they're using Author Central,they've got a lot of great
content on their page.
They've got A-plus content.
They've got a decent number ofreviews.
They're putting in the work andtypically there's always
something else that we can helpthem with in terms of, like,
getting more creative andbroadening you know their
exposure and their reach andthings like that.
But I love being able to goback to an author and they
(20:36):
probably don't like it as much,but I love being able to go back
to an author and say you'reactually doing really well.
You know what I mean.
Like that may not, but it'slike reminding them like you're
doing a good job, you're doingall the right things.
This is the kind of base thatPenny and I talk about all the
time, that you need to focus oncreating and building off of,
(20:59):
versus always thinking aboutthat next thing.
That's slightly out of reach.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Right, exactly, and I think to that end, though, amy,
I would say that we've hadauthors where they're just like,
oh my gosh, they're so polishedand they're so ready to go, and
they've done all the rightthings, and yet they still labor
under misaligned expectations.
Right, I'm not selling, I'm notselling enough, and and part of
(21:27):
that is also we've said thisbefore on the show so many times
maybe they sit in writersgroups or they're in a Facebook
group and some guy just postedwell, I sold 10,000 books, like
last month, or whatever.
And then you read that and youthink what kind of a loser am I?
I just sold 100, you know whatI mean.
Like or whatever the number isthat a lot of times, and maybe
(21:55):
you know, maybe you are selling,you know a significant number
of books, but you don'tunderstand why you're not
selling more.
A lot of times, like as Amysaid, there's maybe one or two
things that you're just missingthat can really help, but it is
a long term.
It's you know, being asuccessful author is a long-term
commitment.
It feels like.
It feels like it shouldn't beright.
It feels like you know thewhole story about.
(22:17):
You know the, the famous singerwho slept in her van, or, um,
right, yes, right.
Or the Harry Potter author I'mso sorry Now totally spacing on
her who, like, wrote her book,who was on welfare and she wrote
Harry Potter when she wassitting in a coffee shop, like,
I get it.
I understand that those storiesare alluring and everybody
(22:41):
thinks that they are theexception to the rule.
Well, not everybody, but a lotof times authors think they are
the exception to the rule.
And what's interesting is Amy,just for the podcast, she went
into chat and we were, we were,we were going through this and
it was, it was, it was basicallya list of media qualifications
and we'll do a show on thislater.
Not that chat has all theanswers, but I'm telling you
(23:03):
right now, chat is my boyfriend,like, how weird is I'm just so
I and we're're gonna actually doa show about some cool things
that chat can do for you as anauthor.
But, came, it came up with alist of, like, core media
standards, um, for qualifyingjust to be in, you know, just to
(23:25):
get on national television andthings like that, and none of
those included just having abook, like so, so, but at the
same time, back to my point isthat everyone, a lot of times
authors and again, not everyone,I shouldn't overgeneralize like
(23:45):
that but a lot of times authorsreally believe that they are
the exception to the rule.
It's like, well, I listen toPenny and Amy, I get it, but I
don't really get it.
I'm the exception.
This is going to happen for mebecause everybody, everybody
loves my book and this is goingto be great.
And sometimes that happens, butthe majority of, in the
majority of cases that you'rejust going to set yourself up
(24:05):
for disappointment.
So, using your book to like,like I just said, build your
email list, focus on readerconnection, build those
relationships with your readers,because your readers are what
is going to carry you over thefinish line.
So, when an author comes to meand says what's the ROI from
(24:28):
this campaign, sometimes I'llsay to them like, well, okay, I
don't know how you measure theROI in building readership,
right, because that is reallywhat that's really a big your
readers.
95% of books are sold word ofmouth and you know, amy and I
have this string going in ourpersonal emails about book
(24:52):
recommendations, like I'mrecommending books to her all
the time for authors that she's,in many cases, maybe even never
even heard of Nope.
You want to build readerconnections that you don't even
know about, right, right, that'sthe whole.
You know, that is where bookone can really help to carry you
(25:15):
into book two and three andfour.
Amy, do you want to talk aboutthe author brand, which, again,
like we get it, it sounds like abig snooze, fast, right, I've
got my author brand.
We've done whole shows on this.
So if you just found this showand you're like, oh, penny and
Amy are lecturing me, hopefullythat's not, that's not your
(25:35):
takeaway, but we've doneindividual shows on reader
connections, build your emaillist and branding, which Amy's
going to talk about.
So definitely go back andlisten to those.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, the branding part is huge.
The reader connection, thereader experience, those are
very much linked, you know,because and I don't know if
we've said this in a while, weused to say it all the time, so
clearly you know, but youremember to also don't just be
the author trying to sellsomething.
Remember to also operate as areader, as a consumer as well,
(26:08):
because and think about what yougo through when you're looking
for a book, when you'reintroduced to a new author, what
are the things you look for?
You know, what are the thingsyou notice on retail pages,
things like that Make sure thereader experience, because that
is a huge part of your brand andit's a huge part of what brings
people back and or keeps theminterested enough the first time
(26:31):
to actually recognize that bookcover, because they may not buy
the first time they'reintroduced to you, but that
recognition, that namerecognition, that cover
recognition, that experience,the way they felt the first time
they got on your retail pageand what you had available to
them or what you didn't, that'sjust as big, you know.
So think about that is all partof your brand.
(26:54):
Their experience with not onlythe first, you know, your
initial introduction, your firstimpression, but then are you
giving them a reason to comeback, and that's a really huge
part of this too, and it's, it's, you know.
This is another thing we say allthe time the more seriously you
take yourself, the moreseriously potential readers will
(27:14):
take you as well, you knowRight.
So, yeah, and again, like Pennysaid, we've done lots of shows
on this, but it's, you know,nose to tail like that, having a
clean website, you know, makingan engaging book description,
making sure your cover isexceptional.
You know it.
Every single person listeningto us can make an exceptional
(27:38):
cover.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, that's something that'savailable to everybody, and I
don't think we talk about thatenough Petty.
This is not something that's outof reach for certain authors,
but it's about knowing yourmarket, working with the right
designers, things like that, andit doesn't even mean spending,
taking out a loan or anythingjust to get a book cover by any
means, but it's about educatingyourself and making the right
(28:05):
decisions.
But this is all part ofeverything's your brand, and so
what can you think about whatyou can do and most of the
things we've been talking aboutthis whole time, other than you
know the book cover.
It's free.
You know these are all like thecrossing your T's and dotting
your I's in terms of the firstimpression that people put out
there.
So much of what we talk aboutis free.
It just takes time.
It takes some self-education.
It could be a little less freeif you'd like our opinion,
(28:25):
because we love helping forthings with things like that.
But it's the investment in, likePenny said, it's the investment
in your long-term potential toconvert shoppers to buyers, and
it's so much easier to do thatcorrectly at the beginning than
it is to have to go back and fixthings Now.
(28:46):
If you're past that beginningpoint, you can still fix things,
but we're just letting the.
You know, since a lot of whatwe've been talking about about
your first book, setting thestage, your expectations for
your first book, havingrealistic goals, things like
that those are the things youshould be focused on with your
first book developing your brand, giving potential readers and
(29:06):
buyers something to connect with, because that's what lasts.
That's what really lasts.
It's not, you know, as nice asit could sound, nice and easy,
but you really don't want to bethe author that gets lucky for a
little bit, because that fades.
Having a couple good sale monthsbecause something just went
(29:28):
right based on your release.
That is not sustainable.
That is not going to besomething that develops a career
.
So don't hope you get lucky.
Don't hope that you know you'rean exception.
Like Penny said, just do theright things and you'll be
totally surprised at how themomentum will continue to build
for you if you have a goodfoundation and a strong brand.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, exactly, and you know, the good foundation
takes time.
It's taken time, you know, andI I wrote my books in
conjunction with starting mybusiness.
I mean, the, the, the platformstuff takes time, but I promise
you it's worth.
It's worth the price ofadmission.
(30:12):
It absolutely is.
Um, and I think the final pointof what is important, and
regardless of where you're at inyour writing career
understanding the basics of thepublishing industry and also
what book discovery looks likefor your readers.
(30:35):
And I know that when you thinkbook discovery, well, I could
just put it up on Amazon and Iget it, but where do your
readers find your books?
Right?
That's something that having abook out there will help you to
figure out, and you know.
The other thing, though, too,is I'll tell you if you come
(30:55):
away from publishing your firstbook and promoting your first
book and think here are fivethings that I could have that I
wish I would have known that Icould have done differently.
I think that's awesome, becausewhat that means is is you have
learned from your mistakes, oryou have learned in the process
maybe not, maybe not even frommistakes.
And now the next book that youdo.
(31:16):
Every single time you wereleveling up.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yep, I love that perspective.
That's a very good point.
Yeah, if you're completelyclueless as to why your book
hasn't taken off, that'sactually a much tougher position
to be in.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
It's a tough, it's a tougher position to be in.
I mean, it's one that Amy and Ireally love to kind of figure
out, because we, we love to puton our little publishing
detective hats and figure outwhat went wrong, and a lot of
times that's fun too, but that'snot very fun for you, right.
It doesn't really empower theauthor to not know what's wrong.
And I think you know, and evenlike with so I'm doing the
(31:54):
Amazon author formula workbook,which is a partner book to the
Amazon author formula.
And even, you know, even like 24books out now I guess this is
my 25th.
I guess I publish a book a yearsince I've been in business.
That's like super weird.
But um, I I've learned a lot,even from going from that book
(32:15):
to this book, to this workbook,and part of it is just by nature
of creating something that's sogranular, with worksheets and
all this other stuff.
Every book.
If you can come away with sometakeaways like, oh my gosh, I
wish I would have done, I wish Iwould have done, then that is a
huge win.
That is an awesome, huge win.
(32:36):
So don't beat yourself up ifyou're one of those authors
because I do talk to authors whosay that to me and they are
beating themselves up and youshouldn't.
Because that learningexperience, man, you cannot.
You cannot buy that learningexperience.
That's phenomenal.
I think.
Did we cover everything?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Did we?
Yeah, I think we did.
I think just.
I love that we ended this witheducation, though, because, yes,
we can sit here and remind youof all the things that you
should be doing and all thethings that you should avoid and
in the mistakes and stuff likethat, and hope you're finding,
you know, valuable informationhere and you're taking notes and
whatnot or re-listening toepisodes, but you know, but it
(33:19):
doesn't completely replace theself-education part, empowering
yourself to understand what theand I think it also helps keep
expectations in check, right,penny?
I mean, if you're readingindustry newsletters and
actively looking for resourceson what's going on in publishing
, hopefully you're using some ofthat to also reframe, kind of
(33:41):
what your plans are.
You know and understanding,like, okay, my next book is
coming out soon, x number ofmonths out.
What can I be doing this timearound to be better?
I love that you mentioned that,penny.
Like I challenge everybody tomake your list of five things
that you can do better for yournext book.
Or, if you don't have a newbook coming out super soon, what
(34:04):
are five things you could dodifferently in the next three to
four months or over the summer?
You know, like, what are somepositive changes you can make
that reframe what you're focusedon and can help contribute to
these bigger goals.
Like let's reframe what successis, so let's get those five
things written down.
Work to get those done in 100%.
(34:27):
Call that a major win.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And you know what I'm making.
I'm actually writing down noteswhile we're doing this podcast.
I'm actually going to puttogether some social media and
maybe even a video or somethingon reframing success and looking
at and like asking authors whatare their five things, and I
also think that, in part as partof education, I think it's also
(34:51):
really good to follow otherauthors in your market, because
you will learn so much just fromlike oh, that's a great idea,
and I would say that I want toencourage you not that any of
our listeners would do this, but, you know, don't copy, but let
it spark ideas.
(35:12):
It might spark ideas.
Or, you know, in some authors,like there was an author,
there's an author that I followand I can't think of their name
right now but they really went,like they really opened up the
kimono and they were like,here's what I did leading up to
and you know, leading up to myfirst book being published and
here's what the sales were andit's interesting.
(35:33):
I wish that now that I hadsaved that so we could share it
as part of this podcast.
This was this author's firstbook and they had this crazy
launch schedule, like literally,like I'm reading this launch
schedule.
I'm like, oh my God, I'm sotired right now, and they sold
something like a thousand booksin the first month, and you may
(35:54):
be listening to this thinkingI'd kill for a thousand book
sales, but when you looked atthis list of everything that
this author had done, I wouldhave expected that to be a
thousand in the first day.
I mean, it was just so.
The other piece of it, though,too, and I think the final piece
(36:15):
I keep saying that we're at theend of the show and then I keep
thinking of stuff, but I thinkthe final piece is that it's
great to have an aggressivelaunch plan.
I love that, because you wantto give your book it's the long
runway of success, right?
You want to make sure thatyou're getting out you know,
promoting your book six or eightmonths after it's been out,
because you wanted to just throwthe book up on Amazon and see
what it was doing like, do it onits own.
(36:41):
Basically, it probably didnothing, but so having a launch
plan is a really good idea.
But also be mindful that, yes,you can create lots of videos.
Yes, you can be sending outnewsletters.
Yes, you can do all thosethings, and if you have the time
to do that, that's great.
(37:01):
But initially you may bespeaking to an empty room or
maybe there's just like your momand a few other people that are
listening to you.
So it's great to have thatcontent and I don't want to
discourage you from doing that.
But don't think that justbecause you have a super
aggressive launch plan that allof a sudden everything is going
to go viral and you're going tobe an overnight success and then
you're going to write to Amyand go neener, neener, neener.
(37:23):
Look at how successful like youguys are wrong on your podcast.
Look at how.
Look at now I'm doing the voiceright, it's contagious.
Sorry, it's so contagious, butI mean.
You know it's great to do allthis stuff.
I love authors that do all thethings.
Just make sure that yourexpectations aren't for instant
(37:44):
fame, because nobody is bornfamous and with that we're going
to have a lot of during therollout of the pre-order or the
Amazon author formula workbook.
We're going to have a lot ofreally fun stuff.
So be on the lookout for that.
If you follow us on social media, definitely be on the lookout
for that.
Thank you so much for listening.
(38:06):
If this is your first listenand we didn't totally discourage
you with our reality checkpodcast.
Be sure to follow us.
We drop a show every Friday.
We would love to have you as anongoing listener.
To those of you who havefollowed us and listened, we get
emails all the time fromauthors like I'm binging all the
(38:26):
shows.
I love all the shows, thank you, thank you, thank you so much.
It means the world to us.
We also love reviews.
Wherever you listen to podcasts, yes, please, yeah, or email us
the us um, email us the review,if it's sometimes.
I know Apple doesn't alwaysmake it easy to leave reviews.
So, thank you so much forlistening.
We'll see you next time,bye-bye.
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