October 8, 2024 • 51 mins
Consider a new way to transform communities with insights from Mack McCarter, author of "How to Remake the World, Neighborhood by Neighborhood." Discover how positive relationships can serve as the foundation for thriving communities and address the age-old issue of societal collapse. By learning from historical studies and successful community initiatives, you'll gain a fresh perspective on fostering resilience and growth through genuine connections.
We discuss how love, commitment, and caring relationships can transform individual lives and entire neighborhoods. The conversation highlights the profound impact of prioritizing relational foundations. Inspired by examples from Shreveport and beyond, we delve into the challenges and successes of nurturing a caring community ethos that spans various institutions.
Show Notes:
- Further Reading: A Study of History by Arnold Toynbee, The Philosophy of Civilization by Albert Schweitzer, and Lewis Mumford’s books: the City in History, the Culture of Cities, and the Transformations of Man.
- Resources on the We Care Team discussed in the show: https://communityrenewal.us/renewal-team/
- To help support the show, pick up a copy of the book through our Amazon Affiliates page at https://amzn.to/3TVsooN or even better, get a copy through your local bookstore!
- To view the show transcripts, click on the episode at https://bookedonplanning.buzzsprout.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Rouse (00:00):
We wanted to take a moment to thank our
episode sponsor, Olsson.
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(00:23):
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services, environmental andtechnology.
You're listening to the Bookedon Planning podcast, a project
of the Nebraska chapter of theAmerican Planning Association.
(00:45):
In each episode we dive intohow cities function, by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
(01:06):
Planning.
In this episode we talk withauthor Mac McArthur on his book
how to Remake the World,neighborhood by Neighborhood.
This episode we have a guestco-host who, if you're a
longtime listener of the show,you may recognize from our GIS
episode in Season 1.
Kurt Elder personally knows Macand spent a month living down
in Shreveport, louisiana,learning from Mac, which is
where the ideas for this booktook root.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:28):
This was such a lovely and uplifting
conversation, reminding everyonethat caring for yourself and
your neighbors and yourcommunity can make such a big
difference.
I love the conversation with somuch optimism and I hope that
you do too.
Stephanie Rouse (01:39):
One thing listeners will pick up on pretty
quickly is Mac's passion andcommitment to creating a world
of caring individuals, oneindividual at a time.
He even mentions at one pointthat this was the reason he was
put on this earth to see thiswork through.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:52):
It's a bit of a longer episode.
So let's get into ourconversation with author Mac
McCarter on his book how toRemake the World, neighborhood
by Neighborhood.
Stephanie Rouse (02:02):
Mac, thank you for joining us on Booked Up
Planning to talk about your bookhow to Remake the World,
Neighborhood by Neighborhood.
The book is founded on thestory of how connecting people
who care for one another hastransformed entire neighborhoods
.
Can you talk about where thefoundation for this idea that
positive relationships willimprove decaying neighborhoods
came from?
Mack McCarter (02:22):
I am glad to do it, and, stephanie, it's
wonderful to be with you andJennifer and Kurt, and I'm
honored to be a part of this.
I pastored churches for about18 years, and my major in
seminary was actually under afellow from Lincoln, nebraska,
and he was one of the threefounders of the discipline of
(02:44):
pastoral psychology.
The whole idea is pastors docounseling, but they haven't
been trained.
This was in the early 1940s,and so he went back to
University of Nebraska and got aPhD in psychology and then
applied that to the pastorshipand it became a discipline
that's now in every seminary,and so he was my major professor
(03:07):
.
If a pastor is not a physicianof relationships, I don't know
what pastors are supposed to bedoing, how we relate to one
another and how we relate to God, and so therefore, with about
16,000 hours of counselingpremarital counseling, marital
counseling, friends that beginto hit a rocky road, folks that
(03:29):
had problems with their faithall had a relational base, and
so the one thing that Iunderstood very clearly is that
relationships, humanrelationships have rules, and
those rules are just asineluctable as the laws of
gravity, and there are certainthings you have to do to be
(03:49):
friends, and there are certainthings you must not do, Certain
things you have to say, certainthings you shouldn't say, but
we'll screw up.
That's another rule.
And therefore another rule iswe have to confess that and then
we have to forgive that and werepair the relationships that
have been broken.
And so I literally was trainedin that.
(04:10):
And when I picked up the thirdvolume of Arnold Toynbee, who
had decided in the early 30sthat we have to study
civilization and make a scienceout of studying civilization,
and that had really never takenplace, it had been chronicled
but never studied as a science.
(04:32):
So Toynbee undertook a journeycalled A Study of History, which
was 12 volumes from the early30s up until the 60s.
The 12th volume was written andliterally analyzed.
He picked out the leadingcivilizations in American
history I mean in world historyand compared and contrasted
those.
(04:52):
As a matter of fact, he becamevery famous in the 40s.
They had his picture on Timemagazine and his statement about
civilization is the epitaph ofall civilizations is suicide.
We have never grown acivilization that actually gets
better and better and better andbetter.
Every civilization we havegrown has begun, started,
(05:15):
flourished, then began todecline, decay and then collapse
, every single one.
And Lewis Mumford, incredibleauthor and thinker, said that
the chief enigma of all ofhistory is why do we keep
collapsing the societies that weconstruct?
We've done it over and over andone of the reasons is is we're
kind of like fish born in anocean, and that is, they don't
(05:37):
think about the ocean, they juststart swimming.
And when we have society aroundus, we don't think about it how
it got there, what we have todo to sustain it, et cetera.
We just go to work, we get ourdegrees, we just keep working.
So this is a long way around ofsaying which I always give, the
long way around of saying thatwhen I read that third volume in
(06:00):
Toynbee and Toynbee actuallydefined civilization that moment
was October the 27th 1981.
And I was in my study and I readthe words society is a system
of relationships, I literallystood straight up when I read
that.
I went my gosh.
(06:21):
If that's what society is as amatter of fact, I've got chills
right now thinking about it.
If that's what society andcivilization is, that if we
could obey the rules of arelationship.
I watched married couples thatwere so distraught and I watched
(06:52):
friends who were so broken intheir friendship.
I literally watched them behealed if they obeyed the rules
you know and were willing toinvest themselves into the big
rule what do we share togetherin common?
All relationships are based uponthat, and so, consequently, in
(07:12):
our friendships, we know how tomake friendships, we know how to
repair friendships, butsometimes we need a physician to
help us in those things.
And so, consequently, I said,if we can take those rules and
then find a way tosystematically restore the
relational connectedness andrelational foundation, then we
(07:36):
can be used in the healing ofthe brokenness of our world.
We only have one world.
There's no lifeboat off thisworld, and we had better learn
to live together in this one bighouse that we've got, or we
literally are looking at thedestruction of our entire
species and that, I know, ismuch larger than the
(07:59):
neighborhoods.
But we have to think of theworld as one big neighborhood.
And then we have to get down tothe micro and say, okay, we
need to grow a model that canactually take the rules of
relationships and walk those outin the streets of a city and
begin to have that model andthen replicate that model on
(08:23):
reconnecting folks together inrelationships, but do it
systematically, and then we'vegot something that will be very,
very powerful.
I might add one other thingvery quickly Remember that
relationships are only formed bywhat we share together in
common.
That's how we buildrelationships.
(08:43):
We cannot start with ourindividual uniqueness and guard
that and expect to have arelationship that will grow.
What do we share together incommon?
I said human beings sharetogether in common, and this is
before all the physiologicalevidence came in.
We share in common the capacityto care for each other.
(09:06):
We've got over 8 billion peopleon this planet.
We are hardwired to care.
All of the science is now there.
When I started we didn't havethat science, but we have the
capacity to care.
So let's devote ourselves towhat we share in common.
Let's celebrate our uniquenessourselves to what we share in
(09:27):
common.
Let's celebrate our uniqueness,but let's devote ourselves to
that, and so that's the genesisof this model.
Jennifer Hiatt (09:31):
I found it very interesting that you very
intentionally use the wordcaring in the book instead of
love.
You know we're taught to loveour neighbor, but instead you
talk about the caring aspect.
So can you explain why you feltit was really important to make
that linguistic choice?
Mack McCarter (09:47):
Thanks, jennifer, because that's a great question
.
I did use caring because whenyou say love, it takes people A
to a place of intimacy that isfrightening to them to say you
know, I don't really know you,how can I love you?
But I can care about you, andso it makes the threshold of
(10:07):
entry lower for us and it canease our way into this idea that
I'm here to care for each andevery and all human beings.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is you listento a song that says I danced
with you and knew that I wouldlove you forever.
That's great.
That happens, you know, once,probably in an eon, the word
(10:32):
love and even the concept oflove has been cheapened to an
attraction level, and of coursewe know that it's much deeper
than that.
And the word agape is not afeeling, it is a commitment to
seek the good of the other justas you seek your own good.
(10:53):
And, trust me, no matter whatwe think or say or what our
inner voices say, we're going toseek our own good, period.
I just have to know that mygood rests in seeking your good,
and when I can make thattransfer, then it really
redirects my life in a wonderfuland fulfilling way.
(11:13):
I'm not seeking my own goodActually, that's always there
but it's been judoed intoknowing that my good rests in
you and your well-being.
And when we can then go fromour own little family and our
own race and our own church andour own nation and understand
that that's true for all homosapiens, that then we have the
(11:37):
worldview that can be healingfor our world.
Kurt Elder (11:40):
This foundational relationship model of community
development has expanded intoother institutionalized settings
throughout your we Care Schoolseffort.
How is the work that you do inthe community different than
what you do in the schools?
Mack McCarter (11:54):
Port Kurt.
I went back to Shreveport and Isaid, okay, I've counseled
individuals and couples.
Now how in the world do we makethat practically applicable to
(12:14):
the 300,000 people in the metroaround Shreveport and Bossier
City and in Louisiana, I mightadd?
So how in the world do we dothat?
And again, what came to me wasthe vision of a swimming pool.
How do you make an unhealthypool healthy enough to swim in?
You watch these lifeguards.
They'll dip down their testtube and they'll look at it and
they'll go okay, it's healthy,y'all can swim.
(12:35):
Or we need to add this or addthat.
And so what hit me was we haveto know one thing how do we
clean one molecule of H2O?
If we don't know how to cleanone molecule of H2O, then we'll
never be able to clean that pool, no matter how elaborate we get
.
But if that's all we know, wecan't clean the pool.
(12:58):
Now, unfortunately, we've alljumped in the water and we're
madly cleaning molecules.
You know, you get everybody inthere and we're cleaning
molecules and we can provestatistically that, hey, we're
making all kinds of improvements.
I came from a church background.
I could say last year we had 50baptisms, this year 100
baptisms.
But the pool isn't gettingclean, and so, as a matter of
(13:22):
fact, there are arguments thatit is going the other way.
So somebody a lot smarter thanme invented a system that we
call a swimming pool filter.
That literally takes thereactive process of cleaning
molecules, puts it into a systemand brings in billions of
molecules at once and runs themout.
And if you get the ratio ofvolume and velocity fast enough,
(13:46):
we have the technology, andthat's the reason I call
community renewal a socialtechnology.
We have the technology to cleanpools.
We can now clean practicallyanything.
The astronauts well, I won'tmention what they can clean and
drink, but we now have anincredible technology to do that
(14:06):
.
And so, kurt, stop and think ofall of these identifiable
things in society, theirinstitutions, their
organizations, their groups,their businesses, government,
but all of those are inhabitedby what?
By people.
And so, therefore, there is themolecular that is common
(14:30):
throughout everything, if we'regoing to take those fundamental
truths on building relationshipsand put those to work and make
those primary.
When we make our relationalfoundation primary, it's never
secondary, it is never a meansto something, it is the end in
itself.
(14:51):
How we treat and care for oneanother.
The we Care Schools is a greatexample.
Has her doctorate because shewrote her dissertation on what
happened at UniversityElementary in Shreveport,
louisiana, and how it wastransformed.
The University Elementary wasbuilt for 400 kids.
(15:12):
They've got 1,200 in it andit's the most cosmopolitan
school in Shreveport.
Many different languages arespoken there.
So anyway, over 700 referrals tothe principal's office.
Once they put a system therethat made caring for each other
that involved the principal, theteachers, the janitors and the
(15:33):
kids, they had 27 referrals lastyear.
All of their test scores havegone up.
It was all as a result of theprimacy of caring relationships.
They literally found a way tomove that relational dedication
throughout the classroom, therecess, everything.
(15:53):
They made it the number onepriority.
So I'm going to answer thequestion by saying if a bank
makes that the number onepriority, if your corporation
makes that the number onepriority, if that's the number
one priority, if yourcorporation makes that the
number one priority, if that'sthe number one priority not just
to care for each other but tocare for one another that
becomes that all-inclusive anduniversal touch that touches the
(16:16):
fundamental part of being human.
That now is the entire pool ofhumanity, is the entire pool of
humanity.
The key is to do it in anintentional way.
Think of strategies, then, thatnow go into universities, that
now go into businesses, etcetera, and then figure these
(16:37):
ways out to systematically do it.
I can't figure out forbusinesses how they may carry
for one another in their companyand outside of their company
what they need to do to makethat priority.
But business people can, and ifthey're dedicated to that, then
we have now ignited them andthat joins us together.
Stephanie Rouse (16:58):
Speaking of finding caring people you point
out in the book, it's prettyeasy to find caring people after
a catastrophic event like ahurricane or in the case in
Lincoln a month or so ago we hada really bad windstorm and had
massive amounts of tree branchesdown.
And you go outside and justneighbors were coming together
helping clear roads and so it'seasy in those situations.
(17:18):
But we have so many systemicissues like homelessness that is
just happening over a longerperiod of time.
How do you find the caringpeople for those kinds of
situations?
Mack McCarter (17:28):
First thing to recognize is that every single
human being is hardwired to care, every single one.
I used to exclude psychopathicpersonalities, I mean due to my
background.
I thought, well, psychopathscannot fit in that.
But psychopaths will even docaring acts within their
(17:51):
particular realm, and I've nevermet a psychopathic baby.
And so, consequently, we're allhardwired to join together in
caring, and physiologically, and, as I said, all the proof is
there.
So the first thing to realizeis because we're hardwired to do
that, everyone is a caringperson.
(18:13):
It isn't like we're not caring.
Here's the conundrum how in theworld can an entire species,
given our DNA, which was formedby recognizing, if we don't help
each other I'm talking about inthe early days of entering onto
the savanna, coming out of theforest if we don't hang together
(18:37):
, we're gone.
In fact, if you got separatedfrom the group of these fragile
hominids, you die period.
And so we're hardwired to betogether and all of our
physiology is enhanced when wecome together.
In fact, they've provenserotonin, which enhances our
(18:58):
immune system.
Serotonin goes up when youreceive a caring act.
Somebody does an act ofkindness to you.
Your serotonin goes up when youdo a caring act.
Your serotonin goes up when youdo a caring act, your serotonin
goes up.
When you see a caring act, yourserotonin goes up.
When you even hear about acaring act, your serotonin level
(19:20):
goes up.
That's all hard science.
So, consequently, stop andthink we are caring.
But here we are, as a specieson the verge of the possibility
of self-annihilation.
Now, how do you have a specieswhere over 8 billion people are
hardwired to care for each otherand we're hanging by a nuclear
(19:42):
thread of completeself-annihilation as a species?
You know that doesn't even makesense.
What has happened is it isn'tthat we aren't caring, it's
because we care randomly.
Random acts of caring will notcure our world.
Or we just care for those closearound us, or we're just caring
(20:03):
for our race, or we're justcaring for our nation All of
these ways of caring and we'reinvisible and we're not caring
together.
So we haven't created apowerful public army of folks
who are intentionally dedicatedto caring.
I tell about the guy that getson the airplane at Los Angeles
(20:25):
and he's flying to New York Cityand he starts acting like the
fool and they have to duct tapethe guy to his chair in the
airplane and they divert theflight and they land in Denver
and it's on the evening news.
Well, he just flew overmillions and millions of human
beings like you and me, who areout there cleaning the streets
(20:47):
Stephanie, after a storm who areout there doing this.
We're invisible because we'renormal.
We don't make news, and so theanomalies of human behavior are
amplified on the evening newsbecause these guys are not
normal, therefore they're news.
And so then we start thinkingwell, that's the way the
normality is, and we get afraid.
(21:09):
But actually the normal thingis all of these caring people
that are not making the news.
And that's the reality.
And what happens withcatastrophe is that surfaces us
and we become news because wesee our goodness revealed.
9-11 didn't change the peoplein New York City.
(21:29):
It revealed them.
It revealed these caring things.
So how do we deal with endemicproblems?
Because a catastrophe is anacute situation, but there are
chronic situations within humansociety and that is where, when
we make our caring intentionaland systematic and we make it
(21:52):
corporate, then we come with thesolutions to our poor brothers
and sisters who are there on thestreet corners, etc.
When I'm walking down thestreet.
I don't know how to solve that.
All I know how to do is you'veasked me, let me respond in
kindness, but I don't know howto solve your situation.
(22:13):
But when we prioritize and whenwe care together and when we
come forward with corporatesolutions systematically, we can
have folks who will figure outa way to systematically do this.
And I've got to give acommercial because we have what
we call a we Care team, and I'mgoing to just read this card
(22:36):
that I'm lifting up.
It says humanity's highestpurpose is to care together to
make our world a caring familywhere every single human being
is safe, loved and joyfullyfulfilled.
You begin to achieve ourpurpose today by making the we
Care promise.
And the we Care promise is thisknowing that I'm already a
(22:59):
caring person, I promise to carefor all human beings.
Check.
I recognize that caring bymyself will not change the world
.
So I will take my place on thewe Care team and join with all
others who have made thispromise Check.
I will now do my part inachieving our purpose by
inviting my family and friendsto join with me in the we Care
(23:21):
promise.
Check.
And this isn't joiningcommunity renewal.
I'm not here to get a greatnonprofit.
That's crazy.
We have to heal this world andthat's the fundamental challenge
that is before us.
We only have two challenges.
We have a lot of problems.
There are only two challenges.
One is we've got to have a veryhealthy planet Earth.
(23:44):
If we don't have a healthyplanet Earth, we all go down.
A very healthy planet Earth.
If we don't have a healthyplanet Earth, we all go down.
The second is we've neverconstructed a global society
that literally grows and getsbetter and better and better
through caring for one another.
And unless we do that, theamazing thing is, the primary
challenge of a healthy planetcan only be answered by
(24:04):
investing ourselves in thesecondary challenge and that is
all coming together in thehealing of our planet.
Jennifer Hiatt (24:18):
Because we can get everybody in, but if China
doesn't join we're going tostill get a sick planet and to
the end of Finding Caring Peopleand the systems that you
mentioned in trying to createthat system, the book discusses
the idea of six basicmanifestations of growing as a
human being, which we all needto do.
Mack McCarter (24:39):
So what are these ?
And how can we all grow ashuman beings?
Since we need to, we have whatwe call the five questions, and
the five questions are what kindof world do we need to be the
best human being that we can be?
And then we ask what kind ofsociety makes possible that kind
of world?
Or you could say what kind ofchurch, or you could say what
kind of business, et cetera.
The third question is what kindof person makes possible that
(25:01):
kind of society that makespossible that kind of world?
The fourth is what kind ofenvironment makes possible that
kind of person?
And the is what kind ofenvironment makes possible that
kind of person?
And the fifth is what do wehave to do to make that
environment, to make that person, to make that society, make
that world?
And so we start with the thirdquestion, because we have to
look at what kind of person arewe seeking?
(25:23):
Because everything hinges onthat.
And we say a whole person.
And a whole person is a personwho is competent and
compassionate.
In our lingo, it means growingas a human being.
Competency equals growing andcompassion equals giving.
How do we need to grow and thereare only six ways that human
(25:46):
beings can grow.
We grow physically, and we'vegot to grow on our own
nourishment.
And the second thing is we growintellectually.
The third is we growemotionally.
I'm different than I was when Iwas two my wife doesn't believe
that all the time, but I am andthen we grow skillfully.
I drive around up here inWashington DC.
(26:09):
I couldn't do that when I wasthree.
And we grow in life skills.
We grow socially.
You know you always say aboutkids now you got to learn to get
along.
And then we also growspiritually.
Now what that means is notjumping over pews in a church
and throwing hymn books becauseyou get all excited.
What that means is is therecognition that there is more
(26:33):
here than me, myself and I.
When we recognize that, it putsus on the way to spiritual
growth.
And consequently, that begins,jennifer, to begin to help us,
to intentionally begin to walkinto wholeness.
And the astonishing thing is wecannot grow in any of those
(26:55):
areas alone.
I mean, you might think wecould.
The only thing that we do byourselves is we pass away
Everything else.
Is critical to understand thatonly by entering into what we
call positive relationshipsY'all.
There are negativerelationships and those can kill
(27:16):
you, but a positiverelationship is that which grows
us under.
The idea is that we'recommitted to one another and to
seeking one another's good.
There's a lot of improvementand it's a lifetime in that
journey, but it is a journeythat literally makes us people,
and that's what it means to dothat.
(27:36):
Well, I started preaching again, but I'm excited.
Kurt Elder (27:40):
Community Renewal International has developed a
methodology to break down theorganization into its component
elements and derive how theactivities affect an
individual's competency andcompassion, which then leads to
shifts in the community, Thingsthat we've been talking about.
How have your results?
You know, lower crime rates,better connected, among others.
(28:01):
How have those resultsinfluenced or impacted budgetary
support at the local level,that's?
Mack McCarter (28:08):
a great question.
You know people say what's yourdevelopment strategy?
And I say we're hoping to winPowerball and, you know, mega
Millions.
That's kind of our strategy.
No, I'm teasing Kurt.
I had a wonderful dear friendnamed Millard Fuller.
Millard and Linda foundedHabitat for Humanity.
(28:30):
Millard would always say, toget them into a home and have
home ownership for the firsttime, and the money is in your
(28:51):
pocket.
I can't throw enough money atyou.
That's fabulous and I followyou on the stage.
Well, mac, what are you doing?
Well, we're rebuilding therelational foundation in order
to restore, you know, the wholesystem of civilization, in order
to restore, you know, the wholesystem of civilization, and
that's about as exciting aswatching the guacamole dip turn
(29:12):
black at a party.
So this has been a real, realstruggle.
To tell you the truth, becausewhen we started CURD, the whole
vision came in 1981.
And then, when I moved toShreveport in 91, to really
really put this on the ground,we had what we call the
Tupperware strategy.
(29:32):
I had a lot of friends and theywould throw parties and I'd
share a vision because we didn'thave a model that actually
would show.
You know, that if we didrebuild intentionally the
relational foundation andreconnect folks together, that
that would then flow like leaveninto every phase of our
(29:54):
community.
And so I literally started alsowith the business community,
saying if Shreveportdisintegrates it's not good for
your business.
And so trying to help people tosee that if we could go forth
in this grand experiment itwasn't that grand at the time,
you know just this grandexperiment.
(30:15):
Then it lifted all of the ships, because it's the fundamental
nature of the ocean in which weswim.
If we can restore the health ofthis ocean we call society,
everyone benefits.
So in those years we didn't havea model and we didn't have a
lot of the evidence that is nowcatching on.
(30:37):
And it was very, very difficultto get funding except through
folks, mostly on the individuallevel.
And then Robert Wood Johnsoncame in because they said after
10 years they came to us andthey said we have all the
evidence to show that, a ifyou're in a good relationship.
(31:00):
C it means that you will havegood health.
But we don't have the B how todo that on a societal basis?
And we believe y'all do.
And they did something they'dnever done before and that is
they hired a five team group,different disciplines.
It was headed by the guy thatwas the head at the time of the
(31:21):
School of Public Health atTulane.
They spent a year with us andtheir report back to Robert Wood
Johnson said not only can thisbe evaluated and measured yes,
it can, but it needs to be anational program.
And that was their conclusion.
And then they changed CEOs andthat report was put on the shelf
(31:44):
.
And so, anyway, the shift thatwe've experienced since 2016 is
a real understanding of thecritical nature of the
relational foundation and I callit relational foundation and
infrastructure.
Everyone now is talking aboutthat.
(32:05):
We're talking about lonelinessbeing an epidemic.
That's all coming.
So, while we have had a toughtime showing what we're seeking
to show because they call itindeed this is the way of the
future and you've got to takethis into account Simply in the
(32:33):
act itself becomes the result.
Our process is our product.
The product is is a world offriendship.
Well, the process is makingfriends, and that's why I tell
people up here.
I said I want the whole worldand, kurt, I'll tell you, buddy,
I want the whole world to befriends like you and our friends
(32:54):
.
It's all a way of saying it'sreally hard to raise money on
this.
Stephanie Rouse (33:02):
Well, speaking of making the whole world
friends.
The book really focuses a loton examples from Shreveport, but
you referenced that thisconcept has appeared in other
communities and other countries.
How do you take these kind ofconcepts and scale them to
national level, internationallevel and get buy-in in other
communities?
Mack McCarter (33:22):
I have a friend who is the chairman of our
National Advisory Board.
Who is the chairman of ourNational Advisory Board?
He's from Shreveport and hisname is John Dalton, and John
was the Secretary of the Navyunder President Clinton for five
years outstanding.
And John told me, mac, we needto move the model to Washington
DC.
He said in Washington, everysingle nation is represented
(33:46):
here in Washington and they'renot going to come to Shreveport
to see the model, so we've gotto stand it up here.
At the ripe age of 68, I movedto Washington in 2013 to start
all over, and so what we'redoing in Washington is put the
model in place and then begin tohave people see that and then
(34:08):
take that to their nations.
Just this year, we've got anincredible thing happening in
Slovakia, for instance, and allkinds of things happening in
Ethiopia, and the person who wasthe first woman chief justice
in Ethiopia and the only chiefjustice just joined the WeCare
(34:30):
team last week.
She's got 6,000 lawyers underher.
And we've got incredible workgoing on in Cameroon since 2005,
the nation of Cameroon.
We've got WeCare schools inCameroon, we've got an
International House ofFriendships there, we've got
(34:51):
country initiatives happeningall over there and we've started
Africa Community Renewal people.
And this is so important,stephanie, because people say,
well, how does this happen?
You have to expose people to avision of what the world should
(35:13):
be and what the world needs tobe, and you've got to be able to
show one day there will be nomore weeping and tears, one day
we will be kind to every singleone of us, there will be no more
war, and so that's the visionof a loving family, and that
vision, slash, has to be yourpurpose.
(35:36):
We have to have that.
And then we have to show aclear pathway how to get there.
And then we have to have afellowship to walk together and
grow this seed of dedicatedpeople into the entire
environment.
And so, consequently, when westart with sharing the vision
(35:58):
and showing a pathway, becausepeople are not going to have
their hope ignited, it justbecomes a wish to say, oh, let
there be peace on earth.
That's just a wish, unless youcan show an actual way to get
there.
And, by the way, if you getthree people to join the we Care
team and then retire, and theneach of them get three people to
(36:21):
join the we Care team, one aday for three days, you go say,
okay, join the we Care team, onea day for three days.
You go say, ok, join the weekair team, one a day for three
days.
You got three people.
And then they go get threepeople.
In 61 days You'll have eightbillion seven hundred and twenty
six million nine hundred andsixty thousand nine hundred and
(36:42):
sixty two human beings who havejoined the we Care Team in 61
days.
And so you have to show apathway that leads to the kind
of world where, literally,caring now comes together.
Now we began to see this happen.
It's quiet, but we're buildingthis, stephanie, and we're
(37:04):
leavening like salt and leaven.
That's how we're going Show thevision, attract people to that
vision.
They say, yeah, that's the kindof world I want.
Jennifer Hiatt (37:15):
You mentioned in the book the journey from the
village to the city.
We're city planners, so we'rekind of city oriented.
Back to the village.
And why is it important that were-villageize our society?
Dr Anneke Vandenbroek.
Mack McCarter (37:28):
The village was the vehicle that literally
transformed human beings.
There was a place that somebody, somewhere, that said we ain't
going to follow you to hunt andgather anymore.
You go ahead and hunt andgather, but we're going to stay
(37:48):
here and plant ourselves andwe're going to use this place
that we're now staying and we'regoing to form a womb-like
structure of caring for oneanother.
That literally can changeeverything, and it did.
The village probably goes backwe have evidence, archaeological
(38:08):
evidence about 14,000 years,but I think goes back farther
than that, and the village wasthis supporting collective of
human beings and they learned tolive together in a common sense
and it literally transformedthe human race.
So what I did is I went backand studied ontology what are
(38:31):
the basic elements of thevillage, with the idea that what
has happened to us one of thegreat examples is when I grew up
on planet Earth, I lived in thesame neighborhood my whole life
and I still jog down thatneighborhood.
I can tell you where everysingle person lived, every one
of them.
I could name them.
The neighborhood was like myvillage.
(38:52):
We had that kind of corporatestructure that made it possible
for me to grow up with someguardrails and with some sense
of how we have to act together.
And now what's happened?
What's happened is we can emailpeople all over the world and
we don't know who's living anddying four houses down from us
(39:16):
or four apartments away.
We might wave at them, but wedon't know them and we've gotten
disconnected.
And we have to intentionallyget reconnected because
disconnection brings dysfunctionperiod and all the accompanying
disabilities that come withthat loneliness, meaninglessness
(39:36):
, depression, we can name allthat.
And so consequently, there hasto be the intentional coming
together with those elements.
The eight elements are safetyand security.
You found that in the village,safety is environmental,
security is psychological,meaningful work, a way to
(39:57):
transmit knowledge and wisdom.
That's education.
Then you had a healthcaredelivery system with the
medicine man, you had dwellingsthat folks lived in, you had
leadership and you had mutuallyenhancing relationships.
And that's the part that webring.
And so, consequently, withsafety, security, then health
(40:22):
care, and then dwellings andeducation and work and
leadership, and then all tiedtogether with mutually enhancing
relationships.
So if we can do that, then wecan now go to literally go bite
by bite and reconnect our citiesgeographically where you live.
We've got to get grounded.
(40:42):
In that way we can reach out tothe world and touch the world,
but we've got to touch oneanother.
Kurt Elder (40:50):
If you could go back in time and give advice to a
younger you on the journey thatyou were about to start, what
advice would you tell yourself?
And is that the same advice youwould give or offer other
champions who are ready to pickup this work in their own
communities?
Mack McCarter (41:08):
Well, it's been such a pilgrimage, kurt, that if
I have gained any insights andany wisdom, it has been through,
you know, making the journey.
The only thing that I can say,I mean there are so many things,
Look, as the folks that reallyreally know me well know as a
(41:28):
matter of fact.
I'll tell you this story.
One of my dear friends is a guynamed Larry Faulkner, and Larry
and I grew up together andLarry became the president of
the University of Texas, and soI'm with Larry in his office and
Larry looks at me and he saysMackie, you have really, really
helped my belief in God.
And I said well, larry, that'sreally great.
(41:51):
He was filling out his we Careteam card and he said, yeah, he
said this is so important and sopowerful, this whole idea of
coming together, it could notpossibly have come from you.
I know you.
Therefore, there has to be aGod, there has to be a God, and
(42:17):
so the folks that know me wellknow what a numb Skolinski I am,
and so, therefore, the wholething has to do with seeing that
the one purpose for which wemust all live is the purpose of
caring together to make ourwhole world a caring family
where every single person can besafe and loved and joyfully
(42:38):
fulfilled.
Now, in that process, I wouldsay to a young me and to a young
everyone you still have to makethe journey.
We're learning how to do this.
There are things that we couldbe more efficient at.
I mean, if you came and reallydid an analysis of Community
Renewal International, you couldtake the blue pen and I'll fill
(43:01):
out a whole tablet for you,because, given the goal of
coming together and loving oneanother on this planet and
treasuring one another, giventhat goal and given the
(43:24):
imperfections now that we hopeto continue to perfect, I would
say keep this vision in front ofyou and never quit.
Keep going, no matter what, anddoors will open that you never
dreamed would open and victorieswill happen that you never
(43:44):
dreamed would happen.
I tell our staff a big shot isnothing but a little shot.
Who kept on shooting?
And so endurance is really.
I would say get the vision deepin your soul, dedicate yourself
and all that you are and allthat you have to that vision and
don't quit, because there's noother reason on this planet that
(44:08):
I'm here than for this purpose.
Kurt Elder (44:12):
Just tying this in when we think about the work
that it takes to do this,sometimes we rely upon those
waypoints in our life.
Who has been your greatest heroin this work?
Mack McCarter (44:25):
Well, without question a great Quaker,
philosopher, theologian.
I wouldn't be here without himand his name was D Elton
Trueblood, and D Elton Truebloodto my generation of preachers
he was like you know is therereally a Colonel Sanders?
I mean, he was a titan.
(44:47):
He wrote 33 books and he wasthe dean of the chapel at
Stanford and he was Dean of theChapel at Harvard and then ended
up going back to EarlhamCollege, little Quaker College
in Richmond, virginia, and inthe writing of 33 books that had
to do everything from textbooksto biographies et cetera, it
(45:10):
was Elton Trueblood that ignitedmy hope in the reading of his
books the Incendiary Fellowship,the Company of the Committed,
and Elton was saying back in1944, his first big book was
called the Predicament of Modernman and in it he called America
a cut flower civilization.
(45:30):
That became very famous andwhat he meant by that was you
cut a flower away from its roots, you put it in water in a vase
and it looks good for a littlewhile, but then it will fade.
This was in 1944, y'all.
And so Elton came to Shreveport.
I was a pastor and I'd read hisbooks and he came to Shreveport
(45:53):
in 1977.
He was 77 years old at the timeI was 32 and I thought he was
older than dirt.
And here I am.
Here, I am two years older, I'mrepenting like crazy.
And so he came and spent a weekwith my parents and I flew down
(46:14):
to be with my hero of heroes.
You stop and think whoever yourhero is, and you get to spend a
week with them in your home.
It was an astonishing thing.
I flew down on Sunday.
I got there late, I didn't meethim.
He had already gone to bed.
The next morning I could hearhim downstairs talking to a
small group of people and Ihurried down to be in his
(46:38):
presence and I had been thinkingthe whole time my gosh, what do
I say to impress my hero?
You know I'm 32, going to makemy bones, etc.
There he is with this deep,deep, resonant voice.
And one of the things that hesaid when I sat down was the
American church is doing manygood things, but it is not
(47:02):
stopping the disintegration ofour society and we have to find
a way effectively to do this.
And that was my one big momenton stage which I seized and I
wish I hadn't.
I seized and I said to him yes,dr Trueblood, we live in a sick
(47:22):
society and y'all, I should havewarned you, if you're looking
for anything smarter from me,that's about as smart as I could
get and to be impressive.
And he leaned forward and hesaid young man, what do you mean
by?
And I thought he was going tosay sick?
So I was ready to give thislitany of dysfunction, but he
did.
He said what do you mean bysociety?
(47:45):
I went as blank as a whiteboardand I went well, you know, dr
Trubel, that's just too deep forwords.
And he leaned even farther inand he said young man, don't
ever tell me, anything is toodeep for words.
If you can't say it, you don'tknow it.
And I went down in flames infront of my hero in two minutes.
(48:08):
I'd forgotten that he hadgotten his Ph, gotten his PhD in
linguistic analysis at JohnsHopkins, and he put his arm
around me that week and he saidI want to come to Hereford.
And we walked together for 17years.
And it was actually Elton thatsent me the 12 volumes of
Toynbee, a study of history,where I read in the third volume
(48:31):
, as he was hoping I would, thedefinition of society.
What do you mean by society?
Well, dr Trueblood.
It's a system of relationships,and so it was Elton that
fathered me and birthed me intothis work.
Stephanie Rouse (48:50):
So you brought up Elton and Toynbee as two
authors that have beeninfluential.
Are there any other books thatyou would recommend our audience
?
Mack McCarter (49:00):
Lewis Mumford was also on the cover of Time
Magazine in 1938.
One of his great books wascalled the Culture of Cities and
if you want to understand thecity and you don't read Mumford,
then you're leaving yourselfout short.
Mumford's great work was in1961, called the City in History
(49:21):
, Its Nature.
He wrote a book in the early50s called the Transformations
of man, which I read every year.
It's that important and thatgood.
In fact I don't read any bookon sociology.
(49:42):
I look at the index.
They're not quoting Mumford.
I don't read it.
He never got a college degreebut taught at MIT, A seminal
thinker, unbelievable.
So I would recommend Mumford.
I would recommend Toynbee, ofcourse, A Study of History.
A great two-volume work is byAlbert Schweitzer, the physician
(50:04):
who was Nobel Peace Prizewinner.
He wrote a two-volume workcalled the Philosophy of
Civilization, which is vitallyimportant to understand that
civilization is not based ongadgetry, it's based on morality
.
You can have a Stone Agegadgetry, but a caring group,
and they're more civilized thanthose that use technology to
(50:28):
make gas chambers.
I would just throw those folksout.
You know, as a beginning thereare many, many more.
Stephanie Rouse (50:36):
Yeah, those are all really great
recommendations and, as planners, I don't think you can get out
of a planning school withoutlearning about Lewis Mumford and
some of his early works.
Mack McCarter (50:45):
Oh, good, I'm delighted to hear about that.
That's wonderful.
Stephanie Rouse (50:51):
Well, Mac, thank you again for joining us
on the show to talk about yourbook how to Remake the World,
Neighborhood by Neighborhood.
Mack McCarter (50:57):
Well, I'm delighted just to be here with
y'all, so let's go forth to makea new world.
Jennifer Hiatt (51:07):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with
author Mac McCarter on his bookhow to Remake the World,
neighborhood by Neighborhood.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at Orbis
Books or click the link in theshow notes to take you directly
to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts and please rate, reviewand share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
(51:27):
Booked on Planning.
Thank you for joining.
We wanted to take a moment to thank our
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You're listening to the Bookedon Planning podcast, a project
of the Nebraska chapter of theAmerican Planning Association.
(00:45):
In each episode we dive intohow cities function, by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
(01:06):
Planning.
In this episode we talk withauthor Mac McArthur on his book
how to Remake the World,neighborhood by Neighborhood.
This episode we have a guestco-host who, if you're a
longtime listener of the show,you may recognize from our GIS
episode in Season 1.
Kurt Elder personally knows Macand spent a month living down
in Shreveport, louisiana,learning from Mac, which is
where the ideas for this booktook root.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:28):
This was such a lovely and uplifting
conversation, reminding everyonethat caring for yourself and
your neighbors and yourcommunity can make such a big
difference.
I love the conversation with somuch optimism and I hope that
you do too.
Stephanie Rouse (01:39):
One thing listeners will pick up on pretty
quickly is Mac's passion andcommitment to creating a world
of caring individuals, oneindividual at a time.
He even mentions at one pointthat this was the reason he was
put on this earth to see thiswork through.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:52):
It's a bit of a longer episode.
So let's get into ourconversation with author Mac
McCarter on his book how toRemake the World, neighborhood
by Neighborhood.
Stephanie Rouse (02:02):
Mac, thank you for joining us on Booked Up
Planning to talk about your bookhow to Remake the World,
Neighborhood by Neighborhood.
The book is founded on thestory of how connecting people
who care for one another hastransformed entire neighborhoods
.
Can you talk about where thefoundation for this idea that
positive relationships willimprove decaying neighborhoods
came from?
Mack McCarter (02:22):
I am glad to do it, and, stephanie, it's
wonderful to be with you andJennifer and Kurt, and I'm
honored to be a part of this.
I pastored churches for about18 years, and my major in
seminary was actually under afellow from Lincoln, nebraska,
and he was one of the threefounders of the discipline of
(02:44):
pastoral psychology.
The whole idea is pastors docounseling, but they haven't
been trained.
This was in the early 1940s,and so he went back to
University of Nebraska and got aPhD in psychology and then
applied that to the pastorshipand it became a discipline
that's now in every seminary,and so he was my major professor
(03:07):
.
If a pastor is not a physicianof relationships, I don't know
what pastors are supposed to bedoing, how we relate to one
another and how we relate to God, and so therefore, with about
16,000 hours of counselingpremarital counseling, marital
counseling, friends that beginto hit a rocky road, folks that
(03:29):
had problems with their faithall had a relational base, and
so the one thing that Iunderstood very clearly is that
relationships, humanrelationships have rules, and
those rules are just asineluctable as the laws of
gravity, and there are certainthings you have to do to be
(03:49):
friends, and there are certainthings you must not do, Certain
things you have to say, certainthings you shouldn't say, but
we'll screw up.
That's another rule.
And therefore another rule iswe have to confess that and then
we have to forgive that and werepair the relationships that
have been broken.
And so I literally was trainedin that.
(04:10):
And when I picked up the thirdvolume of Arnold Toynbee, who
had decided in the early 30sthat we have to study
civilization and make a scienceout of studying civilization,
and that had really never takenplace, it had been chronicled
but never studied as a science.
(04:32):
So Toynbee undertook a journeycalled A Study of History, which
was 12 volumes from the early30s up until the 60s.
The 12th volume was written andliterally analyzed.
He picked out the leadingcivilizations in American
history I mean in world historyand compared and contrasted
those.
(04:52):
As a matter of fact, he becamevery famous in the 40s.
They had his picture on Timemagazine and his statement about
civilization is the epitaph ofall civilizations is suicide.
We have never grown acivilization that actually gets
better and better and better andbetter.
Every civilization we havegrown has begun, started,
(05:15):
flourished, then began todecline, decay and then collapse
, every single one.
And Lewis Mumford, incredibleauthor and thinker, said that
the chief enigma of all ofhistory is why do we keep
collapsing the societies that weconstruct?
We've done it over and over andone of the reasons is is we're
kind of like fish born in anocean, and that is, they don't
(05:37):
think about the ocean, they juststart swimming.
And when we have society aroundus, we don't think about it how
it got there, what we have todo to sustain it, et cetera.
We just go to work, we get ourdegrees, we just keep working.
So this is a long way around ofsaying which I always give, the
long way around of saying thatwhen I read that third volume in
(06:00):
Toynbee and Toynbee actuallydefined civilization that moment
was October the 27th 1981.
And I was in my study and I readthe words society is a system
of relationships, I literallystood straight up when I read
that.
I went my gosh.
(06:21):
If that's what society is as amatter of fact, I've got chills
right now thinking about it.
If that's what society andcivilization is, that if we
could obey the rules of arelationship.
I watched married couples thatwere so distraught and I watched
(06:52):
friends who were so broken intheir friendship.
I literally watched them behealed if they obeyed the rules
you know and were willing toinvest themselves into the big
rule what do we share togetherin common?
All relationships are based uponthat, and so, consequently, in
(07:12):
our friendships, we know how tomake friendships, we know how to
repair friendships, butsometimes we need a physician to
help us in those things.
And so, consequently, I said,if we can take those rules and
then find a way tosystematically restore the
relational connectedness andrelational foundation, then we
(07:36):
can be used in the healing ofthe brokenness of our world.
We only have one world.
There's no lifeboat off thisworld, and we had better learn
to live together in this one bighouse that we've got, or we
literally are looking at thedestruction of our entire
species and that, I know, ismuch larger than the
(07:59):
neighborhoods.
But we have to think of theworld as one big neighborhood.
And then we have to get down tothe micro and say, okay, we
need to grow a model that canactually take the rules of
relationships and walk those outin the streets of a city and
begin to have that model andthen replicate that model on
(08:23):
reconnecting folks together inrelationships, but do it
systematically, and then we'vegot something that will be very,
very powerful.
I might add one other thingvery quickly Remember that
relationships are only formed bywhat we share together in
common.
That's how we buildrelationships.
(08:43):
We cannot start with ourindividual uniqueness and guard
that and expect to have arelationship that will grow.
What do we share together incommon?
I said human beings sharetogether in common, and this is
before all the physiologicalevidence came in.
We share in common the capacityto care for each other.
(09:06):
We've got over 8 billion peopleon this planet.
We are hardwired to care.
All of the science is now there.
When I started we didn't havethat science, but we have the
capacity to care.
So let's devote ourselves towhat we share in common.
Let's celebrate our uniquenessourselves to what we share in
(09:27):
common.
Let's celebrate our uniqueness,but let's devote ourselves to
that, and so that's the genesisof this model.
Jennifer Hiatt (09:31):
I found it very interesting that you very
intentionally use the wordcaring in the book instead of
love.
You know we're taught to loveour neighbor, but instead you
talk about the caring aspect.
So can you explain why you feltit was really important to make
that linguistic choice?
Mack McCarter (09:47):
Thanks, jennifer, because that's a great question
.
I did use caring because whenyou say love, it takes people A
to a place of intimacy that isfrightening to them to say you
know, I don't really know you,how can I love you?
But I can care about you, andso it makes the threshold of
(10:07):
entry lower for us and it canease our way into this idea that
I'm here to care for each andevery and all human beings.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is you listento a song that says I danced
with you and knew that I wouldlove you forever.
That's great.
That happens, you know, once,probably in an eon, the word
(10:32):
love and even the concept oflove has been cheapened to an
attraction level, and of coursewe know that it's much deeper
than that.
And the word agape is not afeeling, it is a commitment to
seek the good of the other justas you seek your own good.
(10:53):
And, trust me, no matter whatwe think or say or what our
inner voices say, we're going toseek our own good, period.
I just have to know that mygood rests in seeking your good,
and when I can make thattransfer, then it really
redirects my life in a wonderfuland fulfilling way.
(11:13):
I'm not seeking my own goodActually, that's always there
but it's been judoed intoknowing that my good rests in
you and your well-being.
And when we can then go fromour own little family and our
own race and our own church andour own nation and understand
that that's true for all homosapiens, that then we have the
(11:37):
worldview that can be healingfor our world.
Kurt Elder (11:40):
This foundational relationship model of community
development has expanded intoother institutionalized settings
throughout your we Care Schoolseffort.
How is the work that you do inthe community different than
what you do in the schools?
Mack McCarter (11:54):
Port Kurt.
I went back to Shreveport and Isaid, okay, I've counseled
individuals and couples.
Now how in the world do we makethat practically applicable to
(12:14):
the 300,000 people in the metroaround Shreveport and Bossier
City and in Louisiana, I mightadd?
So how in the world do we dothat?
And again, what came to me wasthe vision of a swimming pool.
How do you make an unhealthypool healthy enough to swim in?
You watch these lifeguards.
They'll dip down their testtube and they'll look at it and
they'll go okay, it's healthy,y'all can swim.
(12:35):
Or we need to add this or addthat.
And so what hit me was we haveto know one thing how do we
clean one molecule of H2O?
If we don't know how to cleanone molecule of H2O, then we'll
never be able to clean that pool, no matter how elaborate we get
.
But if that's all we know, wecan't clean the pool.
(12:58):
Now, unfortunately, we've alljumped in the water and we're
madly cleaning molecules.
You know, you get everybody inthere and we're cleaning
molecules and we can provestatistically that, hey, we're
making all kinds of improvements.
I came from a church background.
I could say last year we had 50baptisms, this year 100
baptisms.
But the pool isn't gettingclean, and so, as a matter of
(13:22):
fact, there are arguments thatit is going the other way.
So somebody a lot smarter thanme invented a system that we
call a swimming pool filter.
That literally takes thereactive process of cleaning
molecules, puts it into a systemand brings in billions of
molecules at once and runs themout.
And if you get the ratio ofvolume and velocity fast enough,
(13:46):
we have the technology, andthat's the reason I call
community renewal a socialtechnology.
We have the technology to cleanpools.
We can now clean practicallyanything.
The astronauts well, I won'tmention what they can clean and
drink, but we now have anincredible technology to do that
(14:06):
.
And so, kurt, stop and think ofall of these identifiable
things in society, theirinstitutions, their
organizations, their groups,their businesses, government,
but all of those are inhabitedby what?
By people.
And so, therefore, there is themolecular that is common
(14:30):
throughout everything, if we'regoing to take those fundamental
truths on building relationshipsand put those to work and make
those primary.
When we make our relationalfoundation primary, it's never
secondary, it is never a meansto something, it is the end in
itself.
(14:51):
How we treat and care for oneanother.
The we Care Schools is a greatexample.
Has her doctorate because shewrote her dissertation on what
happened at UniversityElementary in Shreveport,
louisiana, and how it wastransformed.
The University Elementary wasbuilt for 400 kids.
(15:12):
They've got 1,200 in it andit's the most cosmopolitan
school in Shreveport.
Many different languages arespoken there.
So anyway, over 700 referrals tothe principal's office.
Once they put a system therethat made caring for each other
that involved the principal, theteachers, the janitors and the
(15:33):
kids, they had 27 referrals lastyear.
All of their test scores havegone up.
It was all as a result of theprimacy of caring relationships.
They literally found a way tomove that relational dedication
throughout the classroom, therecess, everything.
(15:53):
They made it the number onepriority.
So I'm going to answer thequestion by saying if a bank
makes that the number onepriority, if your corporation
makes that the number onepriority, if that's the number
one priority, if yourcorporation makes that the
number one priority, if that'sthe number one priority not just
to care for each other but tocare for one another that
becomes that all-inclusive anduniversal touch that touches the
(16:16):
fundamental part of being human.
That now is the entire pool ofhumanity, is the entire pool of
humanity.
The key is to do it in anintentional way.
Think of strategies, then, thatnow go into universities, that
now go into businesses, etcetera, and then figure these
(16:37):
ways out to systematically do it.
I can't figure out forbusinesses how they may carry
for one another in their companyand outside of their company
what they need to do to makethat priority.
But business people can, and ifthey're dedicated to that, then
we have now ignited them andthat joins us together.
Stephanie Rouse (16:58):
Speaking of finding caring people you point
out in the book, it's prettyeasy to find caring people after
a catastrophic event like ahurricane or in the case in
Lincoln a month or so ago we hada really bad windstorm and had
massive amounts of tree branchesdown.
And you go outside and justneighbors were coming together
helping clear roads and so it'seasy in those situations.
(17:18):
But we have so many systemicissues like homelessness that is
just happening over a longerperiod of time.
How do you find the caringpeople for those kinds of
situations?
Mack McCarter (17:28):
First thing to recognize is that every single
human being is hardwired to care, every single one.
I used to exclude psychopathicpersonalities, I mean due to my
background.
I thought, well, psychopathscannot fit in that.
But psychopaths will even docaring acts within their
(17:51):
particular realm, and I've nevermet a psychopathic baby.
And so, consequently, we're allhardwired to join together in
caring, and physiologically, and, as I said, all the proof is
there.
So the first thing to realizeis because we're hardwired to do
that, everyone is a caringperson.
(18:13):
It isn't like we're not caring.
Here's the conundrum how in theworld can an entire species,
given our DNA, which was formedby recognizing, if we don't help
each other I'm talking about inthe early days of entering onto
the savanna, coming out of theforest if we don't hang together
(18:37):
, we're gone.
In fact, if you got separatedfrom the group of these fragile
hominids, you die period.
And so we're hardwired to betogether and all of our
physiology is enhanced when wecome together.
In fact, they've provenserotonin, which enhances our
(18:58):
immune system.
Serotonin goes up when youreceive a caring act.
Somebody does an act ofkindness to you.
Your serotonin goes up when youdo a caring act.
Your serotonin goes up when youdo a caring act, your serotonin
goes up.
When you see a caring act, yourserotonin goes up.
When you even hear about acaring act, your serotonin level
(19:20):
goes up.
That's all hard science.
So, consequently, stop andthink we are caring.
But here we are, as a specieson the verge of the possibility
of self-annihilation.
Now, how do you have a specieswhere over 8 billion people are
hardwired to care for each otherand we're hanging by a nuclear
(19:42):
thread of completeself-annihilation as a species?
You know that doesn't even makesense.
What has happened is it isn'tthat we aren't caring, it's
because we care randomly.
Random acts of caring will notcure our world.
Or we just care for those closearound us, or we're just caring
(20:03):
for our race, or we're justcaring for our nation All of
these ways of caring and we'reinvisible and we're not caring
together.
So we haven't created apowerful public army of folks
who are intentionally dedicatedto caring.
I tell about the guy that getson the airplane at Los Angeles
(20:25):
and he's flying to New York Cityand he starts acting like the
fool and they have to duct tapethe guy to his chair in the
airplane and they divert theflight and they land in Denver
and it's on the evening news.
Well, he just flew overmillions and millions of human
beings like you and me, who areout there cleaning the streets
(20:47):
Stephanie, after a storm who areout there doing this.
We're invisible because we'renormal.
We don't make news, and so theanomalies of human behavior are
amplified on the evening newsbecause these guys are not
normal, therefore they're news.
And so then we start thinkingwell, that's the way the
normality is, and we get afraid.
(21:09):
But actually the normal thingis all of these caring people
that are not making the news.
And that's the reality.
And what happens withcatastrophe is that surfaces us
and we become news because wesee our goodness revealed.
9-11 didn't change the peoplein New York City.
(21:29):
It revealed them.
It revealed these caring things.
So how do we deal with endemicproblems?
Because a catastrophe is anacute situation, but there are
chronic situations within humansociety and that is where, when
we make our caring intentionaland systematic and we make it
(21:52):
corporate, then we come with thesolutions to our poor brothers
and sisters who are there on thestreet corners, etc.
When I'm walking down thestreet.
I don't know how to solve that.
All I know how to do is you'veasked me, let me respond in
kindness, but I don't know howto solve your situation.
(22:13):
But when we prioritize and whenwe care together and when we
come forward with corporatesolutions systematically, we can
have folks who will figure outa way to systematically do this.
And I've got to give acommercial because we have what
we call a we Care team, and I'mgoing to just read this card
(22:36):
that I'm lifting up.
It says humanity's highestpurpose is to care together to
make our world a caring familywhere every single human being
is safe, loved and joyfullyfulfilled.
You begin to achieve ourpurpose today by making the we
Care promise.
And the we Care promise is thisknowing that I'm already a
(22:59):
caring person, I promise to carefor all human beings.
Check.
I recognize that caring bymyself will not change the world
.
So I will take my place on thewe Care team and join with all
others who have made thispromise Check.
I will now do my part inachieving our purpose by
inviting my family and friendsto join with me in the we Care
(23:21):
promise.
Check.
And this isn't joiningcommunity renewal.
I'm not here to get a greatnonprofit.
That's crazy.
We have to heal this world andthat's the fundamental challenge
that is before us.
We only have two challenges.
We have a lot of problems.
There are only two challenges.
One is we've got to have a veryhealthy planet Earth.
(23:44):
If we don't have a healthyplanet Earth, we all go down.
A very healthy planet Earth.
If we don't have a healthyplanet Earth, we all go down.
The second is we've neverconstructed a global society
that literally grows and getsbetter and better and better
through caring for one another.
And unless we do that, theamazing thing is, the primary
challenge of a healthy planetcan only be answered by
(24:04):
investing ourselves in thesecondary challenge and that is
all coming together in thehealing of our planet.
Jennifer Hiatt (24:18):
Because we can get everybody in, but if China
doesn't join we're going tostill get a sick planet and to
the end of Finding Caring Peopleand the systems that you
mentioned in trying to createthat system, the book discusses
the idea of six basicmanifestations of growing as a
human being, which we all needto do.
Mack McCarter (24:39):
So what are these ?
And how can we all grow ashuman beings?
Since we need to, we have whatwe call the five questions, and
the five questions are what kindof world do we need to be the
best human being that we can be?
And then we ask what kind ofsociety makes possible that kind
of world?
Or you could say what kind ofchurch, or you could say what
kind of business, et cetera.
The third question is what kindof person makes possible that
(25:01):
kind of society that makespossible that kind of world?
The fourth is what kind ofenvironment makes possible that
kind of person?
And the is what kind ofenvironment makes possible that
kind of person?
And the fifth is what do wehave to do to make that
environment, to make that person, to make that society, make
that world?
And so we start with the thirdquestion, because we have to
look at what kind of person arewe seeking?
(25:23):
Because everything hinges onthat.
And we say a whole person.
And a whole person is a personwho is competent and
compassionate.
In our lingo, it means growingas a human being.
Competency equals growing andcompassion equals giving.
How do we need to grow and thereare only six ways that human
(25:46):
beings can grow.
We grow physically, and we'vegot to grow on our own
nourishment.
And the second thing is we growintellectually.
The third is we growemotionally.
I'm different than I was when Iwas two my wife doesn't believe
that all the time, but I am andthen we grow skillfully.
I drive around up here inWashington DC.
(26:09):
I couldn't do that when I wasthree.
And we grow in life skills.
We grow socially.
You know you always say aboutkids now you got to learn to get
along.
And then we also growspiritually.
Now what that means is notjumping over pews in a church
and throwing hymn books becauseyou get all excited.
What that means is is therecognition that there is more
(26:33):
here than me, myself and I.
When we recognize that, it putsus on the way to spiritual
growth.
And consequently, that begins,jennifer, to begin to help us,
to intentionally begin to walkinto wholeness.
And the astonishing thing is wecannot grow in any of those
(26:55):
areas alone.
I mean, you might think wecould.
The only thing that we do byourselves is we pass away
Everything else.
Is critical to understand thatonly by entering into what we
call positive relationshipsY'all.
There are negativerelationships and those can kill
(27:16):
you, but a positiverelationship is that which grows
us under.
The idea is that we'recommitted to one another and to
seeking one another's good.
There's a lot of improvementand it's a lifetime in that
journey, but it is a journeythat literally makes us people,
and that's what it means to dothat.
(27:36):
Well, I started preaching again, but I'm excited.
Kurt Elder (27:40):
Community Renewal International has developed a
methodology to break down theorganization into its component
elements and derive how theactivities affect an
individual's competency andcompassion, which then leads to
shifts in the community, Thingsthat we've been talking about.
How have your results?
You know, lower crime rates,better connected, among others.
(28:01):
How have those resultsinfluenced or impacted budgetary
support at the local level,that's?
Mack McCarter (28:08):
a great question.
You know people say what's yourdevelopment strategy?
And I say we're hoping to winPowerball and, you know, mega
Millions.
That's kind of our strategy.
No, I'm teasing Kurt.
I had a wonderful dear friendnamed Millard Fuller.
Millard and Linda foundedHabitat for Humanity.
(28:30):
Millard would always say, toget them into a home and have
home ownership for the firsttime, and the money is in your
(28:51):
pocket.
I can't throw enough money atyou.
That's fabulous and I followyou on the stage.
Well, mac, what are you doing?
Well, we're rebuilding therelational foundation in order
to restore, you know, the wholesystem of civilization, in order
to restore, you know, the wholesystem of civilization, and
that's about as exciting aswatching the guacamole dip turn
(29:12):
black at a party.
So this has been a real, realstruggle.
To tell you the truth, becausewhen we started CURD, the whole
vision came in 1981.
And then, when I moved toShreveport in 91, to really
really put this on the ground,we had what we call the
Tupperware strategy.
(29:32):
I had a lot of friends and theywould throw parties and I'd
share a vision because we didn'thave a model that actually
would show.
You know, that if we didrebuild intentionally the
relational foundation andreconnect folks together, that
that would then flow like leaveninto every phase of our
(29:54):
community.
And so I literally started alsowith the business community,
saying if Shreveportdisintegrates it's not good for
your business.
And so trying to help people tosee that if we could go forth
in this grand experiment itwasn't that grand at the time,
you know just this grandexperiment.
(30:15):
Then it lifted all of the ships, because it's the fundamental
nature of the ocean in which weswim.
If we can restore the health ofthis ocean we call society,
everyone benefits.
So in those years we didn't havea model and we didn't have a
lot of the evidence that is nowcatching on.
(30:37):
And it was very, very difficultto get funding except through
folks, mostly on the individuallevel.
And then Robert Wood Johnsoncame in because they said after
10 years they came to us andthey said we have all the
evidence to show that, a ifyou're in a good relationship.
(31:00):
C it means that you will havegood health.
But we don't have the B how todo that on a societal basis?
And we believe y'all do.
And they did something they'dnever done before and that is
they hired a five team group,different disciplines.
It was headed by the guy thatwas the head at the time of the
(31:21):
School of Public Health atTulane.
They spent a year with us andtheir report back to Robert Wood
Johnson said not only can thisbe evaluated and measured yes,
it can, but it needs to be anational program.
And that was their conclusion.
And then they changed CEOs andthat report was put on the shelf
(31:44):
.
And so, anyway, the shift thatwe've experienced since 2016 is
a real understanding of thecritical nature of the
relational foundation and I callit relational foundation and
infrastructure.
Everyone now is talking aboutthat.
(32:05):
We're talking about lonelinessbeing an epidemic.
That's all coming.
So, while we have had a toughtime showing what we're seeking
to show because they call itindeed this is the way of the
future and you've got to takethis into account Simply in the
(32:33):
act itself becomes the result.
Our process is our product.
The product is is a world offriendship.
Well, the process is makingfriends, and that's why I tell
people up here.
I said I want the whole worldand, kurt, I'll tell you, buddy,
I want the whole world to befriends like you and our friends
(32:54):
.
It's all a way of saying it'sreally hard to raise money on
this.
Stephanie Rouse (33:02):
Well, speaking of making the whole world
friends.
The book really focuses a loton examples from Shreveport, but
you referenced that thisconcept has appeared in other
communities and other countries.
How do you take these kind ofconcepts and scale them to
national level, internationallevel and get buy-in in other
communities?
Mack McCarter (33:22):
I have a friend who is the chairman of our
National Advisory Board.
Who is the chairman of ourNational Advisory Board?
He's from Shreveport and hisname is John Dalton, and John
was the Secretary of the Navyunder President Clinton for five
years outstanding.
And John told me, mac, we needto move the model to Washington
DC.
He said in Washington, everysingle nation is represented
(33:46):
here in Washington and they'renot going to come to Shreveport
to see the model, so we've gotto stand it up here.
At the ripe age of 68, I movedto Washington in 2013 to start
all over, and so what we'redoing in Washington is put the
model in place and then begin tohave people see that and then
(34:08):
take that to their nations.
Just this year, we've got anincredible thing happening in
Slovakia, for instance, and allkinds of things happening in
Ethiopia, and the person who wasthe first woman chief justice
in Ethiopia and the only chiefjustice just joined the WeCare
(34:30):
team last week.
She's got 6,000 lawyers underher.
And we've got incredible workgoing on in Cameroon since 2005,
the nation of Cameroon.
We've got WeCare schools inCameroon, we've got an
International House ofFriendships there, we've got
(34:51):
country initiatives happeningall over there and we've started
Africa Community Renewal people.
And this is so important,stephanie, because people say,
well, how does this happen?
You have to expose people to avision of what the world should
(35:13):
be and what the world needs tobe, and you've got to be able to
show one day there will be nomore weeping and tears, one day
we will be kind to every singleone of us, there will be no more
war, and so that's the visionof a loving family, and that
vision, slash, has to be yourpurpose.
(35:36):
We have to have that.
And then we have to show aclear pathway how to get there.
And then we have to have afellowship to walk together and
grow this seed of dedicatedpeople into the entire
environment.
And so, consequently, when westart with sharing the vision
(35:58):
and showing a pathway, becausepeople are not going to have
their hope ignited, it justbecomes a wish to say, oh, let
there be peace on earth.
That's just a wish, unless youcan show an actual way to get
there.
And, by the way, if you getthree people to join the we Care
team and then retire, and theneach of them get three people to
(36:21):
join the we Care team, one aday for three days, you go say,
okay, join the we Care team, onea day for three days.
You go say, ok, join the weekair team, one a day for three
days.
You got three people.
And then they go get threepeople.
In 61 days You'll have eightbillion seven hundred and twenty
six million nine hundred andsixty thousand nine hundred and
(36:42):
sixty two human beings who havejoined the we Care Team in 61
days.
And so you have to show apathway that leads to the kind
of world where, literally,caring now comes together.
Now we began to see this happen.
It's quiet, but we're buildingthis, stephanie, and we're
(37:04):
leavening like salt and leaven.
That's how we're going Show thevision, attract people to that
vision.
They say, yeah, that's the kindof world I want.
Jennifer Hiatt (37:15):
You mentioned in the book the journey from the
village to the city.
We're city planners, so we'rekind of city oriented.
Back to the village.
And why is it important that were-villageize our society?
Dr Anneke Vandenbroek.
Mack McCarter (37:28):
The village was the vehicle that literally
transformed human beings.
There was a place that somebody, somewhere, that said we ain't
going to follow you to hunt andgather anymore.
You go ahead and hunt andgather, but we're going to stay
(37:48):
here and plant ourselves andwe're going to use this place
that we're now staying and we'regoing to form a womb-like
structure of caring for oneanother.
That literally can changeeverything, and it did.
The village probably goes backwe have evidence, archaeological
(38:08):
evidence about 14,000 years,but I think goes back farther
than that, and the village wasthis supporting collective of
human beings and they learned tolive together in a common sense
and it literally transformedthe human race.
So what I did is I went backand studied ontology what are
(38:31):
the basic elements of thevillage, with the idea that what
has happened to us one of thegreat examples is when I grew up
on planet Earth, I lived in thesame neighborhood my whole life
and I still jog down thatneighborhood.
I can tell you where everysingle person lived, every one
of them.
I could name them.
The neighborhood was like myvillage.
(38:52):
We had that kind of corporatestructure that made it possible
for me to grow up with someguardrails and with some sense
of how we have to act together.
And now what's happened?
What's happened is we can emailpeople all over the world and
we don't know who's living anddying four houses down from us
(39:16):
or four apartments away.
We might wave at them, but wedon't know them and we've gotten
disconnected.
And we have to intentionallyget reconnected because
disconnection brings dysfunctionperiod and all the accompanying
disabilities that come withthat loneliness, meaninglessness
(39:36):
, depression, we can name allthat.
And so consequently, there hasto be the intentional coming
together with those elements.
The eight elements are safetyand security.
You found that in the village,safety is environmental,
security is psychological,meaningful work, a way to
(39:57):
transmit knowledge and wisdom.
That's education.
Then you had a healthcaredelivery system with the
medicine man, you had dwellingsthat folks lived in, you had
leadership and you had mutuallyenhancing relationships.
And that's the part that webring.
And so, consequently, withsafety, security, then health
(40:22):
care, and then dwellings andeducation and work and
leadership, and then all tiedtogether with mutually enhancing
relationships.
So if we can do that, then wecan now go to literally go bite
by bite and reconnect our citiesgeographically where you live.
We've got to get grounded.
(40:42):
In that way we can reach out tothe world and touch the world,
but we've got to touch oneanother.
Kurt Elder (40:50):
If you could go back in time and give advice to a
younger you on the journey thatyou were about to start, what
advice would you tell yourself?
And is that the same advice youwould give or offer other
champions who are ready to pickup this work in their own
communities?
Mack McCarter (41:08):
Well, it's been such a pilgrimage, kurt, that if
I have gained any insights andany wisdom, it has been through,
you know, making the journey.
The only thing that I can say,I mean there are so many things,
Look, as the folks that reallyreally know me well know as a
(41:28):
matter of fact.
I'll tell you this story.
One of my dear friends is a guynamed Larry Faulkner, and Larry
and I grew up together andLarry became the president of
the University of Texas, and soI'm with Larry in his office and
Larry looks at me and he saysMackie, you have really, really
helped my belief in God.
And I said well, larry, that'sreally great.
(41:51):
He was filling out his we Careteam card and he said, yeah, he
said this is so important and sopowerful, this whole idea of
coming together, it could notpossibly have come from you.
I know you.
Therefore, there has to be aGod, there has to be a God, and
(42:17):
so the folks that know me wellknow what a numb Skolinski I am,
and so, therefore, the wholething has to do with seeing that
the one purpose for which wemust all live is the purpose of
caring together to make ourwhole world a caring family
where every single person can besafe and loved and joyfully
(42:38):
fulfilled.
Now, in that process, I wouldsay to a young me and to a young
everyone you still have to makethe journey.
We're learning how to do this.
There are things that we couldbe more efficient at.
I mean, if you came and reallydid an analysis of Community
Renewal International, you couldtake the blue pen and I'll fill
(43:01):
out a whole tablet for you,because, given the goal of
coming together and loving oneanother on this planet and
treasuring one another, giventhat goal and given the
(43:24):
imperfections now that we hopeto continue to perfect, I would
say keep this vision in front ofyou and never quit.
Keep going, no matter what, anddoors will open that you never
dreamed would open and victorieswill happen that you never
(43:44):
dreamed would happen.
I tell our staff a big shot isnothing but a little shot.
Who kept on shooting?
And so endurance is really.
I would say get the vision deepin your soul, dedicate yourself
and all that you are and allthat you have to that vision and
don't quit, because there's noother reason on this planet that
(44:08):
I'm here than for this purpose.
Kurt Elder (44:12):
Just tying this in when we think about the work
that it takes to do this,sometimes we rely upon those
waypoints in our life.
Who has been your greatest heroin this work?
Mack McCarter (44:25):
Well, without question a great Quaker,
philosopher, theologian.
I wouldn't be here without himand his name was D Elton
Trueblood, and D Elton Truebloodto my generation of preachers
he was like you know is therereally a Colonel Sanders?
I mean, he was a titan.
(44:47):
He wrote 33 books and he wasthe dean of the chapel at
Stanford and he was Dean of theChapel at Harvard and then ended
up going back to EarlhamCollege, little Quaker College
in Richmond, virginia, and inthe writing of 33 books that had
to do everything from textbooksto biographies et cetera, it
(45:10):
was Elton Trueblood that ignitedmy hope in the reading of his
books the Incendiary Fellowship,the Company of the Committed,
and Elton was saying back in1944, his first big book was
called the Predicament of Modernman and in it he called America
a cut flower civilization.
(45:30):
That became very famous andwhat he meant by that was you
cut a flower away from its roots, you put it in water in a vase
and it looks good for a littlewhile, but then it will fade.
This was in 1944, y'all.
And so Elton came to Shreveport.
I was a pastor and I'd read hisbooks and he came to Shreveport
(45:53):
in 1977.
He was 77 years old at the timeI was 32 and I thought he was
older than dirt.
And here I am.
Here, I am two years older, I'mrepenting like crazy.
And so he came and spent a weekwith my parents and I flew down
(46:14):
to be with my hero of heroes.
You stop and think whoever yourhero is, and you get to spend a
week with them in your home.
It was an astonishing thing.
I flew down on Sunday.
I got there late, I didn't meethim.
He had already gone to bed.
The next morning I could hearhim downstairs talking to a
small group of people and Ihurried down to be in his
(46:38):
presence and I had been thinkingthe whole time my gosh, what do
I say to impress my hero?
You know I'm 32, going to makemy bones, etc.
There he is with this deep,deep, resonant voice.
And one of the things that hesaid when I sat down was the
American church is doing manygood things, but it is not
(47:02):
stopping the disintegration ofour society and we have to find
a way effectively to do this.
And that was my one big momenton stage which I seized and I
wish I hadn't.
I seized and I said to him yes,dr Trueblood, we live in a sick
(47:22):
society and y'all, I should havewarned you, if you're looking
for anything smarter from me,that's about as smart as I could
get and to be impressive.
And he leaned forward and hesaid young man, what do you mean
by?
And I thought he was going tosay sick?
So I was ready to give thislitany of dysfunction, but he
did.
He said what do you mean bysociety?
(47:45):
I went as blank as a whiteboardand I went well, you know, dr
Trubel, that's just too deep forwords.
And he leaned even farther inand he said young man, don't
ever tell me, anything is toodeep for words.
If you can't say it, you don'tknow it.
And I went down in flames infront of my hero in two minutes.
(48:08):
I'd forgotten that he hadgotten his Ph, gotten his PhD in
linguistic analysis at JohnsHopkins, and he put his arm
around me that week and he saidI want to come to Hereford.
And we walked together for 17years.
And it was actually Elton thatsent me the 12 volumes of
Toynbee, a study of history,where I read in the third volume
(48:31):
, as he was hoping I would, thedefinition of society.
What do you mean by society?
Well, dr Trueblood.
It's a system of relationships,and so it was Elton that
fathered me and birthed me intothis work.
Stephanie Rouse (48:50):
So you brought up Elton and Toynbee as two
authors that have beeninfluential.
Are there any other books thatyou would recommend our audience
?
Mack McCarter (49:00):
Lewis Mumford was also on the cover of Time
Magazine in 1938.
One of his great books wascalled the Culture of Cities and
if you want to understand thecity and you don't read Mumford,
then you're leaving yourselfout short.
Mumford's great work was in1961, called the City in History
(49:21):
, Its Nature.
He wrote a book in the early50s called the Transformations
of man, which I read every year.
It's that important and thatgood.
In fact I don't read any bookon sociology.
(49:42):
I look at the index.
They're not quoting Mumford.
I don't read it.
He never got a college degreebut taught at MIT, A seminal
thinker, unbelievable.
So I would recommend Mumford.
I would recommend Toynbee, ofcourse, A Study of History.
A great two-volume work is byAlbert Schweitzer, the physician
(50:04):
who was Nobel Peace Prizewinner.
He wrote a two-volume workcalled the Philosophy of
Civilization, which is vitallyimportant to understand that
civilization is not based ongadgetry, it's based on morality
.
You can have a Stone Agegadgetry, but a caring group,
and they're more civilized thanthose that use technology to
(50:28):
make gas chambers.
I would just throw those folksout.
You know, as a beginning thereare many, many more.
Stephanie Rouse (50:36):
Yeah, those are all really great
recommendations and, as planners, I don't think you can get out
of a planning school withoutlearning about Lewis Mumford and
some of his early works.
Mack McCarter (50:45):
Oh, good, I'm delighted to hear about that.
That's wonderful.
Stephanie Rouse (50:51):
Well, Mac, thank you again for joining us
on the show to talk about yourbook how to Remake the World,
Neighborhood by Neighborhood.
Mack McCarter (50:57):
Well, I'm delighted just to be here with
y'all, so let's go forth to makea new world.
Jennifer Hiatt (51:07):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with
author Mac McCarter on his bookhow to Remake the World,
neighborhood by Neighborhood.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at Orbis
Books or click the link in theshow notes to take you directly
to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts and please rate, reviewand share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
(51:27):
Booked on Planning.
Thank you for joining.
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