December 10, 2024 • 32 mins
In our latest episode we are joined by Sara Bronin, the brilliant mind behind "Key to the City: How Zoning Shapes Our World." With a blend of historical insight and visionary thinking, Sara navigates the intricate world of zoning, advocating for strategic enhancements rather than radical abolition. Imagine neighborhoods unshackled from outdated regulations, poised for vibrant growth and adaptability. Discover how zoning can be a catalyst for cultural resurgence with examples from cities like Nashville and Chicago, and how it addresses (or ignores) environmental challenges in areas like Scottsdale and Tucson. This conversation promises to reshape your understanding of zoning's potential as we explore how zoning transcends private domains to revolutionize public spaces.
Show Notes:
- To help support the show, pick up a copy of the book through our Amazon Affiliates page at https://amzn.to/491LWOJ or even better, get a copy through your local bookstore!
- Further Reading:
- America’s Frozen Neighborhoods: The Abuse of Zoning by Robert Elickson
- Arbitrary Lines by Nolan Gray and check out our episode recording with Nolan here.
- The Power Broker by Robert Caro
- The National Zoning Atlas project mentioned by Sara: https://www.zoningatlas.org/
- To view the show transcripts, click on the episode at https://bookedonplanning.buzzsprout.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Rouse (00:12):
you're listening to the booked on
planning podcast, a project ofthe nebraska chapter of the
american planning association.
In each episode, we dive intohow cities function by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
(00:37):
Welcome back, Bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
Planning.
In this episode we talk withauthor Sarah Bronnan on her book
Key to the City how ZoningShapes Our World Back in 2023,.
We talked with author NolanGray on his book Arbitrary Lines
, which makes the case for doingaway with zoning, so it seemed
fitting to talk with Sarah aboutthe opposite approach to amend
our zoning codes to make themwork better.
Jennifer Hiatt (00:59):
As I shared in our episode with Nolan, doing
away entirely with zoning mademe a little uncomfortable, so I
thought Sarah's approach wasmuch more realistic.
It's based on the idea ofloosening the chokehold
regulations can have on theprocess and allowing the
majority of desirable uses byright One topic that I found
really interesting from her bookwas the idea of zoning all of
the city, not just privateproperty.
Stephanie Rouse (01:20):
We struggle often with getting our public
right away to support the ideasin our zoning codes applied to
private property.
We struggle often with gettingour public right-of-way to
support the ideas in our zoningcodes applied to private
property.
The best way to make thishappen is to bring the streets
under the purview of zoning aswell, although I'm not sure how
happy our transportationdepartments would be about this
idea.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:35):
Well, who cares about them?
Anyway, we have a lot ofrespect for our transportation
department and I agree that wasa really great point.
I also found her idea of movingthe formal public input process
to the beginning of the projectquite interesting.
I know we have had someprojects that get derailed at
the last minute because of lateconcerns from the public, and
they were easily addressable,but it would have been great if
we could have learned about themearly on and then incorporated
(01:58):
that feedback into the designprocess.
So let's get into ourconversation with author Sarah
Bronin on Key to the City howZoning Shapes Our World.
Stephanie Rouse (02:08):
Well, Sara, welcome to the Booked on
Planning podcast.
We're happy to have you on totalk about your book, key to the
City, which argues that zoninghas so much potential to support
great cities when done right.
We're also hearing in theprofession calls to abolish
zoning, so what's your responseto the ideas floating around out
there that we should get rid ofzoning altogether?
Sara Bronin (02:28):
Well, first, stephanie and Jennifer, thank
you so much for having me.
I'm so excited about thisconversation and I think you
really got right to the heart ofthe debate about zoning.
That's happening right now inzoning circles, such that they
are, and you do have a group ofpeople that says, well, zoning
is such a huge problem that itshould be abolished.
(02:48):
And I guess I have a couple ofreflections on that approach.
The first is that humans,throughout the course of history
, have always in some form orfashion regulated the way their
communities are organizedthrough land use and building
rules.
So I think, try as we might, weprobably would not get away
(03:09):
from some form of regulation ofour built environment.
The other thing is that, justfrom a political standpoint,
it's highly unlikely that even alocal government maybe a small
local government might, but alarge city that has zoning, or
even a state legislature, wouldsimply say we're done, we give
(03:29):
up, we're just tossing out thecode entirely.
I think it's more likely thatplaces will look to changing
their zoning incrementally or,in some cases, revising their
zoning code in a comprehensiveway.
And those are the opportunities.
Those are things that we seeactually cities doing and even
state legislatures doing.
(03:50):
They're not getting rid ofzoning, they're incrementally
improving it.
So from a practical andpolitical standpoint, I don't
see that the abolition of zoningis in our future.
Maybe that will change, but mybook takes the view that zoning
is here.
It's something we have to workwith.
It has a lot of opportunitiesfor us and if we rethink it we
(04:12):
can actually give ourselves thecommunities we hope for.
Jennifer Hiatt (04:17):
On that note, a term that stuck with me in the
opening chapters of the book waswhat zoning is kind of doing
now which is creating frozenneighborhood syndrome, and I had
never really considered thatzoning is kind of doing now
which is creating frozenneighborhood syndrome, and I had
never really considered thatzoning was causing such an issue
.
But of course it is.
So can you define for ourlisteners what you mean by
frozen neighborhood syndrome andhow zoning perpetuates it?
Sara Bronin (04:35):
So I love this idea .
I would attribute the phrase toBob Ellison, who was my
professor at Yale Law School andwrote a book about America's
frozen neighborhoods and reallyspoke to, I think, what I see in
zoning codes all over thecountry, which is that they were
adopted maybe in 1950, 1960,1970, and then they were just
(04:58):
left there and never reallyrethought.
And so, instead of seeingcommunities evolve as needs
change, as tastes change, wehave neighborhoods that were
really stuck in a very old wayof thinking about development,
of thinking about residentialareas versus commercial areas,
and that has contributed to whatyou can maybe call stagnation
(05:21):
frozen neighborhoods,neighborhoods that really
haven't been allowed to changebecause the zoning constraints
on them have mandated thatdevelopments stay exactly the
same.
We're seeing challengesincluding, by the way, from
COVID, in how we zone and maybethe restrictive nature of so
much American zoning, therestrictive nature meaning, in
(05:42):
this case, single familyneighborhoods with large lots
that we see virtually in everycommunity across the country.
Stephanie Rouse (05:50):
So when we do get communities that are finally
making the code changes thatthey need to to encourage better
neighborhoods and supportcommunity development, we often
struggle with getting from codechange to actual market change.
So we might put something inour ordinances trying to support
more housing development ormore density or active modes of
transportation, but we justdon't see the market respond to
(06:12):
that.
Are there any ways or anyapproaches to code changes that
communities can make that reallyhelp support the market side of
change?
Sara Bronin (06:21):
I think, for communities that have looked at
their zoning codes and reallywanted to see market change in,
you have to provide the marketwith certainty.
(06:47):
One way that zoning codesprovide certainty is by
articulating the kinds of usesthat might be allowed in a
certain district, or the kindsof buildings that might be
allowed in that district, andsaying that, as long as these
developments meet the specificcriteria in the code, they will
be permitted after, of course,staff review.
(07:08):
What we often see in zoningreform processes, though, is
that the code reform will comewith a public hearing.
Right there you introduceuncertainty into the process,
because anything can happen at apublic hearing.
You might get angry neighbors,you might get commissioners who
just want one specific kind ofaesthetic, and they might impose
(07:29):
that cost, and that's where yousee developers shy away from
proceeding with an application.
So, again, I think part of whatpeople who want the market to
respond to zoning reforms mustdo is to figure out to what
extent can they provide themarket with certainty, and I
think, as of right zoning helpswith that.
Stephanie Rouse (07:50):
I think another issue that I've noticed is, at
least in our community, is we'llmake these small little tweaks
to our code, like we'll increasethe height limit by 10 feet in
a couple of districts or we'llreduce parking by a little bit.
Or we did what we called anaffordable housing text
amendment, where we did likethree or four little changes
that like reduced a cornersetback, increased height,
(08:10):
reduced parking a little bit insome of our zoning districts,
and a year later I was gettingready for lobbying on Capitol
Hill and it was like, oh, howimpactful has this been.
And reached out to ourdevelopment department they were
like, yeah, I mean a few peoplehave taken advantage of the
administrative review amendmentthat we did, but nothing else
really.
And I think it's just becausethey're just such small little
(08:30):
changes that they don't reallyhelp.
Sara Bronin (08:33):
So I call these, in key to the city and in other
research that I've done, zoningby a thousand cuts.
Because what has happened inzoning is that all of these
technical provisions, the onesyou talk about, setbacks or lot
coverage requirements, minimumparking requirements, height
caps and occupancy restrictionsin some cases even come together
(08:54):
to constrain the types ofdevelopment that can be located
in particular areas and can, asyou point out, deter the private
parties and private propertyowners from proceeding with
projects.
So while I don't know what theequivalent of greenwashing is in
zoning, but for a city councilto say, oh, rah, rah, we've
(09:14):
created this affordable housingdistrict, come to find out that
they've either only made modestchanges or in some cases they've
made it even harder to producethe housing in that district
than even other existingmultifamily districts.
You see again sort of therhetoric and the idea that, oh,
we made a change, not everychange is a good change.
So in my book I really try tohelp people understand what
(09:38):
these rules say, what they are,what a setback is, for example,
and again try to help peoplereaders piece together how those
things might work to deter orto promote development.
Jennifer Hiatt (09:51):
I work in redevelopment and we actually
hear all the time about howzoning by a thousand cuts is
raising the cost of development,impacting things like
affordable housing, and how thereview process does hinder
development.
One of the observations thatyou make is that we put public
participation.
I mean, we were that you makeis that we put public
participation.
We were just talking about it.
We put public participation ofa project at the end and of
(10:11):
course we ask our developerslike go out and host input in
the neighborhood, and they do,but no one comes because they
don't really know what's goingon.
They don't understand toeveryone, at least in our
community.
Public participation isstanding up at the podium in
front of city council andtelling city council their
feelings.
That happens right at the endof the process, after all of the
(10:32):
money has been expended.
And so what would puttingparticipation process of a
redevelopment project or anyproject at the beginning of the
process look like to you, likehow would you encourage that in
a better zoning situation?
Sara Bronin (10:45):
Yeah Well, I was really fortunate to serve in the
role of chair of the City ofHartford's Planning and Zoning
Commission for seven years andin that role, as I talk about in
the book in a few of thechapters, I helped to lead an
overhaul of the zoning.
Types of development,particularly housing, should be
(11:12):
clearly articulated in the code,the requirements, including
form-based requirements, shouldbe set forth and that once that
was done, then a developer orprivate property owner could
come to the city ask for apermit and they would receive it
after staff reviewing it.
So again that as-of-right typepermitting.
In Hartford we actually madeall housing as-of-right.
(11:36):
There is no public hearing forhousing and the reason for that
is that we developed these veryclear rules about housing and
how it would turn out inparticular neighborhoods by
saying how tall it might be, byusing those thousand cuts.
But I hope for good, because itcreated a menu that would enable
the neighborhood to haveexpectations about how the
development would occur, whilegiving certainty to those people
(11:59):
who were willing to take therisk and develop something new.
So I think that's one strategyfor communities to again try to
think through the end product,the design of buildings that
would be acceptable in certainneighborhoods and to write the
zoning rules to give everybodygreater certainty about the
process.
And in Hartford we have seen, Ithink, a lot of benefits to
(12:22):
that process, includingdevelopment.
That has happened in a moreefficient manner and that's
really good for a city likeHartford, a post-industrial city
that could use more development.
Stephanie Rouse (12:32):
So one community that you profile in
your book is Nashville and MusicRow, and you talk about the
vibrancy of these kind ofdistricts, which sometimes can
be harder to translate down to asmaller community like Lincoln,
nebraska, that doesn't havethat really vibrant music
culture or something that reallymakes us stand out.
How can smaller cities incubatethe type of artistic spaces
(12:54):
that are supporting these greatneighborhoods like Music Row?
Sara Bronin (12:58):
Every city has something to offer when it comes
to culture, but one of thethings that we've noticed when
reviewing zoning codes foranother project that I have
called the National Zoning Atlasis that we see too many
communities that are essentiallysingle use only, in some cases
(13:24):
almost entirely single familyzoning and nothing else.
So what that means is acrossthat community there might not
be the coffee shops or the dancehalls or the other third places
, as I call them in the book,where people can informally
gather.
So I am a big fan of includingthose types of uses in every
community.
I'm also a big fan as youprobably read in one of the
first chapters of the book ofjust generally mixed-use
(13:44):
communities, communities thatare much more convenient and
maybe fulfilling to people thansingle-family, only only large
lot zoning, where you have toget in your car for everything,
where you're really far apartfrom neighbors and where,
frankly, you might not just havethe spontaneous interactions
and the convenience of havingmore than just housing located
(14:05):
in your neighborhood.
So again, I'm a fan of thattype of development.
But I think every community big, small, rural, urban, suburban
has the urge to convene in someform or fashion and through
culture, through the spaces thatsupport culture and exchange.
They can do that, but only ifthe zoning allows them to.
Jennifer Hiatt (14:26):
In my circle of planning friends we joke that
most planners who burn outbecome bartenders like they open
up a bar because they know howimportant that third space is.
But even Nashville's own cityplanning department has admitted
that their zoning does notsupport those third places.
They understand that those werethe places that the magic of
Music City occurred.
But cities don't seem to beable to get out of their own way
(14:48):
to allow for those third spacesto really come into play.
I know you've been doing abunch of amendments to Hartford
zoning code.
So how can planners help themayor or city council just get
out of their own way?
Sara Bronin (15:02):
I think one thing that planners can do is just
offer the success stories inmixed use zoning and there's
success stories.
You featured on your podcastthat Planning Magazine features
that you a lot Urban LandInstitute.
You do see success stories atdifferent scales on a very basic
level, mixed use, but maybe onestep further, the idea that a
(15:24):
mix of uses should includecultural venues where culture
can happen or arts can happen,and in the book I talk about,
well, a big city where we'veseen one particular artist,
slash urbanist, slash realestate developer, almost, who
has taken underutilized spacesin the South Side neighborhood
(15:45):
and repurposed those for, inthat case, a theater, a movie
theater, a sort of library, anarts center with a bar and DJs
and sort of just array ofcultural activities that are
housed within and adjacent towhat was formerly a residential
neighborhood.
And I talked about how thezoning code in Chicago actually
(16:09):
helped to enable that byloosening some of the
restrictions on uses thatpreviously existed on that
neighborhood.
So again, I think from aplanning perspective, using case
studies from big cities, smallcities and everything in between
can really be helpful in makingthe case and, I think,
appealing to the fun side ofdecision makers.
I mean it probably is not thecase that a city council member,
(16:31):
even in a small town, doesn'twant to go out to a restaurant
you know might not want to catcha music event.
We're not talking about thescale of Nashville or Austin,
both of which I cover in thebook and have huge districts,
neighborhoods and huge parts oftheir economies dependent on
culture and tourism and music inboth cases.
So I think starting small andappealing to decision makers'
(16:52):
own self-interest and seeingsome of those communities might
be a place to start.
Stephanie Rouse (16:57):
We touched on this already a little bit with
the idea of the frozenneighborhood, but one of the big
issues with zoning is that ithas this lack of ability to
respond to new and emergingtrends quickly.
How can planners build zoningcodes that are more nimble and
responsive to our changingcities?
Sara Bronin (17:13):
Planners had to do that in response to the COVID-19
pandemic.
In lots of different communitiesaround the country we saw very
fast zoning reforms to enablethings like outdoor cafes and as
we hopefully emerge from thatera, we see zoning changes that
are allowing for conversions ofthe office buildings that have
(17:35):
been emptied out due to the workfrom home the rise in work from
home that we saw during COVID.
So planners have had to inrecent years respond to pretty
significant shifts in you wantto call them land use patterns.
You can call it that If you'renot a planner and you just want
to say in the way people moveand occupy their communities, I
(17:57):
mean, I think that really iswhat it comes down to.
So I think, using the lessonsfrom COVID-19 as a starting
point, that's something I dosuggest in the book to say look,
we have this flexibility, we'reresponsive to those shifts
during COVID-19.
Why don't we keep that goingand why don't we create codes
that are both more flexible butalso more expansive and less
(18:21):
restrictive in some of thethings that we've held true in
the planning world for manyyears?
Jennifer Hiatt (18:27):
Two other large cities that you compare,
scottsdale and Tucson.
We talk about the zoning impacton water consumption and you
know, considering how much we'resupposed to be trending towards
like conservation and energyefficiency, water scarcity, it
was kind of disturbing to readabout how Scottsdale actually
mandates water thirsty turf orground cover and comparing that
(18:49):
to Tucson, which is zoned outfor water friendly native plants
.
Of course I understand like theimpact of a larger lot and that
kind of impact that it has onsingle family housing, whatever,
but I had honestly not everreally thought about it in like
an environmental water context.
So can you just talk about howthese are the things that people
aren't really thinking ofupfront as zoning requirements?
(19:11):
I don't think anybody wasreally thinking about how turf
versus water-friendly plantsshows up in a zoning code.
Sara Bronin (19:18):
Well, that's exactly why I wrote this book so
that people would kind of thinkabout how these individual
zoning provisions havesignificant impacts at scale on
things other than housing.
So you know, I've mentionedseveral times already in this
conversation residential zoning,but in the book there's only
one chapter on residentialzoning and, as you point out,
(19:41):
there are other chapters, otherideas about environments and
water management, abouttransportation patterns, about
nightlife and vibrancy, aboutcraftsmen and what we call in
Hartford craftsmen, industrialuses, and zoning affects all of
that.
And I love how you pulled outthe example, though, of Tucson
(20:03):
and Scottsdale.
And the reason those are in thebook are because I visited both
of those places and I justlooked up their zoning codes,
thinking I wonder if zoningplays a role in the water usage
in both of these cities and thedesert landscapes you see in
Tucson and you do not see inScottsdale.
And lo and behold, of coursezoning plays a role in that.
(20:24):
And you can then look back andlook at the historical water
usage for both of thosecommunities and see Tucson's is
far less water usage per capita,both of those communities.
And see, Tucson's is far lesswater usage per capita than
Scottsdale.
And again, people in Scottsdale, they're forced to water their
lawns every day in order to makesure that they're green in
accordance with the zoning code,and that, I think, is maybe an
unintended consequence of maybeformerly aesthetic requirement,
(20:47):
or maybe Scottsdale just wantedto throw its nose at the
region's crazy water shortageproblems.
So I don't know what themotivation is, but the
consequences are there and mypoint in the book is to say
there are ways that we can usezoning to actually manage a wide
number of issues beyond what wetend to talk about most when it
comes to zoning, which ishousing and housing
affordability.
Stephanie Rouse (21:09):
So you made a comment in that last answer
about why you wrote the book andit made me think about when I
was reading this.
I was wondering who did youwrite the book for?
Because it kind of isintroducing zoning, so who is
your intended audience?
Sara Bronin (21:22):
The world, because every American, whether they
know it or not, whether theylive in a community with zoning
or not, has been affected byzoning, because zoning has
effects on our ability to relateto each other as people.
It has effects on our choice oftransportation Do we use a car
(21:43):
or not?
It has effects on our economiesand I talk about that in the
book on arts and culture, as wewere just discussing and, of
course, our ability to meet ourbasic needs, both housing and,
by the way, food.
There's a chapter on foodrelated zoning.
I couldn't help it.
I'm a food oriented person andthere's a lot of interactions
between zoning and our foodsupply.
(22:05):
So I wrote the book for anybodywho maybe walked around their
neighborhood and wondered why isthis?
And maybe had never heard of orthought of zoning before.
So I, of course, expect thatplanners will read this book,
that people interested intransportation systems might
read the book.
But I really wrote the book foreverybody, and that's why,
instead of taking a verylegalistic approach to the topic
(22:29):
which I could do because I'mnot only a lawyer but I'm a law
professor, so I'm very legallytext inclined Instead of doing
that, though, I really focus onstories and telling the stories
of places and, in some cases,individual people, because I do
feel like it is a better way toillustrate how zoning is
actually functioning in theworld and the impacts that it
has.
Jennifer Hiatt (22:50):
And to that end, even if you think that you're
already a zoning person becauseI would have said that I thought
that I have my planning degreeI am also a land use attorney I
feel like I have thought a lotabout how zoning impacts things,
but then you would bring upthings like water usage or
Stephanie's probably going tobring up here in a minute zoning
the public area just as much asyou were the private area, and
(23:12):
I was like going to bring uphere in a minute, zoning the
public area just as much as youwere the private area, and I was
like, wow, I should have beenthinking about that but hadn't
quite gotten there.
So, even if you think you're azoning expert, you should still
pick up the book.
Sara Bronin (23:23):
Thank you for advertising that.
Yes, I guess that is the pointof this podcast trying to pitch
why this book is valuable.
The other thing I would justadd is that I do think the book
is valuable for planningcommissioners, because people
who take on that role, they'redoing it for the good of their
community, they're doing it withall the best intentions, but
(23:43):
they might not actually have afull perspective as to what
zoning is and does so forplanners out there that you know
want to offer their planningcommissioners a resource.
I hope and feel that this couldbe valuable to those people who
serve on commissions and couldjust really again situate what
they're doing in a broadercontext.
Stephanie Rouse (24:02):
Yeah, that's a really good point and Jennifer
kind of teed up my next question.
But an idea that I really lovedfrom your book was the concept
of zoning not just privateproperty but public right-of-way
as well.
So many communities adoptcomplete street policies but
they lack the teeth that zoningdoes and don't really consider
neighborhood context.
They seem to be two separatethings that are operating on
(24:22):
their own and don't worktogether.
Why do you think this ideahasn't caught on to the extent
that I think it should?
Sara Bronin (24:29):
One of the reasons, I think, is because there's not
that many communities that haveused zoning to actually help to
regulate the public space.
You know, I did legal research,I made the case in Hartford that
the zoning rules at the statelevel and at the local level
enable us to reach into thepublic space and to set out
rules for development.
Because, after all, the streetsare land use, the sidewalks are
(24:52):
land use and if you actuallylook at a state, most of the
state zoning enabling acts haveidentical language.
They say what local governmentscan do and how they can
regulate.
And you know again, nine timesout of 10, they have the same
language about regulating landand as long as it's not a state
road or a federal road orfederal lands or tribal lands,
the local government by andlarge has the ability to lay out
(25:14):
the rules of the game.
So I do want to put that onpeople's radar screens, because
zoning is very powerful because,as you point out, it dictates
how all development can happen.
But why stop at the propertyline when the local government
could benefit from a morecoherent approach to the public
realm too?
So I'll put that out there asmy best case, the summary of the
(25:36):
legal argument that I make inthe book and that we use to
justify our interventions inpublic streets in Hartford.
Jennifer Hiatt (25:43):
As you've mentioned many times, you were
on Hartford, connecticut'sPlanning Commission when you
worked with them to overhaultheir zoning regulations.
That's a perspective that wejust really haven't heard from
as an actual planningcommissioner writing a book
about zoning overhaul At least,I haven't seen it.
So what's one of your biggesttakeaways that you would like to
share about that experience?
Sara Bronin (26:02):
For me it was a tremendous gift to serve on this
commission because, as a lawprofessor and somebody who spent
my whole life researching andstudying land use laws, it was
the opportunity to put all ofthat into practice and to
understand what it means toguide a community ethically and
(26:23):
inclusively and collaborativelythrough a major effort For me.
I guess the other thing that Iwould say is that we didn't just
stop at the zoning code.
I guess the other thing that Iwould say is that we didn't just
stop at the zoning code.
We also wrote a new city planthat was maybe symbiotic with
the zoning code, whichidentified sort of our top
development sites, rezoned those, the overall city plan for the
(26:45):
inclusion of environmentalchange, sustainability,
transportation access and more.
We overhauled the subdivisionregulations, the inland wetlands
regulations, the climate actionplan that we adopted, built
from the zoning code andexpanded beyond just zoning and
land use to a variety of othergoals, and we actually launched
(27:07):
a city sustainability officewith the climate action plan
that we'd collaborativelydeveloped as well.
So we used the zoning code andthe important conversations that
it generated to not only justtake that regulatory move but
also these auxiliary regulationsand then also the city's
aspirations for itself.
All working together, I hope,to lay the groundwork for a much
(27:32):
more equitable, inclusive,sustainable city, one that
promoted development but alsorespected the existing
architecture and the existingcommunities.
Very importantly.
Stephanie Rouse (27:43):
That is a lot of work, but seems to be the
better approach that you'retouching everything all at once
instead of these piecemealchanges, as you're going along
with different documents not allworking together.
Sara Bronin (27:58):
Yeah, and the book doesn't really cover all of
those other things that we did.
I really wanted to focus juston zoning, but that context
might help to explain why I didend up making a lot of these
connections in the book to whatwe had done in Hartford and
these broader trends.
And again, you know things likeenvironmental issues and
transportation and food and allof that.
But, for example, in Hartfordwe work with the Food Policy
(28:20):
Commission, as you may have readin the book, to change our
approach to urban agriculture.
That, too, unlocked a wholeseries of questions for me about
oh wait, cities can do this.
And again, we work verycollaboratively to identify
those issues.
So, you're right, there's notnecessarily a book like that
that describes how somebodymight engage in a comprehensive
zoning overhaul, and there'stips about it in the book, I
(28:43):
guess, or I guess, a breadcrumbtrail.
But I also didn't want to hitpeople over the head with here's
how you have to do it.
Here's the laundry list ofthings.
I wanted to just make it reallyan organic tale where, if
somebody was really interestedin that, they could pick up on
the approaches and things thatwe did and, if you know, they
hopefully use that informationfor good.
Stephanie Rouse (29:04):
And as this is booked on planning, what books
would you recommend our readerscheck out?
Sara Bronin (29:09):
Well, I'll put out there.
We talked at the top of thehour about the move Moses
reshaped not just New York Citybut the entire metropolitan area
(29:36):
and, in fact, how cities wereplanned in that and, in fact, to
some extent, are still plannedand changed.
Your listeners probably haveall these books, but the thing I
love about the Power Broker isthat it explains how somebody
essentially had a big vision andit was not a great vision, as
we all know hopefully most of usagree anyway to how a city
(29:58):
might develop but it was avision that he was able to
implement through methodical,technical changes, through the
manipulation of the public andpolitical process and just
through relentless adherence tothe approach.
And I think that planners todayand as we think about the power
of zoning today, we can learnfrom that and we can ask
(30:22):
ourselves and I hope this bookstarts or at least contributes
to that conversation we can askourselves if we feel that zoning
is here to stay.
What is our big vision?
How do we go about achieving it?
So that is, I think, the nextthing that I'm going to stay.
What is our big vision?
How do we go about achieving it?
So that is, I think, the nextthing that I'm going to try to
work on in 2025, if we have NewYear's resolutions and use the
National Zoning Atlas and thedata that we've been
(30:43):
accumulating there to help toprovide a roadmap.
So we've done this book aboutthe stories of zoning and what
it does and then, I think, soonI really want to focus on that.
And so, thinking about thepower broker, I don't want to be
Robert, I mean to be RobertMoses.
So that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that I thinkzoning is going to have a
moment very soon and gettingthat historical knowledge,
(31:05):
getting those contrary views youknow Nolan's view let's not
have zoning.
It's terrible, which it is inmany cases but how do we then
move to a different place?
I think getting as many ofthese views out as possible and
engaging in the literaturethat's out there is going to be
really important for us to moveforward.
Stephanie Rouse (31:23):
I can't remember which author, but there
was another author that alsorecommended the Power Broker,
and I only recently was madeaware of this book.
Sara Bronin (31:31):
Oh, wow, okay.
So yeah, you've got to read it.
Stephanie Rouse (31:34):
It seems big, but it's so well-written that I
feel like once you commit todoing it, you'll finish it.
You'll be fascinated.
That's the only reason Ihaven't started is it is a long
book.
Jennifer Hiatt (31:47):
We read it in one of my planning classes and I
always feel very awkward when Isay the Power Broker is one of
my favorite planning booksbecause everyone's like you like
Robert Moses.
No, I like the book the PowerBroker.
It's very interesting.
I'm not promoting Robert Moses,but you should read the book.
It's great.
Stephanie Rouse (32:03):
Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us
on Booked on Planning to talkabout your book Key to the City.
Sara Bronin (32:10):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been a super funconversation.
Key to the City.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Hiatt (32:13):
This has been a super fun conversation.
We hope you enjoyed thisconversation with author Sarah
Bronnan on her book Key to theCity how Zoning Shapes Our World
.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at WW
Norton Co.
Or click the link in the shownotes to take you directly to
our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts and please rate, reviewand share the show show.
Thank you.
you're listening to the booked on
planning podcast, a project ofthe nebraska chapter of the
american planning association.
In each episode, we dive intohow cities function by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
(00:37):
Welcome back, Bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
Planning.
In this episode we talk withauthor Sarah Bronnan on her book
Key to the City how ZoningShapes Our World Back in 2023,.
We talked with author NolanGray on his book Arbitrary Lines
, which makes the case for doingaway with zoning, so it seemed
fitting to talk with Sarah aboutthe opposite approach to amend
our zoning codes to make themwork better.
Jennifer Hiatt (00:59):
As I shared in our episode with Nolan, doing
away entirely with zoning mademe a little uncomfortable, so I
thought Sarah's approach wasmuch more realistic.
It's based on the idea ofloosening the chokehold
regulations can have on theprocess and allowing the
majority of desirable uses byright One topic that I found
really interesting from her bookwas the idea of zoning all of
the city, not just privateproperty.
Stephanie Rouse (01:20):
We struggle often with getting our public
right away to support the ideasin our zoning codes applied to
private property.
We struggle often with gettingour public right-of-way to
support the ideas in our zoningcodes applied to private
property.
The best way to make thishappen is to bring the streets
under the purview of zoning aswell, although I'm not sure how
happy our transportationdepartments would be about this
idea.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:35):
Well, who cares about them?
Anyway, we have a lot ofrespect for our transportation
department and I agree that wasa really great point.
I also found her idea of movingthe formal public input process
to the beginning of the projectquite interesting.
I know we have had someprojects that get derailed at
the last minute because of lateconcerns from the public, and
they were easily addressable,but it would have been great if
we could have learned about themearly on and then incorporated
(01:58):
that feedback into the designprocess.
So let's get into ourconversation with author Sarah
Bronin on Key to the City howZoning Shapes Our World.
Stephanie Rouse (02:08):
Well, Sara, welcome to the Booked on
Planning podcast.
We're happy to have you on totalk about your book, key to the
City, which argues that zoninghas so much potential to support
great cities when done right.
We're also hearing in theprofession calls to abolish
zoning, so what's your responseto the ideas floating around out
there that we should get rid ofzoning altogether?
Sara Bronin (02:28):
Well, first, stephanie and Jennifer, thank
you so much for having me.
I'm so excited about thisconversation and I think you
really got right to the heart ofthe debate about zoning.
That's happening right now inzoning circles, such that they
are, and you do have a group ofpeople that says, well, zoning
is such a huge problem that itshould be abolished.
(02:48):
And I guess I have a couple ofreflections on that approach.
The first is that humans,throughout the course of history
, have always in some form orfashion regulated the way their
communities are organizedthrough land use and building
rules.
So I think, try as we might, weprobably would not get away
(03:09):
from some form of regulation ofour built environment.
The other thing is that, justfrom a political standpoint,
it's highly unlikely that even alocal government maybe a small
local government might, but alarge city that has zoning, or
even a state legislature, wouldsimply say we're done, we give
(03:29):
up, we're just tossing out thecode entirely.
I think it's more likely thatplaces will look to changing
their zoning incrementally or,in some cases, revising their
zoning code in a comprehensiveway.
And those are the opportunities.
Those are things that we seeactually cities doing and even
state legislatures doing.
(03:50):
They're not getting rid ofzoning, they're incrementally
improving it.
So from a practical andpolitical standpoint, I don't
see that the abolition of zoningis in our future.
Maybe that will change, but mybook takes the view that zoning
is here.
It's something we have to workwith.
It has a lot of opportunitiesfor us and if we rethink it we
(04:12):
can actually give ourselves thecommunities we hope for.
Jennifer Hiatt (04:17):
On that note, a term that stuck with me in the
opening chapters of the book waswhat zoning is kind of doing
now which is creating frozenneighborhood syndrome, and I had
never really considered thatzoning is kind of doing now
which is creating frozenneighborhood syndrome, and I had
never really considered thatzoning was causing such an issue
.
But of course it is.
So can you define for ourlisteners what you mean by
frozen neighborhood syndrome andhow zoning perpetuates it?
Sara Bronin (04:35):
So I love this idea .
I would attribute the phrase toBob Ellison, who was my
professor at Yale Law School andwrote a book about America's
frozen neighborhoods and reallyspoke to, I think, what I see in
zoning codes all over thecountry, which is that they were
adopted maybe in 1950, 1960,1970, and then they were just
(04:58):
left there and never reallyrethought.
And so, instead of seeingcommunities evolve as needs
change, as tastes change, wehave neighborhoods that were
really stuck in a very old wayof thinking about development,
of thinking about residentialareas versus commercial areas,
and that has contributed to whatyou can maybe call stagnation
(05:21):
frozen neighborhoods,neighborhoods that really
haven't been allowed to changebecause the zoning constraints
on them have mandated thatdevelopments stay exactly the
same.
We're seeing challengesincluding, by the way, from
COVID, in how we zone and maybethe restrictive nature of so
much American zoning, therestrictive nature meaning, in
(05:42):
this case, single familyneighborhoods with large lots
that we see virtually in everycommunity across the country.
Stephanie Rouse (05:50):
So when we do get communities that are finally
making the code changes thatthey need to to encourage better
neighborhoods and supportcommunity development, we often
struggle with getting from codechange to actual market change.
So we might put something inour ordinances trying to support
more housing development ormore density or active modes of
transportation, but we justdon't see the market respond to
(06:12):
that.
Are there any ways or anyapproaches to code changes that
communities can make that reallyhelp support the market side of
change?
Sara Bronin (06:21):
I think, for communities that have looked at
their zoning codes and reallywanted to see market change in,
you have to provide the marketwith certainty.
(06:47):
One way that zoning codesprovide certainty is by
articulating the kinds of usesthat might be allowed in a
certain district, or the kindsof buildings that might be
allowed in that district, andsaying that, as long as these
developments meet the specificcriteria in the code, they will
be permitted after, of course,staff review.
(07:08):
What we often see in zoningreform processes, though, is
that the code reform will comewith a public hearing.
Right there you introduceuncertainty into the process,
because anything can happen at apublic hearing.
You might get angry neighbors,you might get commissioners who
just want one specific kind ofaesthetic, and they might impose
(07:29):
that cost, and that's where yousee developers shy away from
proceeding with an application.
So, again, I think part of whatpeople who want the market to
respond to zoning reforms mustdo is to figure out to what
extent can they provide themarket with certainty, and I
think, as of right zoning helpswith that.
Stephanie Rouse (07:50):
I think another issue that I've noticed is, at
least in our community, is we'llmake these small little tweaks
to our code, like we'll increasethe height limit by 10 feet in
a couple of districts or we'llreduce parking by a little bit.
Or we did what we called anaffordable housing text
amendment, where we did likethree or four little changes
that like reduced a cornersetback, increased height,
(08:10):
reduced parking a little bit insome of our zoning districts,
and a year later I was gettingready for lobbying on Capitol
Hill and it was like, oh, howimpactful has this been.
And reached out to ourdevelopment department they were
like, yeah, I mean a few peoplehave taken advantage of the
administrative review amendmentthat we did, but nothing else
really.
And I think it's just becausethey're just such small little
(08:30):
changes that they don't reallyhelp.
Sara Bronin (08:33):
So I call these, in key to the city and in other
research that I've done, zoningby a thousand cuts.
Because what has happened inzoning is that all of these
technical provisions, the onesyou talk about, setbacks or lot
coverage requirements, minimumparking requirements, height
caps and occupancy restrictionsin some cases even come together
(08:54):
to constrain the types ofdevelopment that can be located
in particular areas and can, asyou point out, deter the private
parties and private propertyowners from proceeding with
projects.
So while I don't know what theequivalent of greenwashing is in
zoning, but for a city councilto say, oh, rah, rah, we've
(09:14):
created this affordable housingdistrict, come to find out that
they've either only made modestchanges or in some cases they've
made it even harder to producethe housing in that district
than even other existingmultifamily districts.
You see again sort of therhetoric and the idea that, oh,
we made a change, not everychange is a good change.
So in my book I really try tohelp people understand what
(09:38):
these rules say, what they are,what a setback is, for example,
and again try to help peoplereaders piece together how those
things might work to deter orto promote development.
Jennifer Hiatt (09:51):
I work in redevelopment and we actually
hear all the time about howzoning by a thousand cuts is
raising the cost of development,impacting things like
affordable housing, and how thereview process does hinder
development.
One of the observations thatyou make is that we put public
participation.
I mean, we were that you makeis that we put public
participation.
We were just talking about it.
We put public participation ofa project at the end and of
(10:11):
course we ask our developerslike go out and host input in
the neighborhood, and they do,but no one comes because they
don't really know what's goingon.
They don't understand toeveryone, at least in our
community.
Public participation isstanding up at the podium in
front of city council andtelling city council their
feelings.
That happens right at the endof the process, after all of the
(10:32):
money has been expended.
And so what would puttingparticipation process of a
redevelopment project or anyproject at the beginning of the
process look like to you, likehow would you encourage that in
a better zoning situation?
Sara Bronin (10:45):
Yeah Well, I was really fortunate to serve in the
role of chair of the City ofHartford's Planning and Zoning
Commission for seven years andin that role, as I talk about in
the book in a few of thechapters, I helped to lead an
overhaul of the zoning.
Types of development,particularly housing, should be
(11:12):
clearly articulated in the code,the requirements, including
form-based requirements, shouldbe set forth and that once that
was done, then a developer orprivate property owner could
come to the city ask for apermit and they would receive it
after staff reviewing it.
So again that as-of-right typepermitting.
In Hartford we actually madeall housing as-of-right.
(11:36):
There is no public hearing forhousing and the reason for that
is that we developed these veryclear rules about housing and
how it would turn out inparticular neighborhoods by
saying how tall it might be, byusing those thousand cuts.
But I hope for good, because itcreated a menu that would enable
the neighborhood to haveexpectations about how the
development would occur, whilegiving certainty to those people
(11:59):
who were willing to take therisk and develop something new.
So I think that's one strategyfor communities to again try to
think through the end product,the design of buildings that
would be acceptable in certainneighborhoods and to write the
zoning rules to give everybodygreater certainty about the
process.
And in Hartford we have seen, Ithink, a lot of benefits to
(12:22):
that process, includingdevelopment.
That has happened in a moreefficient manner and that's
really good for a city likeHartford, a post-industrial city
that could use more development.
Stephanie Rouse (12:32):
So one community that you profile in
your book is Nashville and MusicRow, and you talk about the
vibrancy of these kind ofdistricts, which sometimes can
be harder to translate down to asmaller community like Lincoln,
nebraska, that doesn't havethat really vibrant music
culture or something that reallymakes us stand out.
How can smaller cities incubatethe type of artistic spaces
(12:54):
that are supporting these greatneighborhoods like Music Row?
Sara Bronin (12:58):
Every city has something to offer when it comes
to culture, but one of thethings that we've noticed when
reviewing zoning codes foranother project that I have
called the National Zoning Atlasis that we see too many
communities that are essentiallysingle use only, in some cases
(13:24):
almost entirely single familyzoning and nothing else.
So what that means is acrossthat community there might not
be the coffee shops or the dancehalls or the other third places
, as I call them in the book,where people can informally
gather.
So I am a big fan of includingthose types of uses in every
community.
I'm also a big fan as youprobably read in one of the
first chapters of the book ofjust generally mixed-use
(13:44):
communities, communities thatare much more convenient and
maybe fulfilling to people thansingle-family, only only large
lot zoning, where you have toget in your car for everything,
where you're really far apartfrom neighbors and where,
frankly, you might not just havethe spontaneous interactions
and the convenience of havingmore than just housing located
(14:05):
in your neighborhood.
So again, I'm a fan of thattype of development.
But I think every community big, small, rural, urban, suburban
has the urge to convene in someform or fashion and through
culture, through the spaces thatsupport culture and exchange.
They can do that, but only ifthe zoning allows them to.
Jennifer Hiatt (14:26):
In my circle of planning friends we joke that
most planners who burn outbecome bartenders like they open
up a bar because they know howimportant that third space is.
But even Nashville's own cityplanning department has admitted
that their zoning does notsupport those third places.
They understand that those werethe places that the magic of
Music City occurred.
But cities don't seem to beable to get out of their own way
(14:48):
to allow for those third spacesto really come into play.
I know you've been doing abunch of amendments to Hartford
zoning code.
So how can planners help themayor or city council just get
out of their own way?
Sara Bronin (15:02):
I think one thing that planners can do is just
offer the success stories inmixed use zoning and there's
success stories.
You featured on your podcastthat Planning Magazine features
that you a lot Urban LandInstitute.
You do see success stories atdifferent scales on a very basic
level, mixed use, but maybe onestep further, the idea that a
(15:24):
mix of uses should includecultural venues where culture
can happen or arts can happen,and in the book I talk about,
well, a big city where we'veseen one particular artist,
slash urbanist, slash realestate developer, almost, who
has taken underutilized spacesin the South Side neighborhood
(15:45):
and repurposed those for, inthat case, a theater, a movie
theater, a sort of library, anarts center with a bar and DJs
and sort of just array ofcultural activities that are
housed within and adjacent towhat was formerly a residential
neighborhood.
And I talked about how thezoning code in Chicago actually
(16:09):
helped to enable that byloosening some of the
restrictions on uses thatpreviously existed on that
neighborhood.
So again, I think from aplanning perspective, using case
studies from big cities, smallcities and everything in between
can really be helpful in makingthe case and, I think,
appealing to the fun side ofdecision makers.
I mean it probably is not thecase that a city council member,
(16:31):
even in a small town, doesn'twant to go out to a restaurant
you know might not want to catcha music event.
We're not talking about thescale of Nashville or Austin,
both of which I cover in thebook and have huge districts,
neighborhoods and huge parts oftheir economies dependent on
culture and tourism and music inboth cases.
So I think starting small andappealing to decision makers'
(16:52):
own self-interest and seeingsome of those communities might
be a place to start.
Stephanie Rouse (16:57):
We touched on this already a little bit with
the idea of the frozenneighborhood, but one of the big
issues with zoning is that ithas this lack of ability to
respond to new and emergingtrends quickly.
How can planners build zoningcodes that are more nimble and
responsive to our changingcities?
Sara Bronin (17:13):
Planners had to do that in response to the COVID-19
pandemic.
In lots of different communitiesaround the country we saw very
fast zoning reforms to enablethings like outdoor cafes and as
we hopefully emerge from thatera, we see zoning changes that
are allowing for conversions ofthe office buildings that have
(17:35):
been emptied out due to the workfrom home the rise in work from
home that we saw during COVID.
So planners have had to inrecent years respond to pretty
significant shifts in you wantto call them land use patterns.
You can call it that If you'renot a planner and you just want
to say in the way people moveand occupy their communities, I
(17:57):
mean, I think that really iswhat it comes down to.
So I think, using the lessonsfrom COVID-19 as a starting
point, that's something I dosuggest in the book to say look,
we have this flexibility, we'reresponsive to those shifts
during COVID-19.
Why don't we keep that goingand why don't we create codes
that are both more flexible butalso more expansive and less
(18:21):
restrictive in some of thethings that we've held true in
the planning world for manyyears?
Jennifer Hiatt (18:27):
Two other large cities that you compare,
scottsdale and Tucson.
We talk about the zoning impacton water consumption and you
know, considering how much we'resupposed to be trending towards
like conservation and energyefficiency, water scarcity, it
was kind of disturbing to readabout how Scottsdale actually
mandates water thirsty turf orground cover and comparing that
(18:49):
to Tucson, which is zoned outfor water friendly native plants
.
Of course I understand like theimpact of a larger lot and that
kind of impact that it has onsingle family housing, whatever,
but I had honestly not everreally thought about it in like
an environmental water context.
So can you just talk about howthese are the things that people
aren't really thinking ofupfront as zoning requirements?
(19:11):
I don't think anybody wasreally thinking about how turf
versus water-friendly plantsshows up in a zoning code.
Sara Bronin (19:18):
Well, that's exactly why I wrote this book so
that people would kind of thinkabout how these individual
zoning provisions havesignificant impacts at scale on
things other than housing.
So you know, I've mentionedseveral times already in this
conversation residential zoning,but in the book there's only
one chapter on residentialzoning and, as you point out,
(19:41):
there are other chapters, otherideas about environments and
water management, abouttransportation patterns, about
nightlife and vibrancy, aboutcraftsmen and what we call in
Hartford craftsmen, industrialuses, and zoning affects all of
that.
And I love how you pulled outthe example, though, of Tucson
(20:03):
and Scottsdale.
And the reason those are in thebook are because I visited both
of those places and I justlooked up their zoning codes,
thinking I wonder if zoningplays a role in the water usage
in both of these cities and thedesert landscapes you see in
Tucson and you do not see inScottsdale.
And lo and behold, of coursezoning plays a role in that.
(20:24):
And you can then look back andlook at the historical water
usage for both of thosecommunities and see Tucson's is
far less water usage per capita,both of those communities.
And see, Tucson's is far lesswater usage per capita than
Scottsdale.
And again, people in Scottsdale, they're forced to water their
lawns every day in order to makesure that they're green in
accordance with the zoning code,and that, I think, is maybe an
unintended consequence of maybeformerly aesthetic requirement,
(20:47):
or maybe Scottsdale just wantedto throw its nose at the
region's crazy water shortageproblems.
So I don't know what themotivation is, but the
consequences are there and mypoint in the book is to say
there are ways that we can usezoning to actually manage a wide
number of issues beyond what wetend to talk about most when it
comes to zoning, which ishousing and housing
affordability.
Stephanie Rouse (21:09):
So you made a comment in that last answer
about why you wrote the book andit made me think about when I
was reading this.
I was wondering who did youwrite the book for?
Because it kind of isintroducing zoning, so who is
your intended audience?
Sara Bronin (21:22):
The world, because every American, whether they
know it or not, whether theylive in a community with zoning
or not, has been affected byzoning, because zoning has
effects on our ability to relateto each other as people.
It has effects on our choice oftransportation Do we use a car
(21:43):
or not?
It has effects on our economiesand I talk about that in the
book on arts and culture, as wewere just discussing and, of
course, our ability to meet ourbasic needs, both housing and,
by the way, food.
There's a chapter on foodrelated zoning.
I couldn't help it.
I'm a food oriented person andthere's a lot of interactions
between zoning and our foodsupply.
(22:05):
So I wrote the book for anybodywho maybe walked around their
neighborhood and wondered why isthis?
And maybe had never heard of orthought of zoning before.
So I, of course, expect thatplanners will read this book,
that people interested intransportation systems might
read the book.
But I really wrote the book foreverybody, and that's why,
instead of taking a verylegalistic approach to the topic
(22:29):
which I could do because I'mnot only a lawyer but I'm a law
professor, so I'm very legallytext inclined Instead of doing
that, though, I really focus onstories and telling the stories
of places and, in some cases,individual people, because I do
feel like it is a better way toillustrate how zoning is
actually functioning in theworld and the impacts that it
has.
Jennifer Hiatt (22:50):
And to that end, even if you think that you're
already a zoning person becauseI would have said that I thought
that I have my planning degreeI am also a land use attorney I
feel like I have thought a lotabout how zoning impacts things,
but then you would bring upthings like water usage or
Stephanie's probably going tobring up here in a minute zoning
the public area just as much asyou were the private area, and
(23:12):
I was like going to bring uphere in a minute, zoning the
public area just as much as youwere the private area, and I was
like, wow, I should have beenthinking about that but hadn't
quite gotten there.
So, even if you think you're azoning expert, you should still
pick up the book.
Sara Bronin (23:23):
Thank you for advertising that.
Yes, I guess that is the pointof this podcast trying to pitch
why this book is valuable.
The other thing I would justadd is that I do think the book
is valuable for planningcommissioners, because people
who take on that role, they'redoing it for the good of their
community, they're doing it withall the best intentions, but
(23:43):
they might not actually have afull perspective as to what
zoning is and does so forplanners out there that you know
want to offer their planningcommissioners a resource.
I hope and feel that this couldbe valuable to those people who
serve on commissions and couldjust really again situate what
they're doing in a broadercontext.
Stephanie Rouse (24:02):
Yeah, that's a really good point and Jennifer
kind of teed up my next question.
But an idea that I really lovedfrom your book was the concept
of zoning not just privateproperty but public right-of-way
as well.
So many communities adoptcomplete street policies but
they lack the teeth that zoningdoes and don't really consider
neighborhood context.
They seem to be two separatethings that are operating on
(24:22):
their own and don't worktogether.
Why do you think this ideahasn't caught on to the extent
that I think it should?
Sara Bronin (24:29):
One of the reasons, I think, is because there's not
that many communities that haveused zoning to actually help to
regulate the public space.
You know, I did legal research,I made the case in Hartford that
the zoning rules at the statelevel and at the local level
enable us to reach into thepublic space and to set out
rules for development.
Because, after all, the streetsare land use, the sidewalks are
(24:52):
land use and if you actuallylook at a state, most of the
state zoning enabling acts haveidentical language.
They say what local governmentscan do and how they can
regulate.
And you know again, nine timesout of 10, they have the same
language about regulating landand as long as it's not a state
road or a federal road orfederal lands or tribal lands,
the local government by andlarge has the ability to lay out
(25:14):
the rules of the game.
So I do want to put that onpeople's radar screens, because
zoning is very powerful because,as you point out, it dictates
how all development can happen.
But why stop at the propertyline when the local government
could benefit from a morecoherent approach to the public
realm too?
So I'll put that out there asmy best case, the summary of the
(25:36):
legal argument that I make inthe book and that we use to
justify our interventions inpublic streets in Hartford.
Jennifer Hiatt (25:43):
As you've mentioned many times, you were
on Hartford, connecticut'sPlanning Commission when you
worked with them to overhaultheir zoning regulations.
That's a perspective that wejust really haven't heard from
as an actual planningcommissioner writing a book
about zoning overhaul At least,I haven't seen it.
So what's one of your biggesttakeaways that you would like to
share about that experience?
Sara Bronin (26:02):
For me it was a tremendous gift to serve on this
commission because, as a lawprofessor and somebody who spent
my whole life researching andstudying land use laws, it was
the opportunity to put all ofthat into practice and to
understand what it means toguide a community ethically and
(26:23):
inclusively and collaborativelythrough a major effort For me.
I guess the other thing that Iwould say is that we didn't just
stop at the zoning code.
I guess the other thing that Iwould say is that we didn't just
stop at the zoning code.
We also wrote a new city planthat was maybe symbiotic with
the zoning code, whichidentified sort of our top
development sites, rezoned those, the overall city plan for the
(26:45):
inclusion of environmentalchange, sustainability,
transportation access and more.
We overhauled the subdivisionregulations, the inland wetlands
regulations, the climate actionplan that we adopted, built
from the zoning code andexpanded beyond just zoning and
land use to a variety of othergoals, and we actually launched
(27:07):
a city sustainability officewith the climate action plan
that we'd collaborativelydeveloped as well.
So we used the zoning code andthe important conversations that
it generated to not only justtake that regulatory move but
also these auxiliary regulationsand then also the city's
aspirations for itself.
All working together, I hope,to lay the groundwork for a much
(27:32):
more equitable, inclusive,sustainable city, one that
promoted development but alsorespected the existing
architecture and the existingcommunities.
Very importantly.
Stephanie Rouse (27:43):
That is a lot of work, but seems to be the
better approach that you'retouching everything all at once
instead of these piecemealchanges, as you're going along
with different documents not allworking together.
Sara Bronin (27:58):
Yeah, and the book doesn't really cover all of
those other things that we did.
I really wanted to focus juston zoning, but that context
might help to explain why I didend up making a lot of these
connections in the book to whatwe had done in Hartford and
these broader trends.
And again, you know things likeenvironmental issues and
transportation and food and allof that.
But, for example, in Hartfordwe work with the Food Policy
(28:20):
Commission, as you may have readin the book, to change our
approach to urban agriculture.
That, too, unlocked a wholeseries of questions for me about
oh wait, cities can do this.
And again, we work verycollaboratively to identify
those issues.
So, you're right, there's notnecessarily a book like that
that describes how somebodymight engage in a comprehensive
zoning overhaul, and there'stips about it in the book, I
(28:43):
guess, or I guess, a breadcrumbtrail.
But I also didn't want to hitpeople over the head with here's
how you have to do it.
Here's the laundry list ofthings.
I wanted to just make it reallyan organic tale where, if
somebody was really interestedin that, they could pick up on
the approaches and things thatwe did and, if you know, they
hopefully use that informationfor good.
Stephanie Rouse (29:04):
And as this is booked on planning, what books
would you recommend our readerscheck out?
Sara Bronin (29:09):
Well, I'll put out there.
We talked at the top of thehour about the move Moses
reshaped not just New York Citybut the entire metropolitan area
(29:36):
and, in fact, how cities wereplanned in that and, in fact, to
some extent, are still plannedand changed.
Your listeners probably haveall these books, but the thing I
love about the Power Broker isthat it explains how somebody
essentially had a big vision andit was not a great vision, as
we all know hopefully most of usagree anyway to how a city
(29:58):
might develop but it was avision that he was able to
implement through methodical,technical changes, through the
manipulation of the public andpolitical process and just
through relentless adherence tothe approach.
And I think that planners todayand as we think about the power
of zoning today, we can learnfrom that and we can ask
(30:22):
ourselves and I hope this bookstarts or at least contributes
to that conversation we can askourselves if we feel that zoning
is here to stay.
What is our big vision?
How do we go about achieving it?
So that is, I think, the nextthing that I'm going to stay.
What is our big vision?
How do we go about achieving it?
So that is, I think, the nextthing that I'm going to try to
work on in 2025, if we have NewYear's resolutions and use the
National Zoning Atlas and thedata that we've been
(30:43):
accumulating there to help toprovide a roadmap.
So we've done this book aboutthe stories of zoning and what
it does and then, I think, soonI really want to focus on that.
And so, thinking about thepower broker, I don't want to be
Robert, I mean to be RobertMoses.
So that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that I thinkzoning is going to have a
moment very soon and gettingthat historical knowledge,
(31:05):
getting those contrary views youknow Nolan's view let's not
have zoning.
It's terrible, which it is inmany cases but how do we then
move to a different place?
I think getting as many ofthese views out as possible and
engaging in the literaturethat's out there is going to be
really important for us to moveforward.
Stephanie Rouse (31:23):
I can't remember which author, but there
was another author that alsorecommended the Power Broker,
and I only recently was madeaware of this book.
Sara Bronin (31:31):
Oh, wow, okay.
So yeah, you've got to read it.
Stephanie Rouse (31:34):
It seems big, but it's so well-written that I
feel like once you commit todoing it, you'll finish it.
You'll be fascinated.
That's the only reason Ihaven't started is it is a long
book.
Jennifer Hiatt (31:47):
We read it in one of my planning classes and I
always feel very awkward when Isay the Power Broker is one of
my favorite planning booksbecause everyone's like you like
Robert Moses.
No, I like the book the PowerBroker.
It's very interesting.
I'm not promoting Robert Moses,but you should read the book.
It's great.
Stephanie Rouse (32:03):
Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us
on Booked on Planning to talkabout your book Key to the City.
Sara Bronin (32:10):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been a super funconversation.
Key to the City.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Hiatt (32:13):
This has been a super fun conversation.
We hope you enjoyed thisconversation with author Sarah
Bronnan on her book Key to theCity how Zoning Shapes Our World
.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at WW
Norton Co.
Or click the link in the shownotes to take you directly to
our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts and please rate, reviewand share the show show.
Thank you.
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