July 8, 2025 • 41 mins
A pepper spray in your bag is smart, but knowing your legal rights as a female citizen of India might be what truly saves your case.
In this episode of Books & Beyond, lawyer and Pink Legal founder Manasi Chaudhari unpacks her debut book Legally Yours, a witty, no-nonsense guide that explains women’s legal rights in India through pop culture, quizzes, and relatable scenarios. From decoding consent in Kabir Singh to tips for protecting yourself in a live-in relationship, Manasi shares the why and how behind creating a book that feels like your friend with a law degree. They also get into the realities of the justice system, how knowledge can be your most powerful defence, and what makes laws work—or fail—in real life.
If you’ve ever rolled your eyes at a stalking-turned-love-story in a Bollywood film, felt confused about filing an FIR, or just want to know what your rights really are (without Googling legalese), this episode will leave you feeling more informed, more aware, and way more equipped to speak up.
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The Bound Publishing Course is a comprehensive, three-month-long, certified program designed to give people the skills, network, and opportunity to build a career in book, magazine, or digital publishing.
You will take part in 100 hours of live online sessions, led by over 40 experienced industry professionals. The course moves from foundational learning to specialized career tracks through live simulations, in-class exercises, and assignments. This hands-on approach is supported by career-focused guidance, such as resume workshops and interview preparation, and culminates in a Capstone Project.
You can explore more about the course here.
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‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Khandelwal (00:01):
Foreign Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound
I'm Tara Khandelwal and I'mMichelle d'cota, in this
podcast, we talk to India'sfinest
Michelle D'costa (00:10):
authors and uncover the stories behind the
best written book
Tara Khandelwal (00:14):
and dissect how these books shape our lives and
worldviews today. So let's divein. What do you do when you are
in a public place and someonecat calls you? Or what do you do
when your office is planning tofire someone who just had a baby
I have with me here today. MansiChaudhary. She's the author of
legally yours, a woman's guideto her legal rights, and the
(00:36):
title says it all. She'stransforming how women in India
access and understand theirlegal rights. And I picked up
this book because I wanted todiscuss some of these topics and
use this podcast also as an ininto understanding how to deal
with these very unfortunateeveryday realities ranging all
the way from harassment todomestic violence, cyber
(00:56):
bullying, workplace laws,marriage and also, I didn't know
India has 900 laws. But not toworry, because it's a very easy
book to flip through. Andhonestly, when reading this
book, it just brought so muchmore to light. How many things
women have to keep in mind inIndia, and how much we go
through. And I have with me, theauthor today. So let's get into
(01:20):
it. Welcome. Mansi,
Manasi Chaudhari (01:21):
Hi Tara, thank you so much. Excited to have
this conversation with you, andthanks for the wonderful
introduction.
Tara Khandelwal (01:28):
So it was very interesting, because in the
intro of the book, you said thatyou'd want to be writing this
book for a while, but you had acatalyst, like we all have
catalysts to get us to do thethings we want to for a while,
which was a car accident thatactually had resulted in a very
terrifying encounter with twomen. So can you give our
listeners a little more contextinto what happened about that
(01:50):
with the complaint you file, andwhy was that the catalyst that
made you want to write thisbook?
Manasi Chaudhari (01:55):
So what happened is, I mean, I always
had an idea, since I was in lawschool, that I want to do
something for women where theyunderstand their rights. And
basically, I was driving homefrom work one day in my city,
Hyderabad, and it was late atnight, around 10pm and my car
bumped into another car right infront, and it was the, you know,
(02:16):
it was the tiniest bump ever.
But immediately these two men,who are driving extremely rash,
I mean, they would have almost,you know, hit me off the road if
I hadn't swerved at the righttime. So they got off the car,
and then they started banging onmy doors. They were in extreme
rage. They started trying toopen my door, and unluckily, it
(02:37):
was locked. They broke my sideview mirrors. They were showing
me the middle finger, and, youknow, they just went ballistic.
I was very scared and shocked. Itried to reason with them. We
got a traffic signal, so I triedto tell them that, let's go to
the side, let's park to theside, and we can talk. But they
were not ready to listen toanything. I quickly took out my
(02:58):
phone and took a Num, a pictureof the car's number plate. Now
this picture helped me take allthe next steps that I could and
I could remember to take thispicture, because, as a lawyer,
your mind automatically startsthinking about, how do you
gather proof and evidence? Andthat is why, even in this moment
of crisis, I could, you know,take that action. Now, after
(03:20):
this, I was very scared of myfor my safety. I somehow managed
to get home safe, and everythingwas fine, but I was furious
because, you know, I couldn'tbelieve that these men thought
that they could just behavehowever they want and get away
with it, right? Because that'snot the way. And if I don't take
any action against them, they'regoing to think that it's okay,
(03:40):
they can do this again and theycan get away with it. So even
though my family was not very,you know, very comfortable with
the idea of me filing acomplaint, because obviously in
Indian households, we do getscared, right, that what? What
if there's a retaliation fromthe other side, and what if
things get worse? But I thoughtthat as a lawyer, if I don't do
this, then I'm doing injusticeto my profession as well,
(04:02):
because, you know, that's theleast I can do. So the next day,
I wrote a police complaint. Iwent to the police station, and
I was quite intimidated, becausethis was my first time walking
into a police station, butbecause I knew my rights, and
because I had studied about whatthe police should do, watch what
are the next steps that theysupposed to take? And I was
aware about all these things. Iwas able to take that step of
(04:24):
going to the police station, andI went from a very informed
place. So they took my complaintquite seriously. And they
immediately, you know, gave thegave a call to the the two
people they found through thenumber plate, they found the
license, they found the name,etc, and they call them to the
police station on another dayto, you know, talk and
(04:45):
apologize. It's like, I mean,basically it was up to me, then
what I would want to, whether Iwould want to pursue the
complaint further or not, whichI did not want to, because the
point was to just make themrealize that there are
consequences. So this incident.
Made me realize how scary it canbe for any woman to walk into a
police station, which is thefirst step to realizing your
(05:07):
rights. And that is why Ithought, you know, it's
important to have this, youknow, a resource which helps
every woman to understand herrights, but from a very
simplified point of
Tara Khandelwal (05:17):
view, yeah, and this is already work that you're
doing with your law firm at pinklegal. But you know, this
incident reminds me also of anincident that happened to me. So
when I was first learning todrive, I there was a little bit
of a bump or something withanother car, which is again,
full of these young boys, andthey got really angry, and they
(05:38):
said that we're coming to yourhouse and we're going to meet
your father and everything. So Isaid, Okay, come what is my
father going to do? But I thinkthese kind of incidents happen
sort of to us all, and we justnever end up doing anything
about them like I think all ofus have gone through so, you
know, so many things. And I haveto admit, I didn't, I didn't
(06:00):
know some of the basics in yourbook. You know, even things like
the sexual harassment laws arenot gender neutral, they're
after in a way that the victimis female, which I also found
very interesting. And then youalso said that a lot of these
laws reek of colonial hangover.
So can you give some examples ofthat?
Manasi Chaudhari (06:19):
Sure. And first, I want to start off by
saying that you know, don't feelbad that you did not know about
these basic laws, because it'snot your fault or anybody else's
fault. It's the fault of thesystem, right? Because laws are
so complicated that nobody canunderstand them unless you take
a five year law degree. So don'tworry about that at all. And
about the colonial hangover CRCriminal Code, which was the
(06:43):
Indian Penal Code, and, youknow, lot of other laws. They
were drafted by the British,which was meant for suiting
them, as per, you know, whattheir idea of laws is. And
today, if you see the BNS, whichwas just, you know, the IPC has
now become the Bharatiyasanhita, and it's more or less
the same IPC, but just thesection numbers changed, and a
(07:07):
few minor changes here andthere, but we haven't majorly
revolved the law. It's not keptup with the times, and the
criminal law does not haveenough provisions to, you know,
keep up with new, new, emergingforms of crime, like cyber
crime, cyber bullying, onlinethreats, death and rape threats,
(07:29):
because these are also veryimportant forms of crime. It's
as good as committing a crimebecause you're putting that
person in the fear of real, youknow, real threat to their
safety and life, right? Butthere is no particular section
dedicated to these because theyare old laws. And similarly, we
had section 377, which was, youknow, which used to decrease,
(07:49):
which was to criminalizehomosexuality, which has now
been read down by the SupremeCourt. So until and unless there
is either the Supreme Courtintervenes and change the law,
or there is a movement likeNirbhaya, you know, which really
puts pressure on the governmentto the parliament to amend the
laws. There has not been muchchange, and that is why most of
(08:10):
the laws still reap of acolonial hangover.
Tara Khandelwal (08:13):
And I can imagine that it's especially
problematic in something likecyber bullying. And actually
really like that section in yourbook, because it is a fairly new
thing in India, and I washonestly very scared to read
about the, you know, voyeurismthat happens, or this concept of
sextortion. So, you know, whatare these numbers on cybercrime
right now in India? And what canwomen do if they're in this
Manasi Chaudhari (08:33):
situation? So honestly, I think we won't be
having, I mean, even if you dogo to any study or survey, it
won't reflect the real numbers,right? Because those are only
the reported numbers. But we allknow that most of these, you
know, cyber crimes, they gounreported. So you know, it is
quite rampant. I'm sure, if yousit with a group of five
girlfriends, at least two out offive would have experienced some
(08:56):
form of cyber crime or cyberbullying. Would have been a
victim to that. And in the bookalso have given easy, actionable
steps in day to day life fordifferent types of cyber crimes.
So there isn't a one size fitsall approach, I would say, but
depends on the type of cybercrime, for example, if it's
something like trolling orsomething like, you know,
somebody sending you explicitcontent in your DMS. So there
(09:20):
are ways that you can handlethis, from your phone itself,
right, whether you block them,whether you take screenshots of
the evidence, whether you reportthem, and you also report them
with the platform. But if it issomething like sextortion or
something like threatening toleak your private photos and
videos, which you would haveshared with somebody with
(09:42):
privacy and confidentiality, butnow things have gone bad, and
they're trying to use thisagainst you. This requires more
serious immediate action, likefiling a police complaint,
because this would you will notbe able to handle just by, you
know, making some changing somesettings on your phone, right?
So there. Be differentapproaches that you take for
(10:02):
different kinds of cyber crime,and depending on the intensity
of the issue, you can decideyour approach. And I'm sure if
you you know,
Tara Khandelwal (10:10):
how do you file a police complaint?
Manasi Chaudhari (10:13):
Okay, very interesting and very easy. So
filing a police complaint isjust like if you remember, if
you know when in school, ifsomebody did something to you,
you would go up to the teacherand tell her, right, that
teacher, this is what hashappened to me. You would go
narrate the facts to her. Sopolice complaint is also just
that. It is a narration of thefacts or and of the incident
(10:36):
that has happened to you. But ifyou are filing it in the police
station, obviously you willwrite it down, and then you will
give it to the police, and theywill make a note of it. You can
also file a complaint online, soseveral police stations, or
several cities, metropolitancities now have an online
mechanism through which you canregister some of the police. You
(10:56):
know, jurisdictions have apps,so they have their own app
through which you can register.
You can also give a phone callto the police station and tell
them, and then they will tellyou that, okay, you come down,
or we will come to you and takeyour police complaint. But I
would suggest the best way to doit is still to go to the police
station, because that's the wayyou get the fastest traction.
And you know, because you areright there in front of them. So
(11:18):
they have to take yourcomplaint, and they have to take
action upon it, rather thansomething filed online, which
they may see today or tomorrowor day after, right? So always,
if possible, file a policecomplaint in the police
Tara Khandelwal (11:32):
station. That's quite helpful. So wanted to know
a little bit also about you. Youknow your background, and you
know, because I know that youknow, you have a full you're a
full time lawyer, you have a lawfirm, you have a un recognized
portal called Pink legal which,through which you educate women
about their legal rights, andthen you got this book deal. So
(11:54):
I want to know, you know, howdid you manage your time between
doing all of this and thenwriting the book and then
finally getting it published.
What was your journey?
Manasi Chaudhari (12:03):
I don't know this is very strange, but off
late, many people have beenasking me about, how did you
manage your time, a questionthat I was never asked before as
much so I think, I mean, I don'tknow, there's no specific
formula or method that I use toor hack, you know, to manage my
time or do multiple things isjust that I feel that these are
(12:24):
things that are very close to myheart. I'm passionate about
them, whether it's my corporatework with my law firm, Newman,
or whether it is my, you know,Portal, my pink legal which is,
you know, the first platform foreducating women about their
legal rights. So this is both ofthese I'm very passionate about,
and that is why it never feelslike work and I'm able to take
(12:46):
time out outside of my normalwork hours, whether it's
weekends or late nights,especially when I was writing
the book. I was writing italongside my studies. So I got
the book offer while I was atwhile I just moved to Oxford for
my masters. So while I waspursuing my course, towards the
end of it, is when I startedwriting the book. So I would
(13:08):
always try to take out time inpockets. So say, for example,
I've blocked this weekend thatI'm going to write this
particular chapter. So I wouldfocus on that, rather than
looking at the entire book as awhole and getting overwhelmed.
What about the publishing partof it? So the publishing part of
it was an interesting journey. Iso Ridhima, my editor at Harper,
(13:30):
I think she knew about pinklegal, and she discovered it,
and she found it helpful, andshe felt that it's important for
women in India to have a bookwhich explains all their rights
in a simple way. And there is nobook like that. So she reached
out one day, I think she slidinto my DMs on Instagram, if I
remember correctly, or whetherit was an email, and she reached
(13:51):
out, and, you know, just floatedthe idea, and then we got
talking, and I loved the idea aswell, so I jumped on it, and
that's how, you know, the bookwas born.
Tara Khandelwal (14:02):
That's really cool. I love it when editors
also commission books. And youknow, that's happening more and
more. One thing I really likedin the book is how accessible
you made it. So used a lot ofpop culture examples. So you
know, there are sections in thebook called hashtag movie time
and hashtag real to real whereyou use Bollywood movies to
(14:22):
illustrate your point. So forexample, in the first chapter,
you use a very controversialmovie, Kabir Singh as an
example, and you ask whetherKabir kissing Preethi without
her consent the very first timethey meet is harassment or not.
And then you also talk about themovie Ranjana, where they
glorified stalking as romance.
It's crazy how movies can alsoget it wrong. So what is your
(14:45):
what was the idea behindincluding these sections, and
what is your answer to thesequestions that you put out
Manasi Chaudhari (14:54):
there? So the idea behind including these
sections is because Ipersonally, I draw. Lot of
examples from movies, and I findthem very interesting. They're a
great reflection of society. AndI think in India in general, we
have a culture where we wereally idolize what we see on
screen, right? So that's why Ithought it's important to bring
in those examples, becausepeople will be able to relate to
(15:17):
that and then start thinkingthat whether this is actually a
violation of legal rights. Italso makes it interesting fun,
because law is very heavy, and Iwanted the book to be very easy
to read, so it gives good breaksin the middle I feel my answer
to this question. So forobviously, you know,
technically, as a lawyer, if Ihave to speak, obviously it if
(15:40):
you kiss somebody without theirconsent, it is sexual harassment
right now that consent, and inthe consent section, I've also
spoken about how do you giveconsent or withdraw consent? It
need not always be spoken as yesor no. It can also be expressed
through body language, throughgestures. It can be something
that can be, you know, nonverbal, right? Like you help the
(16:04):
other person understand. Sosupposing, in the scene, pretty
had given an indication that shewas okay with it without
expressly saying yes, then itwould not be a violation. So
these are, you know, situationsthat do happen in day to day
life also, and it's somethingthat we need to understand that
it's not always yes or no.
Sometimes it can be that youhave to read between the lines
(16:24):
and understand whether thatperson is actually okay with it
or not. And yeah. And Ranjana,of course, not just Ranjana.
Many movies we see, in fact,earlier, there was this trend
right where they would showstalking as the ultimate way of
professing your love, and thenthe hero, and by the end of the
movie, she falls for you. Andthen that's how I think many
stalkers were also born inIndia. I liked
Tara Khandelwal (16:47):
how you were very comprehensive. You put
sections that I would never evenhave thought of. So, for
example, you have a wholesection on live in
relationships, which sort ofsomething. You know, I have a
lot of friends who are in them,but I didn't even know that
there any laws around them. Andyou say the law is so vague, you
say that you know the live inrelationships are technically
(17:09):
legal. So what does this mean?
And you'd put some smart girlstips to protecting oneself when
you're in a live inrelationship. And I'll be honest
with you, the way that thingsare structured in India, I've
always been hesitant to get intothis arrangement myself because
of these reasons. So, yeah, canyou tell our listeners a little
bit more about this section?
Manasi Chaudhari (17:28):
Yeah, I think live in relationships is very
important today, because theyare quite you know, it's a
modern, contemporary way thatpeople are exploring, right? If
they choose not to get marriedor like a trial period to before
you get married, and it'simportant for them, especially
for women, to know their laws.
Because I have seen many womenof slightly older generations
(17:49):
who have been in livingrelationships for many years,
almost like a decade or two.
I've also given this example inthe book, and you know, they
have been in livingrelationships. They've had
children out of the livingrelationship, but because it was
not made official, and becausethere were certain other
factors, one day, the man justgot up and left, and this woman
(18:12):
was, you know, just suddenly,overnight, she was without an
income, without a protectedhome, and with the, you know,
mother of two children, with nounderstanding of how she is
supposed to take care of herselfand her children going forward
this, apart from, of course, theemotional, you know, heartbreak
and the, you know, the mentaltrauma that she would have
(18:32):
faced, right? So, because thelaw, there is no specific law in
India about livingrelationships. It comes from
supreme court judgments, and thejudgments are limited to
declaring that okay, it islegal, it is valid if you
qualify certain XYZ factors,which is that you have to be
adults, consenting you not noneof you should be already
married, etc, right? But whatabout beyond that? Now, once you
(18:56):
are in a living relationship,what are your rights as a woman
or as a partner, you know,towards, say, property or
towards security in therelationship, towards, if you
have children, out of the livingrelationship. So it's important
for women to know this and toget into a living relationship
when they while they securethemselves. So if the law does
not secure you, or if the lawdoes not protect you,
(19:18):
explicitly, if there areloopholes, be aware about those
loopholes and understand, howcan you work around them, and
how can you secure yourselfwithout needing the law to
protect you when it doesn'texist. So that is why I put in
the Smart Girls Guide, so thatevery woman can make that
choice, she can understand, andthen she can get into a
relationship protecting herself.
What are some of the tips? Someof the tips are obviously that
(19:42):
you know number one is you haveto know what you're getting
into, right? And that there isno unlike marriage, where you
have divorce, which you know forwhich you have to go to court,
and therefore you have certainsecurity in a marriage, in a
living relationship today youare in a relationship tomorrow,
either one of you can. Justdecide to walk out, and there is
no security, and there is no lawthat will come to stop that or
(20:03):
protect you from that breakup.
So, number one, know the kind ofnature of living relationships.
Number two, secure yourselffinancially, of course, because
you know whether you are earningor whether you are dependent on
your partner, you have to makesure that you have certain
because unlike a divorce, wherea marriage is over, the court
(20:26):
will decide, based on thecircumstances, which spouse will
get alimony, which spouse willget maintenance, how will the
assets and properties be dividedin a living relationship? There
is nothing. There is no court.
It is based on whatever theunderstanding between the
parties is. So because you don'thave the security. Make sure
that either, if you are earning,then you have your you know you
are in control of your finances.
(20:47):
You have enough set aside foryour emergency fund and for
anything else, right, for yourinvestments, lifestyle, et
cetera. And if you arefinancially dependent on your
health, on your living partner,make sure that there is
something in your name, whetherit is, it can be in the form of
a FD, or it can be in the formof, if you both are living in a
house for a long time, then ifyou own the house, both of your
(21:08):
names, or, you know, if it's alease, then both of your names
should be on the lease so thattomorrow, you know, one cannot
just get up and throw you out.
Um, so small things like this,which can help you feel more
secure. Then number three is,obviously, this is a very long
term thing, but you know,property and inheritance. So in
marriage, once you are married,each spouse automatically
(21:29):
becomes the heir to the otherspouse, right? So in case
something happens, one of thespouses passes away, the
property goes to, I mean, thewife or the husband will be one
of the heirs. But in a livingrelationship, there is no law
like that, so it is a gray area.
So to make sure that you knowyour living partner is, you know
(21:51):
is an air, you can have simplethings like a will or add them
to your bank account or add themto your policies as a nominee or
an air. And these small tips canhelp you to secure yourself in a
living
Tara Khandelwal (22:03):
relationship.
That makes sense, because itdoesn't afford all the
legalities of marriage,basically, so you have to work
around that. I also was verysurprised by, you know, some,
and I'm always surprised by someof the laws in India that still
need to change, like, forexample, the whole marital rape
not being illegal in India. Findthat so ridiculous. But one
thing I love is that you don'tneed anyone except your doctor's
(22:26):
permission to get an abortion,especially with the way that the
things in the West are going. Sowhat, according to you, are some
laws in India that still
Manasi Chaudhari (22:35):
need to change. I think obviously
marital rape would be number oneon the list, because that's,
again, a colonial hangover. TheBritish came, they enacted this
law. They went to their country,and it doesn't exist anymore
there, but we are still carryingforward that legacy of, you
know, marital rape, not beingraped, and it has been
questioned in the courts, butthey haven't taken action
(22:56):
against it, and they haven'treally taken any substantial
point number two, I think wherethe laws really need to change
or catch up with the times iswhen it comes to cyber bullying
and harassment. So as I wasmentioning earlier, you know,
death and rape threats havebecome extremely commonplace,
and it's almost like when yougive, you know, regular galleys
earlier, that would be a way ofexpressing your anger at
(23:19):
somebody, and today's becomedeath and rape threats, to the
extent that even you know ViratKohli is new, like small toddler
girl was given rape threats whenhe lost a match. So it's gone to
a new level of disgusting, andbecause there is no law about
this, which specifically takesquick action against anybody who
(23:42):
even says that, you know, daresto say that I will do so and so,
or, you know, explicit peopleare just going around, giving,
distributing these as if they'resweets, right? So this is
something where the Lord reallyneeds to step in and take
stringent, immediate action,track the person's IP, block
(24:02):
them immediately, becausenowadays, you have to sign up on
social media accounts throughverification. You can't just
make a random account, so it'seasier to track them. And you
know, so this is another law,which I think really needs to
change. Yeah, these two would bethe top on my list. Of course,
there are many others, but I'llnot go into all of them. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (24:23):
one thing I liked also about the book, I
found interesting is the foodfor thought sections, because
you not only look at the lawsvery practically, but as I
mentioned before, the book iswritten like a friend. So you
have these food for thoughts,you have tips, you have quizzes,
and the food for thought aresome very thought provoking
questions to readers, which kindof makes one think about the
(24:45):
biases that already exist inIndia. So on the one hand, you
know for women, we have allthese laws that are in place to
protect us, but these laws arenot getting enacted because of
the patriarchal norms that weare living under. So for
example, you had given asituation where. One of your
clients was being harassed by a70 year old man, but her family
did not want her to do anythingabout it. Because of this is
(25:07):
that, though you know all ofthose things, and I was actually
I found it very interesting someof the questions, because I
think even I have sort of beenprivy to some of them. You know,
you ask, Why are women the onlyones who change their surnames
after marriage. If it's actuallyabout feeling more like a part
of the family, then the husbandshould also take the wife's
name. And I completely agree,because even when I got married
(25:30):
and I was registering mycertificate, the first question
everybody asked me was, Oh, areyou going to change your name?
How come you're not changingyour name, which I found really
funny. And you know, there'salso this part in the money
matters chapter where you ask,isn't it highly patriarchal that
once a girl gets married, she'sconsidered belonging to another
family and not her parents legalheir? I think these are such
(25:53):
pertinent questions that you'veincluded. I
Manasi Chaudhari (25:55):
didn't want legally, yours to just be a book
about understanding the lawslike a textbook, but something
that readers can actually engagewith and see how laws are
playing a role in our day to daylives, right, whether it is your
surname or money illegal heirsor even something as simple as
maternity break and, you know,workplace. So yeah, there are
(26:16):
many aspects of life where lawshave an interplay, and I wanted
readers to really start thinkingabout
Tara Khandelwal (26:21):
it. So how did the structure of the book come
to you? Obviously, you know, youhave these different sections
where you cover differenttopics, like domestic violence,
cyber bullying, but these kindof things that we just
mentioned, the quizzes, youknow, the tips, the food for
thought sections, the Bollywoodsections. How did all of that
come together. How did yougamify the book? Almost feels
(26:43):
like it's so accessible and it'sgamified in a way to make us
understand what our legal rightsand how to enact
Manasi Chaudhari (26:49):
them. I love that. I love the idea that it's
gamified because, you know,yeah, it puts a different
perspective to the book. So Iwent about initially identifying
what are the broad areas, youknow, in which women need to
understand their rights. Sowhether it's at home, starts
from domestic violence or familymatters, you know, like
(27:12):
marriage, divorce, alimony ormoney matters was another
important thing, because I thinkit's very important for women to
be financially independent andalso understand what the
inheritance rights are. Thenthere is the entire workplace
section, where you know you havesexual harassment at workplace,
or other related laws likematernity break and equal pay.
(27:34):
Then there's reproductiverights, where you have abortion,
adoption, surrogacy, you know,different areas so and of
course, then you have yoursexual harassment and then cyber
bullying. So I went about firstmapping what are the various
buckets under which women needto understand their rights. And
then within each bucket, whatare the various topics, and how
(27:56):
do I break it up to make it moreeasy and easily, easily
readable. Then, of course, comesyour legal remedies, because
it's not important and enough tojust understand what the law
says, until and unless you knowwhat action you can take, and
how can you stand up foryourself? So there comes your,
you know, police complaints andyour information about courts.
(28:18):
What can you expect? How much?
How do you go to a lawyer? Whatpiece can you expect? Because
these are very practicalquestions that anyone would get
right. Say you want to file acase, you would obviously want
to know, where can I file wherecan I find a good lawyer? How
much will it cost me? How muchtime will it take me? So I just
tried to get into the mind andshoes of any regular, ordinary
woman who would want to stand upfor her rights, who has probably
(28:40):
faced something in her life, orwho just wants to understand
what her rights are so that shecan be aware and vigilant. You
know, some of my female friendsand family members have also
been very helpful in helping meunderstand what are the pain
points that women face, and howdo I address those? And of
course, the inputs of Ridhima,my editor, they were invaluable,
(29:00):
because she also worked alongwith me to kind of, you know,
build a structure to tell mewhere I can add more, explain
more. Because she's alsosomebody who genuinely wanted to
understand these rights. And shehad her own journey along with
the book, where she read many ofthese chapters, and for the
first time, she was also exposedto that kind of in depth, you
(29:22):
know, knowledge about rights invarious areas, right? So she,
herself, was a great candidateto tell me that. Okay, can you
explain this more? Can you, youknow, go more into details in
this chapter, etc?
Tara Khandelwal (29:36):
So I want to come back to, you know, this
point about that we have a lotof laws in our favor, clearly
for women, but that's just onpaper and in real life. You
know, they're barely everexecuted or they can be
manipulated. And you also givean example in the book where you
talk about a case where a seniorlawyer you were working with was
arguing a case for a rapeaccused producer, and he was
(29:59):
trying to get. This producer outon bail, and internally, you had
a hunch of the producer wasguilty, but the lawyer was so
skilled that he managed toconvince the court that he
didn't do any that this producerhadn't done anything wrong. And
when you asked this lawyer if hefelt guilty defending this
producer, he just smiled. So Iwant to know what you do in
(30:19):
moments like these when youfeel, you know, helpless, and
how can you convince yourreaders to also keep faith in
the system?
Manasi Chaudhari (30:27):
So yeah, this was quite a quite early in my
career. I was exposed to this,so it was quite an eye opener on
how the legal system can beabused by skilled lawyers who
are using their talent or to,you know, represent their
client, which is their job, butit's just that the client may
happen to be on the wrong sideof the law, right? So I would
(30:48):
advise listeners to number onesee knowing your legal rights is
like health insurance. So evenin any kind of a medical issue,
it's always best to take actionas soon as it arises, you
diagnose it, and then you starttaking action and steps, rather
than allowing it to grow biggerand bigger and bigger. When it
becomes, you know, the remedybecomes even more challenging,
(31:10):
right? So, in the same way, Iwould advise all readers to the
minute there you know that thereis some kind of a legal issue
cropping up, take action as soonas possible and try to nip it in
the bud, because the stitch intime saves nine, as they say, so
it's faster to do that. Numberone, so you know timely action,
and action at the as soon aspossible is important. Number
(31:35):
two, while you have cases likethis, you also have cases where,
you know, women have been givenjustice, not just women, but the
right person deserving has beengiven justice. So there are
several examples of that aswell. Even in our day to day
lives, we've just seen thatrecently, the Supreme Court has
declared maternity right as aconstitutional right, which
(31:55):
elevates it to a very highlevel, and not just a legal
right. So that way, you know, wedo have a lot of judgments in
courts coming out in favor ofwomen, which I've also given
examples of in the book, to makesure that, you know, nobody
feels kind of a disillusion,that what all cynical, that
there is no point of evenapproaching the legal system
(32:17):
because it's not going to helpme. Okay, so don't lose heart
because it happened this. See,abuse of system happens in every
space of life, not just law. Sodon't take that example as a as
an example of the entire legalsystem. And number three, always
know what you are. Kind of justprepare yourself, you know, know
(32:37):
what you are going in for. AndI've given enough examples of
this in the book as well thatwhat kind of costs can you
expect? What kind of timelinescan you expect so that you are
mentally prepared and you canyou know it doesn't come as a
shock to you, because you willalready be dealing with the
burden of whatever it is thathappened, and you don't need
this additional uncertainty inyour life. So have that plan for
(33:01):
you and always weigh the costsand you know the pros and cons
of both sides of the table, andtake that action which is best
suited for your circumstances.
Tara Khandelwal (33:11):
I definitely think the book provides so much
knowledge, and knowledge ispower. As a reader, I felt a lot
more empowered going throughyour book and know that, you
know, in all of these differentsituations, at least there's
some sort of a guide book towhich I can turn to because, you
know, put things on the internetor even chat GPT, just so much
(33:32):
jargon that it is so hard towade through that. And I think
the conversational and theaccessible tone was really,
really missing. So I think yourbook plugs that gap very well. I
really like the workplaceharassment section as well,
because we've all seen the metoomovement happen, and some men
were convicted, but so manyothers just got away. And then
(33:58):
you talk about the Porsche act,and I like the way that you
define what is your workplace,which is not just your desk, but
also the recreation space andeven the office transport, which
I honestly did not know. Thisyou've put also a table where
you describe, you know, thedifference between a friendly
comment and an unfriendlycomment, which, again, I found
(34:19):
very, very helpful, becausethese are things you know one
doesn't know. So for example,you said friendly is somebody
saying you have a great smile,but unfriendly is someone
saying, I love your lips. So canyou tell our listeners what
other examples like this? Thereare there?
Manasi Chaudhari (34:35):
Yeah. So there's a fine line right
between being friendly andbetween overstepping and coming
off, as, you know, sexualharassment. So yeah, the example
you gave, or somebody, you know,complimenting, say, somebody
compliments you about youroutfit, that, hey, I really love
the outfit that you're wearing.
Whereas, you know, someonesaying that, Oh, you're looking
very sexy in this. Or this isreally body hugging. It's
(34:58):
showing you. Or verbs or orsomeone asking you about your
sex life or private life, whichis absolutely a no go, and you
will be shocked at how commonthese are in office settings
where people are not aware orare not sensitized enough. There
are even instances where youknow you have zoom calls, right,
and if it's a one on one callbetween a male superior a female
(35:20):
subordinate, having herinsisting that she switch on her
camera, or, you know, insistingthat she adjust the angle, or
trying to, you know, call herlate at night, or calling a, you
know, female subordinate to youroffice in very, very suspicious
kind of circumstances, right?
(35:42):
When the rest of the officepeople have left, or it's kind
of like late at night. So theseare all things which they a male
superior has called a femalesubordinate to their office at
2pm in the afternoon. It's fine,even if it's just a one on one,
but the same thing, if ithappens at 839, when everybody
else has gone home kind ofcreates a suspicious setting if
(36:04):
there is an intention of sexualharassment. So it can often be,
you know, the same situation,but different circumstances can
change it into sexual harassmentif somebody has that intention.
Okay,
Tara Khandelwal (36:19):
that makes sense. I definitely do think
that you know, the fact thatsexual harassment laws are
gendered is also a problem, eventhough, because they always
assumed the female is a victim.
But the numbers show you knowthat, especially for little boys
and things like that, there's alot of stuff that goes on, which
I think even boys needprotection on
Manasi Chaudhari (36:39):
young boys are definitely protected against
sexual harassment under the popso which is, you know,
protection of children againstsexual offenses act. So I have
referenced that in my book in acouple of places. So yeah, young
boys are protected. Young girlsand women are protected. The
only category that's notprotected is men, like grown up
(36:59):
men, adult men, and even, yeah,I think that is the category
that is missing. But yet, thelaws are always that for poxo,
it can be the perpetrator, canbe anybody. It can be a man or a
woman. And for sexualharassment, it is always a man
to women. Okay,
Tara Khandelwal (37:15):
now we come to the last section, which is a
rapid fire round. So I'll beasking you a bunch of questions,
and you can reply in one word orone sentence, the first step
every woman should take in acrisis situation gather
evidence, super important, oneor two things about the justice
system that everyone shouldabsolutely know.
Manasi Chaudhari (37:35):
It is slow, but it can work towards the end,
so just hang in there and havepatience. Difference between fir
and police complaint. Policecomplaint is what you narrate.
Fir is when the police doespreliminary investigation based
on your complaint and thenregisters a report so a police
complaint can be taken back, andif I are Once registered, you
(37:56):
have to go to court to get itcanceled. The best legal case
portrayal in a movie, accordingto you, this is a tough one.
Actually, there was an excellentSouth Indian movie called port.
It's a Telugu movie. I'm sure itwill be remade in Bollywood
soon, and it is an excellentportrayal of actually, over
here, there is a young teenagecouple who love each other, and
(38:20):
then the girl's parents findout, and then they file a false
rape case against the boy. So,you know, they have really
portrayed how the dynamics work.
And ultimately, of course, it'sa movie, justice does prevail.
So I would recommend everyone towatch this movie.
Tara Khandelwal (38:36):
Actually, that's also another topic that's
very interesting. You know,because these false cases that
are being registered and somewomen also abusing that law.
Obviously, that number is very,very tiny, but this movie sounds
quite interesting. Books, apartfrom yours that you think
listeners should read to knowmore about the legal system,
Manasi Chaudhari (38:53):
about the legal system, this is very
tricky. Honestly, I have notread any book about the they're
all quite complex, or they arevery, very academic. So I'm yet
to come across a book like afun, easy to read book about the
legal system. That's why let meknow. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (39:14):
and your favorite books that you've read
in the last year?
Manasi Chaudhari (39:17):
I love certain African authors. I may be bad at
pronouncing their names. Mysister the serial killer, is one
of my favorite books. Then Ieven love a lot of Sophie
Kinsella. I love her books. Theyare really fun to read. So I
usually read very light readbooks. Another book that I read,
it's a self help book. It'scalled happiness Express. It's
(39:39):
by two Art of Living Masters. SoI found that quite helpful, very
easy, like, you know, it justmakes things very, very easy to
understand. On how do you liveyour life? So, yeah, these three
books I would I really enjoyed,and what's next for you. What's
next? I never plan my I neverplan things in life. I let life
happen to me. So let's see whatlife has in plan next.
Tara Khandelwal (40:03):
Hey, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for
this chat. It was veryinteresting. I certainly learned
a lot, and I hope that anyonewho's listening in has also
gained some insights that couldhelp them in the future. And
definitely, the book is a veryeasy read. You don't have to
read it in one go. You canalways flip through it. So
Manasi Chaudhari (40:23):
thank you.
Thank you, Tara, this waswonderful.
Tara Khandelwal (40:26):
Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books
and Beyond with
Michelle D'costa (40:29):
bound. This podcast is created by bound, a
company that helps you growthrough stories. Find us at
bound India on all social mediaplatforms.
Tara Khandelwal (40:38):
Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia, you.
Foreign Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound
I'm Tara Khandelwal and I'mMichelle d'cota, in this
podcast, we talk to India'sfinest
Michelle D'costa (00:10):
authors and uncover the stories behind the
best written book
Tara Khandelwal (00:14):
and dissect how these books shape our lives and
worldviews today. So let's divein. What do you do when you are
in a public place and someonecat calls you? Or what do you do
when your office is planning tofire someone who just had a baby
I have with me here today. MansiChaudhary. She's the author of
legally yours, a woman's guideto her legal rights, and the
(00:36):
title says it all. She'stransforming how women in India
access and understand theirlegal rights. And I picked up
this book because I wanted todiscuss some of these topics and
use this podcast also as an ininto understanding how to deal
with these very unfortunateeveryday realities ranging all
the way from harassment todomestic violence, cyber
(00:56):
bullying, workplace laws,marriage and also, I didn't know
India has 900 laws. But not toworry, because it's a very easy
book to flip through. Andhonestly, when reading this
book, it just brought so muchmore to light. How many things
women have to keep in mind inIndia, and how much we go
through. And I have with me, theauthor today. So let's get into
(01:20):
it. Welcome. Mansi,
Manasi Chaudhari (01:21):
Hi Tara, thank you so much. Excited to have
this conversation with you, andthanks for the wonderful
introduction.
Tara Khandelwal (01:28):
So it was very interesting, because in the
intro of the book, you said thatyou'd want to be writing this
book for a while, but you had acatalyst, like we all have
catalysts to get us to do thethings we want to for a while,
which was a car accident thatactually had resulted in a very
terrifying encounter with twomen. So can you give our
listeners a little more contextinto what happened about that
(01:50):
with the complaint you file, andwhy was that the catalyst that
made you want to write thisbook?
Manasi Chaudhari (01:55):
So what happened is, I mean, I always
had an idea, since I was in lawschool, that I want to do
something for women where theyunderstand their rights. And
basically, I was driving homefrom work one day in my city,
Hyderabad, and it was late atnight, around 10pm and my car
bumped into another car right infront, and it was the, you know,
(02:16):
it was the tiniest bump ever.
But immediately these two men,who are driving extremely rash,
I mean, they would have almost,you know, hit me off the road if
I hadn't swerved at the righttime. So they got off the car,
and then they started banging onmy doors. They were in extreme
rage. They started trying toopen my door, and unluckily, it
(02:37):
was locked. They broke my sideview mirrors. They were showing
me the middle finger, and, youknow, they just went ballistic.
I was very scared and shocked. Itried to reason with them. We
got a traffic signal, so I triedto tell them that, let's go to
the side, let's park to theside, and we can talk. But they
were not ready to listen toanything. I quickly took out my
(02:58):
phone and took a Num, a pictureof the car's number plate. Now
this picture helped me take allthe next steps that I could and
I could remember to take thispicture, because, as a lawyer,
your mind automatically startsthinking about, how do you
gather proof and evidence? Andthat is why, even in this moment
of crisis, I could, you know,take that action. Now, after
(03:20):
this, I was very scared of myfor my safety. I somehow managed
to get home safe, and everythingwas fine, but I was furious
because, you know, I couldn'tbelieve that these men thought
that they could just behavehowever they want and get away
with it, right? Because that'snot the way. And if I don't take
any action against them, they'regoing to think that it's okay,
(03:40):
they can do this again and theycan get away with it. So even
though my family was not very,you know, very comfortable with
the idea of me filing acomplaint, because obviously in
Indian households, we do getscared, right, that what? What
if there's a retaliation fromthe other side, and what if
things get worse? But I thoughtthat as a lawyer, if I don't do
this, then I'm doing injusticeto my profession as well,
(04:02):
because, you know, that's theleast I can do. So the next day,
I wrote a police complaint. Iwent to the police station, and
I was quite intimidated, becausethis was my first time walking
into a police station, butbecause I knew my rights, and
because I had studied about whatthe police should do, watch what
are the next steps that theysupposed to take? And I was
aware about all these things. Iwas able to take that step of
(04:24):
going to the police station, andI went from a very informed
place. So they took my complaintquite seriously. And they
immediately, you know, gave thegave a call to the the two
people they found through thenumber plate, they found the
license, they found the name,etc, and they call them to the
police station on another dayto, you know, talk and
(04:45):
apologize. It's like, I mean,basically it was up to me, then
what I would want to, whether Iwould want to pursue the
complaint further or not, whichI did not want to, because the
point was to just make themrealize that there are
consequences. So this incident.
Made me realize how scary it canbe for any woman to walk into a
police station, which is thefirst step to realizing your
(05:07):
rights. And that is why Ithought, you know, it's
important to have this, youknow, a resource which helps
every woman to understand herrights, but from a very
simplified point of
Tara Khandelwal (05:17):
view, yeah, and this is already work that you're
doing with your law firm at pinklegal. But you know, this
incident reminds me also of anincident that happened to me. So
when I was first learning todrive, I there was a little bit
of a bump or something withanother car, which is again,
full of these young boys, andthey got really angry, and they
(05:38):
said that we're coming to yourhouse and we're going to meet
your father and everything. So Isaid, Okay, come what is my
father going to do? But I thinkthese kind of incidents happen
sort of to us all, and we justnever end up doing anything
about them like I think all ofus have gone through so, you
know, so many things. And I haveto admit, I didn't, I didn't
(06:00):
know some of the basics in yourbook. You know, even things like
the sexual harassment laws arenot gender neutral, they're
after in a way that the victimis female, which I also found
very interesting. And then youalso said that a lot of these
laws reek of colonial hangover.
So can you give some examples ofthat?
Manasi Chaudhari (06:19):
Sure. And first, I want to start off by
saying that you know, don't feelbad that you did not know about
these basic laws, because it'snot your fault or anybody else's
fault. It's the fault of thesystem, right? Because laws are
so complicated that nobody canunderstand them unless you take
a five year law degree. So don'tworry about that at all. And
about the colonial hangover CRCriminal Code, which was the
(06:43):
Indian Penal Code, and, youknow, lot of other laws. They
were drafted by the British,which was meant for suiting
them, as per, you know, whattheir idea of laws is. And
today, if you see the BNS, whichwas just, you know, the IPC has
now become the Bharatiyasanhita, and it's more or less
the same IPC, but just thesection numbers changed, and a
(07:07):
few minor changes here andthere, but we haven't majorly
revolved the law. It's not keptup with the times, and the
criminal law does not haveenough provisions to, you know,
keep up with new, new, emergingforms of crime, like cyber
crime, cyber bullying, onlinethreats, death and rape threats,
(07:29):
because these are also veryimportant forms of crime. It's
as good as committing a crimebecause you're putting that
person in the fear of real, youknow, real threat to their
safety and life, right? Butthere is no particular section
dedicated to these because theyare old laws. And similarly, we
had section 377, which was, youknow, which used to decrease,
(07:49):
which was to criminalizehomosexuality, which has now
been read down by the SupremeCourt. So until and unless there
is either the Supreme Courtintervenes and change the law,
or there is a movement likeNirbhaya, you know, which really
puts pressure on the governmentto the parliament to amend the
laws. There has not been muchchange, and that is why most of
(08:10):
the laws still reap of acolonial hangover.
Tara Khandelwal (08:13):
And I can imagine that it's especially
problematic in something likecyber bullying. And actually
really like that section in yourbook, because it is a fairly new
thing in India, and I washonestly very scared to read
about the, you know, voyeurismthat happens, or this concept of
sextortion. So, you know, whatare these numbers on cybercrime
right now in India? And what canwomen do if they're in this
Manasi Chaudhari (08:33):
situation? So honestly, I think we won't be
having, I mean, even if you dogo to any study or survey, it
won't reflect the real numbers,right? Because those are only
the reported numbers. But we allknow that most of these, you
know, cyber crimes, they gounreported. So you know, it is
quite rampant. I'm sure, if yousit with a group of five
girlfriends, at least two out offive would have experienced some
(08:56):
form of cyber crime or cyberbullying. Would have been a
victim to that. And in the bookalso have given easy, actionable
steps in day to day life fordifferent types of cyber crimes.
So there isn't a one size fitsall approach, I would say, but
depends on the type of cybercrime, for example, if it's
something like trolling orsomething like, you know,
somebody sending you explicitcontent in your DMS. So there
(09:20):
are ways that you can handlethis, from your phone itself,
right, whether you block them,whether you take screenshots of
the evidence, whether you reportthem, and you also report them
with the platform. But if it issomething like sextortion or
something like threatening toleak your private photos and
videos, which you would haveshared with somebody with
(09:42):
privacy and confidentiality, butnow things have gone bad, and
they're trying to use thisagainst you. This requires more
serious immediate action, likefiling a police complaint,
because this would you will notbe able to handle just by, you
know, making some changing somesettings on your phone, right?
So there. Be differentapproaches that you take for
(10:02):
different kinds of cyber crime,and depending on the intensity
of the issue, you can decideyour approach. And I'm sure if
you you know,
Tara Khandelwal (10:10):
how do you file a police complaint?
Manasi Chaudhari (10:13):
Okay, very interesting and very easy. So
filing a police complaint isjust like if you remember, if
you know when in school, ifsomebody did something to you,
you would go up to the teacherand tell her, right, that
teacher, this is what hashappened to me. You would go
narrate the facts to her. Sopolice complaint is also just
that. It is a narration of thefacts or and of the incident
(10:36):
that has happened to you. But ifyou are filing it in the police
station, obviously you willwrite it down, and then you will
give it to the police, and theywill make a note of it. You can
also file a complaint online, soseveral police stations, or
several cities, metropolitancities now have an online
mechanism through which you canregister some of the police. You
(10:56):
know, jurisdictions have apps,so they have their own app
through which you can register.
You can also give a phone callto the police station and tell
them, and then they will tellyou that, okay, you come down,
or we will come to you and takeyour police complaint. But I
would suggest the best way to doit is still to go to the police
station, because that's the wayyou get the fastest traction.
And you know, because you areright there in front of them. So
(11:18):
they have to take yourcomplaint, and they have to take
action upon it, rather thansomething filed online, which
they may see today or tomorrowor day after, right? So always,
if possible, file a policecomplaint in the police
Tara Khandelwal (11:32):
station. That's quite helpful. So wanted to know
a little bit also about you. Youknow your background, and you
know, because I know that youknow, you have a full you're a
full time lawyer, you have a lawfirm, you have a un recognized
portal called Pink legal which,through which you educate women
about their legal rights, andthen you got this book deal. So
(11:54):
I want to know, you know, howdid you manage your time between
doing all of this and thenwriting the book and then
finally getting it published.
What was your journey?
Manasi Chaudhari (12:03):
I don't know this is very strange, but off
late, many people have beenasking me about, how did you
manage your time, a questionthat I was never asked before as
much so I think, I mean, I don'tknow, there's no specific
formula or method that I use toor hack, you know, to manage my
time or do multiple things isjust that I feel that these are
(12:24):
things that are very close to myheart. I'm passionate about
them, whether it's my corporatework with my law firm, Newman,
or whether it is my, you know,Portal, my pink legal which is,
you know, the first platform foreducating women about their
legal rights. So this is both ofthese I'm very passionate about,
and that is why it never feelslike work and I'm able to take
(12:46):
time out outside of my normalwork hours, whether it's
weekends or late nights,especially when I was writing
the book. I was writing italongside my studies. So I got
the book offer while I was atwhile I just moved to Oxford for
my masters. So while I waspursuing my course, towards the
end of it, is when I startedwriting the book. So I would
(13:08):
always try to take out time inpockets. So say, for example,
I've blocked this weekend thatI'm going to write this
particular chapter. So I wouldfocus on that, rather than
looking at the entire book as awhole and getting overwhelmed.
What about the publishing partof it? So the publishing part of
it was an interesting journey. Iso Ridhima, my editor at Harper,
(13:30):
I think she knew about pinklegal, and she discovered it,
and she found it helpful, andshe felt that it's important for
women in India to have a bookwhich explains all their rights
in a simple way. And there is nobook like that. So she reached
out one day, I think she slidinto my DMs on Instagram, if I
remember correctly, or whetherit was an email, and she reached
(13:51):
out, and, you know, just floatedthe idea, and then we got
talking, and I loved the idea aswell, so I jumped on it, and
that's how, you know, the bookwas born.
Tara Khandelwal (14:02):
That's really cool. I love it when editors
also commission books. And youknow, that's happening more and
more. One thing I really likedin the book is how accessible
you made it. So used a lot ofpop culture examples. So you
know, there are sections in thebook called hashtag movie time
and hashtag real to real whereyou use Bollywood movies to
(14:22):
illustrate your point. So forexample, in the first chapter,
you use a very controversialmovie, Kabir Singh as an
example, and you ask whetherKabir kissing Preethi without
her consent the very first timethey meet is harassment or not.
And then you also talk about themovie Ranjana, where they
glorified stalking as romance.
It's crazy how movies can alsoget it wrong. So what is your
(14:45):
what was the idea behindincluding these sections, and
what is your answer to thesequestions that you put out
Manasi Chaudhari (14:54):
there? So the idea behind including these
sections is because Ipersonally, I draw. Lot of
examples from movies, and I findthem very interesting. They're a
great reflection of society. AndI think in India in general, we
have a culture where we wereally idolize what we see on
screen, right? So that's why Ithought it's important to bring
in those examples, becausepeople will be able to relate to
(15:17):
that and then start thinkingthat whether this is actually a
violation of legal rights. Italso makes it interesting fun,
because law is very heavy, and Iwanted the book to be very easy
to read, so it gives good breaksin the middle I feel my answer
to this question. So forobviously, you know,
technically, as a lawyer, if Ihave to speak, obviously it if
(15:40):
you kiss somebody without theirconsent, it is sexual harassment
right now that consent, and inthe consent section, I've also
spoken about how do you giveconsent or withdraw consent? It
need not always be spoken as yesor no. It can also be expressed
through body language, throughgestures. It can be something
that can be, you know, nonverbal, right? Like you help the
(16:04):
other person understand. Sosupposing, in the scene, pretty
had given an indication that shewas okay with it without
expressly saying yes, then itwould not be a violation. So
these are, you know, situationsthat do happen in day to day
life also, and it's somethingthat we need to understand that
it's not always yes or no.
Sometimes it can be that youhave to read between the lines
(16:24):
and understand whether thatperson is actually okay with it
or not. And yeah. And Ranjana,of course, not just Ranjana.
Many movies we see, in fact,earlier, there was this trend
right where they would showstalking as the ultimate way of
professing your love, and thenthe hero, and by the end of the
movie, she falls for you. Andthen that's how I think many
stalkers were also born inIndia. I liked
Tara Khandelwal (16:47):
how you were very comprehensive. You put
sections that I would never evenhave thought of. So, for
example, you have a wholesection on live in
relationships, which sort ofsomething. You know, I have a
lot of friends who are in them,but I didn't even know that
there any laws around them. Andyou say the law is so vague, you
say that you know the live inrelationships are technically
(17:09):
legal. So what does this mean?
And you'd put some smart girlstips to protecting oneself when
you're in a live inrelationship. And I'll be honest
with you, the way that thingsare structured in India, I've
always been hesitant to get intothis arrangement myself because
of these reasons. So, yeah, canyou tell our listeners a little
bit more about this section?
Manasi Chaudhari (17:28):
Yeah, I think live in relationships is very
important today, because theyare quite you know, it's a
modern, contemporary way thatpeople are exploring, right? If
they choose not to get marriedor like a trial period to before
you get married, and it'simportant for them, especially
for women, to know their laws.
Because I have seen many womenof slightly older generations
(17:49):
who have been in livingrelationships for many years,
almost like a decade or two.
I've also given this example inthe book, and you know, they
have been in livingrelationships. They've had
children out of the livingrelationship, but because it was
not made official, and becausethere were certain other
factors, one day, the man justgot up and left, and this woman
(18:12):
was, you know, just suddenly,overnight, she was without an
income, without a protectedhome, and with the, you know,
mother of two children, with nounderstanding of how she is
supposed to take care of herselfand her children going forward
this, apart from, of course, theemotional, you know, heartbreak
and the, you know, the mentaltrauma that she would have
(18:32):
faced, right? So, because thelaw, there is no specific law in
India about livingrelationships. It comes from
supreme court judgments, and thejudgments are limited to
declaring that okay, it islegal, it is valid if you
qualify certain XYZ factors,which is that you have to be
adults, consenting you not noneof you should be already
married, etc, right? But whatabout beyond that? Now, once you
(18:56):
are in a living relationship,what are your rights as a woman
or as a partner, you know,towards, say, property or
towards security in therelationship, towards, if you
have children, out of the livingrelationship. So it's important
for women to know this and toget into a living relationship
when they while they securethemselves. So if the law does
not secure you, or if the lawdoes not protect you,
(19:18):
explicitly, if there areloopholes, be aware about those
loopholes and understand, howcan you work around them, and
how can you secure yourselfwithout needing the law to
protect you when it doesn'texist. So that is why I put in
the Smart Girls Guide, so thatevery woman can make that
choice, she can understand, andthen she can get into a
relationship protecting herself.
What are some of the tips? Someof the tips are obviously that
(19:42):
you know number one is you haveto know what you're getting
into, right? And that there isno unlike marriage, where you
have divorce, which you know forwhich you have to go to court,
and therefore you have certainsecurity in a marriage, in a
living relationship today youare in a relationship tomorrow,
either one of you can. Justdecide to walk out, and there is
no security, and there is no lawthat will come to stop that or
(20:03):
protect you from that breakup.
So, number one, know the kind ofnature of living relationships.
Number two, secure yourselffinancially, of course, because
you know whether you are earningor whether you are dependent on
your partner, you have to makesure that you have certain
because unlike a divorce, wherea marriage is over, the court
(20:26):
will decide, based on thecircumstances, which spouse will
get alimony, which spouse willget maintenance, how will the
assets and properties be dividedin a living relationship? There
is nothing. There is no court.
It is based on whatever theunderstanding between the
parties is. So because you don'thave the security. Make sure
that either, if you are earning,then you have your you know you
are in control of your finances.
(20:47):
You have enough set aside foryour emergency fund and for
anything else, right, for yourinvestments, lifestyle, et
cetera. And if you arefinancially dependent on your
health, on your living partner,make sure that there is
something in your name, whetherit is, it can be in the form of
a FD, or it can be in the formof, if you both are living in a
house for a long time, then ifyou own the house, both of your
(21:08):
names, or, you know, if it's alease, then both of your names
should be on the lease so thattomorrow, you know, one cannot
just get up and throw you out.
Um, so small things like this,which can help you feel more
secure. Then number three is,obviously, this is a very long
term thing, but you know,property and inheritance. So in
marriage, once you are married,each spouse automatically
(21:29):
becomes the heir to the otherspouse, right? So in case
something happens, one of thespouses passes away, the
property goes to, I mean, thewife or the husband will be one
of the heirs. But in a livingrelationship, there is no law
like that, so it is a gray area.
So to make sure that you knowyour living partner is, you know
(21:51):
is an air, you can have simplethings like a will or add them
to your bank account or add themto your policies as a nominee or
an air. And these small tips canhelp you to secure yourself in a
living
Tara Khandelwal (22:03):
relationship.
That makes sense, because itdoesn't afford all the
legalities of marriage,basically, so you have to work
around that. I also was verysurprised by, you know, some,
and I'm always surprised by someof the laws in India that still
need to change, like, forexample, the whole marital rape
not being illegal in India. Findthat so ridiculous. But one
thing I love is that you don'tneed anyone except your doctor's
(22:26):
permission to get an abortion,especially with the way that the
things in the West are going. Sowhat, according to you, are some
laws in India that still
Manasi Chaudhari (22:35):
need to change. I think obviously
marital rape would be number oneon the list, because that's,
again, a colonial hangover. TheBritish came, they enacted this
law. They went to their country,and it doesn't exist anymore
there, but we are still carryingforward that legacy of, you
know, marital rape, not beingraped, and it has been
questioned in the courts, butthey haven't taken action
(22:56):
against it, and they haven'treally taken any substantial
point number two, I think wherethe laws really need to change
or catch up with the times iswhen it comes to cyber bullying
and harassment. So as I wasmentioning earlier, you know,
death and rape threats havebecome extremely commonplace,
and it's almost like when yougive, you know, regular galleys
earlier, that would be a way ofexpressing your anger at
(23:19):
somebody, and today's becomedeath and rape threats, to the
extent that even you know ViratKohli is new, like small toddler
girl was given rape threats whenhe lost a match. So it's gone to
a new level of disgusting, andbecause there is no law about
this, which specifically takesquick action against anybody who
(23:42):
even says that, you know, daresto say that I will do so and so,
or, you know, explicit peopleare just going around, giving,
distributing these as if they'resweets, right? So this is
something where the Lord reallyneeds to step in and take
stringent, immediate action,track the person's IP, block
(24:02):
them immediately, becausenowadays, you have to sign up on
social media accounts throughverification. You can't just
make a random account, so it'seasier to track them. And you
know, so this is another law,which I think really needs to
change. Yeah, these two would bethe top on my list. Of course,
there are many others, but I'llnot go into all of them. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (24:23):
one thing I liked also about the book, I
found interesting is the foodfor thought sections, because
you not only look at the lawsvery practically, but as I
mentioned before, the book iswritten like a friend. So you
have these food for thoughts,you have tips, you have quizzes,
and the food for thought aresome very thought provoking
questions to readers, which kindof makes one think about the
(24:45):
biases that already exist inIndia. So on the one hand, you
know for women, we have allthese laws that are in place to
protect us, but these laws arenot getting enacted because of
the patriarchal norms that weare living under. So for
example, you had given asituation where. One of your
clients was being harassed by a70 year old man, but her family
did not want her to do anythingabout it. Because of this is
(25:07):
that, though you know all ofthose things, and I was actually
I found it very interesting someof the questions, because I
think even I have sort of beenprivy to some of them. You know,
you ask, Why are women the onlyones who change their surnames
after marriage. If it's actuallyabout feeling more like a part
of the family, then the husbandshould also take the wife's
name. And I completely agree,because even when I got married
(25:30):
and I was registering mycertificate, the first question
everybody asked me was, Oh, areyou going to change your name?
How come you're not changingyour name, which I found really
funny. And you know, there'salso this part in the money
matters chapter where you ask,isn't it highly patriarchal that
once a girl gets married, she'sconsidered belonging to another
family and not her parents legalheir? I think these are such
(25:53):
pertinent questions that you'veincluded. I
Manasi Chaudhari (25:55):
didn't want legally, yours to just be a book
about understanding the lawslike a textbook, but something
that readers can actually engagewith and see how laws are
playing a role in our day to daylives, right, whether it is your
surname or money illegal heirsor even something as simple as
maternity break and, you know,workplace. So yeah, there are
(26:16):
many aspects of life where lawshave an interplay, and I wanted
readers to really start thinkingabout
Tara Khandelwal (26:21):
it. So how did the structure of the book come
to you? Obviously, you know, youhave these different sections
where you cover differenttopics, like domestic violence,
cyber bullying, but these kindof things that we just
mentioned, the quizzes, youknow, the tips, the food for
thought sections, the Bollywoodsections. How did all of that
come together. How did yougamify the book? Almost feels
(26:43):
like it's so accessible and it'sgamified in a way to make us
understand what our legal rightsand how to enact
Manasi Chaudhari (26:49):
them. I love that. I love the idea that it's
gamified because, you know,yeah, it puts a different
perspective to the book. So Iwent about initially identifying
what are the broad areas, youknow, in which women need to
understand their rights. Sowhether it's at home, starts
from domestic violence or familymatters, you know, like
(27:12):
marriage, divorce, alimony ormoney matters was another
important thing, because I thinkit's very important for women to
be financially independent andalso understand what the
inheritance rights are. Thenthere is the entire workplace
section, where you know you havesexual harassment at workplace,
or other related laws likematernity break and equal pay.
(27:34):
Then there's reproductiverights, where you have abortion,
adoption, surrogacy, you know,different areas so and of
course, then you have yoursexual harassment and then cyber
bullying. So I went about firstmapping what are the various
buckets under which women needto understand their rights. And
then within each bucket, whatare the various topics, and how
(27:56):
do I break it up to make it moreeasy and easily, easily
readable. Then, of course, comesyour legal remedies, because
it's not important and enough tojust understand what the law
says, until and unless you knowwhat action you can take, and
how can you stand up foryourself? So there comes your,
you know, police complaints andyour information about courts.
(28:18):
What can you expect? How much?
How do you go to a lawyer? Whatpiece can you expect? Because
these are very practicalquestions that anyone would get
right. Say you want to file acase, you would obviously want
to know, where can I file wherecan I find a good lawyer? How
much will it cost me? How muchtime will it take me? So I just
tried to get into the mind andshoes of any regular, ordinary
woman who would want to stand upfor her rights, who has probably
(28:40):
faced something in her life, orwho just wants to understand
what her rights are so that shecan be aware and vigilant. You
know, some of my female friendsand family members have also
been very helpful in helping meunderstand what are the pain
points that women face, and howdo I address those? And of
course, the inputs of Ridhima,my editor, they were invaluable,
(29:00):
because she also worked alongwith me to kind of, you know,
build a structure to tell mewhere I can add more, explain
more. Because she's alsosomebody who genuinely wanted to
understand these rights. And shehad her own journey along with
the book, where she read many ofthese chapters, and for the
first time, she was also exposedto that kind of in depth, you
(29:22):
know, knowledge about rights invarious areas, right? So she,
herself, was a great candidateto tell me that. Okay, can you
explain this more? Can you, youknow, go more into details in
this chapter, etc?
Tara Khandelwal (29:36):
So I want to come back to, you know, this
point about that we have a lotof laws in our favor, clearly
for women, but that's just onpaper and in real life. You
know, they're barely everexecuted or they can be
manipulated. And you also givean example in the book where you
talk about a case where a seniorlawyer you were working with was
arguing a case for a rapeaccused producer, and he was
(29:59):
trying to get. This producer outon bail, and internally, you had
a hunch of the producer wasguilty, but the lawyer was so
skilled that he managed toconvince the court that he
didn't do any that this producerhadn't done anything wrong. And
when you asked this lawyer if hefelt guilty defending this
producer, he just smiled. So Iwant to know what you do in
(30:19):
moments like these when youfeel, you know, helpless, and
how can you convince yourreaders to also keep faith in
the system?
Manasi Chaudhari (30:27):
So yeah, this was quite a quite early in my
career. I was exposed to this,so it was quite an eye opener on
how the legal system can beabused by skilled lawyers who
are using their talent or to,you know, represent their
client, which is their job, butit's just that the client may
happen to be on the wrong sideof the law, right? So I would
(30:48):
advise listeners to number onesee knowing your legal rights is
like health insurance. So evenin any kind of a medical issue,
it's always best to take actionas soon as it arises, you
diagnose it, and then you starttaking action and steps, rather
than allowing it to grow biggerand bigger and bigger. When it
becomes, you know, the remedybecomes even more challenging,
(31:10):
right? So, in the same way, Iwould advise all readers to the
minute there you know that thereis some kind of a legal issue
cropping up, take action as soonas possible and try to nip it in
the bud, because the stitch intime saves nine, as they say, so
it's faster to do that. Numberone, so you know timely action,
and action at the as soon aspossible is important. Number
(31:35):
two, while you have cases likethis, you also have cases where,
you know, women have been givenjustice, not just women, but the
right person deserving has beengiven justice. So there are
several examples of that aswell. Even in our day to day
lives, we've just seen thatrecently, the Supreme Court has
declared maternity right as aconstitutional right, which
(31:55):
elevates it to a very highlevel, and not just a legal
right. So that way, you know, wedo have a lot of judgments in
courts coming out in favor ofwomen, which I've also given
examples of in the book, to makesure that, you know, nobody
feels kind of a disillusion,that what all cynical, that
there is no point of evenapproaching the legal system
(32:17):
because it's not going to helpme. Okay, so don't lose heart
because it happened this. See,abuse of system happens in every
space of life, not just law. Sodon't take that example as a as
an example of the entire legalsystem. And number three, always
know what you are. Kind of justprepare yourself, you know, know
(32:37):
what you are going in for. AndI've given enough examples of
this in the book as well thatwhat kind of costs can you
expect? What kind of timelinescan you expect so that you are
mentally prepared and you canyou know it doesn't come as a
shock to you, because you willalready be dealing with the
burden of whatever it is thathappened, and you don't need
this additional uncertainty inyour life. So have that plan for
(33:01):
you and always weigh the costsand you know the pros and cons
of both sides of the table, andtake that action which is best
suited for your circumstances.
Tara Khandelwal (33:11):
I definitely think the book provides so much
knowledge, and knowledge ispower. As a reader, I felt a lot
more empowered going throughyour book and know that, you
know, in all of these differentsituations, at least there's
some sort of a guide book towhich I can turn to because, you
know, put things on the internetor even chat GPT, just so much
(33:32):
jargon that it is so hard towade through that. And I think
the conversational and theaccessible tone was really,
really missing. So I think yourbook plugs that gap very well. I
really like the workplaceharassment section as well,
because we've all seen the metoomovement happen, and some men
were convicted, but so manyothers just got away. And then
(33:58):
you talk about the Porsche act,and I like the way that you
define what is your workplace,which is not just your desk, but
also the recreation space andeven the office transport, which
I honestly did not know. Thisyou've put also a table where
you describe, you know, thedifference between a friendly
comment and an unfriendlycomment, which, again, I found
(34:19):
very, very helpful, becausethese are things you know one
doesn't know. So for example,you said friendly is somebody
saying you have a great smile,but unfriendly is someone
saying, I love your lips. So canyou tell our listeners what
other examples like this? Thereare there?
Manasi Chaudhari (34:35):
Yeah. So there's a fine line right
between being friendly andbetween overstepping and coming
off, as, you know, sexualharassment. So yeah, the example
you gave, or somebody, you know,complimenting, say, somebody
compliments you about youroutfit, that, hey, I really love
the outfit that you're wearing.
Whereas, you know, someonesaying that, Oh, you're looking
very sexy in this. Or this isreally body hugging. It's
(34:58):
showing you. Or verbs or orsomeone asking you about your
sex life or private life, whichis absolutely a no go, and you
will be shocked at how commonthese are in office settings
where people are not aware orare not sensitized enough. There
are even instances where youknow you have zoom calls, right,
and if it's a one on one callbetween a male superior a female
(35:20):
subordinate, having herinsisting that she switch on her
camera, or, you know, insistingthat she adjust the angle, or
trying to, you know, call herlate at night, or calling a, you
know, female subordinate to youroffice in very, very suspicious
kind of circumstances, right?
(35:42):
When the rest of the officepeople have left, or it's kind
of like late at night. So theseare all things which they a male
superior has called a femalesubordinate to their office at
2pm in the afternoon. It's fine,even if it's just a one on one,
but the same thing, if ithappens at 839, when everybody
else has gone home kind ofcreates a suspicious setting if
(36:04):
there is an intention of sexualharassment. So it can often be,
you know, the same situation,but different circumstances can
change it into sexual harassmentif somebody has that intention.
Okay,
Tara Khandelwal (36:19):
that makes sense. I definitely do think
that you know, the fact thatsexual harassment laws are
gendered is also a problem, eventhough, because they always
assumed the female is a victim.
But the numbers show you knowthat, especially for little boys
and things like that, there's alot of stuff that goes on, which
I think even boys needprotection on
Manasi Chaudhari (36:39):
young boys are definitely protected against
sexual harassment under the popso which is, you know,
protection of children againstsexual offenses act. So I have
referenced that in my book in acouple of places. So yeah, young
boys are protected. Young girlsand women are protected. The
only category that's notprotected is men, like grown up
(36:59):
men, adult men, and even, yeah,I think that is the category
that is missing. But yet, thelaws are always that for poxo,
it can be the perpetrator, canbe anybody. It can be a man or a
woman. And for sexualharassment, it is always a man
to women. Okay,
Tara Khandelwal (37:15):
now we come to the last section, which is a
rapid fire round. So I'll beasking you a bunch of questions,
and you can reply in one word orone sentence, the first step
every woman should take in acrisis situation gather
evidence, super important, oneor two things about the justice
system that everyone shouldabsolutely know.
Manasi Chaudhari (37:35):
It is slow, but it can work towards the end,
so just hang in there and havepatience. Difference between fir
and police complaint. Policecomplaint is what you narrate.
Fir is when the police doespreliminary investigation based
on your complaint and thenregisters a report so a police
complaint can be taken back, andif I are Once registered, you
(37:56):
have to go to court to get itcanceled. The best legal case
portrayal in a movie, accordingto you, this is a tough one.
Actually, there was an excellentSouth Indian movie called port.
It's a Telugu movie. I'm sure itwill be remade in Bollywood
soon, and it is an excellentportrayal of actually, over
here, there is a young teenagecouple who love each other, and
(38:20):
then the girl's parents findout, and then they file a false
rape case against the boy. So,you know, they have really
portrayed how the dynamics work.
And ultimately, of course, it'sa movie, justice does prevail.
So I would recommend everyone towatch this movie.
Tara Khandelwal (38:36):
Actually, that's also another topic that's
very interesting. You know,because these false cases that
are being registered and somewomen also abusing that law.
Obviously, that number is very,very tiny, but this movie sounds
quite interesting. Books, apartfrom yours that you think
listeners should read to knowmore about the legal system,
Manasi Chaudhari (38:53):
about the legal system, this is very
tricky. Honestly, I have notread any book about the they're
all quite complex, or they arevery, very academic. So I'm yet
to come across a book like afun, easy to read book about the
legal system. That's why let meknow. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (39:14):
and your favorite books that you've read
in the last year?
Manasi Chaudhari (39:17):
I love certain African authors. I may be bad at
pronouncing their names. Mysister the serial killer, is one
of my favorite books. Then Ieven love a lot of Sophie
Kinsella. I love her books. Theyare really fun to read. So I
usually read very light readbooks. Another book that I read,
it's a self help book. It'scalled happiness Express. It's
(39:39):
by two Art of Living Masters. SoI found that quite helpful, very
easy, like, you know, it justmakes things very, very easy to
understand. On how do you liveyour life? So, yeah, these three
books I would I really enjoyed,and what's next for you. What's
next? I never plan my I neverplan things in life. I let life
happen to me. So let's see whatlife has in plan next.
Tara Khandelwal (40:03):
Hey, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for
this chat. It was veryinteresting. I certainly learned
a lot, and I hope that anyonewho's listening in has also
gained some insights that couldhelp them in the future. And
definitely, the book is a veryeasy read. You don't have to
read it in one go. You canalways flip through it. So
Manasi Chaudhari (40:23):
thank you.
Thank you, Tara, this waswonderful.
Tara Khandelwal (40:26):
Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books
and Beyond with
Michelle D'costa (40:29):
bound. This podcast is created by bound, a
company that helps you growthrough stories. Find us at
bound India on all social mediaplatforms.
Tara Khandelwal (40:38):
Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia, you.
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